# No permits found for installation...



## o2284200 (Apr 11, 2016)

In 2012 I bought the house that you all have been helping repair, which was built in 1970.   Everything was original except the central HVAC, which according to the stickers on it was manufactured in 2010 and installed by XYZ Co but I could not find a permit with the local municipality for the installation.  The home inspector said it wasn't a big deal; I could not be held responsible nor get in any sort of trouble nor incur a fine, if it wasn't installed up to code before I bought the house.  

OK...Great!

How much responsibility does the installer "XYZ Co." have, if it wasn't installed up to code?


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## slownsteady (Apr 11, 2016)

Do you know if you even need a permit to replace an existing system? If the previous owner had a problem with the original unit, he has the option to replace it...why would he need a permit?


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## o2284200 (Apr 11, 2016)

Yes, a permit is needed to install a new HVAC system, even if it's replacing an existing system.


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## nealtw (Apr 11, 2016)

Pull the permit have it inspected, if it fails call xyz.


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## havasu (Apr 11, 2016)

I'm scratching my head on the necessity of a permit. Let's say your compressor dies and you need to replace it. Is a permit needed? Let's go one step further. You blow your 50 amp fuses to the HVAC.... is a permit needed? 

I'm sorry. I love to have a safe, well constructed house. However, I know for a fact that the city bozos know far less than the experts we generally hire to replace our outdated systems. 

Sorry, I just needed to vent. Now, let's proceed with our normal broadcasting here.


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## nealtw (Apr 11, 2016)

havasu said:


> I'm scratching my head on the necessity of a permit. Let's say your compressor dies and you need to replace it. Is a permit needed? Let's go one step further. You blow your 50 amp fuses to the HVAC.... is a permit needed?
> 
> I'm sorry. I love to have a safe, well constructed house. However, I know for a fact that the city bozos know far less than the experts we generally hire to replace our outdated systems.
> 
> Sorry, I just needed to vent. Now, let's proceed with our normal broadcasting here.



He just wants to know it is up to code and safe.


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## Snoonyb (Apr 11, 2016)

havasu said:


> I'm scratching my head on the necessity of a permit. Let's say your compressor dies and you need to replace it. Is a permit needed? Let's go one step further. You blow your 50 amp fuses to the HVAC.... is a permit needed?



Repairs to existing systems, *which do not affect life and safety*, will not illicit the requirement for a permit. 



havasu said:


> I'm sorry. I love to have a safe, well constructed house. However, I know for a fact that the city bozos know far less than the experts we generally hire to replace our outdated systems.



The key word in that statement is,"replace," and that will illicit the requirement for a permit. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*The home inspector said it wasn't a big deal*;

This is why you should always ask for a copy of all permits issued to the address.

There also rules of disclosure for realtors which creates responsibility.

*I could not be held responsible nor get in any sort of trouble nor incur a fine, if it wasn't installed up to code before I bought the house.* 

Probably not directly, however, how much $ are you willing to give away, to a prospective buyer who asks for permits, in a negotiated sale, the cost of a city inspection, subsequent permit, possible corrective repairs?

Or taking it off the market and listing it a again as an as listing?

Your inspector did you a disservice, because he had nothing to lose.

Who hired him, or recommended him, may give some incite to the depth of the corruption.

*How much responsibility does the installer "XYZ Co." have, if it wasn't installed up to code?*

Each state has prescribed contractor warranties and if this discovery falls within that time frame or if they are a local business, can have an influence.

Also an agressive city attny can as well.


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## beachguy005 (Apr 11, 2016)

So it was probably installed 6 years ago, for an owner that sold the house 4 years ago, in an area of Florida that has more AC contractors than palmetto bugs.  The original installer could always say it was installed to code and how could you prove otherwise?  Previous owner could of had 3 or 4 other contractors, licensed or otherwise, service it.
I think you're making too big of an issue out of it.  Anyone looking at a house in south Florida has... how old is the AC unit and when will have to replace it, as one of their first question. You've probably got a few years life in it but you'll end up replacing it before getting any remedy from pursuing the original contractor.


