# No corona virus thread???



## Krich (May 17, 2020)

I figured somebody would be talkin 'bout how that cornvirus got everybody under coneteen by now...


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## bud16415 (May 17, 2020)

Krich said:


> I figured somebody would be talkin 'bout how that cornvirus got everybody under coneteen by now...




It has popped up in a few threads. I started a thread years ago when we were having a super cold winter and posted my outside temp. It pops up from time to time and the last time it was people talking about taking their body temp.



I also have a thread running on things we do with too much time on our hands. That started when I retired but now quite a few people are in the position where they have extra time. I talked to a guy that works at home depot and he said paint sales have been so high. He figured it had to do with people sitting around because of this.



So now we have a thread for talk about it.



We went yellow a week ago. Half of Pa. stayed Red. We have counties that have only seen one or two cases and quickly shut it down. I know an ER doc and he had his hours cut because not too many people are coming in. Just the opposite of what you would think. His wife is a RN and she had her hours cut to zero for a while.



We follow the rules but around here with the good weather lots of people are pretty lax. I was at walmart the other day and everyone shopping had a mask on and all working except the two people slicing lunchmeat in the deli. I just shook my head.

How are you making out?


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## oldognewtrick (May 17, 2020)

Krich said:


> I figured somebody would be talkin 'bout how that cornvirus got everybody under coneteen by now...


Personally, I've read, heard, seen enough of the Wuhan flu to last me 20 lifetimes. What can be said that hasn't already been said. 

Now, don't get me wrong, if you have something to say or feel there's conversation that needs daylight, by all means feel free to contribute.


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## havasu (May 17, 2020)

Wine kills the virus. Yeah, I made that up, but currently in test mode to confirm whether it works or not.


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## shan2themax (May 17, 2020)

I'm annoyed by the hoarding of upright freezers. I ordered one 6 weeks ago to replace my chest freezer that I can no longer use, it's supposed to be delivered curbside mid June.

Also, I'm a nurse, between the 2 hospitals in my healthcare system we had over 1000 employees furloughed, several units closed and some days working short staffed. We are doing elective surgery now so it's filling back up and people are starting to come back to work.


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## bud16415 (May 18, 2020)

I also am a student of the effects this is having on the country more so than the disease itself as bad as it was in some areas. For me it points out how really fragile our society really is, and how fear is far worse than the disease.



The supply chain and free enterprise left mostly alone will react and fill all demands or it used to. Now we are so dependent on what we need coming from so far away it is easy to disrupt or derail it for others demands.



There are a million examples but at Wal-Mart yesterday they had a large display of paper masks. We went over to take a look and the price was outrageous and we decided we didn’t need any at that price. On the way home she mentioned gouging on the pricing and I said maybe or maybe Wal-Mart was preventing hoarding by setting the price so high. We agreed it may just be a combination of them both. Supply and demand is all messed up at this point.



I used to go to the meat section after 4:00 and always find choice cuts marked down once or twice and buy them for close to half price. Take them home and eat them or freeze them. Now the display is near empty. At first I thought it was hoarding so I asked the meat guy I have become friendly with about it. He said no one is buying and they only put out what they get and hardly nothing is showing up. So beef is not making it to market and is just being held up is my guess unlike dairy that has to be milked and they are then dumping milk . The need for products like milk and meat hasn’t changed but the fragile supply chain reaction has it so messed up.



I can guarantee you there are people wanting to make upright freezers and truck drivers wanting to ship you one and stores wanting to sell you one. Who knows why you don’t have one I’m sure fear played some part and people that were on the fence about wanting one might have went that way and part of it is the disruption in the chain.



During this I ordered two wheels and tires from Harbor Freight and from half way across the country I had them in a couple days. Last week I ordered two subwoofers from Amazon and they are coming free shipping from California to my door in a week with free shipping. So the system is still working, but for things there is no fear of needing.



This whole thing should be a great teaching tool for our country, but I’m afraid it is being used for other reasons.

My 2 cents.


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## shan2themax (May 18, 2020)

Bud, great talk! I agree, it's weird how some things are shipping. My refrigerator magnet calendar came in 2 days, but my crockpot I needed took 3 weeks... amazon said it was because it wasnt a priority item.... but a magnetic calendar is? Lol.
I was talking about the freezer at work today and one of the other nurses ordered a THIRD freezer!!! Her kids are grown up, i didnt ask why she needed 3. I will have 2 when mine arrives, but I had planned to pick a family that could benefit from a freezer and who may not be able to afford one, and give them the chest freezer that I have already. 
I agree that our society is very fragile, we can see what would happen should a near apocalyptic event occur and it wont be pretty.
I just finished up my Bachelors degree a few weeks ago (WOOT WOOT) and my newest adventure is learning to can. After that, I may try quilting. I'm hoping my current back issue is easily fixable because I miss being able to do projects around the house.


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## Spicoli43 (May 19, 2020)

I'm tired of all the Governors acting like Dictators, they remind me of little kids that have no power suddenly being put in control of something. The Emmy's for that outstanding bunch are clearly being won by Michigan and New Jersey. My Governor Swastika here in Montana would have a much tighter leash if he wasn't running for Senate. 

The whole operation has been a giant scandal from day 1, with the "experts" like Fauci saying there was no need for masks, but then completely flipping on that. It's extremely disturbing to me that he backed funding for the Wuhan lab while at the NIAID. That's why they kept insisting that it was from the market until investigators figured it out. The people that are drunk on power are trying to control the narrative, but people will lose their minds real soon if they don't back off. 

Now, looking at the world, I guess people in Angola are Superhuman, being that they have 10 percent of our population, but only 50 cases and 3 deaths. That's really weird, unless you factor in that Medicare pays hospitals much more for reported Covid cases and deaths than any other condition. I wonder why there was never a massive vaccine push for SARS or MERS? I'll end this rant with the truth. If you want to be free, you have to move to a free country, or you have to take yours back. 

Now, on to more pleasant things, as far as meat, I suggest finding a local farm on the website Eat Wild. The one I found here has Grass Fed / Grass Finished for $4 /lb. for a Whole, or $4.50 for a Half. I would need another freezer, though, and didn't even think they would be in short supply. 

Thanks for what you do, shan. You people are the only ones holding the severely flawed system together.


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## zepper (Jun 4, 2020)

This whole virus thing has sure gone viral, hasn't it?


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## shan2themax (Jun 4, 2020)

It's crazy times for sure. My facility still has one unit closed and one unit only doing certain things. I am getting ready to work the next 4 days, so I am sure that there is a possibility we are totally up and running.... but I'm not convinced it will be. 
I've gotten so I dont.post about it at all on facebook. It's a touchy subject to alot of people. I see it from both sides. I wish people would listen instead of spreading false information. For instance..... hospitals are empty because most revenue comes from elective procedures..... no procedures, not as much need for beds. You cant just willy Billy stick COVID-19 patients on the same floor as med-surg/cardiac patients. So the lack of full parking lots or filled to capacity hospitals is because there arent procedures being done at the same capacity.
You cant teach people who dont want to be taught.... wash your hands, stay away from.people who are sick or if you are sick, sneeze into your shirt (not onto), keep your hands off your face. All things were were taught in kindergarten. 
Anyways, I hope.everyone is safe and HAPPY. We arent promised tomorrow take advantage of today.


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## MrMiz (Jun 5, 2020)

I live about 10 min from a JBS meat plant. It's probably THE plant if not one of the biggest beef plants in the US. The reason you don't have much beef on the shelves right now is because there was a mass out break of the virus at the plant. They had to use the local Universities dorms for the spill over from the hospital. So the cows are still out there, there just isn't anybody to butcher them. They changed their stuff around and are now back to work but I would say their capacity to crank out beef is down by at least 60%. So beef will SLOWLY start to trickle back into the stores at a very limited supply. The rules for distancing don't allow for mass production of anything ESPECIALLY time sensitive products like beef. So unless you have a local butcher, and a local person raising, your out of luck. I have both and they are both swamped with business. The rules also have introduced extensive additional costs to the plant. They hired more cleaning staff, and have to supply and unending amount of PPE. So yes the price of your beef is going to skyrocket. I don't believe anybody is price gouging. I have local examples of the fact that to get butchered meat to your store it's now costing 25% more if you have a plant withing 100 miles. Drastically more cost for more distance. The poor grocery store clerks are getting the brunt of the stress because most people are yelling at them because of the price of things, but the reality is the company isn't going to loose money to get you your "stuff" otherwise they have to close down, and a lot of them are dangerously close to closing already. Again not globally I'm speaking about my area locally ( which happens to have the #1 global provider of beef).

Have you noticed amazon is canceling most if not all of their "amazon basics" items? I've order 3 in the last couple of months and all 3 were deliveries were cancelled. I suspect they had the exact same problem JBS is having. Warehouses are a terrible place for viruses. The items that come from a different location all still get delivered, but the Amazon warehouses aren't cranking much if anything out. I worked in a software packaging plant 20 years ago and they basically lined people up shoulder to shoulder on a production line having them fold, pack, and label as fast as their hand could move.... that isn't going to happen anymore with any products.


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## bud16415 (Jun 5, 2020)

I can feel for the meat packers plight but lets not forget the farmer that has a multi year pipeline getting meat to market. He is left holding and feeding his stock until a point in time the market return. The cost of the slowdown on the processing end can be made up as supply is low and demand is high. It is the exact opposite from the farmers side of the pipeline. Because of the slowdown demand is low and supply is high and not only is it costing the farmer in lost sales he is also in a market with too much supply. Meat, dairy etc is a long running deal. If a farmer has 200 milking cows and the supply chain slows he cant throw a switch and start milking 100. Well he can but for that to happen he needs to beef his dairy cows and sell them into a low market and then this is over and it takes him a few years to build the number back up.



The farmers have got some help thru this and taken a lot of heat for it also.

All this is why you see Walmart building a huge dairy operation and every day another family dairy goes under here.


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## MrMiz (Jun 5, 2020)

Just to clarify. 7 people have died and 280 confirmed cases of covid-19 at the local plant as of the beginning of last month. 



MrMiz said:


> I live about 10 min from a JBS meat plant. It's probably THE plant if not one of the biggest beef plants in the US. The reason you don't have much beef on the shelves right now is because there was a mass out break of the virus at the plant. They had to use the local Universities dorms for the spill over from the hospital. So the cows are still out there, there just isn't anybody to butcher them. They changed their stuff around and are now back to work but I would say their capacity to crank out beef is down by at least 60%. So beef will SLOWLY start to trickle back into the stores at a very limited supply. The rules for distancing don't allow for mass production of anything ESPECIALLY time sensitive products like beef. So unless you have a local butcher, and a local person raising, your out of luck. I have both and they are both swamped with business. The rules also have introduced extensive additional costs to the plant. They hired more cleaning staff, and have to supply and unending amount of PPE. So yes the price of your beef is going to skyrocket. I don't believe anybody is price gouging. I have local examples of the fact that to get butchered meat to your store it's now costing 25% more if you have a plant withing 100 miles. Drastically more cost for more distance. The poor grocery store clerks are getting the brunt of the stress because most people are yelling at them because of the price of things, but the reality is the company isn't going to loose money to get you your "stuff" otherwise they have to close down, and a lot of them are dangerously close to closing already. Again not globally I'm speaking about my area locally ( which happens to have the #1 global provider of beef).
> 
> Have you noticed amazon is canceling most if not all of their "amazon basics" items? I've order 3 in the last couple of months and all 3 were deliveries were cancelled. I suspect they had the exact same problem JBS is having. Warehouses are a terrible place for viruses. The items that come from a different location all still get delivered, but the Amazon warehouses aren't cranking much if anything out. I worked in a software packaging plant 20 years ago and they basically lined people up shoulder to shoulder on a production line having them fold, pack, and label as fast as their hand could move.... that isn't going to happen anymore with any products.


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## shan2themax (Jun 5, 2020)

I am confused as to why 90/10 beef is my area is cheaper then 80/20


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## bud16415 (Jun 6, 2020)

shan2themax said:


> I am confused as to why 90/10 beef is my area is cheaper then 80/20


I assume you are talking about ground meat.



The only answer I can think of is a lot of dairies are going under and good milking cows are being sold for beef as other dairies are having a hard time and not wanting to expand in size right now. Dairy cows are very lean and are often made into all burger as they are in general a little tougher cut of meat.



That could be one explanation and again supply and demand if there is a lot of something then the price goes down.

The first time I made a hamburger from dairy farm ground meat I made it to shrink up like I always have and I got laughed at when my burgers were twice the size of the buns.


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## shan2themax (Jun 6, 2020)

Yes bud! There has been almost zero shrinkage.... makes sense with that description!

One of my local grocers bought beef tenderloin from cruise ships. The first couple of weeks he sold the whole tenderloin for $7.99/lb
I'm not fancy so I had never had it. I had them cut it into 1" stick and then they ground 3# into ground beef. My goodness,  that was THE MOST delicious burger I have ever had! I actually bought 2. The second one, I fixed as a tenderloin and it was delicious.  I still have the steaks from the first tenderloin. I might make some this week. Or at least make omelettes with one or 2 of them.


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## dothanmetalbuildings (Nov 10, 2020)

Anybody else having trouble keeping guys on job sites due to covid? What are y'all doing to make it through?


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## Krich (Nov 10, 2020)

Yeah, too bad we're turning in to a nation of cup cakes!

Without a survival rate of over 98%, this chinese communist party virus is no where near as bad as the media makes it out to be with their constant fear mongering. Pathetic!


