# pier and beam and floor joist repair and leveling



## NYSandyvictim

Hello everyone. This may be a long post but i want to explain the best i can. In short im just looking for a little help fixing/leveling  the foundation/floor joists in my home after a hurricane and contractor who made more of a mess then the hurricane. After we kicked the contractor out because they messed up EVERYTHING they did, i started researching for weeks straight on how to correct some things (mainly the floor) .

The problem: After we saw how shoddy the contractors work was we really started checking everything. At this point the plywood subfloor was already down and badly unlevel and sloping bad in areas which was supposed to be leveled since we paid for it. We noticed that the side sill beam (pier and beam house) was badly rotted and cracked. Somehow the contractor didnt notice this or didnt care and laid the ply anyway. Well we made him take care of it foolishly and replace the sill beam/fix joists ect. He did it very poorly. He put in a cement footing 3" deep, replaced the sill with a treated 4x6.The joists that were badly damaged from the sill beam collapse he just put ripped down 2x2's on top of to make it look like it was fixed but didnt fix the joists.he actually cut the 2x10 joists off the sill beam and he sistered 2x4's about a foot or two in at the end all crookedly and barely attached . i slapped a few off with my finger when we took up the floor once he was gone. he also laid broken pieces of scrap wood all over the place to make the floor a little more level which it still was not.Not to mention he cut the wall studs off the sill beam and never replaced them.  i guess he did most of this because he didnt own a jack and the rest out of carelessness and spite.

Anyway now i am at the point of fixing this mess myself the right way starting from the dining room which is level all the way to the rear of the house. Dining room>Kitchen>bathroom/backdoor.Then end of the dining room to the middle of the kitchen is where the sill beam collapse was. I just started the job a few days ago. I sistered the original 2x10's with new 2x10's spanning from on the sill beam all the way to the center beam . BTW the house has 2 sill beams spanning 20' with a center beam splitting the span to 10' .The pics will tell more on how the house is. I got 4 done as of now leveled to the rest of the house that was undmaged and level. I connected the sisters with 3/8" carriage bolts with big washers and PL premium adhesive as well as 3 10dor16d ring shank nails shot in every 16" with the framing nailer. nice and strong now they are level and dont budge like they used to when being pushed on. I am now at the area where the sill collapsed and the joist is sinking more then 2" as it goes toward the sill beam. This also happens to be under the stairs and a non load bearing wall. The wall after removing the contractors ripped up 2x2 wedge under it is now floating about 2" over the joist. I have to get that joist back up to level. i put two jacks under it . This is where im at now.

There is a few beams laying across the floor under the stairs in which i need some advise on. The middle two dont look like they are doing anything . The one on the right (pics below) looks like its partially under a perpendicular wall in the kitchen . The one on the left looks like it goes all the way the the rear of the house. Iv never seen anything like this.  maybe someone here can see something or give advise on what they would do. I dont want to go breaking anything jacking. Anything you guys happen to notice in the pics below that would help or anything i should know .I know its kinda hard to tell. I did start jacking a little today and got the joist up around a inch already going very slowly all day.A pump or two every 20-30min.There doesnt seem like that much pressure on the jacks.There was some minor creaking and popping sounds on a couple pumps at the end of the day when we decided to stop and let it sit overnight. The pops sound like they are coming from the beam running under the stairs that i mentioned above. Could be just some nails breaking free or just unsticking. No major sounds. I just wanted to get some advice hear before i continue. My plan is to get it back up to where its supposed to be and sister a 2x10 across it like i did to the others.


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## NYSandyvictim

Heres some pics of everything from the contractors mess,sill beam old and new and then the work on the joist i just started.

sill beam problem



new sill beam( what looks like fixed joists is not.They acually only go in 15" or so and attached to the top of the old 2x10s that were cut which are hanging below the sill beam inside.


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## NYSandyvictim

pics of contractors mess


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## NYSandyvictim

on the left is where i started fixing and right side is more contractors crazy mess.




Joist i sistered so far with new 2x10's glued,bolted and nailed spanning sill to middle sill.




Now for what im up to and need some advice on if possible.
The problem vvvv Notice how looking through the wall under the stairs the floor is dropping bad compared to the rest of the house and newly sistered joists past it.


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## NYSandyvictim

I started removing all the little pieces they wedged under the wall to make up the space between the sunken joist and the wall.This needed to be removed to jack it of course.



more pics of the wood from the kitchen side.




with the wood removed. Notice the large gap under the wall and sunken joist below it.


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## NYSandyvictim

as the joist sinks down going towards the stairs. the middle sill beam is what it keeping the joist up high on the right side.



under the stairs .These are the beams i mentioned above that im not sure of what they are there for. The right one looks to be under the perpendicular wall in the kitchen just a tad but ends about 5' back.The middle 2 end about 3ft back and arnt doing anything. The left one seems to run through the whole kitchen under the drywall but im not sure its actually doing anything.IDK.That one seems to be the only thing really creaking when jacking though. Some pics to help you help me






heres where i set up my jacks. jack on the right is sitting a long 4' 2x6 and a few other 2x's packed tightly into the soil and leveled. On the top of the jack is 2 2x's .One i drilled a hole in the size of the jack screw to keep it on there steady. The other jack on the left is my secondary just sitting on the cement footing. BTW i had a friend repour the footing so its now 3ft deep. A little better then the 3" the contractor did.The original 2x10 joist in the pic is not touching the sill .It was cut and only thing holding it up it that piece of 2x6 in the front which was not even held on good itself. I put a extra 2x6 spanning all the way just for strength while jacking which will be changed to a new 2x10 when its jacked all the way . The front one will be coming out too after and also be a 2x10. 




Sorry for the long post . I just wanted to give a idea of my situation . Any advise from here foward is greatly appriciated on anything you can see or would help my journey. Thanks a bunch.


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## nealtw

I think you did good by getting rid of the contractor want to be. I think I would have attacked this a little different than you did but, here you are.
How did you attach or support the floor joists at the new sill beam?
I can't figure out for sure the beams under the stairs. If they are below the floor joists, they may have been put there to support the stairs and wall beside the stairs just to take the bounce out of the floor.


