# 2 / 15amp Breakers Joined..



## NorPlan (Dec 17, 2015)

:help:  Long & Short of it is a 2 / 15 amp Joined Breakers Popped... Have Flipped On / Off a few times .. No Resistence, won't Click On as it should.. Would that mean possibly the Breaker is Toast ??


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## JoeD (Dec 17, 2015)

Or there is a short and it tripping instantly.


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## nealtw (Dec 17, 2015)

Make sure you have pushed both breakers all the way to off before turning them to on.


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## kok328 (Dec 17, 2015)

Not sure what this breaker could be.  You've described a 2-pole breaker which would be for a 240V something.
Not big enough for typical 240V clothes dryer, electric stove, A/C compressor or base board heater.
Whatever this circuit is for, remove the load and then try to reset the breaker.  If no luck, then replace the breaker.


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## nealtw (Dec 17, 2015)

kok328 said:


> Not sure what this breaker could be.  You've described a 2-pole breaker which would be for a 240V something.
> Not big enough for typical 240V clothes dryer, electric stove, A/C compressor or base board heater.
> Whatever this circuit is for, remove the load and then try to reset the breaker.  If no luck, then replace the breaker.



Two circuits on a three wire are tied together.


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## beachguy005 (Dec 18, 2015)

I think what kok328 is saying the it's a 2p15 which is pretty odd.


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## NorPlan (Dec 18, 2015)

nealtw said:


> Two circuits on a three wire are tied together.



10-4 Have Flicked Breaker On / Off a Number of Times.. As I said there is No Resistence either direction as in doesn't Click into Position.. Open Concept , Kitchen / Livingroom.. Kitchen side , 1 wall a Wall Plug either side of the Sink.. Other Wall a Plug on either side where the Stove Top Incert used to be.. Those Two Plugs are connected to the Blown Breaker, Fridge is along the same wall with it's own plug, didn't interfere??. House was Built Mid 70's , Brand Name on the Panel is (Commander QM40200) White Wire is into the Ground Bar, Black is into the Rightside Breaker / Red is into the Leftside Breaker..


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## JoeD (Dec 18, 2015)

Could be a bad breaker. They do go bad sometimes.


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## bud16415 (Dec 18, 2015)

It is a bad breaker. If it is flipping back and forth without the contact pressure it is a mechanical failure inside it. Trip one of the other ones on and off if that one has a free feel compared to the others  it is 100% bad IMO.


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## slownsteady (Dec 18, 2015)

If the old stove top was electric, maybe; but otherwise why a 2-pole for outlets? Does it split to 110 someplace downstream?


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## nealtw (Dec 18, 2015)

slownsteady said:


> If the old stove top was electric, maybe; but otherwise why a 2-pole for outlets? Does it split to 110 someplace downstream?



The kitchen outlets are split, all the tops on one circuit and the bottoms on the other, with the idea, you could use the toaster and mixer at the same time in the same outlet.


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## slownsteady (Dec 18, 2015)

nealtw said:


> The kitchen outlets are split, all the tops on one circuit and the bottoms on the other, with the idea, you could use the toaster and mixer at the same time in the same outlet.



Has Norplan confirmed this?


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## nealtw (Dec 18, 2015)

slownsteady said:


> Has Norplan confirmed this?



the house was built in the 70s


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## bud16415 (Dec 18, 2015)

slownsteady said:


> If the old stove top was electric, maybe; but otherwise why a 2-pole for outlets? Does it split to 110 someplace downstream?



I think what he has is a multi-wire branch circuit.


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## nealtw (Dec 18, 2015)

He could have a short in one box that fried both breakers.


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## kok328 (Dec 18, 2015)

If I'm following correctly, you have a 2-pole 15 amp breaker that has tripped and will not reset or is turn off and will not turn on.
This breaker is feeding outlets, lights or both.
If this is the case, then the 2-pole breaker will need to be replaced with (2) 1-pole breakers in its place.


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## JoeD (Dec 18, 2015)

slownsteady said:


> If the old stove top was electric, maybe; but otherwise why a 2-pole for outlets? Does it split to 110 someplace downstream?



Split wired 15 amp receptacles are a code option in Ontario kitchens. Until about 2000 when 20 amps became allowed they were the only option for kitchen counter receptacles.


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## NorPlan (Dec 19, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> I think what he has is a multi-wire branch circuit.



