# New foundation, old house



## Begreen

We have an 80 yr. old,  2 story farmhouse on a pier and post foundation and have been trying to get it on a fully sealed perimeter wall system. We've contacted local (rural) contractors and there seems to be two approaches. One is to lift the house many feet in the air so that they can work. Then drop the house on the new foundation. The other approach is to support the floor joists close to the perimeter and then dig, form and pour the foundation in place without lifting the house.

Which approach makes the most sense? We don't want to change the height of the house permanently. One contractor proposed building a permanent inner support system about 2 ft inside of the perimeter (complete with poured footings) and then, one section at a time, building foundation forms and pouring. That means 5 pours. This seems like overkill, but I am not a foundation specialist. The bid was the same as lifting the house, so I fail to see the advantage of this approach. I would have thought that installing a temporary system of (cribbing? jacks?) to support the house while the foundation forms are built would be more appropriate. Good common sense would sure be appreciated about now. Please share your thoughts.

Thanks, Will


----------



## Begreen

I should add that the house is remarkably level and true, so all we're trying to do is get it on a good base. The reason being that right now the crawl space is horrible, no one wants to work under there so we can't get the floor insulated, plumbing done, etc.. Also we have a problem with rodent intrusion that we want to put a halt to.


----------



## Square Eye

The house being level now, I don't see any reason to lift any part of the house.Why don't these guys just knock out a section at a time on opposite walls and pour concrete to the existing floor system? They could leave enough to adequately support the house while forming and pouring. Are these guys wanting to lay block?


----------



## Begreen

Nobody's proposed laying block yet. This is pour and pump that they are proposing. The last to bid contractor has not done a job this big. He requested that an engineer specify how to do the job. It's the engineer that came up with the idea of total house support next to the foundation wall. I don't mind being safe, but I don't understand why the engineer is proposing a permanent inner support structure. Once the house is on the new foundation, this inner structure appears to be totally redundant. Temporary support makes more sense to me, but I'm not a builder.


----------



## inspectorD

Hello Begreen,
Sounds like quite the project. In actuality it's not so bad.
First what type soil do you have and how far away can they support temporary posts from the new foundation?
The reason is if its sandy or really clay soil you need two different approaches.
The sandy soil is best done in sections of the house and no lifting as square eye said. This is because you can have collapse during the construction of the foundation if to much area is excavated at once.
The problem with the clay is that if you do it in sections, it may have a tendency to leak or crack if you don't do a single pour of the foundation. This means lifting the house. The house can be set true again without any problems so it's not a big concern.They will cut the electrical and plumbing to lift the home however, hope your not going to stay.
This sounds like a big undertaking but many have come through this unscathed, The professional you hire makes all the difference.

You get lemons if you pay for lemons! 

InspectorD


----------



## Square Eye

It sounds to me like the engineer is doing a "cover my tail". If the house shifted or the temporary support failed, well, he can already smell the lawsuit. A full perimeter permanent structure inside a new foundation wall is redundant to the structure of the home. 

InspectorD and myself may have to come do this one ourselves. Ha-Ha-ha-ha,,just kidding, someone will surely give you an acceptable proposal if you keep looking.


----------



## Begreen

duplicate post, can't delete


----------



## Begreen

The soil is glacial till, somewhat sandy down to about 8 feel then below that clay. This does 'seem' like a butt covering exercise at my expense.  The engineer did have a house collapse many years ago (weekend foundation fixing party with  whole house on cribbing). There was a fatality connected. That may explain the suggested process. 

It's the permanent installation of a complete  interior perimeter support system that seems so unconventional to me and so expensive. This house is on a gentle slope of about 2' over the 35' width of the house. There have been no soil stability issues in this area, no drainage issues, etc. So the approach of one side at a time with good - temporary - supporting, seems to make sense to me. How much risk is there with a good temporary support system when three other sides of the house remain supported? What is the best temporary support system? The house is approx 30 x 35. What is in very rough ballpark terms is the average cost for this kind of work? (Please say what region too). 

If there is any good information on this on the web, it would sure be appreciated.


----------



## inspectorD

I actually have the answer for you, hope it helps.

www.iasm.org

 Inspectord


----------



## Begreen

We're on the same wavelength. I spoke with the contractor today and we are going to contact local house lifters to get estimates for lifting. One of the names that came up is on the iasm list for WA. Thanks for the tip.