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## Chris (Apr 11, 2016)

Here you do not need a permit to replace a failed system. Mine was replaced 6 months ago. You could have had an original ac that was replaced probably a few times in the homes life. I would find it odd that you need a permit for one but in some cities around here you need one for a microwave replacement.


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## Snoonyb (Apr 11, 2016)

I'm interested, what city in CA. has waived the title 24 requirements?


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## o2284200 (Apr 11, 2016)

beachguy005 said:


> So it was probably installed 6 years ago, for an owner that sold the house 4 years ago, in an area of Florida that has more AC contractors than palmetto bugs.  The original installer could always say it was installed to code and how could you prove otherwise?


If it came down to it, I believe the burden of proof would be on the contractor to prove by way of the permit that they installed it to code.


beachguy005 said:


> Previous owner could of had 3 or 4 other contractors, licensed or otherwise, service it.


 Yes, he could of but I don't believe so...he still lives 2 houses down from me and still uses XYZ, co.



beachguy005 said:


> I think you're making too big of an issue out of it.  Anyone looking at a house in south Florida has... how old is the AC unit and when will have to replace it, as one of their first question. You've probably got a few years life in it but you'll end up replacing it before getting any remedy from pursuing the original contractor.


 I haven't stated the specifics of any issues yet so to say I'm making it too big, might be premature.  Buying a house anywhere, especially South FL with a/c only 2 years old is usually a good thing...But, thanks for your input!! :beer:


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## o2284200 (Apr 11, 2016)

Where I live, a permit is needed to replace the complete existing HVAC system with an complete new HVAC system.  With that being said, What would you do, if a permit was required but no permit was pulled and now the same issues on the system keep failing over and over and over but XYZ, co keeps f*cking with you?


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## Chris (Apr 11, 2016)

Was it the condenser outside replace or did they also replace the forced air and other stuff in your attic?

Is it still under warranty six years down the road? Not trying to pick on you, just trying get the whole story. What is the install company saying about your complaint? And what is your complaint? Is it just the permit issue or is there a problem with the system?


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## Chris (Apr 11, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> I'm interested, what city in CA. has waived the title 24 requirements?



I am not familiar with Title 24? Is that the code for AC stuff?


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## Snoonyb (Apr 11, 2016)

o2284200 said:


> now the same issues on the system keep failing over and over and over but XYZ, co keeps f*cking with you?



Not a lot of detail there, however the key to success is documentation.

Do not detail any interaction you have had with xyz.

Obtain several estimates from other vendors to accomplish any corrective action needed, have then detail the cause and repairs necessary on the estimate.


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## Snoonyb (Apr 11, 2016)

Chris said:


> I am not familiar with Title 24? Is that the code for AC stuff?



It's the CA energy code.


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## Chris (Apr 11, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> I'm interested, what city in CA. has waived the title 24 requirements?



I just looked it up and see where they are requiring it along with a bunch of other nonsense. I am guessing the AC guy for my home warranty company was not telling the truth when he said we did not need one for the condenser replacement. I did not have my forced air or anything else replaced.

I just read an article about how most companies are not pulling the permits because of the leak tests and how the requirements are just costing everyone more money and making the contractor look like they are trying to gouge people. Don't know how I feel about title 24. Like the idea but not the plan of action.


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## Chris (Apr 11, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> It's the CA energy code.



OK Did some more reading and the reason I did not need a permit is becasue I have less than 40 of ductwork in unconditioned spaces like attics, garages, crawlspaces, basements, or outside the building. Title 24 was not required according to title 24.

Mine was added on maybe 10-15 years ago and only has about 30 of ducting total in my tiny house.


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## Chris (Apr 11, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> It's the CA energy code.



It is also only required in these climate areas. Guess they are not worried about the use of AC in beach cities.

 (climate zones 2, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16)


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## Snoonyb (Apr 11, 2016)

I agree, however, this is the Nanny state of Nanny states, controlled by gov. moonbeam, a "dismalcrate", and led the move to abolish the incandescent bulb, resulting in higher utility bills.


