# Leveling subfloor for hardwood



## curtis73 (Aug 11, 2020)

This winter I cut down two massive Norway Maples.  The trunks went off to the mill and I had them cut, kiln dried, and milled T&G for flooring.  I pulled the carpet up in my house today knowing I would have to do some leveling, but I didn't expect this much.  It has a significant peak in the middle.  Using a rotating laser level, I measured down to the highest point (which is about on the 2/3rds point in the room) and got 17.25".  From there it all goes downhill.... literally.

I'll try to post a photo with my plotted measurements.  I did a CAD of my floorplan, so it should be pretty easy but it will take a hot minute.  I know it's easier to bring the rest of the floor up, but two things are preventing me from doing that:
1- why bring up 300 sf if all I need to do is take down 20 sf?
2- if I pour enough, I will lose 1.5" of my already low 82" ceilings, and it will require replacing a custom entry door.  Not cheap.... both because of the door, and all the leveling mud I would need.

Main structure was built in about 1900.  This part of the house where the bulk of the flooring is going was an addition in the 1920s.  The floor is very sturdy.  The main beam is a rough-hewn 4x8 supported by a concrete pad in the dirt crawlspace.  Subfloor is 3/4 T&G pine.

For the most part, the entire perimeter of the floor is sitting at approximately 18.25" below the line, so 1" too low.  There are two really low spots at about 18.75, but I can pour leveler in those.

How does one go about lowering a floor properly?  A bonus here is that the east edge of the subfloor doesn't go under any wall.  Since it's an addition, it just ends at a sill plate sistered onto the original foundation, so I could pull a fair amount of subfloor without really much effort.

Pics to follow.


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## curtis73 (Aug 11, 2020)

In this photo, the red-outlined area is getting the Maple.

Joists run N/S, subfloor runs E/W, maple will run N/S.  One beam runs under the highest point in the floor (shown by the zeros).  I'm relatively sure there is an additional beam, but hard to see without more demo.

As you can see, if I try to use leveling mud, I'll be filling the whole bloody floor except for one strip near the middle.  It's too much to sand down the peak, or I'll have 1/16" subfloors in the middle.

I don't mind if it slopes 1/4" from north to south, but doesn't it look to you like if I could just yank that subfloor in the middle, shave a 1/2" off the joists, and replace with some ply or OSB, I'd be good?


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## Snoonyb (Aug 11, 2020)

Welcome
Were it I, I would rent or purchase some 5ton bottle jacks, a length of 2X12 to set them on, jack up the beam, pull and cut the pier posts shorter, and be done with it.


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## curtis73 (Aug 11, 2020)

I have plenty of bottle jacks, I think my concern is access to the crawlspace.  How much of the subfloor can I remove without risking structural things happening? Can't really reach it from the basement without taking out the jack-stud wall between the foundation and a load bearing wall above it.  This type of foundation work is not really my strong suit.  I'm a theater tech director, so I build stuff that LOOKs like the real thing.  I used to work for a contractor, but that was new construction.

How much of the subfloor can I remove to get access to it without risking structural problems?  Can I just leave the sub under the exterior walls and it will be OK?  I don't mind taking out a large-ish section of it to true up the joists and replacing it with ply or OSB, but I don't want to make bad things happen.


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## slownsteady (Aug 12, 2020)

So you're saying that there is no access (or very little) to get under this addition, unless you drop in from the top through the subfloor. Not a pro here but taking out the subfloor to expose the joists sound pretty common to me.
I think I would avoid using OSB for a subfloor.


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## curtis73 (Aug 13, 2020)

Correct.  There is only about 5" in some places between the joists and the dirt.

What would you use for sub?  Ply?


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## mabloodhound (Aug 14, 2020)

Your subfloor is not a structural component.  You could remove it all if need be.  Shaving down the existing joists makes the most sense.  Trying to lower the piers would still leave you with a set crown in the joists and they might not settle down.  You definitely do not want to "mud" the floor.  Remember, it doesn't have to be perfectly "level" but just flat.


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## bud16415 (Aug 14, 2020)

I agree with @mabloodhound.



You have gone to all the trouble of having your flooring made from a tree onsite so the project is clearly a special project. I would take the entire sub flooring up and get a really clear picture of what you have below. With a dirt floor just a few inches in spots you could find any kind of damage to joist or the sub flooring you didn’t know about. Having it opened up would make all your work easier and you could also install some vapor barrier taping the joints and any additional posts and footings you may think would help. Maybe even some heat ducts that were never run or some new needed wiring etc etc.



Were the floors ever cold in that room?

Putting the new sub flooring down can then be glued and screwed and you have piece of mind of what you end up with will be good for the long run.


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## soparklion11 (Aug 14, 2020)

This:


bud16415 said:


> install some vapor barrier


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## curtis73 (Aug 15, 2020)

Thanks for all the input.

I've been working a lot on this as my back pain allows.  I have decided to pull up the entire subfloor and do things right.

