# Bathroom layout help



## JessicaK (Feb 5, 2016)

Hi! I'm very new to all things home improvement. So new that I don't even own the home yet! But we have fallen in love with this home, but it needs a second bathroom. Luckily there is some wonderful unfinished space, I just am unsure how to best utilise it, which is where I need your help! The space is under the attic eves, so head room is the largest issue. The room is about 24ft long, and the best description of the width it's in the picture. My lovely realtor model is 6ft even, so he makes a great reference point. 

We had a plumber come look and he said it shouldn't be a problem to plumb, but talked about putting the sink on the tall wall, and the stool also on the tall wall or the end. I would love to figure out a layout that would let us also put a tub some how, and everything I've seen from looking at ideas online suggests the toilet on the short wall to leave the head room for the walking path. I'm also concerned that a sink on the tall wall would make a person have to tilt their head to walk around it to the stool. 

I know part of it has to do with how far the short wall goes in, that a toilet would have to be significantly out from the wall to allow it to be on the short wall. What do you think? How can I make this space a simple but not awkward bathroom?


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## frodo (Feb 5, 2016)

measurements ?


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## nealtw (Feb 5, 2016)

Right after thinking you are nuts, I thought about a dormer in the roof to make it an actual room.
That might be more than you were thinking of so try this. Put the toilet at the end behind you in the picture.
Build another knee wall  at the 4 ft mark and install the sink against that wall to your right, A slim line sink so you can get past it.
For more head room at the sink you could install a raised sky light just above the sink.
The bigger problem is how you run the pipes but you said the plumb thought he could do it. His suggestion also included running the pipes so check with him before you settle on a different plan.


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## frodo (Feb 5, 2016)

..................


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## nealtw (Feb 5, 2016)

frodo said:


> ..................



If the man is 6 ft, I make it a little over 5 ft wide and 8 something high
About 30" high on the low end and I think he said 24 ft long.


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## oldognewtrick (Feb 5, 2016)

If I were going to spend the money to install a bath, I'd save a little longer and have a shed roof put up and make the whole area a lot more useable. Just my :2cents:


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## bud16415 (Feb 5, 2016)

I agree with Neal and Oldog a shed dormer would be the way to go. Start at the peak and run down to about 7&#8217; add a window or two being a long skinny room. Below the window a long counter top with his and hers sinks. The very far wall all tile shower at least 4&#8217; deep 5&#8217; would be better. You have a very long but not wide room so stretch things in that direction to make the room seem larger. Enter the room with an inswing door with hinges to the right such that the door goes against the stud wall. when you walk in the door the toilet will be to your left with its back against the new wall of the dormer. Toilet will face the stud wall in your picture. Again the length is your friend don&#8217;t cram the toilet into a tight spot leave 12&#8221; to 18&#8221; on both sides before the counter top starts. 

If cost is an issue and you being new to DIY I would suggest you hire the dormer built and all outside finished by a pro. Hire a plumber to do all the rough in if you feel that is going to be too much to handle also. Then the building of the bath would be a great DIY project to get your feet wet with. Pun intended. The guys here would love to walk you thru the steps.

 As a side note if the master is on the other side of that wall put the door in that wall or that wall and the end wall.

Oh I almost forgot,  to the forum


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## frodo (Feb 5, 2016)

................


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## JessicaK (Feb 5, 2016)

With a small child, a bathroom on the same floor with the bedrooms is a pretty immediate need. Purchasing this home and putting SOMETHING in is going to about tap us out, so a dormer is out of the books at least for a few years. Everything on the other side of the wall is finished, including where the door is (about smack dab in the middle of the length of the run)

Thoughts continue to seem to place the sink along the tall wall. Wouldn't putting it on the left (short wall side) allow your head room to be utilized more as well as allowing walk to toilet easier?

Such as the placement of stool and sink in this picture.


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## bud16415 (Feb 5, 2016)

That is a great layout, but the short wall is closer to the one I showed in the new shed dormer photo I made you. Your wall stops at about the height of the toilet tank or the sink.


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## JessicaK (Feb 5, 2016)

Here is kind of the ergonomics that I'm thinking, but maybe I'm deluding myself.