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## Chris (Apr 11, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> I agree, however, this is the Nanny state of Nanny states, controlled by gov. moonbeam, a "dismalcrate", and led the move to abolish the incandescent bulb, resulting in higher utility bills.



I have a package of six of those bulbs, what are they worth to you? :hide:

We are the leaders of nonsense.:help:


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## Snoonyb (Apr 11, 2016)

Chris said:


> I just looked it up and see where they are requiring it along with a bunch of other nonsense. I am guessing the AC guy for my home warranty company was not telling the truth when he said we did not need one for the condenser replacement. I did not have my forced air or anything else replaced.
> 
> I just read an article about how most companies are not pulling the permits because of the leak tests and how the requirements are just costing everyone more money and making the contractor look like they are trying to gouge people. Don't know how I feel about title 24. Like the idea but not the plan of action.



That as well as the evacuation of "exempt" coolant, their disposal  and SEER, elect. disconnect.


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## Chris (Apr 11, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> That as well as the evacuation of "exempt" coolant, their disposal  and SEER, elect. disconnect.



I hate to see this place in 30 years.


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## Snoonyb (Apr 11, 2016)

I'm loading up on Waste Management stock, because when the San Andreas pops, west will be WM and east will be annexed by Arizona and Nevada.


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## Chris (Apr 11, 2016)

I'll take Arizona please.


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## o2284200 (Apr 11, 2016)

Chris said:


> Was it the condenser outside replace or did they also replace the forced air and other stuff in your attic?
> 
> Is it still under warranty six years down the road? Not trying to pick on you, just trying get the whole story. What is the install company saying about your complaint? And what is your complaint? Is it just the permit issue or is there a problem with the system?



There are two separate issues that keep arising with one of my two air handlers.

ISSUE ONE:
(09/23/2013) 
The air handler fan stopped turning, the lines and floor around the air handler froze up and the a/c had to be turned off for days. I called XYZ, co. and they sent someone out.  He examined the system, found and replaced a bad "Evaporator Motor Control Module", which he told me "this motor was known for blowing or going bad".  REPAIR ESTIMATE TOTAL = $180 ..PAID IN FULL  [Parts: Under warranty 10 years from original install date + Labor: 2 hours @ $90/hour (1 hour to diagnose, 1 hour to pick up part locally and install)].

(6/2/2015)
The air handler fan stopped turning, the lines and floor around the same air handler froze up, again.   I called XYZ, co. and told them that it appeared that the "Evaporator Motor Control Module" went bad again.  XYZ sent someone out, who examined the system, diagnosed nothing wrong, replaced nothing and by the time he left, the system was defrosted and working.  SERVICE CALL CHARGE = Labor for 1 hour @ $90...PAID IN FULL!  Within 2 hours, the same air handler fan stopped turning, the lines and floor around the air handler froze up, again.  I called XYZ, co. back and scheduled someone to come out the next day.

(6/3/2015)
XYZ, co. sent someone out, who examined the system, and even though there was no loss of display or sign of a low battery in the thermostat, he said he "replaced battery and fixed loose wire at thermostat."&#8230;by the time he left, the system had thawed out and was working.  SERVICE CALL CHARGE = labor 1 hour = $90, which I refused to pay.

(10/2015)
The air handler fan stopped turning, the lines and floor around the same air handler froze up, again.   I called XYZ, co. and told them that it appeared that the "Evaporator Motor Control Module" went bad again.    XYZ sent someone out, who examined the system, replaced nothing and agreed with me that the "Evaporator Motor Control Module" went bad again.  By the time he left, the system had thawed out and was working.  He left without presenting me a bill.  The next day, I got a call from XYZ, co with the REPAIR ESTIMATE TOTAL = $300 (Parts: No longer under 10 year warranty, for some reason + Labor).  

Hmm?  That's $120 more than the fist time (09/2013), when he charged me $180 to diagnose, pick up and install the part.  I called XYZ, co. with some questions, especially about the 10 year warranty on parts no longer being honored.  The rep on the phone said she wasn't able to answer my questions and would leave a message for someone, who could to call me back&#8230;I neither got a call back nor any further correspondence.

