# How can the contractor charge this lower price?



## jmr106 (Jan 10, 2016)

Our roof is old and needs to be replaced. I called a contractor who previously patched it for us a few years ago, because I remembered that  he did an amazing and quick job.

He quoted $2,700 cash or check (they don't take credit, which I wouldn't use, anyway) for 13 squares of shingles (25 year), tar paper/barrier, putting them on, plywood for some bad wood that will likley need to be changed here and there (a few leaks where the shingles have pushed up due to age) and a dumpster to be brought out for the roofing. He has a crew of people, because he mentioned that he'd have to pay them a little extra to change out the bad wood and factored that into the price. He buys from a supplier called GAF and some other similarly large company that I can't remember that begins with a C. He said that the prices are lower when he buys that way and that he doesn't buy from places like Home Depot, Lowes, etc.

He owns his own construction company that is in his name and he has apparently been doing it since the 80's. He's in the Yellow Pages. The business address is his residential house address. He has apparently been in business since the 80's as a construction contractor and has done all sorts of stuff. He's insured for a million dollars. His projects have been huge businesses (retail stores, churches, etc.) and also residential projects ranging from big to small. Roofing, decks, gutters, and pretty much whatever. He keeps a running social media page with regular updates and photos of jobs that he has done and is working on. It looks extremely professional, and he even shows what bad companies did wrong when he finds stuff.

How can he charge so much less? He said he would give me paperwork and everything, so it isn't one of those fly-by-night deals. He even brought me samples of the shingles (3-tab) and gave me two companies to choose from. They're very high quality, thick 25 year shingles. I did check, out of curiosity...Home Depot carries them, but it is $1,000 for the amount that would be needed. Of course, he doesn't buy from them. But assuming that general price, after supplies and such, they have probably $1,500 to divide for like 5 people. Am I over-estimating how much roofers get paid in general? I was talking to some coworkers who told me that their roof was like $5,000 and $7,000, so $2,700 seems like an interesting price. I think the last time it was roofed, it was at least a couple of thousand more than what was quoted this time. Yet I have no reason to believe he is a scammer. My last experience with him was great. He's a very down to earth guy. I'm  just curious how he makes that work at such a low price. Apparently his motto is that he tries to make sure that people know that every contractor isn't bad.


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 10, 2016)

If you are not comfortable, get another estimate or 2. Ask him if he's using actual starter shingles. drip edge, what type of exhaust vent, tell him you want the shingles stair cased and not installed on a "bar line". If you have valleys, walls or low slopes, is he putting ice and water shield down? The company with a C is probably CertainTeed.


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## jeffmattero76 (Jan 10, 2016)

I have rental properties and new roofing usually costs around $200 per square (a square is 100 square feet). Therefore i think your quote is in line


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## Snoonyb (Jan 10, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> How can he charge so much less?



He obviously runs a tight ship, IE., if you can't cut it, you can't stay.

If you watch the operation you'll likely see only "A--holes and elbows".


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## havasu (Jan 10, 2016)

I received 4 bids on roof replacement at this house. The bids were $17k, $23k, $24k, and $25k. The low bid was a local guy and did 3 of my 4 neighbors, and received high marks from two separate friends. The low bid got the job and I couldn't be happier. And yes, Mr. Low Bid ran a real tight ship and did not advertize, had no fancy office, did not drive fancy cars, and worked only on word of mouth.


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## bud16415 (Jan 10, 2016)

I have told this story before but will again for new members. I had an 1880 house and called the 4 local roofers I found and set up times for them to come. The first 3 showed up right on time and had new shiny trucks with graphics on the side dressed nice clip board and calculator. Each one measured the base of the house did a little math and gave me a quote. All pro like and all within 10%. The forth guy shows up after dark 3 hours late in a beat up real work truck ladder racks and ladders. Says he was sorry for being late was finishing up a job. He gets out and after saying hi gets a 30&#8217; wooden extension lader off by himself and he looked to be about 60 yr old. Asked if I could help and he said no he had it. Walked the ladder up to the house and up he went no pad and pen or calculator just a flashlight. He was up there for a long time walking around and looking. He finally came down stored the ladder and said get any other quotes. I said yep and he said let me guess X number of squares and about this X price. I said yep right on. He said well you have other problems and those guys will find them and up the price after they rip the roof off. I said ok. He said the roof is rough cut planks with spaces from the wood shingles days. I said right I had been in the attic. He said venting is all wrong and you have several bad planks. He suggested going over the whole roof with half inch after fixing planks. He said the chimney needs repointed and the time to do it is with the new flashings. He said your gutters are shot and fascia is bad and really needs new rafter tails. Suggested aluminum over new work.  Drip edge ice guard etc etc. By this point we were in the kitchen and had half a pot of coffee down and he said if you want to know what I think of shingles I will bring in some samples. So he comes in with a arm load of sample boards and starts explaining flashings and differences in shingles. Also told me exactly what ones each of the other guys selected and what was good and bad about them and what he would recommend. Then he tells me his price for what the others quoted and what his extras will cost and that plywood was going up 50% next week and if I got back to him in the next couple days he would add extra to the bunk he was buying before the hike. When he added in all the extras he was about 50% higher than what the others quoted but a whole heck of a lot more work I thought. I told him he had the job and he said sleep on it he would write it up tomorrow and if I didn&#8217;t change my mind he would come over. He did want the money in advance for the plywood as it was going to be a month before he could start. 