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## Fireguy5674 (Nov 11, 2020)

While I understand your thought and agree partially, I am almost 65.  I am active and take care of my 40 ac. every day, but I really don't relish the thought of joining the roughly 240,000 people from teens to 90 somethings who are 6' under.  Some of those people who were absolutely convinced this is an overblown figment of every ones imagination are among that 240,000. I realize that if you say that number really fast it doesn't sound like a lot, but sit down and write "It won't happen to me." 240,00 times and I bet you get hand cramps.


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## Krich (Nov 11, 2020)

Yes and the books are being cooked to claim far more people have died from this than actually have.  The CDC let the cat out of the bad a couple of months ago when they said less than 10k had died directly from this virus and all others had on average 2.6 major health issues which is what they actually died from.

And more recently they said out of the number being claimed to have died from the virus 51k actually died of a heart attack. 

There is a narrative in play here to control the masses and what better way to do this than thru the fear of death?

We're all going to die eventually and those that have made reservations with *JC* to join Him in the afterlife have no fear of death and are actually looking forward to leaving this sin sick, God forsaken dark, violent, disgusting world!

It's all comes down to who's kool-aid you want to drink


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## bud16415 (Nov 11, 2020)

I can only speak to our personal experience we have both recovered from covid19 about a week ago. I’m 65 and she is younger and we are both pretty active but I held back a little more as I figured I was in a higher risk age group, but face it when you live with others if one of you get it the other will likely get it as well. She had symptoms first loss of taste and smell and sore throat and slight breathing discomfort. I told her go get a test and she did and they advise you to assume you have it even though it takes a week to get the results. So we started a 14 day lock down. When they called and said she had it I was also getting the same symptoms and they suggested I should just assume I have it also and I was ok with not having a swab shoved up my nose. And was already locked down. I know others have serious problems with it but for us it was about like having a mild cold. I have in the past a couple times had a rough bout with flu and this was nothing like that and just about every winter I get a cold that’s much worse than we had with covid19. I did start taking zinc as soon as she started having issues and I did get my quad flu shot a month ago. Her mother a nurse also came down with it a week before we did and we may have got it from her. She also called it a mild cold like symptoms.



Today I went out for a short bike ride maybe 3 miles and I can tell my lungs are not 100% and muscles were a little sore when riding but each day it gets a little better and some of it might be from sitting on the couch for 3 weeks.



All in all we didn’t hear of one case here in our little corner of Pa of anyone we knew personally and now we know about a dozen. No one we know were admitted to the hospital but one lady we know had some breathing treatments over a couple days.



I guess I have some immunity now for at least a while. We are still wearing our masks but going on with life as normal. Over the weekend we went out for dinner and it was nice to feel like we were doing something normal again. They were seating people every other table and the workers all had masks.

My sister who is 10 years older than me has been scared to death or of death and has not set foot out of her house for 9 months now. We talk on the phone is all and once I drove over and we talked on the phone thru her window. I never told her I had it even as all that would have done is convince her to stay locked in forever. Life is about taking smart risks because if not it isn’t life it is just existing.


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## Fireguy5674 (Nov 12, 2020)

Glad to hear you and yours are doing well Bud.  

I don't huddle in the house.  I try to condense my trips to town a little more and wear a mask when I do go.  But there is some reason the hospitals fill up when the Covid positivity rates go up.  So, if we all just abandon any kind of caution and let this freewheel there is a real possibility that there will be no room in hospitals when there is a wreck with injuries or a heart attack or whatever.  Or there aren't enough doctors to treat you when you have a need.  Ask people in third world countries with poorer medical systems. 

The other factor that tends to make me believe Covid deaths are real is the average mortality rates.  The figures I have seen show that mortality rates climb when Covid cases spike.  While we now are better at treating Covid, so there is less increase, there is still a correlation.  No one has to decide who died of Covid and who didn't.  The numbers are the numbers.

As usual, the truth probably lies somewhere between the two extremes.  Also, as usual, we tend to believe only what we actually see.  I don't personally know anyone that has died or even been really sick.  The biggest outbreak in the county where I live has been in the state prison.  I believe the county still has well under 100 deaths.  However, the cases are rising as with most places right now, so that means there are more exposure risks.  One grandson and a daughter-in-law currently have Covid.  The daughter-in-law was having some difficulty breathing yesterday.  A step son has been exposed and can't go home while he quarantines.  The county is putting him up in a hotel for two weeks.  I found out yesterday that a friend, who I sat across from in a meeting a week ago, tested positive yesterday.  

People who are spreading the virus either asymptomatically or before symptoms appear don't put off any warnings so it is easy to get complacent.  I know I do.  I believe it is going to be a long winter before the vaccine becomes available and we start to get a handle on this.

Just my thoughts.


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## bud16415 (Nov 12, 2020)

Fireguy5674 said:


> Glad to hear you and yours are doing well Bud.
> 
> I don't huddle in the house.  I try to condense my trips to town a little more and wear a mask when I do go.  But there is some reason the hospitals fill up when the Covid positivity rates go up.  So, if we all just abandon any kind of caution and let this freewheel there is a real possibility that there will be no room in hospitals when there is a wreck with injuries or a heart attack or whatever.  Or there aren't enough doctors to treat you when you have a need.  Ask people in third world countries with poorer medical systems.
> 
> ...




I totally agree that the truth is someplace in the middle. In the very beginning the story was that the lock down was to flatten the curve. It was a buying time strategy more than stopping the thing strategy. I remember hearing the experts say if we do nothing there will likely be a big spike that would overwhelm the medical system and cause a shortage of beds and equipment like ventilators. So the smart play was taken and even though there were no cases around here we all went into lockdown while the big cities like NYC exploded at a slower rate than it could have been. There were smatterings of cases here and the tracking and all that worked pretty good. The government IMO did it right and took off pushing the development of cures and treatments and reacting to the shortages with everything from hospitals to equipment like ventilators. Trump brought that huge hospital ship into NYC that never got used and converted a convention hall into another hospital and gave the city 10X what they wanted or needed.



Sadly it was an election year and everything went political regarding the response ending in the election.



We have an ER doctor in the family and I have had a few good talks with him about what is going on. He sees people coming in having strokes, heart attacks, etc all forms of life threatening stuff and the first thing they do after stabilizing them with all the covid19 protocols is test them. many of them test positive and many of them end up dying and are counted as covid deaths. True the overall death rate is going up at the same time and he is also seeing all kinds of drug, suicide, domestic violence, street violence etc going up. Who knows what is going on if it’s related to job loss, lock down, politics, or just public unrest. It just is what it is and the information we are getting is really clouded IMO over the last 4-5 months.



I saw some early reporting that says just about every year 30k people die from the flu and related things. Every year huge numbers of people die as a result of obesity and we just take it as facts. So I really don’t know what to believe most of the time.



Like you I wear my mask even though I know most of the air I’m sucking in is coming in around the sides and the filtration even thru the mask is not fine enough. I see a lot of people with it over their mouth but not the nose. I see husband and wife and 3 kids grocery shopping as a family and think can’t 4 of them stay in the car. I got yelled at by a lady at walmart for going the wrong direction as what I wanted was 5’ up the one way street. Ca now has rules for Thanksgiving that only allow 2 hours for a multi family dinner no more than 10 people and no singing.



The swine flu a few years ago also had the warning of pandemic and was handled much poorer and fortunately wasn’t as bad as first predictions thought. So by luck we all got past that one.



If anything positive comes out of this it should show us or teach us what it would or will be like if a really nasty bug gets out. Unfortunately I don’t think we have learned much.

Just my thoughts as well.  Thanks for the well wishing.


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## tomtheelder2020 (Nov 18, 2020)

Krich, If a person with diabetes is admitted to the hospital with Covid and dies, it is the Covid that killed them, not the disease they have lived with for years and likely would have continued living with for years more. If there are so few true Covid deaths, why is El Paso using refrigerator trucks for extra morgue capacity and using the convention center for emergency hospital bed space? If that is being faked, why are the thousands of healtcare workers at El Paso hospitals not speaking out? In fact, why aren't the millions of Dr.s, nurses, orderlies, and other hospital staff around the country contacting their local news to expose the truth? That is one very deep conspiracy! Even more amazing is how wide the conspiracy reaches. All but the most remote nations in the world are reporting the same impact and all of those that can manage it are recommending the same approach (masks, distance, disinfection) to control the spread. I don't know who might be behind such a conspiracy but keeping 10s of millions of healthcare workers around the world from exposing it seems like a daunting task.


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## slownsteady (Nov 19, 2020)

250,000 people dead...........250 THOUSAND..............1/4 MILLION
some hoax.


I wish you luck Krich. I hope you don't find out the hard way.

If you look at the big picture you can see it's real. Sure, you can find a dot or line in the picture to pick on and criticize, but the picture doesn't fall apart.


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## tomtheelder2020 (Nov 19, 2020)

Bud, Mississippi's death certificate procedures explain why the death certificate of someone who came in with a heart attack would include Covid: 
COVID-19 Death Reporting: Questions and Answers for Medical Examiners, Coroners and Physicians - Mississippi State Department of Health

Krich, this article explains why the social media posts claiming only a small percentage of reported deaths are actually due to Covid are wrong - people misinterpreted data they did not understand:  
CDC has not reduced the death count related to COVID-19

It is also true that different jurisdictions appear to use different procedures, and some of those have changed over time. In Washington, initial reporting did include deaths for anyone who tested positive - but the data was revised and cases where Covid was not a cause were removed as of July 1:   
https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Do...rtDeathsReCOVID.pdf?ver=2020-06-17-151822-090


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## havasu (Nov 20, 2020)

How Many People Die of Cancer Each Year? In 2020, an estimated *606,520* people will die of cancer in the United States. Lung and bronchus cancer is responsible for the most deaths with *135,720* people expected to die from this disease. 

Lets say 50% had also contracted Covid during treatment in the hospital for their cancer. Well, guess what, all these deaths will be tied to Covid, so the states can redeem the free $17,000 CARE money.

In my opinion, the majority is bunk. I know one person who died from Covid. Well actually, she had major medical problems including kidney dialysis 3 times a week, contracted Covid and died.


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## slownsteady (Nov 20, 2020)

Sorry that you lost a friend. Please don't let your disbelief cause you to endanger your family.


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## havasu (Nov 20, 2020)

There was a recent study that being locked down is actually harming us more than being out in the world. If your immune system is not tested daily, you lose the antibodies which are there to protect you. Hiding in your house, with limited exposure to family/friends, is causing our suicide rate to increase exponentially. People in nursing homes have spent nearly an entire year on lockdown. What life is that? Put me in that position and I will find a way to end my life, or just shut down and quit fighting.

Just my honest opinion.


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## bud16415 (Nov 20, 2020)

I believe I could die from Covid19 and so could my friends and family. Close as I can figure my risk of dying when I got it were pretty slim and better than if I had got it even 6 months before as there are better therapeutics now than then. So maybe with my age and my health problems I fell into the 99% success range and she is younger and in better health maybe the 99.9% range. As it was we were both lucky and actually we both had mild symptoms hers was a little worse than mine. I had my regular flu quad shot a few weeks before maybe that factored in as I have heard reports both ways on that.



But life is about risk and I agree with havasu one of my personal saddest parts of this is we have two of her grandparents 90s in nursing homes and there is no provision or hardly none for seeing them and letting them know they are loved still. One place suggests we stand outside in the yard and call them and say hi thru the window over phone and we have done that and her granny kept saying come on in and see me. Her other grandmother you are allowed one person one visit a week to a special plexiglas wall room. So her grandfather or her kids get the 30 minute visits.



There are lots of ways to die and risk involved. Someone mentioned cancer and like Covid19 sometimes you have little control over if you get it. Then there is a lot of what we can die from that is controllable. Smoking, Obesity, Suicide, Drug and Alcohol, Driving fatalities, and the list goes on. These combined are huge numbers of deaths as well many times the huge number that is Covid19 even and hardly anyone talks about them. I also agree that even one death is too many and when it is a loved one it is a tragedy.



One of the great things about this country is we have always had the right to live our life freely until our rights infringe on the rights of others. We are allowed to eat fast food and drink 32 oz soft drinks or smoke. The right of drinking and smoking is ok as long as you don’t blow your smoke into my lungs or drive your car on the road with mine after drinking.



There has to be some belief that people are smart enough to take care of themselves and the government can advise and let people figure out if they want the risk. A church that holds 1000 people can’t legally open when they might get 100 people wearing masks and sitting 10’ apart but our casino can tape off every other slot machine and it is fine. Telling people they can’t have 11 people for Thanksgiving dinner that all know the risks is ridicules when 10 is ok. It is ok to drink in a bar full of people all day but at 10pm look out covid will spread. What ever happened to common sense.



When I got called for contact tracing it took over an hour with them asking dates and times and where I went and who I saw and what is their age and sex and how do I relate my gender as etc. Then I tell the woman oh and on the day I was likely shedding active covid19 I went to walmart for an hour to shop for food and had to have past in the aisle a 100 people she says oh we don’t need to know that. By the way to the question of my gender identity I answered I need more time to think on that one.

Now that we have had it my understanding is there is some period of time where we have some immunity to giving or getting it. So if you invite me for Thanksgiving dinner should you count me as now I’m part of the herd and a good thing. Do I need a mask? Can I get closer than 6’? can I give grandma a hug? I say not because there is something more to this and I still feel I have to conform to the rules. I see people here jogging totally alone going down the road with a mask on. I see people driving alone with the windows up with a mask on. There is more to this than we think.


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## Flyover (Nov 29, 2020)

I've seen the term "sanitation theater", like "security theater" at the airport where they do all this rigamarole with metal detectors and taking off your shoes that in reality doesn't do much to keep people safer, because motivated terrorists will always find their way around it.