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## guyod

You have alot of pictures and detail but i am still having so trouble following why or how the floor is so far out of level.  The one picture looks like its 6" out of level in 6' and 16" away the next floor joist under stairs looks level. (I think its the stairs there).  So the floor joists are not long enough to sit the new sill and you are jacking up floor joists one at a time while sistering in new 2x10?   I would not do this. You should be jacking up as many floor joist at one time as possible.  A 4x4 makes for a good temp beam should be safe spanning 6'. Use 6x6 if lifting more than floor joists.  You should not be jacking up the walls steps 2nd floor or roof unless there is obvious gap that needs to be filled.  I see your wall has new studs so that would suggest that they were installed after the floor sank. I would not  jacking anymore.  Instead I would cut down studs of wall. you dont want to jack up 2nd floor if it doesnt need it.


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## NYSandyvictim

nealtw said:


> I think you did good by getting rid of the contractor want to be. I think I would have attacked this a little different than you did but, here you are.
> How did you attach or support the floor joists at the new sill beam?
> I can't figure out for sure the beams under the stairs. If they are below the floor joists, they may have been put there to support the stairs and wall beside the stairs just to take the bounce out of the floor.


floor joists just rest on the sill beam. I did add some L brackets but the original joists just sat on the sill between the wall plate and the sill. 



guyod said:


> You have alot of pictures and detail but i am still having so trouble following why or how the floor is so far out of level.  The one picture looks like its 6" out of level in 6' and 16" away the next floor joist under stairs looks level. (I think its the stairs there).  So the floor joists are not long enough to sit the new sill and you are jacking up floor joists one at a time while sistering in new 2x10?   I would not do this. You should be jacking up as many floor joist at one time as possible.  A 4x4 makes for a good temp beam should be safe spanning 6'. Use 6x6 if lifting more than floor joists.  You should not be jacking up the walls steps 2nd floor or roof unless there is obvious gap that needs to be filled.  I see your wall has new studs so that would suggest that they were installed after the floor sank. I would not  jacking anymore.  Instead I would cut down studs of wall. you dont want to jack up 2nd floor if it doesnt need it.



The floor is out of level because a portion (first pic ) of the sill beam collapsed where the joist dropped with it in that area. The contractors fix was not raising the joists back up to the original position ,he just nailed a 2x4 to the side of the old one that attached to the top portion of the old 2x10 .So basicallly the 2x10 is still dropping below the sill beam while the new 2x4 is sitting on the sill beam just holding the original from falling more.However the original 2x10 supposed to be sitting on the sill also is supposed to support the wall plate which now nothing is. The problem is just in that 6' or so area however since he didnt fix that area he hacked up the rest of the kitchen joists to make it more level with the damaged area instead of fixing the actual problem then kitchen joists would have been good and level. Before he started on the house there was only a single 2x10 every 16oc .Now there 4 or 5 pieces of wood in all different spots off each original 2x10 making spots of unlevelness and voids all over. 

The joists were long enough to reach even the new sill but the contractor cut them short because he didnt own a jack to get them back up wjere they were supposed to be before putting in the new sill beam. 

I was able to get the joist under the stairs jaacked all the way back up yesterday so now the top of the 2x10 is up against the wall plate and bottom over the sill. I then sistered a new joist in there so it sits flat on the sill beam. now its in the same position again like when the house was built. It doesnt look like the jacking effected any walls,just the joist im thinking .There was very little pressure on the jack handles. The wall with the gap was put in after the problem and the contractor never even screwed it down to the joist . The whole bottom was pretty much floating. Well he had ply wood under it ,The plywood was touching the adjacent joists but not the joist under the wall which is the reason why the gap is there when the ply was removed.

I would like to here how you guys would do this job. Thats the reason im here. Anything im doing wrong or could be done better i would like to know. Im all about wanting to do everything right.


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## guyod

The 2x10's should be spanning from beam to sill. Make sure your beam is strong enough. it wouldnt hurt to sister boards on to that too.  
Use a long straight edge across floor joists to make sure you dont have dips or humps 
I would jack up more than one floor joist at a time. Other than that i think your making the best out of a hack job.


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## nealtw

What I would have done different is, bring the foundation concrete up to 1 1/2" below the bottom of the joists used a 2x6 sill plate, slid in new joist and removed all the old junk. That would be the plan anyway, you always run into reasons why the best plan might be so simple. You are a long ways down the road, so I think you should continue and we will just thru you curve balls from time to time.
Did you notch the new joists to get them above the sill beam? Did you leave room for a rim joist? The rim joist sits on the out side of the sill and you nail thru it to the joists.


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## NYSandyvictim

guyod said:


> The 2x10's should be spanning from beam to sill. Make sure your beam is strong enough. it wouldnt hurt to sister boards on to that too.
> Use a long straight edge across floor joists to make sure you dont have dips or humps
> I would jack up more than one floor joist at a time. Other than that i think your making the best out of a hack job.



yes all the sisters i am putting in span from sill to middle beam getting rid of all the multiple little boards that were put all over the joists. The middle beam is the most solid part of the house. Its rock solid and in great condition. Size is 6x10 i believe and has 10" wooden piers under it about every 8' . I have been using a long 10' piece of red oak as a straightedge as well as my 6 and 8' box level. Trying to get it at least 1/4" out in 8' . The ones i did so far are less then 1/8" out in 8' and dead level in both directions. Before we found the mess under the new plywood we decided to take up the floor because it was over 2" out in like 4-5ft. Funny thing is the first thing we said to the contractor is we need flat floors and at the time it wasnt nearly as bad as after he finished. In contract it says level and flatten all floors and shore up any beams/joists. Right now we are waiting for the building dept to take action against him. The floors is only 1 thing of many things that were messed up. guy couldnt even do drywall right. Most held in by 2 screws and plastic water bottles wedge in the bottom. We also paid him to insulate the crawlspace and that wasnt done either. He put a few pieces of bat in a couple joists that were already laying in the dirt when we took the floor up.


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## NYSandyvictim

nealtw said:


> What I would have done different is, bring the foundation concrete up to 1 1/2" below the bottom of the joists used a 2x6 sill plate, slid in new joist and removed all the old junk. That would be the plan anyway, you always run into reasons why the best plan might be so simple. You are a long ways down the road, so I think you should continue and we will just thru you curve balls from time to time.
> Did you notch the new joists to get them above the sill beam? Did you leave room for a rim joist? The rim joist sits on the out side of the sill and you nail thru it to the joists.