Fast forward 6 months, to this past week...I get a bill in the mail from XYZ, co. in the amount of $90 for the date of service 11/13/15..."Found Bad Evaporator Motor Control Module"&#8230;"Over 90 Days Past Due". 

It seems as if XYZ, co. is trying to set me up for collections and/or a mechanics lien, if possible.   F*ck that!    If I have any leverage on the XYZ, co, especially for not  pulling permits  on installation, when required, I want to know!

Isn't it bad enough, they got $90 out of me for finding NOTHING on 6/2/15, then tried to charge me another $90, the next day 6/3/15, for "replacing a battery in the thermostat" that showed no signs of needing to be replaced and "fixing a loose wire" that showed no signs of being loose, THEN no longer honoring the 10 year warranty on parts...Seriously?     

Your thoughts??

ISSUE TWO: 
  The same air handler keeps clogging and flooding the garage. Actually...Before I could close on the sale of this house in 2012, XYZ, co. had to come out and fix this very issue on the same air handler, which flooded the entire garage.    This issue happens each season and has been a PIA.   I believe this issue may be related to not properly installing the drain line...






Instead of going straight into the wall and attaching to the existing  drain line, XYZ, co. put a 90 down, a 90 left and a 90 into the wall, then I imagine they had to use at least one more 90 behind the wall to redirect the drain line under  the house (my new p-trap)...That's at least four 90's in a very short run, which I believe is where my clogs occur.  Also, XYZ installed the drain line without a clean  out..Sooo, there's THAT!    I keep wondering why each service tech makes a sound of frustration, when they see at this section.


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## slownsteady (Apr 11, 2016)

...drifting way off topic.

The devil is in the details, as you can see from Chris's posts. The answer lies in the FL code and if you really want the definitive answer, go to the book. You  also would have to define "Complete New HVAC System (see post 12). Could mean that if the ducts didn't move, no worries. Or it could mean anything at all.

We must've been typing at the same time. My post refers to the conversation above OP's last post.


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## Chris (Apr 11, 2016)

Those drains are a maintenance problem and need to be cleaned or blown out every year or so to keep from clogging up. If you are getting nowhere with that company and they are no longer honoring any warranty I would switch to a new service company. Heck I would anyway if I were having your troubles. In their defense unless you got the same tech each time it is hard to take the customers word for what is wrong although they should listen and at least look into it. (You know how many people out there google a couple things and think they know more than a guy who does this for a living?)

The problem with this is that you can only try and rectify any issues you personally have with them as in most cases original warranties are non transferable and once you bought that house they were off the hook for anything.

You do however have a leg to stand on if you have kept all your paperwork from the repairs you paid for that state any sort of warranty, I am pretty sure you have to honor anything you put in writing.

All in all if it were me I would not do business with them any more. Hopefully you can get this resolved with the owner of their shop and if non you always have small claims court if you have all your backup and proof.

I really don't think you can do any harm or have any leverage with the permit issue as you didn't own the home then or hire them. If you do your homework and find out they should have pulled a permit you can try and hold that over their head as leverage for honoring the warranty you have with them but don't hold your breath.


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## nealtw (Apr 11, 2016)

Perhaps the permit is required because the state got tired of hearing complaints about hacks ripping people off.

I will tell my story on service companies and drain system
My friend bought a house with an air handler in the attic. With in 2 weeks of living there they had water coming in the house. Playing havoc on the drywall at the top of a 15 ft high wall.
I popped over and we found that the one inch pipe with trap in was not draining anything the water running over the tray inside and was in the insulation inside the box and then finding it's way into the duct work..
So for the quick fix we cut the white pipe  and could not clear the line so I removed the pipe completely out of the handler which allowed water to drain in the over flow tray below and it could run out a different pipe.

That was my temp fix and I told him to get a pro in to fix things up.
The pro came in and spent hrs trying to unplug the original 1' drain line and replaced the insulation around so many feet of duct work and sold them some expensive light that would kill mold. 2 expensive bulbs per season. 
The pro came in once a year to service the unit.
Three or four years later, the pro was called in when the  water was running down the wall again.
He replaced the insulation again and fixed the pipe that I had removed, told my friend that the handler was at the end of it's life and sold him a used one that never got installed.

