# Sliding door troubles



## gottodo1 (Jun 27, 2017)

Hey Guys,
    Back Again. 

I found this thread which looks like it could be similar to what I'm seeing. in the lower left corner but I'm confused about the top. http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=9348 

I bought this house about 6 years ago having someone hack in some new windows 3 years before I bought it and said I'll fix it later.

4 years ago we had a really bad winter and even with low humidity at -35F I had ice pushing my trim away from the sliding door inside the house. I had other windows so I cauked it and moved on ATM as I knew I would be working on that. Hasn't happened since

Then when I removed the floor by the door and some of the subflooring was bad (maybe up to 1ft from corner) but it was dry and I just cut it out and replaced it to then move on. I had assumed the damage was prior to the new sliding door being put in. 

NOW I began removing the metal around my sliding glass door outside and think maybe it's time to make sure there isn't STILL a problem. So I'm confused at the top. It's apparently sagged down quite a bit but when I put a bar to the bottom board the wood just splintered and has some fungus. I think that board would almost HAVE to be new, right? 

Then on the side where I saw the ice I looked down and you can see in the 2nd picture the wood is also very crumbly but dry, even though we just got A TON of rain over the last week. The outter board is in much better shape than the inner board.

I bought some PVC to replace the wood HOWEVER I'm now concerned there could be other issues or even still a real problem. What should I look at or do next to determine if it is still a problem, and to what extent?


----------



## nealtw (Jun 27, 2017)

You are excused for being confused here. That is a mess.

Nothing looks right here.the window flange should be nailed to the sheeting just behind the siding and the re should be no threshold at the bottom outside the door. 
The only time we see something like this is when you have brick for siding..
So you ave wood floor, how thick is the wall from inside to outside?
Is part of the window sticking into the house. Can you post a picture of another typical window there?


----------



## gottodo1 (Jun 27, 2017)

It's 6 inch Framing. All that wood had metal covering it I just ripped off. All of the rest of the windows are flush with the outside so there's wood paneling on the inside. I'll show a picture of the window I just put in from the inside to show the deep socket. Then I got adventurous and got the following photos DUM DUM DUM, he hired an awful company to put in new windows/door. they decided to take advantage of the previous owner (old man) someone slammed in a new door said oh crap look at that, covered up the problem and moved on. After I pulled out the rotted flooring/wood I got down to the insulation that I believe is in the wall below it. 

We had been looking at one of those new sliding doors with the fancy blinds in the glass but decided ours was only 8 years old and perfectly good. LOL my wife wants me to just put that high expansion foam in there, close it up, put on the PVC and move on... sounds tempting at this moment.


----------



## nealtw (Jun 27, 2017)

You have I think caught this just in time and doing up properly would be the thing to do.

I think, what the did was remove a double in swing door If they removed the frame , the hole would be 2" to wide and 1 1/2 inches to high. So they left the frame and mickey moused it in. 
They likely got one with out a flange or cut the flange off and you will likely see screws in the sides to hold it in.

All fixable it will take a little work and you will have to do a little bit of stuff that turns you off but it is worth it in the end.


----------



## gottodo1 (Jun 27, 2017)

Yup. Sure enough screws are the only thing holding it in, good old drywall screws. For tonight I'm done I suppose, time to go down to the pool and relax. You're sure experienced Neal. 

I actually enjoy the work, I'd just like it to be done sooner or later atleast with the fixing previous owners problems so I can make my own new ones, like that window I put in. 

I was also considering re-doing the deck as it's too small anyway so I'll do what's necessary. 

So first thing I'll probably have to get it out so I can survey how bad the problem really is, kind of like he did on here http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=9348


----------



## nealtw (Jun 27, 2017)

I sure am glad you didn't redo the deck last week, it is much easier to rip it off, it will make this job easier.
You should have enough plywood in case you don't get this back in one day.

You will want to remove it, take the slider out first so one person can carry the window. then remove all the old door frame and we can then work on a shopping list.


----------



## Sparky617 (Jun 28, 2017)

Your deck isn't helping.  It should be 6" below the threshold of your door.  As it is, water is splashing on the door and speeding the rot.


----------



## gottodo1 (Jun 28, 2017)

Sparky, I didn't know that, I've seen plenty of decks installed this way. The siding and the new boards do not appear to be rotted so I don't think that's the issue anymore, but may have certainly been originally. Would it be worth changing that when I replace the deck?


