# Advice for this nightmare basement?



## jmr106 (Dec 26, 2015)

My parents bought their house in 1979. After my father passed, my mother took over the house. This house has a terrible basement. My father never knew what to do with it. The previous owners didn't seem to, either. The FHA made the former owners remove the water heater that was in the kitchen at that time and put it in the basement, before an FHA loan could be made to my parents. The basement was just a crawlspace dirt basement, so they dug out an area for a dirt sump at one end and put the water heater at the other end. It measures about 15' long x 3.5' wide and about 3.5' deep with a cinderblock retaining wall around the interior. They left the bottom of it dirt. As you can see, the crawlspace all over the place under the house isn't flat like in a lot of basements. I have no idea why. It was apparently like that when my parents got it. Not sure what the former owners did or why it has a lot of ups and downs everywhere. The house was built in 1950 and is a brick house. 


Eventually, a central heat/air system was installed in between the water heater and sump hole years and years ago. There was nowhere else to put it and it couldn't have been put in another room or the attic. It is elevated about a foot to prevent it from being flooded, since water runs freely on top of the dirt floor in the hole. As you can see with that water heater, yes, it is sitting directly ON the dirt that the water (coming out of the retaining wall) freely runs on top of inside of the hole. I know that is bad for it, obviously.

When it rains moderately for 2-3 days, the pump comes on. That is to be expected. If it rains heavy for a day or day and a half, the pump comes on a lot. During one of the 3-4 rain events where a system stalls out over the area, both pumps sometimes work a ridiculous amount, pumping sometimes 75+ gallons per minute and up. 

It is a nasty mess down there. My mother is selling the house in the spring, so I'd rather put money towards another place rather than invest a lot into try to fix this. 

Now, my mother and father wondered for all of those years why the sump flow was so high. My father dealt with basement flooding a lot inside of that dug out hole. Everything else stays dry. I began studying a map of our area. Down at the end of our street where you turn onto another cross-street, the corner house there that is in line with ours has a creek in the back yard that is openly visible. I looked at the map and their back yard and area where the creek is would be running right through our back yard (possibly near the house). My father once dug up something about 6-8 feet from the back of the house. He was metal detecting for fun and dug up what he thought was a "storm drain" covered with a big piece of tin. From what I understand, it was too big to remove to see inside. I'm wondering now if this isn't that creek that is flowing underground and was covered over before they put the houses on this land in 1950.  

Are county records required to have this documented somewhere if a creek or stream was once covered over and runs underneath our property? How can I investigate it further? I'm speculating that when it rains a lot, whatever means they have used to contain the underground creek that they possibly covered over...it may be overflowing that. Certainly so if they just nailed a bunch of tin over it. The water leaking out of the sides would seep into the ground and cause the high underground flow that I described above.


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## jmr106 (Dec 26, 2015)

A couple of more pics...


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## nealtw (Dec 26, 2015)

Welcome to the site and yup, that is ugly.
It looks at the pump like there is a concrete floor and it looks like mud is coming in around the hot water tank.
When the house was built they likely put in a perimeter drain about the level of the bottom of the foundation but when they dug the trench under the house they went well below the drain level and now you are into a stream or spring or perhaps this is just the water from around the house and the roof just bypassing the old drain if one is there, it may not be functional.
1. make sure all landscaping is sloped away from the house, re-rout downspouts away from the house, well away.
2. the interior block wall should have been waterproofed on the dirts side with proper perimeter drain that leads directly to the sump with drain rock and drain fabric to keep the mud out and then the pump should have been a sealed canister to keep all moisture out of the area..Fabric and gravel should have come up to the surface to pick up any water and then the dirt in the rest of the area should have been covered with poly.
Non if this sounds cheap or easy.


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## jmr106 (Dec 26, 2015)

There is a light layer of concrete that was apparently put on top of the dirt near the pump, in the pump hole and partially extending up to the other side in the hole. However, it is so light of a layer that it is literally breaking up if you walk on it. Somebody didn't know what they were doing. I don't know much about construction, but I would imagine that this concrete should have been at least a few inches thick. As you can see, even the side of the sump hole is crumbling and reveals how thin that concrete layer is. 

No, none of that sounds very cheap or easy to do. Do you think I would be successful in diverting the water to the sump hole by putting some type of plastic drain pipes into the cinderblock holes at the base of the wall and sealing around them somehow? I have no idea how to make such a thing work, however. Sounds kind of whacky, but without tearing the wall down and/or doing a ton of digging in an area where there is very little to do that, it sounds like a better temporary solution.


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## nealtw (Dec 27, 2015)

First on the list is to get water away from the house on the outside.
Next would be to dig out much of that skim coat of concrete and dig a tench out for a perfearted pipe and gravel to run water to the sump. Dimple board on the inside of the block wall will  devert yhe water down and then a new skim coat of concrete.
Dimple board is made for the outside but in the photo they have used it on the inside down the wall under the floor to where the drain pipe is.


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## slownsteady (Dec 27, 2015)

:agree: Also called sheet drain. In your case, it might be better / easier on the outside of the blocks. But in either case, you have to supply a french drain at the base of it to channel the water away. I think you've been lucky that the existing sump has been able to keep up. I would attempt to move the water before it gets there.
Interesting about the "creek" in the back. You may never find the answer to that question. But you might get some knowledge by digging a few test holes in the yard to see if the moisture is dissipating as you get further away from the stream.


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## jmr106 (Dec 28, 2015)

Thanks for the help, guys. Due to how close the dirt is on the outside of the wall, there is no way (or space) that I could put the sheet drain on the outside of it where the dirt is. At least, without tearing the whole thing apart. I would for sure have to do an install on the inside of the wall.

The thing is...that area on the back side of the pumps. That is solid cement. You can see the part where it is actually quite straight. It is many inches thick. I have no idea why that particular area what such a thing, but the rest doesn't. I wouldn't be able to dig that up to put a perimeter drain under that. It would literally take a jackhammer, and I'm not sure how far down it extends. At least down to the base of the sump hole. I don't even know why that is there, as it serves no purpose. This was all dirt before they dug it out, so somebody put that there for an unknown reason. Everything else appears to be dirt except for that part. Very peculiar. 

Okay, so when they built this wall, they just put some kind of mortar or concrete and stacked the cinderblocks up. A lot of places have little cracks and crevices where the water sprays out a little bit in various spots. Should I seal those places before putting up the sheet drain, or are you saying to just put the sheet drain on the wall and the water will just come out and hit it and fall down to the bottom? 

What is used to affix the sheet drain to the cinderblocks that would actually make it stay attached to the wall when it got wet?

Okay, so say that I get the sheet drain up. What goes underneath? Dig a trench and basically put a drain of some type all the way around that it would go into so that it would all come out in one spot near the sump? I guess I don't understand exactly how the trench would work. Would rocks or something be on top of it to allow the water to flow into the pipe faster? I have heard of the perforated pipes and such. I just wonder if the water would flow into that type of pipe and the trench itself fast enough to basically not start going everywhere on the dirt again. 

With the exception of a few places, water is building up in the wall all the way around since the cinderblocks are hollow. I can literally look down into the top holes of the cinderblocks and see the water inside of them sometimes. So technically would I need to make more holes before putting the sheet drain up on the wall?

Well, during the days when my father was around to mess with it and I was really young, they only had a single 1/3HP sump pump. I have no idea why it didn't occur to him to install more than one. So I have heard the horror stories that my mother has told me about him going down there to find that the water overtopped the pump and it tripped the breaker. Or, the power would go out and he would go down there to find about 3.5 feet of water basically up to the inside of the bricks and covering the water heater halfway.

When I got old enough to understand about sump pumps, learned to do pvc plumbing and such, I installed double pumps to keep up with the flow, seeing the impending doom if there was only one. The other day after the 3-4 days of rain, the second pump came on and they were both barely keeping the water in the sump hole. They both pump a combined 105 gallons per minute total, so that's why I have so many questions about the trench and it keeping control of the water. I will likely be installing either a 1/2HP or 3/4HP iON Storm Pro. Still figuring out which to put in there. The latter can do about 4,500GPH by itself. The 1/2HP can do about 3,800GPH. Granted, there was wiggle room for the water and a lot of times for the pumps to "catch up"  However, the submersible pumps seem way better in that they can run longer and are cooled by the water that they are in. They seem to pump a lot more water, too. It wasn't until recently that I found the SEC America corporation that actually makes real backup inverters that can convert the marine battery power to power the main pumps. Before, I tried one of those 12V systems and it was junk. Failed in no time. With that, I don't have to worry about the power going on. So I'll be getting that pretty soon, as well. With the heat and air machine and the water heater inside of that hole, that's about $8,000 worth of damage if it floods due to power failure. 

I carefully looked at the map and there seems to be a direct line with that creek/stream with our back yard. I have noticed that the middle of the back yard floods during heavy rain. All of the yards near ours do, too. It doesn't really slope down, either. By floods...I mean that there is about 6" of water running down the middle of our yard and neighbor's yards as if following some source. They all seem to be in the same place. It eventually goes away, but takes a while.


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## slownsteady (Dec 28, 2015)

> The thing is...that area on the back side of the pumps. That is solid cement. You can see the part where it is actually quite straight. It is many inches thick. I have no idea why that particular area what such a thing, but the rest doesn't. I wouldn't be able to dig that up to put a perimeter drain under that. It would literally take a jackhammer, and I'm not sure how far down it extends. At least down to the base of the sump hole.



Your sump hole would likely have collapsed years ago if it wasn't supported by solid concrete. And that is part of the reason why I suggested outside the wall for the sheet drain.
The object with the sheet drain is to cover the full height of the wall, capture the water and allow to drain _below_ the base of the wall. I don't mean to go under the wall, but to divert it completely top-to-bottom. You should read up on french drains or foundation drains, which is essentially what you want to do here. You can search the threads here and on other home repair sites. If you put the sheet on the inside, you would still need to excavate at the base of the wall, below grade. if the sheet is on the outside, it would catch the water before it entered the blocks. The dirt that you remove when putting in the sheet gets replaced, so that is holding the sheet in place against the wall.
Thinking outside the box (or the trench, in this case) I wonder if you could build a barrier wall, like the block wall with a sheet drain, out from under the crawl space somewhere in the backyard. You have the advantage of building it in a less confined space and the ability to make it as deep as it needs to be to block / divert that stream. It may divert the water well enough to keep the crawl space less wet. But this is just a thought, and may not be the right solution.
In any case, to make this right, be prepared to dig into this project. There is no easy answer that I can see.


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## nealtw (Dec 28, 2015)

Are you sure? it looks to me that mud has washed in around the water tank and maybe tyhere is concrete below this mud.
I did intend to suggest the dimple board to be inside the block wall, as you have pointed out the blocks are full of water and to solve that pressure from building up you drill half inch hole in blocks to let the water flow. as the blocks may fill with mud over time, two or three sets of holes so as the lower ones plug up water can get out of the next hole, that would give your repair a longer life.
In the photo I posted, notice that the sump is sealed, that is so no moisture in the area as moisture is not good for the house.
So my plan would be.
Jack hammer the concrete out, or just a trench about 12 wide beside the block walls and remove the concrete sump, unless you can find a plastic sump that fits inside it.
If you are not up to doing this work yourself, call the readymix companies and get referreces for a labourer that can do this work. Every city up here has companies with names like labour ready and they rent you a man for about $30 an hour, just make sure you get their most experienced man. And it is important you know what you want and you are onsite to make sure the plan is followed.
I would pull the tank out to make room to work and depending on age and condition of the old one maybe just replace that with a new one.
Dig the trench down about a foot and add 3/4" crushed gravel to 10" below the top of the concrete. Lay drain fabric and install perferated pipe in the trench and plumb to the new sump and top up the gravel to  the top of the pipe and wrap the top gravel and pipe with fabric.
Drill the holes in the blocks to allow easy water flows
All the dirt in the rest of the crawlspace should be leveled and covered with at least 6 mil poly and draiped over the block wall.
Intstall the dimple board so that it reaches from the top of the block wall down and bends out to cover the pipe like in the photo. Use RED tuck tap to seal and joins and cuts that have to be made to allow for fit. Tapcon screws can be used to fix the board to the wall. Tape the joint between the board and the poly that covers the rest of the dirt.
Replace the concrete and replace the tank.
Take photos as you go so any home inspector can appreciate that the work was done in a reasonable fashion to solve any and all problems.

If you hire labour like I suggested you will have to rent the tools. Much cheaper than hiring a contractor. Half the time the contractor just has a rentle place send out the tools and he supplies the same labourer that you can find.


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## nealtw (Dec 28, 2015)

We never talked about where the wter is going, make sure it is not coming back into the area.


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## jmr106 (Dec 29, 2015)

nealtw said:


> We never talked about where the wter is going, make sure it is not coming back into the area.



1 1/2" PVC extends out and away from the basement for about 20 feet or so. A flexible plastic extension pipe is attached and carries it about another 20 feet. The discharge site is on a grassy part of the yard, and basically flows on a slight incline. It flows in our yard, but is feet away from the fence and eventually runs into the neighbor's back yard, but they don't even use their back yard or care at all. Even when it hasn't rained for a couple of days after a 3 day rain, the pump will sometimes take two days to stop coming on. Sometimes it will come on every 20-30 minutes all day for two days after the rain. Even with drainage problems and the setup, isn't that a bit much given that it is discharging a good distance from the house? I find it hard to believe that it would be running back in from 40 feet away on a quick basis. That's like 5,000 gallons per day if it comes on every half of an hour, and that's when it isn't even raining. It should be all out of the bricks and dirt and everything after a couple of days.


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## slownsteady (Dec 29, 2015)

If the stream is in back of your house, and you are concerned about that, then why would you be dumping water there??? If it seeps into the soil, then it is contributing to the flow that you are worried about. You need to move the water downhill and away from your house


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## jmr106 (Dec 29, 2015)

slownsteady said:


> If the stream is in back of your house, and you are concerned about that, then why would you be dumping water there??? If it seeps into the soil, then it is contributing to the flow that you are worried about. You need to move the water downhill and away from your house


 
No other option. The back yard is about 175 feet long and maybe 40 feet wide. The back portion has massive pine trees that I wouldn't want to risk discharging under and making the ground soggy in addition to rain. It goes almost back to them, but has a little distance. The back of the back yard slopes down a little, but would retain big puddles. The middle part is theoretically where the creek would be running, if not a little closer to the house. No other place to discharge. The front yard is half of that size. Discharging to a sewer is, of course, illegal.


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## slownsteady (Dec 29, 2015)

Unfortunate. What is the general grade of the area around your house? Is it sloping toward the front? Does your house sit higher or lower than your neighbors on either side?


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## nealtw (Dec 30, 2015)

I grew up in a house with a pump in the basement that just dumped water outside and came back in until the ciy sewer came in and then we worked something like a french drain so the water to access the sand around the sewer pipe and that carried water away for years. Then when that didn't work anymore One of my brothers just hooked into the sewer, never was cought. But I woulodn't suggest that. The city dosn't have a storm water system at the road?


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## jmr106 (Jan 3, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I grew up in a house with a pump in the basement that just dumped water outside and came back in until the ciy sewer came in and then we worked something like a french drain so the water to access the sand around the sewer pipe and that carried water away for years. Then when that didn't work anymore One of my brothers just hooked into the sewer, never was cought. But I woulodn't suggest that. The city dosn't have a storm water system at the road?



When I first became old enough to be aware of the sump and how the water flow worked, I actually extended the PVC pipe out further away from the house. They literally had a pipe sticking out of the side of the house that was about 1.5 feet long and dumping right outside of the basement wall where it would just go right back in. Now it goes a considerable distance from the house.

I'm going to post a few pics of the back yard that I took the other day after it had been raining for a few days on and off. You can see the large pines in the back. It slants downhill there, but then has a little uphill area right after that which traps big puddles. I have some more that I can't find right now for some reason, but they actually show the large flooding that runs right down through the center of all of the yards towards the discharge location. During downpours that last for a while, it literally looks like a creek flowing from yard to yard. Granted, it dissipates fairly quickly, so sometimes I second guess whether there is something flow under there or not. The map puts it at 1,100 to 1,200 feet away. Straight shot right through our back yard if the creek on the corner goes straight. Not a thing related to a creek is visible in the yards behind us or yards on our side. It has to be going somewhere, and the part that is visible down the street is straight for as far as you can see it, so I believe that it runs straight up. My initial theory was that back when they were developing the land, they build some kind of halfway culvert. I don't know why, but I envisioned some type of gulley with sides and a bottom. An open top with tin nailed over it (and then covered over with dirt), which would have lined up with what my father found. Then I got to looking around online recently and found a video. Our house is right outside of Atlanta. It was a home inspector's video where they had this large flat tin-covered thing covering an actual concrete bomb shelter under the dirt. Their water line was many feet up the wall, so at some point thousands of gallons had seeped into there. Then there's the possible septic tank, I guess is still theoretically possible since it was a 1950's house. Maybe the water table is just high in the area, I'm not sure. Going to test that out sometime by digging a hole and seeing what happens. I have pondered digging for the said object just to make sure that I don't have some big concrete structure under the ground sucking in a ton of water and overflowing when it gets full. All I know is, my mother was saying over the past few days, "That pump is STILL coming on??"  It hasn't rained in 3 days now. It has virtually stopped now, but it takes a ridiculous amount of time for all of the water to go out and stay out. I have no reason to believe that the water that is being pumped 30 feet away is seeping back into the basement, though. Seems improbable.









The sump discharges here. It goes straight out about 30+ feet from the house and 90's off to the right just shy of the fence. It discharges on our property in the grass, 3-4 feet from the fence. To my knowledge, they have no sump next door. Instead, their water heater is in the house (one of my parents knows the lady that owns that house). The discharge point is way back in their yard and isn't visible. It just casually runs across the ground through the fence without being seen. Their tenant never uses the yard for anything. 















Back of the house, sort of showing the grade of the land. It doesn't look like it is sloping towards the house that much to me. 






That spot just in front of the old trash can...that long dirt strip. Grass doesn't like to grow there. There is always flowing puddle on top of the ground there. I presume this is the spot where whatever that object dug up in the past is under the ground. The brick hole is maybe 10-12 feet from this area, a few feet on the other side of the wall. 


Typical puddling around the other corner of the house when it rains a lot.








That basement door does get a little flow underneath it, but not that much. Haven't really figured out a solution to block the water from going under there. Building a new door won't do it. Inside the edge of the door is concrete. Outside of the edge of the door, a couple of large patio stones are embedded in the dirt. If any more dirt was added to the area, the basement door wouldn't open properly. Also, yes, that downspout does need an extension on it. Working on getting one for that.


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## slownsteady (Jan 3, 2016)

Are we missing a picture? I don't see a basement door in the "typical puddling" picture


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## jmr106 (Jan 3, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Are we missing a picture? I don't see a basement door in the "typical puddling" picture



Yep, it apparently still limits it to 4 photos and chopped the other one off.


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## nealtw (Jan 3, 2016)

I would do a couple pirk tests near the tree line. 
And running pipes for the downspouts will have to be looked at.


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## Sparky617 (Jan 4, 2016)

You have a crawlspace not a basement.  It is fairly common around here for crawlspaces to somewhat follow the contour of the ground rather than having a completely flat floor.  This is true in new homes selling for $500K and up.  Flat lots in this part of NC are pretty rare.  If the builder goes to the trouble of terracing the land to make flat lots they'll generally do a slab foundation instead of a crawlspace.

The ground should all be covered with plastic, ideally I'd want a flat floor covered with concrete, which is why I bought one of the rare homes with a basement in my neighborhood.  In my part of NC you won't find a completely in-ground basement. The back of my house is completely above grade.


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## bud16415 (Jan 4, 2016)

I know your mothers plan is to sell the house soon, but if I was a buyer and saw that I would run not walkaway. If you do sell it most likely it will be subject to a home inspection and I suspect there will be recourse when the first big rain hits back on the seller. I bought a house once that had an awful well with no recovery the owner put up with no water hardly for 45 years and then had to dig a new good well for me to be able to buy it. 

Is there any way you could relocate the furnace and water heater back up above grade by building a small addition on to the house to be an equipment room. I really think that&#8217;s what I would do with that high of a water table. 

I have seen where a subdivision back in those days diverted water as you think might have happened. Those people are long gone but if that is the case sometimes local townships will help with fixing problems like that if they involve more than one property owner. In your case that&#8217;s true as the water is coming from someone&#8217;s property to yours and should be leaving yours to go back to a creek. You would have to know that to be the case and go talk to them it can&#8217;t hurt. if they say no then suggest you are going to plug it up and see where it backs up.


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## nealtw (Jan 4, 2016)

It might be best to contact some landscape companies that specialise in handling water in your area.


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## slownsteady (Jan 4, 2016)

Neal makes a good point (as usual). This problem goes directly to the value of the house. If you brought in a real estate agent to give you an estimate of your listing, he/she would be able to compare your house to others in the neighborhood. Then you could decide what the work  would be worth - and it will be _work_. The downspout(s) are definitely worth routing away from the house at no real cost, but the rest of the fix is going to get involved.


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## jmr106 (Jan 9, 2016)

Out of curiosity, how much would something like this cost if a waterproofing company did it? I'm quite familiar with the surrounding cities and honestly wouldn't want any of those labor pool type people hanging around the house. 

If I were to try to do this myself, do you think the wall would be somewhat easy to remove in order to avoid having to buy who knows how many bricks again?

How thick should I expect the concrete base of the floor to be in that hole? Would they have followed some type of older code for an allotted thickness, or just made it whatever amount? I'm kind of wondering if I'd be able to break that up for myself. This would be a project that would take a while, of course. Would I be able to sledge it out or would that just break it up unevenly? A jackhammer in that area seems a tad bit interesting.

