# Breaker, Breaker 19...



## Rockrz (Jan 18, 2016)

So, if you had a house built in the late 60 / early 70s.... would you replace all the breakers as a preventative maintenance measure?

I'm thinking it may be a good idea... you know, just because.  I spent a lot of years in the automotive repair bidness and it's there that I learned sometimes it's better to replace things before they break down since they say an ounce of prevention is worth 14 tons of cure... er however that saying goes.

Also, I heard in the modern times in which we all be livin in... that they have breakers that are heat sensitive that will shut themselves down based on heat and not just overage im voltage or amps.

I had a maintenance guy at an apartment complex a few years ago tell me there was such a thing and these fancy newfangledy breakers were so safe they were considered to be "fail safe"

I like the idea of fail safe so if this sort of breaker exists, where can I find these bad boys?


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## JoeD (Jan 19, 2016)

> So, if you had a house built in the late 60 / early 70s.... would you replace all the breakers as a preventative maintenance measure?



NO. My house was built 1958 and I am not even contemplating replacing the breakers.

However certain brands of breakers and panels are known to be problematic.


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## Rockrz (Jan 19, 2016)

So these things last forever?

I thought over time and with an increase of power being put thru them (we use mo juice now days than back in tha day) stuff could go wrong and fires could be started and stuff.

Is this true, or is this something those in the biz say to get you to buy new stuff?


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2016)

It might be a good idea to have couple spare kicking around especially if it is some old type that might be hard to find, but I wouldn't change them out.


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## Kabris (Jan 19, 2016)

As we all know nothing lasts forever. Instead of just going ahead and replacing all of the breakers, checking them from time to time would be good preventative maintenance. If you flip them into the OFF position and back ON, see if they still have a good "snap" when you flip them. Over time the spring load in the switch can deteriorate. If you can very easily just turn them OFF and ON, basically sliding them into those positions, that breaker is beginning to fail and should be replaced.


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## JoeD (Jan 19, 2016)

There is not way a home owner can test a breaker to see if it is still working properly.
Turning it off and on proves nothing.


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## Rockrz (Jan 19, 2016)

I heard they have breakers that are heat sensitive that will shut themselves down based on heat and not just overage in voltage or amps.

I had a maintenance guy tell me there was such a thing as "fail safe" breakers.

Where can I find these at???


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2016)

You have to start the hunt with the brand of breaker panel  but heat is what makes all them work.


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 19, 2016)

Do you have a commercial electrical supply house near you? They will know what's available and code compliant for your location. Stay away from the big box stores.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 19, 2016)

Rockrz said:


> I heard they have breakers that are heat sensitive that will shut themselves down based on heat and not just overage in voltage or amps.
> 
> I had a maintenance guy tell me there was such a thing as "fail safe" breakers.
> 
> Where can I find these at???



So, if your service panel is on the sunny side of the building?

Current draw is a heat generator, ask anyone with a ZINSCO panel.


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## Rockrz (Jan 19, 2016)

OK, I was hoping someone would have some specific brands / models to suggest.

I'm simply trying to see if there is some better technology available than 40 year old breakers that are in use now... I'm thinking there probably is, so maybe if I can find a board where electricians hang out I could learn more about what is available that is better and more safe.

Is there a talk forum out there for electricians anyone could recommend?


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2016)

I think you might be looking for arc fault breaker. It's the old wires that have been bent and twisted over time. Like where they are at light fixtures or switches that have been changed, there you might get arcing.
You have to buy a breaker that fits the panel you have so you have to start with that brand . And yes I think you will find a forum.


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## Rockrz (Jan 19, 2016)

I can change the entire panel out to accommodate breakers that utilize better, more safe technology if such a thing even exists.

Surely with modern technology they have come up with something that is more safe, right?


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## Snoonyb (Jan 19, 2016)

Rockrz said:


> I can change the entire panel out to accommodate breakers that utilize better, more safe technology if such a thing even exists.
> 
> Surely with modern technology they have come up with something that is more safe, right?



Actually what you have now is about as good as it gets and while arcfault and gfi breakers are applied specifically.

You can find directed forums by using google.


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## Kabris (Jan 19, 2016)

JoeD said:


> There is not way a home owner can test a breaker to see if it is still working properly.
> Turning it off and on proves nothing.




