# Tesla Achilles Heel



## Eddie_T

The recent Tesla accident reveals the batteries as being a real hazard. Lithium batteries are finicky about mistreatment and overtemperature any accident that results in a short circuit or internal battery damage can be a disaster. It was reported that first responders had to use 30,000 gallons of water over four hours to put out the fire, as the battery kept reigniting. What is going to happen after a greater number of electric vehicles are on the road and become involved in accidents? Green may suddenly turn to charcoal.


----------



## Flyover

I expect in the short term there will be some turbulence and panic, but in the long term they'll figure out ways to mitigate this problem (whatever that is; you didn't provide a link so I don't actually know what you're talking about).


----------



## Eddie_T

Flyover said:


> I expect in the short term there will be some turbulence and panic, but in the long term they'll figure out ways to mitigate this problem (whatever that is; you didn't provide a link so I don't actually know what you're talking about).


Sorry about that, it was all over the news. Elon Musk claims autopilot was not used in fiery Tesla crash that killed 2 people in The Woodlands I suspect that people were so sucked into the autopilot issue they didn't latch onto danger lithium batteries present.


----------



## Flyover

Eddie_T said:


> Sorry about that, it was all over the news.


As you might recall, I don't actively follow the news


----------



## Steve123

25 gallons of gasoline going up in flames is not a good thing either.   

Root of the problem is a vehicle needs to carry a whole lot of energy.   Be it as a fossil fuel, battery, supercapacitor, or whatever.


----------



## bud16415

IMHO electric cars have a whole lot of Achilles Heels.



Batteries will evolve into safer and safe packages as the need continues increase just as internal combustion fuel cells have been designed to be safer. It was once thought external combustion would be the answer and that still may be the case. What killed them was the abundance of cheap liquid fuel that made lightweight engines compared to Stirling engines.  



I feel the major problem with electric cars is first where does the electric come from? Secondly is to replace 100 years of infrastructure built around one form of energy and redo it all to something different. We already have a shortfall in electric production with an ever-growing demand.



Right or wrong we have a society built around requiring a lot of movement of people and things over long distances. That plan worked ok given an abundance of cheap fuel. We are trying to not change any of that but radically change the method of doing it. Pure economics will show you the problems.

There is a lot of wishful thinking when it comes to making power and distributing power, not just storing power.


----------



## ajaynejr

Don't look now but pure lithium (a metal) reacts with water to give off hydrogen gas and heat.


----------



## Eddie_T

We may be trying to store too much energy in batteries. There has to be a limit and wishful thinking cannot take us past that limit.


----------



## Steve123

bud16415 said:


> I feel the major problem with electric cars is first where does the electric come from? Secondly is to replace 100 years of infrastructure built around one form of energy and redo it all to something different. We already have a shortfall in electric production with an ever-growing demand.




I  guess it depends on where you are.    I know in Ontario, we have an excess of electric power.   Coal power is long gone.   About 10% of electricity is from natural gas (which is one of the cleaner hydrocarbons) and the rest is non carbon emitting.


----------



## bud16415

Steve123 said:


> I  guess it depends on where you are.    I know in Ontario, we have an excess of electric power.   Coal power is long gone.   About 10% of electricity is from natural gas (which is one of the cleaner hydrocarbons) and the rest is non carbon emitting.


Canada is lucky and smart to have a good supply of hydro available 60% and take advantage of it.

Then add in another 15% nuclear the non-carbon emitting no one likes to talk about or name. You have a vast reserve of natural gas as a buffer back up for the 7% wind/solar or so of the classic non-carbons we are putting a lot of hope in down in the states.



Canada is a big place and power distribution works best when the demands are near the sources as you mostly have.



I believe the US is ahead of Canada in what we call renewable wind/solar but fall way short on hydro and doubt we have the ability or will to expand on what we have. Nuclear is a really tough sell here even if it would be the logical way to grow away from carbon assuming carbon is a problem.

So we are somewhat stuck if we wanted to flip our infrastructure for cars from gas to electric with releasing the carbon at the cars or at the source of the electric production. The bigger problem I see is demand with adding all these electric cars to a power distribution system that is already under rated. Not to mention power loss in transmission as here we like to consume our electricity but we like it made a long distance away. We like to go when and where we want and don’t support mass transit very well. A huge amount of our goods come to us by rail and locomotives have been hybrid powered for 75 years and over the last 40 years have become much cleaner, but still burn fossil fuels.


----------



## Spicoli43

Ok, lets take a Tesla on a "National Lampoon's Electric Family" trip. Don't worry, there are charging stations all over the country. By the Third charging station that takes an Hour and a half or so, and the 400th "Are we there yet"?, Daddy, who wishes he had his Escalade back, is willing to push the Tesla over the nearest cliff. He can claim the very valid "temporary insanity" defense. 

The local Tesla supercharger here  is in the parking lot of a supermarket, across the street is a Costco. There is also a Home Depot, but that's pretty much it. This family can't buy anything that isn't instantly consumable since every square inch is taken up for their trip luggage... I assume that's how most of the charging stations are situated, so the nightmare is real for anyone trying said trip. 

For a work commuter plugging it in every night, I can see that working possibly, but I can also see the Home Insurance people asking if you have an EV you charge at the residence, since there isn't a good insurance company in existence and they need to find a way to charge for every possible thing. 

Weighing all the problems of electric, while saving money actually driving, I say people will widely reject the thought of an all electric idea.


----------



## 68bucks

I doubt the potential of a battery fire will be the end of electric vehicles. As for the change to electric vehicles in general it seems inevitable. Most people can get by just fine with an electric vehicle. Now if you haul a lot of stuff or pull a trailer that's more of a challenge but I see there are some all electric trucks coming out. I think the biggest challenge is still long distance travel. The longish recharge times is the problem it seems to me. The infrastructure for electric is gradually building out and will continue. I imagine gas stations will start adding charging stations as their gas business gradually falls off. I don't think generation capacity will be an issue for a while as most of the charging takes place during off peak hours.


----------



## 68bucks

So here's a question, how many times a year do you drive more than 300 miles in a day? We have 2 vehicles one being a PU truck. I haul with that and pull a boat frequently. The truck would be a problem but the 2nd vehicle could probably be electric and fill our needs 95%+ of the time. I have no frame of reference for the cost per mile for electric vs gas though. I know maintenance is far less though.


----------



## Spicoli43

68bucks said:


> So here's a question, how many times a year do you drive more than 300 miles in a day? We have 2 vehicles one being a PU truck. I haul with that and pull a boat frequently. The truck would be a problem but the 2nd vehicle could probably be electric and fill our needs 95%+ of the time. I have no frame of reference for the cost per mile for electric vs gas though. I know maintenance is far less though.











						How Long Does it Take to Charge a Tesla? - AutoPilot Review
					

Find out how long it takes to charge a Tesla, including at home, on the road at Superchargers or public chargers. Plus charging tips!




					www.autopilotreview.com


----------



## Eddie_T

I often have to wait for another vehicle at the gas pump when traveling. Can you imagine waiting on a charging port?


----------



## 68bucks

Eddie_T said:


> I often have to wait for another vehicle at the gas pump when traveling. Can you imagine waiting on a charging port?


That is the major pain with an all electric vehicle but as I said how often do you do that? For us that's like once a year maybe. If we have to drive more than about 5 or 6 hours we are really thinking about flying. The exception to that is fishing trips. I usually make 2 or 3 a year and the drive is usually between 5 and 8 hours so that is a truck trip. But for 95% of our needs an EV with 250 - 300 miles of range would more than meet our needs. I suspect that is the same for most people. We just bought a a 2020 SUV so we are set for a while but the next car we buy may well be an EV. It will be interesting to see how the performance of them changes in the next 5 years or so. If they can get 500+ miles of range that would really change some things. Most people never drive more than 500 miles in a day even when traveling. After that length of time a lot of people are stopping for the night.


----------



## Eddie_T

I only have one vehicle and keep enough gas in it for emergency needs. If one goes on a 300 mile trip there has to be an immediate means to charge upon arrival. The same when returning home, no room for emergency use. With considerable planning one might be able to make it but much freedom and convenience would be lost.


----------



## bud16415

Right now in my state every gallon of gas has included in the price about 57 cents of road tax. When charging at home they will have to figure out a way of applying tax to your electric bill based on how much you charge your EV.



Someone above mentioned a lower cost to maintain an EV. Most new cars are easily getting 200k miles with routine service. I know this because I’m currently looking for a motor for a Honda product and everything out there in junkyards shows 200-300k. Folks run them forever. I have no idea the battery life in an EV and will it cost like an engine replacement when the time comes. Will the batteries go for 20 years? When a car dies a junkyard recycles the metal including the engine and it ends up being another car or a washing machine or something steel. Will these batteries be able to be made into new batteries?  



A few years ago one of the car companies was looking into making an all EV small car that came with a modular gas engine thing that hooked on it kind of like a small single caster wheeled trailer and turned it into a hybrid unlike the plug in hybrid where you haul around all that gear when you don’t need it. I thought this was a great idea although complicated a bit. For those trips where you had to push your distance. Charge when you can and gas when you can’t.

Too many people have this idea because nothing is spewing from their car that there is no pollution in the chain of events getting them to that point. Not just making the energy but also the energy used to make the product that they drive. Lithium batteries don’t grow on trees.


----------



## Steve123

In 2020, 75% of new car sales in Norway were electric.   45% in Iceland.   32% in Sweden. 

I read that Couche-Tard, that owns a lot of those gas stations/variety stores, is experimenting with putting charging ports at their stores.   They can see the day, that a lot of people stop coming to fill up with gasoline.


----------



## bud16415

I had an engineer friend that built an electric car from a Porsche in the late 60’s and drove it to work every day about 30 miles round trip for about 20 years. He only retired it when he found the value of the car stock was quite a lot and he returned the gas engine to it. Around the same time we started building an electric car to test market it looked like a little postal jeep. We built less than 100 of them and sold and gave them to the government at military locations to test. There was little to no desire for them commercially at that time gas was cheap and muscle cars were the rage. Not to mention batteries life was a big concern. A few years later never to give up on a good idea in the early 70s we introduced the Elec-Trak catchy name and all it was ahead of its time and a huge failure in the market place. I had to smile when I went to our new Ace Hardware in town the other day and there was a rechargeable electric push mower. I was looking it over and the owner came over and asked me if I wanted to buy one telling me it was the latest thing.


----------



## Steve123

Very cool (as we used to say).


----------



## Flyover

bud16415 said:


> Most new cars are easily getting 200k miles with routine service. I know this because I’m currently looking for a motor for a Honda product and everything out there in junkyards shows 200-300k.


Hondas and Toyotas have a well-earned repuation for long-term reliability, requiring only regular maintenance. (Barring excessive rust, which claimed the lives of two of my Japanese cars at the young ages of 211K and 195K.) I think there are a few particular models of other cars known for this as well (the Ford Crown Vic, the Buick Century, and certain American pickup trucks) but my understanding is that most new cars (i.e. within the last 5-10 years), especially from American and European manufacturers, are unlikely to last even 100K miles just with routine maintenance.


----------



## Bob Reynolds

Sorry to chime in late, but here's some feedback from someone that has purchased 5 electric cars over the past 10 years.  

One thing that I have noticed is there are a whole lot of folks that have "expert advice" about electric cars, but they have never owned (or even driven one).  

So ask the man that owns one!

I started on the electric car adventure in 2011 with a pre-deposit on a Nissan Leaf.  I picked up the Nissan Leaf in March 2012 at the dealer. The price was the sticker price.  There were no discounts.  Some dealers were adding an additional dealer markup to the sticker price at that time.

The 2012 Nissan Leaf had a range of 80 miles.  You could drive it about 35 miles out and 35 miles back and then charge it at home with a ($3000 then) level 2 charger in about 8 hours from a fully depleted battery.  Most of the time, you just took it out to the store or to work and drove it less than 30 miles a day.   The car was not suitable for long trips because of the 80 mile range.  If we had to take a long trip then we had 4 other gas powered vehicles to choose from.  We still have the 2012 Nissan Leaf.  Today it has over 90,000 miles on it.  It has never had gasoline it it because it doesn't have a gas tank.  It's never been driven more than 50 miles from home.  My teenage daughter had a front end collision in the Nissan Leaf  about 4 years ago.  The airbag was deployed.  The front end was damaged.  The car did not blow up and did not catch fire.  The safety features activated and cut all of the power off to the battery and shut the car down.  The car was repaired and runs as good as new.

We also leased a 2013 Ford Focus Electric because my wife and I both liked to drive the first electric car.  It had a range of about 80 miles.  About 3 months after we had it a Chevy Silverado pickup rear ended my wife at 35 miles an hour while we was stopped at a traffic light.  Airbags did not deploy.  The car did not catch fire and did not explode.  The safety features activated.  The car was fixed and we turned it in at the end of the lease with no further problems.

We then leased a 2016 Nissan Leaf with about an 85 mile range.  My teenage daughter bent the right front wheel and destroyed the tire.  I replaced the wheel and tire.  She drove the car to school on a daily basis.  Other than that, there were no issues with the 2016 Nissan Leaf.

In October 2020, I leased 2 Chevy Bolts because Costco had a $3000 discount on each one that was applied directly to the lease payment.  The result was that I could lease the cars for 36 months with no money down and $230 a month.  Some folks got them for less.  I figure I save over $200 a month in gas by driving an electric car.  I don't know of a more economical car to drive. They have a published range of 259 miles. They actually are going a bit further than that.   I drove the Bolt from Florida to North Carolina last October.  I stopped 3 times to charge.  (Ormond Beach, Florida, Jacksonville, Florida, Waterboro, SC)  They have high speed chargers at some Wal-Marts and you can charge your car and do a little shopping and restroom visit while the car is charging.  It takes a little under an hour from a nearly depleted battery.  The cost is around $12-$14 for the high speed charger. Other than those 600 mile trips, the vehicles have never been charged outside of our home.  We have a level 2 wall mounted charger at each of our homes.  The cost to charge at home is about .11 cents a kilowatt.  If you charge outside the home is will cost 3-4 times as much per kilowatt so there is no need to do it, unless you are on a long trip.  

My wife, figures that she saves 40 hours a year by not having to go to the gas station.  Our gas station is in our garage.  We pay sales tax on the electricity that the car uses in both Florida and North Carolina.  So the government is getting their tax money on the energy used in the electric cars.  

I have two daughters.  They have grown up with the electric cars.  One daughter has not driven anything other than an electric car.  The other is in college and they don't have the charging stations there otherwise she would have an electric car with her.

The Level 2 chargers have dropped in price.  What used to cost thousands of dollars now can be purchased for $400-$500.  One charger will charge all of the different makes and models of vehicles because they all have a standard plug except for Tesla which requires an adapter.  

Anyway, that's my experience with 5 electric cars.  We didn't buy any gas this month.


----------



## 68bucks

bud16415 said:


> Someone above mentioned a lower cost to maintain an EV. Most new cars are easily getting 200k miles with routine service. I know this because I’m currently looking for a motor for a Honda product and everything out there in junkyards shows 200-300k. Folks run them forever.


Maintenance on a car is less than it was in the day but in 200k miles you have what 40 - 50 oil changes, belts that need changed, at leat 1 set of plugs, my Honda van recommended replacing the water pump before that, air filters, differential oil change, transmission oil change, radiator flush, etc. All that disappears with an EV. So over 200k miles that is a considerable chunk of money. 


Eddie_T said:


> I only have one vehicle and keep enough gas in it for emergency needs. If one goes on a 300 mile trip there has to be an immediate means to charge upon arrival. The same when returning home, no room for emergency use. With considerable planning one might be able to make it but much freedom and convenience would be lost.


So with only 1 vehicle I see your delema but how many 300+ mile trips does it take a year? In the next 5 years there will be a lot more charging options I'm guessing and if you own an EV you obviously have to have your own charging options. My understanding is you can plug it it a wall outlet but it's real slow. I don't get the emergency use issue really. You keep your jeep gassed up for emergencies wouldn't you keep your EV charged up too? Do you have a lot of emergency trips that are over 300 miles or emergencies at the end of a trip? If you think about it if you park the jeep with a low fuel level and have an emergency you have to go fill up then drive, if you park your EV with a low charge it refills sitting in the garage, the "tank" is always full and ready. 

I'm not a big EV fan, I drive a truck. That said I can see the hand writing and in reality an EV would be sufficient for most people, us included. We'll except for pulling a boat several hundred miles.


----------



## Sparky617

Canada has the advantage of a lot of uninhabited land with a lot of water.  They have about the same land mass as the USA with 1/10th the population.  And most of their population is located within about 50 miles of the US border.  Try building new hydro power in the USA today.  We may have built the Hoover Dam in 3 years, but it would take at least 10 to get through environmental reviews/approvals/appeals today.   Wind and solar are fine, but you need a baseload generation capacity or a lot of storage.  Nuke power with a standardized design would be the way to go for baseload power.

I think the fire situation with the Tesla's is due to fire departments not having training and experience in dealing with battery fires and trying to use water where another method would be preferred.   I'm thinking of getting an EV for our next car, won't be a Tesla, might be a Mustang Mach E once they've built a few hundred thousand of them.  I'm adding a 50A 220V outlet to my garage as part of my basement project because I'm fairly certain EVs are not a fad.  Honda and Toyota are trying to promote hydrogen fuel cell cars out in California but it doesn't seem to be taking off due to very limited refueling stations.


----------



## Eddie_T

The full tank theory only works when sufficient time is available to fill it. When one arrives home after a trip it will take overnight to fill the tank. If the grid goes down due to a storm or other catastrophe it ain't gonna happen. We can't schedule emergencies to coincide with a full battery. Trips would have to be carefully planned with allowance for those time consuming fillups, even a fast charge is not fast. So the reality is that EV can be sufficient for most folks if they are willing to put up with the inconveniences. Even if a gas station added 10 charging ports can you imagine 10 vehicles sitting there long enough for a charge (with others in line) or what about a mandatory evacuation due to a hurricane? And there's always that dreaded emergency call that could come just as you plugged that sucker into the charger.

We won't know the actual expense of EV operation until the governments figure out how to factor road tax in. The EV crowd is making out at present but a big surprise is coming.


----------



## bud16415

I’m in no way a detractor of the idea of EVs. We have as a people made many transitions between new and different technologies over the years. We once rode around being pulled by a horse in a buggy and many of my Amish neighbors still do it that way. The analogy is actually pretty close and a little thought provoking. The Amish guy I had working on my roof came every morning with two helpers on a buggy set up as a workman’s vehicle and he lived about 10 miles from my place. I asked him about how big of an area he worked in and he said he liked to keep it under 40 miles round trip and 30 was better for the horse. I asked him how many MPG he got on his rig and he laughed and told me it was 4WD pointing at the 4 legs on his horse. He went around and pulled out a 1 lb coffee can full of oats and he said about half this will get me home. He tied the horse to my shade tree out back and the horse had other ideas about fuel and also did a nice job trimming my grass and fertilizing the lawn. I asked him how he stayed warm in the winter as we get weeks down around zero sometimes. He said they have heavy blankets and will warm some bricks on the wood stove and use them under the blankets for the kids.



I have never owned an EV but some things that come to mind in our little town is first winter driving and heating the cabin? My understanding is they use a heat pump system for winter heating and summer cooling. I’m not an expert on heat pumps but I know people around here don’t have much luck with them during winter but they work great spring and fall in residential. A lot of people here only own and can afford to own one vehicle and the big town of Erie and back might be pushing the limits I think SAMS club now has some charging but unless you want to shop there it is a long way to walk to other places people want to go. They might have charging for a dozen cars but parking for a thousand. My commute to work used to be around 26 miles one-way and the reason I parked my GMC V8 2500 and bought a Kia Soul. I paid for the Soul in gas savings. In the winter months driving times get extended and it is not uncommon to be detained. It is important to stay warm and stay in your car sometimes an extra 20 minutes. When you run out of amps in an EV you can’t call a friend to come with a can of gas. Does AAA have any provisions for coming out and giving you a quick charge? Around here a lot of older homes still have not been electrically upgraded many having 60a service or 100a is that sufficient for a home and charging station? Most people park outside in the elements and many park on the street in front of their homes is that a problem running overnight charging cables out to cars maybe 100’ from the house?



I’m sure people will adapt the vast majority of people around here buy used cars as new is out of their price point. So for those people the population of EVs will have to grow and turn over and it sounds like folks are hanging on to their EV once they get one. The people driving really little cars like I have are mainly the ones putting lots of miles on them and doing it for the economy. I see retired people that seldom drive much not caring about the MPG and driving older big boats. Then there is the younger population driving huge pickups that never seem to haul anything. Some pull boats and four wheelers and go off road on the weekends and then use them as the daily driver the rest of the time. That culture will likely have to adapt a lot.



From the little research I have done if the country switches to total electric for cars that would be a demand increase for electric generation of about 25-35% and they hope to balance that with smart charging where the charging station will know the grids demand and charge only during off peak hours. Balancing the power grid has always been a problem so that could be a good thing as long as your boss understands you can’t get to work on a hot summer day because too many people in your sector were running AC all night and your car didn’t charge.

Around here at least 90% of home heating is gas and I think it would be higher but a lot of people use wood. The next logical step will be to eliminate gas as a heat source and convert home heating to electric as well. I wonder where that will push that 25-35% figure to? The funny part is burning wood releases carbon also but many feel wood is ok because the carbon has only been trapped a short amount of time and if the tree dies and rots in the woods that carbon gets released just the same.


----------



## bud16415

Sparky617 said:


> Canada has the advantage of a lot of uninhabited land with a lot of water.  They have about the same land mass as the USA with 1/10th the population.  And most of their population is located within about 50 miles of the US border.  Try building new hydro power in the USA today.  We may have built the Hoover Dam in 3 years, but it would take at least 10 to get through environmental reviews/approvals/appeals today.   Wind and solar are fine, but you need a baseload generation capacity or a lot of storage.  Nuke power with a standardized design would be the way to go for baseload power.


You make some great points. My sister and I are at different poles when it comes to most of this stuff. We are currently in the market for a new car and my sister was telling us we needed something like her Buick with heated and cooling seats and electric start. She said it is wonderful to be in the house and push the button and go out in a half hour and all the snow and ice has melted and the leather seats are as warm as toast. I told her you know within a few years your car will be an EV and doing that will likely use up your full charge and you wont be able to drive anyplace. She said oh “they” will figure all that out so cars will be just what we want by the time gets here. I said you know the country will need to make more electric for the demand and the only logical way is with nuclear power. She said “NO” nuclear is never going to be a solution and she will never support that. I reminded her she lives 30 miles down wind from a nuclear plant and no one even notices it. She said don’t remind me. I asked her where our power should come from. She quickly said solar, wind and waves/tide. I asked her if she would have a problem with a solar or wind farm near her house, and she said no they need to build them where no one lives. I asked her like out in the forests and she said no cutting down forests they should do it where those big farms are. I said that’s a good idea the ones around here are mostly growing corn to make alcohol out of for fuel for your car and we won’t need that as the cars will be electric. She said there ya go.


----------



## 68bucks

Eddie_T said:


> The full tank theory only works when sufficient time is available to fill it. When one arrives home after a trip it will take overnight to fill the tank. If the grid goes down due to a storm or other catastrophe it ain't gonna happen. We can't schedule emergencies to coincide with a full battery. Trips would have to be carefully planned with allowance for those time consuming fillups, even a fast charge is not fast. So the reality is that EV can be sufficient for most folks if they are willing to put up with the inconveniences. Even if a gas station added 10 charging ports can you imagine 10 vehicles sitting there long enough for a charge (with others in line) or what about a mandatory evacuation due to a hurricane? And there's always that dreaded emergency call that could come just as you plugged that sucker into the charger.
> 
> We won't know the actual expense of EV operation until the governments figure out how to factor road tax in. The EV crowd is making out at present but a big surprise is coming.


See you keep coming back with analogies about trips, long drives and long charging sessions but in your post about the Jeep you said you mainly keep it in the garage with enough gas for emergencies. What I'm getting at is how many times do you leave the house and run out the entire tank of gas? Once a week, once a month, less often? For our car it would be a handful of times a year at best and we live in a rural area. If you run around and drive 150 miles, which is a lot of just running around on errands and the like, you get home with half a charge or more and it recharges sitting there. If you have a gas tank you come home with half a tank period, unless you top off your tank every time you go anywhere. Also if you have a regular charging station its a few hours or less not over night. That's what I'm getting at is that with 300 miles or more in range an EV would fill the needs of a pretty high percentage or people. As for an emergency hurricane evacuation? I don't live in those areas but it seems like stations always run out of gas anyway and hurricanes are forecast days in advance so if you think there is a chance you'll have to evacuate you have plenty of time to prepare. The emergency that comes up just as you plug in, yea anything is possible but how likely is that? You could run to the garage and your car won't start even with a full tank, so maybe you really need 2 cars to really play it safe. My next vehicle purchase will be to replace my truck but in 6 or 8 years or more when we replace the SUV I'd say it's 50/50 maybe on whether we would go electric.

 I think some states are adopting tax schemes for EV's that will even out the tax for road repairs. That is inevitable but doesn't make any difference in operational cost for and ICE vs an EV, it will wash out. The maintenance costs are significantly different though. Is it enough to offset the purchase price, I don't know.

BTW I still think Hydrogen will play a significant role in future transportation fuels.


----------



## Eddie_T

@bud16415 I see you've given this some thought. There are so many things that haven't been given consideration. On street parking (even driveway parking) I suspect will lead to theft of charging cables for copper value. It's going to become an 'impractical' truth.


----------



## Eddie_T

68bucks said:


> See you keep coming back with analogies about trips, long drives and long charging sessions but in your post about the Jeep you said you mainly keep it in the garage with enough gas for emergencies. What I'm getting at is how many times do you leave the house and run out the entire tank of gas? Once a week, once a month, less often? For our car it would be a handful of times a year at best and we live in a rural area. If you run around and drive 150 miles, which is a lot of just running around on errands and the like, you get home with half a charge or more and it recharges sitting there. If you have a gas tank you come home with half a tank period, unless you top off your tank every time you go anywhere. Also if you have a regular charging station its a few hours or less not over night. That's what I'm getting at is that with 300 miles or more in range an EV would fill the needs of a pretty high percentage or people. As for an emergency hurricane evacuation? I don't live in those areas but it seems like stations always run out of gas anyway and hurricanes are forecast days in advance so if you think there is a chance you'll have to evacuate you have plenty of time to prepare. The emergency that comes up just as you plug in, yea anything is possible but how likely is that? You could run to the garage and your car won't start even with a full tank, so maybe you really need 2 cars to really play it safe. My next vehicle purchase will be to replace my truck but in 6 or 8 years or more when we replace the SUV I'd say it's 50/50 maybe on whether we would go electric.
> 
> I think some states are adopting tax schemes for EV's that will even out the tax for road repairs. That is inevitable but doesn't make any difference in operational cost for and ICE vs an EV, it will wash out. The maintenance costs are significantly different though. Is it enough to offset the purchase price, I don't know.
> 
> BTW I still think Hydrogen will play a significant role in future transportation fuels.


You keep thinking emergencies or even short term inconvenience are to be ignored. When they happen to you they are quite serious. If hurricanes currently catch people unprepared  it will be unprepared in spades with EVs and gas cans won't help. BTW I don't keep a Jeep in the garage I have a Prism in the drive which can travel around 400 miles on a full tank (and I have gotten a call in the middle of the night).  However the on-street charging issue takes out a large number of city and urban people.


----------



## Spicoli43

Flyover said:


> Hondas and Toyotas have a well-earned repuation for long-term reliability, requiring only regular maintenance. (Barring excessive rust, which claimed the lives of two of my Japanese cars at the young ages of 211K and 195K.) I think there are a few particular models of other cars known for this as well (the Ford Crown Vic, the Buick Century, and certain American pickup trucks) but my understanding is that most new cars (i.e. within the last 5-10 years), especially from American and European manufacturers, are unlikely to last even 100K miles just with routine maintenance.



Yeah, I got a Civic the last time the gas was headed higher, as it gets 30 MPG while my Truck only gets 10. Hondas will last forever, but the tradeoff is they make you go to the dealer for service such as when you need a new key, which they charge to cut, then charge $75 to program it. Then the trunk is an electronic lock, I don't know how much that is to fix, and there is no outside lock for the passenger side. 

Going to the dealer is a pain because they do a free "checkup" every time it's in there, like for the airbag recall. They said I needed an oil change and a transmission fluid change, total about $160 or so... I said "Ok, so that's 2 bolts, anything else?" I told the guy I have my own shop and my own lift, so he could leave me alone. I don't yet, but I can crawl under there and turn a damn socket. The look on the guy's face was akin to me stealing his puppy or something. 

I don't know about other dealers because I have done my own maintenance for so long, but Honda is like roaches when they are trying to milk business out of me.


----------



## Flyover

@Spicoli43: You seem to be talking about them hifalutin fancy new Civics; as I said in my comment, I was referring to the older cars. If you need to "program" your key rather than cut it, then your car is too new -- even if it's a Honda or Toyota. I also hate this new fad of eliminating passenger side keyholes. I've never been to a Honda dealership, and went to a Toyota dealership only for a recall on some part that they replaced for free. I don't think they tried to upsell me on anything, but maybe they did and I just said "No" so easily it didn't even register in my memory.


----------



## Spicoli43

Flyover said:


> @Spicoli43: You seem to be talking about them hifalutin fancy new Civics; as I said in my comment, I was referring to the older cars. If you need to "program" your key rather than cut it, then your car is too new -- even if it's a Honda or Toyota. I also hate this new fad of eliminating passenger side keyholes. I've never been to a Honda dealership, and went to a Toyota dealership only for a recall on some part that they replaced for free. I don't think they tried to upsell me on anything, but maybe they did and I just said "No" so easily it didn't even register in my memory.



Yes, I don't like the massive onslaught of electronic everything. I would much rather have a Big Block old Truck that I can climb in the engine bay than my modern Ford that was put together by robots that took almost every square inch for the extra garbage.

My Sister's Jeep Grand Cherokee, 2011 I think, was in the shop for some electronic problem more than she drove it, but she didn't care because the seats were less comfortable than sitting on concrete. 

My only exception for new vehicles will be a Dodge Charger Hellcat or a Dodge TRX with the Hellcat engine. I will waive all my feelings about everything I hate about new technology for them. That's it. I have never liked Corvettes or Mustangs or anything else. I'll also settle for an old school Charger. 

As far as the Civic though, I would rather have a Geo Metro and get 58 MPG while enjoying the slow lane.


----------



## Flyover

The Geo Metro is one of my all-time favorite cars. My heart skips a beat when I see someone driving one around. If you offered me a Geo Metro in good condition for some nice price or a Hellcat for free (and I'm not allowed to just sell it), I'd pay for the Metro.

Other cars that make my heart skip: the Tercel wagon, the Honda Wagovan, the Honda Civic hatchback from before 1999, the 1980s Corolla hatchback (which I actually owned and miss so much I still have dreams about). Those are the cars I drool over, not muscle car or supercars.


----------



## Spicoli43

Flyover said:


> The Geo Metro is one of my all-time favorite cars. My heart skips a beat when I see someone driving one around. If you offered me a Geo Metro in good condition for some nice price or a Hellcat for free (and I'm not allowed to just sell it), I'd pay for the Metro.
> 
> Other cars that make my heart skip: the Tercel wagon, the Honda Wagovan, the Honda Civic hatchback from before 1999, the 1980s Corolla hatchback (which I actually owned and miss so much I still have dreams about). Those are the cars I drool over, not muscle car or supercars.



I have never heard that description, that's the definition of "to each their own"... My Drool cars are the 1994-1996 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4, the 1979 Mazda RX-7 that I learned the clutch on, and my Brother's cherry 1988 VW Scirocco 16V.

If I was a Multi Millionaire or a Billionaire, I wouldn't have any of the "Top flight" supercars like the McLaren that you have to send back to the factory for oil changes because they locked it up so tight you can't turn a wrench. I have also never liked Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini etc.


----------



## Bob Reynolds

Whoa,

This thread is on fire.  Here's some more information to consider:

The range on the new EV's such as the Chevy Bolts that I drive are 259 miles.  Even if we take it out and drive it for 100 miles, it will take less than 3 hours to fully re-charged once it is back home and parked in our garage. Most of the time it takes less than an hour to be fully charged because, like most people, we don't drive very far.  Our gas station is in our garage.  

For those that talk about when we have a massive power outage and can not get a charge I will point out two things.

1.  If there is a massive power outage, then you can't get any gasoline either because the gas pumps require electricity to operate.  So that position, doesn't hold gasoline.  

2.  If there is a massive power outage you can use your electric vehicle to power your house for 2-3 days.  (See youtube for how this is done) 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The vehicles all come with an "emergency charger"  It will charge the car (slowly) when it is plugged into any 110 volt outlet.  There are many 110 volt outlets in the United States and in an emergency it will work if a level 2 or level 3 charger is not available.   Think of the "emergency charger" like the "donut spare tire".  It will get you out of a jam, but it's not the final solution.  

I've already pointed out that there is sales tax paid on the electricity, that powers these vehicles, so the government is getting their tax money. 

The negativity coming on the electric cars is from people that do not actually own or drive an electric car and therefore do not understand how these vehicles operate.  There is virtually no maintenance.  There are no oil changes.  All that has to be done are the tires, brakes and cabin air filter.   We go to the gas station to get the car washed--not to buy gas or get the car serviced.  

The people that actually drive the cars and very happy with them.  These cars have the highest customer satisfaction ratings of any car made or sold in America.


