# help me wire this system



## frodo (Sep 25, 2017)

my goal is to control a circ pump using a 3 way switch in the bathroom
that will turn on the pump when the light is turned on
sounds simple enough.
but, I want this to happen in 2 bathrooms and the kitchen
will you please draw the wiring in  
all wires will be 12 g  with a ground


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

That is a good one.
Are they all on the same circuit?
The problem as I see it is all lights come on together.
Might need a relay of some type on each of the lights.

Or put the pump line to motion switches in all three bathrooms 
They would pick up the motion and can be set to turn off a set time after you leave the room. Will work with out the light turned on. and will not effect any lights.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...upancy-Detector-White-R02-IPS02-1LW/203826482


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

They have low voltage switches but $100 each. Hard wired might be cheaper.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Water-Heater-Recirculation-Pump-Motion-Sensor-Kit-SP20862/301995500


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## JoeD (Sep 25, 2017)

Unless you want all the lights on at the same time you will need some control circuitry with relays to turn on the pump.


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## bud16415 (Sep 26, 2017)

No one has offered a circuit yet??

Frodo

Please spell out in more detail what you are trying to do. 

My understanding is you want a pump to come on whenever you turn one of the 3 switches on and you want it to stay on until the light is shut off. Or more correctly all 3 lights are shut off. If any one, two or three of the lights is on the pump runs and when all three are off the pump stops? 

Are all three rooms and the pump all on the same side of the 120/240 feed? How much current does the pump draw? 

I am assuming you would like to do this with conventional switches you can buy? Would you be opposed to some relay logic to do this if that looks like the best way? How would you feel about push button momentary contact switches? 

Knowing the big picture will help in this case.


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## nealtw (Sep 26, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> No one has offered a circuit yet??
> 
> Frodo
> 
> ...



run a switch leg to each bathroom motion sensor switch for the pump.
don't have to mess with lights and stops even when some one left the light on all day.


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## bud16415 (Sep 26, 2017)

nealtw said:


> run a switch leg to each bathroom motion sensor switch for the pump.
> don't have to mess with lights and stops even when some one left the light on all day.



Put a float switch on whatever you are pumping and when it gets full pump it down.


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## nealtw (Sep 26, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> Put a float switch on whatever you are pumping and when it gets full pump it down.



You are not filling anything you are pumping water back the inlet side of the water heater.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 26, 2017)

Do you see any mention of a water heater in post #1?


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## nealtw (Sep 26, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Do you see any mention of a water heater in post #1?



circ pump, if you know what that is and what it does. Yes.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 26, 2017)

So, even though a "circ pump" could be connected in a water system, it could also be connected in a sewage evacuation system.

So, do you see a water heater in post #1?


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## nealtw (Sep 26, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> So, even though a "circ pump" could be connected in a water system, it could also be connected in a sewage evacuation system.
> 
> So, do you see a water heater in post #1?



Sorry, I will explain. For those with bigger house it takes a long time to get hot water into the far bathroom. Rich people buy in to the idea that the pump can run 24-7 until they get the bill for what ever the water tank uses.

So what they do is run a line from the hot water side of that bathrom back to a pump that puts the cold water back in the tank. 

So once we find how expensive it is and we already have the pump in we look for tricks to run the pump just when we need it.

So Frodo will have his return line at the bathroom furthest from the tank and he wants a trick to turn that on from any of the bathroom.

A timer or motion sensor both work, but the timer you have to remember to turn it on before you pee.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJJ9f71ZSYc[/ame]


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## frodo (Sep 26, 2017)

This is for a water heater circ pump.
I am leaning towards a low voltage system, even though in my first post I said 120
the reason why is regular residential motion sensors I do not think will hold up to the extra amps when the pump kicks on

 24vac from a transformer to my motion sensors and use a 24vac coil relay. Easier to pull low voltage than line voltage.
can you guys tell me the correct transformer and coil relay?


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## Blue Jay (Sep 26, 2017)

If you don't mind all the lights on at the same time a 4 way switching circuit would do the trick with all on the same line. But someone in another bathroom could put you in the dark.


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## nealtw (Sep 26, 2017)

Blue Jay said:


> If you don't mind all the lights on at the same time a 4 way switching circuit would do the trick with all on the same line. But someone in another bathroom could put you in the dark.



No. the lights will never work


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## Snoonyb (Sep 26, 2017)

nealtw said:


> Sorry, I will explain. For those with bigger house it takes a long time to get hot water into the far bathroom. Rich people buy in to the idea that the pump can run 24-7 until they get the bill for what ever the water tank uses.
> 
> So what they do is run a line from the hot water side of that bathrom back to a pump that puts the cold water back in the tank.
> 
> ...



Actually, I've installed a similar system in many regular folks homes and they simply operate off of a timer set to the needs of the residents and have no correlation to the lights, what-so-ever.

It's based upon on demand.