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## JessicaK (Feb 5, 2016)

Or this for the sink


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## bud16415 (Feb 5, 2016)

It will work yes. If your starting point is high enough if your guy is 6&#8217; I&#8217;m thinking your starting point is about 2&#8217;8&#8221; pretty sure your roof looks like 12/12

Brushing teeth might be interesting.


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## nealtw (Feb 5, 2016)

frodo said:


> ................



I like this plan, I would just extend the brown wall all the way and put the sink against that wall. post 8


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## bud16415 (Feb 5, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I like this plan, I would just extend the brown wall all the way and put the sink against that wall. post 8



I never saw a walk thru shower except in gym class. Latest thing I guess. 
Dont your feet get wet if someone just took a shower before you and you need to go?


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## nealtw (Feb 5, 2016)

Just pick up a unit out of a camper, it will fit in 3 ft sq.:


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## bud16415 (Feb 5, 2016)

Actually if that was my house I know exactly what that room would become and not a bathroom. She would have it become one huge closet with shoe racks and shelf and hanging rods at different heights. If it was 24&#8217; long she would get 22&#8217; for her stuff and I would get 2&#8217; for mine. I would then look at the big picture and maybe remove the other closets or even some walls and find a location best suited to a second floor bath. Something that worked well with plumbing locations and the floors below. 

Sometimes backing away from a problem and looking at it from outside the box is better.


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## nealtw (Feb 5, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Actually if that was my house I know exactly what that room would become and not a bathroom. She would have it become one huge closet with shoe racks and shelf and hanging rods at different heights. If it was 24 long she would get 22 for her stuff and I would get 2 for mine. I would then look at the big picture and maybe remove the other closets or even some walls and find a location best suited to a second floor bath. Something that worked well with plumbing locations and the floors below.
> 
> Sometimes backing away from a problem and looking at it from outside the box is better.



Yes, a toilet and sink fits nicely into 3x6 closet, that is a 1970s en suite.


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## JessicaK (Feb 5, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Actually if that was my house I know exactly what that room would become and not a bathroom. She would have it become one huge closet with shoe racks and shelf and hanging rods at different heights. If it was 24 long she would get 22 for her stuff and I would get 2 for mine. I would then look at the big picture and maybe remove the other closets or even some walls and find a location best suited to a second floor bath. Something that worked well with plumbing locations and the floors below.
> 
> Sometimes backing away from a problem and looking at it from outside the box is better.



The rooms have the other side of the roof for their closets. This space is right above the kitchen and the plumber thought the route for the pipes looked great. 

And, luckily, I am the "she" and have no need of incredible storage for shoes.  just need a second bathroom for our growing family.


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## nealtw (Feb 5, 2016)

JessicaK said:


> The rooms have the other side of the roof for their closets. This space is right above the kitchen and the plumber thought the route for the pipes looked great.
> 
> And, luckily, I am the "she" and have no need of incredible storage for shoes.  just need a second bathroom for our growing family.



Is all that wall brick?


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## JessicaK (Feb 5, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Is all that wall brick?



No, it is open to the studs, you are seeing the back side of the plaster wall. The house was built in 1914.


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## nealtw (Feb 5, 2016)

JessicaK said:


> No, it is open to the studs, you are seeing the back side of the plaster wall. The house was built in 1914.



Is the bedroom on the other side. With a door for the sink and toilet and a door for the shower this becomes easy enough. Have open framing on that side makes it even easier.


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## bud16415 (Feb 5, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Is all that wall brick?



Thats not brick thats the back of the lath.


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## bud16415 (Feb 5, 2016)

JessicaK said:


> The rooms have the other side of the roof for their closets. This space is right above the kitchen and the plumber thought the route for the pipes looked great.
> 
> And, luckily, I am the "she" and have no need of incredible storage for shoes.  just need a second bathroom for our growing family.



No offence I hope about the closet comment and women liking closets. 

I know where Neals mind is going I will let him fly with the plaster wall idea.


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## frodo (Feb 5, 2016)

before you go any further

what size are the floor joists under the bath to be?      they need to  be 2x8 minimum,


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## JessicaK (Feb 5, 2016)

frodo said:


> before you go any further
> 
> what size are the floor joists under the bath to be?      they need to  be 2x8 minimum,



I raised this concern with the plumber. I'm not sure if he could tell from looking in the basement, but he said the floor was great. Now that I know what number to look for, I will check as well when it gets opened up. 