Looking around at the world I definitely see a lot of sanitation theater. To some extent the executive orders and such that have cropped up in response to Covid are sanitation theater. That would include stuff like you can have 10 people over for Thanksgiving but not 11, or letting the casinos tape off every other slot machine but not letting churches even open their doors. The most ridiculous was this summer when I saw local high school sports teams practicing: the coach would be wearing a mask while all the players panted and shouted to each other with bare faces, sometimes inches apart.

But at the same time, I understand our society's authority structures are trying to respond to a virus we don't yet know everything about, in a way that gets a desired result. So whatever they tell us to do has to be easy to understand and comply with. They can't make the rules too complicated or nuanced. We end up settling on a lot of arbitrary numbers (6 feet apart, 10 people over for Thanksgiving, 10pm curfew, etc.) that don't really stand up to logic. But that isn't the point: they're just simple things where if enough people sorta get close enough to abiding by them, then the statistical number of cases can be kept low enough to not overwhelm the hospital system.

That's how I think of it anyway. Remember what George Carlin said (paraphrasing from memory): "Picture someone with a 100 IQ. Pretty dumb, right? Well, half of people are dumber than that!"


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## slownsteady (Nov 29, 2020)

You seem to have thought about this pretty well, Flyover. I wish more people would. I agree that some of the confusion is in the fact that we are just learning how to deal with this virus. And a lot of the confusion is in the politicians trying to thread the needle between safety and letting people do stuff.

Let me add that the logic I see behind the 10:00 cufew is simply that the later it gets in a bar, the more people are drunk beyond reasonable thinking. Drunk people do stupid things.


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## bud16415 (Nov 30, 2020)

I agree drunk people do stupid things and each year around 10,000 people die as a result of drunk driving and a much larger number are seriously injured. Not to mention the health risk of excessive drinking. The cost to society is billions of dollars and a lot of that directly or indirectly comes out of the average citizen pocket. So covid19 restrictions should also lower that number, but my guess is it wont and indications show the numbers are rising with alcohol and drug deaths.



The simple answer was once tried and that was prohibition and we know how that worked out.



There are also many non-stupid people that enjoy alcohol and use it responsibly these are likely the same people that understand to social distance and wear a mask and not to subject grandma and grandpa with underlying health issues to higher risk settings. They also have rights and anytime you restrict a stupid persons rights you also restrict a responsible persons rights.



Around here bars had to close but drinking where food was served was allowed. They started serving you a pack of crackers with your beer and that was ok for a while. Then they said no it has to be a nutritious meal so they were handing out protein bars with a total meal in them and they had a bucket by the door if you didn’t eat it you could return it for someone else.

Bottom line is the government will restrict people going to bars after a certain time because it is good for us because of covid19 and then make other recreational drugs legal because that’s a good idea also. I have found people that have jobs and are making money mostly leave the bar before 10pm because they have to get up and go to work and it seems these holidays are now the problem because they draw people together, similar to how churches do. So maybe a government that controls it all is the solution no holidays no church mandatory work. Wait we have some countries like that. I have been hearing some people like that idea also and want it here.


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## Rusty (Nov 30, 2020)

My cousin died last week after 6 weeks in ICU with covid. His turned into mrsa in his lungs. He could not speak because of the tubes but wrote that he wanted to die. He was in extreme pain. He was 74.

A friend who was 40 died from covid a few weeks back.
My heart doctor tells me that if I get it, I probably won't survive. My wife and my handicapped son probably won't either.
But the lockdowns are ruining the economy. We are in a no-win situation.


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## bud16415 (Nov 30, 2020)

Rusty said:


> My cousin died last week after 6 weeks in ICU with covid. His turned into mrsa in his lungs. He could not speak because of the tubes but wrote that he wanted to die. He was in extreme pain. He was 74.
> 
> A friend who was 40 died from covid a few weeks back.
> My heart doctor tells me that if I get it, I probably won't survive. My wife and my handicapped son probably won't either.
> But the lockdowns are ruining the economy. We are in a no-win situation.


Sorry to hear about your cousin



We had an older woman 80s that was really well known in our little town as she was the town historian pass from covid19 this week. There have been a few cases but she was the first I heard that died in our little town.



You are right it is a two-sided problem and we know who the most vulnerable are. There are now 20M people that have had it and are now fine and they should be allowed to work and keep things moving. I’m retired and doing ok financially and there was no economic impact on me due to this but I got money along with everyone else. With this kind of an emergency I would think it would go by need and try and keep the country going while protecting those at risk. We are not too good at doing that we lock everyone down or we send everyone money. It is always a one size fits all solution.



My sister and her husband are around 75 and they assessed the risk and locked themselves inside for the year. I talked to her on Thanksgiving and said the immunization is right around the corner and she said I would never take that. She told me she expects to be locked in for at least another year and if I want to see her I can come to her sidewalk and see her thru the window. She may well be a covid19 fatality and never get it. Where she lives hardly anyone walks past her house. I told her put a mask on and go for a walk. She said absolutely not there is just too much risk in that. I told her at least change from watching the 24-7 news she is watching.

I’m going to the doctors today my normal visit where she tells me I’m doing good for the condition I’m in. I will try and get a date on when I can get a shot and get the ball rolling.


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## Rusty (Nov 30, 2020)

They can't know the long term effects of the vaccine, Just look at other meds that worked in trials but not in the long haul. Thalidomide, treated morning sickness and deformed thousands of babies. Zantac, treated acid reflux, and caused cancer. Celebrex (Vioxx) treated pain and caused heart attacks and many other drugs. They all tested safe in short trials but were deadly in the long term. As far as the stimulus check, many seniors who are on fixed income have suffered because of the raise in grocery prices.


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## Spicoli43 (Nov 30, 2020)

Rusty said:


> They can't know the long term effects of the vaccine, Just look at other meds that worked in trials but not in the long haul. Thalidomide, treated morning sickness and deformed thousands of babies. Zantac, treated acid reflux, and caused cancer. Celebrex (Vioxx) treated pain and caused heart attacks and many other drugs. They all tested safe in short trials but were deadly in the long term. As far as the stimulus check, many seniors who are on fixed income have suffered because of the raise in grocery prices.



Sorry for your losses. I won't take any of the mRNA vaccines (Moderna, Pfizer). That technology has never been used and was actually called dangerous for humans. They scrubbed that from the web recently, so that reinforces my decision. I had a Heart Attack from Celebrex (Celicoxib). My knees never felt better though! I won't take any drug because of that. There is absolutely no regulation, the FDA is there but doesn't do anything. I mean, when Tums can kill you via Heart Attack, it's obvious they aren't actively regulating the industry. 

I will strongly consider a plant based vaccine if one is developed. One such company I am investigating is iBio. A plant based vaccine has also never been used, but theoretically wouldn't require the additives like traditional egg and insect based vaccines such as Formaldehyde, Aluminum, Antifreeze, Human Bovine Serum, Calf Bovine Serum etc.


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## bud16415 (Nov 30, 2020)

Rusty said:


> They can't know the long term effects of the vaccine, Just look at other meds that worked in trials but not in the long haul. Thalidomide, treated morning sickness and deformed thousands of babies. Zantac, treated acid reflux, and caused cancer. Celebrex (Vioxx) treated pain and caused heart attacks and many other drugs. They all tested safe in short trials but were deadly in the long term. As far as the stimulus check, many seniors who are on fixed income have suffered because of the raise in grocery prices.


Yes you can never be sure and you listed some good ones. Then there are the many millions of lives that are saved by the ones that do work out I won’t list them all.



Thing is this corona19 bug needs a passenger to keep it going. In theory if we all 100% went inside and had no outside contact for 15 days it would be done.



The idea is once a certain percentage of people have it the chain reaction will slow and stop on its own. Every year I get the quad flu shot and hopefully the flu that comes up will be one of them. This is a more deadly bug but it is the same idea. I read that the swine flu was much worse in terms of spread and the powers to be handled it much worse back then. We were all lucky it just wasn’t as deadly about 500,000 died world wide from H1N1.  The Spanish flu got 500 million world wide and 675,000 in the US in 1918 when the population was lower.



So I know there is risk with even a “cure” but I’m willing to take a risk knowing what the results could be. I have quite a few family members that won’t get a flu shot because they say they did once and then got the flu from it. I also have family members that won’t get their kids any childhood shots for religious reasons I don’t understand.

That’s what a free country is I guess.


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## Rusty (Nov 30, 2020)

My daughter won't let my granddaughter have the much-pushed HPV. 
some admitted side effects are:

Blood clots.
Seizures.
Guillain-Barré syndrome.
Chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy.
Mylgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome.
Death.


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## slownsteady (Dec 1, 2020)

The problem I see coming is when the vaccine starts to roll out slowly. Some folks will be vaccinated and take their masks off, some will think it is conquered and take their masks off, some will just use it as an excuse to not wear a mask. Problem is, they will all look the same to the rest of us who haven't had the shot yet. You won't know who to trust in a casual encounter. Especially in a store where people mingle and employees can't avoid customers.


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## bud16415 (Dec 1, 2020)

Yep it goes back to people and everyone knows more than the doctors. If wal-mart still has there sign up you must wear a mask then you have two choices wear a mask and go in or go shop someplace else. No one is telling you that you have to wear a mask just you need one to shop there. As a kid they used to have signs no shoes, no shirts, no service. Trouble is we have an entitled part of the population that says it is there right to shop at wal-mart and we have a soft stand on people that don’t follow the rules.



I have had covid19 so I’m told I now have an immunity to it for a period of time. I wear my mask when in a social setting that requires it as to the rules. I can have a different opinion than others as to how effective a mask is and I have never really seen anyones mask denied. Wal-mart workers are issued clear plastic face shields that are great if they are planning to run a grinder, but IMO wont stop any bug getting past even a housefly. People seem fine with it though and I see them selling like hot cakes on TV.



The other day I saw a video of a hiker sitting by a trail and a fellow hiker comes by and tells him to put his damn mask on. The guy says chill out dude I have had covid and I’m better now and we are in the woods and 10’ apart or some such logical thing. The other dude takes off his mask screaming and yelling and comes over to the guy and starts spitting on him. That’s how crazy this is getting.



My plan isn’t much different than it was before. I don’t like to get colds and the flu so during the season I try and stay away from people. I actually think now that I’m used to this mask thing and hand sanitizer thing, I might just keep doing it after covid19 is gone when in close public settings.



There are many different ideas how the vaccine should be rolled out and I believe the CDC is voting today on who lives or dies with the first batch. My hope is they start with every nursing home staff and residents Then front line workers that are older and then younger. Then senior citizens with underlying conditions and we all have them.



There are people out there that say support the workers first and don’t worry about those that are past their working years as their good to humanity has passed. Then share the vaccine worldwide before taking care of the general American population. The reason given is it will circle back around. This also follows with the elimination of the America First policies that we have been under.

Who knows my sister may be correct and she and I might not ever see the vaccine.


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## Flyover (Dec 1, 2020)

slownsteady said:


> The problem I see coming is when the vaccine starts to roll out slowly. Some folks will be vaccinated and take their masks off, some will think it is conquered and take their masks off, some will just use it as an excuse to not wear a mask. Problem is, they will all look the same to the rest of us who haven't had the shot yet. You won't know who to trust in a casual encounter. Especially in a store where people mingle and employees can't avoid customers.



I expect there'll be a lot of public announcements about that.


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## Rusty (Dec 1, 2020)

bud16415 said:


> Yep it goes back to people and everyone knows more than the doctors. If wal-mart still has there sign up you must wear a mask then you have two choices wear a mask and go in or go shop someplace else. No one is telling you that you have to wear a mask just you need one to shop there. As a kid they used to have signs no shoes, no shirts, no service. Trouble is we have an entitled part of the population that says it is there right to shop at wal-mart and we have a soft stand on people that don’t follow the rules.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Our local walmart has a sign up but doesn't enforce it. All people have to do is claim they have a breathing problem and they can't be forced to wear one.


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## bud16415 (Dec 2, 2020)

Rusty said:


> Our local walmart has a sign up but doesn't enforce it. All people have to do is claim they have a breathing problem and they can't be forced to wear one.


Yep it is the namby pamby world we live in now. You can get away with most anything because it is politically correctness to not rock the boat.



It is fine if you have a breathing problem all the more reason you don’t want to get covid19.



It is pretty simple every Walmart has at least two people standing at both doors counting people and cleaning carts. They simply tell you no mask no entry. If you tell them if they go in to shop the police will be called that simple. Oh I forgot police are not allowed to really do anything and if they were to ask someone to leave the person is allowed to resist or spit on them or anything they can think of and if the cops use force someone else will catch it on a cell phone and it will be deemed police brutality.



It is not like Walmart and every other store hasn’t bent over backwards to shop for you and give curbside pickup.

God help us if we ever get a worse pandemic where catching it means you die.


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## Rusty (Dec 2, 2020)

The death rate from covid in my county is 8 times higher than the death from flu. I live in a very rural county. Biggest city is 8,000.


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## havasu (Dec 2, 2020)

Rusty said:


> The death rate from covid in my county is 8 times higher than the death from flu. I live in a very rural county. Biggest city is 8,000.



Are they dying from Covid, or are they dying from other illnesses and happen to have been tested as positive for Covid at the time of their death? A big difference. 

Los Angeles Health officials have stated 40% of Covid deaths are from people in Convalescent Homes, already dying from other diseases. You subtract that 40% from Los Angeles deaths, and this isn't even as bad as our typical flu season. 

Scare tactics IMHO.


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## bud16415 (Dec 2, 2020)

havasu said:


> Are they dying from Covid, or are they dying from other illnesses and happen to have been tested as positive for Covid at the time of their death? A big difference.
> 
> Los Angeles Health officials have stated 40% of Covid deaths are from people in Convalescent Homes, already dying from other diseases. You subtract that 40% from Los Angeles deaths, and this isn't even as bad as our typical flu season.
> 
> Scare tactics IMHO.


