# Bad Well Pump or Something Else?



## 1victorianfarmhouse (Nov 11, 2016)

This morning I woke up and had no water pressure.  It was maybe in the mid thirties outside, we haven't had a real frost in the Chicago area yet.

Last night I thought the water pressure was a little low, but didn't check anything.  I used and flushed the toilet a couple of times in the night, but both bowls and tanks were full this morning.  There have been a few times in the past where the chain got doubled over on itself and drained the water supply, but once fixed all was well, no pun intended.  No leaks anywhere, and both outside hoses are turned off.

I checked the breakers for the well pump, flipped them back and forth, and they seem to be fine.  No electrical issues anywhere in the house.  

The pressure gauge at the tank registered zero, and tonight it still registers zero, with no fluctuating.  I used a tire gauge to check the pressure at the fitting on the top of the tank, and it showed 18 psi.  

So, am I correct in guessing the well pump is the culprit instead of low tank pressure?  I think it was installed in 1993, according to some writing on the pressure tank.  Then there is more writing on the tank from 2005 that says 1hp, set 228' and a decal stating it is a Franklin Electric 1hp pump.  

If it is the pump, I am thinking I might be able to replace it myself, as I have easy access to the well cap, along with a portable engine hoist and chains, etc.  Might need a T-handle from what I read?

Fortunately I have several gallons of water stashed to get me by.

Comments from the experts always welcome!

Vince


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## 1victorianfarmhouse (Nov 12, 2016)

I've been doing some research on well failures, and none of the symptoms mentioned were happening.  The well just stopped pumping with no real warning signs, and the pump does not cycle on and off like usual.  I've attached a picture of the control box with the cover removed, in case it's of any interest, and the pressure gauge can be seen in the background.  Tomorrow I'll check the voltages at the control box and see what I can see inside the well head.  Of course, comments are welcome as I am new to this aspect of well diagnosis.

Thanks!

vince


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## oldognewtrick (Nov 12, 2016)

I'd suggest testing voltage before you start throwing parts at it.


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## JoeD (Nov 12, 2016)

You won't see anything looking down the well except some wires and pipe.
Start by checking for voltage on the switch input and output. A quick simple test would be a small tap on the switch. It might get it going if the switch is stuck.


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## 1victorianfarmhouse (Nov 12, 2016)

Interesting.  So I went and got my digital meter, set it to the 200Vac scale.

From two separate outlets, I get almost 120v with the red lead in the small side and the black lead on the larger side.

At the breaker panel, I have two breaker positions listed for the Well, but only one switch.  Opening the box up, I can clearly see the black wire goes to the position with no switch.  The white wire goes to the position with the switch.  I check with a screwdriver to see if the screws are tight.  The black one is tight, but the white one can be tightened about a quarter turn.  This does not make an immediate difference.

In the control box I have four wires.  Red and black from outside (well pump), and white and black from inside (house).

With the breakers off, I don't get any readings at the control box.

With the breakers on, at the control box I get about 77-78 v from the red and black wires (pump), and 1__ v from the white and black wires (house).  Yes, that is a 1 in the far left position with no numerals in any of the other spaces to the right of the 1.

So, any interesting conclusions, or should I maybe move this to the Electrical forum?

Thanks!

Vince


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## beachguy005 (Nov 12, 2016)

What do you mean by..." I have two breaker positions listed for the Well, but only one switch"?


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## 1victorianfarmhouse (Nov 12, 2016)

Joe, thanks for the suggestion.  I did try rapping on the switch with a metal wrench in several areas, and the needle on the gauge bounced a bit from the impact, but nothing happened.  Maybe it will cycle on but so far it has not.  I have never looked inside the well head, and now my curiosity is piqued, but I do doubt if I'll find anything useful.

Beach, I hope the attached picture explains what I mean.  The white wire goes to the top breaker with the switch tab, the black wire goes to the position below it with no switch tab.

Vince


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## beachguy005 (Nov 12, 2016)

As I thought. You have a 2 pole breaker that controls both poles with that one toggle.  Turn the breaker off, then back on.  Check the voltage from each screw terminal to ground and you should get 120 volts + -, at each pole. That will tell you if the breaker is good.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 12, 2016)

In photo #7, that is a 2 pole, 240V breaker and with it in the on position, and your meter in a range above 200VAC and attached to the white and black conductors you should read 240V.

In photo #2 with your meter in the same range and attached to the right/white conductor and the left/black conductor, you should have the same voltage reading.


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## 1victorianfarmhouse (Nov 12, 2016)

Thanks, Beach!  I think we may have hit on the problem.  I've tried switching the breaker on and off a few times, but with no luck.  