A homeowner can test the tension on the spring load by turning it on and off to determine if the breaker can mechanically trip.


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## JoeD (Jan 19, 2016)

If you consider turning them off and back on a test then I guess the home owner can test them. Doesn't prove much though.


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## Rockrz (Jan 20, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Actually what you have now is about as good as it gets and while arcfault and gfi breakers are applied specifically.



Really?

In the past 40 years or so there have been no improvements for electrical breakers?


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## JoeD (Jan 20, 2016)

Not significantly that would make one want to change every breaker in the panel.

You sound like you can't be talked out it of so spend your money and upgrade everything.


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## Rockrz (Jan 20, 2016)

JoeD said:


> You sound like you can't be talked out it of so spend your money and upgrade everything.



Not at all, I'm simply inquiring so I can stay on top of whether there is new technology or not...

Since everything else get's better as technology gets better, I had to ask and see if any advances in breaker technology has been made in the past 40 years or not.


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## slownsteady (Jan 20, 2016)

It's interesting that not much has changed. An internet search I tried turned up no info worth a damn.
But what about this very quiet buzz about DC wiring throughout the house??


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## Snoonyb (Jan 20, 2016)

Rockrz said:


> Really?
> 
> In the past 40 years or so there have been no improvements for electrical breakers?




Just the AFCI and the GFCI for residential.

Did you find any of the elec. forums?


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## bud16415 (Jan 21, 2016)

I don&#8217;t know if I would change out working breakers. Most of them most likely have never been tripped by heat. I have felt a breaker that was tripping time to time and in flipping it on and off had a lighter feel than others and replaced it and solved the problem. So there is something to the feel. 

If you want to do something proactive to your old panel you might want to re-torque your connections.


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## speedy petey (Jan 30, 2016)

*"I had a maintenance guy tell me there was such a thing as "fail safe" breakers."*

As we all know, a maintenance man is the best place to get your electrical advice from. 
LOL


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## speedy petey (Jan 30, 2016)

*"A homeowner can test the tension on the spring load by turning it on and off to determine if the breaker can mechanically trip."*

As Joe has repeatedly stated, things like this will prove NOTHING, but if you're convinced, have at it.


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## Rockrz (Jan 30, 2016)

speedy petey said:


> *"I had a maintenance guy tell me there was such a thing as "fail safe" breakers."*
> 
> As we all know, a maintenance man is the best place to get your electrical advice from.
> LOL



LOL... he heard that from an electrical engineer... you know, guys that learn from scientists.

I'm actually seeing companies that claim their breaker is engineered to be "fail safe" in that it detects overages without failing and trips to cut the circuit.  Apparently it detects increased current and increased heat.

It's kinda like a fail safe thermostat for your car... yes, those exist as well.

Some breakers don't trip and overheating occurs and houses burn down.

That's what I'd like to avoid.


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## bud16415 (Jan 30, 2016)

Rockrz said:


> LOL... he heard that from an electrical engineer... you know, guys that learn from scientists.
> 
> I'm actually seeing companies that claim their breaker is engineered to be "fail safe" in that it detects overages without failing and trips to cut the circuit.  Apparently it detects increased current and increased heat.
> 
> ...



In that case put in fuses. 

These breakers are fairly cheep made plastic contraptions and there is a bunch of movable parts inside. Anything that is mechanical has a signature feel to the mechanism. I have learned over the years to never exclude feel as a trouble shooting tool. That along with sound. I have many times had someone tell me a machine didnt feel right or sound right and it felt and sounded fine to me, only to fail shortly. 

These breakers have ether an electro magnet or a bimetal strip in them that reacts to current. And has a linkage that opens contacts. Thats all based around load ramping up and slowly heating or building a pull in the magnet. 

If you Crowbar a circuit dead short like a screwdriver jammed between hot and ground the super high inrush current from the line coming into your house has been known to weld contacts together just like melting the end off your screwdriver if it doesnt get welded in place. A fuse wont do that it burns thru and is designed to extinguish its arc. 

I dont know all the particulars of a failsafe breaker but if I was thinking of building one maybe I would design in series a back up fuse just slightly higher than the rating of the breaker. Say a 15a breaker backed up with a 20a fuse. Just guessing at that as how it could be done.


