Replacing fuses with breakers

[tomtheelder2020]

Updating and requesting input on a previously posted topic.

History: My 1951 house had a 6 circuit, 100 amp fuse box in the laundry room when I purchased it in 1990. In order to install AC when we moved in, I had a 200 amp circuit breaker box installed in the garage (separated from house by breezeway) and the fuse box was made a sub-panel. I recently had galvanized pipe water system replaced with PEX. That means a heavy gauge system ground wire connecting the fuse box to the galvanized pipe now connects to nothing. In fact, a water pipe repair 20+ years ago included a dielectric coupling so that wire had done nothing for a long time. Intending to install GFCI receptacles, I discovered that one in the laundry room was not controlled by any fuse. An electrician confirmed that circuit had been wired to bypass the fuses. The fuse box is behind a water heater in the laundry room, which does not meet code, but it is higher so accessible.

Current: I have received three bids to replace the fuses with breakers:
1) Remove the fuse box and replace it with a breaker box at that location. $1000
2) Remove the fuse box and replace it with a breaker box at that location. Run a new 3-wire cable from main panel to sub-panel so that it (but not circuits) will be grounded. $1,850
3) Remove fuse box and replace it with a junction box. Run new wires for each circuit to the main panel and install circuit breakers for each. $1,450

I also had a bid the same as #2 but they want $4,300 for the job so ... I don't think I will use them.

Aside from cost, what do you see as the advantages or disadvantages of each approach? With #1 Should I drive a ground rod outside the foundation and connect it to that system ground wire in the subfloor or has that been unnecessary since it was made a sub-panel 30 years ago? Getting the sub-panel out from behind the water heater would be nice, but does it really make a difference? Running a new cable with ground to the sub-panel (#2) also seems a good idea - but is it any better than running new wires for each circuit to the main panel? With #2, could I run ground wires through the subfloor from individual receptacles to the sub-panel so they would have an equipment ground? What other advantages/disadvantages/issues are there? Thanks.

 

[bud16415]

I’m assuming the new panel in the garage has a whole bunch of empty slots for breakers?



If it were mine there is something to be said in having all the trip points in the same place and on the first floor level as in the garage. Chances are with the 6 location fuse panel some if not all the circuit running to it have been doubled up. With making that location a junction box if there are double circuits running off a fuse they could then be broken up between 2 breakers in the garage. Also if you do a study of all the wires coming into the old fuse panel some might be light on loads and some heavy and some could be moved around to help with loads.



Option 3 is what I think I like best.



The ground to the water pipe I wouldn’t worry about I think that was more about grounding the piping than providing a ground path.



When you had your new panel put in the garage they should have driven a new rod outside at the entrance location or maybe connected to the old one that was there.



If your house was built in 1951 you don’t have the real old K&T stuff my guess is you have the 2 wire no ground romex that’s has the cloth cover and the conductors have a plastic insulation and some paper filler in there. I would be ok with that other than no ground but you can still replace the outlets with GFCI and be fine. For sure do the bathrooms and the kitchen outlets and any that are around moisture outdoors basement etc.



Doing all that you should be in good shape IMO.



I’m not a pro so take what I’m telling you like a helpful neighbors advice.

 

[tomtheelder2020]

Bud, thanks for the input. You are right about all of your assumptions, including the ground rod driven at the service entrance when the new panel was installed.

My understanding is that the ground to the water pipe was to control the power surge from a nearby lightning strike. It seems to me that the ground rod driven for the new panel should serve that function - hopefully someone can confirm.

 

[Sparky617]

In my house I have three panels. A main panel connected to my meter on the outside of the house. This panel has the breakers for the nearby AC compressors, my newly added EV circuit in the garage, a currently unused breaker for an electric range, and two 100 amp breakers for the attached garage sub panel and my newly added basement subpanel. The garage subpanel has all the receptacle and lighting breakers for most of the house, along with other appliances including the 220v dryer outlet. The basement subpanel has all the stuff I added for when I finished the basement including a separate basement HVAC unit.

If you have room, I'd add a sub panel in the laundry room, since your garage is attached by a greenway. The ground connection to your plumbing is to ground your plumbing. If your pipes are plastic, there is no need. The electrical system should have a ground rod in addition to the plumbing ground if the pipes are metal. So I like option 2.

 

[JoeD]

The first two option are not to code. I would not use anyone who suggested that option. When replacing the panel you have to meet the clearance requirements.
Option 3 is the best. You can use GFCI breakers and replace the receptacle with three prong versions. they will not be grounded but will be code compliant and able to accept 3 prong plugs.

 

[bud16415]

@JoeD



We both seem to like Option 3 and the only question I have is I seem to get a fair amount of nuisance trips on my GFCI outlets and I like being able to reset them right where something is plugged in. In the case of GFCI breakers are they any less likely to have nuisance trips as I would hate to run out to the garage every time one trips.



Likewise having them behind a couch or coffee table isn’t a great spot ether. What I find is I seldom get a trip once plugged in so in the case of a GFCI that’s a little hard to get to you wouldn’t likely be plugging the sweeper into that one.



I know GFCI outlets can be setup so the following circuits will be protected with the load connection, but even then unless they are side by side I find people get confused trying to find the one that tripped. In the long run it might cost more to just stick one in every outlet and be done with it.



What are your thoughts on doing that?

 

[Sparky617]

The first two option are not to code. I would not use anyone who suggested that option. When replacing the panel you have to meet the clearance requirements.
Option 3 is the best. You can use GFCI breakers and replace the receptacle with three prong versions. they will not be grounded but will be code compliant and able to accept 3 prong plugs.