That is interesting . I didnt know that would be ok to do. We never had any concrete around the house. It always was just wood pier and sill beam and open on the sides. I figured that concrete and rim joists were for a different type of foundation. The contractor put some cinderblocks under the sill beam to close it off a little. Not much room for a rim joist.The way the house is the vertical wall studs go down and sit on the sill beam. I can see a rim joist giving nice support though and closing it off the air much better. 

I did notch a couple of the joists i put in on the top of the joist not on the bottom. The deepest notch on top was about 1.5" .I had to notch 1/4" out of one joist on the bottom . Reason is the contractor also put the sill beam in a little crooked. It slopes down a bit going towards the back of the house. 

Right now a have run into a little issue. The joist under the wall i got raised all the way up and a new joist sistered to the side of it in the front however the joist is still twisted or tilting foward. I have been trying to get it to go straight but it wont budge. It might be just set crooked now from being like that over time. Anyway i can get it to go straight again? By straight i mean vertical .Right now its tilted like  (  / ) and im trying to get it back like this ( i )


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## guyod

3 Options
Blocking to next floor joist( will probably need lags or ledgerlock screws to grip enough to pull joist straight)
Shim new floor joist until its straight. (leave old tilted)
Remove old floor joist.


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## nealtw

The notching of the joists is a no no, so before you close that up we will get that fixed up.
To the question on the joist leaning, first have a look and make sure you haven't got nails or such that is stopping it from moving. Then decide whether the top or the bottom is in the right place.
If it is right on the top of the joist then cut a block that would fit between that joist and the next joist on each side. Install the one block high on the side that is right and the other low on the other side, as you hammer it in to place the joist will straighten up. If the next joists start to bend too, more blocks between joists even if you have to right across the run. Joists that are more than 7 ft should have bridging or solid blocking anyway. As you do blocking you want to keep an eye on the joists for straightness. Crooked joists make putting plywood down a pain.


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## NYSandyvictim

I thought notching the top of the joist wasnt too bad at around 2" or so .Also only the sill side is notched and center beam side is not. Is that not ok. I cant think of any other way to do it though. 

I was able to get the joist a little bit more straight . Then i did as suggested above and did the blocking trick then shimmed out the bottom of the old joist a little and pulled the top in with some lags then sister in the new 2x10 . Worked out good as now i also have some joist on the other side of the wall sticking out for the plywood to screw to so now i wont need to add a blocking strip for the plywood. Just finished up rebuilding the stud wall that was over the joist from scratch. Straight as a arrow now and 90 degrees from the perpendicular wall. Full studs too not pieces like it was. Now im moving to the next joist starting the kitchen. I had foundation company come out to my house yesterday for a estimate on fixing some foundation stuff here. Unfortunatly they werent really able to help since what they really do is ok on my house . Center beam support ect and werent able to do anything with the sill beam and under boiler due to the low height of my crawlspace. They did say that the only thing they can see wrong with the sill beam replacement span is its on a slope going down towards the back of the house.The piers they said looked ok except for a the one at the back of the span which is lower but intact and not leaning or shifting which leads them to believe its running pretty far down into the dirt. They may have been able to replace that pier but he said it probably wouldnt be worth it for us.Something with the soil condition being at sea level ,escavating ect. As far as leveling the floor with the sloping sill he said to pretty much do what i am doing and shimming the 2x10's on the sill for that area to make up for the sloping with it only be a 8ft span or so where its sloping. They did say the rest of the joists were a mess and i got a real butcher contractor.They must be fixed of course like im in the process of doing. 

thanks for the replies so far. 

Not sure what im going to do yet at the end of the kitchen where the guy cut the joists completely off the sill beam ,put a cross headerish 2x6 and connected the cut joists with joist hangers to it. he then has the header sitting on 2 piers he made. So basically the joists there are not connected to the house.They are just on those 2 piers on the inner crawlspace of the house not reaching the sill beam. The piers are also sticking up too high and when i remove the header and sister a2x10 the pier may be in the way of getting the 2x10 on the sill .


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## nealtw

I guess I was looking at the notches your guy did in his peices, I would like to see a photo of yours. With his the space above the beam would have been filled and the joist hung in hangers would be the correct way to do it. If the peirs are in the way, you could cut them down or frame around them with a double on each side and double blocking front and back with hangers and hang the missing joist off the double blocking, the blocking would be joist material. Or  just change the layout to have a floor joist on each side of the pier, just screws up the plywood a little.


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## NYSandyvictim

Found another big prob that has to be fixed asap. I may call someone in to fix this but would like to know the best way to fix it anyway in case i do decide to do it. On the kitchen wall (load bearing) the wall plate is rotted and cracked. There was a beam under between the wall plate and joist like(the same ones that are under the stairs but the contractor cut it out in that area of the crack and i can already see it has sagged down a lot. This looks like a major problem to me. this is the only wall perpendicular to the floor and ceiling joists in the kitchen . This wall also holds the stairs and ceiling/2nd floor joists. You can see in the pic how theres the wall with the beam between the joist and the plate and where the beam ends the plate sinks down a lot all the way to the actual floor joists. 

From the pics what do you think i need to do to fix this. Im thinking i will need to build a tempory support wall somehow then replace at least part of the wall (not the part that holds the stairs) I dont know how i would support the stairs. 

I temporarily put a double 2x4 between the joists under the problem area to hold it for a short time(red 2x4's) I still need to fix/sister the joists under the wall too.


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## NYSandyvictim

Here are some more pics of the problem area

heres the location of the wall shown from further away .Problem is at the end of the wall under where the microwave opening is (sheetrocked in this pic).See how stairs are connected to it. In the forground is the new non load bearing wall i just built replacing the one the contractor built very badly. 




whole wall straight on view




Notice the beam/planking that ran between the wall plate and the joist . It sticks out a little in the front and rest of it under the stairs . This was cut under the cracked area and reason it probably broke and sagged.


