# Big companies vs smaller companies and contractors?



## jmr106 (Aug 3, 2016)

A while ago, I posted looking for advice regarding a heating/air system in a large dug out hole in the crawlspace that takes on water when it rains. The machine itself doesn't get wet and is elevated off from the floor by about a foot, but I'm sure the moisture isn't good for it. The flooding potential is bothersome in a situation with loss of power. Backups exist for that, but it is also a poor selling point for the house itself.

All types of options were explored. Within this month, this machine will be flipped horizontally and hung from the floor, finally. I'm not sure completely whether they are just going to replace the whole machine and start from scratch or what. If they decide to do that and are factoring that into the price, that would actually be better, anyway. It is probably rotting the machine internally anyway, and the system is 4 years old.

Quoted price (by the same place that installed it and has the current service contract) for flipping this unit is $2,400 to $2,600 per one of the workers speaking with their installation manager, showing photos that they had taken on their phone, etc.

I'll be getting a more direct quote on paper from them at some point soon and finding out if they're just going to start over from scratch and put a new one in.


*Questions*:

Is the quoted price likely for a new machine included? I'll be asking about that.

How can I determine if the floor joists above on this 66 year old house are strong enough individually to hold this? They seem be in decent shape for their age. I would imagine that they could still use a lot of attachments to distribute the weight so that each one doesn't put much weight on the board. There are no floor issues (buckling, etc.). Should I expect any after hanging it?

Will a powered blower system be required for the venting when it is turned horizontal? It seems to me that when it is flipped, there won't be any rise and the exhaust may be closer to the floor joists. I happened upon this photo that shows how it is currently venting. I assume that they would have put this into the quote, but will ask again.

Before I go with that particular company, I may have others come out and  give an estimate on the same thing. If I had another company that  quoted a lower price and they flipped the unit, would I lose/void my  yearly service contract with the original company that installed it?

Before wasting a lot of time having a bunch of companies give quotes, is there really going to be any difference between (licensed) contractors, small hvac companies and large ones?


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## nealtw (Aug 3, 2016)

Given that the original guys didn't flip this thing in the first place, I wouldn't worry too much about them.
You only need 1/4" per foot of rise on the horizontal pipe so just hanging the furnace a few inches below the floor should be fine.
Hanging this from the floor is like having a teenager standing on  the floor full time.


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## nealtw (Aug 3, 2016)

Don't know where you got with the water tank, but if you are leaving down there or lifting it a little. You could move it up between the furnace and the sump hole for better access. you need room to service the furnace but as it will be up it could be moved a little to the right in this picture.


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## jmr106 (Aug 3, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Given that the original guys didn't flip this thing in the first place, I wouldn't worry too much about them.
> You only need 1/4" per foot of rise on the horizontal pipe so just hanging the furnace a few inches below the floor should be fine.
> Hanging this from the floor is like having a teenager standing on  the floor full time.



When I had them come out a couple of months ago to get a quote on it, the guy seem frustrated. His first question: "If they knew there were water issues, why didn't they hang it from the floor? You've got room right over there..." and pointed to some boards that the former owners put up years ago to store wood on. They look flimsy as heck. I wouldn't dream of putting something like that system in a spot like that. I've circled where he said they should have put it:






Apart from the fact that there's who knows what all kinds of junk back there. Due to the enormous amount of problems that I've been trying to fix, I haven't exactly had time to clean that stuff up (little present from my father), work, do what I can to help out with this house and take care of my own stuff and bills. I do know that trying to put the system way back there (crawlspace entrance door is 6-8 feet behind me when that photo was taken) would be way more work than putting it above the hole that you can at least stand in now. I tell ya, I wonder where they get these people sometimes.


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## nealtw (Aug 3, 2016)

When I said move it I meant maybe 20 inches.


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## jmr106 (Aug 3, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Don't know where you got with the water tank, but if you are leaving down there or lifting it a little. You could move it up between the furnace and the sump hole for better access. you need room to service the furnace but as it will be up it could be moved a little to the right in this picture.



I'm planning to move it as close to the right back corner as possible. It does have room to move to the side quite a bit and I think further back up against the wall a bit, as well.






I'm going to stick with a gas water heater. I haven't moved the water heater yet. It still rests on the dirt where it was. It has been flooded at least once by probably a few inches (from a long time ago), but is still working just fine and I'm just leaving it there until I can get a new one in there elevated to the point where it will stay new. My major issue is the system. The water heater is easy and not as expensive. I've priced them at the store. Curiously, the 40 gallon water heaters are shorter than the 30-something gallons. :rofl:  I saw no logical reason or features for this, so obviously I'm likely getting the same 40 gallon tank. I remember that I could elevate it up to 2.5' depending on how many inches they are required to keep it away from the floor joists. So I'll deal with that one when I get to it. I know for sure that I can raise it up at least over 2 feet minimum. 

