# Trump's Contract with America



## frodo

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/10/read-donald-trumps-contract-american-voter-full-text/

In his speech in Gettysburg, Donald Trump laid out the plan he will pursue during his first 100 days in office.

The plan is called the Donald J. Trump Contract With The American Voter.

Here&#8217;s the full text, via Trump&#8217;s website:

&#8220;Therefore, on the first day of my term of office, my administration will immediately pursue the following six measures to clean up the corruption and special interest collusion in Washington, DC:


FIRST, propose a Constitutional Amendment to impose term limits on all members of Congress;

SECOND, a hiring freeze on all federal employees to reduce federal workforce through attrition (exempting military, public safety, and public health);

THIRD, a requirement that for every new federal regulation, two existing regulations must be eliminated;

FOURTH, a 5 year-ban on White House and Congressional officials becoming lobbyists after they leave government service;

FIFTH, a lifetime ban on White House officials lobbying on behalf of a foreign government;

SIXTH, a complete ban on foreign lobbyists raising money for American elections.
On the same day, I will begin taking the following seven actions to protect American workers:


FIRST, I will announce my intention to renegotiate NAFTA or withdraw from the deal under Article 2205

SECOND, I will announce our withdrawal from the Trans-Pacific Partnership

THIRD, I will direct my Secretary of the Treasury to label China a currency manipulator

FOURTH, I will direct the Secretary of Commerce and U.S. Trade Representative to identify all foreign trading abuses that unfairly impact American workers and direct them to use every tool under American and international law to end those abuses immediately

FIFTH, I will lift the restrictions on the production of $50 trillion dollars&#8217; worth of job-producing American energy reserves, including shale, oil, natural gas and clean coal.

SIXTH, lift the Obama-Clinton roadblocks and allow vital energy infrastructure projects, like the Keystone Pipeline, to move forward

SEVENTH, cancel billions in payments to U.N. climate change programs and use the money to fix America&#8217;s water and environmental infrastructure
Additionally, on the first day, I will take the following five actions to restore security and the constitutional rule of law:

FIRST, cancel every unconstitutional executive action, memorandum and order issued by President Obama

SECOND, begin the process of selecting a replacement for Justice Scalia from one of the 20 judges on my list, who will uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States

THIRD, cancel all federal funding to Sanctuary Cities

FOURTH, begin removing the more than 2 million criminal illegal immigrants from the country and cancel visas to foreign countries that won&#8217;t take them back

FIFTH, suspend immigration from terror-prone regions where vetting cannot safely occur. All vetting of people coming into our country will be considered extreme vetting.

Next, I will work with Congress to introduce the following broader legislative measures and fight for their passage within the first 100 days of my Administration:


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## havasu

He's got my vote but unfortunately he kissed a girl 10 years ago, so he is not qualified to be our president according to the millions of lemmings who think it is ok that Killary's hubby shoved cigars up women, had many killed in Benghazi, lied through her teeth, and will sink this country. Did I mention that Trump said a nasty word 16 years ago?


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## chrisn

LOL:banana:


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## frodo

WHAT ?   DID you hear that ?  Listen......

that is the sound of poll number's risng


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## havasu

..............


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## Chris

Sure would be nice to make America great again. Seems most don't want it great though, they just want free crap.


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## nealtw

Chris said:


> Sure would be nice to make America great again. Seems most don't want it great though, they just want free crap.



I thinks Trumps great would have been back when only white male land owners voted and he would have won.


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## slownsteady

Having been a new Yorker in the '70s & '80s....and still living in the general NYC area, I can tell you that Trump has never done anything that wasn't in his own self interest. If he was to "Make America Great Again", it would be mostly by accidental side effect of his own efforts to profit from the deal.

Not that America isn't great already.......it is. But I don't believe that Trump is the guy to do it. it's all bull****. If you don't want to vote for Hillary, don't. But don't vote for Trump.


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## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> Having been a new Yorker in the '70s & '80s....and still living in the general NYC area, I can tell you that Trump has never done anything that wasn't in his own self interest. If he was to "Make America Great Again", it would be mostly by accidental side effect of his own efforts to profit from the deal.
> 
> Not that America isn't great already.......it is. But I don't believe that Trump is the guy to do it. it's all bull****. If you don't want to vote for Hillary, don't. But don't vote for Trump.



Well then I just won't vote.:trophy:


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## havasu

I have a feeling there will be many folks who will be saying, "I told you so" very soon.


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## Chris

nealtw said:


> I thinks Trumps great would have been back when only white male land owners voted and he would have won.



Not sure why you think that but ok. I am also against illegal immigration so I must be a racist as well?


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## havasu

I also heard you cuss a few years ago Chris. You are a pig and not worthy of living with all the lemmings.


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## nealtw

Chris said:


> Not sure why you think that but ok. I am also against illegal immigration so I must be a racist as well?



I don't think one means the other and you would have to decide that for yourself.


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## Chris

havasu said:


> I also heard you cuss a few years ago Chris. You are a pig and not worthy of living with all the lemmings.



Great! when can I leave?



nealtw said:


> I don't think one means the other and you would have to decide that for yourself.



I am very against illegal immigration but also very for legal immigration, several of my employees are mexican immigrants and they know the value of a dollar. It's the Americans that are lazy. I am not racist in the least but I also hate anyone from any race that is s criminal, thief, liar or lazy. 

It's just odd how so many people call others racist because they are against illegal immigration, I hear it around here all the time.


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## KULTULZ

Chris said:


> It's just odd how so many people call others racist because they are against illegal immigration, I hear it around here all the time.



It is a mindset that has been instilled for years (public education mainly). It is designed for you to accept the malady rather than disdain.

They are illegal aliens, not immigrants.


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## bud16415

slownsteady said:


> Having been a new Yorker in the '70s & '80s....and still living in the general NYC area, I can tell you that Trump has never done anything that wasn't in his own self interest. If he was to "Make America Great Again", it would be mostly by accidental side effect of his own efforts to profit from the deal.



I have been trying to stay out of anything political on the forum but when I read the absolute truth as above I must comment. 

 That is exactly what the founders of this country had in mind. They wanted a place where your number one goal is to take care of yourself and your family first and we all have an equal chance of doing that. The fall off isnt that someone else might accidental benefit by anothers prosperity but that it is the way it works. No one person can go it alone we all need help. The guy with the vision and drive needs help. Henry Ford didnt build all those cars by himself. All those people that worked for him were free to leave at any time and stayed because they were getting a share of the wealth in terms of a good pay check every week. They were free to go and build a business of their own if they wanted. 

Nowhere does it say the government is supposed to take care of everyone or anyone. Families and communities used to do a good job of doing that. Businesses like Ford started did a good job of it even with realizing people needed pensions and insurance. 

It wasnt until the deck became stacked against this country that things went sour. Countries that were not founded on our beliefs and operate against us not on a level playing field came into play. Trumps defense for playing within the rules is perfect I think. He has taken advantage of every single law and loophole there is and made himself prosper. He agrees it is not right and could have been changed and has said over and over he has done the same things Warren Buffett and George Soros has done and likewise came out ahead doing on a much huger scale than Trump. Buffett always says it isnt right he pay a lesser tax rate than his secretary. Nothing is stopping him or George Soros or any billionaire from sending a few billion extra in with their federal return. Instead they contribute heavily to the person who wants to raise their taxes. That always seemed odd to me.  

I wont tell anyone to vote for one or the other and surely not to vote for no one. I will tell everyone to vote how they feel. America is great still and the fact we can vote is one indicator of that. I have worked in industry my whole life and watched industry leave the country. After NAFTA I spent a lot of time helping the work move south. Because it was my job. I didnt like it and I was free to stay or leave. I even saw the good side of it as I saw some mild benefits of it happen for the people south of us very mild. All the time I kept hearing the words of another billionaire business man that ran for president saying we were about to hear a giant sucking sound of the jobs leaving the country. That of course was Ross Perot. 

I will advise Neal not to vote as he is our neighbor to the north, but if he really wants to come down and vote he probably can as long as he tells them a name thats on the registry list.


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## oldognewtrick

I guess my biggest frustration with the political process has been the blatant slanted bias of the media.


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## nealtw

*There are 6,722 people who work for the Executive Branch of the government. The president appoints about 1,200 of them, including Cabinet members,*
SECOND, a hiring freeze on all federal employees to reduce federal workforce through attrition (exempting military, public safety, and public health);

I guess you believe he could really do it alone.

Mister Trump says and does anything to get free coverage by the news, maybe you noticed. And now he gets to much coverage, really.

I have noticed that only one side starts these threads and for the most part I am the only one answering and not for the other side.

So I guess we will just see how the silent majority vote. Dicky will be so happy


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## havasu

Not pointing fingers, but just wondering if folks outside of the US strongly support Hillary because they themselves receive some sort of compensation for it, such as foreign aid? And Trump's plan is to eliminate it? I know this is why the welfare folks support her 100%.


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## oldognewtrick

nealtw said:


> *I have noticed that only one side starts these threads and for the most part I am the only one answering and not for the other side.*


*

I am FAR from a Trump supporter, FAR! I don't want either of them and am disgusted that of the many millions of people in the USA, these two are the best we can offer to run our nation. I do think it's time for change, but I don't see these candidates doing anything to improve things. I may be wrong, time will tell.*


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## nealtw

havasu said:


> Not pointing fingers, but just wondering if folks outside of the US strongly support Hillary because they themselves receive some sort of compensation for it, such as foreign aid? And Trump's plan is to eliminate it? I know this is why the welfare folks support her 100%.



Welfare.
Ask that question after you have spent ten minutes thinking about where those people go to beg for something to eat.
How about the stores that only make money on welfare days. Now you have those employees and small business people looking for jobs.
Will he include farm subsidies and the like?


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## nealtw

oldognewtrick said:


> I am FAR from a Trump supporter, FAR! I don't want either of them and am disgusted that of the many millions of people in the USA, these two are the best we can offer to run our nation. I do think it's time for change, but I don't see these candidates doing anything to improve things. I may be wrong, time will tell.



17 egomaniacs got on a stage,, hmm, there is a punch line here somewhere.


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## bud16415

oldognewtrick said:


> I guess my biggest frustration with the political process has been the blatant slanted bias of the media.



The thing about bias is we always interpret it using our own perspective as a starting point or zero point. Thats why as a conservative watching Fox news we see them as being spot on and not biased at all. You then have a liberal watching CNN and they say CNN is spot on and Fox is wildly biased. When you look at all the news coverage combined the majority of TV is leaning hard liberal and the majority of talk radio is strongly conservative. Talk radio is like preaching to the choir. Nobody is changing their opinion based around most media as they only watch the media that supports their beliefs, and when they do watch the other it is to condemn any ideas that come from that source or hoping for failure. 

These political ads on TV are also not changing anyones mind  they are there to bolster the belief of the believer or to scare the uninformed. I think these add where they show Trump saying stupid stuff 30 years ago about women on some late night show that was long forgotten and now playing it over and over as background with a bunch of young girls looking in mirrors at prime time serve no purpose except convincing people that already will vote for Clinton to make sure they vote. In some ways you want to see Trump put out a nonstop ad of Bill admitting to having some lewd sexual encounters with a collage girl younger than his daughter in the white house and Hillary defending him that it was all made up. As much as that would be great to see it wouldnt gain Trump one vote from the people he needs to vote for him or they would be doing that. 

I remember Ross Perot buying a half hour or hour of air time on prime time to explain real facts and figures with numbers and charts of the impact of NAFTA and the economy. Hardly anyone but the well informed watched it and tried to understand it. All he did was waste his millions preaching to the choir and giving SNL fodder for a month of comedy routines, and that is what they remember the same as thats what everyone remembers Palin as. 

After each debate I flipped back and forth between Fox and main stream media and both bias were there. These reporters spinning the facts Fox saying he hit it out of the park, main stream saying Trump will never recover from such a bad debate. Both opinions are biased it is just an easier pill to swallow watching the news that thinks like we do. What I think people should do is watch the opposite news with an open mind and try and find logic in the information being given as fact. If you do that and still believe the other logic is correct then thats how you should vote. 


When it comes to jobs it is pretty easy to see both lines of logic. One person is going to have the government make jobs by all of us fixing 75 years of neglect to the country itself. Roads, power, water, etc. the money to do that should come from the rest of us paying taxes but not enough people are working to do that so we are going to take it from the super-rich or just print more money. The other side is saying lets put people back to work for the super-rich by making the super-rich play on a level field or slightly downhill if they play the game here instead of China or India or Mexico. No doubt this will be hurting China, India and Mexico to name a few but it will help here. The idea is put down as trickle down. It is up to anyone that cares to view both sides of every issue objectively and see where they believe truth falls.


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## oldognewtrick

Fox is no better than CNN or MSNBC or any of them....


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## Chris

As I have said before, we chose these two and now we have to play the hand we dealt. Our options are slim and not voting is just ignoring the problem at hand and voting for one of the others is almost pointless. I vote like most should, look at what is going to benefit you personally the most and vote accordingly. I just can't vote for a known criminal and someone I know will flip flop depending on who is footing the bill. That type of person will do nothing for me.


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## Chris

nealtw said:


> Welfare.
> Ask that question after you have spent ten minutes thinking about where those people go to beg for something to eat.
> How about the stores that only make money on welfare days. Now you have those employees and small business people looking for jobs.
> Will he include farm subsidies and the like?



Do you think any government will just let people die in the streets? If one thing changes the rest will follow.

I'm curious, do you have small businesses that solely rely on government assistance? Around here the small business that accept government money just rake it in but still do ok with normal cash sales. I would say most here take advantage of the government money. But also around here we have more corruption and welfare fraud than we do people that actually need the welfare.


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## havasu

I could never understand the welfare laws. One kid will get you $800 a month. Two kids will get you $1200 a month. Three kids will get you $1600 a month. There is no incentives for the welfare folks to understand responsibility. As Chris said, the entire system is broken. The same goes to foreign aid. Why in the hell should we give any country ANY money?


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## bud16415

nealtw said:


> Welfare.
> Ask that question after you have spent ten minutes thinking about where those people go to beg for something to eat.
> How about the stores that only make money on welfare days. Now you have those employees and small business people looking for jobs.
> Will he include farm subsidies and the like?



In a free market society there would be no reason for farm subsidies or any subsidies for that matter. People would have to do one of two things, accept that a gallon of milk has to cost more than a gallon of water, or stop buying dairy products and let that industry fail and there would be no milk or dairy products. The way it is now the subsidies are a way of placing control over an industry and choking them slowly to death. You have to understand money is just something to facilitate the movement of an economy. No one was helped in the housing industry by the government making it so people that couldnt afford a house could buy one. Sure it is a Nobel idea that everyone should have a nice house and cheap food and a car and a cell phone. But you cant put out a product into the money stream unless some money is following along pushing it. printing money and giving it out is not the same as increasing the speed of the money we already have in the pipeline. 

In a free market society there would be no store that waits around for welfare day to sell its goods. I think you would agree maybe not though. Could every single person in a society be on welfare? Lets just go with direct deposit so we dont have to print money and each week we add some to everyones account enough so they have a comfortable life. We buy all our products we need from other countries because of course we cant make them here as no one works. If you think that will work and see no problem then lets keep going we are about half way there and it seems to be working just fine.


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## nealtw

Chris said:


> Do you think any government will just let people die in the streets? If one thing changes the rest will follow.
> 
> I'm curious, do you have small businesses that solely rely on government assistance? Around here the small business that accept government money just rake it in but still do ok with normal cash sales. I would say most here take advantage of the government money. But also around here we have more corruption and welfare fraud than we do people that actually need the welfare.



Yes you are talking about people dying in the street unless you have heard something I have not.

Go talk to Walmart, and other big stores and ask them what % of business comes from food stamps. Slum landlords are bad enough now, what happens when these people can't pay rent.

*Welfare fraud* nice talking point, divide and conquer.


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## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> In a free market society there would be no reason for farm subsidies or any subsidies for that matter. People would have to do one of two things, accept that a gallon of milk has to cost more than a gallon of water, or stop buying dairy products and let that industry fail and there would be no milk or dairy products. The way it is now the subsidies are a way of placing control over an industry and choking them slowly to death. You have to understand money is just something to facilitate the movement of an economy. No one was helped in the housing industry by the government making it so people that couldnt afford a house could buy one. Sure it is a Nobel idea that everyone should have a nice house and cheap food and a car and a cell phone. But you cant put out a product into the money stream unless some money is following along pushing it. printing money and giving it out is not the same as increasing the speed of the money we already have in the pipeline.
> 
> In a free market society there would be no store that waits around for welfare day to sell its goods. I think you would agree maybe not though. Could every single person in a society be on welfare? Lets just go with direct deposit so we dont have to print money and each week we add some to everyones account enough so they have a comfortable life. We buy all our products we need from other countries because of course we cant make them here as no one works. If you think that will work and see no problem then lets keep going we are about half way there and it seems to be working just fine.



So you could go back to the 1920s before welfare and call that time great.

But even then you had oil subsidies that are still in effect, do you think anybody is talking about that when they talk about welfare.

Who caused that depression and what stopped it from happening for 70 years.
And then what changed. It wasn't welfare people or people buying houses.

It was simply and lack of banking regulation.


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## bud16415

nealtw said:


> So you could go back to the 1920s before welfare and call that time great.
> 
> But even then you had oil subsidies that are still in effect, do you think anybody is talking about that when they talk about welfare.
> 
> Who caused that depression and what stopped it from happening for 70 years.
> And then what changed. It wasn't welfare people or people buying houses.
> 
> It was simply and lack of banking regulation.



 They didnt call it the roaring twenties for nothing. 

Actually the great depression was in part caused by buying houses and way to much unsecured credit nationwide. I never said regulations were a bad thing a certain amount are always needed. We have regulations on our regulations now in fact. 

That depression was made longer and worst by the well-intended idea of taxing the country back to prosperity because those rich guys that create the jobs are just not paying their fair share. 

The 20s were not so bad but the 30s really sucked.


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## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> They didnt call it the roaring twenties for nothing.
> 
> Actually the great depression was in part caused by buying houses and way to much unsecured credit nationwide. I never said regulations were a bad thing a certain amount are always needed. We have regulations on our regulations now in fact.
> 
> That depression was made longer and worst by the well-intended idea of taxing the country back to prosperity because those rich guys that create the jobs are just not paying their fair share.
> 
> The 20s were not so bad but the 30s really sucked.



And the answer to the question was *Glass Steagall Act* and who repealed it, the GOP and Clinton.

Who gets to decide which regulations. I think that is a power the president does have, that should scare the crap out of you.


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## KULTULZ

Chris said:


> As I have said before, we chose these two and now we have to play the hand we dealt.





*WE* have chosen, we being the citizens (legal)? 

The presidency is decided by big business. It is HILDABEAST's turn for the White House now (punching lunch ticket). Ever wonder how she got blown off for OBAMA? Someone stopped the CLINTON MACHINE in 2008 and that person is very rich and powerful.

They destroyed health care, the military and only GOD knows what else (waiting for smoke to clear and dust to settle).

If one is not afraid to vote with zombies, having to wait in line for many to vote twice or more or have an interpreter there to pull the lever for them, then hit the polls. 

Trump is less of a risk than Hillary as the establishment is not going allow him to do what he says. It is all fixed. She has already spouted out nuclear response times, wonder if the foundation got a contribution for that?

Please vote, and vote often.


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## KULTULZ

Chris said:


> Do you think any government will just let people die in the streets? If one thing changes the rest will follow.



Happens every day Chris.

Homeless, the mentally ill and veterans. And this is only the US...


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## Chris

Nevermind...


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## Chris

KULTULZ said:


> Happens every day Chris.
> 
> Homeless, the mentally ill and veterans. And this is only the US...



You got me, I wasn't thinking of them when I think of welfare. Those groups have been a problem for years, we could take 1/3 from what we call welfare and support everyone in those groups. I was just talking to a buddy yesterday about mental heath hospitals and how they are far and few between anymore, seems they have mostly been shut down.

Odd how you can fight for our country and then get such poor services yet pop out a few kids and you get first rate Healthcare. Doesn't make much sense.


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## nealtw

I don't know what the problem is or maybe I do.

A candidate and his party gives you permission to hate the other, which ever other you in particular don't like, we could list the 20 or 30 suggested by one or more people.

No remedy to a problem as there is no explanation of the cause of the problem.

Most people don't like to admit that they hate anything, so now you are here looking for some way to vote for him with out admitting you do have hates, hell you have my permission.

Remember, the most loved among you is the under educated if that helps you fit in. Trumps words not mine.

A great democracy is not the hard right or the hard left, good leaders don't promote hate they work thru problems.

What makes your country great are the twenty % of voters that do the best they can at sorting out the BS to figure out what is best for themselves, their family and their COUNTRY.


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## Chris

I for one don't hate either side and they both have good points, if they could work together that would be great. I am not sure when things changed from promoting yourself to slamming your opponent but it is really annoying. We really don't have much good to say about either and honestly I have no idea how either have made it this far.

On another note I must be dumb when it comes to how someone is elected, do our votes count for anything at all? I mean all over the news they talk about electoral votes and how if trump doesn't get more he will not be president. If this whole thing is based on electoral votes than why do we bother voting? I remember last election I was on my way to my polling place when they announced Obama as president. I thought to myself how is this possible when not everyone has even voted yet? I think this whole system is rigged and predetermined and bought. The more I look at politics the less I like how this country is run.


This whole election is two monkeys ****ing a football and we are the football.


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## nealtw

Chris said:


> I for one don't hate either side and they both have good points, if they could work together that would be great. I am not sure when things changed from promoting yourself to slamming your opponent but it is really annoying. We really don't have much good to say about either and honestly I have no idea how either have made it this far.
> 
> On another note I must be dumb when it comes to how someone is elected, do our votes count for anything at all? I mean all over the news they talk about electoral votes and how if trump doesn't get more he will not be president. If this whole thing is based on electoral votes than why do we bother voting? I remember last election I was on my way to my polling place when they announced Obama as president. I thought to myself how is this possible when not everyone has even voted yet? I think this whole system is rigged and predetermined and bought. The more I look at politics the less I like how this country is run.
> 
> 
> This whole election is two monkeys ****ing a football and we are the football.



If I may, hating the opposition is only one of the choices.

You have voiced some pretty strong views on things you don't like.
Where some people kiss
Where some people pee
Where some people live
Why some people get welfare
Why some people get food stamps
Why you have water regulations
Guns.
Pick one , you fit right in.

You will have years to explain that to your kids, and they will ask.:down:


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## KULTULZ

Chris said:


> You got me, I wasn't thinking of them when I think of welfare. Those groups have been a problem for years, we could take 1/3 from what we call welfare and support everyone in those groups. I was just talking to a buddy yesterday about mental heath hospitals and how they are far and few between anymore, seems they have mostly been shut down.
> 
> Odd how you can fight for our country and then get such poor services yet pop out a few kids and you get first rate Healthcare. Doesn't make much sense.



It wasn't welfare I was referring to, it was your statement that the government wouldn't allow citizens to die in the street. Another example, South Chicago. How about all that die everyday as the result of illegals (they are not in any way immigrants) criminal acts? How about all of those children in Waco?

Think real hard why there are welfare mothers.


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## KULTULZ

nealtw said:


> If I may, hating the opposition is only one of the choices.
> 
> You have voiced some pretty strong views on things you don't like.
> Where some people kiss
> Where some people pee
> Where some people live
> Why some people get welfare
> Why some people get food stamps
> Why you have water regulations
> Guns.
> Pick one , you fit right in.
> 
> You will have years to explain that to your kids, and they will ask.:down:



The kids are indoctrinated in public schools and have been since the Vietnam era.

They are also void of GOD.


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## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> The kids are indoctrinated in public schools and have been since the Vietnam era.
> 
> They are also void of GOD.



Both can be used for good or bad.

:hide:


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## Chris

nealtw said:


> If I may, hating the opposition is only one of the choices.
> 
> You have voiced some pretty strong views on things you don't like.
> Where some people kiss
> Where some people pee
> Where some people live
> Why some people get welfare
> Why some people get food stamps
> Why you have water regulations
> Guns.
> Pick one , you fit right in.
> 
> You will have years to explain that to your kids, and they will ask.:down:



I really don't care where people kiss, pee or live. Don't care why they get welfare unless it is because they are scamming the system. Not sure what you mean by I fit right in? What do I need to explain to my kids? I am raising them to be good, honest hard working people.

Should I jump on the band wagon of voting for free stuff? Should I raise my kids to expect their government to take care of them? Is that what is good?

I am probably in the wrong but I don't know why people get grief for not wanting to support an establishment that is known for corruption, wasting money and coming up with new programs just to pocket more money?



Just because I am against Welfare Fraud does not mean I want people to die in the streets.

Just because I think these welfare programs are a free for all for most does not mean I want them gone.

Just because I am for the 2nd amendment doesn't mean everyone should own guns.

I think you are looking at things all wrong, I am not against any of these government programs or people, I am against corruption, cheating, stealing, scamming and the like. I vote on the conservative side because they are the only ones looking out for my well being as a small business owner and even they don't really care. I personally with my business support six families and 11 children and I am about to throw in the towel and give it up. With all the government regulation and frivolous lawsuits I am barely staying above water. I pay almost 70% of my companies income into tax and insurances that are required. I have the stress of trying to support all these people and the worry of the what ifs. All to make about the same as I would working a full time job somewhere else. The only reason I did not throw in the towel last year was all the families that I support will be unemployed but it is getting to the point that I have to look at my own family first and they can figure their own stuff out.


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## Chris

KULTULZ said:


> It wasn't welfare I was referring to, it was your statement that the government wouldn't allow citizens to die in the street. Another example, South Chicago. How about all that die everyday as the result of illegals (they are not in any way immigrants) criminal acts? How about all of those children in Waco?
> 
> Think real hard why there are welfare mothers.



People dying in the streets because of crime was not what I was referring to. And honestly I don't know why we have crime the way we do? Maybe if we had some sort of repercussion if you committed a crime than maybe less people would commit crimes. Start public hangings again and people will probably stop committing so much crime, how about chain gangs? Or we can just stick with giving them lazy boys and pool tables and cable TV because that seems to work well so far. Look at the gun laws in Chicago? Only people with guns are the criminals.

Government can't do everything! We as people need to do our best at raising good people, help your neighbors and take care of your communities. All that is a thing of the past.

I think you and I have a different perspective on welfare. I live in Southern California where there is more corruption in the welfare system than anything else. I can meet 9 welfare recipients scamming the system for one that is not. That alone puts a bad taste in my mouth. Like I said before I am not against any of these programs but more against the corruption and the nobody gives a **** attitude that the corruption is going on.

Tax dollars that are spent are my money just like yours so the more of it we can save the more money we can keep in our pockets. Or am I wrong for thinking that to?


----------



## havasu

Take a deep breath Chris. I sure don't want you to stroke out and also get on unemployment  because there aint no money left. It was all.stolen by cheaters of the system. &#55357;&#56841;


----------



## frodo

I agree 100% with Chris,
I am against cradle to grave welfare,  I firmly believe that the welfare system should be a temporary service to help people thru a rough time
and help them get on their feet.
I think that was what it was designed for in the first place


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> I agree 100% with Chris,
> I am against cradle to grave welfare,  I firmly believe that the welfare system should be a temporary service to help people thru a rough time
> and help them get on their feet.
> I think that was what it was designed for in the first place



I agree 100%, can't say I have heard that either.:nono:


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> I really don't care where people kiss, pee or live. Don't care why they get welfare unless it is because they are scamming the system. Not sure what you mean by I fit right in? What do I need to explain to my kids? I am raising them to be good, honest hard working people.
> 
> Should I jump on the band wagon of voting for free stuff? Should I raise my kids to expect their government to take care of them? Is that what is good?
> 
> I am probably in the wrong but I don't know why people get grief for not wanting to support an establishment that is known for corruption, wasting money and coming up with new programs just to pocket more money?
> 
> 
> 
> Just because I am against Welfare Fraud does not mean I want people to die in the streets.
> 
> Just because I think these welfare programs are a free for all for most does not mean I want them gone.
> 
> Just because I am for the 2nd amendment doesn't mean everyone should own guns.
> 
> I think you are looking at things all wrong, I am not against any of these government programs or people, I am against corruption, cheating, stealing, scamming and the like. I vote on the conservative side because they are the only ones looking out for my well being as a small business owner and even they don't really care. I personally with my business support six families and 11 children and I am about to throw in the towel and give it up. With all the government regulation and frivolous lawsuits I am barely staying above water. I pay almost 70% of my companies income into tax and insurances that are required. I have the stress of trying to support all these people and the worry of the what ifs. All to make about the same as I would working a full time job somewhere else. The only reason I did not throw in the towel last year was all the families that I support will be unemployed but it is getting to the point that I have to look at my own family first and they can figure their own stuff out.



Come on welfare is run by the state, maybe gone to far to the left after years of going to far right in the 80s or 90s

Application for welfare are likely confidential so all you are doing is repeating right wing talking points.

Just like Canada the left leaning provinces fill up with unemployed and welfare people because the right leaning ones don't look after their own.

So what will Trump do with inner cities, Irac , nato, nor rad trade deals, the banks.

I have listened to most of what he has said, and I can tell you that you have know idea what he will do because he hasn't said what he will do.

Start trade war, good luck with that, trade will only slow in your country.
Drop out of nato, your on your own.
Pull forces from around the world, nato gets bigger.
That is if the banks don't screw with the world economy first.

Have you actually looked to see if Trump's plan would lower your taxes


----------



## slownsteady

There is so much to respond to, that I don't even know where to begin......
*Congrats to all of you for keeping this discussion civil and avoiding insults*. please continue in this vein.
Also, congrats for waiting this long before starting a thread like this...I'm surprised it didn't start months ago.


----------



## Chris

I personally know several people cheating the welfare system, just about everyone around here knows a few people. Nobody hides it like you may think, there are groups that are designed to help you get every bit you can. It's no secret.

All the local right wing people I know go out of their way to help those in need. In fact they go much further than the left wing people. 

I have no idea what Trump will do with taxes and inner cities and all your other worries but I have heard what hillary will do so I will take my chances with Trump. 

It's not always about fixing the wound but merely stopping the bleeding for a little while.

Hillary will likely be the straw that breaks my companies back. Then six families will be without an income and I am sure I will be to blame for not finding another way.

Unless you run a business in California you have no idea what I am talking about. This state is so far left it doesn't know what right is and is the least business friendly state around.


Like I said, everyone is out to **** us anyway they can, I'm just choosing to have a little lube when they do.


----------



## Chris

Look at just finances between the left and right. Let's compare California and Texas, about the same amount of people and tax money. Texas has great roads, good schools, and is not in debt to anyone and the people are happy. Now take California where the roads are horrible, schools suck and the state is so broke they don't know what to do. Not even a comparison


----------



## Chris

Tell me why you fight so hard for the left? Do you truly believe they are overall doing that much better for the general public than the right? And define better?


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Look at just finances between the left and right. Let's compare California and Texas, about the same amount of people and tax money. Texas has great roads, good schools, and is not in debt to anyone and the people are happy. Now take California where the roads are horrible, schools suck and the state is so broke they don't know what to do. Not even a comparison



Grass is greener. All the poor people moved to your back yard and every little town has a fertilizer plant and it's against the law to ask how dangerous that might be for the school or old age home next door.


----------



## Chris

People don't have to be poor. Unless there is a physical or mental issue of course. But in general people have all the opportunity in the world to get ahead. You don't need money to succeed.


----------



## slownsteady

Chris said:


> People don't have to be poor. Unless there is a physical or mental issue of course. But in general people have all the opportunity in the world to get ahead. You don't need money to succeed.


If that is true, you need to define "succeed".


----------



## Chris

slownsteady said:


> If that is true, you need to define "succeed".



Family, roof and food is great success. You don't need to make a bunch of money, an honest living providing for your family is what I call success. You don't need a fancy car or house, heck you don't need a car at all.

I have lived both sides of the spectrum and I can honestly say I had a much more enjoyable life when I worked my 40 lived in a small house and didn't have anything fancy.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Family, roof and food is great success. You don't need to make a bunch of money, an honest living providing for your family is what I call success. You don't need a fancy car or house, heck you don't need a car at all.
> 
> I have lived both sides of the spectrum and I can honestly say I had a much more enjoyable life when I worked my 40 lived in a small house and didn't have anything fancy.



So you were happy to work your forty and do your thing on weekends.
That's great as long as you can land that job that keeps you working with a living wage.


----------



## havasu

Neal, just curious, but does Canada have welfare, state aid, free phones, free groceries, and free housing for the poor? If so, why pays for this luxury?


----------



## nealtw

havasu said:


> Neal, just curious, but does Canada have welfare, state aid, free phones, free groceries, and free housing for the poor? If so, why pays for this luxury?



Don't quote me as fact but I think Welfare has a housing allowance and a food and other allowance. I think three or four people would have to share a rental if lucky, a bunch of politicians just finished trying to live on 18 a week for food, I haven't heard how they made out. There are charity food banks that are always asking for help. I don't know about phones but now if you can find a payphone but you need a credit card to use them so maybe in some cases a phone might make sense.
We have lower taxes on the rich and corporations than you do and the poor aren't paying so guess who. Actually that isn't right either because the don't raise the tax on the middle class so much but they put taxes on everything so yes the poor will pay tax too. Booze, smokes, candy bridges, fuel, carbon, recycle on tires and batteries as well as sales tax. And the real special is a lotto, the rich don't buy those tickets.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> So you were happy to work your forty and do your thing on weekends.
> That's great as long as you can land that job that keeps you working with a living wage.



It must be hard where you live to get a job, around here it is pretty easy. People are begging for employee's. That and unless you give absolutely no effort you can move up pretty quickly. Mcdonalds pays a living wage around here.

Or you can do what myself and so many others have done and either have a roommate or get a smaller home. I am nothing special, I am uneducated, I dropped out of 10th grade, I have had no official training in anything, I had no money growing up and I seemed to have done ok for myself, what makes me any different than any other poor person out there? All I ever did was give 100%, 100% of the time. I should not be looked down upon just because I worked hard and got ahead. 

It sounds like you want people to be successful without ever trying or working for it? I am those people you are talking about or was 15 years ago. My family is still those poor people and are 100% happy in their lives, I wanted more so I got it just like any other poor person can do. I worked three jobs at a time in my early 20's all paying less than a living wage, that is why I have little sympathy for those who don't try.


----------



## nealtw

I am not up to date on welfare but years ago I had a part time book keeper that found herself on welfare when the husband left town. She could earn $100 dollars a month after that she lost dollar for dollar. So she would only work 10 hrs. I looked at it at the time with a tilt to my head until I thought about it. I don't remember the numbers but let's say she was getting 1000 and could earn 10 an hour. In a month she would earn 1600 less taxes a/20% so she worked the whole month for about 200 more dollars but out of that she has to have office appropriate clothes and transportation. I guess you could take money away on a sliding scale but that just punishes the guy working and making it on min wage because he didn't qualify for welfare.

Your story is not a lot different than mine, you took advantage of a situation and it worked. I just don't fault somebody for not want to go to work for pennies more than welfare. Once they are there they are stuck and it is tough to break loose of it.

I have worked with some of those people you talk about, believe some should just stay on welfare, they just get in the way on a job.


----------



## Chris

We call them the unemployable. I have guys that pick up an application from the business next door to mine and turn them into mine, different companies and the logo is not even close to the same. And then guys that bring them to me and ask that I drop it off next door when they return from lunch. I just throw them away. I hire a lot of young guys with no education and almost every one of them wants to make more than my experienced guys and want to be the equipment operator a week into the job. they don't last long after that, most get upset that they have to learn to work a shovel before anything else and they think I am joking, working a shovel properly takes skill and experience. I can dig for eight hours straight without killing myself. I can move five yards of dirt by hand no problem.

I had a buddy like you mention that was making more on unemployment than he would working minimum wage so he didn't bother looking for work. For me I just can't do that. I don't care if I am breaking even to what I would make sitting at home, I have to do it for myself. I have to know I worked for that money, my brain doesn't know any better.


----------



## nealtw

It rally doesn't make any difference until you have close to zero unemployed. If you have 90% employment 10% have to be somewhere. If a politician is running on a welfare story, I expect he can talk about all this stuff or he is just blowing smoke and not worth the ballot.


----------



## nealtw

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Nca9vwTEs[/ame]


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> I agree 100%, can't say I have heard that either.:nono:



Sorry Mr Neal,  just because you have not heard of it does not mean it is false


do not know where you are.  but I am here in the south where cradle to grave is the norm.

these kids start getting social security benefits [SSI] at age 6, when they go to school and are diagnosed as ADD

let me enligten you as to how the system is scammed...

a man and wife have chuuldrens,

the man goes to work, he keeps his clothes at his Mama's house.  {hince the term  "I stays"   not "i live"]

the wife applies for everything, claiming husband has left.. no support with chuuldrens.

she receives, free rent,electric is paid, 1/2 the gas bill, food stamps
welfare
they passed a law,  social worker has to phone you 24 hours before coming over to inspect.
and, they only work 9-5
husband goes to work, takes the tv, pc,nintendo etc with him
social worker comes over to a poor , lonely abandoned house wife with chuuldrens  and nothing in the house 
she signs off, inspected..OK
after 5 pm. hubby comes home with a paycheck.

I see them every month at wally world with a cart full of ribs, brisket, ham  the food stamp is spent on meat
for the bbq


----------



## nealtw

Again, that is state issue a red state at that, when will vote for change.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> It rally doesn't make any difference until you have close to zero unemployed. If you have 90% employment 10% have to be somewhere. If a politician is running on a welfare story, I expect he can talk about all this stuff or he is just blowing smoke and not worth the ballot.





and the gimmie gimmie people do not care about any issues except what the 
politictian says he will give them.

just like when Bernie said he would give free college.

all they see is the word free,  they do not see that it has to be paid for
that means your earnings will be less because of tax's.

then you have the ones who say,  well it is only $5 cents out of each dollar
that is nothing. we can afford that.
and then another 5 cents, another 5 cents another....

then you wind up. at 80% of your income as tax

no thank you.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> Again, that is state issue a red state at that, when will vote for change.



that is not just one state.  this is country wide   dont you get that?



is Illinois  a red state ?    i


----------



## frodo

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-is-now-the-biggest-food-stamp-user-in-the-midwest/


ILLINOIS IS NOW THE BIGGEST FOOD-STAMP USER IN THE MIDWEST


----------



## frodo

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/01/25/us/20090126-welfare-table.html?_r=0


----------



## nealtw

Now you are getting carried away with 80%
Again the application for welfare would be confidential. So I call BS, I can smell it from here.

When Reagan was Gov. in Cal he talked about how hard it is to really help people off the welfare, so he understood the problems as you see them and the problems those people have and then he called them welfare queens to get your vote 

I think the engine is fine but you do need a set of spark plugs


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/01/25/us/20090126-welfare-table.html?_r=0



Your chart is after 8 years of Bush and you were still a red state. What's the definition of insanity.


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-is-now-the-biggest-food-stamp-user-in-the-midwest/
> 
> 
> ILLINOIS IS NOW THE BIGGEST FOOD-STAMP USER IN THE MIDWEST



Now you are talking about a living wage and the need for one. Walmart is getting rich off food stamps


----------



## nealtw

Now tell me again how Trump will fix anything. He didn't think he had to bone up for a debate, you think he will do better in the job


----------



## frodo

we were not discussing trump or bush we were discussing welfare.

i see you want to deflect on each issue.


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> we were not discussing trump or bush we were discussing welfare.
> 
> i see you want to deflect on each issue.



My I remind you that you posted, Trumps contract. You are the one of page.

Apology accepted.:thbup:


----------



## nealtw

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj8_welS8NQ[/ame]


----------



## oldognewtrick

I think Frodo went to work, somebody has to make some money to pay taxes so the Fed can continue to spend $$$...:wavingflag:


----------



## nealtw

oldognewtrick said:


> I think Frodo went to work, somebody has to make some money to pay taxes so the Fed can continue to spend $$$...:wavingflag:



I was afraid it was something I said.:trophy:


----------



## oldognewtrick

nealtw said:


> I was afraid it was something I said.:trophy:



I'm pretty sure he really doesn't care much about that....I may be wrong though


----------



## frodo

why yes i did post the list, and that list might have a few B's   and H's  in it but no where does it say Bush       and you know very well what we are discussing.

bernie's proposed tax increase is 8%  for middle class. 


a guy making  $100.00 k    pays 28% fica, 7.9% ss  that is 36%   bernie wanted to add  aprox  8% = 52%    

to pay for college,medicare for everybody and moe gimmie gimmie stuff





damn it.....gif is not working


----------



## nealtw

Pay attention I will type slow so you can keep up.
I did not bring up welfare, a state issue,
I did not post a page dated 2008, so you invoked Bush.
Last I heard Bernie is not the problem you have.


----------



## Chris

You got me Neal I'm gonna vote hillary now, she will do so much better for me and my family. I'm sure I will keep more of my hard earned money. I won't have to worry about as much because I will know my government is backing me 100%. They won't let me or my business fail. I'm sure my Healthcare costs will go down as well.


----------



## Chris

Really, on a serious note. What will hillary do to help me and my family. Leave out anything about others because at this point I am in it for me and my family not others getting assistance. What has she said she will do to help me, a middle class business owner?