I have entertained the idea that the water heater could be either moved outside (a house next door has a crawlspace basement and theirs was built on the back of the house with this little wooden containment room of some sort just big enough to hold the water heater) or converted to one of those on-the-fly electric heaters.

The bigger issue is what to do with that heating/air system. Regardless of who does the work (me or a company), that entire system is in the way, as well as the water heater that is right next to the wall. When the system was put in, they asked them about an outside unit. They said that they could put one in, but they'd have to punch an enormous hole in the foundation rocks of the house in order to run the vent pipes through. Obviously not a good thing.

A lot of friends who have seen it keep telling me, "Man, forget that. Just get yourself some hydraulic cement or mortar, run some flex perforated pipe into where it is draining at the brick areas and seal those pipes into the wall. Dig into the dirt on top of the washed in dirt and run them under it, all connecting into a plastic sump basin and put your pumps in there."

Without digging the basement out and it being an obvious code violation (not that the whole thing isn't anyway), their solution doesn't sound like it would work that well in that I'm not confident that the pipes would seal into those holes as well as they claim. Any thoughts on that?

I'm probably going to see if my mother will be able to find a realtor who can deal with the issue and see if the house will sell as-is. If my own estimates are right based on researching companies online, this whole project could cost about as much as building a whole room onto the back of the house to house the water heater and heater/air system. However, that wouldn't even work because all of the pipes would need be relocated and all of the vent hoses still wouldn't be going under the house to all of the vents unless a hole was punched into the original rock foundation of the house. So that's kind of a square-one thing that goes in a circle.


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## slownsteady (Jan 10, 2016)

I think for any of us to guesstimate this would be hard because labor costs are dependent on your area. But let's get a better idea of the job.
How much headroom is in the crawlspace?
How far down do your foundation walls go?
Did you explore that metal cover and is there a stream nearby?


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## jmr106 (Jan 10, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> I think for any of us to guesstimate this would be hard because labor costs are dependent on your area. But let's get a better idea of the job.
> How much headroom is in the crawlspace?
> How far down do your foundation walls go?
> Did you explore that metal cover and is there a stream nearby?



Well, of course the dug out hole area with the bricks, you can stand up in and have about 7' or so from the bottom of the hole to the floor joists. The rest of the actual crawlspace dirt varies from probably 2.5 feet in some areas to as low as 1' or so towards to front area of the house under the kitchen. 

Not sure how far the foundation walls go. Is the best way to tell to just dig a small hole down and see, beside the house?

I haven't dug down to find the metal cover as of yet. One reason being that details are slightly sketchy. I have asked my mother where it was located and her general response was "somewhere out there behind the house" and it wasn't really helpful. I can't remember if I actually physically saw it as a kid or not, or if I just remember my mother and father telling me about it as a kid and getting my own mental image of it. That was so long ago. Kind of scared to dig deep with the rain that we've had today (don't want to get a flow of water out of the ground if there is something drain-related down there that doesn't have tightly packed dirt as a barrier. I think that my idea of previous construction crews covering over a creek (say, back in '50 when it was built) with just nailing down tin over some kind of makeshift culvert is probably really unrealistic, even for those times. If anything, there's some kind of culvert pipe that was ran underground the ground. Who knows, maybe it has a hole or holes in it, isn't very stable, etc. I guess it could possibly be an old septic bank, but my idea is that this is like 6' from the back center of the house. I would think that even in older days when codes weren't as strict, they would have had that further away out in the yard somewhere. The idea of a "storm sewer" as my parents called it seems fishy to be in the back yard. Granted, a house up the street on the corner has or had a septic tank and we used to smell it sometimes years ago. So obviously they weren't on the city sewer at some point. 

Maybe later today I'll try to dig down some and see what I can find. From what I understand, it was big enough that my father didn't seem to want to go through the trouble to dig it up so that the big tin lid could be removed. I once had someone suggest to me that it could be a drain cleanout for the sewer pipe. We have that out in the back yard and I know exactly where the general area of that is. It has the screw-on metal cap and everything. Apparently what I'd be looking for is an object of many feet wide by who knows how many feet long and covered completely with a piece of flat tin like you'd fine on a roof or something. That's going to be really interesting if it runs the length of the yard, though. Maybe I can find it and take some pics.


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## slownsteady (Jan 10, 2016)

Sounds like it could be an abandoned septic tank or drywell. If you have a rough idea of where it it is, you might be able to find it by thumping the ground with a shovel handle or something similar. You'll be able to hear a difference if you hit it.
Whatever you do before you know the scope of the problem should be considered a bandaid.

With the low headroom in the crawl space, that kind of rules out working the area there. If you know enough about the foundation, you might be able to manage the water from the outside of the house.


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## nealtw (Jan 10, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Well, of course the dug out hole area with the bricks, you can stand up in and have about 7' or so from the bottom of the hole to the floor joists. The rest of the actual crawlspace dirt varies from probably 2.5 feet in some areas to as low as 1' or so towards to front area of the house under the kitchen.
> 
> Not sure how far the foundation walls go. Is the best way to tell to just dig a small hole down and see, beside the house?
> 
> ...


*Plan B*
Remvoe the water tank.
Install new plastic tub for the sump, like this. higher than the floor
http://www.wikihow.com/Install-a-Sump-Pump
Drill holes on the blocks to allow water to flow freely, cover your side of the block with dimple board from the top to about 2" from the floor cover all the floor with crused rock, leaving just enough room under the furance for a        2 1/2 " skim coat of concrete.
Add 2 1/2" skim coat of concrete.
If you change to electric hot water you can put it just about anywhere or with this done you could put it back where it is.
This would be a whole lot easier.
I never ment for the dimple to go behind the wall.


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## jmr106 (Jan 11, 2016)

nealtw said:


> *Plan B*
> Remvoe the water tank.
> Install new plastic tub for the sump, like this. higher than the floor
> http://www.wikihow.com/Install-a-Sump-Pump
> ...




So holes would be drilled into the blocks and the water would flow out and hit the dimple board and fall straight down. What is used to attach the dimple board to the inside of the wall? The cinderblocks are solid, but they just seem a little more "crumbly" in composition compared something like a solid cement wall, of course. From the previous photo, it looks like they used some kind of screw or nail with a plastic fitting on it to help seal out water from going through the hole and/or keeping the screw or nail from slipping through the dimple board.

A sump basin would need to be a larger/wider type in order to keep the pump from coming on too frequently and shortening pump life (since the current space is 80 to 90 gallons and can fill up every 3-4 minutes after a few days of rain with continual heavy rain). Any idea if they make basins in a larger square-like size that might fit the current sump pit somewhat?

Okay, so I'd leave a 2" gap between the bottom of the dimple board and the floor. The water would run down onto the floor among the crushed rocks until it reached the sump hole? How deep would the rocks need to be?

What is the 2 1/2" skim of concrete for around the furnace, or should that go on top of the rocks for the entire length of the floor of the hole?  The furnace/air system is elevated about a foot or so off from a 1" cement block on the floor.


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## nealtw (Jan 11, 2016)

Not sure of the sump size. The skim coat would cover everything. 3/4" grushed gravel, no sand. Pehaps dimple board over gravel so wet concrete dosn't plug up gravel.
If you find a box like that you would suround it with gravel and with the aprox 4" of grave under the concrete wouldn't loose any storage for water, you just want a pump that is deffinitly big enough.
For the dimple board the is a hard plastic strip for the top edge and you drill into the block, 3/16" and use tap con screws.
BTW, jack hammers come in all sizes, sludge hammer in small space, really tough.

Besides this I still think you need to have a good landscaper for suggestion on how to remove water from around the house to a lower level.


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## bud16415 (Jan 11, 2016)

Some houses are built over a crawl space without a basement just because the water table is too high or gets to high certain times of the year. IMHO conventional building methods of block and mortar and sump pumps and such are just fighting nature and nature always wins. 

We have 100&#8217;s of people around here that have dug out crawl spaces and installed equipment and most end up wishing they had built a shed addition to hold the stuff in the long run, or converted a spare room into a utility room.


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## nealtw (Jan 11, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Some houses are built over a crawl space without a basement just because the water table is too high or gets to high certain times of the year. IMHO conventional building methods of block and mortar and sump pumps and such are just fighting nature and nature always wins.
> 
> We have 100s of people around here that have dug out crawl spaces and installed equipment and most end up wishing they had built a shed addition to hold the stuff in the long run, or converted a spare room into a utility room.



We built 2 houses with a river running thru them. One they just started by adding 1 ft of 6" chrushed and built above that. The other one on acerage and no height restrictions but *it wouldn't look right* to raise it. So every day we had to pump the hole out and they installed 2 sumps one for the perimeter drain and one in the basement as a backup.


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## bud16415 (Jan 11, 2016)

nealtw said:


> We built 2 houses with a river running thru them. One they just started by adding 1 ft of 6" chrushed and built above that. The other one on acerage and no height restrictions but *it wouldn't look right* to raise it. So every day we had to pump the hole out and they installed 2 sumps one for the perimeter drain and one in the basement as a backup.



Oh I know they do it every day and in some areas around here the good lots were cherry picked many years ago and people want to live in an area so bad they will build in a swamp. 

When we were looking at short sale properties before we bought the place we are at now we looked at one really nice house that had been sitting 2 years. After a year the bank got tired of paying the electric bill so they turned off gas and electric. This nice looking house filled with water the line was half way up the basement wall and the realtor tells us it needs a furnace and water heater as they had a little water down there. But the sump pump has no problem keeping up. As we stood and talked for five minutes it cycled on a couple times. Upstairs the plaster was coming off and the whole place was black mold. A year before it was worth maybe 120,000 and like it was I offered them 20,000 and got laughed out. We bought the place we are in and another year later they had an auction so I went and the place sold for 8,000. 

This place of the OPs just sounds like the equipment never should have been below grade.


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## nealtw (Jan 11, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Oh I know they do it every day and in some areas around here the good lots were cherry picked many years ago and people want to live in an area so bad they will build in a swamp.
> 
> When we were looking at short sale properties before we bought the place we are at now we looked at one really nice house that had been sitting 2 years. After a year the bank got tired of paying the electric bill so they turned off gas and electric. This nice looking house filled with water the line was half way up the basement wall and the realtor tells us it needs a furnace and water heater as they had a little water down there. But the sump pump has no problem keeping up. As we stood and talked for five minutes it cycled on a couple times. Upstairs the plaster was coming off and the whole place was black mold. A year before it was worth maybe 120,000 and like it was I offered them 20,000 and got laughed out. We bought the place we are in and another year later they had an auction so I went and the place sold for 8,000.
> 
> This place of the OPs just sounds like the equipment never should have been below grade.



I think He would agree about the funace not being under the house.
If the furnace wasn't there or was a horizontal one the ground level down there could be brought up past the water level.
If you knew the path of the water if it is like a stream, you could re-route it around the house.
Even fixed this could be a hard sell.


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## bud16415 (Jan 11, 2016)

The big thing around here the last few years is an outdoor wood stove. They sit out in the back yard a 100 or more feet from the house. Some guys build a little building around them and some build a huge building that holds a couple years worth of wood, and some just let them sit outside. They make hot water and run it thru PEX to the house in a trench that is insulated. All the mess and danger is outside. 

If they can do that I would think blowing hot air a few feet to get into the heat ducts wouldn&#8217;t be so bad. I&#8217;m not sure but the addition could be like a pole construction of a garden shed or something sitting up close to the house. I think I would build a nice room 10x12 with a slab floor to hold the equipment. 

Not sure what would cost more fixing the water problem or moving it up.


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## nealtw (Jan 11, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> The big thing around here the last few years is an outdoor wood stove. They sit out in the back yard a 100 or more feet from the house. Some guys build a little building around them and some build a huge building that holds a couple years worth of wood, and some just let them sit outside. They make hot water and run it thru PEX to the house in a trench that is insulated. All the mess and danger is outside.
> 
> If they can do that I would think blowing hot air a few feet to get into the heat ducts wouldnt be so bad. Im not sure but the addition could be like a pole construction of a garden shed or something sitting up close to the house. I think I would build a nice room 10x12 with a slab floor to hold the equipment.
> 
> Not sure what would cost more fixing the water problem or moving it up.



Ok If we a looking at all things that might be done.
I see what looks like  an AC unit outside, why not a heat pump. The unit inside could be much smaller and horizontal, then the whole hole could be backfilled to original depth, but we are assuming there was no problem before it was dug out.

I still think as this water is being dumped on the surface now, how much drop is there from the house to the area of the trees.
It might be possible to dig a trench around the house not to close but deep enough to pick up a drain from the basement and still find daylight at the trees.


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## bud16415 (Jan 11, 2016)

I&#8217;m not sure where the OP lives? Around here a heat pump is nowhere to be found except the water to water type where you have two wells.  But that might be a good plan. Getting the surface water away from the house and to lower ground can&#8217;t hurt at all. It sounded like it was coming in below grade but finding out would be a good plan and if it didn&#8217;t solve the water problem it would be good to keep the yard dry anyway.


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## nealtw (Jan 11, 2016)

I would be looking a the trench arount the house even if that just went to a sump and pump and the one below the house would be a back up..
I think there is a temp that heat pumps do quit working so that would be a concern in some places..

A new mud room outside the side door could take the furnace and tank.. But then back filling the crawl space would still be a pain.


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## jmr106 (Jan 11, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Not sure of the sump size. The skim coat would cover everything. 3/4" grushed gravel, no sand. Pehaps dimple board over gravel so wet concrete dosn't plug up gravel.
> If you find a box like that you would suround it with gravel and with the aprox 4" of grave under the concrete wouldn't loose any storage for water, you just want a pump that is deffinitly big enough.
> For the dimple board the is a hard plastic strip for the top edge and you drill into the block, 3/16" and use tap con screws.
> BTW, jack hammers come in all sizes, sludge hammer in small space, really tough.
> ...




Ah, okay. So the cement would cover the 4" of gravel and the water would come out and run underneath the cement among the gravel. What would I do around the bottom 2" of the wall where the dimple board stops just before the floor? Cement up to that point and stop before the edge? 

I have a pump pretty much already picked out. iON BA75 Storm Pro 3/4HP. Uses only 7.7 running amps, but kicks out 76 gallons per minute and is submersible. Stainless steel pump and it can handle 1/2" solids (piece of dirt or grit that somehow got through into the sump, for instance). I would also have an SEC America Pump Sentry that uses marine batteries on a backup system to power the main and backup pumps if necessary, during a power failure. 

What are the chances of a septic tank contributing to the water problem in the basement if there is one outside near the house?


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## nealtw (Jan 11, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Ah, okay. So the cement would cover the 4" of gravel and the water would come out and run underneath the cement among the gravel. What would I do around the bottom 2" of the wall where the dimple board stops just before the floor? Cement up to that point and stop before the edge?
> 
> I have a pump pretty much already picked out. iON BA75 Storm Pro 3/4HP. Uses only 7.7 running amps, but kicks out 76 gallons per minute and is submersible. Stainless steel pump and it can handle 1/2" solids (piece of dirt or grit that somehow got through into the sump, for instance). I would also have an SEC America Pump Sentry that uses marine batteries on a backup system to power the main and backup pumps if necessary, during a power failure.
> 
> What are the chances of a septic tank contributing to the water problem in the basement if there is one outside near the house?



No, the idea is to let the warer come thru the wall and down to the bottom where it would get to the gravle the grave would cover the bottom of the floor and hide the bottom of the dimple board. Or the grave could be put in first and the dimple borad could be bent out to cover the grave and then add concrete. The idea is to let the water go where it wants to as long as it is behind the dimple and under the concrete. 
Sorry I have made the assumption that the house was on a city sewer.
Is there a septic tank, do you know where it is and where the feild is.
That adds a whole bunch of different problems.


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## slownsteady (Jan 11, 2016)

Do you have city water & sewer? I was assuming the septic tank - if you found one - was abandoned. I was thinking that might be the mystery "tin" as old septic tanks were often metal. An old tank probably is not contributing to the water problem, if sealed properly.
This is a tough thread to follow because the Orig post raises so many questions. Is the stream/creek there or not? Where is the water coming from? Where do we want it to go? Is the surface runoff returning back into the house? If we don't answer those question (and others?) then we can only patch the problem in the 'basement'.


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## nealtw (Jan 11, 2016)

There has been an abundance of info here for jmr106 to deal with.
Questions I still have and not sure if we covered them already.
Subdivisions around here in the suburb of that age had ditch on both side of the road, if that is still there or if it has been piped and covered over, water could be piped or pumped to there.
When creaks and streams are re-routed, if not visable it may be piped thru the area and it would have an easement. This would show up on the city plan as well as any storm system at the road.
Sometimes you have go into historical site plans to find out what was happening 70 years ago.
There are people at city hall that are aware of broblem areas and should be will to help with suggestion on best moves forward.
Moving water away from the house on the outside is always the best way and cheapest way to solve water problems.
The problem here is the hole in the basement is lower that the foundation so a typical perimeter drain won't work so any trench will have to be a feet away from the house so that the foundation is not undermined.


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## jmr106 (Jan 12, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Do you have city water & sewer? I was assuming the septic tank - if you found one - was abandoned. I was thinking that might be the mystery "tin" as old septic tanks were often metal. An old tank probably is not contributing to the water problem, if sealed properly.
> This is a tough thread to follow because the Orig post raises so many questions. Is the stream/creek there or not? Where is the water coming from? Where do we want it to go? Is the surface runoff returning back into the house? If we don't answer those question (and others?) then we can only patch the problem in the 'basement'.




The house has been on city water and sewer for decades. Probably 4 or 5 decades. My parents bought it in '79. If there is a septic tank out there, I'm not sure if previous owners filled it properly. It may be filling up with water, have cracks in the side of the walls of it, etc. The water flowing into the basement doesn't smell, however. A house up the street had a septic tank recently (you could smell it and obviously it was backing up because a neighbor next to them said they had way too many people living in that one house). 

I have been unable to dig for a septic tank yet in the yard (very cold weather) or dig to find the mysterious tin cover of whatever it is. 

The stream/creek is kind of an up in the air thing. It is visible 14 houses away in the back yard of the house on a perpedicular street. Using a map puts it in direct line with ours. I presume that it is flowing downhill towards house where it is visible, as our street has a bit of a hill on it that slowly progresses. I can't see it curving in this residential neighborhood. Satellite views show nothing due to the massive amount of trees in the area. It goes under the actual street somehow and straight into someone else's front yard on the opposite side of the street (they have a little bridge and everything there over it) and it apparently continues straight from there. I have no idea where it goes or where it comes from. It isn't on any map, however. The frustrating thing is that there is another creek about 100 feet away from the creek in question. It flows into a major river and I could trace that one everywhere on a map. The one that I believe may run through the yards isn't on anything that I can find, yet it is physically there.

I grabbed this map from Google Maps (street names blotted out) to show the location of our house vs the location of the creek in the back yard of the house on the perpendicular street. A maps measurement shows about 1,090 feet from the corner of their yard to the back of ours. It is an uncanny alignment with our yard and neighbor's yards presuming it runs straight.

I should note that I live in Decatur, Georgia. A smaller city about 15 minutes outside of Atlanta, Georgia.


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## jmr106 (Jan 12, 2016)

nealtw said:


> There has been an abundance of info here for jmr106 to deal with.
> Questions I still have and not sure if we covered them already.
> Subdivisions around here in the suburb of that age had ditch on both side of the road, if that is still there or if it has been piped and covered over, water could be piped or pumped to there.
> When creaks and streams are re-routed, if not visable it may be piped thru the area and it would have an easement. This would show up on the city plan as well as any storm system at the road.
> ...




Yeah, there is so much info and so much to deal with. A neighbor up the street has lived in the neighborhood since the 40's and has told us various things about the houses and such over the years. She apparently came down when they were working and doing various stuff to this house. The former owners were pretty shoddy in their work, did things halfway, etc. I have had to go through and fix a lot of stuff. This water problem has been the biggest headache of all, mainly because I'm not sure how to fix what is wrong; or exactly what is actually wrong yet. Given that this problem obviously started when they put the water heater in the basement and then years later was escalated when the heating/air system was put in the basement, digging the hole obviously started everything. The reason why they did it was because the Federal Housing Authority forced the previous owners to remove that water heater from the kitchen and put it into the basement before the FHA would approve the mortgage loan to my parents. 

I'm not sure if there are any old drains by the road and such. I guess I need to take a trip to the city hall and city clerk office and see if they have any old maps where I can find out what was done. If they covered over a stream or creek with an easement and it was causing problems with water flow in our yard, is that something that the city would have to pay for? Even if there is a creek or stream nearby, I'm not sure what to actually "do" about it.

It isn't a constant flow problem. The basement and hole are dry most of the time and even when it rains for a day or two, the pump doesn't always need to come on. It can rain all day sometimes, or even moderately for a couple of days and the pump won't come on. There may be little to no water flow in the basement. When it rains fairly heavy for 2-3 days, that's when the pump comes on and keeps coming on for 2-3 days after, getting more and more infrequent with time. When there is a "flash flood warning" and such, that's when it comes on a lot. It is also when that stream of water is visibly deep in the yard, in a particular place. I'm attaching an estimated area drawn in of where that water flow shows up in heavy rains. I'll see if I can find the actual photos that I took previously during an absolute downpour thunderstorm. It was like we literally had a creek running through the back yard and from yard to yard, right in line with that area. Probably 6" or more deep. It wasn't flowing up towards the house, but stayed in that area. Yet there isn't really a slope or ditch-like area there. It is pretty flat and just grass. That area is maybe 25 feet or so from the back of the house. It is also right in line with the only place to discharge - a safe distance from the trees and yet a distance away from the house to keep it from going back into the basement.