----------



## inspectorD

Please tell us how you make out. Post some pictures and time lines or just info would be great.It's getting so folks here (not yourself yet)get the answers and dont follow through with the outcome.It helps if we all know how are advice works out. Like are we close or way off what you end up with in the end.

Your welcome for the advice,
I use this forum to keep my mind sharp, Always learning
InspectorD


----------



## Begreen

I meet with Tom of Robbins and Co. next Wed. to get their costs and approach. In the meantime, the contractor is examining a more conventional approach of temporary supports with cribbing. I'm hoping to reach a conclusion by next week this time.


----------



## inspectorD

inspectorD said:
			
		

> Please tell us how you make out. Post some pictures and time lines or just info would be great.It's getting so folks here (not yourself yet)get the answers and dont follow through with the outcome.It helps if we all know how are advice works out. Like are we close or way off what you end up with in the end.
> 
> Your welcome for the advice,
> I use this forum to keep my mind sharp, Always learning
> InspectorD



Well????
Would love to here what the results are.............


----------



## woodworkingmenace

Well, its been long enough... 

I have overstayed my time...

Nice to see and get to know you all...

Have a Great Life! 

And, stay Faithful to the LORD...

chow

Jesse


----------



## Square Eye

woodworkingmenace said:
			
		

> Well, its been long enough...
> 
> I have overstayed my time...
> 
> Nice to see and get to know you all...
> 
> Have a Great Life!
> 
> And, stay Faithful to the LORD...
> 
> chow
> 
> Jesse



???

Where are you going Jesse?

You're up to $2.34,  2 cents at a time.

Why quit now?

I never saw a flame or anything too aggressive against you.

???


----------



## Begreen

inspectorD said:
			
		

> Well????
> Would love to here what the results are.............



No results yet, but soon I hope. It's taken time for getting a permit, lining up excavator and foundation contractors and deciding on house lifter. We thought we were all set there until today.

 The house lifter we had selected has been out twice. The first time he was out he gave us a verbal estimate of $13000 if we wanted the fireplace structure lifted with the house. If we got rid of the fireplace, it dropped $1500 to maybe 11.5. We took a couple weeks to shop around and get a few more quotes. One never got back to  us and the other came in at 16,000. I can vouch for this guy, his firm did a friends house, very professional. We also decided to remove the entire fireplace assembly (82 yrs old, very crumbly mortar). 

We called the lifter and said we were ready to sign up. He came out again, because he had lost our paperwork over the past 4 weeks it took to get the permit moving and had forgotten about us. Today we finally got the written proposal - $17000 - after we've already pulled the chimney. We're bummed. They have us penciled in for a June 1st lift, but we feel like we're getting fleeced all of a sudden. May fall back to the second bidder if he is still available. What would you do? Is it normal to be off 33% on an estimate of this size?


----------



## inspectorD

Don't wait to long....the prices keep going up!! I'm sure you have done your research. Do you like one over the other? Does one seem more professional? Lost paperwork is not a good start. Verbal agreement's on price are not a sign of a good contractor in my opinion. A written estimate to follow is usually what I would tell a customer that hounded me for a ballpark price on the spot. To do otherwise is to create an anxiety and a potential lack of confidence from the start.They seem to be in the same price range, and the second contractor has worked with your neighbor with good results.Did the second contractor give you a verbal price also? 

My opinion? Go with what you think is the professional. On-time to the meeting,cleanliness of equipment,job and person,communication abilities are big items....who has more experience is the biggest question. You don't want to loose your home to collapse. What kind of differences in their insurance are there?  
Don't let the price matter to much because you do get what you pay for. (If you pay close attention to details)Then answer these questions and see what pans out.

Do it quick....do you have that sinking feeling yet?


----------



## Begreen

Both are considered the best in the area, experience is about equal. The one whose estimator came out and has the 33% markup is a big firm that has done lots of jobs. It's Robbins & Co., they are an IASM member and do lots of commercial work too.  The other concern Kunkel, is 4th generation local lifters and movers, smaller, not IASM, and more focussed on residential lifts and moves, but from what I've heard, very conscientious, professional and hardworking. I am leaning towards the second if he can fit me in. This is no longer about price, it is about ethics. 