.  As mentioned previous the House was Built / Wired Mid 70's the Panel & Existing Breakers were Mfg. by Commander at that time, which is now part of Eaton...  The Blown Breaker is a 2 pole BQL  15 amp.... How it is Wired into the Panel, (1) Ground Wire is paired with a group of other Grounds and placed at the end of the Panel.. (2) White Wire is into the Ground Bar... (3) Black Wire is into the Rightside Breaker .. (4) Red Wire is into the Leftside Breaker...


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## kok328 (Dec 19, 2015)

A picture of this breaker would be really cool, I don't think I've ever seen one like your describing.


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## Snoonyb (Dec 19, 2015)

NorPlan said:


> .  As mentioned previous the House was Built / Wired Mid 70's the Panel & Existing Breakers were Mfg. by Commander at that time, which is now part of Eaton...  The Blown Breaker is a 2 pole BQL  15 amp.... How it is Wired into the Panel, (1) Ground Wire is paired with a group of other Grounds and placed at the end of the Panel.. (2) White Wire is into the Ground Bar... (3) Black Wire is into the Rightside Breaker .. (4) Red Wire is into the Leftside Breaker...



Good, the whole story.

While it appears that both the GFI breakers have failed, why simultaneously?

I would first unload the breakers at the panel, wait about 5min. and if they then do not reset, replace the breaker, in kind or with 2 individual.

I would then proceed to the dual gang box in the kitchen where these 2 circuits enter and open the connections, prior to energizing either breaker.

Because these both failed simultaneously, I suspect that the bond strap on one of the recep. may not have been completely separated, or if the grnds. were joined with a bond bushing and not properly stuffed into the box.


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## NorPlan (Dec 19, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> It is a bad breaker. If it is flipping back and forth without the contact pressure it is a mechanical failure inside it. Trip one of the other ones on and off if that one has a free feel compared to the others  it is 100% bad IMO.




:beer:  Update and Thanks for the Comebacks.. Switched Out the Breaker, All is Good .. Wife is Happy we're back in Business..


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## nealtw (Dec 20, 2015)

kok328 said:


> A picture of this breaker would be really cool, I don't think I've ever seen one like your describing.



This explains it. The 2 breakers have a link os if one kicks they both kick.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po2P-TC9gug[/ame]


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## NorPlan (Dec 21, 2015)

nealtw said:


> This explains it. The 2 breakers have a link os if one kicks they both kick.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po2P-TC9gug




Yep.. That's To Code here... Using 14/3 Wire... Considering as mentioned the Brand Name of Panel & Breakers is Now Defunct and Cross Referenced to Eaton Products now.. And the actual true age of Blown Breaker, It just outright popped completely..

@nealtw.. Sorry I'm still learning Tech Savey (Copy / Paste) and all that stuff..lol..  Along that one wall starting from the left is the Fridge on it's own plug, the 2 Plugs about 8' apart (Breaker for them Blew) between them is a 3 level Hood Fan / Light (To No Where)..lol..  In our Quest to Fight Back against Wynn and her Band of Cronnies (Hydro One) we disconnected the Stove Top Incert and now use 2 Salton Brand Induction Touch Screen Hot Plates.. Sorry for the Drivel ..lol.. Hence needed both Hot Plates On, one was plugged into Left Plug other into Right Plug.. Shortly thereafter Breaker Popped.. As I said it must have been time for the Breaker to Give Up..lol.. Cheers Thanks. :beer:


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## bud16415 (Dec 21, 2015)

Its just a multi wire branch circuit and doesn&#8217;t have to be done to the same outlet like the video shows with breaking out the connection tab. 

I have never used them as it&#8217;s not a big deal in my mind to run two cables but I guess it has it&#8217;s place. For the pros a question. When you run one to a kitchen and the first outlet has to be a GFCI how do you handle that? Do you go into a double box and have two GFCI&#8217;s in the same Jbox?


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## nealtw (Dec 21, 2015)

How many watts do the hot plates take? that"s been replaced here with 20 gfci on 12 wire


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## Snoonyb (Dec 21, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> Its just a multi wire branch circuit and doesnt have to be done to the same outlet like the video shows with breaking out the connection tab.
> 
> I have never used them as its not a big deal in my mind to run two cables but I guess it has its place. For the pros a question. When you run one to a kitchen and the first outlet has to be a GFCI how do you handle that? Do you go into a double box and have two GFCIs in the same Jbox?



