What did you do today?

[PJB12]

Google says, “the ground provides a path for Excess electricity to escape.” Where does excess electricity come from? I guess if the neutral was broken or open then the hot would have no where to go but how does it get to the ground?

It seems to me that with a GFCI, a ground is not necessary and code agrees.

But anyway, I’ve got grounds now.

Google is wonky on that one! The ground provides a safe, low impedance path for any fault current to return to earth or the transformer.

I'll try to explain below. Please pardon so many words!

Fault Current Example:
Suppose that I have a motor in my air handler and the insulation on the wiring leading to the rotor windings deteriorates from age. The wire is certainly in contact with the motor frame at some point or another. When the insulation breaks down, the electrons in the wire can travel through the motor's case. The case is attached to the air handler frame. The frame to the duct work,, etc.

If the equipment is not grounded and one touches the air handler or the duct work and that person touches something else that is grounded, that person will conduct the current from the motor to earth.

If the equipment is grounded, the fault current will rush to earth. This will cause excess electrons to flow to the motor and the fuse will open or the breaker will trip.

Another example is laying on the pavement under a car with a 120-volt drill with a 3-wire cord cap. If the drill isn't properly grounded (or otherwise protected) and develops a fault, the fault current will pass through the user.

The worst cases are if the accidentally energized item is touched with the left hand and the left foot or right hand touch something grounded, the current passes through the heart. The other worst case is if one touches the energized part and the person's head touches something grounded.

For requiring neutrals in all boxes (with a few exceptions), the reason for the code change was because many new dimmers, occupancy sensor switches and similar now require a neutral. People cheated and used the equipment grounding conductor for a neutral. Now, the unbalance (neutral current) of 120 volts travels down the uninsulated ground wire. This can be a fire hazard. But more importantly- if someone touches something grounded, such as a refrigerator, and then touches something that is grounded better than the ground wire for the refrigerator (faucet, for example), that person will carry that neutral current from the dimmer switch that uses the ground wire for a neutral. (That's similar to why it is against NFPA 70 to use the grounding conductor on a clothes dryer or range or cook top that needs a neutral for a timer, light, etc.)

Possibility:
The above comments may open a Pandora's box of people disputing what I wrote & calling me unqualified or uneducated. (It happened on the crabby people DIY forum recently for a similar grounding topic.)

Since I'm not the best explainer of things, I'll be very happy to explain better, but I won't defend my position.

PS: I'm a master electrician licensed in 7 states & 2 provinces. I am a former inspector. I am an impartial witness for insurance tort cases and arbitration hearings. And I've more qualifications too boring to mention. I kinda sorta know what I'm talking about.

Paul
PS: Your wiring looks great Ron!

 

[Snoonyb]

That's baked in. They are losing a lot of their tips unless it's a hopping joint and they make lots of cash tips like a Hooters, because Men are morons.

If Trump is President, he is getting rid of taxes on tips.

Were I to use a card for purchases, the gratuity would be in cash, handed to the server.

 

[shan2themax]

Google is wonky on that one! The ground provides a safe, low impedance path for any fault current to return to earth or the transformer.

I'll try to explain below. Please pardon so many words!

Fault Current Example:
Suppose that I have a motor in my air handler and the insulation on the wiring leading to the rotor windings deteriorates from age. The wire is certainly in contact with the motor frame at some point or another. When the insulation breaks down, the electrons in the wire can travel through the motor's case. The case is attached to the air handler frame. The frame to the duct work,, etc.

If the equipment is not grounded and one touches the air handler or the duct work and that person touches something else that is grounded, that person will conduct the current from the motor to earth.

If the equipment is grounded, the fault current will rush to earth. This will cause excess electrons to flow to the motor and the fuse will open or the breaker will trip.

Another example is laying on the pavement under a car with a 120-volt drill with a 3-wire cord cap. If the drill isn't properly grounded (or otherwise protected) and develops a fault, the fault current will pass through the user.

The worst cases are if the accidentally energized item is touched with the left hand and the left foot or right hand touch something grounded, the current passes through the heart. The other worst case is if one touches the energized part and the person's head touches something grounded.

