# Install siding on cinder block



## OLDummy

We have a 40 year old cinder block house to put siding on. Am looking at 'barn siding' in 4x8 sheets. 

What's the best way to install? Furring strips - nailed or screwed, etc???

Thanks everybody...

Terry

BTW.. we will consider other options also.. no vinyl! Thank you.


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## glennjanie

Welcome Terry:
The most secure method to install siding on blocks is to screw it on. There are several brands of screws that require a very small hole to be drilled and then they can be screwed directly into the blocks. The first one I can think of is Ackerman-Johnson (AJ's) but there are other brands too. Talk to the folks at the big box store near you.
It is a slow process but it is the only permanent process. If you use Contech PL400 construction adhesive also, it will require less screws.
Glenn


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## OLDummy

glennjanie said:


> Welcome Terry:
> The most secure method to install siding on blocks is to screw it on. There are several brands of screws that require a very small hole to be drilled and then they can be screwed directly into the blocks. The first one I can think of is Ackerman-Johnson (AJ's) but there are other brands too. Talk to the folks at the big box store near you.
> It is a slow process but it is the only permanent process. If you use Contech PL400 construction adhesive also, it will require less screws.
> Glenn



I've been told to "fur" with 1x3 first.. foam insulate between. 

I've also been told that a "22" nailer will shatter the block! So you ( and others ) are suggesting screw/glue fur into block and then nail or screw siding.

Thanks..

Terry


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## Daryl in Nanoose

I would go the furing strip method fasten to the block with Tapcons or screws as mentioned and PL400. Insulate with foamboard sheets.
 I myself would add 3/8" plywood and tarpaper in fact I think its code up here.


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## glennjanie

Hey Terry:
I know most folks like to use the furring strips but my experience shows the best method is to glue and screw directly to the blocks. Furring strips tend to turn loose and are difficult to repair and the direct method is a one-step process. It won't hurt my feelings at all if you go the other way; I'm simply sharing my experiences with you.
Let us know how it turns out for you; maybe even some before and after pictures.
Glenn


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## Daryl in Nanoose

glennjanie said:


> Hey Terry:
> I know most folks like to use the furring strips but my experience shows the best method is to glue and screw directly to the blocks. Furring strips tend to turn loose and are difficult to repair and the direct method is a one-step process. It won't hurt my feelings at all if you go the other way; I'm simply sharing my experiences with you.
> Let us know how it turns out for you; maybe even some before and after pictures.
> Glenn


 Good point Glenn, I will have to remember this.


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## OLDummy

glennjanie said:


> Hey Terry:
> I know most folks like to use the furring strips but my experience shows the best method is to glue and screw directly to the blocks. Furring strips tend to turn loose and are difficult to repair and the direct method is a one-step process. It won't hurt my feelings at all if you go the other way; I'm simply sharing my experiences with you.
> Let us know how it turns out for you; maybe even some before and after pictures.
> Glenn



Thanks guys..

Glenn I'm with you.. in fact after talking with our man @ HD he suggested just glue period.. especially since this is "old" block [ mid-60's.. ALL hollow.. I know because where there were old steel "channel" windows there are now 2 doorways.. to a walk-in closet and laundry room, and a back door. Not to mention framing 6 new windows and a sliding-glass door ] the block is rather "brittle"? Now you know why I'm the OLDummy.. I was a much younger older guy a couple years ago! 

Wattaya think?

Terry


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## glennjanie

Hey that's cool Terry:
Seems like I can remember being a younger dummy a few years ago..... or was that last week, hmmm, well you get the point.
I am interested to know something about your blocks. Lots of folks call blocks 'cinder blocks' where most of them are 'Concrete Masonry Units' now, but I can remember when they made blocks with cinders from the railroad as the agregate. Do your blocks show little rusty flakes and rather porus looking holes in them? I used to drive nails directly into the real cinder blocks with just a hammer and they held pretty good. That is how old I am.
Glenn


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## WICinderella

i am getting siding put on my 55 year old cinder block house and will either get board foam insulation between 2 x 4s or blown on foam between 2 x 4s.  If I get board siding especially I wonder if I should have a moisture barrier like 6 mil polyurethane put under the foam boards or even under the blown on foam.  One of the reasons I want the insulation under siding is to keep my house less moist on the inside.