I saw something the other day along the same line. Some very high percentage of covid19 deaths already had a DNR in place. Also death counts from other causes were down.

There is a lot of conflicting information out there.


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 2, 2020)

havasu said:


> Are they dying from Covid, or are they dying from other illnesses and happen to have been tested as positive for Covid at the time of their death? A big difference.
> 
> Los Angeles Health officials have stated 40% of Covid deaths are from people in Convalescent Homes, already dying from other diseases. You subtract that 40% from Los Angeles deaths, and this isn't even as bad as our typical flu season.
> 
> Scare tactics IMHO.



Yeah. That info has been buried since the start, but it was reported early that Medicare is paying more for "Covid" cases than if a senior walked in with COPD that he or she has had for 20 years. If the hospital were pressured, which they wouldn't be since it's money printed out of thin air anyway, they just simply say the test was positive. Nobody can argue with that, since half the time the tests work and half the time they don't. Take Elon Musk testing positive twice and negative twice on the same day. 

Then if the senior dies, they don't change the cause to COPD. If hospitals weren't corrupt, we might have an accurate count, but then they couldn't lock down the states. It's obvious how real "drastic" the situation is with all the "leaders" getting caught breaking their rules.


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## slownsteady (Dec 2, 2020)

bud16415 said:


> You can get away with most anything because it is politically correctness to not rock the boat


You can get away with almost anything.....like not wearing a mask if it is inconvenient. Seems to me like that is not a matter of political correctness, but simple courtesy to other human beings



havasu said:


> 40% of Covid deaths are from people in Convalescent Homes, already dying from other diseases.


People go to Hospice to die. They go to convalescent homes to get better. It is because their systems are compromised that makes them easier targets for Covid. So yeah, Covid is a cause of death.



bud16415 said:


> Some very high percentage of covid19 deaths already had a DNR in place.


You have to be pretty sick for the DNR to be activated. And you don't usually have a DNR unless you are old or unhealthy in the first place.



Spicoli43 said:


> Take Elon Musk testing positive twice and negative twice on the same day.


Elon Musk took the instant test, which is not all that accurate. EXPERTS say that if you get a positive on the instant test, you should follow it up with a PCR test, which is more accurate. If Elon would have done that, he wouldn't have had to take the three additional instant tests.


My overall point is that these are all little threads you're pulling on. It doesn't undo the whole tapestry that this sh!tshow has become.


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## bud16415 (Dec 2, 2020)

It may well be a courtesy to other humans and those are the people following the guidelines. It is entitlement to feel it is everyone but your job to do what’s right. If a one governor makes a state of lock down for his people and then goes out to dinner with a dozen non related people that’s entitlement. Another governor tells his people not to travel for thanksgiving and then jumps on an airplane to go visit his family that’s entitlement. The list goes on. So people see this and figure I don’t need to wear a mask as they are also entitled. People don’t believe in getting their kids vaccinated for childhood stuff as if all the other kids are they will be fine.



Yes we are all in this together some more than others it seems.



IMO, Facts are no longer facts in the world we live in. Everything is viewed thru personal filters. If we can’t agree on something as simple as a mask then we can’t agree on much else.  



The good news is Operation Warp Speed is a success and the CDC is getting the immunization out to the most vulnerable and the most at risk first and it sounds like that will be happening very soon. In the past this process took 3-4 years and to compress that time frame to 10 months was quite a feat.

Have you noticed there is no talk about where the origin of this started other than in China. We will likely never find out now, other than the eating bats story.


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 2, 2020)

slownsteady said:


> Elon Musk took the instant test, which is not all that accurate. EXPERTS say that if you get a positive on the instant test, you should follow it up with a PCR test, which is more accurate. If Elon would have done that, he wouldn't have had to take the three additional instant tests.



Well, supposedly on the PCR box, it says "This test is not to be used for diagnostic purposes." I have been looking for an image of the box, but I don't think I will find one. 

I also see the inventor of the PCR test.... "Kary Mullis, the inventor of the PCR test who was awarded a Nobel Chemistry Prize, said that by using certain protocols for the PCR test, scientists can come up with results they want — he stated, “…with PCR, if you do it well, you can find almost anything in anybody.”


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## Rusty (Dec 2, 2020)

They tried to get me to sign a DNR last March, even though the heart problem I had was not considered life-threatening.


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 2, 2020)

The CDC morbidity rates for the US is consistent for 2019. With this new virus, this year's stats should be significantly higher than last year's. I'm not saying this is not a bad virus, it is, but why have the total deaths not spiked?


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 2, 2020)

Rusty said:


> They tried to get me to sign a DNR last March, even though the heart problem I had was not considered life-threatening.



Who is they? Surely not a "Doctor"??

Have you looked into other ways to support your Heart? I have cardiac issues, drink Cayenne for it..









						Cayenne Pepper Medicinal Use and Health Benefits
					

If you master only one herb in your life, master cayenne pepper.  Many herbalists believe that Cayenne is the most useful and valuable herb in the herb kingdom,  not only for the entire digestive system, but also for the heart and circulatory system.




					www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com


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## Rusty (Dec 3, 2020)

I  take one pill a day and can whatever I want.


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## havasu (Dec 3, 2020)

People talk of others not wearing a masks in California,  I have not seen one person violating the mandatory mask order. So why are our numbers spiking? Even Fauci himself said mask wearing, unless a true respirator type mask, or a N95 mask, is a waste of money since the virus is 3 microns but the mask will only stop up to 10 microns?

And one gripe I have is the California elitists say no singing in church, but masks are optional for protesters? 

Seems there are lots of sheeples and all I hear is a bunch of baa's.


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## slownsteady (Dec 3, 2020)

A slight twist on the discussion: I read a short story about thirty years ago that has stuck with me all this time. It's called The Screwfly Solution, and it's about a "virus". Back at the beginning of this mess, I had to find it and read it again. I recommend it to everyone. It has nothing to do with Covid and it won't help this thread or any other, but it's a damn good read for this time. I found it for free here:





__





						THE SCREWFLY SOLUTION-PAGE 1
					





					lexal.net
				




It's not a long read.


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 3, 2020)

havasu said:


> People talk of others not wearing a masks in California,  I have not seen one person violating the mandatory mask order. So why are our numbers spiking? Even Fauci himself said mask wearing, unless a true respirator type mask, or a N95 mask, is a waste of money since the virus is 3 microns but the mask will only stop up to 10 microns?
> 
> And one gripe I have is the California elitists say no singing in church, but masks are optional for protesters?
> 
> Seems there are lots of sheeples and all I hear is a bunch of baa's.



I see disagreements about the exact size, but it's much smaller than 3 microns. The images I see from various sources are .6 to .1

The only argument that makes half sense is proper masks stop or slow the spread from infected people. 

Regardless, a Bandana or "face wrap" or face shield is akin to putting up a chain link fence to stop mosquitoes. 





__





						size of corona virus at DuckDuckGo
					

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.




					duckduckgo.com


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## Flyover (Dec 3, 2020)

Does the virus fly around by itself, or attached to vapor droplets on your breath? Maybe both? Because those vapor droplets change in size: they're larger when they first exit your nose and mouth, but break apart and get smaller as they fly through the air. That's the point of the masks (the surgical masks etc.): they trap most of those large vapor droplets leaving your respiratory system.

Also, I'm pretty sure there aren't any consumer-grade face masks you can get that are 100% guaranteed to stop the virus, and nobody is claiming there are. Instead, it's an aggregate effect, where the mask reduces the amount of virus ("viral load" I think they call this?) leaving your body by some percentage, and if everyone does that then the effect is scaled up so there are way fewer droplets with the virus in them floating around out in the air for people to breathe in. (And note: except for N95 masks, the focus is on reducing the amount virus spreading to others when you exhale, rather than keeping you from inhaling it.)

Some amount of virus is still going to get breathed in, and some percentage of the time will produce positive COVID cases, and some percentage of those will be symptomatic, and some percentage of those will result in hospitalizations. If there are too many hospitalizations in too short a timespan then the healthcare system gets overwhelmed and people die.

This is just my layman's understanding of things and might be wrong.


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## Rusty (Dec 3, 2020)

femgroup said:


> You have a point, but you have to believe that systems and approaches to research have changed since (in the case of Thalidomide) 1950. Celebrex remains on the market with SERIOUS guidance as to dosage. As for Zantac, it was taken off the market because of "concerns that the medication may contain a cancer-causing chemical that's also been detected in certain blood pressure medications." There are capable alternatives to Zantac, such as Nexium and Prevacid.  My point is that none of *those* issues should affect the usage of this vaccine, in the sense that it's not a daily drug, it's a one-time shot and prevent mechanism.
> 
> It still may be a problem, but in my opinion, not in the same way as those you cited. My understanding is that health care workers, and first responders are to receive the first batch. As far as I'm concerned, if that roll out is successful, I'll be trying to jostle to the front of the line.


I wish you luck. The HPV vaccine has only been out a few years and has a long list of side effects. These are the recognized side effects.


Blood clots.
Seizures.
Guillain-Barré syndrome.
Chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy.
Mylgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome.
Death.


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## Rusty (Dec 3, 2020)

And don't forget the shingles vaccine. A common side effect is shingles.


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 3, 2020)

femgroup said:


> Both of my daughters got the HPV shot. Never heard of those side effects you listed when we made our decision, and a quick Google search (just now) didn't illuminate it either. If the first responders respond well, I'm going in.



Google scrubs everything to their liking. If what you're looking for sways 2 degrees off their chosen mainstream path, you aren't allowed to see it.

Here is a real source for anything in the med field.






						Vaccination: HPV (Gardasil)
					

This topic contains 13 study abstracts on Vaccination: HPV (Gardisil) indicating "it may negatively impact" Vaccine-induced Toxicity, Human Papillomavirus (HPV), and Demyelinating Diseases




					www.greenmedinfo.com


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## Flyover (Dec 3, 2020)

My understanding about Google is they try to predict what they think you want to see and show you that. How do they know what you want to see? They track everything you do as best they can. If you have a gmail address, watch Youtube, have an Android phone, use any other Google devices around your home, etc. then you've probably shown Google a whole lot about your life and your preferences.

Google does this because leveraging that information is how they make money. If Starbucks and Chick-Fil-A both come to Google and say "We'll give you $X if you make our links show up in search results of people who are likely to buy our products", Google can say "Sure, here's user A who is a latte-sipping Prius-driver, so he gets the Starbucks link. Here is user B who is a Folgers-smacking F150-driver, he gets the Chick-Fil-A link."

If Google started showing the Folgers/F-150 guy the ad for Starbucks, then the Starbucks people would go to Google and say "We're not seeing the clicks you promised! We're not paying you $X to show our link to people who aren't our target demographic" and Google would lose money.

This isn't to say you should trust Google or their search results (personally I only ever use DuckDuckGo because I like to remind myself that privacy is important), and it's true sometimes they moderate specific results if they're worried about perpetuating certain things that run contrary to their leftwing politics (there was an example about Michelle Obama being compared to a gorilla once or something like that), but you can't exactly say Google scrubs everything to their liking. The case of what side effects certain drugs have doesn't seem clear cut enough to be explained by politics anyway. Probably you're seeing sources based on your other activity.

Once again, that is my layman's understanding and might be wrong.


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 4, 2020)

Well, some in the government are trying to get rid of Section 230 which protects Big Tech. The Left and Right are owned by Pharma, but Duckduckgo doesn't scrub the search "HPV side effects". Regardless though, my go to search for all medical topics is Green Med Info because they don't publish if there isn't scientific studies backing up the article.

As far as Google, I saw a video a long time ago where a guy took his battery and sim card out of his phone and drove around town on a planned route, then when he got back he hooked his phone up to a computer, and it knew everywhere he had gone. Facebook is the same. I don't use it, but the app is on my phone and I can't remove it. 

I leave it home because it's known that they track everywhere you go. They probably think I'm a perfect obedient Covid slave!!


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## Flyover (Dec 4, 2020)

@femgroup

Let me clarify. The whole story, if I'm remembering it right (and I might not be) was that there were some internet trolls who wanted to teach Google a lesson, or maybe just troll the public, so they orchestrated a campaign to upload a bunch of pictures of gorillas with alt-text that said "Michelle Obama", so that Google would return pictures of gorillas when people searched for Michelle Obama.

Google picked up on this and decided to intervene by overriding that particular search result by manually adjusting their algorithm, which they normally wouldn't do. But, this was not without some trepidation and debate over whether that was the right move, and some people (maybe external to Google?) noted that there were political implications since Google was coming to the defense of a left-wing public figure, plus there were racial implications and so on. They asked "Would Google have done the same for a white right-wing public figure?"

I personally am not sure, and I kinda think they wouldn't because there's a philosophy of "white people already have it good so they don't need any protection" that's unfortunately common among some parts of the political Left, and I'm pretty sure it's common on the Google campus too.

But another point to make clear is this was an edge case and not SOP.


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## havasu (Dec 4, 2020)

I've been taking Celebrex for 12 years. This post has caused me concern and I have quit taking  it. Now, I am in pain from my knee replacements, but I don;t know what is worse, knee pain or a heart attack?


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## slownsteady (Dec 4, 2020)

I would be bringing a medical question like that to a doctor, not a bunch of DIYers. If you don't have faith in your doctor's knowledge, you may have the wrong doctor.


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## havasu (Dec 4, 2020)

Bbuttt, I thought you guys were experts? 

I trust Rusty 100%. Someone that old must have extraordinary knowledge!