However, I should also note that it has been a long time since it rained enough for a large amount of water to enter down there. This is a very intermittent issue with the water. It could happen only one time per year. It could happen 2-3 times or more. It depends on the weather and how many of those 2-4 day rain systems we have. Due to the pumps that I have down there (both of which can kick out up to 100 gallons per minute if need be, and the flow will never be that high), I know that it won't flood. The last time I saw a large water flow, they kept it in check and it didn't even get out of the sump hole. The only concern is power going out.  It really depends on the weather. When the previous system flooded, it was when a tropical storm passed over Atlanta. Being in a state where a lot of hurricanes and tropical storms skim the coast and/or hit Alabama, Louisiana or Florida and tend to skim up over Georgia, some years are worse. The big flood of the old system and current water heater happened before I had a chance to install a second pump. I just don't want to have to guess about it anymore and want to fix it and be done with it. 

Once the system is flipped and water heater elevated, I could take my time to put in the planned gravel and such. Still pondering over whether I would need to dimple board the walls before adding in gravel and a proper sump basin further up in the hole just in case. Probably so.


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## jmr106 (Aug 3, 2016)

I'm kind of pondering which way they would deem best to flip it. From what I can tell, the $2,400-$2,600 price tag from the company that installed it may be for a complete tear-out and replacement of the current system. So I'm trying to figure out whether I should move the water heater first to give them more room or ask them to move the system a little further down closer to the pumps, maybe 2-3 feet down and have it run lengthwise. Or, they may deem that it is best to run it horizontally across the hole, from side to side. Either way is fine with me, but I'll have to just see what they say.


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## nealtw (Aug 3, 2016)

I was just looking at how accessible the water tank will be when the furnace is placed in the flat position.
I like you plan of action, seems reasonable. I would still move the furnace a little so when you do replace the tank it could sit right in front of where the furnace is now. that is if the vent pipe for it can be made to work.
With the gravel placed to move water, dimple board would not be needed below the level of the gravel.
I wouldn't bother with any of that unless you were going to cover all the dirt with poly, which really should be done, but that would be way down your to do list.
You may even want to knock a few more holes thru the block to allow water into the gravel.


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## jmr106 (Aug 3, 2016)

nealtw said:


> You may even want to knock a few more holes thru the block to allow water into the gravel.



My plan is 1" diameter holes all around the base of the wall about every 3-4 feet or so, and also about a foot up from the base of the wall all the way around. I'll put the gravel in (and set the new elevated sump basin as I go and fill in around it with the gravel) immediately after the holes are drilled. Also, those existing cinderblock holes will be filled to the top with gravel to act as a filter so that the dirt behind the wall can't wash down into the drilled holes and block them. I think the water builds up in the wall simply because it can't get out fast enough. Having enough holes that the water can flow through immediately without building up in the wall should help. 

That's a lot of water after 2 days of moderate to heavy rain on and off. I'm just going to assume that it comes from the surrounding yard(s) and leave it at that. After all, this hole is about 3.5 feet below outside ground level. It could be that simple, could be holes in the foundations somewhere, an old drain not working properly, etc. Who knows. 

This should solve the problem. End of August is my plan for flipping the machine. I'm going to get some quotes from other companies. The one that put it in isn't competent enough and I don't want to use them.


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## jmr106 (Aug 3, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I was just looking at how accessible the water tank  will be when the furnace is placed in the flat position.
> I like you plan of action, seems reasonable. I would still move the  furnace a little so when you do replace the tank it could sit right in  front of where the furnace is now.



I'll be asking where they can put the system ahead of time and will make it a point to be there for the entire install watching everything. Personally, I'm hoping that they can move the system back towards the pumps 2-3 feet and off to the left a little on the edge of the wall. The reason being because where the system is now, these water pipes virtually sit right over the back side of it. Kind of scary. Those are the hookups for the in/out supply leading to the water heater. The plumbers that hooked up the current water heater changed the pipes to copper up until that point to bring the hookups up to code, put in proper cutoff valves, etc. They may be fine for years, but if I pay all of that money to flip the system, I really don't want it under any water pipes. There are no water pipes over in the area between the system and the pumps, so I was hoping that they could move the system back towards the pumps a few feet and maybe off to the left a little over the left edge of the wall. 