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## nealtw (Sep 26, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Actually, I've installed a similar system in many regular folks homes and they simply operate off of a timer set to the needs of the residents and have no correlation to the lights, what-so-ever.
> 
> It's based upon on demand.



Any idea on the sensor, relay and transformer, that he will need?


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## nealtw (Sep 26, 2017)

frodo said:


> This is for a water heater circ pump.
> I am leaning towards a low voltage system, even though in my first post I said 120
> the reason why is regular residential motion sensors I do not think will hold up to the extra amps when the pump kicks on
> 
> ...



Have you seen the Lobsters pump., under sink pump no return pipe and shuts it's self off when hot water arrives


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## Snoonyb (Sep 26, 2017)

nealtw said:


> Any idea on the sensor, relay and transformer, that he will need?



That system is not efficient or timely, in my opinion.

I prefer a timer set to the occupants schedule, so when you walk into any room with a faucet, you have hot water in 2 or 3 seconds, instead of waiting for an inderterminate period for the hot water to be *recirculated*.


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## nealtw (Sep 26, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> That system is not efficient or timely, in my opinion.
> 
> I prefer a timer set to the occupants schedule, so when you walk into any room with a faucet, you have hot water in 2 or 3 seconds, instead of waiting for an inderterminate period for the hot water to be *recirculated*.



Yeah and there is never an outlet under the sink in a bathroom. 
Sometimes the return line in a finished house is out of the question with out using an ax


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## frodo (Sep 26, 2017)

I do not like a timer system,
It comes on weather you are home or not, it wastes energy
a motion sensor does not waste energy, and you will have hw within 5 seconds

Or a system that constantly circs the water

I will stick with a low voltage motion sensor. it is more to my liking 

the pump tied into the light switch of a bathroom works great if you are just doing 1 bathrom


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## nealtw (Sep 27, 2017)

frodo said:


> I do not like a timer system,
> It comes on weather you are home or not, it wastes energy
> a motion sensor does not waste energy, and you will have hw within 5 seconds
> 
> ...



Have a look at this switch/transformer
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Honeywell-120-Volt-Switching-Relay-RA89A1074/100400826


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## Snoonyb (Sep 27, 2017)

frodo said:


> I do not like a timer system,
> It comes on weather you are home or not, it wastes energy



Yes, and the other down side, you have to actually be aware of the schedule of the occupants, which may even require a conversation.



frodo said:


> a motion sensor does not waste energy, and you will have hw within 5 seconds



If the heating appliance is within 5 or 6' of the point of use, which renders a recirculating system unnecessary.



frodo said:


> Or a system that constantly circs the water



Efficient????????



frodo said:


> I will stick with a low voltage motion sensor. it is more to my liking



Whatever floats your boat.


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## Sparky617 (Sep 27, 2017)

What kind of water heater do you use?  Instant or a tank?

I have a circulation pump on my hot water lines located in my master bathroom, the furthest point from the water heater.  It has a timer.  It also shuts itself off when the water reaches 95F. It uses the cold water line to send the water back towards the water heater.  It has saved us a fair amount of water over the years, though I can't say how much.  Before I installed it I could run 5 gallons of water out the tub before the water was hot enough to take a shower.  I know it was 5 gallons because I ran it into a 5-gallon bucket and used it to flush the toilet.  Now I run out about a gallon to get it to shower hot.  The bigger water saver for us was going to front-loading clothes washer.  That saved about 20% of our monthly usage.  Having a 50-gallon gas water heater I really don't see an increase in gas costs from this setup.  I mainly did it to cut down on the time it takes to get hot water for a shower.

If you have an instant water heater you want to use a setup like you're looking at. Constantly circulating the water would defeat the energy savings of a tankless water heater.


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## Blue Jay (Sep 27, 2017)

nealtw said:


> No. the lights will never work



Lights and pump would share the same 120V, pump would be just another light.


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## nealtw (Sep 27, 2017)

Sparky617 said:


> What kind of water heater do you use?  Instant or a tank?
> 
> I have a circulation pump on my hot water lines located in my master bathroom, the furthest point from the water heater.  It has a timer.  It also shuts itself off when the water reaches 95F. It uses the cold water line to send the water back towards the water heater.  It has saved us a fair amount of water over the years, though I can't say how much.  Before I installed it I could run 5 gallons of water out the tub before the water was hot enough to take a shower.  I know it was 5 gallons because I ran it into a 5-gallon bucket and used it to flush the toilet.  Now I run out about a gallon to get it to shower hot.  The bigger water saver for us was going to front-loading clothes washer.  That saved about 20% of our monthly usage.  Having a 50-gallon gas water heater I really don't see an increase in gas costs from this setup.  I mainly did it to cut down on the time it takes to get hot water for a shower.
> 
> If you have an instant water heater you want to use a setup like you're looking at. Constantly circulating the water would defeat the energy savings of a tankless water heater.



Your system is working the same as the Lobster.


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## frodo (Sep 28, 2017)

looks like I need a ignore button


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