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## OLDummy

We're still trying to determine the best way to go!

This block seems to be very "brittle".. will shatter quite easily whether nailed or pilot-screwed. I'm leaning toward gluing siding directly to the block.. with no "barrier" / insulation.. and possibly 5 nails to hold while glue sets. There seems to be concern about exterior humidity (?). Then concentrate on "insulating" the interior walls.... of course that will change the "living sq. footage" ha ha!

DUH Help!?

Terry


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## OLDummy

WICinderella said:


> i am getting siding put on my 55 year old cinder block house and will either get board foam insulation between 2 x 4s or blown on foam between 2 x 4s.  If I get board siding especially I wonder if I should have a moisture barrier like 6 mil polyurethane put under the foam boards or even under the blown on foam.  One of the reasons I want the insulation under siding is to keep my house less moist on the inside.



How do you intend to secure the 2x4's - that is my main concern!

Terry


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## glennjanie

There is another option for insulation in your block house. If you can get to the top of the blocks (even in the attic) you can pour vermiculite insulation in them. It does a wonderful job and the only drawback is, if you make a hole in the blocks or there is already a hole (like around a receptacle) the vermiculite will continue to pour out the hole until it empties that core and maybe a couple more. It doesn't change anything inside.
Do you have the walls covered on the inside? They could be plastered directly or have drywall glued on them (among other things).
Glenn


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## WICinderella

I have already had foam blown into the centers of the cinder blocks, which were hollow.  This gave me an R-5.  The contractor is talking about attaching the 2 x 4s with tap-con screws.  There will be 2 x 6s at the corners of the house, to anchor the vinyl siding.  I am getting 1 1/2 inches of foam board glued to the cinder block and then also furring strips which are 2 x 4s  with screws.  Then 1/2 inch of foam board over the 2 x 4s, for about R-11 for all the boards.  Then R-4 insulated vinyl siding over that.  The contractor said this will be R-15 total added.


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## glennjanie

That sounds like a plan to me, WICinderella.
Glenn


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## Daryl in Nanoose

Well you should notice a big difference, sounds good to me to.


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## WICinderella

I am thinking of going with another contractor because they don't use 2 x 4s.  They use 1 x 3 furring and no screws.  They use 2 inch of foam board and also the insulated vinyl siding.  I don't really understand how it can adhere strongly enough without screws, but he said they use marine adhesive.  Do you think this will hold up as strongly as 2 x 4s and screws?  The corners will be fully insulated, unlike with using the 2 x 6s at the corners.


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## guyod

How do they plan on using 2" foam with 3/4 strips?  are they planning on floating the siding 1 1/4 inches?  

Im in the middle of siding a cinder block house. I went with a 5/4 by 3 board and attached it with glue and concrete nails. they are holding very strong   im only using 4'x50' 3/8" insulation over top.(what the customer wanted) Im  having some  splitting issues when nailing im sure it would be alot worse if using a 1x3..

you are probably looking at an extra $1000 to use 2x4's..  

Im assuming your contractor is an professional and does this for a living im probably is no place to second guess him.. but at the least i would make sure he did other houses like this and check them out..


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## WICinderella

The contractor #1 using 2 x 4s and screws is asking less than the contractor #2 using 1 x3 furring strips and no screws.  What I want is not for the screws to come loose on the 2 x 4s.  How are 1 x 3 furring strips attached, always with nails, or sometimes with screws?  The only way I can see a 1 x3 furring strip working is if the 1" is against the wall so the strip extends out 3".


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## guyod

Contractor #1 is giving you the better deal then.. screws are better but are more money and take longer so a contractor wanting to use nails is going to want more $$ to use screws.. you can't attach 1x3's on there ends. .  there would wouldnt be enough surface area ..would you rather use furring strips because you dont like the idea of using 2x6's on the corners?

the 2X6 will make for alot stronger corners. the installer needs a nailing surface to attach the corner posts too then a surface to attach the start of the siding. 3" makes it a little tight and if he runs out of nailing surface it will just not get nailed.


