Anchoring grab bars to tile?

[zepper]

Hey guys,

I'm taking a guess and posting this here rather than in Masonry or Plumbing sections, but feel free to move it if necessary.

I want to add grab bars to our tiled shower. However, my stud finder gave me false results (it was sure a stud was there!) and I've drilled my first hole to find only insulation. I've now learned that stud finders don't work well on tile and backing board over studs, so I expect at least some of my remaining holes will be studless too.

Our handyman friend who did the tiling says this is okay, because the thick, cemented tile and backing board are sturdy enough to anchor to—but he's not sure what kind of anchors I should use.

My wife stopped at our building-supply store and they sent her along with some of these:



...(but the 2" version, not 3"). But they're meant for drywall, so I'd need to somehow cut off "fins" under the caps, which are designed to hook into drywall and wouldn't work on tile, right?

Or are there better anchors for this? Lead masonry anchors, maybe? Or do they need to be totally enclosed by the wall material (e.g. brick, stone)?

The bars came with pretty hefty screws (nearly 1/4" across the thread), so whatever I use, I figure they should come with or accommodate similar screws. That counts out the vast majority of anchors I've seen (most of which are clearly for drywall anyway).

Thanks for your ideas!

 

[havasu]

I'd plunge a coat hanger in the hole with a 12" bend, so you can locate your nearest stud, so half will be secured into a wood stud, IF you run the handle in a diagonal position. Also, Check for plumbing and electrical before using those screws, which work great.

 

[Steve123]

I agree with havasu --- far preferred to mount to structure.

I pulled up the installation instructions for the grab bars I have, fully expecting to see them SPECIFY that grab bars MUST be mounted to structure.
But to my surprise Moen does make an anchor that allows mounting their grab bars without hitting a stud.
Note the limitations on load and substrate at lower left of sheet.
Probably you would have to use the Moen grab bars (very common, available everywhere).

 

[Snoonyb]

Hey guys,

I'm taking a guess and posting this here rather than in Masonry or Plumbing sections, but feel free to move it if necessary.

I want to add grab bars to our tiled shower. However, my stud finder gave me false results (it was sure a stud was there!) and I've drilled my first hole to find only insulation. I've now learned that stud finders don't work well on tile and backing board over studs, so I expect at least some of my remaining holes will be studless too.

Our handyman friend who did the tiling says this is okay, because the thick, cemented tile and backing board are sturdy enough to anchor to—but he's not sure what kind of anchors I should use.

My wife stopped at our building-supply store and they sent her along with some of these:

View attachment 31568

...(but the 2" version, not 3"). But they're meant for drywall, so I'd need to somehow cut off "fins" under the caps, which are designed to hook into drywall and wouldn't work on tile, right?

Or are there better anchors for this? Lead masonry anchors, maybe? Or do they need to be totally enclosed by the wall material (e.g. brick, stone)?

The bars came with pretty hefty screws (nearly 1/4" across the thread), so whatever I use, I figure they should come with or accommodate similar screws. That counts out the vast majority of anchors I've seen (most of which are clearly for drywall anyway).

Thanks for your ideas!

If your tile is too the ceiling, then locate the studs on the reverse side of those walls, and if not, above the tile.

 

[zepper]

Muchas gracias, guys, very helpful.

 

[billshack]

we used to install bathrooms for handicapped people . over the 2x4 studs we would install 3/4 plywood all over like dry wall, then dry wall. so that no matter where you had full support. we also did the same in bar bathrooms

 

[havasu]

we used to install bathrooms for handicapped people . over the 2x4 studs we would install 3/4 plywood all over like dry wall, then dry wall. so that no matter where you had full support. we also did the same in bar bathrooms

That is something I wish more people would consider!

 

[zepper]

we used to install bathrooms for handicapped people . over the 2x4 studs we would install 3/4 plywood all over like dry wall, then dry wall. so that no matter where you had full support. we also did the same in bar bathrooms

That would've been a good idea.

 

[PJB12]

A company called "WingIts" makes a variety of grab bar anchors for when no studs exist.

I've used some of their models for electrical disconnects, transfer switch, etc. mounting onto hollow walls in wash-down or explosion proof areas where penetrating the electrical device's enclosure was not allowed. They certainly do work on these items that have handles that get jerked on or cabinets that get smashed into by fork trucks & loads.

A screen shot of part of a page from WingIts.com is below. There are many other companies who make similar item.s



PLAN B: Toggle Bolts
I've seen some places where there was an escutcheon sized or larger piece of plastic, chrome, stainless or opaque glass behind the anchor point of the bar. To me, that means the installer used toggle bolts. The plate was to hide the large holes for the toggle bolts.