I took the multi-meter and put the black probe in a ground terminal of a nearby socket, and the red probe on the red and then the white screws at the switch.  I got 118 volts at each.  To try the opposite, I put the red probe in the positive terminal of the socket, and with the black probe in the negative terminal and got 115v.  I then put the black probe on the two black wires at the switch, and with the red probe in the positive terminal of the socket, no voltage registered.

Snoony, thanks!  I did as you suggested and read 237v with the multi-meter on the 600Vac scale and the breaker in the on position.  With the breaker in the off position, no voltage.  

So it does indeed sound like the breaker is bad.  I've just watched a video of how to replace a breaker, sounds easy.  

I'll wait until I see your replies before I high-tail it to the local hardware store...

Thanks!

Vince


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## beachguy005 (Nov 12, 2016)

With the breaker in the on position just measure, using either probes, between the screw terminal on the breaker in the panel and the ground bar in the panel.  Check both poles.  If you're getting 120 volts on each pole the breaker would be good.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 12, 2016)

Actually, it sounds like the breaker is in proper working order, so if you are going to replace it, save the receipt.


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## 1victorianfarmhouse (Nov 12, 2016)

Okay, so I can't access the ground bar, but can put the negative probe on some clean metal on the box.  With that, I read 119v from both the white wire screw and the black wire screw.  

So if the breaker is good, but I cannot get a power reading at the switch, would it be something in the wiring?  It's Romex all over, but a quick check didn't show any damage that would prevent current from getting through.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 12, 2016)

See note #2 of post #9.


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## 1victorianfarmhouse (Nov 12, 2016)

Okay, I just checked and there is power getting to the switch.  In my cramped position to test the wires, I was testing the wrong black wires with the red and white wires.  So there is now 238v coming into and going out of the switch.


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## beachguy005 (Nov 12, 2016)

So the breaker is good and you have power to the pressure switch.  You may have a bad switch.  Could be blocked on the pressure side or the contacts could be bad.  I would try pushing the contacts closed to see if it runs the pump.  Use an insulated screwdriver and not your finger to close them.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 12, 2016)

So, when you say "going out", you also found a comparable voltage when reading between the inner red and black conductors?

If so, the switch is closed and the problem lies further down the line, however, before you do any more then simply, (easy for me to say), lift the motor out, either open the switch or put the breaker in the off position and when the motor is out energize it to again check voltages.


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## 1victorianfarmhouse (Nov 12, 2016)

Yes, I found comparable voltage between the inner red and black connections. 

I did open the switch, held it open for a few moments and let it (the contacts on top) spring close again.   Didn't seem to do anything that I could feel, but I noticed the pressure gauge was reading about 5 psi instead of zero when I was done.  It's still at 5 psi half an hour later.  

Are the switch contacts supposed to stay open or closed?  I recall the pump did not automatically start pumping right away if the pressure was low.  

Lifting the motor out....is that a lot more work than it sounds  , or can I just lift it up from the well head fairly easily?  Especially if the piping is plastic?  I'm trying to figure out how it disconnects from the line to the house, unless it requires a lot of digging to get down there.

Vince


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## beachguy005 (Nov 12, 2016)

The contacts are open until the pressure drops, then the contacts close and send power to the pump.  The pump runs until the set pressure is met then the contacts open and the pump stops running.
If the contacts are closed, I would think it has to mean that the pressure is low and the pump is getting voltage and not pumping.


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## 1victorianfarmhouse (Nov 12, 2016)

Thanks, just wanted to clarify.  Makes sense.  I am watching videos of removing pumps.....

Is the pump usually bad and need replacing, or is it a case of it probably needing cleaning?


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## beachguy005 (Nov 12, 2016)

That I can't say.  I've only worked on shallow well pumps that were mounted on the holding tank.  Could be bad, could be blocked.  Lot's of work on your end.  It might be worth while to have someone experienced with your system check it out before you pull the pump up.  In any case, make sure to turn the power off when you work on it.


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## EdInKentucky (Nov 12, 2016)

hi 1vic,

above you wrote ...
"With the breakers on, at the control box I get about 77-78 v from the red and black wires (pump), and 1__ v from the white and black wires (house). "

I just joined this forum and you're my first victim .. 

Sounds to me like voltage is getting from the breaker to the pressure control switch ok ... but it's not getting past the switch to the pump.

To test the pump motor electrically, from where the pressure control is, you could ..
turn off the breaker
remove from the pressure switch, the black and red wires that go to the pump
make sure the battery in your multimeter is good
set your multimeter on "ohms" or "continuity" at one of its lower ranges
touch the meter's probes to the red and black wires going to the pump

the meter should show a certain amount of "resistance" .. probably 50 ohms to 300 ohms.  I'm guessing about those figures, though.  If the motor and the wiring leading to it are ok, there will be some kind of reading.

if the meter shows nothing (infinity, hundreds of thousands of ohms, or resistance is off the scale) .. electricity is not moving through the wires and the pump motor .. telling us that a wire is broken or burned, an electrical connection to the pump (hopefully above ground) has failed, the the pump motor has failed, or the thermal protector device on the pump motor has failed.