For requiring neutrals in all boxes (with a few exceptions), the reason for the code change was because many new dimmers, occupancy sensor switches and similar now require a neutral. People cheated and used the equipment grounding conductor for a neutral. Now, the unbalance (neutral current) of 120 volts travels down the uninsulated ground wire. This can be a fire hazard. But more importantly- if someone touches something grounded, such as a refrigerator, and then touches something that is grounded better than the ground wire for the refrigerator (faucet, for example), that person will carry that neutral current from the dimmer switch that uses the ground wire for a neutral. (That's similar to why it is against NFPA 70 to use the grounding conductor on a clothes dryer or range or cook top that needs a neutral for a timer, light, etc.)

Possibility:
The above comments may open a Pandora's box of people disputing what I wrote & calling me unqualified or uneducated. (It happened on the crabby people DIY forum recently for a similar grounding topic.)

Since I'm not the best explainer of things, I'll be very happy to explain better, but I won't defend my position.

PS: I'm a master electrician licensed in 7 states & 2 provinces. I am a former inspector. I am an impartial witness for insurance tort cases and arbitration hearings. And I've more qualifications too boring to mention. I kinda sorta know what I'm talking about.

Paul
PS: Your wiring looks great Ron!

I use to live in an apartment and the stove would give you a nice little electrical current when you were stirring liquids. I never notice it any other time. However, if you had a pot of water boiling for spaghetti, you got a trickle charge when stirring with a metal utensil.

 

[68bucks]

One of many reasons I don't eat fast food, however I would make an exception for Arby's. The advent of $15 an hour, now $20 in CA for unskilled entry level jobs that are meant to be nothing other than teaching kids about working and getting them experience has turned into what you talk about as a perfect example.

People started the marches for $15 in Seattle, and I said back then that they would be homeless or at the very minimum living with 4 roommates. I knew from my travels in the area that the only FF joint that could pay people that ridiculous doubling of a salary was the Seattle Ferry dock McDonalds because they have a Million people walking by every day. People get off the Ferry and go there before their walk to the Mariners or Seahawks games, they stop there on their way anywhere else... The foot traffic for every other FF joint is miniscule comparatively.

SO... The owner of the joint can either fire a whole bunch of people and keep a fully paid skeleton crew with fully paid benefits, or make everybody part time with no benefits. Ergo, needing 4 roommates to afford the bills because Mr. Landlord is going to get his from that $18 whatever the employee makes... "You got a raise of $10 more dollars an hour!!!???... Well, I will only take $8 of that starting next month"...

Everything else went up as a result, meaning that $15 plus is now LESS than they were making at $8... Tents popped up in every big City... Then enter the Alcohol and Drugs... Then enter the Crime because these people that were doing fine at $8 an hour aren't doing fine anymore and somebody has to pay...

I don't know anybody that will pay $8 for a burger unless it's a sit down joint and it actually looks like a Burger instead of what you get with FF. I look like a Caveman, so I know how to use Fire. I'm good.

So here's a question, where are all the mass FF restaurant closings? If what you say is true wouldn't they be closing left and right? I know most have started using technology like order kiosks to reduce staff. That was already in the works and really picked up during covid when nobody could get help not because or increasing wages. Very few FF joints have full time help or benefits it's almost entirely part time staff and always has been. Perhaps owners realize they will have to make a little less to keep staff. Certain new outlets want to push the notion that all these places will go belly up, and a very few have, but most raised prices and adjusted operations and are still in business.
What makes you think people were ever "doing fine" on $8 an hour? I know when I go into a FF joint, which is rarely, the majority of the staff is well past the teenage learning about work age. With unemployment at about 4-5% for years now people are taking jobs elsewhere so FF places have to pay more to get workers. I'm in Ohio not California but FF pays above minimum wage now or they can't even get people. The last few years are the only time in my life I can recall workers having the upper hand for wages and have tried to sieze the opportunity to get better wages, why is that wrong?

 

[Ron Van]

SO... The owner of the joint can either fire a whole bunch of people and keep a fully paid skeleton crew with fully paid benefits, or make everybody part time with no benefits. Ergo, needing 4 roommates to afford the bills because Mr. Landlord is going to get his from that $18 whatever the employee makes... "You got a raise of $10 more dollars an hour!!!???... Well, I will only take $8 of that starting next month"...