I went to make the attic access bigger so the new unit would fit. Unit was to big to go between trusses so that was not going to work so I went and had a look at what was going on.

When we took the door off we found water just at the top of the tray ready to overflow any second. 

We unplugged that drain and started looking at what was done. We found that the handler has two ports on that side, one slightly higher than the other, not hard to figure out what that was about.
We removed all the insulation inside the unit that was wet and replaced it with 1/2 foam, hooked the second drain
We found a chunk of expanded metal (aluminum) to lay in the drain pan so crap floating around in there would not find it's way to the drain, and if it did the second drain hole would then take over.
We moved the secondary pan 3 ft forward so it would actually catch the water where it did leak twice.
The bills for all of this was in the thousands and I am not sure what he did when he was servicing but his repairs where just fixing the symptoms and not the cause.
It ran all last summer checked often with no problem.
I have not received a good explanation for the trap in the line, I took it out.


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## Chris (Apr 11, 2016)

Do you think the trap was to keep bugs out?


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## nealtw (Apr 11, 2016)

They will be dry in the winter so even if the drain goes to the sewer?? I did here something about back pressure, when I questioned that I got the shrug of the shoulders. Would not matter if the had a removable trap.


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## Snoonyb (Apr 11, 2016)

Actually they cannot drain directly into a sewer.

It must enter the waste system prior to a water-primed trap.


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## Snoonyb (Apr 11, 2016)

o2284200 said:


> I keep wondering why each service tech makes a sound of frustration, when they see at this section.



How often and where is the return air filter.

There is a legal reference in all states, it's called, The Business and Professional Code.

There are professionals who are referred by attny to analyze systems, determine the cause of a failure, write a report and act as a professional witness.


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## o2284200 (Apr 12, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> ...Do not detail any interaction you have had with xyz...


 Please, expand on your thoughts here.


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## Snoonyb (Apr 12, 2016)

When you ask for another estimate and evaluation of the system, leave any reference and history you have had with XYZ, in that secret place, not even, your wife knows about


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## o2284200 (Apr 13, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> How often and where is the return air filter.



If you're asking "How often..." I replace the  return air filter? 
About once a month, in season (May-Dec); about once every 2-3 months, out of season.

Where is the return air filter?  
The return air filter is where it says "FILTER", on bottom right piece of metal just above the wood.







Snoonyb said:


> There is a legal reference in all states, it's called, The Business and Professional Code.
> 
> There are professionals who are referred by attny to analyze systems, determine the cause of a failure, write a report and act as a professional witness.



FWIW, I've started drafting an email to XYZ, co.  Since they're a licensed  contractor with the state, I'm thinking I can nicely bring up the fact  that I'm aware they cheated by not pulling the required permit(s); and  the fact that they continue to behave in what I consider unethical, if  not unlawful business practices...as well as "suggest" going to the  state licensing division as well as the BBB, might be in order.

With all that said, I'm more concerned with whether or not XYZ, co. has  the power to put a mechanics lien on my house than a credit hit of  collections.


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## oldognewtrick (Apr 13, 2016)

o2284200 said:


> With all that said, I'm more concerned with whether or not XYZ, co. has  the power to put a mechanics lien on my house than a credit hit of  collections.



Yes, they can lien your house IF it states in their agreement that you signed that they reserve the right to lien the property in the event of non payment. I would contact the state licensing board and codes dept. if it gets to that point.


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## o2284200 (Apr 13, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> ...
> *I could not be held responsible nor get in any sort of trouble nor incur a fine, if it wasn't installed up to code before I bought the house.*
> 
> Probably not directly, however, how much $ are you willing to give away, to a prospective buyer who asks for permits, in a negotiated sale, the cost of a city inspection, subsequent permit, possible corrective repairs?
> ...


This is one of the reasons, I want to know, if XYZ, co. has any responsibility here for not pulling the required permit(s)...I refuse to be taken advantage of, as a consumer.