----------



## billshack

From what i read about the tesla accident was that there was no driver in the driver seat. tesla cars needs a driver in the seat to act if something goes wrong. there were two people in the car at the time of the accident , one in the back seat a sleep and the other in the passenger seat up front


----------



## Bob Reynolds

billshack said:


> From what i read about the tesla accident was that there was no driver in the driver seat. tesla cars needs a driver in the seat to act if something goes wrong. there were two people in the car at the time of the accident , one in the back seat a sleep and the other in the passenger seat up front



If you do stupid things with a motor vehicle or jet airplane, like not having an actual driver or pilot, bad things can happen.


----------



## Flyover

Path to Autonomy: Self-Driving Car Levels 0 to 5 Explained
					

SAE International’s standard J3016 defines six levels of automation for automakers, suppliers, and policymakers to use to classify a system’s sophistication.




					www.caranddriver.com
				




I wish more people understood this.


----------



## Sparky617

Range anxiety is real, but friends that have EVs don't really have a problem.  As most have stated most of your travels are probably well less than 100 miles a day.  If they do take a trip they can top up at a Tesla supercharger in the time it takes to grab a bite to eat/bio break.  Non-Tesla super chargers are becoming widespread as well.  From a hurricane perspective, I'm 100 miles inland in NC, in 26 years I've had one category 1 hit us, and it was bad enough.  They normally weaken by the time they get this far inland and we never gave a thought to evacuating.  We have had a pretty bad ice storm that took power out for many.  We didn't lose power but many did.  You really couldn't go anywhere anyway as the roads were in pretty bad shape with ice and downed trees.  That you can power your house with an EV for a couple of days is pretty attractive to me.  I saw the new F-150 hybrid can power the house for quite a while with 120vac and 220vac.

The writing is on the wall, EVs are going to be the primary personal vehicles in the next 10 years or so. GM has announced that by 2034 they're going all electric.  Ford is probably going to follow suit.  The Mach E is the first, they are looking at an all electric F-150 which will be a game changer.  Rivian is coming out this year with a very attractive and capable truck and SUV.   They have already delivered delivery vans to Amazon with thousands more on order.   The WSJ recently did an article that looks at the total CO2 output of an EV v an ICE and after about 30,000 miles or so the EV comes out on top regardless of how the electricity is generated.  If it can be solar, wind, nuke, or hydro even better.  This included the CO2 for manufacturing and mining the rare earth elements to produce the batteries.   CO2 capturing is possible with electrical generation, not so much with personal autos, pickups, SUVs, buses, and heavy trucks.

One fuel source I'm surprised hasn't moved beyond fleet sales is compressed natural gas.  Much cleaner, lower CO2 than petrol, and easily refueled.


----------



## Eddie_T

Did I miss it? Has anyone solved the charging problem for those who park on the street at home. Tesla solved the 300 mile problem by suggesting to only go to grandma's once per year at Thanksgiving. Fortunately for all my power outages in the mountains I have been able to drive my Prism to a gas station that has power to get gas for my ICE generator to feed my panel. There's a local radio station that helps people find gas.


----------



## Sparky617

Eddie_T said:


> Did I miss it? Has anyone solved the charging problem for those who park on the street at home. Tesla solved the 300 mile problem by suggesting to only go to grandma's once per year at Thanksgiving. Fortunately for all my power outages in the mountains I have been able to drive my Prism to a gas station that has power to get gas for my ICE generator to feed my panel. There's a local radio station that helps people find gas.



Urban environments and apartments are the real challenge.  But in the largest cities, many don't own personal autos.


----------



## Eddie_T

Sparky617 said:


> Urban environments and apartments are the real challenge.  But in the largest cities, many don't own personal autos.


The ones that don't are not the problem how about those that do? They often can't even park in front of their own house. It wouldn't matter as their cords would be stolen anyway. The heck with them let them use public transit.


----------



## Sparky617

Eddie_T said:


> The ones that don't are not the problem how about those that do? They often can't even park in front of their own house. It wouldn't matter as their cords would be stolen anyway. The heck with them let them use public transit.


I suspect they'll have to build out public charging stations in cities.  They won't be able to charge at home due to the theft issues.  This is why you won't see ICE vehicles disappear overnight.  And likely why GM has set a 13 year time line for going all electric.   The grid is certainly going to need an upgrade to handle the massive increase in EVs.  People charging at home at night doesn't exactly jive with solar power.  One thing that works right now is energy use goes down at night and EVs charging at night uses capacity that exists.  That said, natural gas generators can be spun up and down much easier than a coal plant.  EVs play into using excess generation capacity in a coal fired world.


----------



## Eddie_T

Nuclear fusion would solve a lot of our grid problems and do it cleanly. LPPFusion has an interesting concept a friend of mine worked for them until he passed away. If the concept proves achievable a generating station for a community could be about the size of a two car garage.


----------



## Bob Reynolds

Sparky617 said:


> I suspect they'll have to build out public charging stations in cities.  They won't be able to charge at home due to the theft issues.  This is why you won't see ICE vehicles disappear overnight.  And likely why GM has set a 13 year time line for going all electric.   The grid is certainly going to need an upgrade to handle the massive increase in EVs.  People charging at home at night doesn't exactly jive with solar power.  One thing that works right now is energy use goes down at night and EVs charging at night uses capacity that exists.  That said, natural gas generators can be spun up and down much easier than a coal plant.  EVs play into using excess generation capacity in a coal fired world.



There is not going to be a need for a lot of public charging stations as the range has increased on the electric vehicles.  They simple will not be necessary for the newer electric vehicles.  

Level 3 Fast Chargers are going to be about all that are needed near the interstate exits and rest areas. Most electric cars will be charged at home because that is the cheapest place to charge. Public chargers cost 3-4 times as much per kilowatt hour as charging at home.   They can also be charged at work, but again with the extended range it is not an absolute necessity.

It is nice to park your electric car at the airport parking lot and leave it plugged in so when your flight came back in you were fully charged and ready to go.  I've done it many times.  That is no longer necessary because of the extended range of the newer electric cars.

Some of the electric cars (like the Nissan LEAF)  do have locking charging ports that will not allow the car to be unplugged while it is charging.  Some do not.  All of the electric cars do notify your smart phone when the car has been unplugged or when the car is fully charged and needs to be unplugged from the public chargers.  So if someone tries to steal your cord (which is going to be difficult because it is usually attached to the wall or a pole, then the car will notify your smart phone.  Someone would have to cut the cord (with 240-480 live volts going through it) in order to take the cord.   This cord issue is one being brought up by those that do not drive or own electric vehicles.  Many newer electric cars have cameras on them that connect to your smart phone like a ring doorbell.  If someone is messing with the vehicle then there is a video that can be given to the police.

Of course if someone is using their emergency charger, that one can be stolen just like a catalytic converter can be stolen off of a regular gas powered car.  Maybe we should eliminate gas powered cars because someone might steal the catalytic converter.   

You must have a level 2 charger at home in order to charge your vehicle.  You can't rely on the emergency charger than comes with the car to do it.  That's like putting gas in your car with a 1 gallon gas can.  You can do it, but it's going to take a while.  

Your level 2 charger should be wall mounted and attached to an inside wall if possible.  It should not be one of the "extension cord" like chargers for many reasons including sudden drops that will damage the electronics, damage from the car running over the electronics, moisture from rain or water runoff or someone just walking off with it.  

There are some folks that electric cars are not suitable for.  Those are folks without a dedicated parking spot to charge the car.  If you don't have a place to park the car then it can not be charged.  You can not park on the street and drape a charging cord across the sidewalk.  

 We charge our cars in our garage.  The cord can also reach outside the garage to plug into a car on the carport.  However the charger is mounted on the wall inside the garage.  

If you live in a multifamily apartment or condo and they do not have dedicated electric vehicle charging spots then you can not have an electric car until that apartment or condo installs electric chargers.  The difficulty in getting the car charged will out weigh the benefits of the electric car if there is not a charger at your residence.

Most power plants have incredible amounts of excess energy in the evening.  The sun goes down.  Business and Industry shuts down.  Air Conditioning is used at peak times (when it is hot).  It is not as hot in the evening and the power plants have excess capacity that is going to waste if it is not used.  That's why the power companies are interested in electric cars.  They can be charged off peak--not at 4 PM when the need for air conditioning is at an all time high for homes and businesses.


----------



## Sparky617

Bob Reynolds said:


> There is not going to be a need for a lot of public charging stations as the range has increased on the electric vehicles.  They simple will not be necessary for the newer electric vehicles.



Eddie's point was about city dwellers that can't park directly in front of their houses and apartment dwellers.  They will have a hard time charging at home.  Not everyone has a garage or even a driveway.  I know when I lived in the Philly area when the snow falls people go to great lengths to protect the parking spot they spent an hour clearing.  In sections of cities with row homes parking is at a premium.  Some of the row homes are barely wider than a car is long.


----------



## ekrig

Very interesting discussion so far. I have regular cars (bought new) and we keep them until they are falling apart, so this is not a decision that we'll need to make for probably another 10 years... That said, I do agree that EVs are here to stay and at least one of our cars will likely be replaced by one when the time comes.

One thing that nobody seems to have mentioned so far is the stress on the electric grid of EVs. Right now there's only a small percentage of folks that have EVs and everything works fine, but what about when everyone needs to pull 50 amps every night to charge their cars. Personally I think that the government should stay out of the business of picking "wining technologies" (i.e., solar, wind) via subsidies and instead invest that money in upgrading the electric grid and maybe even make it a national electric network (instead of the current 4 zones). In fact, I suspect that they would achieve the same goal while enabling even more innovation and private investment, and in a more economically sustainable manner long-term.


----------



## Sparky617

ekrig said:


> Very interesting discussion so far. I have regular cars (bought new) and we keep them until they are falling apart, so this is not a decision that we'll need to make for probably another 10 years... That said, I do agree that EVs are here to stay and at least one of our cars will likely be replaced by one when the time comes.
> 
> One thing that nobody seems to have mentioned so far is the stress on the electric grid of EVs. Right now there's only a small percentage of folks that have EVs and everything works fine, but what about when everyone needs to pull 50 amps every night to charge their cars. Personally I think that the government should stay out of the business of picking "wining technologies" (i.e., solar, wind) via subsidies and instead invest that money in upgrading the electric grid and maybe even make it a national electric network (instead of the current 4 zones). In fact, I suspect that they would achieve the same goal while enabling even more innovation and private investment, and in a more economically sustainable manner long-term.



Some believe this will all be powered by unicorn flatulence.  There is a real problem in the thinking of many in the environmental movement with respect to the ability of wind and solar to provide all the power we're going to need in the near term.  Natural gas is going to be the bridge to the future.  That requires fracking and pipelines.

Europeans are importing wood pellets from the SE USA to power "carbon neutral electrical generation." That they call it carbon neutral is a big lie.  Since the forests being cleared aren't in Europe they aren't counting the loss of the trees.  A tree that takes 30 years to reach maturity is burned in 3 minutes (or less) in a wood pellet powered plant.


----------



## bud16415

#Bob Reynolds is a happy user of the technology because he made his setup match his needs. Many people may not have the budget or resources to accomplish the same level of satisfaction but if EV is the only choice out there and the government and the automakers dictate it to us we will have lots of problems to solve before a total switch to electric is possible. Right now it is just an option and the free market is working as it always has and people can decide if they want a horse, gas vehicle, EV, bicycle, or walk/run as Segway that was going to save the planet never flew to far. People also put out CO2 and I have read comparisons of how much CO2 is produced when 4 people run a mile compared to 4 people driving a mile. You would be surprised.



Mass transit is logical but most don’t like the bother. The company I worked for bought 40 12 passenger vans in the 90s and gave/sold them to the employees to form van pools. For 10 years I rode one and paid $12 a week for my seat. We slowly paid back the company and bought fuel and maintained the vans with that money. I was the second guy to get on so if the driver was off that day I was the driver. It was a big win for me in savings along with we didn’t need a second car. When the van died we went to the company and said lets do it again and they told us the federal program they were part of was no longer going on and that was the end of it. The trouble with most mass transit is the first mile and the last mile. Getting from your house to the transit and then getting from the transit to where you need to go. We want it all to be easy and then we want to drive to the gym after work. I once heard a comic say only in America we have electric garage door openers and when the door goes up there is a weight training machine.

The sad part is China is putting on line a new coal powered power plant every week and they will be building the batteries for our cars so we can save the planet.


----------



## Eddie_T

Consider the number of vehicles on the road at this very moment. Now imagine that every one of them sports a 1200 pound lithium ion battery. That's a lot of batteries and and lot to recycle when their life is over. A 15 year life is speculated but what if it's more like eight as some solar users have experienced? Highway use will place a lot more stress on batteries than power walls in the home. Unless there is some yet to be discovered battery technology soon, we are indeed living in a time of unicorn flatulence dreams.
BTW the CO₂ scare has not been scientifically proven yet we spend a lot of money on it.


----------



## Sparky617

bud16415 said:


> The trouble with most mass transit is the first mile and the last mile. Getting from your house to the transit and then getting from the transit to where you need to go.



They were looking at doing commuter rail here in the Raleigh/Durham area.  The airport wouldn't allow the trains to come to the airport, not after spending millions on parking decks.  None of these other areas would be serviced directly by the trains either: Wake Med Hospital, PNC Arena, Carter Findley Stadium, Crabtree Valley Mall, Streets at SouthPoint Mall, Duke Hospital, Rex Hospital, Regency Office Park, Weston Office Park, Centenial Campus Office Park.  The big office park area, Research Triangle Park is a huge, sprawling area where the offices are often a half mile off the road.  The trains will stop at least 1 mile away probably further.  Barring other factors like really expensive parking or bridge or tunnel tolls (think NYC) people will take 2 modes of transportation to work.  They'll drive to the train station, take the train and walk from the train to the office.  When you go to a third mode usage drops very quickly.  It just takes too long as every change in transportation mode easily adds 10 minute to the commute if everything is timed perfectly.  People put up with it in NYC because it costs $7 (probably more now) to cross the bridge or tunnel into the city, and $40+ per day to park in the city.  The subway can get you to most places faster than a car/cab.   I was working on Long Island for almost 2 months a few years ago and took the train into NYC on a day off.  It was $31/round trip.  Monthly passes are probably cheaper, but still.  It was an hour train ride and I still had to take the subway to get where I was going.  I don't know how people can stand it up there.


----------



## Spicoli43

Eddie_T said:


> Consider the number of vehicles on the road at this very moment. Now imagine that every one of them sports a 1200 pound lithium ion battery. That's a lot of batteries and and lot to recycle when their life is over. A 15 year life is speculated but what if it's more like eight as some solar users have experienced? Highway use will place a lot more stress on batteries than power walls in the home. Unless there is some yet to be discovered battery technology soon, we are indeed living in a time of unicorn flatulence dreams.
> BTW the CO₂ scare has not been scientifically proven yet we spend a lot of money on it.



Yeah, The Environ-MENTAL-ists never think anything through. The banning of the Keystone XL destroyed thousands of jobs. The Left says that it will save the Earth if there are no spills, but they can't figure out where the oil came from in the first place, not to mention that trucking it or putting it on a train will massively increase the very pollution they are *Saying* they are trying to avoid. 

It's not like the Right doesn't lie, but the Left doesn't even try to hide their lies and idiocy. 

Now, CO2 is required for life, from the smallest bacteria to the largest animal. CO2 greens the Earth, as proven by NASA imagery. 

And my favorite, the Leftists that preach about the "climate" fly private, own gas hogging vehicles, and build mansions on the beaches that were supposed to be underwater decades ago due to "Global Warming". 

You can't fix stupid.


----------



## ekrig

bud16415 said:


> The sad part is China is putting on line a new coal powered power plant every week and they will be building the batteries for our cars so we can save the planet.



While I believe that the part about new coal power plants is accurate, it is also grossly incomplete. The fact of the matter is that their energy needs have grown leap and bounds due to substantial increases in per capita GDP. Yes, they've build a lot of coal power plants, but also build a lot of nuclear, wind, and solar capacity. In terms of wind, it is a lot more than US and, perhaps most crucially, they've built brand new high power lines to move that energy to where it is needed and are very aggressively researching new power grid management approaches. Thus, I must regretfully admit that they are much better positioned for the future, unlike our idiot politicians (from right and left) gambling with our future from both an economic and environmental perspective.

Many environmental folks clearly either haven't spent 5 mins thinking things through (e.g., they want to get rid of fossil fuels but have no clue how what is needed to fill-in the gaps created by renewables) or are hypocrites (e.g., it's ok to build wind/solar farms but not near their house). People want things to be simple, except that pretty much anything worth doing is seldom simple or easy. Don't get me wrong, I very much want to improve nature and the environment, but I'm also realistic about the challenges. It will be at least one decade for us to develop the necessary technology, let alone build it to scale, which is why I advocate focusing on the grid for now. Also, politicians talking about climate change (again, on either side) are either naive or disingenuous (possibly because they have the pockets of all these donors to fill).


----------



## billshack

they win the Darwinian award ,





__





						Darwin Awards: Evolution In Action
					

Darwin Awards: Vote for the Award Nominees! The Darwin Awards commemorate the (remains of) individuals who contribute to the improvement of our gene pool by removing themselves from it. Enter this portal for stories from the Darwin Awards.




					darwinawards.com


----------



## bud16415

Sparky617 said:


> They were looking at doing commuter rail here in the Raleigh/Durham area.  The airport wouldn't allow the trains to come to the airport, not after spending millions on parking decks.  None of these other areas would be serviced directly by the trains either: Wake Med Hospital, PNC Arena, Carter Findley Stadium, Crabtree Valley Mall, Streets at SouthPoint Mall, Duke Hospital, Rex Hospital, Regency Office Park, Weston Office Park, Centenial Campus Office Park.  The big office park area, Research Triangle Park is a huge, sprawling area where the offices are often a half mile off the road.  The trains will stop at least 1 mile away probably further.  Barring other factors like really expensive parking or bridge or tunnel tolls (think NYC) people will take 2 modes of transportation to work.  They'll drive to the train station, take the train and walk from the train to the office.  When you go to a third mode usage drops very quickly.  It just takes too long as every change in transportation mode easily adds 10 minute to the commute if everything is timed perfectly.  People put up with it in NYC because it costs $7 (probably more now) to cross the bridge or tunnel into the city, and $40+ per day to park in the city.  The subway can get you to most places faster than a car/cab.   I was working on Long Island for almost 2 months a few years ago and took the train into NYC on a day off.  It was $31/round trip.  Monthly passes are probably cheaper, but still.  It was an hour train ride and I still had to take the subway to get where I was going.  I don't know how people can stand it up there.


When we had the 12 people in the van carpooling to work the first thing everyone noticed is the trip took at least an extra 45 minutes. Everyone was wondering why. I pointed out to slow down stop open the door climb in close the door get back up to speed, not to mention all 12 guys didn’t live on the exact same path. It all added up. Then there were 11 guys that were where they needed to be each morning at the proper time and one guy that we would pull up and stop and everyday he was a half block away running with his coat unzipped. He would get in huffing and puffing and say sorry guys it won’t happen again.



After 9/11 our plant about 1 square mile stopped letting city busses pass thru because there were people riding the bus that didn’t work there. The bus stops were all moved outside the gates and in mid winter hardly anyone rode the bus. Because of lack of riders the bus service by the city was stopped.



During the Carter years I worked for a good couple year on the flywheel bus project. Below the floor of the bus we installed a massive flywheel pancake motor. The plan was the bus when at a bus stop would have probes contact the roof and deliver power to spin the flywheel up. The stored energy then would power the bus to the next stop. No batteries no engines just stored energy in a massive spinning disk. We spent millions and millions on the project bought two city busses and made them work as a proof of concept. Carter got one term and that was the end of the flywheel bus.

If I can say anything good about China it is that they don’t change plans every 4 or 2 years with elections.


----------



## ekrig

As has been mentioned on this thread, EVs seem to be better to the environment overall but they are not nearly as clean to the environment has many would like to believe, especially with the current mix of energy sources using in power production. Charging them from solar or wind is nice, but remember that there is no solar at night, so that means either from wind or most likely a gas power plant. Nuclear is good for base load, but there are huge fluctuations in power consumption throughout the day and the only to compensate for those are with coal, oil, or gas power plants. Therefore, unless there a few breakthroughs in battery storage, it is going to take a while.

Plans should not change, drastically at least, with elections. All that says is that politicians don't work for us but for their donor and interest groups, and many of the things that they are changing should not be changed. In fact, on a number of things, it is even highly debatable whether they should be legislating, or regulating via the governmental agencies, on many of the things that they do. Both parties are guilty of this. With regard to energy, on one hand we have the republicans are trying to maintain coal around when they should instead let market economics play out, and democrats are trying to push more subsidies, grants, etc for anyone that promises any supposed new form of green energy when again they should be clear what they are trying to achieve and focus instead on infrastructure while letting everyone innovate whatever needs to happen to get us there.

Significantly off topic: the more I think about it, the more I believe that nearly all laws should only pass congress it they can muster 60% of the votes in both the house and senate. If not even 60% of them can agree that something is worth doing, them maybe they should just stay put and not mess it up.


----------



## Bob Reynolds

Well, to muddy the water even more, they are predicting a gas shortage this summer because there are not enough truck drivers available to bring the gasoline to the gas stations.









						Coming this summer: Gas stations running out of gas
					

Millions of people stuck at home for more than a year are expected to hit the road for much-needed post-pandemic vacations this summer. Good luck finding gas.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Steve123

Eddie_T said:


> Consider the number of vehicles on the road at this very moment. Now imagine that every one of them sports a 1200 pound lithium ion battery. That's a lot of batteries and and lot to recycle when their life is over.



They already recycle the thousands of pounds of steel and aluminum in a car.   Batteries will be easier because there is less mixture with unwanted materials.   Companies are already popping up that recycle the battery materials.


----------



## bud16415

Bob Reynolds said:


> Well, to muddy the water even more, they are predicting a gas shortage this summer because there are not enough truck drivers available to bring the gasoline to the gas stations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coming this summer: Gas stations running out of gas
> 
> 
> Millions of people stuck at home for more than a year are expected to hit the road for much-needed post-pandemic vacations this summer. Good luck finding gas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


A sensational headline for sure but you have to look at the news source as well. The story boils down to covid19 caused people to stay home and not drive. That sounds like a good thing. The lack of demand impacted the supply chain and the tank truck drivers took jobs with Amazon a company that prospered by people staying at home. Seems logical the factors of the free market will reverse and when people start driving more again they will be shopping on their own and Amazons need for more drivers will lessen and fuel truck drivers will return to the jobs they had that likely paid more to start with.

Has Covid19 been disruptive to our economy? Of course it has. Maybe even more disruptive than needed in some cases. Will there be gas shortages and also brown outs this summer? Of course there will we have them every summer. Markets correct but they also lag and are not always set up for peak demands and have to balance with market forces. So we will hear about gas shortages gas prices will jump and EV minded folks will point out if we all drove EV all would be well.


----------



## bud16415

Steve123 said:


> They already recycle the thousands of pounds of steel and aluminum in a car.   Batteries will be easier because there is less mixture with unwanted materials.   Companies are already popping up that recycle the battery materials.


Lets not forget the impending plastic shortage I have been reading about in my canoe/kayak forum. Seems the diminishing use of oil will put a hurting on all the byproducts of oil plastic being one. They are saying buy a canoe now as the poly most are made from will be going away.



Won’t be long milk will be back in glass bottles with paper caps who knows maybe the milkman will come back only driving a EV milk truck this time. All the other plastic garbage will go back to steel, glass, wood/paper like it was when I was a kid. Massive job losses in the plastic industry but huge upturns in steel and glass.



EV batteries likely wont be plastic boxes like we see today as plastic will be a bygone product of the oil age. Cars without plastic I remember that. Rubber tree plantations will be booming again to make all the tires we need. Diesel trucks, locomotives, airplanes will have to be switched to become EV also as Diesel fuel is a separate product cracked out of oil along with gasoline. Even the stuff we make our roads from will have to change when we stop pumping crude out of the earth.     

One thing that will be nice is to go shopping and get paper bags again. I kind of miss them.


----------



## Eddie_T

As we get more wind power there ill be more raptor kill. Maybe dead birds can be recycled into pet food. As the number of EV batteries to be recycled grows I wonder how they will be stored and protected, the logistics of recycling may present a significant challenge. They are classified as hazardous waste thus governed by restrictions in transportation and storage. The costs and challenges for transporting and aggregating used batteries may represent a barrier to widespread reuse.


----------



## Eddie_T

I guess batteries aren't the only problem we face.


----------



## bud16415

Eddie_T said:


> I guess batteries aren't the only problem we face.



Maybe they should only run them at night when the birds are sleeping.


----------



## Flyover

That complaint about birds getting fried by solar plants is years, maybe decades old. It reminds me of a point Ted Nugent made about how buzzards and hawks follow the combines that are harvesting vegetables for vegans because of the hundreds and hundreds of mice and other rodents killed by the equipment.


----------



## Eddie_T

A moot point either way but I thought the earlier reports of bird carcases at solar fields were a mystery being studied rather than streamers (sizzled birds).


----------



## Sparky617

The steamers issue is fairly recent, not decades old.









						Ivanpah Solar Power Facility - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## BuzzLOL

Bob Reynolds said:


> Well, to muddy the water even more, they are predicting a gas shortage this summer because there are not enough truck drivers available to bring the gasoline to the gas stations.



Right now we don't need much gas because nobody is going to work... maybe IF the Welfare/Stimulus/murder survivors VOTE BUYING dollars run out, people will once again feel a need to apply for jobs and go back to work to support themselves...


----------



## Flyover

Huh. I thought I remembered first reading about those birds getting fried in a book, "In the Bubble" by John Thackara, published in 2006. It's possible I'm misremembering where I read about it I guess.


----------



## Steve123

bud16415 said:


> Lets not forget the impending plastic shortage I have been reading about in my canoe/kayak forum. Seems the diminishing use of oil will put a hurting on all the byproducts of oil plastic being one. They are saying buy a canoe now as the poly most are made from will be going away.



If the use of oil decreases, there will be a glut of oil on the market, and the feedstock for making plastics will decrease in price, not increase.   I believe significant amounts of the naphtha used in plastic is from oil, but I think mostly it comes from natural gas anyways.

All that sounds like a bunch of BS by somebody trying to convince you to buy his products.


----------



## ekrig

Steve123 said:


> If the use of oil decreases, there will be a glut of oil on the market, and the feedstock for making plastics will decrease in price, not increase.   I believe significant amounts of the naphtha used in plastic is from oil, but I think mostly it comes from natural gas anyways.
> 
> All that sounds like a bunch of BS by somebody trying to convince you to buy his products.



Actually, naphtha is basically gasoline or very, very close to the final product and you absolutely would not want to use that to make plastics. Plastics are made from a completely different set of carbon molecules. Regardless, I agree with you that this seems unlikely, at least in the next 5 years.

That said, I believe that the comment was about what might happen in the next 10 years if people stop using gas for transportation. And that's complicated... Even if oil is cheap, if refineries are not able to sell naphtha for gasoline at some point in the future, and need to process it to make plastics that is going to make the whole thing a lot more expensive overall. (Loss of revenue from a more valuable byproduct (naphtha), and expense of further processing, mean very likely higher produced cost overall anyway.) If that happens, refineries would have to raise prices or at some point it is just not economic to produce it and they'll just stop or close entirely, which could in time lead to a shortage.


----------



## bud16415

I agree @ekrig. The oil industry was originally set up to refine lamp oil / kerosene and a byproduct gasoline had no usage along with a lot of other stuff. Gasoline was way to flammable to be used in lamps and lamp were the major market. I have read that they were dumping the gasoline and it was getting into waterways and ground water causing quite the problems. Ford came along and figured out gasoline is just what he needed to power his cars. About the same time the country was being electrified and lamp oil was on the fall.



At each level of the cracking process different things are produced and the idea is to use it all splitting the revenue up and ending up with less waste material. I don’t know exactly and I’m not a petrochemical scientist but it’s my understanding plastics come from what would other wise be a waste product.



In general the smaller and lighter an EV the more efficient it is based around fuel weight. It takes something like a 10:1 ratio batteries:gasoline to produce the same energy output. As gasoline is used the weight goes down where a spent battery weighs the same. So in a small sports car the EV can be more efficient than a gas car. If you wanted to build an 80,000lb over the road truck on the other hand you would need 20,000 lbs of batteries compared to say 1,000 of liquid fuel. That would cut greatly into what the capacity they could carry.



We may end up seeing both diesel and gasoline being burned in large trucks, locomotives, farm equipment and airplanes to use the surplus of gasoline EV cars will cause. Ether way the point is reduce oil consumption and with lower consumption that will leave less byproducts for things like plastic. It is all a balancing act.



Will we ever see an electric commercial aircraft or a mainline locomotive? I doubt it.

Like most things a blended approach is most likely the best solution. To many in government see it as white and black and then set a time line that’s super aggressive but just long enough out there that they will miss the end.


----------



## Sparky617

They are working on hybrid aircraft, but given the weight of lithium batteries a pure electric is not feasible with current technology.  Or it would take a really long extension cord and a lot of voltage drop.


----------



## Sparky617

Shifting gears slightly on plastics.  I watched an interesting albeit depressing documentary last night on Netfilx called Seaspiracy,  for all the carping about single use plastics and especially plastic straws the majority of plastics discarded in the ocean are commercial fishing nets and other debris from industrial fishing.  Personally I don't miss straws with one exception, when I have a milk shake I want a plastic straw, not some wimpy a-- paper one that collapses after two seconds.  I don't tend to drink bottled water preferring to bring my own container and refilling as needed.

Plastics are everywhere because they do the job better and with less material than what they replaced.  Unfortunately plastics aren't very economical to recycle.  And despite the chasing arrows recycling symbol on the bottom only a few types actually have a viable market.  And not even all types of container types are recyclable even if they are made of a desirable plastic #1 PET clam shells aren't readily accepted for example.


----------



## bud16415

Sparky617 said:


> Shifting gears slightly on plastics.  I watched an interesting albeit depressing documentary last night on Netfilx called Seaspiracy,  for all the carping about single use plastics and especially plastic straws the majority of plastics discarded in the ocean are commercial fishing nets and other debris from industrial fishing.  Personally I don't miss straws with one exception, when I have a milk shake I want a plastic straw, not some wimpy a-- paper one that collapses after two seconds.  I don't tend to drink bottled water preferring to bring my own container and refilling as needed.
> 
> Plastics are everywhere because they do the job better and with less material than what they replaced.  Unfortunately plastics aren't very economical to recycle.  And despite the chasing arrows recycling symbol on the bottom only a few types actually have a viable market.  And not even all types of container types are recyclable even if they are made of a desirable plastic #1 PET clam shells aren't readily accepted for example.


I always liked the story behind McDonalds and their foam food containers. The foam container kept the food warmer and cleaner. Cost about 1/10 the paper box used about 1/100 the power to make and broke down in the environment faster and was good for the soil. Kind of like the foam they put in potting soil to retain water.



But it was plastic and plastic is bad paper is good and they caved to the pressures and went with cardboard containers. It is still ok to put eggs in foam containers for some reason.

I knew a guy whose father had a patent on a wax-coated cardboard container that folded to a peak and could be opened to make a pour spout, for holding milk. He said he never saw a penny from it as all the milk processing plants said it wouldn’t be as clean as glass bottles. Years after the patent expired guess what milk comes in as a throwaway container.


----------



## Eddie_T

Maybe it's just me, but I don't want any 1200 lb batteries in my life. There has to be a better answer, That's more than the weight of my Prism engine, tranny and 11 gallons of gas combined The inertia of that is just an accident waiting to happen.


----------



## 68bucks

Eddie_T said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I don't want any 1200 lb batteries in my life. There has to be a better answer, That's more than the weight of my Prism engine, tranny and 11 gallons of gas combined The inertia of that is just an accident waiting to happen.


I read that an EV will weigh about 20-30% more than a comparible ICE vehicle but much less range of course. I'm not sure why you are hung up on the weight issue though. The weight wouldn't be any different than comparing a smaller car to a SUV. The SUV could easily weigh another 1000 lbs but you can still stop it fine. The vehicle braking system just needs to be adequately designed. I mean of course a 6000 lb car or truck will take longer to stop than a 3000 lb car but I don't know anyone who researches stopping distance when selecting a vehicle.


----------



## Sparky617

68bucks said:


> I read that an EV will weigh about 20-30% more than a comparible ICE vehicle but much less range of course. I'm not sure why you are hung up on the weight issue though. The weight wouldn't be any different than comparing a smaller car to a SUV. The SUV could easily weigh another 1000 lbs but you can still stop it fine. The vehicle braking system just needs to be adequately designed. I mean of course a 6000 lb car or truck will take longer to stop than a 3000 lb car but I don't know anyone who researches stopping distance when selecting a vehicle.


The braking systems all use regenerative brakes to charge the batteries rather than just creating heat and brake dust. The brakes themselves last nearly the life of the car because of this.  Musk is saying his semi truck will have million mile plus brakes on it because of regenerative braking. The weight in a EV is also located very low in the vehicle giving them a very low center of gravity even in a truck or SUV so they are very hard to flip over.  The batteries are highly recyclable.  Range on many is pretty good even for a long trip. Stop for a break and plug into a charger for 30 minutes and you've bought another 100 miles.  For my lifetime I'll probably always have an ICE or hybrid car, but I can definitely see an EV in my future.  I'm wiring an outlet for a yet to be purchased EV.   Given his build issues I don't see me buying a Musk-mobile.  He has some great tech on his cars but he really needs some car guys in there to get the automobile part right.