----------



## havasu

I really learning alot about the mindset of some on the other side. Please continue.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> You got me Neal I'm gonna vote hillary now, she will do so much better for me and my family. I'm sure I will keep more of my hard earned money. I won't have to worry about as much because I will know my government is backing me 100%. They won't let me or my business fail. I'm sure my Healthcare costs will go down as well.



Do you really think that, that is what I want you to do.
I would b just is hard on Hillary supporters that come spewing party line crap and one liners. 

You guys don't seem to know why a democracy works, what makes it work or that you don't live in one.

You do not have a parliamentary democracy like we do, where we elect a dictator and the parties yell at each other in the house of commons.

Your system was designed for reasonable people to recognize a problem  and talk it out and solve a problem.

The longer it takes for the people in your country  to fix it the closer you are to electing a Trump or some other dictator type from either side.

I have a special interest in your country, one side of my family came from the south. My family fought the British, my family lost boys on both side of the civil war.

I have not started one of these things and if no one likes my opinion, shut up about it.
.


----------



## bud16415

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEs_TJf6nts[/ame]


----------



## KULTULZ

Chris said:


> I for one don't hate either side and they both have good points, if they could work together that would be great. I am not sure when things changed from promoting yourself to slamming your opponent but it is really annoying. We really don't have much good to say about either and honestly I have no idea how either have made it this far.
> 
> On another note I must be dumb when it comes to how someone is elected, do our votes count for anything at all? I mean all over the news they talk about electoral votes and how if trump doesn't get more he will not be president. If this whole thing is based on electoral votes than why do we bother voting? I remember last election I was on my way to my polling place when they announced Obama as president. I thought to myself how is this possible when not everyone has even voted yet? I think this whole system is rigged and predetermined and bought. The more I look at politics the less I like how this country is run.
> 
> This whole election is two monkeys ****ing a football and we are the football.



 Presidential elections are determined by the Electoral College, not popular votes.

Party primaries are decided by delegates and while they were chosen by popular vote have no duty to vote as they were sent to do. The actual candidates are hand-picked by the political parties. You have no say in that.

Your popular vote is watered down by the dead and illegals voting, no photo ID needed allowing persons (including illegals and felons) to vote more than once and in differing jurisdictions. And on top of all of this you have grand scheme voting fraud, manipulating return results.

Civics was dropped from the educational system years ago and the result(s) is for askew-ed voting results. It is a dumbed down populace. Most haven't the faintest idea how their government functions.

Your Representative Republic is not what most thinks it is.


----------



## KULTULZ

nealtw said:


> I thinks Trumps great would have been back when only white male land owners voted and he would have won.



Are you saying Trump is racist? Better yet, exactly what is it you are you implying...


----------



## havasu

This electoral college crap is 250 years old. Long before telegraphs, telephones, cars and planes. It is an unnecessary evil which we really need to get away from.


----------



## oldognewtrick

havasu said:


> I really learning alot about the mindset of some on the other side. Please continue.



Yes, it is rather entertaining...as long as we keep it civil. Everyone has a right to an opinion, let's please respect that.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> Do you really think that, that is what I want you to do.
> I would b just is hard on Hillary supporters that come spewing party line crap and one liners.
> 
> You guys don't seem to know why a democracy works, what makes it work or that you don't live in one.
> 
> You do not have a parliamentary democracy like we do, where we elect a dictator and the parties yell at each other in the house of commons.
> 
> Your system was designed for reasonable people to recognize a problem  and talk it out and solve a problem.
> 
> The longer it takes for the people in your country  to fix it the closer you are to electing a Trump or some other dictator type from either side.
> 
> I have a special interest in your country, one side of my family came from the south. My family fought the British, my family lost boys on both side of the civil war.
> 
> I have not started one of these things and if no one likes my opinion, shut up about it.
> .



So what are we supposed to do as citizens of the United States of America? Are we supposed to just not vote and hope that people wake up and work together?


----------



## zannej

My thing is, I don't believe that Trump would follow through on any of his promises. He was a Democrat and good friend to Hillary and Bill for many many years and all of a sudden he changes his stance and starts saying things that make him sound nutso to the point that it is scaring many people in to voting for Hillary.

I'm not saying that he can't change his mind on things (Lincoln used to think slavery was fine but after he saw how slaves were treated first-hand he changed his mind), but it just seems rather convenient. My personal suspicion is that he started out intending to get people to vote for Hillary and never expected to get as far in the race as he did but once he did, he decided to see it all the way through. I don't trust him.

I also don't trust Hillary. She's a lying, sociopathic piece of excrement who would probably sell her mother to the highest bidder. All she cares about is her own ego and personal gain.

I'm not voting for either one of them. I'm just going to have to pick someone from one of the smaller parties.
The ones that will be on ballots in my area:
Jill Stein/Ajamu Baraka (Green)
Gary Johnson/Bill Weld (Libertarian)
Darrell Lane Castle/Scott Bradley (Constitution - listed as Other)
Evan McMullin/Nathan Johnson (Courage, Character, Service - listed as Other)[1]
Laurence Kotlikoff/Edward Lea (It's our Children - listed as Other)
Tom Hoefling/Steve Schulin (Life, Family, Constitution - listed as Other)
Princes Jacob/Milton Fambro (Loyal, Trustworthy, Compassion - listed as Other)
Gloria Estela La Riva/Eugene Puryear (Socialism and Liberation - listed as Other)
Jerry White/Niles Niemuth (Socialism, Equality, Anti-War - listed as Other)
Alyson Kennedy/Osborne Hart (Socialist Workers - listed as Other)
Chris Keniston/Deacon Taylor (Veterans - listed as Other)
(list was copied and pasted from a website about who is on the ballot in my state-- so I did not choose the order)

Just not sure which one of them. But no way in hell am I voting for Trump or Hillary.

Anyway, I found this amusing:


----------



## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> Are you saying Trump is racist? Better yet, exactly what is it you are you implying...



Listen to 24 of his speeches, you don't need to find emails to find what he really thinks. He constantly says different things to different people and then denies saying things. You choose, he is dangerously stupid, or dangerously crafty.

Middle east, you choose, blow them to hell, send in troops with some sort of plan, leave it to Russia.

Pull troops out of foreign countries, does he know why they are there.

Remove regulations from banking, you have seen that movie

Step away from Nato 

Start a trade war while tightening  the boarders.

Build more nukes

Increase the size of the spending or upgrading equipment or something in the military.

Fix the inner cities, with out saying what that means.

I don't know if he is a racist but he spews enough garbage to give permission to give anyone that feels like that to come out of the woodwork.

Political correctness is nothing more than tool to use to educate the people and mostly the children that certain things hurt people.
We find out what hurts people because they tell us so and if we care about hurting other people we change the language we use to protect every ones right to live peacefully.
The permission he has given himself and anyone else to ignore that has alone backed up your country 50 or 60 years.

Everyone complains about executive orders, he promises to match Obama on day one. BTW the only illegal order is the one that is turned over by the courts, or doesn't the constitution count.

If the constitution counts  Bill was acquitted  by the senate *I think*
The very best have tried to find something on Hillary, they are very inept or there is no there there.
I think she is guilty of politics but last I heard, not a crime as such.

Who, asks the Russian to help with the election and then gets it. Trump 

If you don't find all this scary I suggest you go and read some speeches by Hitler and Mussolini.

You people are not choosing who is the best candidate. You are voting to save our country as you know it. Unless you don't believe anything he said.
If that can make sense.


----------



## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEs_TJf6nts



Great video, but exactly would he have you do. Just change the words
You want to collect taxes you have to follow the money.


----------



## nealtw

havasu said:


> This electoral college crap is 250 years old. Long before telegraphs, telephones, cars and planes. It is an unnecessary evil which we really need to get away from.



In the parliamentary system each riding elects a member of parliament and each of those has a vote for PM. When yours was designed they would have sent someone to carry a letter in person to be counted, or just have him report the results.


----------



## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> Presidential elections are determined by the Electoral College, not popular votes.
> 
> Party primaries are decided by delegates and while they were chosen by popular vote have no duty to vote as they were sent to do. The actual candidates are hand-picked by the political parties. You have no say in that.
> 
> Your popular vote is watered down by the dead and illegals voting, no photo ID needed allowing persons (including illegals and felons) to vote more than once and in differing jurisdictions. And on top of all of this you have grand scheme voting fraud, manipulating return results.
> 
> Civics was dropped from the educational system years ago and the result(s) is for askew-ed voting results. It is a dumbed down populace. Most haven't the faintest idea how their government functions.
> 
> Your Representative Republic is not what most thinks it is.



Popular vote does not work and you founding fathers were smart to recognize that.

Suspected fraud would be more to the point.
Actually proven was something like 31 cases in I billion votes. Some one actually counted them.

The dumbed down part goes along with party membership, no one has to think or research or think, just vote for who ever the party puts up there.


----------



## nealtw

zannej said:


> My thing is, I don't believe that Trump would follow through on any of his promises. He was a Democrat and good friend to Hillary and Bill for many many years and all of a sudden he changes his stance and starts saying things that make him sound nutso to the point that it is scaring many people in to voting for Hillary.
> 
> I'm not saying that he can't change his mind on things (Lincoln used to think slavery was fine but after he saw how slaves were treated first-hand he changed his mind), but it just seems rather convenient. My personal suspicion is that he started out intending to get people to vote for Hillary and never expected to get as far in the race as he did but once he did, he decided to see it all the way through. I don't trust him.
> 
> I also don't trust Hillary. She's a lying, sociopathic piece of excrement who would probably sell her mother to the highest bidder. All she cares about is her own ego and personal gain.
> 
> I'm not voting for either one of them. I'm just going to have to pick someone from one of the smaller parties.
> The ones that will be on ballots in my area:
> Jill Stein/Ajamu Baraka (Green)
> Gary Johnson/Bill Weld (Libertarian)
> Darrell Lane Castle/Scott Bradley (Constitution - listed as Other)
> Evan McMullin/Nathan Johnson (Courage, Character, Service - listed as Other)[1]
> Laurence Kotlikoff/Edward Lea (It's our Children - listed as Other)
> Tom Hoefling/Steve Schulin (Life, Family, Constitution - listed as Other)
> Princes Jacob/Milton Fambro (Loyal, Trustworthy, Compassion - listed as Other)
> Gloria Estela La Riva/Eugene Puryear (Socialism and Liberation - listed as Other)
> Jerry White/Niles Niemuth (Socialism, Equality, Anti-War - listed as Other)
> Alyson Kennedy/Osborne Hart (Socialist Workers - listed as Other)
> Chris Keniston/Deacon Taylor (Veterans - listed as Other)
> (list was copied and pasted from a website about who is on the ballot in my state-- so I did not choose the order)
> 
> Just not sure which one of them. But no way in hell am I voting for Trump or Hillary.
> 
> Anyway, I found this amusing:



The party for the most part said nothing when Trump became a birther, they left the door open because it helped them short term. Like that was good for the country.

Slavery was already over, Britain was blocking slave ships as they had got to their new position 50 years earlier. Or there abouts.

Lincoln was not trying to stop slavery in the south he blocked slaves from being sold into the territories. It was all about the rich white guys.


----------



## Chris

So Neal, what do you think we should do this election time? Should we vote? should we not? Who do you think has the right idea for our country?


----------



## slownsteady

frodo said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/01/25/us/20090126-welfare-table.html?_r=0


Nice try Frodo, but that chart is for 2007-2008. A long time ago and the country was just falling into the Great Recession.
Got something more recent?


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> So Neal, what do you think we should do this election time? Should we vote? should we not? Who do you think has the right idea for our country?



What I would suggest is burn your party membership and be a qualified decision maker. I have only stated thing for you to think about. it is up to you to figure out weather I am blowing wind or there is a real danger.

Some one earlier asked what people in other countries think. It would be silly for me to attempt to answer that.

I can look at the worst case scenario 
Climate change, the whole world is looking at it, it sure sounds important to me.
There should be a lot of money to be made there even if you don't believe.

If you jump off the world trade market, news flash the world doesn't stop.

Remove forces from the east China has a free hand, to deal with all those ex allies.
Let Russia rebuild the Soviet Union.

Let Europe fall completely apart under the stress of more and more refugees.

Your country has done good punishing other country's for not playing the game politely, soon you will find out what that looks like from the other side.

How long will US money be King as the monetary system falls apart.

Do your home work make a decision, it's all on you.


----------



## Chris

Here is one from 2012

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2014/acs/acsbr13-13.pdf


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Here is one from 2012
> 
> https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2014/acs/acsbr13-13.pdf



At a quick glance it looks a lot better than 2008, you should study that.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> What I would suggest is burn your party membership and be a qualified decision maker. I have only stated thing for you to think about. it is up to you to figure out weather I am blowing wind or there is a real danger.
> 
> Some one earlier asked what people in other countries think. It would be silly for me to attempt to answer that.
> 
> I can look at the worst case scenario
> Climate change, the whole world is looking at it, it sure sounds important to me.
> There should be a lot of money to be made there even if you don't believe.
> 
> If you jump off the world trade market, news flash the world doesn't stop.
> 
> Remove forces from the east China has a free hand, to deal with all those ex allies.
> Let Russia rebuild the Soviet Union.
> 
> Let Europe fall completely apart under the stress of more and more refugees.
> 
> Your country has done good punishing other country's for not playing the game politely, soon you will find out what that looks like from the other side.
> 
> How long will US money be King as the monetary system falls apart.
> 
> Do your home work make a decision, it's all on you.




You didn't offer any real substance on what one should do?

 I started my whole process with no party affiliation and ended up on the conservative side for the most part.

 There are good point from both sides. I am always open to hearing about the other side yet when I bring up facts that I have researched you tell me I am just repeating talking points and I hate to say it but you are doing the exact same thing but only from the opposite sides point of view.

I agree Climate change or global warming or whatever it is called this year is a great place to get rich. The dinosaurs should have thought about that millions of years ago in the ice age or when this place was hot because the climate just keeps on changing. I wish I could figure out a way to capitalize on it.

World trade will always be here but it would be nice to have more stuff made in America and we could sustain ourselves a little better. The unions and taxes did a good job of pushing all that away. 

I can't comment on Europe and the fighting because I don't know enough about it, I do know war is money and it is how things have been done for a very very long time whether right or wrong.

I assume US money will stay being King for some time yet I really don't know. We seem to be a pretty strong country no matter how you look at it. We just are not as tough as we used to be.


When you really think about it we have two choices for our next leader, Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. We don't know what either one of them will do for us and we won't know until they are in office. None of what they said they will do because they still have a government full of people to work with, they can't just march in and start barking orders, it doesn't work that way. We can base our choice off what we think they will do or off of what they have done for us but we still don't know what will happen. I will vote against Hillary for just one reason and one reason alone that personally affects me, I am an avid gun collector and gun owner. If she gets elected there is a strong chance many of my guns will become scary and illegal to own. That one reason is enough for me to vote against her. As I see it I may not be voting for Trump but I am voting against Hillary. Like I have always said I vote for what will affect me and my family personally first, I will care about global warming and all the other crap second.

 I will also always vote to not raise taxes no matter what they are for. We all pay enough for our government to run smoothly if they knew how to run it, It sure would be nice if an actual businessman ran for president, someone that knows how to not overspend.

There is another reason I will vote against Hillary, she has a proven record of getting paid for favors, she has scandal after scandal, so many that nobody cares anymore. She has proven she is not trustworthy. Would you want a known criminal to run your country? Now I know she is not a criminal by definition but there are people in prison for doing the same exact things she has done, just because she got off doesn't mean her hands are clean.


----------



## slownsteady

I have become more skeptical of the two-party system as i have aged. It should more accurately be called the Two-Club system. 
We pick sides in this country like it is a football game and not like it is our government; we root for people by label and not by idea. And we use the parties as a substitute for studying the issues.

Voting for a third party is tempting, but I know and can find out very little about anyone below the first two; the Greens and the Libertarians. (and if I took the time to study those guys out now, i would be missing all this fun ).

Donald is a bad idea any way I look at it. He's a closed book with no true arrow north. Words mean nothing to him, and his actions are unpredictable, beyond his greed and narcissism. 
Hillary is not much better as  a candidate, except her track record is public.

Given a choice between the two; I would say punt (notice the football reference? ) and not take a chance on Donald. At least Hillary is the status quo until someone better comes along.


----------



## nealtw

That does seem to be the American way. This has been more fun than talking to the TV


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> At a quick glance it looks a lot better than 2008, you should study that.



Some have come down some have gone up. By 2012 the economy was in much better shape than 08.  Don't worry we will fall again in another few years. Maybe one day people will learn how much they can afford to spend. I remember back in 06 I was looking at buying a home and I only wanted a 30 year fixed rate loan and I could not get one. They only had those stupid loans that got people in trouble with. Interest only or 0% for five years and the scheme was "You will have a better job in five years and you can just refi". And of course they don't teach people how to be money smart in school so all the lemmings went out and bought 500,000 dollar homes while making 12 bucks an hour without even doing any sort of simple math to see if they could ever afford it first. The banks told them they could and they believed it. I backed out of buying a house at that point because I spent 30 seconds with a calculator to see if I could afford it after that five year interest only payment. If other did the same we would not have been in the perdicament we were in at least not to the scale it was.

It's a pretty simple thing to do, live within your means and buy a damn calculator.


----------



## Chris

slownsteady said:


> I have become more skeptical of the two-party system as i have aged. It should more accurately be called the Two-Club system.
> We pick sides in this country like it is a football game and not like it is our government; we root for people by label and not by idea. And we use the parties as a substitute for studying the issues.
> 
> Voting for a third party is tempting, but I know and can find out very little about anyone below the first two; the Greens and the Libertarians. (and if I took the time to study those guys out now, i would be missing all this fun ).
> 
> Donald is a bad idea any way I look at it. He's a closed book with no true arrow north. Words mean nothing to him, and his actions are unpredictable, beyond his greed and narcissism.
> Hillary is not much better as  a candidate, except her track record is public.
> 
> Given a choice between the two; I would say punt (notice the football reference? ) and not take a chance on Donald. At least Hillary is the status quo until someone better comes along.




I agree with a lot you have said, Hillary will just be another 4 or 8 years of where we are currently and Donald is a gamble. If the two parties could forget the small stuff like guns and abortion and focus on the larger things they could probably get a lot more votes. I would be ok with another Liberal president if not for the things I stated in my last post.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Some have come down some have gone up. By 2012 the economy was in much better shape than 08.  Don't worry we will fall again in another few years. Maybe one day people will learn how much they can afford to spend. I remember back in 06 I was looking at buying a home and I only wanted a 30 year fixed rate loan and I could not get one. They only had those stupid loans that got people in trouble with. Interest only or 0% for five years and the scheme was "You will have a better job in five years and you can just refi". And of course they don't teach people how to be money smart in school so all the lemmings went out and bought 500,000 dollar homes while making 12 bucks an hour without even doing any sort of simple math to see if they could ever afford it first. The banks told them they could and they believed it. I backed out of buying a house at that point because I spent 30 seconds with a calculator to see if I could afford it after that five year interest only payment. If other did the same we would not have been in the perdicament we were in at least not to the scale it was.
> 
> 
> It's a pretty simple thing to do, live within your means and buy a damn calculator.



That is what caused the depression and the recession, there are laws back in place so it can't happen but some one wants to repeal that. So hold on.

You have a funny set of rules,

Absolutely trust the party but it's the peoples fault because they trusted the bank


----------



## frodo

if you are thinking about voting for Hillary, think about this.

What the AFL-CIO says about NAFTA and Trump

From the AFL-CIO website in 2013 concerning NAFTA.

As the NAFTA experience demonstrates, the theory that &#8220;free trade agreements&#8221; (FTAs) result in U.S. export growth is demonstrably false. In fact, as Public Citizen recently pointed out, U.S. export growth to FTA partners was actually slower than to non-FTA partners over the past decade. In 1993, adjusting for inflation, the United States had a $2.5 billion trade surplus with Mexico and a $29.1 billion trade deficit with Canada. By 2012, the combined NAFTA trade deficit was $181 billion. Manufacturing and service exports to Mexico and Canada in the years since NAFTA was enacted have both grown at below half the rate prior to the agreement.

The Economic Policy Institute estimates that, as of 2010, the trade deficit with Mexico alone displaced 682,900 U.S. jobs. Companies that publicly committed to hire more workers and increase exports during NAFTA negotiations broke their promises, outsourced labor and shuttered worksites. Many of the jobs lost were in industries like manufacturing that, on average, pay higher wages and have more comprehensive benefits than the average job.

And it goes on and on about how bad NAFTA is, and destroying jobs, and lowering wages etc etc. 

AFL-CIO on Trump and NAFTA renegotiation in 2016. 

"This year, America&#8217;s labor movement has unleashed the most comprehensive and sophisticated electoral program in our history. It&#8217;s working. We are cutting through Trump&#8217;s bluster and getting to the heart of his record. Trump may be loud, but we are clear. Since June, Trump&#8217;s support among union members in Ohio has dropped 12 points. Let me repeat that. Trump&#8217;s support among union members in Ohio has dropped 12 points in the last three months. You did that! Donald Trump is in a nosedive because of the conversations each of you are having."

The leader of the nation&#8217;s largest labor union thinks Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump&#8217;s position on trade is a positive, but said the candidate is a &#8220;fraud&#8221; and &#8220;unfit to be president.&#8221;

AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka said he&#8217;s happy that both major party presidential candidates reject the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal, but he doesn&#8217;t trust Mr. Trump to stick to that position.

&#8220;Anytime a politician is on the same side of an issue as us, we think it&#8217;s a positive,&#8221; Mr. Trumka said Thursday at an event hosted by the Christian Science Monitor in Washington, D.C. But &#8220;Donald Trump talking about being against trade deals is sort of laughable.&#8221;

The AFL-CIO helped to create those trade deals by backing the Democrats in 1994. 

From 1993.

After 12 years of insult from Republican Administrations, the last thing unions needed was a political defeat inflicted by a Democratic President they helped elect. But that's what labor got with the passage of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). Now, union leaders and the Democratic Party find themselves wondering how to bridge the rift between them.
In truth, the two sides have been drifting apart for years. A growing number of Democrats, led by President Clinton, have focused on the competitive demands of a global economy. Organized labor, meanwhile, has tried to hold back the tide. The NAFTA fight only highlighted the schism. "It's clear that the union movement does have to go through dramatic change," says Richard W. Hurd, professor at Cornell University's School of Industrial & Labor Relations. "Rather than protecting the current system, they need to respond to the changing economy."

So in 1994 to respond to the changing economy, the AFL-CIO backed the Democrats. A million jobs gone since, they are backing Clinton 6-4 over Trump knowing full well TPP is going to be fully enacted without revision. 

When the TPP was first released, it was 12 pages long, I read every bit of it and posted highlights here. Everyone here...was right. The original proposal had nothing in it but positive for the American worker. When the final revision was released last November, I just searched through, nothing that was in the original proposal was in the 2000 pages, if it was I couldn't find it. 

In 1993 the AFL-CIO leadership was told they did not want to make an enemy like Clinton, so they went from fighting against NAFTA to supporting the Democrats. Now, they will get a renewed NAFTA, and they will get the TPP. 

Oh well, that is their jobs they are voting to send overseas.


----------



## KULTULZ

nealtw said:


> Lincoln was not trying to stop slavery in the south he blocked slaves from being sold into the territories. It was all about the rich white guys.



!!! BINGO !!!

And the War Between The States was not over slavery but state rights. Slavery was instilled by big business of the day.

More need to pick up a non-corrected history text and read about Lincoln.

Now the Brits intercepting slave ships at sea. That was piracy. They had no just cause. They got their t!ts in a wringer doing similar things to American shipping earlier and the result was the War of 1812.

But they surely enjoyed that Southern cotton over there now didn't they?


----------



## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> !!! BINGO !!!
> 
> And the War Between The States was not over slavery but state rights. Slavery was instilled by big business of the day.
> 
> More need to pick up a non-corrected history text and read about Lincoln.
> 
> Now the Brits intercepting slave ships at sea. That was piracy. They had no just cause. They got their t!ts in a wringer doing similar things to American shipping earlier and the result was the War of 1812.
> 
> But they surely enjoyed that Southern cotton over there now didn't they?



No different than us buying stuff made in slave like factories today.


----------



## nealtw

Well boys this has been more than fun but I am going to take my ball and go home now.

PS I would like to see Trump take on five dems at the same time for two days and stay polite for the most part and make a real attempt to stay away from one liners even has the other side is all over the place with them.


----------



## KULTULZ

The United States is in an unique situation as it is presently the only power that can project control over the rest of the world, either militarily or financially. 

This is because WWII destroyed the rest of the world. It is too costly to project military force around the world as once done.

If there was another world power that could project the same influences, this country would be in real trouble. It hasn't the manufacturing base to support a major war where sea lanes could be cut. That is why we have foreign aid, to buy support.


----------



## KULTULZ

nealtw said:


> No different than us buying stuff made in slave like factories today.



:agree:

Or working immigrants and/or illegals here for reduced wage and benefits...


----------



## slownsteady

nealtw said:


> That does seem to be the American way. This has been more fun than talking to the TV


When the TV answers back, then it is considered a problem.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> That is what caused the depression and the recession, there are laws back in place so it can't happen but some one wants to repeal that. So hold on.
> 
> You have a funny set of rules,
> 
> Absolutely trust the party but it's the peoples fault because they trusted the bank



Who ever said I absolutely trust any party? Just because I am voting for them doesn't mean I am putting full trust in them. 

I trust the banks about as much. I was more getting at if people were a little more involved and not believing everything they hear things would be very different. Remember banks are a business.


----------



## zepper

havasu said:


> He's got my vote but unfortunately he kissed a girl 10 years ago...



Apparently he did a lot more than that. And dang, if it weren't for those recordings of him actually _describing_ what he thought of women and how they should be treated, we could probably have found a way to discredit all these babes coming forward to tell their so-called "stories".

You can bet the Democrats are behind most of this. They probably tracked down all these victims and convinced them to wait till the election was closer before going public... Talk about sneaky!!

Personally, it doesn't bother me that Donald has no respect for women or their personal boundaries. Heck, for all we know, Hillary's been going around groping guys, and they've just been too embarrassed to step forward. Of course, some of them may have _enjoyed_ it, and were even disappointed she didn't do it again. 

If that's true, it needs to be revealed. Think of what a boost it'd give Donald's faltering campaign if some of these guys appeared in the media and told Donald's victims not to be such whiners!

It would also remind everybody what a "guy" thing the presidency is. I mean, if women like these can't shrug off a little personal violation, what would they do when something _really_ serious happened, like a nuclear showdown? I'm telling you, the whole thing could be turned around to our advantage. It could be like the '50s again, when women knew their places and just took what was given to them... Remember how fun that was? Man, what happened, anyway?



havasu said:


> ...so he is not qualified to be our president according to the millions of lemmings who think it is ok that Killary's hubby shoved cigars up women...



I'm not sure, but I don't think Hillary was actually involved in that. But I'm with you&#8212;there are a lot more possibilities if, rather than focusing on the candidates themselves, we can dig up some tabloid-style gossip about candidates' _friends and relatives_.

For example, I've heard that one of Hillary's former hairdressers, a guy named Pierre, secretly dresses up like Sesame Street characters&#8212;of both genders!! Someone just needs to sneak into his house and get some pictures of him doing this. Imagine the devastating effect something like that could have on Hillary's reputation!

Unfortunately, the things Donald did to those women were, technically, crimes, which probably made them more smug about speaking up. But there must be lots of people Hillary has wronged in other ways, for example:

&#8226; People whom she's left inadequate tips
&#8226; People her drivers have cut off in traffic
&#8226; People she's bumped into without saying "excuse me"
&#8226; People who've invited her over for dinner and been told she was too busy

It'll just take some extra effort finding people like that and convincing them to hold press conferences. Let's get busy, before it's too late!!


----------



## slownsteady

A couple of spare thoughts:
the banks are a great example of unregulated business and how that can upset an entire country (world!!)
In this global economy, we will all have to arrive at the same level before things can improve. Unfortunately for us, we have the most to lose.
There has never been a way to control the growth or movement of big business since we have learned to cross oceans. The only entity with enough power to do that is a huge and powerful government. If the gov't  (gubmint, as frodo would say) steps out of the way, be prepared for the return of "corporate kingdoms". Ask Eastern Indians and Africans about that one.
I'm sure no one likes to see a free ride by some people at your expense, but think about life in a country without a safety net. Not everyone in poverty deserves to be there. Health, lack of opportunity, unfortunate circumstances may be the reasons why they are there.


----------



## zepper

nealtw said:


> Well boys this has been more than fun but I am going to take my ball and go home... PS I would like to see Trump take on five dems at the same time for two days and stay polite for the most part...



Yeah, it's really too bad he's such a jerk. If he could just keep that under control till he was elected, then he could act however he wanted to. Someone needed to tell him how important it was to at least act like a decent, intelligent, moral person when you're running for office. But no.


----------



## havasu

SNS, I thought that was funny! 

Zepper, it is about time you joined us in here. You seem like a great fit for us misfits!


----------



## Chris

..................


----------



## havasu

Hmmm, I'm missing the above joke.

Wait a second, seems November 8th is our voting day, so now I get it!


----------



## Chris

The 9th is for voting for Hillary, look it up. It keep arguments away from polling places.


----------



## havasu

Whatever works to balance the odds.


----------



## rbm328

me personally, i'm tired of congress and the prez doing EVERYTHING to feathering their nests and letting us working class pick up the crumbs.   yes, hes a businessman and yes, hes for himself, but i do believe that he is ALSO for this country and making it great again. for you older people (me too), remember when the rest of the world looked up to us? 

as for hillary, did you read yesterday, on just how fowl mouthed she is?  and she treats the military and security staff like they are her servants. 

THAT is why i'm voting for trump.


----------



## bud16415

The person we should all be looking at is Tim Kaine. So far he has been flying below the radar. He held a public rally a couple days ago in Fla and only 30 people showed up. 

I personally believe and there is some evidence to back it up that Hillary is in very poor health and I doubt she will make it as president all that long into her first term before turning it over to Kaine. She will be able to push her agenda as long as she can and then step down being able to say she made it to the top. 

No one is looking at Kaine and he is a heartbeat away, actually 9 out of 10 people don&#8217;t even know his name when asked. 

Google (Hillary Clinton health) and see what you think for yourself. I know she and Bill say she is in perfect health and they would never tell a lie or cover anything up so it is most likely just rumors.   :2cents:


----------



## Chris

Nobody seems to care that she is in poor health or anything else about her. The media wants everyone to know how horrible a person Trump is but refuses to even question hillary on anything.


----------



## frodo

Chris said:


> Nobody seems to care that she is in poor health or anything else about her. The media wants everyone to know how horrible a person Trump is but refuses to even question hillary on anything.




the press gives her a pass on all the negative issues,

Have you heard about this ?  Obama's administration has been caught 
putting muslims into key positions..

http://www.wnd.com/2016/10/obama-dumped-on-christian-arabs-while-helping-muslims/


----------



## bud16415

Chris said:


> Nobody seems to care that she is in poor health or anything else about her. The media wants everyone to know how horrible a person Trump is but refuses to even question hillary on anything.



I fully agree with you Chris. For what little my opinion is worth.
The playbook says control the media you control the people. It is all smoke and mirrors and I would even venture to say that the little counter media that exists is allowed to be there because it gives an outlet to people to feel they have a chance and a way to leak things out in advance to lessen the blow when it really has to come out. 

People will always look past the truth when the counter narrative is carefully crafted and placed in front of them. The people of Germany didnt just follow Hitler and support him, they loved him.   


I hear a lot this time around people saying they are going to vote for the lesser of two evils. I dont see it that way what we are really voting for is the lesser of two knows. People that are going to vote for Clinton have resolved themselves to believe what they have been told and somehow see her experience as a real thing not a set of staged events leading to her being elected in 2008. Someone got in the way of that plan and gave her the opportunity to post one more accomplishment to her resume for 2016 try. She has been in the political public eye a very long time and no matter what goes wrong all is forgiven. Look how fast Sanders flipped around. What would cause a guy to do that? 

Trump has been in the public eye equally as long and no one cared about anything he did or said up till the point he won the nomination. Then all of a sudden he was evil. 

The media made a big deal out of the fact he wouldnt say once the election is over he would accept the results like Sanders did so well. To me what he didnt say said more than what he could have said. It said to me he actually believes the things he is saying and believes them to be truths and right. A real person feels that way about their beliefs.


----------



## oldognewtrick

frodo said:


> the press gives her a pass on all the negative issues,
> 
> Have you heard about this ?  Obama's administration has been caught
> putting muslims into key positions..
> 
> http://www.wnd.com/2016/10/obama-dumped-on-christian-arabs-while-helping-muslims/



What about the reason they tried to hide Bengasi was they were running illegal guns to the terrorists, heard anything about that? What about the dead ambassador, she got a pass on that, besides, what difference does it make. Make no mistake, I'm NO trump supporter, but I am against Hillary!

Read it for yourselves...

https://www.google.com/search?q=ben...ft:en-US:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&rlz=&gws_rd=ssl


----------



## bud16415

I don&#8217;t need a million reasons to not vote for someone I only need one even though I have a million. I watched the ceremony live on TV when it was going on (the first video) the parents of the dead were there and for some reason she felt it wasn&#8217;t enough to just say how sorry she was for what happened and condolences to the family as it was within a couple weeks of the election. Her and her boss cooked up a story and told a lie to the parents of the dead. I knew I was being played the second I heard it. I even went on line and found the movie she was talking about and watched about 2 minutes of it. It bought them some time at the expense of the parents and without it Mitt Romney would likely be president today Trump would be doing his TV show and people would be saying Hillary who? But she said it and it was a bold face calculated lie with a purpose. 

Looking back on it, it was the worst thing I have ever heard or seen done knowing all the facts that came out later. The second video shows how not even the best can pin them down as she can spin a yarn as fast as her lips can move. 

I have listened to all the Trump tapes and I wouldn&#8217;t be proud of them if I was him. He got caught being a crude guy trying to impress some idiot reporter. I have to say it isn&#8217;t the first time I have heard such things. I hear similar every day in the break room at work or on the golf course or bar. What he did wasn&#8217;t to try and talk his way out of it though. He took his lumps and admitted he was stupid. 

That&#8217;s the difference between the two IMO, and why I will vote for anyone but Clinton unless the choice actually did something worse. 

 [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSooz2wXpes[/ame]

  [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOjX-o9axmw[/ame]


----------



## frodo

texas and florida reporting unprecedented number of trump voters turning out


----------



## Chris

I'm hearing that in a lot of places, hopefully it turns out good.


----------



## havasu

I just hope the millions of furious, quiet, gun loving and honest citizens come out of the woodwork and place a vote next to Trump. I am placing a vote to tell the government that I am tired of this politically correct, gotta take care of everyone (except for the Americans) bullshit.

sorry for cussing. I'm just done with this stuff


----------



## bud16415

That&#8217;s kind of what I was saying. Each person won&#8217;t be voting based on every issue. All it takes is one thing seeing as they are so far apart on every issue. I watched a breakdown of the polls and if men only vote Trump wins by 40% if women only vote Clinton wins by 40% or something like that. If blacks only vote Clinton wins by 90%. Gun owners Trump wins by 90%. 

I know people that will vote for Clinton only because they say it is time for a woman. People vote for the stupidest of reasons. It will boil down to will more people vote that want what they have now thinking it will last forever. Or do people really feel things are going in the wrong direction and realize it can&#8217;t go on forever. The counter side of it is some people think it is getting better and Trump is going to make it worse. The numbers and the facts say no but their personal feeling for whatever reason tells them yes. 

I said after the last election we had hit the tipping point and most likely will never tip back. After this election I hope I&#8217;m wrong but will know for sure if we are tipped forever.


----------



## havasu

IMHO, a women who votes for Clinton only because she is a woman , and nothing else, is very narrow minded, just like a black man who voted for Obammie because of his skin color. This was the root of the problem 8 years ago, and will probably be our reason for another 8 horrible years. I really believe that unless we completely change the voting, will will continue down a road of no return.


----------



## Chris

Don't forget how successful Obamacare is and how it is already a mortgage payment and is also going up this year. Me and my family will be paying the fine and back to cash for the doctor like I used to do.


----------



## havasu

...but please don't forget Chris, that POS deadbeat who would rather smoke blunts and drink his Colt 45, while tending to his 15 kids from his 15 girlfriends rather than actually work, will now be able to get free medical help for his emphysema and his failing liver, all because of your generosity.


----------



## Chris

Not for lo, I will do like most other young healthy Americans and opt out. That is why the rates are going up anyway, because they need every young person to sign up for it to work but the costs are far too high for any young person to afford. A Failure from the start. Good Idea but a failure.


----------



## Chris

Did you hear about that idiot that broke up Trumps star in Hollywood? Why is it when Liberals don't agree with people it ends in violence?

I don't go to the welfare office and beat up the receptionist or burn it down because I don't agree with it.


----------



## slownsteady

Chris said:


> Did you hear about that idiot that broke up Trumps star in Hollywood? Why is it when Liberals don't agree with people it ends in violence?
> 
> I don't go to the welfare office and beat up the receptionist or burn it down because I don't agree with it.


And who is shooting down OB-Gyns???


----------



## slownsteady

On both sides, we tend to ignore the facts that don't fit our opinions


----------



## Chris

slownsteady said:


> And who is shooting down OB-Gyns???



No idea as I don't see any of that happening on my local news. I would say it happens but several fold from the liberal side than the conservative.


----------



## Chris

slownsteady said:


> On both sides, we tend to ignore the facts that don't fit our opinions



I don't ignore but I don't see much of it if any around here. Probably because I am in California where there are fewer Conservatives to commit crimes?


----------



## frodo

just to lighten this up a little bit,   is that a bee in your bonnet?  

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEteC_M1154"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEteC_M1154[/ame]


----------



## nealtw

Vote early, vote often, buy a trump towel.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> Vote early, vote often, buy a trump towel.



Everyone needs a towel. Capitalism.


----------



## Chris

So I just heard today that the FBI is reopening the Clinton email investigation. How do you think this will effect her chances at becoming president? Are you even allowed to be elected if you have the possibility of going to prison?


----------



## bud16415

Chris said:


> So I just heard today that the FBI is reopening the Clinton email investigation. How do you think this will effect her chances at becoming president? Are you even allowed to be elected if you have the possibility of going to prison?




All Obama has to do is pardon her. He plans on doing 10,000 whats one more going to hurt. 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/08/obama-just-freed-another-214-inmates


----------



## Chris

But can you pardon someone and then she be elected? Really why are we even discussing this? If someone is being looked at by the FBI do we really want them running our country?


----------



## nealtw

The FBI has to cover their *** even if they just found another period after saying they were done.

When does you constitution count.
Investigated,
charges
trial
verdict

As they are both being investigated and neither are guilty until found guilty.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> The FBI has to cover their *** even if they just found another period after saying they were done.
> 
> When does you constitution count.
> Investigated,
> charges
> trial
> verdict
> 
> As they are both being investigated and neither are guilty until found guilty.



What is the FBI investigating Trump for?


----------



## nealtw

I did not say the FBI was.
Do your own homework.


----------



## Chris

I have not seen anything that Trump did while working for our government that was prison worthy?

You might be talking about Trump University which was a flop of a business idea but I don't think he is in line to possibly go to prison over it but who knows.

Do your homework and if you are going to bring things up at least make reference to what you are talking about please, it gets hard to guess what going on in your head.


----------



## frodo

Chris said:


> But can you pardon someone and then she be elected? Really why are we even discussing this? If someone is being looked at by the FBI do we really want them running our country?



obama can not pardon her, she has not ben convicted but he can absolve her of any wrong doing


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> I did not say the FBI was.
> Do your own homework.



When you look at our two candidates in the eye of corruption whether legal or Illegal which in your mind is more of a corrupt person. Lets leave out from both sides personal feelings of how they treat people and things they do in their personal lives, I am just talking about mischievous doings throughout their professional careers. What is your opinion?


----------



## Chris

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QancD31sIJk[/ame]


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> I have not seen anything that Trump did while working for our government that was prison worthy?
> 
> You might be talking about Trump University which was a flop of a business idea but I don't think he is in line to possibly go to prison over it but who knows.
> 
> Do your homework and if you are going to bring things up at least make reference to what you are talking about please, it gets hard to guess what going on in your head.



So we should read your mind to find you only meant crimes that would end in jail time.
As Trump U was in many states why doesn't Obama's Commerce dept. take over, isn't that their job.

Doesn't matter what happens, half the country will not be happy.
The normal is for the new to ignore the old.
Perhaps these people should be acknowledged too.
http://www.warcriminalswatch.org/


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> So we should read your mind to find you only meant crimes that would end in jail time.
> As Trump U was in many states why doesn't Obama's Commerce dept. take over, isn't that their job.
> 
> Doesn't matter what happens, half the country will not be happy.
> The normal is for the new to ignore the old.
> Perhaps these people should be acknowledged too.
> http://www.warcriminalswatch.org/



You said they were both under investigation while we were talking about FBI Investigations and prison, I did not realize we switched over to bad business and moral crimes. My bad but you were confusing me.

I agree half will be unhappy no matter what. In that regard I personally don't get unhappy if a Democrat is in office, I get unhappy if this Democrat is in office.

I agree too that the normal now is for the new to ignore the old.

I sure we should do more about war criminals but right now we need to focus on our election that is happening in a couple weeks. Once that is over than everything else can be taken care of.