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## speedy petey (Jan 30, 2016)

*"LOL... he heard that from an electrical engineer... "*

LOL, he said maintenance man.


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## Rockrz (Feb 26, 2016)

Yeah, everyone knows that a maintenance man with a few decades of experience is totally clueless about everything... well, that all depends on the person since some are detailed minded and learn a lot to better themselves in their field while others do not.... "L0L"


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## nealtw (Feb 26, 2016)

Rockrz said:


> Yeah, everyone knows that a maintenance man with a few decades of experience is totally clueless about everything... well, that all depends on the person since some are detailed minded and learn a lot to better themselves in their field while others do not.... "L0L"



My guess is they are all fail safe, as they all work much the same way.
This guy has the flow backwards but it is a good explanation.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSh0f94JwaA[/ame]


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## Rockrz (Feb 26, 2016)

I was watching an expose on the news saying "Federal Pacific" breakers model "Stab Lock" (made from the 50s thru the 80s) are known to have a very high rate of defectivness, as high as 1 in 4 breakers being being bad.

Federal Pacific was investigated and they advertised and claimed that their breakers pass some testing agency standards (forget the name) that sets standards for electrical products, but they lied and knew their breakers were crap.  They went out of bidness.

Now, on this show they had electrical engineers similar with the investigation of the breakers Federal Pacific made and they did say that sometimes it's best to change breakers that are old regardless of who made them... so for those that say you do not, do you know more than these guys?  And, if that is your claim, please post scientific evidence or studies that show breakers last forever and they should never be replaced as they age.

Just wanted to give you fellas opportunity to provide something other than your personal opinion on this before I ignore your recommendation in favor of electrical engineers who at this point appear to be much more knowledgeable than those that say it's a waste of time to install new breakers.

I checked my breaker box and they all appear to be original, or at least they are all the same.  Mine are made by *Zinsco Electrical Products*... which according to info I'm seeing online are also known to be defective.

_Zinsco electrical equipment is considered obsolete, due to a design flaw in which the circuit breaker's connection to the bus bar becomes loose, causing arcing and subsequent overheating. Long term exposure to this heat can cause the breaker to fuse to the bus bar, making it impossible to remove. Even worse, it can cause the breaker's contacts to fuse together, thus preventing the breaker from tripping even in an overcurrent situation, thereby causing a potential fire hazard.

Aftermarket replacements for the Zinsco breakers are available; however, it may be more cost effective simply to replace the entire panel with a more modern and safer design from another manufacturer (such as Eaton, GE, Siemens, or Square-D), depending on the number of breakers to be replaced. If the bus bar shows signs of corrosion, or if any of the breakers show signs of overheating, the panel should be replaced entirely. Many electricians advocate replacement of the panel in any case, due to its historically poor reliability._

source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinsco


More in depth information concerning Zinsco breakers can be found here:
http://inspectapedia.com/electric/GTE_Sylvania_Kearney_Zinsco_Failure.php


So... looks like the correct call here is for me to tell my landlord... not ask, tell... them they need to cough up some cash and install a new breaker box with some modern breakers that meet today's safety standards.

I knew there was some BS goin around from some who had replied earlier


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## nealtw (Feb 26, 2016)

There are people either the city inspector or a company tasked with that job who will be happy to come to your home and inspect the service, if they find something wrong they will pull the meter until it is brought up to code.
Those people will have the only opinion that counts.


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## Rockrz (Feb 26, 2016)

Well, I run my bidness out of the house here and it would be very bad for the electric to be cut from the house suddenly due to some inspection.

So, I'm going to do the smart things and start planning for the breakers, possible the entire breaker box to be replaced on my time... but in the near future.

Once I read from multiple sources that the brand of breakers in the house now are known to fail and are considered obsolete by today's safety standards ... that's all I need to know.  I'm done.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 26, 2016)

Rockrz said:


> source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinsco



Could it be, perhaps, that you are unaware the this source can be edited to portray a desired result?

It is interesting to me, that you reference a handyman and an engineer, yet elect to, because it apparently does not support your preconceive conclusions, discount practical experiences offered you.

