House Building Questions
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And I don't see it that way, You see, ethics is how you conduct yourself while the sun shines, and integrity is how you conduct yourself, when the lights are off, and for me, they are irrevocably conjoined.
"What can go wrong, will", drives me to accomplish tasks in such a manner that they will not fail.
"What can go wrong, will", drives me to accomplish tasks in such a manner that they will not fail.
That saying doesn't have anything to do with ethics or doing things right... instead it's about always having the expectation that things won't go right. The belief that bad things are going to happen all the time.
Seems like it would be better to believe and expect that things are going to go right and seek ways to do things right to reinforce the expectation of having a good outcome and IF things don't go right, we're going to do all we can to make them right if it's in our power to do so.
Seems like it would be better to believe and expect that things are going to go right and seek ways to do things right to reinforce the expectation of having a good outcome and IF things don't go right, we're going to do all we can to make them right if it's in our power to do so.
Flyover
Trying not to screw things up worse
I think the "do things so they can't fail"/"expect things to fail and so do things that will prevent those things happening" is a complicated interaction, not a one-or-the-other. NASA astronauts do an exercise where they sit around a table and brainstorm all the ways they might die, and then come up with lists of things that should happen in those cases, then figure out all the ways the items on those lists might fail and they end up dying anyway, etc. But I think those life-threatening accidents don't actually end up befalling them too much in reality, because they plan and train so well to prevent them.
Anyway back to underground elements...is one consideration not just whether it will be punctured, but the heating up and cooling down, at least at the points where it's above the frost line, and what effects that kind of wear & associated condensation and stuff will have on the materials after a while?
Anyway back to underground elements...is one consideration not just whether it will be punctured, but the heating up and cooling down, at least at the points where it's above the frost line, and what effects that kind of wear & associated condensation and stuff will have on the materials after a while?
NO it isn't, It's conducting ones practice in a manner that prevents the eventuality of ones ethics or integrity being questioned.
Ethics and integrity are not a coin flip, and I'm never in a quandary about the longevity on my workmanship.
However, there are common practices, learned and engrained, which last for decades and when a tradesman delineates from those, they are little more than self marketing.
Little off topic but this half full/empty glass question caught my eye.
I once designed a special purpose machine to wind field coils for locomotive traction motors. It was early on in my career and I wanted to make something really good to the best of my design abilities. When built and put into service the only needs it had were to be greased and I even added an automatic grease system that worked off of timers and every few years the light would come on and it was time for a new barrel of grease to be replaced. This machine ran 3 shifts 24 hours a day for 6 days a week sometimes 7 for over 20 years.
I was sitting at my desk one day and the maintenance guy from the building it was in gives me a call and tells me to get over there right away as “this piece of crap machine” I designed broke down and needed a bearing replaced and he needed help on how to take it apart as no one there seemed to remember how to do it. I walked over and asked him how old he was? And he said 25, and I told him last time anyone worked on this “piece of crap machine” he was in kindergarten.
He was what I would call a half empty glass kind of person at that time. It was another 15 year until I retired and it was still chugging away and over the years talking with the guy when I would run into him and always bringing up the machine he kind of converted at least about that one machine to a half full guy.
Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.
I once designed a special purpose machine to wind field coils for locomotive traction motors. It was early on in my career and I wanted to make something really good to the best of my design abilities. When built and put into service the only needs it had were to be greased and I even added an automatic grease system that worked off of timers and every few years the light would come on and it was time for a new barrel of grease to be replaced. This machine ran 3 shifts 24 hours a day for 6 days a week sometimes 7 for over 20 years.
I was sitting at my desk one day and the maintenance guy from the building it was in gives me a call and tells me to get over there right away as “this piece of crap machine” I designed broke down and needed a bearing replaced and he needed help on how to take it apart as no one there seemed to remember how to do it. I walked over and asked him how old he was? And he said 25, and I told him last time anyone worked on this “piece of crap machine” he was in kindergarten.
He was what I would call a half empty glass kind of person at that time. It was another 15 year until I retired and it was still chugging away and over the years talking with the guy when I would run into him and always bringing up the machine he kind of converted at least about that one machine to a half full guy.
Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.
Flyover
Trying not to screw things up worse
This is a solid position to take, and if you are trying to feed your family as a tradesman it will help you all sleep better at night.
But if everyone took this path there would be no innovation or adaptability, as well as few options for customers. Common practices are themselves the product of earlier tradesmen (perhaps optimistic "glass half-full" people) taking risks and learning from the consequences. How else did we wind up with all these different ways to do framing, roofs, plumbing, etc.
While imagination and evolution, are boundless, delineating from secure practices can subject others to losses that could well have been avoided.
Who walks away, you!
Thanks for sharing your opinion, but that's not what this saying is referring to.
Remember, the saying we were talking about is... "if anything can go wrong it will..." which is the expectation, the belief that things are very likely to go wrong and probably will.