The first 6' or so near the door was pretty easy.  That part was evidently an old patio and the framing is rough cut 2x6 shimmed up of the slab.  I removed all of that subfloor, trued up the joists, installed a new perimeter for screwing, and I splurged on some Advantech OSB and some good subfloor adhesive.  I have that section darn near flawless.  That whole area is now within 1/16" which meant shimming up a few areas under the joist, then adding shims to the tops of the joists in places where they dipped.

The rest of the floor is over the dirt crawlspace and I think I have a plan of attack.  The west wall is the problem area.  Old termite damage that I anticipated.  The first two joists (what I have uncovered so far) have enough damage that I am just replacing them entirely with new 2x.  I should have the rest of the sub pulled up today and I'll update more.  As far as settling down, I think I'll be in luck.  The rim joist on the west wall looks good so far, if not a little crooked as the house has settled.  That one I will basically screw a new 2x on the face.  The second one I will replace entirely.  The south wall is currently at the proper elevation, so no brainer there.  The east wall should be simple.  It is a rim sill that is nailed to the original foundation.  It appears to be sturdy, so it can be shaved.

In this photo you can see the concrete slab part with 2x6s 24" OC.  The dirt crawlspace part shows the 2x8 joists on a remarkably annoying 18" centers.  The pink are "piers" which are concrete pavers on the dirt, then a concrete block, then usually a scrap piece of 2x, 1x, or in one case 4x leftover lumber to shim up to the joist/beam.

The two western joists over the dirt are being replaced, so they will go at the correct height.  The eastern joist, the plan is to either reposition it or shave it..  Then if I cut the nails between the E/W beam and the eastern joist, the entire deck should be "hinged" on the south wall and floating on the piers.  In theory (he say hopefully), then it's just a matter of re-shimming or using some 4x4 to make stubby leg posts and reconnecting it all.


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## curtis73 (Aug 15, 2020)

picture 1 shows the pier.  Paver, block, shims.
picture 2 and 5 show one of the joists with termite damage (glad I tore into this... don't worry, it's old damage.  Termites are long gone and I treated anyway)
picture 3 is looking southeast.  I think if I cut the nails between the beam and that rim joist I can let the others drop and then shave the rim.
picture 4 looks north.  I went ahead and installed two pieces because my house is so small I have nowhere else to put my couch.


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## curtis73 (Aug 15, 2020)

One more photo just because. This shows how far I had to drop the joists over the concrete slab.


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## mabloodhound (Aug 16, 2020)

Good job.  That's how you conquer an old house.  Shims and shaving!


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## bud16415 (Aug 16, 2020)

Looks good.   

Don't forget there are many different steel hangers you can use in joining some of this new and old. 

Also this is the only chance you will have to be in this space, if there is anything you think you need to do.


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## curtis73 (Aug 16, 2020)

I have some Simpson joist hangers.  Might need more.

So I encountered two things that I would love some help with.

1) the west wall (an exterior wall) had the most sag in the floor.  I suspected termite damage from a really old infestation (none there now, and the exterminator guesses many decades old).

In this photo, you'll see what's left of a 2x4 that was nailed onto the sill and supported (somewhat oddly) with 1x down to the dirt. This was the nailer for the subfloor.  On this wall, the subfloor doesn't go under the wall for some reason... maybe a slapdash repair, who knows.  The foundation appears to be concrete, but can't really tell how thick.  Outside is lath and stucco.  The 2x8s behind the 2x4 are mostly trashed as well.  Part of me is thinking that if they're trashed, they're obviously not supporting any weight, but it seems like there are 2 or 3 of them sistered in there.  So the other part of me is thinking if there is just barely enough non-eaten wood left in them, maybe they are feebly supporting the wall, and removing them will cause the house to collapse with me in it.  How do I proceed with this corner?  Do I rip out the eaten wood and replace it?  How do I know what is supporting the wall without taking these out to see?

2) The joists on this side of the room are spaced at a frustrating 18-20".  Fine for 1x6 boards, not so great for 4x8 sheets.  I could cut all the floor sheathing to a length that matches  the spacing, but that would make one continuous seam in the middle of the room.  I could add one joist at 8' from one of the walls, but that would also make a seam the whole way across.  I could add TWO joists; one 8' from the left wall and one 8' from the right wall so I could stagger the sheathing.  What's the "right" way to do it?


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## curtis73 (Aug 16, 2020)

Took a Youtube video that might explain better


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## bud16415 (Aug 17, 2020)

Well I’m glad you took the advice to dig into it deeper.



I think you have a pretty good line on what needs done and your vid does a good job of showing what you are up against. I would be getting rid of anything that is even slightly compromised.



The big question I have is the areas where the load supporting walls are actually contacting the foundation and how blocks and shims had been added as additional support points.

I think I would be scribing a line one foot up on the walls and cutting away the drywall/plaster down to the framing to see what’s left of the sill support. At least in the areas where the bugs did a lot of damage.