I hired him and he did a great job. Didn&#8217;t have a dumpster he had an old dump truck. I had him do my moms roof my sisters roof I recommended him to a dozen people and he did their jobs and many years later I hired him again now his kid was running the jobs just the same way dad did and dad was pushing 90 and showed up every day to keep an eye on the kid. 

Doesn&#8217;t surprise me at all you have quotes all over the place. That&#8217;s not saying the low bidder is best just that he could be.


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## slownsteady (Jan 10, 2016)

No surprise that some contractors will low-ball and add $$ later as they find problems. Some guys can just nail it (pun intended) in the estimate. You can judge a lot by talking to the guy, maybe bring up suspicions that you may have about your roof and see how he responds. 
It's hard for anyone here to compare prices becuz your area has it's own economy and we don't know it.


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## nealtw (Jan 10, 2016)

Go follow him to another job sight, when he's done there go ask how those people like their job.


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## zannej (Jan 10, 2016)

Ask for references and talk to people who had jobs done by him over the past few years. Find out if their roofs are still holding up and if they are happy with the job. Some states have websites that list violations by licensed contractors and say what the violations were for. I was able to see a list of commercially licensed plumbers who got dinged for doing unlicensed residential work for more than x amount of $ as well as see septic service people who didn't drain tanks all the way and got fined. There might be something like that for roofers. Make sure that the guy is actually licensed for residential work; you should be able to find that out from the place that issues permits for roofing work. Make sure he's bonded and insured as well. Just because someone has a fancy website and advertises well doesn't mean the person has all their ducks in a row.

Also, listen to your gut. If you have a bad feeling about it, you might not want to go ahead with that contractor. Sleep on it before making a decision.

A roof is something you really don't want to have messed up because a bad roof job can cause a lot of damage. A friend of mine kept hiring the same hack to patch his roof and now the house is filled with mold and has been for sale since 2012.


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## jmr106 (Jan 12, 2016)

He's actually quite proud of his work. He used to have a website, but uses Facebook now. He updates constant photos of where they are working, how they did the job "right" vs how someone did it wrong before, etc. All of it looks pretty amazing.


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## nealtw (Jan 12, 2016)

Some companies want to get rich on everyjob they do and some people want every job. If he pays the employee by the sq or even by the hour the guy that dosn't keep his crew busy has to pay more to keep them but the guy that can keep them busy might be able to pay less. On new houses up here we see some outfits taking days and some outfits doing the same job in a day. Quality of work about the same with the same sized crew.


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## zannej (Jan 13, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> He's actually quite proud of his work. He used to have a website, but uses Facebook now. He updates constant photos of where they are working, how they did the job "right" vs how someone did it wrong before, etc. All of it looks pretty amazing.



I've seen sites where people brag about their work and are proud and it looks good to a novice, but then professionals look at it and say its not so great. Sometimes even amateurs can look at stuff and spot mistakes.

On Facebook, people can post stuff that isn't true or exaggerate how great they are.

It really would be a good idea to ask for references and talk to people who had jobs done by him. Also, see if there are any reviews on him with the Better Business Bureau and/or Yelp and stuff like that. Get some outside opinions.

Also, make sure that you get a contract with everything you expect written down to make sure he doesn't try to surprise you. You will want an itemized list of materials and costs as well as labor. That way you can make sure you got everything you paid for.


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## yawsee (Jan 13, 2016)

Get a third estimate
Get all three in writing
Do they all have insurance?

Once you have the everything on paper you can compare apples with apples. 13 squares can be done in a day. If he is paying the guys between $ 100 - $ 150 for a days work then it makes sense.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 13, 2016)

zannej said:


> I've seen sites where people brag about their work and are proud and it looks good to a novice, but then professionals look at it and say its not so great. Sometimes even amateurs can look at stuff and spot mistakes.



Because one professional is and has a practice that works in and for his business model, which is different that another's, in the same profession, does not make either of them wrong.

However displays the "critiques" ability to talk around his shoe.



zannej said:


> On Facebook, people can post stuff that isn't true or exaggerate how great they are.



Social media, a Forest Gump moment, "stupid is, as stupid does."



zannej said:


> It really would be a good idea to ask for references and talk to people who had jobs done by him.