One could have the very highest of ethics, engage the the very best workmanship, and demand the finest materials tools and equipment... and be worried sick that all is very likely to go wrong because they embrace and believe so called Murphy's Law which is "if anything can go wrong it will..."
This has nothing to do with one's ethics, workmanship, or quality of materials or parts being use to get a job done.
Good to know.
Nothing wrong at all with doing the very best we can do, but after putting forth one's best efforts one should have trust in the work they've done and believe things will go well.
Sure it's always possible for things to go wrong regardless of how good the work was, but it's self defeating to sit around worrying and wondering "when is the next shoe going to drop" (another common saying) like many do as thoughts of fear go thru their mind expecting things to somehow go wrong.
It would be best to do good work, have faith in your work, and then go forward as though the good work you've done will stand and nothing will go wrong.
In other words, kick Murphy and his ridiculous law in the back side and go forth with confidence that your work was great and all is well and don't even think about things going wrong after the job is done.
Sure it's always possible for things to go wrong regardless of how good the work was, but it's self defeating to sit around worrying and wondering "when is the next shoe going to drop" (another common saying) like many do as thoughts of fear go thru their mind expecting things to somehow go wrong.
It would be best to do good work, have faith in your work, and then go forward as though the good work you've done will stand and nothing will go wrong.
In other words, kick Murphy and his ridiculous law in the back side and go forth with confidence that your work was great and all is well and don't even think about things going wrong after the job is done.
Well... I've decided to call off my barnominium project and sell the 5 acres I bought to build it on.
I cannot undertake any project under a blank check kind of situation where I cannot get a ball park figure of what it's going to cost to finish out the inside of building.
The guy (local metal building company that builds them and sells supplies) that was going to build the metal building itself claimed they do turn key finish out projects all the time for many of their customers but he never would provide any estimate. I understand that it's hard to give an exact price but for the basic I should be able to some ball park pricing
I had worked with a retired civil engineer to develop complete plans for the build so I should be able to get ball park pricing for basic things like plumbing, electric, doors, windows, drywall, etc. I called other folks asking for an estimate and wasn't able to get any call backs.
So, screw it! I'm going to sell the 5 acres which I'll be able to make a profit on (should be able to make $50k if it sells for my bottom dollar price, possibly double that if I sell for my asking price). There are no structures on the property at all so the property taxes won't be too much so sitting on it a year or two is not a problem.
I think now I'm going to focus on getting a decent house that is already built that doesn't need too much work. It seems to be easier to get people to provide pricing on simple stuff like putting on a metal roof, painting, flooring, window replacement.
If I can find something with a good foundation that doesn't need a whole lot of work I can work with that if I can get it for a decent price. With interest rates going up, this should work in my favor since I'm a cash buyer not having to mess with getting a mortgage.
I appreciate you guys humoring me and answering my questions. I've learned a lot from the info everyone has shared. Once I find a house someday I'm sure I'll be back with a few questions about fixing it up.
I cannot undertake any project under a blank check kind of situation where I cannot get a ball park figure of what it's going to cost to finish out the inside of building.
The guy (local metal building company that builds them and sells supplies) that was going to build the metal building itself claimed they do turn key finish out projects all the time for many of their customers but he never would provide any estimate. I understand that it's hard to give an exact price but for the basic I should be able to some ball park pricing
I had worked with a retired civil engineer to develop complete plans for the build so I should be able to get ball park pricing for basic things like plumbing, electric, doors, windows, drywall, etc. I called other folks asking for an estimate and wasn't able to get any call backs.
So, screw it! I'm going to sell the 5 acres which I'll be able to make a profit on (should be able to make $50k if it sells for my bottom dollar price, possibly double that if I sell for my asking price). There are no structures on the property at all so the property taxes won't be too much so sitting on it a year or two is not a problem.
I think now I'm going to focus on getting a decent house that is already built that doesn't need too much work. It seems to be easier to get people to provide pricing on simple stuff like putting on a metal roof, painting, flooring, window replacement.
If I can find something with a good foundation that doesn't need a whole lot of work I can work with that if I can get it for a decent price. With interest rates going up, this should work in my favor since I'm a cash buyer not having to mess with getting a mortgage.
I appreciate you guys humoring me and answering my questions. I've learned a lot from the info everyone has shared. Once I find a house someday I'm sure I'll be back with a few questions about fixing it up.
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Good Luck. It's difficult to get any bids here as well, now would be about the time for me to call for next April if I was doing it.
No, it's slammed. Construction everywhere.
Your new plan is very much what we did going on ten years ago now. We bought a short sale house with some major disrepair for $24k. Taxes are very low based on the homes age. We made the majority of the improvements in the first year and the only job I hired done was the metal roof and I worked with the Amish to install the roofs but I purchased the materials. The work we did DIY with about 50% of the materials sourced off Craigslist or other social media used or new. As an example we bought a used oak kitchen with almost new appliances for $1200. Shopping around was kind of fun actually and in the end my guess is we put another $20k in that first year. Having no house payment and not paying any interest is a great feeling. We have many friends that have much nicer homes but are also working many years trying to get out from under the loans they have.
