# Is this wiring dangerous



## MikeIsMad (Feb 26, 2017)

This weekend while in the attic replacing my attic ladder, I found something that I thought could be dangerous. 
There is an outlet box for 4 outlets. 3 of these outlets are being used, but 2 actually power other outlets and the 3rd powers my driveway light. It seems these should definitely be hardwired, but I'm not sure if it could just be hardwired and enclosed into a box or if it would cause breaker load issues.

Thanks in advance for your response.


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## nealtw (Feb 26, 2017)

Yup that should be fixed up a little. Post some photos of the other stuff there. May as well look at all the adjustments at the same time.


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## Kabris (Feb 27, 2017)

Yeah this setup is a bit of a head scratcher. At the very least, the 2 that are feeding other outlets should be hard wired. I also believe receptacles in unfinished areas like attics need to be GFCI protected.


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## JoeD (Feb 27, 2017)

Cord cap on NM cable is not permitted.


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## slownsteady (Feb 27, 2017)

Shouldn't be too hard to fix. If the load is okay now, it won't change by hardwiring. AS long as the wire aren't too short....


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## kok328 (Feb 27, 2017)

JoeD said:


> Cord cap on NM cable is not permitted.



Was lookng at this and for the life of me, could not come up with any code violations.  Yes it seems wrong but, could really find a show stopper.
Not sure why they would do this but, one outlet feeding another?  Why?


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## Snoonyb (Feb 27, 2017)

You can hardwire the other outlets, follow and conform to stapling and attachment requirements, but what have you gained, other than another place to plug an extension cord into.

Other than being stiff and unmanageable, there is nothing wrong with using romex for an extension cord.


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## markfothebeast (Feb 27, 2017)

Aside from "Code" and legality issues, the safety of this depends on the gauge wire powering this outlet, the amperage of the breaker, and how many amps are drawn.

If that's 14/2 running to the box I'd definitely do something about it. If it were my home I'd join these wires in a junction box and add an outlet nearby (if needed).

I've seen some pretty bad wiring jobs and this doesn't appear nearly as bad. I've got a buddy that nearly put a 100 amp sub panel in his garage with 30 amp breakers powered by an existing 14/2 [emoji43] .


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## nealtw (Feb 27, 2017)

I still want to see how the other boxes are wired, no telling what this guy was thinking.


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## MikeIsMad (Feb 27, 2017)

Hey guys I'll get up there and snap a few more photos this evening. I was actually hoping to find an outlet up there, so I could connect my sawzall and lamp, but wasn't expecting to see this. My first line of business was to replace this ladder that was barely being hung on. Then I wanted to start cleaning up the attic. We moved I to this house 1 month ago and it appears they used the attic for a dumpster during a remodel.


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## MikeIsMad (Feb 27, 2017)

Btw, the may be an indication of what they were thinking.


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## nealtw (Feb 27, 2017)

That box has knock out holes and you can buy some clamps that fit there, a few mar connectors (nuts) and some wire staples.


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## MikeIsMad (Feb 27, 2017)

ok, heres a few photos.

This shows the other side of the truss where the box is currently located. Appears to be plenty of extra wire.




This one shows one outlet box in the ceiling of the garage.



And this shows the wire to the driveway light. Disregard the box you see there, that is another outlet that is not connected to these.



I didn't get a picture of the 3rd wire today, but it doesnt appear to be running to a box, but directly down through the wall, powering a wall outlet.

So after reading all these posts, it sounds like I am fine connecting these with wire nuts inside the box. Would it be ok to attach inside this same box and leave the outlets?


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## nealtw (Feb 27, 2017)

You may want to wait until you have that cleaned up a bit so you can tidy up the wire a little when you can see better where it is going.
Yes you can leave the outlets there or put a blank lid on it and run another outlet box.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 27, 2017)

MikeIsMad said:


> ok, heres a few photos.
> 
> This shows the other side of the truss where the box is currently located. Appears to be plenty of extra wire.
> 
> ...



Yes you can connect those individual romex in that box, however, it appears you may exceed the max. conductor count allowed for that size of enclosure.

You'll also need to staple each romex within 9" of the box.


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## MikeIsMad (Feb 27, 2017)

Can you please elaborate on your comments of how my roof is framed?


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## nealtw (Feb 28, 2017)

They look like trusses to me!!


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## Snoonyb (Feb 28, 2017)

These are examples of roof trusses, the bottom member of which acts as a ceiling joist;https://www.google.com/search?q=roo...mugLLSAhXn24MKHdZsDEkQsAQIGw&biw=1280&bih=576


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## Snoonyb (Feb 28, 2017)

nealtw said:


> They look like trusses to me!!



They may be, there is just a lot of debris.


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## nealtw (Feb 28, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> They may be, there is just a lot of debris.


Something like this


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## MikeIsMad (Feb 28, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Just for information, your roof ic conventionally framed and there are no trusses, other than carpenters trusses. As an example the 2X4 in the 3rd photo is a purlin rafter.



I think I understand what you all are saying, but trying to understand the importance of this statement. Do I need this information for this application?


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## Snoonyb (Feb 28, 2017)

MikeIsMad said:


> I think I understand what you all are saying, but trying to understand the importance of this statement. Do I need this information for this application?



No you do not need this for this application, and I may be wrong, yours may in fact be a truss roof.

It, however was offered as a clarification and to stress the importance using the correct terminology.

Folks who work in the trades often speak a different language of terminology then the general populace, so, when you are speaking the same terminology, understanding is much more thorough.