----------



## Eddie_T

68bucks said:


> I read that an EV will weigh about 20-30% more than a comparible ICE vehicle but much less range of course. I'm not sure why you are hung up on the weight issue though. The weight wouldn't be any different than comparing a smaller car to a SUV. The SUV could easily weigh another 1000 lbs but you can still stop it fine. The vehicle braking system just needs to be adequately designed. I mean of course a 6000 lb car or truck will take longer to stop than a 3000 lb car but I don't know anyone who researches stopping distance when selecting a vehicle.


I was thinking more of the 1200 lb battery being the hazard with it's inertia in an accident though stopping distance may be a problem too.


----------



## Sparky617

Eddie_T said:


> I was thinking more of the 1200 lb battery being the hazard with it's inertia in an accident though stopping distance may be a problem too.


On the model 3 when it was first released it was 7' longer than the Ford F-150, they made some changes and improved it by 20'.









						Tesla Model 3 Gets CR Recommendation After Braking Update
					

Consumer Reports now recommends the Tesla Model 3, after over-the-air updates improved the electric car’s braking performance by nearly 20 feet—a first for the industry. The update came about a week after Consumer Reports revealed that the Model 3 recorded long stopping distances in CR testing...



					www.consumerreports.org
				




60-0 times:
The Mach-E is 109 feet 
The Model Y is 118 feet 









						2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E First Test Review: We’ve Got the Numbers
					

We track-test Ford’s new Mustang Mach-E EV SUV and see how it compares to the last Tesla Model Y Long Range we ran numbers on.




					www.motortrend.com
				




The Honda Accord (Hybrid) takes 116 to go 60-0.









						2021 Honda Accord Hybrid First Test Review: Bask In the Excellence
					

The perennially solid Honda Accord is just as great in hybrid form, with an asterisk or two about the nicer trim level's wheels.




					www.motortrend.com


----------



## Bob Reynolds

I'm up in North Carolina in the Charlotte area and all of the gas stations are out of gas here because of the shutdown of the pipeline.  I couldn't get any gas today for my F-150 anywhere.  I down to less than 1/4 tank and I'm worried that I might take the truck out and not be able to get it back because there is no gas.   I'm going to drive my Electric Chevy Bolt to the job-sites this week.  Won't be hauling a whole lot, but loaded some tools and essentials in it this evening.


----------



## Spicoli43

Good Luck, Bob. There is some stations in Charlotte saying they have gas...









						GasBuddy - Find The Nearest Gas Stations & Cheapest Prices | Save On Gas
					

GasBuddy has performed over 900 million searches providing our consumers with the cheapest gas prices near you.




					www.gasbuddy.com
				




As far as the hack, It has the Chinese written all over it, both in the element of DUH and with the Biden admin refusing to take action. They can't take action against their friendly partner, even though they are a brutal enemy of the United States.


----------



## Steve123

Spicoli43 said:


> As far as the hack, It has the Chinese written all over it,.....



FBI has said that it was a Russia based group.


----------



## 68bucks

It's a private company that is responsive for thier own network security. Why is it the governments responsibility? Just like when the virus hit, everyone wanted to blame the government for the lack of PPE. Hospitals are private companies responsible to determine their own PPE needs as well as the companies that make the PPE. A private company wants the government to leave them alone to operate....until it hits the fan. Then it's the government's fault and they should be doing something. They know who hacked the pipeline network, they have demanded ransom. It's money extortion deal plain and simple. So are you saying the government should be more involved it these private for profit businesses? I'm not so sure.


----------



## Spicoli43

I don't care whether the private company wants to be babysat or not. When it's a matter of National Security, the Government has to step in. In this instance, it's just a test by China to see how far they can push Biden, which would be until there is no power grid at all because the entire Democrat party is in bed LITERALLY with China.

Russia could also push Biden around since he's an absolute joke, but under a leader like President Trump, Russia knows they would be waxed in a few days. China is a different story.


----------



## Sparky617

A big challenge facing getting EVs into as many driveways as they'd like is going to be the lithium and rare earth problem.  Building new lithium mines is not exactly popular with the locals and environmentalist.  Every "solution" brings its own environmental problem.  Unless we can figure out how to extract lithium from sea water it will involve a big hole in the ground and more waste than actual product.  Not sure it is even in sea water, just pointing out that it is mined.









						Now it's CNN: Electric cars could "wipe out this species"
					

Media narrative shifting?




					hotair.com
				




"Electric vehicles can’t happen without lithium — and a lot of it. Lithium is a critical mineral in the batteries that power electric vehicles. The world will need to mine 42 times as much lithium as was mined in 2020 if we will meet the climate goals set by the Paris Agreement, according to the International Energy Agency. Existing mines and projects under construction will meet only half the demand for lithium in 2030, the agency said.

The United States has only one active lithium mine today. The country will need 500,000 metric tons of lithium carbonate equivalent by 2030, according to research by RK Equity, a New York firm that advises investors on lithium. The entire global lithium carbonate equivalent market last year was 325,000 metric tons, RK Equity partner Howard Klein told CNN Business."


----------



## Steve123

There is no shortage of lithium.   It is a very common metal.   But a handful of companies control the great majority of its production, so Elon would like to see more competition.   And actually, there is not a heck of a lot of Lithium used in a Lithium ion battery.  In South America, they just pump brine onto an open field, and wait for the water to evaporate --- its hard to compete with that cost structure with big equipment digging a hundred feet underground and then milling and processing the ore -- that's why you see few lithium mines up here.

Some of the other metals in a lithium ion battery are pretty expensive (such as cobalt, nickel, manganese , but there are many possible chemistries to use in a lithium ion battery, and there is constant development of better, cheaper chemistries.  So think twice before buying stock in that cobalt mine --- right now the chemistry using cobalt is considered best for most applications, but you could wake up tomorrow morning and somebody has come up with a chemistry that uses no cobalt and works just as good for those applications.


----------



## Sparky617

Elon isn't the only one wanting lithium and the rare earth metals required.  As the link points out we need to significantly ramp up world wide production to meet the demands.  If we don't mine it here we're going to have to import it, and some of it from countries with very loose environmental laws and child labor laws.  So we can protect our backyards, but that is just exporting the pollution elsewhere.  

I'm not against EVs, and will likely buy one for our next vehicle, though it probably won't be for a few years.  We tend to keep cars for the long haul and only replace after they are 10+ years old.  The newest car in the fleet is a 2014, the oldest my 1999 F-150 that isn't a daily driver.  It mainly makes trips to Lowe's and the garden center for stuff I don't want to throw into the Edge or won't fit.


----------



## BuzzLOL

Filled up with gas yesterday... no shortage here in N.W. Ohio... but price is up ~$1/gallon from Trump days... been rising over past 4 months... a fillup has gone from $30s up to $60 now...


----------



## Sparky617

BuzzLOL said:


> Filled up with gas yesterday... no shortage here in N.W. Ohio... but price is up ~$1/gallon from Trump days... been rising over past 4 months... a fillup has gone from $30s up to $60 now...


The Colonial Pipeline supplies the SE USA.  It shouldn't have any impact on NW Ohio.  Part of the price rise is due to seasonal changes in the fuel blends, increased driving with COVID easing and nicer weather.  My driving hasn't really changed, but I've been WFH for 12 years.  I fill up once a month in normal times.


----------



## Eddie_T

I fill up about once per month, usually only 8-10 gallons. I think my tank holds 11.5 gallons and mileage is around 34-38 mpg.


----------



## BuzzLOL

Sparky617 said:


> The Colonial Pipeline supplies the SE USA.  It shouldn't have any impact on NW Ohio.



Gov. NitWhitmer in Michigan is trying to shutdown a pipeline that will probably further effect us just below them in Ohio... And, of course, Jomentia shut down the Keystone Pipeline... and wants to add a big tax on vehicles...


----------



## Sparky617

BuzzLOL said:


> Gov. NitWhitmer in Michigan is trying to shutdown a pipeline that will probably further effect us just below them in Ohio... And, of course, Jomentia shut down the Keystone Pipeline... and wants to add a big tax on vehicles...


Getting to Carbon-Free nirvana is not going to be quick, cheap, or easy.  Wait until all the green weenies figure out how big a mess mining for rare earth metals and lithium creates.  Oil and gas exploration has a relatively light foot print.  Transporting the product can be done via pipelines.  Ores, not so much.  Mining creates a lot of waste, water pollution, and destroys landscapes.


----------



## BuzzLOL

Sparky617 said:


> Getting to Carbon-Free nirvana is not going to be...



Since we're mostly water and carbon, I guess the last step is finishing getting rid of us "carbon-units"... maybe the Covid mRNA shots have already begun that process...


----------



## Sparky617

BuzzLOL said:


> Since we're mostly water and carbon, I guess the last step is finishing getting rid of us "carbon-units"... maybe the Covid mRNA shots have already begun that process...


The world could probably benefit from a couple of billion fewer humans.  I'm volunteering and don't expect anyone else to do so either.  Getting there will be a generational thing and we're already seeing it in Japan, Western Europe, and to a lesser extent the USA and Canada with the less than replacement birthrates.  Where we're not seeing it is in the developing world.  Getting there will have a profound impact to the economy since it is built on growth.  Social Security depends on more people paying in than taking out, we're about to get to a two-to-one worker to beneficiary ratio.


----------



## BuzzLOL

Sparky617 said:


> The world could probably benefit from a couple of billion fewer humans.  I'm volunteering and don't expect anyone else to do so either.



China is obviously the king of getting their population growth under control so they can stay within their own borders. They ask city families to limit to one child, rural families needing help around the farm to limit to 2 kids. Have another kid if the first one dies in childhood. 
Opposing this is the religion industry which gets all of its new customers from childbirth to existing religious families now since most areas no longer allow the forcing of religions on people at spear, sword, arrow, club, fire, or gun point...


----------



## 68bucks

BuzzLOL said:


> Gov. NitWhitmer in Michigan is trying to shutdown a pipeline that will probably further effect us just below them in Ohio... And, of course, Jomentia shut down the Keystone Pipeline... and wants to add a big tax on vehicles...


I don't get the line 5 issue in Michigan. I understand the environmental risk and agree its in a bad spot but they have offered to tunnel under the straights but Governor Goofball flat out refuses. My SIL's job will disappear if they close that line down. The Keystone  XL, it's just an extension of an existing line and has never pumped oil. Don't see how that could increase gas prices other than speculation, which I what drove gas to $4 back when. It's just a political thing. 

I did see there is renewed research on a charging lane to charge EV's on the fly. It's years away but that would solve a lot of the range problem.


----------



## BuzzLOL

68bucks said:


> I did see there is renewed research on a charging lane to charge EV's on the fly. It's years away but that would solve a lot of the range problem.



I see quickly swappable batteries in 4 or 5 standard sizes/shapes/connections as the easiest solution... drop depleted battery out of bottom of vehicle, shove another properly recharged one up and in, and drive off for another 200 miles...


----------



## Eddie_T

Maybe the future is a 4 door EV pickup with the battery in the short bed. And maybe lose the unnecessary giant high-rise look that seems to be in vogue.


----------



## Spicoli43

The Tesla Achilles heel is owning Tesla stock right now. Talk about a blood bath because Elon stopped taking Bitcoin for payment.


----------



## 68bucks

BuzzLOL said:


> I see quickly swappable batteries in 4 or 5 standard sizes/shapes/connections as the easiest solution... drop depleted battery out of bottom of vehicle, shove another properly recharged one up and in, and drive off for another 200 miles...


That was my thought too. I'm a big race fan and a few years ago the started the Formula E series. First time I saw a race I thought cool they will develop a lot of technology from this. Waited for the first pit stop, I thought they would have quick swap batteries of some sort. Big disappointment, the drive just changed cars. Gotta start somewhere I suppose.


----------



## Sparky617

BuzzLOL said:


> China is obviously the king of getting their population growth under control so they can stay within their own borders. They ask city families to limit to one child, rural families needing help around the farm to limit to 2 kids. Have another kid if the first one dies in childhood.
> Opposing this is the religion industry which gets all of its new customers from childbirth to existing religious families now since most areas no longer allow the forcing of religions on people at spear, sword, arrow, club, fire, or gun point...


China is having problems with their one child policy.  They have an abundance of young men without the ability to marry Chinese women because so many were aborted because the parents wanted a boy.   Japan is leading the world on personal care robots because they need robots to handle tasks that they don't have people to do.  Japan is quickly graying as a nation.


----------



## Sparky617

68bucks said:


> That was my thought too. I'm a big race fan and a few years ago the started the Formula E series. First time I saw a race I thought cool they will develop a lot of technology from this. Waited for the first pit stop, I thought they would have quick swap batteries of some sort. Big disappointment, the drive just changed cars. Gotta start somewhere I suppose.


I thought the Israelis were doing this already.  It is a neat idea, go with a standard battery pack that can be dropped out the bottom of the car in 5 minutes or less.  Everyone leases the battery rather than owning it, takes away the range anxiety problem and the concern that you've got a working car with batteries that won't hold a charge.  Try buying replacement batteries for a Nissan Leaf these days.  They are charging more than the car is worth to swap out the batteries.  I haven't looked recently but a few years ago you could get a 3 year old Leaf coming off lease for less than $10,000 US.  They seem to be going for more now at least according to my search on carmax.com.


----------



## bud16415

Yesterday I stopped to get a couple oil filters for my car and the guy asked me if I had the regular one or the EV? I said what’s the EV and he said its electric. I said I didn’t know electric cars needed oil filters, and he said oh right.



Sometimes I feel I have lived too long and I’m living in an alternative universe.

He gave me my two filters and I told him most places give me a little aluminum washer for the drain plug with the filter. He said oh we have those they are in the back on a rack. So I walk back in the store and there they are one aluminum washer in a plastic hang box $8.95. I told him I will flip my old one over.


----------



## Steve123

He was probably thinking of a plug in hybrid (which would have an engine).   

I sometimes am surprised that people expect intelligent advise from a minimum wage kid, possibly hired last week, but figure he must know a lot because he works in the that department.  

I find one of the few things that a dealership is best for is filter and gasket.    They give you the correct gasket, and a lot of times at no charge.   By the way, that gasket needs to be defect-free on both sides, so just flipping it over is not guaranteed to work.


----------



## oldognewtrick

bud16415 said:


> Yesterday I stopped to get a couple oil filters for my car and the guy asked me if I had the regular one or the EV? I said what’s the EV and he said its electric. I said I didn’t know electric cars needed oil filters, and he said oh right.
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes I feel I have lived too long and I’m living in an alternative universe.
> 
> He gave me my two filters and I told him most places give me a little aluminum washer for the drain plug with the filter. He said oh we have those they are in the back on a rack. So I walk back in the store and there they are one aluminum washer in a plastic hang box $8.95. I told him I will flip my old one over.


Did you replace these too?


----------



## Eddie_T

The Tesla design is neat if it weren't for the 7000 cell battery. A little focused plasma nuclear fusion generator would work wonders but we always seem to be 10 years away from fruition.


----------



## Ron Van

oldognewtrick said:


> Did you replace these too?View attachment 25756




Don't forget the Prop Wash


----------



## homerowner

Eddie_T said:


> The Tesla design is neat if it weren't for the 7000 cell battery. A little focused plasma nuclear fusion generator would work wonders but we always seem to be 10 years away from fruition.



O'Reilly's ran out of these soon after they became available...what a shame.



			https://www.oreillyauto.com/flux-500.html?q=flux+capacitor+


----------



## Eddie_T




----------



## Snoonyb

What interest me is the lack of the recycling availabilities, in the promotion of the alternatives;

How nuclear technology is less wasteful than solar and why Kentucky should use it | Opinion

LCSN Europe's green crisis a red flag for New Mexico


----------



## Guzzle

#111, Mr. T, to paraphrase Darth Vader, we've come full circle.  

Instead of a dinghy you haul around a generator.  When the gen runs dry and the car runs down and no one answers their cell phone, you are *truly* out of luck.

But don't forget the base rate:
"An estimated 212,500 vehicle fires . . . in the US during 2018."
Tesla might be ahead of the game.


----------



## Snoonyb

There are also, reputed to be, some models that have incorporated a, wheels in motion, generating system that charges the battery as you drive.

Can't remember where I saw the article.


----------



## Eddie_T

Wait just a minute  ·  ·  ·  you can't invoke perpetual motion here.


----------



## Guzzle

Regenerative.  Electric buses use it for braking.  The DC motors pump current back into the batteries.  It might save you some for city driving.


----------



## Snoonyb

Hoping for loooong downhill.


----------



## Sparky617

Snoonyb said:


> There are also, reputed to be, some models that have incorporated a, wheels in motion, generating system that charges the battery as you drive.
> 
> Can't remember where I saw the article.


Most use regenerative braking, and you can recharge while coasting down a hill but you can't generate and accelerate, climb or maintain a steady speed at the same time.  Add a windmill, that'll work. /sarc.


----------



## Snoonyb

Immediately brings to mind a propeller on a hat.


----------



## Guzzle

Snoonyb said:


> Immediately brings to mind a propeller on a hat.


And yet, not even the hat ever got airborne! 

Gotta' be defective propeller design.


----------



## BuzzLOL

Guzzle said:


> And yet, not even the hat ever got airborne!
> 
> Gotta' be defective propeller design.


Never had a hat blow off?


----------



## Guzzle

Not from the propeller. . .


----------



## Eddie_T




----------



## Sparky617

Eddie_T said:


> View attachment 27105


If only I owned a green vehicle.


----------



## 68bucks

Ran across this and thought it was interesting. 








						Ampex Brands has purchased bakery and cafe chain Au Bon Pain | Federal News Network
					

Yum…




					federalnewsnetwork.com


----------



## Sparky617

68bucks said:


> Ran across this and thought it was interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ampex Brands has purchased bakery and cafe chain Au Bon Pain | Federal News Network
> 
> 
> Yum…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> federalnewsnetwork.com


As EVs become more widely used it will become more economical to recycle the batteries.  That is to be expected.  The battery technology is constantly evolving and how we're doing it today may not be the solution in 10 years.  I read there is a lot of research into solid state batteries that is looking promising.


----------



## Eddie_T

Battery weight and charge time are still prime issues. Batteries with 10 minute charge times are in the works but current charging stations can't handle that. It is expected that batteries with 390 mile capacity and 10 minute charge time might be doable within a few years. Now is not the time to purchase an EV unless you believe in expendables. They are talking about recycling vehicle and battery after 13 years. My GEO Prism is 2x that age, still delivers 30-40 mpg and has a street value of less than $1K. There's no EV in my future.


----------



## Guzzle

The NYT is after Tesla for promising driverless-car abilities that aren't here yet.

One bad solder joint in these 4000 lb vehicles & pedestrians gonna' be toast & Mr. Musk is not liable.


----------



## Snoonyb

They do recommend that you pay attention.

There are, cord cooling tech. that allows for rapid short term charging, however, it also debilitates the present predominate battery structure.


----------



## Eddie_T

68bucks said:


> That was my thought too. I'm a big race fan and a few years ago the started the Formula E series. First time I saw a race I thought cool they will develop a lot of technology from this. Waited for the first pit stop, I thought they would have quick swap batteries of some sort. Big disappointment, the drive just changed cars. Gotta start somewhere I suppose.


That is the answer! The government can take over vehicle ownership and we just exchange them when battery reaches the minimum level. All vehicles can be the same design (as it is with communist housing projects). NASCAR can be eliminated saving a lot of energy.


----------



## Sparky617

I believe Israel had a EV design that used interchangeable batteries that allowed for a quick swap.  Tesla toyed with it for a while.  The way they are building the batteries into the car won't allow for that today.  I think private enterprise is the way to go.  Government housing worked so well (that's sarcasm BTW).


----------



## Eddie_T

Sparky617 said:


> I believe Israel had a EV design that used interchangeable batteries that allowed for a quick swap.  Tesla toyed with it for a while.  The way they are building the batteries into the car won't allow for that today.  I think private enterprise is the way to go.  Government housing worked so well (that's sarcasm BTW).


My post was sarcasm as well. I recall a bumper sticker from decades ago, 

IF YOU LIKE OUR POSTAL SERVICE YOU WILL LOVE OUR NATIONAL HEALTH CARE


----------



## Guzzle

My lost flip phone was found & the provider did nothing what they seemed to say they would do & my choice now is to keep the thing & use up the money or drive a roofing nail thru the heart of this Satanic Device after I cook it with my propane torch & run it thru my table saw with my diamond blade mounted.

But I might take out the battery first.

And a woman leaving the market looked at me in a very appealing way.  It's hard to put a dollar value on that.


----------



## Sparky617

Guzzle said:


> My lost flip phone was found & the provider did nothing what they seemed to say they would do & my choice now is to keep the thing & use up the money or drive a roofing nail thru the heart of this Satanic Device after I cook it with my propane torch & run it thru my table saw with my diamond blade mounted.
> 
> But I might take out the battery first.
> 
> And a woman leaving the market looked at me in a very appealing way.  It's hard to put a dollar value on that.


We went to a concert last week and the only option for tickets was on the app.  No printouts, no physical tickets.  It is becoming a necessity of modern life to have a smart phone.  We traded in the smart phone my daughter and nieces got my now 90 year old FIL and opted for a flip phone.  He'd touch the screen in the wrong place and close whatever app he was in, it was an exercise in frustration.   It would be handy if he could work a smart phone so he could use UBER when my wife can't transport him to an appointment.  His senior apartment complex will take him if it is scheduled on the "right" day.


----------



## Guzzle

We're being played. 
And it's too late for me to set up something in the Alaskan wilderness. 

Some restaurants around here will not take paper money, even tho it is "legal tender for all debts public & private", etc.

The phone for now is wrapped in tin foil, which should make inaccessible via the air waves, it's my own ungrounded Faraday Cage.


----------



## Eddie_T

I haven't fact checked this one:

A single Tesla battery weighing 1,000 pounds requires extracting and processing some 500,000 pounds of materials. At this rate, over the next thirty years we will need to mine more mineral ores than humans have extracted over the last 70,000 years.​


----------



## 68bucks

I wouldn't be surprised mineral extraction is always a high volume to mineral process. Wonder how much dirt gets moved to make a wedding ring? I bet 90% of the ore mined in the last 70,000 years happened in the last few hundred though so it seems a bit misleading. You could say the last 100,000 year and be the same thing. Smelting and extraction has been around for a long time but the volume was minute buy modern standards. I'm interested in how the recycling of those materials evolves, and it will. Too much money on the table not to.


----------



## Eddie_T

There are future plans for recycling lithium batteries for use in home systems however what happens when those reach their end of life? Is yet another recycling feasible and/or economically feasible? Meanwhile we plow blindly ahead ahead assuming some major breakthrough will come. And while we are plowing ahead many small lithium batteries are already hitting the landfills along with their predecessors. 

It can only be with constant scrutinization that we’ll be able to achieve a more sustainable future. Are the politicians bright enough to understand this?


----------



## Spicoli43

The whole push for electric vehicles is by the people that have no idea what they are talking about. Every single part of the electric vehicle INCLUDING the electricity (80%) is produced by fossil fuels. 

As Fox Radio and former NYC Cabbie Jimmy Failla pointed out, the average electric car costs $60K, so that's $820 a month for 6 years at 4% interest... That doesn't include the same maint costs, the cost of electricity at the charger stations, the cost of the charger for the house, the 240 wiring for the house, an upgraded panel for the house etc, etc, etc... 

So, with the average consumer SAVING an average of $80 on gas a month, that $60K car by itself would take 750 months or 62.5 YEARS of driving to become a wash on the fuel savings. It makes ZERO sense. 

Then there's the battery nightmare which is completely against what the environmentalists claim they are against, then there is the wind farm nightmare that is completely against what the environmentalists claim they are against... Then Biden shut down the Keystone pipeline, but trucks and trains pollute the environment while delivering oil, while a pipeline just sits there. 

And the Dems want to end all drilling, but he blames fuel prices on Putin.

Yeah, okay.


----------



## 68bucks

Spicoli43 said:


> The whole push for electric vehicles is by the people that have no idea what they are talking about. Every single part of the electric vehicle INCLUDING the electricity (80%) is produced by fossil fuels.
> 
> As Fox Radio and former NYC Cabbie Jimmy Failla pointed out, the average electric car costs $60K, so that's $820 a month for 6 years at 4% interest... That doesn't include the same maint costs, the cost of electricity at the charger stations, the cost of the charger for the house, the 240 wiring for the house, an upgraded panel for the house etc, etc, etc...
> 
> So, with the average consumer SAVING an average of $80 on gas a month, that $60K car by itself would take 750 months or 62.5 YEARS of driving to become a wash on the fuel savings. It makes ZERO sense.
> 
> Then there's the battery nightmare which is completely against what the environmentalists claim they are against, then there is the wind farm nightmare that is completely against what the environmentalists claim they are against... Then Biden shut down the Keystone pipeline, but trucks and trains pollute the environment while delivering oil, while a pipeline just sits there.
> 
> And the Dems want to end all drilling, but he blames fuel prices on Putin.
> 
> Yeah, okay.


According to KBB the average price of an EV is about $10,000 more than a ICE car. So based on your $80 a month that's 10.4 years based on fuel only. Maintenance is 30-50% less on an EV so there is savings there. Equipment like chargers and such are one time expenditures and could possibly ad value to a home. It's not automatic to assume you need a new panel. Average installation of a level 2 charger is around $2000 so that would add another couple years on the payback based solely on fuel savings. You could just use level 1 charging and save that cost though most people would not like the slow charging, but it's an option. There is no offset in the numbers for tax savings or incentives. If you have a solar or wind system it might save you a lot of money. 
I think most people that are buying EVs are just as interested in reducing emissions as saving a buck. When you say EVs make zero sense that could apply on a pure economic basis today but assumes that there will be no improvement in costs over time. I bet when the automobile was first introduced it was considered only suitable for the rich. I bet it cost a lot more to operate than a horse. I bet it's still cheaper to operate a horse so maybe we should eliminate all automobiles. A lot of innovation starts more expensive than existing technology. If that was the litmus test for whether a new technology is good or bad we wouldn't have a lot of the things we have. Remember when a VHS player cost $600? It all has to start somewhere. 

All that said I think the current administration is trying to make the transition from fossil fuels too quickly. You can't just flip a switch and make it so but in the long haul it will/has to happen.


----------



## Eddie_T

Economics will change when road tax is added in. At present EV owners are getting a freebie at the expense of others. I don't know how they will work that in.


----------



## Spicoli43

68bucks said:


> According to KBB the average price of an EV is about $10,000 more than a ICE car. So based on your $80 a month that's 10.4 years based on fuel only. Maintenance is 30-50% less on an EV so there is savings there. Equipment like chargers and such are one time expenditures and could possibly ad value to a home. It's not automatic to assume you need a new panel. Average installation of a level 2 charger is around $2000 so that would add another couple years on the payback based solely on fuel savings. You could just use level 1 charging and save that cost though most people would not like the slow charging, but it's an option. There is no offset in the numbers for tax savings or incentives. If you have a solar or wind system it might save you a lot of money.
> I think most people that are buying EVs are just as interested in reducing emissions as saving a buck. When you say EVs make zero sense that could apply on a pure economic basis today but assumes that there will be no improvement in costs over time. I bet when the automobile was first introduced it was considered only suitable for the rich. I bet it cost a lot more to operate than a horse. I bet it's still cheaper to operate a horse so maybe we should eliminate all automobiles. A lot of innovation starts more expensive than existing technology. If that was the litmus test for whether a new technology is good or bad we wouldn't have a lot of the things we have. Remember when a VHS player cost $600? It all has to start somewhere.
> 
> All that said I think the current administration is trying to make the transition from fossil fuels too quickly. You can't just flip a switch and make it so but in the long haul it will/has to happen.



Can you get a used Chevy Volt for $8K?... Yes. The replacement battery costs more than that. You can get a new EV for $40K, or a Tesla all the way up to $125K... Name one thing in common with ALL OF THE PEOPLE (Congress Mafia) that are pushing EV's... They are ALL Millionaires. Everybody shouting from the rooftops about "emissions" is PAID by lobbyists for all the industries they claim are Great for people. 

The maintenance costs aren't necessarily less, either. Then there is the possibility someone would need a new battery for their Tesla, which is invoiced below... They are only warrantied for 8 years, and are they covered on used Teslas? 

Why does the switch to electric have to happen? There is absolutely no reason for that, and the people preaching about it fly in private airplanes everywhere and drive Escalades. Don't mention the need is because of emissions, because they are against Nuclear also. 









						Are Electric Cars Really Cheaper to Maintain than Gas? - CECNA Learning Center
					

President Biden would like for everyone to start the switch to electric cars, mostly because of the environmental benefits. But a big part of the appeal of electric vehicles (EVs) is that they’re cheaper to operate, or so most people seem to think. Consumers often assume that, although they’re...




					www.consumereducationcouncil.org
				






			https://www.currentautomotive.com/how-much-does-a-tesla-model-3-battery-replacement-cost/


----------



## 68bucks

Eddie_T said:


> Economics will change when road tax is added in. At present EV owners are getting a freebie at the expense of others. I don't know how they will work that in.


Ohio is implementing a road tax for EVs and hybrids starting in July, $200 and $150 respectively. Most states are doing the same.


----------



## Spicoli43

Here is a pretty good breakdown... There's no way that EV's will ever be cheaper than gas. As long as money exists and there is greedy Mafia Politicians, never...



			https://www.cars.com/articles/what-to-know-before-purchasing-an-electric-vehicle-a-buying-guide-448149/


----------



## Eddie_T

68bucks said:


> Ohio is implementing a road tax for EVs and hybrids starting in July, $200 and $150 respectively. Most states are doing the same.


Good idea but I heard that it's embattled.


----------



## bud16415

I don’t know how many of you remember this guy Joe Newman he was around in the 80s and I just barely remembered him but hating late night TV these days I have been watching Pluto-TV reruns of Johnny Carson after the 11:00 news. A couple nights ago they replayed the show where Joe Newman was his guest. The next day I googled him to find out they made a movie about the guy and I watched it and then I searched more to find lots of scientific stuff of course disproving his claims of his motor being a perpetual motion machine. Then I find he still has a following and people are still building what they believe his motor was based around and are coming up with some interesting results.



I will include a link to the movie and also one of the DIY guys that are to this day still finding his ideas to be somewhat baffling. The movie is a little sad as the process of his invention is shown to how his belief in it finally ruined his life and somewhat lead to insanity before he died.



I just thought you folks might enjoy the movie as I did.


----------



## 68bucks

Back in the 40's they thought TV would never be adopted either. Too expensive, picture quality was bad, almost no programming but here we are with just about every home having multiple TVs. I think a lot of the comments on EVs assume a static world. Cars and batteries will never get better or cheaper. Gas will never cost more. No more charging stations will be built. I bet the same stuff was said about cars in the early 20th century. You had to haul gas because there were no gas stations. Range was poor, roads were bad. Nobody would waste money on one of those. They are the rich man's toy. But again here we are.


----------



## 68bucks

Eddie_T said:


> Good idea but I heard that it's embattled.


Of course it's a battle. EV owners thought they would save that money. They wear out roads same as any other car. I read states are already having funding issues just due to lost revenue from cars getting better milage. Use 1/2 the gas pay 1/2 the tax but still drive the same mileage. A bit of a conundrum.


----------



## Spicoli43

The whole battle over getting rid of fossil fuels simply depends on the voters on the Left that only get their info from the Left. When they find out they are being lied to about everything, it ends. 

Lets take the average out of touch Socialite lady in Los Angeles. When she finds out she won't be able to buy that $35000 designer purse to stuff her Poodle in because it's produced with *GASP* fossil fuels like virtually everything else, it will all end.


----------



## Eddie_T

The achilles heel of electrical cars is still the battery. Unless there is a major major breakthrough in battery technology it's just more of the same.

Each battery cell is slightly larger than an AA cell.
The most popular battery pack supplied by Tesla contains 7,104 18650 cells in 16 444 cell modules capable of storing up to 85 kWh of energy.  In 2015 Panasonic altered the anode design, increasing cell capacity by about 6%, enabling the battery packs to store up to 90 kWh of energy.  More recently, Tesla engineers reconfigured the internals of the battery pack to hold 516 cells in each module for a total of 8,256 cells capable of storing a little more than 100 kWh of energy enabling the cars to enjoy a range of over 300 miles.​


----------



## bud16415

We had an electrical engineer I worked with that drove an 1890-1900 vintage EV to work every day winter and summer from his home to work about 5 miles each way until he retired. Top speed was under 20MPH and I would pass him most morning on my 30 mile commute. We had another engineer that built his own EV and drove it daily close to 20 miles each way. He made his from a vintage 60s Porsche. The only reason he gave up on his DIY EV was he found the car was worth a small fortune and he put it back to original.



In the late 60s the GE location I worked for had a secret project to build prototype EVs with an eye to mass producing them. We set up and built about 50 cars and sold them to the government. The project was called the QT project. They never went into production and it just died. About 10 years later we were building and selling EV lawn tractors.



None of this is relatively new and it is all based around economics. The problem I see is natural economics has not been cooperating so some in government like to help things along a little or a lot. Economics has never done well when forced to change. If the fishermen are hurting make a rule you can’t eat meat on Fridays and you sell 14% more fish. Drive gas prices to $10 per gallon EV will flourish is the mindset of some. It works but not without a lot of pain.