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## guyod

I would attach a min of a 2x6 temporarily to the studs. Span from end to at least stud on other side of boxed out hole in wall. Attach it with 2 4" 3/8 lags  per stud.  I would do this on both sides.  Then jack up 2x6 on both sides of wall. If lags start pulling out or it is hard to jack up then stop.  Hopefully you can get it up that extra inch to replace the bottom plate. If the wall doesnt want to jack up you will have to cut studs down a little.  once the new bottom stud is in straighten out the 2 stud that are crooked.  You will probably need sledge hammer.


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## nealtw

The wall carries the the floor upstairs and most ot the weight of the stairs is hung from the ceiling joist at the corner on the right. If the wall is in good shape on the left I would put a double 2x10 beam against the ceiling the legth of this wall support the left down to good floor joist and jack up the right side, using good floor joists on the right. That would lift the ceiling, the wall and the stairs all together. Once you have it up, if the beam is below the wall add solid blocking to the beam, if the beam isn't below the add a double floor joist blocking between the joists with hangers to carry the weight of the corner.


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## NYSandyvictim

I put a 2x8 across the studs like you mentioned just for some temp support until i think of which way to persue the job. Thanks for the help. Nealtw can you explain that a little more. Im not quite getting the grasp of it? 




heres a pic of the wall when there was no drywall on it. You can see how the ceiling/2nd floor joists end right on that wall.They done make it to the outside wall of the house here due to the staircase. Whoever made this wall back in the day did a really crappy job. I know there should have been a header over the microwave opening too. putting that opening there was not to smart as important as this wall is. 




Also before this contractor screwed up my house we use to have a arched wall in front of the bad wall. He told us the arch wall was not a load bearing wall before he removed it but i think it may have been a support wall . In the pic below it shows the arch wall. To get a idea of where it is corresponding to the bad wall in question . the kitchen cabinets on the right are on the new wall i just built and more to the right out of the pic is the bad wall in question. 

Reason i think it may have been a supporting wall also is that 1 its perpendicular to the joists,2 there is cross bracing on the ceiling over where it was and 3, when walking upstairs there is a hallway and wall running to the front of the house(bedrooms on the other side of the wall however that wall looks to be directly over where the arch wall was and then above the wall upstairs is the attic which has center studs to the roof running almost right over that wall too. 

What do you guys think? He said the arch wall had no pressure on it but i cant really take his word for it considering he couldnt do anything right.


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## nealtw

The bridging above the wall. Who knows why in an older house but today, the are installed in the center of the run when the run is more than 7 ft between bearing walls. That would say it was not a load bearing wall. If the whole wall was load bearing it would have solid bearing to the foundation or a beam of some sorts below to support it and the would have had a header built into the arch.
There are times that you have a single bearing point that carries a load, but that would be 2 or 3 studs nailed together in the wall with the load extending down to the foundation. Even a non bearing wall can take some bounce out of the floor up stairs. I hope that helps.

Back to the stair case wall, this is a whole lot easier if you can walk around a house and say look at or that but lets try again.
The first photo in your last post is worth looking at.
The straght run of stairs stop at the corner which is the sinking stud in question, so there should be like a double 2x8 running from that stud to the far wall of the stair case, then you have a pie shaped stair with like a 2x8 running from that stud to the back wall on an angle. Then you have a beam or another tread that lands on top of the same stud. That last beam or stair raiser is supporting all the floor joists above that have to end there. In short you have a pretty good sized point load on the corner.
As guyrod suggested you only have to raise the corner but I didn't like the lag bolt idea because we don't know what the load is, so sizing the lag bolts could be tricky at best and dangerous if you get it wrong. But now that I have seen more of the stairs to the right I would like to see what behind the drywall at the corner of the pie shaped stair and the top stair of the straight run and the area around the microwave hole
At one time there may have been a load bearing wall from the corner to over by the window and someone may have taken out to much structure for the hole.


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## PangioneDevelopers

Are there any architectural plans for this job?

Inspections?

The build out on these beams looks like 3:1 or triple the original weight. I'm sure you will find some helpful answers on a forum but is what I'm looking at going to pass inspection or up to code when it is finished?
Did the original contractor have permits?
Why do so many beams need to be lifted? What is the shape of the supporting foundation. Has that been addressed?


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## NYSandyvictim

nealtw said:


> The bridging above the wall. Who knows why in an older house but today, the are installed in the center of the run when the run is more than 7 ft between bearing walls. That would say it was not a load bearing wall. If the whole wall was load bearing it would have solid bearing to the foundation or a beam of some sorts below to support it and the would have had a header built into the arch.
> There are times that you have a single bearing point that carries a load, but that would be 2 or 3 studs nailed together in the wall with the load extending down to the foundation. Even a non bearing wall can take some bounce out of the floor up stairs. I hope that helps.
> 
> Back to the stair case wall, this is a whole lot easier if you can walk around a house and say look at or that but lets try again.
> The first photo in your last post is worth looking at.
> The straght run of stairs stop at the corner which is the sinking stud in question, so there should be like a double 2x8 running from that stud to the far wall of the stair case, then you have a pie shaped stair with like a 2x8 running from that stud to the back wall on an angle. Then you have a beam or another tread that lands on top of the same stud. That last beam or stair raiser is supporting all the floor joists above that have to end there. In short you have a pretty good sized point load on the corner.
> As guyrod suggested you only have to raise the corner but I didn't like the lag bolt idea because we don't know what the load is, so sizing the lag bolts could be tricky at best and dangerous if you get it wrong. But now that I have seen more of the stairs to the right I would like to see what behind the drywall at the corner of the pie shaped stair and the top stair of the straight run and the area around the microwave hole
> At one time there may have been a load bearing wall from the corner to over by the window and someone may have taken out to much structure for the hole.



Thanks. I hired a structual engineer the other day to look everything over and give us a report. Well worth it. He is making his report to explain the shoddy work our contractor did as well as show the astructual problems and how it should be fixed etc. Basically he told us the same as you on how the wall should be fixed. Build a temp support wall in front and start rebuilding from the bottom up.etc. We also are getting a estimate from a contractor to do the wall.The structual engineer also said something doesnt look right with another wall which is bowing out from the outside so yesterday we took off the sheetrock there and found another mess even worse then the other bad wall. I will post pics in my next post. 