Everything else went up as a result, meaning that $15 plus is now LESS than they were making at $8... Tents popped up in every big City... Then enter the Alcohol and Drugs... Then enter the Crime because these people that were doing fine at $8 an hour aren't doing fine anymore and somebody has to pay...

This model works well with the New World Order. Mini communes of 4 roommates or more. People never going outside because they are on their electronics whenever they can be. Very little social interaction. Minimum wage jobs with government assistance.

Our young people are being groomed for this.

 

[Snoonyb]

And they're are in lockstep with it.

About 80yrs ago, after mouthing off to him, my dad told me, if your mouth gets you into it, your mouth better be able to get you out of it, or shut up.

 

[Spicoli43]

Were I to use a card for purchases, the gratuity would be in cash, handed to the server.

Yes. Always.

 

[Spicoli43]

So here's a question, where are all the mass FF restaurant closings? If what you say is true wouldn't they be closing left and right? I know most have started using technology like order kiosks to reduce staff. That was already in the works and really picked up during covid when nobody could get help not because or increasing wages. Very few FF joints have full time help or benefits it's almost entirely part time staff and always has been. Perhaps owners realize they will have to make a little less to keep staff. Certain new outlets want to push the notion that all these places will go belly up, and a very few have, but most raised prices and adjusted operations and are still in business.
What makes you think people were ever "doing fine" on $8 an hour? I know when I go into a FF joint, which is rarely, the majority of the staff is well past the teenage learning about work age. With unemployment at about 4-5% for years now people are taking jobs elsewhere so FF places have to pay more to get workers. I'm in Ohio not California but FF pays above minimum wage now or they can't even get people. The last few years are the only time in my life I can recall workers having the upper hand for wages and have tried to sieze the opportunity to get better wages, why is that wrong?

There have been lots of closings in CA... There have probably been the same in most states, but I mainly hear about CA from Conservative sites that like to make fun of their Governor Dictator that has destroyed the state (And might be their Presidential nominee)...

That said, you are probably right about the business model being mostly part time forever. I was full time for every FF job I had from 1990-1993. People were doing fine on $8 an hour when the rent was half what it is now. Why doesn't that make sense? Take it back to those time periods and everything else was cheaper as well, so they could afford Gas or the cable bill or whatever and maybe had 1 roommate or lived with their folks. At $4.25, I could have had an apartment with 1 roommate.

The entire point about my post is they did try to "seize" better wages with their marches that started in Seattle for $15... They mostly seized homelessness though. The marches happened and they eventually got $15, the lucky ones that kept Full time jobs... Most didn't. There's an absolute correlation to the homeless epidemic there and in every big city to the minimum wage being GIGANTIC...

Of course there was Homeless before, but it didn't magically increase by Thousands over a decade because of anything else. It's very simple economics... Raise the wages, everybody in the chain raises their prices from the Tomato farmer to the Bun maker to the Patty producer... The restaurants have to raise all their prices to pay the wages, but can't pay for Health benefits for even their most senior managers, who split for greener pastures and the cycle continues. The customers stop showing up because nobody wants to pay THAT to get THAT, hence burger King now rolling out a $5 deal for something. They wouldn't be doing that if everybody was paying $14 for their Whopper meal or whatever.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ca+restaurants+closing&t=brave&ia=web

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...ports-largest-number-of-homeless-people-ever/

 

[Spicoli43]

This model works well with the New World Order. Mini communes of 4 roommates or more. People never going outside because they are on their electronics whenever they can be. Very little social interaction. Minimum wage jobs with government assistance.

Our young people are being groomed for this.

Yep. Rules of the Demoncrats and a lot of Republicants. They want 15 minute cities with all EV's, which they can shut down with the flip of a switch... Then of course comes the Mark of the Beast and hopefully the Rapture.

Lots of people think we are in end times, which could of course be 500 years of end times.

 

[68bucks]

There have been lots of closings in CA... There have probably been the same in most states, but I mainly hear about CA from Conservative sites that like to make fun of their Governor Dictator that has destroyed the state (And might be their Presidential nominee)...

That said, you are probably right about the business model being mostly part time forever. I was full time for every FF job I had from 1990-1993. People were doing fine on $8 an hour when the rent was half what it is now. Why doesn't that make sense? Take it back to those time periods and everything else was cheaper as well, so they could afford Gas or the cable bill or whatever and maybe had 1 roommate or lived with their folks. At $4.25, I could have had an apartment with 1 roommate.