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## o2284200 (Apr 13, 2016)

oldognewtrick said:


> Yes, they can lien your house IF it states in their agreement that you signed that they reserve the right to lien the property in the event of non payment. I would contact the state licensing board and codes dept. if it gets to that point.



XYZ, co.'s  agreement says "I have authority to order the work outlined   above, which has been satisfactorily completed.  I agree Seller retains   title to equipment/materials furnished until final payment is made.   If  payment is not made as agreed, seller can remove said   equipment/materials at seller's expense.  Any damage resulting from said   removal shall not be the responsibility of Seller.".  It also  states "OUR POLICY:  We try sincerely to handle all service  work  honestly, efficiently and at a fair price.  Should you ever a  question,  regarding our work, please feel free to bring it to us.".  As far as signatures...

6/3/15:  Yes, I signed BUT before the tech left, we both spoke with XYZ, co.   office and got approval on no charge. At that point, I crossed out the   $90 amount due on the invoice and both the tech and I initialed it.

10/2015:  No, I did not sign.  The tech left without presenting me a bill to sign. FWIW, to me, this visit was for a repair estimate not a service call.


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## Snoonyb (Apr 13, 2016)

o2284200 said:


> 6/3/15:  Yes, I signed BUT before the tech left, we both spoke with XYZ, co.   office and got approval on no charge. At that point, I crossed out the   $90 amount due on the invoice and both the tech and I initialed it.



And the tech. quoted that "office communication" on the receipt, which you have a copy a legible copy of, in your possession?



o2284200 said:


> 10/2015:  No, I did not sign.  The tech left without presenting me a bill to sign. FWIW, to me, this visit was for a repair estimate not a service call.



And they will state, under oath, presenting a repair estimate form, that repair estimates are at no charge or if there is a charge, the cost of the repairs will be adjusted to reflect that estimate as a credit?

Have you reviewed the lien laws for your state, which are available on line?

At this point, only you, can help you, and an if and maybe email isn't going to help.


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## ohmy (Apr 15, 2016)

Sounds like the systems is not designed correctly and there are airflow issues causing your system to overwork and fail. I would get the system inspected by a few reputable companies in the area and see what they say about the design.  You may get the original contractor to do something, but considering the fact that your the 2nd owner of the house and you don't have a contract with them, it may be hard. Good luck!


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## o2284200 (May 1, 2016)

I sent XYZ, co. a nicely written email to them; no threats just requested an  explanation.  They called me back so obviously nothing in writing.  I got no where with them and they lied about the following dates: 

(6/3/2015) "replaced battery and fixed loose wire at thermostat...= $90", which I refused to pay...They stated "that wasn't us.".

(10/2015) When the tech left without presenting me a bill, they stated "I WAS presented a bill and refused to pay".

 XYZ, co. went on to demand a credit card for payment and threatened collections...I reluctantly paid them by credit card to avoid collections, telling them I didn't believe I owed them the money.

As for the system...I agree, I should probably get the it inspected by a few reputable companies in the area and see what they say about the design.

As for  XYZ, co., I can now dispute the charge with credit card company, report them to state licensing board, BBB, etc...Your thoughts?


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## KULTULZ (May 1, 2016)

o2284200 said:


> I sent XYZ, co. a nicely written email to them; no threats just requested an  explanation.  They called me back so obviously nothing in writing.  I got no where with them and they lied about the following dates:
> 
> (6/3/2015) "replaced battery and fixed loose wire at thermostat...= $90", which I refused to pay...They stated "that wasn't us.".
> 
> ...



All communication(s) during a situation like this should be via  registered USPS. You must have a written trail , no he said, she said..


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## KULTULZ (May 1, 2016)

o2284200 said:


> The home inspector said it wasn't a big deal; I could not be held responsible nor get in any sort of trouble nor incur a fine, if it wasn't installed up to code before I bought the house.
> 
> OK...Great!
> 
> How much responsibility does the installer "XYZ Co." have, if it wasn't installed up to code?



The home inspector is not performing the service(s) you paid him for.

He didn't want to take the time or inform you how to go about finding info regarding a permit. You accepted his advice so now have to live with it unless you can prove the installation was not done to code and without a permit.