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## bud16415 (Aug 17, 2020)

Additionally the places you pointed to where the shims on the blocks look to be notched into the rim joist. I don’t think they were done that way, I think it is the weight of the house compressing the bad wood and the house is lowered in that area. You can check and see if that compares to your level numbers you measured.



If you try and jack that back up or not just leveling the joists isn’t enough until you stabilize that from future movement. Sometimes correcting it back all the way isn’t the best plan because over the years other work has been done that will crack if you try lifting the house an inch or so. But you can’t let it to continue to fall more.

To me it looks like someone tried to do some of that with placing those blocks and nailing in supports and shimming etc. Only now all that looks like it is not doing much any more.


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## curtis73 (Aug 17, 2020)

Thank you.  From what I am seeing, the blocks aren't additional support, they ARE the support.  Some kind of pier/beam foundation that is supported with a paver and a block, then shimmed to height.

Here's where I really need guidance.  This drawing is an elevation view, so as if you're outside laying on the ground looking at the corner of the house.


Getting the old 2x8s out isn't an issue.  They're primarily sawdust.  My concern is that the sawdust may be providing just enough support to prevent the wall from crumbling.  I have a plan to repair it, but not support it during the repair.  Basically take it all out and replace with PT lumber, but if I take out the compromised rim joists, will I risk having the whole corner of the house fall off?  I would be removing about 12' under the E/W wall and another 12' on the N/S wall.

Can you folks take a gander at the only thing I can think of and tell me if I'm crazy?

In the next photo, the yellow would be 2x6s screwed to a stud in the wall, and under a ceiling joist or rim.  I would likely use some HeadLok screws I have an I wouldn't be shy.  The red squares are bottle jacks on a paver with a scrap of ply.  Once supported, I could rip out all the compromised wood and replace it.  This idea at least gets the support jacks out of the plane where I need to replace lumber. Does that sound safe?



Important to note.  According to the wonderous rotating laser, the corner you're looking at is about 1" lower than the highest point in the floor, (which was about where I'm standing for this photo) but since I lowered that high point about 1/2",  the corner is actually only about 1/2" lower than my target joist height.

So that begs the question.  I could
A) replace both the rims at their current height, replace the joists, and painstakingly shim the entire room (sounds like a recipe for a noisy, weaker subfloor)
B) replace both the rims at their current height, but notch the top of each span joist so I can clear the sill and install 1/2" higher to my target height
C) use the bottle jacks to lift the whole corner 1/2" and sneak the rim under it _at target height _before installing new span joists.


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## curtis73 (Aug 17, 2020)

Here is a not-to-scale elevation looking east showing my target heights.  The part over the concrete slab I already dropped the framing down 1/2" toward the middle, so that section over the slab is kosher at 19" and level.  Now I need to drop or shave the other cross beam and bring up the south end about 1/2".


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## curtis73 (Aug 17, 2020)

Oh... another important thing to note that may be of importance.  This is a one-story house, so directly above this corner is an eave and roof.  Not trying to lift or support a 3 story house or anything.


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## bud16415 (Aug 17, 2020)

My first question is what is above? Truss roof / framed roof? Second story then roof?



Second question is can you removing some siding and make these replacements from outside? Jack on inside replace from outside or the other way around.



I am not a pro and have been hoping some others would feel free to jump in with their 2 cents as well.



IMO lifting in just 2 lines against 2 studs and under 2 joists would not be enough removing long sections of the rim. I especially think it is not enough after knowing the same guy that built the floor most likely built all above.



I would be looking at removing the wall coverings about a foot up and then attaching a high temp rim joist to each stud connecting it all at the bottom and strong enough to lift against and block while getting the rotten stuff out. Opening the wall would also show you if the damage extends up into the studs where they may need to be trimmed off and maybe even a taller replacement rim be installed.

Even if it is only a single story there is a huge amount of weight not being supported by much now and it has to be held solid wile you get something new and strong in there.


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## bud16415 (Aug 17, 2020)

Haha you read my mind.


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## bud16415 (Aug 17, 2020)




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## mabloodhound (Aug 18, 2020)

Jack as Bud shows and replace a piece at a time (5' / 6' or so).  If there are multiple thicknesses, make sure you stagger the joints at least 1 foot.  Of course do one wall at a time.  And put some vapor poly down over that dirt before you cover it up.


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## curtis73 (Aug 18, 2020)

There is some poly down there, I just moved some of it out of the way.  They didn't do a good job of coverage which I will correct, but vapor barrier is definitely on the list.

I actually have a clear shot to do both as a single piece, so I'd like to do that.  Based on all of your advices, here's my plan.

Today I dug a hole near the stucco.  It's about 9x24 x 1 foot deep.  I mixed up 80 lbs of concrete and filled it, then embedded/leveled a 4x8x16 concrete block in it.  There wasn't a support pier in the middle of this wall before, so probably not necessary, but it will make me feel comfy with a 4x4 between concrete and the new joists.