----------



## Sparky617 (Jun 28, 2017)

Given the age of your house, it probably was built to code at the time.  As we learn from past mistakes the codes get updated.  A lot of the new requirements on decks come from the fact that a lot of earlier decks collapsed hurting and killing people.  My first house built in 1984 had a deck with 4x4 posts set on cinderblocks with no cross bracing and 1x6 boards for flooring.  It was off the first floor with a walkout basement below.  I'm fairly certain it wasn't bolted together either.  It passed inspection at the time.   Now you'd have 6x6 posts, 5/8" through bolts, cross bracing, 5/4 or 2x decking and a bit more of a substantial footer.  In PA, where that house was built, it would be 48" deep.  Here in NC only about 12" deep.


----------



## nealtw (Jun 28, 2017)

Our code is solid surface decks are 6" below the level of the floor and when we can we try to drop all decks 6 inches.


----------



## gottodo1 (Sep 10, 2017)

So next week I will be removing the deck but before I did so one of my friend recommended finding out where the bad wood stopped by "poking it with a screw driver". I still haven't found where the bad wood stops in the outside wall but I did find where the "new" bad wood stops... not sure about the layer under it. The new layer of subflooring was added about 7 years ago


----------



## nealtw (Sep 10, 2017)

So have a couple sheets of plywood handy so you can cover the hole if you don't get this done in one day.


----------



## joecaption (Sep 11, 2017)

If this was my job the siding would be coming off, door removed.
I want to see if there's even a proper header over that door, anytime I see a two pieces of wood laying flat over a slider like that it makes me wonder.
No way would I want to see a door recessed in the wall like that unless there was a roof over it.
I also agree with the deck should have been lower!
I've made 10's of thousand's of dollars in the past from this one building 101 mistake.
I'm not seeing any proper flashing, Z moulding over the door, door was not set in a sill pan.
Use 1 X 4 PVC lumber for the trim so there's no more rot or painting.
I'd want a door with a nailing fin, mounted flush with the outside sheathing, not what you have.


----------



## gottodo1 (Sep 15, 2017)

Joecaption,
     I will be removing the door except the one we want to order is a 3 week lead time and I'm waiting until Saturday for that. (Wife likes fancy things). I'm just taking the deck and siding off to see how bad it is. 
     I have a "real" contractor coming out to look at it tomorrow to make sure that once the siding is off and everything I am right about the damage and have the right plan. If it's bigger than I want to do (say everything is crap timber

    Deck came off really quick as it was just bolted to the siding with some lag bolts, screws, nails and some weird nails that went between them and nailed into each... No ledger board or flashing, who needs that. The wood didn't feel as rotted as I thought it would SO maybe there's hope that the siding and under wood is good and just the corners of the door are where the problem is (that'd be awesome at this point).


----------



## gottodo1 (Sep 15, 2017)

Here's some more pictures, the entire board that runs from the corner of the house to a foot past the sliding door is entirely rotted out atleast 80% with a few small sections not entirely rotted out(hammer didn't push in).


----------



## nealtw (Sep 15, 2017)

Interesting house wrap. :hide:. Change that out with a foot or two at a time. If the floor joists land there you will want inspect the ends of those two.
Wonder why they left a void in the rim. Hole to the left.


----------



## mabloodhound (Sep 16, 2017)

That rim joist rot is because there was none or improper flashing.  Plus the splashback off the deck.  You should be able to slip in a new rim joist, even if you have to do it in sections.  Make sure you fill in that gap that Neal mentioned.

Looks like there was no sheathing used on the house, just 1/2" foam panels.  That's why the sliding door was never attached to the sheathing (there was none).  You need to add some sheathing (1/2" plywood) strips around the door framing to attach your new slider nailing fin to.

Dave Mason


----------



## gottodo1 (Sep 16, 2017)

Is there a choice that's the ledger and the rim joist is behind it?  Going to start pulling out rot today and see what I find.


----------



## mabloodhound (Sep 16, 2017)

No, that's a rim joist or band joist.  A ledger would be attached to the outside of the vertical framing.


----------



## gottodo1 (Sep 16, 2017)

mabloodhound... I kind of understand what a ledger "should be" but I am fairly certain that was a weird board they probably considered a ledger and just screwed the deck through the siding into that. as it stops and has a large rim joist behind it. 

I'm feeling better and better about this. The board behind is about 99% intact with minimal rot. The 2x6 supporting the king & Jack stud is a little rotted though which has me a bit concerned and I'm not exactly sure the best way to repair/replace that. 