That's true when you are using the recep. to protect the downstream recep., however in his case the breaker is protecting both the top and bottom recep. and there are the tags indicating the protection exists.

Were it I, I would not have replaced the breaker in kind, and instead employed 2 separate GFCI breakers, which in the future, would afford you continued power, relieving the "immediacy" of the happy wife-happy life syndrome.


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## bud16415 (Dec 21, 2015)

Snoonyb said:


> That's true when you are using the recep. to protect the downstream recep., however in his case the breaker is protecting both the top and bottom recep. and there are the tags indicating the protection exists.
> 
> Were it I, I would not have replaced the breaker in kind, and instead employed 2 separate GFCI breakers, which in the future, would afford you continued power, relieving the "immediacy" of the happy wife-happy life syndrome.



So its to code to have 2 independent GFI breakers feeding one outlet. I would think that could be a danger as you would see one tripped or trip one to do a repair and the other half would be hot. I thought in all cases the trip handle to both breakers had to be joined. I have seen copper wire joining them but I dont think thats to code also. 

If I was doing a multi wire branch to a kitchen I would think I would go to a double box first and two GFCI first then to other outlets as required.  I dont think there is a multi wire GFCI outlet but I dont know.


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## JoeD (Dec 21, 2015)

2 independent GFCI will not work with MWBC. You must use a double pole GFCI.

You must remember the OP is from Ontario. We have different rules for kitchen receptacles.
Direct from the ESASAFE site (ontario code authourity)



> Question
> I understand the Code requires GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) protection of receptacles next to my kitchen sink. Can I install a 15 amp GFCI type receptacle at these outlets?
> Answer
> 
> ...


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## Snoonyb (Dec 21, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> So its to code to have 2 independent GFI breakers feeding one outlet. I would think that could be a danger as you would see one tripped or trip one to do a repair and the other half would be hot. I thought in all cases the trip handle to both breakers had to be joined. I have seen copper wire joining them but I dont think thats to code also.



True, and while instead of using that method I would have had 2 separate circuits feeding 2 individual banks of receptacles.

With the breaker off, I still use my meter.

However, as JOE D points out, there code takes care of that. I think the practicality is in the initial cost.

The copper wire tie suffices, while not applauded. 



bud16415 said:


> If I was doing a multi wire branch to a kitchen I would think I would go to a double box first and two GFCI first then to other outlets as required.  I dont think there is a multi wire GFCI outlet but I dont know.



Square D offers multi circuit GFCI breakers in both plug in and bolt on, However I imagine the recep. would be too cumbersome.

While I'd caution any DIY from working behind the dead front panel, this one was cautious enough to be successful.


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## bud16415 (Dec 21, 2015)

Snoonyb said:


> While I'd caution any DIY from working behind the dead front panel, this one was cautious enough to be successful.



There are all levels of DIYers and that is something we all have to be careful in giving advice to assure we know the skill level of who we are advising. There are quite a few people coming here that shouldnt even be changing an outlet and others capable of rewiring a house. Last year I added a 50 amp breaker and ran a service to a dual breaker GFCI panel and on to my hot tub. I didnt have any concerns doing that as a DIYer / homeowner but there are quite a few I wouldnt recommend doing it. 

Some members you get to know and have an idea they will safely do the job others if you dont know or cant figure out you just have to do your best and suggest they get some help. You can get electrocuted just as easily at one end of the wire as the other.


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## Snoonyb (Dec 21, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> There are all levels of DIYers and that is something we all have to be careful in giving advice to assure we know the skill level of who we are advising. There are quite a few people coming here that shouldnt even be changing an outlet and others capable of rewiring a house. Last year I added a 50 amp breaker and ran a service to a dual breaker GFCI panel and on to my hot tub. I didnt have any concerns doing that as a DIYer / homeowner but there are quite a few I wouldnt recommend doing it.
> 
> Some members you get to know and have an idea they will safely do the job others if you dont know or cant figure out you just have to do your best and suggest they get some help. You can get electrocuted just as easily at one end of the wire as the other.



So, you wouldn't recommend testing with your tongue, as you would a 9v battery, or consolidating a 19 conductor #4, like threading a shoe lace?

How droll and unimaginative.