The entire point about my post is they did try to "seize" better wages with their marches that started in Seattle for $15... They mostly seized homelessness though. The marches happened and they eventually got $15, the lucky ones that kept Full time jobs... Most didn't. There's an absolute correlation to the homeless epidemic there and in every big city to the minimum wage being GIGANTIC...

Of course there was Homeless before, but it didn't magically increase by Thousands over a decade because of anything else. It's very simple economics... Raise the wages, everybody in the chain raises their prices from the Tomato farmer to the Bun maker to the Patty producer... The restaurants have to raise all their prices to pay the wages, but can't pay for Health benefits for even their most senior managers, who split for greener pastures and the cycle continues. The customers stop showing up because nobody wants to pay THAT to get THAT, hence burger King now rolling out a $5 deal for something. They wouldn't be doing that if everybody was paying $14 for their Whopper meal or whatever.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ca+restaurants+closing&t=brave&ia=web

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...ports-largest-number-of-homeless-people-ever/t

The problem I have with the narrative that $20 is doom for the FF industry is the lack of closings. The links you sent say a few things. Most of the results like to point to a Mexican place that closed 48 stores. That's the only one that sites mass closings and one article says they had been struggling for a long time and suffering from competition from Chipotle's. No other brands are mentioned as closing mass numbers of locations so I just don't buy it. We have restaurant closings around here all the time, nothing new and no $20 minimum wage. Restaurants are an ultra competitive business.
Other results site 10,000 FF jobs lost. According to the bureau of labor there are about 425,000 FF type jobs in California. So 10K eliminated less than 3%. So 97% of the people in that work still have their jobs, they just make more. Is that a bad thing? Also most of the restaurants site price increases in the 10% range. So searching I find in LA a Big Mac meal ranges from $11 - $18. So the price varies 60% just by location. So if you dropped by the $18 location before the wage increase you could have feasted for only $16.20. I see very few people stopping in to buy a $10 meal and walking out because it's $11. Will some, sure, but most won't change their habits. I think most of the $20 an hour workers were making over $15 already because stores had to pay more to even get someone to work so there was no doubling of the wage.

I think your attempt to attribute the homelessness increase to the increase in the minimum wage is very weak. In California about 10,000 people lost their FF jobs, do you just assume they ended up homeless? The housing shortage I believe is by far the biggest cause. Rent and home cost has gone up a ton but not because California raised the MW to $20/hr. It's simple capitalism, supply and demand.

 

[Snoonyb]

I'm not that pessimistic, If folks would simply abandon the, "CONVENIENCE" of their social media accounts, and return to in person conversations, they'd find out how calming it is.

 

[Snoonyb]

The problem I have with the narrative that $20 is doom for the FF industry is the lack of closings. The links you sent say a few things. Most of the results like to point to a Mexican place that closed 48 stores. That's the only one that sites mass closings and one article says they had been struggling for a long time and suffering from competition from Chipotle's. No other brands are mentioned as closing mass numbers of locations so I just don't buy it. We have restaurant closings around here all the time, nothing new and no $20 minimum wage. Restaurants are an ultra competitive business.
Other results site 10,000 FF jobs lost. According to the bureau of labor there are about 425,000 FF type jobs in California. So 10K eliminated less than 3%. So 97% of the people in that work still have their jobs, they just make more. Is that a bad thing? Also most of the restaurants site price increases in the 10% range. So searching I find in LA a Big Mac meal ranges from $11 - $18. So the price varies 60% just by location. So if you dropped by the $18 location before the wage increase you could have feasted for only $16.20. I see very few people stopping in to buy a $10 meal and walking out because it's $11. Will some, sure, but most won't change their habits. I think most of the $20 an hour workers were making over $15 already because stores had to pay more to even get someone to work so there was no doubling of the wage.

I think your attempt to attribute the homelessness increase to the increase in the minimum wage is very weak. In California about 10,000 people lost their FF jobs, do you just assume they ended up homeless? The housing shortage I believe is by far the biggest cause. Rent and home cost has gone up a ton but not because California raised the MW to $20/hr. It's simple capitalism, supply and demand.