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## nealtw (Jan 12, 2016)

An easement is an area in your yard where the city says you can not build because the may need to work in that area or that may need it for a future road or what ever like a pipe.
Your not looking for blaming someone, you just want to dig in and find any info that may help, sometimes they will have old plans like where the septic tank and feild were.
Just a thought but if the feild was left in place and the water could track back up the old lines it would have a direct path to the house.
I still think the city people are the one to ask about suggestions and I am not sure I would be afraid to give the trees the extra water, not that I know anything about that.


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## jmr106 (Jan 12, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I think He would agree about the funace not being under the house.
> If the furnace wasn't there or was a horizontal one the ground level down there could be brought up past the water level.
> If you knew the path of the water if it is like a stream, you could re-route it around the house.
> Even fixed this could be a hard sell.



That is a plain a/c unit outside. That's about the smallest furnace possible for the system inside of the basement. It previously had a heat pump system that was similar in size, actually. The furnace was still the same size in the basement. When that was installed, it was elevated on blocks because the previous one flooded due to a power failure (have since found a solution for the power failure). Another room "could" be built on the back of the house. The problem is the same, though. Sure, the water heater could go elsewhere or be turned into a smaller electric one (not sure if the  breaker could handle that). The system...there's nowhere to put it. The vents are in the floor of every room, so the system in the basement couldn't go in the attic. That's too much weight up there, anyway. Also, even if another room was built...the original foundation of the house would need to be punched through in order to run the HVAC pipes through the bottom of the house. That's why they didn't want to do an external system to begin with. Plus, it would have cost probably 5 times as much. I wish I could just pull both of those out, fill that in and be done with it. It was a stupid idea for them to do that.


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## slownsteady (Jan 12, 2016)

Thanks for the additional info. It really is a puzzle, but I think there are some clues in here.



> The frustrating thing is that there is another creek about 100 feet away from the creek in question. It flows into a major river and I could trace that one everywhere on a map. The one that I believe may run through the yards isn't on anything that I can find, yet it is physically there.


Nature is the best judge in this case. Water cuts it's own path and always flows downhill. It is unlikely that there would be two natural streams so close to each other...unless your area slopes in two different directions. My thought is that there is some sort of storm-water management channel that you are seeing. You might even find a storm-water basin a few blocks further down.Two questions about the one that we've been talking about: Does it always have water in it? And does it look man-made?

The extra info about when your basement floods is also helpful. Based on that, i would have to agree with earlier posts about moving the unit to an out-building. the cost of drilling thru the foundation to run your ducts will be minimal compared with trying to defeat the saturated ground and/or the high water table that you obviously have in your area. If you go that route, then you don't necessarily have to do anything with your basement, as that whole basement area could fill and feed the pumps without any urgency.

you could, however, help the ground in your backyard to handle the water better by providing drainage. You could either do it by burying a perforated pipe with drainage rock around it, or you could make a shallow, rock-lined channel where the water flows (think japanese garden with ornate foot bridge). Unfortunately, i can't answer where that water discharges, cuz it sounds like it ends up in your neighbor's yard either way.

Just a bunch of random thoughts:2cents:


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## nealtw (Jan 12, 2016)

The idea is to come up with 2 or 3 plans that would solve the problem at the lowest cost and make the house more sellable. With that in mind it is good to kick around ideas, evan if they sound silly when first said out loud.

1. Something close to what I proposed in post 28, may need a little refining. Pros,  reasonably cheap and could be done by home owner. Cons, Pump still running more than what one would like and a full explaination would have to be made to buyer.
2. Trenching around the house to devert the water away from the house. Pros, stop water from getting under house, maybe. Cons, no garrentee a good dump stie can be found, will like still require number 1.  to be done, woork will likely be done by contractor.
3. Change the furnace to a horizontal furnace that would fit in the space of the origanal crawlspace look at changing hot water to instant hot water, backfill crawl space, raise pump to higher level to protect the furnace just incase, although not likely needed. Pros the hole in the crawl space is backfilled and water issue solved, work under house can be done by home owner.  Cons, cost of new water heater and furnace, closet space for water hearter on outside wall will have to be found unless one can go on the outside where you live?
4. Figure out what would be the most cost efective way to do the fix and with full discloser and discount to the buyer as buyer may want to make changes anyway and all the work done might just be a waste. Pros  Homework only no work has to get done Cons discount will be larger than one might think upfront, limited number of buyers will be interested.

Get the make and model of the furnace, I think some can be converted to hoizontal.


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## jmr106 (Jan 13, 2016)

So here's my follow-up questions that maybe someone could answer, after thinking over all of the above that we have talked about:

Is it physically and practically possible to have someone build a wood room of some sort outside of the back center of the house and have the water heater and furnace/blower moved out there into it? Or would it be better to just buy a pre-built shed from somewhere and make the necessary modifications (punching through the back wall of it to run ducts, pipes and wiring)? Would the water heater get too cold/hot or need extra insulation around it inside of the building? I'm not sure if either of those being in such a place outside of the house would violate city codes. The house next door to us has a crawlspace and they had this little wooden structure that was built onto the back of the house somehow. The water heater was apparently in that. 

Provided that a building could be built or purchased for such a thing, they would have to punch through the foundation (big rocks with mortar) of the house to make room for the air ducts. Would that cause a sagging problem or destroy the integrity of the house? We have those big 1 foot diameter ducts running everywhere in the basement. I don't know how they would even fit all of that into a big hole if one were to be made. 

Does anyone know if a furnace and blower system like that could function in a building outside? Currently, there is a 1" or so pvc pipe that runs into the condensation drain. That outputs heat into the basement in the winter and keeps all pipes under the house warm and also the system keeps itself warm in doing so. 

Then there's the basement itself. If the water heater and machines were gone completely, I have that big open hole. If it were filled in, would all of the bricks have to be removed? If they were left, would they continue saturating the dirt filled in, even if it was level with the rest of the basement dirt? Even the top of the bricks is about 1+ foot below actual ground level outside and the rest of the crawlspace inside. Would we still require a sump pump? Obviously, it would take an enormous amount of dirt to fill that space just to the top of the bricks themselves. About another foot to get to the actual crawlspace dirt level. Part of me is scared that water might be forced up through the new dirt somehow and flood the crawlspace.

As far as the code regulations, I'm not even sure who to ask that question to in my city to see if that would be permitted to put the water heater and furnace outside or run pipes through the house foundation. There are just so many things that each have their own issue to address. Getting both out of the hole seems to be the best and cheapest option, while also being more permanent. I think the open hole and pump would likely have to stay (at least, until another buyer fixed it). That would be way too much work to try to fill it in and avoid having a pump. However, the pump would also have that extra room for any water that it needed a few minutes to catch up to. That sure wouldn't help any moisture issues in and under the house, though.

A little extra background info on that bricked hole: My mother has told me the horror stories where my father had gone down to the basement many times when I was young and found that the pump had either been overtopped, stopped working or the power was lost for a while and caused it to flood. They had only a single 1/3HP pedestal pump down there before. He never even thought to add a second pump for some reason. From what I was told, the water came almost all the way up to the top of the bricks quite a few times. Mathematically, that's about 1,300 gallons or so all in one spot. So apparently when left unchecked, it isn't just a matter of water limiting itself and flooding a little bit. After a 3-day rain system, I have calculated that in a 24 hour period there is upwards of 6,000 total gallons pumped out. That's a scary amount of water flow, which is what makes me wonder about something else causing it.

Time will tell...today I'm going to see if I can call around to the city clerk and city hall and see who I need to talk to for maps of any changes to the area. I'm hoping they'll give me some of copies of them.


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## nealtw (Jan 13, 2016)

The building would have to be an addition to the house, I doubt it would be cost effective but that would have to be worked out. The best way to do that would be at the door in you photo. As there is a header over the door already and if the new hole was cut under the door for the pipes you would not be weakining the foundation. Cutting the hole would be a question for a concrete coring and cutting company if they will cut stone.
If you built a room about 6x6 you would have room for a halway into the house and a 6 ft closet for furnace and water tank. Whether the furnace would work from there efficiency is a question for the pros.
This would include removing the steps, footing ,foundation, building the room, finish inside and out, roof

I roughly figure you hole in the basment is 5 x 20 x 3, I make that about 11 yards or about one truck of gravel. That will be cheap ,you can get a price on that locally. You might be able to rent a small conveyer for loading it in. By hand a day or two for one man. You would still install the new sump and pump at the higher level to make sure it dosn't flood.

That being said, I will go back to if you refill that hole I would take a look at a horizontal furnace that would fit in at the new level.
Water was in the kitchen and failed inspection likely for 2 reasons I think, it was not in a room with enough clearence around it and it didn't have a fresh air vent for fire air.
A new high efficiency tank can be put in a different location as fresh air and exhaust are just 2 pvc pipe that can go straight out of the wall so it dosn't have to be located at the chimney or stack.

I will ask Frodo to come over and have a look , he should have some of these answers.


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## zannej (Jan 13, 2016)

Here's an odd question: I know around here sometimes there are tiny little wooden boxes outside the house that hold just the water heater and the homeowners have to go outside to look at the heater for maintenance. 










I'm guessing that probably isn't an option-- but would it be possible for jm to have just a small shed built adjacent to the house (maybe near the basement entry or close to the current location of the water heater) with a roof that slopes away from the house?
Like this but maybe taller?





Or something like this right up against the house:


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## KULTULZ (Jan 13, 2016)

If you plan to put the furnace and/or WH into an outside shed, you have to consider freezing temps and heat/insulate/vent to protect the appliances.


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## zannej (Jan 13, 2016)

KULTULZ said:


> If you plan to put the furnace and/or WH into an outside shed, you have to consider freezing temps and heat/insulate/vent to protect the appliances.



You also have to consider how to access it during very cold months. 
Edit: I forgot that you already probably have to go outside and then crawl through that little door to get to your stuff currently-- so maybe a shed above ground wouldn't be so bad.

I think water heaters tend to lose a lot of heat from the bottom, so you want something underneath that will prevent heat loss-- but you don't want the water heater to be what is heating the space inside of a shed/building.

I have something like this in the shed where my water well and pump are:




but there might be better heating solutions. Good insulation would help.


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## bud16415 (Jan 13, 2016)

Just a thought and I know it may have been covered before. seeing as how the house is to be sold is there any room in the house, (first floor parlor, extra bed room , porch etc) that was needed back in the day but now is a spare room. 

You can have gravel delivered in a concrete truck and they add a little water and it pours right out the shoot and thru a small opening into the basement. 

Neals idea of using a doorway sounds good and making a hall along one side and just moving the outside door out I might go 8X8.


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## slownsteady (Jan 13, 2016)

What if you built the containment shed right over the existing crawlspace door? No need to make a new hole in the foundation and possibly keep the access from within the shed.


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## nealtw (Jan 13, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> What if you built the containment shed right over the existing crawlspace door? No need to make a new hole in the foundation and possibly keep the access from within the shed.



Access hole will be to small once the two ducts are run.


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## bud16415 (Jan 13, 2016)

Too bad they didn&#8217;t opt for hot water heat way back. You could stuff all the PEX you need thru a 6&#8221; hole.


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## nealtw (Jan 13, 2016)

This would be my plan.
Install on demand hot water, at best location outside house A/ $2000
Remove furnace.
Install plastic sump in that area to pick up water about the known high water mark. From when the pump stopped working years ago.
Drill holes in block walls
Fill the cavity with drain rock, leaving room for skim coat of concrete. Cover all the dirt and gravel with poly vapour bearier and install concrete over the gravel area 2 1/2 ". A/1000
Install a new horizontal furnace, if that one can not be adapted, plumb the consensing to the sump. A/ $2000-$5000

With all this water, we have not talked about whats happening about mold, Should have venting thru the walls or dehumiditifier.


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## nealtw (Jan 13, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Too bad they didnt opt for hot water heat way back. You could stuff all the PEX you need thru a 6 hole.



They have AC, they had just air handler before they had furnace, to bad the HVAC guy didn't talk about horizontal at both of those installations


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## jmr106 (Jan 14, 2016)

zannej said:


> The house next door to us had something like the first and second photo for years, apparently with the water heater in it. They have a dirt crawlspace. However, they eventually added on some kind of extra little room on the house. Not sure why they decided to move it. I'd imagine that building an extension room onto the house would cost half or more of the purchase price of a new car.


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## jmr106 (Jan 14, 2016)

nealtw said:


> The building would have to be an addition to the house, I doubt it would be cost effective but that would have to be worked out.



Is it completely against code for such a thing to be in a shed-like building or a simple wooden extension on the back of the house?  Or is it just not really feasible due to the insulation and such needed? The area where the a/c unit is...about a foot to the right of that is an outside faucet. However, between the faucet and the bedroom window is probably 8-10 feet of space with nothing there. 




nealtw said:


> I roughly figure you hole in the basment is 5 x 20 x 3, I make that about 11 yards or about one truck of gravel.



The back end seems to be a little shorter (or probably the floor has built itself up a bit due to the dirt that was washed from the wall on that side) and maybe 3'. The front half towards the sump is about 3.5'. I haven't measured it completely, but I'd estimate it to be about 15' long and somewhere between 3.5' and 4' wide. 




nealtw said:


> Water was in the kitchen and failed inspection likely for 2 reasons I think, it was not in a room with enough clearence around it and it didn't have a fresh air vent for fire air.



It could have been the clearance (it was in a corner), but the vent pipe apparently ran through the ceiling of the kitchen. We can still barely make out what was once a hole. It is a couple of feet away from the walls on each side, though. 

The gas water heater could be changed to something like electric on-the-fly. I'll bet that pulls a ton of amps, though. Not really anywhere to relocate it to other than outside.

There is less space down there (above the hole) than appears in the crawlspace area. Putting a horizontal furnace there in the crawlspace area (unless the hole was built up partially and it was put in there after being partially filled in) would likely violate our codes here. They'd say the heat source was way too close to the wood floor above, and it would be given the size. If the current furnace could be flipped sideways (if possible with that model), it would be at or touching the the wood floor of the rooms above. Then that's not even factoring in the blower housing and such.


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## jmr106 (Jan 14, 2016)

zannej said:


> You also have to consider how to access it during very cold months.
> Edit: I forgot that you already probably have to go outside and then crawl through that little door to get to your stuff currently-- so maybe a shed above ground wouldn't be so bad.
> 
> I think water heaters tend to lose a lot of heat from the bottom, so you  want something underneath that will prevent heat loss-- but you don't  want the water heater to be what is heating the space inside of a  shed/building.



Well, it could be elevated above the ground outside, of course. Probably the whole building would need to be elevated on something just to keep puddles from intruding when the ground saturates in our heavy 3-4 day rains. Couldn't the water heater be wrapped in some sort of blanket insulation made to fit it?

In regards to the building itself...if there was an outside shed-type building, it would heat itself. That little pvc vent pipe sticking out of the furnace/blower assembly that keeps the condensation pump from vacuum-locking has an open top on it. It is only a 1" or so pipe, but it keeps the entire crawlspace reasonably warm compared to below-freezing air outside. This same method would likely keep any insulated shed-type building close to room temperature just by the furnace going off and on as usual. In the same way, the water heater and furnace would both stay warm inside of the building by this method. The furnace is pretty much its own heater currently. If not for that, the crawlspace would probably be nearly the outside temperatures. The same for the summer...air blows out and keeps the crawlspace reasonably cool when it is a hundred degrees outside.


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## jmr106 (Jan 14, 2016)

I have still been researching ways to figure out what is under the surrounding land and what may have been done with the house and land in older times.

Online, apparently there is a HouseFax (just like CarFax) that gives a Property History Report. However, that probably won't be as good as city records.

The Tax Assessor's office apparently only deals with buying/selling prices and such.

Apparently my county has a History Center. I'm going to try to contact them and see if they have any info pertaining to the property. 

The county courthouse seems like it would have the most info. Deed books and Plat Maps, among other things. I'm going to dig through and see what kind of drains might have existed, any changes to the land, septic systems, etc. Apparently they might have some kind of developer maps from early on when the houses were built, as well. Those would be really helpful.

I'm beginning to wonder if that isn't just an old storm drain that runs under the yards and is openly visible in the yards down the street. That may explain why the middle of the yard floods. But, who knows...hopefully I'll dig something up on those plans and be able to find something in the yard. It is in the upper 20's currently and our high temps have made it pretty chilly for digging.


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## zannej (Jan 14, 2016)

JMR- it is not uncommon for water heaters to be elevated. Mine is inside the house and is elevated at least 3 feet off the floor. This would allow for more room for water to flow when you need to drain the tank for maintenance. You hook up a hose and the hose needs to drain under the structure.

There are drip pans you put under the water heater, although most of them would have the heater sit directly in the water except the Bulldog ones.






Otherwise, I've been told you can set bricks underneath it in the pan to raise it up and allow water to flow around.

Anything you would wrap it in would have to be fire/heat resistant. 

As for gas vs electric, IIRC the power company sometimes gives you a credit if you switch to electric. I know a guy who got the power company to essentially pay for his new water heater to get him to switch to electric. You can try to get an energy star rated one. All of my appliances are electric and my bill can be pretty high-- but my exterior walls are not insulated, the house was expanded over the years, and I have other out-buildings that are being powered-- including a water well shed with a jet pump.

I think Kultulz knows more about what sort of surfaces you need to have underneath the water heater.

Good luck with your search on the causes of the flooding in your yard. I hope it all goes well for you.


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## nealtw (Jan 14, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Is it completely against code for such a thing to be in a shed-like building or a simple wooden extension on the back of the house?  Or is it just not really feasible due to the insulation and such needed? The area where the a/c unit is...about a foot to the right of that is an outside faucet. However, between the faucet and the bedroom window is probably 8-10 feet of space with nothing there.



Not sure about codes, you would have to check that with permit dept. for the structure and HVAC. I was also thinking about how it will look for a buyer.





jmr106 said:


> The back end seems to be a little shorter (or probably the floor has built itself up a bit due to the dirt that was washed from the wall on that side) and maybe 3'. The front half towards the sump is about 3.5'. I haven't measured it completely, but I'd estimate it to be about 15' long and somewhere between 3.5' and 4' wide.


So if you filled it 30" the math would be  4x15x2.5=150/27=5.5 yards




jmr106 said:


> It could have been the clearance (it was in a corner), but the vent pipe apparently ran through the ceiling of the kitchen. We can still barely make out what was once a hole. It is a couple of feet away from the walls on each side, though.
> 
> The gas water heater could be changed to something like electric on-the-fly. I'll bet that pulls a ton of amps, though. Not really anywhere to relocate it to other than outside.
> 
> There is less space down there (above the hole) than appears in the crawlspace area. Putting a horizontal furnace there in the crawlspace area (unless the hole was built up partially and it was put in there after being partially filled in) would likely violate our codes here. They'd say the heat source was way too close to the wood floor above, and it would be given the size. If the current furnace could be flipped sideways (if possible with that model), it would be at or touching the the wood floor of the rooms above. Then that's not even factoring in the blower housing and such.


I have had 2 houses with horizontal furnaces, they were pretty close to the floor and all the ducts were in line cold on one end heat out the other end.
Neither of those houses had more than a 36" crawlspace
Home Depot does have a manual for such a furnace but it is a pdf file and for some reason I can't open them.


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## KULTULZ (Jan 14, 2016)

zannej said:


> I think water heaters tend to lose a lot of heat from the bottom, so you want something underneath that will prevent heat loss-- but you don't want the water heater to be what is heating the space inside of a shed/building.
> 
> I have something like this in the shed where my water well and pump are:
> 
> ...


 
Give this a view- http://www.eheat.com/

One would use a lot less electricity and you wouldn't have to baby-sit it.

Install a GFCI receptacle and you are ready to go. Of course the shed would have to be well insulated (and vented if furnace and WH are NG/propane natural draft).


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## frodo (Jan 14, 2016)

you have to stop the water.

my suggestion, is not cheap.

dig around the house ,install drains,  then water proof the outside wall to stop water from coming in.

on the inside,  pour the floor with concrete,  excavate the excess dirt out of basement. 

then spray gunite over the dirt


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## zannej (Jan 15, 2016)

KULTULZ said:


> Give this a view- http://www.eheat.com/
> 
> One would use a lot less electricity and you wouldn't have to baby-sit it.
> 
> Install a GFCI receptacle and you are ready to go. Of course the shed would have to be well insulated (and vented if furnace and WH are NG/propane natural draft).


Thanks! I personally don't like that style of heater, but for some reason my mother likes it. I have some ceramic space heaters in the house that have shielding so nothing is hot to the touch and people won't get burned by touching them. They are energystar efficient.
I'll have to check and see if the outlets in that shed are GFCI...


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## KULTULZ (Jan 15, 2016)

zannej said:


> I'll have to check and see if the outlets in that shed are GFCI...


 
Yeah, you need it an outside building like that. Don't forget if you have more than one receptacle you can daisy-chain the others off the GFCI receptacle (first in line from the breaker) or just use a GFCI breaker on the whole circuit ($$$).


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## jmr106 (Jan 17, 2016)

Out of curiosity, I came across a product made by a company in a city not too far away from where I live. It is called J-DRain and is used in conjunction with something called  J-DRain SWD. Do you think that would be something I should look into? Apparently the SWD still needs to go below the wall, but seems to have its own pipe system. I'm a bit confused because it states that it "is a unique drainage system consisting of vertical chimneys and a base  collection system that is both easy to install and can be installed at a fraction  of the cost of  pipe and gravel french  drains. J-DRain 200 wall composite used along with J-DRain SWD base collection system provides the ultimate drainage and water protection for basement construction. This system replaces gravel back fill and pipe and gravel french  drains." It looks like they use some kind of drain downspouts that come out of the middle of the wall. 

