# Voltage reduction?



## Raindem (Apr 20, 2015)

I've noticed an inssue in my workshop over the last week.  It is a seperate building from the main house and has it's own sub-panel.

My heavier draw 110v tools (i.e. table saw, bench sander, shop vac, etc) are running a lot slow than normal.  The table saw barely gets up to speed.  The shop vac audibly slows down when the bench sander is started.  GFI's trip for no reason.  Nothing new has been added to the shop.  FYI, the 220v circuit seems fine (my 220v compressor starts and runs OK).

Is this within the DiYer to troubleshoot or is it time to call an electrician?  I have a good voltmeter but I'm not sure where to start.  

Thanks

Curt


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## oldognewtrick (Apr 21, 2015)

Have you checked the voltage at the outlets with and without tools running?


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## bud16415 (Apr 21, 2015)

Seeing as how nothing changed to cause the problem and it came on fairly suddenly my guess would be you have a loose connection or ground problem. Your 220V stuff is working ok makes me think it could be on the common leg. 
When you stick your meter in an outlet what does it read? What does it read when you start the sander? Try that on a circuit on each 110V leg. 

That might give you some clues. Some pros should be along to offer advice soon also.


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## Raindem (Apr 21, 2015)

Aaargh.  My expensive 5 year old Snap On (made-in-Korea) multi-meter broke so I'll have to use my cheap 35 year old Radio Shack (made-in-USA) multimeter, which still works and should do the trick.

Most the 110V sockets in the shop have 115V-120V going to them.  For some reason one socket in the far corner has 135v.  With all the sockets, if I leave the meter connected I will notice a fluctuation every few seconds, with the meter dropping 10V and then bouncing back up.

When the table saw is turned on the meter drops to 50v (at that socket) as the table saw struggles to come up to speed.  When it finally gets going the meter will go back up to 115v.

When the shop vac is turned on it drops to 95v for as long as it is running.

I hooked up the portable belt sander to the same socket as the shop vac.  It dropped the voltage to 105v steady, while it was running.  For sake of comparison I took the belt sander over to the main house.  The socket I tested had 125v going to it, and dropped to 120v while the sander was running.

The bench sander is the tool connected to the socket with 135v.  When it is turned on it will drop to 125v.

Now here's the wierd thing.  If I put the meter in a differnt socket (like the one the shop vac was connected to) and turn the bench sander on (which is connected to the farthest socket) the voltage on the metered socket will jump up around 10v, while the voltage at the socket that is running the tool drops by 10v.

So what does this indicate?  What do I test next?

Thanks

Curt


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## Blue Jay (Apr 21, 2015)

Raindem said:


> Aaargh.  My expensive 5 year old Snap On (made-in-Korea) multi-meter broke so I'll have to use my cheap 35 year old Radio Shack (made-in-USA) multimeter, which still works and should do the trick.
> 
> Most the 110V sockets in the shop have 115V-120V going to them.  For some reason one socket in the far corner has 135v.  With all the sockets, if I leave the meter connected I will notice a fluctuation every few seconds, with the meter dropping 10V and then bouncing back up.
> 
> ...



My experence says open neutral.


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## nealtw (Apr 21, 2015)

Do you have copper wire. 
I agree you are going after white wire connections all the way back to the house. the 220 dosn't use the white.


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## kok328 (Apr 21, 2015)

If your checking voltage from hot to neutral, check it again from hot to ground and see if you still have voltage fluctuation problems.  If not, then you most likely have a loose neutral.  If you do, then you may have a loose hot.


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## Raindem (Apr 22, 2015)

Yes, I have copper wire.  Checking my voltage from hot to ground produces the same results as hot to neutral - 10v fluctuations in the voltage.

I'm guessing I need to move to the fuse panel now.  Should I check the shop sub-panel first or the main panel at the house.  What should I be looking for?


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## nealtw (Apr 22, 2015)

If neutral and ground are acting the same , is that a problem with the ground rod?


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## Raindem (Apr 22, 2015)

How would I determine that?


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## nealtw (Apr 22, 2015)

That was a question for those that know more than me. Does your shop have it's own ground rod?


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## JoeD (Apr 22, 2015)

Sounds like an open or loose neutral. Grounding rod has nothing to do with it.