I also got an endoscope in between the sill and drywall by cutting a wee bit off the bottom.  The bottom of the sill has some termite damage for about 2' but no damage on the top of the sill and only one stud shows about 2" of damage.  Poked things with a screwdriver on the studs and sill and I'm satisfied that it stays.  I also poked the double rim and found zero wood.  It is all toast.  This means I feel that the wall is mostly supporting itself, so I'm planning to throw a 2x8-12 on the wall like bud said.  I already filled/bled my bottle jacks.  All I will need is modest support (he says hopefully)

Starting with the right wall, I'll support, yank the bad wood, replace with double 2x8 PT spaced up on the existing block in the corner, sitting on the concrete slab on the other side, and then (once that concrete pier I added cures) a 4x4 post in the middle.  At least I know that what I'm doing will be stronger than original.

Then the left wall will be rinse and repeat.

One concern.  Once I remove the old span joists, how much risk is there of the south wall falling in or out?  Like how ceiling joists are what hold the top of the walls together, how much are the floor joists responsible for holding the bottoms in place?  I checked and the wall is plumb, but how gentle do I need to be with it?  I'm thinking about hammering in the new joists in tight areas and nailing/screwing the joist hangers.


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## curtis73 (Aug 18, 2020)

And the roof is a simple hip.  No trusses, just some rough cut 2x from the fascia up to a ridge beam, roof is slats of 1x.  Typical early 1900s construction.


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## bud16415 (Aug 18, 2020)

The only thing I might do different with jacking .5-1.0” is I would work both walls at the same time. Less chance of breaking drywall and decoupling along roof line etc.

Maybe @mabloodhound can comment on that as well.


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## curtis73 (Aug 18, 2020)

I've decided to play it safe on the jacking part.  I'm only going to use the jacks to support instead of raise. I may lift 1/16" or so just to give me space to slide the new PT in. My main reason for doing this is to level the floor which I can do by installing the span joists 1/2" higher on the rim.

At this point, my big goal is to just have it not fall on my head while I pull the bad wood out.


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## mabloodhound (Aug 19, 2020)

Yes, that is a good plan.  I only do one wall at a time when doing this type of work.  You probably will find the new lumber is narrower than what was used so it should fit fine and may even require some shimming.


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## curtis73 (Aug 19, 2020)

Well, the old 2x8s have... um.... compressed as they decayed.  But they have a little shimming under them.  I think I have plenty of space if I support and remove it all.

Should I worry about the wall after the span joists are out?  How much are they responsible for keeping the bottom of the wall from falling in/out?  Or can I remove the spans and not worry about it?


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## bud16415 (Aug 19, 2020)

Sounds like a plan to me as well. I don’t think you will have any problem removing the bad joists one or two at a time.

Your project is a great example of repairing this type of damage and hope you keep posting pics as you go. It seems to pop up every year or so and it will be nice to have a (how to) thread to point to.


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## mabloodhound (Aug 19, 2020)

If you remove the joists, do so after getting the jacks in place.  The gable end wall wouldn't be a problem but the sidewall might if you try and jack it after the joists are out.  You could take a measurement from a fixed beam and check it every so often to make sure the wall doesn't move.  It's only going to be a couple of days wile you replace the sill and put new joists in.
And as far as the plywood subfloor, cut the first panel to fit the longest space (less than 8') and then cut the next panel to fit approx. half the distance so your joints are staggered.


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## curtis73 (Aug 19, 2020)

Ok, thank you.  The floor joists run parallel with the peak of the roof, so (in the picture) the right wall is under the eave and the left wall is under the gable.  That makes me feel better about taking out all the span joists so I can do one solid piece of rim.

The subfloor is Advantech which is an engineered OSB-style stuff.  Since the room is 11'6" wide, I will simply install joists at 16" OC from the east wall, then measure out 8' from the west wall and add another joist.  That way I can stagger the full sheets and minimize cuts


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## curtis73 (Aug 21, 2020)

Ok, here we go.  Today was the first real day of work.  It was really the first day I had help available, and I also wanted to give the concrete I poured a few days to get a little stronger before putting weight on it.  A genuine and hearty thank you for all the guidance.

Step 1:  Screw 2x8 to the east wall through the studs.  Used two 8 ton jacks to just support the weight.  Remove bad double rim joist.  This photo shows the old stuff gone.  The first (outer) new 2x8 is in place.  It went in as two pieces supported by my new concrete pier in the center.




Step 2:  After shimming up the ends to proper height, the jacks were removed and a one-piece second 2x8 was added and shimmed up to match, then screwed together with HeadLoks every 8" or so.  My buddy went a little overkill on the screws, but I didn't care a bit.  Here is the second rim, installed, and being sistered to the first.