Is there a way to do this without the french drain or am I reading that wrong? It looks like they still have something under the base of the wall diverting the water.

http://www.buildsite.com/pdf/jdrenterprises/J-Drain-J-DRain-for-Residential-Applications-317064.pdf

After looking at the required amount of work and the general price range for french drains outside of the house (which may not even fix the problem), I have decided that the problem should best be addressed internally. 

Likewise, the work for removing the whole heating/air system and water heater and relocating outside would be ridiculous. Having a building or shed there with those in it would look quite ridiculous, so I'm scrapping that idea completely. 

The attached photo is I presume the type of french drain that was previously mentioned with the crushed rock along the base of the wall, perforated pipe under the crushed rock, etc. Apparently this same issue happens to homeowners who have similar (but much larger) floor to ceiling walls even in their regular stand-up basements and they end up with a french drain around the perimeter or on one or more sides of the basement.

The water heater could theoretically be changed to a tankless and perhaps put somewhere above the hole in the dirt area. Maybe on a cement slab or something.

The system...I might just have to work around it as-is. I do know for a fact that when they had the system put in, the HVAC people were apparently told to elevate it as much as possible. That was as high as they could go with it, from what I understand. I figure that the first thing to do after removal of the water heater would be to put on a mask (slight worries about hantavirus in doing such a thing in an enclosed dirt area, but not really a mouse problem around here) and get the hose and sprayer. Start at the far end of the hole where the water heater was and spray the whole floor of the hole, all the way down to the pumps. Spray away all of the dirt that has washed down into the hole and find the cement underneath. That way I'll know what I'm working with and the area would be cleaner. 

I figure that the best way to determine how deep that cement is would be to try to drill through it until I see dirt on the drill bit. That would need to be a longer bit.

I'm slightly confused about the perforated pipe. So basically the french drain is a pipe with holes in it that sits in the center of the crushed gravel and absorbs the water and redirects it to the sump. Simple concept, but I'm wondering how well that water actually stays in and flows through such a pipe. It seems like it would be flowing out constantly into the rocks and almost useless to have the pipe there. I take it that I'd have to use one of those basins with the premade holes all over it and crushed gravel around the basin in order to get flow to the pumps? It doesn't seem like I'd be able to use any of the traditional pipe-to-basin methods since the water is flowing so loosely in the french drain.


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## nealtw (Jan 17, 2016)

That is the same type of system I posted in #5 and with the pipe you would use a sump that had hole just for the pipe to go into it.
My post #28 would give the same result with a lot less effort.

They use a pipe to drain the block but in your case all the blocks have water in them so punchig holes in them allows the water to flow and the dimple board contains it and routes down into the grave.


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## slownsteady (Jan 18, 2016)

The SWD may be ok, but it probably doesn't carry the volume of a 4" pipe, so be careful there. The gravel is there to provide protection for the pipe, and yes, some water may travel outside the pipe. But since you would be using perforated pipe, the water can transfer into the pipe at any point. Additionally, the pipe and the gravel NEEDS to be surrounded by geotextile to prevent fine particles from clogging up the works. The J-Drain system tries to incorporate all that into their product. I would research a lot before committing, because I bet there is more to it than that brochure shows.

http://j-drain.com/sub-installation.php


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## jmr106 (Jan 18, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> The SWD may be ok, but it probably doesn't carry the volume of a 4" pipe, so be careful there. The gravel is there to provide protection for the pipe, and yes, some water may travel outside the pipe. But since you would be using perforated pipe, the water can transfer into the pipe at any point. Additionally, the pipe and the gravel NEEDS to be surrounded by geotextile to prevent fine particles from clogging up the works. The J-Drain system tries to incorporate all that into their product. I would research a lot before committing, because I bet there is more to it than that brochure shows.



I'd just stick with the 4" pipe in that case, then. I guess my question was basically...if the perforated pipe runs the length of the french drain under the gravel, at what point does it turn into a regular closed pipe in order to channel all of the water into the sump basin that would be closed? Even if it did turn into a closed pipe, my question is mainly...what happens to that "loose" water that didn't make it into the perforated part and is among the rocks? Should I only be considering installing a sump basin with holes in the sides of it and surrounded with the fabric with the crushed gravel on the outside of it?

Since that area would have collapsed without a cement base...I'm wondering just how deep that cement will be under the dirt that has washed down over the years. 

Thinking of just pulling that water heater out, changing it to electric (going to have to figure out if the breaker can handle that and which line to put it on - not too sure how many amps those tankless ones use) and getting them to cap the gas line. That would eliminate the problem around the water tank and any flooding issues with it. The heating/air machine is elevated, but particularly on that air intake side, it is extremely tight. I'm currently trying to figure out how the heck I'm going to get any type of jackhammer or anything under that metal box with the intake hose attached to it on the right side. 

If I did jackhammer out the cement (about my only option, anyway), would I need to cut a line with a saw first in order to prevent overshooting the max width of the french drain? I wouldn't imagine that cement breaks up all that evenly. Never really done it, actually. 

I suppose I have a slightly irrational fear of punching through the floor cement and finding a water source or something. :hide:  Mainly because that is going even further under the ground and it is hard to tell whether there is a watertight barrier between the cement floor itself and the base of the bricks. But I guess I'd know that anyway, since a water source would have punched its way through the dirt a few inches and be coming out at all times. Since it isn't, I suppose I should be safe in doing so. That's probably not even rational, because the former owners would likely have hit such a source in digging the hole 37 years ago. I was reading about this guy who discovered two vent holes in his back yard in the ground, with some water coming out of them. Being curious, he dug around them and water started pouring out of them into his back yard. Apparently some kind of natural springs with no "off" button. That probably didn't help my concern for the depth of that being under the ground. haha


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## slownsteady (Jan 18, 2016)

I'm starting to think that unless you are ready to redirect all that water before it reaches the basement, then you're just wasting your time. From your original pics, it looks like you would need a helluva system to trap and redirect all that water. And if the system you install can't keep up, you will essentially be in the same situation, with water flowing over the floor and into the sump. Since you have some idea of the GPM that your sump can handle, maybe you (or someone here) can make a calculation on how big a pipe you need to capture that water. Your basement, right now, is doing what a pipe would do; that is moving water to the sump pump. The problem is that your equipment happens to be in the way. Whatever you choose to do, base it on resale value of the house. If it improves the value; do it.


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## jmr106 (Jan 18, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Since you have some idea of the GPM that your sump can handle, maybe you (or someone here) can make a calculation on how big a pipe you need to capture that water. Your basement, right now, is doing what a pipe would do; that is moving water to the sump pump. The problem is that your equipment happens to be in the way. Whatever you choose to do, base it on resale value of the house. If it improves the value; do it.



Current outside french drain estimates of going around the house would probably run $20,000+, under the fence (separates front and back yard), etc. Then there are some drain pipes in the way...I know for a fact that a sewer drain pipe is not too far under the ground just outside of the back of the house (the pvc pipe visible coming out of the basement under the window). I think it is just the washing machine and kitchen sink combined into that pipe. It apparently goes out and curves around somewhere over towards the other corner of the house where it joins the sewer line. Lots of complications would likely be encountered with that.

I actually have a video (only about a minute long) of the worst flow and was going to put it up from recently when we had a big rain system and it just would not stop raining. Was trying to find a site to host it. Water stays at the top of the sump hole and doesn't creep out, but doesn't go down for a while, either. It stays fixed at the top of the hole. Both pumps are able to keep up. The baby 1/3HP pump (somewhere around 2400GPH or about 40GPM) can keep up about 95% of the time if it is just a normal weather system or even if it is raining moderately for 2-3 days. If 3-4 days of constantly heavy rain, both might come on during certain times. When it is pouring rain outside, the ground is already saturated and water flow is already coming in steadily from the bricks - all at once. That's only when the 1/2HP (3800GPH/63GPM) kicks in. It is a bit of a rare event to need both.

Eventually I'll be upgrading that 1 1/2" PVC to 2" and throwing an iON Storm Pro 3/4HP submersible down there to be the main pump. That can hold its own at 74GPM. The 1/2HP will stay as a backup and I don't think there will ever be a 137GPM flow for both to be needed.

My main thing isn't really keeping the water out as far as getting it to not flood. It is just how it would look to a potential buyer and it is a threat to the equipment. That, and it is moisture under the basement in mass quantities, but only when it rains for days at a time. There's no visible mold in the basement or under the house structure that I have seen, for instance. Every once in a while a mobile object in the house (some bag in a closet, weight bench on an exercise machine, etc.) might get a little white powder mildew due to the moist and cooler air in general. I'm thinking that may mostly be the cooler air that flows under the curtains due to the house having the older, single-pane windows. However, there's nothing anywhere major like on the walls and such. 

A contractor/buyer who flips houses, for instance, would want to give a much lower price anyway - even if they could fix the issue and would have lots of help and cheap labor with the know-how. That just seems to be the name of the game. So I'm not sure how it will affect the value, but having an appraisal and getting a real estate person to check it wouldn't hurt at some point.


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## zannej (Jan 18, 2016)

Hmm.. If you were to dig the french drain yourself and lay the pipe, I wonder if you could do it. Maybe you could rent a machine for the day to dig (after contacting utility companies to have them mark underground lines-- gas, phone, cable) to make sure you won't hit anything. If you're not comfortable with that maybe you could dig it yourself. If it works anything like a septic tank field line, it would have to slope gradually and be no longer than 100ft per run. You would want to use gravel that is dust-free because the dusty kind will clog pores.

I think you are looking at getting something like  "weeping tile" system or something. Basements don't exist in my area since we are below sea level and the water table is high so I don't know much about basements and water removal-- well, no more than I've seen on TV (Holmes on Homes and Holmes Inspection) where they showed weeping tiles and sump pumps. I've heard that one of the biggest expenses is the labor and equipment costs of digging. If you can do any of the digging yourself, it could save some $.

On other thing you might want to consider, if you have space, is getting a large rain barrel to catch the downpour from the gutters. I've seen rain barrels with a spout where you could hook up a hose. You could run a hose to a ditch or something to drain it if it started to get too full. And you could also use it to conserve water for when things are dry (if it ever gets dry there). You could water the lawn and plant sand stuff with it. You might also want to look in to getting plants that don't have aggressive roots but that soak up a lot of water. It can take out a little bit of the ground water (but not much). If you can decrease the amount of water going in, maybe it will help at least a little.


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## nealtw (Jan 18, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> I'd just stick with the 4" pipe in that case, then. I guess my question was basically...if the perforated pipe runs the length of the french drain under the gravel, at what point does it turn into a regular closed pipe in order to channel all of the water into the sump basin that would be closed? Even if it did turn into a closed pipe, my question is mainly...what happens to that "loose" water that didn't make it into the perforated part and is among the rocks? Should I only be considering installing a sump basin with holes in the sides of it and surrounded with the fabric with the crushed gravel on the outside of it?
> 
> Since that area would have collapsed without a cement base...I'm wondering just how deep that cement will be under the dirt that has washed down over the years.
> 
> ...



If you fix the water problem as is , there would be no reason to change the tank or type if tank. BTW on demand hot water is usually gas and vented directly out so they can go anywhere, inside or outside an outside wall.

You do have enough room to add gravel and new sump without digging into the floor, you can do it with pipe or just gravel.


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## slownsteady (Jan 18, 2016)

Why not put your biggest pump in the first position? it has the best chance of keeping up and the other pumps can be support for it.


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## slownsteady (Jan 18, 2016)

When I waterproofed one side of my foundation, (block wall), I hired a man and machine on a daily rate. He dug out the trench and went away. I had the trench open for a few weeks so the block could thoroughly dry out. Then I put a waterproof coating on the wall, put in a sheet drain and laid the drain pipe myself. Called the guy back in to deliver and drop the gravel in the hole and fill it...another single day rate plus material. Total cost under $3k


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## jmr106 (Jan 18, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Why not put your biggest pump in the first position? it has the best chance of keeping up and the other pumps can be support for it.


 
That was the intention at one point, but a 1/2 HP pedestal (that's a cast iron one due to the nature of the pit) makes a ton of vibration. The boards that both attach to (about the only way to make them stay upright) are attached to floor joists above. Going to change the smaller one out at some point for a submersible. Usually big ones come on first. In this case, the smaller is older and the one I would rather get the rest of use out of before changing it. It gets the water out and keeps up unless it is a tropical storm or flash flooding event. So, I keep that as the main one for now. If water gets to near the top of the sump, the big one kicks on and keeps it in check. Even in a flash flood warning with inches of water on the ground outside in all yards, both pumps were not overtaken and it never left the top of the sump.


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## zannej (Jan 18, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> That was the intention at one point, but a 1/2 HP pedestal (that's a cast iron one due to the nature of the pit) makes a ton of vibration.



Amazon sells anti-vibration mats for water pumps. This is probably too small to be used on its own, but you can buy enough to fit under it.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002IA0WPI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I don't know exactly what your pump hooks to, but if it hooks to some sort of PVC or ABS then you can use a steel braided flex hose specific for water pumps like this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0068SZLB6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 (the size you need may vary, but this is to give you an idea).


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## jmr106 (Jan 19, 2016)

zannej said:


> Amazon sells anti-vibration mats for water pumps. This is probably too small to be used on its own, but you can buy enough to fit under it.
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002IA0WPI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> I don't know exactly what your pump hooks to, but if it hooks to some sort of PVC or ABS then you can use a steel braided flex hose specific for water pumps like this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0068SZLB6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 (the size you need may vary, but this is to give you an idea).




It really isn't the bottom of the pump that vibrates, it is where it attaches to the board. They are attached to the board with something equivalent to heavy gauge metal pipe hanger, because that's about the only thing that can hold onto the 1/2 HP, even though it weights over 30 pounds by itself. The small one doesn't vibrate as much, of course. The big one will lightly move around at the base (sitting on large cement patio brick). Both are attached to 1 1/2 pvc.


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## slownsteady (Jan 19, 2016)

There must be a better way to support this than by attaching it to the floor joists??!! Any pump will send a vibration up the boards.


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## jmr106 (Jan 19, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> There must be a better way to support this than by attaching it to the floor joists??!! Any pump will send a vibration up the boards.


 
A submersible wouldn't need the joist, which is why I will be changing it in the future. Due to nothing around it to support it and no way of really rigging anything, I don't see any other way. I couldn't just support it across the top of the bricks with boards, for instance. A sump basin would help a lot, of course. I wanted to figure out the best option before putting that in.


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## jmr106 (Jan 22, 2016)

I'm holding off on doing any work until I can piece together all of the info that I can about the history of the house and land.

Here are my current thoughts:

I'm thinking of going with the idea of punching holes in the wall, installing dimple board around the inside of the wall and making the whole floor into a french drain underneath. The crushed gravel, then perforated pipes, then more crushed gravel on top. Should I leave a 12" or so space around the edge (meaning put no cement over that part) as if it were a drain at the base of the wall? 

I do have a question about the 2.5" or so of cement on top of the upper layer of crushed gravel. How stable will it be with all of that on top of the crushed gravel? Will the perforated pipes eventually get crushed somehow or will the cement eventually break up due to the loose rock surface underneath. This is essentially the same principle as the aforementioned ideas of drilling through the cement floor and having a french drain extending about a foot around the edges, except for it gives a lot more buffer room like we talked about before.

The heating/air machine is elevated, but they elevated it on some kind of foam(?)-like blocks. I have no idea what those are made of.  I'm pondering that if I measure the exact height of the foam blocks and try to find some type of regular cement blocks to put underneath, I could slowly interchange those (hopefully) one at a time and slide the other permanent cement blocks underneath. It looks like they just taped together some kind of styrofoam-like blocks, and I know that those won't stay good forever in a wet environment like that.

I also have a question about how a french drain in general works. I had heard of it before, but never really knew much about it. All info that I have researched online seemed useless in actually explaining how it works. I know that obviously the water flows into the crushed gravel and finds its way into the perforated pipe. The pipe is technically open due to the holes everywhere, so I presume that this just provides a more open and less-resistance place for the water to go?

I have seen photos of french drains going into sump basins, but I don't understand how a closed sump basin would allow the water in the loose gravel to go into it. It would just built up outside of the basin among the rocks, wouldn't it? Of course, I could put in one with holes in it that would accept that water, too.

 How many pipes would I use and how would I lay them out under the crushed gravel in a full-floor situation like this? Just extend them the length of the floor to the sump? I would probably need a way to chain them together so that they all shared flow and could take it to the sump.


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

A few points.
You could have a furnace guy hang the furnace from the floor joists while you do the work.so you can remove the blocks without moving the furnace and then slide in something smaller later like bricks and remove the hangers.
Water runs thru 3/4 crushed gravel like the gravel wasn't there so your plan works with or without the pipe. There are sump boxes made for pipes and boxes made for without pipes.
You will only have pump the water from just below the floor so a pipe would be the better system. the higher you have the pipe the less water you have to pump.
In the picture the green pipe around the perimeter is perforated and it runs right into the box.
See also that they show water below the pipe that they don't worry about, that is because you are not just pumping the water in your basement but water is coming in from all around the house.
And the deeper you go, the more water you have to pump.
Notice that they bend the dimple board and cover the pipe so the concrete does not get into the perforated pipe


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## slownsteady (Jan 22, 2016)

Those plastic / foam blocks may be more water resistant than concrete blocks. May be polyisocyanurate. If they are supporting the weight well, and show no signs of deteriorating, keep them.


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## jmr106 (Jan 22, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Those plastic / foam blocks may be more water resistant than concrete blocks. May be polyisocyanurate. If they are supporting the weight well, and show no signs of deteriorating, keep them.


 
Not to second-guess your comment, but I did get curious about them and tried to figure out what they were. The only gray blocks that I could find that look like that are polystyrene. I was reading that it has a degradation of x years and I think that system is several years old.


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## KULTULZ (Jan 22, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Not to second-guess your comment, but I did get curious about them and tried to figure out what they were. The only gray blocks that I could find that look like that are polystyrene. I was reading that it has a degradation of x years and I think that system is several years old.


 
*Air Handler Blocks*

Lightweight styrofoam block (concrete gray) provides A/C air handler support in attic installations.

Source- http://www.diversitech.com/Product-Sub-Category?id=a04C000000JpCtCIAV


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## slownsteady (Jan 22, 2016)

ya, I was guessing on the material. But concrete blocks may not be best. Go for something plastic if you are going to replace them.


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## jmr106 (Jan 23, 2016)

Well, I'm back with some interesting information. Haven't been to the courthouse yet (looking like yet again sometime next week) and it is in the 20's outside with a bit of ice/snow. Still not a good time for digging.

I looked around online and found some old topo maps from the early 1900's. One in particular that seemed helpful was 1927-1930. The maps are in a local college map database. A blogger on the site used some type of software and GPS features to overlay the topo map with the street names and such that weren't originally on the topo map. I opened a second window of the modern Google Maps and compared both maps side by side, then took a screenshot of both together for reference. I measured the same distance in the map views and had both maps looking identical in size in order to make an accurate measurement. Plus, the old map had one of those 1 inch = xxx feet deals that helped out.

Near our main intersecting street up the hill, a random branch of water "begins" somehow. You can see it at the bottom of the pic near the "H". Nothing was cut off from view. It literally begins/ends at that point and nothing else is visible on the other side of the main road. It flows down and appears to flow somewhere right underneath our property, perhaps both the front and back yard in a perpendicular curving fashion. Then it appears to continue on down the street, winding back and forth. The house at the end of the street on the corner...we stopped and confirmed that there is an open ditch of sorts. Probably 2 or 3 feet deep and a couple of feet wide, at least. The visible part is straight, but according to the map, it must curve around up under the road and go to the house that I mentioned before that had the little bridge over a ditch in their front yard. From that, the map shows it flowing into the creek that runs right along their yard, just to the right of the bridge. Note that their yard is, of course, elevated above the creek. So that makes it impossible for this to be a branch-off of the creek, particularly since our street has a considerable slope and water doesn't run uphill. 

I put my best estimates on the map in red text and symbols based on my measurements with the current and old maps. 

Oddly enough, it doesn't flow like I expected. If it does in fact run through our front and back yard, it goes perpendicular under or near our house, whereas I expected it to run side to side through all of the back yards. It obviously doesn't do that, so that must be some other totally different land issue with the neighborhood due to the slight slant of the hill going down the street. I can't stay for sure that it is directly under the house, but even if it is a little off, the way it curves around the area near our house would still suggest that it is at least likely running through our back yard. Per the map, it is definitely flowing perpendicular to the "stream pattern" of water that I see running through the middle of our yard during really heavy downpours.

Any ideas/opinions?










Had a nasty part of winter storm Jonas, a bit of snow and ice, and temps in the 20's. It started raining around the late afternoon on Thursday, rained through the night into Friday and then turned into sleet and snow Friday night/Saturday morning. So this time we had maybe a day or a little over a day of actual moderate rain. The smaller pump came on and has come on since. This morning, it was coming on about every 30 minutes. Now it is down to about every hour or so. I went down to the crawlspace and only see a very tiny trickle from the far side of the wall, so that's apparently all that is causing it. However, it usually doesn't make the pump come on until it rains for at least two days or more. So that's a bit odd. Yet with all of that discharging, no ice outside on the ground and no issues with the pipe freezing. Even in the 20's outside with heavy winds, the furnace vent pipe keeps it in the 50's in the crawlspace.

Another site that I found that shows flood maps and flood plains shows our property as a "moderate risk" for some reason. 

As figured, they started all of this by digging and putting that water heater down there. If it were level and nothing but a crawlspace, I doubt we'd have any issues. Very odd that it comes on only when it rains, however, especially with that underneath. 