----------



## havasu

nealtw said:


> Perhaps these people should be acknowledged too.
> http://www.warcriminalswatch.org/



Sorry Neal, but this is typical democrat BS. Diversion at its best. Just like when Hillary steps on crap and then calls her Carpet Munching buddy Gloria Allhead who announces that Trump kissed a hooker 18 years ago. How dare him!

I just completed reading the 100 biggest Wikileak emails. Hillary should be convicted of treason and hung. Have you actually read the true emails? 

http://www.mostdamagingwikileaks.com/


----------



## Chris

Chris said:


> When you look at our two candidates in the eye of corruption whether legal or Illegal which in your mind is more of a corrupt person. Lets leave out from both sides personal feelings of how they treat people and things they do in their personal lives, I am just talking about mischievous doings throughout their professional careers. What is your opinion?



Anyone else care to answer?


----------



## nealtw

So we know that if Trump wins, he spend his time and your money chasing Clinton to put her in jail.
If Clinton gets elected, impeachment will start as soon as possible spending your money on that, no work gets done.

Your last thought would never happen because it is deemed not good for the country, right or wrong, doesn't look good to the rest of the world.

I don't know how you would decide how to vote if you were not a one issue voter. You did say your toys are your issue.

I lean to the right, but I have never voted with out listening to both sides, not really what the politicians are saying but what the people are saying to them. More than once I have voted against my own interest because of the way the native Canadians are being treated. I disowned a brother for a letter he wrote to a newspaper about that subject.


----------



## havasu

The more I read about the wikileaks, it is apparent what a deplorable person she is. The Secret Service hired to protect her are now demanding they be transferred because of the way they are treated. She has taken millions of money from the same folks who are funding ISIS. She laughs at the Benghazi incident. I am just amazed that the lemmings can overlook all of these facts because someone said the word PUSSY. I really believe there is not a Clinton supporter who is not receiving some sort of financial aid for themselves or their families.

 I'd like THIS answered.


----------



## nealtw

havasu said:


> Sorry Neal, but this is typical democrat BS. Diversion at its best. Just like when Hillary steps on crap and then calls her Carpet Munching buddy Gloria Allhead who announces that Trump kissed a hooker 18 years ago. How dare him!
> 
> I just completed reading the 100 biggest Wikileak emails. Hillary should be convicted of treason and hung. Have you actually read the true emails?
> 
> http://www.mostdamagingwikileaks.com/



I am sure we will hear all about them in the impeachment.

I have not defended Clinton, all I have asked for is proof and apparently that is coming.

This thread started out about Trump not Clinton and with out me there is no opposing view so there is nothing to be learned.

It is just a bunch of guys sitting around drinking beer and either clicking the glasses together or crying in their beer.


----------



## havasu

Apparent, the smoking gun was finally found in guess who's email from a completely separate investigation...

Wiener, yep, Anthony Wiener. Yup, Clinton's Mooselim sidekick's hubby. 

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/Christi...mails-n2238159

There is something really apropos to Clinton being taken down by a Wiener!


----------



## Chris

I don't think Trump will do anything to Clinton if he wins.

Hillary will probably win then get found guilty of those pesky emails and be tossed out and we will have whoever her vice president as president.

My guns are not my only issue but they are a strong one. I am far from a one issue voter like you dream. There are a long list of issues that have convinced me otherwise. You are believing what you want to believe and truly know nothing about me. Try taking a huge part of your everyday livelihood and the person running to be in charge of your country says they will take all that away? Would you want to still support them?

I an a small business owner and Hillary will do much more harm financially to my company than she could ever do to help it. (Look more issues of why I am not voting for her)

Hillary fully supports Obamacare, as a small business owner I can not afford to pay this every month and the same goes for most Americans that don't get it for free. (Another issue for not voting for her)

Hillary will change her mind and do crooked things for cash and is well known for being bought (Another reason I won't vote for her) 

Hillary will lie to you and the very government she is trying to run and has no issue doing so

Hillary has admitted that she flip flops depending on who she talks to. She says what you want to hear, we really don't know where she lies on anything (Another issue for not voting for her)

There are so many more and I can sit here all day telling you them but you will just think I am spouting conservative one liners.


----------



## havasu

Yep, you're racist Chris!

On a side note, there appears to be another car chase currently happening. I got a pic of it...


----------



## Chris

Thats cold!


Has Hillary come out to defend her new batch of emails yet?


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Thats cold!
> 
> 
> Has Hillary come out to defend her new batch of emails yet?


All that any one knows is there are emails,

Prosecuting or defending would have to be BS.


----------



## oldognewtrick

Good golly I can't wait for the next 11 days to get here...&#128012;


----------



## havasu

I know at the third debate, when the emails were brought up, she democratically steered clear of their acknowledgement and then started saying that Trump was the Russian instigator as to why they occurred. She never denied their existence or whether they were fabricated. 

I had a similar situation when I reported a former K-9 officer for his mistreatment of animals. Instead of going after him for the mistreatment, they went after me for starting this investigation. He was never investigated, but they tried to give me 10 days off without pay. I fought the rap, and I won the appeal.


----------



## Chris

Good, bad or indifferent at least it will be over and we can go back to making fun of each other.


----------



## havasu

Hey Tom, since you love guns, you must also be a racist!


----------



## Chris

havasu said:


> I know at the third debate, when the emails were brought up, she democratically steered clear of their acknowledgement and then started saying that Trump was the Russian instigator as to why they occurred. She never denied their existence or whether they were fabricated.
> 
> I had a similar situation when I reported a former K-9 officer for his mistreatment of animals. Instead of going after him for the mistreatment, they went after me for starting this investigation. He was never investigated, but they tried to give me 10 days off without pay. I fought the rap, and I won the appeal.



It's funny how people attack the person reporting and not the person doing the crime. I see it all the time.


----------



## Chris

havasu said:


> Hey Tom, since you love guns, you must also be a racist!



I'm sure he would give them all away to know that no one will have guns to hurt people.....Except criminals.


----------



## havasu

Yeah, honestly, this is really unlike any election I have seen in my 61 years. It is all very polarizing. I hate that this causes hurt feelings just because of one's beliefs. It shouldn't be this way.


----------



## Chris

It shouldn't be that way at all. I am younger but all I see is this country being divided in every way possible. Racially, politically everything.

On a side note I have a good buddy that is hardcore Liberal and we get along great.


----------



## havasu

I do as well. They say left, I say right. They hate cops, I love 'em. We then laugh and have a beer together. Them Buttwiper, me Coors Light, which is just recycled Budweiser.


----------



## oldognewtrick

havasu said:


> Hey Tom, since you love guns, you must also be a racist!




I sold all my guns at the gun show named


----------



## oldognewtrick

havasu said:


> Hey Tom, since you love guns, you must also be a racist!




I sold all my guns at the gun show to a guy named  amed.


----------



## Chris

oldognewtrick said:


> I sold all my guns at the gun show to a guy named  amed.



He sure was a nice guy.


----------



## frodo

I hope all those actors that threatened to move to Canada if trump wins really do move


----------



## Chris

If hillary wins I'm moving to idaho


----------



## Chris

If Trump wins I'm moving to idaho


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> I hope all those actors that threatened to move to Canada if trump wins really do move



We will hire Mexicans to build a wall.:trophy:


----------



## oldognewtrick

nealtw said:


> We will hire Mexicans to build a wall.:trophy:



Yeah, that doesn't work out real well....


----------



## havasu

And we will hire Canadians for the Northern wall?


----------



## nealtw

havasu said:


> And we will hire Canadians for the Northern wall?



I was talking about the northern wall. That could work out good I think we have lot's of Syrians looking for work.:thbup:


----------



## Chris

The Mexicans that work for me always say they will build the wall as long as they can stay when itis done. They are also against Illegal immigration.


----------



## KULTULZ

Chris said:


> The Mexicans that work for me always say they will build the wall as long as they can stay when itis done. They are also against Illegal immigration.



Are all of your Hispanic workers documented and do you only hire Hispanics?


----------



## oldognewtrick

KULTULZ said:


> *Are all of your Hispanic workers documented *and do you only hire Hispanics?



Being a project manager for a roofing company I have to ask, why does this matter? As a nation we have border security to protect us from foreign invaders, we have police departments that enforce our laws and lots off 3 letter agencies that provide security. Banks lend money to these folks, Western Union provides a pathway for transfer of funds out of country, apartment buildings rent to them, car lots sell them cars, grocery stores sell them food and sundry items, gas stations sell them gas, yet somehow as employers we have to verify that they are here legally. Yet somehow, it's politically correct to hold the employer responsible for vetting workers. Not in my job description to provide national security. 

We have some foreign workers, are they legal? I don't know, they have drivers license. They pass drug tests. They show up each day. They work hard. They make more money than their typical homegrown counter part. Cheap labor? Hardly, they make better wages, work harder and are easier to train than most who apply.


----------



## KULTULZ

oldognewtrick said:


> Being a project manager for a roofing company I have to ask, why does this matter?
> 
> As a nation we have border security to protect us from foreign invaders,



Wrong, as they have been instructed not to enforce the law.



> ...we have police departments that enforce our laws and lots off 3 letter agencies that provide security.


Wrong as again they have been instructed not to enforce illegals entering or living within the country.



> Banks lend money to these folks, Western Union provides a pathway for transfer of funds out of country, apartment buildings rent to them, car lots sell them cars, grocery stores sell them food and sundry items, gas stations sell them gas,
> 
> yet somehow as employers we have to verify that they are here legally. Yet somehow, it's politically correct to hold the employer responsible for vetting workers. Not in my job description to provide national security


What they do is deemed legal. They are there to make money, same as you. How you go about it is a measure of character.

And, according to current written law, you are. But is not enforced so why be concerned?

And BTW, it is in every Americans interest to abide by and help enforce the laws of the land. You don't agree with written law? Lobby to have it changed. 



> We have some foreign workers, are they legal? I don't know, they have drivers license. They pass drug tests. They show up each day. They work hard. They make more money than their typical homegrown counter part. Cheap labor? Hardly, they make better wages, work harder and are easier to train than most who apply


So in essence, you are saying you are complying with wage, labor and comp law fully? How are you able to comply with the UN-AFFORDABLE CARE ACT, mark them off as casual labor?

The truth is that this country has become a third world banana republic, and it was allowed by the citizenry, much of it not knowing what a democracy is. 

My children and grandchildren will not be able to enjoy what I have enjoyed. The American dream is gone.


----------



## oldognewtrick

Oh, I agree whole heartily. The American Dream is but a memory. 

In construction, a lot of workers are sub-contractors to companies. We 1099 them and require proof of work comp and G/L insurance. The cold hard facts are that we cannot find your typical male that will show up, pass a drug test and stay out of jail. It's not we cheap labor, 5 guys split 5k for 2 days work this week to do a tear off, re-deck and re-roof. Good money for labor. Take the Hispanics out of the labor force and this country would fall to it's knees. I don't like it, I hate it, it's just the facts. 

Now, who has instructed these agencies to not enforce law? Hold them accountable. You can open a door or close the door, if you want a breeze and no flies, put a screen in the door. Same thing can be done for border security. Put a process in place where they can come and work, pay taxes, if they don't have work, they leave. 

I've talked to contractors all across the US at regional seminars. The common concern among a lot of them is available work force. It's not just roofing, I hear it form HVAC, electricians and plumbers. 

What we are leaving to our future generations is a sin! It just irritates me that the agencies that are charged to keep us safe ignore their responsibilities and make it look like greedy contractors are bringing in cheap labor to put Americans out of jobs. 

What I've learned from being around them over the years is a lot of them are good folks who only want to take care of their families and elevate themselves above the cesspool they came from.


----------



## oldognewtrick

KULTULZ said:


> The truth is that this country has become a third world banana republic, *and it was allowed by the citizenry*, much of it not knowing what a democracy is.



On this we disagree, blame falls squarely on the shoulders of our elected officials and their quest to broaden their voter base.


----------



## frodo

KULTULZ said:


> , much of it not knowing what a democracy is.
> .



I live in a republic society not a democratic society

I always check there social security card  and DL

if they did not have both, I will not hire them,   AND  I do not care what you look like, no dl or ssan  no job


----------



## frodo

oldognewtrick said:


> On this we disagree, blame falls squarely on the shoulders of our elected officials and their quest to broaden their voter base.



agree 100%


----------



## Chris

KULTULZ said:


> Are all of your Hispanic workers documented and do you only hire Hispanics?



All my employees have social security numbers and California ID's. They are all on my work comp and all pay payroll taxes. I do absolutely nothing shady when it comes to business and that is what has hurt me the most. We make a very small percentage of profit because I am more legal than most companies.

The majority of my field employees are mexican but I will hire anyone willing to work hard. My cheapest guy makes over twenty dollars an hour. Like Oldog said it is nearly impossible to find hard working willing to learn Americans to do the job. I go through about 20-30 guys a year trying to find young Americans to work. Almost every single one comes in with little to no experience and within a month they all think they are way under paid and then they do not want to work the shovel, they want to be the equipment operator or the foreman or anyone that doesn't have to work a shovel. After that it is just laziness and the entitled feeling. My youngest worker is me at 37 years old. and my oldest employee is an 80 year old retired banker that does my office book keeping.


----------



## havasu

How do you employers actually verify their Social Security Cards? 

As a law enforcement officer, nearly half of the cards that were presented to us were fraudulent. Even more of a concern was even law enforcement officers were unable to verify with any state or federal agency to confirm that these cards were real. 

Give me 10 minutes and a quick 5 mile trip, and I will get you any Social Security Card with any name you want on it. 

And now for a Saturday morning smile...


----------



## Chris

Usually if a fake comes across I will know within a few months with letters from the IRS of names not matching. Other than that we could probably pay for a background check but as an employer I don't go that far. I am doing what I am supposed to by getting copies and submitting numbers. After that I rely on my government to do their job


----------



## KULTULZ

frodo said:


> I live in a republic society not a democratic society
> 
> I always check there social security card  and DL
> 
> if they did not have both, I will not hire them,   AND  I do not care what you look like, no dl or ssan  no job



Do you mean a Republican society or a Representative Republic society?


----------



## KULTULZ

Originally Posted by *KULTULZ* 

 
_
The truth is that this country has become a third world banana republic, *and it was allowed by the citizenry*, much of it not knowing what a democracy is._



oldognewtrick said:


> On this we disagree, blame falls squarely on the shoulders of our elected officials and their quest to broaden their voter base.



Uh, who voted them in and then re-elected them into office? It is not their fault. It is just thieves doing what thieves do.


----------



## oldognewtrick

KULTULZ said:


> Originally Posted by *KULTULZ*
> 
> 
> _
> The truth is that this country has become a third world banana republic, *and it was allowed by the citizenry*, much of it not knowing what a democracy is._
> 
> 
> 
> Uh, who voted them in and then re-elected them into office? It is not their fault. It is just thieves doing what thieves do.




And that makes it ok? Should we turn a blind eye to armed robbery? Just thieves doing what thieves do...&#128580;


----------



## KULTULZ

havasu said:


> How do you employers actually verify their Social Security Cards?
> 
> As a law enforcement officer, nearly half of the cards that were presented to us were fraudulent. Even more of a concern was even law enforcement officers were unable to verify with any state or federal agency to confirm that these cards were real.
> 
> Give me 10 minutes and a quick 5 mile trip, and I will get you any Social Security Card with any name you want on it.



!!!!!!!!!!!!!BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!


Most that come across have easy access to fraudulent ID. Why get legal?

Fraudulent DL and no insurance. How much do you pay for uninsured motorist a year?

There was a time when the IRS came across a bad or fraudulent SS NO, they would send agents out to find the perpetrator(s). Now I have a feeling the government keeps such monies and doesn't bother to track it down. One reason we will be getting a monthly four dollar raise next year.

They have to pay no FED and State income taxes as they have spawned ten kids and that qualifies them for EIC and only GOD knows what else. They live twenty to a house or apartment. They need medical care, off to the emergency room we go.

By issuing a 1099, you are skirting the problem also.


----------



## KULTULZ

oldognewtrick said:


> And that makes it ok? Should we turn a blind eye to armed robbery? Just thieves doing what thieves do...&#128580;



No, we just vote for HILDABEAST.


----------



## havasu

One of my biggest complaints as a police officer was I can check how many guns you own, I can check where you live, how many tickets you've received, how many times you've been arrested, I could find out if you have ever filed a restraining order against someone else, but I was unable to confirm whether you had a fraudulent Social Security Card. I wonder if this was the Fed's way of protecting Illegal Aliens?


----------



## frodo

KULTULZ said:


> Do you mean a Republican society or a Representative Republic society?




 we are a constitutional republic.

 people argue that the United States is a republic, not a democracy. But that&#8217;s a false dichotomy. A common definition of &#8220;republic&#8221; is, to quote the American Heritage Dictionary, &#8220;A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them&#8221; &#8212; we are that. A common definition of &#8220;democracy&#8221; is, &#8220;Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives&#8221; &#8212; we are that, too.

The United States is not a direct democracy, in the sense of a country in which laws (and other government decisions) are made predominantly by majority vote. Some lawmaking is done this way, on the state and local levels, but it&#8217;s only a tiny fraction of all lawmaking. But we are a representative democracy, which is a form of democracy.


----------



## KULTULZ

havasu said:


> ...but I was unable to confirm whether you had a fraudulent Social Security Card. I wonder if this was the Fed's way of protecting Illegal Aliens?



One of many.

They are here for two reasons, voters for the Democratic Party and cheap labor for the Republican Party.

Citizenry gave up their rights during and after Vietnam.

*Afterthought*-

Many are here to commit crime and/or they have been banished from their home country. Now the Syrian immigrants are going to pose even more problems.

Why are our people dying in the Middle East if the supposed enemy is already established here?


----------



## KULTULZ

frodo said:


> we are a constitutional republic.
> 
> people argue that the United States is a republic, not a democracy. But thats a false dichotomy. A common definition of republic is, to quote the American Heritage Dictionary, A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them  we are that. A common definition of democracy is, Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives  we are that, too.
> 
> The United States is not a direct democracy, in the sense of a country in which laws (and other government decisions) are made predominantly by majority vote. Some lawmaking is done this way, on the state and local levels, but its only a tiny fraction of all lawmaking. But we are a representative democracy, which is a form of democracy.



While your definition(s) and theories are correct, we (populace - governed) have little to say in how our government operates.

Take O'BAMA CARE for instance... :down:

And the crooks are still there.


----------



## slownsteady

KULTULZ said:


> ...Many are here to commit crime and/or they have been banished from their home country. Now the Syrian immigrants are going to pose even more problems.
> 
> Why are our people dying in the Middle East if the supposed enemy is already established here?


Now you're just ranting. You make it sound like ALL Syrians are Islamist terrorists. Why would they bother coming here if they were about to get the state they wanted right there at their home? Fact is that those hoping to come here are fleeing the crazies at home, and to live in a place they consider safe.
Is there a possibility that terrorists will infiltrate with this flow?.......yes. Does that mean we should slam the door on everyone?.......not to my mind. Steps need to be taken. Processing needs to be done carefully. YOU would not be here if your ancestors were subject to this train of thought.


----------



## oldognewtrick

slownsteady said:


> YOU would not be here if your ancestors were subject to this train of thought.



Some of my ancestors were here when the mayflower landed, the rest came through Ellis Island. There use to be a vetting system, now we trust it to the same people that run health care and issue our drivers license and auto tags...:help:


----------



## frodo

oldognewtrick said:


> Some of my ancestors were here when the mayflower landed, the rest came through Ellis Island. There use to be a vetting system, now we trust it to the same people that run health care and issue our drivers license and auto tags...:help:



think about it,  how can you vet a person from a war tore town ?
with buildings bombed, fires set and isis in charge of the town.
to vet a person,  you need the cooperation of the authorities where they come from to furnish the documents you wish to see.
there is no way to correctly vet a refugee,  all they are doing is asking them.
are you a terrorist ? 
that is simplified but that is what it comes down to.
if i am not correct, then tell me how to vet someone when their is no one to give you the fie you seek.

they are not being correctly vetted, look at the rapes and crime in gremany and europe.
one refugee raped a 10 year old boy last week. he was vetted.


----------



## slownsteady

Frodo: I don't disagree. But as so often happens when we try to argue a point, we bring in information that is not relevant  to the point. A rape is deplorable - even more so to a child, but that is not terrorism and it is not limited to immigrants. Every wrong in America is not due to immigrants or poor folk, or for that matter, "Obammie".


----------



## oldognewtrick

frodo said:


> think about it,  how can you vet a person from a war tore town ?
> with buildings bombed, fires set and isis in charge of the town.
> to vet a person,  you need the cooperation of the authorities where they come from to furnish the documents you wish to see.
> there is no way to correctly vet a refugee,  all they are doing is asking them.
> are you a terrorist ?
> that is simplified but that is what it comes down to.
> if i am not correct, then tell me how to vet someone when their is no one to give you the fie you seek.
> 
> they are not being correctly vetted, look at the rapes and crime in gremany and europe.
> one refugee raped a 10 year old boy last week. he was vetted.



You made my point, you can't properly vet these refugees. They are not screened, just given access.


----------



## frodo

oldognewtrick said:


> You made my point, you can't properly vet these refugees. They are not screened, just given access.




your


----------



## frodo

slownsteady said:


> Frodo: I don't disagree. But as so often happens when we try to argue a point, we bring in information that is not relevant  to the point. A rape is deplorable - even more so to a child, but that is not terrorism and it is not limited to immigrants. Every wrong in America is not due to immigrants or poor folk, or for that matter, "Obammie".




my point flew over your head, jump up when you see it coming back around  :rofl:


My point is,  thy were super duper EXTREME 150% vetted. or so the Gubment says.
seems they missed something doesn't it ?  

If they let in a Chomo,  they will let in a terrorist


----------



## slownsteady

frodo said:


> my point flew over your head, jump up when you see it coming back around  :rofl:
> 
> 
> My point is,  thy were super duper EXTREME 150% vetted. or so the Gubment says.
> seems they missed something doesn't it ?
> 
> If they let in a Chomo,  they will let in a terrorist


No I caught it the first time. That's just the echo flying around you that you reacted to.

_My point_ is the guy isn't a terrorist, he's a creep. How can you catch that.......realistically I mean. there's thousands of creeps born here, and we don't catch them before something happens.
Oh wait, maybe you're saying it's ok for American creeps to be here, just not foreign ones.


----------



## KULTULZ

No, what he is saying is that there is no good reason to allow a primitive uncivilized people into your society. The US is responsible for what has happened and what is happening in the Middle East.

The only reason they are being brought here and being widely dispersed is to askew voting patterns. And they are mostly young men of military age not the women and children being shown on slanted news shows.

Tribal warfare and religious war have been fought since the beginning of recorded history in this region. Both Britain and the USSR were driven from Afghanistan. Our leaders have not quite figured that one out yet.

But I am just ranting... 

I could see a UN effort (the US footing the bill of course) to build refugee camps there and feed them, but bringing them here (or has been shown in Western Europe) is not an option.

There is enough poverty, crime and hate here already. We don't need Islamic zealots to add to our problems.

How is it that the US freed itself from England and hae withstood numerous wars since then? The rest of the world is going to have to realize Uncle Sugar cannot (and should not) police the world.

Somehow, we have survived the OBAMA Administration. We even survived the Bush II and Clintoon Administration. At some point it all has to hit the fan.

-*THE MOUSE THAT ROARED (film)*-


----------



## oldognewtrick

slownsteady said:


> No I caught it the first time. That's just the echo flying around you that you reacted to.
> 
> _My point_ is the guy isn't a terrorist, he's a creep. How can you catch that.......realistically I mean. there's thousands of creeps born here, and we don't catch them before something happens.
> *Oh wait, maybe you're saying it's ok for American creeps to be here, just not foreign ones.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> NO... we have enough of our own, why invite more wackos into the insane asylum....


----------



## frodo

slownsteady said:


> No I caught it the first time. That's just the echo flying around you that you reacted to.
> 
> _My point_ is the guy isn't a terrorist, he's a creep. How can you catch that.......realistically I mean. there's thousands of creeps born here, and we don't catch them before something happens.
> .



my point exactly.

take your post,  switch the word creep to terrorist.  

that is what i am saying,  


I]My point[/I] is the guy isn't a Creep, he's a  terrorist. How can you catch that.......realistically I mean. there's thousands of  terrorist  born here, and we don't catch them before something happens.
.[/QUOTE]

you can not vet someone that is a terrorist,  it is not stamped on there forehead
you need info, to do so.
so stop the SOB from coming in, all of them.
It is better to error on the side of caution than to have dead bodies because we were wrong


----------



## slownsteady

I'm out. It's like shouting into a cave.


----------



## Chris

This gave me a chuckle.


----------



## buffalo

It's always a lesser of two evils . Every election in my lifetime, had no meaning to me , all the same BS. This is my first time voting.......can you guess for who??


----------



## oldognewtrick

Buffalo, I went and early voted. I wrote in "Goofy" the ballot machine just chuckled and a pic of all the candidates came on the screen and it said you can only cast one vote.


----------



## frodo

slownsteady said:


> I'm out. It's like shouting into a cave.



someone is in the cave yelling back, but you are not listening to anything but your own echo.


point i made with your own words, is, they can not vet a child molester
how do you expect them to vet a terrorist ?
the answer is simple, they cant, the vetting process is half *** at best.

.................
your quote
"'Now you're just ranting. You make it sound like ALL Syrians are Islamist terrorists. Why would they bother coming here if they were about to get the state they wanted right there at their home? Fact is that those hoping to come here are fleeing the crazies at home, and to live in a place they consider safe.
Is there a possibility that terrorists will infiltrate with this flow?.......yes. Does that mean we should slam the door on everyone?.......not to my mind. Steps need to be taken. Processing needs to be done carefully. YOU would not be here if your ancestors were subject to this train of thought."
__________________

this is where we differ,    I feel if there is a chance !  [one] US citizen can be harmed that is one to many and I am not willing to take the chance.

You on the other hand,  do not, Think there is a danger.   we can not agree on this difference, the gap is to wide


the FBI and home land security have PUBLICLY  admitted they can not 100 % vet the refugees

when the can, then we can talk.

thank you for the discussion
,


----------



## atleastitried

After the last debate I really can't see why anyone would vote for Hillary any more, but maybe that's just me..


----------



## frodo

Anyone in this cave besides me ?


----------



## zannej

I usually stay out of political stuff, but I do have some knowledge of the refugee screening process-- it was part of my father's job. It's not 100% perfect-- nothing is. BUT, the process for refugee screening is stricter than the screening for tourists, students, and workers. It is far easier for terrorists to just come in on a visitor's visa or a tourist visa. It's not unheard of for them to come over on a fiance visa either. Tricking American women into marrying them for a green card is actually a very common scam. And then we have the fact that border reinforcement is not what it used to be so they can just sneak in.

I was actually involved with Operation Safe Haven when the Kurdish refugees came in. Most of them were women and children. The thing that the press isn't really talking about is what will happen to these refugees if they stay in their own countries. They are leaving because they are being tortured, maimed, and slaughtered. The children are being forced in to slavery and made in to soldiers and suicide bombers. 

Blocking the refugees from coming in will likely not stop any terrorists-- it is more likely to allow the children who are taken prisoner to become terrorists and the rest of the people will suffer and/or die. 

There are already over 35,000 terrorists inside the US. Any threats we face are likely to come from people who are already here or people who enter via one of the easier methods I mentioned before.

Just as I don't think it is right to take away guns from every citizen because a few bad apples might use their guns to commit crimes, I don't think it is right to reject all refugees on the fear that one or more of them may end up being terrorists.

Part of the reason 9/11 happened was because the commissioner of INS (Doris Meissner-- who should never have been appointed bc she had openly stated she wanted to abolish immigration all together and just open the borders to everyone) crippled internal enforcement. She ordered INS to allow in thousands of immigrants without screening them first and told them to screen retroactively. The terrorists who hijacked the planes were among those who would have been rejected had they been screened first.

Refusing all refugees will just mean the terrorists try to find other avenues to enter-- the path of least resistance-- and the innocent refugees will suffer because of them. And make no mistake, the terrorists want the US to reject the immigrants because then they can manipulate the survivors in to hating the US.

I know this is not a popular opinion, but I base it on what I know of the former INS and my experiences with refugees.


----------



## frodo

oh yeah,  you are right you view is not popular with me.  But, this Is America and you have the right to your opinion and to voice it
I will defend your right to say it.  
what we have coming into our country are 3 different sets of people.
immigrants
illegal aliens
refugees
the immigrants have expressed a desire to assimilate into our culture making the USA stronger and united
thw illegal aliens want to make money, piss on our culture and go back to mexico at a later date,  some, want to stay. majority do not
refugees do not want to be here, they will not assimilate, they want to set up their own form of government and laws
they are not compatible with our values

on top of this, 
we are facing 2 crisis's here in the Us, Jobs and the fed Deficit 
the illegals are taking jobs from citizens,  some say they are not. I call BS,  we, here on this forum know the amount of illegals in the construction trade
they are not all picking peaches
the refugees want welfare,  and are in line to take job opportunities away from our citizens

when do we say,  what about OUR people?  

I am not for bringing in to our country those who clearly do not want anything to do with our culture
I am for having the UN among other countries builds a camp for them.
we can provide humanitarian aid

As far as the vetting process,  I stick to my earlier post.
the fbi and homeland security says they can not do it


----------



## zannej

I am aware that a lot of illegal aliens come in and get on welfare and other public assistance. The ones that work end up getting really low pay and get taken advantage of. They are more likely to be the victims of crime because they won't report it and are more likely to end up getting roped in to being involved in crime. They end up being abused. The people who want us to just let them all stay don't seem to realize that they get taken advantage of so much. They also don't seem to realize that since they are mostly working under the table, they aren't paying income tax and their employers aren't paying FICA and SUTA for them.

There is also a problem now in STEM fields where companies are taking advantage of a loophole that was meant to allow foreign workers to fill in jobs when there weren't enough US citizens to take them. They are taking longtime employees and replacing them with foreign workers (and only have to pay those workers 15% of what they pay the US workers) and making the US workers train their replacements before leaving.

I will have to disagree about the refugees not wanting to be here and not being willing to change. That may be true for some of them, but the ones I saw coming through were not that way. I'm not saying the transition from their own culture to the US was easy-- they had a lot to learn and it was a culture shock, but they were willing to make changes because they had to.

I don't think anyone coming to the US should have to change their religion, but they do have to respect our laws. Refugees tend to be set up in camps where they can start to learn about US culture before they are assimilated into the general public. 

There is no perfect solution, unfortunately. 

The vetting process for refugees is still far stricter than the process for visitors and students. Coming in as a refugee is just not practical.

Editing to add: I do accept that there are other reasons to not accept refugees-- such as the employment situation and inability to take them. But concern that a refugee may be a terrorist is something I do not consider a valid or fair argument against them. I can understand why people would have such fears, but I don't believe that fear of potential threats justifies depriving people of opportunities or rights. Not having the money, housing, jobs, or space for them is more practical and fair. I'm just not a fan of penalizing a group of people because others are afraid of what a single member or small group of members might do.

I hope that makes sense.


----------



## KULTULZ

zannej said:


> Part of the reason 9/11 happened was because the commissioner of INS (Doris Meissner-- who should never have been appointed bc she had openly stated she wanted to abolish immigration all together and just open the borders to everyone) crippled internal enforcement. She ordered INS to allow in thousands of immigrants without screening them first and told them to screen retroactively. The terrorists who hijacked the planes were among those who would have been rejected had they been screened first.



Had immigration been enforced, no one would have died in the Twin Towers. This has been continually brushed over since the incident.

The reason they are being brought here is for political advantage. The reason they are being killed there is centuries old tribal and religious warfare. There is no concern for their well being. OBAMA and HILLARY are aristocrats and never have to see or rub elbows with them.   

We do.

They have Allepo, we have S. Chicago. What is the difference? Our own are not capable of assimilating, much less primitive savages.


----------



## frodo

If you live in Saudi Arabia, if you live in any of these Muslim countries that have strict, radical Sharia law, it is a clash of cultures. It is the antithesis. Sharia law is the antithesis of our Constitutional republic.

    In other words, if youre going to force women to wear certain clothes, if youre not going to allow women to drive a car, if youre raised in a culture where a woman thats raped needs four male eyewitnesses, if a woman needs male relatives to go out in public, that is a direct contradiction of American values.

    It is a clash of cultures. Look, I happen to think, I guess Im very American-centric, if you will, and I believe in American exceptionalism, I happen to believe that women should be able to pick their own clothes. And I happen to believe the women in my life dont need me to take them outside of the house. And I happen to believe that if a woman is raped, you just need, you know, physical evidence, one eyewitness would be enough to prove rape. I just happen to believe that in some cases women would be able to pick the person they marry.

    You know, but, you know, maybe Im just, you know, too liberal for some. Its ridiculous. Its a clash of cultures.

    Now go to the Syrian refugee issue. Okay, now people that have those values, have been raised in that culture, want to come to America.

    How do we ascertain if they want to assimilate into American values, because they want liberty and freedom, and the hungering of their soul is for a better life for them and their families and their daughters and their sons? Or do they come here like they did in Paris, infiltrate the refugee community, and those that want a better life  with the intention of bringing a Caliphate and killing as many Americans as possible  all in the name of Allah and in the search of seventy-two virgins?

    How many terror incidents is it going to take to wake this country the hell up? How many people will have to die because we are stupid? We are now back to a pre-9/11 mentality.
mark my words on this date. If you bring the refugees here American's will die and so will OUR culture


----------



## KULTULZ

How many terror incidents is it going to take to wake this country the  hell up? How many people will have to die because we are stupid? We are  now back to a pre-9/11 mentality.

About the same number that agree with illegals strolling across the border and bringing crime, disease, drugs and a free meal ticket paid for by Uncle Sugar.

If one group doesn't get you, they will find another.


----------



## zannej

I know the Kurds aren't quite the same as the Syrians. The Kurds were mountain people who were not familiar with modern technology. They tried to cook a turkey in a clothes dryer. But, the little girls I saw were still excited about seeing printed out pamphlets with pictures and words and they wanted to learn how to read. I won't pretend to know what things are like in Syria. I've heard things have grown worse for women. I don't know if I would categorize them all as "primitive savages" though.

There are bad periods in history for various religions. Look at some of the garbage the Christians did early on-- the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc. The Mormons massacred people and tried to blame it on the Native Americans. Then we have the IRA blowing up buses. There is a very ugly history and right now there are some sects of Islam who are in those stages. But, those are the smaller groups. The majority of Muslims are not violent.

If those women and children stayed behind, they would have no such opportunities. They would have to remain in that oppression if they didn't end up murdered. That crap that is so oppressive to women isn't even based on the actual religion-- it is cultural. 

For many years I lived in a country with more Muslims than Christians. The main religion was Buddhism and there were people of many other religions- with Christians being a minority. The beliefs were different, but they are all still people.

Also, there are Christians today who are still trying to tell women what to wear (that they can't show their breasts), who to marry (that they can't marry other women), and what they can do with their bodies. There are groups of men who claim to be Christian who advocate physical violence and even rape as "discipline" for women (particularly wives). There are Christians who want to make the government favor their religion over theirs instead of remaining secular. Where does one draw the line at religious interference in government?

I think part of the problem is that the Muslim people are not being seen as _people_.

I don't know what happened with France and their screening policies-- but I did meet some people online who bragged about helping Arab illegal aliens enter France. Just as there are Americans who do the same with illegal aliens from Mexico and other countries. They ignore the fact that we have laws for a reason.

Kultulz, you are right that the media ignored that the lack of enforcement was a huge problem. And Meissner was appointed by Clinton. She was actually doing such a crap job of it that she was going to be fired, but her husband (who was a close personal friend of Bill's) died in some sort of plane or helicopter accident. Not only did that woman cease internal enforcement, she also ordered all of the rule/law books destroyed under the pretense that they would be put on computer, and started doing everything she could to eliminate the older personnel who had extensive knowledge of those rules and laws. That was after she tried to do things that violated the rules and she got called out on it by the experienced agents. She also started refusing to promote experienced qualified white males to supervisory positions and had an order to give promotions to inexperienced underqualified females and minorities first. The screening process for immigrants went from taking 3 months up to 6 months and now it can take upwards of 10 YEARS. The whole system was screwed.

Which makes me realize that under the current circumstances, maybe you guys are right about them not being able to do the refugee screenings properly. So, I may cede on that point.

Hillary reportedly despises military personnel, despises maintenance people (anyone she thinks is beneath her-- which is pretty much everyone), and despises the Secret Service agents and treats all of them like garbage. I don't doubt that she does not give a rat's behind about the refugees. I do think it is a political thing rather than humanitarian. She only does things to try to win votes and get more approval. At least Bill was nice to the Secret Service and did things to improve morale with federal employees. Unfortunately, he picked Meissner for Commissioner of INS and screwed things up.

I just wish people wouldn't treat the refugees like some tool or group to use as leverage and actually saw them as human beings. My father spent 30 years in INS and had to deport quite a few people, but he still viewed them as human beings (even if they were often referred to as "bodies"). He often advised them on how to enter legally. But that was back when the screening process was faster. After he retired and the reorg happened, it all went to hell in a handbasket.

I think I just went off on a tangent and I don't know if I'm making any sense.


----------



## frodo

are you familiar with the Muslim term's  Taqiyya and kitman  from the Quron  ?  
do you know what they mean ?  
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx

knowing that the muslim religion expects and preaches to its members to lie, deceive non muslims to gain there trust only to 
then practice Jiyhad on them.   This is what the couple did in San Bernadino  too their co workers.
they attended baby showers and birrthday partys, the whole time plotting to kill every one in the office.
NO, i can not Trust a muslim, NO, I can not treat a Muslim as a friend. KNOWING their religion is teaching them to lie and deceive me


----------



## zannej

But just like with Christianity and other religions, people don't stick to every facet of a religion. People pick and choose parts. Some pick things to discriminate against others, and some pick things to be nice to others. There are things in the Christian religion that are quite violent and condemning of others. Would you want people to judge you based on some passages in the Bible that you may or may not observe/adhere to?

And keep in mind that the page you linked was interpreting the texts a certain way. The Muslims may not practice those things the way that page interprets. 

The Mormom religion teaches their members to lie and deceive people. Would you refuse to trust or befriend a Mormon? 

While there are small groups of fanatics who are violent and hateful, there are many more who are just average people who just want to live their lives and who treat others with respect and kindness.

And the thing is, unless people make enemies out of them, they really don't have a reason for jihad. Jihad was supposed to be used as a defense when they were under attack. The attitude that they are all scum and can't be trusted is part of the problem.

I still respect you and you have a right to your opinions, but I completely disagree with your assessment of Muslims.


----------



## slownsteady

zannej said:


> *and keep in mind that the page you linked was interpreting the texts a certain way.* the muslims may not practice those things the way that page interprets.


!!!bingo!!!!!!


----------



## KULTULZ

1) The CRUSADES were in response to religious practices/persecution...

2) I would not even think of walking on the streets of S. Chicago or E. LA trying to be friendly with the natives...

3) Neither would I attempt to walk onto the property of anyone in WV without a written documented invitation...

4) I would not reply to an invitation for dinner from an Amazonian tribe as I might be the main course...

One has no idea of the true realities of different cultures until they are either out of country or haven found themselves living in a ghetto/barrio.

You want to stick your butt into the air, fine by me. Just remember, incoming has the right of way. The Constitution has no provision for trying to save the world (and having me pay for it). Europeans came here to leave persecution, not to have corrupt politicians bring it here.

If you want the filth, ignorance and disease all around you, become a missionary.


----------



## KULTULZ

zannej said:


> But just like with Christianity and other religions, people don't stick to every facet of a religion. People pick and choose parts. Some pick things to discriminate against others, and some pick things to be nice to others. There are things in the Christian religion that are quite violent and condemning of others. Would you want people to judge you based on some passages in the Bible that you may or may not observe/adhere to?



That is why there are so many interpretations/denominations of the Christian faith. Christianity is not a fit all religion.



> The Mormom religion teaches their members to lie and deceive people. Would you refuse to trust or befriend a Mormon?
> 
> While there are small groups of fanatics who are violent and hateful, there are many more who are just average people who just want to live their lives and who treat others with respect and kindness.
> 
> And the thing is, unless people make enemies out of them, they really don't have a reason for jihad. Jihad was supposed to be used as a defense when they were under attack. The attitude that they are all scum and can't be trusted is part of the problem.
> 
> I still respect you and you have a right to your opinions, but I completely disagree with your assessment of Muslims.


And you make the same interpretations of the MORMON faith. You are just as biased.


----------



## frodo

My sister and family are mormons,  i have no idea where you got that false impression


----------



## zannej

KULTULZ said:


> That is why there are so many interpretations/denominations of the Christian faith. Christianity is not a fit all religion.
> 
> And you make the same interpretations of the MORMON faith. You are just as biased.


And there are different denominations of Islam as well. They may not have different names, but there are different levels/sects of it. There are people who just stick to the praying multiple times a day, not eating pork, and so forth. There are some who cover themselves up more. Not all Muslim women cover their heads or wear such modest clothes. Men are supposed to dress modestly as well. I don't like that women in some areas are forced to cover their heads and faces and locked indoors. Those are practices of the extreme sects and are more cultural than religious, but they are using the religion as an excuse. 