Code(s) can be a PIA but they are there for a reason(s), and not being a source of revenue. If a contractor performs services without pulling a required permit, you are as guilty as he is, IMO.

The resultant fire can burn down your house *and* your neighbors.


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## frodo (May 1, 2016)

it is not only your opinion,  it is fact.

if you go to court saying you hired a contractor and he pulled no permit or was not licensed and you were aware of the fact

your hands are dirty,  you can not sue him if your hands are dirty.

if he lied, and represented himself as licensed and you have a case.

on another note.  if you do not pay the bill,  all he can do is put a mechanics lien on your property

that means the bill has to be adjudicated before the property can be sold or mortgaged 

kinda of a joke really,,if you live their for 30 years,,

or, if the amount is under a certain amount,  he can take you to small claims.

but,,judge will laugh if he has no license...dirty hands againhttp://screencast.com/t/KzrJIyhkHiUw



before, you get all pumped up over your letter

call the building department,  ask, if the work that was done, in their jurisdiction,  requires a permit to be pulled.
not all work requires a permit.
do not send a letter stating facts that you do not know as true
it will hurt you later


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## frodo (May 1, 2016)

read this..



why did you remove the condensate p-trap ?


my advice.  find a different ac contractor and chock it all up to life experience


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## KULTULZ (May 2, 2016)

o2284200 said:


> In 2012 I bought the house that you all have been helping repair, which was built in 1970.   Everything was original except the central HVAC, which according to the stickers on it was manufactured in 2010 and installed by XYZ Co but I could not find a permit with the local municipality for the installation.
> 
> The home inspector said it wasn't a big deal; I could not be held responsible nor get in any sort of trouble nor incur a fine, if it wasn't installed up to code before I bought the house.
> 
> ...



My concern here is that if the installation was not permitted with finish inspection that maybe either the contractor was not fully aware of proper install or had field tech(s) that did not know, fully understand or care about proper install.

Did you call the manufacturer and ask if the system had been registered and to what extent the warranty still applies, even though an improper install can void any warranty (don't mention any problems)? 

True you wouldn't be liable (per HI) for the improper install but if found to be an improper install may be forced to bring the install to code.

In today's world, an insurance investigator and/or a fire marshal investigation, say after a major fire, could lead to the insurance carrier telling you to have a nice day.

Lot of untrained/unknowledgeable, fly-by and crooks out there.

I would make sure it is found to be or corrected to meet current code and then worry about the legalities.

Your inspector gave you bad advice IMO.


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## o2284200 (May 2, 2016)

KULTULZ said:


> The home inspector is not performing the service(s) you paid him for.
> 
> He didn't want to take the time or inform you how to go about finding info regarding a permit. You accepted his advice so now have to live with it unless you can prove the installation was not done to code and without a permit.
> 
> ...





frodo said:


> it is not only your opinion,  it is fact.
> 
> if you go to court saying you hired a contractor and he pulled no permit or was not licensed and you were aware of the fact
> 
> your hands are dirty,  you can not sue him if your hands are dirty...



Just to clarify...I didn't hire the contractor, the previous owner of the home did, 2 years before I bought the house.


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## o2284200 (May 2, 2016)

frodo said:


> read this..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks!

I didn't remove the condensate p-trap...The drain line disappears into the wall behind air handler  then runs under  the house and reappears, barely sticking out of the ground outside.  Apparently, this IS my condensate p-trap...Running under my house.


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## o2284200 (May 2, 2016)

KULTULZ said:


> My concern here is that if the installation was not permitted with finish inspection that maybe either the contractor was not fully aware of proper install or had field tech(s) that did not know, fully understand or care about proper install.


 My concern as well!



KULTULZ said:


> Did you call the manufacturer and ask if the system had been registered and to what extent the warranty still applies, even though an improper install can void any warranty (don't mention any problems)?


 All they said was the manufacturer tells them what the warranty is and this is no longer covered. 