Here's one more interesting thing in the neighborhood: two houses up on the opposite side of the street, that house has always had a driveway that floods badly when it rains. Between their driveway and the yard next to them, there is a little cement culvert of sorts. It is ground-level with grass growing in it, so it isn't a ditch. It is about two feet wide and has a cement or concrete wall on each side that is about a foot tall. I guess it could have been a culvert that might have filled with dirt over the years or something. Anyway, if it rains for two-three days moderately or even if we have had no rain and get a single terrible thunderstorm, I have seen that little culvert and their driveway combined put out enough muddy water to cover half of the street in half of a foot of water. I have no idea what that is, and their house wouldn't be anywhere near the water source I mentioned above on the map. While none of that water flows into our yard, it rushes down the opposite side of the street and into the sewer. Definitely thousands of gallons per minute. I thought that maybe that might give some type of indication of the neighborhood. Maybe some type of drain? Very odd that it leads to their backyard between the houses, though. Maybe a thousand feet or so down the street on the same side (opposite from us), they have a very similar culvert-like structure that is level with the street, with the same type of walls. It also comes between the two yards and leads to their back yard. I presume this also happens there when it rains. What the heck could these be? I don't know of any on our side of the street, but I guess there could be some. Some type of ancient drain systems?

A big question that I have right now is...we had maybe an inch of rain Friday and Friday night. Way less than we've had a lot of times when the pump came on. It hasn't rained since midnight on Friday. It has been a little over a day and the pump is still averaging a full pump out of 80-90 gallons per hour. I don't understand how that same water from 20+ feet away from the house could be coming back into the basement again when it hasn't rained in a day and the water is most definitely flowing towards the other yard. I even physically moved the flex pipe as an experiment to right next to the fence so that I know for a fact that it was going into the other yard, just to see (note that the neighbor never even goes into his backyard for anything and this is far from his house). Still averaged an hour in between each pump cycle. Granted, there is only a small trickle in the basement that is causing this, but I don't understand.


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## slownsteady (Jan 24, 2016)

Great detective work. Looking at the contour lines in the map, and based on info in this thread, I'm going to guess that the waterway was (is?) a seasonal stream that was draining naturally toward the creek. (Seasonal streams only run when there is enough water, and appear as dry beds at other times of the year. I'll go so far as to say that your whole area probably feeds that creek in the days before houses were built there. It's  hard to say how that has been reshaped by landscaping and builders trying to make an acceptable lot out of lowlands. It's also possible that the stream is partly subterranean at times. There's a stream not far from my house that runs on the surface for some distance then just disappears into the ground, then reappears about 2 hundred yards further down. You can actually hear it running underground at times. In the spring the stream carries enough water to be visible for it's full length. Unfortunately you really can't beat a high water table under your house, unless you divert it around your house. And even then the saturated ground may just well up at times.
Those concrete channels at the other houses: Most likely that's how those folks are draining their basements. Just like you have a pipe running into your backyard, they are pumping into that ditch and they have enough slope to carry the water out to the street. The concrete channel is probably full of gravel ( maybe a pipe under that) with some soil on top. sounds like a smart solution as long as local regs allow it.


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## jmr106 (Jan 24, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Unfortunately you really can't beat a high water table under your house, unless you divert it around your house. And even then the saturated ground may just well up at times.
> Those concrete channels at the other houses: Most likely that's how those folks are draining their basements. Just like you have a pipe running into your backyard, they are pumping into that ditch and they have enough slope to carry the water out to the street. The concrete channel is probably full of gravel ( maybe a pipe under that) with some soil on top. sounds like a smart solution as long as local regs allow it.



I have pretty much given up on the idea of any kind of french drain around the house, at like $20K for a perimeter drain that I doubt will improve anything. It would have to go so far underground that it would probably cost double that or more. All outside drain attempts would likely be useless.

I'm pressing on with the goal of turning the whole floor into a french drain when it gets a little warmer. Going to figure out what to do with that water heater. That's currently the main problem. It goes from the floor of the hole to virtually the floor joists above when you count the vent and piping. Probably a 40 or 50 gallon tank. There is absolutely no room for elevation, which is probably why they didn't even put it on a block (they just sat it on the dirt floor). So now I have two options...get a smaller one installed at some point and elevated it at least a foot or more off from the floor or get an on-demand one. Either way, it is going to to have to be elevated to do anything with that. I know nothing about on-demand water heaters, though.

Actually, our city codes do not permit any type of sump discharge into the sewer. The first house (first 2 photos) is vacant and has been for years, though. I doubt that it even has power for a sump pump, unless that ditch runs to the house behind it. Then I'd wonder why the house on the back street was pumping into the street behind them. I just don't physically see how a sump pump discharge could put out that much water in such a short amount of time. For the flow coming out of that during major thunderstorms, it would have to be about 5 sump pumps continuously pumping out water all at once with no break. While neither of these drains affect our property, it makes me curious what others are doing for drainage. Even the lower drain, I remember seeing  some water coming out of that even on days when it wasn't raining. Very odd.


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## slownsteady (Jan 24, 2016)

Well if is not just draining their basement, it might be draining their backyard. Water is going to find it's path high to low, so they are just accommodating the flow with a channel. I agree that if your sump is keeping up with the flow, just do what you can to keep the equipment out of harm's way.
On a much bigger scale, if your whole neighborhood has the same problem, maybe you have a case for asking the town to do something.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

Nice research job.
With the help of Google maps , I took a drive thru some neighborhoods. I saw no evidence of a storm drain anywhere. Just the odd scupper that appear to drain street water to a creak or stream near by.
It looks like every homeowner is on there own. Looking at your map, it looks like they just build the house in the path of the water. We can only think it was fine until the basement was dug. So the more you can raise the floor the less water you will have to pump.

Get the make and model of the furnace, many can be laid on their sides and the ducts can be re-worked so everything fits within 30" of the joists.


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## jmr106 (Jan 25, 2016)

I'm starting to wonder if water isn't backing up so much behind  the wall in all of the dirt and taking forever to properly drain. A guess at best, but it doesn't seem to currently drain very well from  any other places except for that one behind the water heater area. There is a considerable space between the outside of the wall and the dirt in that area, if I remember correctly. That's probably where a lot of the dirt washed in from on that side. After a few days of rain, sometimes I can see what may be a foot or more of water inside of the bottom of the cinderblocks. I don't want to punch any holes in that wall yet, of course. I have no idea how much water will flow in after I punch through the wall, install dimple board and have everything the way it needs to be on the floor.

The plan is to change that water heater out for a smaller one. That's a 40 gallon water heater according to the paperwork. It is about 6  years old, but the base of it has flooded one time in years passed. Either get it out of the hole completely and over on the dirt somewhere or elevate it at least 2-3 feet in the hole. I doubt that they'll be willing to put it that close to the floor above, if placed on the dirt. Plus, the vent pipe is above where it is in the hole. That would have to bend a lot if placed elsewhere. To elevate it in the hole, I have pondered using a bunch of those cement blocks like the first one at the base under the heating/air system. It would take quite a lot of them, but I'm not convinced that anything else would be strong enough. There's the question, though...do I just put the gravel and cement around it once it is elevated? I'd be concerned about putting everything down and then putting all of that weight on top of the crushed gravel and cement. I guess I would just have to make sure that I sealed around the blocks very well with cement so that water wouldn't come up from around those and onto what would then be the cement.

The heating/air system...going to get the model info off from all of that stuff and research it to see if they can flip it sideways somehow and elevated it some more where it is at.

I'm going to start purchasing stuff a bit at a time soon to start preparing, instead of trying to buy everything all at once. I need to measure the exact length, width and height of the space to get more precise measurements and figure out exactly how much 3/4" crushed gravel I will need for sure. 

I'm going to get measurements on the width and length of the existing sump hole. Most of the sump basins seem to be about 24" in diameter at most. While I could use that, they're also only about 18" deep. If I can't find one wide enough, I may have to punch through the bottom somehow and make the sump hole deeper so that it can hold enough water. The 3/4HP main pump that I want to put in requires a minimum sump basin size of 18" X 24", but that isn't anywhere near the capacity of what the makeshift sump holds. The current sump hole isn't 18" deep and it is moreso the width that gives it that capacity, of course. It is maybe 14" deep. I can't find anything wider than 24" and 18" deep. There are some companies that make custom basins. I would actually prefer one a little wider and deeper so that the pump won't have to cycle as often and will still get an optimal amount of water out. That 3/4HP will kick out 4,500GPH at the roughly 9' vertical head. At 75GPM, I think it should be able to hold its own. I'll also have a backup for that in case the main one fails. I'm pretty avid with plumbing and pumps, so all of that will be very easy for me to self-install. In case of a power failure at any point in the future, there will be an automatic Pump Sentry 1622PS inverter system that converts the power from a marine battery or batteries (can chain up to 3 or 4 in series) to power the pump(s). 1600 watts output and up to 14 continuous amps. The reason why I'm picking those iON Storm Pro pumps is because I have found that they use sometimes 1/3 of the amps of most pumps their size, yet put out twice as much water. That 3/4HP runs at just under 8 amps, so a good deep cycle marine battery would last many hours even at that rate. The backup pump may actually be a 1/2HP of the same type of pump at 61GPM. The backup system could probably power both of those every few minutes for at least 2-3 hours if that much pumping was ever needed. I have the formula for calculating how much pump time on the battery types. That 1.5" PVC discharge pipe is going to have to go. 2" is required by the pumps for that kind of capacity. It looks like 2" is the biggest pipe that I can get to go through the walls, so that's going to have to do.

The sheet drain/dimple board: I have no idea about this stuff. So many different brands and types. I presume that I'm probably going to have to cut this down to size, either before or after installing on the wall. Am I correct that this would come in a big roll of some type? It looks like it comes in 4' wide, 6', etc. That seems to be one of the expensive items. I need to figure out the best way to attach it to the wall without having water spraying out from the attachment points.

The gravel would be brought by a local company. The cement...still figuring that one out. That's a heck of a lot of cement. There's no way that a cement truck or anything like that would fit between the back porch and the fence, plus I'd be scared that they might fall through the ground with that much weight (I have actually seen a cement truck fall through the dirt when it drove over an old septic tank).

So far, the next thing is going to have to be the water heater being changed out before I can even have room to do anything. They may surprise me...I'll likely have someone come out and take a peek to see in-person the small space that we're dealing with and see if there is anything at all that we can do to get that water heater over onto the crawlspace dirt. That would be a big relief and leave only the heating/air system to worry about. Plus, where the water heater is right now...if it failed and opened at the seam or something, it would spray almost right into the back of the furnace. It is only about 2.5-3 feet away from the (open) back of the furnace and I can't really do anything about that. It is open to let heat out from the burners or vent them, so I can't really block that or put anything between them. Apparently the last water heater before this one did just that - opened up at the seam and sprayed out a stream of water (didn't go into the furnace by chance) until turned off. 

Anyone have any idea if there is some kind of small tank that might fit up there on the dirt somewhere? While there is a lot of space further over in the second picture, they would need to extend the gas pipe, water pipe and vent pipe over there and I'm not sure that it would get enough angle to vent properly. Very tight space and there are pipes of all sorts running everywhere, of course. A lot of that crawlspace is sort of the "uncharted territory"...there are all kinds of things that my father apparently put down there, as well as the old owners left. I haven't exactly explored a lot of it because I have seen the occasional black widow spider down there in a web. They have never had any trouble with them up in the house, however.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

Looking a the total job you have to do, moving the pipes for a new location for the hot water tank is really no big deal. A gas fired tank will still need to be close to where it is for the vent thru the roof.
The more you raise the floor the less water you will have to pump. I can't offer much help on the pump but I do agree on the size of the sump, bigger is better. Have you checked the breaker box to see if you could install an electric tank. They do make an horizontal electric tank, but I don't know what the cost of that would be.
I would think the more you can raise the floor the less you have to worry about pump size.
Do you have a back flow valve on the pump discharge pipe?


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## jmr106 (Jan 25, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Looking a the total job you have to do, moving the pipes for a new location for the hot water tank is really no big deal. A gas fired tank will still need to be close to where it is for the vent thru the roof.
> The more you raise the floor the less water you will have to pump. I can't offer much help on the pump but I do agree on the size of the sump, bigger is better. Have you checked the breaker box to see if you could install an electric tank. They do make an horizontal electric tank, but I don't know what the cost of that would be.
> I would think the more you can raise the floor the less you have to worry about pump size.
> Do you have a back flow valve on the pump discharge pipe?




I wish I could raise that floor by feet, but unless I can find out for sure that I can turn that system sideways, I'll be limited to that 1 foot or so that I can build the floor up to the bottom of the system. I will need to find something more permanent (than those syrofoam blocks) that can hold up that system, as well. Anything that is put in there before I put down the gravel, pipes and cement around those areas...will probably be stuck there until the entire system is taken up to be replaced.

I added another photo of the water heater vent. It actually looks like the current vent is going sideways towards the side of the hole. The water heater is almost next to the edge of the hole as it is, so I need to go back down there and get some more pics and see where the actual vent goes vertical. I know where it vents out onto the roof and I see the heat/steam on cold days. It apparently vents fairly well, but what the heck? Did they even install that right? It looks like there is no rise on the angle of that vent pipe, unless it is just the angle of the photo. Still, even if pipes could be ran to the dirt and one could be put there...what kind of tank water heater could I put there that would be functional enough? At that point, there might be 2.5' from the dirt up to the floor joists.

I looked at the electric ones. The decent ones seem to be about $1,000. They have cheaper ones, but they literally put out a gallon or two per minute of water based on what I read in the specs. Then I saw some other ones that put out a decent amount comparable to a larger tank water heater, but needed something like 26KW to power. That pretty much killed it for me. Apparently they need their own dedicated circuit with about as many amps as everything inside and outside of the house combined uses. There is a 100 amp breaker, but I think the clothes dryer runs at 30 amps on its own dedicated circuit. I think the central system is also somewhere around 30 amps based on the power box outside and has its own circuit. Both pumps combined are about 10 amps. That leaves around 30 amps left over for everything else in the house. In the case that all of the big things are on around the same time, I'd rather not take the chance on an electric. 

I do have silent check valves on both pumps and they work very well (clear ones so that you can see them working). Water definitely isn't flowing back in. It hasn't rained in two days and still every 3-4 hours the pump comes on. It is getting less and less, but I remember watching it earlier in the yard today and thinking, "There is no way that is flowing back into the basement from 20-25 feet away."  So that part...I'm not sure about. It is getting less and less with time, so apparently it must be draining okay.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

Where does the furnace vent to, Silly me I assumed the two would join and go up fairly close to where they are.
Tankless hot water, we see these in some big houses now, supposed to be cheaper to operate and some brands can be installed on the outside of the exterior wall.
This one could go in the crawlspace against the foundation the exhaust is just pvc pipe.
http://kirklandheating.com/kirkland-water-heaters/noritz-nrc1111-tankless-gas-water-heater/


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## bud16415 (Jan 25, 2016)

As the plan is to eventually sell the home in today&#8217;s cautious society. 99.9% of the homes bought are financed and everyone is being required to have everything inspected and reports made out. required by banks and required by most homeowners. 

The reason I was able to buy a fairly nice house with good bones in a great community was because it was up for short sale for $25k. The bank required cash payment and stipulated as is. There was enough wrong that it would and did scare off potential buyers for several years. 

To the OP here keep in mind there are ways to pump any amount of water away from a dwelling and if the prospective buyers home inspector goes into a crawlspace basement housing heating equipment he expects to see a sump pump, for a certain amount of occasional water that could find the area. If he hears water running after a heavy rain he might look at that as normal and look at the flow and the discharge and even time the cycle or take a guess at it if it looks like it might take an hour to fill up again. If he goes in and it hasn&#8217;t just rained and he hears it running at a constant flow he may time it reporting the pump discharger 15 gal/min ran for 10 minutes off for 10 minutes and again cycled. He might recommend a second backup pump in that case and advise of the associated cost of pumping this much water. It may or may not be a show stopper to the sale, depending on what the housing market is like in the area and how desirable a location your house is in and it may just reflect in the offer they would make. 

If you were planning on living there yourself and were ok with whatever solution you come up with that&#8217;s one way to look at it, but as the plan is to fix to sell try and keep in mind what the sale process is going to be like. The house we bought for 25k we got because I told them it has these problems and there are dozens of others close by with less problems. Housing for the most part today is a buyers&#8217; market.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

Bud: I think jmr106 is looking at all options and the related cost to find the most cost effective way to make the house except-able to a buy and his or her inspector.
If the costs aren't a killer, relocation water and heat would solve the problem by just raising the floor above the water table or the closer to that as possible.
That would cut the pumping by some %.


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## bud16415 (Jan 25, 2016)

Very true. 

I had a friend that bought a home and had a chronic wet basement. He made a plan to fix it and cut 2&#8217; out around the whole basement on the inside. When he was moving the dirt out a bucket at a time he got down about 18 inches and found another basement floor. When he inspected closely the last owner jacked the house up and added to rows of blocks filled the basement and poured a new floor. He said if they had went 3 courses they might have solved the problem or that the water table may had went up over time also. He put in a sump as shallow as he could and still have it work and with his drains he ran the pump would keep up but ran a very high duty cycle. He said in looking back he should have raised the house two more blocks and poured a third basement floor.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

One of my ex-employees has house built on what is best described as jello and he has one bedroom built in what at one time was an under house carport. It already had 2 floors. He pulled the pump and let it flood just so he could see the high water mark. He took out both floors and dug out 3 ft of muck, refilled it with gravel and was able to get a 7 ft ceiling and no pump need.


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## jmr106 (Jan 25, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> The reason I was able to buy a fairly nice house with good bones in a great community was because it was up for short sale for $25k. The bank required cash payment and stipulated as is. There was enough wrong that it would and did scare off potential buyers for several years.
> 
> If you were planning on living there yourself and were ok with whatever solution you come up with that&#8217;s one way to look at it, but as the plan is to fix to sell try and keep in mind what the sale process is going to be like. The house we bought for 25k we got because I told them it has these problems and there are dozens of others close by with less problems. Housing for the most part today is a buyers&#8217; market.



That is pretty much my mother's plan, to sell to someone on a more "as is basis". Around here, a lot of people tend to buy the houses, fix them up and flip them. For instance, one up the street on the corner sold for like $32K. Saw the photos of the inside and it is way worse than my mother's house...the walls and stuff had huge holes and such in them and a lot needed to be done to it. Someone bought it and had a bunch of people come in and fix it up, now they're trying to get about $80K for it. The house across the street...it sold for like 50K and someone bought it and remodeled it, then re-sold for about 130K. A nice couple moved in there and were very quiet. Then one day someone shot outside in one of the yards (we never figured out who it was, but we thought it may have been at the house across the street from us, which was next to them). They up and left the house, moving immediately after. I don't think they sold it, they just walked away from it, and will likely have someone coming after them if it doesn't sell again for the 130K+ that is probably left on the mortgage. They only lived there for maybe a month or two.

I think she has about 45K left on this mortgage here. At one point the mortgage was just about paid off completely, but she had a lot of credit card debt and did a refinance for I think 60K or 65K back in 2004 or so, and that's why there is still that amount remaining on it.


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## slownsteady (Jan 25, 2016)

couple points from posts further up: 
*The dimple board shouldn't be subject to any pressure that would cause spray to come out of the fasteners. It simply diverts the water down the wall. If you have water coming out of those blocks under pressure, then you have a bigger or different problem.
*There is a version of dimple board that can lay flat on the floor and do the job of the gravel (you can see it on the J-Drain website) I don't know which is more cost effective, but the labor may be worth it.
* Not my area of expertise, but I would have concerns with electric water heater in a wet location like this. Higher amperage, wet ground etc.


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## slownsteady (Jan 25, 2016)

two relevant threads:

http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=18778&highlight=tankless
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=17550&highlight=tankless


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> two relevant threads:
> 
> http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=18778&highlight=tankless
> http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=17550&highlight=tankless



The second one is gas, thanks S&S
I asked havasu to drop over with what info he has on his unit.


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## jmr106 (Jan 25, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Where does the furnace vent to, Silly me I assumed the two would join and go up fairly close to where they are.
> Tankless hot water, we see these in some big houses now, supposed to be cheaper to operate and some brands can be installed on the outside of the exterior wall.
> This one could go in the crawlspace against the foundation the exhaust is just pvc pipe.
> http://kirklandheating.com/kirkland-water-heaters/noritz-nrc1111-tankless-gas-water-heater/




Nope, they're totally different and the water heater vertical vent that goes up through the bathroom closet is actually over there right next to the dirt, which makes me wonder what the possibilities are of a smaller water tank on a cement slab on the dirt.

Given how big that heating/air system is, I don't think they could cram it into the crawlspace area. I wish I could put both on the dirt and fill that stupid hole up. For the water heater, I saw some photos like this online, though. Looks like a space similar to ours.


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## slownsteady (Jan 25, 2016)

nealtw said:


> The second one is gas, thanks S&S
> I asked havasu to drop over with what info he has on his unit.



still relevant....


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Nope, they're totally different and the water heater vertical vent that goes up through the bathroom close is actually over there right next to the dirt, which makes me wonder what the possibilities are of a smaller water tank on a cement slab on the dirt.
> 
> Given how big that system is, I don't think they could cram it into the crawlspace area. I saw some photos like this online, though. Looks like a space similar to ours.



Yes you can get a squat 40 gal but what about the breaker box or do you still have fuses


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## jmr106 (Jan 25, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Yes you can get a squat 40 gal but what about the breaker box or do you still have fuses


 
100 amp breaker, I presume from the 70's or 80's. Electric clothes dryer on 30 amp, heat/air on 30 amp. Both pumps combined are about 10 amps, plus the rest of the typical stuff in the house.


