# bizarre clog (and draining)



## rokosz (Mar 5, 2017)

This is a bizarre one (for these untrained eyes).
Here's the set-up:
Two side-by-side vessel sinks have horizontal drains which share a vertical 2" drain between them, that 2" drains into the main line (vertical at that point)
Sinks are in an addition to the house constructed in 2008.
left sink was draining very slowly (immediately begins filling, come back in a couple of minutes to see if its done draining. My wife's - she never said anything to me.)

The right side drains freely.

A couple of years ago I had the same symptoms and never felt satisfied with hand reaming but it was better. At the time also tried a couple of 
doses of drain-o.

This time I rented a power snake. I ran the snake through _both_ left and right traps into the wall -- the snake appeared out of the other trap in both directions. 
I did this multiple times. 
I left the right sink connected and running water. I snaked the left drain and as withdrawing I could feel the cool fresh water on the cable. 
So, remember the right drain is free, the left is blocked -- but the snake found nothing.

Snaked a number of times with short in/out reams along the way hoping to find the down spot or at least breakup the clog. I've found reference to "drop-heads" and "skilled plumbers" can go slowly and "feel" the drop etc. 
I tried all that. no diff.
Finally, I had to return the snake, so one last idea of frustration: I allowed the left sink to fill nearly to the top. 
The right trap was still removed -- nothing overflowed there.
Plunged a few times on the left and pulled the plunger directly up with some aggression/frustration and hark!, I hear drain noise. 

huh? Yes! got it! drained quickly and with the satisfying burp/glug at the end.

Try it again, this time while plunging I left the water filling. Same thing -- 

But! as soon as the sink finishes draining it begins filling again. Confirmed this a few times -- as soon as the volume is gone, it immediately start backfilling again.

The bathroom does have its own stack. But its more on a line with the left sink -- and not the main drain mentioned earlier. (that is to say I don't think the stack is directly connected to the main line -- maybe).

It seems like some sort of siphoning or blocked stack issue. No other fixture has chase problems though: toilet,bath, shower - only the left sink. 

Have you folks got any ideas? I've plunged numerous times -- it always works (even with only a half or quarter filled sink) unless I don't give the plunger a clean "pop" off.

When the sink fills I do see air bubbles coming up from the drain -- not boiling cauldron bubbles but a few smallish sized and much tinier ones.

My wife says, even now with its slowness it is better than before my attempts.

thanks for reading, I hope you can confirm/help/explain!
I've added a 2min. vid showing the plunge/drain symptoms:
www.mountcrumpit.com/vids/slowdrain.mp4


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## slownsteady (Mar 8, 2017)

Your description left me a little confused ( which happens a lot anyway). You have two sinks side by side. Are they teed together? Do they share a trap?
My first reaction is a bubble is getting caught in the drain, possibly just below the pop-up stopper. Have you tried removing that?


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## rokosz (Mar 8, 2017)

slownsteady said:


> Your description left me a little confused ( which happens a lot anyway). You have two sinks side by side. Are they teed together? Do they share a trap?
> My first reaction is a bubble is getting caught in the drain, possibly just below the pop-up stopper. Have you tried removing that?


 
thanks for looking!

Yes, Teed together with separate traps. 
Identical sinks, drains, tail pieces.  Slightly different geometry of pipes after the trap to the wall.
These are vessel sinks with No pop-up drain (decolav vess & drain).  This didn't happen when new

A bubble in the drain?  So by my plunging I push the bubble far enough to allow the plunging hydro pressure to overcome the resistance of the bubble?

How does Mr.bubble get in there?  I've been trying to unscrew the drain cover without success so far -- its fancy I don't want to damage it. There is some gunk on the tailpiece wall but nothing that appears to inhibit the flow
Without the trap on the sink drains fine

Is this kind of common with vessel and/or non-pop drains?


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## slownsteady (Mar 8, 2017)

To release the stopper, you may have to go under the sink and remove the horizontal lever rod. (Then tighten it back up before you use the water!)
Does the sink have an overflow protection hole near the top. That provides venting for any air that gets sucked down the drain when the water is running.


