# Banister update (thanks for input!)



## zepper

Hey guys,

We're doing some remodeling, and I'd like to update our turned-wood banister and routed stair rail:









(Apologies to any members who may still consider this style fashionable, BTW.  :?)

I'm pretty handy, but I've never done this type of project, and can't find anything related on the Web. Do you mind giving me your input?

The area between the end posts is 9' 6". So I figured I'd replace the spindles with three 36" tempered glass panels, such as these. This leaves a 1.5" gap between each panel, and between each end panel and post, which is fine.

We don't want metal framing. Instead, I thought I'd just trim the routed sides off of existing top rail and stair rail, and make slightly smaller, straight end posts. Here's my plan:

*1.* Remove the stair rail.

*2.* Remove the banister top rail (secured with screws at either end, visible in photos) and spindles. (The spindles just sit in cutouts; I know this from disassembling the balustrade at the foot of the stairs.)

*3.* Remove the newel (front) post and rear half-post.

*4.* Remove and discard the bolt plugs in the base, so the base is flat.

*5.* Rip the shaped sides of the top and stair rails down to straight surfaces, and sand down the corners. 
*6.* Make a bottom guide for the glass panels, consisting of:

 Two oak rails the same length as the base​
 Four 1.5" oak inserts​





(Pardon my less-than-realistic 3D drawing.)

*7.* Glue and clamp the guides to the inserts:





*8.* When that's dry, glue and temporarily toenail-screw the guide to the center of the existing banister base (having pre-drilled the screw holes):






*9.* When that's dry, remove the screws and fill the holes (which probably won't be too visible behind the glass, but let's be thorough, shall we?).

*10.* Create corresponding panel slots in the bottom of the top rail by dadoing and adding inserts. (I'll actually use the rail upside-down, so the screws to the posts enter from the bottom rather than the topwhat were they thinking?)

*11.* Insert gaskets into the slots in the base and top rail. (The dealer I linked to above also carries gaskets for these panels.) 

*12.* Make a straight (natural) 3.5" square oak newel post (matching the width of the banister's base) and a 3.5 x 2" half-post (.5" drywall depth plus 1.5" exposed post); drill necessary holes in each.

*13.* Install everything.

(continued...)


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## zepper

Here's what I'm wondering:

 Rather than leaving gaps between the 1st and 3rd panels and their adjacent posts, should I dado the posts too and insert the panel ends into them? I think it'd look better for the panels to have a more "freestanding" look, but would extra stability from inserting them in the posts be worthwhile? (I realize I'd need to adjust the inserts accordingly.)

 Will two good-sized screws be adequate to attach the top rail to the posts, the way they are now? Or would a rail bolt kit like this be better?:






(An impressive productbut is a single bolt really sturdier than two well-installed screws?)

 Is a rail bolt adequate for the newel post too? Or do you recommend something fancier, like this BW Creative Wood Newel Fastener?:






Or, since I'll be replacing the floor too, should I cut a hole in the subfloor and anchor the (lengthened) post to the side of the joist? That'd be plenty stable, but I'd want to be sure I know how to solidly repair the subfloor.

Finally:

 Am I overlooking anything?

 Do you think it's unlucky to have 13 steps in my plan, above? Should add a 14th step just for the heck of it (e.g. "Step back and appreciate handiwork")?

Thanks for your help!  Z.


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## bud16415

I really can&#8217;t comment on the style you are going for modern vs colonial as I like both and it depends on the rest of the house and how it will be taken. Glass is going to take a lot more cleaning if you have a dog or kids. If you go modern then the posts and rail should be blocky to fit the look. As to your method of build it looks sound to me and as long as it is anchored in to take quite a bit of side force it should look great. I personally would like to see a stair rail still. Older people like me like a hand hold. 

I think 13 is an unlucky number if you even thought about it being one. Frequently used stairs I like a easy rise. Rise + Run should = 18&#8221; is the rule I use. Something like 7&#8221; and 11&#8221; makes an easy climb after a long day.


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## beachguy005

The one issue I have with tempered glass is, while you can hit it with a hammer head on and not break it, you can tap the edge and it shatters.  Not great if you have kids or pets and broken glass.  So covering all the edges is probably best.  You could also use laminated glass instead.  Given that you're getting it custom made...I'm assuming...but I'm not sure how much price difference there is.


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## zepper

[Deleted; figured these parts out]


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## zepper

bud16415 said:


> I really can&#8217;t comment on the style you are going for modern vs colonial as I like both and it depends on the rest of the house and how it will be taken...



I realize that, since the '50s, people have enjoyed adding Colonial-style doodads to their distinctly non-Colonial houses. (My parents's house was like that.) 

Our house is a kind of two-level place built in the late '90s, with an open kitchen/dining/living area. So it's actually anything _but_ Colonial, and the banister's the only spindled thing in the house. 

You see this kind of thing all the time with doors, light fixtures, you name it. People see something online, on a house, or in a store, and think, "Wow, I really like that [thing]&#8212;let's put one in our place!" So I think the owner/builders must've seen a spindled banister somewhere&#8212;or just not imagined it could be done another way&#8212;and decided that's what they wanted, without regard to the house's overall style.



bud16415 said:


> Glass is going to take a lot more cleaning if you have a dog or kids.



Good point. Fortunately, our cat's very well behaved, and I'm sure our son, who's at his third year at university, won't mind if we ask him to keep his hands and face off of the glass.  :?)



bud16415 said:


> If you go modern then the posts and rail should be blocky to fit the look.



By "blocky" I take it you mean they should have straight sides&#8212;I agree.



bud16415 said:


> As to your method of build it looks sound to me and as long as it is anchored in to take quite a bit of side force it should look great. I personally would like to see a stair rail still. Older people like me like a hand hold.