I don't see how not hating Muslims is akin to going in to the  ghetto. Are you saying people born and/or raised in the ghetto shouldn't  be given opportunities if they leave and try to make better lives for  themselves?



frodo said:


> My sister and family are mormons,  i have no idea where you got that false impression



I'm going by history and documents about the Mormon religion. I  recognize that probably 90% of the Mormons do not practice those facets  of the religion.  Just as a majority of the Muslims do not practice the  parts that preach hatred of people who have other religions. The actions  of small fanatical groups are being used to condemn all 1.7billion  Muslims in the world. I was just using that as an example of how people can see text and use  it to judge others without actually getting to know the people.

And your sentiments about your Mormom family are how the Muslims feel when people start saying things about their religion and beliefs. Hell, it is how I feel when I see people spouting off about Muslims when they probably have never even met one in their life. I have the benefit of having traveled and lived in other places where I got to know people. Just because of one incident of Muslims being nice to plot against their co-workers doesn't mean they are all going to do that. There are numerous examples of Christian groups killing people, but it doesn't mean I will vilify ALL Christians for it. Honestly, the idea that every single Muslim out there is only being nice as some sort of plot is absolutely ludicrous. It ranks up there with Zionist conspiracy theories. And it is a dangerous mindset that leads to even more conflict and hatred.

Keep in mind the jihad was initially in response to persecution by other religions. People hating Muslims is exactly why some of them feel justified in hating others. Hate begets hate.

For the record, I have nothing against Mormons and I have friends who are Mormons. I also have friends who are Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, Seekh, Wiccan, Agnostic, and Atheists. I don't judge people based on their religious beliefs. How a person acts and treats others is more important to me than what they believe.

I probably won't change your minds on this. I really don't expect to. I still love you guys, but I stringently disagree about Muslims. 

Anyways, this got derailed from the topic: Trump's proposed policies. Many of them sound good on paper. But the problem with Trump is that he has a history of not actually respecting his contracts. He breaks his promises all the time. Maybe I sound like a conspiracy nut, but I don't believe that he actually intends to follow through with any of it. I don't believe that he is actually a Republican or that he really believes in the stuff he spouts. I think he's a reactionary who is trying to get publicity and having all sorts of people talking about him all the time is feeding his ego.


----------



## frodo

ok, we are back on Trump,  can you support the alleged  allegation trump does not fulfill his obligations ?
he filed chapter 11  reorganization .  on 6 business's out of over 400, business's  
in a chapter 11 reorganization,  it is basically a refinance,  every one was paid, except Trump




http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ep/21/carly-fiorina/trumps-four-bankruptcies/


----------



## nealtw

http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trumps-business-plan-left-a-trail-of-unpaid-bills-1465504454
http://correctrecord.org/fact-check-phil-ruffin-lies-about-trumps-record-paying-his-bills/
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...trump-not-paying-his-bills-reports-claim.html
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/10/politics/donald-trump-unpaid-bills-reports/
http://people.com/celebrity/trumps-trail-of-unpaid-bills-hundreds-say-the-donald-stiffed-them/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...bills-republican-president-laswuits/85297274/


----------



## nealtw

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/nyregion/donald-trump-atlantic-city.html?_r=0


----------



## nealtw

Frodo, as small business people we think with pride and pay all our bills and take what is left as wages even if we incorporate a business we tend to have the same attitude and that is not what the big boys do.
As all of these were multi million dollar companies it would seem reasonable for him to take a large wage, at least large by our standards. He used wall street investor money for as long as he could and continued to pull that big wage until all funds were gone. Yes the creditors and investors would have been left to fight over the building and the fixtures but as the whole strip was failing there was no value there compared to the size of the investment.

We can laugh and say well that was just those rich investment bankers loosing there shirts. I don't know and I don't remember hearing or reading it but I would bet that all those investment bankers where not investing there money.I am sure they were investing other peoples pensions funds and the like. That is how they make money, they charge you to bay shares they have a charge every month or so and charge you to sell it.
So when Trump filed, he left a lot of pain for a lot of people. And only then did he stop drawing wages.

He has bragged about how much money he made thru those deals but he says it was because he knew when to get out.


----------



## nealtw

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Entertainment_Resorts


----------



## frodo

oh well,  how many people died  ? because the aids drugs were mostly water ?
how many died in benghazi ?
how many mothers were called liars ?
how much does the office of SS cost ?  
what difference does it make ?

I am still voting for Trump,


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> oh well,  how many people died  ? because the aids drugs were mostly water ?
> how many died in benghazi ?
> how many mothers were called liars ?
> how much does the office of SS cost ?
> what difference does it make ?
> 
> I am still voting for Trump,



Fair enough and hopefully no body ever try to take that away from you.:thbup:


----------



## Chris

Like Trump, I knew when to get out of this thread.


----------



## KULTULZ

zannej said:


> And there are different denominations of Islam as well. They may not have different names, but there are different levels/sects of it.
> 
> I don't see how not hating Muslims is akin to going in to the  ghetto. Are you saying people born and/or raised in the ghetto shouldn't  be given opportunities if they leave and try to make better lives for  themselves?



What you fail to see is how this immigration of these people has effected Western Europe. The news is blacked out to prevent the realization of how things are beginning to change here.

Ghettos have been with this society since the beginning whether the inhabitants were Irish, Italian, Poles (Eastern Europe), Chinese or blacks. People can only help themselves and they have had more than enough help over the years to work themselves out. It ain't whitey holding them down.

The Muslim/Islam religion propagates hate and death for any non-believer. It always has and always will.

As for Trump, he is an achiever. I wish I would have had the sense to have gotten up off my lazy butt and done just a minuscule of what he has accomplished. 

Is he a Republican? Hopefully not. He is the last gasp of free air in this once proud nation. Voters turned down the usual field of liars and thieves. The change of air and scenery will do us all good,

BTW- I am damned tired of being labeled Redneck/Hillbilly. It is OK for these names to be called but not others. Even Hillary used the term deplorable to describe those that don't see eye to eye {{{ :hide:}}} with her. So much for her fellow man.


----------



## frodo

All False statements involving Hillary Clinton

Says FBI Director James Comey&#8217;s letter about new developments in the investigation into her emails "only" went "to Republican members of the House." 

We are now, for the first time ever, energy independent." 

Says Donald Trump "doesn't make a thing in America." 

Says unlike Tim Kaine, who "invested" in education, Indiana Gov. Mike Pence "slashed education funding."

Says she "never received nor sent any material that was marked classified" on her private email server while secretary of state. 

"It was allowed," referring to her email practices. 

Let me say that I don't think (Bernie Sanders has) had a single negative ad ever run against him."  

The Clean Power Plan is something that Sen. Sanders has said he would delay implementing." 

"You are three times more likely to be able to get a mortgage if you're a white applicant than if you're black or Hispanic, even if you have the same credentials." 

We now have more jobs in solar than we do in oil." 

I am the only candidate on either side who has laid out a specific plan about what I would do to defeat ISIS." 

Every piece of legislation, just about, that I ever introduced (in the U.S. Senate) had a Republican co-sponsor."  

"We now have driven (health care) costs down to the lowest they've been in 50 years." 

there is another page and a half of her lies and deceit
plus the cheating on the debates,  this woman is not worthy to be a citizen much less POTUS

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/hillary-clinton/statements/byruling/false/


----------



## KULTULZ

*"our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people-

it is wholly inadequate to the government of any other"*


----------



## frodo

FIRST, propose a Constitutional Amendment to impose term limits on all members of Congress;
I do not see anything wrong with this

SECOND, a hiring freeze on all federal employees to reduce federal workforce through attrition (exempting military, public safety, and public health);
Sounds like common sence

THIRD, a requirement that for every new federal regulation, two existing regulations must be eliminated;
Again, a common since measure, we have a far to many useless regulations that can be eliminated


FOURTH, a 5 year-ban on White House and Congressional officials becoming lobbyists after they leave government service;
This should have been done LONG ago

FIFTH, a lifetime ban on White House officials lobbying on behalf of a foreign government;
Makes since to me

SIXTH, a complete ban on foreign lobbyists raising money for American elections. Only reason a fur'n er is raising money ..is to buy favors

On the same day, I will begin taking the following seven actions to protect American workers:


FIRST, I will announce my intention to renegotiate NAFTA or withdraw from the deal under Article 2205
OUTSTANDING...we are being screwed every day


SECOND, I will announce our withdrawal from the Trans-Pacific Partnership
Damn right


THIRD, I will direct my Secretary of the Treasury to label China a currency manipulator
Something nancy boy obama was afraid to do


FOURTH, I will direct the Secretary of Commerce and U.S. Trade Representative to identify all foreign trading abuses that unfairly impact American workers and direct them to use every tool under American and international law to end those abuses immediately
fight back, hell yes
FIFTH, I will lift the restrictions on the production of $50 trillion dollars worth of job-producing American energy reserves, including shale, oil, natural gas and clean coal.

JOBS JOBS JOBS

SIXTH, lift the Obama-Clinton roadblocks and allow vital energy infrastructure projects, like the Keystone Pipeline, to move forward

MORE JOBS

SEVENTH, cancel billions in payments to U.N. climate change programs and use the money to fix Americas water and environmental infrastructure
Additionally, on the first day, I will take the following five actions to restore security and the constitutional rule of law:

YESSSSSS

FIRST, cancel every unconstitutional executive action, memorandum and order issued by President Obama

YESSSSSSS

SECOND, begin the process of selecting a replacement for Justice Scalia from one of the 20 judges on my list, who will uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States
YES

THIRD, cancel all federal funding to Sanctuary Cities
DAMN RIGHT

FOURTH, begin removing the more than 2 million criminal illegal immigrants from the country and cancel visas to foreign countries that wont take them back

Not Soon enough

FIFTH, suspend immigration from terror-prone regions where vetting cannot safely occur. All vetting of people coming into our country will be considered extreme vetting.
Protect the lives of AMERICANS FIRST   BEFORE OTHERS

Next, I will work with Congress to introduce the following broader legislative measures and fight for their passage within the first 100 days of my Administration:


----------



## KULTULZ

> THIRD, cancel all federal funding to Sanctuary Cities



How about prosecuting the individuals that refuse to comply with the law?


----------



## oldognewtrick

KULTULZ said:


> How about prosecuting the individuals that refuse to comply with the law?



Which ones, there are solo many...


----------



## frodo

KULTULZ said:


> How about prosecuting the individuals that refuse to comply with the law?




how about both


----------



## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> How about prosecuting the individuals that refuse to comply with the law?



I think you have to look at the reason why a city does that before you condemn it out of hand.

I doubt they do it to attract more people but it might be an effect.

Whether we like these people or not, no body wants them murdered raped, beaten or taken advantage of or just being afraid to come forward to talk about being a witness to those crimes.

If the Feds could or would do their job there would be no need for a city to consider this move.


----------



## KULTULZ

nealtw said:


> I think you have to look at the reason why a city does that before you condemn it out of hand.
> 
> I doubt they do it to attract more people but it might be an effect.
> 
> Whether we like these people or not, no body wants them murdered raped, beaten or taken advantage of or just being afraid to come forward to talk about being a witness to those crimes.
> 
> If the Feds could or would do their job there would be no need for a city to consider this move.



Sorry Neal, I was referring to the city government officials who allow/condone this madness. 

If the illegals were not allowed to congregate in these places there would be less crime on both sides. It is as simple as that.

Why have laws if it is pick and choose and double standards? You cannot ignore Federal Law (well, I guess you can nowadays). It seems there was a long bloody war about the attempt many years ago. The Yankees won... 

And yes *frodo*...


----------



## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> Sorry Neal, I was referring to the city government officials who allow/condone this madness.
> 
> If the illegals were not allowed to congregate in these places there would be less crime on both sides. It is as simple as that.
> 
> Why have laws if it is pick and choose and double standards? You cannot ignore Federal Law (well, I guess you can nowadays). It seems there was a long bloody war about the attempt many years ago. The Yankees won...
> 
> And yes *frodo*...



So nothing to discuss here, if only life was that easy.:thbup:


----------



## Chris

KULTULZ said:


> Sorry Neal, I was referring to the city government officials who allow/condone this madness.
> 
> If the illegals were not allowed to congregate in these places there would be less crime on both sides. It is as simple as that.
> 
> Why have laws if it is pick and choose and double standards? You cannot ignore Federal Law (well, I guess you can nowadays). It seems there was a long bloody war about the attempt many years ago. The Yankees won...
> 
> And yes *frodo*...



I-8 leads to San Diego, might want to direct them out 10 west, leads right to LA.:thbup:


----------



## oldognewtrick

KULTULZ said:


> *The Yankees won... *
> 
> And yes *frodo*...



Not this year, The Cubs took it in 7.


----------



## KULTULZ

How about we allow free movement for then (as Mexico provides for Central/South Americans) into Canada? Let's see what tune they sing when very few _citizens_ speak the King's English... :rofl:


----------



## KULTULZ

Chris said:


> I-8 leads to San Diego, might want to direct them out 10 west, leads right to LA.:thbup:



I think the idea is to show then the quickest way to CA.

Let Gov Moonbeam worry about them...


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> I think you have to look at the reason why a city does that before you condemn it out of hand.
> 
> I doubt they do it to attract more people but it might be an effect.
> 
> Whether we like these people or not, no body wants them murdered raped, beaten or taken advantage of or just being afraid to come forward to talk about being a witness to those crimes.
> 
> If the Feds could or would do their job there would be no need for a city to consider this move.



i think you are not understanding what a sanctuary city is 

it is a city that does not enforce the immigration laws
it has nothing to do with crime against illegal aliens


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> I think you have to look at the reason why a city does that before you condemn it out of hand.
> 
> I doubt they do it to attract more people but it might be an effect.
> 
> Whether we like these people or not, no body wants them murdered raped, beaten or taken advantage of or just being afraid to come forward to talk about being a witness to those crimes.
> 
> If the Feds could or would do their job there would be no need for a city to consider this move.



INS  can not do their job when POTUS administration tells them to stand down

if you want to talk to a real live border patrol agent. [CajunBP]  I have a friend that works there. He will be HAPPY to explain the whole thing to you from there view point.
they are pissed off and disgruntled , they are not allowed to do there jobs
but watch as people come in,  with hands tied
They are for TRUMP,  They want the Border CLOSED

he has very insightful ideas,  we argue often


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> INS  can not do their job when POTUS administration tells them to stand down
> 
> if you want to talk to a real live border patrol agent. [CajunBP]  I have a friend that works there. He will be HAPPY to explain the whole thing to you from there view point.
> they are pissed off and disgruntled , they are not allowed to do there jobs
> but watch as people come in,  with hands tied
> They are for TRUMP,  They want the Border CLOSED
> 
> he has very insightful ideas,  we argue often



Nobody has deported more people than this administration.

We all have insightful ideas, most of them cost too much.:trophy:


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> Nobody has deported more people than this administration.
> 
> We all have insightful ideas, most of them cost too much.:trophy:



illegl alien family of 3 costs taxpayers $46,949.00 per year

the number being kicked around for illegal liens is 12 million
i think this number is very very low,  but lets use it
take the 12 m  divide by 3  equals 4 million

for arguments sake  we will use the number 4 million for families

4m x 50 k =200 billion a year

when you look at the whole picture. yeah,  it start getting real and expensive
and a wall plus deportation does not look to be that expensive


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> Nobody has deported more people than this administration.
> 
> We all have insightful ideas, most of them cost too much.:trophy:



Why do we have the border patrol if it costs to much?

It's the same here in California, they are not allowed to properly do their jobs. The only thing our local office does is drug stops. Nothing about illegal immigration. 

If more people are getting deported now more than ever, where are they getting deported from? I talk to my Mexican employees about this stuff daily. They all tell me no one is getting deported around here. Around here we also have one if the biggest communities of illegals. When things happen word gets out.

After 2009 a lot of illegals went back to Mexico because there simply wasn't work here anymore, maybe that is where they are getting their numbers from?


----------



## nealtw

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2015/12/22/dhs-releases-end-fiscal-year-2015-statistics


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> illegl alien family of 3 costs taxpayers $46,949.00 per year
> 
> the number being kicked around for illegal liens is 12 million
> i think this number is very very low,  but lets use it
> take the 12 m  divide by 3  equals 4 million
> 
> for arguments sake  we will use the number 4 million for families
> 
> 4m x 50 k =200 billion a year
> 
> when you look at the whole picture. yeah,  it start getting real and expensive
> and a wall plus deportation does not look to be that expensive



In the fifties your gov. rounded up people and just bused them across the boarder and dropped them in a desert, many died.
As a result you have new laws on holding, before and after hearings, trial, appeals.
As well as the international norms and treaties .

So many new court rooms trial judges, prosecutors and all that goes with that
at what cost.    Big government.

Or throw out the laws and the international norms. MAKE AMERICA GREAT.


----------



## Chris

71 percent of those were caught at the border trying to cross. You can count them on paper but they don't really count as illegals living here being deported. That leaves 69,000 that were deported across the US of the 11.4 million illegals they think live here and 91 percent of those were criminals that got caught by police and deported. That comes out to 6,210 illegal immigrants that were caught by Border patrol and removed from the US. We have 20,000 border patrol agents and only caught 6,210 illegals and deported them. 

Just because more people are trying to cross and getting caught doesn't mean Obama should be taking credit for deporting more people than anyone else.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Why do we have the border patrol if it costs to much?
> 
> It's the same here in California, they are not allowed to properly do their jobs. The only thing our local office does is drug stops. Nothing about illegal immigration.
> 
> If more people are getting deported now more than ever, where are they getting deported from? I talk to my Mexican employees about this stuff daily. They all tell me no one is getting deported around here. Around here we also have one if the biggest communities of illegals. When things happen word gets out.
> 
> After 2009 a lot of illegals went back to Mexico because there simply wasn't work here anymore, maybe that is where they are getting their numbers from?



I think the story was they were targeting the more criminal types and quit clogging the courts with well behaved people like you were talking about.
With out clogging the courts, the courts were probably more efficiently moving people out.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> In the fifties your gov. rounded up people and just bused them across the boarder and dropped them in a desert, many died.
> As a result you have new laws on holding, before and after hearings, trial, appeals.
> As well as the international norms and treaties .
> 
> So many new court rooms trial judges, prosecutors and all that goes with that
> at what cost.    Big government.
> 
> Or throw out the laws and the international norms. MAKE AMERICA GREAT.



How much more does it cost to have these courts who are already paid a salary for their jobs do a little more? Maybe we could restructure how we do things and streamline things?

Are we supposed to be responsible for the well being of an illegal immigrant once brought back to their own country? I'm not saying just drop them ina desert but their government needs to step up at the same time we do to take care of their own.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> 71 percent of those were caught at the border trying to cross. You can count them on paper but they don't really count as illegals living here being deported. That leaves 69,000 that were deported across the US of the 11.4 million illegals they think live here and 91 percent of those were criminals that got caught by police and deported. That comes out to 6,210 illegal immigrants that were caught by Border patrol and removed from the US. We have 20,000 border patrol agents and only caught 6,210 illegals and deported them.
> 
> Just because more people are trying to cross and getting caught doesn't mean Obama should be taking credit for deporting more people than anyone else.



Did you bother to read how DHS was negotiating with states and cities for more cooperation.

Or would you have the Fed just make laws on what states and cities do.

What about state rights


----------



## Chris

When it comes to people living here illegally should we have different rules for different states? All that will do is make more sanctuary states. If we have the same rules across the board then the illegals will know these rules and no one can play dumb anymore.  If you are here illegally than you are here illegally, should there be exemptions?

Don't get me wrong there should be a gateway to citizenship but that shouldn't be getting here and having a baby.


----------



## KULTULZ

nealtw said:


> Nobody has deported more people than this administration.



 

Are you referring to this joke of the OBAMA ADMINISTRATION? 

Where in the world do you guys up there get your news (what little that is not censored)?


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> When it comes to people living here illegally should we have different rules for different states? All that will do is make more sanctuary states. If we have the same rules across the board then the illegals will know these rules and no one can play dumb anymore.  If you are here illegally than you are here illegally, should there be exemptions?
> 
> Don't get me wrong there should be a gateway to citizenship but that shouldn't be getting here and having a baby.



I think, and this only me, but if the city police find a grand mother of US born children and grandchildren and turn them over to the feds, they could fill the courts everyday, some of these people will have arguments to stay. So you fill the courts with people and plug up the systems. I suspect that DHS discovered that sanctuary cities actually allowed the courts to deal with the bad guys more efficiently. Then it is about finding the best method between the feds and the states and the cities.


----------



## KULTULZ

nealtw said:


> What about state rights



There are no state rights. That was decided in 1865.

If state and local governments don't go along with Federal policies, they risk losing funding.

It is all a racket Neal.

During the IMRACKED WAR, the military pulled border agents off the line to deploy there to limit border crossings. To hell with our southern border.

Again, illegal aliens are being allowed in for political reasons and cheap labor. It is the average Joe that is footing the bill and living in increased crime rates and squalor.

Mexico does not send their best and brightest and they surely don't want them back. Neither did Cuba years ago.


----------



## KULTULZ

> I suspect that DHS discovered that sanctuary cities actually allowed the courts to deal with the bad guys more efficiently.




...unfriggin believable...

Neal, you are one heck of a nice guy and smart as hell, but...

How many times are you planning to cross the border and vote?

It is called the *Cooke County Boogie*. Don't forget to vote, vote often and don't forget to stop at the family plot and bring all your deceased family also.


----------



## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> ...unfriggin believable...
> 
> Neal, you are one heck of a nice guy and smart as hell, but...
> 
> How many times are you planning to cross the border and vote?
> 
> It is called the *Cooke County Boogie*. Don't forget to vote, vote often and don't forget to stop at the family plot and bring all your deceased family also.



So the only way you know that is a fact, is if people were caught doing it and you don't mind quoting those cases do you.:rofl:


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> I think, and this only me, but if the city police find a grand mother of US born children and grandchildren and turn them over to the feds, they could fill the courts everyday, some of these people will have arguments to stay. So you fill the courts with people and plug up the systems. I suspect that DHS discovered that sanctuary cities actually allowed the courts to deal with the bad guys more efficiently. Then it is about finding the best method between the feds and the states and the cities.



grandma,  has no argument to stay,  she is here illegally.
she made a CONSCIOUS decision when she crossed the river she may be caught and deported at some time.
she CHOOSE to take that risk.
we have laws here in he US, her grand children IF born here can stay.
she must go,  the children are free to go with here if they wish. or suitable 
accommodations can be made for them thru child protective agency

Before you start whining about being cruel, stop and think, WHO was being cruel to have a child in another country when you are aware you can be deported. The family is causing the hard ship them selves.
it is called taking responsibilty for your actions


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> grandma,  has no argument to stay,  she is here illegally.
> she made a CONSCIOUS decision when she crossed the river she may be caught and deported at some time.
> she CHOOSE to take that risk.
> we have laws here in he US, her grand children IF born here can stay.
> she must go,  the children are free to go with here if they wish. or suitable
> accommodations can be made for them thru child protective agency



I wasn't arguing for grandma to stay, I was just saying what happens in your courts.
Do you want your ICE agents chasing grandma or criminals, well they both are but you know what I mean.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> In the fifties your gov. rounded up people and just bused them across the boarder and dropped them in a desert, many died.
> As a result you have new laws on holding, before and after hearings, trial, appeals.
> As well as the international norms and treaties .
> 
> So many new court rooms trial judges, prosecutors and all that goes with that
> at what cost.    Big government.
> 
> Or throw out the laws and the international norms. MAKE AMERICA GREAT.




why are  we responsible for what happens in mexico ?
we are not, that is not our country.

seems kind of funny to me that you say we should take care of the illegals when they come here.

but,  you do not say mexico should take care of them when they go there 

why is that ?


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> I wasn't arguing for grandma to stay, I was just saying what happens in your courts.
> Do you want your ICE agents chasing grandma or criminals, well they both are but you know what I mean.



grandma is a criminal,  there job is to chase them both


----------



## nealtw

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback


----------



## Chris

KULTULZ said:


> There are no state rights. That was decided in 1865.
> 
> If state and local governments don't go along with Federal policies, they risk losing funding.
> 
> It is all a racket Neal.
> 
> During the IMRACKED WAR, the military pulled border agents off the line to deploy there to limit border crossings. To hell with our southern border.
> 
> Again, illegal aliens are being allowed in for political reasons and cheap labor. It is the average Joe that is footing the bill and living in increased crime rates and squalor.
> 
> Mexico does not send their best and brightest and they surely don't want them back. Neither did Cuba years ago.




You are partially wrong here, they do send many of their smartest and brightest, I have met several but they all came the legal way. There still is a legal way and it is not all that hard if you start it out correctly. You have to start with not coming here illegally as that makes it almost impossible to come legally. You have to save every penny you made in Mexico to show that you can afford to be here until you find proper employment, You can't break any laws at all and you have to file paperwork and speak the language. Three of my employees came here this way that I know of. I ask them a lot of questions just to educate myself.

My grandfather is a legal immigrant, he had to join our military and give four years as part of his citizenship.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> I wasn't arguing for grandma to stay, I was just saying what happens in your courts.
> Do you want your ICE agents chasing grandma or criminals, well they both are but you know what I mean.



If Ice agents started with the criminals before chasing grandma down I doubt grandma would ever be caught. You and I both know that deportation of every person here illegally will never happen, its just not that easy. But if we change our laws now and make it less comfortable here and in no way appealing by having to look over your back everyday then maybe less would want to come here. The only way we will ever get that point across is with actions not talk. If we take all rights away from illegals than they will be forced to leave on their own. Can't be legally employed, can't rent or buy homes, can't get any sort of government assistance. Take away all the privileges and maybe they will slow down.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> If Ice agents started with the criminals before chasing grandma down I doubt grandma would ever be caught. You and I both know that deportation of every person here illegally will never happen, its just not that easy. But if we change our laws now and make it less comfortable here and in no way appealing by having to look over your back everyday then maybe less would want to come here. The only way we will ever get that point across is with actions not talk. If we take all rights away from illegals than they will be forced to leave on their own. Can't be legally employed, can't rent or buy homes, can't get any sort of government assistance. Take away all the privileges and maybe they will slow down.



Fair enough, but that's not a stroke of the pen item, there would be opposition on both sides of both houses and the courts. And if it was put into action, the cost to do it, well most of you down there won't want to pay fore it.


----------



## Chris

Really Mexico needs to work on their own government, that is why most leave. Their government is so corrupt and owned by the Cartels. It like Hillary is running the place. No really, they are just corrupt, they make no effort to build their county into something. Most officials get murdered if they try and do anything. If they fixed that then maybe people would want to stay. Schooling is not mandatory there and most don't go to school past the 4th grade. A country with a 4th grade or less education is exactly that. Crime is so bad you can not own anything there and its the police being the criminals. They are allowed to confiscate anything they want with out reason and they can accept cash on the spot for fines. I am very involved in learning how the Mexican community lives and does things. I learn these things from people that live or lived there and not news stories. I only have one employee that will even go back to mexico and that is only because his wife lives there and she doesn't have her papers yet to come here legally.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> Fair enough, but that's not a stroke of the pen item, there would be opposition on both sides of both houses and the courts. And if it was put into action, the cost to do it, well most of you down there won't want to pay fore it.



The only reason most of us don't want to pay for new things is because the old things never go away. You can't keep raising taxes for every little idea good or bad and expect people to be ok with it. We have so many ideas that just didn't work and they cancelled them but never lowered the tax back down, they just move it over to a general fund that gets spent on who knows what? If they would give back for bad ideas then we would be a lot more accepting of the new.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> The only reason most of us don't want to pay for new things is because the old things never go away. You can't keep raising taxes for every little idea good or bad and expect people to be ok with it. We have so many ideas that just didn't work and they cancelled them but never lowered the tax back down, they just move it over to a general fund that gets spent on who knows what? If they would give back for bad ideas then we would be a lot more accepting of the new.



Nobody can argue with that, that's likely true in every country.


----------



## Chris

New news?

http://www.hannity.com/articles/han...rt-indictment-likely-in-fbi-clinton-15266166/


----------



## KULTULZ

Chris said:


> You are partially wrong here, they do send many of their smartest and brightest, I have met several but *!!! they all came the legal way*!!!. There still is a legal way and it is not all that hard if you start it out correctly. You have to start with not coming here illegally as that makes it almost impossible to come legally. You have to save every penny you made in Mexico to show that you can afford to be here until you find proper employment, You can't break any laws at all and you have to file paperwork and speak the language. Three of my employees came here this way that I know of. I ask them a lot of questions just to educate myself.
> 
> My grandfather is a legal immigrant, he had to join our military and give four years as part of his citizenship.



MEXICO will not _send_ there smartest and brightest,correct. They immigrate legally.

They empty their prisons, mental facilities and send malcontents, aged and diseased.

If these people are so damn smart and resourceful, why can't they change things in their own country?


----------



## Chris

http://ijr.com/wildfire/2016/11/727...oreign-govts-and-risked-us-national-security/


----------



## Chris

http://tribunist.com/news/multiple-...ion-but-not-over-emails-video/?utm_source=MOH


----------



## Chris

Not to change the subject but what does all this new news mean for Hillary and her crew? Possible Indictment? To me any person that has the FBI saying this probably should not even be running to lead the free country? Am I delirious?


----------



## KULTULZ

Chris said:


> New news?
> 
> http://www.hannity.com/articles/han...rt-indictment-likely-in-fbi-clinton-15266166/



No, just more hopeful wishing.

Listen, Hildabeast will not be indicted and even if she would be, OBAMA would break his neck to pardon her as he is involved in this just as much as she is.. She has powerful rich backers behind her. She has this administration behind her. She has a democracy to destroy. She is running on schedule.

Something happened during the recent secretive Libya air war and the resultant Benghazi incident. Congress performed their usual dog and pony act and that phase is forgotten much like the Fast and Furious hearings having faded. 

It is one group of thieves working with another.


----------



## frodo

no, you are right.  they busted Brazel, she was giving HRC the heads up on the questions to the debate.
This whole thing makes no since to me.
When I was in the service,  I held a top secret clearance to work on the B-52, And I know for a fact the FBI protocal for being under investigation is automaticly yank your clearance,  GONE,,and then when the investigation is over,  if you were found at no fault.
you MIGHT NOT get it back.  and,  when you get out of the service, you can forget about working any job for the fed with a black mark on your clearance.

with out a clearance, she should be forced to pull out of the race,


----------



## frodo

KULTULZ said:


> No, just more hopeful wishing.
> 
> Listen, Hildabeast will not be indicted and even if she would be, OBAMA would break his neck to pardon her as he is involved in this just as much as she is.. She has powerful rich backers behind her. She has this administration behind her. She has a democracy to destroy. She is running on schedule.
> 
> Something happened during the recent secretive Libya air war and the resultant Benghazi incident. Congress performed their usual dog and pony act and that phase is forgotten much like the Fast and Furious hearings having faded.
> 
> It is one group of thieves working with another.




google united nations new world order, chase that link around and be sure to wear your tin foil hat.  it is some spooky ****


----------



## nealtw

I put on my tin hat every time you and Chris show up.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback




why are you posting a link with no verbage ?

what do you want me to do here...

my answer is      "SO !!"

or "and?"     


what does this have to do with my post ?


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> why are you posting a link with no verbage ?
> 
> what do you want me to do here...
> 
> my answer is      "SO !!"
> 
> or "and?"
> 
> 
> what does this have to do with my post ?



You seem to be somewhat interested in what I say so I figured you could read it yourself.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> In the fifties your gov. rounded up people and just bused them across the boarder and dropped them in a desert, many died.
> As a result you have new laws on holding, before and after hearings, trial, appeals.
> As well as the international norms and treaties .
> 
> So many new court rooms trial judges, prosecutors and all that goes with that
> at what cost.    Big government.
> 
> Or throw out the laws and the international norms. MAKE AMERICA GREAT.





frodo said:


> why are  we responsible for what happens in mexico ?
> we are not, that is not our country.
> 
> seems kind of funny to me that you say we should take care of the illegals when they come here.
> 
> but,  you do not say mexico should take care of them when they go there
> 
> why is that ?



I posted it again,  I think you accidentally over looked the question


----------



## frodo

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UWpNE5ElQE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UWpNE5ElQE[/ame]


----------



## nealtw

Sorry I saw it and thought I covered it.
I was just pointing out that you have laws on the books that would have to be followed, broken or removed. which would you be thinking?
Your guy is the law and order candidate.
followed, on large scale very expensive
broken, more lawsuits, bogged down in courts
Removed, bogged down in both houses.

That is what happens in your country, I doubt you want to elect a dictator with an army of brown shirts. 
Even Trump would not do that so you are stuck with the first three choices.


----------



## frodo

so i take it from your evading the question,  that you have no answer.

I do,  we do not owe the illegals nothing but a day old bologna sammich and a dixie cup of watr when we dump them at the border

when they are in mexico,  they are under mexican law and what ever they do with the illegals is that country's business.

if they leave them in the desert to die, we can send a stern letter.


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> so i take it from your evading the question,  that you have no answer.
> 
> I do,  we do not owe the illegals nothing but a day old bologna sammich and a dixie cup of watr when we dump them at the border
> 
> when they are in mexico,  they are under mexican law and what ever they do with the illegals is that country's business.
> 
> if they leave them in the desert to die, we can send a stern letter.



So it's the brown shirts then.

Think Chris and his helper are in this one.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PWN97WDfFY[/ame]


----------



## KULTULZ

*Illegal Immigration* is a Crime. Each year the  Border Patrol apprehends hundreds of thousands of aliens who flagrantly  violate our nation's laws by unlawfully crossing *U.S.* borders. Such *illegal entry* is a misdemeanor, and, if repeated after being deported, becomes punishable as a *felony*.

As soon as one of their sandals crosses the line, they are criminals.

No ifs, and's or buts.


----------



## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> *Illegal Immigration* is a Crime. Each year the  Border Patrol apprehends hundreds of thousands of aliens who flagrantly  violate our nation's laws by unlawfully crossing *U.S.* borders. Such *illegal entry* is a misdemeanor, and, if repeated after being deported, becomes punishable as a *felony*.
> 
> As soon as one of their sandals crosses the line, they are criminals.
> 
> No ifs, and's or buts.



So I gave frodo 3 choices, help your self.:thbup:


----------



## nealtw

I just don't understand you guys.

The party of law and order.

the candidate of law and order

stand on the rights of the people as long as they are rights that you use, stand for states rights until you disagree 

If you went the brown shirts way how many buses and uniforms do you need at what costs.

Giving up rights is a slippery slope, you guys have told me that more than once.


----------



## frodo

What you refuse to acknowledge, Is that they are breaking the law, 
we do not want them here.  we welcome those that come here legally but not the illegals.

our laws say an illegal must be deported, 
but the current administration does not want them deported, he wants them to vote dem. so the dem can stay in power
the gop, wants them out of here,  we want the jobs for americans,  not illegals.

we have laws that are not being followed, when trump gets in the office he will start deporting the assholes with criminal records

as far as state law and federal is concerned

The law that applies to situations where state and federal laws disagree is called the supremacy clause, which is part of article VI of the Constitution. The supremacy clause contains what's known as the doctrine of pre-emption, which says that the federal government wins in the case of conflicting legislation.

the 14th amendment gives the illegal aliens rights,  we need to repeal the language to fix this
again,  we can not do that under the current administration


----------



## nealtw

I guess you don't understand the basics I understand that they have broken a law and I have acknowledged that many times in this thread.

Do I need to repeat it in every post.

I do want you to understand that you have argued time and again that rights are important and they are built into the laws of the land.
And what you are saying about rounding people up and not deporting them because deporting has a meaning that you are not including.
You are talking about dumping people at the boarder, you have zero idea of how much that would cost, how much that would cost your country in world prestige and how many laws you are braking how many rights might be trampled 

I do not believe and neither should you believe Trump or anyone else would or ever could do that. But that is what he is implying. He is only saying that crap for you to hang your vote on.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> I just don't understand you guys.
> 
> The party of law and order.
> 
> the candidate of law and order
> 
> stand on the rights of the people as long as they are rights that you use, stand for states rights until you disagree
> 
> If you went the brown shirts way how many buses and uniforms do you need at what costs.
> 
> Giving up rights is a slippery slope, you guys have told me that more than once.



Illegals have no rights here.

Not sure if the conservative party is  the party of law and order, more of the party of lets not tax ourselves to death and really look into thing before jumping in with two feet.

I'm not sure what the Brown shirts way is? Can you explain?

The conservative party from how I see it does not believe in just raising or creating a new tax to pay for things, they believe in finding the money in other places or making cuts where cuts should have been made a long time ago. Not just take more from citizens to pay for new ideas.

On the law part I think most of what they do is to put Americans first and others second. Take care of our own before we take care of others.


----------



## KULTULZ

nealtw said:


> I just don't understand you guys.
> 
> The party of law and order.
> 
> the candidate of law and order
> 
> stand on the rights of the people as long as they are rights that you use, stand for states rights until you disagree
> 
> If you went the brown shirts way how many buses and uniforms do you need at what costs.
> 
> Giving up rights is a slippery slope, you guys have told me that more than once.



Exactly what is you are trying to convey? I have no idea. What rights are being supposedly stifled.

Referring to a group as brown shirts or Nazi's is a very unfair/uncaring comparison. That is an evil part of history that needs to be forgotten other than the basic knowledge of it so as to not being allowed again.

The direction this country is going is Socialism and you should be very familiar with that. The *majority* of citizenry here wants no part of it.


----------



## KULTULZ

nealtw said:


> You are talking about dumping people at the boarder, you have zero idea of how much that would cost, how much that would cost your country in world prestige and how many laws you are braking how many rights might be trampled



How much is it costing our welfare system to support them, our judicial system to manage them and the misery in crime they generate?

GOOGLE- crimes committed by illegal immigrants statistics

As for what the world thinks, they can kiss my Lilly white patootie. I am tired of supporting the world (or subjecting it to US policies). Uncle Sugar (and his taxpayers) are exhausted.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> I guess you don't understand the basics I understand that they have broken a law and I have acknowledged that many times in this thread.
> 
> Do I need to repeat it in every post.
> 
> I do want you to understand that you have argued time and again that rights are important and they are built into the laws of the land.
> And what you are saying about rounding people up and not deporting them because deporting has a meaning that you are not including.
> You are talking about dumping people at the boarder, you have zero idea of how much that would cost, how much that would cost your country in world prestige and how many laws you are braking how many rights might be trampled
> 
> I do not believe and neither should you believe Trump or anyone else would or ever could do that. But that is what he is implying. He is only saying that crap for you to hang your vote on.





my turn to be clear.
Evidently you missed the verbage I typed out earlier.

when trump comes into the white house we will deport the illegal aliens in the prisons, jails, half way houses, 
the first go will be criminals.  They will get a fair hearing with a court appointed representative
then they will get on a bus and get the hell out.

For the ones in jail,  i see no reason to hold individual hearings
we can do it in mass,  

then a wall will be started.

after the criminals are gone and the wall under way,

each and every illegal can get a hearing,,line em up and read them their rights..
100 at a time.

while this is going on, the 14th amendment needs to be reworded to exclude
anyone but citixens




the cost ?   It cost north or 20 grand  each, to give the social benefits

I think we can handle this.  IT will happen,  some things are worth the extra you pay.
taking back our country is one of those things


----------



## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> Exactly what is you are trying to convey? I have no idea. What rights are being supposedly stifled.
> 
> Referring to a group as brown shirts or Nazi's is a very unfair/uncaring comparison. That is an evil part of history that needs to be forgotten other than the basic knowledge of it so as to not being allowed again.
> 
> The direction this country is going is Socialism and you should be very familiar with that. The *majority* of citizenry here wants no part of it.



So I take it history is so ugly you want nothing to do with it. So you would be surprised if some one told you that history ignored is repeated.

The other day Trump was going off on international money lenders. You tell me, was he talking about regulating them or was he just pulling from speeches out of that history.

You have never read speeches made in the 1930s have you.


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> my turn to be clear.
> Evidently you missed the verbage I typed out earlier.
> 
> when trump comes into the white house we will deport the illegal aliens in the prisons, jails, half way houses,
> the first go will be criminals.  They will get a fair hearing with a court appointed representative
> then they will get on a bus and get the hell out.
> 
> For the ones in jail,  i see no reason to hold individual hearings
> we can do it in mass,
> 
> then a wall will be started.
> 
> after the criminals are gone and the wall under way,
> 
> each and every illegal can get a hearing,,line em up and read them their rights..
> 100 at a time.
> 
> while this is going on, the 14th amendment needs to be reworded to exclude
> anyone but citixens
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the cost ?   It cost north or 20 grand  each, to give the social benefits
> 
> I think we can handle this.  IT will happen,  some things are worth the extra you pay.
> taking back our country is one of those things



So let's go over the math. a quick look and a bunch of people are saying 5B to 6B, I wouldn't know.
So they do come there to work but as you say some are on welfare, there must be a percentage we could use..

20 grand each, I doubt that but with the bureaucrats and their costs maybe.

The BUT is, have you heard Trump say there would be hearings. That is the kind of thing I have been listening for and I may have missed it but I don't remember him saying it.