The other side of the wall on that end is the stairs. The current door into this space is right on the landing that opens to the bedrooms, so well placed by our view, with the exception that maybe the bathroom is a little deep, but due to the stairs, you can't really change that unless you went to the other end of the space, which would increase the plumbing distance and floor rip up need. 

Here is a little diagram my husband made of the upstairs. It's not greatly to scale, but at least shows how things are kind of set up.


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## JessicaK (Feb 5, 2016)

frodo said:


> before you go any further
> 
> what size are the floor joists under the bath to be?      they need to  be 2x8 minimum,



Oh, and it's hard to go any further, we don't even own this house yet! Hoping to put an offer on on Sunday!


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## frodo (Feb 5, 2016)

JessicaK said:


> I raised this concern with the plumber. I'm not sure if he could tell from looking in the basement, but he said the floor was great. Now that I know what number to look for, I will check as well when it gets opened up.
> 
> The other side of the wall on that end is the stairs. The current door into this space is right on the landing that opens to the bedrooms, so well placed by our view, with the exception that maybe the bathroom is a little deep, but due to the stairs, you can't really change that unless you went to the other end of the space, which would increase the plumbing distance and floor rip up need.
> 
> Here is a little diagram my husband made of the upstairs. It's not greatly to scale, but at least shows how things are kind of set up.



that is not good news,  your bathroom just got 3 1/2'' smaller.

stairs should have a rim joist around it, if the wall is sitting on the rim joist
plumbing can not come up thru the joist. SO..a another wall needs to be built in front of that joist/wall

..............


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## nealtw (Feb 5, 2016)

Frodo is looking for the height from the ceiling below to the floor upstairs less ceiling plaster,  sub floor and finished floor. I would expect this to be balloon frame and 2x6 joists


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## nealtw (Feb 5, 2016)

How long is the wall from the stairs to bedroom 2 and which set of stairs comes up to this floor?


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## bud16415 (Feb 5, 2016)

The house you are looking at is a little newer than the one we bought a couple years ago ours is 1870&#8217;s but the construction methods are close I&#8217;m sure. They are framed much different than modern construction and built like tanks. 

What we did is when we made an offer and it looked like it was going to go we asked the realtor for a couple hours in the house to do measurements. If you go room by room and measure and find where doors are and such and get a rough idea how thick walls are you can make two plans first floor and second floor and lay one over the other. I did mine as a 3D cad drawing but if you don&#8217;t have that you can do paper and pencil just fine and draw on a tracing paper you can see thru. Until you get to that point don&#8217;t get too into details other than you will figure out a way to get a bath up there and we can help you do it to a budget. 

Sometimes people include some of that cost in with the loan but doing that the bank will have none of this DIY stuff. get the place for as little as you can and don&#8217;t muddy the waters with talk of changing anything till after you get it. 

Only one bath is a great discount point to make in the offer.


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## JessicaK (Feb 5, 2016)

frodo said:


> that is not good news,  your bathroom just got 3 1/2'' smaller.
> 
> stairs should have a rim joist around it, if the wall is sitting on the rim joist
> plumbing can not come up thru the joist. SO..a another wall needs to be built in front of that joist/wall
> ...



My understanding was that the plumber was going to go strait down from the attic room, through the kitchen and into the basement, never entering the stair space. 

I've shown my husband some of this, he is really impressed with the forum. I'm guessing he will be on to post more specific measurements.


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## nealtw (Feb 5, 2016)

We understand where the pipes are going. Each question we ask is because someone has some detail that they want to explore depending on the answer. So just find the answers when you can and see what they come up with.


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## JessicaK (Feb 5, 2016)

nealtw said:


> We understand where the pipes are going. Each question we ask is because someone has some detail that they want to explore depending on the answer. So just find the answers when you can and see what they come up with.



I don't own this home. I only get the chance to see it when I request a showing with my realtor. It's not that I'm trying to be difficult. This project is just in the idea stage at this point, so exact measurements aren't even on the drawing board at this point. I am trying to establish if this house will allow a bathroom to be installed without looking completely haphazard and within a budget that makes this house worth it, other wise we would need to find a different home that already has 2 bathrooms.