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## jmr106 (Jan 25, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> couple points from posts further up:
> *The dimple board shouldn't be subject to any pressure that would cause spray to come out of the fasteners. It simply diverts the water down the wall. If you have water coming out of those blocks under pressure, then you have a bigger or different problem.
> *There is a version of dimple board that can lay flat on the floor and do the job of the gravel (you can see it on the J-Drain website) I don't know which is more cost effective, but the labor may be worth it.
> * Not my area of expertise, but I would have concerns with electric water heater in a wet location like this. Higher amperage, wet ground etc.


 
I don't see how the breaker could carry an electric water heater anyway, plus I have read that they take 10-20 seconds to kick on and you get this cold water thing going on and then a burst of hot. It seemed like everyone badmouthed the electric ones and preferred traditional tanks based on all of the reviews that I read. Tankless ones apparently come in gas, but require a 3/4" gas pipe (I have no idea if that black pipe going to the water heater is 3/4" and I think it is cast iron or something) and I read something about a forced air vent setup and all kinds of extra expensive stuff. Apparently the same vent couldn't be used, so then I'd have that open vent. Someone could cap it off at the bottom, I guess...if it were possible to get a gas on-demand. But still, it would eventually fill up with considerable water due to the semi-open roof vent for the current water heater. I need to see where that heat/air vents, as well.

Well, I meant more like lightly leaking out/dripping from the affixed lower points. The only part that "sprays" out is only about an inch or so and that's because of little cracks and such in the lower wall with water that builds up about a foot or so. There never seems to be any water beyond a foot or foot and a half inside of the lower wall. I have never looked on the outside of the wall in that space between the dirt and wall under heavy flow. It may be coming from the surrounding dirt on just the very bottom. The top or middle of the wall never seems to be wet, but I would still cover the whole thing just to be sure.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

In your very first picture in POST 1 we can see the water staining all the way to the top of the far wall.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

This is why I suggested getting the info from the furnace.


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## jmr106 (Jan 25, 2016)

nealtw said:


> In your very first picture in POST 1 we can see the water staining all the way to the top of the far wall.


 
There are some areas where the upper and middle blocks were apparently patched over with some kind of cement that looks lighter in that photo. The dirt and water staining and such...that may have been before the time when I took a peek down there and said, "Whoa, just this one little pump for all of that water??" and changed both out. Many times in the past it apparently came up to near top of the bricks, from what I have been told. So it may have been from that. During the times that I have seen it and since I have upgraded the old pump that used to be there, I haven't seen it anywhere near that high. The worst I saw was about a foot deep across the floor when it was just the one old pump. No flooding since. Just high flow if it rains a lot.

What if I dug out a little spot somewhere on the side (like a foot down or something) for both the water heater and machine and checked into getting it horizontal if the model supports it?


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## slownsteady (Jan 25, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> ...What if I dug out a little spot somewhere on the side (like a foot down or something) for both the water heater and machine and checked into getting it horizontal if the model supports it?



Sounds like it could help. But make sure you don't create a new water problem. Dig a test hole first. 
By the same logic, you could take your basement down a little deeper to create more headroom.....


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

Are you sure you don't have room for a closet in the house.


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## jmr106 (Jan 25, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Are you sure you don't have room for a closet in the house.


 
Not particularly. Given how the ones in the past have failed, she doesn't want one in the house.


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## jmr106 (Jan 25, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Sounds like it could help. But make sure you don't create a new water problem. Dig a test hole first.
> By the same logic, you could take your basement down a little deeper to create more headroom.....


 
That is what concerns me. Digging and finding water under that packed dirt. If I could get both out of the hole and raise the hole depth up by feet, I'll still have to keep a pump in there. Not willing to test my theory that the water might be capable of overflowing the bricks if left unchecked. It makes me wonder what they did before a sump was there...was the crawlspace flooding? Then if that entire hole could be filled in, it makes me wonder if water would build up and flow in from outside instead.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

I suspect that when the house was built, there was little or no problem with water. The water was always there but you wouldn't know it.
Normally we have a perimeter drain around the outside of the foundation and it is never more than a few inches below the floor water below that level can come and go as it pleases but if the drain is work properly the basement never leaks. The foundation is also water proofed. Any drain system on the outside or inside or like yours, way inside, all the local water table will find it's way to the drain. So in fact you are trying to lower the water table for the whole yard. So the more you can raise the floor, the drain and the pump, the less water you should have to pump.
I suggestion of concrete was more out of habit I think because all our craw spaces have that skim coat. but it would give some one a good working space for working on the furnace and a more finished look.
Even if you can't flip the furnace on it's side I looks like it could be raised some what. Either way you could have some one pull it for a day or two while you do the work and then have it re-installed.
It is just about finding an answer for the water tank.

I can't imagine why it failed, likely just need to be protected from kids or something.
Shell we go back and talk about a small add on for just the tank on the outside of the house. If that was done right, maybe the next if they don't like it could change it out to an on demand unit.


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## nealtw (Jan 28, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Not particularly. Given how the ones in the past have failed, she doesn't want one in the house.



I would talk to the permit dept. and get the requirements and she might feel better about it. The old one must of been against code but these things are in houses all the time..


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## jmr106 (Jan 28, 2016)

If I changed the water heater out for a short gas model (probably will be a bit hard to find) and could by some means get the heating/air system horizontal and out of the hole; what are the odds that there will still be issues with water in the hole if I raised the floor up by about 2-3 feet with crushed gravel? I'd still stick a sump basin in there using the method of a basin with holes in it to gather the water from the surrounding gravel (if it got that high to need to be pumped. Would I still need to cement over the gravel? Part of me reasons that if the floor was raised at least halfway, the water issue wouldn't be as bad. The other part of me reasons that...filling it with something like crushed gravel would be sort of like adding rocks in a glass and filling it with water. The gravel would displace what was once space and cause the water to probably build up rather quickly among the gravel, I would think. Even with less water, it might seem like more. Or am I looking at it incorrectly? Presumably, I wouldn't need any type of drain pipes if a sump was installed directly into the gravel with holes large enough to let water through, but not let the gravel in.

The one that was in the kitchen when they got the house was against code. The other 2 or 3 or whatever it was in years passed were either flooded and/or old and needed to be replaced. The water heater that opened up at the seam and sprayed out a stream of water years ago...not sure what happened with that one. It was apparently fairly old, but the plumbers that installed the new one noted how that isn't normal at all.


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## nealtw (Jan 28, 2016)

One other thought. Just looked at the photo of the new roof, I think we should be able to see the B vent for the furnace if not both. 2 ft above anything with in 10 ft, I think. So unless they are right at the back of the house.


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## nealtw (Jan 28, 2016)

Yes the more you raise the floor the higher you can set the pump. I don't think it is a 1 for on 1 calculation so if you raise it half way you might only have to pump 1/3 or 1/4 the water.
If you could raise it above  the high water table the pump would only be needed for extreme flood situations. If you dig a hole near but out side the house you might get an idea what the high water level is but it will still be effected by the fact you are still pumping. The only way you would know for sure what that level is would be to let it flood, not a good idea.
If you are going to all this work you will want to do some of the easy stuff to make it look like you have looked after all the details so I thing I would plan on covering all the dirt with poly. But poly won't work all that well for the gravel any one wants to get in there and work on something. You could cover the gravel with something like dimple board and set a few 16 x 16 pavers for stepping on..
If it looks finished you won't have an inspector digging a few inches into the gravel and finding water. The water will be there but if it is all sealed up it is non of his business.

I have looked for a short gas tank, I think  there no such thing.
If you did dig a hole in the yard, that is not the kind of thing you want to leave open. You did a hole you plant a piece of 4 inch perforated pipe and back fill the hole with gravel and cap a piece of 2" white  pipe on both ends mark heights on the white pipe and wait for it to rain , the white pipe will float. That would give you some idea of how high you need to come up


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## nealtw (Jan 29, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Not particularly. Given how the ones in the past have failed, she doesn't want one in the house.



The only thing I have found is it should not share a space in a closet, so a closet built just for the tank??????????


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## jmr106 (Jan 29, 2016)

Out of curiosity, why have the short gas models been discontinued? These were apparently called lowboys. They have them in electric still. The electric reviews are generally unsatisfied and say that their bills increased considerably.


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## nealtw (Jan 29, 2016)

The only place I have seen small tanks used is small commercial shops with an office, often built to fit the first tenant. Cheap and easy, no gas line, no vent and easy to move. Maybe just didn't sell enough.


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## nealtw (Jan 29, 2016)

better answer.
http://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/short-gas-water-heater-lowboy.49171/


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## nealtw (Jan 29, 2016)

I think one of these hung on the outside of the house, say outside the kitchen or the bathroom, would not only solve your problem but with their higher efficiency , it would add to the selling features. That is if you can flip or raise the furnace.


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## jmr106 (Jan 29, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I think one of these hung on the outside of the house, say outside the kitchen or the bathroom, would not only solve your problem but with their higher efficiency , it would add to the selling features. That is if you can flip or raise the furnace.


 
The electric one? The breaker and wiring would need to be changed.


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## slownsteady (Jan 29, 2016)

I was going to suggest an Amtrol Hot water Maker, which is zoned off the boiler. But in your case, you would have to have a hot water baseboard system, which means changing everything. If you are thinking of replacing the heat system you have now, then I think it's a great option.


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## jmr106 (Jan 29, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> I was going to suggest an Amtrol Hot water Maker, which is zoned off the boiler. But in your case, you would have to have a hot water baseboard system, which means changing everything. If you are thinking of replacing the heat system you have now, then I think it's a great option.


 
I think that system is about 2 years old at most. The installation company apparently didn't try to install anything that would get it out of the hole. It is my understanding that they said they could elevate it as much as possible (like it is now) and didn't even suggest a horizontal system.


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## slownsteady (Jan 30, 2016)

hacks...........................


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## jmr106 (Jan 30, 2016)

What are the chances of using a smaller tank meant for a commercial setting, in a residential home? If even available, I'm sure they are likely quite hard to find. Might not be code acceptable. A company probably wouldn't be willing to put such a thing into a residential property.

My options seem to be very limited.

1. An external on-demand that would cost thousands to run new pipe, install forced venting, upgrade gas line, etc. I researched and about $3000 installed is a very average number. However, the breaker can't handle the amps for that and would likely need to be changed and require upgraded wiring. I'm 100% sure that the breaker can't handle an electric, unless they make a small electric tank that uses like 15 amps max. I doubt that.

2. Raise the floor and keep both the water heater and system in it. Get the shortest gas water heater available and elevate it on something unknown at the time that will last a long time. If I filled in the hole and cemented it first, even with 2.5" of cement to sit on top of crushed gravel it whatever, eventually that weight will crack the cement when the rocks shift or sink a bit. Elevating it and raising the floor afterwards would leave the open space around it where whatever was elevating it would still be on the original floor, even if I put the gravel and cement around it.

3) Put a small attachment outside for the water heater. Lots of insulation and extra pipes run. Probably will look odd and a cost a lot to build and insulate. Possible code violation and loss of heat, water pipes susceptible to freezing, etc. Furnace either raised or moved to the side. Possibly neither can be done. Still checking on that.


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## slownsteady (Jan 30, 2016)

4) Forget the new concrete floor, improve your sump pumps and extend the drain pipe for them as far away as possible. Gravel seems to make some sense, but the net gain doesn't add up, IMO


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## jmr106 (Jan 31, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> 4) Forget the new concrete floor, improve your sump pumps and extend the drain pipe for them as far away as possible. Gravel seems to make some sense, but the net gain doesn't add up, IMO


 
The pumps are the easy part. The discharge pipe...I wish I could run that thing a hundred feet from the house, but I can't. At the back of the yard are very large pine trees that are at risk of losing their ground if I discharged that much water in the sloped area back there. Currently it discharges as far as it can be ran, 20-25 feet from the house.

It really isn't about just trying to add value to the house. I'd "like" to do that as a benefit (who wouldn't?), but it is more so to take care of the water problem for the remainder of the time. I would fill it half full of gravel and put in a proper sump even if no equipment was in the hole. It would still help the water flow to not be as bad and make it look a little better.


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## zannej (Jan 31, 2016)

Do you have an idea of what brand pumps you plan to get? I would strongly advise against getting the Countryline ones sold from Tractor Supply Co. Those are utter rubbish from my experience.


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## KULTULZ (Jan 31, 2016)

I have just recently became aware of TRACTOR SUPPLY (moving to rural area). You would think that they would sell quality goods (if there are any left), but mostly they handle CHI-COM junk... :hide:

HARBOR FREIGHT is another great source of junk.


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## jmr106 (Jan 31, 2016)

zannej said:


> Do you have an idea of what brand pumps you plan to get? I would strongly advise against getting the Countryline ones sold from Tractor Supply Co. Those are utter rubbish from my experience.


 
 I like the iON company, particularly the Storm Pro series. This would be the main pump: http://www.sumppumpsdirect.com/iON-Products-BA-75M-Sump-Pump/p2879.html. It is meant for a harsh environment with high flows and small solids, if necessary.

The backup looks just like it, but 1/2HP version. 

They are designed to pump as much water as most high-end submersibles, yet use half the  starting and running amps than most. The main one would run on just under 8 amps at around 4,500GPH. A comparable pump in other popular brands can be around 20 running amps for the same amount of flow. The marine battery system that will serve as a backup will power the main and backup pump together, if needed. Otherwise, with the lower amps, one marine battery of high capacity could power that main pump every few minutes for nearly an entire day. Batteries can be added and chained if needed. Automatic system that recharges by itself and switches over when there is a loss of power. Rare for us, but in central Georgia we have had tropical storms go over us and flood lots of areas. Or, when it rains a lot, trees can down lines and it might take hours to get power restored. That's  another reason why I like those particular pumps. Very good battery backup life, yet with main pumps and not those silly 12v cheap backup pumps. Plus, they keep the regular power bill down even if pumping for days. Good reviews from everyone that bought then. The float switch can be changed to an electrode version without a float in order to get around the half of a foot or so differential and have it pump an entire basin out at once, instead of constantly coming on pumping out every half of a foot of water.

I would order from Sump Pumps Direct. They are a division of Power Equipment Direct. They have amazing service and actually know their products. I have dealt with them before.

I mused about the pumps at home improvement stores, checking then just out of curiosity. They all carry the cheapest, smaller pumps like Flotec, which has a horrible reputation for breaking. Usually they have nothing over 1/2HP and sometimes not above 1/3 HP.


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## slownsteady (Jan 31, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> The pumps are the easy part. The discharge pipe...I wish I could run that thing a hundred feet from the house, but I can't. At the back of the yard are very large pine trees that are at risk of losing their ground if I discharged that much water in the sloped area back there. Currently it discharges as far as it can be ran, 20-25 feet from the house.
> 
> It really isn't about just trying to add value to the house. I'd "like" to do that as a benefit (who wouldn't?), but it is more so to take care of the water problem for the remainder of the time. I would fill it half full of gravel and put in a proper sump even if no equipment was in the hole. It would still help the water flow to not be as bad and make it look a little better.



Are those trees in a basin? Just because it's flatter doesn't mean it's flat. It looks like you have slope all the way down to the 'official' creek, based on the contour lines on that map a  few pages back. Extend the discharge all the way to the back of your property (further, if there is a buffer between properties) in the most down hill direction. Or turn the pipe towards the street like your neighbors do.


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## nealtw (Feb 1, 2016)

Unless the trees are on the side of the gully I don't see the problem. Do you something about that than we don't?


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## jmr106 (Feb 1, 2016)

At the very back part of the yard, there is a 7' tall fence. The land from that portion slants down halfway into a type of gulley area that goes until just over the ridge of where it looks like the land slants back, if you're looking at it from a front-to-back point of view. It isn't really a ditch or anything, just where each side of the land slants downward and meets under the pine trees towards the front. If I pump out there, all of it will turn into a deep puddle and basically surround a lot of the trees. Particularly on the back right side where it tends to form deep puddles when it rains anyway. My concern for that is that the ground may become too saturated and the trees might not be able to hold their ground.


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## nealtw (Feb 1, 2016)

The should have a tree expert on staff, I would ask his opinion before I ruled it out. There is likely set back rules but the city should be helping you with free advice.
Then I would be check elevations for the whole yard to see if you could be draining the basement with out a pump.


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## slownsteady (Feb 1, 2016)

JMR: are you saying that water collects at the base of those trees naturally in a heavy rain? And does that water hang around for a while? It's not unusual for surface water to collect, as long as it moves eventually. No one can tell over the internet whether the water is a threat to the trees, but if the ground under them is not swampy for days after a rain, then the drainage may not be too bad. Your old map also shows the streams that were once there. In short, you should be trying to follow that stream bed with your discharge. hopefully, it's not into the house next door.


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## jmr106 (Feb 3, 2016)

I'm back with more pics.

I'm attaching a panorama of the back yard to show the general land shape. Under the trees on the right side, just over that slope...that's where the puddle photo was taken. It sort of goes down in that area. If I got the map location right and the intermittent stream (that's what it is, because the topo maps use a blue dashed line indicating that) is running through our property, then it would be going diagonally in the photo. It would run from the bottom left of the photo to the upper right in that direction. However, the puddle doesn't flow...just sits there and puddles when it rains. So that may just be because the back portion of the yard (from the fence to the center part of the trees) slopes down and the front portion of that area also slopes down at the right side.

I took a panorama closer to the ground to show the general back yard land layout from the trees facing the house. It is pretty flat, but not necessary directing everything at the house from what I can see. You can see that the discharge area from the house is a pretty decent distance. Given how the water pools in the back, I'm very wary of discharging anymore water near those pine trees. All opinions from those who work with trees and landscaping have warned me not to do that or risk having a tree come through the house. I can't do much about the puddling...that can stay for 2-3 days if it rains for 3-4 days. Eventually it goes away on its own, of course. 

I took one just showing the general front yard. It isn't particularly sloped, either...it is rather flat. It is much shorter and of course discharging the sump out by the street and into the sewer is against city code. I'm in the big city, so I'd have issues from city ordinance.


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## nealtw (Feb 3, 2016)

That water gathered there when those trees were seedlings. That puddle is the the water table and the trees are handling it just fine. The dirt absorbs the water at a rate that the trees are happy with.
If the water was running through the trees and down a bank into a creek I would be worried about them.
I would be checking elevations of the yard to see if you could just run a pipe out of the crawl space to this area with out a pump.


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## jmr106 (Feb 3, 2016)

I also have some more photos. This is from a while ago, when there was what I would refer to as a cloudburst-type thunderstorm. It didn't stick around for long, maybe 20-30 minutes at most. It dumped an insane amount of rain. As you can see, the street was covered from side to side with muddy water. Half or more of that water is actually coming out of the driveway/yard/culvert a few houses up the street. Due to decently high curbs on the yards and our driveway being elevated a few inches, that doesn't really run into our yard much. During more normal rains, it only does that on the opposite side of the street and extends out maybe a few feet and just runs down into the sewers. This area apparently gets a higher flow of water in general.

I am posting these to show what heavy rain does in our front and back yards. 

You can see why I thought the stream might flow from left to right in the yard. According to the old map, if it is still there, it would run from somewhere around the area where I am standing and go diagonally under the yard all the way back to the right back part of the yard. The puddle back there under the trees doesn't move, and is opposite of the "flow" direction of what the stream should be.

During that particular storm, water was flowing rapidly, inches deep around the back of the house, all over the driveway out front, washing down through all back yards in the same center part, about half of a foot deep. I have a few videos of that time...the basement had a half of a foot deep of water (most of the way up to the blocks supporting the system, before more than one pump was installed and just the 1/3HP was there). I could hear sirens going all over the place. It was pretty crazy. That 1/3HP pedestal stayed on for about an hour straight to get rid of all of that water, so that was at least about 2,300+ gallons of water during that one hour. Of course, now I have upgraded them and the last time we had one of those storms about 2-3 months ago, both pumps kicked in. The water never made it out of the top of the sump hole itself, but took a while to go down. That was probably 80+ gallons per minute given that the pumps were both sharing the 1 1/2" pipe and that slows down some of the max flow of both. Another reason why I want to run 2" PVC when I get everything fixed.


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## nealtw (Feb 3, 2016)

So all that water around the house finds it's way to your pump. The more you can raise the floor the less water you have to pump.


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## jmr106 (Feb 3, 2016)

nealtw said:


> So all that water around the house finds it's way to your pump. The more you can raise the floor the less water you have to pump.




Yep. Current plan is figuring out what to do about the water heater. The Lowboy ones apparently aren't efficient and are virtually non-existent in a gas version. The breaker can't handle an electric water heater without rewiring the house. Considering a gas-fired on-demand one. New pipes may have to be ran from the meter about 20 feet away. A plug would have to be installed down there to handle that (unsure what breaker to put it on). Can't get the electric on-demand one. I "could" remove the water heater and machine, elevate the floor and such and then have both put down on top of it. I'd rather get both out of the hole completely. Pretty much tired of worrying about them. 

Still trying to verify if the current furnace can be turned horizontal. I'm going to try to get that off to the side and have both out of the hole completely.

The plan would be to fill the hole with 2.5 to 3 feet of crushed gravel and install a proper sump basin. Pretty sure I would still need to dimple board the walls before the gravel, then put the basin in and cement over the top of the whole gravel area. I know this sounds like a lot of work, but I feel that even if I filled in the entire hole level at the top of the bricks with crushed gravel...I feel that because the wall is there, it would help the water flow more freely and possibly still flood the basement by going over the top of the bricks. I believe the water table may have raised a lot over the past 35 years...perhaps naturally and due to various drainage and constructions around the area. I would pretty much rather have a dry sump and pump that is never needed than to need one and not have it. Scared to get rid of it completely.