Before Tesla: Why everyone wanted an electric car in 1905


----------



## Eddie_T

I don't know but some say the government by merely catering to the green movement created the incentives that made Elon Musk the wealthiest man ever to live on this planet.


----------



## 68bucks

Eddie_T said:


> I don't know but some say the government by merely catering to the green movement created the incentives that made Elon Musk the wealthiest man ever to live on this planet.


How many kazillionaires has the government created? I know its a lot. Look back over time and the most wealthy people generally have had some sort of government action or legislation that someone capitalized on afterward. Many of those changes came via lobbing. I bet it was even worse 100-150 years ago. I mean you can invent an electrical generation system but unless some government entity says we want to do that in our town and the tax payers will pay for it who else would have ever used one. It would have takes forever to be widely adapted. Tons of government funded R&D was paid for by the taxpayer and was eventually handed off to the private sector to make a bunch of money with. The government is always catering to someone or cause. I suppose that is a role they should pay. Things that take monumental capital to get started are quite often funded by the government. No TVA and some parts of Appalachia are probably still without electricity. Would a private company have built the Hoover dam? Not back in the 30's I bet. Private business seems to always be at odds with the government but they sure make a lot of money from them.


----------



## bud16415

We are lucky we have the Hoover Dam because I personally don’t think it would be possible to build it today. There are a lot of things I don’t think would happen today that are similar. It might not have been pretty but they got things done back then. Look up the LA Aqueduct designed and built by Mulholland opened in 1913. IMO one of the great achievements of all time. Not as well know a project as the Panama Cannel.

I think Ayn Rand had it pegged in 1957 in her book Atlas Shrugged. A great read if anyone still reads novels.


----------



## Snoonyb

Interestingly, musk saw the light, and took a leap of faith. During tesla's development he built and org. dedicated to solving some of the eng. nightmares that the nasa program, wasn't. devised the systems, proposed them, was awarded $ for R&D, and was off to the races.

However, I have some ?. Given the latest speculation, that we will destroy ourselves, in the next 10yrs, how soon will musk have a livable society, on Mars?


----------



## Snoonyb

bud16415 said:


> We are lucky we have the Hoover Dam because I personally don’t think it would be possible to build it today. There are a lot of things I don’t think would happen today that are similar. It might not have been pretty but they got things done back then. Look up the LA Aqueduct designed and built by Mulholland opened in 1913. IMO one of the great achievements of all time. Not as well know a project as the Panama Cannel.
> 
> I think Ayn Rand had it pegged in 1957 in her book Atlas Shrugged. A great read if anyone still reads novels.



AND, who is John Gault?


----------



## Sparky617

bud16415 said:


> We are lucky we have the Hoover Dam because I personally don’t think it would be possible to build it today. There are a lot of things I don’t think would happen today that are similar. It might not have been pretty but they got things done back then. Look up the LA Aqueduct designed and built by Mulholland opened in 1913. IMO one of the great achievements of all time. Not as well know a project as the Panama Cannel.
> 
> I think Ayn Rand had it pegged in 1957 in her book Atlas Shrugged. A great read if anyone still reads novels.


Unfortunately all true.  The environmental reviews would take a decade or more for something like it.  The other unfortunate thing is we've drawn too much water from the dam and the snow pack isn't refilling Lake Meade fast enough.  

EVs don't solve the problem, they shift it.  That said, they will be the future, CAFE standards won't allow manufacturers to ignore going EV for the majority of their fleet and most are heading that way.  The impact to the grid won't be as bad as many think because few people will be charging from zero every day.  The bigger problem is all the mining for rare earth metals and lithium to make the batteries.  Mining is a really "green" activity, or NOT.


----------



## bud16415

Sparky617 said:


> Unfortunately all true.  The environmental reviews would take a decade or more for something like it.  The other unfortunate thing is we've drawn too much water from the dam and the snow pack isn't refilling Lake Meade fast enough.
> 
> EVs don't solve the problem, they shift it.  That said, they will be the future, CAFE standards won't allow manufacturers to ignore going EV for the majority of their fleet and most are heading that way.  The impact to the grid won't be as bad as many think because few people will be charging from zero every day.  The bigger problem is all the mining for rare earth metals and lithium to make the batteries.  Mining is a really "green" activity, or NOT.


It is pretty simple to calculate if we know the oil consumption for the country per year and we then compare energy to energy. Someone smarter than me could come fairly close in approximation the demand on the grid. Just like I don’t fill my tank every day I wouldn’t expect to do a full charge every day. The 2 of us use about 20 gallons of fuel a week or about a 1000 gallons per year at today’s prices say we are spending $4000 per year or $333 / month. If apples = oranges and I know they don’t but if they did raising my electric bill by 333 would more than double my electric consumption. If the whole country doubled their consumption would the grid take it and more so what fuels would need to be used to make the extra electric?



I haven’t heard the magic target price for gas to make the switch to EV payback the cost of the EV etc. Once they hit that mark and factor in new taxes etc they should be selling like hot cakes.

Maybe what I should do is set up a wood fired electric generation mini plant just to supply my home and car with power and the waste heat I can use to heat my home also. Firewood is abundant here so no problem there. Now if I get about 150M others to do the same we would be all set.


----------



## Snoonyb

They also need to solve the recycling, because as it stands, windmills have a neg. P&L when calculated from cost of implementing, too waste, and as it is, only WA has a program for solar, which would put the onice upon the suppliers, for those defunct panels.


----------



## 68bucks

bud16415 said:


> It is pretty simple to calculate if we know the oil consumption for the country per year and we then compare energy to energy. Someone smarter than me could come fairly close in approximation the demand on the grid. Just like I don’t fill my tank every day I wouldn’t expect to do a full charge every day. The 2 of us use about 20 gallons of fuel a week or about a 1000 gallons per year at today’s prices say we are spending $4000 per year or $333 / month. If apples = oranges and I know they don’t but if they did raising my electric bill by 333 would more than double my electric consumption. If the whole country doubled their consumption would the grid take it and more so what fuels would need to be used to make the extra electric?
> 
> 
> 
> I haven’t heard the magic target price for gas to make the switch to EV payback the cost of the EV etc. Once they hit that mark and factor in new taxes etc they should be selling like hot cakes.
> 
> Maybe what I should do is set up a wood fired electric generation mini plant just to supply my home and car with power and the waste heat I can use to heat my home also. Firewood is abundant here so no problem there. Now if I get about 150M others to do the same we would be all set.


That's a good way to look at it I guess. Somewhere out there is the line where it makes sense and where it doesn't. I believe we're going there regardless, I mean there is so much oil then that's it and the harder it gets to extract it the more it tilts the table. I don't know when oil is more valuable for other things beside fuel but it seems like it could happen. It'll be way beyond my years but I think about what I leave behind. The bottom line to me is there are folks that think it's going to happen overnight and it's not. I do think there is growing interest in nuclear again.


----------



## Flyover

Just don't ask anyone to consume or waste less!


----------



## Eddie_T

Maybe the government should throw money at nuclear fusion rather than space, windmills, EV and solar.


----------



## 68bucks

Eddie_T said:


> Maybe the government should throw money at nuclear fusion rather than space, windmills, EV and solar.


They have been doing it for a long time. 




__





						A Brief History of U.S. Funding of Fusion Energy
					





					large.stanford.edu
				



I bet they have money in battery development too.


----------



## BvilleBound

*Elon Musk made a breakthrough with Tesla, just like SpaceX. * Now Ford, GM etc are jumping on the EV bandwagon too, and sales are rising rapidly worldwide.  All because gasoline prices are skyrocketing, or because every buyer is trying to fight Global Warming?  Nope.  EVs are significantly cheaper to build, operate and maintain - with far fewer moving parts.  See this report from Consumer Reports, and  the graphs of worldwide EV sales, below.

https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/EV-Ownership-Cost-Final-Report-1.pdf





*If you live in an area with lots of sun and no tree shadows on your roof,* you can cut costs even further with solar power - which is the cheapest source of electricity on the planet.  Even if you are not concerned about Global Warming, this is one of the best investments a homeowner can make - with much better returns than the stock market if you have 'net-metering' in your state.  See the link below.

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf
*
Renewable energy delivers the lowest cost for electricity, period *- and these studies were done BEFORE the recent spike in gasoline prices:

www.carbonbrief.org/solar-is-now-cheapest-electricity-in-history-confirms-iea


www.iea.org/reports/projected-costs-of-generating-electricity-202


www.irena.org/newsroom/pressreleases/2020/Jun/Renewables-Increasingly-Beat-Even-Cheapest-Coal-Competitors-on-Cost


----------



## BvilleBound

Eddie_T said:


> Maybe the government should throw money at nuclear fusion rather than space, windmills, EV and solar.



*US, European and Chinese governments ARE funding aggressive and costly efforts to turn nuclear fusion into a real source of power.*  Progress has been so significant that private corporations have also stepped in and launched their own projects.  See, for example:

*USA: * U.S. Project Reaches Major Milestone toward Practical Fusion Power

*Europe and ITER:* https://www.iter.org  

*China: * China's Artificial Sun Just Broke a Record for Longest Sustained Nuclear Fusion

*Private efforts:  *

 The chase for fusion energy


A private company just made a huge breakthrough in nuclear fusion


Could commercial fusion power plants get us to net zero? – Physics World


----------



## Sparky617

If I was in the market for a new car today, it would very likely be an EV.  At this point I don't expect to be in the new car market for a couple of years, at least until the supply chain issues are resolved.  By the time I'm ready to pull the trigger there will be a lot more options from Ford, GM, Hyundai, KIA, Toyota, Honda, VW, MB, FCA, BWM, Audi, etc.  If I were buying today it would likely be a Ford Mach-e, or maybe a Hyundai Ioniq 5.  I like the F-150 Lightning, but I'm just not sure I want to spend that much money for a mulch hauler.  I'll just keep my 1999 F-150 on the road until there is a major problem that makes it unreasonable to repair.   It doesn't get driven that many miles so repairs are pretty minor.  Biggest expense will probably be tires, but given the miles I drive it probably 5 years away.  I'd need to replace them more for age than tread wear.  I only drive it to the home center and garden center for the most part these days.  

Musk has done a great service blazing the way to make EVs viable.  The other manufacturers aren't going to cede the entire market to him and are coming out with some strong models.   Even when traveling you don't need to spend hours waiting for your car to recharge.  The software on them can map your route end to end and tell you where the chargers are along the route and how long you'd need to stop at various chargers to complete your journey.  Most of the time you can get your car up to about an 80% charge in 20 minutes at a super charger or about the time it takes for a quick bathroom and coffee break.  A little slower than a fill up at the gas station but not unreasonable.  For 99% of your driving you'll be topping up at home after running a few errands or your commute to work.  I installed a 50amp outlet in my garage for my future EV, with that I'll be fully charged in an hour or so when I get home.  With two EVs we would just switch between the two as we'll never run them both down at the same time.  

By 2030 most of the new cars sold in the USA and Canada will be EVs.  ICE cars will still be around for many years given their usable lifespans.


----------



## Eddie_T

I have been somewhat following LPP Fusion which has no gov funding (the last time I checked). The novelty of it's approach is that each community could have a small fusion energy generator negating the need for long transmission lines. Getting adequate funding has been hard so the experimental team is small and the progress is slow. If the approach is successful we could forget the ugly wind and solar farms and their accompanying recycling problems.


----------



## Spicoli43

The problem everybody that is into EV's ignores is very simple... What do EV's need? Forget the $80K plus cost of a Tesla or the $8K cost for a used Leaf or whatever. Forget the costs for tires and window replacement etc. When the electricity grid goes down, then what happens?

IF, and this is a big IF the politicians fully embrace Nuclear energy, which the Democrats hate, we might be completely fine. Wind farms are a MASSIVE Catastrophic failure for everybody, as exhibited in the Tucker Carlson documentary on Fox Nation. If you watch that documentary, you will change your views about Wind farms.

So, then what? Democrats hate Nuclear, hate Coal, hate Natural Gas... The only way to reliably produce electricity is with fossil fuels. The thought of "Green energy" isn't new, it's just NEW to the thinking of most people because of Dingbat politicians preaching about it like AOC when they have no bloody idea what they are talking about.

So... Tons more EV's from every manufacturer = Tons more electricity needed = Massive increase in fossil fuel usage = Goes absolutely against their entire argument.

Then, when the grid goes down, supply and demand kicks in, so the charging station 45 miles away (if you can get there) isn't charging the normal prices, Jack. It's 3 times the cost. pay it or call a tow truck.

If Hydro were the solution, Fossil Fuels wouldn't account for 80 percent of electricity production circa 2022. 

Solar? I would love free energy from Solar... After 33 years of paying the system off.


----------



## bud16415

KBB says the average price of an EV right now is $56,437. Until a few years ago I never bought a new car always used and I know I wouldn’t be happy spending 60 grand on a tiny EV car. I took a look at the used market and they all seem to be selling for close to $15k and seem to be around 50k-80k miles on them. I gather most of the companies are saying you are covered to 100k miles. As best as I can find the replacement cost in 2025 based on today’s dollars is going to be about $6k average with about $1k in labor.



The prices do seem to vary a lot from one maker to another so it will be a selling point in advance to know that info. I don’t ever once remember anyone buying a car thinking about cost of an engine when they bought it. I did buy my pickup with the 350CI engine because I knew they were so common.



A rapid switch away from gas will likely hurt the poorest people the most with the way it is being done. Like I said above with the two of us using 20 gallons of fuel per week our annual cost is over $4000 and up $2000 in a year. We will get thru that and at some tipping point will have to go EV and the $60 for a new car won’t be fun or the $30k for something used and replacing the consumable stuff.



Then you have the guy working minimum wage at Wal-Mart and say needing 10 gallons of gas per week in his $2000 beater car. He lives where having a charging station is not that easy if he could afford to put one in and paying for a charge if there is one in his neighborhood is going to be at a premium cost. He will be the one locked out of transportation. Most of the country doesn’t have any kind of good mass transit. It will put a lot of people in a pickle.

When I was down in Mexico setting up a plant I was surprised at how small a parking lot we put in for the size of the work force. It was because almost no workers owned transportation and our plant was a long distance from the towns so we picked everyone up in old school busses and brought them to work. Maybe we need to rethink our whole idea of transportation. Or at least slow known the plan so we don’t hurt the people that are at the bottom the most.


----------



## Snoonyb

*bud16415, *instead of running for office, there are those for rent.**


----------



## Eddie_T

I wonder how tire life fairs for EVs, The Ford F-150 Lightning will weigh about 1,600 pounds more than a similar gas-powered F-150 truck. That's like always driving a loaded truck.


----------



## Sparky617

Forget the costs for tires and window replacement etc. 

No different than an ICE.  Brakes on EVs last virtually forever due to regenerative braking.  Oil changes are a thing of the past with an EV.  Overall EVs have lower maintenance costs.  LEAF battery replacement is a problem.  Nissan doesn't want to sell them at a decent price.  You'd think some after market company would fill the void.  The battery problem with LEAF's is a prime reason why I wouldn't consider one on the used market despite their very attractive price.  Attractive only if you don't know about the cost of a replacement battery.  Hyundai has a 10 year warranty on their batteries and power train for the Ioniq EVs.

When the electricity grid goes down, then what happens? For how long?  

The F-150 can feed electricity back to your house during a power failure.  So assuming you've kept the truck charged it can actually be your back up generator for several days per Ford.  If you're in an area with long power failures you're probably a candidate for your own back up generator..  When there is a widespread power failure, gas stations can't pump gas either.  If you and your neighbors all had EVs not every one is going to be pulling power from the grid all night long every night.  My power company already has a program that allows them to control HVAC systems at residences that sign up.  They only offer me a $25 annual credit to sign up, so it is a no sale for me. A similar thing could be done for electric chargers to spread the load out over night.


----------



## bud16415

I was reading some things on line today as to what to expect from going EV. One of the things was that on average expect your electric bill to go up about $38 per month so for 2 cars my guess would be to double that. So lets call it $76.



Right now we use about 15 gallons in her Kia Sportage and 5 gallons in my Kia Soul because I’m retired and her working and the larger car we tend to take it shopping and such. Ether way about 20 gallons of fuel at $4.25 comes out to be about $368 a month in gasoline.



If this can be believed I can save $3500 per year going EV.

Are these numbers even close to correct?


----------



## Spicoli43

Sparky617 said:


> Forget the costs for tires and window replacement etc.
> 
> No different than an ICE.  Brakes on EVs last virtually forever due to regenerative braking.  Oil changes are a thing of the past with an EV.  Overall EVs have lower maintenance costs.  LEAF battery replacement is a problem.  Nissan doesn't want to sell them at a decent price.  You'd think some after market company would fill the void.  The battery problem with LEAF's is a prime reason why I wouldn't consider one on the used market despite their very attractive price.  Attractive only if you don't know about the cost of a replacement battery.  Hyundai has a 10 year warranty on their batteries and power train for the Ioniq EVs.
> 
> When the electricity grid goes down, then what happens? For how long?
> 
> The F-150 can feed electricity back to your house during a power failure.  So assuming you've kept the truck charged it can actually be your back up generator for several days per Ford.  If you're in an area with long power failures you're probably a candidate for your own back up generator..  When there is a widespread power failure, gas stations can't pump gas either.  If you and your neighbors all had EVs not every one is going to be pulling power from the grid all night long every night.  My power company already has a program that allows them to control HVAC systems at residences that sign up.  They only offer me a $25 annual credit to sign up, so it is a no sale for me. A similar thing could be done for electric chargers to spread the load out over night.



Brakes and oil changes are as simple as pumping gas in most vehicles, just takes longer. Maintenance is the big selling point of EV's, but the sticker price makes no sense. If they were $9000, that still wouldn't be acceptable because in 9 years or so you could probably be facing a new battery that's $9000 or more... $15,000 for the Tesla that cost $85000. It's not like everything else would be refreshed, you would still be driving a 9 year old frame. 

There is no figure that adds up EV versus Gas. The only possibilities would be a used EV that never quits and runs forever. It won't be Tesla because everything Elon does is a grand experiment. It might work in 20 years when all the kinks are worked out.

As far as Ford saying that you could use it for powering the house, that's all it is. They are saying you could power the house.

As far as people in areas that suffer long power outages, they fill up all their vehicles before the storm hits, so that is irrelevant.

For anybody that's interested in an EV, I suggest getting an Electric riding lawn mower like I had last year. After that couple of hours of fun and a possible return to the dealer, you might think twice on the technology.


----------



## Spicoli43

bud16415 said:


> I was reading some things on line today as to what to expect from going EV. One of the things was that on average expect your electric bill to go up about $38 per month so for 2 cars my guess would be to double that. So lets call it $76.
> 
> 
> 
> Right now we use about 15 gallons in her Kia Sportage and 5 gallons in my Kia Soul because I’m retired and her working and the larger car we tend to take it shopping and such. Ether way about 20 gallons of fuel at $4.25 comes out to be about $368 a month in gasoline.
> 
> 
> 
> If this can be believed I can save $3500 per year going EV.
> 
> Are these numbers even close to correct?



No, your numbers aren't correct.


----------



## Eddie_T

Sparky, are you saying the extra weight won't impact tire life?


----------



## bud16415

Spicoli43 said:


> No, your numbers aren't correct.


I remember buying my hot tub and asking about electric cost and they told me about a dollar a day. I was skeptical and surprised they were pretty close to correct. It is close to double in the winter as in the summer and I do keep it hotter in the winter.

When I read the $38 a month I suspected that to be a ways off so the factor of 10 is maybe closer $380 a month.


----------



## Spicoli43

bud16415 said:


> I remember buying my hot tub and asking about electric cost and they told me about a dollar a day. I was skeptical and surprised they were pretty close to correct. It is close to double in the winter as in the summer and I do keep it hotter in the winter.
> 
> When I read the $38 a month I suspected that to be a ways off so the factor of 10 is maybe closer $380 a month.



No, you said 20 gallons of fuel at $4.25 comes out to be about $368 a month in gasoline.


----------



## bud16415

Spicoli43 said:


> No, you said 20 gallons of fuel at $4.25 comes out to be about $368 a month in gasoline.


20 gallons per week at 4.25 x 4.33 weeks in a month =368 a month


----------



## Spicoli43

I drive about 72 miles a Month for shopping trips, and 15 miles once a month to the dump (Winter) and twice a month to the dump (Summer). So that's a total of 102 miles a month max. I like driving and used to drive a few hundred miles a week for the fun of it. Gone are those days, I won't go anywhere unless I have to.

President Obama shouldn't have been talking about Obamacare today, he should have used his time at the White House to talk about how they were going to lower the gas prices, because they have until the start of September or so to make a significant dent there under the guise they are doing something for the peasants.


----------



## Eddie_T

We're just speculating and the real problems will probably be worse than we can imagine. It might be a good time to start a towing service and maybe have  a generator/charger on board. The only one I heard off getting to low to charge had a dealer haul it away supposedly to be reset for around $3K. Too many people are believing all the answers are just around the corner.

There was a house in my neighborhood with a solar water heater. I am thinking the panels have been gone from the roof for more years than they were present. It's for sure they didn't enhance the curb appeal of the house.


----------



## Tailgunner

The average cost to install solar panels is from* $10,626 to $26,460* (after tax credit) for a 6kW to 12kW system to power an entire house. The average solar panel payback period is 7 to 12 years, and solar energy saves $600 to $2,000 per year on electricity costs. Makes more sense in Arizona, less so here in Michigan where it is overcast from November until April, or so it seems.


----------



## Spicoli43

Eddie_T said:


> We're just speculating and the real problems will probably be worse than we can imagine. It might be a good time to start a towing service and maybe have  a generator/charger on board. The only one I heard off getting to low to charge had a dealer haul it away supposedly to be reset for around $3K. Too many people are believing all the answers are just around the corner.
> 
> There was a house in my neighborhood with a solar water heater. I am thinking the panels have been gone from the roof for more years than they were present. It's for sure they didn't enhance the curb appeal of the house.



There's 2 houses down the block that have Solar panels, one on the roof and one operating from a spot on the edge of their yard, about the size of a HS stadium scoreboard. Either way like you say, it's ugly. If I see the people outside, I will ask them if there's any benefits, but like Tailgunner says, up North with at least 6 months of Winter, I doubt it.


----------



## 68bucks

Spicoli43 said:


> There's 2 houses down the block that have Solar panels, one on the roof and one operating from a spot on the edge of their yard, about the size of a HS stadium scoreboard. Either way like you say, it's ugly. If I see the people outside, I will ask them if there's any benefits, but like Tailgunner says, up North with at least 6 months of Winter, I doubt it.


I was just reading that solar panels produce 10-25% of capacity with heavy cloud cover. So some benefit but greatly diminished. Seems like you would want a battery for storage. I'm sure that adds a lot to the cost.


----------



## Spicoli43

68bucks said:


> I was just reading that solar panels produce 10-25% of capacity with heavy cloud cover. So some benefit but greatly diminished. Seems like you would want a battery for storage. I'm sure that adds a lot to the cost.



There would have to be some kind of backup storage. I'll have to check into that. I'm wondering if it would add resale value, considering that the new owners wouldn't have to pay for the system.


----------



## Eddie_T

We may just have to get used to ugly as the indoor stuff is kinda bulky too.


----------



## Sparky617

Eddie_T said:


> We may just have to get used to ugly as the indoor stuff is kinda bulky too.
> 
> View attachment 27772


You don't need to put it in your living room.  There are big challenges moving to a carbon free future and it isn't going to happen in my lifetime.  Storage is a big part of the problem and frankly having small, factory built, standardized, modular nuke power would probably be a better solution than utility grade battery back-up.   EVs will be main stream in the next 10 years as the major car companies have committed to the technology.  Battery technology will improve.  The reason EVs didn't work in 1905 was the only battery technology at the time was lead/acid batteries that were heavy and had very limited range.   EV semi trucks face huge challenges because the weight of the current battery tech eats into their cargo capacity.  They can put enough batteries on one to take it as far as a driver can go in a day of driving, but it will reduce his capacity.

As to the weight of the batteries and tire life, it probably will cause them to wear faster but I doubt it would be a 50% reduction in life, maybe 10%.


----------



## Eddie_T

All this and they have yet to prove carbon is our  enemy. Consensus  science rules the day now and the government is our biggest enemy. A warmer ocean gives off more CO₂ but does more CO₂ cause a warmer ocean? Unfortunately the answer one gives depends largely on politics rather than data.

_Carlos Tavares is not just a successful car company boss, but also one of the industry’s great commentators.

The Stellantis CEO questioned the automotive industry’s all-in approach to EVs, saying governments were simply “surfing on public opinion” by legislating in their favour.

His concerns are threefold. First, EV affordability. How, he asked, can the industry “protect freedom of mobility for middle classes who can't afford a €30,000 EV when today they pay half of that? If they can’t afford a new EV, they’ll just keep driving their current, polluting car.”

 Second, making EVs profitably. “If we cannot protect margins, there will be restructuring and there will be social consequences, “he said. In other words, factory closures and job losses.

 Third, “in one decade, mobility devices will be 300-500kg heavier than today. That will bring to the table the topic of materials. The scarcity of them, and renewable ones.”

*Tavares’s solution? “We could have been more efficient with multiple technologies, not one. The choices have not been made by the automotive industry. We should keep that in mind for the future.”*_


----------



## Sparky617

EVs are very likely to be the winning technology for our lifetimes.  Hydrogen fuel cells are a neat concept but until you figure out how to economically separate hydrogen from oxygen in water doesn't do much to mitigate CO2.  Nuke power is one way to do it.  CNG could have been a great bridge technology as it does emit significantly less CO2 and in transportation has a very good weight to power ratio and adding fueling stations wouldn't have been a big problem.  It works very well for fleet vehicles like trash trucks, city buses and other types that go back to a central storage space every night.  But that can be said of EVs too.  

The USPS is missing the boat on their next gen postal truck.  Their fleet could go 75% EV easily for all the suburban routes, even many rural routes could be done with an EV, maybe not out in the very rural Midwest and Mountain West.  But as I watch my mail truck stop at my neighbors house, speed up to my house a distance of 100 feet, stop, speed up to the next house, and so on, an EV is a natural for this.  Regenerative braking will capture most of the energy used to get up to speed between houses.  Instead we're going to have trucks that get less than 10 mpg in actual use.


----------



## Eddie_T

I tend to respect Carlos's opinion over ours. Quenching other approaches by government mandate gets my hackles up. And we still don't have proof that CO₂ is our enemy (it makes the grass grow).

The next generation of mail trucks can be fitted with electrical or gasoline drive trains.
This is the Postal Service’s new mail truck


----------



## Eddie_T

As for our plethora of smaller lithium batteries the government has declared them as non hazardous so they can (and do) go into the landfill.

The reason why more lithium ion batteries aren't recycled boils down to simple economics: the scrap value of batteries doesn't amount to much - perhaps $100 per ton, Cheret says. In contrast, the cost of collecting, sorting and shipping used batteries to a recycler exceeds the scrap value, so batteries tend to be thrown away. Unfortunately, the market does not factor in the social cost of disposal, nor does it factor in the fact that recycling metals such as cobalt has a much lower economic and environmental cost than mining raw materials. So we throw them away by the millions.​​​


----------



## Spicoli43

Well, first off, even if the Liberals in the US were successful in getting rid of Carbon, China never will. It has nothing to do with "Global Warming", it has to do with "United States Warming according to the Green New Deal Preachers"...

Second of all, Carbon is required for LIFE on Earth, don't understand why the Liberals skip that one.

Third, the Human impact on "Rising CO2 levels" is minimal.









						Global Warming Myth Debunked: Humans Have Minimal Impact on Atmosphere's Carbon Dioxide and Climate
					

Global warming activists argue carbon-dioxide emissions are destroying the planet, but the climate impacts of carbon dioxide are minimal, at worst.




					www.westernjournal.com
				




And Fourth, even NASA admits that CO2 makes the Earth green... They tried to kill this webpage, but the Internet remembers everything..









						Carbon Dioxide Fertilization Greening Earth, Study Finds
					

From a quarter to half of Earth’s vegetated lands has shown significant greening over the last 35 years largely due to rising levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide, according to a new study.




					web.archive.org


----------



## Spicoli43

Eddie_T said:


> I tend to respect Carlos's opinion over ours. Quenching other approaches by government mandate gets my hackles up. And we still don't have proof that CO₂ is our enemy (it makes the grass grow).
> 
> The next generation of mail trucks can be fitted with electrical or gasoline drive trains.
> This is the Postal Service’s new mail truck



Good God! that truck is UGLY! Besides that though, if anything hits it, the postal worker will perish, or have 8 million pieces of glass in their body and wish they had perished.


----------



## Eddie_T

But for me the bottom line is you cn't do this with an EV.


----------



## Sparky617

Spicoli43 said:


> Good God! that truck is UGLY! Besides that though, if anything hits it, the postal worker will perish, or have 8 million pieces of glass in their body and wish they had perished.


The glass is safety glass just like all windshields.  Mail trucks spend the vast majority of their miles going less than 25 mph.  The large glass is for visibility and the design follows the function of what the USPS is doing these days.  They needed a vehicle to carry more packages and be able to roll up to roadside mailboxes and put the mail in the mailboxes.  FedEx, UPS, and Amazon don't have to deal with the mailbox issue so they can use normal left drive trucks.  Rivian is building 100,000 EV trucks for Amazon.  

The USPS is only buying 10%? of them in EV.  Despite pleas from the EPA and others they aren't changing the mix.  Part of the problem there is they started the process like 10 years ago and EVs weren't as mature as they are now.


----------



## Sparky617

Eddie_T said:


> But for me the bottom line is you cn't do this with an EV.


No but an EV will beat it off the line.


----------



## Eddie_T

Sparky617 said:


> No but an EV will beat it off the line.


I found that pic and I had a 50 Merc at one time and a Model TT Fordson spark coil that had buzzer points that provided a continuous spark. The Model-T  had four spark coils. Nowadays they use one transformer per cylinder (or they may be coils I have never worked on one).


----------



## Sparky617

Here is a decent article and associated video on whether or not the grid can handle EVs.  Jason has a number of good engineering videos out there.  He has a pretty good one on the problems with towing with an EV.  Towing is one area where EVs just don't cut it today.

Engineering Explained: Yes, The Grid Can Handle EVs - CleanTechnica


----------



## 68bucks

Spicoli43 said:


> Well, first off, even if the Liberals in the US were successful in getting rid of Carbon, China never will. It has nothing to do with "Global Warming", it has to do with "United States Warming according to the Green New Deal Preachers"...
> 
> Second of all, Carbon is required for LIFE on Earth, don't understand why the Liberals skip that one.
> 
> Third, the Human impact on "Rising CO2 levels" is minimal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Global Warming Myth Debunked: Humans Have Minimal Impact on Atmosphere's Carbon Dioxide and Climate
> 
> 
> Global warming activists argue carbon-dioxide emissions are destroying the planet, but the climate impacts of carbon dioxide are minimal, at worst.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.westernjournal.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Fourth, even NASA admits that CO2 makes the Earth green... They tried to kill this webpage, but the Internet remembers everything..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carbon Dioxide Fertilization Greening Earth, Study Finds
> 
> 
> From a quarter to half of Earth’s vegetated lands has shown significant greening over the last 35 years largely due to rising levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide, according to a new study.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> web.archive.org


That first article doesn't debunk the idea that CO2 is contributing to global warming IMO. It just states various sources of CO2 generation and trys to conclude that because human emissions are a small part compared to some sources it doesn't matter. The environment is a complex intertwined system. All those sources he lists, people breathing, animals, microbiological sources, etc. have always been present and the earth worked to balances those imputs. Adding another large input changes the balance and at some point natural systems may be unable to provide that balance in a way favorable to our lives as they are today. There is always "the straw that broke the camels back ." Just because CO2 levels were high 20 million years ago doesn't have any bearing on today at all, there weren't 7 billion people on earth with many living in areas that will be inundated with a significant change in the level of the oceans for example. If the glaciers all melted 20 million years ago and sea level rose 5' or whatever nobody cared because we weren't here. I tend to agree with the concept of human activity impacting the climate negatively based on the close correlations between CO2 levels and global temperatures since the industrial revolution. The ocean both absorbs and releases CO2 and I have read studies that express concern that if the ocean absorbes too mush CO2 it could seriously impact the food chain. The pH of the water will drop as the CO2 increases because it makes carbonic acid. A major collapse in the ocean food chain would be an incredible disaster for humans. 
For me the whole EV thing is more important due to the finite amount of fossil fuels in the ground and the growing expense of extraction, particularly oil. I think the lines of cost to extract and produce gasoline and the cost to produce and operate an EV are converging and at some point will cross, without government influence. As I have said before I don't think the current effort to get it done tomorrow is the best idea. It's a complex issue with complex solutions but I do think it is the right direction. Probably not for me but for my grandchildren or great grandchildren.


----------



## Spicoli43

CO2 could contribute to "Global Warming", but "Global Warming" or the new tag of the Left, "Climate Change" won't exist for us or your Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Great Grandchildren. The Earth naturally warms and cools, and it takes Thousands of years each cycle. 

Humans have absolutely nothing to do with any change to the planet. The thought alone that people believe AOC, a BARTENDER turned member of Congress, that the Earth will explode in then 10 years (7 or so now) is insane. 

The Earth has been through Millions of Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Floods, Earthquakes, Tsunamis, Meteor strikes, whatever killed the Dinosaurs etc., and it's still here. The Natural Gas that is PART of the Earth is not going to kill the Earth.