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## JoeD (Feb 28, 2017)

Those are in fact trusses. You can see the gusset plates in pic2 of post 13.
It is not relevant to job unless you are planning to cut one to get the new light in.


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## MikeIsMad (Feb 28, 2017)

I see. I'll take another pic or 2.


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## markfothebeast (Feb 28, 2017)

MikeIsMad said:


> Hey guys I'll get up there and snap a few more photos this evening. I was actually hoping to find an outlet up there, so I could connect my sawzall and lamp, but wasn't expecting to see this. My first line of business was to replace this ladder that was barely being hung on. Then I wanted to start cleaning up the attic. We moved I to this house 1 month ago and it appears they used the attic for a dumpster during a remodel.


Judging from how that's wired I'd inspect the wiring throughout the entire home. Usually when I find something like that I find more oddly wired things.


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## MikeIsMad (Feb 28, 2017)

Maybe these pics will help.


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## inspectorD (Feb 28, 2017)

Truss construction.
Usually you don't want to put to much stuff up there weight wise...but I have seen it all.
Good luck with the wiring issues, Neal has the best idea, clean everything up first, see what you have , and start from there.
Nothin worse than chasin yer tail.


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## MikeIsMad (Feb 28, 2017)

markfothebeast said:


> Judging from how that's wired I'd inspect the wiring throughout the entire home. Usually when I find something like that I find more oddly wired things.



You are right about that. Perhaps you saw my original post on this site, just a small issue that has been resolved. http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=22521

Also, I have found a few other concerns that I had planned on eventually posting about, but I'll go ahead and mention them.

In one bedroom, while switching out the ceiling light with a ceiling fan, I found that there was a Romex that was spliced together in the same light box that were still live when the breaker for that room was turn off. These wires I finally found power the fridge and microwave (not sure what else) on the the opposite side of the house. It seems that they just did not have enough Romex (or relocated some wire) to make it to the breaker box. The breaker box is actually just outside of that room and they added probably about 20 feet and connected them in that light box.

The Romex with the wire nuts is the one that sends power to the kitchen.



In addition in this room, there is an outlet that only half works. There is only one light switch in that room, but behind the switch I found a red wire that is capped off by itself and there is a red wire connected to that partially dead outlet.

In another bedroom, I also have an electrical outlet with the same issue and appears to be wired the same. Also one light switch, with a red wire capped off. In addition there was also another live wire behind that light switch, when that breaker was off (different breaker from the other bedroom). I found that this sends power to a guest bathroom and that other room I was just describing.


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## MikeIsMad (Feb 28, 2017)

inspectorD said:


> Truss construction.
> Usually you don't want to put to much stuff up there weight wise...but I have seen it all.



In case this is not a given, the beam on the very top, holding up the roof, are 2X6's. Also there is a 3.5 Ton AC unit on the roof. 
I was hoping to put at least a little plywood up there, to store some holiday boxes and maybe a little camping stuff. Is this a bad idea?


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## nealtw (Feb 28, 2017)

MikeIsMad said:


> In case this is not a given, the beam on the very top, holding up the roof, are 2X6's. Also there is a 3.5 Ton AC unit on the roof.
> I was hoping to put at least a little plywood up there, to store some holiday boxes and maybe a little camping stuff. Is this a bad idea?



lay a few 2x4s across the area  and then plywood, that will help spread any load and protect any wires that may be running in the way. Limit your storage to a few hundred pounds.


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## inspectorD (Feb 28, 2017)

MikeIsMad said:


> In case this is not a given, the beam on the very top, holding up the roof, are 2X6's. Also there is a 3.5 Ton AC unit on the roof.
> I was hoping to put at least a little plywood up there, to store some holiday boxes and maybe a little camping stuff. Is this a bad idea?



Its never a good idea to sture belongings in an attic with truss systems. Unless, they are made for storage, some are.
Yours does not look like a utility storage truss or a living area truss.

However, real world, light christmas boxes and othe such storage is in evey home I inspect with those same trusses. Usually no big deal, accept in snow load areas ..then I have seen sagging in the living space... your call.

I would load it with blown in Insulation, install an insulated cover over the scuttle / entry hole, call it a day with a cool beverage.

After you fix that mess of course.


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## nealtw (Feb 28, 2017)

MikeIsMad said:


> You are right about that. Perhaps you saw my original post on this site, just a small issue that has been resolved. http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=22521
> 
> Also, I have found a few other concerns that I had planned on eventually posting about, but I'll go ahead and mention them.
> 
> ...



So finding junctions behind something else can be confusing but it is okay. 
But it does not look like you have a box where the fan was, that should be fixed up.. 

I hope you are writing a book on what you are finding so someday when some one is trying to solve a problem with the fridge wire they will know there is a junction in the bedroom light fixture.


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## MikeIsMad (Feb 28, 2017)

Well, I'm in the middle of Phoenix AZ so definitely no snow, but of course some things just deteriorate in that heat.

Originally there was a cheap light fixture there, I already added a box and secured it and hung a fan. I do have an electrician brother in law, hopefully one day he'll help me clean up some things I cannot tackle.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 28, 2017)

MikeIsMad said:


> Maybe these pics will help.
> 
> View attachment 13701
> 
> ...



Thanks for the photos.

I stand corrected.

To JOE D; Simpson Strong-Tie mfg. a series of connectors in the CP, MP and TP employed in "same plane" lumber, and because there may be a truss connector visible, and I've employed those other similar connectors, I do not unilaterally assume a roof structure.


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