Yep!



zannej said:


> Also, see if there are any reviews on him with the Better Business Bureau and/or Yelp and stuff like that. Get some outside opinions.



BBB is renowned as a pay for play and should never be used as a yardstick for anything other than a marginal business model.



zannej said:


> Also, make sure that you get a contract with everything you expect written down to make sure he doesn't try to surprise you.



And the paragraph in all responsible contractors contracts, precluding their responsibility for the unforeseen?



zannej said:


> You will want an itemized list of materials and costs as well as labor. That way you can make sure you got everything you paid for.



So, you want a time and material contract, and than have it renegotiated when something, "unforeseen," is found?

And willing to pay for the additional time?


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## jmr106 (Jan 14, 2016)

He did state that he would give an invoice ahead of the job, actually. If anything is found (he accounted for some plywood already in case some of the wood has issues due to what he saw on the roof) like rotten wood, I wouldn't have any problem paying extra to fix the problem. I know for a fact that he is insured for $1 million. Has officially owned his own construction business since 2005. 

I guess I was under the impression that roofers made more than that. He would also have at least two people with him and would be doing work himself, too. Apparently they would pull off the whole roof in one day or perhaps within 8 hours or so. Complete tear-off of one layer of shingles, new paper, fix bad wood, etc. I think he does mostly work by word of mouth, but being in the Yellow Pages helps a lot, I'd imagine. He remembers that I was a former customer.

Other roofing companies want a fortune. $4,000. $5,500. $7,000.


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## slownsteady (Jan 14, 2016)

Sounds like he's already got you convinced. You seem to be defending him, and since none of us have any experience with the guy, we'll take your word. Go ahead and hire the guy.


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## jmr106 (Jan 17, 2016)

Not too shabby. $2,650 for 13 squares of shingles. He ended up needing a little more and didn't charge for those. He brought a few extra squares just in case.

They tore down a single layer to the deck. He found about four different areas where the older shingles were starting to leak, so they changed out those boards, put down the underlayment, put metal in the roof valley, changed all of the pipe flashings/boots, sealed around the vents and put the shingles over. He came back over this morning to seal and paint a water heater vent on the roof to keep it from rusting.

I actually got photo text updates from him via his phone while he was on the roof supervising his team and working.

Seems to have done a good job. Any thoughts based on the few photos that I have? He sent more, but didn't want to just randomly post a bunch of photos.


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## slownsteady (Jan 18, 2016)

Looks good. Time will tell. Does he warrant his work?


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## jmr106 (Jan 18, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Looks good. Time will tell. Does he warrant his work?



Five year labor warranty included on the invoice. Supposed to be a 25 year warranty on the shingles, but he said the pipe boots and flashing typically need to be replaced after 10 years. Not that we'll be living here then, anyway.


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## zannej (Jan 18, 2016)

Glad you got it done and worked out for you!


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## havasu (Jan 18, 2016)

Looks like a good installation. How many nails did he put in each roofing piece?


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## Snoonyb (Jan 18, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Seems to have done a good job. Any thoughts based on the few photos that I have?



Yes and as a response to your alluding to your roofer's practice of pointing out the failings of others, which appears to be "sales schtick."



jmr106 said:


> Not too shabby. $2,650 for 13 squares of shingles. He ended up needing a little more and didn't charge for those. He brought a few extra squares just in case.



The "few extra" is in part because of his method of using shingles as starter, instead of starter roll. So when you view the edge shingle relief, you see a seam every 3', which you do not see with starter roll.

Besides which you always procure extra for cuts and waste, so I wouldn't get all jazzed up at that.



jmr106 said:


> They tore down a single layer to the deck. He found about four different areas where the older shingles were starting to leak, so they changed out those boards, put down the underlayment, put metal in the roof valley, changed all of the pipe flashings/boots, sealed around the vents and put the shingles over. He came back over this morning to seal and paint a water heater vent on the roof to keep it from rusting.



You see in the photo of the valley flashing that it is installed on top of the base sheet and face nailed.

Every nail penetration is a potential leak.

In my practice the valley flashing is 24" wide, has a center rib and is installed against the roof sheating and the base sheet laps onto the flashing.
There are no nails closer than 9" away from the center rib of the flashing.

I never use the "booted" flashings, because they are neopreme and will fail. I weave the flashings into the shingle application.

But then, I warranty my work for the duration of the owner I preformed the project for, remains as the occupant of the dwelling.


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 18, 2016)

In a "W" valley pan, if you fold a hem on both edges, use clips to secure it, you never have penetrations of the pan. The valley should have ice and water shield under it and the underlayment run over the edge of the pan. 

Starter shingles have the seal strips on the outside edge and this helps against wind lifting.


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## jmr106 (Jan 19, 2016)

havasu said:


> Looks like a good installation. How many nails did he put in each roofing piece?