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## nealtw (Apr 22, 2015)

JoeD said:


> Sounds like an open or loose neutral. Grounding rod has nothing to do with it.



Correct me but if he measures power to ground he should not get the same reading as with a bad neutral.


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## JoeD (Apr 23, 2015)

The ground rod has nothing to do with voltage fluctuations. It also has nothing to do with voltage readings to the ground wire. The ground and neutral wires are tied together in the main panel. You could remove the rod connection and it not affect the function of the system one bit. It is there mainly for lightning protection.


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## Raindem (Apr 23, 2015)

Here's a shot of the sub-panel at the shop.







And here's a couple shots of the main panel.  The 200 amp breaker on the right appears to be what's going to the shop.










So, what do I look for here?  Apparently everyone says it's a loose connection but where should I focus on?  I desire to poke around in there as little as possible, lol. 

Thanks

Curt


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## nealtw (Apr 23, 2015)

Your checking all the screws holding the white wires on the right in the shop, the connection of the cable at the top of that and then the other end of that cable in the main


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## JoeD (Apr 23, 2015)

It could also be underground damage that you can't see.


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## Raindem (Apr 24, 2015)

So I put an allen wrench on all the connections in the sub-panel.  None were loose.  I put a wrench on the connections for the two thick black wires in the main panel.  Neither of those were loose.  I turn the power back on and it seems to be working a little better.  The table saw comes up to speed withinin 15 seconds (still a little slow but better than it was) and I don't see fluctations in the volt meter.  

I won't complain, but I don't understand it.  Thanks for everyone's help.


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## JoeD (Apr 24, 2015)

If you only did two wires you missed the one I think is your problem. You need to do the neutral as well.


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## nealtw (Apr 24, 2015)

Did you check the cable with the yellow stripe. That is the one bringing neutal back from the shop, I think.


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## Raindem (Apr 24, 2015)

In the sub-panel I checked all the wires (all the white wires to the bus bar, the 2 black cables, the black cable with the yellow stripe, even the black wires going to the breakers).  None of them appeared loose.

In the main panel I just checked the 2 black cables.  Is there another one in the main panel I need to check?


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## nealtw (Apr 24, 2015)

The cable with the stripe should find it's way back to the main. We don't see it in the photo but it should be there.


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## Raindem (Apr 24, 2015)

OK, I'll check that out tomorrow.  Thanks.


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## Blue Jay (Apr 25, 2015)

What readings are you getting at the input in the sub box? If it is good there check at the breaker supplying the outlets that have trouble. These test will tell you what direction you need to keep working at.


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## Raindem (Apr 25, 2015)

I checked the black with yellow stripe cable at the main panel.  I was able to give it just about 1/16th of a turn, but it didn't seem loose or anything.  I don't know how hard you're supposed to torque down on those things.  I did notice that there appears to be a splice.  See the pics below.  There is a section wrapped in tape and the cable sheathing above the tape looks more faded than that below the tape.












Blue Jay, the outlets in the shop all have 115v-120v going to them.  The table saw works a little better since I've been fiddling with everything but something still doesn't seem right.


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## bud16415 (Apr 26, 2015)

I would want to see what&#8217;s going on under that tape.


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## nealtw (Apr 26, 2015)

Ya, that splice is worth looking at.


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## Raindem (Apr 27, 2015)

I would have no idea what I'm looking for.  It might be time to call an electrician.


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## bud16415 (Apr 27, 2015)

I wouldn&#8217;t know what to look for also but it&#8217;s pretty clear someone stuck a short piece of wire onto that common. If there is a chance you have a bad connection someplace the place to look is the place that&#8217;s done in an unorthodox way.

Kill the power and take the connection loose and unwrap the tape. You can always tape it back up if it seems ok.


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## nealtw (Apr 27, 2015)

I would think if that is a join it should have a healthy clamp on it. And we would be able to see it even when taped.


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## Raindem (Apr 27, 2015)

Haven't had time to look at it today.  But tomorrow I'll cut the power and take a closer look.  I'm hoping I can remove the tape without disconnecting the cable.


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## nealtw (Apr 27, 2015)

Well maybe but you will desconnect it to tape it back up.


