# Question...Replaceing Receptacles With Duplex Style



## mjordanlmj (Dec 17, 2010)

In my House every outlet is a 2 prong plug in. I want to replace them with 3 prong. There is no place to connect the ground to. My question is can I attach the ground to the outlet box that is nailed to a 2x4??? Or do I need to run a seperate ground to every receptacle??? All the wiring is in good condition and no problems with any overloaded circuits. Also how would I install aGFC in my bathroom ???


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## JoeD (Dec 17, 2010)

If there is no ground present in the box then you must use GFCI receptacles for replacement of the 2 prong. Leave the ground off and label them 'no equipment ground'. If you can find the first receptacle in the chain you might be able to use one GFCI to protect several receptacles.
The same thing applies to the bathroom.

A GFCI receptacle has two sets of terminals, LINE and LOAD. Connect the power wires to the LINE terminals. Connect any cables from downstream receptacle you want protected to the LOAD terminals.


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## mjordanlmj (Dec 18, 2010)

I am not sure if the answer is what I was looking for. Why can't I just put in the three prong receptacle and not hook up the ground? Seems a lot cheaper than GFCI's. Also in the last statment about the GFCI How Is it gonna protect any other cables downstream if it doesn't have a ground?


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## JoeD (Dec 18, 2010)

If does not add a ground. it is just a legal way to install a three prong receptacle. You don't need the third prong unless yo have devices that need it. Many of todays modern appliances are only two prong and will work fine with the two prong receptacles.

It is not legal to install a regular three prong receptacle and not connect a ground wire to it.


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## mjordanlmj (Dec 19, 2010)

JoeD said:


> If does not add a ground. it is just a legal way to install a three prong receptacle. You don't need the third prong unless yo have devices that need it. Many of todays modern appliances are only two prong and will work fine with the two prong receptacles.
> 
> It is not legal to install a regular three prong receptacle and not connect a ground wire to it.


I see... Now that makes sense. I won't get electricuted and I'll be legal when it comes time for an inspection when I sell my house. Thanks Joe D...


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## nealtw (Dec 27, 2010)

the gfi plug trips when you short power to ground so you don't get a shock, what ever else you do you should run new wire to bathroom. A house wired in the fifties should have ground wired to the box have another look!!


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## mjordanlmj (Dec 28, 2010)

nealtw said:


> the gfi plug trips when you short power to ground so you don't get a shock, what ever else you do you should run new wire to bathroom. A house wired in the fifties should have ground wired to the box have another look!!



Well I found A ground at the junction box in the attic and it runs to the ventpipe of the bathroom.... Is that normal ??? Do I just run a ground from the JB to my Bathroom plug???


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## nealtw (Dec 29, 2010)

If the vent pipe is cast iron or copper it will be a good ground but I think you should have a pro look the whole house. This is not for the weekend guy.


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## JoeD (Dec 29, 2010)

Grounding to a water pipe is not permitted by code under NEC.


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## speedy petey (Dec 29, 2010)

nealtw said:


> the gfi plug trips when you short power to ground so you don't get a shock,


Not all true. A GFI trips when it senses an imbalance in current between the hot and neutral. If there is an imbalance it assumes the current is going through a person and trips. This is how we get false trips or trips from wet appliances, etc.
A GFI does NOT trip under fault current (short to ground) situations. 





nealtw said:


> A house wired in the fifties should have ground wired to the box have another look!!


Not at all a certainty. Many homes I see from this era are wired with old ungrounded NM cable or old BX without the bonding strip which CANNOT be used for grounding purposes. 
The ONLY way to be sure is to visually check.





nealtw said:


> If the vent pipe is cast iron or copper it will be a good ground..........


Completely false and potentially unsafe!
There are very specific rules to using a water pipe for a grounding source, and the attic is NOT one of them. In fact, 99.9% of the time it is as easy or easier to run a wire back to the panel.


Neal, I must ask. What is your profession?