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## oldognewtrick (Feb 5, 2016)

I know you said money was tight, but...I'd still get an estimate to see what the cost of putting a shed roof up there would be. If you haven't closed, get that cost rolled into the loan. I'll shut up now.


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## JessicaK (Feb 5, 2016)

oldognewtrick said:


> I know you said money was tight, but...I'd still get an estimate to see what the cost of putting a shed roof up there would be. If you haven't closed, get that cost rolled into the loan. I'll shut up now.



I do love this idea and am thinking it might be the best way to achieve the finalized feel that we want. I'm quite sure it is out of the price range for now, but in a few years would be a nice way to expand if we could set things up now to have a stool and sink, in a confirmation that is functional now and will allow this as an addition in the future. 

We are so far from closing, we haven't even made an offer yet. Every place I've called wants to charge us a "service fee" for an estimate because we don't own the home. It is definitely something I will look into more once we have made an offer. 

I asked the bank about increasing the loan amount to include some funds for an upgrade. She sort of mumbled something about how that doesn't work and suggested we put less down on the home and use that money to do the work instead. I don't quite get why she was saying that, as she said we would easily be approved for an additional 20k if we wanted to look at higher priced homes. I need to do some more shopping around for banks. 

Sorry for being defensive. The message I read from nealtw essentially translated as: "It doesn't matter if our questions don't make any sense to you.  Just answer them!"


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## JessicaK (Feb 5, 2016)

frodo said:


> that is not good news,  your bathroom just got 3 1/2'' smaller.
> 
> stairs should have a rim joist around it, if the wall is sitting on the rim joist
> plumbing can not come up thru the joist. SO..a another wall needs to be built in front of that joist/wall
> ...



Here are a few more photos of the space. On the upper landing, you can see a board that creates a bit of a ledge on the wall where the stairs are going down. Is this the rim joist? I will not have an opportunity to get back into the house for a while, so this is the best I can do.


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## JessicaK (Feb 5, 2016)

Stair way with ledge


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## frodo (Feb 6, 2016)

i have a crazy Idea,  what are the dimensions of bedroom 1 ?  that is going to be the bedroom for the litle fella on the stairs , right ?

why not, make bedroom 1,  the bathroom,  and the attic space the little Dudes room?

he is little enough that height restrictions wont bother him abit. 
and then down the road.  when your finances are a little better, you can bump out the roof, and give the now teenager some head room
[/ATTACH]


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## slownsteady (Feb 6, 2016)

I think you can get a toilet and a sink in that space...not so sure about a shower.
The reference pic of a finished bath shows a short wall that is about five feet tall; that would be about hubby's shoulder in the first picture. you could go a bit shorter, but not much. The ergonomics sketch of a man sitting down shows a much lower seat, so that doesn't quite work either. I tried to combine the two pics, but the scale and perspective aren't quite right. I matched the the inside wall and the roof line and this is what I get, FWIW:

If you put the fixtures on the inside wall, on either side of the door, you won't be banging your head.
If you really like the house and you feel you can live with just a WC for now, then why not go for it?


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## zannej (Feb 6, 2016)

Keep in mind that you need to consider the placement of your water supply lines for this space. If you live somewhere that gets freezing temperatures, it might be against code to have them in an exterior wall. You can generally have the vents in the exterior wall though.

You also need to consider the electrical runs because you need to have at least one GFCI outlet within (I think) 2-ft of the sink. 

Did your husband also make a sketch of the floor below to get an idea of what fixtures are where in the kitchen so we can have a general idea of where the plumbing will go?

Oh! And if you don't have a window in that room, you will need to install a vent fan to get the moisture out. It will need to vent to either the outside or through ducting. Hell, even with a window you might still need a vent fan.

I know you might not be able to answer all of these questions without being able to look at the house again, but I would bring some stuff up.

Good luck on the house buying!


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## oldognewtrick (Feb 6, 2016)

If you go with SNS's suggestion, rough in the plumbing service to accommodate future plumbing needs if you ever do add a dormer roof down the road.


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## JessicaK (Feb 6, 2016)

frodo said:


> i have a crazy Idea,  what are the dimensions of bedroom 1 ?  that is going to be the bedroom for the litle fella on the stairs , right ?
> 
> why not, make bedroom 1,  the bathroom,  and the attic space the little Dudes room?
> 
> ...