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 4, 2020)

havasu said:


> I've been taking Celebrex for 12 years. This post has caused me concern and I have quit taking  it. Now, I am in pain from my knee replacements, but I don;t know what is worse, knee pain or a heart attack?



Have you tried DMSO or Arnica gel? I could write a long story about DMSO, but will keep it simple...

Blew out knees in HS/Military, Boss said his Navy Teams used DMSO, I did circa 1998, no real problems to this day. 

Both my knees pop, and I will blow them out occasionally, basically ripping either the ACL or MCL a little (Never diagnosed). Within a day, they are fine, and I haven't re-applied DMSO in probably 10 years. 

They use it on Race Horses, and it says right on the bottle "not for human use" HA! Don't worry about that at all.

Here is a search that might have more info.. As far as NSAID's, they are all very Russian Roulette like. 






						GreenMedInfo Search
					






					www.greenmedinfo.com


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## Rusty (Dec 4, 2020)

havasu said:


> I've been taking Celebrex for 12 years. This post has caused me concern and I have quit taking  it. Now, I am in pain from my knee replacements, but I don;t know what is worse, knee pain or a heart attack?


Isn't pot legal in Kommiefornia?


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## havasu (Dec 4, 2020)

Yeah, DMSO gave me garlic breath but had no effect on my pain. I tried CBD OILS, got an instant headache, didn't work. Pot, we outlawed it in my city and won't go there.


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 4, 2020)

havasu said:


> Yeah, DMSO gave me garlic breath but had no effect on my pain. I tried CBD OILS, got an instant headache, didn't work. Pot, we outlawed it in my city and won't go there.


Well, if you have to take Celebrex, I would strengthen the circulatory system with Cayenne Tea every day, and other cardio protective herbs, so if you do have a Heart Attack, the chance for damage is lessened. I would go further with complete blood cleansing with Burdock Root as well to protect against a Stroke.

I would also talk to a Naturopath because they can tell you more based on any other drugs you take along with interactions and all that fun stuff.

Are you against Weed because you're a former LEO? My Brother has a shattered ankle and found a strain that takes all the pain away after 20 plus years being out of luck, and trying every boot made. He doesn't smoke, and it doesn't make him high. Just an edible. He can also drive fine.


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## havasu (Dec 4, 2020)

Some really great comments on this thread. As far as me, my old profession as ND marijuana, sure, I've had fun in my hay day, but never liked pot. Worse yet, is the potency of pot these days. Good lord, some is worse than the strongest drugs of the past. Nope, pot makes me feel lazy, ugly and worthless.


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## Flyover (Dec 4, 2020)

Well, we got on a tangent about Google because someone made a claim about Google scrubbing results for political reasons and therefore not being a trustworthy place to look up information about medicine. I felt the need to try and set the record straight. I don't really have a "side" I'm on so I try to represent everything evenly and that took us down a second tangent that was political. So, going down the rabbit hole is probably my fault.

This virus -- or specifically, the vaccine for it we expect to see later next year -- has made me realize I am very inconsistent and probably have no guiding principles on when I do and do not trust authorities to tell me what is safe.


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 5, 2020)

havasu said:


> Some really great comments on this thread. As far as me, my old profession as ND marijuana, sure, I've had fun in my hay day, but never liked pot. Worse yet, is the potency of pot these days. Good lord, some is worse than the strongest drugs of the past. Nope, pot makes me feel lazy, ugly and worthless.



Well, right. The Weed these days is sprayed with massive amounts of chemicals. I have never been much into it, but I do know the difference now from High School. In my Brother's case, the grower is inside, no chemicals, etc., and the dispensary follows those rules I guess. 

Now, just opened this email about knee pain... Turmeric, Ginger and Black Pepper. Maybe that is why I don't have much knee pain. I have used all 3 in cooking for 2 decades or so I guess. Maybe my situation has nothing to do with DMSO. 

I Hyperextended my knee this summer trying to kick a soccer ball, and was planted on the ground in intense pain. I had to crawl 50 yards into the house and sit around, unable to work, using a chair as a walker.. That lasted a day, and I was back to normal action the next evening, able to walk. 

I would say maybe figure out a recipe you like and try it for a while.






						Three-Spice Combo Improves Chronic Knee Osteoarthritis
					

Turmeric extract, when combined with gingerols in ginger and piperine in black pepper, shows promise for addressing osteoarthritis, with results similar to those  achieved by a common anti-inflammatory medication




					www.greenmedinfo.com


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## 68bucks (Dec 5, 2020)

QUOTE="Spicoli43, post: 255272, member: 56609"]
Well, some in the government are trying to get rid of Section 230 which protects Big Tech. The Left and Right are owned by Pharma, but Duckduckgo doesn't scrub the search "HPV side effects". Regardless though, my go to search for all medical topics is Green Med Info because they don't publish if there isn't scientific studies backing up the article.

As far as Google, I saw a video a long time ago where a guy took his battery and sim card out of his phone and drove around town on a planned route, then when he got back he hooked his phone up to a computer, and it knew everywhere he had gone. Facebook is the same. I don't use it, but the app is on my phone and I can't remove it.

I leave it home because it's known that they track everywhere you go. They probably think I'm a perfect obedient Covid slave!![/QUOTE]
I would like to see a link to anything demonstrating that a cell phone can be tracked without any power source, I say no way. Also regarding section 230 that has had the right up in arms. Imo those companies are no different than the hundreds of radio stations that support the right so if they try to legislate away the freedom of speech of some tech companies, which are private companies, then they will have to similarly regulate a lot of other sources. Opens a whole can of worms if you ask me, not to mention ignoring the 1st amendment. BTW I do not have an account on any social media platform so I don't have a horse in the race.


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## Rusty (Dec 5, 2020)

68bucks said:


> QUOTE="Spicoli43, post: 255272, member: 56609"]
> Well, some in the government are trying to get rid of Section 230 which protects Big Tech. The Left and Right are owned by Pharma, but Duckduckgo doesn't scrub the search "HPV side effects". Regardless though, my go to search for all medical topics is Green Med Info because they don't publish if there isn't scientific studies backing up the article.
> 
> As far as Google, I saw a video a long time ago where a guy took his battery and sim card out of his phone and drove around town on a planned route, then when he got back he hooked his phone up to a computer, and it knew everywhere he had gone. Facebook is the same. I don't use it, but the app is on my phone and I can't remove it.
> ...


I would like to see a link to anything demonstrating that a cell phone can be tracked without any power source, I say no way. Also regarding section 230 that has had the right up in arms. Imo those companies are no different than the hundreds of radio stations that support the right so if they try to legislate away the freedom of speech of some tech companies, which are private companies, then they will have to similarly regulate a lot of other sources. Opens a whole can of worms if you ask me, not to mention ignoring the 1st amendment. BTW I do not have an account on any social media platform so I don't have a horse in the race.
[/QUOTE]
The newer cars have a GPS they can read too.


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## Flyover (Dec 5, 2020)

Smartphones have small reserve batteries, or reserve a part of the normal battery, ostensibly to keep stuff like the clock going if your phone dies, but have been known to keep other functions going as well, at least enough to enable some basic tracking. Ed Snowden talked about this in his first interview with Joe Rogan. 

(The Daily Mail is garbage like all other journalism, but the basic bulleted facts at the top of the article are probably true: Apple can track you even AFTER your iPhone battery dies)

I believe older flip phones like the one I use do not have this feature. If I remove my battery and SIM card I am truly off the radar. Just another good reason to downgrade!


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 5, 2020)

Rusty said:


> I would like to see a link to anything demonstrating that a cell phone can be tracked without any power source, I say no way. Also regarding section 230 that has had the right up in arms. Imo those companies are no different than the hundreds of radio stations that support the right so if they try to legislate away the freedom of speech of some tech companies, which are private companies, then they will have to similarly regulate a lot of other sources. Opens a whole can of worms if you ask me, not to mention ignoring the 1st amendment. BTW I do not have an account on any social media platform so I don't have a horse in the race.


The newer cars have a GPS they can read too.
[/QUOTE]

Well, there is tracking chips in the batteries, but I remember he took the battery out. 

As far as section 230, what are you talking about in terms of freedom of speech for tech companies? 

I'm talking about them blocking freedom of speech. Why should they be allowed to censor speech to their liking, such as twitter blocking the New York Post talking about the true story of Hunter Biden and his dealings with the Ukrainian company Burisma and Joe Biden threatening withholding aid if the prosecutor in Hunter's case wasn't fired?

If you are a Leftist organization such as Antifa, talking about burning down city blocks, they won't censor you.


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## Flyover (Dec 5, 2020)

I know nothing about section 230 but I don't see how Facebook/Twitter/Google have any obligation to be fair or permit speech. They're private companies. There's debate over whether their services amount to "public platforms" but it's astounding to me that anyone takes those ideas seriously. Imagine going to the hardware store barefoot and saying they're violating your rights by asking you to put on shoes. Or if someone came on here calling other people names or spamming erection pills and then saying his rights were violated when he got banned.

What the tech companies should not do, however, is CLAIM they are being absolutely fair when they aren't. That is false advertising, potentially fraud in some cases. Being absolutely fair, and still providing any kind of decent/coherent experience, is probably impossible anyway because of all the edge cases and judgment calls, even if the companies were run by space aliens without any skin in the game.

(Sorry again for off-topic.)


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## Rusty (Dec 5, 2020)

Facebook makes no sense. I tried to share a post about a food giveaway for children. They said it "violated community standards".


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 5, 2020)

Flyover said:


> I know nothing about section 230 but I don't see how Facebook/Twitter/Google have any obligation to be fair or permit speech. They're private companies. There's debate over whether their services amount to "public platforms" but it's astounding to me that anyone takes those ideas seriously. Imagine going to the hardware store barefoot and saying they're violating your rights by asking you to put on shoes. Or if someone came on here calling other people names or spamming erection pills and then saying his rights were violated when he got banned.
> 
> What the tech companies should not do, however, is CLAIM they are being absolutely fair when they aren't. That is false advertising, potentially fraud in some cases. Being absolutely fair, and still providing any kind of decent/coherent experience, is probably impossible anyway because of all the edge cases and judgment calls, even if the companies were run by space aliens without any skin in the game.
> 
> (Sorry again for off-topic.)



Fakebook deleted a post by the President that said the Flu can be deadlier than Covid, saying it was false and against their health "policies". The problem is it's 100% accurate. Fakebook and Tweeter and Google all pick and choose what they approve to be seen, much like every Leftist "news" website there is. 

It's not the same as people showing up here and breaking the rules, getting banned. Anything said here isn't broadcast to the whole world. The question on 230 is when do these fake sites become publishers, which removes their protections. There is the argument that censoring true facts like the President's makes them a publisher. I agree.


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 5, 2020)

bud16415 said:


> in the state of Virginia



I wouldn't have paid that BS ticket, and would have never gone back to that backward state. There's really nothing worth going there for. When I lived there, cops would run speed traps from their own driveways. That was hickville though, nothing better to do. The coast is probably different.


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## Rusty (Dec 5, 2020)

A few years back, I was on a deserted road coming back from a job about 60 miles from  home. From nowhere a trooper pulled me over and after checking all the lights, he wrote me a ticket for 56 in a 55. $80.00. I paid it because I was booked for weeks ahead and it would have cost me several hundred in money for missing a job. Looked like he was just out of the academy. I don't understand a judge not just throwing a bogus ticket out.


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 5, 2020)

Rusty said:


> A few years back, I was on a deserted road coming back from a job about 60 miles from  home. From nowhere a trooper pulled me over and after checking all the lights, he wrote me a ticket for 56 in a 55. $80.00. I paid it because I was booked for weeks ahead and it would have cost me several hundred in money for missing a job. Looked like he was just out of the academy. I don't understand a judge not just throwing a bogus ticket out.



I have gotten one of those 1 overs on a Navy Base. That doesn't make sense because it's proven that both speedometers and radar / laser can be off by more than that. They don't play at all on base though, and this was before all our rights were removed.


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## slownsteady (Dec 5, 2020)

Spicoli43 said:


> bout the true story of Hunter Biden and his dealings with the Ukrainian company Burisma





Spicoli43 said:


> the argument that censoring true facts



Just putting the word true in the sentence doesn't mean that it actually is. Just sayin'


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## Flyover (Dec 5, 2020)

Maybe a court will decide otherwise but as far as I can tell Facebook/Twitter/etc. are private companies running private websites; they are not public spaces or utilities or publishers, even if they are very popular. They have the right to ban people for saying the sky is blue if they want to.

What I think they should not be allowed to do is claim that they are fair or impartial or whatever. By the same token I don't think any news outlet should be allowed to claim that either.

And no, stuff on Facebook isn't broadcast to the world; you have to also be on Facebook to have it broadcast to you. Thank goodness for that because I'm not on Facebook or Twitter or any of those social media sites and so I don't see the dumb things people write there. My life is much better for it. (No social media, no smartphone...I should write a book and call it "How to achieve enlightenment in the 21st century"! If I wasn't so stupid maybe I could get away with it!)


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 5, 2020)

slownsteady said:


> Just putting the word true in the sentence doesn't mean that it actually is. Just sayin'



Huh? 

"The report does not assert that the former vice president pushed for the firing of a Ukrainian prosecutor in order to protect Burisma, a central claim made by President Trump and his allies."

Here's the link for that "claim", and a nice video. 