PangioneDevelopers said:


> Are there any architectural plans for this job?
> 
> Inspections?
> 
> The build out on these beams looks like 3:1 or triple the original weight. I'm sure you will find some helpful answers on a forum but is what I'm looking at going to pass inspection or up to code when it is finished?
> Did the original contractor have permits?
> Why do so many beams need to be lifted? What is the shape of the supporting foundation. Has that been addressed?



No archetectual  plans or inspections. We however did just get 2 days ago a structual engineer to come in a give us a report on everything. The SE said everything i have done so far looks excellent with the joist work ,resupporting cut wall studs and non load bearing wall i built however the stuff that our shoddy contractor did looks horrible and needs to be fixed. The original contractor did not pull permits as the city suspended needing permits due to hurricane sandy or anyway thats what the building dept told us. As far as the supporting foundation besides the contractor cutting all the wall studs off the sill beam which is mostly fixed by me already the foundation is now in pretty good shape. 2 walls however is not the case and needs some rebuilding. The piers on the foundaiion are solid ,center beam is solid and the 2 side sill beams are now solid too after one span of sill was replaced.


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## NYSandyvictim

After the SE told us he thinks theres something wrong with the dining room wall since you can see the siding bowing out from the outside under the window we decided to remove the sheetrock on the wall to see what was going on . Sure enough we found a big mess. It looks like its about to collapse. Its sagging down badly on both sides of the window and the double 2x6 header acrosss the bottom of the window is actually bending very bad which is insane since thats not easy to do without tons of pressure. With both sides dropping bad and header bending theres also a triple stud in the middle of the window that is still solid it looks like which is holding the weight up it looks like causing it to bow outwards since it has nowhere to go. the bottom wall plates are also all broken and loose. Window itself is also bowing. This wall is much worse shape then the other wall. 

Looks like a combination of things caused the problem. Between it looking like it was never framed correctly(studs on side of the window should have been a king stud and jack stud going down to some bearing ,they are not,.Also some rot, some cutting the contractor did of the wall studs etc causing the problem. 

Question. How can this wall be fixed. This one looks a bit harder to fix. Its bad.


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## NYSandyvictim




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## NYSandyvictim

Just found this .  Heres a pic of the same wall took a week before the contractor started. Wall looks fine here. Looks like the contractor did all that damage to the wall. Lawsuit ? We are already in the process of sueing him but this before and after pic says a lot. Expecially with the fact that he cut the wall studs on this wall off the sill beam and never replaced them.


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## PangioneDevelopers

Ok 
that is good to know.

Any specific questions, just fire away and provide a pic or 2

David Pangione


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## NYSandyvictim

Any advice on how to fix the wall above? I know it has to be reframed since it looks like it was originally built backwarrds. header should be on top and should have king and jack studs. But how do i do it ? There seems to be a lot of pressure on this wall considering the double 2x6 header under the window is bowing like crazy and iv never seen or heard of double 2x6's bending that much in the vertical orientation. Looks to me like the studs on the sides of the window caving in is whats causing the bending/bowing. Im kinda scared just from the weight on it so any advice on how to fix it is greatly appriciated. Id be a lot more comfortable with more minds of advice. Thanks


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## bryce

"But how do i do it ?"

It looks like you house is all rotten. Wood is not structurally sound when it is rotten, it also produces mold. The white in your picture looks like mold or paint. 
You should gut the whole house, remove the rotten wood, replace it with new struture... then start from there. Once the whole house is opened up you can see what is going on.


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## nealtw

A header is above the window, this stuff is below the window, so it is just filler. This window has been made bigger at some time you need to check the header above it. Above the window there should be a 2 ply header, today would be 2x10 supported each side with a jack stud and a king stud beside that. So when you have it open like you have you should see 2 studs on each side of the window with solid blocking right to the foundation. Your contractor didn't help this but the problem was already there. If the upstairs is platform framed as in the upstairs walls are built ontop of the floor then you can just build the temp wall, jack it up and reframe the window and wall. You should have your engineer come back and look at it and check you loads incase it needs more than a normal header.


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## guyod

Was the sill replaced on this wall? Either the walls are sinking or the studs under the window were jacked up.  This is what happens when you try jacking up a house. 
I think this wall needs to be redone from scratch.  This means taking off the siding too. Once you take out studs and put in new ones you will need to nail the sheathing to the new studs. Sheathing is structural part of the house and with your house its needs all the strenght it can get.  
First you need to determine if the wall needs to go up or the studs under the window needs to go down.  
This is turning out to be a alot more than a DIY Project.  I feel bad for you. The never ending project.  Like neal said get that engineer back if he cant get there soon I would put up a temporary wall up asap just to be safe.


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## NYSandyvictim

Heres some better pics . There is a double 2x6 header above the window as well. The top wall plate is a pretty big beam too. At first i thought the top beam was rotted but theres a bunch of crappy looking shims on it that make it look that way. Its actually pretty solid. The reason im thinking the wall is falling and bowing is because the contractor cut the wall studs off the sill beam and never put them back on. All except for the middle triple stud in the center of the window which is still solid on the sill but now holding all the weight and since it has nowhere to go its trying to push outward. I temporarily reinforced the studs by putting it back on the sill but this has to get fixed soon as winter is coming up and right now we have no floors ,walls open and no heat in .


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## nealtw

The top of wall beam appears to have a join in the center of the window. My guess is the the three studs under the window used to be under the joint in those beams. the 2x6 header needs a stud under both sides that make it down to solid bearing, then you could rip all the junk out from under the window and rebuild it.


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## NYSandyvictim

nealtw said:


> The top of wall beam appears to have a join in the center of the window. My guess is the the three studs under the window used to be under the joint in those beams. the 2x6 header needs a stud under both sides that make it down to solid bearing, then you could rip all the junk out from under the window and rebuild it.



so first i would build a temp wall about 2ft in front of the wall . What next? Should i remove the window? Then remove all the wood blocking the path of the new king and jack studs that will be put in down to the main bearing(sill beam)? Of course i will have to remove that bent header under the window . Thats what im probably most scared about. I have never seen a single 2x6 bend that much ,much less a double 2x6 . There must be a tremendous amount of weight on that double 2x6 right ? How should i go about removing that safetly?