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## Raindem (Apr 30, 2015)

Well, here's what we got.  There is indeed a splice under that tape.  It "feels" tight.  The resistance across it is negligible, about 2-4 ohms among the various strands of the cable.  But it has to be the problem.  I have a portable 110v compressor that won't start.  But if I wheel it over to the house it starts up fine.

What's the next step?


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## bud16415 (Apr 30, 2015)

I think 2-4 ohms would be real high across the splice, but it could be your meter not being able to get such a low reading. Not sure what size wire that is but say a #4 would be something like( .25 ohms ) over 1000 feet.  And you are measuring an inch. 

I don&#8217;t know if it is the splice but I don&#8217;t really care for it. That common bar at the top is the only one in the box with the large holes? 

I doubt you have a crimper for that big wire. Some of the pros will be around and advise.


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## nealtw (Apr 30, 2015)

I wonder if you can add another lug lower and do away with the splace. This is a question not an answer.


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## JoeD (Apr 30, 2015)

Splice looks fine. Tape it back up.


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## Raindem (May 1, 2015)

Taped it back up and put everything back.  Went back to the shop and still the same issue (was naively hoping that messing around with it would fix the problem).

Whatever the fix is at this point I don't trust myself to do it.  Called an electrician who should be by later today.  I'm really afraid that he's going to tell me the only way to fix it is to run new cable, which sounds like big $$


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## nealtw (May 1, 2015)

Good luck hopefully he finds something simple.


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## bud16415 (May 1, 2015)

Did you ever mention how the power is run out there? Is it underground thru conduit? 
How long is the run?

Good luck and keep us posted on what you find.


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## Raindem (May 1, 2015)

It's about a 200' run underground.  I don't know if it is through conduit.  Whatever the code requires I guess.


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## Raindem (May 1, 2015)

The electrician just left.  He doesn't think it is the splice.  He thinks there's a problem between the main panel and the sub at the workshop, underground, and recommends replacing the entire cable with copper.  The current cables are aluminum.  And we still don't know if it is direct buried or through a conduit.  I'll have to talk to the contractor.

My concern is that there could still be a problem with the splice.  He didn't test it or put a meter on it.  He just disconnected it and pulled on the wire and pronounced it good.  I may have to spend another $100 and get a second opinion.  Ugh, this is my worst nightmare.


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## JoeD (May 1, 2015)

The splice is not likely the problem. It is was it would be loose. It would also probably look burnt or overheated.


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## Blue Jay (May 1, 2015)

So with this info turn off the breakers at both ends then at one end using jumper cords tie all 3 wires together then with an ohm meter read from the far end. Should get very close to the same reading between any 2 conductors.


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## Kabris (May 2, 2015)

I agree with Joe, the splice looked proper and in good working condition as long as the wires and crimps were sized accordingly.


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## bud16415 (May 2, 2015)

Before I replaced all that wire I would start with cutting the power and then remove all the connections and clean the ends really good to get off any oxidation and also clean the holes in the termination. Then put it all back together with a good anti oxidation compound and torque the connections and see what you have. 

To me it seems unlikely the wires would fail without some outside occurrence. 

You could tie them together and also test them separate as suggested above. The insulation on each conductor should be rated at 600V so conductor to conductor should be over 1000V .

I would rule out oxidation first.


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## Raindem (May 2, 2015)

I don't quite understand the suggestion about tying them together and testing them seperately.


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## Blue Jay (May 2, 2015)

Raindem said:


> I don't quite understand the suggestion about tying them together and testing them seperately.



All readings should be within .2 ohm if one is higher it would show a bad connection like say that splice on the neutral.


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## Raindem (May 2, 2015)

I meant that I'm not sure how to conduct the test.  Do you mean tie the 2 black cables and the white cable together at the main panel.  Then go to the sub panel and check resistance through each pair?  Black to black, black to white, etc?

I already tested resistance across the splice itself and got 2-4 ohms.  However, my meter is a very old analog unit and probably not too accurate.  I'm surprised the electrician didn't do this test but he seemed totally uninterested in that splice.


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## slownsteady (May 3, 2015)

the object is to make a loop of two of the three wires and test it. Then make another loop using the third wire and test that. Then repeat again so that all wire combos have been tested with each other.


