# Solid brick walls with electric lines nearly exposed



## Shakeyray (Dec 12, 2016)

Hello all, I am making a nursery (first born).  I pulled all the paneling to update the room but found bare wires going from the outlets to the ceiling(with only 3/8 pan elig between the wire aND isnide of the room....14/2 copper...metal boxes with some that doesn't have the box grounded...solid mason walls.

I plan to run conduit, change to 12/2 and keep the metal with grounding the box...switch to a 20 amp switch and breaker a little later...this sound okay?


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## bud16415 (Dec 12, 2016)

Yes if the wires are close the surface and in front of a hard surface like that someone putting a nail in to hang a picture could cut into the wires. That was the easy way out for the person that did it and not at all to code. 

You could do something like you suggest or there is also surface mounted wire raceway that has a snap on cover that can be used inside the room. There is the look of the track though but they can be painted. 

Electric pros will be along and offer their advice as well. 

Welcome to the forum


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## afjes_2016 (Dec 12, 2016)

Shakeyray said:


> Hello all, I am making a nursery (first born).  I pulled all the paneling to update the room but found bare wires going from the outlets to the ceiling(with only 3/8 pan elig between the wire aND isnide of the room....14/2 copper...metal boxes with some that doesn't have the box grounded...solid mason walls.
> 
> I plan to run conduit, change to 12/2 and keep the metal with grounding the box...switch to a 20 amp switch and breaker a little later...this sound okay?



Sorry, a bit difficult to figure out exactly what you are asking. But from what I gather you will remove all wiring from the room and then use conduit. It may be much easier to run MC instead. Working with conduit unless you do it on a regular basis will be quite challenging as the bends are difficult. Suggest you check with your local code office to find out exactly the way it should be done so you don't fail inspection. But either way, conduit or MC you will need to put in studs I would think between the inside mason walls and the new wall you will be putting up. If you are using studs then you can use romex but again you need to check with the local codes officer.

Upgrading the 12 from 14 is fine and leaving the 15 amp breaker for now. But before you do that are you sure that the circuit going to that room is direct from the panel and not stopping at any other receptacle or fixture before the room. If you are not sure you don't want to change out the 15 for a 20 because there may be 14 gauge wire between the panel and the room. Also, you can use a 15 amp rated light switch on a 20amp circuit. It is done all the time.

Are you removing the existing panelling because that will change what I said. After reading what Bud wrote ^^^^ above I realized that maybe you are not removing the existing walls. Can you please clarify.


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## Shakeyray (Dec 12, 2016)

Okay cool...I wanted to make it safe and figured I should update some things.  Surface mount is not an option (the wife would kill me, lol)  Thx, we'll see what the consensus is.


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## Shakeyray (Dec 12, 2016)

There was no plan for a new wall....this is on a solid brick mason exterior wall.  Two boxes is about ten feet from the panel...I am checking when I go to run the wire.  I figured I would replace all that was on that circuit.  I didn't know exactly how to do the conduit though.....maybe put a metal strip over the wire before placing the paneling back up if that's easier. I'm putting the same paneling back up, it's 3/8 birch...real wood

Roger that on the breakers and 12/2.


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## afjes_2016 (Dec 12, 2016)

Shakeyray said:


> There was no plan for a new wall....this is on a solid brick mason exterior wall.  Two boxes is about ten feet from the panel...I am checking when I go to run the wire.  I figured I would replace all that was on that circuit.  I didn't know exactly how to do the conduit though.....maybe put a metal strip over the wire before placing the paneling back up if that's easier. I'm putting the same paneling back up, it's 3/8 birch...real wood
> 
> Roger that on the breakers and 12/2.



Even if you were to run conduit there is no room to insert the conduit into the metal boxes because the boxes would be inside the brick walls; you would not be able to use the existing inserted metal boxes; the ones you would use would be surface mount to the paneling surface. You can not use MC either as it would be easy (with a little effort) to drive a nail or screw into the MC either when putting up the paneling or in the future hanging a picture or something else. Your only option I would think it the raceway wire mold which you said your wife would kill you. You can paint the wire mold any color you want to match the paneling. But the boxes for switches and receptacles will stick out from the wall as there would be no way to terminate the wire mold to the existing inserted metal boxes in the brick wall. I have also seen very nice looking conduit painted the just right color actually enhance the look of a room when painted just right and installed properly. If you end up with the only option of either wire mold or conduit I would go with wire mold if you are doing it yourself as again, working with conduit is very tricky. You can buy offsets and elbows instead of making the bends yourself but they get expensive. Either one you have to plan the number of conductors in the raceway so as not to over crowed them with too many conductors. I would do some more research before you decide on either way.


