# conduit - all or nothing?



## saleen4971 (Jan 10, 2016)

hey folks - just moved into my first house recently, and first projects were all plumbing related.  purchased a gas dryer (no hookups for electric, prefer gas anyway), changed water and gas plumbing to be acceptable and less hideous.

also had to replace the water heater on day 3, which was fun.....

on to the question - it seems that the "laundry area" in my basement is simply an outlet on an existing circuit which spans at least 2 bedrooms, and at least 2 outlets in the basement.  

my plan is do ditch the basement outlet leg (currently used for washer/dryer electricity, and is a mix of old and new NM, some cloth wrapped some not) and run a 12-2 from the breaker box on the other side of the basement to a dual gang box on a 20A breaker.  dual gang is necessary since i have a washer, dryer, and drain pump for the sink in the same area.

questions are - i was thinking since the washer/dryer/sink are all next to each other, should i use conduit in the immediate area?  the outlet will be about 5 feet off the floor, but there is both fresh and waste plumbing in the immediate area.  if i run conduit, can it be a short section, or do i have to (should i) run it all the way to the breaker box?  my OCD says that both outlets should look the same, can i run a GFCI breaker with standard outlets?  

thanks for the input!


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## KULTULZ (Jan 10, 2016)

saleen4971 said:


> questions are - i was thinking since the washer/dryer/sink are all next to each other, should i use conduit in the immediate area? the outlet will be about 5 feet off the floor, but there is both fresh and waste plumbing in the immediate area. if i run conduit, can it be a short section, or do i have to (should i) run it all the way to the breaker box? my OCD says that both outlets should look the same, can i run a GFCI breaker with standard outlets?


 
Yes, you can use 15A (or 20A) receptacles after a GFCI breaker. By current code, all receptacles in an unfinished basement has to be GFCI protected, including a sump pump. You might want to consider a GFCI outlet as if it trips you can reset there as opposed to walking to the box.

If the washer/dryer have electronic display you might also consider surge protector outlet(s) for them.

- *Using The GFCI Receptacle In An Unfinished Basement To Feed A Washing Machine* -

(I am not a professional electrician. Allow time for my post to be corrected by a professional.)


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## Snoonyb (Jan 10, 2016)

Also, in your 2 gang box use 2 GFCI receptacles.

As displayed, you can daisy chain receptacles downstream of a GFCI, which is perfectly legal.

The GFCI has both line and load. Pigtail the 12/2 w/grnd to the line orifices.

I prefer to isolate the cause of a failure, instead of unplugging a series of possible causes.

There are also pumps whose initial draw will trip a GFCI, and 20A will allow you some versatility for extension cords.

Twist all like conductors together prior to applying the wirenut, DO NOT just stuff the conductors into a wirenut, and hope.


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## KULTULZ (Jan 10, 2016)

saleen4971 said:


> on to the question - it seems that the "laundry area" in my basement is simply an outlet on an existing circuit which spans at least 2 bedrooms, and at least 2 outlets in the basement.
> 
> my plan is do ditch the basement outlet leg (currently used for washer/dryer electricity, and is a mix of old and new NM, some cloth wrapped some not) and run a 12-2 from the breaker box on the other side of the basement to a dual gang box on a 20A breaker. dual gang is necessary since i have a washer, dryer, and *drain pump for the sink* in the same area.
> 
> ...


 



Snoonyb said:


> Also, in your 2 gang box use 2 GFCI receptacles.
> 
> As displayed, you can daisy chain receptacles downstream of a GFCI, which is perfectly legal.
> 
> ...


 

Morning... 

I am on a very sharp learning curve and wonder if you will explain recommending the two GFCI receptacles ganged and on the same circuit? 

I am not questioning your knowledge... 

I am thinking... :hide:... that it is to provide the additional outlet for the _drain pump for the sink_ (not sure what that is)? If the pump is similar to a sump pump, isn't it required to be on a separate GFCI (12/3 w/GRD - easiest way?) circuit in case something else trips the wash/dryer GFCI, it won't interfere with the sink pump? 

Also, would it be a good idea to put the sink pump on an audible alarm GFCI receptacle in case the receptacle trips? As it is not a major remodel, does AFCI come into play?

*THANX!*


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## KULTULZ (Jan 10, 2016)

> *Under Sink Drain Pumps*
> *
> 
> Under the sink drain pump are used to pump the drain water for laundry tray sinks, bar sinks, multi-compartment sinks, utility sinks, dishwasher, washing machines and other basement remodeling projects. Under the sink drain pumps allows the freedom to install fixtures where gravity drain lines are not available.*


 
*I get it now.. *

*I guess all three should be on one GFCI circuit as if the pump failed the washer would not fill the laundry tub? And would he need two GFCI's or just the one 20A GFCI and one 15A regular duplex receptacle on its' LOAD side?*

*AGAIN, THANX!*

*(Sorry about the capitals)*


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## schlich (Jan 10, 2016)

correct me if i'm wrong but don't each need to be on there own circuit due to start up amps and don't they have to be on an arc fault too


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## Snoonyb (Jan 10, 2016)

KULTULZ said:


> Morning...



From the truly left coast



KULTULZ said:


> I am on a very sharp learning curve and wonder if you will explain recommending the two GFCI receptacles ganged and on the same circuit?