My guess on this is that the field rep for the first company is either a lousy estimator or a jerk. It's hard to say how well he represents the company or just his commision. What I suspect happened is that he submitted his proposal to the shop foreman, aka the guy actually setting up the work, and the shop foreman tacked on an extra day. In this business the cost are roughly $4K/day, so that would explain the 33% increase. I can understand this and would go with it if we had an upfront contract specifying that the deal is for $13K if 3 days and if it goes to 4 days then $17K, but so far this hasn't been presented by the first party. With the second company, you deal with one person, the owner. He is a straight shooter and thus becoming my choice.


----------



## inspectorD

The one man operation sounds like a good alternative.
Bigger companies sometimes don't give you the personal commitment you may want.
Get some references and don't pay in full till your satisfied. 
Did you ever find out what the underlying problem was?


----------



## Begreen

Spoke with the large company rep first thing today. He thinks it may be as I suggested, an extra day got tacked on by the crew foreman who hasn't been to the site. He says as soon as crews are dispatched, he will check with the foreman. Should be back to me within the hour. I proposed that we negotiate a new contract, (I haven't signed yet), based on 3 crew days with a rider for the 4th day in case it takes that long. Should hear back from them soon. 

If they're not reasonable, we'll go with the smaller firm. But that will likely mean a reschedule of everybody involved. At this point, this not that trivial. We're supposed to start lifting in one week.

Is this what you meant by the underlying problem?

---> later editted update:

Yep, that was the case. They tacked on an extra day for cleanup. After talking it over we've agreed that 3 days should suffice. The contract is now back at original estimate with a condition that if a 4th day is required I pay the $3.7k for that day. 

Just met with the excavator. He's worked with this firm and says they do their job well. So we're signed up and on track for lift on 5/30. The house will be in the air for 3 weeks. Should have pics and more news in a little over a week.


----------



## inspectorD

Sounds like things worked themselves out and your obviously ok with the results.
I (and others )cant wait to see the progress and  the  cool pictures. For those of you who have never done this it is a really cool thing to see the house in the air and excavators and trucks working under the house. 
Front row is best......


----------



## Drivesme

You can sure tell you are in the South Sound by the looks of your yard!
I live there as well and that could be a pic of my yard!

Good luck on your project!
Buddy of mine has the same problem and is thinking of doing the samething.
He wants to rotate his house 90 degrees to get a better view of the mountain though.


----------



## Begreen

Where are you at Drivesme? We're on Vashon Island.


----------



## Begreen

The lift went well. Robbins crew was very professional. They terrorized the house the day before yesterday, and then yesterday, up it went. Estimated weight about 65 tons all sitting on 3 - 40ft. x 12" ibeams.  We're 4 feet in the air for the next 3 weeks.  Plumbing is now reconnected and we built a bridge to get into the house. Today will be cleanup and assesment. Excavator comes tomorrow. We should be pouring footings by the middle of next week.

The timing was good, both for the weather and the rot I suspected was happening due to the lack of any protective flashing before they put in the patio. We got to it just in time. The front sill will need a rebuild, but all in all the house is in good shape. Every 2x10 floor joist is one solid piece, 36 ft long!

We expect to return to the new foundation in 3 weeks. When it comes down, the house will sit 2 ft. higher. Then we get into landscaping to make it all look right again. Will post more pics as we progress.


----------



## inspectorD

This is what this site is about...progress!!!
Looks like it should. Are you putting in a full basement and a hatchway or access from the outside.
How about drains at the exterior. Let us know what the plans are....don't keep us in suspense...


----------



## Begreen

If it were 10 years ago, we might have gone for a full basement, but no real need now that the kids are heading for or already in college. It will just be a crawlspace. There is a basement pit for mechanicals, about 12 x 8, that has an interior hatch already. We'll also have an insulated exterior hatch entry to same space. Drains will be added after the foundation is finished.


----------



## Begreen

Footings are now in and wall will be in by the end of the week. It's good to see some construction after all the destruction.  We spent the day relocating the trunk supply duct for the heating. It went off to the side in order to clear the chimney. This created some 30 ft. duct runs. Not good with propane heat in an unheated space. With the trunk now in the center, the longest run will be 15' and of course it will now be insulated. So will the interior foundation walls. 