						Senate Republicans release controversial report on Hunter Biden and Ukraine
					

Democrats dismissed the investigation as "faulty" and rooted in Russian disinformation.




					www.cbsnews.com


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## Rusty (Dec 5, 2020)

Flyover said:


> Maybe a court will decide otherwise but as far as I can tell Facebook/Twitter/etc. are private companies running private websites; they are not public spaces or utilities or publishers, even if they are very popular. They have the right to ban people for saying the sky is blue if they want to.
> 
> What I think they should not be allowed to do is claim that they are fair or impartial or whatever. By the same token I don't think any news outlet should be allowed to claim that either.
> 
> And no, stuff on Facebook isn't broadcast to the world; you have to also be on Facebook to have it broadcast to you. Thank goodness for that because I'm not on Facebook or Twitter or any of those social media sites and so I don't see the dumb things people write there. My life is much better for it. (No social media, no smartphone...I should write a book and call it "How to achieve enlightenment in the 21st century"! If I wasn't so stupid maybe I could get away with it!)


I'm on Facebook because it allows me to stay in touch with people from my 1966 graduating class. I can even talk to one who .lives in Thailand.


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## Flyover (Dec 5, 2020)

@Rusty: Facebook "allows" you to stay in touch with them but that doesn't mean you're otherwise disallowed. There are lots of other ways to stay in touch, and that's my point. Facebook is not a public utility and people can easily live without it.



Rusty said:


> I do not have an account on any social media platform so I don't have a horse in the race.



Hey wait a second...


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## Flyover (Dec 6, 2020)

femgroup said:


> Any elemental understanding of the issues in Ukraine, compels a journalistic operation to report on the facts.



Apologies in advance; this is kind of a hobby horse of mine.

Journalism is a show put on by people trained in stuff like English Lit and Theater Studies, where they write and talk in ways meant to make them sound like authorities on what is true and important. They have no claim to any real authority on anything besides maybe "how to turn around a story on a deadline".

The show they put on, which we know as The News, is still just a show and just like The Simpsons or Law & Order it is beholden only to whatever rules its creators impose on themselves, and whatever constraints are placed on it by the necessity to sell ad space. Journalism could from this day forth only cover stories about slime molds and two-legged cats and it would not change anything fundamental about what journalism is or what role it fills in our society.

If something is actually critical for you to know about, and/or is some kind of information you can use or take action on, you will hear about it from a source upstream from the newspaper office or production studio.


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## bud16415 (Dec 6, 2020)

*I haven’t deleted any off topic posts yet other than my own.*



*Lets keep the topic Covid19 related and if all possible non political please.*



*We are a home improvement forum, and last I checked the bug shows no political preference in who it takes down. There is a fine line to walk when the government is playing such a large role in addressing our health and safety and our economy and mental well being are so tied to the process. It is now affecting almost every aspect of our lives in some way.



I’m asking everyone to look back thru this thread and self moderate their contributions if not clearly related to Covid19.



Covid19 will be past us at some point and the goal here has always been in working together to help others with home repair issues and the other underlying goal is minimize non-related political and social issues.

Thanks in advance.*


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## havasu (Dec 6, 2020)

A dozen post back referred to receiving a speeding ticket for going one MPH over the speed limit. I worked traffic enforcement exclusively for 7 years, and would constantly nail speeders using my Laser Gun going 20-30MPH over the speed limit. I hated to hurt their pocket book, but needed them to understand that going that fast was dangerous, so I would write them instead for going 1-3 MPH over the speed limit. Once they left, they would show others the speeding ticket I wrote, and called me a chicken $#it for writing such a trivial ticket. Many also took me to court saying that all Lasers can me 1 MPH off. I loved going to court, because I explained to the judge that they were actually going 20-30 MPH over the speed limit, but I reduced that speed to only help them. The judge saw my compassion and for wasting his time, he would double or triple the fine to reflect the true violation. I never lost a case in traffic court.

Sorry for derailing the thread, but many times, what you hear is not exactly the truth.


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## Rusty (Dec 6, 2020)

I wasn't speeding this guy was looking for a reason. He checked all my lights first. Then made sure I was wearing a seat belt and then decided I was driving 56 in a 55. I don't think I was even driving 55. Just like the one who stopped me recently because my turn signal was out. Then wrote me a ticket for no seat belt. We don't have a primary seat belt law. And after he drove off, we checked. Nothing wrong with the turn signals. According to a friend who worked in the area, he wrote 11 tickets in 30 minutes. My brother was a cop here for 30 years. He says they do have a quota, and a list of certain people they cannot ticket.


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## havasu (Dec 6, 2020)

Quotas are illegal in all 50 states. They can recommend, suggest, or even give you an average evaluation, but if they demand a quota, you can sue for hundreds of thousands. As far as that cite, if true, would get that cop lambasted. In the academy, 5mph over justifies a stop, but no cite. 10 mph over, probably cite, but leaves room for discretion. 15 over. Should cite.


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## slownsteady (Dec 6, 2020)

I had considered starting a political thread a couple months before the election. I mean, where else can you have a meaningful conversation with individuals across the country - actually all North America - without venturing into all the edges of the internet? I decided against it because we had one about four years ago, and some bitter words passed and we lost a few good and helpful voices from the main reason we all came to this site in the first place -to share DIY knowledge.

So.....BEFORE IT HAPPENS.... I caution everyone to keep the gloves on. Be civil and listen (read) carefully before you speak (write). If you feel yourself getting hot, take a break before going forward.

Thank you.


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## slownsteady (Dec 6, 2020)

The problem with media...be it Mainstream or not....is that they have forgotten to draw the line between news and opinion. The networks probably are holding the line best. The Cable newshows flow effortlessly between the two and before you know it, you are listening to their particular point of view. Almost any video clip can be cut at the right places to support the POV of the producers.


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## slownsteady (Dec 7, 2020)

Okay. .......Moving forward...............


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## slownsteady (Dec 8, 2020)

The surprising thing after all these decades of slanted news is that people are still gullible.


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## Flyover (Dec 9, 2020)

I don't think it's surprising. The only thing journalists are really experts at is passing themselves off as authorities on what's true and important, at least to the people who are inclined to listen to them. You would expect that after several hundred years they've gotten pretty good at it.

There's no such thing as "non-slanted news" and never has been. It's impossible even in theory.


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## Rusty (Dec 9, 2020)

I don't remember Cronkite ever spinning things.


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## Flyover (Dec 9, 2020)

That's because he did it in a calm voice with his hair neatly combed. And there weren't a million commentators on other networks/talk radio/the internet pointing out how he was spinning things.

Walter Cronkite used his time in college to act in plays, then he dropped out and became a journalist. Whatever he had to say about important issues of his day should be considered with that in mind.


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 9, 2020)

I believe all " News Casters" are not journalist but merely spokespeople putting out the narrative of the source you're watching or listening to. It's hard to get real "truths or facts", seems there's always an agenda. News sources relish in the position of spinning events to fit their platform. Fair and balanced is a pipe dream it seems.


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## Flyover (Dec 9, 2020)

I mean, think about it. Let's say you were tasked with writing a news report with zero bias. How would you do it? It isn't possible.

And the more ways you take bias out of your report (you'll never get to zero but you can get it down pretty low), the less it will look like a news report and instead start to look like a table of numbers or something, and that is not going to sell any ads.


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 9, 2020)

Journalism requires somone to at least investigate a situation, not just report the bias of the reporter. There are two sides to an issue. Propagating one side does not make a story, just an narrative.


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## Rusty (Dec 9, 2020)

UK regulators have issued a warning that people who have a history of "significant" allergic reactions should not currently receive the Pfizer/BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine after two NHS staff members who had the jab suffered allergic reactions.
The workers were given the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine on Tuesday - the first day of the NHS mass vaccination programme - and then suffered an allergic reaction.
The NHS in England said all trusts involved with the vaccination programme had been informed.
The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) has given precautionary advice to NHS trusts that anyone who has a history of "significant" allergic reactions to medicines, food or vaccines should not receive the vaccine.


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## Flyover (Dec 9, 2020)

oldognewtrick said:


> Journalism requires somone to at least investigate a situation, not just report the bias of the reporter. There are two sides to an issue. Propagating one side does not make a story, just an narrative.



I want to expand on this but I remember Bud did ask us to stick to the topic of Covid 19 and I don't want to be a pain in his neck (more than I probably already have been!), so I'm going to copy the quote and reply over on my "About the news" thread.


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## RobinSm89 (Dec 29, 2020)

I don't like it when people start talking about the fact that this virus is not as scary as the flu, etc. God, just study the issue scientifically, and not just read some incomplete facts.


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## Rusty (Dec 29, 2020)

There are starting to be verified reports about adverse reactions to the vaccine.


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## 68bucks (Dec 29, 2020)

I read about the reactions people have had and most seem minimal, similar to other vaccinations. Headache was a common one, some cases of nausea, sore arms, fatigue was mentioned, sort of a foggy feeling sometimes. All those were gone is a day or two. The only real issue I have read were a few severe allergic reactions. I'm more concerned about long term which we of course won't know for a while. None the less when I can get it I will.


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## Rusty (Dec 29, 2020)

Several people have ended up in the ICU after the shot. Besides, the FDA has a spotty record when it comes to approvals. Too many like thalidomide, vioxx and zantac that seemed to be safe short term, but were deadly after use.
I am not an anti-vaxxer. I get a flu shot yearly although they are only somewhat successful and I have had a pneumonia shot.


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## 68bucks (Dec 29, 2020)

The one thing that makes me a little bit nervous is this was developed and approved side stepping many of the normal steps or time frames. That can't help an agency do any better at evaluating a drug. This is a new technology which could be good, could be bad. So we will see. As I said I'll be in line. Sick of not doing anything so if I can help get to herd immunity I'll chip in.


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 30, 2020)

I'll never get egg or insect based vaccines again or take drugs due to complications. That reasoning was established well before Covid. Enter in the fact that the "leaders" aren't getting the actual vaccine. 

Is it a common side effect to have pain in the right arm when the vaccine is received in the left arm? 

Or is that just a side effect from a B-12 shot?

Which is it, Fake Fraud Fauci?


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## Flyover (Dec 30, 2020)

There are always adverse reactions to any vaccine. The question is how serious and how common the reactions are.


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## Trailrider (Dec 30, 2020)

I have gone back to the beginning of this thread and read through the posts. So I decided to share my own experience.

First, I am 58, retired from banking and live in KY. I have never had any health issues. I eat well and I am fit and active since I live on a farm and do all my home repairs  I have been wearing a mask and staying home unless necessary. I also don’t do business anywhere they don’t enforce the mask policy....I just go elsewhere. My sister had to go to an in person doctor appointment in early Nov. While there, during a conversation her doctor told her that “people lie all the time“ during the screening before being admitted into the office. They have been sick, around sick people, exposed etc. Two days after the appointment my sister was sick. The next day I was sick. A day later I was so sick I couldn’t even take care of myself. Both of us were too sick to function. And I’m a farm girl so That says a lot. I managed to feed and water my cats and dogs and give my cat insulin. But there were times I considered crawling to the bathroom.

For the first two weeks I had a fever around 102 to 103. Everyday for two weeks. Terrible diarrhea if I ate or drank anything. Exhaustion, hallucinations, nausea and coughing. After two weeks, my sister who was still very sick called an ambulance for me. I had a fever of 102.9 and couldn’t stay awake or speak coherently. I was in ICU that day and a regular covid ward for 6 more days. I thank GOD I was in the hospital. I also got pneumonia and couldn’t kick the diarrhea. But with three doses of Remdesevir, steroids twice a day, antibiotics, fluids, several shots each day of heparin and everything else the nurses brought me back. I know I was dying. No one told me that.....but I know it.( The nurses even came in and prayed over/with me.) I lost 20 pounds in three weeks. I could barely walk during the days following my stay.

My sister and I are both recovered now and I am thankful. Also thankful I have health insurance. Since my hospital bill was over $30,000. Glad I’m paying only a portion! 

Everyone deserves their own opinion. I have Never had a reaction to a vaccine ...so I will get the vaccine when it is available to me. Probably around the time my immunity wears off. I know there is always a risk. I will continue to only do business where the mask policy is enforced. And I will respect others by keeping my distance and wearing a mask. That is my story.


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## zannej (Dec 31, 2020)

Trailrider, that sounds awful but I'm glad you survived.

I am getting tested tomorrow (had to make an appointment). Got exposed at the tire shop while getting my new tires put on. Thus far it's mostly flu-like stuff. Headache, nausea, diarrhea, mild cough, stuffy/runny nose, body aches, and stomach just being sour. I've felt a lot sicker. I think a year or two ago I had the bad respiratory symptoms where I couldn't stop coughing and started hallucinating and was confused. I'm hoping to never get that sick again.


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## zannej (Dec 31, 2020)

I'm now having new symptoms of being lightheaded off and on and arrhythmia (I have congenital heart defects so I've always had heart murmur and I get arrhythmia from time to time). It's more agitating than anything else. Just a few hours until I get tested.


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 31, 2020)

zannej said:


> I'm now having new symptoms of being lightheaded off and on and arrhythmia (I have congenital heart defects so I've always had heart murmur and I get arrhythmia from time to time). It's more agitating than anything else. Just a few hours until I get tested.



Good Luck zannej, but I don't think you need a test. How much Vitamin C and D do you take? I would take a lot of C and lookup how much D and Zinc to take.


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 31, 2020)

femgroup said:


> You said: "Which is it, Fake Fraud Fauci? "
> 
> I say: Geez.



He has exposed how much of a Fraud he is over this entire year. It's so obvious I shouldn't even have to type this. It's so obvious that it transcends politics. The media appointed him as King of the operation, and that went straight to his head. Unfortunately, there isn't to much activity up there.


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## slownsteady (Dec 31, 2020)

Spicoli43 said:


> It's so obvious I shouldn't even have to type this.


So don't.