No, not ganged, just in the same "J" box and individually powered from the same 20 or 30A circuit, or 12/3 W/GRND, so that "a" failure, doesn't equate to "all" failure.  



KULTULZ said:


> I am not questioning your knowledge...



I'm sure you have observed some of the exchanges between Neal and I, and it's more about process. Similarly here, we do not know the operating current of the appliances and the pump, or if the pump is a capacitor start, which will affect the response of the GFCI, so, we make assumptions.



KULTULZ said:


> I am thinking... :hide:... that it is to provide the additional outlet for the _drain pump for the sink_ (not sure what that is)? If the pump is similar to a sump pump, isn't it required to be on a separate GFCI (12/3 w/GRD - easiest way?) circuit in case something else trips the wash/dryer GFCI, it won't interfere with the sink pump?



Engineering, is an exact science, based upon assumptions, as it relates to the const. industry. 



KULTULZ said:


> Also, would it be a good idea to put the sink pump on an audible alarm GFCI receptacle in case the receptacle trips? As it is not a major remodel, does AFCI come into play?
> 
> *THANX!*



There are several models that have a battery operated, float activated, alarm system.

AFCI's are interesting. Not generally employed in 3 phase commercial applications, but then, there are not many homeowners working on commercial 3 phase services.


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## KULTULZ (Jan 10, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> No, not ganged, just in the same "J" box and individually powered from the same 20 or 30A circuit, or 12/3 W/GRND, so that "a" failure, doesn't equate to "all" failure.


 
I get it now. Two separate GFCI receptacles to know more quickly which load tripped which breaker(s).

Makes sense... 

THANX!


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## KULTULZ (Jan 10, 2016)

schlich said:


> correct me if i'm wrong but don't each need to be on there own circuit due to start up amps and don't they have to be on an arc fault too


 
Just thinking-

I would think performing load calculation(s) and also on an AFCI breaker. Just do not know if code or AHJ requires AFCI on what stage of rewire.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 10, 2016)

KULTULZ said:


> Just thinking-
> 
> I would think performing load calculation(s) and also on an AFCI breaker. Just do not know if code or AHJ requires AFCI on what stage of rewire.



And, at what point in time, is a sub-panel a simpler solution.


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## saleen4971 (Jan 10, 2016)

The pump I have can't pull much current, the wiring is too small.  It was most likely the cheapest thing the seller could find at home Depot or Lowes.

Got almost everything done today, but I forgot to check which breaker type I have, and picked up the wrong outlet box for the gfci outlet (random mixed in with the others) so after work tomorrow I'll be grabbing those 2, along with a light fixture and led bulb (decided to add another light directly above the washer)

All 20a, 12/2, gfci protected via first outlet.


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## slownsteady (Jan 10, 2016)

did you go with conduit in the area of the plumbing? That seemed to be the orig question.


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## saleen4971 (Jan 10, 2016)

i used flexible conduit up to the sill plate, for aesthetic reasons mostly.  there was an open box that made flexible/water tight conduit cheaper than any other, so i went with that.  plus its pretty


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## KULTULZ (Jan 11, 2016)

saleen4971 said:


> The pump I have can't pull much current, the wiring is too small. It was most likely the cheapest thing the seller could find at home Depot or Lowes.


 
There should be a label on the pump (also wash and dryer) giving you the info you need to calculate LOAD on a circuit(s). Nothing more annoying (other than the wife) than nuisance tripping.

The NM or UF *(?) (need guidance here if UF can be left exposed)* cable has to be in conduit below the sill plate in an open wall or if it is run on the outside of a finished wall (code - and good reason).


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## KULTULZ (Jan 11, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> ...we do not know the operating current of the appliances and the pump, or if the pump is a capacitor start, which will affect the response of the GFCI, so, we make assumptions.


 
Which will create a higher start load, a capacitor enabled electric motor (say air handler) or a motor without a capacitor?


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## Snoonyb (Jan 11, 2016)

KULTULZ said:


> Which will create a higher start load, a capacitor enabled electric motor (say air handler) or a motor without a capacitor?



I'll do a 3-n-1 here.

I believe the the rule states metallic, which would apply to flex, however, was the grnd strap within this flex bonded, or was it just stuffed into the connector.

Conduit and box grnd. bonding ensures a mech. grnd.

When ever I can I choose the full size breakers because they tend to be a slightly slower blow than the stacked or mini and will withstand being limit stressed.

Also the principal of wiring and breaking 20% above load, seems to have not been understood.

I do not receive dinner invitations, but then again, I do not do any warranty
repairs. The difference between budgeting for tomorrow, or for 20yrs.


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## KULTULZ (Jan 11, 2016)

Originally Posted by *KULTULZ* 

 

_Which will create a higher start load, a capacitor enabled electric motor (say air handler) or a motor without a capacitor?_



Snoonyb said:


> I'll do a 3-n-1 here.
> 
> I believe the the rule states metallic, which would apply to flex, however, was the grnd strap within this flex bonded, or was it just stuffed into the connector.
> 
> ...


 
You forgot my question...


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## Snoonyb (Jan 11, 2016)

KULTULZ said:


> Originally Posted by *KULTULZ*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I addressed it in my reference to the class of breakers I prefer, however to be specific, the start-up current in a capacitor motor is closer to operating load at start-up, where a non capacitor motor has an instantaneous spike.IE a  linear sine wave.


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