The gov. of CA issued a blanket invitation to all the nations homeless, he also allocated $25million to house, feed and cloths illegals.

OREGON & WASH. along with CA are all governed by dem's, and all are experiencing rampant increases in homelessness.

 

[Spicoli43]

The problem I have with the narrative that $20 is doom for the FF industry is the lack of closings. The links you sent say a few things. Most of the results like to point to a Mexican place that closed 48 stores. That's the only one that sites mass closings and one article says they had been struggling for a long time and suffering from competition from Chipotle's. No other brands are mentioned as closing mass numbers of locations so I just don't buy it. We have restaurant closings around here all the time, nothing new and no $20 minimum wage. Restaurants are an ultra competitive business.
Other results site 10,000 FF jobs lost. According to the bureau of labor there are about 425,000 FF type jobs in California. So 10K eliminated less than 3%. So 97% of the people in that work still have their jobs, they just make more. Is that a bad thing? Also most of the restaurants site price increases in the 10% range. So searching I find in LA a Big Mac meal ranges from $11 - $18. So the price varies 60% just by location. So if you dropped by the $18 location before the wage increase you could have feasted for only $16.20. I see very few people stopping in to buy a $10 meal and walking out because it's $11. Will some, sure, but most won't change their habits. I think most of the $20 an hour workers were making over $15 already because stores had to pay more to even get someone to work so there was no doubling of the wage.

I think your attempt to attribute the homelessness increase to the increase in the minimum wage is very weak. In California about 10,000 people lost their FF jobs, do you just assume they ended up homeless? The housing shortage I believe is by far the biggest cause. Rent and home cost has gone up a ton but not because California raised the MW to $20/hr. It's simple capitalism, supply and demand.

Well, here's some, but I didn't say they were closing, you did.

https://financebuzz.com/fast-food-restaurants-closing-2023

The homeless crisis didn't start until after $15 was approved, partly I'm sure because the landlords raised the rent before they were making $15, which took a few years. It absolutely correlates because Homelessness, although of course always existent, was never at the record levels it is now.

I hiked from the Seattle Ferry dock to Mariners / Seahawks games more times than I can count and never saw one tent in the 80's to 2000's

If you are a minimum wage earner and your only job just cut you from 40 hours to 20 hours, now you not only need one more job just to match what you were at (Maybe, if the wage is the same), but you also need a third job to pay for the benefits that now are solely on you, how long are you going to last before burning out?

Like Burger King 20 hours... McDonalds 20 hours... Uber driver every night... That doesn't include studying if you're in HS (doubtful) or College...

It's not sustainable, so you give up one job... Apartment gone... What if you don't have connections with your parents / are in a different city / burned that bridge etc?

Homeless.

If your scenario of supply and demand were true, it would have happened decades ago. Greed wasn't invented by the people marching for $15.

 

[zannej]

I think the question about neutral wire has been answered. My friend had explained something but I couldn't remember what it was. LOL.
Ron, the drywall and electrical look good..
I don't know about other places, but the local fast food places no longer hire at entry level. They won't hire people who don't have experience with working in fast food or cooking before. So, no hiring those high school kids or people fresh out of school looking for first jobs. But they still pay low wages, under staff, and expect a single employee to do the tasks that used to be split among 3 to 5 people. So people are working harder for any slight increase in wages.

I personally hate the tipping system because I've seen it be abused. Just because a server is good doesn't mean they will get tipped. But that is a rant for another day.

Yesterday I got up early and got things ready for us to go to the wedding (cousin's oldest son's wedding). Wanted to leave before 11 but my brother didn't wake up and get in gear in time. over 2hr40min drive to the hotel where my sister was staying. We stopped there to change into the wedding clothes and then GPS got us lost and we couldn't find the right door on the mega church to get in and ended up being a little late. We missed the groom's father (my cousin's malignant narcissist ex) give a speech where he took credit for the wedding planning/setup, how well the groom turned out, quoted scripture, and went on about how Godly and pious he (himself) was. My uncle was furious at his hypocrisy. He had nothing to do with the wedding other than attending. Didn't contribute one cent, had nothing to do with the planning, and the groom turned out well despite him. He's a liar, hypocrite, thief, cheater, and adulterer. He was glaring daggers and looking miserable during the mother-son dance at the reception. He hates my cousin and hates their oldest daughter-- who didn't come to the wedding when she found out he'd be there. I missed seeing her there, but she's low contact with the family because of the dad.