I did try to find it.
https://www.google.ca/search?num=20.....1c.1.64.serp..0.2.134...30i10k1.woAQay-VJXE


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Illegals have no rights here.
> 
> Not sure if the conservative party is  the party of law and order, more of the party of lets not tax ourselves to death and really look into thing before jumping in with two feet.
> 
> I'm not sure what the Brown shirts way is? Can you explain?
> 
> The conservative party from how I see it does not believe in just raising or creating a new tax to pay for things, they believe in finding the money in other places or making cuts where cuts should have been made a long time ago. Not just take more from citizens to pay for new ideas.
> 
> On the law part I think most of what they do is to put Americans first and others second. Take care of our own before we take care of others.



https://www.google.ca/search?num=20...i155k1j0i131i46k1j46i131k1j0i46k1.maB4FF9YoWE


So you think you will have lower taxes under Trump:rofl:


----------



## nealtw

http://www.breitbart.com/video/2016...gop-looks-like-berlin-may-1945-post-election/


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> https://www.google.ca/search?num=20...i155k1j0i131i46k1j46i131k1j0i46k1.maB4FF9YoWE
> 
> 
> So you think you will have lower taxes under Trump:rofl:



I think I will have a better chance at lower taxes with him instead of hillary. I doubt taxes will go down because they never do. Just hoping they don't go up.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> I think I will have a better chance at lower taxes with him instead of hillary. I doubt taxes will go down because they never do. Just hoping they don't go up.



Do your research, some will go down but yours go up, go figure.

He did say the uneducated were his favorite.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> Do your research, some will go down but yours go up, go figure.
> 
> He did say the uneducated were his favorite.



http://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/us-immigration/deportation-removal-proceedings.html


we have a constitution Neal, Trump has not said there will be hearings because it is understood there will be.

most will just sign a voluntary return and skip the hearing


----------



## frodo

I looked up some numbers,  average household  of illegal aliens  receive in benefit amount
46,582  plus  12,300 each child in school ,  average houehold is 2 chiodren
71,182 receives in benefits,  average tax owed  11,469.    $59,713 in tax payer benefits per illegal allien household


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> http://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/us-immigration/deportation-removal-proceedings.html
> 
> 
> we have a constitution Neal, Trump has not said there will be hearings because it is understood there will be.
> 
> most will just sign a voluntary return and skip the hearing



That, is not what you understood earlier this week and I am glad you got there,
what does Trump understand?


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> I looked up some numbers,  average household  of illegal aliens  receive in benefit amount
> 46,582  plus  12,300 each child in school ,  average houehold is 2 chiodren
> 71,182 receives in benefits,  average tax owed  11,469.    $59,713 in tax payer benefits per illegal allien household



If this is true I would be upset too, as welfare is a state deal, who votes for these guys?


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> That, is not what you understood earlier this week and I am glad you got there,
> what does Trump understand?



i have always understood that Neal,  I never said to send them with out a hearing.


post the quote,  their isnt one


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> If this is true I would be upset too, as welfare is a state deal, who votes for these guys?




damn,,democrats,,,they give **** away, that is why they want more illegals
so the voter base will be inslaved by welfare..so they stay in power

are you catching on now ?


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> damn,,democrats,,,they give **** away, that is why they want more illegals
> so the voter base will be inslaved by welfare..so they stay in power
> 
> are you catching on now ?



Your state gov. is Dems?


----------



## nealtw

.................


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> i have always understood that Neal,  I never said to send them with out a hearing.
> 
> 
> post the quote,  their isnt one



so i take it from your evading the question, that you have no answer.

I do, we do not owe the illegals nothing but a day old bologna sammich and a dixie cup of watr when we dump them at the border

when they are in mexico, they are under mexican law and what ever they do with the illegals is that country's business.

if they leave them in the desert to die, we can send a stern letter.
__________________


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> I looked up some numbers,  average household  of illegal aliens  receive in benefit amount
> 46,582  plus  12,300 each child in school ,  average houehold is 2 chiodren
> 71,182 receives in benefits,  average tax owed  11,469.    $59,713 in tax payer benefits per illegal allien household



http://cis.org/Cost-Welfare-Immigrant-Native-Households
You might find this interesting

Then here the same people explain why you might not to give them citizenship as then they would get welfare.
http://cis.org/Welfare-Use-Legal-Illegal-Immigrant-Households

I think they show that they  do get some like food stamps, but the numbers you quoted or a little out.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> http://cis.org/Cost-Welfare-Immigrant-Native-Households
> You might find this interesting
> 
> Then here the same people explain why you might not to give them citizenship as then they would get welfare.
> http://cis.org/Welfare-Use-Legal-Illegal-Immigrant-Households
> 
> I think they show that they  do get some like food stamps, but the numbers you quoted or a little out.



http://amac.us/illegal-immigration-cost-1/

the total i gave is not just food stamps,other services they enjoy, have to e paid also

for U.S. taxpayers. Government provides four types of benefits and services that are relevant to this issue:

Direct benefits. These include Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance, and workers compensation.
Means-tested welfare benefits. There are over 80 of these programs which, at a cost of nearly $900 billion per year, provide cash, food, housing, medical, and other services to roughly 100 million low-income Americans. Major programs include Medicaid, food stamps, the refundable Earned Income Tax Credit, public housing, Supplemental Security Income, and Temporary Assistance for Needy Families.
Public education. At a cost of $12,300 per pupil per year, these services are largely free or heavily subsidized for low-income parents.
Population-based services. Police, fire, highways, parks, and similar services, as the National Academy of Sciences determined in its study of the fiscal costs of immigration, generally have to expand as new immigrants enter a community; someone has to bear the cost of that expansion.


----------



## nealtw

Okay I see those numbers and I think I can figure how they got there, but how do they change when 12 m people are removed. True there are great welfare costs but some of the expenses they sited are fixed and now you have to divide them by a smaller number so it may or may not go down. So then you might have a number you might say is a saving and could be compared to the 5 b or 6 b it would cost to remove them.

I doubt there would be preference for those on welfare and some are working. If the are work with fake ID they are paying payroll deductions with out benefit for that. We would have to count that at a loss to the gov.

The other is true loosing a lot of people out of the low earning sector will drive the cost of labour up and then there will be a call for more legals to come in.


----------



## KULTULZ

If they are working with either good or fraudulent ID, they pay no FED or State/Local Income Tax as they jack up their W-4 dependents claim to anywhere they please. They may pay FICA and MED, but the EIC they get for twelve kids far outweighs that.

And that is only if they haven't figured out identity theft yet or are being paid under the table.

How about this?

If you feel so damn sorry for this bunch, why don't you send over annually one or two thousand dollars (US) to help support them?

You are a devout Socialist and I am sure Hildabeast would welcome it.


----------



## KULTULZ

nealtw said:


> The other is true loosing a lot of people out of the low earning sector will drive the cost of labour up and then there will be a call for more legals to come in.



Having to pay a days' fair wage for a day's honest work?

Lenin is spinning in his grave... :rofl:


----------



## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> Having to pay a days' fair wage for a day's honest work?
> 
> Lenin is spinning in his grave... :rofl:



You do have to look at all costs savings and expenses to figure if there eve would be a long term saving. The trouble with us in the hinter land is what numbers to believe and how to apply them fairly.

If you do find an expert that has figured it out do believe them as most time it will be one side or other.

Other than Trump both sides have always talked like it would be better to work something out for them to stay so I would think they have looked at the numbers and came to that conclusion.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> You do have to look at all costs savings and expenses to figure if there eve would be a long term saving. The trouble with us in the hinter land is what numbers to believe and how to apply them fairly.
> 
> If you do find an expert that has figured it out do believe them as most time it will be one side or other.
> 
> Other than Trump both sides have always talked like it would be better to work something out for them to stay so I would think they have looked at the numbers and came to that conclusion.




I think your statement is very two faced.


you say fairly ?  

then you say "work something out"  wth?  how about the thousands that have waited years to enter LEGALLY ?  do they get push away so we can "work something out"
what about the citizen who needs that job the illegal has ?
is it fair to him ?

"fair"   is to deport every single illegal alien and let them apply for citizenship like they should have done in the first place.
"fair"  is to put those that are legally applying ahead of anyone else
"fair"  is kates law
"fair"  is the complete stop to any federal funds to sanctuary cities
         and stop any and all federal work to be done in that city
          ie..mail,


----------



## nealtw

I'am two faced, ah, sure that works for me.


----------



## buffalo

nealtw said:


> I'am two faced, ah, sure that works for me.



Talking politics is like talking religion , I'm not gonna do it , not on a phone anyway :rofl:. TRUMPH  is an arrogant Ahole , but he is the last chance for America . Both party's are corrupt , he is the one guy who needs no buy out .


----------



## nealtw

If  this isn't against anyones religion it is a good read.
http://michaelmoore.com/trumpwillwin/


----------



## oldognewtrick

Neal, if I show up Monday morning in downtown British Columbia with no documentation, what will happen? Can I get food stamps, housing, free medical, free phone? Do I have to pay taxes? This is a serious question, cause I have no idea the policies of the Canadian govt.


----------



## nealtw

oldognewtrick said:


> Neal, if I show up Monday morning in downtown British Columbia with no documentation, what will happen? Can I get food stamps, housing, free medical, free phone? Do I have to pay taxes? This is a serious question, cause I have no idea the policies of the Canadian govt.



I really don't know, nobody is complaining about it here. I think you get some help if they believe your life is in danger at home. I think while you wait for hearings you might be allowed to work sometimes.


----------



## nealtw

It is hard to compare the two countries and even for a right winger it is hard to hear some of the arguments you guys have because some of the gov. systems you fight about are running fine hear and neither side would touch them 
I am sure I could find numbers for all our systems but again for me to judge them, not sure I would get realistic answers for what is saved or wasted.

Things do change a little with the different parties when they change who is in charge but generally people just adjust to the system that is in effect and say we will get them next time.

The problem is we complain as much about our guy as much as we complain about the other guy, just different complaints. But let's face it we all just want it all.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> I'am two faced, ah, sure that works for me.



I said..YOUR statement is 2 faced,   I did not say YOU were 2 faced


stop being butt hurtted


----------



## oldognewtrick

nealtw said:


> But let's face it we all just want it all.



No, we don't want it all, we just want what is outlined in the constitution. We just want the chance. There is no guarantee's, just opportunities. 

If you want to head down the road that we've been put on, if you think the legacy of the last 8 years is the way to go, vote for Hillary. If you want the slightest chance of preserving the society we've all had the honor of living in, vote for the other guy...its just that simple.


----------



## frodo

oldognewtrick said:


> No, we don't want it all, we just want what is outlined in the constitution. We just want the chance. There is no guarantee's, just opportunities.
> 
> If you want to head down the road that we've been put on, if you think the legacy of the last 8 years is the way to go, vote for Hillary. If you want the slightest chance of preserving the society we've all had the honor of living in, vote for the other guy...its just that simple.


...................


----------



## zannej

I don't think that Hillary will actually be indicted. She will likely throw someone else under the bus before that happens. She really does have too much power.

I need to dig up my Retired Border Patrol newsletters that I get in the mail. My father got a free subscription when he retired and we still get them sometimes. I know that when my father was in INS he used to give the illegals an opportunity to return to their own countries willingly and they would not be charged with any crimes. He educated them on how to enter the country legally. He also cracked down on lawyers who were charging more than legally allowed for helping to fill out paperwork to apply to enter and cracked down on people who were not lawyers who claimed to be ones and were charging potential legal immigrants up the wazoo to help with paperwork. The sad thing is, a lot of immigrants are ignorant of the legal avenues to enter-- but there are a lot who just don't want to take the time or don't want to pay the fees involved (and it can be very expensive). But, that is where charity groups and churches come in. They can help fundraise to pay for the paperwork and such. But, one of the things they have to prove to immigrate is that they can support themselves without being on public assistance (or can get money from family members and they promise to not get on public assistance). 

On a side note, has anyone heard about the last minute "challenges" to people's voting eligibility? A friend of mine in NC who is registered as Republican just got a letter informing him that he is not allowed to vote because of an alleged discrepancy in his address. He has lived in the same place for the past 12 years and hasn't changed his address on file. He voted in the last presidential election but is being blocked from voting this time. He didn't get the notice until after the deadline to register, so he can't go and register now. He said it happened to thousands of people in NC. I find it very disturbing that people can be stopped from voting for BS reasons like that.


----------



## oldognewtrick

zannej said:


> On a side note, has anyone heard about the last minute "challenges" to people's voting eligibility? A friend of mine in NC who is registered as Republican just got a letter informing him that he is not allowed to vote because of an alleged discrepancy in his address. He has lived in the same place for the past 12 years and hasn't changed his address on file. He voted in the last presidential election but is being blocked from voting this time. He didn't get the notice until after the deadline to register, so he can't go and register now. He said it happened to thousands of people in NC. I find it very disturbing that people can be stopped from voting for BS reasons like that.



I believe this to be as legit as the stupid lady that calls and wants to lower my credit card rates....I don't have any....


----------



## KULTULZ

zannej said:


> I find it very disturbing that people can be stopped from voting for BS reasons like that.



The Democratic establishment has been doing similar things for over a hundred years. And this surprises you?


----------



## frodo

zannej said:


> I don't think that Hillary will actually be indicted. She will likely throw someone else under the bus before that happens. She really does have too much power.
> 
> I need to dig up my Retired Border Patrol newsletters that I get in the mail. My father got a free subscription when he retired and we still get them sometimes. I know that when my father was in INS he used to give the illegals an opportunity to return to their own countries willingly and they would not be charged with any crimes. He educated them on how to enter the country legally. He also cracked down on lawyers who were charging more than legally allowed for helping to fill out paperwork to apply to enter and cracked down on people who were not lawyers who claimed to be ones and were charging potential legal immigrants up the wazoo to help with paperwork. The sad thing is, a lot of immigrants are ignorant of the legal avenues to enter-- but there are a lot who just don't want to take the time or don't want to pay the fees involved (and it can be very expensive). But, that is where charity groups and churches come in. They can help fundraise to pay for the paperwork and such. But, one of the things they have to prove to immigrate is that they can support themselves without being on public assistance (or can get money from family members and they promise to not get on public assistance).
> 
> On a side note, has anyone heard about the last minute "challenges" to people's voting eligibility? A friend of mine in NC who is registered as Republican just got a letter informing him that he is not allowed to vote because of an alleged discrepancy in his address. He has lived in the same place for the past 12 years and hasn't changed his address on file. He voted in the last presidential election but is being blocked from voting this time. He didn't get the notice until after the deadline to register, so he can't go and register now. He said it happened to thousands of people in NC. I find it very disturbing that people can be stopped from voting for BS reasons like that.




tell your friend to go vote,  if anyone tries to stop him,
inform them it is your constitutional right to vote.
if they still object,  call a news crew, and ask again on camera


----------



## KULTULZ

Originally Posted by *zannej* 

 
_
I find it very disturbing that people can be stopped from voting for BS reasons like that._




KULTULZ said:


> The Democratic establishment has been doing similar things for over a hundred years. And this surprises you?



It is not so much as BS as the timing. They broke the law. Whether REP or DEM, they broke the law.

-*
Judge orders North Carolina counties to restore thousands to voter rolls-*


----------



## KULTULZ

frodo said:


> tell your friend to go vote,  if anyone tries to stop him,
> inform them it is your constitutional right to vote.
> 
> if they still object,  call a news crew, and ask again on camera



And they will still say no as he/she/it/mutant is not properly registered.




> Published November 05, 2016 Dis-Associated and De-Pressed
> 
> RALEIGH, N.C. &#8211;  A federal judge ordered three North Carolina counties to restore thousands of voter registrations canceled too close to Election Day after the NAACP sued over the removals.
> 
> U.S. District Judge Loretta Biggs issued the preliminary injunction Friday after an emergency hearing earlier in the week on NAACP allegations that those counties &#8212; and possibly others &#8212; purged voter rolls through a process disproportionately targeting blacks.
> 
> Biggs said the three counties must restore voter registrations canceled in the 90 days preceding the election because of a *federal law prohibiting blanket removals that close to Election Day*. She concluded that Cumberland, Beaufort and Moore counties had gone about "systematically purging between 3,500 and 4,000 voters from registration rolls" since August.
> 
> Early voting ends Saturday in the critical swing state, which the NAACP has previously sued over other voter access issues.
> 
> The voters' names were removed through challenges filed by activists, which the NAACP said was illegal because of the proximity to the election. Challengers in Moore and Cumberland counties include volunteers with the Voter Integrity Project, a group that says it aims to guard against voter fraud.


----------



## oldognewtrick

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Repair1478392471.593301.jpg

..........


----------



## buffalo

The whole illegal immigration topic......we are a nation of laws , why have laws if we don't follow them ? If we as a nation believe some laws are unjust , then we should change them .as of now thier illegal.  But this is such small potatoes in the grand scheme of this election.

   What I find amazing is the corruption of the Clintons . Hillary has been made rich through the Saudis . Wether it's "pay for play " or any other schemes going on . It's fact that the Saudis fund ISIS , they also pay the Clintons , and dint hillary just push the largest arms sale ever , 80 billion dollars , to the Saudis ?


----------



## frodo

buffalo said:


> The whole illegal immigration topic......we are a nation of laws , why have laws if we don't follow them ? If we as a nation believe some laws are unjust , then we should change them .as of now thier illegal.  But this is such small potatoes in the grand scheme of this election.
> 
> What I find amazing is the corruption of the Clintons . Hillary has been made rich through the Saudis . Wether it's "pay for play " or any other schemes going on . It's fact that the Saudis fund ISIS , they also pay the Clintons , and dint hillary just push the largest arms sale ever , 80 billion dollars , to the Saudis ?



i am not worried about that slippery snake shrillery,  she is going to loose tuesday, she knows it


----------



## havasu

I drove by a Trump rally in my city yesterday. It was huge! I did see an African American lady driving by in her 1990 Volvo flipping everyone off as she was yelling "F*** Trump!" I guess her Obammie phones will be disconnected soon, along with her Free housing (Section 8) her free child care, her free groceries, her free Government credit cards. Yeah, she may have to finally put her blunts down and go get a job for once.


----------



## buffalo

havasu said:


> I drove by a Trump rally in my city yesterday. It was huge! I did see an African American lady driving by in her 1990 Volvo flipping everyone off as she was yelling "F*** Trump!" I guess her Obammie phones will be disconnected soon, along with her Free housing (Section 8) her free child care, her free groceries, her free Government credit cards. Yeah, she may have to finally put her blunts down and go get a job for once.



It's not free , you and I pay for it .


----------



## havasu

buffalo said:


> It's not free , you and I pay for it .



I was thinking this same thing when Killary came out with her "free" college for everyone. :help:


----------



## slownsteady

havasu said:


> I drove by a Trump rally in my city yesterday. It was huge! I did see an African American lady driving by in her 1990 Volvo flipping everyone off as she was yelling "F*** Trump!" I guess her Obammie phones will be disconnected soon, along with her Free housing (Section 8) her free child care, her free groceries, her free Government credit cards. Yeah, she may have to finally put her blunts down and go get a job for once.


Your prejudices are showing. For all you know she could be a corporate vice president.


----------



## oldognewtrick

slownsteady said:


> Your prejudices are showing. For all you know she could be a corporate vice president.




Not driving a 90's Volvo.


----------



## frodo

uh well hell, no self respecting chicken head hood rat would ride a volvo
that bessssssss a cracker Kah'ra.  oh noooo, it gotta besssss a P.O.N.T.I.A.C


----------



## buffalo

havasu said:


> I was thinking this same thing when Killary came out with her "free" college for everyone. :help:



Not sure hillary said that , I could be wrong . That was sanders , good man , but a total socialist.


----------



## buffalo

slownsteady said:


> Your prejudices are showing. For all you know she could be a corporate vice president.



So , would you have the same response if he said white? Insert any other race into that quote and your a racist .


----------



## havasu

Yeah, I'd like to retract my statement....

...however anyone idiot who drives around a rally flipping everyone off and telling everyone f*** you is kinda prejudiced themselves, don't ya think?


----------



## frodo

I drove by a Trump rally in my city yesterday. It was huge! I did see an n  WHITE  lady driving by in her 1990 Volvo flipping everyone off as she was yelling "F*** Trump!" I guess her Obammie phones will be disconnected soon, along with her Free housing (Section 8) her free child care, her free groceries, her free Government credit cards. Yeah, she may have to finally put her blunts down and go get a job for once.



Your prejudices are showing. For all you know she could be a corporate vice president.


are you saying if we take out africa american  and put in white...he would be prejudice ?

looks the same to me,  please elaborate [ i gave 36 cents for that word]


----------



## Chris

Its to dangerous to be an open Trump supporter here in California, you will get jumped by those peaceful Hillary supporters. Can't wait til Wednesday just to not see people getting beat up because they are not Liberals.


----------



## havasu

You'd be pissed as well if they took all that free money from you and you finally had to earn your money Chris.


----------



## Chris

I like my free money, just wish I could keep some of it.


----------



## nealtw

......................


----------



## oldognewtrick

Neal, our dislike of Hillary does not mean we are against women in the Oval Office. We are against that woman in the Oval Office. It's the dishonesty, corruption, lies, cover ups, foundations, the selling of our nation to foreign governments we're against. Knowing all we know about her and Bill since they were in the Governors mansion in Arkansas, I can't believe anyone in their right mind can condone their actions. It's not a conservative/liberal choice, it's a right or wrong on her part choice.

I have no problem with a qualified woman or a person of color being President, I have a problem with people running for office when they should be preparing a legal defense in Federal Court.

And no, Trump wasn't my first, second or third choice, but he's better than the other option. People complain about Government all the time. Well now's a chance for an outsider to come in and shake up the entrenched bureaucracy that prevails in Washington.


----------



## nealtw

oldognewtrick said:


> Neal, our dislike of Hillary does not mean we are against women in the Oval Office. We are against that woman in the Oval Office. It's the dishonesty, corruption, lies, cover ups, foundations, the selling of our nation to foreign governments we're against. Knowing all we know about her and Bill since they were in the Governors mansion in Arkansas, I can't believe anyone in their right mind can condone their actions. It's not a conservative/liberal choice, it's a right or wrong on her part choice.
> 
> I have no problem with a qualified woman or a person of color being President, I have a problem with people running for office when they should be preparing a legal defense in Federal Court.
> 
> And no, Trump wasn't my first, second or third choice, but he's better than the other option. People complain about Government all the time. Well now's a chance for an outsider to come in and shake up the entrenched bureaucracy that prevails in Washington.



And he would have had a chance if women could not vote.


----------



## nealtw

This is what I was talking about last weeks before you guys started talking about how high the weeds are.

http://www.reuters.com/article/uk-global-forex-idUSKBN13112T


----------



## slownsteady

With the election only a day away, I truly hope that no matter who wins we here on this forum put politics behind us and remain friends and get back to helping each other out.:wavingflag::canadaflag:


----------



## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> With the election only a day away, I truly hope that no matter who wins we here on this forum put politics behind us and remain friends and get back to helping each other out.:wavingflag::canadaflag:



Dreamer.........


----------



## frodo

Neal my family back to before the civil war,  some used to be democrats,  but they all voted gop mail in ballot



just kidding.....lol..but that is our family cemetary


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> Neal my family back to before the civil war,  some used to be democrats,  but they all voted gop mail in ballot



You and I both know how ludicrous that argument is.
Anyone using that to decide how the vote is just dumb.:down:


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> You and I both know how ludicrous that argument is.
> Anyone using that to decide how the vote is just dumb.:down:



what is the difference in dead bodies voting or 60,000 pardoned inmates ?
or 2 or 3 million illegals  ?
http://dailycaller.com/2016/11/06/exclusive-virginia-gov-pardons-60000-felons-enough-to-swing-election/
I really do not see a difference,  right is right and wrong is wrong


----------



## nealtw

Proof would make a difference. Unless there is proof it is just dumb BS

You are not saying anything good about those GOP run elections in states the Trump needs to win.


----------



## Chris

I've learned a lot about our system this election period.

I learned that I can drink and drive and as long as I did not intend to do it there is no crime and I can not be arrested.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> I've learned a lot about our system this election period.
> 
> I learned that I can drink and drive and as long as I did not intend to do it there is no crime and I can not be arrested.



Do you know what British common law is or down there it might be known more as just common law.


----------



## Chris

Not sure what you are saying? Only thing going referred to as common law that I know of is marraige


----------



## nealtw

Common laws are the old British laws that your founding fathers thought were good and kept them in place, while not always in your constitution but are accepted as law.
They are as important as anything in your constitution to keep your country running.
Quoting what was found to be true in another court  is also common law.
So you are supporting a guy or a group of people that would throw out the most important of them all.
innocent until proven guilty
There is no doubt that the very best have tried to find some way to do what ever with Hillary so either the very best are not that good or there was no there there.

There is a reason why everyone dealing with a suspect says things like alleged, suspected or accused or charged. The reason they do that is because if the suspect is found not guilty they could find themselves in court over a slander suite. Would you have your country do away with those safeguards. That would certainly shake things up, but I doubt it would make it great.


----------



## Chris

I was more referring to how the rich or popular can get away with things us common folk can not.


----------



## havasu

This is my question....


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> I was more referring to how the rich or popular can get away with things us common folk can not.



You were just repeating the BS somehow thinking I will believe the it Or justifying what you want to do. Doesn't change the fact when you repeat a slander you are committing slander.  So much for law and order.

Same thing I said to frodo, if you think I am that dumb, you are that dumb.


----------



## Chris

The Liberals will say there was nothing there new to look at and the Republicans will say they didn't do their job. I think they just did a half asses job and skipped over things. This country is doomed no matter which way things go.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> You were just repeating the BS somehow thinking I will believe the it Or justifying what you want to do. Doesn't change the fact when you repeat a slander you are committing slander.  So much for law and order.
> 
> Same thing I said to frodo, if you think I am that dumb, you are that dumb.



I'm not sure why you think this. I woke up this morning and thought to myself while thinking about the Clinton Email scandal that they can not prove intent so therefore she is innocent of any crime. Now if she intended to use a different server and send all those emails she would be facing prison but since it was an accident and she is too dumb to know the difference than she is innocent. Why would things be different for me? If I went to the bar and got drunk thus making me dumb and I drove home and got pulled over, I didn't intend to drive after drinking but I am just not smart enough to know better should I be arrested? I broke the law just like Hillary but just like Hillary I did not intend to do it so I should be let go correct?

I am pretty sure this is not "The BS" but more of the truth but I could be wrong? I guess if you don't agree it is pure BS?


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> The Liberals will say there was nothing there new to look at and the Republicans will say they didn't do their job. I think they just did a half asses job and skipped over things. This country is doomed no matter which way things go.



That is a fair argument and there are things it I can agree with while there also things I disagree with, but I am finding harder to discuss anything that reverts to a BS argument that you gays know or should know are not true.
It makes me feel like you guys think I am stupid...

And now I will answer in kind.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> That is a fair argument and there are things it I can agree with while there also things I disagree with, but I am finding harder to discuss anything that reverts to a BS argument that you gays know or should know are not true.
> It makes me feel like you guys think I am stupid...
> 
> And now I will answer in kind.



I don't think you are stupid at all, I just think you repeat a lot of the typical BS the Liberal side keeps repeating just like we keep repeating the BS the right side talks about. People believe what they want. I am pretty sure everyone in this thread has done plenty of research to come up with what they find to be true and correct. We all don't have to agree on everything and if we did things would probably go downhill. The reason we have to discussions is to educate ourselves, if not on the issues at hand but to how the other side thinks, it is a different mentality no matter how you look at it.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> Proof would make a difference. Unless there is proof it is just dumb BS
> 
> You are not saying anything good about those GOP run elections in states the Trump needs to win.




AHHHHH.  Proof,  yes indeedy dee dee..as in voter ID.

that would put a stop to all kinds of shenanigans


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> That is a fair argument and there are things it I can agree with while there also things I disagree with, but I am finding harder to discuss anything that reverts to a BS argument that you *gays* know or should know are not true.
> It makes me feel like you guys think I am stupid...
> 
> And now I will answer in kind.



Did you just call me Gay?


----------



## Chris

frodo said:


> AHHHHH.  Proof,  yes indeedy dee dee..as in voter ID.
> 
> that would put a stop to all kinds of shenanigans



It would be nice if you actually had to swipe your id to vote, not just show up with one. Will make it harder to bring a fake.


----------



## havasu

Hmm, maybe this is the concern of some of our viewers?


----------



## Chris

havasu said:


> Hmm, maybe this is the concern of some of our viewers?



That would be like me moving from California to California, not interested.


----------



## bud16415

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1yTYR3isi8[/ame]


----------



## frodo

Chris said:


> It would be nice if you actually had to swipe your id to vote, not just show up with one. Will make it harder to bring a fake.



that is i would like to see, proof of citenship id  picture, chip, thumb print


----------



## havasu

Obama condoning illegals to vote? Maybe he is aware that if Trump gets elected, he could be sharing the cell next to Hillary?

http://www.wnd.com/2016/11/obama-encourages-illegal-aliens-to-vote/#rphmjjrt06eBV9ue.99


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> I don't think you are stupid at all, I just think you repeat a lot of the typical BS the Liberal side keeps repeating just like we keep repeating the BS the right side talks about. People believe what they want. I am pretty sure everyone in this thread has done plenty of research to come up with what they find to be true and correct. We all don't have to agree on everything and if we did things would probably go downhill. The reason we have to discussions is to educate ourselves, if not on the issues at hand but to how the other side thinks, it is a different mentality no matter how you look at it.



Under standing your laws is not repeating a party line.
Understanding what happens to markets all over the world is not repeating a party line.
Understanding a collapse in world markets will do nothing for your trade free or not. 

Understanding that less trade means less jobs is what?
A while ago you complained about two gays kissing in public and how to explain that to your kids. That might be tricky for any of us when we are not really comfortable but it is a fact of life. Your kids will grow up and win or loose Trump will be in the history books and discussions, now think about the questions they could ask why you voted for him. 
It is not some party BS to listen to everything he has said.

This election isn't about party it is a choice between more of the same, good or bad or shaken, good luck with that.


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> AHHHHH.  Proof,  yes indeedy dee dee..as in voter ID.
> 
> that would put a stop to all kinds of shenanigans



Does anyone look for a solution to the problem.
Not sure what the law is down there but up here it is the law to answer census.
Census takers can't be sure they are getting good info either.
Give them a camera and take the information, take the picture.
Then the government can check the facts and check for photo for duplicates send everyone an ID card.

Most of the people live in states that complain about this, why don't they really solve it. You and I both know why.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> Under standing your laws is not repeating a party line.
> Understanding what happens to markets all over the world is not repeating a party line.
> Understanding a collapse in world markets will do nothing for your trade free or not.
> 
> Understanding that less trade means less jobs is what?
> A while ago you complained about two gays kissing in public and how to explain that to your kids. That might be tricky for any of us when we are not really comfortable but it is a fact of life. Your kids will grow up and win or loose Trump will be in the history books and discussions, now think about the questions they could ask why you voted for him.
> It is not some party BS to listen to everything he has said.
> 
> This election isn't about party it is a choice between more of the same, good or bad or shaken, good luck with that.



http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html

you have this election all wrong. this election is about which way our nation will go in the coming years.socialiest  or continue as a republic
I think what you need to understand us, is to read the difference in a democratic government as opposed to a republic.
we are a republic.  that is what we are voting on,
 In a Democracy, The Individual, and any group of Individuals composing any Minority, have no protection against the unlimited power of The Majority. It is a case of Majority-over-Man.

A Republic, on the other hand, has a very different purpose and an entirely different form, or system, of government. Its purpose is to control The Majority strictly, as well as all others among the people, primarily to protect The Individuals God-given, unalienable rights and therefore for the protection of the rights of The Minority, of all minorities, and the liberties of people in general. The definition of a Republic is: a constitutionally limited government of the representative type, created by a written Constitution--adopted by the people and changeable (from its original meaning) by them only by its amendment--with its powers divided between three separate Branches: Executive, Legislative and Judicial. Here the term "the people" means, of course, the electorate.


when you figure out which side you are for, let me know.
I am a republican  or for a republic

clinton is against every thing I believe.
the gop, has ceased to follow the republic beliefs and are leaning left.

along comes Trump, he wants to bring the country back to the right
to the republic.  do you understand  =?  the gop is dead and gone
they just refuse to let go,  Trump is going to drain the swamp
get rid of the professional pigs getting fat at the trough of the tax payer


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> Under standing your laws is not repeating a party line.
> Understanding what happens to markets all over the world is not repeating a party line.
> Understanding a collapse in world markets will do nothing for your trade free or not.
> 
> Understanding that less trade means less jobs is what?
> A while ago you complained about two gays kissing in public and how to explain that to your kids. That might be tricky for any of us when we are not really comfortable but it is a fact of life. Your kids will grow up and win or loose Trump will be in the history books and discussions, now think about the questions they could ask why you voted for him.
> It is not some party BS to listen to everything he has said.
> 
> This election isn't about party it is a choice between more of the same, good or bad or shaken, good luck with that.



My kids would have no idea I voted for him unless I told them ten years from now and even then I will educate them on Hillary and all her crookedness and explain why I did not vote for her. What if he gets in and turns this place around for the better? 

As for the gays kissing, yes I don't want to see it and I don't want my kids to see it, that doesn't make me hate gays. I want to see that just as much as I want to see a guy and girl making out in the street, don't want my kids seeing that much either.

You just understand things differently than I do. I think Trump knows trade and knows business globally. I think he will make some good choices for our country. You don't agree and I can respect that. Neither one of us are in that same boat and no matter how much we research he will always know more as it is his business, just like I will always know more about running a business than say Havasu because I actually run a business successfully everyday.

Like I have said he might not be my first choice for president but he is also not my last and like the rest of America we have to choose between two people, one a successful business owner and one a liar who takes donations from the very countries that also support the enemy. It's a pretty easy choice in my book. There is NO other choices. You talk about Trump being bad and we all know Hillary is ten times worse, what are we supposed to do this election? Instead of telling how bad one of the candidate is why don't you inform me on why I should vote for another?


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## Chris

bud16415 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1yTYR3isi8



I'm sure Neal wont watch it or agree with any of it.


----------



## nealtw

I don't particularly like the Dem. agenda and we know the direction she would take the country but like Trump if the congress would let her. They did a pretty good job of stopping Obama and that will continue.
Believe me, my dislike for Trump is not from what the Dems are saying, some of what they say might drift in but I have not been paying attention to them. My interest is the GOP and my dislike is all about what Trump says, and who he says it too.
There is no way you know what his intentions are in the middle east, I think he gave us 3 or 4 choices. 

Right now people who have hated each other for centuries are hugging each other in the streets of that city they are fighting in. We can wish them well and hope it works. They are doing that with what I think is a very small US contingent. Do you think Trump could match that, I doubt it.

That is just one plank in his very shaky platform.

Everyone wants to take this subject to Hillary but this thread did start as a thread about Trump.

You have to choose who to vote for. You know all the negatives about her and all the positives about him.  
If I went to vote with that limited prospective I would think I was unprepared. I think by now you know that never happens.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> I'm sure Neal wont watch it or agree with any of it.



I did watch it and I have seen it before. That is when He was on message, can he be trusted when he doesn't have speech writers, like when he talks to friends and foe.

Remember, I did say I watched most of his speeches.
I think that is more than any of you can say.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> I don't particularly like the Dem. agenda and we know the direction she would take the country but like Trump if the congress would let her. They did a pretty good job of stopping Obama and that will continue.
> Believe me, my dislike for Trump is not from what the Dems are saying, some of what they say might drift in but I have not been paying attention to them. My interest is the GOP and my dislike is all about what Trump says, and who he says it too.
> There is no way you know what his intentions are in the middle east, I think he gave us 3 or 4 choices.
> 
> Right now people who have hated each other for centuries are hugging each other in the streets of that city they are fighting in. We can wish them well and hope it works. They are doing that with what I think is a very small US contingent. Do you think Trump could match that, I doubt it.
> 
> That is just one plank in his very shaky platform.
> 
> Everyone wants to take this subject to Hillary but this thread did start as a thread about Trump.
> 
> You have to choose who to vote for. You know all the negatives about her and all the positives about him.
> If I went to vote with that limited prospective I would think I was unprepared. I think by now you know that never happens.




My problem is I can't find any positives about Hillary. There is nothing she is offering that I truly believe will help Americans in general. It could be because I don't believe handouts are good for people or it could be that I want to keep as much of my hard earned money as I possibly can, I don't know. Same with Obama, there was nothing I saw that would actually help Americans in the long run and whether it was the GOP's fault that Obama care came out so screwed up or not it is still screwed up, My health care went from 180 a month with 10 dollar copays to last year I had 22k out of pocket before they covered anything and by then it was December and it all starts over again and now this year it is increasing, my wife only works to help pay for healthcare. She could be at home with the kids if it were not for Obama care and Obama care alone. So to give free healthcare to those with no income my wife and I have to suffer and work harder to pay for it, that sounds like socialism to me and I don't agree with it.


Just watch that video Bud posted, it shows why I am voting for Trump, I do believe he has Americans first and truly wants it to be better for us. He has been saying that for decades and not just now that he is running. I believe him when he says these things, he has never had to say them, he is not bought by anyone and everyone hates him. If every country and everyone in government loved him I would be worried. He is not there to make money, he doesn't need to be there, he is probably losing a ton of money by doing this. He truly wants to help Americans, believe it or not.


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html
> 
> you have this election all wrong. this election is about which way our nation will go in the coming years.socialiest  or continue as a republic
> I think what you need to understand us, is to read the difference in a democratic government as opposed to a republic.
> we are a republic.  that is what we are voting on,
> In a Democracy, The Individual, and any group of Individuals composing any Minority, have no protection against the unlimited power of The Majority. It is a case of Majority-over-Man.
> 
> A Republic, on the other hand, has a very different purpose and an entirely different form, or system, of government. Its purpose is to control The Majority strictly, as well as all others among the people, primarily to protect The Individuals God-given, unalienable rights and therefore for the protection of the rights of The Minority, of all minorities, and the liberties of people in general. The definition of a Republic is: a constitutionally limited government of the representative type, created by a written Constitution--adopted by the people and changeable (from its original meaning) by them only by its amendment--with its powers divided between three separate Branches: Executive, Legislative and Judicial. Here the term "the people" means, of course, the electorate.
> 
> 
> when you figure out which side you are for, let me know.
> I am a republican  or for a republic
> 
> clinton is against every thing I believe.
> the gop, has ceased to follow the republic beliefs and are leaning left.
> 
> along comes Trump, he wants to bring the country back to the right
> to the republic.  do you understand  =?  the gop is dead and gone
> they just refuse to let go,  Trump is going to drain the swamp
> get rid of the professional pigs getting fat at the trough of the tax payer



And that is why you would fight and die for every minority to have the same rights as you.
That is why you understand how wrong the civil war was and how sad it is that so many had to die on both sides.
And that why you understand what the blacks went thru to gain what rights they have and why they watch really close when it looks like some one wants to take those rights away.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> I did watch it and I have seen it before. That is when He was on message, can he be trusted when he doesn't have speech writers, like when he talks to friends and foe.
> 
> Remember, I did say I watched most of his speeches.
> I think that is more than any of you can say.



I watch Hillary speeches as much as I can, I put them on on the weekends when I am working, I truly like to hear both sides. Like I said before to be successful you can not just follow one side. For me it is difficult to believe she actually is behind all of what she says because she is a known liar and flip flops depending on who is footing the bill. I just don't see that same genuine feeling that I see with Trump, almost like watching a career politician who is in it for the money make a speech, will tell you what you want to hear just for your vote.

I truly believe she is just not a good person. I don't think she would go out of her way to help anyone do anything unless she was getting paid, she reminds me of my stepmother.

As for Trump I truly believe he is a good person. He does a lot for others all the time.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> And that is why you would fight and die for every minority to have the same rights as you.
> That is why you understand how wrong the civil war was and how sad it is that so many had to die on both sides.
> And that why you understand what the blacks went thru to gain what rights they have and why they watch really close when it looks like some one wants to take those rights away.



what the hell are you talking about ?  

I am a Vietnam era Vet...I think that speaks for itself

I am a Southern man, Yes the northern aggression was wrong i agree 100%

who is trying to take the Blacks rights away?  which rights ?


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## nealtw

Chris said:


> He does a lot for others all the time.



Educate me


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## Chris

nealtw said:


> And that is why you would fight and die for every minority to have the same rights as you.
> That is why you understand how wrong the civil war was and how sad it is that so many had to die on both sides.
> And that why you understand what the blacks went thru to gain what rights they have and why they watch really close when it looks like some one wants to take those rights away.



Minorities currently have more rights than us. Even down to the local level, couldn't become an LA firefighter for years unless you are a Minority. Minotrity owned businesses are required to be chosen for government contracts even if my bid is lower because they are minorities. 

I'm glad the Republicans free'd the slaves, if the blacks didn't sell their own in the first place we wouldn't have had that problem. 

The race thing was almost gone until Obama got into office and now we are more divided than we have been in a long time. Between Obama and the media we are a divided nation again.

I am all for minorities having equal rights but it needs to be equal, they seem to have more rights than us nowadays.


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## nealtw

frodo said:


> northern aggression



The western territories were the responsibility of the Fed, Gov and as such there will be no slaves out there.
It was the south that fired the first shot.

Can't you do a little research of your own.


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## Chris

nealtw said:


> Educate me



One easy one, he has created more jobs than most other people, when you create jobs you are feeding families.

Look up Andrew Ten, a three year old boy who needed to go to New York for hospital treatment and the airlines would not let him board with his medical equipment, Trump gave him his jet to use to get him there.