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## Raindem (May 3, 2015)

Ah, I see.  The resistance between the black to black loop should be within .2 ohm of the restistance between the white to either black loop.  If it is not, then the splice could be the problem.  If it is, then it still points to a problem underground?


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## Kabris (May 3, 2015)

Your electrician should have at least conducted those tests for you before he recommended replacing the wire.  Copper is a lot more expensive than aluminum, but also much more conductive, so he's "guessing" it's either a damaged underground wire or a voltage drop issue. The anomaly you're seeing at your workshop, seems to me, needed more testing from an electrician before the conclusion of replacement was addressed.  I know you don't want to spend more money than needed, but the fact that he recommended replacing it with copper wire before doing any testing raises a red flag to me that he's looking for a nice payday. I would get a second opinion.


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## Raindem (May 3, 2015)

Kabris said:


> Your electrician should have at least conducted those tests for you before he recommended replacing the wire.  Copper is a lot more expensive than aluminum, but also much more conductive, so he's "guessing" it's either a damaged underground wire or a voltage drop issue. The anomaly you're seeing at your workshop, seems to me, needed more testing from an electrician before the conclusion of replacement was addressed.  I know you don't want to spend more money than needed, but the fact that he recommended replacing it with copper wire before doing any testing raises a red flag to me that he's looking for a nice payday. I would get a second opinion.



My thoughts exactly.


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## buffalo (May 3, 2015)

Currently doing an underground 200 amp service into my house. My building inspector said he has never seen it done in copper because of price. The price for the URD cable , 200 amp , aluminum,  is under 2$ a foot. 

If you went copper I believe the wire is much smaller and easier to bend/work with , which may be the reason the contractor is pushing it? I would do aluminum.


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## Raindem (May 3, 2015)

Will copper last longer?  This house is only 7 years old.  I don't want to have to be doing this again in 7 years.


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## Kabris (May 4, 2015)

Not significantly longer, you should never have to replace a wire every 7 years.  Copper is just more conductive, can handle a larger load at the same gauge and its runs can be a bit longer when voltage drop is an issue.  The only major flaw is that exposed aluminum can oxidize badly over time, so electricians use an anti oxidation compound when terminating.  The major difference in price is what makes aluminum the preferred choice in residential feeder wires.


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## bud16415 (May 4, 2015)

Copper can carry more current in a given conductor size but aluminum can carry more current per weight per foot. That makes it the wire of choice for many overhead runs. You simply have to use a larger conductor size is all and be back to the same capacity current wise. The disadvantage to copper is price and the disadvantage to aluminum is the oxidation problem. 

Oxidation only happens where the aluminum is exposed to air and with the addition of things like salt can speed the process. If your wires are unbroken and underground oxidation shouldn&#8217;t be a problem inside the wires as the current travels inside the conductor not on the surface. Oxidation is a problem only at points of connection like under a cable screw connector or in a splice. They shouldn&#8217;t have put any splices anyplace that&#8217;s underground or not accessible. Again the oxidation happens on the surface and where two surfaces are being forced together if there has been oxidation formed in the joint the oxidation is an insulator not a conductor. The job of the pastes is to stop that oxidation process. The oxidation being more insulator than conductor causes a point of high resistance and a voltage drop. The current being forced past the problem spot will make heat and that will sometimes improve the conductance thus bringing the voltage up and improving how things run after the slow start. 

The idea of testing the resistance of the wires out of the circuit would look for a wire that has something like your splice and how that effects the resistance when tested in different pairs as explained above. The other test you could do yourself is testing wire to wire with them disconnected and not attached at one end. If you measure resistance it should be zero meaning the wires are not shorted any place. The better test is to put power and a load across the wires. Something like a lightbulb could be used. Disconnect both ends and wrap one end in some tape for safety and then put say 120V with a load (lightbulb) in series. The bulb will limit the current if 100W to something like 1 amp but would subject the wires to 120V potential. If two wires had been somehow damaged and touching each other the voltage will jump the gap underground and cause the bulb to light or glow dim. They have test rigs with transformers to get closer to the insulation ratings of the wire but the simple lightbulb test would show a damaged wire most likely. 
Your description doesn&#8217;t sound like that kind of a problem though if you had something like that underground the fault would have heated up and got worse and popped the breakers. What it sounds like to me is an oxidation problem in one of 8 places. The 6 wire connection points and 2 at each end of the splice. Start with the easy ones the wire points first. Take the wires out and shine them up good with scotch bright pad even dip them in something acidic like white vinegar and let them soak. Stronger acidic might work quicker but test it out on something first. After everything is clean recoat with grease for aluminum wire and test with your meter and by running your machines. If that doesn&#8217;t do the trick then look at the splice. Then and only then would I be thinking about replacing the wires.