Well, he had a couple of guys roofing with him. He watched them very carefully and specifically told them, "I want 4 nails in each one, you got me? Make sure that they are GOOD nails, too. 4 nails is code."  Then he sent me that photo later from the roof with a text that said "Nailed by code". He also told them to make sure that the shingles go over the edge 2" per code. He has known them and worked with them for years, but it is his construction and roofing company, so his reputation is on the line if they mess up. His best marketing is actually by word of mouth, even though he's in the Yellow Pages and such. So a job well done gets him recommended to others and keeps them all getting a paycheck.


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## jmr106 (Jan 19, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> But then, I warranty my work for the duration of the owner I preformed the project for, remains as the occupant of the dwelling.



Sounds like you'll eventually lose a lot of money when all of that catches up to you.


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## zannej (Jan 19, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Sounds like you'll eventually lose a lot of money when all of that catches up to you.


If he uses the right materials and does the job right then it is not likely to catch up with him. With good materials and good installation, it is not likely that there will be leaks or problems. The only issues might arise from damage from severe weather conditions or falling trees or something. Probably better than being taken to court for doing a shoddy job and having leaks.

Mind you, I don't know enough about roofing to be able to say whether or not your guy did a good job or not, but there's nothing wrong with someone warrantying their work if they stand by the warranty and do good work in the first place.

Fortunately, in your situation it really isn't an issue since it seems you intend to sell the house so you won't have to live there and deal with any problems should they arise. But I do think you made a good faith effort to get a good roofer and if you're satisfied with the job, that is what matters.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 19, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Sounds like you'll eventually lose a lot of money when all of that catches up to you.



Actually, I've been at it for more than 35yrs. and have yet to perform a warranty call back. No cheap and dirty shortcuts.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 19, 2016)

Just to be clear,YOU, referenced his proclivity to point out , in his interpretation and sales schtick, the failing of others.

In the end, it's your house and YOU have to live with it and if you sell the house FHA you can obligated for an additional year, and I'll bet  his warranty in not transferable.



jmr106 said:


> Well, he had a couple of guys roofing with him. He watched them very carefully and specifically told them, "I want 4 nails in each one, you got me? Make sure that they are GOOD nails, too. 4 nails is code."



More sales schtick and of course he provided the code section which by the way addresses required nail gauge and length so you could go to the applicable code adopted for you community and, "trust but verify?" 



jmr106 said:


> Then he sent me that photo later from the roof with a text that said "Nailed by code".





jmr106 said:


> He also told them to make sure that the shingles go over the edge 2" per code.



And the applicable code section and paragraph is..........?


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## jmr106 (Jan 19, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> More sales schtick and of course he provided the code section which by the way addresses required nail gauge and length so you could go to the applicable code adopted for you community and, "trust but verify?"
> 
> And the applicable code section and paragraph is..........?




Roofers in Atlanta must adhere to specific guidelines defined in the    Official Code of Georgia relating to insurance claims and work  performed   by residential roofing contractors. 


Georgia Drip Edge Code, Georgia H.B. 610 and Georgia H.B. 423. I am very sure that one of those $7,000 quotes from a large roofing company would _certainly_ not have that sales schtick. 

Plus, I don't think large commercial retail companies and million-dollar homes would be letting him roof their buildings if he didn't do a good job. I saw both of those among his pages. One condo complex hired his team for over 500 squares to transform their complex.


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## slownsteady (Jan 19, 2016)

Are "starter shingles" and "starter rolls" the same thing?


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## bud16415 (Jan 19, 2016)

We used to cut the tabs off the first row of shingles and that would leave the tar strip right at the bottom and no slots. Now I see guys putting a row on upside down to start. I think the starter shingle or starter roll sounds like the art form has improved over the last 50 years.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 19, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Roofers in Atlanta must adhere to specific guidelines defined in the    Official Code of Georgia relating to insurance claims and work  performed   by residential roofing contractors.
> 
> 
> Georgia Drip Edge Code, Georgia H.B. 610 and Georgia H.B. 423. I am very sure that one of those $7,000 quotes from a large roofing company would _certainly_ not have that sales schtick.
> ...



That's a cut-n-paste from a supplier.

So try the actual adopted code;GEORGIA STATE INTERNATIONAL RESIDENTIAL CODE, which is the bible all contractors must adhere too.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 19, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Are "starter shingles" and "starter rolls" the same thing?



Starter roll is a continuos roll and from the ground shows no seams.


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## Guttersmiths (Mar 19, 2016)

It would be difficult for me to complete a roof tearoff for $200/square and pay all of my men an actual paycheck with payroll taxes, AND earn a profit. I'd ask for this roofer's number so I could sub him out, but I doubt his guys are properly insured. Lawsuits waiting to happen....


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