The sill platet on the insulation is rotted out for a good 12 feet but seems simple enough to buy a new one and replace that section as I cut out all the rot. 

A couple questions:

For the 2x6 sill plate, should that be pressure treated or just regular, looks like just regular there now. 

What should I do for the king & Jack stud support? 

Should I spray anything in there to kill the mold/fungus that dry-rotted the wood or will fixing the water intrusion solve that as well?  

The vapor barrier is shot. What should I do about that as I don't understand why there were 4 vapor barriers there and why the wrapped up around above and behind things. Basically my understanding is vapor barrier should have went up concrete wall downstairs then come over the 2x6 on the foundation then went to the outside of the rim joist then up to the subfloor. At that point that black water barrier membrane should have been under the door and sealed all of that off. The basement is finished so if I can avoid opening that wall and tap off the vapor barrier where that comes up to the cement top that would be great...

For the bolt into the foundation, should I just cut that off flush with the foundation and move on to replace the 2x6 or should I put a notch in the 2x6 so I can still have the bolt in place?


----------



## mabloodhound (Sep 16, 2017)

gottodo1 said:


> A couple questions:
> 
> 1/ For the 2x6 sill plate, should that be pressure treated or just regular, looks like just regular there now.
> 
> ...



This is the way I would do it; others may have a different opinion.

1/ The plate can be regular SF.  You are high enough off the ground.

2/ After you get the new band/ledge installed I would try and cut that bad end off the plate (back to the next stud) that is under the king/jack and wedge a new piece in there.  The old one will have nails into it from the K/J so it will take some work.  After you get the wedge in place, try driving a screw at an angle through the studs into the wedge to hole it in place.  You can also toenail a screw through the J when you remove the old door.

3/ If you remove the old rot and properly flash it, that should solve the problem.

4/ Yeah, I'm not sure what they did, put you want the vapor barrier open along the bottom edge in case and water were to get behind it, it could drain out the bottom.  I use Ice & Water shield (sticky back stuff) around and under my doors & windows.  I would use that below your door here also.  Let it hang down over the concrete foundation a little to seal that space between the foundation and plate.  The way it had been done before by wrapping, it was trapping any moisture up against the wood, causing rot.  And yes, don't forget the sill flashing under the door.  I use sheet lead and form my own "pan" along the full length of the door with a small lip on the interior edge and then a bent over lap on the exterior and also up both J studs on each side...all from one piece.  You can also use the sticky Ice & Water shield.  You can buy the I&W in widths that will work for this application.

5/ I notch my 2x6 for the bolt when I do it.  Just easier than trying to cut it off.

And also as I said earlier, you need to add 1/2" plywood sheathing to the K/J studs around the door AND also below the door....before you do the flashing work.  If you're going to put the deck back, it needs to be attached directly to the ledger/sheathing without any siding sandwiched in between.  And the the deck rim joist can be flashed tight to the house so there is not water intrusion at that joint.


Dave Mason


----------



## gottodo1 (Sep 16, 2017)

mablood, 
      I've never really understood vapor barriers very well even after ready alot of websites as I just don't see how it benefits things very much when you realize it's really air flow that's the issue (100X more from my reading).

So since the vapor barrier to the basement is cut behind the sill plate and good rim joist, Ideally I would patch a new piece in and put it ontop of the sill plate and under the rim joist, then run it up the rim joist to the hole for the door. Then the flashing would come down over the door opening and the ledger board and protrude out and over the siding. Something like this except it doesn't show the vapor barier becuase it was directly using the RIM Joist and not a 2ndary mounting board.  Right? https://www.familyhandyman.com/decks/building-a-deck/attaching-a-new-deck-to-a-house-the-correct-method/view-all/ Where would I leave it "open" At? I've used the 4" version on doors but I figure the 12" version will be more practical for the deck install. https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/decking-deck-products/deck-fasteners-flashing-supports/12-x-25-deck-flashing-tape/p-1462879491609-c-5728.htm?tid=-493131570350807142&ipos=41


----------



## mabloodhound (Sep 17, 2017)

Vapor barriers do NOT belong on the exterior of a house.  The only exterior product to use is a breathable, water shedding product like TYVEK.  You do not want anything patched in on top of the sill plate.
In your link, you will note that they added the ledger (the rim joist is behind the plywood sheathing).  As I said above, you will need to add 1/2" plywood over your rim and then flashing over that.  I suggested using the ice & water over the plywood because it is self sealing from any nail/screw penetrations.  And yes, that product from Menards is perfect and meant exactly for what I am saying.