I'll be reinstalling the stair rail; sorry if that wasn't clear. It'll just have straight sides, so it'll be somewhat smaller.



bud16415 said:


> I think 13 is an unlucky number if you even thought about it being one.



Okay, I admit it: I'm not really superstitious. I was just fishing for a way to include an actual step in my plan where I could tell myself what a great job I did. LOL



bud16415 said:


> Frequently used stairs I like a easy rise. Rise + Run should = 18&#8221; is the rule I use. Something like 7&#8221; and 11&#8221; makes an easy climb after a long day.



If I'm following you: I won't be modifying the stairs themselves, just the banister and stair rail.



beachguy005 said:


> The one issue I have with tempered glass is, while you can hit it with a hammer head on and not break it, you can tap the edge and it shatters.  Not great if you have kids or pets and broken glass.  So covering all the edges is probably best...



I appreciate what you mean. However, the panels in the glass rails around our deck are attached only at the tops and bottoms, and we like that look, where the panels are a visible part the design. And I don't think I mentioned it, but this will be 6mm glass, not regular window thickness... So it should be okay.



beachguy005 said:


> You could also use laminated glass instead.  Given that you're getting it custom made...I'm assuming...but I'm not sure how much price difference there is.



We were pleased to find that tempered-glass panels made for deck railings (like the panel I linked to in my first post) were relatively inexpensive. I'm sure laminated glass would be stronger, but as no one will be whacking on our panels, tempered should be fine.


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## zepper

Another question:

Assuming I use a rail bolt on the newel post, it'll be important for the hole to be straight. (If I attach it to the joist, the post will just need to be leveleasier in that respect, but I'd have to cut the subfloor to access the joist, and I'm not sure about that.)

My drill press won't accommodate something as long as the post. My electric hand drill has a round vertical levelso if I'm careful to clamp the post vertically level, would that be an adequate way to drill the hole? (I don't think I'd trust myself trying to drill horizontally, even with the drill's horizontal level, as I couldn't be sure I was going straight side-to-side.)

Should have the post drilled at a shop then? Or is there another way "normal" people can do this?


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## nealtw

zepper said:


> Another question:
> 
> Assuming I use a rail bolt on the newel post, it'll be important for the hole to be straight. (If I attach it to the joist, the post will just need to be leveleasier in that respect, but I'd have to cut the subfloor to access the joist, and I'm not sure about that.)
> 
> My drill press won't accommodate something as long as the post. My electric hand drill has a round vertical levelso if I'm careful to clamp the post vertically level, would that be an adequate way to drill the hole? (I don't think I'd trust myself trying to drill horizontally, even with the drill's horizontal level, as I couldn't be sure I was going straight side-to-side.)
> 
> Should have the post drilled at a shop then? Or is there another way "normal" people can do this?



On the drill press can you drill part way thru and then raise the table to get more depth. Or if you can just start the hole finish with the hand drill the starter hole will help keep you straight. Or drill a 2x4 and clamp it over the timber and use that has a stater  hole.

The normal trick with a hand drill is two people looking at your dill and telling you that you are plump.


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## havasu

nealtw said:


> The normal trick with a hand drill is two people looking at your dill and telling you that you are plump.



This sorta happens whenever I drill, but they just call me fat. :rofl:


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## nealtw

havasu said:


> This sorta happens whenever I drill, but they just call me fat. :rofl:



oops............


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## zepper

havasu said:


> This sorta happens whenever I drill, but they just call me fat. :rofl:



LOL

("The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters." Re-LOL)


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## nealtw

zepper said:


> LOL
> 
> ("The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters." Re-LOL)



Just add some dots or dashes after your word and you get past the short message


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## zepper

But it was more fun doing it that way.


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## zepper

I've gone back and edited my first few posts to reflect the stuff I've realized since, on my own and with your help.


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## zepper

nealtw said:


> On the drill press can you drill part way thru and then raise the table to get more depth. Or if you can just start the hole finish with the hand drill the starter hole will help keep you straight. Or drill a 2x4 and clamp it over the timber and use that has a stater hole...



I meant I wouldn't be able to get the post into my press at all, as it's a benchtop type. But the method of drilling a starter in another piecethat's so brilliant it should've been obvious [slapping forehead]. Thanks, dude!


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## nealtw

zepper said:


> I meant I wouldn't be able to get the post into my press at all, as it's a benchtop type. But the method of drilling a starter in another piecethat's so brilliant it should've been obvious [slapping forehead]. Thanks, dude!



Depending on the table under the drill press that you are mounted to, clamp the wood to the bench and swing the head over it.


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## zepper

nealtw said:


> Depending on the table under the drill press that you are mounted to, clamp the wood to the bench and swing the head over it.



Wow, you can do that? It amazes me I've managed to put my pants on before I joined this forum. Thanks!


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## nealtw

zepper said:


> Wow, you can do that? It amazes me I've managed to put my pants on before I joined this forum. Thanks!



If you know someone with a radial arm saw, a 1/2 drill chuck with go on the back of the motor just for things like this.

Any jig you can find on the market, started with some one needing something to do a job.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOloI4XAjuA[/ame]


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## zepper

I've now learned that acrylic panels are available as an alternative to tempered glass. Anyone have any experience with them? I'm leaning toward that now, since:
 They're much lighter, so the banister would be more stable, and the panels would be easier to handle
 They don't need gasketing
 They aren't nearly as fragile (though they can be scratched, but we'll be careful)
 Their edges can be polished like glass
 They're about the same price as glass​People also use polycarbonate for clear paneling. But the plastics people I spoke with recommended acrylic for this... Polycarbonate is even more impact-resistant, but it's also considerably more expensive, and its edges can't be polished.


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