Step 3:  Moved the jack sill over to the south wall and supported that wall.  Cut out the span joists.  After getting the joists off and cutting the nails flush, I realized that this rim was more solid than I anticipated.  The last foot or so in the corner was junk, as was a very small section in the middle.  I made the decision to leave it there and just add a second PT rim on the inside.




Here it is with the new rim (in two pieces) installed on the south wall.  Foundation repair done, and in the process (even though it wasn't my intent) we somehow ended up gaining our 1/2" elevation in the process... at least it appears as though that is the case.  I'll know for sure when I get my nailer joist attached to the east wall and I can get an accurate measurement.




So, the whole thing has now had all the bad wood removed and replaced with all new PT.  The south wall which was a single rim is now a double rim.  Anything touching concrete is now PT.  No one died, the walls didn't collapse, no drywall cracks, and I may have accidentally raised and trued the sills in the process.  I really don't know if I did it "right," but I know what I did is strong like bull. Tomorrow I need to get more KD 2x8 for span joists and install them, then I should be ready for shimming and subfloor.


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## curtis73 (Aug 21, 2020)

This whole process (today's foundation repair) took 4.5 hours.  Materials list for this project so far:  
[email protected] 2x8-12 PT.  
[email protected] 2x8-12 KD for the support screwed to the studs
[email protected] 4x4-8 PT to make piers
[email protected] 12x12 pavers as mobile jack pads.  
[email protected] 4x8x16 concrete blocks as mobile jack pads.  Note:  As you'll see in my pictures, I put the jacks directly on the concrete because quick calculations suggested I wasn't actually handling a lot of weight.  For serious jobs, use a scrap of ply or 2x between the jack and concrete.  The hard steel of the jack against the hard concrete _can cause the concrete to break_.
[email protected] 80 lb bag of concrete.
[email protected] mixing tub (already had)
[email protected] 8 ton bottle jacks and [email protected] 2 ton bottle jack.  (already had these)  The 8 ton jacks were for the main wall support.  The 2 ton with it's tiny profile was used to make sure the new rim joists were up nice and snug against the sills for shimming.
[email protected] box of 2-7/8" HeadLok screws.
[email protected] PT fence picket and [email protected] PT lattice strip.  These were what I cut and used for shims/spacers.


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## mabloodhound (Aug 22, 2020)

Perfect, exactly as I would have done it.


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## bud16415 (Aug 22, 2020)

Great job! Both of making the repairs and also documenting the process.   

I can't wait to see that DIY hardwood down. 

You will enjoy your floor so much more knowing all is good below it.


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## curtis73 (Aug 23, 2020)

At this point, I don't really expect replies.  This is the boring part.  I'm mostly documenting stuff just in case anyone needs a reference, but if you see me doing something wrong, please chime in.

Taking my sweet time... partly because I want this just right, but also because I've been working alone for the last two days.  With the exception of a couple ups and downs in the lumber, the entire framing is within 1/16" of an inch.  That is to say, the ends and the center are all perfect within 1/16" of level.  I will follow up with sliding a 6' level across the joists and a shim as a feeler to identify lows and highs.  Anything more than about 3/32" will get shimmed unless it is just over a small area.  Trying to avoid having to use anything between the subfloor and the flooring.

Notice the one joist that isn't at 16" OC?  That's my solution to the odd width of the room.  It's 138" wide, so if I just pulled off one wall and did 16" OC, I would have to have a continuous seam following the joist that is at 96".  Since I want to stagger, I simply moved that joist 6" over.  That means I have one span of 10" and the next is 22".  This makes it so that I'm not exceeding a max span of 24", but it also puts a joist in the right spot for when I start with a full sheet on the left.  My urge to do things beefy might win, and I might put an extra joist in the larger span that is in the middle, but so far this is all complete overkill.  I'm trying to tell myself "I don't need that joist, so why add something else that might need shims and leveling?"  As it is, I could space them all at 24", remove that center support, and still be at 135 psi shear.

On the right wall you'll probably also see a 2x6 that is spaced out with some 1x scraps every 2' or so.  This is because the original sill had fallen about 1/2", so spacing it out gave me the ability to put a nailer rim at the right height.  I did regain about 1/8" when I did my jacking and replaced the rims, but not enough.


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## curtis73 (Aug 23, 2020)

So, I re-mathed and decided that everything on 16" centers would only cause me to buy one more sheet of subfloor, so I took changed my mind.  Everything is 16" OC now.

I traced over the joists with the 4' level and didn't see any dips or rises that really needed my attention.  Nothing more than 1/16" or so.

Made a lot of progress today.  My buddy stopped over again and we were able to finish the joists and lay about 80% of the floor.  I even put new register boxes on the ducting (I kinda mangled the old ones getting them out).  The bonus is, I turned on the laser and measured in about 15 completely random places, and every time I got exactly 18-7/16"  That floor is level and flat, baby.


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## Annapolis Albert (Aug 24, 2020)

It's looking good.  I can appreciate what you are doing as I recently did the whole floor of a 115-year-old church.  All the beams and joists were rotten.