FP and ZINSCO, both having suffered their shortcomings are going the way of K & T wiring and fuse blocks.

It's called evolution.



Rockrz said:


> So... looks like the correct call here is for me to tell my landlord... not ask, tell... them they need to cough up some cash and install a new breaker box with some modern breakers that meet today's safety standards.



You should absolutely embark upon this tactic, in fact, you should also hold your breath in anticipation.

However, as a precursor, make a complete inventory of all your possessions and place it in a secure bank vault, with the original purchase receipts, AND
your full replacement value Home insurance policy.

Inform the attorney you hire to compose and author this demand letter of your actions.  



Rockrz said:


> I knew there was some BS goin around from some who had replied earlier



As a response to a forest gump moment?


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## Rockrz (Feb 26, 2016)

Ah yes, another person filled with BS.

Good luck with that, you're going to need it


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## Snoonyb (Feb 26, 2016)

Rockrz said:


> Ah yes, another person filled with BS.
> 
> Good luck with that, you're going to need it



In particular, where I agreed with your preconception?


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## Rockrz (Feb 26, 2016)

I'm sorry, did you say something?

Yer ugly and yo mutha dresses you funny! :






.


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## nealtw (Feb 26, 2016)

Rockrz said:


> I'm sorry, did you say something?
> 
> Yer ugly and yo mutha dresses you funny! :
> 
> .



I went looking at the write up you linked to and the pictures.
Everything does look scary enough.
In the pictures I did notice that they did not show pictures of whole house fires caused by this, that's not saying it hasn't happened.
So my guess is that the main breaker would have to fail too.

I don't know if there is a safe way to test the breaker for tripping at the right time and heat. I can tell you when I made a mistake and shorted out a circuit the main tripped before the 15 amp breaker. That left me wondering about the 15 amp breaker.
Most of those pictures were showing arching where the attach in the box you could pull them and inspect for that.
I think I might change the main out for a new one and make sure smoke detectors are up to date.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 26, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I don't know if there is a safe way to test the breaker for tripping at the right time and heat.



Because time is money, breaker testing is a basic stress test, at what the ambient temp. of the testing facility at the time.



nealtw said:


> I can tell you when I made a mistake and shorted out a circuit the main tripped before the 15 amp breaker. That left me wondering about the 15 amp breaker.



Having worked around several score of Zinsco panels, what I've found is that the load has been increased, without the benefit of having the load balanced, and often the act of balancing the load reduces the frequency of breaker failure, subsequently extending the panels service life.



nealtw said:


> Most of those pictures were showing arching where the attach in the box you could pull them and inspect for that.



The associated heat generated also results in a molecular change in the metals composition and it does not return to its original form,(kinda like a cold shower), and it only exacerbates from there.



nealtw said:


> I think I might change the main out for a new one and make sure smoke detectors are up to date.



How many breaker failures have there been?
Has the service been balanced?

To say, "he's got cards he ain't show'n," is an understatement.


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## Rockrz (Feb 26, 2016)

> I did notice that they did not show pictures of whole house fires caused by this, that's not saying it hasn't happened



Yes, that's the way to go... lets "hope" the faulty breakers don't burn the entire house down.

Any adult with any common sense at all knows that it's better to prevent a potential bad situation before it happens versus cleaning up after it happens.

There is a lot of documentation to be found showing the breakers in my house are known to be faulty and are known to be obsolete when compared to today's safety standards and best practices.

If you're worried about the expense... don't, cause my landlord will pay for it after I have a few electricians come out to look at it (you know, they always recommend replacing old stuff cause they want a payday), and after I show them documentation that these breakers are known to be faulty and are known to be obsolete.

The landlord doesn't want to take the chance of being sued should something bad happen, or be charged with manslaughter should someone die from a house fire after they were told about this.

They own numerous rental properties so they should understand that it's their legal responsibility to make sure their places are safe.

You can't foresee every potential danger in life and prevent bad things before they happen, but this is certainly something that can be fixed easy... so it would be really slow to not be proactive in this situation so simplistic that even a redneck could understand it!



.


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## nealtw (Feb 26, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> To say, "he's got cards he ain't show'n," is an understatement.



I can't say I know enough about breakers to agree or disagree with anything, although I also didn't find much info on how best to deal with fear of a dangerous situation. We don't know if the situation is dangerous but the fear is real.