The reception was fun. Decent food. Nice people. Groom came and sat with people at each table to thank everyone for coming and talk one-on-one with people. He is a sweetheart. Absolutely takes after his mom. She came over to talk to us. Uncle sat with us and talked about the house he grew up on. He said the address and I pulled up street view on it to show him. He said the sidewalk hadn't been there before but that a lot looked the same.

Groom announced partway through that we were having a nerf gun battle and picked teams-- bride or groom. Mom didn't participate and neither did uncle. The rest of us had fun and groom then declared that he felt his side won. LOL. Got to keep the little nerf gun.

Went back to the hotel and can't remember if it was before or after 8pm. Uncle came and sat in the lobby with us for a bit and sister gave me her room card to go upstairs bc she could see I was exhausted (I woke up hours before the rest of the family). I changed out of the wedding clothes and took a nap. Woke up to Mom sort of petting my head. LOL. She said it was after 11. Cousin and her fiance came in to see us and thank us for coming. I thanked her fiance for making her happy. Another reason her ex was unhappy was seeing her so happy and having moved on with someone else while he's single and unemployed. She's working as a chemistry teacher. The pay isn't great but she enjoys teaching.

I think it was after midnight when we finally headed out to the truck and then had to drive home in the dark. Mom got hangry an hour into the drive and started having a mini tantrum so we stopped at the only place open-- Taco Bell-- and then didn't get home until after 3am.

I parked and ran straight into the house to use the bathroom. Haven't properly backed the truck in and still need to unload stuff. Bladder woke me up around 6am but I still want more time to rest.

 

[Snoonyb]

[SIZE=5]Spicoli43[/SIZE], Salvation may be on the doorstep. There's been a report of increased volcanic activity at MT RAINIER.​

 

[PJB12]

This model works well with the New World Order. Mini communes of 4 roommates or more. People never going outside because they are on their electronics whenever they can be. Very little social interaction. Minimum wage jobs with government assistance.

Our young people are being groomed for this.

You're so correct about the younger people not being without their electronics, Ron!

Not too long ago, I did a project at a small college. At lunch one day, about 20 of us on the job went to the cafeteria. The people I was with were all in their late 20's to late 30's. We sat at a long table that was set up for us. During the hour long break, not one word was spoken. Not one! Everyone had his or her face in a cell phone.

At the other tables, the kids were having lively conversations with each other. There was a lot of joy and happiness among them. I wondered why these young people weren't face-in-phone.

At dinner break, I went alone to the cafeteria. Upon entering, I noticed a large basket with phones in it. I inquired. The gatekeeper said the students have to deposit their phones upon entering. I thought that was a great idea!

Paul

 

[shan2themax]

I have THE BEST son-in-love. My daughter and her s/o came over with the kids when she got off work today. He and I were measuring and searching the best place to put an above ground pool. We'll I guess he decided on their way over here that they were gonna do the yard again also. Then when he and I were getting stuff out of my patio storage thing to zone off the area, I found my battery powered brush cutter and the battery was still charged after 9ish months so he went to town on the yard. And got rid of this huge bush!
I can't get an angle from the same spot as the original because it's raining, but you get the point.
BEFORE

AFTER

 

[Ron Van]

I have THE BEST son-in-love. My daughter and her s/o came over with the kids when she got off work today. He and I were measuring and searching the best place to put an above ground pool. We'll I guess he decided on their way over here that they were gonna do the yard again also. Then when he and I were getting stuff out of my patio storage thing to zone off the area, I found my battery powered brush cutter and the battery was still charged after 9ish months so he went to town on the yard. And got rid of this huge bush!
I can't get an angle from the same spot as the original because it's raining, but you get the point.
BEFORE
View attachment 32931
AFTER
View attachment 32933

Much better!

 

[shan2themax]

I could cry...... literally.
He said they were going to work on a small tree up against my neighbors found dation but in my yard, and another bush out front. Then try to get a plan together for the tree stumps.

 

[Snoonyb]

HMMM, no spilled milk, let alone, milk carton.