I need to elevate the crawlspace entrance somehow. The water runs right under the door crack from the ground outside. Adding anything to build up the area in front of the door would make the door get stuck on it when it is opened. I thought about building a little cement ledge under the front edge of the door and building a slightly smaller door and frame above it.


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## bud16415 (Feb 3, 2016)

Take a pipe or stick and pound it in the ground as shown at the tree line.  Run a string from the ground at the corner of the house back to the pipe and put a string level on it so it is level. Measure from the ground up to the string at the pipe. Now measure the length of the string and report back.


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## jmr106 (Feb 4, 2016)

Also, an update on that furnace:

Found info that states that it is "RGP507EAMER 75K 3 Ton Drive Upflow Gas Furnace"

A google search only gave 3 results, and one of them is this:

http://cdn.globalimageserver.com/fetchdocument-rh.aspx?name=rgps-specification-sheets

It appears to be capable of being installed horizontally, but I see some warnings on there that it has to be installed a certain way and that certain sides shouldn't face up. Now the question is...can they fit it in that space somewhere on one of the sides of the hole? It has a lot of extra stuff on it (air handler, etc.) that I presume they would have to tailor to make it work horizontally somehow.


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## nealtw (Feb 4, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Yep. Current plan is figuring out what to do about the water heater. The Lowboy ones apparently aren't efficient and are virtually non-existent in a gas version. The breaker can't handle an electric water heater without rewiring the house. Considering a gas-fired on-demand one. New pipes may have to be ran from the meter about 20 feet away. A plug would have to be installed down there to handle that (unsure what breaker to put it on). Can't get the electric on-demand one. I "could" remove the water heater and machine, elevate the floor and such and then have both put down on top of it. I'd rather get both out of the hole completely. Pretty much tired of worrying about them.
> 
> Still trying to verify if the current furnace can be turned horizontal. I'm going to try to get that off to the side and have both out of the hole completely.
> 
> ...



Just to clear this up. All the on demand water system I have referred to are gas. The cost is higher but installation is no big deal.

The way to deal with water at the crawlspace door is to built a curb on the outside that you step down into with a drain at the bottom with pipe running to the pump. That keeps the entry area dry and holds out surface water.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Ec...ankless-Gas-Water-Heater-ECOH200XLN/203404948


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## jmr106 (Feb 4, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Just to clear this up. All the on demand water system I have referred to are gas. The cost is higher but installation is no big deal.
> 
> The way to deal with water at the crawlspace door is to built a curb on the outside that you step down into with a drain at the bottom with pipe running to the pump. That keeps the entry area dry and holds out surface water.
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Ec...ankless-Gas-Water-Heater-ECOH200XLN/203404948




Looks like that could work for the water heater. So these are usually mounted on the outside brick of the house? I'm guessing they already have the heat built in for things like winter weather when it is 10 degrees outside. 

Do they use any type of electrical at all? Is an outlet required?

Is there anything similar that might be able to go inside of the basement, or is that usually not recommended and would cost a lot more for forced air venting and such?

Is there a way for me to figure out how big the current gas pipe supplying the water heater is? I put up the only pics that I could find of it with things to compare it to. I presume that is an old cast iron pipe. Would they need to replace that all the way back to the meter? It goes over and connects to the stove pipe and also branches off to the furnace with a flex hose.

Granted, with either option, I would then have an open vent on top of the roof that went down to the basement through the bathroom closet. But it gets it out of the basement, so I guess it could be capped off down there or something.

Just trying to get a good idea of how much this would actually cost for everything to be converted over to it. It appears that if I purchased something like that from Home Depot, for instance...there is a $500 rebate through Atlanta Gas Light, our company.

That is a good idea for the basement door. I do have a problem, however. When you go inside of the basement door, it basically grades down considerably until it reaches the top edge of the bricks around the hole. Essentially, it is funneling the water down. Someone has apparently put some cement or concrete over that area just inside of the door. I'd have to break through that to do anything with a pipe under there. I'm not sure that I'd get that depth for the drain, either...at least, not without shaving some of the bottom of the foundation rock (under the door) away in order to run the pipe. It is a bit hard to explain, but since it slopes down as you go inside of the door, the pipe would also have to go considerably under the dirt and also punch through the cinderblock wall. From the edge of the door to the actual bricks just a few feet away, it probably slopes down nearly a foot and that's just to the top of the bricks.


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## nealtw (Feb 4, 2016)

Most of those heaters are made for the inside and they direct vet out the wall, Not sure it would fit in the crawlspace and if it did you would have to core a hole thru the  foundation for the vent.There some that are made for outside and I think the restriction on both will be distance from windows and such. I think they run a bigger gas line from the meter for these, but I am not sure, but that would be copper now, not as big a deal as it used to be.
The drain at the entrance would be nice, sounds like it would be a lot of work.
I would leave that thought for now, you have enough on your plate to figure out.
Get the name and numbers off that furnace.


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## slownsteady (Feb 4, 2016)

You may want to start a new thread in the HVAC forum for the heater, and another fresh thread for the furnace. This one is too long and winding for anyone to just jump into, and it seems you'll get more expert advice there.


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## nealtw (Feb 4, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> You may want to start a new thread in the HVAC forum for the heater, and another fresh thread for the furnace. This one is too long and winding for anyone to just jump into, and it seems you'll get more expert advice there.



Good Idea..............


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## jmr106 (Feb 4, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Most of those heaters are made for the inside and they direct vet out the wall, Not sure it would fit in the crawlspace and if it did you would have to core a hole thru the  foundation for the vent.There some that are made for outside and I think the restriction on both will be distance from windows and such. I think they run a bigger gas line from the meter for these, but I am not sure, but that would be copper now, not as big a deal as it used to be.
> The drain at the entrance would be nice, sounds like it would be a lot of work.
> I would leave that thought for now, you have enough on your plate to figure out.
> Get the name and numbers off that furnace.



Yeah, outside seems to be best, anyway. I was just thinking about how warm the external water heater would keep itself during the coldest of winter time to avoid freezing. For instance, one of the reviews by a customer of that one on that site states that it used to freeze up at 10F. 

The drain...I'll have to figure that out later. For now, I'm also going to fix that gutter issue and try to get the water from that as far away from the house as possible.


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## nealtw (Feb 4, 2016)

The outside units are rated for some temps but that will have to be checked, local suppliers should know if they are good in the area.


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## zannej (Feb 4, 2016)

Nice little spiders you've got in your basement. Have you named them?


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## jmr106 (Feb 5, 2016)

zannej said:


> Nice little spiders you've got in your basement. Have you named them?



Nope. They have met their fate with Raid Fumigator quite a lot of times, however (the smoke kind, not the liquid foggers). Lots of large, typical outdoor spiders down there and cellar/"vibrating" spiders. I once took a photo with my cell phone looking into one of the drain cinderblocks at the base of the wall, at the floor level in the hole. I was curious what it looked like in there, and upon blowing it up on the computer, I saw that there was a black window with the red hourglass visible. We've never had any issue with those coming into the house, however. I have seen them in little webs in cracks of the porches, as well...so not too much that can be done where they won't keep coming back in there. They're pretty common...most people here even have them in the water cut-offs by the street. I once opened ours to turn off the water to work on some basic plumbing stuff and I found a whole family in there. Momma spider wasn't happy when I pulled that cover off, and she was sitting right on the underside of it. She had a ton of baby widows with her, too.


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## slownsteady (Feb 5, 2016)

Jmr: with your new-found knowledge of sump pumps, you should check in on this thread and share some of your info: http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=20077


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## nealtw (Feb 5, 2016)

A french drain is as I understand it usually a spot in the yard where you can dig a trench or a hole and fill it with gravel, dump water in it and water will dissipate
into the ground around it at a pace that  will not cause a stream or erode the ground.

Your description of the area in the trees sounds a lot like a french drain.

The water that lays a little behind the house, may run to the neighbors may also be seeping into the soil and finding it's way back into your basement.


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## slownsteady (Feb 5, 2016)

I have a feeling you can throw a wheelbarrow full of dirt on the spot where that puddle forms and that little problem would be gone.


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## jmr106 (Feb 5, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Jmr: with your new-found knowledge of sump pumps, you should check in on this thread and share some of your info: http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=20077




Gotcha. Just left them a ton of info to think about/find out so that they don't have to spend a year trying to research everything for their problem. Wow, I thought I had a tough issue. At least mine can be fixed/moved and adjusted by a lot in order to alleviate or solve the problem. I have never seen a house built that close to a body of water like that. Unbelievable. They're going to need a brute-force pumping system for that one, along with a good backup system. If they use the battery backup system that I'll be installing, they'll need 3 really high capacity marine batteries and a minimum 3/4HP standalone main pump. That would probably keep them with power for about 2 days. There is a very irritating equation that I have spent a while doing before, which basically tells you how many hours the battery can power the pump for if it goes on for x amount of time, pumps for x amount of time and stays off for x amount of time. Realistically, with 3 top of the line batteries, they might still be able to have no power for 2+ days and not flood at all. There are some amazing pumps and backup systems out there nowadays.


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## jmr106 (Feb 5, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> I have a feeling you can throw a wheelbarrow full of dirt on the spot where that puddle forms and that little problem would be gone.




It is possible that it might go away completely. I might just do that at some point. It doesn't really hurt anything and we never go back there, I'd just rather not discharge the pump back there. 

I'm still mulling over just how much to fill in the hole and what would logically happen if it were filled in at different depths; ranging from raising it just a foot or two with crushed gravel to raising it all the way to within a foot or foot and a half of the top of the bricks. I'm pondering the latter, actually. I'll still be installing a sump basin, pump and backup pump there just in case. I'll add a backup system just in case, as well.

This isn't really a "common" situation, I don't imagine. Logic tells me that with filling in the hole and raising it above the water table as much as possible, it should alleviate some or perhaps all of the flow. But the bricks are there and allow that space - almost an easier flow path unlike the dirt that they surround. The other part of my logic says that adding such a large amount of material within the hole will displace the water some (like adding a bunch of ice to a half-full glass of water - the water goes to the top even if there isn't that much due to lack of space) and may actually cause it to rise up to the top of the bricks. If there was enough water flow built up, of course. Not too fond of those stories about it "flooding up to the top of the bricks" when it was just a water heater down there, though. I have never seen that, but that was what happened when they only had a single 1/3HP down there with no backup when the power went off. I'd rather prepare for the same amount of water flow that I have now and have it look nicer and basically not be as messy than to not put anything there and have it flood all over the place down there. I'm still not entirely convinced that raising it almost up to the bricks with crushed gravel will keep water from reaching and/or trying to go above that point. I don't know exactly how high the water table is, of course. But the hydrostatic pressure behind the bricks pushing the water that would already be in the gravel...it makes me wonder how that is going to work. However, if I filled in the hole with just dirt...it may flood. The situation would be terrible for a sump basin, as well. 

So basically if I filled the entire hole over with either gravel or dirt - even up to the level of the original crawlspace - I'm not convinced that the hydrostatic pressure behind the bricks wouldn't try to get an advantage. The bricks add an interesting mix into the equation in that they are hollow and wouldn't function like the dirt. That may sound strange.

I don't really know what to expect of it, even if I raised it up to a foot from the top of the bricks. I'm not concerned about water coming out of the surrounding crawlspace dirt, but rather, the displacement pressure forcing the water up through the gravel in the hole.


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## nealtw (Feb 5, 2016)

I think we can a agree that the problems are understood.
Always first on that list is budget. If you were going to give the house away cheap you would not have had a new roof installed.
Raising the floor will cut down on volume of water to be pumped. maybe all of it.

I think you have to talk to a Rheem dealer for info on flipping the furnace or re-arranging it as is but get it as high as possible and see how that fits the budget as well as the new water system.
If that does't fit the budget we can quit talking about it and look at other solutions.

I am not sure we covered the question , was there at one time a septic system here. Is there a possibility that there is still a drain field that is feeding water back to the house thru the old sewer pipe?


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## jmr106 (Feb 6, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I am not sure we covered the question , was there at one time a septic system here. Is there a possibility that there is still a drain field that is feeding water back to the house thru the old sewer pipe?



Still unsure on that one. I should probably hunt for a septic tank and dig around here and there. I kind of put that idea of going to the courthouse on hold due to a lot of stuff going on at work lately and my desire to just forget about the hole. The water heater for sure will be converted to gas-fired and moved outside maybe next month. I figure that it may cost $2,000+ installed. I'll get a $500 rebate on it from the local gas company.

Going to try to get that model info on the furnace later today. If it can go horizontal, in a month or two, it will be moved to the crawlspace. 

I want to stay in budget, but our overtime at work runs from late March all the way to December, 7 days per week except for any time off here and that that can be requested. So there will be a lot of extra money (just not extra time) to be able to get stuff done.

I figure that for the water heater install (going to make sure that it can handle the freezing temps outside), the flipping and relocating of the furnace, the crushed gravel to fill the hole nearly to the top, dual pumps, sump basin and backup, I'll probably be around $4K to 5K for everything. But it handles the problem. That is my chief goal...to get it over and done with.


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## nealtw (Feb 8, 2016)

I see you have good news on the furnace. I would look at hanging it maybe right over one of the block wall so when you are finished with filling the hole with new sump you might end up with nice clean area for someone to get to, to change filters and service the unit.


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## jmr106 (Feb 8, 2016)

Okay, so I know for sure that I'm going to try for an external on-demand gas water heater. That gets the water heater out of the hole completely and also a new water heater, because that one down there won't last its quoted lifespan. You'll see why with the photo I took yesterday morning when I went down to look for the model on the furnace. Trying to get to the back side of the furnace, I sank into about 3 to 4 inches of mud. The water heater isn't covered in mud, but is essentially sitting on a mud/water combo. Definitely not good for it. Doesn't matter now anyway, of course.

The furnace is going to be hanged from the floor joists. I like that option better than on top of the crawlspace dirt, even if it was elevated on something like cement blocks. In the near future, I'll be checking on both of those to make sure that they are a done deal. Whatever needs to be done to make both of those happen, I'm going to do it.

My planning is now regarding what to do with the hole, which will be completely empty after those two are moved. The higher it is filled, the less water should need to be pumped out. I still need to measure the exact depth on both ends (it seems like the sump end isn't as tall or something on the back end...probably just the illusion that the washed-down dirt on the other end makes). I'd like to keep a little distance from the top of the bricks just to have a low point in the basement. We've never had any water in the actual crawlspace area, but if a freak storm every did happen that caused that, it would go into the hole and not everywhere else. That's going to be a heck of a lot of gravel. What, probably around 5 to 7 cubic meters or something like that? That's obviously going to be in the several tons of gravel estimate, I would imagine. Getting that down there should be pretty interesting. I thought about building some kind of steep wooden slide going from outside of the basement door and slanting all the way down to the sump end of the hole. Once in the basement later, I can move it over as it builds up. 

A positive point is that even with a sump installed, the floor would technically be raised by about 1.5' (down to the bottom of the 18" sump basin). That's 1.5' less of a pumping head and gives another 5 gallons extra per minute even on a 1/2HP pump, so I likely wouldn't need a 3/4HP pump. Change the pipe to 2" PVC. Throw a couple of 1/2HP pumps in there with silent check valves (one as a backup that may never get used, but I'd rather have it there in case of a main pump failure) and the final thing will be battery backup. Without the 3/4HP pump being necessary after the floor is raised, the dual pumps could actually be entirely powered by the battery backup in the case that both were ever needed and the power was mysteriously out. I don't ever see that happening, but it would make me feel better.

My new questions would be:

Would dimple board along the inside of the wall still be necessary if I filled the entire hole just about to the top of the bricks with 3/4" crushed gravel? If dimple board wouldn't be needed, should I drill holes in the base of the wall or leave it as-is? The sump basin will be put into the top of the gravel when I have filled it about halfway, and then I would just fill around it. Trying to do it later would cause the gravel to keep collapsing in on itself and I'd never get the basin in. The basin would likely extend about halfway down to the floor. I would put in a basin that is wider and not as deep, but the smallest depth that they come in seems to be about 18". The hole is about 3' to the top of the bricks, so it would still need to do some pumping if the water did rise that high.

Of course, those are cinderblocks that make up the wall. They have two holes in the top of each one of them and of course go all the way down to the floor. Spiders, dirt, whatever, goes down into them. Should I go around and fill all of them with crushed gravel and smooth over the top of them with cement to seal them off? Or would that do more harm than good? Just want to make everything be a little neater and as closed-off to open water as possible. 

The way the current basement door situation is, the water just runs under the basement door and along the sloped-down path until it reaches the cinderblocks. It goes flush at the top of the blocks. I presume that part of the water that runs in goes into the cinderblocks and the rest of it runs in between the holes and down the inside of the wall. So I will definitely have to figure out a way to permanently stop that from the outside.

Once everything is installed, I'm still planning on skimming over everything with the 2.5" or more of cement all across the top of the gravel. The basin would be sealed around the top edges and that would kind of hold it in place in the gravel, as well.

Probably the only thing that I'm (likely unreasonably) wondering about now is...if I fill this whole thing in, will I cause a water problem elsewhere due to pressure building up? Theoretically, the water should flow through that 3/4" gravel like it isn't there, right? So if the basin that I install is wrapped in netting (to keep out debris) and sits halfway down into the gravel with plenty of holes in the basin, it should still be able to pump out if water did come up to that point. The gravel should be fine for still allowing proper drainage and not causing pressure to build up behind the walls, right? I mean, I want it to pump less, which is why I'm raising the floor. But I also don't want it building up and spilling out elsewhere and flowing into the closed sump from above if that that makes sense. Like over the wall or something. That's kind of what scares me about having a closed sump with a proper lid and such on it, too.


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## jmr106 (Feb 8, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I see you have good news on the furnace. I would look at hanging it maybe right over one of the block wall so when you are finished with filling the hole with new sump you might end up with nice clean area for someone to get to, to change filters and service the unit.



I'm going to try to have them hang approximately where it is now, but a bit over that back side wall if they can. Theoretically so that the filter would be facing the side where the door is and accessible from what would be the built-up hole with gravel.


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## nealtw (Feb 8, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Okay, so I know for sure that I'm going to try for an external on-demand gas water heater. That gets the water heater out of the hole completely and also a new water heater, because that one down there won't last its quoted lifespan. You'll see why with the photo I took yesterday morning when I went down to look for the model on the furnace. Trying to get to the back side of the furnace, I sank into about 3 to 4 inches of mud. The water heater isn't covered in mud, but is essentially sitting on a mud/water combo. Definitely not good for it. Doesn't matter now anyway, of course.
> 
> The furnace is going to be hanged from the floor joists. I like that option better than on top of the crawlspace dirt, even if it was elevated on something like cement blocks. In the near future, I'll be checking on both of those to make sure that they are a done deal. Whatever needs to be done to make both of those happen, I'm going to do it.
> 
> ...



Once the furnace and tank a moved you could let it flood once and see where the high water  level. I would drill holes thru the blocks first and I would drill thru all the blocks so water has no resistance to running and dirt will fill into the blocks so drilling holes high up too will give it years of use. With feet of gravel in the hole to filter the dirt out of the water it would have decades of use without worry.

Keep in mind that if you raise the floor and set the pump feet higher, and allow water to come and go as it pleases, it will be there throw out the wet season, it should not bother you anymore and there will be a lot less water movement and therefore a lot less dirt being moved around. So I think that dirt will not be a big problem.
But for extra insurance for the drit plugging all the holes in the block you dig out the outside of the top row of blocks and put in the landscape fabric to cover  the top set of hole and then level the dirt to the top of the blocks.

The ramp from the door to the hole, if that is like a side walk shape could you dig down outside and tunnel on an angle to get inside beside the ramp. If that would work then you could run a drain down and break thru a block for a drain  just outside the door..
I would not worry about up pressure at all, as long as you have pump level set below the floor level.
Then I would cover all the crawlspace with poly and have it run under the concrete and no I don't think you will need dimple board if all this works out.


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## jmr106 (Feb 8, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Once the furnace and tank a moved you could let it flood once and see where the high water  level.



I'm pretty confident that with 2 days of heavy rain, if nothing was in the hole to damage and I let it flood, it would likely go up to the top of the bricks. Did the math on that hole capacity about a month or two ago. Somewhere around 1,300 gallons to the top of the bricks. The ground level outside is somewhere around 6 inches higher than the top of the bricks inside, so they didn't even do that right. If I let it flood, I wouldn't be too surprised if it flooded over the top of the bricks and started running into the dirt behind the wall. That and the stories my mother has talked about with it flooding up to the top of the wall (when there was no system and just a water heater) when my father dealt with it. I'm expecting some sump flow still, even after I fill it in. There isn't a lot of pressure behind the walls, I think it just runs out fast because it builds up a foot deep or more in the walls. I'd like to fill the bricks with gravel and seal the top of them flat. Even if there is sump flow, the worry will be gone of it flooding the equipment. I would fill the whole thing in with dirt, but that wall would certainly make everything flood and it seems evident that we need a low point and sump to get moisture away from the house.


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## nealtw (Feb 8, 2016)

Just a few points,
The water will never fill to to top of the hole and run over to the dirt, as the water on the out side of the wall will be at the same level, it would just be flooded.
With that in mind and you may be right, I would set the pump up to where you would like to have it set when you are done. The system should work as planned with or with out the gravel, although I can not imagine why it wouldn't work.
It is hard to say what came first there may have a pump there before the dug out for the water heater. Hopefully it was dry before but who knows.
Normally the crawlspace is lower that the landscape around the house, Part of the problem you have it the dirt around the house isn't high enough, it should have been raised and sloped away from the house. That wouldn't stop an underground stream or a spring but it would have moved rain water away from the house.
If the house was built today the outside of the foundation would have been waterproofed up to about 8" from the brick, drainage would have been installed at the bottom off the foundation and it would have been back filled.
The crawlspace would have been 4 ft deep. Even if that was done at your house, it wouldn't have helped when they dug that hole they would have been below the perimeter drain anyway.