If the pump passes these tests, I'd look next at the pressure control switch.

thx,
Ed


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## JoeD (Nov 12, 2016)

Do the wires from the switch go directly down the well or do they go to a control box first? Many 240 volt well pumps have a control box with a capacitor and relay for starting the pump.
You should have 240 volts on white black coming from the breaker and 240 volts on the red black leaving to the pump.


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## 1victorianfarmhouse (Nov 12, 2016)

Hi Joe,  The wires go to a switch box in my basement, then from there they go to the well.  I do have 240 volts going to and from the switch.  so it looks like I'm going to be removing the pump to check it out.

Thanks,

Vince


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## JoeD (Nov 13, 2016)

Take the cap off the well and turn on the breaker. Listen down the well for noise. The pipe could broken or cracked and spraying all the water back in the well.


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## bud16415 (Nov 13, 2016)

Vince

Do you know how deep your well is? You will be lifting the pump and the torque arrestor and all the wire and pipe full of water. The depth will determine If you can DIY or if you will need a couple helpers or even a machine to help pull.


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## Speedbump (Nov 13, 2016)

If you can access the wires in the well at the cap, check them for 230 volts.  I have seen many times the wire underground getting damaged and killing the pump.  Also make sure that all you have is a Red, Black and possibly a Green wire.  If you have a yellow wire, there may be a control box somewhere that you haven't found.  What your calling a control box is in fact the pressure switch.  You asked if the points should be open or closed.  When the pump is below the shut off pressure the points are closed.  When it reaches it's shutoff pressure, they will re open.

Pulling a pump that is hung below 200' is going to be a job to say the least.  A lot will depend on whether it's hung on galvanized pipe (usually 1-1/4" or 1") or PVC or poly pipe.  That's a lot of weight the pipe plus the water that is in them.


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## 1victorianfarmhouse (Nov 13, 2016)

Lots of great responses, thank you so much!

I'm just getting back online for the night and now I'll be running out in the morning to test the wires for voltage at the cap.  There was 240v at the black and red wires at the switch when the breaker was closed.

From what I can see written on the pressure tank, the most recent listing is for a 1 HP pump in 2005, and the depth is 228'.  I agree that it's a big effort to take it out, and even though I have an engine hoist I could use to lift it, it's still a lot of work and I'd hate to run into any unexpected issues.  I will be calling people tomorrow and see who I can get that will pull it and let me get a new pump (if needed, probably) and probably put it back together myself.

A look under the cap, I didn't see any rope, just a red and black wire going into a blue sheath that went down as far as I could see and a short length of green wire not connected to anything.  I hung a light down as far as the hose that leads to the house, and did not see any water or anything else that looked wrong.  Even though the breaker was on and the the pressure switch closed, I didn't hear any humming or noise.  

The pipe is probably poly, as the only galvanized pipe I've found was in the basement, very old and leaking, and is no longer here.

Ed, with the tester on the 2000 Ohms scale, and the red and black wires disconnected from the pressure control switch, I got steady readings of 007 and 008 with the red probe on the red wire, and the black probe on the black wire.  

Whew!  Thanks again for all the great commentary!

Vince


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## Speedbump (Nov 14, 2016)

Check either wire to ground or to the casing if it's metal.  Hopefully you will read more than 50,000 ohms.  If less than that, the pump will have to come out as it's grounded.  The reading between them is about right with all the wire you have going down the well.  This also tells you that the winding's are not open.  This is a good thing.


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## 1victorianfarmhouse (Nov 14, 2016)

Okay, I just checked, and with the breaker on and the switch closed, I am getting 240v at the wires at the pump.  So, for whatever reason, the pump is not working with 240v coming to it.


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## Speedbump (Nov 14, 2016)

That could be the overload causing it not to do anything.  Then when it closes, the overload of the motor trips it out again immediately.  They are automatic reset.  If that is the case, I don't know for sure how you would have gotten the 007 ohm reading between the two wires.  Hmmmm.


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## 1victorianfarmhouse (Nov 14, 2016)

Hmm, could the motor be seized or clogged?  The 007 reading I got between the two wires was definite, I tested them three times.  The pump seems to have stopped with little or no warning, I don't know what is typical for these types of electric pumps.  There is a decal on the pressure tank for a 1 hp Franklin pump, that may be it.