We always want people to inspect their homes for safety issues and educate themselves on what is safe and what is not.

I don't think I would worry about breaker failure as that is commonly what is said when power no longer is delivered from the breaker. The fear is one being stuck closed that will not turn off the power. To me it seems that is an easy test, if you can turn it off it is not stuck.


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## Rockrz (Feb 26, 2016)

> We don't know if the situation is dangerous



If the breakers are known to be faulty, and they are known to be obsolete when compared to today's safety standards... the gamblers in Vegas would put big money on upgrading to new equipment as being the safe thing to do.

All the debating back and forth is a moot point...


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## nealtw (Feb 26, 2016)

Rockrz said:


> If the breakers are known to be faulty, and they are known to be obsolete when compared to today's safety standards... the gamblers in Vegas would put big money on upgrading to new equipment as being the safe thing to do.
> 
> All the debating back and forth is a moot point...



Maybe, but the other side is true, The people still in business making panels and breakers would make a lot of money if these things were declared a hazard. We can be sure they have the ear of the people who would make rules about this.

I would sooner find some procedure for inspecting them and how often they should be inspected.

Perhaps the insurance companies have something on that. I wonder if they charge a premium for these panels. They would have first hand knowledge of related problems.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 26, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I can't say I know enough about breakers to agree or disagree with anything, although I also didn't find much info on how best to deal with fear of a dangerous situation. We don't know if the situation is dangerous but the fear is real.
> 
> We always want people to inspect their homes for safety issues and educate themselves on what is safe and what is not.
> 
> I don't think I would worry about breaker failure as that is commonly what is said when power no longer is delivered from the breaker. The fear is one being stuck closed that will not turn off the power. To me it seems that is an easy test, if you can turn it off it is not stuck.



The dedication to the pursuit of the "evolving agenda," causes the question of, what's really behind this, what is the motivation, why the dedication too attempting to force this property owner into a subordinate position, instead of moving to a residence that has a brand of electric service panel that meets your approval?


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## Rockrz (Feb 26, 2016)

I'm going to treat this much in the same way I approach my vehicles... if it's really old, I'm going to replace it to help minimize the possibility of a breakdown.

The major difference is on my car, if it breaks down it'll most likely be a situation where I can pull over and call a wrecker or maybe the car won't start... none of which is a real problem other than an inconvenience.

With breakers in a house handling electrical current... a break down in that situation could be much more than just an inconvenience!

This situation could cause loss of all possessions or even death so the stakes are much, much higher.

I'm not much on gambling, so letting it ride after learning these breakers are known to be faulty, and they are known to be obsolete when compared to today's safety standards... is not for me.

But then again, I don't go to Vegas and lose money either like a lot of folks do!


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## Rockrz (Feb 26, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> The dedication to the pursuit of the "evolving agenda," causes the question of, what's really behind this, what is the motivation, why the dedication too attempting to force this property owner into a subordinate position, instead of moving to a residence that has a brand of electric service panel that meets your approval?



Does safety only apply to you and your family... but not to others?

If so, you have no business renting property to other human beings to live in because you apply a different standard to tenants than you do your own family.

I can assure you that if the house burned down, I would sue the living crap out of them because I'm fixing to document to the land lord that they have already dropped the ball by not having an expert come in and see that the brand of breakers in this house are known are known to be faulty, and they are known to be obsolete.

Did I mention the house is almost 50 years old???  Does that not warrant taking a close look at the original breakers still in the house and researching to see if this brand has had issues with their product???

And, if the housed burned and someone died... they can go to prison for being responsible for someone dying!  Stuff like this happens...

So, if you are a landload and you care anything about others as well as keeping your business and your personal freedom... it's in your best interest to make things as safe as possible and document that you are doing so.

Go talk to a few lawyers and a few prosecutors about all this... they'll let you know whassup.


.


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## nealtw (Feb 26, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> The dedication to the pursuit of the "evolving agenda," causes the question of, what's really behind this, what is the motivation, why the dedication too attempting to force this property owner into a subordinate position, instead of moving to a residence that has a brand of electric service panel that meets your approval?