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## nealtw

If the window isn't pinched in the framing I would remove it first. If you lift a little weight with your temp wall you should be able to take it al out without much problem. There must be a lump of something under those three studs for them to be still pushing up like that??


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## PangioneDevelopers

So how has it been going on the job site ?

http://generalcontractorsbergencountynewjers.blogspot.com/


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## nealtw

PangioneDevelopers said:


> So how has it been going on the job site ?
> 
> http://generalcontractorsbergencountynewjers.blogspot.com/


 
I don't think this man has a lot of time foir chit chat. He is in your neck of the woods perhaps you could drop in and lend a hand.


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## NYSandyvictim

I have been waiting for a contractor to come back with the estimate to do the two walls .Wont know if im gonna tackle it myself until i hear back. 
PangioneDevelopers if you do work in my area (queens ny) and are licenced i wouldnt mind you PM'ing me with a estimate for the two walls. 

While im waiting i have been sistering more floor joists . i havent sistered the two joists directly under the microwave wall in the kitchen yet.I skipped those for now since im afraid to do them and cause they have that red support blocking i put under the cracked microwave wall screwed to them. I also found the shoddy contractor cut those original 2x10 joists off the sill beam and are now only on the sill by a 2ft long 2x4 screwed to the original 2x10 joist.


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## nealtw

The probem with the contractors are the real good ones will be reluctant to get involved in the middle of the job and want an engineer to write the instruction or you find another like the one you had.


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## NYSandyvictim

nealtw said:


> The probem with the contractors are the real good ones will be reluctant to get involved in the middle of the job and want an engineer to write the instruction or you find another like the one you had.



yea i know .thats the truth. finding a good contractor in my situation is proving impossible. So many things against me. Between being a disaster zone all good contractors are booked up , rest are price gouging like crazy. Then the few left want the easier faster money making jobs or new construction.Then to throw it on top i also push them away with my current situation with my last shoddy contractor that screwed up my house and didnt finish. Im almost at the point where i dont know what to do anymore. running out of options. Lucklily at least i have some experience in this work and most likely can do it myself even though i doubt myself sometimes on doing the bigger structual stuff. No matter what i always like to do all the research on doing everything before i do it even if i pretty much know how to do it or not. More minds together are always better then one. I thank you for all the advice so far. 

I am a machinist/engineer myself so this stuff shouldnt be too hard. Although what i do is cnc manufacturing and cad design which is a bit different from home building. At least if i do it though things will be straight to the thousands of an inch since im use to working with much tighter tolerances lol. 

I wish i could get past this structual stuff already and into the finish work though where i have plenty more experience. I have done tons of tile work, hardwood flooring ,drywalling,furniture building etc and damn good at that stuff.


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## bryce

"I wish i could get past this structual stuff already and into the finish work though where i have plenty more experience. I have done tons of tile work, hardwood flooring ,drywalling,furniture building etc and damn good at that stuff. "

Wait till you realize how much mold is coming off the wood.  When you see black looking wood it means it's rotten, you can hit it with a hammer and hear the hollow sound too. Not only is it weak structurally, it's toxic. The black mold can be really bad for allergies, the wood


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## NYSandyvictim

bryce said:


> "I wish i could get past this structual stuff already and into the finish work though where i have plenty more experience. I have done tons of tile work, hardwood flooring ,drywalling,furniture building etc and damn good at that stuff. "
> 
> Wait till you realize how much mold is coming off the wood.  When you see black looking wood it means it's rotten, you can hit it with a hammer and hear the hollow sound too. Not only is it weak structurally, it's toxic. The black mold can be really bad for allergies, the wood



Black wood?So what is your prefered remedy ,demo'ing the entire house and rebuilding from scratch?Moving out?Since what insurance gave us is a joke and most of it was lost with our shoddy contractor thats not a option.If i was rich i probably would just move out and buy another house but us middle class people cant do that. We once had a nice first floor with many nice things until a hurricane by the name of Sandy came through and we had to throw out everything we own. Its been over a year now of living in a bedroom with nothing but a microwave and mini fridge and i need my house back. Obviously you can see i am trying to do as much as possible. There are tons of people in our neighborhood who didnt have insurance that only cleaned there house with bleach,washed out electrical and went on living without doing and renovations.I am trying to do the right thing but realistically. 

 The only damaged/rotted wood in the house are in the 2 areas i am posting about. The house was gutted before the contractor started doing work putting in subflooring/drywall ect and no other walls are bad like these two. The wood color is all brown(not black) and dry (1920's lumber) except for the very bottom of these two walls which will be taken care of for sure. the house was treated for mold after the storm. Only black mold i found left was in one wall that was not gutted when treated. i have already taken care of that mold though and then sanded and painted the wall with clear zinnzer mold and mildew proof paint.The mold wasnt to bad either im thinking from pics of black mold iv seen searching the internet. It was just a few black spots up to the waterline. Im sure theres probably some more mold under the subfloor but i dont think its bad where i have to knock down my house or move out and the walls have also been dried out professionally so i dont think it would be growing. they brought in huge dehumidifier machines or whatever they are and ran them for days to remove all moisture. The waterline was up to the window sill in the pics.The SE said the house wasnt in bad shape structually minus the two walls that need to be fixed and rest of the floor joists that i didnt get to need sistering but he said theres no way it would fall down or anything other then that. 

I think the pics and stupid stuff our shoddy contractor did may be throwing you off.Except for the very bottom the wood is old but fine.White spots on the wall in the pics are sheetrock dust and spraypaint. We told the contractor to remove anymore mold he may have found.Well to act like he did something he just took white spray paint and sprayed everything down.

If you got any advice on what to actually do id love to hear it but just saying your house is rotton and moldy isnt helping me fix much.

In this pic you can see the darkness of the wood is from age being built in 1920.When the wood is cut into its not hollow.There are only a couple studs that are rotted through and those are the studs that i am replacing on bottom of the 2 walls


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## nealtw

In your last photo it appears a heavy beam running the length of the building on the outside wall. Is that correct?