I would only do this work by pulling permits. So I wouldn't hire a contractor to do the work if he wasn't going to pull permits and do the work to code. So I will qualify my response to say all work would need to be to code. Use GFCIs on outlets that you don't want to run new wires to for properly grounding them. I would rather have the breaker panel in the house than in a semi-attached garage.

 

[Eddie_T]

Grounded receptacles are code but I notice almost every small appliance I have has a two prong polarized plug. Vacuum cleaner, lamps, heating pad,electric blanket, guitar amp, wall warts, waffle iron, three griddles, electric frying pan, coffee maker, toaster, induction burner, hot plate, food warmer, quartz heater, space heater. fans, stereo, computer, radio and TV. are two prong. My air fryer has a three prong plug but I added a two prong converter to make it easier to unplug. Washer, dryer, electric mixer, refrigerator, freezer and microwave are three prong. Also most shop tools are three prong.

 

[tomtheelder2020]

Thanks all for the input.

Re: GFCI receptacles. This all started when I was going to install one and found the existing wasn’t on a fuse circuit. It was to be the first of 10 GFCI receptacles I already purchased; I plan to replace ALL of the old receptacles.


No one responded to my idea of running a separate ground from a GFCI to the new breakers – so I will take that to mean no one likes the idea.


Putting the new breakers behind the water heater isn’t to code – but it is a hell of a lot better than what I currently have. Accessing the wiring above the fuse box through the attic will be difficult but that is the choice I will likely make If the electrician thinks he can do it. Otherwise, the breakers go behind the water heater.

 

[Sparky617]

How hard would it be to just open up the wall and hang drywall when the electrical work is completed? I would not install a new panel behind a water heater that limits access and isn't to code. The code exists for a reason. Also, when selling, the original equipment would be grandfathered in, a clearly new electrical panel installed improperly would be a huge red flag to any inspector hired by the seller.

 

[tomtheelder2020]

How hard would it be to just open up the wall and hang drywall when the electrical work is completed?

With any option I had figures it likely that at least a little drywall work would be needed. I had not considered that opening it up to the ceiling might make it a easier to extend new wiring from the new junction box or subpanel (whichever way I go). I will talk to the electricians. Thanks for bringing this up.

 

[Snoonyb]

Thanks all for the input.

Re: GFCI receptacles. This all started when I was going to install one and found the existing wasn’t on a fuse circuit. It was to be the first of 10 GFCI receptacles I already purchased; I plan to replace ALL of the old receptacles.


No one responded to my idea of running a separate ground from a GFCI to the new breakers – so I will take that to mean no one likes the idea.


Putting the new breakers behind the water heater isn’t to code – but it is a hell of a lot better than what I currently have. Accessing the wiring above the fuse box through the attic will be difficult but that is the choice I will likely make If the electrician thinks he can do it. Otherwise, the breakers go behind the water heater.

!st of all, the person who installed you 200A panel, should have included 2 driven grnd rods, a min. of 7' apart and bonded together, had it been I, I would have, ALSO bonded the fused subpanel to one of the grnd rods.

As for a grnd from a GFCI, ask your elec. contractor.

 

[tomtheelder2020]

the person who installed you 200A panel, should have included 2 driven grnd rods, a min. of 7' apart and bonded together

That was 32 years ago and he did install one ground rod which I presume was code at the time because it passed inspection. Do you think it is worthwhile for me to install a 2nd ground rod - i.e. will it really be better, not just meet code?

I would have, ALSO bonded the fused subpanel to one of the grnd rods.

Would it work to bond the subpanel to the main panel?

 

[Snoonyb]

That was 32 years ago and he did install one ground rod which I presume was code at the time because it passed inspection. Do you think it is worthwhile for me to install a 2nd ground rod - i.e. will it really be better, not just meet code?


Would it work to bond the subpanel to the main panel?

Codes are adopted by governing agencies and In my practice, dual grnd rods became a methedology in the 1980's for 200A residential services and bonding of sub-panels seldom occurred, except in commercial application, because the A base and fuse load centers were eliminated, along with UFER and water pipe grounding.

 

[Sparky617]

My house was built in 1999 with a 200 amp service and a single ground rod. The copper plumbing is bond to the electrical ground but the water service into the house is plastic. The subpanels (2 of them) are grounded to the main panel under the electric meter. The neutrals are not bonded to the ground until they reach the main panel. One subpanel is in the attached garage and handles the branch circuits for most of the house. The second subpanel was installed in the basement by me and supplies the basement branch circuits and the basement HVAC system. The main HVAC systems are powered by breakers in the main panel located about 25 feet away from the outdoor units.

 

[Eddie_T]

Maybe kinda off topic but Mike Holt ran some grounding tests finding that a couple of ground rods driven 50' into the ground had resistances of 16,4Ω and 21.7Ω. I suspect the resistance of my single 8' ground rod might be quite high.

 

[bud16415]

Maybe kinda off topic but Mike Holt ran some grounding tests finding that a couple of ground rods driven 50' into the ground had resistances of 16,4Ω and 21.7Ω. I suspect the resistance of my single 8' ground rod might be quite high.

Mike has done a lot of studies on ground rods and I have read some of it.



I think soil condition and ground moisture content has a lot to do with it.



I have also read where he found more than one ground rod placed to far apart can cause problems as they have different potentials or something. Grounding is a science in itself.