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## Trailrider (Dec 31, 2020)

zannej said:


> Trailrider, that sounds awful but I'm glad you survived.
> 
> I am getting tested tomorrow (had to make an appointment). Got exposed at the tire shop while getting my new tires put on. Thus far it's mostly flu-like stuff. Headache, nausea, diarrhea, mild cough, stuffy/runny nose, body aches, and stomach just being sour. I've felt a lot sicker. I think a year or two ago I had the bad respiratory symptoms where I couldn't stop coughing and started hallucinating and was confused. I'm hoping to never get that sick again.


Best wishes for a quick recovery. I do hope you have anything but covid. Please let us know how it goes.


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## Trailrider (Dec 31, 2020)

femgroup said:


> You said: "Which is it, Fake Fraud Fauci? "
> 
> I say: Geez.


I had a sticker that said “Follow scientists, not morons.”


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## Trailrider (Dec 31, 2020)

Spicoli43 said:


> Good Luck zannej, but I don't think you need a test. How much Vitamin C and D do you take? I would take a lot of C and lookup how much D and Zinc to take.


I would have the test. If you happen to get sicker very fast and need an ambulance, you can tell them if you have it. And of course you would tell them about your heart issue. You might get more serious treatment and faster.


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## bud16415 (Dec 31, 2020)

@zannej Good luck and we are all hoping for a speedy recovery for you.


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 31, 2020)

Trailrider said:


> I had a sticker that said “Follow scientists, not morons.”



Do you also have a sticker that says "I love Bill Nye the Mechanical Engineer"?


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## zannej (Dec 31, 2020)

Good news. Just got back from the doctor's office. Covid test was negative but I had a fever & my sinuses were inflamed. Seems to be a sinus infection so I've been put on prednisone and antibiotics for 2 weeks. I was told that just in case it was a false negative I should still continue to distance myself, wear a mask, and wash my hands frequently until my symptoms are gone.
Nasal swab wasn't so bad but it made my left eye drip & made the inside of my nostrils itch for about a minute afterward. Probably wouldn't have been as annoying if I didn't have inflammation in my sinuses. 
Doctor told me to get plenty of rest and fluids.


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 31, 2020)

femgroup said:


> "He has exposed how much of a Fraud he is over this entire year "
> 
> I've paid attention like most folks, but I missed the whole deal about him 'exposing his fraud'. Please post your facts, and none of that childlike conspiracy nonsense, please. Oh, and I'm not interested on somebody's take on the media, the left, the right, or any of that.
> 
> Just the facts.



I'm actually content with you not knowing.


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## havasu (Dec 31, 2020)

My son has the "Vid". He lost sense of taste and smell, and had a sore throat for a day. He said it was just like the flu to him. He refused to get tested to prove this lock down is pure BS. He is on his way to Glamis to ride his quad thru the sand dunes.


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 31, 2020)

zannej said:


> Good news. Just got back from the doctor's office. Covid test was negative but I had a fever & my sinuses were inflamed. Seems to be a sinus infection so I've been put on prednisone and antibiotics for 2 weeks. I was told that just in case it was a false negative I should still continue to distance myself, wear a mask, and wash my hands frequently until my symptoms are gone.
> Nasal swab wasn't so bad but it made my left eye drip & made the inside of my nostrils itch for about a minute afterward. Probably wouldn't have been as annoying if I didn't have inflammation in my sinuses.
> Doctor told me to get plenty of rest and fluids.



GOOD! I had that early on in Covid where half my head was stuffed up. I call it my Covid without knowing. I inhaled enough Vitamin C to kill it off and was normal the next day.


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 31, 2020)

Trailrider said:


> I had a sticker that said “Follow scientists, not morons.”


But, which of the ," scientists" are we suppose to follow? Seems they don't agree.


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## Spicoli43 (Dec 31, 2020)

femgroup said:


> After reading your post, you appear to be content with not knowing a whole lot YOURSELF (either that, or you just didn't have the facts to support your statements. Same difference.).


Okay.


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## Trailrider (Jan 1, 2021)

Take care of yourself. Sorry your sick but glad it’s not worse.


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## Flyover (Jan 1, 2021)

oldognewtrick said:


> But, which of the ," scientists" are we suppose to follow? Seems they don't agree.


Yeah, it's strange to me when people talk about science as if it's a set of permanent truths. At most, there is temporarily a general (though almost never absolute) consensus among scientists on very specific facts, at least as borne out from certain experimental conditions. This is good: if scientists all agreed on things, especially on broad statements, they'd be doing their jobs wrong. But of course we can't expect the mass public to understand how the institution of science works any more than we'd expect them to understand the particulars of housing construction codes.

I think the spirit of the sticker is supposed to be something like "I'm not one of those religious people, or one of those conspiracy-oriented people", phrased in a maximally divisive and arrogant way.


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## Flyover (Jan 1, 2021)

One of the strange things about modernity is that everyone has access to, and in some cases is practically force-fed, highly technical information they can't actually digest. Terms like "transmission vector" have come into everyday household use in a population with an average 3rd-grade reading level. This produces a lot of people who think they know what they're talking about, but don't.

I'm not an epidemiologist or infectious disease scientist. I would be wasting my time trying to read epidemiology/infectious disease journals. But my alternative is to trust someone to break down what those journals are saying into language and concepts I can understand, which isn't always possible. Unfortunately for most people this role gets filled by journalists or else by politicians. (I pay attention to neither and advise you don't as well.)


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## slownsteady (Jan 1, 2021)

Well thought out Flyover, and you may have hit the nail on the head (appropriate for houserepairtalk). It explains how a person (even a scientist) can say one thing in February based on what is known, and then have to change course in April when additional facts show themselves. We are all learning about this thing in real time. And if you can't correct yourself when faced with new knowledge, you might as well stick to banging stones together.


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## slownsteady (Jan 1, 2021)

Problem with the media.... ALL media..... is that they have to make noise all the time (fill the airwaves), so they take whatever bit of info they can find and they shout repeatedly until the next bit of info surfaces. Lather, rinse, repeat.


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## zannej (Jan 2, 2021)

I miss the days of Edward R Murrow when it was straight up facts and actual news and not meant to be entertainment to get ratings. It wasn't filled with speculation and opinion. I also miss the Fairness Doctrine.

I have a friend who is a journalist and she said that scientists (at least the ones she talked to) knew a lot more than the media released back in February about the spread of the virus and how to prevent it but they were told they couldn't publish that info. She talked to multiple virologists who were getting info that wasn't being filtered through politics and they knew how bad it was and she felt guilty that her news outlet wouldn't let her publish so she was warning people on social media. Not quite sure why they weren't allowed to publish, but I think it was because what she was being told directly from scientists was contradicting the messaging from the World Health Organization- who was at the time withholding information because they were afraid it would cause panic and that doctors and nurses wouldn't have enough PPE.

I'm still feeling crappy. For the first day my nasal passages were clear-- the scrubber thingies for the test actually cleaned them out so I could breathe better than I'd been breathing in months. But the mucus is back and so is the headache. Generally feeling tired and off-kilter. My balance and coordination aren't great. Mom was mad at my brother today because he was supposed to cook for her but he was too busy playing video games.

Mark, is your son going alone or will someone be with him to make sure he's OK? Even if he wasn't sick, I would hope there would be someone to be able to call for help if he has an accident.


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## Flyover (Jan 2, 2021)

zannej said:


> I miss the days of Edward R Murrow when it was straight up facts and actual news and not meant to be entertainment to get ratings. It wasn't filled with speculation and opinion.


Exactly the myth I think needs to be debunked first:


Flyover said:


> As much as I like to point out the emperor isn't wearing any clothes with respect to what journalism _fundamentally is_, I actually think journalism today is a lot less biased than it used to be. Walter Cronkite, Ed Murrow, etc. were shameless opinionators -- they just knew to deliver their opinions in a very buttoned up way, in a calm tone of voice, a cigarette gracefully balanced in one hand so they took on the air of a professor or a wise old friend. The trick worked, and everybody thought "Wow there's a guy who's really giving it to me straight."


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## 68bucks (Jan 2, 2021)

havasu said:


> My son has the "Vid". He lost sense of taste and smell, and had a sore throat for a day. He said it was just like the flu to him. He refused to get tested to prove this lock down is pure BS. He is on his way to Glamis to ride his quad thru the sand dunes.


If your son didn't hlget the test how do you know he had the "


havasu said:


> My son has the "Vid". He lost sense of taste and smell, and had a sore throat for a day. He said it was just like the flu to him. He refused to get tested to prove this lock down is pure BS. He is on his way to Glamis to ride his quad thru the sand dunes.


Assuming he does have the virus how does not taking a test confirming that prove anything about a lock down? And does feel like screw it, I have it, I really don't care who I give it to? I don't understand why he wouldn't want to lay low a while and get over it instead of spreading it around. Just curious.


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## Fireguy5674 (Jan 2, 2021)

Many people are asymptomatic.  They don't feel bad at all.  They are lucky, but can spread the disease.  If they choose to knowingly do so because it is inconvenient for them to stay at home they are just selfish.  They are the same as those who choose not to wear masks because they are uncomfortable.  

If people would consider the other person instead of only themselves there might not be 360,000 souls 6' under.  It may all be a hoax, but if you look at mortality rates, something is causing a lot of extra people to die.


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## havasu (Jan 2, 2021)

As far as my son, he drove alone, met a deputy who is also on covid lockdown, then drove home alone. He works with a group of 7 deputies, who have all tested positive for the vid, all had the same flu symptoms, for 2 days, and after staying home for 10 days, returned back to work. All are fine.  

Who are the people not wearing the masks? All grocery stores, all hardware stores, all essential facilities have a mask mandates, but people are still contracting this virus. Why is this?


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## Flyover (Jan 2, 2021)

I was just at the auction house today. I would say 1 out of 5 people was wearing their mask down below their nose, some with their top lip showing. Basically a chin diaper at that point. That might be one clue.

Anyway, the masks aren't going to stop the virus 100% of the time, they are going to reduce the likelihood of transmission by some percentage. Especially if combined with distancing (which people at the auction house also were not doing.) We ended up leaving early without one of my items because I decided the risk wasn't worth the 4 dollar item I was having trouble finding.


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## havasu (Jan 2, 2021)

What I am saying is how any mask, short of a respirator or N95 mask will do nothing to stop a 3 micron virus, when they are wearing cloth or typical masks that allow a 10 micron opening?


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## 68bucks (Jan 2, 2021)

havasu said:


> As far as my son, he drove alone, met a deputy who is also on covid lockdown, then drove home alone. He works with a group of 7 deputies, who have all tested positive for the vid, all had the same flu symptoms, for 2 days, and after staying home for 10 days, returned back to work. All are fine.
> 
> Who are the people not wearing the masks? All grocery stores, all hardware stores, all essential facilities have a mask mandates, but people are still contracting this virus. Why is this?


So he was separated from people so I'm good with that. I would consider fishing on a small boat the same deal. The lock downs are sort of dumb because the majority ignore them I think. When you said your son went out riding knowing he was positive I suddenly conjured up a stop to get fuel, a stop to grab a sandwich, hang out with some other guys at the dunes, you know. Unfortunately there are those people, the don't care, don't understand, or think it's all fake. They are small x% that screw it up for the rest of us. They are the reason do most of the dumb laws we have.


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## 68bucks (Jan 2, 2021)

havasu said:


> What I am saying is how any mask, short of a respirator or N95 mask will do nothing to stop a 3 micron virus, when they are wearing cloth or typical masks that allow a 10 micron opening?


You can pass a large number of tiny particles through a filter media with an opening greater than the largest particle and still catch some. Also I believe a virus is commonly attached to an atomized water droplet respired from your lungs. They are larger and will also tend to coalesce on a fiber of mask. So it's not going to catch everything but it's proven to slow spread. Distance is the biggest deal really.


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## Spicoli43 (Jan 2, 2021)

havasu said:


> What I am saying is how any mask, short of a respirator or N95 mask will do nothing to stop a 3 micron virus, when they are wearing cloth or typical masks that allow a 10 micron opening?


I have seen the size of Covid at .06 to .14 microns, which would get past everything besides Lab / Law / Military tech. Normal masks won't block it, and bandanas are flat out idiotic. 

Wearing a "face covering" or a face shield is akin to putting up a chain link fence to stop mosquitos. 


*










						size of corona virus at DuckDuckGo
					

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.




					duckduckgo.com
				



*


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## Flyover (Jan 2, 2021)

@havasu I think The virus attaches to aerosols (water droplets) in your breath. When you exhale, the droplets are larger, and they break up as they travel through the air. The mask catches a large proportion of the droplets as they leave your nose and mouth. Of course if you only cover your mouth then all the droplets leaving your nose still get released unfiltered, along with any viruses riding on them.

I'm surprised you haven't heard this information elsewhere already.


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## tomtheelder2020 (Jan 2, 2021)

Havasu is making what is known as an "argument from personal incredulity." He personally, as a person with no relevant expertise, does not understand why a cloth mask might help, therefore he concludes they likely don't help - regardless of expert opinion. I am not an expert but off the top of my head I can think of ways a 10 micron mask can help. The virus might be only 3 microns but it is expelled in moisture droplets of various sizes. Any droplets bigger than the mask mesh will be blocked. Any fabric is at least somewhat absorbant and will absorb some of the droplets even if they are smaller than the mesh (which is why some fabrics are recommeded for masks and others are not). Masks do not form a absolute seal, therefore much (most? A hole bunch?) of expelled air exits around the edges of the mask. That means that exhalation, instead of a somewhat coherent stream exiting in a single direction, is distributed in multiple directions, more paralell to the persons skin, and at lower velocitry. That means the droplets will stay closer to the person and be less likely to affect someone else. That is why a mask is more important when speaking and why singing near others is considered very high risk,.