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## Raindem (May 4, 2015)

Thanks for the detailed info.  I can certainly try to clean up the wire ends.  The splice is crimped so there's nothing I can do except replace it with another one.

So back to this copper vs aluminum question.  With aluminum, they're going to use the required guage to give me the needed capacity at the other end.  With copper, they'll use smaller wire to give me the same capacity, and charge me a bunch more.  Copper doesn't last any longer.  So as a consumer I don't see any real benefit to paying the higher price for copper.


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## nealtw (May 4, 2015)

Every new house here has underground conduit, I have never seen them use copper.


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## Raindem (May 8, 2015)

Update...

I contacted the builder who sent out the electrician that did the original wiring on the house.  He tested resistance as mentioned here, by disconnecting all the wires and testing the loop in pairs.  It turns out there is an open circuit, a complete break, in the common wire.  There was no continuity.  The good news is that he is "pretty sure" that the wires are through conduit.  

He then took away my 220v circuit and (temporarily) used one of the black wires in place of the common.  That fixed the 110v circuit completely and just confirmed what we already knew.  So now I'm waiting for an estimate to pull all the cables, replace the common (and inspect the others since they're out) and hook everything back up.  He agreed to cut me a break on the cost since they did the original installation.  He also said instead of pulling out the old cables they can just run a new common cable 18" deep, which would save me a few bucks.  I don't know if I like that idea.


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## kok328 (May 8, 2015)

If it's in conduit you can use the neutral as a pull wire assuming the insulation will not break.


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## JoeD (May 8, 2015)

The neutral has to be in the same conduit or cable as the hot wires.
If he replaces to the wires save the old ones. They have value at the scrap dealer.


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## Raindem (May 8, 2015)

kok328 said:


> If it's in conduit you can use the neutral as a pull wire assuming the insulation will not break.



He said the 3 cables are intertwined and have to be pulled out together.  Besides, if there was enough damage to sever the common I'd want to be sure the hot cables are not also damaged.


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## Raindem (May 8, 2015)

JoeD said:


> The neutral has to be in the same conduit or cable as the hot wires.
> If he replaces to the wires save the old ones. They have value at the scrap dealer.



I don't know if it's code here but it certainly makes sense.


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## buffalo (May 8, 2015)

How did the damage occur if it's in a conduit is what I'm thinking?  Is the conduit damaged?


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## nealtw (May 8, 2015)

If all three were pulled together, why was one two short. Something mickey mouse, the one cable was likely damaged by the installer, I would pull them all and inspect them if the other two have no damage pull them back in.


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## Raindem (May 8, 2015)

That's a good question.  How does a complete break occur inside a conduit?

I agree Neal.  I think something happened upon installation to damage or shorten the life of this wire.  The splice bought us a few years maybe, but premature failure was always in the cards.


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## nealtw (May 8, 2015)

It won't be a complete break but who knows what you will find, like more splices


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## Raindem (May 8, 2015)

It has to be a complete break, doesn't it?  The resistance through the white wire was infinite, indicating an open circuit.


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## nealtw (May 9, 2015)

Your 120 volt can't work with out neutral, something is hooked up somewhere.


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## Raindem (May 9, 2015)

Are not the common wires and ground wires connected at some point?


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## nealtw (May 9, 2015)

Joe said that would be at the main, have you looked for a connection elsewhere.


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## Raindem (May 9, 2015)

Yes.  Apparently, the sub-panel at the workshop has it's own ground.  The electrician said that is why I'm still getting some voltage.


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## nealtw (May 9, 2015)

So if Joe is correct and it should not be tied to the ground at the shop, perhaps you never had a neutral.