Annabell Hill, Farmer about to lose her family farm to forecloser, Her husband committed suicide just so she could get the life insurance money to help pay for the farm. He came in and saved her farm.

He saved the ice skating rink in central park by taking over construction of it, finished two months early and 3/4 million under budget then ran it for a year donating every penny of profit to charity.

Kept the Harlem hoops project alive after the man running it was killed on 9/11

Barbar Res, first woman ever put in charge of running a construction site when in 1980 Donald Trump hired for to build a sky scarper.

Google him, he does good deeds all the time. More than you would ever imagine.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Minorities currently have more rights than us. Even down to the local level, couldn't become an LA firefighter for years unless you are a Minority. Minotrity owned businesses are required to be chosen for government contracts even if my bid is lower because they are minorities.
> 
> I'm glad the Republicans free'd the slaves, if the blacks didn't sell their own in the first place we wouldn't have had that problem.
> 
> The race thing was almost gone until Obama got into office and now we are more divided than we have been in a long time. Between Obama and the media we are a divided nation again.
> 
> I am all for minorities having equal rights but it needs to be equal, they seem to have more rights than us nowadays.



Wouldn't you agree that that is a result of unfair treatment for a hundred years or so and if they had been dealt with fairly that would never happen.

I live in a country that is much more colour blind and we have no need for anywhere near the number of quota you have. Off the top of my head I can't think of one but we likely have some. East Indians had trouble getting into the RCM Police because of the turbans the Sics wear.


----------



## Chris

It all depends on how long we are supposed to hold onto a grudge? A hundred years of being treated unfair, now are they supposed to treat us unfair for the next hundred to make it even? Myself and my family had nothing to do with slavery so why am I being brought into it? Is it because I am white that I am automatically racist or have something to do with it? How many Blacks are alive today that were slaves or were directly affected by slavery? I wasn't involved just like that 40 year old black guy wasn't involved. Laws were made and things changed, for as long as I have been alive we have all been equals until about 8 years ago. I am not the least bit racist and never even thought about it until this presidency. Look at BLM, a bunch of Racist black people hating Whites but that is ok in the eye of the Government and Obama backs them. Things have changed around here. Before it was a fight for equality and now it is to where whites are fighting for equality.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> The western territories were the responsibility of the Fed, Gov and as such there will be no slaves out there.
> It was the south that fired the first shot.
> 
> Can't you do a little research of your own.



That why I like talking to you,  you are never a wise ***



True Causes of the Civil War

Irreconcilable Differences
Simmering animosities between North and South signaled an American apocalypse

Any man who takes it upon himself to explain the causes of the Civil War deserves whatever grief comes his way, regardless of his good intentions. Having acknowledged that, let me also say I have long believed there is no more concise or stirring accounting for the war than the sentiments propounded by Irish poet William Butler Yeats in The Second Coming, some lines of which are included in this essay. Yeats wrote his short poem immediately following the catastrophe of World War I, but his thesis of a great, cataclysmic event is universal and timeless.

It is probably safe to say that the original impetus of the Civil War was set in motion when a Dutch trader offloaded a cargo of African slaves at Jamestown, Va., in 1619. It took nearly 250 eventful years longer for it to boil into a war, but that Dutchmans boatload was at the bottom of ita fact that needs to be fixed in the readers mind from the start.

Of course there were other things, too. For instance, by the eve of the Civil War the sectional argument had become so far advanced that a significant number of Southerners were convinced that Yankees, like Negroes, constituted an entirely different race of people from themselves.

It is unclear who first put forth this curious interpretation of American history, but just as the great schism burst upon the scene it was subscribed to by no lesser Confederate luminaries than president Jefferson Davis himself and Admiral Raphael Semmes, of CSS Alabama fame, who asserted that the North was populated by descendants of the cold Puritan Roundheads of Oliver Cromwellwho had overthrown and executed the king of England in 1649while others of the class were forced to flee to Holland, where they also caused trouble, before finally settling at Plymouth Rock, Mass.

Southerners on the other hand, or so the theory went, were the hereditary offspring of Cromwells enemies, the gay cavaliers of King Charles II and his glorious Restoration, who had imbued the South with their easygoing, chivalrous and honest ways. Whereas, according to Semmes, the people of the North had evolved accordingly into gloomy, saturnine, and fanatical people who seemed to repel all the more kindly and generous impulses (omittingpossibly in a momentary lapse of memorythat the original settlers of other Southern states, such as Georgia, had been prison convicts or, in the case of Louisiana, deportees, and that Semmes own wife was a Yankee from Ohio).

How beliefs such as this came to pass in the years between 1619 and 1860 reveals the astonishing capacity of human nature to confound traditional a posteriori deduction in an effort to justify what had become by then largely unjustifiable. But there is blame enough for all to go around.
Read More in Americas Civil War MagazineSubscribe online and save nearly 40%!!!

From that first miserable boatload of Africans in Jamestown, slavery spread to all the settlements, and, after the Revolutionary War, was established by laws in the states. But by the turn of the 19th century, slavery was confined to the South, where the economy was almost exclusively agricultural. For a time it appeared the practice was on its way to extinction. Virginias Thomas Jefferson probably summed up the attitude of the day when he defined the Souths peculiar institution as a necessary evil, which he and many others believed, or at least hoped, would wither away of its own accord since it was basically wasteful and unproductive.

Then along came Eli Whitney with his cotton gin, suddenly making it feasible to grow short-staple cotton that was fit for the great textile mills of England and France. This in turn, 40 years later, prompted South Carolinas prominent senator John C. Calhoun to declare that slaveryfar from being merely a necessary evilwas actually a positive good, because, among other things, in the years since the gins invention, the South had become fabulously rich, with cotton constituting some 80 percent of all U.S. exports.

But beneath this great wealth and prosperity, America seethed. Whenever you have two peopleor peoplesjoined in politics but doing diametrically opposing things, it is almost inevitable that at some point tensions and jealousies will break out. In the industrial North, there was a low, festering resentment that eight of the first 11 U.S. presidents were Southernersand most of them Virginians at that. For their part, the agrarian Southerners harbored lingering umbrage over the internal improvements policy propagated by the national government, which sought to expand and develop roads, harbors, canals, etc., but which the Southerners felt was disproportionately weighted toward Northern interests. These were the first pangs of sectional dissension.


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## frodo

Then there was the matter of the Tariff of Abominations, which became abominable for all concerned.

This inflammatory piece of legislation, passed with the aid of Northern politicians, imposed a tax or duty on imported goods that caused practically everything purchased in the South to rise nearly half-again in price. This was because the South had become used to shipping its cotton to England and France and in return receiving boatloads of inexpensive European goods, including clothing made from its own cotton. However, as years went by, the North, particularly New England, had developed cotton mills of its own&#8212;as well as leather and harness manufactories, iron and steel mills, arms and munitions factories, potteries, furniture makers, silversmiths and so forth. And with the new tariff putting foreign goods out of financial reach, Southerners were forced to buy these products from the North at what they considered exorbitant costs.

Smart money might have concluded it would be wise for the South to build its own cotton mills and its own manufactories, but its people were too attached to growing cotton. A visitor in the 1830s described the relentless cycle of the planters&#8217; misallocation of spare capital: &#8220;To sell cotton to buy Negroes&#8212;to make more cotton to buy more Negroes&#8212;&#8216;ad infinitum.&#8217;&#8221;

Such was the Southern mindset, but the tariff nearly kicked off the war 30 years early because, as the furor rose, South Carolina&#8217;s Calhoun, who was then running for vice president of the United States, declared that states&#8212;his own state in particular&#8212;were under no obligation to obey the federal tariff law, or to collect it from ships entering its harbors. Later, South Carolina legislators acted on this assertion and defied the federal government to overrule them, lest the state secede. This set off the Nullification Crisis, which held in theory (or wishful thinking) that a state could nullify or ignore any federal law it held was not in its best interests. The crisis was defused only when President Andrew Jackson sent warships into Charleston Harbor&#8212;but it also marked the first time a Southern state had threatened to secede from the Union.

The incident also set the stage for the states&#8217; rights dispute, pitting state laws against the notion of federal sovereignty&#8212;an argument which became ongoing into the next century, and the next. &#8220;States&#8217; rights&#8221; also became a Southern watchword for Northern (or &#8220;Yankee&#8221 intrusion on the Southern lifestyle. States&#8217; rights political parties sprang up over the South; one particular example of just how volatile the issue had become was embodied in the decision in 1831 of Nathaniel and Elizabeth Gist (ironically from Union, S.C.) to name their firstborn son &#8220;States Rights Gist,&#8221; a name he bore proudly until November 30, 1864, when, as a Confederate brigadier general, he was shot and killed leading his men at the Battle of Franklin in Tennessee.

Though the tariff question remained an open sore from its inception in 1828 right up to the Civil War, many modern historians have dismissed the impact it had on the growing rift between the two sections of the country. But any careful reading of newspapers, magazines or correspondence of the era indicates that here is where the feud began to fester into hatred. Some Southern historians in the past have argued this was the root cause of the Civil War. It wasn&#8217;t, but it was a critical ingredient in the suspicion and mistrust Southerners were beginning to feel about their Northern brethren, and by extension about the Union itself. Not only did the tariff issue raise for the first time the frightening specter of Southern secession, but it also seemed to have marked a mazy kind of dividing line in which the South vaguely started thinking of itself as a separate entity&#8212;perhaps even a separate country. Thus the cat, or at least the cat&#8217;s paw, was out of the bag.

All the resenting and seething naturally continued to spill over into politics. The North, with immigrants pouring in, vastly outnumbered the South in population and thus controlled the House of Representatives. But the U.S. Senate, by a sort of gentleman&#8217;s agreement laced with the usual bribes and threats, had remained 50-50, meaning that whenever a territory was admitted as a free state, the South got to add a corresponding slave state&#8212;and vice versa. That is until 1820, when Missouri applied for statehood and anti-slavery forces insisted it must be free. Ultimately, this resulted in Congress passing the Missouri Compromise, which decreed that Missouri could come in as a slave state (and Maine as a free state) but any other state created north of Missouri&#8217;s southern border would have to be free. That held the thing together for longer than it deserved.

In plain acknowledgement that slavery was an offensive practice, Congress in 1808 banned the importation of African slaves. Nevertheless there were millions of slaves living in the South, and their population continued growing. Beginning in the late 18th century, a small group of people in New England concluded that slavery was a social evil, and began to agitate for its abolition&#8212;hence, of course, the term &#8220;abolitionist.&#8221;


----------



## frodo

Over the years this group became stronger and by the 1820s had turned into a full-fledged movement, preaching abolition from pulpits and podiums throughout the North, publishing pamphlets and newspapers, and generally stirring up sentiments both fair and foul in the halls of Congress and elsewhere. At first the abolitionists concluded that the best solution was to send the slaves back to Africa, and they actually acquired land in what is now Liberia, returning a small colony of ex-bondsmen across the ocean.

By the 1840s, the abolitionists had decided that slavery was not simply a social evil, but a moral wrong, and began to agitate on that basis.

This did not sit well with the churchgoing Southerners, who were now subjected to being called unpleasant and scandalous names by Northerners they did not even know. This provoked, among other things, religious schisms, which in the mid-1840s caused the American Methodist and Baptist churches to split into Northern and Southern denominations. Somehow the Presbyterians hung together, but it was a strain, while the Episcopal church remained a Southern stronghold and firebrand bastion among the wealthy and planter classes. Catholics also maintained their solidarity, prompting cynics to suggest it was only because they owed their allegiance to the pope of Rome rather than to any state, country or ideal.

Abolitionist literature began showing up in the Southern mails, causing Southerners to charge the abolitionists with attempting to foment a slave rebellion, the mere notion of which remained high on most Southerners anxiety lists. Murderous slave revolts had occurred in Haiti, Jamaica and Louisiana and more recently resulted in the killing of nearly 60 whites during the Nat Turner slave uprising in Virginia in 1831.

During the Mexican War the United States acquired enormous territories in the West, and what by then abolitionists called the slave power was pressing to colonize these lands. That prompted an obscure congressman from Pennsylvania to submit an amendment to a Mexican War funding bill in 1846 that would have prevented slavery in any territory acquired from Mexicowhich became known, after its author, as the Wilmot Proviso. Even though it failed to pass into law, the very act of presenting the measure became a cause célèbre among Southerners who viewed it as further evidence that Northerners were not only out to destroy their peculiar institution, but their political power as well.

In 1850, to the consternation of Southerners, California was admitted into the Union as a free statemainly because the Gold Rush miners did not want to find themselves in competition with slave labor. But for the first time it threw the balance of power in the Senate to the Northern states.

By then national politics had become almost entirely sectional, a dangerous business, pitting North against Southand vice versain practically all matters, however remote. To assuage Southern fury at the admission of free California, Congress passed the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, which made Northerners personally responsible for the return of runaway slaves. Contrary to its intentions, the act actually galvanized Northern sentiments against slavery because it seemed to demand direct assent to, and personal complicity with, the practice of human bondage.

During the decade of the 1850s, crisis seemed to pile upon crisis as levels of anger turned to rage, and rage turned to violence. One of the most polarizing episodes between North and South occurred upon the 1852 publication of Harriet Beecher Stowes novel Uncle Toms Cabin, which depicted the slaves life as a relentless nightmare of sorrow and cruelty. Northern passions were inflamed while furious Southerners dismissed the story en masse as an outrageously skewed and unfair portrayal. (After the conflict began it was said that Lincoln, upon meeting Mrs. Stowe, remarked, So you are the little lady who started this great war?)

In 1854 the Kansas-Nebraska Act, sponsored by frequent presidential candidate Stephen A. Douglas, overturned the Missouri Compromise and permitted settlers in the Kansas Territory to choose for themselves whether they wanted a free or slave state. Outraged Northern abolitionists, horrified at the notion of slavery spreading by popular sovereignty, began raising funds to send anti-slave settlers to Kansas.

Equally outraged Southerners sent their own settlers, and a brutish group known as Border Ruffians from slaveholding Missouri went into Kansas to make trouble for the abolitionists. Into this unfortunate mix came an abolitionist fanatic named John Brown riding with his sons and gang. And as the murders and massacres began to pile up, newspapers throughout the land carried headlines of Bleeding Kansas.

In the halls of Congress, the slavery issue had prompted feuds, insults, duels and finally a divisive gag rule that forbade even discussion or debate on petitions about the issue of slavery. But during the Kansas controversy a confrontation between a senator and a congressman stood out as particularly shocking. In 1856, Charles Sumner, a 45-year-old Massachusetts senator and abolitionist, conducted a three-hour rant in the Senate chamber against the Kansas-Nebraska Act, focusing in particular on 59-year-old South Carolina Senator Andrew Butler, whom he mocked and compared to a pimp, having taken as his mistress the harlot, Slavery. Two days later Congressman Preston Brooks, a nephew of the demeaned South Carolinian, appeared beside Sumners desk in the Senate and caned him nearly to death with a gold-headed gutta-percha walking stick.

By then, every respectable-sized city, North and South, had a half-dozen newspapers and even small towns had at least one or more; and the revolutionary new telegraph brought the latest news overnight or sooner. Throughout the North, the caning incident triggered profound indignation that was transformed into support for a new anti-slavery political party. In the election of 1856, the new Republican Party ran explorer John C. Frémont, the famed Pathfinder, for president, and even though he lost, the party had become a force to be reckoned with.

In 1857 the U.S. Supreme Court delivered its infamous Dred Scott decision, which elated Southerners and enraged Northerners. The court ruled, in essence, that a slave was not a citizen, or even a person, and that slaves were so far inferior that they [have] no rights which the white man [is] bound to respect. Southerners were relieved that they could now move their slaves in and out of free territories and states without losing them, while in the North the ruling merely drove more people into the anti-slavery camp.

Then in 1859, John Brown, of Bleeding Kansas notoriety, staged a murderous raid on the U.S. arsenal at Harpers Ferry, Va., hoping to inspire a general slave uprising. The raid was thwarted by U.S. troops, and Brown was tried for treason
and hanged; but when it came out that he was being financed by Northern abolitionists, Southern anger was profuse and furiousespecially after the Northern press elevated Brown to the status of hero and martyr. It simply reinforced the Southern conviction that Northerners were out to destroy their way of life.

As the crucial election of 1860 approached, there arose talk of Southern secession by a group of fire-eaters influential orators who insisted Northern fanatics intended to free slaves by law if possible, by force if necessary. Hectoring abolitionist newspapers and Northern orators (known as Black, or Radical Republicans) provided ample fodder for that conclusion.

The 1850s drew to a close in near social convulsion and the established political parties began to break apartalways a dangerous sign. The Whigs simply vanished into other parties; the Democrats split into Northern and Southern contingents, each with its own slate of candidates. A Constitutional Union party also appeared, looking for votes from moderates in the Border States. As a practical matter, all of this assured a victory for the Republican candidate, Abraham Lincoln, who was widely, if wrongly, viewed in the South as a rabid abolitionist. With the addition of Minnesota (1858) and Oregon (1859) as free states, the Southerners greatest fears were about to be realizedcomplete control of the federal government by free-state, anti-slavery politicians.

With the vote split four ways, Lincoln and the Republicans swept into power in November 1860, gaining a majority of the Electoral College, but only a 40 percent plurality of the popular vote. It didnt matter to the South. In short order, always pugnacious South Carolina voted to secede from the Union, followed by six other Deep South states that were invested heavily in cotton.

Much of the Southern apprehension and ire that Lincoln would free the slaves was misplaced. No matter how distasteful he found the practice of slavery, the overarching philosophy that drove Lincoln was a hard pragmatism that did not include the forcible abolition of slavery by the federal governmentfor the simple reason that he could not envision any political way of accomplishing it. But Lincoln, like a considerable number of Northern people, was decidedly against allowing slavery to spread into new territories and states. By denying slaveholders the right to extend their boundaries, Lincoln would in effect also be weakening their power in Washington, and over time this would almost inevitably have resulted in the abolition of slavery, as sooner or later the land would have worn out.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> One easy one, he has created more jobs than most other people, when you create jobs you are feeding families.
> 
> Look up Andrew Ten, a three year old boy who needed to go to New York for hospital treatment and the airlines would not let him board with his medical equipment, Trump gave him his jet to use to get him there.
> 
> Annabell Hill, Farmer about to lose her family farm to forecloser, Her husband committed suicide just so she could get the life insurance money to help pay for the farm. He came in and saved her farm.
> 
> He saved the ice skating rink in central park by taking over construction of it, finished two months early and 3/4 million under budget then ran it for a year donating every penny of profit to charity.
> 
> Kept the Harlem hoops project alive after the man running it was killed on 9/11
> 
> Barbar Res, first woman ever put in charge of running a construction site when in 1980 Donald Trump hired for to build a sky scarper.
> 
> Google him, he does good deeds all the time. More than you would ever imagine.



Okay, so you have an inside guy write about the good things you have done, where the rest of the list?

Good argument, he does hire people and likely some spin off jobs too.
That is what business does.

But somewhere I have heard the Gov. does not create jobs.
Is that some new belief now.


----------



## frodo

But that wasn&#8217;t bad enough for the Southern press, which whipped up the populace to such a pitch of fury that Lincoln became as reviled as John Brown himself. These influential journals, from Richmond to Charleston and myriad points in between, painted a sensational picture of Lincoln in words and cartoons as an arch-abolitionist&#8212;a kind of antichrist who would turn the slaves loose to rape, murder and pillage. For the most part, Southerners ate it up. If there is a case to be made on what caused the Civil War, the Southern press and its editors would be among the first in the dock. It goes a long way in explaining why only one in three Confederate soldiers were slaveholders, or came from slaveholding families. It wasn&#8217;t their slaves they were defending, it was their homes against the specter of slaves-gone-wild.

Interestingly, many if not most of the wealthiest Southerners were opposed to secession for the simple reason that they had the most to lose if it came to war and the war went badly. But in the end they, like practically everyone else, were swept along on the tide of anti-Washington, anti-abolition, anti-Northern and anti-Lincoln rhetoric.

To a lesser extent, the Northern press must accept its share of blame for antagonizing Southerners by damning and lampooning them as brutal lash-wielding torturers and heartless family separators. With all this back and forth carrying on for at least the decade preceding war, by the time hostilities broke out, few either in the North or the South had much use for the other, and minds were set. One elderly Tennessean later expressed it this way: &#8220;I wish there was a river of fire a mile wide between the North and the South, that would burn with unquenchable fury forevermore, and that it could never be passable to the endless ages of eternity by any living creature.&#8221;

The immediate cause of Southern secession, therefore, was a fear that Lincoln and the Republican Congress would have abolished the institution of slavery&#8212;which would have ruined fortunes, wrecked the Southern economy and left the South to contend with millions of freed blacks. The long-term cause was a feeling by most Southerners that the interests of the two sections of the country had drifted apart, and were no longer mutual or worthwhile.

The proximate cause of the war, however, was Lincoln&#8217;s determination not to allow the South to go peacefully out of the Union, which would have severely weakened, if not destroyed, the United States.

There is the possibility that war might have been avoided, and a solution worked out, had there not been so much mistrust on the part of the South. Unfortunately, some of the mistrust was well earned in a bombastic fog of hatred, recrimination and outrageous statements and accusations on both sides. Put another way, it was well known that Lincoln was anti-slavery, but both during his campaign for office and after his election, he insisted it was never his intention to disturb slavery where it already existed. The South simply did not believe him.
Read More in Military History MagazineSubscribe online and save nearly 40%!!!

The Lincoln administration was able to quell secession movements in several Border States&#8212;Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland and what would become West Virginia&#8212;by a combination of politics and force, including suspension of the Bill of Rights. But when Lincoln ordered all states to contribute men for an army to suppress the rebellion South Carolina started by firing on Fort Sumter, Virginia, Arkansas, Tennessee and North Carolina also joined the Confederacy rather than make war on their fellow Southerners.

&#8220;Because of incompatibility of temper,&#8221; a Southern woman was prompted to lament, &#8220;we have hated each other so. If we could only separate, a &#8216;separation a l&#8217;agreable,&#8217; as the French say it, and not have a horrid fight for divorce.&#8221;

Things had come a long way during the nearly 250 years since the Dutchman delivered his cargo of African slaves to the wharf at Jamestown, but in 1860 almost everyone agreed that a war wouldn&#8217;t last long. Most thought it would be over by summertime.

Article originally published in the September 2010 issue of America&#8217;s Civil War.


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> Then there was the matter of the Tariff of Abominations, which became abominable for all concerned.
> 
> This inflammatory piece of legislation, passed with the aid of Northern politicians, imposed a tax or duty on imported goods that caused practically everything purchased in the South to rise nearly half-again in price. This was because the South had become used to shipping its cotton to England and France and in return receiving boatloads of inexpensive European goods, including clothing made from its own cotton. However, as years went by, the North, particularly New England, had developed cotton mills of its ownas well as leather and harness manufactories, iron and steel mills, arms and munitions factories, potteries, furniture makers, silversmiths and so forth. And with the new tariff putting foreign goods out of financial reach, Southerners were forced to buy these products from the North at what they considered exorbitant costs.
> 
> Smart money might have concluded it would be wise for the South to build its own cotton mills and its own manufactories, but its people were too attached to growing cotton. A visitor in the 1830s described the relentless cycle of the planters misallocation of spare capital: To sell cotton to buy Negroesto make more cotton to buy more Negroesad infinitum.
> 
> Such was the Southern mindset, but the tariff nearly kicked off the war 30 years early because, as the furor rose, South Carolinas Calhoun, who was then running for vice president of the United States, declared that stateshis own state in particularwere under no obligation to obey the federal tariff law, or to collect it from ships entering its harbors. Later, South Carolina legislators acted on this assertion and defied the federal government to overrule them, lest the state secede. This set off the Nullification Crisis, which held in theory (or wishful thinking) that a state could nullify or ignore any federal law it held was not in its best interests. The crisis was defused only when President Andrew Jackson sent warships into Charleston Harborbut it also marked the first time a Southern state had threatened to secede from the Union.
> 
> The incident also set the stage for the states rights dispute, pitting state laws against the notion of federal sovereigntyan argument which became ongoing into the next century, and the next. States rights also became a Southern watchword for Northern (or Yankee) intrusion on the Southern lifestyle. States rights political parties sprang up over the South; one particular example of just how volatile the issue had become was embodied in the decision in 1831 of Nathaniel and Elizabeth Gist (ironically from Union, S.C.) to name their firstborn son States Rights Gist, a name he bore proudly until November 30, 1864, when, as a Confederate brigadier general, he was shot and killed leading his men at the Battle of Franklin in Tennessee.
> 
> Though the tariff question remained an open sore from its inception in 1828 right up to the Civil War, many modern historians have dismissed the impact it had on the growing rift between the two sections of the country. But any careful reading of newspapers, magazines or correspondence of the era indicates that here is where the feud began to fester into hatred. Some Southern historians in the past have argued this was the root cause of the Civil War. It wasnt, but it was a critical ingredient in the suspicion and mistrust Southerners were beginning to feel about their Northern brethren, and by extension about the Union itself. Not only did the tariff issue raise for the first time the frightening specter of Southern secession, but it also seemed to have marked a mazy kind of dividing line in which the South vaguely started thinking of itself as a separate entityperhaps even a separate country. Thus the cat, or at least the cats paw, was out of the bag.
> 
> All the resenting and seething naturally continued to spill over into politics. The North, with immigrants pouring in, vastly outnumbered the South in population and thus controlled the House of Representatives. But the U.S. Senate, by a sort of gentlemans agreement laced with the usual bribes and threats, had remained 50-50, meaning that whenever a territory was admitted as a free state, the South got to add a corresponding slave stateand vice versa. That is until 1820, when Missouri applied for statehood and anti-slavery forces insisted it must be free. Ultimately, this resulted in Congress passing the Missouri Compromise, which decreed that Missouri could come in as a slave state (and Maine as a free state) but any other state created north of Missouris southern border would have to be free. That held the thing together for longer than it deserved.
> 
> In plain acknowledgement that slavery was an offensive practice, Congress in 1808 banned the importation of African slaves. Nevertheless there were millions of slaves living in the South, and their population continued growing. Beginning in the late 18th century, a small group of people in New England concluded that slavery was a social evil, and began to agitate for its abolitionhence, of course, the term abolitionist.



So the north was doing what Trump wants to do. And stop trade that competes with American products.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> Okay, so you have an inside guy write about the good things you have done, where the rest of the list?
> 
> Good argument, he does hire people and likely some spin off jobs too.
> That is what business does.
> 
> But somewhere I have heard the Gov. does not create jobs.
> Is that some new belief now.



You asked to educate you so I did and you don't want to accept it. How many examples would you need to believe the guys does good things?

Government does not create jobs. That doesn't disqualify that he has done so much good in his personal life. How many jobs do most politicians create?

He has a track record of doing good things and being a good person.


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> That why I like talking to you,  you are never a wise ***
> 
> 
> 
> True Causes of the Civil War
> 
> Irreconcilable Differences
> Simmering animosities between North and South signaled an American apocalypse
> 
> Any man who takes it upon himself to explain the causes of the Civil War deserves whatever grief comes his way, regardless of his good intentions. Having acknowledged that, let me also say I have long believed there is no more concise or stirring accounting for the war than the sentiments propounded by Irish poet William Butler Yeats in The Second Coming, some lines of which are included in this essay. Yeats wrote his short poem immediately following the catastrophe of World War I, but his thesis of a great, cataclysmic event is universal and timeless.
> 
> It is probably safe to say that the original impetus of the Civil War was set in motion when a Dutch trader offloaded a cargo of African slaves at Jamestown, Va., in 1619. It took nearly 250 eventful years longer for it to boil into a war, but that Dutchmans boatload was at the bottom of ita fact that needs to be fixed in the readers mind from the start.
> 
> Of course there were other things, too. For instance, by the eve of the Civil War the sectional argument had become so far advanced that a significant number of Southerners were convinced that Yankees, like Negroes, constituted an entirely different race of people from themselves.
> 
> It is unclear who first put forth this curious interpretation of American history, but just as the great schism burst upon the scene it was subscribed to by no lesser Confederate luminaries than president Jefferson Davis himself and Admiral Raphael Semmes, of CSS Alabama fame, who asserted that the North was populated by descendants of the cold Puritan Roundheads of Oliver Cromwellwho had overthrown and executed the king of England in 1649while others of the class were forced to flee to Holland, where they also caused trouble, before finally settling at Plymouth Rock, Mass.
> 
> Southerners on the other hand, or so the theory went, were the hereditary offspring of Cromwells enemies, the gay cavaliers of King Charles II and his glorious Restoration, who had imbued the South with their easygoing, chivalrous and honest ways. Whereas, according to Semmes, the people of the North had evolved accordingly into gloomy, saturnine, and fanatical people who seemed to repel all the more kindly and generous impulses (omittingpossibly in a momentary lapse of memorythat the original settlers of other Southern states, such as Georgia, had been prison convicts or, in the case of Louisiana, deportees, and that Semmes own wife was a Yankee from Ohio).
> 
> How beliefs such as this came to pass in the years between 1619 and 1860 reveals the astonishing capacity of human nature to confound traditional a posteriori deduction in an effort to justify what had become by then largely unjustifiable. But there is blame enough for all to go around.
> Read More in Americas Civil War MagazineSubscribe online and save nearly 40%!!!
> 
> From that first miserable boatload of Africans in Jamestown, slavery spread to all the settlements, and, after the Revolutionary War, was established by laws in the states. But by the turn of the 19th century, slavery was confined to the South, where the economy was almost exclusively agricultural. For a time it appeared the practice was on its way to extinction. Virginias Thomas Jefferson probably summed up the attitude of the day when he defined the Souths peculiar institution as a necessary evil, which he and many others believed, or at least hoped, would wither away of its own accord since it was basically wasteful and unproductive.
> 
> Then along came Eli Whitney with his cotton gin, suddenly making it feasible to grow short-staple cotton that was fit for the great textile mills of England and France. This in turn, 40 years later, prompted South Carolinas prominent senator John C. Calhoun to declare that slaveryfar from being merely a necessary evilwas actually a positive good, because, among other things, in the years since the gins invention, the South had become fabulously rich, with cotton constituting some 80 percent of all U.S. exports.
> 
> But beneath this great wealth and prosperity, America seethed. Whenever you have two peopleor peoplesjoined in politics but doing diametrically opposing things, it is almost inevitable that at some point tensions and jealousies will break out. In the industrial North, there was a low, festering resentment that eight of the first 11 U.S. presidents were Southernersand most of them Virginians at that. For their part, the agrarian Southerners harbored lingering umbrage over the internal improvements policy propagated by the national government, which sought to expand and develop roads, harbors, canals, etc., but which the Southerners felt was disproportionately weighted toward Northern interests. These were the first pangs of sectional dissension.


The south was full of rich farmers that brought in cheap goods from Europe and the money tricked down to the poor white farmers we know it didn't get to the slaves.

PS, glad to see you are doing some research.:thbup:


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> So the north was doing what Trump wants to do. And stop trade that competes with American products.



Does Trump want to stop trade or just make it more fair? I thought he just wants to make it an even playing ground and make it less desirable to import throw away junk. Educate me if I am wrong.

We give incentive to sell foreign stuff here but then when we want to export we get charged an arm and a leg.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> You asked to educate you so I did and you don't want to accept it. How many examples would you need to believe the guys does good things?
> 
> Government does not create jobs. That doesn't disqualify that he has done so much good in his personal life. How many jobs do most politicians create?
> 
> He has a track record of doing good things and being a good person.



I do agree those are good things, I just thought there would have been more like what he has done with his charity, there should be lots, don't you think.

I am sure if  I google the bad things I might come up with more than five.


----------



## Chris

He might think like I do about charities, most are cash cows for the top few that run them, very few charities give more than just a few percent of earnings to the ones in need. I would rather help out individual people than just give to a charity where 3% is going to actually make it out the other end. 

I am sure I could give you a hundred if I wanted to actually look for them. I am sure most go unnoticed.  You shouldn't have to publicly give to charities for people to believe you are a good person, thats what those running the charities want you to believe.


----------



## slownsteady

havasu said:


> Obama condoning illegals to vote? Maybe he is aware that if Trump gets elected, he could be sharing the cell next to Hillary?
> 
> http://www.wnd.com/2016/11/obama-encourages-illegal-aliens-to-vote/#rphmjjrt06eBV9ue.99



That video clip is useless. With only part of the question included, there is no way you can know the context of the quote. Dig deeper before you swallow anything.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> I do agree those are good things, I just thought there would have been more like what he has done with his charity, there should be lots, don't you think.
> 
> I am sure if  I google the bad things I might come up with more than five.




He has created [according to cnn]  34,000 jobs, 
that is a lot of families under his wing,  you do not recognize that ?

all you want is a public self serving show of charity 



Charities & foundations supported 23 Donald Trump has supported the following charities listed on this site:

Arnold Palmer Foundation

Celebrity Fight Night Foundation

Children with AIDS

David Foster Foundation

DoSomething.org

Friends of Scotland

Jimmy Fund

Los Angeles Police Memorial Foundation

Make A Child Smile Appeal

Make-A-Wish Foundation

Mississippi Animal Rescue League

Muhammad Ali Parkinson Center

Neurofibromatosis, Inc.

Operation Smile

Paralyzed Veterans of America

Pediatric Epilepsy Project

Raising Malawi

Reef Relief

Smile Train

St. Francis Food Pantries and Shelters

The Doe Fund

UNICEF

Wounded Warrior Project


----------



## oldognewtrick

nealtw said:


> Wouldn't you agree that that is a result of unfair treatment for a hundred years or so and if they had been dealt with fairly that would never happen.
> 
> I live in a country that is much more colour blind and we have no need for anywhere near the number of quota you have. Off the top of my head I can't think of one but we likely have some. East Indians had trouble getting into the RCM Police because of the turbans the Sics wear.



Well, when our election is over we can start debating the Canadian treatment of the Eskimo.


----------



## nealtw

the whole video.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaemYNcQbzuQKJu6BnxgmxA


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> He has created [according to cnn]  34,000 jobs,
> that is a lot of families under his wing,  you do not recognize that ?
> 
> all you want is a public self serving show of charity
> 
> 
> 
> Charities & foundations supported 23 Donald Trump has supported the following charities listed on this site:
> 
> Arnold Palmer Foundation
> 
> Celebrity Fight Night Foundation
> 
> Children with AIDS
> 
> David Foster Foundation
> 
> DoSomething.org
> 
> Friends of Scotland
> 
> Jimmy Fund
> 
> Los Angeles Police Memorial Foundation
> 
> Make A Child Smile Appeal
> 
> Make-A-Wish Foundation
> 
> Mississippi Animal Rescue League
> 
> Muhammad Ali Parkinson Center
> 
> Neurofibromatosis, Inc.
> 
> Operation Smile
> 
> Paralyzed Veterans of America
> 
> Pediatric Epilepsy Project
> 
> Raising Malawi
> 
> Reef Relief
> 
> Smile Train
> 
> St. Francis Food Pantries and Shelters
> 
> The Doe Fund
> 
> UNICEF
> 
> Wounded Warrior Project



That's a better list, I wonder what % he gives.


----------



## frodo

oldognewtrick said:


> Well, when our election is over we can start debating the Canadian treatment of the Eskimo.



LOL  i just gave it a quick look,,looks like they need to tend to their own garden and stay out of mine lol


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> That's a better list, I wonder what % he gives.




i dont know, why dont you fined out


----------



## nealtw

oldognewtrick said:


> Well, when our election is over we can start debating the Canadian treatment of the Eskimo.



Absolutely some of that is atrocious. They have moved some to terrible places so they can claim the north west passage.:down:


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> i dont know, why dont you fined out



You can find a number, but with out tax returns you won't get a % and I don't no the news I was reading to know whether we can believe what they are saying.
A quote from him would be best.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> You can find a number, but with out tax returns you won't get a % and I don't no the news I was reading to know whether we can believe what they are saying.
> A quote from him would be best.



I don't think it matters in any case. Why do people care how much he makes or how much he gives to charity? Just like I don't care how much Hillary makes or how much she gives to charity. I would care more if his money was coming from foreign governments.

Do you care how much I give to charity?


----------



## oldognewtrick

Chris said:


> *I don't think it matters in any case.* Why do people care how much he makes or how much he gives to charity? Just like I don't care how much Hillary makes or how much she gives to charity. I would care more if his money was coming from foreign governments.
> 
> Do you care how much I give to charity?



It's just a tactic to divert attention away from Bengasi, emails, foundations, cover-ups, lies before congress...


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> I don't think it matters in any case. Why do people care how much he makes or how much he gives to charity? Just like I don't care how much Hillary makes or how much she gives to charity. I would care more if his money was coming from foreign governments.
> 
> Do you care how much I give to charity?



No I don't. I like this move.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...c03106-9ac7-11e6-a0ed-ab0774c1eaa5_story.html


----------



## oldognewtrick

nealtw said:


> No I don't. I like this move.
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...c03106-9ac7-11e6-a0ed-ab0774c1eaa5_story.html



Why don't you take a long hard look at the Clinton Foundation?


----------



## nealtw

oldognewtrick said:


> Why don't you take a long hard look at the Clinton Foundation?



Do you  think I could find more than the FBI found?


----------



## frodo

fbi has not finished looking,  you may be thinking of the e mails.
there is so much corruption and investigating going on it gets confusing


----------



## oldognewtrick

nealtw said:


> Do you  think I could find more than the FBI found?



I don't think they could find a Polar Bear in a Wal-Mart store...


----------



## oldognewtrick

frodo said:


> fbi has not finished looking,  you may be thinking of the e mails.
> there is so much corruption and investigating going on it gets confusing



Thus my total dislike of Mrs. Clinton, I'd vote for Bernie if he was running, but I don't have that option...


----------



## nealtw

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ7_bo74VMA[/ame]


----------



## frodo

yes Mr Neal,  he is a bit of a jerk. but you know something, I would rather have a jerk for president,
than someone who has no regard for national security,  and makes her MAID fax classified papers
who has an assistant with family ties to Al-Quadia and isis  
who excepts millions of dollars from our frienemies  as personal contributions 

Yes sir, I believe I will back the Jerk


----------



## Chris

frodo said:


> yes Mr Neal,  he is a bit of a jerk. but you know something, I would rather have a jerk for president,
> than someone who has no regard for national security,  and makes her MAID fax classified papers
> who has an assistant with family ties to Al-Quadia and isis
> who excepts millions of dollars from our frienemies  as personal contributions
> 
> Yes sir, I believe I will back the Jerk



This is what people forget. So much stuff that shouldn't be and people still want her running this country instead of the jerk.


----------



## oldognewtrick

slownsteady said:


> With the election only a day away, I truly hope that no matter who wins we here on this forum put politics behind us and remain friends and get back to helping each other out.:wavingflag::canadaflag:



Yes, SNS, we'll all be friends after tomorrow. I'm rather surprised that things have been fairly civil. We may disagree, but I respect your right to have your own opinion. Good thing is, after tomorrow, whoever wins, we'll only have one of them lying to us...that's a reduction I'm looking forward to.


----------



## havasu

Yep, after tomorrow we will shake hands and move on with our lives...

...but until then, you others are asswipes! :hide:


----------



## oldognewtrick

havasu said:


> Yep, after tomorrow we will shake hands and move on with our lives...
> 
> ...but until then, you others are asswipes! :hide:



Thank you, thank you very much...:nono:


----------



## nealtw

Who ever wins, I hope I am wrong about Trump and you are wrong about Clinton.
*The day after tomorrow*  I think that was a show about hell freezing over.


----------



## oldognewtrick

nealtw said:


> Who ever wins, I hope I am wrong about Trump and you are wrong about Clinton.
> *The day after tomorrow*  I think that was a show about hell freezing over.



I don't think we're wrong about either....I just think a president shouldn't start their term with the FBI looking through their underwear drawer... just sayin...


----------



## Chris

Whatever happens I hope it doesn't put our country in any worse of a spot than it is now. I hope it doesn't put us in any immediate recession and hopefully we can go in a forward motion.


----------



## Chris

oldognewtrick said:


> I don't think we're wrong about either....I just think a president shouldn't start their term with the FBI looking through their underwear drawer... just sayin...



I agree, that doesn't look good. I bet the people would have never stood for this 100 years ago


----------



## oldognewtrick

20 years ago and they'd of been villagers and pitch forks at the castle gates.


----------



## nealtw

oldognewtrick said:


> I don't think we're wrong about either....I just think a president shouldn't start their term with the FBI looking through their underwear drawer... just sayin...



I would bet one of those top secret groups has done a file on every wanna be for the last hundred years. And if they found something, it would be dropped after the election and if convicted, it would go to the new VP. I suspect they have rules about when to drop the information and some of that has been discussed this last week.
Both parties have done a pretty good job of getting rid of their own when the proof is on the Table.

Agnew come to mind.


----------



## oldognewtrick

Well, the really bad thing is... One of them will be the next POTUS.


----------



## Chris

Just get it over with already.


----------



## Chris

I want to get on with complaining about who got elected, can't do that until tomorrow night


----------



## nealtw

oldognewtrick said:


> Well, the really bad thing is... One of them will be the next POTUS.



But you can only blame one of them on the Dems:trophy:


----------



## nealtw

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs56_GqTyIQ[/ame]


----------



## slownsteady

nealtw said:


> But somewhere I have heard the Gov. does not create jobs.
> Is that some new belief now.