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## curtis73 (Aug 25, 2020)

Subfloor complete.  For now, the maple flooring part is on pause.  Part of this project is the fireplace installation, so I have some framing and stone veneer work to do.  Thanks to you all, I am calling this project complete.  I asked for help on prepping a floor and you walked me through a complete subfloor and joist replacement AND JACKING UP MY HOUSE TO REPLACE A FOUNDATION.  You all rock.


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## bud16415 (Aug 26, 2020)

Looks good and looking forward to seeing some of the fireplace and then floor install if you feel like sharing. Helping on here is easy all we do is drink coffee.


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## mabloodhound (Aug 26, 2020)

Great job.  Now, for the fireplace, if you're going to have a floor level hearth, make sure the top of the hearth is level with the finished floor.  Otherwise you end up with a 'tripping' obstacle.


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## curtis73 (Aug 26, 2020)

Here's the plan for that.  The flooring is 1/2".  The floor level hearth will be 1/4" slate on 1/4" hardie backer.  I figure with the mud under the slate and the underlayment under the wood, they should land within 1/16" of each other.  I could fine tune it with a second layer of paper under the wood near the hearth if my mud is too thick.

Basically, the whole fireplace enclosure framing will be on 1/4" backer so the whole floor of the cavity is fire resistant.  That backer will continue out under the hearth.

The plan is to get the backer down, the fireplace in, then go ahead and set the slate so I know my target.

While I'm here, I've narrowed my options of underlayment down to three:  15# felt, 30# felt, and aquabar.  I don't need cushion, but I definitely need top notch vapor barrier and some sound deadening would be nice... so I'm leaning toward the 30# felt.  Thoughts?


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## curtis73 (Sep 4, 2020)

Permit for fireplace approved.  Moving forward.  I decided to line the cavity with 1/4" Hardie Backer.  Totally not necessary, but anyone who has burned wood from a demo on an old house knows how it burns like it's soaked in gasoline.  Any heat I can keep away from it is good.

Truck went in for some repairs, so I'm stalled a couple days until I can get more materials.  I also took the time while the floor was out to run speaker wire under the floor and got some keystone plates to run two HDMI and speaker wire up through the framing so I don't have a bunch of ugly wires for my home theater.


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## curtis73 (Sep 6, 2020)

Fireplace roughed in.  Ceiling joists boxed for the chimney.  By the way, the board leaning up to the right is some of the 5" T&G maple I'll be putting down.


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## curtis73 (Sep 17, 2020)

Had to pause on the fireplace.  Chimney parts are on backorder and no one has any in stock.  That's cool.  I moved on to paint and flooring for now.  I splurged and got the HT chimney in stainless.  Just one less thing to worry about.

The living room is a color that Behr calls Gold Ink, but I call it Avocado Diarrhea.  I love it.  Accent wall in the hallway is Rogue Blue which I would describe as blue slate.  I nicknamed it Midnight Bruise.

Pics soon.


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## curtis73 (Sep 17, 2020)

A wee bit of floor leveling in the hallway.  Tomorrow I'll be putting down 30# felt, then buzzing over to mom and dad's for the flooring. (storing it at their place).  Then I'll bring it in to acclimate it and sort into bigger stuff for the field and less-lovely stuff for perimeters, ends, and other hidden areas.




Avocado Diarrhea in the living room, Midnight Bruise in the hallway.


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## curtis73 (Sep 17, 2020)

I also played around with a little CAD to test my vision for the chase and mantel.  The stone in the CAD is NOT an accurate representation.




The cabinets on the side won't have solid doors.  Less than a block away from me is an artisan who does leaded/stained glass, so I'll build the frames and take them to him for a custom glass insert.  Corbels shown are a bit bigger than what I want, but it's all I could find in the software.

Then a buddy took my ideas and put his own twist on it.  He's a far better CAD user than I, and he went a little crazy with cabinetry which I don't think I'll use.  What I will use from his idea is the wall treatment; copper sheet.  I had entertained the idea of using copper cladding around the fireplace itself, but preferred stone.  He came up with the idea of copper on the walls.



And lastly, here is an image of a fireplace that uses the stone I have chosen.  It's a PA blue fieldstone.  I found a company about an hour away that uses actual stone and cuts it into veneer.


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## curtis73 (Sep 17, 2020)

I have also decided to do something that I think might be awesome if I can execute it successfully.  I was going to do those keystone wall plates for behind the TV, but I decided to widen the chase for a more "masonry" look which left no real estate for big ugly wall plates.

Instead, I just ordered one of these panel-mount keystone bays.  I'm going to call on my materials talents to use some epoxy/filler to make this into a stone, then I have a genius painter who can paint it to match the other stone around it.  I will have a stone that accepts keystones, so it will blend in far better than a big plastic plate.