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## Snoonyb (Dec 12, 2016)

What are the dimensions of the furring and what is there projection from the masonry wall?


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## bud16415 (Dec 12, 2016)

Little hard to see in your picture but it looks like your box stands out from the brick wall and is flush with the eventual paneling. The stripping that holds the paneling looks to be 1X stock so it is ¾ thick. It would have been nice if they used 2X stock and with a bit more room would have had a place for foam board insulation. Don&#8217;t know the climate where you live but 1.5 insulation would have helped quite a bit and left room for wiring. If you are taking all the paneling down you could double the 1X and make that room, maybe. As is I think I could get ½ conduit to work. you might have to chip out some brick to get the conduit into the box with a bit of an offset and getting a hole in the box might be fun but it can be done IMO. No need to change wire size for a light also and you need to get the appropriate wire for running inside conduit. 

Where there is a will there is a way.


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## Shakeyray (Dec 12, 2016)

Bud is right-on with his visual analysis.  They used the 1xs for a total of 3/4 inch depth and the box is flush with the paneling installed.  Well afjes, I guess it's up with a new wall.  The wife did not like the idea of live wire in a pipe in the baby's room.  But should I do the standard 2x4 wall or flip them sideways since there is no load bearing wall?  I'm in north florida....and actually have some foam panels that my father gave me but was scared it would cause moisture problems.


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## bud16415 (Dec 12, 2016)

Solid brick walls in Fla who would have thought. Up north I guess you have the influence of Ga and SC and such with the brick yards and all. Brick is a massive heatsink in both directions but I would want insulation and with foam board and then sealing the edges with can spray foam the finished product IMO is the same as having the room sprayed only a lot less money. How thick and all that is up to how much room you can afford to lose and how you will deal with window depth etc. if you are going to flip them sideways just add another 1X strip the ones you have are already anchored to the brick.   

Back to the conduit question for a minute when you say bare wires in a pipe the wires are not bare they have an insulation designed to be placed in the conduit. It is not unsafe in any way and may even be more safe than any other method to run them. If you are worried about the baby and safety I would GFCI the whole room even if code didn&#8217;t require it.


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## Snoonyb (Dec 12, 2016)

You are better off adding 3/4" depth to what you have, in stead of using 2X4's on the flat, because they bow.

Amending the existing boxes to accept conduit will risk displacing them and then they'll need to be reset.

Just carefully chip the grout away from the connector and replace, or leave, the existing romex, unless you have some high powered appliance you are installing in the nursery.


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## afjes_2016 (Dec 12, 2016)

Shakeyray said:


> ...Well _afjes_, I guess it's up with a new wall.  The wife did not like the idea of live wire in a pipe in the baby's room.  But should I do the standard 2x4 wall or flip them sideways since there is no load bearing wall?...



I am not qualified to give you advice on building materials and techniques. I will leave that for someone in the forum who has knowledge of both electrical and building.


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## bud16415 (Dec 12, 2016)

afjes_2016 said:


> I am not qualified to give you advice on building materials and techniques. I will leave that for someone in the forum who has knowledge of both electrical and building.



I am neither but as far as I know if you get a hole in the box anyplace that will take the conduit nut and secure it is good.   in this case I think I would just take that box off the wall and add the hole and chop the bricks as needed. With the box in the shop it shouldnt be too hard to make a hole if none of the knock out are right. That is if we go back to plan one. With plan 3 do what Sononyb said.


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## nealtw (Dec 12, 2016)

Water will wick up thru concrete to warmth, that is why wood should never touch concrete or masonry. We would build a 2x4 wall not quite touching the brick with sheet poly between the wall and the floor. That allows wiring and insulation..


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## afjes_2016 (Dec 13, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> ...  in this case I think I would just take that box off the wall and add the hole and chop the bricks as needed. With the box in the shop it shouldn&#8217;t be too hard to make a hole if none of the knock out are right...