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## Speedbump (Nov 14, 2016)

The decal could be it or from a previous install.  Yes they do seize up.  Generally the motor not the pump.  If that's the case, it will try to start, then the overload will kick it out for a minute or more depending on how hot it gets.  Then it tries again.  You probably wouldn't hear or feel anything with a pump hung that deep.  Keep in mind that 7 years is average life for a sub.  If you could hear the overload tripping or if you had an amp meter and monitored when it tripped, you could disconnect the pump wires real fast and see if you still get the James Bond reading.  If not, that tells you the overload has tripped.


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## JoeD (Nov 14, 2016)

Sounds like you are going to be pulling it no matter what.
A clamp on ammeter would tell you if the pump is trying to run, or is running and not pumping.
It could be that the sediment level has risen in the well and the pump is now buried. I don't remember but have you checked the water level in the well? Could the well be dry?


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## 1victorianfarmhouse (Nov 15, 2016)

Speedbump...The decal is curiously placed right above the notation and date of a 1 HP pump installed  The other dates that indicate a pump install are written on other parts of the tank.  We'll find out sooner or later....

Joe....You brought up a question I wondered about, is it the pump or the well?   Just how to tell?  I have seen no water, but I do not know how to check the water level.  I have not had any problems with the pump running too much, even though it has not rained here in a week (I've had no problems in past much drier times).  The pump worked fine the night before, even filling the toilet tanks after late night flushes, then was totally dead in the morning and hasn't changed in four days now.

I have a local well guy coming over to look at it tomorrow or Wednesday, as his schedule allows.  

Thanks, again for the very useful info!

Vince


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## JoeD (Nov 15, 2016)

Drop a line down the well with something that floats on the end of it. That will give you the water level. Drop a line down the well with a weight that sinks. That will give you the bottom of the well.


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## Speedbump (Nov 15, 2016)

Good luck, hopefully he can find something simple and save you having to pull the pump.


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## 1victorianfarmhouse (Nov 15, 2016)

Update, I had two guys from a local company come out and test the pump to see if was working, and they confirmed that the overload was tripping.  I had them pull the pump.  With their truck with boom, they made it look easy (and to their credit, they were very organized).  The pump was below 225' and the depth of the well, according to the labeling on the pressure tank, is 235'.  There was quite a bit of rusty sludge in the lower sections of the well.

The pump was definitely not working, and it appears it may have been overheating.  The last threaded section of the piping that screwed into the pump was deformed (picture attached).  

The old pump was a Berkeley, Model S10SP4E02J-04 1HP, 10 GPM 2 wire 60 HZ 1 Phase.

Now the question will be to get a replacement (Speedbump...), and see how well it pumps.  There is the question as to whether the well is deep enough, as they've had to drill a few others deeper locally.  

Pictures attached....


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## Speedbump (Nov 15, 2016)

Wow, I can't believe that pump came out with the pipe looking like that.  It wouldn't have taken much more heat to make it just drop off into the obis.
If the well isn't deep enough and these guys are willing to go back into the hole, that's great because most guys wont' do that.  They should be able to tell why it got hot the way it did.

By the way, that pump looks very nice compared to most, at least you can still read the old label.


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## 1victorianfarmhouse (Nov 15, 2016)

They thought the pipe looked like that because the pump was overheating possibly due to not enough water.  What makes me wonder about that is that the pump just failed with no warning of low pressure, etc.  And it was early in the morning that I noticed the total lack of pressure.  I only used the bathroom and toilets couple of times in the evening, so not a lot of water being used in the last hours of it's life..


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## Speedbump (Nov 16, 2016)

Pumps rarely offer a warning when they are going to die.  Generally to make it worse, they go out on Saturday afternoon. 

What could have happened was the pump not shutting off because of several possible reasons.  When this happens, the water in the pump has nowhere to go and no fresh cool water is being introduced to the pump.  So the water gets up to boiling temps from friction and either nukes a couple of impellers or the pipe above the pump; or both where the water is the hottest.  This could also be what took it out.  That's where jet pumps have it over on subs.  You can generally hear them when they are running and shouldn't be.


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## 1victorianfarmhouse (Nov 16, 2016)

Thanks, Speedbump.  I was curious as I'm wondering if the well is running dry, or the pump had seized due to other reasons.  With the pump being a good 11 years old, I'd like to think it was time, and the guys who pulled it agree that it was getting old.  There was quite a bit of sludge on the lower tubes when they pulled it.

I'm hoping to have some time tonight and be able to try disassembling the old pump out of curiosity.

Vince


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## Speedbump (Nov 16, 2016)

11 Years is a good long life for one.  There isn't much to take apart on the motor, but if you can get either end of the pump unscrewed you will have a slew of impellers and diffusers.  It would be interesting to see if some of them are nuked.  Most pumps have two screws that hold the ends in place.  ((Not that they can come unscrewed by themselves))  Take them out, put the center of the pump in a large vice, take a 24" pipe wrench and try to unscrew the discharge end.  It ain't easy.


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