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## MrMiz (Sep 18, 2020)

curtis73 said:


> I have also decided to do something that I think might be awesome if I can execute it successfully.  I was going to do those keystone wall plates for behind the TV, but I decided to widen the chase for a more "masonry" look which left no real estate for big ugly wall plates.
> 
> Instead, I just ordered one of these panel-mount keystone bays.  I'm going to call on my materials talents to use some epoxy/filler to make this into a stone, then I have a genius painter who can paint it to match the other stone around it.  I will have a stone that accepts keystones, so it will blend in far better than a big plastic plate.
> 
> View attachment 24415


Now that... I would like to see when it's done! ;-)


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## Ron Van (Sep 18, 2020)

*good job!*


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## curtis73 (Oct 1, 2020)

Phase 643... maple hardwood floors done.  This is the whole reason I started this thread.

I went back and forth for days on oil vs water poly.  Oil has that soak-in ability which really makes the figure of the wood look 3D, but it also ambers wood, and the oils will get darker as the years go by.  Water poly doesn't darken the wood, but also lacks the ability to really give contrast to the grain.

I had pretty much decided on Zar "self leveling poly."  It seemed to have the least ambering of the oil base polys, and rated as the hardest poly after it cures.  Unfortunately, the self-leveling part comes from additional solvents and high VOC which means I can only get quarts in PA.  I wasn't keen on spending $400 (or driving 4 hours to WV) for a finish that meant moving out of the house for a week to avoid brain damage.

I went to a paint store that had reviews mentioning that the owner was super knowledgeable.  We probably spent an hour talking about finishes.  He always keeps one pint or quart of everything he stocks as store use.  I had taken a scrap with me and we tried 6 or 7 finishes.  One came through hands down winner.  Zar OMU.  Oil modified urethane.  It is oil/alkyd urethane esters emulsified in a water base.  Just enough of the alkyd esters to make the grain pop without darkening.  Cures both by film drying and O2 crosslinking and supposedly very hard when cured.

Viscosity I would put right around melted butter or maple syrup.  On the thinner side of a typical oil poly and on the thicker side of a water poly



The first coat I put on with a typical synthetic sponge (water wiz) on a stick and found it difficult to work with, so instead I went and bought one of these pictured below and jabbed a stick in the handle.  This was the bees knees.  No edging or snowplowing, just start at one end and go to the other.  Drop-ins, starts/stops, no worries.  I just made sure the mop was moving before contact.  That is probably also due to the OMU's ability to self level.

This is what I used and may never use a normal floor pad ever again.  It is a microfiber cover on a T-bar that is marketed for professional window washers.  You dip it in soapy water to scrub a window.  This thing ROCKED my floor.  $12 at Home Depot.  I was able to lay impossibly thin coats


Like I said, pictures don't do it justice, but here is the floor being installed, and then some after 4 coats of poly.


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## curtis73 (Oct 1, 2020)




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## curtis73 (Oct 1, 2020)

Next step is to finish the chimney, get the inspection, then skin and masonry.


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## oldognewtrick (Oct 1, 2020)

Nicely done!

Looks like you're making excellent progress. I always go to real paint stores when buying paint, they are so much more knowledgeable and helpful than the big box stores. The quality of paint at the big box stores is less than name brand stores.


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## curtis73 (Oct 1, 2020)

Also realized I inserted the wrong pic for the poly.  It's Zar OMU Poly, not the ultraviolet.

Oops.


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## zannej (Oct 2, 2020)

I'm just now seeing this thread for the first time and I love it. I absolutely love that you salvaged a tree & had it made into flooring. You have done amazing work!
I was too late to the party to mention I've heard that you can use asphalt shingles as shims. They don't rot & they don't compress. I'm very glad you pulled the floor & saw the condition of the joists so you were able to replace them. That looked like a LOT of work but you did a great job- especially with back problems.

There is also a sister forum to this: flooringforums.com that you might like. I bet the guys over there would love to see your progress. I'm very impressed with how this has turned out and I love your plans for the fireplace.

It already looks amazing so I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product. It's making me want to be more productive.


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## curtis73 (Oct 2, 2020)

zannej said:


> I'm just now seeing this thread for the first time and I love it. I absolutely love that you salvaged a tree & had it made into flooring. You have done amazing work!
> I was too late to the party to mention I've heard that you can use asphalt shingles as shims. They don't rot & they don't compress.



Thank you.  A labor of love.  I never knew how long I would stay here, but my job is awesome so roots in this area are fine with me.  I did give pause when COVID hit and housing prices skyrocketed here.  For a while there I could have sold this house for 40% more than I paid 3 years ago, but I guess I really want to stay.  For about 1 hour I thought "I could put this maple in my next house..." but nah.

I did scavenge some shingles from the neighbor's garage roofing job in case I needed them, but I only would have needed a piece of one.  Instead I had some leftover floor leveling compound so I just used it in that one corner by the bathroom.