Dave Mason


----------



## nealtw (Sep 17, 2017)

I just read some of the high lights so excuse me if I repeat what others of said.

Do the stuff under the door and save the stuff under the jack stud until you have the window out Just put a coupe studs under the header so then you can work under the jack and king.
Just to the left of the kink stud there are 3 studs together, That might be a point load and it would be more than the window jacks.
Regular lumber is fine but you want something between concrete and wood, sheet plastic would be fine for that. If that looks hard, then you could go treated but treated is wet and thicker so that could be a problem too.

Where I am the sheeting never goes down over the rim joist so don't be surprised if the rim joist is out and matches the sheeting above.


----------



## gottodo1 (Oct 19, 2017)

Okay guys, so I have the new door coming tomorrow and I pulled out the old door tonight. Not too bad except for some bug stuff I found and will ask about in next paragraph. I don't even have to replace much of the floor most of it looks really good. I might pull out the jack stud, fix the support under it and put in a new jack stud on the one side but not even sure if I need to. 

SO I've had lady bugs the whole time I've lived here and box elder bugs. This year has been the worst (makes sense, the door was half removed for a month). So today when I removed the door entirely there were lady bugs EVERYWHERE. Between every section in the insulation, everywhere. Then when I removed the base I saw what look like eggs. The eggs were under caulk that was put in 7 years ago when I hired someone to re floor my house. The picture makes it look like alot but it was only a few inches 4-6 down the floor. At first I thought termite but I don't think they're frass since they're hollow??? Anyone an expert on household insects. I'm going to see if someone can come out tomorrow and look at it before I put the new door in just in case. Maybe buy some pesticide and soak the wood in it just in case. None of the wood damage appeared to be bug related so I'm not too worried but maybe I should be? My son was panicking about the bugs so the evidence is gone but... 

What do you guys think, worried about egg cases? Plan sound good replace bit of flooring that's missing, maybe replace jack stud and brace and then install new door?


----------



## nealtw (Oct 19, 2017)

I would change out as much of that rot as I could. Rot is a living mass so anything you are leaving that has as much as a stain I would paint with end cut treatment.


----------



## gottodo1 (Oct 19, 2017)

Neal, that's probably a good idea so I'l l just cut out all of the overhang of the rim joist and replace it.. not really that hard I guess. I've never heard of end cut treatment do you mean like a polyurethane? 

 Any thoughts about the bug thing?


----------



## nealtw (Oct 19, 2017)

It;s the copper treatment for treated wood. It is  just like green water.
https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.cut-n-seal-pro-guard-soft-green-946ml.1000110347.html

Then you want to do a proper install with the peel and stick.


----------



## gottodo1 (Oct 19, 2017)

... Maybe I'm just too tired, Peel and stick what? Flooring? The flooring is called Adura but pretty close but we really like it since it's so warm compared to the tile we had in Arizona and looks good with the real grout. Did you see something wrong with how it was installed?

I found it, https://www.menards.com/main/paint/...n-wood-preservative-1-gal/p-1444452898274.htm and I think I'll coat the crap out of that area not to have to worry about it again, not to mention the flashing this time .


----------



## slownsteady (Oct 19, 2017)

Peel & stick, like Grace Vycor. It's a self-adhering flashing.


----------



## nealtw (Oct 19, 2017)

That treatment has a good price. The blue stuff under the windows here is Henry's bluskin or simular
https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.blueskin-weather-barrier-6-inch.1000403475.html

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2VOrk1MuWY[/ame]


----------



## mabloodhound (Oct 20, 2017)

Yes, you do need to add flashing around that door sill.  It will keep the water out.


----------



## gottodo1 (Oct 21, 2017)

SO Yesterday I took it all fixed it all up really well. Today I set the door in and it was great just a little warping int he frame but I was going to straight that out no problem.... That was UNTIL my wife. First she noticed this was the "old" style of window blind control with 2 levers instead of the 1 we had been promised. I got her to accept that after some grumbling... THEN she tried them and the internal blinds on the fixed door don't work... I can't believe my luck. I'm going to call Minnkota Monday but I'm so ticked. I've done the 2 clicks it should work thing but it doesn't... THe sliding door works just fine. Thankfully I just set it in before I applied caulk behind it... If I didn't have bad luck I'd certainly have no luck with this dang house.


----------