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## WICinderella

My questions are: is the brittleness of cinder block going to causes screws to eventually detach, or is the glue alone weak enough to eventually detach?  If screws coming out cause the block to fragment, it that repairable?  How much weight can a furring strip hold?  Is a 2 x 4 better for holding the 2" foamboard and vinyl siding in place?  What kind of foam board, and what kind of foam-backed vinyl siding has the highest R value?


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## WICinderella

Thank you Guyod
That's what I wanted to find out.  Getting a little more insulation on the corners of the house is about all the benefit of not using 2 x4s and 2 x 6s as far as I can tell.  I will go with the contractor that is using the 2 x4s and 2 x 6s.


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## guyod

The screws aren't going go pull out. one screw has an pull out holding force of 500lb to 1500lb and  shear weight load of 800lb 1900lb. Depending on screw size and depth. That along with the glue they arent going anywhere..
Furring strips arent thick enough to hold alot especially with the extra weight of the insulated siding. and I still dont know how it works with the 2'' foam board.

If your that concerned with insulation you might want to look into a spray on type of insulation.. there is going to be alot of gaps with the foam insulation.. i dont know if it can be sprayed on the outside of a wall its normally done inside.  maybe someone here knows more about it..


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## guyod

And a house wrap vapor barrior would be a good idea if your stick with the foam.. the contractor wont like that idea because he wont be able to see his studs anymore but it will help stop air flow.


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## inspectorD

Lets collect your thoughts.... 

The spray foam is a really expensive idea....and for a block home is not cost effective. You need to get as much insulation board on the outside as possible. The less separations between a piece of wood and the styrofoam board and joints the better. The issue is also with your window flange depths, soffit, and rake boards. The more you build out from the existing wall...the more issues you deal with. The contractor with the 2x4 deal sounds like the better idea, if it will fit. The firring strips will hold, but not as well.
There are also vertical sidings with insulation inside which will need less nailing strips attached to the block, assuming you have 8 foot walls.

Go see some of their work and talk to past clients...that is what I always do for my customers. 

And remember...it's vinyl siding and really easy to repair anything underneath.


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## guyod

A 1200 sf home with 8' walls will cost about a $1000 to cover it in 2'' foam just for supplies probably another $1000 for labor.. Just To have a min. of 1800 feet of seams for cold air to get it. if its more than 8 feet height of siding that is another seam all around the house 200 ft.. How much more could spray on be for a basically seamless insulation?


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## inspectorD

This stuff is about 15 times fiberglass for interior insulation of the same r-value.
Just to get an Icynene truck to my job is $600, then the other work begins.
The issue is also that the insulation needs some breathing room on the exterior, Insulation board is not as tight, does not have an uneven surface to prepare....I don't know how you would get it flat without some sort of guides...then it would not be seamless anyway.
And you need to find a company in your area with closed cell foam, like styrofoam is. 
Try www..sprayfoam.org 
 or
www.sprayfoam.com.   for more info.


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## edgepicker

If you want an option why don't you try stone.  They have this new product Cut River Rock it is the real thing not fake.  Goes over concrete, board wall, cinderblock you get my drift.  Take a look http://www.cutriverock.com
Have a good one
edgepicker


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## OLDummy

UHHHHH???? We seem to be running around in circles guys. I don't plan to insulate on the outside! And there is paneling on the inside so hopefully the "fur" strips under it are "secure?"!..... so I can insulate inside.

Furring seems to be questionable as to how to secure them on old block! So I've decided against them.

How would you install "composition" panels on the exterior walls? Glue? Nails? Screws? Or a combination? 

Thanks...

Terry


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## guyod

Sorry about that someone else jumped in on your thread asking there own questions on siding cider block. 

Im not familiar with composition panels . is that what is put on commercial buildings?


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## OLDummy

Sorry 'bout that! Remember I'm the old dummy. 

By composition I mean products like Hardie and others that are a wood/laminate/masonary(?) "man-made" panel. OR.. a better wood panel. Anything but vinyl!

Thanks,

Terry


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