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## havasu (Jan 2, 2021)

My job is to create dialog, and to encourage others who would like to offer their personal thoughts regarding this pandemic. You may call it  "argument from personal incredulity", but I call it my personal opinion and just as you have your opinion, I too have an opinion.


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## Flyover (Jan 2, 2021)

I'm just saying, we've been living with the virus and masks and all the arguments about it for a year now. The way masks work, as @tomtheelder2020 just explained, is by now common knowledge, or so I would have thought. I actively avoid social media and ALL journalism, and this knowledge has still penetrated the rock I live under.

What kind of circles do you have to travel in to spend a year and come away with "masks don't work"? Flat-earthers have heard the arguments for why the world is round, but they believe there is a misinformation conspiracy spreading those arguments and that the arguments are lies. Is the same true of those who claim masks don't work?


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## havasu (Jan 2, 2021)

Living outside of Los Angeles, masks are mandated for everyone, but yet our hospitals are overflowing. Ironically, you go into states like Idaho, Utah, Montana, South Dakota, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, etc, and their restaurants are open, masks are optional, and life is going on nearly as it was before covid days. Why is this?

What I am trying to say is that even though I do wear my mask when I leave the house, I also have yet to see anyone not wearing a mask while out in public. So with So Cal mandates, why are we being hit harder than any other state of the union?


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## Spicoli43 (Jan 2, 2021)

havasu said:


> Living outside of Los Angeles, masks are mandated for everyone, but yet our hospitals are overflowing. Ironically, you go into states like Idaho, Utah, Montana, South Dakota, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, etc, and their restaurants are open, masks are optional, and life is going on nearly as it was before covid days. Why is this?
> 
> What I am trying to say is that even though I do wear my mask when I leave the house, I also have yet to see anyone not wearing a mask while out in public. So with So Cal mandates, why are we being hit harder than any other state of the union?



Population density. California is only slightly bigger than Montana, but there is barely a million people here. As far as masks in public, I don't know about restaurants because nobody I know goes to them, but the governor mandated masks in every public building.

People in MT are much more immune to cooties than some places because pre Covid, it was routine to see restaurant cooks wipe the sweat off their foreheads and immediately go back to preparing food.

Hence, I don't know anybody that goes to them.


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## slownsteady (Jan 2, 2021)

If it slows down the spread of the cloud that comes out of a person's mouth, it is helping. 
If it keeps you from forgetting that you need to be an active participant in stopping this thing, then it is helping.


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## zannej (Jan 2, 2021)

Masks are like condoms-- they are not 100% effective and they don't work if not worn properly. A lot of people don't wear their masks properly. As others have mentioned, they have them below the nose, below the mouth, they take them off, they touch the insides, they reach inside to scratch. Then they touch other things and sometimes other people. I've seen maskless people cough on their hands and then touch countertops and products. I've seen people lick their fingers and touch shopping bags at self-checkout. I've seen kids with their masks down picking their noses and then touching things.

Where I live, hardly anyone wears a mask and many of the ones who do wear them don't wear them properly.

In addition to blocking water droplets, masks can sometimes be a deterrent/barricade for mouth/nose touching. I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I'm a subconscious nose-scratcher. I don't notice when I do it but I'm trying to make myself aware. Wearing a mask keeps me from doing it. It also keeps me from touching my mouth. I wear multi-layer masks with filters that have flexible metal bands to make them conform to my face better, they aren't N95s, but they keep my hands off my face and they keep my face warm outside in winter.

My best friends maternal grandfather died of Covid pneumonia yesterday.


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## Flyover (Jan 2, 2021)

I have yet to see a modern house where I live built without insulation. Yet people still have to heat their houses with furnaces in the winter -- they can't just use the radiant heat from their bodies. Insulation must not work I guess.


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## havasu (Jan 2, 2021)

How many here replace their masks daily, let alone using them "one use only" as required?

Regarding density, this is one thing I will agree with you on.


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## Flyover (Jan 2, 2021)

The "one use only" guideline is typically for people with a high probability of being in close contact with others who are sick, like for example healthcare workers. Also, some types of masks can be cleaned and then reused. There's strong evidence that UV light kills the coronavirus, so leaving a used mask out in the sun for a few hours is a pretty good way to disinfect it. At that point it's a question of whether it's sustained enough wear & tear to warrant replacing. (This is my understanding; I could be wrong.)

But again: is here on Houserepairtalk in January 2021 really the first time you're hearing this information??


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## zannej (Jan 3, 2021)

I have re-usable masks that can be washed and they have replacement filters. I take out the filters, wash them on deep clean sanitize mode (my washer has that feature), and replace the filters. I also have multiple masks so I can switch out. A lot of people don't do that. But, some effort is better than no effort at all. Wearing a mask properly is a start. It can hinder direct spray from people talking, coughing, and/or sneezing.

Honestly, if people would wash their hands, cover their noses/mouths when sneezing/coughing, distance, and take some of these measures when they have the flu, we would probably have less spread of the flu.


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## havasu (Jan 4, 2021)




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## Spicoli43 (Jan 4, 2021)

havasu said:


>




In all these months, I have never heard it described as simple as that. Most of the sources try to avoid the obvious. 

As far as being "positive", I would wager that any of us without obvious symptoms could test positive, simply based on fruit testing positive in May, and 
Elon Musk testing positive and negative twice each on the same day in November, meaning the tests are no more accurate now than they were back then.

Nobody knows the death count, but it's not even in the same stratosphere as they claim.


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## zannej (Jan 5, 2021)

So, the Moderna vaccine is now available in my area. Our GP said my mother should get it asap. Trying to find where she can get an appointment. There are 3 options it seems but she needs to choose one. All of the medical personnel at my doctor's office have been vaccinated and have not had problems with it. Some places are still doing the Pfizer vaccine as well.


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## zannej (Jan 5, 2021)

Anyone heard much about the differences between the Pfizer vaccine and the Moderna vaccine? I've read the Moderna one stays good in a broader range of temperatures but I haven't heard anything consistent about side effects, effectiveness, etc.


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## havasu (Jan 5, 2021)

Zanne, no idea as to which vaccine is suppose to be better. After just finding out that this vaccine will be administered on either a bi-annual or annual basis, maybe try one this year, then try the other next year?


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## Spicoli43 (Jan 5, 2021)

zannej said:


> Anyone heard much about the differences between the Pfizer vaccine and the Moderna vaccine? I've read the Moderna one stays good in a broader range of temperatures but I haven't heard anything consistent about side effects, effectiveness, etc.



Not much different besides the temperature. They are both Russian Roulette.


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## havasu (Jan 6, 2021)

This thread involves the Corona Virus, which has segwayed to Republican versus Democrat issues. Nobody here will be able to change my mind, nor Flyover's mind, nor Zanne's mind. For this reason, please limit discussion/debate to the Corona Virus discussion.


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 6, 2021)

Well let this topic stand as long as it's kept civil.


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## Flyover (Jan 6, 2021)

For the record, I'm always happy to have my mind changed with new evidence.


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## Flyover (Jan 6, 2021)

femgroup said:


> By the way, I 'get' why you posted what you did


Right. I was making a point, by analogy, about people who think masks don't work because there are still Covid cases in places that have mandatory masking.

Those people are erroneously comparing our present reality to the false expectation that if masks "work" they should eliminate 100% of infections, rather than to the actual alternative in which nobody is required to wear a mask and so very few people would, with the result that the infection rate would be much, much higher.


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## zannej (Jan 7, 2021)

So, my friend got some blood results back and discovered he has Covid antibodies. So, he apparently had it at some point. There was a point a few months back before the testing was available where he got so sick he had to use a nebulizer. He is afraid that he may have given Covid to his neighbor because his neighbor gave him the nebulizer and died 5 days later. Neighbor was elderly and had cancer. I told him it's not his fault. But, he mentioned that blood clots can be one of the Covid side effects. So we don't know if the clots were caused by Covid or by his ex caving in his eye socket with her phone (and cracking her phone's screen) or a combination of both.
We are all still wearing masks in public. Some of his family & their friends came by his house after his grandfather's funeral. One of them went to shake my hand but I had just scratched my nose and I started reaching and remembered and said "Oh wait, I was just scratching my nose and I'm sick" so she was cool with it. 

I hope this crap is all cleared up before summer because I'm fine with wearing a mask in winter when it's cold, but wearing one in summer when it's hot really sucked- although it's tolerable and preferable to being put on a respirator.


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## Flyover (Jan 7, 2021)

zannej said:


> I hope this crap is all cleared up before summer because I'm fine with wearing a mask in winter when it's cold, but wearing one in summer when it's hot really sucked- although it's tolerable and preferable to being put on a respirator.


Hah, I'm the opposite: this year I learned that I prefer a sweaty face to foggy glasses.

Particularly because if I have a mask on I'm usually in a store or something like that, which is likely to be air conditioned in the summer anyway. I tend to rip the thing off my face as soon as I'm out the door and away from any other people who are entering/exiting.


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## zannej (Jan 7, 2021)

I'm supposed to wear glasses but I've never gotten any that really worked for me. They were always still blurry. My mom had me get my eyes checked and get glasses when I was in Albuqueque, but the change in pressure from there to where we live affected my eyesight. Up there, my left eye was worse than my right, but down here it's the opposite. The glasses give me a headache and don't really help. I don't like extreme temperatures but I can handle cold better than heat. I get hot flashes already and I get overheated far too easily. I also feel sick if I breathe in air that is too cold so the mask keeps me cozy. When I had to wear one in the summer months, I put a tissue inside to sop up the sweat on my face. It also made the fabric feel better on my face. My current mask has a band at the top that lets me mold it to my nose so I don't have air blowing out the top of the mask as much to fog things up. I also have aviator's goggles that seal up around my eyes so they can't fog up from a mask. I usually wait until I get into my truck to take my mask off. 

Femgroup, I'm sorry to hear about your cousin's ex-wife.


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## 68bucks (Jan 7, 2021)

I'm sick of wearing a mask. I worked my whole career in the chemical industry and as such wore masks and resperators a lot and at times had to do a lot of physically demanding work. Nothing worse than a sweat soaked paper mask that sucks to your face with every breath.


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## zannej (Jan 8, 2021)

68bucks, I don't blame you for being sick of wearing masks. I imagine being on a respirator/ventilator or not being able to breathe at all is worse than the paper mask though. But it still sucks.
Hospitals in my area are swamped (although people who want to live are not going to the nearest one because no one with Covid has survived there). So people from my town are clogging up hospitals in other towns that have better quality care.
Governor just put out a notice about the hospitals being over capacity & how Covid is back on the rise again. Meanwhile, people aren't even willing to do the bare minimum to stop the spread.


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## Eddie_T (Jan 13, 2021)

Biden keeps saying follow the science but they are not using science. Doctors are not scientists unless they are in research. Fauci is the head of his organization not a current lab researcher. Many of the doctors I have dealt with have trouble with logic and are driven by the pharmaceutical industry and the accepted standard of care. I have particularly experienced that with respect to wound care and blood inr control.

Those that would confuse us actually avoid logic. If the COVID virus travels on aerosol particles as minute as the humidity of our breath why must they ram a probe almost to the sinuses to get a test sample? I ran a simple experiment, I often use my breath to fog my eyeglasses for cleaning. I tried fogging them with and without a mask and was unable to fog them indoors with a mask on. I didn't try outdoors. That does confirm my theory that masks have benefit and reduce aerosol even in a somewhat exaggerated breath situation.

If the scientific method were for some strange reason invoked a simple test could be used in the ICU. Simply expose slides to a COVID patient's breath with and without a mask and examine the slides for the presence of the virus. Anything less is opinionated hype.

So my common sense tells me that others are safer if I wear a mask and since a mask is two way device I am also safer if I wear one. Blowing out candles with a mask on is not science.


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## Flyover (Jan 13, 2021)

@Eddie_T

That is good thinking. I am not a medical professional and don't know why they swab instead of get a simple breath sample. If I had to guess though, it's because they need a certain amount of the virus to be present in the sample in order to easily detect it with their equipment, and there's just a lot more, by volume, in mucus than on aerosols. Or possibly it's because they want your cells to see if the virus has infected your cells rather than just whether you've inhaled/exhaled the virus without getting infected (which probably everyone has).


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## Eddie_T (Jan 13, 2021)

I can't wear glasses with my mask as I can't get the mask leakproof and it directs air under my glasses both fogging the inside of my glasses and irritating my eyes. 

Fortunately as I age my nearsightedness is regressing and I can see pretty well w/o glasses so I just don't wear them with the mask. I have a Snelling card sized for a six foot distance and can almost read the 20/20 line w/o glasses. I need to drag out my trial lens set and retest my eyes.


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## zannej (Jan 13, 2021)

I have masks with a little metal piece over the nose that can conform over my nose to hold it tighter and I fold a tissue and tuck it under the mask at the top. It tends to stop the steam from coming out and fogging up my glasses (when I actually wear my glasses).

My best friend's mom's boyfriend now has Covid and my friend is certain his mom probably has it too since they live together. She's quarantining with her bf. He's high risk because he's obese, older, and has preexisting conditions. His mom is a tough cookie so she will likely survive. Fun fact: She's related to Clint Eastwood and Clint Eastwood used to change her diapers.

The governor of my state said we are in Phase 2 again, but people are fatigued and not willing to wear masks, wash their hands, or distance. I hate having to go to the grocery store. Well, I usually hate going to the grocery store during flu season anyway because I often get sick. I do think that people being a little more careful has reduced the spread of the flu to an extent.

I'm hoping the vaccine will actually help to reduce it enough that things can get back under control & that we won't have another bad virus like this for another 100 years.


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