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## curtis73 (Oct 2, 2020)

oldognewtrick said:


> Nicely done!
> 
> Looks like you're making excellent progress. I always go to real paint stores when buying paint, they are so much more knowledgeable and helpful than the big box stores. The quality of paint at the big box stores is less than name brand stores.



I was so happy with that paint store that I took some leftover maple to him for his wood shop.  I also gave him the applicator I used.  We had brainstormed some applicator ideas and I wanted him to be able to try what I ended up using.


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## curtis73 (Nov 3, 2020)

Not much to update.  Couch and chair are in, and I bought a new studded office chair for the secretary desk.  I had enough Maple left over to do all the baseboards.

Inspector came to look at the fireplace and was here about 15 seconds.  He basically said "yup, it's a fireplace."

I'm slowly getting around to skinning it with backer and I'll be making a run for the stone veneer I want.


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## zannej (Nov 3, 2020)

Good to hear that. Glad the inspector passed the fireplace. I'm looking forward to more updates.


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## curtis73 (Dec 19, 2020)

Been going slowly.  My truck is sick, Covid is ramping up, holidays, and hunting season mean my priorities have been shifted.  But I do have updates.

I was able to take the 2.5" slab of walnut and turn it into a mantel.  The slab was longer and skinnier than the mantel shape, so I was able to take the ends off and laminate them to the side to get the shape I needed.  Biscuits and pocket screws for the win.  Cut, radius, router, light stain, and done.  The finish is a concoction I made with equal parts mineral spirits, satin oil poly, and tung oil.  I hand-rubbed 6 coats.









Then I built a coffee table to match with the remaining walnut which I had cut to 5/4".  I grabbed a scrap of lauan to make a leg pattern.  Maybe it's because it's hunting season, but I wanted legs that went along with the Victorian/English Gentlemen's club theme and reminiscent of antlers without being too "country."  I hand rubbed two coats of the tung oil/poly mixture, then coated with two coats of satin poly thinned 2 parts poly to 1 part spirits.  I wanted a couple coats of actual straight poly since this table will get things like drink glasses set on it, feet propped up, and generally more use than the mantel








Now I'm building cabinets for the left and right sides of the fireplace.  I don't have pictures yet, but I got as far as building the basic framing of the cabinet.  I'm running low on useable walnut, so I had to make the choice of doing the side panels with lauan and a walnut veneer.  It will be the only part of the cabinets that isn't solid walnut, but I'm OK with that.  It also freed up a wee bit more interior space in the cabinet, which, in the limited space I have will be nice for future upgrades to my A/V system.  If I ever need to upgrade or replace my receiver, I don't want to be forced to limit my choices by "what fits."

I'm finishing up the cabinet doors today and they'll get the same stain/finish.  Still waiting on the veneer to show up, then I'll get some pictures.


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 19, 2020)

Great job on the mantle and I really like the coffee table!


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## Snoonyb (Dec 19, 2020)

With every Country Squire, is an equally talented seamstress.


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## curtis73 (Dec 19, 2020)

I seem to be lacking in the "-ess" department.  Have an extra I can spare?  Thank goodness I'm not a bad seamster myself.


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## zannej (Dec 19, 2020)

Legs for the coffee table are very cool! I like that there's a lower shelf in there. Mantle looks nice as well.


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## bud16415 (Dec 20, 2020)

Very Nice.


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## curtis73 (Apr 3, 2021)

Not quite entirely finished.  Still need trim around the copper, and the speakers will eventually hang on the wall, but almost ready.

I searched long and hard for real copper ceiling tile and found one possibility, but it was way too expensive and so corroded that it had pinholes in it.  So for now, it's the plastic stuff.  The walnut cabinets are all solid walnut except for the end panels which are lauan with walnut veneer (ran out of walnut heartwood.)  The walnut cabinet doors I took down the street to have a stained glass shop build the glass.  The perimeter pieces are pink glass that was reclaimed from a church built in the 1780s.

Almost done.


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## bud16415 (Apr 3, 2021)

Very nice and you can be proud of saying you built it from the ground up.


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## Junto (Apr 4, 2021)

curtis73 said:


> Thank you.  A labor of love.  I never knew how long I would stay here, but my job is awesome so roots in this area are fine with me.  I did give pause when COVID hit and housing prices skyrocketed here.  For a while there I could have sold this house for 40% more than I paid 3 years ago, but I guess I really want to stay.  For about 1 hour I thought "I could put this maple in my next house..." but nah.
> 
> I did scavenge some shingles from the neighbor's garage roofing job in case I needed them, but I only would have needed a piece of one.  Instead I had some leftover floor leveling compound so I just used it in that one corner by the bathroom.


 
Curtis73. this thread reminds me of the Einstein quote: "If I had one hour to solve a problem, I'd spend 55 minutes thinking about the problem & 5 minutes thinking of the solutions”.  I think I learned more from the way you anayzed and framed the problem as anything else.  Thank you for helping me solve my next "opportunity".


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## Ron Van (Sep 29, 2022)

Did you finish?


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