This brings up a question for you all. The county is calling for 10.42 sq. ft. of vents for about 1500 sq. feet of crawl space; that's 21 vents! This seems ludicrous. Our foundation will look like a bunker with machine gun ports. 

The house has had a total of 4 - 4x12" vents for the past 82 yrs without any issues. You can see one in the upper left of this picture. We have exceptionally dry soil and great drainage. Never a sign of water in the crawlspace and I close the vents in the winter. As I checkout greenbuilding sites and buildingscience.com I am finding that many are working to get code changed and in radon free areas like ours, recommending no vents at all and a tightly insulated crawlspace. This is the direction I am leaning towards.

What does one do when common sense runs into county code?


----------



## Square Eye

Begreen said:
			
		

> What does one do when common sense runs into county code?




Do what the county says. It's by far cheaper to do it their way now, rather than later, when you thought you were done.

I agree that current building codes are a little on the extreme side on foundation vents, but we're living with it.


----------



## Begreen

Actually, I was hoping for a little creative thinking on this. The county is wrong. It's not a little extreme, it's a lot extreme and at the home owner's expense. One shoe doesn't fit all. That is simply the wrong approach. 

I am thinking of meeting their requirements another way. There will be a 2' x 3' crawlspace entry door. I'm thinking of making it a screen door temporarilly. Also thinking of adding two 18" x 30" windows to the north side (tallest foundation wall). Windows will be screened until county is gone, then will replace with glass block.


----------



## Square Eye

We are held to the same standard here. 1 vent to every 150 sq.ft. I also think it's excessive. It's your home. Do what the county requires in whatever way you want. 

When I started working in construction, we never put vents on the front of a house. Now county inspectors will refuse to pass an inspection if the vents aren't distributed as they see fit. I have actually had to lay pipe under porch slabs to vent the front of a house to suit the inspectors. One inspector tried to force me to vent a house foundation into the garage! Talk to your inspector before you do something that he may or may not pass. There's nothing like cutting out concrete to suit an inspector's opinion.


----------



## inspectorD

Bring updated info from building science and school those inspectors on your way, no other choice.


----------



## Begreen

The plan engineer wrote that we need 21 vents for 1563 sq. ft. That's twice the number that are required in your neighborhood. Ten is bad, 21 is downright silly. I'm trying to catch the inspector today. He's a reasonable man from the construction trade, so hopefully, he'll be a bit flexible.


----------



## Begreen

inspectorD said:
			
		

> Bring updated info from building science and school those inspectors on your way, no other choice.



I'm told that won't work. Here, one must go to the DDES office and meet with the plan engineers to get an exception. They'll sit and nod their heads at $132/hr. for as long as you want to rant. Then they'll fall back on code and tell you to do it their way. It's not worth the hassle. Instead, we're going to try and get approval to install 6 - 16" sq vents in the holes left by the I-Beams that are holding up the house. After we get final signoff, we'll change to green building code and seal them up. I'll wait as long as possible to maximize concrete cure time. Probably in Sept. they'll get filled in.


----------



## inspectorD

I am sure you know...but for those who don't...
Don't forget on the last day to stick a dehumidifier in the crawl space and leave it there. This will help with the "trying to dry out" concrete.( IT takes a year) 

Begreen...this has been a great experience for all on this message board. 
I just wanted to thank you for keeping us involved with your project.


----------



## Begreen

Foundation walls were poured today. Woohoo! Now we can start cleaning up this big mess and begin returning the house to a normal life. We'll still need to restore the patio and have a lot of landscaping to repair. But the end is in sight I hope. My son and I relocated the trunk duct for the heating to a more central location now that the fireplace won't be blocking it. I'll be adding new insulated runs soon.

The inspector allowed us to use the openings for the house raising Ibeams as vents. Each is 16 x 16, lots of air. I'll screen them for inspection, then will block them up and insulate.


----------



## Begreen

OK, the forms are coming off. It looks like we are getting some voids and errors. But never having done this, I'm unsure how to call this. One is in a highly visible location. The other is under the crawlspace entry hatch. Is this acceptable and normal? Can it be patched without looking awful? The rest looks very smooth and nice.