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## rokosz (Mar 8, 2017)

slownsteady said:


> Your description left me a little confused ( which happens a lot anyway). You have two sinks side by side. Are they teed together? Do they share a trap?
> My first reaction is a bubble is getting caught in the drain, possibly just below the pop-up stopper. Have you tried removing that?


 
Thanks for taking a look

Yes the share a T but have separate traps.
The pvc after the traps is not geometrically the same

Vessel sinks and non-pop drains (both decolav)

A bubble? How would one form?
So, my plunging pushes it down to a point where it can't resist the water, the sink drains when I get the gurgle (introducing air back into the stream) the bubble immediately re-forms?

I need to get the drain coverplate off (I've been tender with it since its "fancy" and screws on -- but after eight years its a bit seized.)
With the plate off maybe the physics will change ...

ideas? whys? other questions anyone?


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## rokosz (Mar 8, 2017)

no pop-up drain, no lever -- also no overflow outlet.

is it something with _any_ sink that has no overflow?


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## slownsteady (Mar 8, 2017)

I'm not familiar with "decovalve". Please explain how it works.


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## rokosz (Mar 8, 2017)

Decolav is a manufacturer


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## rokosz (Mar 8, 2017)

Hi SnS,  Decolav is  a manufacturer of (at least) sinks and drains


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## nealtw (Mar 8, 2017)

Not sure but I think 2 sinks with in 30 " can have one trap.


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## Snoonyb (Mar 8, 2017)

Can you post a photo of the sink as well as the undersink plumbing?

Are any of these your fixture;https://www.faucetdirect.com/decola...colav&[email protected]:20170308212818:s


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## slownsteady (Mar 8, 2017)

So let me rephrase the question; how does the stopper work? Do you push it down? What releases it?


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## nealtw (Mar 9, 2017)

Here is what is being suggested by a plumber on another site for setting up two sinks.
http://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/single-sink-vanity-conversion-to-double-sink.69320/


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## frodo (Mar 9, 2017)

you can push a cable thru a big ole glob of yuck  and when you pull it back the yuck will close back up again. 

i need a tad more info.  how far apart are the sinks ? center to center measurement 


what is the distance from the center of the sinks to the 2'' vertical waste stack ?


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## rokosz (Mar 10, 2017)

First a shot of the sinks:
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





the slow one is on the left.  You can see a slight geometric difference in the pvc after the trap on the right one

This is the sink(s) in question
https://www.faucetdirect.com/decola...3-4-round-glass-vessel-lavatory-sink/p1796668

The drain is also a Decolav -- It Is Not a Pop-up drain (there is no built in way to hold water back).

I hear you on the big ole yuckgob closing like a newborn's heartvalve after retrieveing the cable -- but that'd be one helluva gob to flap like that after how many reamings I gave it -- and the hydroforce of the water when it _does_ flow,.

I'm guessing about 4' between sink centers and 2' to the vertical. Here's a shot of what I believe is the 2" dropping below the floor into the main:




You're looking up to the underside of the sink.  the 2" drain would be the 2nd pvc from the left. I'm a little baffled by the 1st pvc from the left. If it went straight up I'd say its the Stack. Which definitely comes out the roof nearly above the left sink.  that 1st PVC appears headed  toward the toilet and the non-drainend of the tub.

Here's a shot of the right side lav 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



really wish I'd taken better pix of the rough-in...

thanks for looking, all.


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## rokosz (Mar 10, 2017)

Nealtw -- looked at that TerryLove link.  given the quality of the GC (and esp. how he strung along his subs from job to job -- he wasn't attracting the highest quality subs) I'm guessing the quality of the "layout" (or "wallout") is Not the best for long-term service.   

Could a partial stack clog in a not perfectly placed stack be a culprit?  All the other fixtures drain fine.  The sink did drain fine for the first number of years. (inservice about 8 now). Tried manual snaking and chemicals a couple of years ago.
I don't think (but certainly could be wrong) that the T between the sinks and the vertical has that downward drop (as in the TL link) on both ends of the horizontal.  Esp. because the elec snake easily found its way to the other trap when snaking.