YOU might see Climate Change in 17000 years if YOU are an Immortal Highlander. For the rest of us, it's not happening. Ever.









						Four Climate Scientists Destroy Climate Change Alarmism - Watts Up With That?
					

This video is going viral on YouTube, earning over half a million views. In this discussion, per the video description: "four climate scientists destroy the anthropogenic global warming myth in response to the Global Climate Action Summit. " Watch and share. Link: https://youtu.be/mqejXs7XgsU




					wattsupwiththat.com


----------



## Eddie_T

Since CO₂ rise lags temperature rise it's hard to see how it can be the initiator unless perhaps  ·  ·  ·   chickens do not lay eggs because they have been observed hatching from them.


----------



## bud16415

Sparky617 said:


> Here is a decent article and associated video on whether or not the grid can handle EVs.  Jason has a number of good engineering videos out there.  He has a pretty good one on the problems with towing with an EV.  Towing is one area where EVs just don't cut it today.
> 
> Engineering Explained: Yes, The Grid Can Handle EVs - CleanTechnica


Lets say I don’t care about the planet or the future of the planet and I don’t care about product cost or the cost of maintaining the automobile. Lets say I’m the guy that buys a new car every 3-4 years and the only thing I really care about is money I’m putting in the tank.



Your video says most EVs get something around 100 MPGe some kind of energy equivalency comparisons. Right now I have a little Kia Soul that might stack up against a small EV and my Soul gets about 30MPG. So the EV is going to be 3 times as efficient in terms of moving me and my car down the road.



Now I care about money only and I realize there is road tax mixed in with gas and at this time the tax on EV hasn’t caught up but for the sake of argument lets say EV is 4 times as efficient and energy is energy as it is to me because I’m only interested in money.



Right now as I said before we use 20 gallons of fuel per week or 20x4.33=87 gallons per month at $4.25 per gallon, that’s $370 a month. If I account for 4x when comparing MPGe I could assume my electric bill will jump $92.5 a month and my gas bill will go from 370 to zero. So I can save $277 per month or $3,300 per year. If I could get 10 years out of it that would be a savings of $33k. If I traded it after 4 years I would have saved $13k in fuel.

I admit I don’t follow this real close but are lots of people talking about the pure dollars they are saving. Why are they marketing to saving the planet when they should be showing people this is a way of keeping money in your pocket. I know if Kia came out with a gas powered Soul that had the same features as mine and the same get up and go and I would get 100-120 MPG I would be trading in today.


----------



## ekrig

bud16415 said:


> Lets say I don’t care about the planet or the future of the planet and I don’t care about product cost or the cost of maintaining the automobile. Lets say I’m the guy that buys a new car every 3-4 years and the only thing I really care about is money I’m putting in the tank.
> 
> 
> 
> Your video says most EVs get something around 100 MPGe some kind of energy equivalency comparisons. Right now I have a little Kia Soul that might stack up against a small EV and my Soul gets about 30MPG. So the EV is going to be 3 times as efficient in terms of moving me and my car down the road.
> 
> 
> 
> Now I care about money only and I realize there is road tax mixed in with gas and at this time the tax on EV hasn’t caught up but for the sake of argument lets say EV is 4 times as efficient and energy is energy as it is to me because I’m only interested in money.
> 
> 
> 
> Right now as I said before we use 20 gallons of fuel per week or 20x4.33=87 gallons per month at $4.25 per gallon, that’s $370 a month. If I account for 4x when comparing MPGe I could assume my electric bill will jump $92.5 a month and my gas bill will go from 370 to zero. So I can save $277 per month or $3,300 per year. If I could get 10 years out of it that would be a savings of $33k. If I traded it after 4 years I would have saved $13k in fuel.
> 
> I admit I don’t follow this real close but are lots of people talking about the pure dollars they are saving. Why are they marketing to saving the planet when they should be showing people this is a way of keeping money in your pocket. I know if Kia came out with a gas powered Soul that had the same features as mine and the same get up and go and I would get 100-120 MPG I would be trading in today.



If your calculations are correct then I agree with you that that's the economics should really be the thing being highlighted. That said, I suspect that that argument is weak in many cases. For example, are $13k savings in fuel after 4 years sufficient to cover the price difference between EV and ICE vehicles? I keep my cars for many, many years and use a lot less gas so I doubt that the economics argument would win. Moreover, most EVs out there are either must more limiting that the vehicles I own (e.g., compared to a Nissan Leaf) or nearly twice the price.


----------



## Eddie_T

There's only one truth that would explain it for me and t doesn't require a video, a bunch of charts  and thousands of words to explain. It comes down to cost per mile to operate and cost per mile for ownership. The cost per mile to operate might be close to the same for all but the cost for ownership per mile will vary considerably.

In my current situation the cost per mile for ownership is past. I drive a 96 Prism which has a tax value of $714 and gets 35-40 mpg.  Any move from that be it ICE or EV is going to raise my cost per mile if ownership is included.

Should I need another vehicle a used Kia Soul would be attractive (but less MPG) so I am holding onto the Prism as long as I can.

It's a bit like phone plans my plan costs me 0.06  per minute on a $25 phone. Those people with unlimited minutes don't know their actual cost per minute because they don't know how many minutes they use so they never divide ownership + plan cost by actual minutes used.


----------



## Spicoli43

bud16415 said:


> Lets say I don’t care about the planet or the future of the planet and I don’t care about product cost or the cost of maintaining the automobile. Lets say I’m the guy that buys a new car every 3-4 years and the only thing I really care about is money I’m putting in the tank.
> 
> 
> 
> Your video says most EVs get something around 100 MPGe some kind of energy equivalency comparisons. Right now I have a little Kia Soul that might stack up against a small EV and my Soul gets about 30MPG. So the EV is going to be 3 times as efficient in terms of moving me and my car down the road.
> 
> 
> 
> Now I care about money only and I realize there is road tax mixed in with gas and at this time the tax on EV hasn’t caught up but for the sake of argument lets say EV is 4 times as efficient and energy is energy as it is to me because I’m only interested in money.
> 
> 
> 
> Right now as I said before we use 20 gallons of fuel per week or 20x4.33=87 gallons per month at $4.25 per gallon, that’s $370 a month. If I account for 4x when comparing MPGe I could assume my electric bill will jump $92.5 a month and my gas bill will go from 370 to zero. So I can save $277 per month or $3,300 per year. If I could get 10 years out of it that would be a savings of $33k. If I traded it after 4 years I would have saved $13k in fuel.
> 
> I admit I don’t follow this real close but are lots of people talking about the pure dollars they are saving. Why are they marketing to saving the planet when they should be showing people this is a way of keeping money in your pocket. I know if Kia came out with a gas powered Soul that had the same features as mine and the same get up and go and I would get 100-120 MPG I would be trading in today.



Ok, what you
KNOW adds up maybe... What you DON'T KNOW would have to be experienced, such as the tax.

1) Do they require charging when not in use? Do the chargers automatically shut off?

2) When you trade in a Tesla after 4 years, based on the dealership not giving a warranty on the battery to the new owner (pretty much a guarantee), what will they give you for it when it would normally be out of warranty after 8 years? Who would buy a 4 year old Tesla knowing they would probably have to fork over $17K just for the battery in 4 years?

Why isn't the battery system a series of maybe 3-5 normal car batteries that cost $200 each or so instead of a massive $17,000 battery like Tesla?

There is a LOT of unknowns to EV's, or at least I don't know them, but I would literally take a Lawyer with me to the dealership to see them squirm over what I see as a rushed gimmick at best.


----------



## Eddie_T

We don't have a history of battery life, vehicle life, maintenance costs or what will be a market value for used EVs so speculation is just speculation.


----------



## bud16415

Even gas engine cars are all over the place in price if all you want to do is go from point A-B. When cash for clunkers came along I helped my buddy haul cars from the dealer to the crusher and we cried just about every trip. We hauled a beautiful Caddy with the northstar engine that looked perfect. Why not give that car to someone that only drives 10 miles a week and it would be perfect? No they put glass in the oil and ran it out of gas trying to kill the engine and it wouldn’t die. They added more gas and another bottle of glass and when it wouldn’t die they said good enough.

If someone can actually prove to me that 100MPGe is true I will keep an open mind and start looking. It is odd when you think about it they may be burning fossil fuels to make the electric and then selling me the electric to charge my car and they can make money selling the electric still and I can cut my cost by 3-4 times. It is kind of a win/win that defies logic.


----------



## Sparky617

bud16415 said:


> Even gas engine cars are all over the place in price if all you want to do is go from point A-B. When cash for clunkers came along I helped my buddy haul cars from the dealer to the crusher and we cried just about every trip. We hauled a beautiful Caddy with the northstar engine that looked perfect. Why not give that car to someone that only drives 10 miles a week and it would be perfect? No they put glass in the oil and ran it out of gas trying to kill the engine and it wouldn’t die. They added more gas and another bottle of glass and when it wouldn’t die they said good enough.
> 
> If someone can actually prove to me that 100MPGe is true I will keep an open mind and start looking. It is odd when you think about it they may be burning fossil fuels to make the electric and then selling me the electric to charge my car and they can make money selling the electric still and I can cut my cost by 3-4 times. It is kind of a win/win that defies logic.


Cash for clunkers killed the used car market and took a lot of great cars off the road for lower income people.  It was an incredibly stupid program.  If you go to the scrap yard today you just find a big hole in the years covered by Cash for Clunkers.


----------



## Eddie_T

Hub motors would eliminate transaxles/differentials but would increase unsprung weight.


----------



## Spicoli43

Now, the Obama admin is pushing the approval of E15 under the guise that it's cheaper. Well, if you don't know what E15 is, that 10 cents or so per gallon savings doesn't ever catch up to the cost of a new engine. 

This is just another example of the Obama admin trying to fix a problem that they created. You don't hire the arsonist to put out the fire. 

They are hoping people buy into the E15 without any research and kill their engines. 

Destruction starts with a D also... Not a coincidence.


----------



## Eddie_T

I've already lost two string trimmers, a chainsaw and had to repair an emergency generator due to E10. I can hardly wait for E15.


----------



## ekrig

Spicoli43 said:


> pushing the approval of E15 under the guise that it's cheaper. Well, if you don't know what E15 is, that 10 cents or so per gallon savings doesn't ever catch up to the cost of a new engine.


That is a big one. Still, even if a vehicle supports it, it is important to realize that E15 is less energy dense than the current E10 standard (i.e., folks will be using more of it), hence I'd be very interested in seeing a cost comparison on whether the cheaper price per gallon is actual worth it or it is yet another hypocritical attempt to sling mud at us.


----------



## Snoonyb

Going to have to resort to flour tortillas, instead of corn.


----------



## bud16415

I know several corn farmers and their prices are going thru the roof this spring. Fuel being a big one along with fertilizer, plus just about everything else. They also grow beans that go to bio fuel and no difference there. So add all the food into the fuel you want the results are not improving a thing.  Corn is best left to drinking.


----------



## Snoonyb

Corn liquer & cow crap, cabbage juice & turnip greens & a whiff of methane, life is Wonderfull.


----------



## 68bucks

I thought the idea of E15 was a bad one I would have thought that the price of ethanol would go up a lot due to the large increase of inputs for that crop although those won't really be felt until this year's harvest. I thought reducing the amount of ethanol in blends might be a better idea especially with summer blends starting to come to the market. Of course the corn mafia would never allow that.


----------



## Spicoli43

ekrig said:


> That is a big one. Still, even if a vehicle supports it, it is important to realize that E15 is less energy dense than the current E10 standard (i.e., folks will be using more of it), hence I'd be very interested in seeing a cost comparison on whether the cheaper price per gallon is actual worth it or it is yet another hypocritical attempt to sling mud at us.



Well, everything from the D party is Hypocritical, they don't try to hide it at all, while the R's like to cheat and steal, but you have to dig for it.

If I had play around disposable cash, I would buy 2 identical cars, the cheapest econo whatever, give them the ultimate tune up, new plugs etc,  fill one with E15 and one with E5 from Costco or wherever. I would then test them, just driving 20 or so miles around here, never going over the speed limit. I would track everything from the MPG to what the plugs looked like at the end of the experiment, which would be 7000 miles or whatever the recommended oil change was for the cars. That would be the full scientific experiment for me, even though E15 isn't a good value like you say.


----------



## 68bucks

Spicoli43 said:


> Well, everything from the D party is Hypocritical, they don't try to hide it at all, while the R's like to cheat and steal, but you have to dig for it.
> 
> If I had play around disposable cash, I would buy 2 identical cars, the cheapest econo whatever, give them the ultimate tune up, new plugs etc,  fill one with E15 and one with E5 from Costco or wherever. I would then test them, just driving 20 or so miles around here, never going over the speed limit. I would track everything from the MPG to what the plugs looked like at the end of the experiment, which would be 7000 miles or whatever the recommended oil change was for the cars. That would be the full scientific experiment for me, even though E15 isn't a good value like you say.


Reading around looks like E10 will get you 3-4% lower milage while E15 will get 4-5% less. So if you get 30mpg now you would get maybe 0.3-0.6 less mpg. That assumes you're using E10 now which almost all regular gas is. The bigger issue is possible engine damage. Cars since 2001 are good with E10 not sure about E15. Again this requirement is brought to you via the corn mafia and their paid representatives. 

So is it better or worse that a party is openly hypocritical as you suggest or that they do their best to deceive you so you are unaware as you also suggest? Either case is the reason I haven't voted for either party the last 2 presidential elections. Don't see it happening this time either. But as long as people keep voting against someone instead of for someone we'll keep getting more of the same.


----------



## Eddie_T

I think my Prism is a 96, it's so old I don't remember. It has survived E10, plugs are original. I have never looked a the plugs but mileage hasn't dropped in 136K miles. The only repairs have been a clutch master cylinder one belt.


----------



## bud16415

68bucks said:


> I thought the idea of E15 was a bad one I would have thought that the price of ethanol would go up a lot due to the large increase of inputs for that crop although those won't really be felt until this year's harvest. I thought reducing the amount of ethanol in blends might be a better idea especially with summer blends starting to come to the market. Of course the corn mafia would never allow that.


The Farmers I know just finally got the last of last years corn cut a few weeks ago. They all have dryers and grain bins and never sell right after the harvest. They know the price trends and try and get in right before the South American markets with some and then will be selling the rest to make room for this years crops. Drying is a big deal as moisture content changes the price and they dry it with propane as a heat source they go thru one of those big tanks in a week and constantly being refilled.


----------



## 68bucks

Most people have no idea of the need let alone the cost of drying grain. Your friends are fortunate to have the storage and drying capability. Most small family farms don't.


----------



## BuzzLOL

Don't think ethanol saves anything unless Govt./taxpayer subsidized...


----------



## Sparky617

BuzzLOL said:


> Don't think ethanol saves anything unless Govt./taxpayer subsidized...


Worse mileage, harder on engines, puts more land under cultivation, leading to more soil loss, fertilizer use, more mono-crop agriculture.  It's a win/win/win/win/win!


----------



## 68bucks

BuzzLOL said:


> Don't think ethanol saves anything unless Govt./taxpayer subsidized...


I spent a lot of time working with the ethanol industry. They were directly subsidized at one point primarily while they were developing. There are still some subsidies for research into using biomass other than food grains. Stuff like crop waste, wood processing waste (sawdust and the like), different grasses. None of it has ever been particularly successful commercially. The yields are still too low. Now there aren't much government subsidies directly to the ethanol produces but the corn mafia successfully lobbied, I think the Bush II administration, to pass the Renewable Fuel Standards act. The act mandates that the refining industry purchase a specified number of gallons each year. The holy grail, guaranteed market. I don't have any issue with the industry I just think it should stand on it's own. What if the government came out and said if you have more than 1 car 1 of then must be an EV?  Oh, I should be careful, don't want to give them any ideas.


----------



## Spicoli43

I was going to buy a Husqvarna riding mower until I read the warranty, which DOESN'T cover the Engine or Transmission! So I did research on Ariens, and the Engine is covered but it says in Bold Black... *"Use of gasoline blends exceeding 10% ethanol voids any and all warranties."*

Everything else besides tampering with the hour meter is in regular type.


----------



## BvilleBound

Sparky617 said:


> Worse mileage, harder on engines, puts more land under cultivation, leading to more soil loss, fertilizer use, more mono-crop agriculture.  It's a win/win/win/win/win!



*If you or other readers are concerned about government subsidies funded by US taxpayers, you should start with the Big Oil industry* -- with receives more than $20 billion every year in corporate welfare.  Yep, the same Big Oil industry that is wildly profitable due to high prices imposed on the backs of consumers.  See:

*Taxpayer funded 'incentives' for the Big Oil industry:*

www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-tax-incentives-encourage-energy-production-fossil-fuels

www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs

www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2018/jul/30/america-spends-over-20bn-per-year-on-fossil-fuel-subsidies-abolish-them

*Big Oil enjoys record profits:*

Exclusive: oil companies’ profits soared to $174bn this year as US gas prices rose

Facts give lie to claim record oil money is being poured into green projects

Exxon posts biggest profit in seven years on high oil prices

Subscribe to read | Financial Times


----------



## Eddie_T

So I suppose you are implying that two wrongs make a right? Subsidies (if any) should not be controlled by politicians who in reality only seek to subsidize themselves. We as a nation of sheeple keep them at the trough.


----------



## ekrig

BvilleBound said:


> *If you or other readers are concerned about government subsidies funded by US taxpayers, you should start with the Big Oil industry* -- with receives more than $20 billion every year in corporate welfare.  Yep, the same Big Oil industry that is wildly profitable due to high prices imposed on the backs of consumers.



You are entitled to your opinion of course, but such information is misleading. I recommend that you start asking what they are *not* telling you.They are not telling you that what you are calling "welfare" is just standard tax policy that *every other US company gets* to take advantage of, including pharma and tech for example. Hence, the so called subsidies are just tax policy. If we want to change tax policy in a way that perhaps makes it more equitable, that would be a good discussion, but singling out a particular industry because someone doesn't like it is tantamount to a making gambling bet on winners and losers with tax payer's money.

Then there is the fact that everyone loves to bash oil and gas companies on the years when gas prices are high. I get it because I feel it to... On the other hand, it is important to realize that US oil and gas companies are "price takers", meaning they simply deal with whatever the market is paying for oil. (If you want to blame the price setters, the primary players are those in OPEC.) Right now the profits of US oil and gas are high, but two years ago they were losing money. That is why there average profit margins often barely break above single digits. The pharmaceutical and tech companies have profit margins well above 20%, and sometimes 30%, and yet I don't see the same kind of disdain. Why?


----------



## 68bucks

I thinks it's absurd to blame the oil industry for making a ton of money because oil prices are really high. As mentioned they don't set the price. As everyone knows the president sets the price so it's his fault.


----------



## Spicoli43

68bucks said:


> I thinks it's absurd to blame the oil industry for making a ton of money because oil prices are really high. As mentioned they don't set the price. As everyone knows the president sets the price so it's his fault.



Obama ended the Keystone pipeline because it isn't "climate friendly" when it doesn't have any emissions compared to trains and trucks. He then ended drilling, which drove the prices that we now see. We were energy independent between Obama's 2nd and 3rd term. The cutest thing is Obama blames the prices on Putin!


----------



## ekrig

68bucks said:


> I thinks it's absurd to blame the oil industry for making a ton of money because oil prices are really high. As mentioned they don't set the price. As everyone knows the president sets the price so it's his fault.


I like your sarcasm... 

It is important to note that I've focused on publicly traded oil and gas (O&G) companies, because national oil companies are another matter. I remember seeing a graph several years ago that the large traded O&G companies (e.g., Shell, BP, Exxon) amounted to only 6% of the world's oil production. Even if that's quite a bit larger now, they are still a small minority. If you think that they set the price, you need to read a bit more on the economics of the O&G business.

I totally understand people's feelings and their desire to blame the O&G companies. At the same time, if you were selling something and someone gave you more money for it, are you going to say "oh, I know that people are hurting so I'm going to charge you less". After all, it is not like there is any guarantee that the next company in the process is going to pass those savings along. Remember that the oil producing companies, refining companies, and independently-owned gas stations are all separate companies.

For what's worth, I was only trying to make people realize that it is not a black-and-white matter as people usually want to believe in. Just a short while ago, some people wanted to get rid of O&G companies and now they are so angry at their dependence... You know, now there are these videos on things to do to lower one's gas usage, etc, and I've realized that I've been doing all of those for years. Whatever the future holds, gas cars, EVs, or something else, I'm fine either way. Just don't ask me to pay for the wants/desires/wishful thinking of other's or to be responsible for the consequences of their choices.


----------



## Sparky617

Here is the video I was looking for on EV Semis.  The truck bit starts around the 5:35 mark, but the whole thing is worth watching.


----------



## Eddie_T

Is green really clean?
Is ‘green’ really clean? | Sharyl Attkisson


----------



## 68bucks

Eddie_T said:


> Is green really clean?
> Is ‘green’ really clean? | Sharyl Attkisson


She seems to just state the obvious. There are not many people who think that any of the green energy sources are 100% clean or free of carbon emissions. We had some discussion after Easter dinner about EVs. One person wanted to go on about how the grid can't possibly handle all the EVs if everyone is using them. It always irritates me when people try to talk in absolutes. EVs are gradually entering the mainstream. Not everyone is going to buy an EV all of a sudden. The grid will evolve as the needs change. It has to this point anyway. 50 years ago most people didn't have ac in their home and if they all went out and installed ac at once the grid wouldn't have been able to handle that either, but here we are with almost every home with ac. I bet back in the early 20th century a lot people thought the automobile was a stupid idea that nobody would ever need. Who in the world needs to go 30 mph? It's way too dangerous! There were very few gas stations or people to work on them. If you wanted to drive further than a tank of gas would take you, you had to plan your route very carefully to make sure you could get fuel. Sound familiar? Yet somehow it all worked out. In my mind so many of the arguements assume a static world. So they throw up their arms and say it will never work, it's a stupid idea. If that's what we did in this country we would still be riding horses and reading by candlelight. JMHO


----------



## bud16415

68bucks said:


> She seems to just state the obvious. There are not many people who think that any of the green energy sources are 100% clean or free of carbon emissions. We had some discussion after Easter dinner about EVs. One person wanted to go on about how the grid can't possibly handle all the EVs if everyone is using them. It always irritates me when people try to talk in absolutes. EVs are gradually entering the mainstream. Not everyone is going to buy an EV all of a sudden. The grid will evolve as the needs change. It has to this point anyway. 50 years ago most people didn't have ac in their home and if they all went out and installed ac at once the grid wouldn't have been able to handle that either, but here we are with almost every home with ac. I bet back in the early 20th century a lot people thought the automobile was a stupid idea that nobody would ever need. Who in the world needs to go 30 mph? It's way too dangerous! There were very few gas stations or people to work on them. If you wanted to drive further than a tank of gas would take you, you had to plan your route very carefully to make sure you could get fuel. Sound familiar? Yet somehow it all worked out. In my mind so many of the arguements assume a static world. So they throw up their arms and say it will never work, it's a stupid idea. If that's what we did in this country we would still be riding horses and reading by candlelight. JMHO


I agree with all you wrote. We have always been an evolving group of people in this country and the majority of the advancements you mentioned and many more came out of this country under capitalism. People saw a need for a better way. They saw that need as a pathway to becoming rich and people worked for them to also share in the wealth allowing them to own the things they made and invented.

My fear is not running out of fuel as much as running out of the system that allowed this all to happen. I fear the people at the top of the pyramid now don’t have that will to do these things any longer at least a lot of them don’t.


----------



## Spicoli43

Ok, what happens when people get to a fast charger that fills their car to about 80% in under an hour? Well, if you're there alone, great. If all 5 stations are taken up, do you go around and ask people how long they have been there, or just park behind one of them and wait? What do you do for those 50 or so minutes waiting, then your 50 minutes of charging? 

Lets make this real fun. Lets add 3 screaming kids per vehicle, so 30 total between 5 charging and 5 waiting. Now, that absolute nightmare might never happen, but can you get to the next charger if it does? Are you stuck there? 

When it takes 5 minutes or so to top off an EV like it does an average car or truck, then I'll listen to the arguments for the multitudes of other problems EV tech has.


----------



## 68bucks

I remember in the late 70's driving to the Florida Keys for vacation. There was a gas shortage and stations all had long lines and all closed early when they ran out. We spent the night in the car at a gas station in an iffy part of Miami because we were out of gas. And that was with a 60+ year old, fully developed system of vehicles and fuel stations. So you could face the same situation with gas too if imports were suddenly cut off. So maybe in say 40-50 years of maturing the system might actually be better. Who knows? I just know we don't import electricity from our enemies.


----------



## bud16415

Spicoli43 said:


> Ok, what happens when people get to a fast charger that fills their car to about 80% in under an hour? Well, if you're there alone, great. If all 5 stations are taken up, do you go around and ask people how long they have been there, or just park behind one of them and wait? What do you do for those 50 or so minutes waiting, then your 50 minutes of charging?
> 
> Lets make this real fun. Lets add 3 screaming kids per vehicle, so 30 total between 5 charging and 5 waiting. Now, that absolute nightmare might never happen, but can you get to the next charger if it does? Are you stuck there?
> 
> When it takes 5 minutes or so to top off an EV like it does an average car or truck, then I'll listen to the arguments for the multitudes of other problems EV tech has.


Fair enough. Now picture the country as it is now with all gas powered cars and everyone has a gas pump at home they use for filling their cars for all trips say of 150 miles or less. The only time you go to the gas station would be when you are taking a trip and not near your home. All the local mini-marts will be a thing of the past for gas. They will lose that income stream so they may or may not be able to hang on selling loto tickets and coffee. No one will willingly want to buy power away from the home for their cars as it will cost much more. If Grandma lives 100 miles from you then when you get to her house you will say mind if I charge my car before we leave and you will plug into her fuel pump.



The real place charging will be done away from the home will be people doing long road trips. What percentage of say the average persons usage is that is the question.



Now you have to take a look at the intermediate steps along the way. maybe the most critical will be 50/50 as I see it as a tipping point most haven’t thought about. Lets say there are 50% of the population that maybe most of us fall into that will be able to switch over to a filling station at home and even afford an EV without much pain. Now you have the people being left behind and the gasoline infrastructure trying to run on half the consumption The corner convenience stores will become the blacksmiths and the buggy whip companies of the future. I’m sure there were a point when the horse people started hurting and the hay growers were wondering what to do as well when autos replaced horses.



Change is never easy.

As a side note 18 months ago we didn’t have to buy any fuel from our enemies.


----------



## Sparky617

68bucks said:


> She seems to just state the obvious. There are not many people who think that any of the green energy sources are 100% clean or free of carbon emissions. We had some discussion after Easter dinner about EVs. One person wanted to go on about how the grid can't possibly handle all the EVs if everyone is using them. It always irritates me when people try to talk in absolutes. EVs are gradually entering the mainstream. Not everyone is going to buy an EV all of a sudden. The grid will evolve as the needs change. It has to this point anyway. 50 years ago most people didn't have ac in their home and if they all went out and installed ac at once the grid wouldn't have been able to handle that either, but here we are with almost every home with ac. I bet back in the early 20th century a lot people thought the automobile was a stupid idea that nobody would ever need. Who in the world needs to go 30 mph? It's way too dangerous! There were very few gas stations or people to work on them. If you wanted to drive further than a tank of gas would take you, you had to plan your route very carefully to make sure you could get fuel. Sound familiar? Yet somehow it all worked out. In my mind so many of the arguements assume a static world. So they throw up their arms and say it will never work, it's a stupid idea. If that's what we did in this country we would still be riding horses and reading by candlelight. JMHO




I posted this a few pages ago. 

Here is a decent article and associated video on whether or not the grid can handle EVs. Jason has a number of good engineering videos out there. He has a pretty good one on the problems with towing with an EV. Towing is one area where EVs just don't cut it today.

Engineering Explained: Yes, The Grid Can Handle EVs - CleanTechnica


----------



## Eddie_T

Collectively everyone seems sure the system will evolve as things have in the past. However this time they are betting on batteries. All we need is weightless or small batteries. Although Elon Musk is doing better than NASA in space he still relies on others for battery technology. Unless someone discovers a lightweight fast charging or easily replaceable battery it ain't gunna work. At the present people grumble over the lines at gas stations. I saw lines the last time I was out just because one station has gas priced 2¢ less than one up the street. We need reporters such as Sharyl to remind us of the obvious that we want to ignore.

Charging is never going to be as fast as filling a gas tank and neither is exchanging batteries. The bottleneck is going to be the charging stations unless everyone can charge at home. The thieves stealing catalytic converters now will move on to stealing charging cables. Meanwhile the affluent will charge in the privacy of their garages.


----------



## Spicoli43

bud16415 said:


> Fair enough. Now picture the country as it is now with all gas powered cars and everyone has a gas pump at home they use for filling their cars for all trips say of 150 miles or less. The only time you go to the gas station would be when you are taking a trip and not near your home. All the local mini-marts will be a thing of the past for gas. They will lose that income stream so they may or may not be able to hang on selling loto tickets and coffee. No one will willingly want to buy power away from the home for their cars as it will cost much more. If Grandma lives 100 miles from you then when you get to her house you will say mind if I charge my car before we leave and you will plug into her fuel pump.
> 
> 
> 
> The real place charging will be done away from the home will be people doing long road trips. What percentage of say the average persons usage is that is the question.
> 
> 
> 
> Now you have to take a look at the intermediate steps along the way. maybe the most critical will be 50/50 as I see it as a tipping point most haven’t thought about. Lets say there are 50% of the population that maybe most of us fall into that will be able to switch over to a filling station at home and even afford an EV without much pain. Now you have the people being left behind and the gasoline infrastructure trying to run on half the consumption The corner convenience stores will become the blacksmiths and the buggy whip companies of the future. I’m sure there were a point when the horse people started hurting and the hay growers were wondering what to do as well when autos replaced horses.
> 
> 
> 
> Change is never easy.
> 
> As a side note 18 months ago we didn’t have to buy any fuel from our enemies.



The EV aspect of refilling will work for home station people that only commute 30 miles or less or whatever. That's it, though. The other arguments about prices of the vehicle and batteries are the glaring problems for them.

As far as the mini marts, they don't make enough on gas to even mention it, at least according to some owners I have talked to, including an old neighbor. The attraction of having gas pumps is so people buy everything else in the store while they are there. A pump and drive off doesn't make them any money. If I remember correctly, one owner said the profit was 2 cents a gallon or less. I saw one report a long time ago that said the average gas station in a small city makes $80K a month on the garbage right by the register. That's why they own the joint.

It's not that they are trying to usher in EV's, it's that they are trying to control us under the guise that they are trying to "save the planet" that has been through Millions of Earthquakes, Tornadoes, Hurricanes, Meteor strikes, Tsunamis, etc. and is just fine. "Global Warming" is a global hoax, so they quietly changed it to "Climate Change", which hasn't happened in 70,000 years.

Can't have a non polluting pipeline, but can transport oil in polluting Trains and Semis. That's called a Democrat Mascot Face Palm, Kids...


----------



## bud16415

Spicoli43 said:


> The EV aspect of refilling will work for home station people that only commute 30 miles or less or whatever. That's it, though. The other arguments about prices of the vehicle and batteries are the glaring problems for them.
> 
> As far as the mini marts, they don't make enough on gas to even mention it, at least according to some owners I have talked to, including an old neighbor. The attraction of having gas pumps is so people buy everything else in the store while they are there. A pump and drive off doesn't make them any money. If I remember correctly, one owner said the profit was 2 cents a gallon or less. I saw one report a long time ago that said the average gas station in a small city makes $80K a month on the garbage right by the register. That's why they own the joint.
> 
> It's not that they are trying to usher in EV's, it's that they are trying to control us under the guise that they are trying to "save the planet" that has been through Millions of Earthquakes, Tornadoes, Hurricanes, Meteor strikes, Tsunamis, etc. and is just fine. "Global Warming" is a global hoax, so they quietly changed it to "Climate Change", which hasn't happened in 70,000 years.
> 
> Can't have a non polluting pipeline, but can transport oil in polluting Trains and Semis. That's called a Democrat Mascot Face Palm, Kids...


Oh don’t get me wrong I’m in no way a proponent of forcing any technology that is not yet ready for primetime down our throats. The reason gasoline and automobiles came to be is because oil was being extracted from the ground for kerosene for lighting homes and they had an abundance of this byproduct stuff called gasoline that was too flammable and dangerous for lamps and they had no use for it and were actually dumping it. Ford came along and put 2+2 together. The government didn’t come in saying horses were bad the automobile stood on its own and was a desired product and fuel was cheap and abundant.



This business of manipulation of markets comes later.



I would buy an EV when and if it made real logical reason to do it. I’m not deluding myself I have to do it to save the world. I will do it when it gets me from point A to point B in a reasonable way I like.

This hurrying things along like making gas prices double in order to flip the logic don’t really work. People know when they are being manipulated and when pain is caused in the process push back. On the other hand when everything is too simple people stop looking for the next best thing. Incentive is key to it all not passion.


----------



## Eddie_T

The sad thing is that the majority of the voting public never hears what we are discussing. Even Sharyl's reporting in my area is @ 00:30 and what she reports might be obvious to a few of us but not to the general public. Meanwhile the schoolkids are being force fed the 'green' crap to bring home to mommy and daddy..


----------



## Spicoli43

Yes. I would buy an EV if it was $10,000 and the battery cost $500... Not a $50,000 Tesla with an 8 year warranty on a battery that costs $17,000 now, probably $30,000 in 8 years. 