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## Raindem (May 9, 2015)

Sorry, maybe I'm calling things by the wrong name.  The sub-panel is at the workshop.  The only cables going from there to the main panel at the house are the 2 black and 1 white.  The main panel and the sub-panel each have their own grounding stake driven into the ground.  (The 1st electrician didn't even check the grounding stake)


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## nealtw (May 9, 2015)

So in the shop all the bear wires go to ground and all the white wire go to neutral. Unless the two are connected at the shop somewhere then then the neutral cable is still working somewhat.


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## Raindem (May 9, 2015)

nealtw said:


> So in the shop all the bear wires go to ground and all the white wire go to neutral. Unless the two are connected at the shop somewhere then then the neutral cable is still working somewhat.



That is correct.  But "somewhat" is the operative word here.  The lights and coffee maker work.  But anything with a heavy draw won't get enough juice.


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## JoeD (May 9, 2015)

nealtw said:


> Your 120 volt can't work with out neutral, something is hooked up somewhere.



It can work but not properly by feeding through the other hot. The loads are in series and if they are balanced you won't see a problem. If the loads are unbalanced one will see high voltage and the other will see low voltage.


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## Kabris (May 10, 2015)

I'm a little rusty on my code on this, but because the workshop is a separate building, and only 240 with a neutral are feeding it, then shouldn't the sub panel's neutral and grounding blocks be bonded (and a ground rod driven)?  I thought the detached building scenario was the exception for sub panels to be bonded.  Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## JoeD (May 10, 2015)

Kabris said:


> I'm a little rusty on my code on this, but because the workshop is a separate building, and only 240 with a neutral are feeding it, then shouldn't the sub panel's neutral and grounding blocks be bonded (and a ground rod driven)?  I thought the detached building scenario was the exception for sub panels to be bonded.  Correct me if I'm wrong.


That was the old rule. If it was existing before the rule change then it is good. Current code requires 4 wire feed.


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## Raindem (May 12, 2015)

Upon further consultation with the builder and electrician we now believe that the lines are direct buried.  That would at least make it easier to explain the damage.  So now I'm going to get estimates for the repair.  I'm considering 2 approaches:

1. Leave the old cables alone.  Dig a new trench and install a new neutral wire in conduit.
2. Dig up all the cables.  Install original black wires (if reusable) and new neutral wire through conduit. 

The length is going to be around 150' ft.  Labor rate in this area is $75/hr.  For comparison sake, what do you think the 2 different options should cost?


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## slownsteady (May 12, 2015)

Don't pay the electrician's rate for the ditch digging. If you're confident on knowing where the old wires are, you can dig yourself or hire 'cheap' manual labor. i also wouldn't bother with the old wires. You only want to do this once, so install new wires.


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## JoeD (May 12, 2015)

1. Not code compliant. All the cables/wires must be in the same conduit or cable assembly.


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## Raindem (May 13, 2015)

The first electrician never did get back to me with an estimate.  The second electrician that was out here wouldn't even call me back, even after I left a couple messages.  What is it with these businesses?  I guess they don't really want the work.

So I called out yet another electrician.  This one brought a meter and traced where the electrical line ran under ground.  They think they even know where the break is, based on the reading.  He offered to try and dig it up to just repair the break, but recommended running all new cable through conduit.  He said he won't just run a new neutral wire because it ignores possible damage to the other wires (and maybe also because it's not compliant, as Joe ponited out).  Waiting on an estimate from him as well.


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## nealtw (May 13, 2015)

There isn't much here you couldn't do your self. If it is hard digging the contractor will just hire labourers, which you could do .
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=19055


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## JoeD (May 13, 2015)

Depending on the issue there are underground rated splice kits available that might fix the issue.


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## Raindem (May 15, 2015)

Since that last electrician located the break I did consider just repairing the break.  But who's to say there isn't damage to the other cables as well?  I have reason to believe the workmanship on the original installation job was sub-standard, and I need reliable electrical service going to my shop.

So I'm going to take estimates to replace all the cables.  We will run them through conduit. To comply with code the neutral will be the same gauge as the power wires, and the cable will include a copper ground wire (currently there is no ground wire running from the main panel to the sub).

Neal, I consider this job outside of my DiY skill level.  I wouldn't save anything on the materials or the backhoe anyway, just the labor.  I think on this job I'll just pony up the money and let the professionals ply their trade.


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