I'm not sure that would work at all. Mostly because the attic space doesn't have any heat going to it, which we thought would be ok for a bathroom if we did radiant heat in the flooring. Bedroom 1 is significantly larger than the diagram shows. Mentally I put Hubby and I in bedroom 1 with our daughter and an eventual #2 sharing bedroom 2 until they are old enough that hubs and I feel they need their own rooms and don't need us right there, so we would move to the bedroom downstairs. Here is a picture of bedroom #1. The bed is still farther to the left.  It has a little side room which is shown. I know might fit a bathroom better, but I don't think the plumbing would be as easy, and the side room really makes it a more desirable size, assuming that would be where you keep the dressers and then it's a "dressing room"


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## JessicaK (Feb 6, 2016)

Here is the whole house floor plan. It was made just to help us think about the space and remember it from all of the other houses we have seen, so it is not very well to scale, and he was not confident about having the North wall the same on each floor! I have tried to label the North wall to help switch it around.


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## zannej (Feb 6, 2016)

Is the water heater in the basement? I'm assuming washer and dryer are in the basement as well. It would help to know where the hot water runs from as well as an estimate of where the cold water comes in to the house.

I wonder if that kitchen sink has an S-trap. Since it is under a window, I'm guessing that it does. Older homes are less likely to have a proper drain-waste-vent (DWV) system in place unless they were updated to more modern plumbing codes. 

It looks like Bedroom 1 is over the main floor bathroom. But it is awkwardly placed and I'm not sure how the walls line up. I wonder if it would be possible to take part of Bedroom 1 and make it into a bathroom-- but then you have the problem of how to access it. If it were under the north part of bedroom 2 then you could cut a little out of both bedrooms and have a jack & jill bathroom-- doors entering bathroom from both bedrooms-- between them (although I'm not overly fond of that kind of bathroom-- some people like them). 

Knowing where the fixtures in the downstairs bath are might help to guess about where the plumbing for it might be.

These sketches are helpful in getting a better idea. Speaking of which, have you heard of Google Sketchup? It lets you convert 2D drawings to 3D layouts. It takes a bit to get used to it and I'm still learning the ropes on it. But if you have the time and inclination, it's pretty fun to make the sketches and get a better idea of what things will look like.


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## slownsteady (Feb 6, 2016)

I don't know how many times the happy couple has visited this house, but I'm sure that kind of detail is lost in the big picture. At this point, it's obvious (I guess) that we can find a way to make it work. The next step is for JessicaK and family to decide how much they like that house, and if so, take a _deep look_ with the realtor into the plumbing, electrical, construction details (as best as possible) and what it's worth to them. We'll be here when they decide :beer:


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## zannej (Feb 8, 2016)

I forgot to mention, on the heating thing for the bathroom, since you will need to have a vent fan for the space to remove the moisture, you could go with one that is a fan AND heater. They sell various combos: vent+light, vent+heat, vent+light+heat. There is a formula to figure out the CFM required for the room. It's the volume of the room divided by 7.5. Getting a good fan with heat would be cheaper than in-floor heating, but you could do both.


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## slownsteady (Feb 8, 2016)

A bath heater/fan is designed for use when you're in the shower, not for constant use. You would need heat there full-time to protect the plumbing. (assuming the location has winter conditions)


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## zannej (Feb 14, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> A bath heater/fan is designed for use when you're in the shower, not for constant use. You would need heat there full-time to protect the plumbing. (assuming the location has winter conditions)



Ah. Good point. I was just thinking about warming the space while people were in it.


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## JessicaK (Feb 15, 2016)

We didn't get the house.  

It's been on the market for 3 months and the seller owes the asking price on the house. She's only willing to go $2,500 in closing costs with the original price, and at that price, we don't have enough budget left to fix the many many things that need help. 

Thanks for all the advice though.


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## nealtw (Feb 15, 2016)

Good luck with the search, don't fall in love with anything, and come on back.


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## bud16415 (Feb 15, 2016)

:agree:  Thanks for letting the forum know. You might get a call you never know. That's how hard ball is played.


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## zannej (Feb 15, 2016)

Sorry to hear that. I hope you find a good home soon though.

It can be very disappointing to really want a house and not be able to get it. But, there are other ones out there.


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