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## nealtw (Feb 8, 2016)

If moving the gravel sounds like a big job, look into a rental for a small conveyor system.
https://www.accessconstructionequipment.com/products/conveyors.html


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## jmr106 (Feb 8, 2016)

I'm planning to use the gravel so that I can cement the top of it when I am done and seal the basin in so that it won't have a chance to move around much in the gravel. I doubt that it would anyway, but I'd like to have that cement barrier between. I theoretically could just leave the open hole, but I'm not too fond of all of that moisture running across the floor. It has been doing it for a long, long time, of course. It messes with the humidity in the house and at certain times of the year you have to fight white powdery mildew when you first see it on something and not let it take hold anywhere.

The plus side of all of that gravel will be that it will filter the dirt and debris out of the water so that the sump basin should have pretty clean water in it. Dirty water certain affects the longevity of the pump. 

I'm wondering if they didn't have that pump before the crawlspace was dug out. I can't figure out why they didn't put in a proper basin. I don't know, maybe the codes were different back then and didn't require it. The inspector that checked the house certainly wasn't very thorough and missed a lot.


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## nealtw (Feb 8, 2016)

I lived in a house with a flood basement much like yours and we just poked a hole in the concrete and dug a hole and set the pump in, no inspections. I don't think we even thought about permits or inspections.
We had open ditches at the road and it went about 200 yds and under a main road but the culvert wasn't deep enough. When they raised that main road, my mother spent hours on the phone talking to engineers about lowering the culvert. They assured her that is was at three feet now and it will be a 6 ft when they are done. He forgot to mention they were raising the road 5 ft. After that the pumps were running almost 24/7 all winter,and that's when we just pumped it into the sewer line.


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## slownsteady (Feb 8, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> I'm planning to use the gravel so that I can cement the top of it when I am done and seal the basin in so that it won't have a chance to move around much in the gravel. I doubt that it would anyway, but I'd like to have that cement barrier between. ...



I am sure you would want access to the pump and maybe the pit in general, so I'm hoping you don't mean to cement it all in. The gravel isn't going to move, so put that worry aside. BTW, makes sure you get the recommended type of gravel for drainage; there are many grades and some may pack too tight to be helpful. 
If you fill the trench up to ground level, you can cover your whole crawlspace with plastic sheeting, which is recommended anyway, so your gravel bed will still be protected from debris.


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## jmr106 (Feb 8, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> I am sure you would want access to the pump and maybe the pit in general, so I'm hoping you don't mean to cement it all in. The gravel isn't going to move, so put that worry aside. BTW, makes sure you get the recommended type of gravel for drainage; there are many grades and some may pack too tight to be helpful.
> If you fill the trench up to ground level, you can cover your whole crawlspace with plastic sheeting, which is recommended anyway, so your gravel bed will still be protected from debris.


 
I just mean around the top of the basin. The lid and such will still be removable, the pumps accessible, etc.


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## nealtw (Feb 8, 2016)

like this.


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## jmr106 (Feb 9, 2016)

Yeah, like that second photo. The cement would only go around the outside edge of the top of the sump basin (not over the actual lid, but just the little exposed outside part poking out of the gravel. Theoretically, the basin would stick up just enough out of the gravel for the thickness of cement to be flush with the top of the basin. I'm not sure whether the cement should actually touch the outside of the basin itself. I don't imagine that it would take much work to break that little bit of cement around the edges if anyone wanted to move the basin in the future, however.


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## nealtw (Feb 10, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Yeah, like that second photo. The cement would only go around the outside edge of the top of the sump basin (not over the actual lid, but just the little exposed outside part poking out of the gravel. Theoretically, the basin would stick up just enough out of the gravel for the thickness of cement to be flush with the top of the basin. I'm not sure whether the cement should actually touch the outside of the basin itself. I don't imagine that it would take much work to break that little bit of cement around the edges if anyone wanted to move the basin in the future, however.



With a sealed unit like that they put them in so the top is about 1 inch below the concrete top surface and dig out gravel so the concrete is about 6" right around the sump, I thing the height has more to do with where the pipes enter the pump, but if you are just using the perforated one. Level should work, don't worry about the next guy. What you are doing should be good for 25 years anyway.


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## jmr106 (Apr 23, 2016)

I'm still getting other estimates from smaller contractors, but so far it seems like nobody wants to flip that furnace and make the adjustments for under $2,000. Kind of feels like I'm hitting my head against the wall with each estimate. 

I'm not going to give up just yet. But part of me is getting to the point of leaving that system where it is  and calling them out one more time to switch out those silly styrofoam blocks supporting it for something that will last a lot longer. Fill the floor with as much gravel as possible (wouldn't be over a foot or so), up to a little below the system. It would keep it from being a muddy mess, at least. Install the quiet submersible pumps and a sump basin in the gravel, upgrade the pump pipes and leave it be. Still elevate the water heater, of course. It is just so dumb that they put it in there like that. This isn't working out as well as I had hoped.


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## slownsteady (Apr 25, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> I'm still getting other estimates from smaller contractors, but so far it seems like nobody wants to flip that furnace and make the adjustments for under $2,000. Kind of feels like I'm hitting my head against the wall with each estimate.
> 
> I'm not going to give up just yet. But part of me is getting to the point of leaving that system where it is  and calling them out one more time to switch out those silly styrofoam blocks supporting it for something that will last a lot longer. Fill the floor with as much gravel as possible (wouldn't be over a foot or so), up to a little below the system. It would keep it from being a muddy mess, at least. Install the quiet submersible pumps and a sump basin in the gravel, upgrade the pump pipes and leave it be. Still elevate the water heater, of course. It is just so dumb that they put it in there like that. This isn't working out as well as I had hoped.


I just generally agreed with you, on the other thread. I'm still resisting the gravel because it will displace water making the level higher to start with. Sure, the water will flow through the rocks, but put some water in a bucket, add some rocks; the water level will rise.


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## jmr106 (Apr 26, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> I just generally agreed with you, on the other thread. I'm still resisting the gravel because it will displace water making the level higher to start with. Sure, the water will flow through the rocks, but put some water in a bucket, add some rocks; the water level will rise.



It is looking like I have no choice but to go to plan B. I was asking various HVAC workers on some other forums and some of them said, "They put that system in for $4,380?!? Who are they?? I need them to install mine! I can't even do it for that little amount!"   Everyone is recommending a full tear-out and replacement. Even the in-person quotes. Essentially starting over. Many have said, "I'm not touching that" even for $2,000 to $3,000 price tags. Vibration concerns of sitting it on top of the wall. Vibration/buckling concerns of hanging it from the floor. Many HVAC techs are saying that getting some general contractor for less money might cause them to take a shortcut that could spew carbon monoxide all in the basement and house. I need a plan B. This has "fail" written all over it. The furnace is supposed to be good for 15 years according to the installers. I'm totally giving up on moving it. I'm not seeking any more quotes to move it. 

First things: Furnace still needs to be elevated as-is (same height) on "something" more solid than those taped-together styro blocks that they have it on. Some type of moisture barrier placed between the furnace and what it will sit on. Very curious as to how to pull this off with the current furnace weight on it. Wondering if the company that put it in will send some people out to either temporarily hold it up in place while something else is put under it or if they can temporarily strap it from the floor joist or something. There's no question that will have to be done. Gravel and water won't work with styro blocks. The company that put it in didn't seem too concerned with changing them. I may have to have another company do it. Their elevator doesn't seem to go to the top.

I've got $3,000 saved. Current list of thoughts/questions for a plan B:

Holes drilled in the base and/or lower middle of the wall to help the water not take forever to come out. I have no idea how big I should drill the holes to be. That may be why the pump comes on for days after a lot of rain. A large amount held back in the dirt by the wall's limited output of cracks, crevices and the sideways-turned cinderblocks (many of which may be blocked by washed-down dirt). The side with the highest open flow out of the actual base cinderblock is to the left of the water heater on the floor. Nothing notable seems to come out of the other sideways cinderblocks.

Unsure thought: I'm not sure how much flow I'll unleash (in the next big stall-out rain system lasting 3-4 days, for instance) by drilling holes all the way around the wall, either. Yet I have to do that before putting up any sheet drain. The thought has been entertained that when gravel is brought in for the floor, enough to also fill in all of the cinderblock holes to the top would be ordered. Fill it nearly to the top and cement over it with inches of cement, all the way across the top of the wall. This should keep any dirt from washing out of the wall or help prevent blocking holes that are drilled, since the gravel would be a barrier in between the dirt and the holes in the wall. Also, bugs/spiders wouldn't have anywhere to live in the wall. In the near future, I'm going to fumigate that whole basement with several Raid smokers. I've seen black widow spiders in the base of that wall. Not risking a bite while working. Too many creepy-crawly everythings down there due to the moisture.

Dimple board (sheet drain) surrounding the inside of the wall. I need to figure out what the highest quality, thicker dimple board is. 

Questions about dimple board: Screwed to the wall? Nails won't work on those crumbly-like cinderblocks. They're solid, but I can tell they aren't nailing material. What keeps the attachment points of dimple board from leaking water? Some sort of rubber washers around the screws?

Possibly dig the sump hole deeper before adding gravel and a basin, to give water a little more room to go under the gravel and basin. I'm actually wondering just how much dirt has washed down into that hole everywhere. There's at least inches of dirt over by the water heater. When I put in the second (temporary) pedestal pump, I dug down about a foot deep or more into solid red clay. They didn't even have a "hole" there (or maybe the dirt washed in and filled it over the years). Just the pedestal pump sitting on top of almost-flat dirt. It was scary looking. Should I try to dig down and find what "should" be a cement bottom in the areas all over the hole floor and get as much dirt as possible out? I have no idea how deep it would be. It "may" give more room and make the other stuff appear elevated simply because I dug out around everything. That's a lot of work, for sure. I'd have to just try to pack it behind the wall or something. 

Type of gravel: Is 3/4" dustless crushed best? Would cementing over the gravel be inviting disaster in case water went on top of the cement somehow (say, a water heater failure or any number of issues) and the water couldn't reach what would be the sealed sump lid?

The biggest sump basin that I can find is probably not going to be over 24" x 30" deep and some of those look like they want $400 for a thick garbage can basically. I'd prefer it to be already perforated. The highest basin capacity average seems to be 22 gallons. That's a far cry from the current 60 gallon or so open pit that fills to the top and gets pumped out at once (takes 1.5 minutes for that 1/3HP pedestal to pump it out). 

The pumps that I put in will be submersible. I'm already sold on Ion Storm Pro's for their ability to move tons of water with very low amps. Good for the overall power bill, but even better for backup if power is lost. 4.6 running amps per 1/3HP, kicking out 3,330 GPH per pump. So two 1/3HP could get rid of about 111 gallons per minute. Pondering whether one of them should be a 1/2HP just in case the flow is a little higher and faster than expected due to the extra space that the gravel will take up and the smaller basin to pump from. A single pump like the 1/3HP could run every 3 minutes for about 20 hours on a good marine battery if the power failed. Backup battery system (Pump Sentry) will step up the voltage of the battery to power the main pump(s). Water flow is far too high for a water-powered backup pump. 

Crawlspace door will be rebuilt (I can do that myself). After it is ripped out, I'm going to pour about a 3" high/thick cement ledge across the bottom of the door. The new door will be built 3" shorter and fit closely on top of that. Still plenty of room to get in, but the ledge will keep the water out. Making a drain outside of the door and punching a hose through that wall into the hole for water flow (a previous idea) would be nearly impossible.

All gutters are going to be replaced (I can do that myself) and have long extensions placed on them. I see drips in the gutter seams and the old (single piece of) wood behind the gutter is making the gutters sag below the shingle runoff point in a lot of areas. Confirmed that water is missing the gutter near the basement door, for instance. That's the corner closest to where this hole is.

Whew. :hide: This is going to be a lovely project (not). That's a lot of questions and a lot of work. Hopefully different people can chime in and pick apart some of those questions. Way too many questions for one person to tackle, but I have a ton of stuff to figure out in a fairly short time (before the big summer storm systems and tropical storms kick up again). Most of that I can do myself.


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## nealtw (Apr 26, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> First things: Furnace still needs to be elevated as-is (same height) on "something" more solid than those taped-together styro blocks that they have it on. Some type of moisture barrier placed between the furnace and what it will sit on. Very curious as to how to pull this off with the current furnace weight on it.



The furnace appears to be on four sets of blocks.
Lifting one corner at a time.
A stack of 2x4 blocks under one corner until you are really close to the height and slide a tapered wedge under the furnace until you have freed one set of blocks..
Match the height of the new blocks with CMU like the wall and maybe bricks what ever will make the height right. also add the poly on top of the new concrete make that bigger than the furnace foot print so you will be able to tape it to the poly or what ever goes just under the concrete later.
If you can't get the height quit right, get close add poly and finish with plywood squares above the poly. remove shim and move around furnace to next spot and repeat. With the poly bunched up, you should be able to do it one piece.


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## nealtw (Apr 26, 2016)

The same can be done with the water tank


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## nealtw (Apr 26, 2016)

You made a good point about drilling more holes may increase the water flow. If you think about it, this has been running for years and it is like you have an underground river that has pushed the dirt out of it's way. Perhaps just gravel poly and concrete.

Then we get into the question that I don't think we have an answer for.
*If* you stopped pumping is there a high water mark where the water quits getting higher. Having a deeper sump only helps for a place to catch dirt or hold more water.
The more water only helps if you are pumping it down to today's level.
If there is a high water mark then you would set the pump just below floor level and let the lower water take care of itself.
Thoughts?


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## jmr106 (Apr 26, 2016)

nealtw said:


> You made a good point about drilling more holes may increase the water flow. If you think about it, this has been running for years and it is like you have an underground river that has pushed the dirt out of it's way. Perhaps just gravel poly and concrete.
> 
> Then we get into the question that I don't think we have an answer for.
> *If* you stopped pumping is there a high water mark where the water quits getting higher. Having a deeper sump only helps for a place to catch dirt or hold more water.
> ...




Drilling more holes might increase the water flow, but to me it also gives it a head start from the beginning for the water to get out immediately and be pumped away before it backs up a lot behind the wall. 

The higher water mark isn't officially known. I'm assuming that if pumping stopped, it would flood as high as it could up to the top of the wall or whatever height matches the pressure of the water table. My father kept repeating the same boring thing of trying to get by with a 1/3HP when I was a kid. It would always overtop the pump and/or the power would be lost. I just know of the stories that he went down to "find the water up to the top of the bricks". I'm going to assume that's true.

My solution now is not really to stop the water. It can't be stopped. Just to keep it dry with brute force pumping and make it look and function a little better down there. Once I put the sheet drain up, I can't really do anything else to drill more holes, so I'd rather just have it done already and see what happens. Maybe throw a 1/2HP down there with the 1/3HP just for good measure. The minimum sump basin size for the 1/2HP is something like 18" x 22", so it wouldn't really be overkill.


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## nealtw (Apr 26, 2016)

Rent a hammer drill with a 10" long 1" concrete bit. We discussed dimple board when you were going to just raise the floor a few inches, I think. Now I think you could just put in the gravel cover that and up and over the walls with the poly and go with the concrete.


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## jmr106 (Apr 26, 2016)

I don't feel too bad about the water flow after seeing a guy's video of their makeshift sump. Their house was built about 6 years ago and is new. In the basement, they have this huge metallic sump basin that appears to be made of some kind of drainage pipe. It probably holds 200+ gallons. They have two pipes coming from the weeping tile and a third from somewhere else, and during their snow melts (it is obviously up north somewhere) and heavy rains, they have 3 pipes dumping huge amounts of water into the basin. So much that their 1/3HP and 1/2HP couldn't keep up with both continuously running. After 2 floods, their builder installed something like a 400GPM pump in addition to the other pumps. The others run continuously, while the big one kicks on every minute or so. Very scary. I saw what looked like 300 gallons per minute pouring in from all pipes just from a snow melt. 

So that made me feel a little better that at least we're not the only ones dealing with such a thing.


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## nealtw (Apr 26, 2016)

Some one else's misery always makes us feel better.


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## jmr106 (Apr 27, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Some one else's misery always makes us feel better.




Yeah, I suppose it does. So I'm going to put sheet drain on the walls first to redirect the water, then put the gravel. Poly goes down on top of gravel and then a coat of about 3" of cement on top of that. 

How do I get the poly to go "around" the system and water heater to cover the floor without cutting a hole in the poly? Can't really lift the system up. Also, leaving the water heater out for x days to put the gravel down first. How would I accomplish this? Just leave the valves turned off and the gas capped or something? If the water heater is put back on top of the cement, how strong would the 3" of cement be? Is it going to start breaking up with the water heater or elevating blocks on top of it, or if the gravel shifts around under the cement? The valves look newer (probably installed it when they last put the water heater in), but it would take a while to get around to doing this. 

Someone told me that those blocks holding the system up appear to be heat pump spacing blocks. They said that they are not simply  packing material, but are used to raise slabs for package units, and not to wouldn't worry about them holding up for the next 10 years. Not sure what to think about that. Think I should just gravel around them as-is?


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## nealtw (Apr 27, 2016)

They use foam instead of gravel to build the roads to hwy overpasses.
Gravel will not move or shift under the concrete, it really has no place to go.
https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p....etres-wide-and-50-metres-long.1000181212.html
Tuck tape is the right stuff for poly and that tape will also stick to the foam and I doubt the foam is wicking water.
When you tape poly also try to get 12" of over lap. Run the poly out over the wall onto the dirt a few feet, I a perfect world you would cover all the dirt with poly.
With the gravel you really don't need the dimple board any more.


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## nealtw (Apr 27, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Yeah, I suppose it does. So I'm going to put sheet drain on the walls first to redirect the water, then put the gravel. Poly goes down on top of gravel and then a coat of about 3" of cement on top of that.
> 
> How do I get the poly to go "around" the system and water heater to cover the floor without cutting a hole in the poly? Can't really lift the system up. Also, leaving the water heater out for x days to put the gravel down first. How would I accomplish this? Just leave the valves turned off and the gas capped or something? If the water heater is put back on top of the cement, how strong would the 3" of cement be? Is it going to start breaking up with the water heater or elevating blocks on top of it, or if the gravel shifts around under the cement? The valves look newer (probably installed it when they last put the water heater in), but it would take a while to get around to doing this.
> 
> Someone told me that those blocks holding the system up appear to be heat pump spacing blocks. They said that they are not simply  packing material, but are used to raise slabs for package units, and not to wouldn't worry about them holding up for the next 10 years. Not sure what to think about that. Think I should just gravel around them as-is?


Yes 3" slab of concrete will support the water tank.


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## slownsteady (Apr 27, 2016)

> https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.r...000181212.html
> Tuck tape is the right stuff for poly and that tape will also stick to the foam and I doubt the foam is wicking water.



Appears to be called _sheathing tape_ south of the border.


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## nealtw (Apr 27, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Appears to be called _sheathing tape_ south of the border.



Only for those that read the label:trophy:


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## jmr106 (Apr 29, 2016)

I have looked at a variety of suppliers for sheet drain/dimple board. I see some that comes in about half of an inch thickness. It seems to vary. Is there any particular thickness that I should be looking for in this application?

Granted, these are just for an example and not where I would necessarily buy from. A lot of home improvement stores don't seem to carry rolls of this stuff.  

I see things like these...

http://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=21065&gclid=CPSp7Iuks8wCFUMlgQodoCICiQ

http://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=16672


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## nealtw (Apr 29, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> I have looked at a variety of suppliers for sheet drain/dimple board. I see some that comes in about half of an inch thickness. It seems to vary. Is there any particular thickness that I should be looking for in this application?
> 
> Granted, these are just for an example and not where I would necessarily buy from. A lot of home improvement stores don't seem to carry rolls of this stuff.
> 
> ...


That is the stuff.


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## slownsteady (Apr 29, 2016)

Didn't find it at HD. 
Lowes had this: Hanes Geo Components 50-ft x 4-ft Polypropylene Sheet Drain   Item #: 204109 |  Model #: 38612 

The J-Drain stuff is similar. The site you linked to had specifics for flow rate, etc.


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## jmr106 (Apr 30, 2016)

I don't really understand the reason why some sheet drain costs hundreds for a similar 4' x 50' roll and others are $125 and up, and everywhere in between. I would expect the half of an inch thicker type to cost more, but I find that the thinner quarter inch types actually cost more. I would think that the thicker it is, the better. So probably at least around half of an inch.

Just to be curious, I was in a Home Depot earlier today and asked the guy if they sell it. He didn't even really know what I was talking about, even after I showed him a photo and explained what it was for, called it by sheet drain/dimple board/drain board. I'll probably just order it online and save a trip halfway across the county to find it at a building supply place. When he asked what I was going to use it for, he suggested that maybe there is a crack/hole in the old foundation drain somewhere. I may never know what is causing the water flow, but I do know that digging the entire foundation up all the way around the house would be an absolutely enormous undertaking and not worth doing. If there is an old drain system around the house that is broken, then even regrading the land wouldn't do much when the ground is saturated in heavy rains. 

I'm going to keep pushing to find someone to hang that furnace permanently. As for the water heater, I prefer to keep it inside. I could try to get some type of building put outside and have the pipes run outside, but in the end trying to insulate the building, insulate what would then be open water pipes, etc...that would be another headache that I don't need.


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