Of course, I don't know that much about the HVAC process. Is there a specific direction that the unit can be flipped? Assuming that other companies have a similar price for a complete tear-out, could the new similar unit be flipped length-wise (parallel to the wall on the left side of the wall as opposed to width-wise across the hole)? Or are they only able to flip sideways opposite of the wall direction? I'd imagine that they'll probably have to change out some of the air ducts anyway. They'd still have to alter the ventilation duct.


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## nealtw (Aug 4, 2016)

I was imagining a more straight forward move. The plenum goes up and turns to the left, I am thinking. Then you could just remove the bend flip the furnace and attach it to the horizontal duct and that is where I thought you could just add A / 20" . I don't remember now whether that one could be flipped both ways. It wouldn't take much to move the water pipe either.
At least now you have a few ideas of what you want and can talk to installers about the pros and cons and hopefully settle on something that works.


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## jmr106 (Aug 4, 2016)

I'll just have to see what they say. Thanks for the tips.

The water pipe wouldn't be that big of an issue to handle, except for I've now found THIS (http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?p=155084#post155084) water pipe issue (had to post in the Plumbing on that one) that has an issue on top of the issue of an issue. I've got my work cut out for me on that one. That's going to push my DIY abilities to the max for sure.Unfortunately, because of the way that the company that installed this thing wrapped the pipes with the ducts, those ducts are going to need to be replaced anyway. That's just dumb.


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## jmr106 (Aug 17, 2016)

So here's an odd question:

What's that white stuff that they lined the pieces of the air handler and such with to seal air gaps? It looks like it went on wet and dried hard. What's that stuff called? Can I buy it? 

I'll have to change those ducts myself when pipes are fixed. I haven't looked to see if that stuff is holding the ducts on or if they have some kind of zip tie-like clamp holding them onto the air handler. I'll be investigating more tomorrow. I don't know much about that stuff, but I remember a long time ago that I ran a duct and changed it out on the machine. I don't remember the method that was used to connect it to the machine, however. What do they commonly use now? They wrapped the ducts around them, so when I get those fixed, I'll change the ducts that they leaked on.

This is a pretty small house. 2 bedroom, 1 bath. 875 sq ft total. 6 rooms total. 6 air ducts plus the one intake in the hallway, right above the machine. I'm pretty sure that they'll likely just change the system rather than alter it, when I get a company to "flip" it. The $2,400 to $2,600 has to be for a new unit, I'd imagine. Can a "smaller" system be installed? I know that this has a lot of details to it...I'll try to get some specs on that system tomorrow when I find the paperwork. Just wondering if something a little more compact could be used down there when they install it horizontally. I'll be asking all of that stuff when I get estimates from several companies. Just thought I'd ask here, too.


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## nealtw (Aug 17, 2016)

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZv8nOIsNAs[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLVAsSJFZac[/ame]


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## jmr106 (Aug 19, 2016)

I found the paperwork for the system from 4 years ago.

Ruud 13AJM24AO1 2.0 ton 13 seer a/c. 
HX7J24D17505 Ruud upflow evap coil 13 seer 
RGP507EAMER 75K 3 ton drive upflow gas furnace.

For a house that is 875 sq ft, is this physically the smallest system available for a crawlspace that would function and heat/cool properly? The way they have it in the crawlspace is freaking huge. I'm simply waiting to get the sewer/toilet pipe finished before I start getting estimates from other companies.

The a/c wasn't cooling as well a couple of weeks ago. Since there is a service contract with said big company that installed it, they came out to check it. He found nothing wrong. It was running constantly and not even dropping low enough to ever turn off. HVAC guy looks at me and says, "Do you want me to add another pound of Puron to it?"  I asked for it, because I think he didn't know how to read the number chart for specific outside temps and apparently the HVAC guy is supposed to make the decision and (based on what I have read after researching it) alter those numbers for each scenario. He added a pound of Puron to it, it immediately started blowing much colder air and started turning off on its own (as it had before). He didn't seem to think it would do anything. When he was filling out paperwork, I checked and the temp inside was dropping. His response was in shock, stating, "Awww s---, we might have done something!"  I swear, these people are cowboys at this company. How the heck do you ask your customer whether you should do something for the system you put in?? 

I don't think I'm going to try to alter anything on the system myself. Just going to get some estimates from other companies and see who seems the most competent, check their reviews, etc. If I can get a reasonable price on flipping it as-is and just moving everything around or even a replacement, for the sake of getting it out of the hole once and for all - I may just do that.


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