Roundabouts

[bud16415]

There are times that I think why couldn't I just be like the masses and believe the government will work it all out with time.

Our close by big city is Erie and for over 100 years the center of town was called Perry Square and was a 4-block park named after Admiral Perry of the battle of Lake Erie fame. The park was divided into 2 sides east and west by State Street running north and south but had 6 streets coming into it. It was really a huge traffic circle that all traffic went around counter clockwise and had traffic lights at the two north and south ends of State Street. It was like that in the horse and buggy days WW1, WW2 and worked just fine until the city hired a traffic manager about 50 years ago that came from India. His first act was to figure out what was wrong with Perry Square? Nothing! But he decided the fix to the non-problem would be to reverse the traffic flow so everyone goes around clockwise. Where before you just yielded right now you had to cross traffic left so every corner needed a traffic light. Brilliant solution the guy who came up with it Wasinder Mokha is long gone the mayor and city council all gone now and I read a story in the local paper where they are wondering why the traffic goes the wrong way around the park. No one knows it is just the way it is.



People do stupid things and the things live on forever. I don’t get downtown all that much these days but when I do and sitting at one of those lights I can still hear my dad saying GD Wasinder Mokha!

 

[zepper]

The daffiest thing about them (and sorry if someone already mentioned this and I didn't notice) is how they affect driving rules.

Once you're in the roundabout (or "rind-a-bite", as my English friends call 'em), you have the right of way, and others entering it must yield. Lots of peeps don't know that, and think you'll stop to let them in as you come 'round the bend. Dangerous. I never assume.

I have a friend for whom this kind of thing is such a peeve, all I have to do is mention "traffic calming", "roundabout", or some associated term to send him off in a frenzy.

Parking meters, too. Here in Vancouver, we used to have lots of free street park, especially around areas of business-to-residential zoning transitions where the city hadn't bothered to install meters. But now that everything's gone digital, all they have to do is number each space and put up a sign telling you that you must use a phone app to pay to park there. What a racket.

 

[Sparky617]

I read a study suggesting that roundabouts have increased the total number of accidents. That's what scares me because I don't do fatal accidents. A mere fender bender could total my Prism.

Cars can be replaced. People can't. Age of the car determines whether any accident will total it. What will total a 10 year old car is significantly less than a new one.

 

[PJB12]

My father was a Transportation Safety & Urban Analysis Engineering expert. He worked in Europe where roundabouts were common. When discussions started about bringing them to the U.S., he said their studies showed that there are more collisions in roundabouts than traditional 4-way intersections, but fewer injuries & fatalities. A brother of mine is a fire fighter-paramedic for a large city. He said the same thing. But... As was mentioned by HAVASU IN #13, above, it isn't always the case.

The suburban Detroit area is putting them in the high-collision intersections. To be honest, those particular roundabouts are scary and I stay away.

The latest "genius" idea in the Detroit area is to swap driving sides at freeway intersections. For example, if one is driving on 14 Mile Road and approaches I-75, all of a sudden eastbound traffic lanes shift over to the left side of the road and west bound shift to the right side. England style.

Suddenly, there are "Left turn only" and "Freeway Only" lanes, with no signage, just words on pavement when it is too late to swap lanes. . They confuse people and, as is typical in Michigan, no one knows what lane to be in until it's too late. Every, single time I have been through one there is a traffic jam of people trying to get in the correct lane. Yesterday at 1:00 pm (not rush hour), I was stuck for about 20 minutes to go about 1/4 mile.

I wonder what will be next?

 

[PJB12]

Parking meters, too. Here in Vancouver, we used to have lots of free street park, especially around areas of business-to-residential zoning transitions where the city hadn't bothered to install meters. But now that everything's gone digital, all they have to do is number each space and put up a sign telling you that you must use a phone app to pay to park there. What a racket.

I'll never be able to figure out those wack-a-doodle parking meters.
I tried to park the other day and was supposed to download an app. Great, except my phone doesn't have a data plan- thus no download. No parking for me. (And no spending at the merchant) Oy!

 

[Eddie_T]

Cars can be replaced. People can't. Age of the car determines whether any accident will total it. What will total a 10 year old car is significantly less than a new one.

My Prism can't be replaced w/o a nationwide search. There is no current model of car or truck that I would purchase. The Prism excels on visibility which permits me to drive defensively and I really save on insurance premiums since I have no collision insurance. Most people for some reason spend what others tell them is a reasonable amount of their income on vehicles. I am smarter than that thus have been debt free most of my life. I avoid all accidents and vehicles in a short radius roundabout are essentially bumper to bumper so if I had to brake I could be rear ended which would total my vehicle and put me at risk of whiplash or back injury. I laugh at the number of four door F-150s in the Walmart parking lot but fear them in the roundabout.

 

[Eddie_T]

Another roundabout fallout that may not have been considered is the lack of opticom control.

 

[bud16415]

Another roundabout fallout that may not have been considered is the lack of opticom control.

One of the first comments I made when the first round about came here was, What do we do if an 18 wheeler dies in the circle. Emergency vehicles have no bypass around our circles especially in the winter months.



Erie was the first city in the country I believe that back in the early 60s a local guy invented what he called Rad-o-lite. It was radio control of the east/west, north/south lights that could be controlled by the EMT folks. Rad-O-Lite RELCO Emergency Lights

It worked great.



Erie also had timed traffic lights and if crossing town you hit the magic speed of around 40MPH you would catch every light as green.



They did all this stuff in the days before computers and the internet and it worked for years.

 

[Sparky617]

One of the first comments I made when the first round about came here was, What do we do if an 18 wheeler dies in the circle. Emergency vehicles have no bypass around our circles especially in the winter months.