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## bud16415

NYSandyVictim

I have been reading this thread all along and haven&#8217;t posted as you were getting good advice from others. I have gutted and rebuilt a couple of homes as old as yours or older and I&#8217;m also a tool maker by trade and a designer now so we have something in common. I can&#8217;t offer a great deal of technical information beyond what you are being given, but I can offer support as I know how a big project working mostly alone will wear you down, and working at the same time at a regular job and doing this part time takes a toll on you mentally and physically. From what I see in your photos you are making real progress and the work you are doing looks a lot better than the so called contractor you had. It&#8217;s a real shame people are taking advantage of a bad situation for so many people like that. 

What you need is constructive help with the problems at hand and overall support for what you are going thru doing the project. What you don&#8217;t need is suggestions of problems you might or might not have down the road without any suggestion of what to do about them. The house I&#8217;m ripping apart over the last 6 months is a circa 1900 that&#8217;s been standing strong for well over 100 years and the framing is dirty and black and dry. And when I cut into it it&#8217;s just like yours as solid and hard as the day it was erected. When you get a whiff of that pine smell when sawing, I always take it in as it&#8217;s a sign of the good old strong bones your building has still. 

You are taking all the correct steps and when you are done you will have something to really be proud of. During the process you need to stay focused on the rest of life and the truly important stuff like family and health also. It becomes a battle about time and not having enough of it and when you get a free couple hours we view it as I could get this or that done on the project. I find it hard to force myself away to just do something removed from the project like dinner or a movie with a special person, but you need to do that and come back with fresh body and ideas. 

I have been working on this latest house with my girlfriends grandfather in his 80&#8217;s and a retired toolmaker and home builder. He has a saying he keeps saying each time we get a little step done he says &#8220;Every little thing makes it better.&#8221; After hearing that about a thousand time when I&#8217;m working alone I find myself saying it. 

If I lived closer I would hope I would come over and offer a hand. Good luck I will keep reading as I find this thread very inspirational as I&#8217;m sure many others do as well. 
Bud


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## NYSandyvictim

nealtw said:


> In your last photo it appears a heavy beam running the length of the building on the outside wall. Is that correct?



Yup 6x6 sill beam running down the sides of the house that joists sit on . It has 16" wooden piers holding it up every 12' and a cinderblock wall between pier spans.


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## NYSandyvictim

bud16415 said:


> NYSandyVictim
> 
> I have been reading this thread all along and havent posted as you were getting good advice from others. I have gutted and rebuilt a couple of homes as old as yours or older and Im also a tool maker by trade and a designer now so we have something in common. I cant offer a great deal of technical information beyond what you are being given, but I can offer support as I know how a big project working mostly alone will wear you down, and working at the same time at a regular job and doing this part time takes a toll on you mentally and physically. From what I see in your photos you are making real progress and the work you are doing looks a lot better than the so called contractor you had. Its a real shame people are taking advantage of a bad situation for so many people like that.
> 
> What you need is constructive help with the problems at hand and overall support for what you are going thru doing the project. What you dont need is suggestions of problems you might or might not have down the road without any suggestion of what to do about them. The house Im ripping apart over the last 6 months is a circa 1900 thats been standing strong for well over 100 years and the framing is dirty and black and dry. And when I cut into it its just like yours as solid and hard as the day it was erected. When you get a whiff of that pine smell when sawing, I always take it in as its a sign of the good old strong bones your building has still.
> 
> You are taking all the correct steps and when you are done you will have something to really be proud of. During the process you need to stay focused on the rest of life and the truly important stuff like family and health also. It becomes a battle about time and not having enough of it and when you get a free couple hours we view it as I could get this or that done on the project. I find it hard to force myself away to just do something removed from the project like dinner or a movie with a special person, but you need to do that and come back with fresh body and ideas.
> 
> I have been working on this latest house with my girlfriends grandfather in his 80s and a retired toolmaker and home builder. He has a saying he keeps saying each time we get a little step done he says Every little thing makes it better. After hearing that about a thousand time when Im working alone I find myself saying it.
> 
> If I lived closer I would hope I would come over and offer a hand. Good luck I will keep reading as I find this thread very inspirational as Im sure many others do as well.
> Bud



Thanks Bud, helps a lot. You are right. For the last year i have done literally nothing but work and then work on the house from when i wake up til i go to sleep. It does take a toll on the body. My idea is that ill take a break once i have the structual stuff done and the floor closed up. I am worried and in a rush right now to get this stuff done before the weather starts really getting cold which is not much longer as its getting cold already. Right now we dont have the floor in and no baseboard heating in so when the winter comes we are really screwed if those things arnt done. Its not gonna be easy to live with no heat or floor in NY winter. It doesnt help that i have a really bad back too so im working through the pain everyday trying to do as much as possible. 

I love your girlfriends grandfathers saying Every little thing makes it better. .Thats what i keep saying to my mother as well.


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## nealtw

NYSandyvictim said:


> Yup 6x6 sill beam running down the sides of the house that joists sit on . It has 16" wooden piers holding it up every 12' and a cinderblock wall between pier spans.


 
No I ment above the wall, is that a beam above the header over the window?


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## NYSandyvictim

nealtw said:


> No I ment above the wall, is that a beam above the header over the window?



oops sorry. Yes is appears to be a pretty big beam up there. The house wasnt built very conventionally back when it was built in 1920. They have even used stuff like railroad ties which that beam may be.


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## nealtw

That beam seems to be doing all the work of a header, I would double up the studs on each side of the window and don't worry about the header over the window and just rip the junk out.


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## NYSandyvictim

nealtw said:


> That beam seems to be doing all the work of a header, I would double up the studs on each side of the window and don't worry about the header over the window and just rip the junk out.



Still build a temp support wall though correct?


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## nealtw

With the beam above, I'm not sure you have any need for the small header over the window, as long as that beam has good support on each side of the window. A temp wall wouldn't hurt.