None of it makes sense, none of it, and that's from me that desperately tried to get the Electric riding mower last year that was WAY TOO SOON for primetime. 

The Democrats HAVE TO artificially lower the gas prices soon before midterms. Of course, they will have to say something good happened in Russia since they blamed it on Putin and not Biden destroying our energy independence.


----------



## Eddie_T

The government is a real loser. Nothing to do with EV but look at the money the government spends trying to artificially restore the balance of nature in Yellowstone. The reality is there is no balance in nature it is a floating point like a bowling handicap.


----------



## bud16415

Eddie_T said:


> The sad thing is that the majority of the voting public never hears what we are discussing. Even Sharyl's reporting in my area is @ 00:30 and what she reports might be obvious to a few of us but not to the general public. Meanwhile the schoolkids are being force fed the 'green' crap to bring home to mommy and daddy..


I don’t really have an issue with being green or moving in the direction of green. I much prefer smashing my aluminum can putting it in a plastic barrel in the basement and once a year taking the barrel in and getting some cash for the scrap as opposed to filling the landfill or tossing them out the car window.



Kids need a perspective and an honest perspective on “green” as it relates to efficiency and that it is a goal not a religion.



I worked my whole working life building diesel electric locomotives. We were hybrid before anyone knew what hybrid was. Close to 50 years ago we were building some pretty powerful locomotives and also pretty dirty. I was out west one time and the CEO of one of the major railroads was giving us a talk and he related his costs for fuel to us and told us for one penny price per gallon in fuel in one year he has spent the same amount as the entire fleet of locomotives. He said it works in reverse and if we could improve our fuel efficiency by that same one penny amount he would be scrapping and buying new 1000s of new locomotives from us. You better believe we started making better locomotives and the byproduct was they were also cleaner. In the end our cost to haul a ton of whatever from point A-B was so many times better than over the road trucking it was ridicules. That’s where the piggyback container concept came about and trucking and rail worked together so well.

We never had much luck in this country convincing people to travel on trains though. Remember the auto train where when you got to Fla your car was waiting for you?


----------



## Sparky617

bud16415 said:


> I don’t really have an issue with being green or moving in the direction of green. I much prefer smashing my aluminum can putting it in a plastic barrel in the basement and once a year taking the barrel in and getting some cash for the scrap as opposed to filling the landfill or tossing them out the car window.
> 
> 
> 
> Kids need a perspective and an honest perspective on “green” as it relates to efficiency and that it is a goal not a religion.
> 
> 
> 
> I worked my whole working life building diesel electric locomotives. We were hybrid before anyone knew what hybrid was. Close to 50 years ago we were building some pretty powerful locomotives and also pretty dirty. I was out west one time and the CEO of one of the major railroads was giving us a talk and he related his costs for fuel to us and told us for one penny price per gallon in fuel in one year he has spent the same amount as the entire fleet of locomotives. He said it works in reverse and if we could improve our fuel efficiency by that same one penny amount he would be scrapping and buying new 1000s of new locomotives from us. You better believe we started making better locomotives and the byproduct was they were also cleaner. In the end our cost to haul a ton of whatever from point A-B was so many times better than over the road trucking it was ridicules. That’s where the piggyback container concept came about and trucking and rail worked together so well.
> 
> We never had much luck in this country convincing people to travel on trains though. Remember the auto train where when you got to Fla your car was waiting for you?


Bud,
Given your background, why haven't we electrified freight railroads in the USA?  The North East corridor is largely electrified for passenger rail but freight remains diesel/electric.  Is it the heavier loads of freight versus passenger rail?  Can't it be fixed by adding more locomotives like you do on freight anyway?  Or does the electrical capacity of the lines come into play?


----------



## Spicoli43

Eddie_T said:


> The government is a real loser. Nothing to do with EV but look at the money the government spends trying to artificially restore the balance of nature in Yellowstone. The reality is there is no balance in nature it is a floating point like a bowling handicap.



Yes, nature can take care of itself without a bunch of humans arrogantly thinking they can control the narrative. It's just insanity that all these sheep are running around spouting off about "Climate change" when the last time the Earth was 1 degree cooler, nobody currently alive was born yet.


----------



## bud16415

Sparky617 said:


> Bud,
> Given your background, why haven't we electrified freight railroads in the USA?  The North East corridor is largely electrified for passenger rail but freight remains diesel/electric.  Is it the heavier loads of freight versus passenger rail?  Can't it be fixed by adding more locomotives like you do on freight anyway?  Or does the electrical capacity of the lines come into play?


I’m not up on all the details being retired and where fuel costs are right now but yes it is all economics and competition.



Most transit rail is all electric and in transit cars each car has its own propulsion system and the loading for passengers is really low compared to freight. The actual passenger trains are a mix and some run full electric when near and in cities and then between cities switch. Transmission costs and safety are the big factors in wide-open stretches of country. The biggest change that took place over the last 10-15 years I worked was the switch from DC-AC in traction motor design. The distance between the rails limits the size of the motor and some was taken up with gearing and with DC a large part was commutator not needed with AC. We had the DC traction motor over 1000 HP x 6 per locomotive and it was at the limit of technology. They were very popular HP to size and we sold spin offs to the drilling industry and marine industry.



I think the way fuel cost are now it is just going to be passed on from the railroad to who they supply another factor of the high inflation that’s going to drag us down. Cost go up consumption goes down they print more money and your money is worth less and the spiral begins. The couple senators that voted against the green deal may have saved the country or at least slowed it down as last report I saw if that was added in we would likely be at 25% inflation and that would be a spiral imposable to pull out of.



I’m sure the railroads are pulling their hair out right now as even if they wanted make changes they would be too uncertain to do them.



As a side note we built rapid transit cars in my plant for many years and still made propulsion equipment for them until shortly before I retired. It was an amazing business but all the costumers were cities and governmental bodies. The competitors were all overseas and highly subsidized by their governments and it was a nightmare of a business.



We always had a strong presence in the off road mining trucks making motorized wheels.



We got into the battery business before I left making giant liquid salt batteries that had to stay hot enough to keep these salts molten to work. They were going to be used for the power grid management.



We were in the windmill business for about 10 years china was building our product and we in Erie were building a competitors product that was much better than what we were marketing under our name made in China. When it came out the product we were making was better selling much better we were told by corporate to get out of the business.

When I was a young man things in business and industry all seemed so logical and straight forward. About half way thru none of it seemed logical anymore.


----------



## Sparky617

bud16415 said:


> I’m not up on all the details being retired and where fuel costs are right now but yes it is all economics and competition.
> 
> 
> 
> Most transit rail is all electric and in transit cars each car has its own propulsion system and the loading for passengers is really low compared to freight. The actual passenger trains are a mix and some run full electric when near and in cities and then between cities switch. Transmission costs and safety are the big factors in wide-open stretches of country. The biggest change that took place over the last 10-15 years I worked was the switch from DC-AC in traction motor design. The distance between the rails limits the size of the motor and some was taken up with gearing and with DC a large part was commutator not needed with AC. We had the DC traction motor over 1000 HP x 6 per locomotive and it was at the limit of technology. They were very popular HP to size and we sold spin offs to the drilling industry and marine industry.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the way fuel cost are now it is just going to be passed on from the railroad to who they supply another factor of the high inflation that’s going to drag us down. Cost go up consumption goes down they print more money and your money is worth less and the spiral begins. The couple senators that voted against the green deal may have saved the country or at least slowed it down as last report I saw if that was added in we would likely be at 25% inflation and that would be a spiral imposable to pull out of.
> 
> 
> 
> I’m sure the railroads are pulling their hair out right now as even if they wanted make changes they would be too uncertain to do them.
> 
> 
> 
> As a side note we built rapid transit cars in my plant for many years and still made propulsion equipment for them until shortly before I retired. It was an amazing business but all the costumers were cities and governmental bodies. The competitors were all overseas and highly subsidized by their governments and it was a nightmare of a business.
> 
> 
> 
> We always had a strong presence in the off road mining trucks making motorized wheels.
> 
> 
> 
> We got into the battery business before I left making giant liquid salt batteries that had to stay hot enough to keep these salts molten to work. They were going to be used for the power grid management.
> 
> 
> 
> We were in the windmill business for about 10 years china was building our product and we in Erie were building a competitors product that was much better than what we were marketing under our name made in China. When it came out the product we were making was better selling much better we were told by corporate to get out of the business.
> 
> When I was a young man things in business and industry all seemed so logical and straight forward. About half way thru none of it seemed logical anymore.


I was thinking the long haul stuff using overhead power, not transit using the third rail.


----------



## bud16415

Sparky617 said:


> I was thinking the long haul stuff using overhead power, not transit using the third rail.


They do use the overhead catenary wires and pantograph in some location. The voltages are very high to keep conductor size down and can’t be insulated so like the third rail they can have safety issues. Then there are tunnels that would cause a whole new set of problems as right now the locomotives barely fit thru the old tunnels.



Then there is the issue of locomotives run in a consist of two or more normally and would all be drawing a huge amount of power from almost one location on the catenary.

I’m sure it could be done as they are planning to electrify the country for EVs and that also is no little task. Anything can be done given enough time and money. The conditions to warrant the change have to be met first. So by the time we are spending $40/gallon for gas there may be a strong incentive to electrify the railroads. As long as they are at it they might as well put in new rail beds as what we have now is some very old stuff that limits any kind of high-speed rail.


----------



## Eddie_T

Is the return path through the rail or a catenary wire?


----------



## Sparky617

I think the Washington DC to Boston line is electrified.  The line from here in NC to Washington is not.  As I recall the line from Philadelphia to Harrisburg and beyond wasn't electrified, but I could be wrong on that.  I rode it once, but that was a long time ago.  I used to ride the Amtrak line from Princeton Junction NJ to 30th Street Station in Philadelphia many years ago as a daily commuter for several months.   I know most of the cross country stuff is not.  The cross country tunnels must be bigger though because they run the double decker passenger rail cars on some of it.   I could see stringing a couple of electric locomotives together could be a pretty big load on the overhead lines.


----------



## bud16415

Eddie_T said:


> Is the return path through the rail or a catenary wire?


I’m not positive but I believe the return path is the rails and the rails are grounded at each support pole. It is a complex setup as the locomotive has to transfer on the fly between its own power when entering a city and the catenary power. We sold locomotives all around the world so we dealt with all kinds different gages and power setups.  
I was never real involved in that stuff.


----------



## BuzzLOL

All new EVs should be made with the capability of quickly dropping the discharged battery out the bottom and a charged one back up and in...


----------



## BuzzLOL

68bucks said:


> As everyone knows the president sets the price so it's his fault.


When you have someone stinking up our White House that hates working people, responsible people, homeowners, businesses, business people, landlords, cripples, and senior citizens, we see the results in super high gas prices, horrible policies,  unneeded wars, and horrendous inflation!


----------



## Spicoli43

BuzzLOL said:


> All new EVs should be made with the capability of quickly dropping the discharged battery out the bottom and a charged one back up and in...



They should be mounted in the trunk like an amplifier would be mounted, and removable like you say. Tech will eventually catch up I assume, but it went backwards with the giant brick "smart phones".


----------



## Sparky617

The sled concept used on EVs is a pretty good design. Early EVs, including Tesla's had batteries that were easily exchanged.  I'd bet with the super chargers the need for quick swapping was eliminated.  You can get an EV up to 80% charge in about 20 minutes.  The last 20% is much slower.  With an 80% your good for several hours of highway driving.  Most people don't take hours long trips on the highway daily.  

Apartment and urban dwellers will present a challenge for at home charging, but as EVs become a larger portion of the global fleet the charging infrastructure will grow to meet the demand.  I think CNG powered cars and trucks should have expanded beyond fleets, but that never seemed to become an option.


----------



## Snoonyb

The tanks take up more space in the P/U bed, than a tool box.

Received my Regis. renewal for my 2003 CUMMINS, and the bottom note in the, charges for detail, was Electric Surcharge, so t's coming.


----------



## Sparky617

Snoonyb said:


> The tanks take up more space in the P/U bed, than a tool box.
> 
> Received my Regis. renewal for my 2003 CUMMINS, and the bottom note in the, charges for detail, was Electric Surcharge, so t's coming.


CNG tanks?   On a pickup they could go under the bed between the rails.  It only makes sense that electric surcharges will be coming as the number of EVs goes up.  Gas tax is a primary source of road building money, though at both the state and federal level they siphon off gas tax money into the general funds.


----------



## Snoonyb

You're correct, however, with some creative engineering, the pop. In CA was limited because they were usually mounted in the bed, for capacity.

CALTRANS used to be the default for major trans. repair, until an earthquake, several lawsuits and the Hollywood fwy being repaired months ahead of CALTRANS projected. Now a lot is open for bid.


----------



## Eddie_T

Even 20 minute charge times will create tremendous bottlenecks and result in 'charge rage'. Also there are a lot of assumptions as to what people normally do or don't do. My experience has been that people don't like to be limited, they want to do whatever they want, whenever they want w/o planning. I don't even sign up for provider controlled water heating. 

After socialism and government control becomes the norm the government will prolly own all the EVs and we just rent one with the capability needed. Instead of charging stations or battery swapping we just exchange EVs at strategically located government EV pools. Maybe the trunk with our luggage will be modular for easy transfer to the the next neutral gray government EV. No worry about keeping up with the Joneses, they will be controlled just like you.


----------



## bud16415

Eddie_T said:


> Even 20 minute charge times will create tremendous bottlenecks and result in 'charge rage'. Also there are a lot of assumptions as to what people normally do or don't do. My experience has been that people don't like to be limited, they want to do whatever they want, whenever they want w/o planning. I don't even sign up for provider controlled water heating.
> 
> After socialism and government control becomes the norm the government will prolly own all the EVs and we just rent one with the capability needed. Instead of charging stations or battery swapping we just exchange EVs at strategically located government EV pools. Maybe the trunk with our luggage will be modular for easy transfer to the the next neutral gray government EV. No worry about keeping up with the Joneses, they will be controlled just like you.


It is all a matter of what the general population feels ok in sharing as a group resource. You and I have been taught thru life that our mode of transportation is a personal choice handed down from above. On the other hand we have no problem driving on roads and highways that are the property of the collective. Some people have water wells and have a personal source of water others are ok signing on to a collective water and sewer system and sharing in the cost. A few people make their own power but find storage a problem so they revert to the collective grid as storage and backup.



Would you feel better if the government stayed out of EVs all together? I know I would. Would you feel better knowing a private company ran the EV auto exchange you mentioned rather than the government? I know I would.



The city I lived in had a bus service that would haul people around the city and even ran routes out into the surrounding small towns. Every morning driving to work thru the city or driving home I would see busses driving around with no one in them except the driver and once in a while I would see a couple people riding. Most of them were over 65 and rode for free. People in this country have fallen in love with personal transportation and being able to go when and where they want. If factors change that it is a big shift in the thought process, especially in rural America.



You mentioned controlled water heating and our local Electric CoOp has this where they give you a better rate and also a huge tank free water heater just for signing up. The tank holds at least twice what mine does and most people never notice because of the capacity. I knew a dairy farm that had two of them and once in a while they would cut the power right when it was time to clean up. That became a problem they had to work around a couple times a year.

Point is we share a lot more than we think. I saw a poll someone did the other day and they asked how many people thought they would be ok if suddenly they had to live 100% off the grid. The answer was something like 60% said no problem. Wishful thinking IMO I bet the real number is closer to .01%. I just hope we never have to find out.


----------



## BuzzLOL

Spicoli43 said:


> They (EV battery) should be mounted in the trunk like an amplifier would be mounted, and removable like you say. Tech will eventually catch up I assume, but it went backwards with the giant brick "smart phones".


Tesla battery is 1200 lbs... you gonna lift that out of the trunk?
Hence reason for dropping it out the bottom... popping charged one back up in... hopefully a one minute process... a master computer somewhere keeps track of age/value of your old/discharged and new/charged battery... and still have good trunk space, as well...


----------



## Sparky617

Ford made an Plug In Electric version of the Fusion.  The trunk was useless, you could carry a weeks worth of groceries in it for a small family.  Traveling would be a challenge for any more than a couple because the trunk was so limited you'd need to use the backseat for baggage.  The Ford C-Max Energi model was (plug in version) was more useful.  Hybrids will have their place, and if I was looking for a new truck, I'd give the Maverick hybrid a long hard look, for my needs it is all the truck I need.  If I was a contractor I'd probably look at the full electric F-150 Lightning.  The hybrid version of the Fusion still had a usable trunk, though smaller than the pure ICE version.   With the sled design used by pure EVs the center of gravity is very low so they are very stable and handle extremely well.  The Rivian truck and SUV are very capable, but also very expensive, vehicles with a sled design.  Rivian is also making delivery vehicles for Amazon Prime.


----------



## Sparky617

The Ford Fusion was a plug in electric hybrid, not a pure EV.  With additional batteries filling the trunk to give you some range as a pure electric.


----------



## bud16415

You can always buy a EV Extender and leave it in the garage 99% of the time and hook it up for a long trip.


----------



## Eddie_T

I suspect that if I asked someone that had owned 5 EVs how much they had paid for ownership (or lease) it would be a bit more than I have invested in my trusty old Prism.

A true hybrid would have a constant speed highly efficient ICE constantly charging the batteries while traveling. Then if better batteries miraculously came along the vehicle wouldn't have to be trashed.


----------



## Eddie_T

Mobileye, an innovative company in Jerusalem that was purchased by Intel a few years ago, plans to introduce robotic taxis—no drivers—into the mix, to begin with in Tel Aviv and Munich, Germany. Last week, Mobileye unveiled its autonomous "robotaxi," showcasing a 40-minute (amazingly accident-free) ride around Israel's capital, Jerusalem.


----------



## BuzzLOL

2016: One of biggest supporters of driverless cars was beheaded by his driverless car as it went under a shiny semi trailer at high speed that it didn't see because sun was reflecting off it...








						Tesla driver dies in first fatal crash while using autopilot mode
					

The autopilot sensors on the Model S failed to distinguish a white tractor-trailer crossing the highway against a bright sky




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Spicoli43

BuzzLOL said:


> 2016: One of biggest supporters of driverless cars was beheaded by his driverless car as it went under a shiny semi trailer at high speed that it didn't see because sun was reflecting off it...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla driver dies in first fatal crash while using autopilot mode
> 
> 
> The autopilot sensors on the Model S failed to distinguish a white tractor-trailer crossing the highway against a bright sky
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com



From that article...

"The accident comes at a time when Americans have just started to become more comfortable with letting machines take the wheel. "

Homie say WHAAAAAA??? I have never heard of that, and I can barely get in a car driven by another human, let alone a robot... I have never heard someone say to me or say on TV that they would be "comfortable" with that.


----------



## 68bucks

Spicoli43 said:


> From that article...
> 
> "The accident comes at a time when Americans have just started to become more comfortable with letting machines take the wheel. "
> 
> Homie say WHAAAAAA??? I have never heard of that, and I can barely get in a car driven by another human, let alone a robot... I have never heard someone say to me or say on TV that they would be "comfortable" with that.


I agree. I don't know what use the self drive thing is at least at this point. I would have a hard time letting go of the wheel and would have my hands right by the wheel. Might as well be driving.


----------



## Spicoli43

68bucks said:


> I agree. I don't know what use the self drive thing is at least at this point. I would have a hard time letting go of the wheel and would have my hands right by the wheel. Might as well be driving.



That one car they show on commercials parallel parking itself would be fine, but that's it.


----------



## BuzzLOL

Driverless car/van would be a boon for the blind and handicapped if they are ever perfected to human levels... stop killing passengers, pedestrians, and other drivers... 
Many people complain when they see a vehicle go by and the person in the driver's seat is sleeping...


----------



## Snoonyb

There are also single passenger, short run, aircraft.

Give one a whole new perspective about skeet.


----------



## Spicoli43

If perfected, self driving cars would be great for I-5 around Seattle where a lot of drivers put on their makeup or read the paper anyway.


----------



## 68bucks

Spicoli43 said:


> That one car they show on commercials parallel parking itself would be fine, but that's it.


Haha, not on your life! I don't trust the darn thing to drive straight on the highway, I'd never trust it in a tight maneuver. Maybe when the computer carries the insurance I'll give it a go. Till then I'll take the responsibility. I would like to see a car park itself though.


----------



## BuzzLOL

68bucks said:


> I would like to see a car park itself though.


There's production cars that do that... proximity sensors and all that...


----------



## 68bucks

BuzzLOL said:


> There's production cars that do that... proximity sensors and all that...


I know I've seen the commercials. Have you ever seen or better yet been in one doing it? That's what I'd like to see. Looks simple on TV.


----------



## Eddie_T

For a little less than a Maverick I can have this original F-1;


----------



## Flyover

Self-driving has 5 or 6 levels, ranging from (0) no self-driving at all, like a car from the 80s, up through (5) to where you can just get into the backseat and nap until you arrive at your destination. Most new cars today are at level 2 or 3 if they have the thing that helps you stay in your lane or brake faster to avoid rear-ending someone. Self-parking might be level 3 or 4. (I can't remember the exact scale and I'm currently being too lazy to look it up.) Cruise control is at level 1 or 2 I think.

When level 5 becomes widely adopted, that is where we will start to see changes in how houses, neighborhoods, cities and infrastructure are designed, and they will not be backward-compatible with non-self-driving cars, for the same reason Microsoft Word is not backward-compatible with typewriters. You come to Microsoft Word with an ink ribbon and say "Where do I put this?" and Word stares blankly and says "in a museum."

As always, there will be cognitive dissonance about level 5 driverless, with people simultaneously complaining about the new technology/expressing sentimentality for the past, while eagerly and mindlessly lining up to get the latest shiniest thing, or happily accepting when it is bought for them. Same for EVs.

Technology is always changing, both cars and the grid itself will respond to consumer demand, and people will adapt their concept of normal to whatever they're used to lately. The important thing then becomes not whether or not to get an EV but to remember that technology adoption is a choice, and it's usually better to make choices after thinking them through than because it's what everyone else is doing or because it's the path of least resistance (to whatever extent those things are different anyway).

Sometimes I'll use my old hand-powered tools instead of electric power tools, not because I actually think they're faster or do the job better (though they do that anyway in some cases) but to remind myself that it's a choice and that I value certain things over others.


----------



## Spicoli43

Eddie_T said:


> For a little less than a Maverick I can have this original F-1;
> 
> View attachment 27828



Yes. This, not that.


----------



## Sparky617

Eddie_T said:


> For a little less than a Maverick I can have this original F-1;
> 
> View attachment 27828


I'd be even less likely to have a load of mulch dumped into that then I would a new Maverick.


----------



## Spicoli43

I would park a Maverick next to a Jurassic Park pile, and nobody would know the difference.


----------



## Eddie_T

Part of my resistance to technology change is nostalgia and loss of the feel that one can actually do something themselves. I purchased three vehicles new that I never went back the the dealer but maintained them myself. I used to do little modifications like freeflow exhaust systems and CD ignitions where the spark coil became a transformer and the ignition points lasted until the rubbing block wore out. Now that stuff is standard and computer controlled.

Beginning with my 85 Cherokee I no longer knew what all the tubes and relays under the hood were for. And suddenly I found that the purchase of a vehicle is a commitment to the system of regular (or irregular in my case) visits to a technician that hopefully understood it. My 96 Prism actually still works w/o dealer visits so it must be the exception. Even HD motorcycles now use step motors rather than throttle cables.

The people that are ready for EVs are probably people who are already accustomed to high technology and  its accompanying high cost of maintenance. A friend has a Porsche Boxster and oil change prices with parts and fluids can run somewhere between $127 and $541 depending on location. Plus anyone willing to pay upwards of $40K for a pickup is already groomed for high costs.

Actually an EV would work for me it's just the nagging thought that I would actually have to plan a trip that bothers me even though I haven't driven farther than 100 miles from home in several years. It's the same crazy thought that keeps me from purchasing a motorcycle that is limited to 70mph even though I never ride faster than that.


----------



## Spicoli43

My resistance is the price and the people that spout off fantasies. If the EV's of the future are $15,000 (Or whatever is a good price based on inflation and the economy) and they run on one or two batteries like we have now that cost $200 or less every 6 or so years, then fine. I would buy one for short little trips that I take now. 

The cost of a Tesla is insane, but I guess those people don't mind paying $17,000 now for a new battery pack. I don't know about any others, haven't researched them. 

The fantasies are what really keep me away though, with the ridiculous inaccurate statements that they are better for the environment when that's patently false JUST in concern with the massive batteries. Then there is the "Climate Change", the artist formerly known as "Global Warming" that is at it's cyclical peak and hasn't warmed a degree in the life of anybody currently living. 

Then there's the "Fossil Fuels are bad" part, exhibiting that those people never ever think. How can something that is a massive part of the Earth be bad for the Earth? That's like saying a Lake is bad for the Earth. 

EV's or not, the Earth is headed for an Ice Age, which isn't caused an Ice Decade, like it also isn't called a Warming Decade. It takes Thousands of years, and nobody alive will see it happen, no matter what they do.


----------



## Flyover

I suppose few people are immune from imbuing inanimate objects with magical political meaning and significance.

This can still be a rational choice if you are in a situation where you will directly feel the effects of this meaning and significance (e.g I've heard a few people complain that in Texas many drivers are rude to them because they don't drive trucks), but regardless, underneath we define our own identities in part by the objects we own and interact with.

As we observe, this too will drive EV adoption and non-adoption.


----------



## Flyover

About once every few years I spontaneously draw a cartoon. I drew this one back in 2016 and just happened across it today; it fits this thread:


----------



## Eddie_T

Sales must be up.
Rivian, Tesla & GM prep for predicted shortage of EV battery production materials


----------



## BuzzLOL

Eddie_T said:


> Sales must be up.
> Rivian, Tesla & GM prep for predicted shortage of EV battery production materials


GM announcing the electric 2023 Corvette... with probably electric speaker produced exhaust rumbling... 
And, of course, we know who is producing shortages of EVERYTHING !!! ( except BS... )


----------



## BuzzLOL

Flyover said:


> About once every few years I spontaneously draw a cartoon. I drew this one back in 2016 and just happened across it today; it fits this thread:


Not just a cartoon... seen actual photos all over of vehicles pulling generators on trailers... small generators to recharge batteries... or large generators to continuously power the tow vehicle... also trailers with engine driven superchargers connected to the engine of the vehicle doing the pulling...


----------



## BuzzLOL

Spicoli43 said:


> The fantasies are what really keep me away though, with the ridiculous inaccurate statements...


They're STILL pimping the psychotic fantasy that deadly shots that don't work on the current flus can eradicate future flus from the planet!


----------



## Spicoli43

BuzzLOL said:


> They're STILL pimping the psychotic fantasy that deadly shots that don't work on the current flus can eradicate future flus from the planet!



Yeah, big publicly traded companies that bought the maggots in the media and congress. Follow the money, that's all there is to it.


----------



## Eddie_T

Ammonia shows promise as a fuel. It wouldn't require replacement of all the ICE rolling stock.. Its proponents say it's too cheap to be seriously investigated $0.25 per liter.


----------



## Spicoli43

Here we go, in all my points against EV because of the cost, I didn't even think about the functionality or lack thereof of the charging stations.. It just keeps melting...









						California driving: Over a quarter of electric car-charging stations in Bay Area not working, study says
					

California is working to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions by "40% below 1990 levels by 2030," according to the California Air Resources Board.




					www.foxbusiness.com


----------



## bud16415

We took a little weekend vacation over to Ohio this last weekend to wine country and stayed two nights at a large hotel/lodge. My guess is there were maybe 200 or so parking spaces and we easily found a place to park at 4:00 when we checked in. I noticed in the front row close to the entrance were 6-8 handicapped spots and then 8-10 EV charging spots and then one space reserved for military veteran. There were 3-4 in the handicapped with hang tags none in the EVs and one in the vet spot. I thought of this thread and wondered why EVs get to park close as they are not handicapped even though there were none there. I then wondered what if everyone gets an EV will the hotel put in 200 or more charging spots or do you plug in and then in a few hours come out and move to a crummy place far away.



We went out for a late dinner and got back about 9:30 and the lot was full and all the EV spots were still empty all the handicapped were full and the one vet place was also taken. I got to thinking there has to be at least 30-50 vets staying in the hotel and I wondered why just one space. The next morning when we headed out to the wineries there was one EV plugged in and it looked like it was likely there all night. That day we came back and found a place and went for a late dinner again and came back being Saturday night and there was not a paved spot left in the lot and we drove past the EV spots I told her to park in the EV area and she said no the sign says EVs only and there was a pickup truck in one spot and it was charging or so it seemed as the cord ran to the truck I just assumed it was one of the new EV trucks. So we parked in the dirt area way in the back and walked past the EV truck that wasn’t an EV but the guy tossed the plug into the bed to make it look EV.



This all got me thinking first off how in a way this EV thing is or could become another social divide putting people into a different class. Then I got to thinking how could I make a fake EV socket and stick it over my gas cap and people would think I had a EV. I could keep it under my seat and stick it on when I want a good parking spot. Kind of like how the people talk their doctor into giving them a handicapped hang tag.

Just for the record I wont really do the above, but I see others doing it. How mad will people be with EVs when they drive up needing a charge and all the spots are taken by gassers? Do they tow people parked in an EV charging spot with a gas car?


----------



## BuzzLOL

Better yet, they should have gas parking spaces up close with free gasoline at the hose... charge it to The Massive Inflation Party... 

Do they charge for the electricity? EV spaces are prolly close so that wires are shorter/cheaper...


----------



## Eddie_T

American ingenuity @ work but not backward compatible to my 92 Prism. Just add one of these to your vehicle to enjoy prime parking ([email protected] Amazon);


----------



## bud16415

Eddie_T said:


> American ingenuity @ work but not backward compatible to my 92 Prism. Just add one of these to your vehicle to enjoy prime parking ([email protected] Amazon);


That’s just what I need. Buy a replacement gas cap and drill a hole thru both and bolt them together. The good part would be no one is going to siphon your gas because they will think it is an EV. I’m sure the exhaust pipe is a giveaway so I need to find a plug in hybrid sticker for the fender.

I have no idea how the hotel gets paid for the juice or if it is free. I should have snooped around more.


----------



## BuzzLOL

Just put some fake rivet heads in the 4 holes of that adapter and a strong magnet on the back to stick it to the car... 
Or open the hood, put the power cord in, and then close the hood... leave a reminder note on the seat to remove the cord before driving off...


----------



## bud16415

Our SAM’s Club has a row of charging stations and they are a “mile” from the store. That seems like the logical place to put them.


----------



## BuzzLOL

bud16415 said:


> Our SAM’s Club has a row of charging stations and they are a “mile” from the store. That seems like the logical place to put them.


How much do they charge?


----------



## bud16415

BuzzLOL said:


> How much do they charge?


I have no clue. I just see them sticking up with no cars around. Couple of small towns around here now have some down town. Again in the business district they might have 100 parking places and spent the money on two charging hookups. When and if it takes off I would think they would add a bunch more. Right now it is more of a feel good thing IMO.


----------



## BuzzLOL

Pulled a manual foot scooter out of the garbage pickup... thinking about converting it to electric... see a 24v electric motor with chain sprocket is $33... another $33 for two 12 volt batteries... have some small battery chargers around... also considering building a folding electric wheelchair scooter... in case I get where I can't walk much again...


----------



## Spicoli43

So, all that to avoid walking an extra 20 feet?


----------



## billshack

looks like this is more about the culture wars than cars. iF right then gas if left then eclectic.


----------



## Eddie_T

Dear Leader Biden’s Dark Summer: Electricity, Diesel, and Even His Beloved GREEN Energy Are Nearing Collapse


----------



## Snoonyb

In my tenure, there have been three, "if we don't do something, the world will come to an end", and the latest is, pick a number between now and 2050.

But yesterday, that was updated to 2026.

Meanwhile, OPEC is saying that there isn't sufficient investment to meet the world demand.

And John-f-n-kerry, flies around the globe, at our expense.

A CA & a CO co's are testing solid state batteries for EV's but not for cold weather, hmmmmmm.


----------



## bud16415

billshack said:


> looks like this is more about the culture wars than cars. iF right then gas if left then eclectic.


It is not at all about a culture war for me. I’m open to any and all innovations that make life better and work well. The process of doing any task has to follow some sort of systematic plan. You don’t install the plumbing and electrical in a home before you do the framing and it is the same for developing a transportation infrastructure. When cars first came into being roads were dirt because that’s what horses were used to walking on. There will have to be similar evolution to EV only a higher tech evolution. Trillions and trillions of dollars went into the infrastructure of fossil fuels getting us to where we are today. In most cases adaptation takes a long time but will slowly move in the direction of the better way of doing something. It is painless when the need is there the rest follows. I think many feel the need is being manufactured rather than being allowed to actually present itself. That’s what causes a culture war and the end result slows progress rather than advances it.


----------



## Sparky617

I'll strongly consider an electric when I'm ready to buy a car.  I can't see buying a new car just because gas is really expensive right now.  I just don't drive that much and our cars are relatively new and low mileage.  I'm not exactly a flaming liberal.  For 99% of my driving range anxiety isn't a problem.  I would probably only need to charge once every other week.  With super chargers you can get a car to 80% in 20 minutes and be good for a couple of hundred miles.  So even on a trip it wouldn't be a problem.  My wife can't go a couple of hundred miles without a bathroom break.  It would take a lot of gas to equal the monthly payment of a new car loan.  With interest rates going up, I'll earn gas money on the money in the bank it would take to buy the car for cash.   At this point I don't see us in the market for a new car for at least 3 years. 