NOTE: Just a heads up on altering a device box (as in adding a hole)

Some inspectors will fail you for doing such things. Once, I had to add a screw to a plastic new work device box for a receptacle to anchor it against the stud better; put the screw through the body of the device box. I failed my rough inspection on that one box/one screw alone. Reason: Inspector stated I compromised the integrity of the box. He said the box was approved by UL standards for the present design as purchased; making any permanent changes to it as in putting a screw through it compromised it. I quickly pulled that one out and put a new one in as he stood there speaking and he passed me.


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## bud16415 (Dec 13, 2016)

afjes_2016 said:


> NOTE: Just a heads up on altering a device box (as in adding a hole)
> 
> Some inspectors will fail you for doing such things. Once, I had to add a screw to a plastic new work device box for a receptacle to anchor it against the stud better; put the screw through the body of the device box. I failed my rough inspection on that one box/one screw alone. Reason: Inspector stated I compromised the integrity of the box. He said the box was approved by UL standards for the present design as purchased; making any permanent changes to it as in putting a screw through it compromised it. I quickly pulled that one out and put a new one in as he stood there speaking and he passed me.



Like I have said before Im not a certified electrician. But I spec and design a lot of industrial electrical installations we try and use all NEMA type store bought enclosures and such but every day we alter them adding holes and such and sometimes even building our own enclosure to suit a strange configuration. I know industrial wiring and home wiring are two different animals and thanks for pointing that out. 

I would have thought in your case the inspector would have taken a look and made a judgment call if you had really damaged the integrity of the box or made the installation actually better as it was more secure. I know exactly what you did as I have done the same thing rather than leave a box wiggly. 

After I typed that I did think about changing the directions I gave as some locations to enter a little box like that could be problematic when putting it back together. So some thought needs to go into the location. Given he pulls the box he might as well replace it with a double and then if he was to chip the brick back he could just use one of the side knock outs and have more room to work and for conduit nuts and wires on the unused side. All to code even with an inspector.


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## bud16415 (Dec 13, 2016)

Actually after looking at the photo again I have a question for the pros. 

If the OP took a strip of steel and attached to the wood strip so it hung out over the area of the wire to prevent nails and screws poking into it would it now be up to code?


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## buffalo (Dec 13, 2016)

Why not just build a 2x4 wall like any other wall.  Cover the brick with plastic like neal said . A 2x4x8 here is a little over 2$ . The nail on receptacle box is .47$ , the outlet is .98$ .then you can insulate good too.


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## bud16415 (Dec 13, 2016)

buffalo said:


> Why not just build a 2x4 wall like any other wall.  Cover the brick with plastic like neal said . A 2x4x8 here is a little over 2$ . The nail on receptacle box is .47$ , the outlet is .98$ .then you can insulate good too.



In a 10x10 room doing that you will only lose 1 to 2 square feet. If is just one wall then less than a half a square foot. window jams and such will need to be extended. Good way to go.  :agree:


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## Shakeyray (Dec 13, 2016)

Wow, you guys are great...very active forum.  I now have to many ideas, lol.  As far as inspection...let's just say are local guy isn't the smartest cookie in the jar.  Nonetheless, this will look good when done and be top notch ready for any inspection.  I appreciate the help!

Moving on...I have nice birch to put back up, so adding any width will require framing different for the windows as mentioned and cutting the paneling....but I really like the idea of adding the 1xs to make it 1 1/2 total and put in the insulation.  I saw at lowes today that there are 1 7/8 metal boxes which could attach straight to the brick.  Now, suppose I use both old boxes' holes for a space for cable and cat6....then attach metal boxes to the left of the original where they simply run straight up?  

Building the 2x4 wall sounds good too because I can eliminate the wood on the wall....but this room is 13 x13....kinda small already.  But it seems like that would give me LOTS of room for electrical and a good air gap.  However, a major caveat, and a big one, this is solid brick so I already have like 7 or 8 inches on that window.....that would give me around 10.5 or 11 inches to frame up.

I'm about to dye the concrete for the floor....will not be actually doing the electrical yet....lots of thinking here.


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## nealtw (Dec 14, 2016)

You are into this far already if you decide to use the 1x4 or add another, that them off the wall and and put a moisture break between them and the brick, sill gasket, tar paper or sheet poly.
https://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/...l-Poly-Sill-Plate-Gasket/_/N-nthtw/R-I2611212
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFtOKJo6uyQ[/ame]


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## nealtw (Dec 14, 2016)

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4lWqr6El9Y[/ame]


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