We could, with out much effort believe that this guy want to rent a Cadillac for the price of a Austin.

We could believe he has slumlord that he pays rent to.

Or we could believe that it costs money to move, uprooting kids from schools or what ever that entails.

It doesn't really matter what we think, I suspect hundreds or thousands or millions of people are living in the same situation and discussing it in public is a good exercise.


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## Rockrz (Feb 26, 2016)

And don't forget... under the laws on many states, tenants have more rights than landlords!


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## nealtw (Feb 26, 2016)

Rockrz said:


> And don't forget... under the laws on many states, tenants have more rights than landlords!



But you do want to know that you are right about a complaint before you ruffle feathers with the landlord.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 26, 2016)

nealtw said:


> We could, with out much effort believe that this guy want to rent a Cadillac for the price of a Austin.
> 
> We could believe he has slumlord that he pays rent to.
> 
> ...



Having a discussion is one thing.

Demanding a property owner assuage your paranoia based upon incomplete probabilities of a failure which there is no record of, at that property, is another.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 26, 2016)

Rockrz said:


> Does safety only apply to you and your family... but not to others?
> 
> If so, you have no business renting property to other human beings to live in because you apply a different standard to tenants than you do your own family.
> 
> ...



If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## nealtw (Feb 26, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Having a discussion is one thing.
> 
> Demanding a property owner assuage your paranoia based upon incomplete probabilities of a failure which there is no record of, at that property, is another.



Just because some one has paranoia doesn't make him wrong.:trophy:

I think the question is, is there a procedure to follow when inspecting this that would prove that it is not presently dangerous and how often should it be done.

Only recently the insurance companies have rejected K&T wiring.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 26, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Just because some one has paranoia doesn't make him wrong.:trophy:



It also, does not make them right.

The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself.



nealtw said:


> I think the question is, is there a procedure to follow when inspecting this that would prove that it is not presently dangerous and how often should it be done.



If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

There are hundreds of FP and Zinsco panels in operation in this area. In fact I coud relate to you the methods of changing/upgrading these panels, that used to be the practice before the free space requirements in the panels were changed



nealtw said:


> Only recently the insurance companies have rejected K&T wiring.



It's been well over 10yrs. around here, and was in response to insulation mandates.


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## nealtw (Feb 26, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> It also, does not make them right.
> 
> The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself.
> 
> ...



These people leave no question in there opinion about replacing these things.
Then the question would be is that enough to present to the landlord.
http://www.boyselectricllc.com/uploads/Panel_Information.pdf

Read the disclaimer at the bottom


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## Snoonyb (Feb 26, 2016)

nealtw said:


> These people leave no question in there opinion about replacing these things.
> Then the question would be is that enough to present to the landlord.
> http://www.boyselectricllc.com/uploads/Panel_Information.pdf
> 
> Read the disclaimer at the bottom



I agree with the information presented.

FP parts are extremely difficult to find, so the automatic recommendation is to upgrade. It's more about the value of time, failed efforts as well as the serviceability of present day equip.

As for the Zinsco systems, both "MAY" be problematic if improperly loaded and serviced.

Upon what grounds would you "demand," of the landlord, as the OP has said he would?

Supposition?

You see, the operative word in the link, is "MAY".


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## nealtw (Feb 26, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> I agree with the information presented.
> 
> FP parts are extremely difficult to find, so the automatic recommendation is to upgrade. It's more about the value of time, failed efforts as well as the serviceability of present day equip.
> 
> ...



I suspect his fear is real and he will continue to look for some way to force the landlord.

If I was in that house with the same fear for my family, I would have it inspected for defects like the photos in his link, that would help convince the landlord.
If nothing was found and I was still fearful and I wanted to stay in the house I might offer to pay for part of the upgrade, maybe a side contract to the lease to increase the rent for some amount for so many month.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 26, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I suspect his fear is real and he will continue to look for some way to force the landlord.



The presumption of guilt, without evidence of attributable fault, is a failed policy.



nealtw said:


> If I was in that house with the same fear for my family, I would have it inspected for defects like the photos in his link, that would help convince the landlord.



Were I the tenant I would present my concerns to the property owner and ask for a meeting whereby I could present the basis for my concerns.