EV Towing remains a big challenge.  But not a problem for me these days.  When I was a Scoutmaster I towed the Troop trailer most months for up to a couple of hundred miles depending on the outing.  Now if I tow, it is relatively short distances.


----------



## DesertRider

I’ve ask this a couple times on other sites, and never got an answer, maybe someone here knows... What voltage do these Charging Station deliver?   24V DC?... 48 V DC.... 110V AC?
You see these photos (Doctored?) of EV’s using a gasoline powered generator with an extension cord plugged into the car... is it really that simple?... NOT TRYING TO BE FUNNY,  I honestly would like to know...


----------



## Sparky617

The super chargers are 480V DC so they aren't limited by the inverter built into the car.  The onboard inverter is one of the biggest throttles in fast charging at home, well that and the voltage level.









						Tesla Supercharger - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



.


----------



## Snoonyb

At home charging is via 120V or 240V, AC with several adapters available.


----------



## Sparky617

Snoonyb said:


> At home charging is via 120V or 240V, AC with several adapters available.


All home chargers that I know of use the onboard inverter to convert the AC to DC.  With a 120VAC input charging takes quite awhile.  I put in a 240V 50A circuit as part of my basement project.  Friends that have EVs say they can top up in a few hours with that.  Super chargers bypass the onboard inverter and give the car straight DC current and can charge them to 80% in about 20 minutes.  Taking them from 80 - 100% slows considerably.  They really don't recommend going to 100% on a regular basis.


----------



## Snoonyb

I think that it will e at least another 5+ yers before this will all get settled out, just about the time when the batteries will need replacing.


----------



## Sparky617

Snoonyb said:


> I think that it will e at least another 5+ years before this will all get settled out, just about the time when the batteries will need replacing.


Hyundai is providing a 10 year warranty on their drive train including the battery pack on their Ioniq line of EVs.  The motor vehicle manufacturers are going whole hog on EVs because they know they don't have a choice.  The choice will only get better year over year on EVs.  The prices will become more in line with ICE vehicles as capacity builds.  Ford is discontinuing the Edge, my current car, and converting the only assembly plant that makes them for the global market to making EVs.  Possibly the new Fusion as an EV, but that's just speculation.  I do know from what I've read the 2023 model year will be the last for that model. 

Even Honda and Toyota who were betting on hydrogen power are coming around to EVs.   Hydrogen only makes sense if you can make it from H2O.  Which requires a lot of electricity, it would be a great by-product of nuke power, but the greenies don't want that.  Though it is IMHO the only carbon neutral baseload generation that can be built.  Try getting a new dam approved in the USA today.   I think hydrogen probably has a future in aviation fuel, maybe not in our lifetime though, as hydrocarbons will probably power airliners for the next 40 years.


----------



## billshack

bud16415 said:


> It is not at all about a culture war for me. I’m open to any and all innovations that make life better and work well. The process of doing any task has to follow some sort of systematic plan. You don’t install the plumbing and electrical in a home before you do the framing and it is the same for developing a transportation infrastructure. When cars first came into being roads were dirt because that’s what horses were used to walking on. There will have to be similar evolution to EV only a higher tech evolution. Trillions and trillions of dollars went into the infrastructure of fossil fuels getting us to where we are today. In most cases adaptation takes a long time but will slowly move in the direction of the better way of doing something. It is painless when the need is there the rest follows. I think many feel the need is being manufactured rather than being allowed to actually present itself. That’s what causes a culture war and the end result slows progress rather than advances it.


the reason i posted this culture war is that hundreds of people are now vandalising teslas  cars at will .


			https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tesla+cars+being+keyed+


----------



## Spicoli43

Sparky617 said:


> Hyundai is providing a 10 year warranty on their drive train including the battery pack on their Ioniq line of EVs.



Ok, how much are replacement batteries? Here's an example for a Tesla. It makes buying a used Tesla absolutely impossible because even if the 4 year old Tesla is covered for a battery for 4 years or 6 or whatever, the odds of needing to replace it after that are real high. 

Also for Tesla, if you let it discharge to dead or near dead, it voids the warranty... Texas anyone? When they were out of power for a week during that snowstorm a couple of years ago? Brand New Tesla for $68K worth nothing as far as a warranty.









						2012 Model S P85 Battery Replacement Receipt - sharing is caring
					

Hello everyone,   I noticed a few threads asking what you get for the $20,000-22,000 battery replacement when out of warranty. You can find that answer below as the battery was replaced in an out of warranty 2012 Model S (P85).   Enjoy!  (Yes, my car. No, not my money.)




					teslamotorsclub.com


----------



## Flyover

DesertRider said:


> I’ve ask this a couple times on other sites, and never got an answer, maybe someone here knows... What voltage do these Charging Station deliver?   24V DC?... 48 V DC.... 110V AC?
> You see these photos (Doctored?) of EV’s using a gasoline powered generator with an extension cord plugged into the car... is it really that simple?... NOT TRYING TO BE FUNNY,  I honestly would like to know...


I don't know, but this picture was doctored for sure: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





It's a cartoon I drew c.2015


----------



## ekrig

billshack said:


> looks like this is more about the culture wars than cars. iF right then gas if left then eclectic.


My comments have nothing to do with "culture". It is all about having the freedom to make my own informed decisions.

Preserving the environment is very important and personally I'm in favor of a reward&penalty framework that *incentivizes* a transition towards a better status quo. However, the so-called "culture war" is being waged against people that want to eliminate free will. This notion that they know what's right, what the "right decision" should be, and be dammed anyone who disagrees or even advocates for a more measured transition approach... (to account for the uncertainty and incomplete understanding of the impact of these choices and the almost certainty that mistakes and corrections will be necessary.)

Thinking about this about as left vs right issue is overly simplistic, as is the idea that we know what the way forward should be. Extreme politics **on either side** are almost always bad. In fact, those people seem to have the exact same attitude, differing only in the "friends" that they need to benefit while having the tax payer foot the bill.

Apologies for the rant...

Back on topic, at the right price I think that EVs make perfect sense in many cases. I also think that many of the concerns people are voicing here make perfect sense. The point is that there isn't a one size fits all. For a house with only one car that needs to cover all basis, an hybrid might be the right choice. One option that is hardly ever discussed is natural gas (NG). It can be a drop-in conversion in current gas-powered vehicles and it has lower emissions. Plus, for converted cars, it has the ability to switch between NG and regular gas. I know that it is quite common in some other countries, and since US has so much of its own NG, it seems a good transition. Perhaps the leaks are a bit problem which, considering that NG is much worse than CO2 as a GHG, eliminate the gains, but I've be curious to known where that stands. Or maybe there isn't as much money to be made compared to asking people to buy new cars. If the latter case, then are we doing this for the money or to help the environment. How much of this is about "forcing" people to spend money that helps the politicians buddy's vs helping the environment?


----------



## Eddie_T

I read some accounts of travelling by Tesla finding that it took a lot of planning. Even with the supercharging stations they had to be available and coordinated with meals. Fifteen minutes doesn't sound like much until you are forced to wait 15 minutes. I wondered what the traveller might have done if he had to wait on others before even starting his 15 minutes. His conclusion was that the best situation for the battery might be more frequent stops and 10 minute charges.

I think the Tesla 2 is at least initially being built and tested in China. To conserve weight the battery forms part of the car's structure. IIRC the predicted range is 275 miles. Cost will be around $25K, not a problem for those used to keeping up with the Joneses but for a zero debt person like me it's still too steep. But it will impact taxes and deficit/debt as the government is expected to to pick up $7K of the price with a bit of its magic (and sleight of hand, similar to my free LED bulbs from the utility).


----------



## billshack

apparently when you get in a tesla and are driving to lets say Florida for example. it calculates your route and where to recharge all on the gps.   It knows how far you can go and where all the charging stations are,


----------



## Sparky617

Real world example of taking a non-Tesla car on a long road trip.


----------



## 68bucks

I'm in Canada this week and there are a lot more charging stations around here. At one large shopping center there was a row of about 15 stations way at the back of the lot. Passed a couple rest area type places that had a whole bunch of them. Much more previlent up here.


----------



## Sparky617

68bucks said:


> I'm in Canada this week and there are a lot more charging stations around here. At one large shopping center there was a row of about 15 stations way at the back of the lot. Passed a couple rest area type places that had a whole bunch of them. Much more previlent up here.



Per Google there are over 43,000 public charging stations in the USA and over 5000 in Canada.  The USA and Canada have a similar landmass but the USA has 10x the population of Canada.   We don't have quite 10x the public chargers as Canada but you're less likely to wind up in an area with none in the USA than in Canada just given the similar landmasses.  Canada's population tends to cluster within 50 miles of the US border and around their major cities.  For comparison there are about 145,000 gas stations in the USA and many of them are adding EV charging.  The Sheetz stations near me all have EV chargers.  For places like Sheetz and Wawa with restaurants attached it makes a lot of sense to install EV chargers since it can drive sales in the convenience store/restaurant while people wait the 20 minutes to charge their cars.  I'm seeing chargers at McDonalds, Chic Fil A, shopping centers, grocery stores, and offices.  

If you're doing a road trip in the USA and likely in Canada there are charging points along the interstate system to get you where you're going.  I suspect if you go far off the beaten path in either country you're going to want to make sure you have a full charge to get you in and out of the rural area.   Worse comes to worse you can charge at 120v outlet, it will just take forever. The charging network is growing rapidly.  Tesla is opening their 1200+ charging network to other EVs. The charging network is constantly growing and right now EVs make up a small but growing percentage of the fleet in both countries.  When doing road trips the navigation systems in EVs will map your trip out with charge points along the way and tell you when you should stop and for how long.  They typically only charge up to about 80% of capacity because going from 20% to 80% can take about 20 minutes, going the next 20% takes longer and is tougher on the battery life.

To me the biggest problem with EVs is mining the rare earth metals and lithium (which is pretty abundant) isn't exactly green.  We don't have the capacity to switch to EVs overnight.  ICE cars will be around for the rest of my lifetime and likely my 20 something kids lives.  But I suspect ICE vehicles will not be the majority of vehicles on the road in my lifetime.


----------



## bud16415




----------



## Eddie_T

Excellent presentation. I don't buy into the unproven theory that CO₂ is our enemy however when considering other pollution and waste issues the video destroys the idea that an electric vehicle is ideal for the short trip commuter who doesn't rack up  lot of miles per year. Yet that's what it's being promoted for since long distance travelling involves scheduled delays.


----------



## Snoonyb

Early, in the presentation is depicted a, cycle, of a horse, emitting CO2, which is then absorbed by plants, which are consumed, again, by the horse, and thus the cycle.

And, as a follow up, a vehicle, emitting CO2, which is not being absorbed by plants.

So, what component differences exist, in the emitted CO2, which prevents the vehicle emitted CO2, from being absorbed?


----------



## Sparky617

Snoonyb said:


> Early, in the presentation is depicted a, cycle, of a horse, emitting CO2, which is then absorbed by plants, which are consumed, again, by the horse, and thus the cycle.
> 
> And, as a follow up, a vehicle, emitting CO2, which is not being absorbed by plants.
> 
> So, what component differences exist, in the emitted CO2, which prevents the vehicle emitted CO2, from being absorbed?


The theory is we're releasing CO2 that has been locked up in fossil fuels for millions of years.  Whereas the horse is eating grass and other plant products that have locked up CO2 and created O2 through photosynthesis.  The Europeans use the same logic in saying the burning wood to create electricity is "green" versus burning coal.  Thing is it takes decades to create a tree that is gone in a few seconds in a wood powered electrical plant.  We're dumping more CO2 into the air than the natural cycle can absorb.    We're also clear cutting the rain forests in the Amazon River Basin and releasing all the stored CO2 there.

If we're serious about reducing green house gas emissions and don't include nuke power you're delusional. Wind and solar can't replace the other sources of electricity without a huge increase in storage that would dwarf the batteries used in personal transportation.


----------



## Flyover

@Sparky617 All of that might be true (and would help explain why despite cars and horses releasing the same CO2, there is more CO2 in the atmosphere now that we primarily drive cars than back when non-pedestrian land transportation was mainly horse-powered), but I think @Snoonyb was referring to a specific part of the video presentation which addressed none of what you said. The presenter used a diagram exactly as Snoonyb described. To be accurate according to what you said, that diagram should have been greatly expanded. It was a good catch, Snoonyb.

I'll note, the video also talks about replacing fossil fuel power plants with solar and wind, but the components for solar and wind plants also have to be manufactured and assembled, and this process has its own carbon footprint.

There is no beating the laws of thermodynamics.


----------



## bud16415

People and scientist with lean to climate change being a problem tend to site the raise in CO2 as a bad thing. It is going up and the other camp points to data saying CO2 at today’s level is in the scope of the earth at a low point and could use a bump. We as man try and understand things as remaining stable or what we have known about over at most 100 years. The stuff like rising water levels is a big problem only because we invested 100 years putting stuff where there might be water in another 100-500 years. Same with a few degrees of temp increase or decrease. IMO the world is an adaptive planet and not meant to not change. Today I’m out staining my deck on a beautiful sunny warm day in shorts and a tee shirt. At one time in history this same location was under 2 miles of ice.



The idea of comparing a horse is ok but I don’t know if he factored in the horse keeps making CO2 when he is in the barn resting. I know a lot of people other than the Amish that have horses and they serve no purpose other than being a pet that maybe gets rode around in circles in a ring just because it needs exercise and gives the owner pleasure doing it. We could pass a law making horses illegal as they make CO2 and provide no output. After all Ca has a law you can’t have a gas powered lawnmower or chainsaw and they have a function that offsets the CO2. How many horses are in Ca?



He listed an offset to his graph showing the CO2 used to make the battery but compared it to an ICE that went twice the miles the battery life would likely be. He should have IMO doubled the offset as a second battery will be needed. He didn’t also factor in the CO2 used to make the rest of the car. If you assume these super high gas prices are being manufactured to push EVs as I do then EVs will make the car it replaces a cash for clunkers without the cash. If the country or world only needs so many cars and people are buying EV because of fuel cost you have to assume some of the ICE cars are going away before their time and all that CO2 it took to make them is being wasted as they haven’t finished their lifecycle, and new CO2 is being released on these EVs. Melting down good energy efficient cars to make EVs is actually the goal I think.



I totally agree with him hybrid step being skipped is a big mistake.

It only takes about 10 years to build a nuclear plant and about $10,000,000,000. I would think the government would be planning at least a 100 of them to start lickity split. Along with coming up with the fuel for them.     

I wish I had a little less CO2 here because I'm having a tough time keeping up with the weeds in the garden. On the other hand the veggies are really growing fast.


----------



## Eddie_T

I confess that I feel an air of superiority when I see an EV (or even a big shiny $50K ICE pickup) because I am debt free and drive a 96 Prism. The longer I can keep it out of the crusher the better my (imaginary impact) carbon footprint.


----------



## Flyover

Eddie_T said:


> I confess that I feel an air of superiority when I see an EV (or even a big shiny $50K ICE pickup) because I am debt free and drive a 96 Prism. The longer I can keep it out of the crusher the better my (imaginary impact) carbon footprint.


And $50K is usually the base trim after haggling and discounts! 

I find myself thinking their car payment must be more than the rent I paid at most of the apartments I lived in.

Well, maybe the people who work for the car companies do a lot of composting and gardening and other "green" activities, so by paying their salaries the people buying new cars really are making a difference.


----------



## bud16415

We know a couple that have on order a Ford EV 2500 extended cab full bed pickup. They are not what I would call wealthy but they want a big truck and feel they want to be Green. They didn’t like the mileage of the standard battery so they ordered the larger battery. They are going to have their home service enlarged and are going for some kind of fast charging system. They are getting a large subsidy from Uncle Sam and the end cost to them for the truck is $87k with what they are putting into the house so they can charge it and also use the truck to power the house for up to 3 days they will be pushing 100G is my guess.

As an old timer once told me “If you want all that economy you have to pay for it.”


----------



## Sparky617

Our cars are paid for with plenty of life left in them.  I'm not signing up for a new car ICE or EV any time soon.  If I financed it even with a 50% down payment, my current gas usage costs would still be far below the monthly payment on a new car or truck.


----------



## Eddie_T

Something that I don't understand is the people that purchase an oversized PU to tow a camping trailer just to go to a campground and park in an expensive slot just to visit with others of the same mindset.


----------



## bud16415

Eddie_T said:


> Something that I don't understand is the people that purchase an oversized PU to tow a camping trailer just to go to a campground and park in an expensive slot just to visit with others of the same mindset.


A lot of the people that do that here are farm people that live miles from their neighbors and camping becomes a social thing. Folks that live in the city often go for rural camping where they go to get away from people.


----------



## Snoonyb

Poetic justice: "I wish I had a little less CO2 here because I'm having a tough time keeping up with the weeds in the garden. On the other hand the veggies are really growing fast."


----------



## Eddie_T

Wall Street Journal reporter Rachel Wolfe recently ventured from New Orleans, Louisiana to Chicago, Illinois in a brand-new Kia EV6 to test America's current electric vehicle capabilities and public-charging infrastructure. By the end of her exhausting trip, she said the fumes of gasoline — though particularly expensive at the moment — "never smelled so sweet." She reportedly said she spent more time charging than she did sleeping.


----------



## bud16415




----------



## Spicoli43

Great video. Unfortunately, politicians on both sides never listen to common sense, they listen to who has the biggest briefcase filled with cash.


----------



## Snoonyb

Is everybody aware, that surfing was invented, to discourage the truly intellectuals, from taking over the world?


----------



## Flyover

We Bet F-150 Lightning's Range Is under 100 Miles when Towing at the Max
					

Ford promises EPA ratings of 230 and 300 miles, but towing and hauling near the claimed 10,000-pound maximum is going to seriously cut into those figures.




					www.caranddriver.com
				












						Ford F-150 Lightning Owner Opens Up About Towing And Range Reduction
					

Just like gas trucks, electric trucks are less efficient while towing. However, the Lightning's strong torque makes it seem as though there's no heavy load.




					insideevs.com
				




The second link is anecdotal but seems to back up the prediction made in the first link. Ford F-150 Lightning range dramatically decreases when towing even just a 3-ton camper.


----------



## bud16415

Flyover said:


> We Bet F-150 Lightning's Range Is under 100 Miles when Towing at the Max
> 
> 
> Ford promises EPA ratings of 230 and 300 miles, but towing and hauling near the claimed 10,000-pound maximum is going to seriously cut into those figures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.caranddriver.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ford F-150 Lightning Owner Opens Up About Towing And Range Reduction
> 
> 
> Just like gas trucks, electric trucks are less efficient while towing. However, the Lightning's strong torque makes it seem as though there's no heavy load.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> insideevs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second link is anecdotal but seems to back up the prediction made in the first link. Ford F-150 Lightning range dramatically decreases when towing even just a 3-ton camper.


No matter the power supply (Work = Force x Distance). Some things just don't change. 
When marketing step in they like to paint a rose colored picture. Going up hill, into the wind, or pulling a camper is going to require more energy.


----------



## Flyover

Sorry, I phrased it sloppily. I believe Ford acknowledged there'd be less range while towing (I'll just call this "RWT"), but the actual RWT turned out to be an alarming 50% lower than Ford's RWT estimate. (In that one anecdote.)


----------



## bud16415

Flyover said:


> Sorry, I phrased it sloppily. I believe Ford acknowledged there'd be less range while towing (I'll just call this "RWT"), but the actual RWT turned out to be an alarming 50% lower than Ford's RWT estimate. (In that one anecdote.)


I understand that is also a brand new truck with everything properly lubed and tires inflated to likely the max on a level test track with a brand new fully charged battery. My GMC 2500 full size pick m up I just sold had 300,000 miles on and plowed snow for 20 winters up here on the Great Lakes. It got all the proper service intervals and only required minor repairs to the 350CI drive train. It was not the truck I bought at the end of my time with it, but the guy that bought it seemed pretty happy to get it. I wonder now at $5.05 per gallon if he is still happy.

I have no plans to ever getting another pick up truck even though I would love to have one. I kind of wonder if an EV could plow snow and make 300k miles and still have a resale value 20 years from now. I know when plowing the gas gage really went down fast. If you ever notice most guys plowing have one or both windows down. Running the heater helps cool the engine and the truck puts out so much heat you need the windows down.


----------



## Eddie_T

Anecdotal vs double blind study?

I suspect that like with meds my own (N of 1) experience trumps what someone else tells me w/regard to miles-per-whatever.


----------



## Snoonyb

Another advancement, however, a bit pricey;









						This Sleek New Solar-Powered EV Sedan Can Go Months Without Charging
					

In addition to a 388-mile electric range, the sedan's solar panels can add up to 44 miles per day.




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## bud16415

Cleaned up the thread now lets keep it civil and talk about EVs. 

If that is impossible then we will think of something else.


----------



## Eddie_T

I don't want that thing on the side of my house plus is it theft proof?


----------



## BvilleBound

*You can place the EV charging port wherever it is convenient and suitable to match your preferences.  *Plus the port can be enclosed in a box to match the design of your home, or inset into the wall with a cover, plus many different models are available.  See one example below.

As for 'theft protection', an EV charging port (a) is connected to 220v lines, which will probably 'surprise' a foolish burgler, (b) can be protected by a locked box or locked cover if this is a concern in your neighborhood, and (c) there isn't a big market for used and stolen residential EV chargers - and no theft problem has been reported.  Someone trying to charge their car on your account is much more likely, e.g. if you are on vacation, but again -- you can protect access to the port as noted above, if this is a concern.

In short, this is not a reason to avoid an EV - with all of the cost reductions, performance and benefits that an EV delivers.


----------



## BvilleBound

*Here is a link to the non-partisan Consumer Reports study of EV costs:*

https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/evs-offer-big-savings-over-traditional-gas-powered-cars/

I hope this is helpful.


----------



## Eddie_T

So the ugly box has to go somewhere and a smart thief could take it.

I  read one report where a researcher simulated "a residential distribution transformer connected to six households" with 11 vehicles total. The transformer could handle up to six electric cars charging with Level 1 charging, but the simulated transformer saw demand in excess of its nominal capacity as soon as one EV with Level 2 charging was added to the neighborhood.

Most people that are considering one are also considering the level 2 charger. Currently my utility would like me to let them enable my water heater at night.


----------



## BvilleBound

A 'smart' thief would avoid a low-cost, low demand, hard to fence residential charging port -- in favor of the nice rims and tires on your car (or the entire car), easy to sell jewelry and electronic stuff inside your home.  Plus, are there any reports of problems with residential EV port thefts?  Of course not.

As for the ability of our grid to handle EVs, here is a good review by Forbes.  Can you provide a link to the "report" you mentioned?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/11/13/electricity-grids-can-handle-electric-vehicles-easily--they-just-need-proper-management/


----------



## Eddie_T

I've read some horror stories of people trying to find active publically available chargers while on an impromptu trip. Often plans had to be altered. That will improve as EVs become more popular but problems will occur and even with a 'N of 1' if I happened to be that one it could ruin a trip.

Modulated chargers in a neighborhood could solve the transformer overload problem. But I have been unwilling to surrender control of my water heater or heat pump so far.

As for thefts thieves will sell copper. There's always a market for copper and 240V is only 120V to ground (no problem with rubber soles on asphalt or concrete). Who knows what they will steal until they do.


----------



## ekrig

BvilleBound said:


> As for the ability of our grid to handle EVs, here is a good review by Forbes.  Can you provide a link to the "report" you mentioned?
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/11/13/electricity-grids-can-handle-electric-vehicles-easily--they-just-need-proper-management/



Thanks for the interesting read. There are a number of aspects that the author's perspective fails to consider however.

First of all, it talks about overall electric generation capacity. Yet, when I talk about grid issues the main thing on my mind is actually the transmission and distribution lines, transformers connecting to the house, etc. The current analog to the situation of a large number of people arriving home from work and plugging in their EVs, is when most people turn on their AC in the late afternoon when they get home. During the hot summer months this causes all sorts of problems. So, if our grid, in terms of generation capacity, distribution or otherwise, struggles with the current situation, how much headroom is their to add a significant number of EVs?

I anticipate that someone is going to say that "we need to invest in the grid". The question is who is going to do that, and what is the economic incentive to do so? That's a whole in and of itself. For the sake of brevity, lets just say that people are saying that it is cheaper or something are thinking short-term. The problem there being that in the short-term the life-cycle emissions of EVs are actually quite bad.

The second main problem with the article is that it talks about correct management of the supply. That cannot be achieved with renewables, except perhaps hydro (which have their own set of environmental issues). What is the alternative? Most likely natural gas power plants but, if they are only going to be online for a few hours a day, the economics are terrible. So, if we need them, someone is going to have to pay premium.

I must admit that when I read "need proper management" in the title, I was expecting that it was going to advocate for having a system which could be controlled by the grid to phase the charging of different people's car such as to balance the peak load, also as @Eddie_T was mentioned. I read something to that end in a technical Electrical Engineering journal. Putting the whole issue of "relinquish the control over allocation of one's house power" aside for a moment, this would require nearly everyone to install whole new electric panels and connections to support such aspects. That's _at a bare minimum_ a $5k endeavor; quite a significant chunk of money to "force" everyone to pay.


----------



## Eddie_T

And predictions for the summer of '22 are grim;
Vast Swath of US at Risk of Summer Blackouts, Regulator Warns


----------



## BvilleBound

Eddie_T said:


> I've read some horror stories of people trying to find active publically available chargers while on an impromptu trip. Often plans had to be altered. That will improve as EVs become more popular but problems will occur and even with a 'N of 1' if I happened to be that one it could ruin a trip.
> 
> Modulated chargers in a neighborhood could solve the transformer overload problem. But I have been unwilling to surrender control of my water heater or heat pump so far.
> 
> As for thefts thieves will sell copper. There's always a market for copper and 240V is only 120V to ground (no problem with rubber soles on asphalt or concrete). Who knows what they will steal until they do.





ekrig said:


> Thanks for the interesting read. There are a number of aspects that the author's perspective fails to consider however.
> 
> First of all, it talks about overall electric generation capacity. Yet, when I talk about grid issues the main thing on my mind is actually the transmission and distribution lines, transformers connecting to the house, etc. The current analog to the situation of a large number of people arriving home from work and plugging in their EVs, is when most people turn on their AC in the late afternoon when they get home. During the hot summer months this causes all sorts of problems. So, if our grid, in terms of generation capacity, distribution or otherwise, struggles with the current situation, how much headroom is their to add a significant number of EVs?
> 
> I anticipate that someone is going to say that "we need to invest in the grid". The question is who is going to do that, and what is the economic incentive to do so? That's a whole in and of itself. For the sake of brevity, lets just say that people are saying that it is cheaper or something are thinking short-term. The problem there being that in the short-term the life-cycle emissions of EVs are actually quite bad.
> 
> The second main problem with the article is that it talks about correct management of the supply. That cannot be achieved with renewables, except perhaps hydro (which have their own set of environmental issues). What is the alternative? Most likely natural gas power plants but, if they are only going to be online for a few hours a day, the economics are terrible. So, if we need them, someone is going to have to pay premium.
> 
> I must admit that when I read "need proper management" in the title, I was expecting that it was going to advocate for having a system which could be controlled by the grid to phase the charging of different people's car such as to balance the peak load, also as @Eddie_T was mentioned. I read something to that end in a technical Electrical Engineering journal. Putting the whole issue of "relinquish the control over allocation of one's house power" aside for a moment, this would require nearly everyone to install whole new electric panels and connections to support such aspects. That's _at a bare minimum_ a $5k endeavor; quite a significant chunk of money to "force" everyone to pay.



First, thank you for your detailed and reasoned reply.   A few thoughts:

*Do you have any evidence of residential distribution issues,* due to more EV's, heat pumps, etc.?  If so, please provide the evidence.


*Renewable energy is variable. * Solar is obviously periodical.  Wind obviously fluctuates.  The output from fossil fuel and nuclear plants also vary for maintenance, refueling and unexpected downtime, like the 'Big Freeze' in Texas.  So all sources need backup.  'Peaker' natural gas plants are common, but with the recent jump in prices they are not economical.  Have you read about new grid-level battery storage solutions?  

See:  
*How the massive ‘flow battery’ coming to an Army facility in Colorado will work*
Fort Carson is getting a 10-megawatt-hour redox flow battery system, which includes large tanks of liquid electrolytes.
Read in Popular Science: How the massive ‘flow battery’ coming to an Army facility in Colorado will work — Popular Science


www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-8082841/Elon-Musks-Tesla-battery-farm-saved-South-Australia-116-MILLION.html


www.popularmechanics.com/science/a31350880/elon-musk-battery-farm/


*Plus did you consider how much renewable energy is contributing to the total mix *for large states in the USA, e.g. Texas, and other nations?  Here is the energy mix for Texas -- clearly not a 'liberal' stronghold:





*Lifecycle emissions: * You raised a lot of issues, without any evidence.  Here are answers to the 'lifecycle emissions' question:  

www.ucsusa.org/resources/cleaner-cars-cradle-grave


Effects of battery manufacturing on electric vehicle life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions - International Council on Clean Transportation


www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change


----------



## BvilleBound

Eddie_T said:


> And predictions for the summer of '22 are grim;
> Vast Swath of US at Risk of Summer Blackouts, Regulator Warns



*What is the cause of these potential blackouts? * #1:  Record heat waves due to Global Warming.  #2: Record high prices for fossil fuels.  #3:  Wildfires in the American West, due to years of extreme drought caused by Global Warming -- which result in downed powerlines:


----------



## Eddie_T

EVs may present a way to make a buck. One person shared that a private citizen that had posted on PlugShare let him charge for 5.5 hrs. He didn't say what he did while it charged. Somewhere else they watched a movie on a  laptop while they got a 4 hour charge. Maybe not for me as my house is not in town and I wouldn't want the presence of strangers for 4 or 5 hours.


----------



## ekrig

BvilleBound said:


> First, thank you for your detailed and reasoned reply.   A few thoughts:
> 
> *Do you have any evidence of residential distribution issues,* due to more EV's, heat pumps, etc.?  If so, please provide the evidence.
> 
> 
> *Renewable energy is variable. * Solar is obviously periodical. Wind obviously fluctuates. The output from fossil fuel and nuclear plants also vary for maintenance, refueling and unexpected downtime, like the 'Big Freeze' in Texas. So all sources need backup. 'Peaker' natural gas plants are common, but with the recent jump in prices they are not economical. Have you read about new grid-level battery storage solutions?
> 
> See:
> *How the massive ‘flow battery’ coming to an Army facility in Colorado will work*
> Fort Carson is getting a 10-megawatt-hour redox flow battery system, which includes large tanks of liquid electrolytes.
> Read in Popular Science: How the massive ‘flow battery’ coming to an Army facility in Colorado will work — Popular Science
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-8082841/Elon-Musks-Tesla-battery-farm-saved-South-Australia-116-MILLION.html
> 
> 
> www.popularmechanics.com/science/a31350880/elon-musk-battery-farm/
> 
> *Plus did you consider how much renewable energy is contributing to the total mix *for large states in the USA, e.g. Texas, and other nations?  Here is the energy mix for Texas -- clearly not a 'liberal' stronghold:
> 
> View attachment 28055
> 
> 
> 
> *Lifecycle emissions: * You raised a lot of issues, without any evidence.  Here are answers to the 'lifecycle emissions' question:
> www.ucsusa.org/resources/cleaner-cars-cradle-grave
> 
> 
> Effects of battery manufacturing on electric vehicle life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions - International Council on Clean Transportation
> 
> 
> www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change



I think that you are missing my point about the forest and thinking about the trees.

"Do you have any evidence of residential distribution issues [...]": My point is not specifically about EVs but about the general state of our grid. For example, in your other message you mention the blackouts. If our grid struggles with these events which happen on a recurring basis, why wouldn't those problems be potential exacerbated by adding the load of charging EVs. In fact, if you read the technical journals (e.g., IEEE Transactions on Power Systems - IEEE Power and Energy Society, Electric Power Systems Research - Journal - Elsevier), there is much discussion on potential ways around this (like the phased time to charge the car I mentioned earlier) but it is going to be anything but simple.


"grid-level battery storage solutions": Flow batteries are very promising indeed but, again, they are not economical at scale. Scaling them up in an economical (all the while taking into consideration environmental risks, etc.) was the whole reason why previous employer had a whole bunch of people working on them. Of course, for the army, the price premium is worth it because the real reason they are buying it is insurance against potential events take the grid down.


"life-cycle emissions": The references that you included actually support my point about "short-" vs. "long-term". The emissions from building an EV are higher than an ICE car and therefore they need to be driven for a substantial number of miles before the break even point in terms of life-cycle emissions. Even if one is charging the car entirely from solar panels on one's roof, the break even point is like 50k miles. But lets be honest, if the car is charging from one own's solar panels then the car must be at home in the middle of the day, in which case probably not many miles are being driven. Otherwise, the car is being used to commute, in which case the first point above is crucial. Note that I don't have references at hand but I didn't get this from the internet either; I was fortunate to be able to watch many presentations from professor and scientists that research on these topics (i.e., the ones publishing articles on technical journals).
Ultimately, as I believe I have mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, I think that the evolution of the energy systems is most likely inevitable. Seeking ways to generate energy that are cleaner and have lower environmental impact is very important. Heck, I even said that I would consider EVs and would install solar panels if I had any significant facet of my roof facing South. The point is keep coming back to is the lack of a systematic long-term perspective that acknowledges the technical challenges of many of these things and keeps it a free, open market for innovation. That would get us a better and much, much cheaper solution. What we see today is many people enabling politicians gambling, or "returning favors" to their donors, with our tax money. Mind you,this happens on both sides, just with a different flavor and intensity.