People believe what they want to believe and conveniently forget the rest.


----------



## slownsteady

Chris said:


> He saved the ice skating rink in central park by taking over construction of it, finished two months early and 3/4 million under budget then ran it for a year donating every penny of profit to charity.
> ...., he does good deeds all the time. More than you would ever imagine.




A clip from a recent WNYC report on Trump's dealings with New York City:




> A Trump-owned company, in partnership with another company, continues  to operate the rink. The city takes a percentage of any profits, but  the two companies get more than two-thirds.
> An audit of rink operations made in 2007 by New York City Comptroller  William C. Thompson, Jr. turned up some accounting irregularities,  including an instance where Wollman Rink Operations had underreported  revenue by $106,608, meaning the the city had lost out on their share of  that revenue, further tarnishing Trumps claim to the position of  generous patron to the city at his own expense.


Here's the whole article, in case you have questions
https://www.6sqft.com/trumps-wollma...rse-were-more-personal-gain-than-public-good/


----------



## Chris

I will have to read that tomorrow.  Is that talking about the first year when he donated all proceeds?  Does he own both companies that have this irregularities? Not saying the company he may own isn't cheating the system but I know the IRS and even I have irregularities in my audit taxes because I claim things where I think I am supposed to and they want them in another box.


----------



## slownsteady

Since the city is the owner of the property, they get a percentage of the profits. The Comptroller was auditing to to see if NY was getting it's share, not a tax audit. This article is from September of this year.


----------



## frodo

http://freedomoutpost.com/what-is-not-the-job-of-the-us-government/




The basic functions of the United States government are listed in the Constitution. They are 'To form a more perfect Union'; 'To establish Justice'; 'To insure domestic Tranquility'; 'To provide for the common defense'; 'To promote the general Welfare'; and 'To secure the Blessings of Liberty.'

For just a moment, let's get back to basics, stop trying to create our own new truths, and identify from our founding documents (the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Mayflower Compact and the Federalist Papers) what our government is not designed to provide for it's citizens as inalienable rights:

    Food
    Shelter
    Clothing
    Transportation
    A Job
    Income
    Cell Phones
    Child Care
    Health Care and Insurance
    Education and advanced education (note, the government has decided to provide primary education to children as a means to indoctrinate youth, but the education aspect has been failing for some time, and now it is understood by the masses that the government is to guarantee secondary education as a right through burdensome loans and federal grants )
    Retirement
    Minimum Wage
    Birth control/abortion
    Absence of all evidence of God/Jesus and prevention of contact and conviction from these beliefs

Let's now look at what our government as a whole is not:

    Is not charity
    Is not the church, nor should it act in the place of church
    Is not the employer of masses of people, aside from essential government and military personnel
    Is not a health care adviser/legislator-The FDA and CDC and other government agencies dictating what is healthy, what is "required" (immunizations, insurance, legislating what we eat) and generally "protecting us" from things like fresh milk and eggs, home farmed goods, etc.
    Is not an insurance company 
    Is not a paternalistic figure, which decides who and what and when and how much it's citizens "deserve", as well as the who, what, when, where, and how much of what citizens should "be taken from".
    Is not a machine that works more efficiently the larger it becomes
    Is not a machine that understands how to operate on a budget or frugally
    Is not a machine that can do a better job to provide for the citizens, with the money taken from it's citizens, than the citizens can do themselves.
    Is not an entity that should rule over the citizens to protect them from themselves, their ideas and their rights that are not endowed by the government, but by God Himself.  No government person or agency will ever care more about the welfare of a citizen or group of citizens than the citizens themselves.  In other words, we don't need protection from  our own decision making.
    Is not an organization that should legislate freedoms, faith or morality, in ways that redefine morality from the original definitions found in documents and common understanding of that time, without at least a  2/3 vote to amend the Constitution.
    Is not Scandinavia, Amsterdam, France, Sweden or the EU.  We are not designed to be one of these Socialist or Socialist leaning countries, and we will not function as one.  If people love the redistribution of wealth, being told what to do, and the moral depravity in these places, perhaps they should consider a move to one of them, rather than promoting the abandonment of the US Constitution in favor of adoption of Socialist agendas that do not fit our framework.
    Is not the ultimate protector of personal property, and personal peace keeper, by removing personal gun rights which allow citizens to defend themselves, families and property
    Is not the educator of children
    Is not the parents of children
    Is not the authority over children, families or parents when the citizens are abiding by the law
    Is not the machine that can create ideas, visions, businesses, wealth or innovation
    Is not the machine that can fix problems by increasing money taken from those who work hard

While there are many more things the government is not in place to do, and was not established to be, this covers some of the basics that are now fundamentally misunderstood by the greater population.


----------



## nealtw

Can I add to that list with just what I think.
Gov should not build a big military to protect multi national company interest.
Gov should not support dictators for cheap oil and wonder why the people there hate the country
Gov should not build bridges and ports for the aid of big business, they build that them selves.


I think it is great to read this stuff but you do have to squint a little to see what is missing, people are allowed to think for them selves.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> Can I add to that list with just what I think.
> Gov should not build a big military to protect multi national company interest.
> Gov should not support dictators for cheap oil and wonder why the people there hate the country
> Gov should not build bridges and ports for the aid of big business, they build that them selves.
> 
> 
> I think it is great to read this stuff but you do have to squint a little to see what is missing, people are allowed to think for them selves.



no Neal,  that is not domestic issues

those go on a different  form


----------



## Chris

Well today is the day, get off your *** and vote for who you think is the best candidate.


----------



## Chris

I voted! Let the best man win.


----------



## slownsteady

I voted. :wavingflag::thumbup:


----------



## nealtw

predictions??????????


----------



## slownsteady

Chaos for the next four years....................


----------



## Chris

Lots of upset people


----------



## Chris

The suspense is killing me, Can't focus at work.



Like I could before?


----------



## frodo

I voted, trump won, we are just waiting one the guys to announce it


----------



## nealtw

Clinton---------309
senate ---------50/50


----------



## Chris

Now why is Obama out pushing for Hillary? Why are we as tax payers paying him to go push for her election?


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Now why is Obama out pushing for Hillary? Why are we as tax payers paying him to go push for her election?



Because the law allows it. He has more than 50% approval. After the way Trump treated him, can you blame him.


----------



## Chris

So the law allows him to spend tax payer money on supporting a presidential candidate? I agree he can back whoever he wants but he probably shouldn't be spending my money doing it.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> So the law allows him to spend tax payer money on supporting a presidential candidate? I agree he can back whoever he wants but he probably shouldn't be spending my money doing it.



Both sides do it when the approval rate is good enough.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> Both sides do it when the approval rate is good enough.



Does that make it legal and ok to do?


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Does that make it legal and ok to do?



I am sure it was put in place before they had 747s and an army of SS. It's legal for all elected people and he and the VP can't travel any cheaper so I don't how or who would change it.

I am more of just as long as they honestly play within the rules guy.
I accept what ever the result and spend little time complaining, I spend my time to figure out how best to play my new hand. Really that's all I see anyone can do. Play the hand that is given you and you get a new hand every few years.


----------



## oldognewtrick

Chris said:


> Well today is the day, get off your *** and vote for who you think is the best candidate.



Done...walked right in, no wait. My hunting buddy's wife waited an hour and a half this morning to vote.


----------



## oldognewtrick

nealtw said:


> predictions??????????



My worst fear...one of them will win...


----------



## oldognewtrick

And this is the last thing I have to say about the election...maybe


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> Because the law allows it. He has more than 50% approval. After the way Trump treated him, can you blame him.




"I think president Obama has been the most ignorant president in our history. His views of the world as he says don't jibe and the world is a mess, Trump told reporters at a press conference in Florida. He has been a disaster as a president. He will go down as one of the worst presidents in the history of our country. It is a mess. And I believe that Hillary Clinton will be even worse.

President Obama when he became president, he didn't know anything. This guy didnt know a thing, Trump continued. And honestly, today he knows less. Today, he knows less. He has done a terrible job.


The Truth stings doesn't it ?  
He IS already being called the 2nd worse president we hjave ever had,

the top three worse presidents we have had are 
J Carter
B clinton
b obama


----------



## havasu

Jibe or Jive? Either way fits that Mooslim president.


----------



## nealtw

havasu said:


> Jibe or Jive? Either way fits that Mooslim president.



All that does is say everything about who you are.
You don't have respect, you don't deserve any.:down:


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> All that does is say everything about who you are.
> You don't have respect, you don't deserve any.:down:



Is someone supposed to respect them because of their title? Kind of like the respect your elders thing, even if they are touching you inappropriately?

I have a form of respect as he is the leader of the free world but I also agree he did not do a good job, he cost us a lot of money and embarrassment and has no back bone with other countries.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Is someone supposed to respect them because of their title? Kind of like the respect your elders thing, even if they are touching you inappropriately?
> 
> I have a form of respect as he is the leader of the free world but I also agree he did not do a good job, he cost us a lot of money and embarrassment and has no back bone with other countries.


 
So all you are doing, is stating your view, your pain, your opinion.

He is not my President and I would not have voted for him if I could have.
But for any free world country to work it requires the respect of the people even if they disagree with him.

Any one thinks it is OK to insult him, the 50 something % of the people who like him or the fine Muslim Americans, can do so but will find that I too have a voice.


----------



## VanMark

I believe that there are alot out there that are going to vote for Trump but dont go around telling everyone to avoid conflict.i,m in favour of not being politically correct but I was raised old school and there is just another generation out there


----------



## havasu

Sorry Neal, but maybe I am jaded because some of them fine Muslim folks killed ~3,000 Americans. Sorry, but until I see the Muslims actually denounce what happened, rather than harboring them, then you are right, you have your opinion and *I have mine*.


----------



## nealtw

havasu said:


> Sorry Neal, but maybe I am jaded because some of them fine Muslim folks killed ~3,000 Americans. Sorry, but until I see the Muslims actually denounce what happened, rather than harboring them, then you are right, you have your opinion and *I have mine*.



Just so everyone here understands what I will do.
Especially those people that have moderator under there name and most active members, as we like it or not represent this site.
This site is only here for one reason and it is not the same reason we are here.

It requires members and turning off members, some of whom you don't like, is not very productive.

If it were my site, I would make the same rules as if it was a store front business.
Any person make disparaging remarks about or to a person or group would be asked to leave.


----------



## Chris

havasu said:


> Sorry Neal, but maybe I am jaded because some of them fine Muslim folks killed ~3,000 Americans. Sorry, but until I see the Muslims actually denounce what happened, rather than harboring them, then you are right, you have your opinion and *I have mine*.



It's a new day and age. Look Around at what has changed in the last 10-15 years since the internet and Cable Tv and communication in general got real easy. People don't have the same values and support for America that they used to. I was raised in an America that would kick your *** if you spit in our face, now we run and apologize. Our younger generation are sensitive weak socialism loving wussies and we are to blame. We have let our youth grow up to be like this, we let our schools take away anything that makes America strong. We spend more energy and time making sure everyone else is comfortable that we can not even do American things any more. We can't pray in school but we have to let the Muslim pray in school. Our kids get sent home for wearing an american flag shirt because flags are no longer allowed. We are evil uncaring people if we want to save our money or own a gun. This is not the America I grew up in. I am scared to see what it will be in another 20 years. Go onto national things and we have to let racist thugs burn down cities and crush cop cars because the president calls it a peaceful protest. We have to accept these same thugs wanting to do harm to our police. It is ok for people to beat up people because of their political preference. We have lost every bit of respect and fear anyone ever had in us.


This is the land of opportunity or used to be. Since when can a person who does not want to work have the ability to milk the system to make as much money as a small business owner and live the very exact lifestyle? This country is no longer business friendly and do everything they can to keep you from really succeeding. Between taxes and regulation nothing can get done except for people getting rich. There is a fee for anything and everything.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> Just so everyone here understands what I will do.
> Especially those people that have moderator under there name and most active members, as we like it or not represent this site.
> This site is only here for one reason and it is not the same reason we are here.
> 
> It requires members and turning off members, some of whom you don't like, is not very productive.
> 
> If it were my site, I would make the same rules as if it was a store front business.
> Any person make disparaging remarks about or to a person or group would be asked to leave.



We could make a section that you have to ask for permission to enter? Might help with things like this.


----------



## havasu

Yep, and after today, this site will remove all this hatred and politics, and return to normalcy. Since I am just a volunteer here, and the upper management wants to ban me for my beliefs, well, so be it. I am a man who can handle anything that is dished out. I do not cower to those with different beliefs.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> All that does is say everything about who you are.
> You don't have respect, you don't deserve any.:down:




No Neal,  this does not say everything about Havasu.  he is giving an opinion.
what this does do is say a lot about YOU.

their is a word for  "a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions."


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> Just so everyone here understands what I will do.
> Especially those people that have moderator under there name and most active members, as we like it or not represent this site.
> This site is only here for one reason and it is not the same reason we are here.
> 
> It requires members and turning off members, some of whom you don't like, is not very productive.
> 
> If it were my site, I would make the same rules as if it was a store front business.
> Any person make disparaging remarks about or to a person or group would be asked to leave.



like the remark you made to Havasu ?


----------



## nealtw

havasu said:


> Yep, and after today, this site will remove all this hatred and politics, and return to normalcy. Since I am just a volunteer here, and the upper management wants to ban me for my beliefs, well, so be it. I am a man who can handle anything that is dished out. I do not cower to those with different beliefs.



I would absolutely defend your right to think and feel anything. I just think if you can't find a way to say it with out hurting other good people. Then don't say it.


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> like the remark you made to Havasu ?



Absolutely. Did I make a remark about what I think he might be? 
I told him I don't respect him for what he said


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> I would absolutely defend your right to think and feel anything. I just think if you can't find a way to say it with out hurting other good people. Then don't say it.



Then why did you say Havasu does not deserve any respect ,?

you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> Absolutely. Did I make a remark about what I think he might be?
> I told him I don't respect him for what he said




no sir,,your words were "you do not deserve any"

NOT,  "I dont respect him for what he said"


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> No Neal,  this does not say everything about Havasu.  he is giving an opinion.
> what this does do is say a lot about YOU.
> 
> their is a word for  "a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions."



You have know Idea what my opinion is on any subject that we have ever discussed an any of these threads like this,

We have only discussed what you guys post with out regard for truth, facts or respect for others.

To be honest, I  have said a few things to get under peoples skin and sometimes that works.

Like yourself, when you get upset you start by using my name and when you are angry you put a Mr in front of it.


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> Then why did you say Havasu does not deserve any respect ,?
> 
> you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.



I don't think so, if you don't respect me, you like anyone else is entitled to say so.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> All that does is say everything about who you are.
> You don't have respect, you don't deserve any.:down:




I believe I know exactly what your opinion is, you stated it perfectly clear right here in this post



I'm Done


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> no sir,,your words were "you do not deserve any"
> 
> NOT,  "I dont respect him for what he said"



And now after all you have said you are going to pick on my exact words,
priceless.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> You have know Idea what my opinion is on any subject that we have ever discussed an any of these threads like this,
> 
> *We have only discussed what you guys post with out regard for truth, facts or respect for others*.
> 
> To be honest, I  have said a few things to get under peoples skin and sometimes that works.
> 
> Like yourself, when you get upset you start by using my name and when you are angry you put a Mr in front of it.



Remember this is going both ways in this thread.


----------



## tk3000

The idea that a misfit, ignorant, demagogue is winning is truly insane.

Democratic system does not work when the baseline of the voter base is made up of ignorant and illiterate people.


----------



## Chris

tk3000 said:


> The idea that a misfit, ignorant, demagogue is winning is truly insane.
> 
> Democratic system does not work when the baseline of the voter base is made up of ignorant and illiterate people.



I know, it's about time we get the educated responsible Americans out to vote to finally fix the hole in this sinking ship.

Trump 2016


----------



## Chris

I've never seen newscasters shaking in their seats like this before.


----------



## havasu

Is it time to start buying trowels for that wall?


----------



## Chris

That's racist!


----------



## havasu

Chris said:


> That's racist!



Yeah, I've been called worse today. :trophy:


----------



## havasu

Dow futures are down 700 points. They are also seeing something happening.


----------



## Chris

People are scared of Trump. Expect a lot of change over the next year.


----------



## havasu

Yep.. Some good and bad. You hear we can now buy pot anywhere, but need to be registered and give your first born just to buy a box of bullets?


----------



## Chris

Yeah, that makes sense. Glad I can get high and glad my young nephew now has no reason not to.


----------



## Chris

I can't believe people think Trump is a hardcore racist. I honestly don't know where they get this from? Is it because he wants to build a wall?


----------



## nealtw

Canada's immigration website crashes on election night:help:

This in our news tonight.


----------



## slownsteady

I'm not too afraid of trump as president. There are enough checks and balances to keep him from getting too ambitious (besides the alien overlords that live beneath the White House really control things anyway). What worries me is the large herd of yahoos that now think it's alright to come out of the woodwork.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> Canada's immigration website crashes on election night:help:
> 
> This in our news tonight.



That's funny. Too many people running.


----------



## slownsteady

Neal may have to come out of retirement to build houses for all those illegal American immigrants now moving to Canada. Build a wall, Neal!!!


----------



## Chris

slownsteady said:


> I'm not too afraid of trump as president. There are enough checks and balances to keep him from getting too ambitious (besides the alien overlords that live beneath the White House really control things anyway). What worries me is the large herd of yahoos that now think it's alright to come out of the woodwork.



If he gets it it will definitely be like nothing we have seen. Hopefully in the long run it will be a good shake up.


----------



## Chris

slownsteady said:


> Neal may have to come out of retirement to build houses for all those illegal American immigrants now moving to Canada. Build a wall, Neal!!!



And make America pay for it!


----------



## havasu

My hope all along was to have Trump put the necessary experts in the positions to make decisions that really make a difference.


----------



## tk3000

slownsteady said:


> Neal may have to come out of retirement to build houses for all those illegal American immigrants now moving to Canada. Build a wall, Neal!!!



I am for one think that British Columbia on the West coast of Canada is very appealing with a nice weather!


----------



## nealtw

tk3000 said:


> I am for one think that British Columbia on the West coast of Canada is very appealing with a nice weather!



The rain does keep the dust down.


----------



## Chris

What is rain


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> What is rain



It's like taking a shower while you work.


----------



## Chris

I dream of that


----------



## frodo

looks like Trump is the new President


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> looks like Trump is the new President


..................:agree:


----------



## Chris

Gonna be a lot of celebrities moving to Canada today Neal. Get that wall built quick.


----------



## havasu

I hope we can get back to what this forum was intended for, however I still believe a healthy debate is what America is all about. 

Can we all agree to shake hands and let sleeping dogs lie?


----------



## Chris

I'm going on vacation to Neal's place this summer.


----------



## Chris

I sure wish the liberals would stop trying to racially divide us worse than we are. This morning if you are a Trump supporter you are being called a racist. This is how we divide the country instead of bringing us together to move forward.


----------



## frodo

liberals are whining like puppies this morning


----------



## Sparky617

Not a Trump fan but I'm sure glad HRC lost.  I'm all for a woman president, just not THAT woman.


----------



## Chris

Sparky617 said:


> Not a Trump fan but I'm sure glad HRC lost.



That's would have been a scary next 4 years.


----------



## Chris

That's it! Trump won, I'm moving to idaho.


----------



## Chris

So far I am surprised with hillary speech. I think it is very good and she is being very polite and supportive of trump. Now if both sides could just work together like this all the time life would be good.


----------



## nealtw

Wish him all the power in the world to do a god job. but he will have that shortly anyway.
He will have to smooth the waters with other countries, friends and foes.
He has to reduce the fear felt by a lot of citizens and somehow reduce the rhetoric of the hard core.


----------



## Chris

I think he can do it. He knows how to put the right people in charge. Hopefully he can slap some sense into government waste while he is at it.


----------



## nealtw

He lit a lot of fires. Will he want to continue to keep is base happy and if he doesn't will he still have that support.
What do his supporters do when they realize he cannot do much of what he said.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> He lit a lot of fires. Will he want to continue to keep is base happy and if he doesn't will he still have that support.
> What do his supporters do when they realize he cannot do much of what he said.









what do you see as a problem


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> View attachment 12829
> 
> 
> what do you see as a problem



Most of that is common sense and some like extreme vetting is already in place.

My thoughts were more about what he was saying that got you fired up, that didn't find it's way into that paper.

The GOP does not like to spend money that they don't have so with out taxes or something he could have a problem with his own party.

How will you feel if it looks like he buckled to the same old.

The same old will be careful so they can maintain the congress in two years.

You can be sure that he understands that too.

A lot of people that voted for him don't understand what he was saying that felt racist to a lot of people. He has to heel that, or not. But it is a huge balancing act, to ease the fear while  holding onto supporters.

I am sure you know more of them than I do. Will they support him no matter what or will they turn on him with the same venom as we heard against Obama or Clinton


----------



## havasu

Seems like just alot of sour grape "I told you so" rhetoric. 

Good lord, Rome wasn't built in a day, and it will take more than a few months to undo all of Obammie's wrong doings. 

Just say'n


----------



## HandyOne

If he revamps tariffs on imports that may bring in some of that money that is being worried about.


----------



## nealtw

havasu said:


> Seems like just alot of sour grape "I told you so" rhetoric.
> 
> Good lord, Rome wasn't built in a day, and it will take more than a few months to undo all of Obammie's wrong doings.
> 
> Just say'n



No, it is time to get behind him as he is the chosen one but understanding that he can not deliver all of what he said, at least not under the system your founding fathers laid out.
Rome was destroyed much faster than it was built
Rome is great for studying but not copied.


----------



## havasu

If Trump is successful in righting just one Obammie wrong, we will have someone I consider a winner.


----------



## frodo

this is funny


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=grD_IINiH9c


----------



## slownsteady

frodo said:


> this is funny
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=grD_IINiH9c


Is it??? :down:


----------



## havasu

That is the difference, if YOUR choices would have won the election, we would just sit here quietly as we have the last 8 years or our lives.


----------



## slownsteady

Are you trying to tell me that Frodo sat there quietly.....now _that's_ funny.:rofl:


----------



## zannej

Well, I admit I'm disappointed because Trump wasn't who I would have picked-- but neither was Hillary. I'm not going to freak out and declare he's not my president or anything. Even though he lost the popular vote (albeit by a small margin) he won the EC vote. Another reason why I think the EC should be abolished (and I would say the same thing if he won the popular vote but lost the EC because I think the EC just needs to go).

I can only hope that he will focus more on the positive aspects that he proposed doing and doesn't follow through with any threats of retaliation. 

I'm really hoping he will prove the media wrong and actually be good for our country.


----------



## slownsteady

zannej said:


> Well, I admit I'm disappointed because Trump wasn't who I would have picked-- but neither was Hillary. I'm not going to freak out and declare he's not my president or anything. Even though he lost the popular vote (albeit by a small margin) he won the EC vote. Another reason why I think the EC should be abolished (and I would say the same thing if he won the popular vote but lost the EC because I think the EC just needs to go).
> 
> I can only hope that he will focus more on the positive aspects that he proposed doing and doesn't follow through with any threats of retaliation.
> 
> I'm really hoping he will prove the media wrong and actually be good for our country.


That is all anyone can hope for. With his avoidance of getting specific on most issues his presidency really is a blank slate.


----------



## Chris

I hope he makes it illegal for people to riot in the streets when things don't go their way


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> I hope he makes it illegal for people to riot in the streets when things don't go their way



That would be changing your constitution.


----------



## nealtw

zannej said:


> Well, I admit I'm disappointed because Trump wasn't who I would have picked-- but neither was Hillary. I'm not going to freak out and declare he's not my president or anything. Even though he lost the popular vote (albeit by a small margin) he won the EC vote. Another reason why I think the EC should be abolished (and I would say the same thing if he won the popular vote but lost the EC because I think the EC just needs to go).
> 
> I can only hope that he will focus more on the positive aspects that he proposed doing and doesn't follow through with any threats of retaliation.
> 
> I'm really hoping he will prove the media wrong and actually be good for our country.



There are far more arguments for the EC than what you might think.
In parliamentary systems , they are called ridings,  And each one is a member of parliament, but the fed. gov. can redraw the boundaries to fit their needs.

I think that the GOP would seldom win if it was just pop. vote, so it does provide a more balance result. The fear is always the big cities would decide every election. That doesn't work for the rest of the country.


----------



## applebear

Chris said:


> I hope he makes it illegal for people to riot in the streets when things don't go their way



Tbh it would have been the same if Trump didn't win. This election was overall, hurricane Crazy. 

I hope things calm down soon [though I'm leery, as people are STILL complaining about obama and he's about out], and Trump remembers half of what he said in his acceptance speech. If he himself can say we need to all unite, maybe there's hope everyone can get on the same page as he sets a good example there and leads the way. 

Some things in this thread I understand and agree. Some really saddened me.


----------



## frodo

slownsteady said:


> That is all anyone can hope for. With his avoidance of getting specific on most issues his presidency really is a blank slate.



the only reason you think he has not gotten specific on the issues, is because you have not bothered to read the specifics
he has been more specific than ANY other candidate

when Obama won the election,  of course I vented my frustration, I did not 
riot, or  threaten to kill democrats or threaten to move to another country


----------



## frodo

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/immigration-reform/
nothing in hillery's platform for securing the border from terrorist threat, drug smuggling, sex smuggling, or illegal aliens

the president MAIN job is to protect our borders. [that is in the constitution]

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/policies/immigration

Trumps stance on immigration is VERY specific,  more so than hillery
who does not address the border at all,,,,


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> That would be changing your constitution.



no Neal, peaceful  protesting is legal, rioting is not legal


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> no Neal, peaceful  protesting is legal, rioting is not legal



And rioting is already breaking the law:trophy:


----------



## frodo

Live footage of a liberal  anti Trump Riot 


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oovqs8rHSTE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oovqs8rHSTE[/ame]


----------



## Chris

Yes. But they turn there heads from it when it is liberals doing it, same as BLM.


----------



## nealtw

Chris, frodo; look in the mirror, you both have been here protesting the government for ever, on every issue.
I suspect it was so you could find a group of people that agreed with you so you could walk thru the forum with signs,so you could vent your anger and fears.
And I would bet you didn't wait for him to do anything before you started.
Just saying.


----------



## frodo

you do not seem to be able to comprehend the difference between  voicing an opinion,  peaceful protest,  and rioting



Chris,  they did not arrest anyone in Ferguson, Or Baltimore, even though they had video footage to ID them

They will not arrest these guys either. BUT  let a white republican  riot and he will be arrested


----------



## nealtw

Bitch, bitch, bitch.........


----------



## havasu

LAPD arrested 18 persons last night in Los Angeles. They took off their clothing and ran onto the freeway, blocking cars for hours. They spray painted "F*** Trump on a dozen police cars, spray painted graffiti all over the Times Newspaper building, and caused hundreds of thousands in damage. These kids were mostly Hispanic and I'm guessing that none were able to vote because they themselves were undocumented?


----------



## Chris

I agree, complaining on an online forum seen by few is very different than vandalizing police cars and spray painting all over the place.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> I agree, complaining on an online forum seen by few is very different than vandalizing police cars and spray painting all over the place.



No body with half a brain is advocating for vandalism.


----------



## frodo

havasu said:


> LAPD arrested 18 persons last night in Los Angeles. They took off their clothing and ran onto the freeway, blocking cars for hours. They spray painted "F*** Trump on a dozen police cars, spray painted graffiti all over the Times Newspaper building, and caused hundreds of thousands in damage. These kids were mostly Hispanic and I'm guessing that none were able to vote because they themselves were undocumented?



are they going to send them back or let them go ?


----------



## nealtw

Canada has invited Trump to visit.


----------



## slownsteady

Can you get him to stay???? 

post #573 is photoshopped, BTW.


----------



## havasu

slownsteady said:


> post #573 is photoshopped, BTW.



You're kidding, right? :rofl:


----------



## Snoonyb

slownsteady said:


> Can you get him to stay????
> 
> post #573 is photoshopped, BTW.



And makes the point.

Garcetti won't send them anyplace except back to Alvarado St., or Boyle Heights where they came from.


----------



## slownsteady

havasu said:


> You're kidding, right? :rofl:


Yeah, I know it's kind of obvious, but you never know who's swallowing the BS anymore.


----------



## frodo

just cant get good forgery work done these days,  every body is a artist that has a pc


----------



## Chris

I just saw a video of two young black men beating an older white man in an intersection because he had a Trump sticker in his car. Why are these things being allowed to happen? Is this not a hate crime?


----------



## slownsteady

Allowed to happen?  Do you think the cops are *letting* this happen?


----------



## slownsteady

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/media/embed/84870597


----------



## frodo

concealed carry, 

noticed they do not pull that crap here where every one carries.


----------



## Chris

slownsteady said:


> Allowed to happen?  Do you think the cops are *letting* this happen?



Not so much letting but more could probably be done to find and prosecute


----------



## frodo

https://www.greatagain.gov/


----------



## havasu

We are still under Obama's control where only a white on black incident is a hate crime.


----------



## oldognewtrick

slownsteady said:


> Can you get him to stay????
> 
> post #573 is photoshopped, BTW.




If it's not ok for us to bitch about Hillary, set the example and show us how when you disagree with national direction, you keep a stiff upper lip.


----------



## frodo

On his transition website GreatAgain.gov, the Trump team has laid out the framework of his initial policies with policies focused i) on American Security including as Defense and National security, Immigration Reform and Building That Wall, and Energy Independence; ii) Getting America Back to Work Again including Tax Reform; Regulatory Reform; Trade Reform; Education; Transportation & Infrastructure and Financial Services Reform; and iii) Government for the people including Healthcare Reform (Obamacare), Veterans Administration Reform and Protecting Americans' Constitutional Rights.

The key highlights include:

ADVERTISING


overhaul in immigration policies, including "Building that Wall" , the Trump transition team will "execute on the following ten-point plan to restore integrity to our immigration system, protect our communities, and put America first" - i) Build a Wall on the Southern Border; ii) End Catch-and-Release; iii) Zero Tolerance for Criminal Aliens; iv) Block Funding for Sanctuary Cities; v) Cancel Unconstitutional Executive Orders & Enforce All Immigration Laws; vi) Suspend the Issuance of Visas to Any Place Where Adequate Screening Cannot Occur; vii) Ensure that Other Countries Take Their People Back When We Order Them Deported; viii) Finally Complete the Biometric Entry-Exit Visa Tracking System; ix) Turn Off the Jobs and Benefits Magnet
promoting a strong, robust military force to defend against the "threat posed to our nation and our allies by radical ideologies that direct and inspire terrorism." The administration will push for immediate and sustainable actions to counter the threats posed by radical ideologies; will address the "catastrophic threats posed by nuclear weapons and cyber attacks" and will "ensure our strategic nuclear triad is modernized to ensure it continues to be an effective deterrent, and his Administration will review and minimize our nation&#8217;s infrastructure vulnerabilities to cyber threats."
dismantling and replacing of the Dodd-Frank Act financial-sector law with pro-growth policies. This means that banks will be allowed to not only engage in prop trading again, but to invest directly in hedge funds. &#8220;The Dodd-Frank economy does not work for working people. Bureaucratic red tape and Washington mandates are not the answer,&#8221; says statement on Trump&#8217;s official transition website.
changing the tax code: policies since President Obama took office &#8220;have been blocked in one way or another&#8221; by Democratic opposition, the transition website says in section outlining &#8220;tax reform/economic vision.&#8221; It adds that &#8220;a Trump administration tax plan can be summarized as lower, simpler, fairer, and pro-growth.&#8221; as the website summarizes "a Trump Administration tax plan can be summarized as lower, simpler, fairer, and pro-growth."
addressing the millions of American jobs that have been lost over the last decade "because of trade deals that do not put Americans first."  The administration will "reverse decades of policies that have pushed jobs out of our country" by making it more desirable for companies to stay, create jobs here, pay taxes here, and rebuild the economy. The new Administration will make it more desirable for companies to stay, create jobs here, pay taxes here, and rebuild our economy.  Our workers and the communities that support them will thrive again, as more and more companies compete to set up manufacturing in the U.S., to hire our young people and give them hope and a real shot at prosperity again.  America will become, once more, a destination for jobs, production and innovation and will once more show economic leadership in the world.
fixing education: Trump will advance policies to support learning-and-earning opportunities at the state and local levels for approximately 70 million school-age students, 20 million post-secondary students, and 150 million working adults, To achieve this, Trump will promote high-quality early childhood, magnet, STEAM or theme-based programs; expansion of choice through charters, vouchers, and teacher-driven learning models; and relief from U.S. Department of Education regulations that inhibit innovation.
restructuring US energy policies including ending the "war on coal": "make full use" of both renewable and tradition energy sources. "America will unleash an energy revolution that will transform us into a net energy exporter, leading to the creation of millions of new jobs, while protecting the country&#8217;s most valuable resources &#8211;- our clean air, clean water, and natural habitats,&#8221; the website says. &#8220;The Trump administration is firmly committed to conserving our wonderful natural resources and beautiful natural habitats." The transition team also vows to open onshore and offshore leasing for federal land and waters for fossil fuel producers, streamline energy permitting, end &#8220;war on coal.&#8221; The site also pledges &#8220;top-down review of all anti-coal regulations issued by the Obama administration.&#8221;
"Repeal Obamacare" - the Trump administration will work with Congress to repeal Affordable Care Act with replacement that "returns the historic role in regulating health insurance to the states," according to transition plan released Thursday. Replacement would include promotion of Health Savings Accounts and option to buy insurance across states lines. The transition team also says it will act to &#8220;protect innocent human life from conception to natural death, including the most defenseless and those Americans with disabilities&#8221; and "modernize Medicare, so that it will be ready for the challenges with the coming retirement of the Baby Boom generation &#8211; and beyond."
protect Americans' constitutional rights: the Trump administration will veto legislation that exceeds Congressional authority, take actions as Chief Executive and Commander-in-Chief that are consistent with his constitutional role, and nominate Judges and Supreme Court Justices who are committed to interpreting the Constitution and laws according to their original public meaning.  Trump says "he will defend Americans' fundamental rights to free speech, religious liberty, keeping and bearing arms, and all other rights guaranteed to them in the Bill of Rights and other constitutional provisions." He hopes to minimize the role of government including the "Tenth Amendment guarantee that many areas of governance are left to the people and the States, and are not the role of the federal government to fulfill."
The full breakdown can be found here.


----------



## havasu

oldognewtrick said:


> If it's not ok for us to *bitch* about *Hillary*, set the example and show us how when you disagree with national direction, you keep a stiff upper lip.



synonymous wording there buddy :hide:


----------



## Snoonyb

slownsteady said:


> Allowed to happen?  Do you think the cops are *letting* this happen?



Like in Baltimore?


----------



## havasu

I guess Trump knows a thing or two about making America Great Again after all?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/mexico-sa...181527988.html


----------



## KULTULZ

havasu said:


> These kids were mostly Hispanic and I'm guessing that none were able to vote because they themselves were undocumented?





Since when do you have to be documented to vote? All you have to do is find a dead or moved voter (service provided by DNC) on the register and go for it.


----------



## KULTULZ

frodo said:


> are they going to send them back or let them go ?



Can't send them back. They will be issued a court appearance ticket and fade back into the barrio.


----------



## KULTULZ

Chris said:


> I just saw a video of two young black men beating an older white man in an intersection because he had a Trump sticker in his car. Why are these things being allowed to happen? Is this not a hate crime?





Uh Chris,

A hate crime is one that is committed on/to a minority. Whites are not considered a minority quite yet. They are working on it though.


----------



## KULTULZ

nealtw said:


> Canada has invited Trump to visit.





Why? 

He is not a socialist.


----------



## KULTULZ

slownsteady said:


> Allowed to happen?
> 
> Do you think the cops are *letting* this happen?



The police are few in numbers and are being controlled by political interests. What happened to the CHI female officer that got her butt kicked and was afraid to pull her weapon over concern she would cause an incident?

Inner cities are free-fire zones. You have no business there.


----------



## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> Why?
> 
> He is not a socialist.



Why, not sure, maybe because we have the longest unguarded boarder in the world. The two countries are probably best two friends in the world.

Maybe it's because of the NORAD system.

Maybe it's about a new tax on trucks going to Alaska.

Could be about Oil and Oil and Gas pipes or the Canadian Trains running all over the states.

Could be over water agreements or the well being of the fish stock or wildlife that know no borders.

Could be an attempt to get to know your adversary and set some ground rules.

Don't be fooled by party names up here, if you have some idea of voting right or left or somewhere in between, you need a play book to figure out which party to vote for.

It was Kiefer Sutherland's grandfather that put a Single payer health plan in one province . He was in a party CCF, now known as New Democratic party .
That went so well all the right wing governments went for it too.
Go figure


----------



## nealtw

havasu said:


> We are still under Obama's control where only a white on black incident is a hate crime.



I would bet, if you looked up the % charged you will find far more blacks are charged than whites, just guessing.


----------



## frodo

KULTULZ said:


> Uh Chris,
> 
> A hate crime is one that is committed on/to a minority. Whites are not considered a minority quite yet. They are working on it though.



WRONG,,,

Wisconsin v. Mitchell  508 U.S. 476  [1993]

Others are prosecuted have been prosecuted for hate crimes against us crackers


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> I would bet, if you looked up the % charged you will find far more blacks are charged than whites, just guessing.




thats because the % of blacks committing crimes is higher for blacks.

they are 17% of the US population but they commit 56% of the crime


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> I would bet, if you looked up the % charged you will find far more blacks are charged than whites, just guessing.



Primarily, it's jurisdictional, however as a national average it's the opposite.

Chicago, as a for instance, is the murder capitol of the US, because of black-on-black crime.

It's also obamas home turf, has been run by DISMALCRATES for decades.

And there-in lies the problem.


----------



## KULTULZ

frodo said:


> thats because the % of blacks committing crimes is higher for blacks.







> they are 17% of the US population but they commit 56% of the crime



Calling a percentage is like calling the total number of illegals here, how in the world could you count them all? Even postal carriers need protection in some areas.


----------



## KULTULZ

frodo said:


> WRONG,,,
> 
> Wisconsin v. Mitchell  508 U.S. 476  [1993]
> 
> Others are prosecuted have been prosecuted for hate crimes against us crackers



Well, that is an opinion. There is no need for so-called hate crimes. Either a law has been broken or not, simple as that. Doesn't matter if it is a he/she/it/mutant/grey or those of a different ethnicity. Hate crimes are merely a reason to supposedly protect the less fortunate and those that cannot compete in a free society.

While someone has spent big legal money to aquire that ruling, having it enforced fairly across this crooked political landscape is unlikely.


----------



## havasu

Some of our good, honest members from our other gun forums are reporting that they are now being confronted and challenged to fight by groups of young individuals, assuming that they were Trump supporters. 

If you have a concealed weapons permit, please carry and be aware that this could also happen to you. If you do not have a concealed weapons permit, please be ultra aware of your surroundings!


----------



## Chris

havasu said:


> Some of our good, honest members from our other gun forums are reporting that they are now being confronted and challenged to fight by groups of young individuals, assuming that they were Trump supporters.
> 
> If you have a concealed weapons permit, please carry and be aware that this could also happen to you. If you do not have a concealed weapons permit, please be ultra aware of your surroundings!



I'm 6'3" 260 pounds, not to many people come and pick fights with me


----------



## slownsteady

Well since bashing Hillary and "Obammie" are still in fashion, I might as well join right in..


----------



## havasu

^ I see Trump has been given copies of Obama's White House briefings?


----------



## slownsteady

can someone please define "dismalcrates"?


----------



## havasu

http://challengetheestablishment.blogspot.sk/2010/07/dismalcrats-and-corupliklans.html


----------



## Snoonyb

slownsteady said:


> can someone please define "dismalcrates"?



It supports the KISS principal by defining the "DISMAL results when the DEMOCRATS operate an elected office".

IE., DISMALCRATS.

California, is once again considering seceding from the union.


----------



## frodo

DISMALCRATS.  kind of like a      " frienemmy "


----------



## havasu

Seems appropriate


----------



## frodo

havasu said:


> Seems appropriate



will never happen, obamma can and i bet will pardon the whole lot of them before he leaves office


----------



## Snoonyb

Everyone at the billary foundation.


----------



## oldognewtrick

slownsteady said:


> Well since bashing Hillary and "Obammie" are still in fashion, I might as well join right in..




Well, he's gotten farther than his predecessor who didn't bother to attend the briefings.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...bama-skipping-FOUR-seven-daily-briefings.html


----------



## havasu

Every time I see a pic of Obama with his heels dug into the top of that 200 year old desk, I just cringe. That is complete disrespect.


----------



## havasu

Trump Calls Slain LEO's Wife

President-elect Donald Trump called slain NYPD Sgt. Paul Tuozzolo's widow Thursday morning and personally extended his "condolences" to her on the day that thousands of police officers paid tribute to the fallen Finest at his funeral.

Sgt. Paul Tuozzolo

"I'm very sorry I cannot be there with you today. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family during this difficult time," Trump told the grieving woman, according to a source.

"I want to express my condolences from me and my family."