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## nealtw (Mar 10, 2017)

rokosz said:


> Nealtw -- looked at that TerryLove link.  given the quality of the GC (and esp. how he strung along his subs from job to job -- he wasn't attracting the highest quality subs) I'm guessing the quality of the "layout" (or "wallout") is Not the best for long-term service.
> 
> Could a partial stack clog in a not perfectly placed stack be a culprit?  All the other fixtures drain fine.  The sink did drain fine for the first number of years. (inservice about 8 now). Tried manual snaking and chemicals a couple of years ago.
> I don't think (but certainly could be wrong) that the T between the sinks and the vertical has that downward drop (as in the TL link) on both ends of the horizontal.  Esp. because the elec snake easily found its way to the other trap when snaking.



Have you had the left trap apart?


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## slownsteady (Mar 10, 2017)

You can confirm which one is the drain pipe by running water and being down in the basement to track the sound, or running hot water and feeling the pipe to confirm.
Unless you have a stack for this sink alone, the other sink / fixtures would be affected by a stack clog, so I would say a stack clog is unlikely.
Just for chuckles, take the aerator off the left faucet and run the water to see if it makes a difference.


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## rokosz (Mar 10, 2017)

Hi all,
oh yes, I started with the left trap (being the problem) - this pic was taken at the end of my effort when I was putting things back together.

Yes, SnS -- there's no aerator on the faucet (yeah, want Kohler, waste Kohler)
But I do want to get the flying saucer Decolav drain cover unscrewed -- just don't know how to do it without marring the finish.
Here's the drain  at a fixture site

I guess after a number of years they seize a little bit.  Without the trap and tailpiece on it flows freely -- maybe there's some gunkNhair  of some sort right under the cover that changes the geometry of the water flow to allow a bubble "trap"???   this drain was fine for years. My wife's sink.

I tried to find what flow rate would allow equal drain and fill rates -- its not too much: a stream but not a heavy one.


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## nealtw (Mar 10, 2017)

http://www.us.kohler.com/us/Pop-up-clicker-drain/productDetail/shower-components/425612.htm


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## frodo (Mar 11, 2017)

from the looks of that plumbing job, [[[ugly]]] i would say no fall on the trap arm from the tee to the trap


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## rokosz (Mar 11, 2017)

frodo said:


> i would say no fall on the trap arm from the tee to the trap



<Fall> meaning not enough downhill slope?  And just less enough than the right hand sink (which flows)?

and/or, I keep forgetting this, since the drain did flow properly for at least a few years, whatever "natural build-up" (but not clog)  there might be is enough to bring the lack of "fall" into play?

I'm still wondering if there's some peculiar hydro-dynamic factor involved since the plunge routine (see earlier post for video link) allows quite nice flow once started.

thanks!


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## slownsteady (Mar 11, 2017)

Sometimes there is enough play (not enough support) in the pipes for it to sag a bit over time. And sometimes there is a little play in the tailpiece connection, when - if not snugged up - with the trap can cause the slope to be less.
And yes, a little bit of sludge deposit on the bottom of the pipe can cause a bit of a dam, but I would think the snake should break that up.


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## Snoonyb (Mar 11, 2017)

There are 3 configurations of 1/4" snakes, strait, strait bulb head and drop bulb head and your difficulty in "clearing" any obstruction may well be from one of the first two, which respond to directional feed.


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## rokosz (Mar 30, 2017)

So after all that over-analysis Occam's Razor rises again.

I  didn't want to tye anything else until I'd removed the screw-on drain cap (it wasn't removable by hand).  Finally got an over-large pair of channel locks and using a rubber sheet grabbed edges of the cover with the locks and very carefully squeezed and turned.   Once off there it was, the most common clog situation:  a clot of snot & hair wrapped around the drain vents.  Cleared it and all is good.

Still amazed that that clot (which was no where near completely blocking the drain) could slow the flow so much & have the bizarre ability to jet evac when plunged.  

thanks for all the ideas. They did help understanding and double-checks on the field installation.


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