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## NorPlan (Dec 22, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> There are all levels of DIYers and that is something we all have to be careful in giving advice to assure we know the skill level of who we are advising. There are quite a few people coming here that shouldnt even be changing an outlet and others capable of rewiring a house. Last year I added a 50 amp breaker and ran a service to a dual breaker GFCI panel and on to my hot tub. I didnt have any concerns doing that as a DIYer / homeowner but there are quite a few I wouldnt recommend doing it.
> 
> Some members you get to know and have an idea they will safely do the job others if you dont know or cant figure out you just have to do your best and suggest they get some help. You can get electrocuted just as easily at one end of the wire as the other.




:agree:  @bud16415.. Absolutely , While I could only Pass On from Related Experience should I catch someone's Query.. I Appreciate The Comebacks to my Own Situations.. Back in the mid 80's we had purchased a home we'd class as a Handyman's Special , it came with a 60 Amp Service.. Longtime Family Friend and Electrical Engineer by Trade got me started and gave me a Book by F.W.Knight.. The objective was to Replace with 200 Amp Service.. He walked me through your Basic Rewire / ReRoot , Stove , Clothes Dryer, and Kitchen .. 

Fast Forward to the Millium Times ..lol... Codes & Methods have changed and Management wants me to stay alive so someone can pay the Bills..lol.. Our present home The Panel is Neat & Tidy, it took me all of 14 minutes to swap out the 2 Pole Breaker.. Just unscrewed the 2 pole Breaker from the Bar , Unscrewed the Black & Red Wires.. Placed them in their Respective Slots in New 2 pole Breaker screwing all back in Place.. Existing Wiring was all good..:trophy:


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## NorPlan (Dec 22, 2015)

nealtw said:


> How many watts do the hot plates take? that"s been replaced here with 20 gfci on 12 wire



 The Induction Hot Plates are from Salton Products .. Touch Screen (C' / F') Settings .. 120Volt / 60Hz / 1800Watt... Canadian Tire Regular Price $89.00 ea Cdn...  As I mentioned when both Hot Plates are being used they are each plugged into a Separate Plug Receptacle alone..


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## nealtw (Dec 22, 2015)

NorPlan said:


> The Induction Hot Plates are from Salton Products .. Touch Screen (C' / F') Settings .. 120Volt / 60Hz / 1800Watt... Canadian Tire Regular Price $89.00 ea Cdn...  As I mentioned when both Hot Plates are being used they are each plugged into a Separate Plug Receptacle alone..



One up and one down I hope. I think 1800 watts equall about 15 amps so you are pushing the limit, nothing else plugged into these circuits?


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## JoeD (Dec 22, 2015)

Now you see an example of why split wired 15 amp counter receptacles are in the code. You could plug both of them into one receptacle without any problems. Same thing happens with toaster and microwave on the same counter.


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## NorPlan (Dec 23, 2015)

nealtw said:


> One up and one down I hope. I think 1800 watts equall about 15 amps so you are pushing the limit, nothing else plugged into these circuits?




10-4.. We figured considering the Maximum Draw from these Hot Plates If & When turned up to their full potential, Best to be plugged in alone.. Just the layout of available Wall Recepticals , cord wouldn't reach from 2nd Hot Plate to Same Wall Receptical when Needed..lol.. (Wall Receptical each side of where Stove Top Incert used tobe)... Cheers Thanks for your Comebacks..  :beer:


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## nealtw (Dec 23, 2015)

NorPlan said:


> 10-4.. We figured considering the Maximum Draw from these Hot Plates If & When turned up to their full potential, Best to be plugged in alone.. Just the layout of available Wall Recepticals , cord wouldn't reach from 2nd Hot Plate to Same Wall Receptical when Needed..lol.. (Wall Receptical each side of where Stove Top Incert used tobe)... Cheers Thanks for your Comebacks..  :beer:



So you have a stove outlet sitting there?


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## NorPlan (Dec 24, 2015)

nealtw said:


> So you have a stove outlet sitting there?



. There is a Junction Box on the Backwall (under the counter), Wiring from the Stove Top lead to.. The Wire for the Stove Top has been Marretted and Turned Off at the Panel with a "This Stays Off" note over the switch..lol..  We are exploring a few Options / Angles as to make this Estedically Pleasing ... And should we decide to Sell down the road it will be a simple and easy task to install Stove Top back in place..


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