----------



## inspectorD

It'll make it, what happened is they did not vibrate the concrete after pouring it into the forms. When you use a pump truck sometimes you get some voids or air pockets. 
You can put a parge coat over the areas that need attention. Basically like a skim coat of plaster/stucco on the wall.

I would say not a bad job overall....make them do the repairs.


----------



## Begreen

Systems are getting back to normal now. Patio system should be in by end of the week. We rebuilt the kitchen entry. It was originally a porch, which then got windows added and eventually became interior. When we started tearing into it we found the walls were just clapboard inside and out. No sheathing or insulation. So we reuilt it up to the drip edge.

Also have found that the whole house does not have any wind barrier like tar paper. Suspect we'll be pulling off all the siding and filling any uninsulated wall cavities with blow in insulation, then adding a wind barrier and residing, probably with cedar shingles. 

I'm going back to work on Monday. This stage has taken 4 weeks of 12 hr+ days/7days a week. Probably doesn't belong in the DIY forum. This is a huge project. We're getting real tired of living in a construction site. Can't wait to get back to normal living.


----------



## Square Eye

Begreen said:
			
		

> Probably doesn't belong in the DIY forum. This is a huge project. We're getting real tired of living in a construction site. Can't wait to get back to normal living.



That statement alone makes it absolutely appropriate and _actually _important.
A project like your's is a *HUGE* undertaking. 
Most folks do not understand the scope of projects like this. 
All I have to say is *THANK YOU!*,,
for sharing, for the pictures and the commentary.


----------



## inspectorD

Looks great!! Like Square Eye say's..."Grab a chair an set a spell" see what happens ...someone raises a house!!!
We all love that you have taken the time to share your huge project with our little community, all the while being busy with your own tasks at hand.

The house looks like it came through fine, the updates sound good too. 

Settin back with a cold one......


----------



## Digger

I just wanted to join in and say thanks for sharing the house lifting process with us. The photos are great and the narrative educational. Sadly, in Texas, the SOP seems to be tear-down and re-build instead of lift and repair.


----------



## Liljoe

I too, want to thank you for all the information.  I have a similar situation here in Washington as well. However, my house is in considerable disrepair due to a lack of foundation. It is actually sitting on concrete posts, so there is a lot of cracking in the walls and framing .  It's about a 100 year old house, rebuilt in the 50's after a fire. (Grandpa bought her for $2,000!) For years we jacked up the house and put in new blocks to try to level it, but that hasn't been done in probably 20 years.  So now we are getting to the point where we either have to tear it all down, or give it a major overhaul, i.e. lifting it, pouring a foundation, and completely gutting the house and rebuilding it from the inside out. Frankly, I'm leaning towards just tearing it down, but would love any suggestions out there.


----------



## Begreen

Liljoe said:


> Frankly, I'm leaning towards just tearing it down, but would love any suggestions out there.



Hard to say LJ, this is a tough decision. If the house has good bones, it may be worth saving, especially if it has such great memories and history. Does it have unique period trim and detailing? If a rebuild, it will take a lot of work and probably at least $100K, but it can be worth it. Our friends tore their house down to the studs inside and out and reclad it with shingles, insulated it well, and new electric, and sheetrock. Their heating bills for that old house are now exceptionally low and it looks great. It takes a tremendous amount of work and sweat equity to pull this off or a large budget, but with the right house it can be worth it. If the house was nothing to start with and has serious problems, then sadly it may be better to start over.


----------



## todomi

Begreen said:


> Systems are getting back to normal now. Patio system should be in by end of the week. We rebuilt the kitchen entry. It was originally a porch, which then got windows added and eventually became interior. When we started tearing into it we found the walls were just clapboard inside and out. No sheathing or insulation. So we reuilt it up to the drip edge.
> 
> Also have found that the whole house does not have any wind barrier like tar paper. Suspect we'll be pulling off all the siding and filling any uninsulated wall cavities with blow in insulation, then adding a wind barrier and residing, probably with cedar shingles.
> 
> I'm going back to work on Monday. This stage has taken 4 weeks of 12 hr+ days/7days a week. Probably doesn't belong in the DIY forum. This is a huge project. We're getting real tired of living in a construction site. Can't wait to get back to normal living.