----------



## Eddie_T

A goodly portion of the grid is old equipment. Transformers that cannot be pushed to 50% peak overload conditions as often w/o increasing failure rate. My underground high voltage feed cable had to be replaced this season due to three failures in a couple of years. My yard transformer was replaced several years ago because it blew. I may be in better shape than most as I am the only house served by the transformer. I know it had at least one more set of secondary lugs so I am assuming it to be a two-house transformer.


----------



## BuzzLOL

ekrig said:


> The question is who is going to do that, and what is the economic incentive to do so?


We already know that. Same as the incentive to pay $$Billions to the shots makers for deadly nonworking fake 'vaccine' shots: Bribes to politicians... of a party we're not allowed to mention...


----------



## 68bucks

You must mean all the tax payer money spent on operation warp speed? I agree we know who will pay to upgrade the grid. If it's easy to do and capitalize on then some company will step right in. If it's hard and expensive with unclear means to profit then the public will foot the bill. Sort of the way it always goes.


----------



## Spicoli43

BvilleBound said:


> *What is the cause of these potential blackouts? * #1:  Record heat waves due to Global Warming.  #2: Record high prices for fossil fuels.  #3:  Wildfires in the American West, due to years of extreme drought caused by Global Warming -- which result in downed powerlines:
> 
> View attachment 28056



There's no such thing as "Record heat waves due to Global Warming"... The Ice age ended about 12,500 years ago, and it was probably the temps we see today 10,000 years ago. 

Wildfires in the West are caused by several factors, but it's no warmer in Phoenix now than it was in the 50's. It's always been hotter there. As far as California, the Liberals running that state for eons couldn't figure out how to manage their forests if their lives depended on it. That, and they build their houses close enough that somebody can reach out the window and knock on their neighbor's house. When a fire starts, the entire town is gone like we have seen... Nothing to do with "Global Warming"

When you see 8 foot piles of branches and brush and dead timber in forests like I did as a Firefighter, that is called Fuel. In CA, OR and WA, they don't take care of the forests or they don't have the cash to do so. The entire two terms of Obama had no relief for fires. Trump's 2017 or 2018 budget gave the USFS, DNR, and State agencies the cash to take care of the forests and do controlled back burns. The result was much less in the way of big fires and extreme smoke. 

There's fires every year, but in MT, we get smoke from CA, OR, WA, UT, NV, ID, WY, and Canada. It's easy to tell when the agencies have been taking care of the forests and when they haven't. During the Obama "Can't fight the Spotted Owl" years, the entire summer was smoky. For 2 months straight in 2016, I couldn't see the Mountains from my windows.


----------



## BuzzLOL

Spicoli43 said:


> There's no such thing as "Record heat waves due to Global Warming"... The Ice age ended about 12,500 years ago, and it was probably the temps we see today 10,000 years ago.


The earth has been slowly warming for past 12,500 years... the warming was started by all those cars 12,500 years ago... some foolish people think the warming is natural...


----------



## BuzzLOL

68bucks said:


> You must mean all the tax payer money spent on operation warp speed?


Once we realized the deadly fake 'vaccine' shots don't work, we were scammed, we should have stopped paying for more... and asked for our money back... and stopped firing people for refusing them... put the mandators in prison...


----------



## Spicoli43

BuzzLOL said:


> The earth has been slowly warming for past 12,500 years... the warming was started by all those cars 12,500 years ago... some foolish people think the warming is natural...



Yes, and Cow Flatulence and Camel Flatulence.


----------



## Snoonyb

The question I have, for those who are proponents of electrification is:

Were the administration, in their "big green" push, decided to immediately mandate, that only power sourced from wind and solar would be authorized to continue to operate.

Would there be street lights?
Would property taxes still be demanded?
Would there be public transportation?
Would health care be available, and where?
What would the size of the batter-pack need to be, for city services to continue uninterrupted, and for how long?

The Kaiser Hospital In Irvine CA, power management building is about the size of a R-1 residential house, and can, ostensibly, operate the facility, uninterrupted, for 48 too 72 hrs.

Global warming, or climate change, you bet, It's called weather, learn to live with it, It'll broaden your "horizontal" perspective.


----------



## Spicoli43

Big Surprise!!! Even the current President knows "Global Warming" is a scam. 









						Hypocrite: Obama Installs Massive Propane Tanks at Swanky Mansion While Pushing Green Policies
					






					townhall.com


----------



## Flyover

Sorry for the quick derail, I just have one off-topic question.

Spicoli, you keep calling Obama the current president. I think you are implying Biden is a puppet figure and Obama is really the one pulling the strings. Is that right?

I'm asking because I've never seen anyone else saying that but if it's a thing people are saying, it seems in line with other narratives I've seen that cast Biden in the role of a harmless old grandad figure, which I sense is what Biden wants everyone to think about him.


----------



## BuzzLOL

Flyover said:


> Spicoli, you keep calling Obama the current president. I think you are implying Biden is a puppet figure and Obama is really the one pulling the strings. Is that right? I'm asking because I've never seen anyone else saying that but if it's a thing people are saying, it seems in line with other narratives I've seen that cast Biden in the role of a harmless old grandad figure, which I sense is what Biden wants everyone to think about him.


Where you been? Three fourths of the country refers to Hitlerite Jokementia Bribery as Obummer's 3rd Term. And he's hardly "harmless" as he has ordered millions of people fired if they refuse the deadly nonworking fake 'vaccine' jab! And allowed Putin into Ukraine and 20,000 people killed... etc...


----------



## 68bucks

Snoonyb said:


> The question I have, for those who are proponents of electrification is:
> 
> Were the administration, in their "big green" push, decided to immediately mandate, that only power sourced from wind and solar would be authorized to continue to operate.
> 
> Would there be street lights?
> Would property taxes still be demanded?
> Would there be public transportation?
> Would health care be available, and where?
> What would the size of the batter-pack need to be, for city services to continue uninterrupted, and for how long?
> 
> The Kaiser Hospital In Irvine CA, power management building is about the size of a R-1 residential house, and can, ostensibly, operate the facility, uninterrupted, for 48 too 72 hrs.
> 
> Global warming, or climate change, you bet, It's called weather, learn to live with it, It'll broaden your "horizontal" perspective.


I don't know that Im a "proponent" of electrification but I do think that's where we're headed eventually. Of course the answer to your questions is yes we would have all those things you mentioned and then some. Batteries would be small and super efficient etc. but of course that's not the case today just like your "what if" is not the case so it's sort of a moot point imo. The change will be gradual with each administration pushing the system one way or another. The big time greenies will tell you one thing while the fossil fuel crowd will tell you the opposite. The facts and truth will be in between somewhere, as usual. Oil will get more and more expensive as the easily extracted supply continues to deminish. At some point it will be too valuable to just burn up in a car. 

So the whole climate change deal is a harder nut to crack. I'm not an expert on climate so I don't have the credentials to really state facts. I don't consider browsing the web reading articles from my favorite sources as giving me credibility or even facts. I did a bunch of research and wrote a 20 page paper on it about 25 years ago disputing the notion of man-made climate change. These days I'm less sure of that position. I just know if we get it wrong I could be setting my grandkids and some day great grandkids up for a potential miserable existence. Or I can make some generally modest changes in lifestyle and habits and possibly help prevent that. Or I can just throw up my arms and say it's all fake and screw you I got mine you figure it out, won't be my problem, I'll be dead. Sort of like we're doing with the national debt.


----------



## Spicoli43

Yeah, I'll go with Buzz's description. I don't know where anybody has reached in and pulled out "harmless old granddad"... I don't think it's the showering with his Daughter thing or sniffing everybody else's kids for starters... Here's a short clip, though..


----------



## BuzzLOL

Spicoli43 said:


> Here's a short clip, though..


In psychology that's called a "Freudian Slip" when you accidentally let the truth slip out... before catching yourself and resuming the lies...


----------



## BuzzLOL

68bucks said:


> ...I do think that's where we're headed eventually....


As we've seen with the deadly nonworking fake 'vaccine' shots, we head in the direction of the most bribes/'donations'...








						2 others join Dr. Anthony Fauci in testing positive for COVID-19 after Holy Cross reunion - The Boston Globe
					

Since Dr. Anthony Fauci tested positive for COVID-19 after attending his class reunion at Holy Cross in Worcester last weekend, two other attendees have also tested positive for the virus.




					www.bostonglobe.com


----------



## bud16415

*We can talk about EVs or I can close the thread what be it? *


----------



## BuzzLOL

bud16415 said:


> *We can talk about EVs or I can close the thread what be it? *


So you want to talk about EV's while ignoring the elephant in the room again...


----------



## bud16415

BuzzLOL said:


> So you want to talk about EV's while ignoring the elephant in the room again...


I don't think Dr Fauci has much to do with EV's and in particular Tesla EV's. 

Every problem in the world is not a Dr Fauci caused problem. Start a Dr Fauci thread in the misc. forum and knock yourself out. Once you start it if people insist on talking about EV batteries in it I will come and remind them to come here.


----------



## BuzzLOL

bud16415 said:


> I don't think Dr Fauci has much to do with EV's and in particular Tesla EV's. Every problem in the world is not a Dr Fauci caused problem. Start a Dr Fauci thread in the misc. forum and knock yourself out. Once you start it if people insist on talking about EV batteries in it I will come and remind them to come here.


Guess you missed the point that it's bribes/politics controlling EVERYTHING now... not bribed to lie 'Fauci' who's own lies aren't working for him/not protecting him from the flu...


----------



## bud16415

BuzzLOL said:


> Guess you missed the point that it's bribes/politics controlling everything now... not bribed to lie  'Fauci'...


When the only tool you have is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail.


----------



## BuzzLOL

bud16415 said:


> When the only tool you have is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail.


Fortunately we have lots of tools and eventually use them all...


----------



## Sparky617

bud16415 said:


> *We can talk about EVs or I can close the thread what be it? *


For my money 90% of the posts in the general chit chat forum could be closed.  I don't come here for the politics.  Unfortunately, my preferred method of scanning House Repair Talk for new posts is to use the "What's New" button so all active posts are brought to the top.


----------



## bud16415

Sparky617 said:


> For my money 90% of the posts in the general chit chat forum could be closed.  I don't come here for the politics.  Unfortunately, my preferred method of scanning House Repair Talk for new posts is to use the "What's New" button so all active posts are brought to the top.


You make a good point. I do the same thing it is the easiest way on a small forum like this where we like to read all new home repair related posts to see what is new.  



The Chit Chat forum was started so the guys that wanted to just BS about the weather or the latest fishing trip they went on could post about it. It was a place to form friendships between like minded home improvement type people. All this political stuff is not building friendships and in turn spilling over into every other thread. If my toilet is plugged and I don’t know what to do I really don’t care if a Rep or a Dem or Dr. Fauci comes on and offers me help.



There are a million venues where all people want to talk about are the problems of the world. I just signed up for Truth Social a month ago and I haven’t answered one question about paint or drywall or plumbing yet. If you want to explain to the masses your thoughts on politics that’s a much better venue than here.



So in effect what Sparky617 is saying is he comes here with an interest in home improvement and helping people or at least to talk with others or read what others are thinking about the topic of say EVs only to have wasted his time reading something off topic.



That worries me some and what worries me even more is someone surfs in here thinking of joining and asking a question and they read a bunch of stuff political and decide to find a different forum to ask their question. For the most part people are sick of all this politics that is our lives now and can get it from a 100 directions 24-7 and it might be nice to have a place with a simple theme of DIY and getting a job done they otherwise couldn’t afford or just taking a break from all the rest of this crap while they are here.



Again I’m not saying all the rest is not important, just that this is not the place for it.



I get that something like a thread about EVs in a chit chat forum when gas prices are topping 5 bucks might be drawn into the cultural issues of our time. If we can keep it dealing with facts I’m fine. I see it getting personal and way removed from facts there is a problem.

I know there are people building their own EVs I had an old friend that made and drove one to work starting in the 60s thru 80s. I would rather read about someone doing that at this site than what I’m seeing it turn into over and over.


----------



## Snoonyb

68bucks said:


> I don't know that Im a "proponent" of electrification but I do think that's where we're headed eventually. Of course the answer to your questions is yes we would have all those things you mentioned and then some. Batteries would be small and super efficient etc. but of course that's not the case today just like your "what if" is not the case so it's sort of a moot point imo. The change will be gradual with each administration pushing the system one way or another. The big time greenies will tell you one thing while the fossil fuel crowd will tell you the opposite. The facts and truth will be in between somewhere, as usual. Oil will get more and more expensive as the easily extracted supply continues to deminish. At some point it will be too valuable to just burn up in a car.
> 
> So the whole climate change deal is a harder nut to crack. I'm not an expert on climate so I don't have the credentials to really state facts. I don't consider browsing the web reading articles from my favorite sources as giving me credibility or even facts. I did a bunch of research and wrote a 20 page paper on it about 25 years ago disputing the notion of man-made climate change. These days I'm less sure of that position. I just know if we get it wrong I could be setting my grandkids and some day great grandkids up for a potential miserable existence. Or I can make some generally modest changes in lifestyle and habits and possibly help prevent that. Or I can just throw up my arms and say it's all fake and screw you I got mine you figure it out, won't be my problem, I'll be dead. Sort of like we're doing with the national debt.



I'm, "generally", of a similar mind-set, and the overall point of the post, was, that these blanket decisions to insult the fossil fuel industry, that in turn created a wariness, for them to just blankly respond to a demand, when their eventuality may be curtailed by a political "whim & fancy".

To me, It's the distinct difference between a businessman's approach, and politicians, not thinking it thru, approach.

There is a "*evolutionary"* move to electrification, and *"eventually", *we will get there, so let the process evolve, calmly, like a businessman approach, to exposing the markets to a new product, and while we are at it, how about some recycling, which for the most part, doesn't presently exist.


----------



## BuzzLOL

Sparky617 said:


> For my money 90% of the posts in the general chit chat forum could be closed.


Another person who doesn't quite understand Freedom of Speech...


----------



## Sparky617

BuzzLOL said:


> Another person who doesn't quite understand Freedom of Speech...


I fully understand Free Speech.   This is a home improvement forum and not what I come here for.  And as Bud pointed out in his follow up it may very well turn off people coming here for good home improvement information.  Most of the political discussions here are pretty lame, coming from either the right or the left.  They have the appropriate talking points down but are amazingly free of real information.  YMMV.


----------



## Eddie_T

One good thing about EVs is that they move the pollution to someone else's neighborhood, maybe even offshore.


----------



## Sparky617

Eddie_T said:


> One good thing about EVs is that they move the pollution to someone else's neighborhood, maybe even offshore.


A big problem is we don't have the refinery capacity needed to convert crude into gasoline, diesel, and jet fuel. And given the political atmosphere no company is going to invest the hundreds of millions and years required to build new capacity when the governments in the USA, Europe and elsewhere have made it clear that they want to get us off of hydrocarbons.  That Keystone XL was shut down on day one of this administration after being greenlighted by the previous sent a big signal that was received loud and clear by the oil and gas industry.   To change that trajectory would require bi-partisan support on a scale that isn't possible in the USA today.  It would certainly require leadership we haven't seen in the last 14 years.

EVs are going to have some growth pains, and for many they are going to be extremely challenging to use, especially those who park on the street or live in an apartment.  Given that the big three have thrown so much of their future to pick-ups and SUVs and away from smaller more efficient autos electrification is probably the only path forward long term.  With gas at or over $5 a gallon I don't see a mad rush for new lifestyle pickups and Suburbans in our future.  For me, I have a 23 year old F-150 I'll continue to use until it isn't economical to fix.  It isn't a daily driver and a tank of gas in it usually lasts for several months.  I don't see replacing our Ford Edge or Subaru Forester any time soon as both are fairly low mileage and largely trouble free.  They both are paid for, so even at $5 / gallon for gas I can do a lot of miles before I approach a car payment in gas.  If I were to buy a new car I would strongly consider either a hybrid or an EV.  Likely an EV.  You can rant all you want on this forum, it isn't going to change the path the auto companies and the government are staking out. 

Unfortunately we won't have a real discussion about how to attain a "carbon free future" that provides real solutions. Wind and solar can provide a large portion of the power but they can't provide the base load for calm or cloudy days.  To get there would require so much battery backup we don't have the capacity to build.  Modular nuclear power plants could provide this, but good luck getting one approved.  Rolls Royce is building 60 of them for the UK.  These will be essentially built in a factory with a standard design and interchangeable parts unlike the bespoke plants built in the 1960s and 1970s with numerous design changes along the way.

Here's a piece on the refinery issue.  It is a conservative leaning site, but the news aspect is real.

There may never be another new refinery built in America – HotAir


----------



## BuzzLOL

bud16415 said:


> There are a million venues where all people want to talk about are the problems of the world.
> 
> I just signed up for Truth Social a month ago...  and I haven’t answered one question about paint or drywall or plumbing yet. If you want to explain to the masses your thoughts on politics that’s a much better venue than here.
> 
> I know there are people building their own EVs I had an old friend that made and drove one to work starting in the 60s thru 80s. I would rather read about someone doing that at this site than what I’m seeing it turn into over and over.


Actually, many venues, such as The Hill, have closed their comments section! Or you have to pay now to be on there and get censored. Too much truth was getting out there opposing their published lies. And many others delete any messages with truth.

There's still nothing at Truth Social dot com... and I'm not putting the app on my cell phone... however, I'm sure they discuss 'painting' your face black in there... that's a big political drawback no-no now...

I'm thinking of electrifying a cute little Hedstrom foot scooter I pulled out of somebody's discards... prolly because my buddy has an old Schwinn electric scooter... with a basket on the front it's handy to buzz a few blocks to the grocery store... most don't even mind old people riding them through the store doing shopping... saw an electric motor with chain sprocket for $33... pair of 12 volt scooter batteries for $34... etc... sorry to wander off into DIYer... LOL !


			https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/255010124372_/RARE-Vintage-80s-Hedstrom-Scooter-Old-School-Spoke.jpg


----------



## Spicoli43

I would love to not talk Politics on this thread, so I started 2 about Politics, and they were both shut down.


----------



## BuzzLOL

Sparky617 said:


> A big problem is we don't have the refinery capacity needed to convert crude into gasoline, diesel, and jet fuel.
> 
> That Keystone XL was shut down on day one of this administration after being greenlighted by the previous sent a big signal that was received loud and clear by the oil and gas industry.


Somehow we magically had the capacity to do all that two years ago... even $1.25/gallon gasoline around here if you looked hard for it... plus we were a net ENERGY EXPORTER! Not begging our enemies for oil like now... 

Gov. NitWhitmer of Michigan is still trying to shut down the pipelines that supply oil for gasoline for southern Michigan and northern Ohio... despite oil companies offering $Billions to make it safer... that would close our refineries here and kill thousands more great paying jobs... bump gasoline to their desired $10+/gallon...


----------



## BuzzLOL

Spicoli43 said:


> I would love to not talk Politics on this thread, so I started 2 about Politics, and they were both shut down.


Hard to avoid when Govt.-induced inflation is bumping the price of everything up 50-500% now! Even things that haven't jumped much yet will have to as fuel/transportation/farming/manufacturing/supplier costs triple-quadruple... and soon more...


----------



## Spicoli43

BuzzLOL said:


> Hard to avoid when Govt.-induced inflation is bumping the price of everything up 50-500% now! Even things that haven't jumped much yet will have to as fuel/transportation/farming/manufacturing/supplier costs triple-quadruple... and soon more...



Yes. Everything is politics, it's unavoidable. This thread shouldn't be closed to political discussion because it has to do with a GIANT divide in this country and it is a Red / Blue arguing point to a T. It just happens that the Blue side is wrong on everything. That isn't debatable, it's Scientific fact.


----------



## Sparky617

BuzzLOL said:


> Somehow we magically had the capacity to do all that two years ago... even $1.25/gallon gasoline around here if you looked hard for it... plus we were a net ENERGY EXPORTER! Not begging our enemies for oil like now...
> 
> Gov. NitWhitmer of Michigan is still trying to shut down the pipelines that supply oil for gasoline for southern Michigan and northern Ohio... despite oil companies offering $Billions to make it safer... that would close our refineries here and kill thousands more great paying jobs... bump gasoline to their desired $10+/gallon...


There was a refinery fire that took a major refinery out in Philly.  It was permanently closed.  They've also converted refineries to bio-fuels to meet government mandates.  Many small refineries closed due to the bio fuel requirements.  Demand went way down with COVID and then came roaring back.   There are a multitude of problems some lay at the feet of the current admin, some going back longer.  The point is, we don't have enough capacity today and we're unlikely to get more capacity because the industry isn't going to spend the money when the government has made it abundantly clear they want to drive them out of business.  It isn't a giant conspiracy on the part of the oil companies, it is a rational decision based on the changing regulatory environment.


----------



## Snoonyb

It, again, proves the point, that the citizenry is no longer in charge.


----------



## Flyover

@bud16415 I apologize, probably my fault. In my defense I apologized in advance!    I got distracted by something off-topic and asked a question about it; I was expecting a quick one-sentence or one-paragraph explanation but apparently while I was at work it turned into a full page pile-on. I still don't think I got my question answered other than "Where have you been?" (not consuming journalism or any social media platforms, that's where) but please do feel free to delete all the off-topic stuff.

Anyway, I think I am starting to agree with that guy in the video, who was wearing the "The Future is Eclectic" t-shirt, at least based on my current understanding of things: hybrids are maybe a good idea right now, we will hopefully move to all-electric in the future when some of today's EVs serve as the R&D for scaling up. (Remember, EVs have been around for well over a hundred years.)


----------



## Eddie_T

Government decrees are not well accepted in a free(?) nation and tend to be political. Mainly it's because the government uses consensus science which is  fake science at best. Neither side in the media (or the government) seems to have the whole truth and neither seems eager to encourage real debate. One side says the grid can handle EVs. The other side quotes a number of new nuclear power plants needed. The middle says it can be handled with careful planning which we all know won't happen because some sacrifice will be required.


----------



## Spicoli43

Flyover... You didn't get your answer in post #374?


----------



## Spicoli43

I don't know if servicing EV's has been discussed... One post in the comments for the article is as follows... "If you are thinking of a Tesla, be aware that SERVICE is often VERY difficult to get.  I have to wait about a MONTH for a Tesla service no matter how simple the problem.  Many problems simply are not solvable by local service particularly problems involving software causing sudden braking, and the so called "Full Self Driving" problems are not even addressable at present.  We owners hope this will improve VERY soon!"

As far as Tesla, lets take a "cheap one" at 50 Large... I just figured my weekly grocery trip in with my current car at a *hopefully* not ever existent $10 a gallon... I used to drive for fun, now it's 100% business, just what needs to happen and nothing more... For just the base cost of 50 Large for a Tesla, not including ANYTHING else, I can drive said shopping trips in an ICE car at $10 per gallon for 48 years, which will be well past my allowed driving time anyway.

Ok, let's cut that in half for an "Econ" EV at 25 Large... 24 Years. That would be great, except then comes in the replacement battery and the charging and the service and the parts, which would probably make it a 60 Large car at the end. 

Every possible scenario I run on EV's falls flat on it's face. Even if I was a Multi Millionaire... Refer to the quote above.

The video is from Bainbridge Island, WA, close to where I grew up... People there can buy a Tesla for every day of the week, so the accuracy of the demand is just that. 









						Electric car revolution: You bought one, but can you get it serviced?
					

Car manufacturers are ramping up their lineups of electric vehicle offerings, but one expert says dealerships are not ready or equipped to service them.




					www.foxbusiness.com


----------



## Eddie_T

One thing that's hard to fathom is why someone would come into the chit-chat area to say they don't like it, or that it shouldn't be here. After all it was their choice to enter and at times they join the discussion before beginning to whine.


----------



## 68bucks

Spicoli43 said:


> I don't know if servicing EV's has been discussed... One post in the comments for the article is as follows... "If you are thinking of a Tesla, be aware that SERVICE is often VERY difficult to get.  I have to wait about a MONTH for a Tesla service no matter how simple the problem.  Many problems simply are not solvable by local service particularly problems involving software causing sudden braking, and the so called "Full Self Driving" problems are not even addressable at present.  We owners hope this will improve VERY soon!"
> 
> As far as Tesla, lets take a "cheap one" at 50 Large... I just figured my weekly grocery trip in with my current car at a *hopefully* not ever existent $10 a gallon... I used to drive for fun, now it's 100% business, just what needs to happen and nothing more... For just the base cost of 50 Large for a Tesla, not including ANYTHING else, I can drive said shopping trips in an ICE car at $10 per gallon for 48 years, which will be well past my allowed driving time anyway.
> 
> Ok, let's cut that in half for an "Econ" EV at 25 Large... 24 Years. That would be great, except then comes in the replacement battery and the charging and the service and the parts, which would probably make it a 60 Large car at the end.
> 
> Every possible scenario I run on EV's falls flat on it's face. Even if I was a Multi Millionaire... Refer to the quote above.
> 
> The video is from Bainbridge Island, WA, close to where I grew up... People there can buy a Tesla for every day of the week, so the accuracy of the demand is just that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Electric car revolution: You bought one, but can you get it serviced?
> 
> 
> Car manufacturers are ramping up their lineups of electric vehicle offerings, but one expert says dealerships are not ready or equipped to service them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxbusiness.com


So do you suppose that people went through the same math when cars were fist beginning to be mainstream? What a stupid idea! I can by 100 bales of hay and 10 horses before it would be close to the cost of a car! And service! I would have to go clear over to Springfield to find a guy that can work on the darn thing. And then I'd probably have to tow it with my horse! The automobile will never make sense, it's a lark, a rich man's folly! Think a conversation like that ever happened? I can easily imagine it yet here we are.


----------



## Eddie_T

I didn't realize that our nuclear energy depended on Russia. 
INSANELY VULNERABLE: If Russia cuts off supply of enriched uranium to US power companies, America’s nuclear energy reactors will close within a year

It probably reached the end of its useful life but the Palisades nuclear plant in Michigan was shut down just as we begin the brownout season.


----------



## Sparky617

Eddie_T said:


> One thing that's hard to fathom is why someone would come into the chit-chat area to say they don't like it, or that it shouldn't be here. After all it was their choice to enter and at times they join the discussion before beginning to whine.


I'm not whining.  You can post what you want.  I'm not trying to censor anyone.  However, I find on the general chit chat page people will say things to other posters they'd never say face to face.  It then spills over into the other posts when people are asking for advice.  The theme of this site is home improvement not politics.  Many can't seem to discuss politics without getting in the other persons virtual face.  IMHO the general chit chat thread doesn't improve the home improvement theme of the site.  If it weren't for the way I access new posts I'd never see it.  I don't scroll down through all the various sub headings looking for new posts, I just use the "What's New" button to bring all the new posts into one place.  I ignore most of the general chit chat posts.


----------



## Sparky617

Eddie_T said:


> I didn't realize that our nuclear energy depended on Russia.
> INSANELY VULNERABLE: If Russia cuts off supply of enriched uranium to US power companies, America’s nuclear energy reactors will close within a year
> 
> It probably reached the end of its useful life but the Palisades nuclear plant in Michigan was shut down just as we begin the brownout season.


I believe we have Madame Secretary Herself to thank for that.


----------



## Spicoli43

68bucks said:


> So do you suppose that people went through the same math when cars were fist beginning to be mainstream? What a stupid idea! I can by 100 bales of hay and 10 horses before it would be close to the cost of a car! And service! I would have to go clear over to Springfield to find a guy that can work on the darn thing. And then I'd probably have to tow it with my horse! The automobile will never make sense, it's a lark, a rich man's folly! Think a conversation like that ever happened? I can easily imagine it yet here we are.



Weren't you alive back then? You're seriously comparing a time long ago to now, when the price of a new Tesla battery pack that has an 8 year warranty is $17,000, almost the price of a Subaru WHOLE CAR? That $17,000 will be $25,000 before the Obama admin is kicked to the curb. JUST the battery!!!


----------



## Spicoli43

Sparky617 said:


> I'm not whining.  You can post what you want.  I'm not trying to censor anyone.  However, I find on the general chit chat page people will say things to other posters they'd never say face to face.  It then spills over into the other posts when people are asking for advice.  The theme of this site is home improvement not politics.  Many can't seem to discuss politics without getting in the other persons virtual face.  IMHO the general chit chat thread doesn't improve the home improvement theme of the site.  If it weren't for the way I access new posts I'd never see it.  I don't scroll down through all the various sub headings looking for new posts, I just use the "What's New" button to bring all the new posts into one place.  I ignore most of the general chit chat posts.



Why wouldn't people talk about politics to another person face to face? That makes no sense.


----------



## 68bucks

Spicoli43 said:


> Weren't you alive back then? You're seriously comparing a time long ago to now, when the price of a new Tesla battery pack that has an 8 year warranty is $17,000, almost the price of a Subaru WHOLE CAR? That $17,000 will be $25,000 before the Obama admin is kicked to the curb. JUST the battery!!!


No that was before my time. What I am getting at is that with any significant technological change there are plant of nay sayers. You are also taking costs for a young product still rapidly developing. As I said before, remember when a VHS player cost $600? That was in the 70's, who would ever be so dumb to buy one? Yet 20 years later and the we're dirt cheap and everyone had one. Of course 20 years later there we extinct. So yes an EV doesn't seem like a good value today, I don't want one yet. But there are always the early adopters that want the latest gadget. I think we are just barely past that point now since the large manufacturers are now offering options. Wait another 10 years and see what it looks like. 

I get your point, this is a DYI site so I think by our nature we are cheapskates so the first reaction is to do the math, doesn't add up when I compare it to my old reliable 19xx whatever. But to dismiss the whole EV concept as a farce based on that math assumes a static world. But todat you're right no EV for me for a good while. I bought a new truck and a new SUV in the last 2 years so I'm set for some time to come.


----------



## Spicoli43

But you're comparing Kiwi fruits to Giant Pumpkins. The standard car battery is like 12" x 9" or something, while the Tesla batteries look like they are 4' x 4'. Will they eventually reduce the size? Maybe. Will they reduce the cost? No... At least not Tesla. Elon didn't become the richest in the land by selling stuff cheaply, even though almost everything he releases is *radio edit*. 

Nothing is going down in price for Tesla, guaranteed. The dude is an extreme narcissist. Will the prices of other competitors come down if the tech changes and the battery is small as a briefcase? Probably not, since there will always be that demand for the latest and the greatest. 

Your scenario would work for almost everything except EV. It's just not happening in our lifetimes because there is 8000 variables. It will kinda happen and sputter along, but regardless of everything, Oil comes back when Obama is gone. ICE vehicles aren't going anywhere.


----------



## Eddie_T

Why would EVs get any cheaper with time? ICE vehicles have moved out of my price range. Even a Jeep is over $50K and like pickups are no longer small  easily maneuvered vehicles. The Thar from India seems to be close to a CJ-5 reset. I don't know if it's available in the US yet or what its pricing is.


----------



## Sparky617

Spicoli43 said:


> Why wouldn't people talk about politics to another person face to face? That makes no sense.


It is the tone used, not the subject.  They'll call each other things they'd never do in person.


----------



## Spicoli43

Sparky617 said:


> It is the tone used, not the subject.  They'll call each other things they'd never do in person.



I don't know what is ruffling your feathers that isn't affecting anybody else, but I can tell you're talking about me. Out with it.


----------



## Spicoli43

Eddie_T said:


> Why would EVs get any cheaper with time? ICE vehicles have moved out of my price range. Even a Jeep is over $50K and like pickups are no longer small  easily maneuvered vehicles. The Thar from India seems to be close to a CJ-5 reset. I don't know if it's available in the US yet or what its pricing is.
> 
> View attachment 28063



I built a Thar online with whatever options I picked for about $19K using a currency converter. Who knows how much to transport it to the states, and then to get it licensed, because you know any State will want to charge extra because it's right hand drive. 

That being said, Jeep is utter garbage these days, in my opinion since Fiat took over. My Sister had a 2011 Grand Cherokee that was in the shop probably 10 times, 4 of the times they couldn't get parts, something to do with electric components... The headlight lamps were $300 each, the seats were like sitting on concrete... On and on... 







__





						Configurator
					

Fill a simple form and get customised pricing for the vehicle you choose to purchase from Mahindra Automotive.




					auto.mahindra.com


----------



## Sparky617

Spicoli43 said:


> I don't know what is ruffling your feathers that isn't affecting anybody else, but I can tell you're talking about me. Out with it.


Nothing has ruffled my feathers.  I do find a number of the conspiracy theory posts dumb beyond commenting.  I've seen the animosity in some of the threads spill over into the home improvement threads.   For the most part I just surf on by most of the general chit chat posts, sometimes shaking my head over the titles.  But hey, you do you.


----------



## Spicoli43

Sparky617 said:


> Nothing has ruffled my feathers.  I do find a number of the conspiracy theory posts dumb beyond commenting.  I've seen the animosity in some of the threads spill over into the home improvement threads.   For the most part I just surf on by most of the general chit chat posts, sometimes shaking my head over the titles.  But hey, you do you.



Your feathers are ruffled because you're the only one that brings up "conspiracy theory posts" that you don't mention by subject but say that people wouldn't say those things to others in public. Why wouldn't people mention "conspiracy theories" to others in public? "Conspiracy theory" is just a Leftist term to describe a subject that they can't debate because they will lose. So, that's everything.


----------