Toggle bolts are very, very strong. Depending on manufacturer, a 1/4-20 has about 300 pound pull-out of the wing, (Out of the wall depends on the wall.)

Wejit makes a spiffy keen toggle bolt called "Snap Toggle" which requires a smaller hole than standard toggle bolts. As a bonus, it has a zip line so the wing isn't lost when the bolt is removed. I think I've seen it in other brand names, too.



I hope this helps make your installation easier.

Please Enjoy Today!
Paul

 

[Jeff Handy]

I have used 3/8 inch or 1/2 inch toggle bolts many times.
Because the drilled hole is so big, you have to drill it nearer to the center of the grab bar mounting spot.
Once the big toggle is inserted and pops open, you can slide the toggle bolt nearer to the center of the screw hole location.
Otherwise, the drilled holes will often not be covered by the escutcheon.
Always drill a smaller hole first, in case you luck out and hit a stud.
Also, I only used two toggle bolts per location, I used a straight blue plastic ribbed mounting anchor for 1/4 inch screws in the third mounting hole.
This keeps the grab bar from shifting if the toggle bolts get slightly loose over the years.
Fill the holes with clear silicone, and cover all screws etc with silicone, so the mounts will not rust away.
Most toggle bolts are just zinc coated, not stainless.

 

[Ron Van]

I'm building a shower right now and I installed supports where I thought I might want grab bars now or in the future. The secret is to document where the supports are so you can find them after the tile is installed.

 

[Jeff Handy]

Don’t tile over that hammer, haha!

 

[Ron Van]

Don’t tile over that hammer, haha!

No! Never tile over a hammer! You tile around it!

 

[zepper]

A company called "WingIts" makes a variety of grab bar anchors for when no studs exist... I've used some of their models for electrical disconnects, transfer switch, etc. mounting onto hollow walls in wash-down or explosion proof areas where penetrating the electrical device's enclosure was not allowed...

PLAN B: Toggle Bolts
I've seen some places where there was an escutcheon sized or larger piece of plastic, chrome, stainless or opaque glass behind the anchor point of the bar. To me, that means the installer used toggle bolts...

I appreciate that, but I'm not worried about finding strong enough anchors—I'm wondering if it's a good idea to attach the bars to nothing but tile cemented to backing board. I can visualize the grab bar pulling out with the anchors still "securely" attached to it.

However, a couple of you now have implied that, as long as the anchors are sturdy enough, the tile mounting is okay. (And yes, of course, I may luck out and actually hit a stud on one or both handles too!) So I'll go ahead and do that—probably with the Wingit anchors you mentioned, Paul. Thanks!

I'm building a shower right now and I installed supports where I thought I might want grab bars now or in the future. The secret is to document where the supports are so you can find them after the tile is installed.

Indeed, the wisdom of hindsight!

 

[zepper]

No! Never tile over a hammer! You tile around it!

This reminds me of the stories you hear about surgeons leaving sponges 'n' stuff behind when they sew up the patient.

Except with tools, all you have to do is shrug and go back to the building-supply store—which, let's face it, all of us want excuses to do anyway, because you can never have too many tools. In fact, that may be a good reason to tell your partner why you need multiple versions of stuff... In the heat of serious work, you can't keep track of everything.

 

[PJB12]

"I'm wondering if it's a good idea to attach the bars to nothing but tile cemented to backing board."

There are no worries to be had, Zepper. With most of the anchors suggested by the people here, nothing is pulling on the actual tile. They "Splat Out" and pull on the back of the wall board, spreading the load.

The ones to avoid are the anchors which are sleeves that expand against the sides of the holes, like Vinyl Wall Anchors. They are OK, but not terribly strong.


The problem you face is getting enough holes for enough fasteners in the space the escutcheon allows. That's where Wing-Its and the other brands are helpful.
In the Wing-It chart I posted, the item GBW40 is very strong and is hidden by most escutcheons. Other brands might be less expensive.

A miracle if if happens, but is there any way you can reach in through the access panel for the tub faucet and hold a board in place inside the wall while someone drills & screws the grab bar to the wall? The board will spread the load far & wide.

Paul
PS: When you buy a grab bar, I highly recommend the kind where the part that screws to the wall is permanently attached (welded) to the grabbing bar. The escutcheon slides over the mounting plate.
Some bars & mounting plates are held to each other with set screws. Those are scary and do come apart (as one did my house).