Right now we know a lot of people wishing they could buy but are having lots of problems even meeting the down payments and then still having huge payments for the next 30 years they may not be able to make. Renting is killing them on the other hand but they are renting nice homes and can’t see past the short-term problems of fixing a place up.
The odd thing is our house sat on the market for over 2 years and was looked at by dozens of people the real estate agent told us. The flippers saw it as too much work they wanted to paint it up and make it look ok and double their money and the first time buyers ether didn’t have the cash or the skills or both.
It is tricky to find that perfect mix of cost to buy and cost to improve and then find it in a location you like. Imposable maybe in some areas of the country. I have noticed here just in the last two years places no flippers would have ever looked at are now getting done with some major projects. On the other hand the house 2 doors down from us the old guy died at 95 years old and he had a HUD reverse mortgage for $50k. The house itself is dated to the 60s but is move in ready or was 2 years ago when he died. It was never put up for sale HUD is just sitting on it paying taxes and paying to have the grass mowed and the heat turned on. They could have easily sold it and turned a profit. I don’t get it.
Good luck on your search.
Thanks!
I have noticed that older homes seem to have a lower property tax rate than newer homes so I'm hoping to find an older home with no foundation or structural issues at a good price and then as you did, fix it up.
I've done this numerous times with vehicles (I never buy brand new) where if the engine and tranny are good and the body is decent and not all rusted, I can work with that and fix it up from there.
I have noticed that older homes seem to have a lower property tax rate than newer homes so I'm hoping to find an older home with no foundation or structural issues at a good price and then as you did, fix it up.
I've done this numerous times with vehicles (I never buy brand new) where if the engine and tranny are good and the body is decent and not all rusted, I can work with that and fix it up from there.
vikingbarns
New Member
When you were evaluating different build methods how you arrived on this one?
When evaluating different construction methods, my decision was based on several key factors:
1. Project Goals: I considered the specific goals and requirements of the project. What were the main objectives, budget constraints, and timeline considerations?
2. Site Conditions: Site conditions played a crucial role. Factors like location, soil type, climate, and available space influenced the choice of construction method.
3. Materials and Resources: I assessed the availability and cost of materials and resources. Some methods may require specialized materials or equipment, which can impact the overall feasibility.
4. Sustainability: I considered environmental factors and sustainability goals. Some construction methods align better with eco-friendly practices and energy efficiency.
5. Cost Analysis: A detailed cost analysis helped determine the most cost-effective method, factoring in both initial construction costs and long-term maintenance expenses.
6. Experience and Expertise: My own experience and expertise, as well as that of the project team or contractors, were considered. The chosen method needed to align with our capabilities.
7. Regulatory Compliance: I ensured that the selected method complied with local building codes, permits, and regulations.
8. Risk Assessment: I evaluated potential risks associated with each construction method, such as safety concerns, construction delays, or unexpected challenges.
9. Aesthetics and Design: The desired aesthetics and architectural design of the project also played a role in the decision-making process.
10. Client Preferences: If applicable, I considered the preferences and priorities of the client or stakeholders involved in the project.
Ultimately, the decision to choose a particular construction method involved weighing these factors to determine the best fit for the project's unique needs and constraints.
When evaluating different construction methods, my decision was based on several key factors:
1. Project Goals: I considered the specific goals and requirements of the project. What were the main objectives, budget constraints, and timeline considerations?
2. Site Conditions: Site conditions played a crucial role. Factors like location, soil type, climate, and available space influenced the choice of construction method.
3. Materials and Resources: I assessed the availability and cost of materials and resources. Some methods may require specialized materials or equipment, which can impact the overall feasibility.
4. Sustainability: I considered environmental factors and sustainability goals. Some construction methods align better with eco-friendly practices and energy efficiency.
5. Cost Analysis: A detailed cost analysis helped determine the most cost-effective method, factoring in both initial construction costs and long-term maintenance expenses.
6. Experience and Expertise: My own experience and expertise, as well as that of the project team or contractors, were considered. The chosen method needed to align with our capabilities.
7. Regulatory Compliance: I ensured that the selected method complied with local building codes, permits, and regulations.
8. Risk Assessment: I evaluated potential risks associated with each construction method, such as safety concerns, construction delays, or unexpected challenges.
9. Aesthetics and Design: The desired aesthetics and architectural design of the project also played a role in the decision-making process.
10. Client Preferences: If applicable, I considered the preferences and priorities of the client or stakeholders involved in the project.
Ultimately, the decision to choose a particular construction method involved weighing these factors to determine the best fit for the project's unique needs and constraints.