KULTULZ said:


> True you wouldn't be liable (per HI) for the improper install but if found to be an improper install may be forced to bring the install to code.
> 
> In today's world, an insurance investigator and/or a fire marshal investigation, say after a major fire, could lead to the insurance carrier telling you to have a nice day.
> 
> ...


We know that now, don't we... That being said, who would be responsible to pay for bringing it up to code, if need be; me or the  licensed contractor, who installed it without pulling permit or getting  inspections?


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## KULTULZ (May 2, 2016)

o2284200 said:


> They said was the manufacturer tells them what the warranty is and this is no longer covered.



_They being who?_ 



o2284200 said:


> We know that now, don't we... That being said, who would be responsible to pay for bringing it up to code, if need be; me or the  licensed contractor, who installed it without pulling permit or getting  inspections?



It all depends on what you find regarding permits, if installed correctly and if the facts cause them to correct any concerns (done with permit). If not, court. You then have to justify legal costs as opposed to simply having the system brought up to code.

I, at the least, would try to inform the AHJ if no permits pulled was found.


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## o2284200 (May 4, 2016)

KULTULZ said:


> _They being who?_


XYZ, co. said the manufacturer tells them what the warranty is.


KULTULZ said:


> It all depends on what you find regarding permits...


No permits were pulled so who would be responsible to pay for bringing it up to code, since no permits were pulled?


KULTULZ said:


> I, at the least, would try to inform the AHJ if no permits pulled was found.


Who or what is "AHJ"?


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## Chris (May 4, 2016)

From the work I do, the property owner is ultimately responsible to bring things up to code if required. It was the last homeowners responsibility to make sure permits were pulled by the contractor. I can hire a handyman to put a new roof on my house without pulling a permit or hire a licensed contractor, either way it is up to me if I pull the permit or deal with the consequences. Most good contractors will not work without a permit being pulled. Personally I think by bringing it up with the City you are just going to make things harder on yourself.


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## nealtw (May 4, 2016)

I think you have to become the tech, learn how to change parts and even better figure out what is causing them to fail. Pay them off and get rid of them.


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## KULTULZ (May 5, 2016)

o2284200 said:


> XYZ, co. said the manufacturer tells them what the warranty is.



You need to contact the customer service line of the *manufacturer* of the system and see if they kept any dealer (XYZ) information (registering/warranty claims) of the system. There may be a reference there as to whether any permit was pulled. 



> No permits were pulled so who would be responsible to pay for bringing it up to code, since no permits were pulled?


Ultimately you, as the HI gave you incorrect info and as a result you bought the property based on that info.



> Who or what is "AHJ"?


http://www.gridalternatives.org/sit...r No. 9 - Authorities Having Jurisdiction.pdf


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## o2284200 (May 10, 2016)

OK, so going to city or state may open a can of worms that I don't want opened.  With that said, I am now preparing to dispute the charge with my credit card company (already spoke with them),  report XYZ, co. to BBB, post to sites like Yelp, etc...In what order, would you do these things or does order, in which they are done not really matter?


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## nealtw (May 10, 2016)

BBB try to solve the issue so they want to deal first. If you go other routes first they won't help.


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## KULTULZ (May 10, 2016)

o2284200 said:


> OK, so going to city or state may open a can of worms that I don't want opened.  With that said, I am now preparing to dispute the charge with my credit card company (already spoke with them),  report XYZ, co. to BBB, post to sites like Yelp, etc...
> 
> In what order, would you do these things or does order, in which they are done not really matter?





KULTULZ said:


> You need to contact the customer service line of the *manufacturer*  of the system and see if they kept any dealer (XYZ) information  (registering/warranty claims) of the system. There may be a reference  there as to whether any permit was pulled.



*If* you contact the manufacturer's customer service line, they must have some kind of record where their product went and installed by what contractor.

On that record  it may have an entry as to whether the system was *installed to code with permit* and if the dealer/contractor said yes but one is not on file, you may be able to justify small claims court expense and/or report him the AHJ.

Have you had a certified contractor come in and give you a ballpark figure to comply with manufacturer's requirements and local code(s) (usually the cost of a service call in your area).

I would be more concerned with safety at this point and exercise revenge later..


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