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## nealtw (Jan 10, 2011)

Speedy

What is your point. What are your suggestions for mjr or is it your intention to show people how smart you are. I believe in 1956 it was pretty common to ground the main to incoming water lines when water lines were steel. When people hooked fans and things t6hey looked around for the nearest ground they could find and it was often copper pipe and no it wasn't code but it worked. 
To your point about the balance that the gfi uses to trigger. Is there any way it will be out of balance with out ground being involved, whether it be the copper wire or the water you are standing in. With that said the gfi would protect you without a ground wire but you could not test it.


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## nealtw (Jan 10, 2011)

Electrical installation- Converting from 2 to 3 prong receptacles


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## speedy petey (Jan 11, 2011)

nealtw said:


> Speedy
> 
> What is your point. What are your suggestions for mjr or is it your intention to show people how smart you are.


Normally I don't reply to stupid statements like this, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. 
No, that is not my intent. My intent is clear up myths and erroneous information people give out. 






nealtw said:


> I believe in 1956 it was pretty common to ground the main to incoming water lines when water lines were steel. When people hooked fans and things t6hey looked around for the nearest ground they could find and it was often copper pipe *and no it wasn't code but it worked.*


Really, it worked? How can you be sure? 
It WAS code for a while to ground to water pipes. This is when ALL water pipes were metallic and workmanship was something to be proud of. 
It has not been allowed to simply ground to a water pipe for many years now except under certain circumstances. Even then it is only allowed within the first 5' of where a pipe enters the house. I can provide the code text if you like. 
The allowance was removed from the code because people were getting hurt and killed and houses were burning down due to fault current doing some very bad things on it's way back to the source. High resistance connections, joints and pipe sections create a LOT of heat. Also, broken pipe runs and open joints create breaks in the current path causing sections of pipe to become live with voltage.
The suggesting to ground to a cast vent stack is absolutely absurd. 






nealtw said:


> To your point about the balance that the gfi uses to trigger. Is there any way it will be out of balance with out ground being involved,


Yes.



nealtw said:


> ...whether it be the copper wire or the water you are standing in. With that said the gfi would protect you without a ground wire but you could not test it.


You could not externally test it, but the internal test button DOES work. Just ask anyone who has a compliant installation of an ungrounded GFI where a home inspector has flagged it as a defect, simply because his little plug-in tester did not work.


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## speedy petey (Jan 11, 2011)

nealtw said:


> Electrical installation- Converting from 2 to 3 prong receptacles


That illustration is very misleading. Just because you get a neon test light to work from hot to the box DOES NOT mean that there is a *valid and safe* form of grounding path.


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## crazyotter (Jan 21, 2011)

Hi all,
This is my first post in this board!  I have been a lurker for some time, bookmarking pages, searching for answers (finding almost all of them) and enjoying the good info.  I wanted to reply to this post as I had the same issue in the attic of the house we just bought.  We knew the electric was not up to code, the house was built in 1924 and we have k & t  in the downstairs and the attic is a bunch of who knows what.  When we bought the house we brought in an Electrician, he took two minutes and then said abandon this work and start over, in the attic only.  Seems the k & t was fine, but one of the previous owners had decided to tackle the attic project, from this point forward I shall refer to that owner as the butcher!
Anyway, just today I was removing knee walls and getting behind them to plan for the new wiring and I found a ground attached to the vent pipe from the downstairs bathroom!  I called our electrician to tell him and he wants a picture so he can put it in his scrap book!  He also said it is very dangerous!
Anyway, just my :2cents:
Terry
Thanks for all the great info!


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## joecaption (Jan 21, 2011)

Want to add instant resale value and safety to that house? Concider getting the power upgraded and the whole house rewired. The power company in most cases will run a new line from the pole to the house for free that can handle the load on a modern house, Then an electrition can change out that old fuse box and upgrade the old wiring.
You will be shocked (no pun intended) by all the burned up, over heated insulation, bare wires they will find behind those walls.
A modern home needs a min. of 200 amps. How many does your have?


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## speedy petey (Jan 21, 2011)

joecaption said:


> The power company in most cases will run a new line from the pole to the house for free that can handle the load on a modern house,.....


Actually in most cases they simply leave what is there. 
They own and maintain the over head drop so they replace it at their discretion. 
Even if you ask for it to be replaced, many times they will check it out and if it is in sound shape they'll leave it.


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