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## NYSandyvictim

So the contractor we got to come check the job out came back with a estimate and went over the job with us. Im thinking we will go with them. They seem like they know what they are doing and have a very good rep so hopefully it will work out this time. They only do structual work and not kitchen renos ect. They came with a structual engineer who took a bunch of load numbers ect for all of the house and job thats being done. They will be rebuilding the 2 walls completley. Also running new joists ,beams and pier under our slab boiler room which right now is unsupported from the last contractor cutting all of the joists there and not putting anything back which is causing the slab to crack. Lastly they will be adding a steel i-beam from the front of the house to the rear of the house on the 1st floor ceiling with 3 post going down to the main bearing center beam on the foundation. This was needed because right now we have in the ceiling 2x8's 16"oc spanning the full width of the house (20') and the second floor has always been extremely bouncy. Hopefully that should stiffen the house up immensely. The only bad part is they arnt really doing any finish work except for the outside wall that was bulging out which they will reinstall the window , reinsulate and drywall and try to redo the siding in that area. For the ceiling we will have to redo some of the drywall and relocate a ceiling fan as well as do the finish work building the new i-beam posts into the wall with drywall. Electrical and drywall however is easy stuff to do. 

There estimate for all of this was 18k. What do you guys think ?Worth it? Im thinking just the i-beam alone would add a lot to the resale value of the house.I however dont know pricing for this stuff. They would be starting the day after thanksgiving. 

I also just finished sistering or replacing all the floor joists on one side of the kitchen and adding cross bridging except for 2 joists under the point load of that broken wall in the kitchen which i am still a ;little uncomfortable to tackle yet.All new double 2x10's now held in with carriage bolts and pretty much perfectly level so where getting there little by little.They feel solid as a rock now. I calculated it to a deflection number of L1920 so that should be well strong enough for granite tile which needs a deflection of L720 and porcelin at L360.


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## nealtw

It might sound a little high but the fact that they brought an engineer and went over the whole house is a big plus and you will likely have a house better than it's ever been is a plus. Make sure that includes an engineers report when done and take pictures of what's being done. That info is great at re-sale when inspectors can go over what has been done to the house. Floor deflection should improve slightly when you install the plywood subfloor.


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## bud16415

I know 18k is a lot of money, but to me that doesn&#8217;t sound too bad for that amount of work and material. With them taking care of the heavy structural problem it will give you more of a secure feeling going into the finish work. You will be able to pace yourself better knowing the house is safe and sealed up at that point. Get it all down in writing as Neil pointed out.


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## NYSandyvictim

Thanks guys. A bit more comfortable now. I wish they would start already. Its getting super cold. 29 degrees in my house right now. That brings up another question,Insulation. The shoddy contractor i had installed r13 fiberglass batt between the joists. Most have already fell to the dirt since he barely even stapled them in. I know batt shouldnt be used in between joists in crawlspaces anyway. What is the best way to insulate the subfloor. I have a lot of unordinary conditions making a insulation job a little harder then most. 

First my house doesnt have a rim joist. As im sure you seen the joists lay on the sill beam and wall studs also go down to the sill beam. That leaves the joist cavities open to the outside. I would like to insulate these open cavities.Would rigid foam work here even without a rim joist. 

second my crawlspace is really shallow. Too shallow for a spray foam guy to get under there and when the plywoods back on theres no way under there at all. 

Third i live in a area at sea level so every once in a while there is sea water under the house in the crawlspace. You cant stop it from coming in as sea water goes where it wants even through the soil. So therfore any encapsulation is not possible. 

fourth due to again living at sea level the foundation needs to be unsealed and have gaps for the water to get in/out by Fema code so not to pressureize the crawlspace causing to house to come off its foundation in a flood. We have these gaps between our piers and concrete block though which is below the joists/sill beam. I know they do make these auto opening/closing flood vents however they are too big to fit in our shallow crawlspace . 

What are my best options in these circumstances?


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## nealtw

Here we would be required to cut and fit solid blocking in the rim joist area and then solid blocking between the studs at the floor level. Rim blocks for earth quakes so they don't lay over and stud bay blocks for firestopping. We usually see bat insulation under the floor, no vapour barrier as the plywood is a solid surface and the other side wants to breath. They often have chicken wire to hold it up and keep critters out.
We also see solid foam cut to pressure fit and sealed with some special glue or caulking, that might work for you but is would want to be installed so it is in contact with the plywood when your done. tricky but not impossible I guess. Thoughts??


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## bud16415

I&#8217;m no expert on this subject for sure, but it seems if you are going to have salt water below the floor from time to time and draining out the crawl space is going to have to be viewed as the wet side of the insulating system. For me I would try and block vapor from the bottom up with some heavy plastic below the joists. I then like foam as Neil suggests. I don&#8217;t know if they can spray from the top filling the cavity the plastic would make or not. I have used the foam sheets cut to as close fit as I could and then used spray cans to fill the cracks. I&#8217;m not sure how you get below to attach a barrier? Maybe a system where you attach strips that hang out and then a sheet of foam bedded in with a line of spray foam. That way all your work would be from above. If you fit say 1&#8221; sheets against these strips maybe then have it foam filled? The experts are sure to post.


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## NYSandyvictim

nealtw said:


> Here we would be required to cut and fit solid blocking in the rim joist area and then solid blocking between the studs at the floor level. Rim blocks for earth quakes so they don't lay over and stud bay blocks for firestopping. We usually see bat insulation under the floor, no vapour barrier as the plywood is a solid surface and the other side wants to breath. They often have chicken wire to hold it up and keep critters out.
> We also see solid foam cut to pressure fit and sealed with some special glue or caulking, that might work for you but is would want to be installed so it is in contact with the plywood when your done. tricky but not impossible I guess. Thoughts??



The main thing that keeps the joist stiff and not able to rack or topple is that they are connected to the wall studs coming down on the side of each joist but yes there is also solid blocking stiffing on both sides in the center of each span. there also is crossblocking (looks like a wall plate but not one piece) at floor level of the wall studs. As much as i researched this was a popular way to build homes in the early 1900's. A rim joist seems a better idea to me though as it makes wall studs more open to the elements to rot over years. 

From what the spray foam guy and a couple contractors told me so far the best bet is to insulate the perimeter (aka rim joist area) with foam board and seal with spray foam. I like this idea but still wanted to get other opinions on it. I like your idea with doing between the joists with rigid foam as well . Doing both should help a lot. I have seen a video where they nailed furring strips halfway up the joists so that the rigid insulation sits flush with the top of the joists.Looked like a nice trick.


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## nealtw

That is what I was thinking would be your best bet for insulation. Any would that might be subect to weather like your sill beams could be treated with a copper based treatment, available at lumberyards.


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## nealtw

Just wondering if the contractor got started and how are you doing, keeping the family warm?


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