This then allows the owner to evaluate the viability of those concerns and respond or not.



nealtw said:


> If nothing was found and I was still fearful and I wanted to stay in the house I might offer to pay for part of the upgrade, maybe a side contract to the lease to increase the rent for some amount for so many month.



The owner may decide that because he has plans to upgrade the property, and the service upgrade would necessarily be part of that upgrade, and the tenant is informed of that.

Or he may say the the improvement will be so disruptive that he plans to vacate the building and the notice will be forthcoming.


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## Rockrz (Feb 26, 2016)

nealtw said:


> But you do want to know that you are right about a complaint before you ruffle feathers with the landlord.



I'll be taking this directly to the landlord and working with them to resolve this issue for the sake of safety.

If the house burns down... the boom will be lowered legally and financially to absolutely ruin them financially and depending on the extent of what happens all avenues will be pursued to see that big government comes in and squishes them like a bug!

Don't worry, they are reasonably minded people who have already spent money on other repairs to keep the property in good shape.  I'm sure we'll be able to come to a good conclusion on this.






Snoonyb said:


> based upon incomplete probabilities of a failure which there is no record of



EPIC FAIL... there is actually documentation that the brand of breakers I'm speaking of are in fact faulty and are in fact obsolete.

If this is how you do business, God help you if something serious happens to any of your tenants because you can easily experience very bad consequences for your lack of knowledge and wisdom.  






Snoonyb said:


> If it ain't broke, don't fix it.



That's a good way to get in trouble badly when it comes to electricity.

This is like the folks that don't want to trim trees... and after a tree / limb causes damage, then they want to do something.

Like closing the gate after all the cows get out... this is ignorance gone to seed when dealing with electricity!

Sure, on things that don't matter this is not a bad way of looking at it since everything cannot be perfect.  Electricity is a whole different animal.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 26, 2016)

Rockrz said:


> I'll be taking this directly to the landlord and working with them to resolve this issue for the sake of safety.
> 
> Don't worry, they are reasonably minded people who have already spent money on other repairs to keep the property in good shape.  I'm sure we'll be able to come to a good conclusion on this.



One of the few practical comments you've made.



Rockrz said:


> If the house burns down... the boom will be lowered legally and financially to absolutely ruin them financially and depending on the extent of what happens all avenues will be pursued to see that big government comes in and squishes them like a bug!



Talk about BS.



Rockrz said:


> EPIC FAIL... there is actually documentation that the brand of breakers I'm speaking of are in fact faulty and are in fact obsolete.



But not where you are a tenant.



Rockrz said:


> If this is how you do business, God help you if something serious happens to any of your tenants because you can easily experience very bad consequences for your lack of knowledge and wisdom.



It won't.  



Rockrz said:


> That's a good way to get in trouble badly when it comes to electricity.



Being subordinate to some pontificator on the internet!

Give me a break!



Rockrz said:


> This is like the folks that don't want to trim trees... and after a tree / limb causes damage, then they want to do something.
> 
> Like closing the gate after all the cows get out... this is ignorance gone to seed when dealing with electricity!



You haven't got a clue.



Rockrz said:


> Sure, on things that don't matter this is not a bad way of looking at it since everything cannot be perfect.  Electricity is a whole different animal.



Everything matters, proportionately.


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## Rockrz (Feb 26, 2016)

Maybe someday you'll have opportunity to play the game... "Fun with Lawyers" when you have not done your due diligence and have damaged or killed someone.

You deserve what you get just for being a smart aleck! :

If you had a brain, you'd take it out and play with it...



.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 26, 2016)

Rockrz said:


> Maybe someday you'll have opportunity to play the game... "Fun with Lawyers" when you have not done your due diligence and have damaged or killed someone.
> 
> You deserve what you get just for being a smart aleck! :
> 
> ...



That doesn't happen to those of us who are personally responsible for the outcome of our action, and do not expect anyone else to carry our water.

It's simply being smarter than what you are working on.


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## Rockrz (Feb 26, 2016)

I'm renting you dipwad... it's the landlord's legal responsibility to provide a safe structure.  If you would have gotten further than the 2nd grade you would understand this... between hits of acid. 

Sorry bud, but you are a complete idiot!

I'll bet you are a liberal right?  A Colonel Sanders supporter?


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