MAKE.....AMERICA.....GREAT.....AGAIN


----------



## frodo

let me guess.   o****forbrains   has still not called.

disrespectful sob


----------



## VanMark

Since Trump has become President-Elect:

1. Russia and Syria have publicly announced wanting peace with the U.S.

2. Israel's Prime Minister announced that they want to repair the damaged relationship between them and the U.S.

3. DOW closed yesterday at an all-time high. 

4. Canada and Mexico have announced they are willing to renegotiate NAFTA with the U.S.

All in two days of electing Trump. Bad week for SJWs, great week for America and the world.


----------



## frodo

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d9lm-T87AQ[/ame]


i agree with this. he is speaking the truth


----------



## Chris

I want to thank Larry the Cable Guy for a new name for millennials, they are now the Cupcake generation.


----------



## frodo

Chris said:


> I want to thank Larry the Cable Guy for a new name for millennials, they are now the Cupcake generation.



:rofl::rofl::thbup:


----------



## Chris

So I thought you guys might be curious of what did change in California this election.

We are not allowed to have grocery bags any more but we can buy them for 10 cents each. this is only for grocery places, we can still pollute with all the other stores bags.

We can smoke pot like its 1968.

We dont have to wear condoms while making porno movies.

cant buy AR15 anymore or move to this state with them.

anything more than 10 round magazines are supposed to be disposed of.

have to pay for and have a background check to buy ammunition and limits on how much you can buy and illegal to bring in more than 50 rounds from out of state.

These are just a few of the new great rules, I'm sure there is a few I am forgetting.


----------



## Snoonyb

And the DISMALCRAT reign continues, unabated.


----------



## Chris

Plus a bunch of taxes have gone up in the name of education of which none will likely find its way to the school.

Also almost forgot they are letting a whole bunch of people out of prison for nonviolent crimes like rape, child molestation, drug sales, second degree murder and the like. It will save us millions not caring for them.


----------



## chrisn

Chris said:


> Plus a bunch of taxes have gone up in the name of education of which none will likely find its way to the school.
> 
> Also almost forgot they are letting a whole bunch of people out of prison for nonviolent crimes like rape, child molestation, drug sales, second degree murder and the like. It will save us millions not caring for them.[/QUOTE]
> 
> and cost tens of millions re prosecuting them:hide:


----------



## havasu

chrisn said:


> and cost tens of millions re prosecuting them:hide:



And tens of millions of new victims.


----------



## frodo

Chris said:


> Also almost forgot they are letting a whole bunch of people out of prison for nonviolent crimes like rape, child molestation, drug sales, second degree murder and the like. It will save us millions not caring for them.



wonder how many are illegal ?



they want to restrict your ability to defend your self and family

at the same time they release violent offenders into the community.

oh,,,,for the record, they might have been non violent when they went into prison.
but to survive,  they either stayed on their knees or became violent.

50 rounds ?   I can eat of 50 rounds in


----------



## frodo

havasu said:


> And tens of millions of new victims.



why is the site computer changing my gif's to jpg  AGAIN ????


----------



## havasu

Are you posting as a gif?


----------



## frodo

havasu said:


> Are you posting as a gif?




yes,   it says gif,,,,then when site computer post, it is a jpg
http://screencast.com/t/MpAKCgpg90

http://screencast.com/t/MvwS6CF8P


----------



## Snoonyb

frodo said:


> wonder how many are illegal ?
> 
> 
> 
> they want to restrict your ability to defend your self and family
> 
> at the same time they release violent offenders into the community.
> 
> oh,,,,for the record, they might have been non violent when they went into prison.
> but to survive,  they either stayed on their knees or became violent.
> 
> 50 rounds ?   I can eat of 50 rounds in



The prison guard union and law enforcement, who insured gov. moonbeams election, view the "revolving door" of the drug industry as a cash cow.


----------



## KULTULZ




----------



## Snoonyb

Californians might vote in 2018 on taking steps toward secession in a 'Calexit'


----------



## havasu

............


----------



## frodo

................


----------



## KULTULZ

Well, Trump has now said he is not going after Hillary after all of that name calling.

Another deal cut and business back to usual..


----------



## nealtw

Chmm.........


----------



## havasu

I believe Trump not prosecuting Killary is sending the wrong message to other crooked politicians.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Plus a bunch of taxes have gone up in the name of education of which none will likely find its way to the school.
> 
> Also almost forgot they are letting a whole bunch of people out of prison for nonviolent crimes like rape, child molestation, drug sales, second degree murder and the like. It will save us millions not caring for them.



How about trying to keep the facts straight.

Proposition 57 increased parole chances for felons convicted of nonviolent crimes and give them more opportunities to earn credits for good behavior. It also allowed judges, not prosecutors, to decide whether to try certain juveniles as adults in court.[2]

http://vig.cdn.sos.ca.gov/2016/general/en/pdf/text-proposed-laws.pdf#prop57


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> I agree, complaining on an online forum seen by few is very different than vandalizing police cars and spray painting all over the place.



And this is different how?

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-obama-hatecrimes-idUSTRE4AN81U20081124


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> ................



This should be handy for you guys that are always crying about gun laws, taxes, health care and all the other things that big people just accept as part of life.


----------



## frodo

KULTULZ said:


> Well, Trump has now said he is not going after Hillary after all of that name calling.
> 
> Another deal cut and business back to usual..





you do not play chess or have ever been in the service have/do  you ?

obummer will pardon hillery in a heart beat,  but really dos not want to.

Do you think trump is stupid enough to say..HELL  YES   I AM GOING TO JAIL THAT BITCH   FIRST DAY !!!

If you had noticed in his speech, he is NOT taking the option off the table

he is trying to let obummer get out of office, before he does or says anything

any other way would not make any sense


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> And this is different how?
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-obama-hatecrimes-idUSTRE4AN81U20081124




i read your   article, isolated incidences , I did not see the word RIOT

or THOUSANDS in property damage

''Hundreds of incidents of abuse or intimidation apparently motivated by racial hatred have been reported since the November 4 election, though most have not involved violence, said the Southern Poverty Law Center.''


I believe an educated person can clearly see the difference

when you run out of straws to grasp,  I'll sell you a bale of hay


----------



## frodo

......................she needs to listen to her own words


----------



## KULTULZ

frodo said:


> you do not play chess or have ever been in the service have/do  you ?



Yes on both.



> obummer will pardon hillery in a heart beat,  but really dos not want to.
> 
> Do you think trump is stupid enough to say..HELL  YES   I AM GOING TO JAIL THAT BITCH   FIRST DAY !!!


He already has.



> If you had noticed in his speech, he is NOT taking the option off the table
> 
> he is trying to let obummer get out of office, before he does or says anything
> 
> any other way would not make any sense


TRUMP has backed off on a special prosecutor. It was for a reason.

NOBAMA, while maybe not wanting to pardon her, will in a NY heartbeat as he is just as culpable as she is in the Libya fiasco. If she goes he will soon follow. And he is concerned of his legacy which is non-existent except for destroying a once great nation.

He is quickly coming to the realization that talk is cheap and he is being advised to not upset status quo as it is totally unrealistic. AMERICA is controlled by lobbyists, not the people.


----------



## frodo

KULTULZ said:


> Yes on both.
> 
> He already has.
> 
> TRUMP has backed off on a special prosecutor. It was for a reason.
> 
> NOBAMA, while maybe not wanting to pardon her, will in a NY heartbeat as he is just as culpable as she is in the Libya fiasco. If she goes he will soon follow. And he is concerned of his legacy which is non-existent except for destroying a once great nation.
> 
> He is quickly coming to the realization that talk is cheap and he is being advised to not upset status quo as it is totally unrealistic. AMERICA is controlled by lobbyists, not the people.



you are entitled to an opinion.


----------



## KULTULZ

This is where it stands-



> President-elect Donald J. Trump said on Tuesday that he had no intention of pressing for an investigation into Hillary Clintons  use of a private email server or the financial operations of her  familys foundation, dropping the lock her up pledge that became a  rallying cry for his campaign for the White House.
> 
> Mr. Trump, who branded his rival Crooked Hillary and said she would go to jail if he were president, said in an interview  with reporters and editors at The New York Times that he was no longer  interested in pursuing Mrs. Clinton, in part because he wanted to heal  the wounds of a divisive campaign.
> 
> I dont want to hurt the Clintons, I really dont, Mr. Trump said


SOURCE- http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/22/us/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-investigation.html?_r=0 

It is not a question of hurting them (IMO) but their being brought up to a fair and balanced justice system. The aristocrats are not subject to the laws we are subjected to.

Now Congress can proceed but they will have no real interest and have bungled several attempts before where they had her dead to rights.

*BAU*- Business As Usual. He is not going to be a decisive president.

I am relieved that she didn't succeed. Whatever happens now will cause much less damage (lesser of two evils).

Now this is IMO. Your mileage may vary.


----------



## KULTULZ

frodo said:


> you are entitled to an opinion.



That is very considerate of you...


----------



## frodo

KULTULZ said:


> This is where it stands-
> 
> SOURCE- http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/22/us/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-investigation.html?_r=0
> 
> It is not a question of hurting them (IMO) but their being brought up to a fair and balanced justice system. The aristocrats are not subject to the laws we are subjected to.
> 
> Now Congress can proceed but they will have no real interest and have bungled several attempts before where they had her dead to rights.
> 
> *BAU*- Business As Usual. He is not going to be a decisive president.
> 
> I am relieved that she didn't succeed. Whatever happens now will cause much less damage (lesser of two evils).
> 
> Now this is IMO. Your mileage may vary.



As Paul Harvey would say
AND NOW,  The REST OF THE STORY


UPDATE, 2:00pm ET: In a meeting with New York Times reporters, President-elect Donald Trump said he would not take the investigations of the Clintons off the table. 

Two reporters tweeted from inside the meeting, as Trump also expressed the view that Clinton "suffered greatly" and that it would be "very, very divisive for the country" to prosecute the Clintons.

he may or may not be,  I think he is playing possum.
we will not know till after he is sworn in


----------



## frodo

KULTULZ said:


> That is very considerate of you...



your welcome,  kinda guy i am,

kind, considerate, understanding and always right. :rofl:


----------



## KULTULZ

He has no authority to (NOBAMA did as he has a bigger package).

Only Congress and the DOJ have the authority, and one is inept and a dog and pony show and the other is crooked(well, Congress is crooked also). She will walk and now is trying to bribe electoral voters to switch their vote.

She is not out of the game by any means. His statement(s) may be a way of appeasing her.

From where do you draw your news and current events?


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> i read your   article, isolated incidences , I did not see the word RIOT
> 
> or THOUSANDS in property damage
> 
> ''Hundreds of incidents of abuse or intimidation apparently motivated by racial hatred have been reported since the November 4 election, though most have not involved violence, said the Southern Poverty Law Center.''
> 
> 
> I believe an educated person can clearly see the difference
> 
> when you run out of straws to grasp,  I'll sell you a bale of hay


Pay attention; Chris compared rioting to sitting on the computer complaining.

Do we need to talk about 800+ acts of hate this time.:down:


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> Pay attention; Chris compared rioting to sitting on the computer complaining.
> 
> Do we need to talk about 800+ acts of hate this time.:down:



You mean like black lives matter, which is a political construct of holder and bama, for the express purpose of inciting riots and giving the DOJ reason to sanction law enforcement.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> You mean like black lives matter, which is a political construct of holder and bama, for the express purpose of inciting riots and giving the DOJ reason to sanction law enforcement.



So the lame stream media should not report that black people are being killed in the streets by police for no apparent reason and the DOJ should not look into it.

Careful now your stupid is showing.


----------



## slownsteady

havasu said:


> I believe Trump not prosecuting Killary is sending the wrong message to other crooked politicians.


He would have to arrest himself also ....and probably twenty other presidents, dead and alive.


----------



## nealtw

Right now a group wants Hillary to call for a recount in three states, she has until Friday, we will see what she does with that.

Can anyone argue that Trump has spent his whole life trying to do one thing. Make Money. And he is good at it.

He has always been good at self promotion and getting what he wants.

He has said and done what ever to tap into the fears that so many people have.

And now we should believe he is so stupid that he doesn't understand why the way out right are claiming he is one of them. Really

*Follow the money*


----------



## oldognewtrick

nealtw said:


> So the lame stream media should not report that black people are being killed in the streets by police for no apparent reason and the DOJ should not look into it.
> 
> Careful now your stupid is showing.



How many citizens of any color have been killed for no reason by law enforcement? Fact is, there are more whites and Hispanics shot by police than blacks. Why do we never hear about that?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/in...f-reckoning-police-fatally-shoot-nearly-1000/


----------



## nealtw

oldognewtrick said:


> How many citizens of any color have been killed for no reason by law enforcement? Fact is, there are more whites and Hispanics shot by police than blacks. Why do we never hear about that?



% of population 15% black 30% of the deaths


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> So the lame stream media should not report that black people are being killed in the streets by police for no apparent reason and the DOJ should not look into it.
> 
> Careful now your stupid is showing.



no apparent reason ?  pulling a gun on LEO is no apparent reason ?

not dropping your gun when given a lawful order to do so is no apparent reason ?

Instead of bringing up the handfull of cases where a LEO has shot a black.

how about bringing up black on black shootings in  large cities like Chicago.

where more blacks are killed in one month by blacks than the leo kills in a years time.

where is the outrage about inner city violence ?

where is BLM  when it is black on black ?


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> % of population 15% black 30% of the deaths



if they did not commit 90% of the crime they would not be getting shot


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> no apparent reason ?  pulling a gun on LEO is no apparent reason ?
> 
> not dropping your gun when given a lawful order to do so is no apparent reason ?
> 
> Instead of bringing up the handfull of cases where a LEO has shot a black.
> 
> how about bringing up black on black shootings in  large cities like Chicago.
> 
> where more blacks are killed in one month by blacks than the leo kills in a years time.
> 
> where is the outrage about inner city violence ?
> 
> where is BLM  when it is black on black ?



no apparent reason ? would not include a lot of good reasons.

how about bringing up black on black shootings in  large cities like Chicago.

I believe it was you complaining about people changing the subject.


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> if they did not commit 90% of the crime they would not be getting shot



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-farbota/black-crime-rates-your-st_b_8078586.html


----------



## oldognewtrick

I'm sick and tired of both sides creating racial divide. If we are citizens, we are Americans. Not black American, or white Americans, or African Americans, we are people of the same country. Period. Unity will not occur until both sides put the labels away and start a healing process. The last few years have taken a turn for the worse. Stop it already and realize we inhabit this planet together.


----------



## nealtw

oldognewtrick said:


> I'm sick and tired of both sides creating racial divide. If we are citizens, we are Americans. Not black American, or white Americans, or African Americans, we are people of the same country. Period. Unity will not occur until both sides put the labels away and start a healing process. The last few years have taken a turn for the worse. Stop it already and realize we inhabit this planet together.



Won't happen as long as people fight for certain rights and want to remove rights for others. Any good citizen would be fighting for equal rights for all. 

You just have to figure out where you stand and who you would stand up for.

Any one here can make a declaration any time they want to.

There are bad people that should be restricted and have rights removed for a time or for life but even they should have fairness in how that is determined.


----------



## KULTULZ

nealtw said:


> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-farbota/black-crime-rates-your-st_b_8078586.html



Do you think this _news_ source is slightly biased?

The *fact* of the matter is that blacks commit more crime in relation to their percentage of the population, hence the number of prisoners in the prison system.

The ghettos are free-fire zones and require heavy policing. How would you like to be an LEO having to deal with this lunacy for a whole career? Have you ever been in a ghetto/barrio? I have, all across the country. You have to understand the argument before you can respond.

Simply put, they cannot and will not assimilate.


----------



## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> Do you think this _news_ source is slightly biased?
> 
> The *fact* of thee matter is that blacks commit more crime in relation to their percentage of the population, hence the number of prisoners in the prison system.
> 
> The ghettos are free-fire zones and require heavy policing. How would you like to be an LEO having to deal with this lunacy for a whole career? Have you ever been in a ghetto/barrio? I have, all across the country. You have to understand the argument before you can respond.
> 
> Simply put, they cannot and will not assimilate.



You are allowed to go prove it right or wrong, they are just stats.
How would you know how it would be to live in a district that had a red line drawn around it. With second rate schools and what it would take to work your way out of that. 
You don't have a clue because you won't spend any time trying to understand the underlying problems. It is just easier to group them all together  and call them names.

If you have ever recited your pledge to the flag, you are a hypocrite. It is as simple as that.

 &#8220;I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, _*with liberty and justice for all*_.&#8221;
*hypocrite*
noun
1.
a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2.
a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, especially one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.


----------



## KULTULZ

> According to Riley (Wall Street Journal), "*Blacks* commit violent crimes at 7 to 10 times the *rate* that whites do." ... In 2013, the *FBI* has *black*  criminals carrying out 38 per cent of murders, compared to 31.1 per  cent for whites. The offender's race was unknown in 29.1 per cent of  cases. - Jul 13, 2016


-*7 Statistics You Need To Know About Black-On-Black Crime*-

I don't know that I would now believe I would trust any government statistic, especially the FBI after this administration, but you have to start somewhere.

Neal, you live in Western Canada where violent crime is most likely pretty low. Maybe a few drug problems, DUI and sexual molestation of caribou. You have to see and live what we have here to comment on it.

Canada was not an open society (immigration) as was the US. All types were brought in for cheap labor/populace and no, not all assimilated. This includes the newest round of immigrants today.

All of this *BLACK LIVES MATTER* business was to generate hate among the populace for the upcoming elections. It will dissipate like a fart in a windstorm now and all will return to somewhat normal.


----------



## KULTULZ

nealtw said:


> How would you know how it would be to live in a district that had a red line drawn around it. With second rate schools and what it would take to work your way out of that.
> 
> You don't have a clue because you won't spend any time trying to understand the underlying problems. It is just easier to group them all together  and call them names.



I fully understand and appreciate what a ghetto is, I drove OTR for twenty years 48 states and Canada and was in all of the shiat holes. This is the way they decide to live. Why is it others can make it out but they cannot?

Do you have any idea of how much tax money has been spent to try and improve the lives of minorities? Do you know if a black and I stand in an employment line that he will most be likely hired over me dis-respective of qualifications?

Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining Neal. Been there, done that and have the t-shirt to prove it. You need to see and experience it, not draw your conclusions from a socialist rag.


----------



## nealtw

You are sure Riley did his homework. Where else would you get stats? 
Obviously you know s--- about Canada, how it became multicultural and how every political party will fight to keep it that way.

We mostly vote for what we think will work best for the country, big business, or help for main street or somewhere in between.
Our left  party has never held Fed. government. And Lib party is not on the left, they are in the middle and in BC the Conservatives took over the Lib party so they are right.( big business) 
So prejudiced is not a right left issue like you guys have.
We know why the Dems lost the south in the sixties and that is more sad than anything else.


----------



## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> I fully understand and appreciate what a ghetto is, I drove OTR for twenty years 48 states and Canada and was in all of the shiat holes. This is the way they decide to live. Why is it others can make it out but they cannot?
> 
> Do you have any idea of how much tax money has been spent to try and improve the lives of minorities? Do you know if a black and I stand in an employment line that he will most be likely hired over me dis-respective of qualifications?
> 
> Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining Neal. Been there, done that and have the t-shirt to prove it. You need to see and experience it, not draw your conclusions from a socialist rag.



So the fix is by the all wise KULTULZ:
If you are not part of the solution you are the problem.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> You are allowed to go prove it right or wrong, they are just stats.
> How would you know how it would be to live in a district that had a red line drawn around it. With second rate schools and what it would take to work your way out of that.
> You don't have a clue because you won't spend any time trying to understand the underlying problems. It is just easier to group them all together  and call them names.
> 
> If you have ever recited your pledge to the flag, you are a hypocrite. It is as simple as that.
> 
> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, _*with liberty and justice for all*_.
> *hypocrite*
> noun
> 1.
> a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
> 2.
> a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, especially one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.






a red line on a map is not a fence , they are free to leave and seek employment anywhere they wish to go.
do not EVEN try to tell me they can not leave,
I have headed out with nothing but a back pack looking for work. it can be done. IF YOU WANT TO   That is the problem, They do not want to help them selves.
The government, me or anyone else is not stopping them from lifting them selves up.
your whole argument is bull****
hey need to take responsibility for there own selves and actions.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> *hypocrite*
> noun
> 1.
> a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
> 2.
> a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, especially one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.



there is nothing hypocritical about expecting a healthy man or woman to lift them selves up.
  a lazy man will not work if he is fed and housed, he has no reason to.


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> a red line on a map is not a fence , they are free to leave and seek employment anywhere they wish to go.
> do not EVEN try to tell me they can not leave,
> I have headed out with nothing but a back pack looking for work. it can be done. IF YOU WANT TO   That is the problem, They do not want to help them selves.
> The government, me or anyone else is not stopping them from lifting them selves up.
> your whole argument is bull****
> hey need to take responsibility for there own selves and actions.



You guys don't need me to keep this hate fest going.


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> So the lame stream media should not report that black people are being killed in the streets by police for no apparent reason and the DOJ should not look into it.
> 
> Careful now your stupid is showing.



Absolutely not, however their ineptitude is constantly on display, as is their bias, and it started with the professor and the cop, whom to his credit didn't back down at the "beer summit".

Then there's travon martin and the "white mexican" and " if I had a son he would look like travon", false, false, false.

Then there is chicago "the murder capitol of the U.S." Where are the front page of the NY Times Story for the weekly death toll from black-on-black murders in the bastion of democratically controlled municipalities?

There won't be any, because it's bamas home town and his chief advisor, valarie jarrit, ran a roach, rat and dope dealer infest public housing project until it was vacated and demolished after two years.

There is no level of depravity that is beneath a dismalcrat's dignity.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> Absolutely not, however their ineptitude is constantly on display, as is their bias, and it started with the professor and the cop, whom to his credit didn't back down at the "beer summit".
> 
> Then there's travon martin and the "white mexican" and " if I had a son he would look like travon", false, false, false.
> 
> Then there is chicago "the murder capitol of the U.S." Where are the front page of the NY Times Story for the weekly death toll from black-on-black murders in the bastion of democratically controlled municipalities?
> 
> There won't be any, because it's bamas home town and his chief advisor, valarie jarrit, ran a roach, rat and dope dealer infest public housing project until it was vacated and demolished after two years.
> 
> There is no level of depravity that is beneath a dismalcrat's dignity.



So the fix is by the all wise Snoonyb


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> So the fix is by the all wise Snoonyb



well it damn sure aint  Neal


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> well it damn sure aint  Neal



So the fix is by the all wise frodo


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> So the fix is by the all wise Snoonyb



Get the feds off the the back of the police and let them do their job.

All a consent decree is, is someplace for the DOJ to land an otherwise unemployable, bring your own vaseline and sand to a beach party, liberal namby-pamby law student.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> So the fix is by the all wise frodo



listen to the old dawg,  and shadup


----------



## KULTULZ

nealtw said:


> So the fix is by the all wise KULTULZ:
> 
> If you are not part of the solution you are the problem.



There is no fix. If they haven't solved their so-called problems since being freed, then they never will.

The way a person lives is by choice.


----------



## slownsteady

Okay. so tell me who the hell "THEY" is.


----------



## KULTULZ

slownsteady said:


> Okay. so tell me who the hell "THEY" is.



They, in this instance, refers generally to any ethnicity or group of people that are either incapable or unwilling to better themselves. In that particular post, it is referring to the majority of blacks.

Do you find it strange that the people that came here (from Europe) were able to begin a free society and escape the tyranny of the Queen and Church of England?

And yet half the world still lives in filth, squalor and ignorance? 

Maybe the Grace of GOD? GOD only helps those that help themselves.

Maybe you have a small case of White Guilt?


----------



## buffalo

nealtw said:


> So the fix is by the all wise Snoonyb



I think the solution is end affirmative action . Make EVERYONE EQUAL.

 I've read that nys is the biggest welfare state , I'm not 100% sure if that's true , but it's bad here. New York post

If people have no incentive to work , most are not going to . What fustrates people is that to support this system , the working class are taxed to support it . The sad part is when I'm done with my house , which is by no means any kind of high end living , I may not be able to afford to live here because of my taxes . But I'm going to have to fight that battle when the day comes , I'm not the type to live off others .


----------



## KULTULZ

There are political reasons they are  kept being suppressed and that is not going to change.

And at this late date, how could you _clean-up_ the inner cities? No viable industry is going to build near them because of the crime rates and cost of insurance. The only industry and retail you will most likely see there will be government (out of your pocket) subsidized.

Why would a man work @ minimum wage when there is money to be easily made in drugs and pimping?



> Plus, going to work means added costs such as paying for child care, transportation and clothing.Not  to mention that, even if its not a money-loser, a person moving from  welfare to work will see some form of loss  namely, less time for  leisure as opposed to work.


In short, less time for street crime.


----------



## slownsteady

KULTULZ said:


> They, in this instance, refers generally to any ethnicity or group of people that are either incapable or unwilling to better themselves. In that particular post, it is referring to the majority of blacks.
> 
> Do you find it strange that the people that came here (from Europe) were able to begin a free society and escape the tyranny of the Queen and Church of England?
> 
> And yet half the world still lives in filth, squalor and ignorance?
> 
> Maybe the Grace of GOD? GOD only helps those that help themselves.
> 
> Maybe you have a small case of White Guilt?


Just wanted it "on the record".


----------



## KULTULZ

slownsteady said:


> Just wanted it "on the record".



It was on the record. The subject being discussed was blacks.

When will the label *RACIST* be introduced and thrown around...


----------



## slownsteady

It seems to me that you (plural) are painting with such a wide brush that you will find that you are discriminating against many people that don't deserve such treatment. In the same breath that you call these people lazy and no good, you also curse at Obama and other black families, who are nothing like a pimps or drug dealers. You put on the blinders to justify your opinions and observations of some.
Are you saying that there is no white trash?

BTW, the subject being discussed was Trump.


----------



## KULTULZ

nealtw said:


> You are sure Riley did his homework. Where else would you get stats?
> 
> Obviously you know s--- about Canada, how it became multicultural and how every political party will fight to keep it that way.



Then if your socialist government has all of the answers, why don't you open your borders to them?



> We know why the Dems lost the south in the sixties and that is more sad than anything else.


...

What is it you are trying to say?


----------



## KULTULZ

slownsteady said:


> It seems to me that you (plural) are painting with such a wide brush that you will find that you are discriminating against many people that don't deserve such treatment. In the same breath that you call these people lazy and no good,







you also curse at Obama and other black families, who are nothing like a pimps or drug dealers. You put on the blinders to justify your opinions and observations of some.
Are you saying that there is no white trash?

BTW, the subject being discussed was Trump.[/QUOTE]


----------



## KULTULZ

slownsteady said:


> It seems to me that you (plural)



... plural???



> ...are painting with such a wide brush that you will find that you are discriminating against many people that don't deserve such treatment. In the same breath that you call these people lazy and no good, you also curse at Obama and other black families, who are nothing like a pimps or drug dealers.


Can you tell me one thing OBAMA has done to help the average black?

Have you ever read what OBAMA was (is) and where he came from?



> You put on the blinders to justify your opinions and observations of some.


That is in your opinion of course.



> Are you saying that there is no white trash?


There is plenty of what you term as White Trash. That is why no one can call me a racist as I am a equal opportunity hater.



> BTW, the subject being discussed was Trump.


The original conversation was Trump. Follow the threads.


----------



## Snoonyb

KULTULZ said:


> Do you find it strange that the people that came here (from Europe) were able to begin a free society and escape the tyranny of the Queen and Church of England?



In the writings of John Smith and William Bradford you can find references to "common course" which is a form of agurian communism, in which the hunter gatherers and the farmers all contributed to the community "larder" and all, including those who did not contribute, could draw from.

That experiment last about 1yr, until John Smith declared, "He who does not work, does not eat" and William Bradford divided the land equally among the remaining settlers.

So, all you proponents of socialism, we've been there, done that, and know it's a failed venture.

As for the "welfare queens" being predominantly black, there are as many or more whites and hispanics in that same category, however, before the government do-gooders stepped in, all the assistance was handled in the community, where you had to face your neighbor for a handout.

But why not asians?

Because of pride and their emphasis on education, plain and simple.


----------



## nealtw

So you inner city experts, enlighten me. There are no business, no landlords, no contractors, no teachers, lawyers, doctors, nurses, fast food joints?


----------



## Snoonyb

What, thats been stated, would lead you to believe the commerce has been suspended?


----------



## nealtw

buffalo said:


> I think the solution is end affirmative action . Make EVERYONE EQUAL.
> 
> I've read that nys is the biggest welfare state , I'm not 100% sure if that's true , but it's bad here. New York post
> 
> If people have no incentive to work , most are not going to . What fustrates people is that to support this system , the working class are taxed to support it . The sad part is when I'm done with my house , which is by no means any kind of high end living , I may not be able to afford to live here because of my taxes . But I'm going to have to fight that battle when the day comes , I'm not the type to live off others .



Okay. let's say all that is true and it sounds like it is.
Some here are not saying that much, we can't write off a population like an old car. It takes some effort to look into problems and talk about problems from every point of view.

That article talks about a single woman with to kids. I don't think they talk about her enough. How should we look at her.

1. Ex hooker with a drug habit, waiting for welfare Wednesday
2. Stays home to provide solid home for her kids with hope for their future.
3. Has a disability that prevents her from working.
4. Stays home to care for a sick or disabled child
 5--20. All the other things I can't think of right now.

And that would be only one classification, I am sure there are many. 
Single men, single women, grandparents, and the frauds.

But that says nothing about the people who are working two jobs or running a family business who are in general working to making their community better and safe.

It is fine to say cut off welfare and they will get a job. 

Areas that have an over sized population of welfare collectors rely on that money coming into the local businesses, dry that up and there will be less jobs.


----------



## KULTULZ

Welfare (in the hood) will never be cut. Rioting and burning will result. And yes, there are more whites on assistance as there are more whites, simple as that. As for Hispanics, it is part of the Welcome Wagon hosted by Uncle Sugar.

It is also a political control. As long as they are taken care of, they will vote Democratic. You have a populace that has never seen or understands capitalism or true freedom for that matter. They (youths) disdain education as it is considered the White Man's Learning. Without an education or trade, you are simply not going to make it (especially with the illegal workers situation). Street crime is the last resort of their existence.

The stores (those that have not been burnt out or robbed continuously) are usually run by Asians/mid-Easterners and the blacks hate them for that. Larger stores that have been burnt out seldom return. Then they complain they have nowhere to shop (WDC - 1968 riots).

How many here have actually walked (not driven through) a inner city? Take a day off and stand on a street corner and you just may have an awakening.

Oh, BTW. Most trades will not go into WDC or PG CTY (MD) due to crime.

It is a fact gentlemen.


----------



## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> Welfare (in the hood) will never be cut. Rioting and burning will result. And yes, there are more whites on assistance as there are more whites, simple as that. As for Hispanics, it is part of the Welcome Wagon hosted by Uncle Sugar.
> 
> It is also a political control. As long as they are taken care of, they will vote Democratic. You have a populace that has never seen or understands capitalism or true freedom for that matter. They (youths) disdain education as it is considered the White Man's Learning. Without an education or trade, you are simply not going to make it (especially with the illegal workers situation). Street crime is the last resort of their existence.
> 
> The stores (those that have not been burnt out or robbed continuously) are usually run by Asians/mid-Easterners and the blacks hate them for that. Larger stores that have been burnt out seldom return. Then they complain they have nowhere to shop (WDC - 1968 riots).
> 
> How many here have actually walked (not driven through) a inner city? Take a day off and stand on a street corner and you just may have an awakening.
> 
> Oh, BTW. Most trades will not go into WDC or PG CTY (MD) due to crime.
> 
> It is a fact gentlemen.



So if as you say the Dems. just do things to make the situation carry on.

There is room for the other party to come up with real ideas that would change the system.

There are people that work their way out of trailer parks and inner cities, do we understand how that happened and could it be spread to more people.

I think these are people that have hopes dreams and drive that help them at least try. There must be I am sure many more with some or most of those values that have failed and maybe failed more that once. Do we treat them all as bad people.

Mr Trump went to communities close to black inner cities and spoke about what he would do for inner cities. He may have been sincere ( Hard to tell)  but just consider for a moment, if it sounded good for you it might have scared the piss out of the people in the inner city.

Mr Trump made a habit of saying different things depending on the crowd he was talking to. So we all have to wait and see what he wants to do and then can he do it. Like all the people before him he is still subject to congress and courts.

But you can be sure, as long as you are hopeful of what you would like to see, there are people that are living in fear of what might be coming and fear takes away from hopes, dreams and redirects efforts.


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## Snoonyb

"Areas that have an over sized population of welfare collectors rely on that money coming into the local businesses, dry that up and there will be less jobs."

Slick willy obtained a 2nd term by welfare reform and the premise that the welfare check will not be replaced by income, is false.

The practice of exchanging food stamps for cash and the drugs is the source of the income, not commerce.


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## havasu

nealtw said:


> But you can be sure, as long as you are hopeful of what you would like to see, there are people that are living in fear of what might be coming and fear takes away from hopes, dreams and redirects efforts.



Fear is one thing that only the person fearing can correct, but in all honesty, the rest of us have been living the reality for the last 8 years.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> "Areas that have an over sized population of welfare collectors rely on that money coming into the local businesses, dry that up and there will be less jobs."
> 
> Slick willy obtained a 2nd term by welfare reform and the premise that the welfare check will not be replaced by income, is false.
> 
> The practice of exchanging food stamps for cash and the drugs is the source of the income, not commerce.



So, is it that you can't get off that one thought to spend any time thinking about what might be done to actually change the situation?


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## buffalo

nealtw said:


> Okay. let's say all that is true and it sounds like it is.
> Some here are not saying that much, we can't write off a population like an old car. It takes some effort to look into problems and talk about problems from every point of view.
> 
> That article talks about a single woman with to kids. I don't think they talk about her enough. How should we look at her.
> 
> 1. Ex hooker with a drug habit, waiting for welfare Wednesday
> 2. Stays home to provide solid home for her kids with hope for their future.
> 3. Has a disability that prevents her from working.
> 4. Stays home to care for a sick or disabled child
> 5--20. All the other things I can't think of right now.
> 
> And that would be only one classification, I am sure there are many.
> Single men, single women, grandparents, and the frauds.
> 
> But that says nothing about the people who are working two jobs or running a family business who are in general working to making their community better and safe.
> 
> It is fine to say cut off welfare and they will get a job.
> 
> Areas that have an over sized population of welfare collectors rely on that money coming into the local businesses, dry that up and there will be less jobs.




I'm white,  half of my family is black . We all work and provide for our family's . I myself am not labeling the problem on a specific race . You can run the numbers and statistics and sure your going to come up with an argument on the "black community " . The fact of the matter is , we are all different in different ways as far as race in concerned . Not better , not worse , different . Now I have my own thoughts on that but I won't go into it now . 

   If we want to stop sterotyping,  then let's stop . Every man is responsible for HIMSELF . If your black , you don't represent ALL blacks . Insert any other race into that sentence . People need to represent THEMSELVES . 

As for welfare . I say drug test every recipent . You want free , your not getting high . 

If your in that situation , additional children is a reduction of benefits , not an increase.

If you need assistance,  you need to be actively pursuing a job . After an alloted amount of time with no results , you are required to give a certain amount of time to cummunity service to keep receiving benefits . 

I can go on but you get the idea .

Imo alot of things need improvement . But tbh , I live in the best country in the world . My kids are growing up in a safe environment,  ignorant to the real world , I have food to feed us , I don't have to worry about bombs going off on top of us. My wife isn't going to be gang raped on a subway , she is not going to have her beasts cut off , my son's are not being forced I to slavery , we're not bathing in a disease infested river , cartels are not taking my 5 yr old and bashing his head off rocks to intimidate someone he dosn't eveen know ,  the list goes on and on and one and on . Just loom into it......90% of the worlds atrocities don't even make the news ........for reasons....

We have the opportunity to do anything we wish with our lives . There are alot of people who do t have this luxury.  And for this I'm grateful , best country in the world.  

BUT , all this can change ! I'm glad the election went the way it did .


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## slownsteady

You said it better than i could have.


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## nealtw

buffalo said:


> I'm white,  half of my family is black . We all work and provide for our family's . I myself am not labeling the problem on a specific race . You can run the numbers and statistics and sure your going to come up with an argument on the "black community " . The fact of the matter is , we are all different in different ways as far as race in concerned . Not better , not worse , different . Now I have my own thoughts on that but I won't go into it now .
> 
> If we want to stop sterotyping,  then let's stop . Every man is responsible for HIMSELF . If your black , you don't represent ALL blacks . Insert any other race into that sentence . People need to represent THEMSELVES .
> 
> As for welfare . I say drug test every recipent . You want free , your not getting high .
> 
> If your in that situation , additional children is a reduction of benefits , not an increase.
> 
> If you need assistance,  you need to be actively pursuing a job . After an alloted amount of time with no results , you are required to give a certain amount of time to cummunity service to keep receiving benefits .
> 
> I can go on but you get the idea .
> 
> Imo alot of things need improvement . But tbh , I live in the best country in the world . My kids are growing up in a safe environment,  ignorant to the real world , I have food to feed us , I don't have to worry about bombs going off on top of us. My wife isn't going to be gang raped on a subway , she is not going to have her beasts cut off , my son's are not being forced I to slavery , we're not bathing in a disease infested river , cartels are not taking my 5 yr old and bashing his head off rocks to intimidate someone he dosn't eveen know ,  the list goes on and on and one and on . Just loom into it......90% of the worlds atrocities don't even make the news ........for reasons....
> 
> We have the opportunity to do anything we wish with our lives . There are alot of people who do t have this luxury.  And for this I'm grateful , best country in the world.
> 
> BUT , all this can change ! I'm glad the election went the way it did .



Whether you and I agree or not, is not important to me, I am happy just for the fact you take some time to think about an answer and see that there are multitudes of problems that have to have solutions all there own.

Drug problems are not just a problem for poor hood but testing might be an answer, depending how they are being used.

If they are being used to find people that need different resources of help.
If they are used the increase the hate, then not so good.

And worse yet is somebody getting rich for doing the test on your dime,


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## buffalo

nealtw said:


> Whether you and I agree or not, is not important to me, I am happy just for the fact you take some time to think about an answer and see that there are multitudes of problems that have to have solutions all there own.
> 
> Drug problems are not just a problem for poor hood but testing might be an answer, depending how they are being used.
> 
> If they are being used to find people that need different resources of help.
> If they are used the increase the hate, then not so good.
> 
> And worse yet is somebody getting rich for doing the test on your dime,



I think we totally agree , maybe not on the political response to fix the problems , but on the end result YES. 

I also think steps need to be taken to help people down on thier luck . Welfare is needed . But it is being abused and steps need to be taken to prevent that . The few opinions I made on how to curve that , I don't belive anybody in need of assistance who truly needs it should object to . Assistance should be a method of help with the intent to raise that person up and get them on thier feet.....not live off it thier entire lives.

And I Also agree with you , someone will be getting rich off the tests or some other loop hOle . It's a never ending battle to fight fraud , corruption and abuse . 

   It's kinda d of like the profits from work related drug testing . Most hard drugs are out of your body in days , but marijuana it's the primary target (staying in your system for upto a month) We all know by now it's basically harmless ( obviously not during work hours) , but the testing itself is big money lining pockets .


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## Snoonyb

Actually, it's your refusal to admit that welfare is a political construct to insure dependency, at the expense of dignity, self reliance and intestinal fortitude.

In other words, get off the front porch and get a job, or two, or three.


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## havasu

Damn Buffalo,  you just earned the most respect deserved for your above post!


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## nealtw

buffalo said:


> I think we totally agree , maybe not on the political response to fix the problems , but on the end result YES.
> 
> I also think steps need to be taken to help people down on thier luck . Welfare is needed . But it is being abused and steps need to be taken to prevent that . The few opinions I made on how to curve that , I don't belive anybody in need of assistance who truly needs it should object to . Assistance should be a method of help with the intent to raise that person up and get them on thier feet.....not live off it thier entire lives.
> 
> And I Also agree with you , someone will be getting rich off the tests or some other loop hOle . It's a never ending battle to fight fraud , corruption and abuse .
> 
> It's kinda d of like the profits from work related drug testing . Most hard drugs are out of your body in days , but marijuana it's the primary target (staying in your system for upto a month) We all know by now it's basically harmless ( obviously not during work hours) , but the testing itself is big money lining pockets .



About 30 years ago I watched some news program about some border town where they had an open gate at the border. No border guards just a 4 ft opening in a fence, with in walking distance of a privately operated mailbox center. I think the story went something like this. People with green cards came across to work on farms and were untitled to receive UI if they had an address in the country or state, not sure which. As many might be using the same mail box, some where picking up several checks for friends and family.

Some were picking up welfare checks  and the reporter asked about that and was told that when the UI checks were running to the end of there term some one from welfare met them at the gate and offered to help out with the paperwork. The reporter dug into the welfare system at the time it seemed that the agents had a base salary but as there work load increased they received more money. At some limit there was a need for more agents and you guessed it the more agents working the more the supervisor would make.

That same system was true for schools, more students, more money all around.

The only guy complaining was the farmer. He had favorite people he wanted to come and work but said, those people came to work to feed their families back home. But for that family it was better to keep that person at home and send someone else.

So if all that was true, it is not hard to see some people were simply trained to use and abuse a system. 

At the time I was out of work and looked into picking apples in Washington state, but they had no shortage of people coming in to do the work ( from Mexico )


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