Erie was the first city in the country I believe that back in the early 60s a local guy invented what he called Rad-o-lite. It was radio control of the east/west, north/south lights that could be controlled by the EMT folks. Rad-O-Lite RELCO Emergency Lights

It worked great.



Erie also had timed traffic lights and if crossing town you hit the magic speed of around 40MPH you would catch every light as green.



They did all this stuff in the days before computers and the internet and it worked for years.

Timed lights work pretty well on one way roads. Hard to sync them both ways on a two direction road. When I lived in Philadelphia Walnut and Chestnut Streets we're timed that if you did the speed limit you'd get green lights all the way in or out from West Philly to center city. Both were one way roads. With computer control they can optimize lights in the primary direction for rush hour traffic, if there is a primary direction. Around here, there really isn't a primary direction in town due to sprawl with homes and offices all over the place.

 

[Flyover]

The latest "genius" idea in the Detroit area is to swap driving sides at freeway intersections. For example, if one is driving on 14 Mile Road and approaches I-75, all of a sudden eastbound traffic lanes shift over to the left side of the road and west bound shift to the right side.

At first I thought you were talking about the "Michigan Left" but I think you're actually describing a diverging diamond interchange (Diverging diamond interchange - Wikipedia). We have one on the other side of town from where I live, I think they're cool. I take that exit to get to my drummer buddy's house, and it's never clogged, there's never an accident, works great. The advantages seem obvious to me, though I can also see how it might seem strange to some folks.

My Prism can't be replaced w/o a nationwide search. There is no current model of car or truck that I would purchase. The Prism excels on visibility which permits me to drive defensively and I really save on insurance premiums since I have no collision insurance. Most people for some reason spend what others tell them is a reasonable amount of their income on vehicles. I am smarter than that

I can relate to this. I am also very picky about cars, with certain factors I insist on with regard to visibility, efficiency, reliability, longevity, cargo space, etc. not to mention being able to find one with a manual transmission, and I refuse to spend more than about $5K on a vehicle. Because, you know, it's not a f#$&ing house, or a college degree.

I laugh at the number of four door F-150s in the Walmart parking lot

Hahaha yes!

What do we do if an 18 wheeler dies in the circle.

Isn't that a problem in a regular intersection too?

 

[bud16415]

Isn't that a problem in a regular intersection too?

It is a problem but not as bad as the EMT can use the oncoming lane or pass around the blockage even to the right using the right away or even the side walk. When something stops in the circle it is all over for getting past.

 

[Eddie_T]

We had one accident in our roundabout (I don't know what vehicles) but it blocked four lanes for hours. If they stick to the plan and have three roundabouts in less than a mile with two of them being adjacent an accident (or merely a bottleneck) may prove interesting.

 

[Eddie_T]

I would hate to be on a bicycle trying to make the left turn (270°).

 

[zepper]

Doesn't the very name rub you the wrong way, too? "Roundabout"? When you want to get somewhere, you want to get there, right? You don't want to take a "roundabout" route to it. It's like asking everybody to stop for groceries along the way or something. Feh.

 

[Eddie_T]

When I was a kid they were called traffic circles. I guess renaming something outdated makes it somehow new.

There's a diamond over by I-26. It's probably safe but since I have never used it I just avoid it. I think the problem with it is you have to be sure to be in the left lane if you plan to enter I-26. I just avoid driving where I or more likely others might get confused. That may be why Prism has only suffered a rear-ending.

 

[Flyover]

When I was a kid they were called traffic circles.

When I was a kid everyone I knew called them roundabouts, then in my 20s someone gave me directions and mentioned a traffic circle and I had no idea what he was talking about.

 

[Eddie_T]

When I was a kid everyone I knew called them roundabouts, then in my 20s someone gave me directions and mentioned a traffic circle and I had no idea what he was talking about.

Maybe you were in England, I recall traffic circles or rotaries.

 

[Flyover]

Maybe you were in England, IO recall traffic circles or rotaries.

Yes! I was in England. That probably explains it.

 

[bud16415]

https://www.co.washington.mn.us/Doc...fic circle is a,is controlled by yield signs.

 

[PJB12]

At first I thought you were talking about the "Michigan Left" but I think you're actually describing a diverging diamond interchange (Diverging diamond interchange - Wikipedia). We have one on the other side of town from where I live, I think they're cool. I take that exit to get to my drummer buddy's house, and it's never clogged, there's never an accident, works great. The advantages seem obvious to me, though I can also see how it might seem strange to some folks.

That's them, Flyover. Thanks for giving a name to the madness! (Is "Diverging" spelled "C o f u s i n g"?)

Perhaps they'd be OK if the state would put signs for "Left Lane Must Enter Freeway", "Right Turn Only Lane" & stuff like that ahead of the intersection instead of a painted picture on the ground 50 feet from the place that one must turn.

Ideally, they would put an extra lane, too. When there are 2 lanes flowing east and the lanes get to the freeway, one of them must enter the freeway. Only one goes through.

Some even have one of the lanes ending at the southbound entrance, then it shows back up only to have the other lane end for the northbound entrance. People then have to try to merge left or right. Such a slow down it creates!

Me? For freeway entrances, I like the old way of having both north bound & south bound entrances on the same right lane side. If they don't want to spend the money for a long loop entrance ramp, left turn lanes with delayed green arrows have worked for years.

Paul
PS: Michigan Lefts are really convenient. When crossing another busy road, many even have traffic signals at the turnaround point for convenience & safety. (And there is also the "3 Right Turn" method for city blocks.)