I am glad I found this forum, because this is something I am about to have done to a 1930 Sears Home I bought.  I think I going to raise the basement ceiling height it another 3ft, but that's not the main reason I want to have this done.  The main reason is because whoever decided to install a new furnance and drainage system cut right through the *main support beam* in 3 locations.  , some people shouldn't be allowed to own houses, especially the ones Sears use to build.


----------



## Begreen

Yes, don't you love contractors that come in with no structural regard for the house. What a bummer. I'm a little confused about the final goal todomi. Can't that main beam be replaced without completely raising the house? If the primary goal is to add significant height to the basement, this is the right process. But if it's just to replace the main beam(s) I would think you wouldn't have to go to such extremes. 

BTW, progress update. I finally got tired of contractors saying they would show up and then not showing up. We needed to get the house siding restored. So my son and I tackled the project. It took about 9 days of steady work to add, patch and replace the beveled siding. Looks great now and we're ready to paint in two weeks. Although I've never done siding before, the results look great. I would wager my mitered joins on the long runs look better than most. 

The last exterior detail is the porch stairs. They were large (8 ft wide) before we raised the house. Now about 32" higher they would be massive. So we are going to put in a wide 6 step stair that will come down to a 6 x 8 landing. Then the landing will have two 3 ft wide steps on both sides that bring one down to the ground-level gravel path around the house. The stairs will be craftsman style with side walls clad in beveled siding. That will be the final touch.

And as to the energy retrofits, they've paid off nicely. The heat pump worked well. We had an unusually cold spell in January but I used the woodstove as our supplementary heat instead of the electric resistance coils. This winter our average heating bills were under $60/month. And the floors were so much more comfortable with the newly insulated crawlspace below.


----------



## todomi

Begreen said:


> Yes, don't you love contractors that come in with no structural regard for the house. What a bummer. I'm a little confused about the final goal todomi. Can't that main beam be replaced without completely raising the house? If the primary goal is to add significant height to the basement, this is the right process. But if it's just to replace the main beam(s) I would think you wouldn't have to go to such extremes.
> 
> BTW, progress update. I finally got tired of contractors saying they would show up and then not showing up. We needed to get the house siding restored. So my son and I tackled the project. It took about 9 days of steady work to add, patch and replace the beveled siding. Looks great now and we're ready to paint in two weeks. Although I've never done siding before, the results look great. I would wager my mitered joins on the long runs look better than most.
> 
> The last exterior detail is the porch stairs. They were large (8 ft wide) before we raised the house. Now about 32" higher they would be massive. So we are going to put in a wide 6 step stair that will come down to a 6 x 8 landing. Then the landing will have two 3 ft wide steps on both sides that bring one down to the ground-level gravel path around the house. The stairs will be craftsman style with side walls clad in beveled siding. That will be the final touch.
> 
> And as to the energy retrofits, they've paid off nicely. The heat pump worked well. We had an unusually cold spell in January but I used the woodstove as our supplementary heat instead of the electric resistance coils. This winter our average heating bills were under $60/month. And the floors were so much more comfortable with the newly insulated crawlspace below.


I was going to see if I could *flitch* another beam together, I am not sure I can do it that way because the location of the stairs.  A Structural Engineer, I know suggested using a steel plate under the location of the cuts, but that would still require the use of *floor jacks*.  I want to get rid of the use of floor jacks completely.  I really hope there is another way, I will see the Structural Engineer tomorrow.  I really didn't mention any other option with him, but I think he didn't realize my desire to get rid of the floor jacks, the last time we talked about this.  He even surveyed the damage, what he suggested was a quick fix.  I don't want a quick fix, I want it to look like those *hacks* were never here.  I am also planning to add a 2 car garage and addition living space to the property, it may even be attached.  Depending on how the architectural drawings turn-out.  The addition won't have a basement, however.  It will be slab on grade, for the garage area. Believe me, if there was an easy way to fix this without permanent use of floor jacks, let me know? I would rather not have to go to this extreme, but I am 6'-4" and the basement current joist height is like 6'-0".  I plan to stay here at least 10 years or more.  Another question, when you had this done, did you have to completely empty your house of all it's contents: furniture, appliances and etc.?

Also, I was thinking of going *geo-thermal*, a heat pump doesn't work well in the colder climates, like Ohio.


----------



## todomi

http://www.searsarchives.com/homes/images/1933-1940/1935_3407.jpg


----------

