# Redo small deck roof to Support Walk-on and Panels



## tk3000

Some time ago, in a hurry, I laid down some 100watts solar panels on a small flat corrugated metal roof. There is a total of 4 100watts solar panels connected in parallel. The roof belongs to a small deck attached to the house and it lacks any sheathing. Below is an old pic depicting the situation: 







I plan on installing a much larger array in this small roof and having them facing south at an angle by means of rails and a mounting system. Problem is that I need a roof with sheathing and a roofing cover that I can walk on (the corrugated steel gets all deformed and dented if one tries to walk on it). Any ideas on how redo this small roof? Plywood as sheathing? 

thks


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## Snoonyb

tk3000 said:


> Some time ago, in a hurry, I laid down some 100watts solar panels on a small flat corrugated metal roof. There is a total of 4 100watts solar panels connected in parallel. The roof belongs to a small deck attached to the house and it lacks any sheathing. Below is an old pic depicting the situation:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I plan on installing a much larger array in this small roof and having them facing south at an angle by means of rails and a mounting system. Problem is that I need a roof with sheathing and a roofing cover that I can walk on (the corrugated steel gets all deformed and dented if one tries to walk on it). Any ideas on how redo this small roof? Plywood as sheathing?
> 
> thks



What are the structural components of the roof?


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## nealtw

I don't like the transition from the other roof.


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## tk3000

Snoonyb said:


> What are the structural components of the roof?




I am not really sure about the structure of this small attached deck roof, but it seems that it only has rafters, some support blocks linking some of the raters. The pic below shows a view from inside: 






Some spots in the metal roof panels have had some damage in the past: dented and deformed which then caused some leaks. But I was wondering about using some osb as sheathing, but then the question of increasing the height of the roof and thus eliminating whatever small slope it may have crops up? And what type of roof material: something quick and easy as metal or pvc roof panels without the issues of denting and deforming?

thks


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## tk3000

nealtw said:


> I don't like the transition from the other roof.



Hmmm.. Are you talking about the transition from the epdm membrane (allseason room) besides the small deck's roof (that is was done in 2010 by the roof company who redid the roof of the whole house, etc)?


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## Snoonyb

tk3000 said:


> I am not really sure about the structure of this small attached deck roof, but it seems that it only has rafters, some support blocks linking some of the raters. The pic below shows a view from inside:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some spots in the metal roof panels have had some damage in the past: dented and deformed which then caused some leaks. But I was wondering about using some osb as sheathing, but then the question of increasing the height of the roof and thus eliminating whatever small slope it may have crops up? And what type of roof material: something quick and easy as metal or pvc roof panels without the issues of denting and deforming?
> 
> thks



Structural members or components are what it's made up of, in this case 2X4 rafters @ 24"oc, no header and 4X4 posts.

What you do not have, in any stretch of the imagination, is a walkable roof.

We can tell you how to create a walkable roof that would withstand the additional loading of a solar array, however your local building dept. will probably have a hand out which we can assist you in applying to your dwelling.


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## bud16415

I have to be completely honest here and I don&#8217;t like anything about the small shed roof  you have now. I&#8217;m actually quite surprised it makes it thru a northern winter. It is way under structured and unsafe to be on or for that matter under. We see a lot like that for temporary sheds for storing firewood and such. I could go into all the problems I see but I really don&#8217;t think it can be made safe. If it were mine I would carefully take it apart and you could reuse the materials including the roofing but with a totally different method of building.


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## nealtw

tk3000 said:


> Hmmm.. Are you talking about the transition from the epdm membrane (allseason room) besides the small deck's roof (that is was done in 2010 by the roof company who redid the roof of the whole house, etc)?



Ah, Ah, AH, Lets leave the transition for some one like OLdog to comment on.
There are about 5 ways you could structure something like this, some for utility and some for looks and what you have is non of those.

Sorry but that is a tear down.
I'll bet that the 4x4 is just siding on the deck.


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## oldognewtrick

There's nothing about the structure that's suitable for any kind of roofing. To low of a slope. Lower roof over the shingle roof. No suitable decking or ability to apply a waterproof underlayment. 

Frame rafters that tie into the shingle roof to give a minimum pitch of at least 4/12, and have battens running across the rafter to give lateral support of the metal panels, would be a good place to start. The transition at the shingle roof should have a pitch change flashing with "Z" bar and butyl tape to make it watertight. investing in new metal would be a great investment. What you have will not be serviceable.


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## nealtw

This guy looks at two approaches to attaching to the house, neither are to the fascia and there is a beam on top of the support posts.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbXw518CRHU[/ame]


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## nealtw

We can't talk about this with out questioning the roof on the addition too. I would like to see a photo in the attic of both the underside of this section and the underside facing the addition.


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## tk3000

nealtw said:


> This guy looks at two approaches to attaching to the house, neither are to the fascia and there is a beam on top of the support posts.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbXw518CRHU



This would be too much work for me right now, I really dont want to touch the shinges at the main structure. Besides my needs are much more modest: good structure and support+ water proofing+drainage. But a good reference!


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## tk3000

Thanks for all the insights! So, this was a very sloppy job and ultimately I am screwed with this small roof deck..

I have worked on a flat epdm roof before, replacing sheathing and damaged rafters using sister rafters, etc. But I totally dislike the epdm: it seems that the woodpeckers and other creatures can easily damage it.

Below is pic showing the deck sideways along with its 3 4x4 posts. Do the posts seem adquate to support the roof with short span? 






Snoonyb: yep, I realize it is by no means walkable... 99% of the people don't buy permits for this type of work,so I am not the one who will. But I will always observer the code and best practices. Besides, based on the comments herein, it seems that this roof deck does not meet any code...

bud1641, oldog: thanks for being straightforward. Would you say that replacing the roof deck, adding osb sheathing, and the replacing the roof panels would suffice; or does it entail replacing the 4x4 posts for this small span roof?

nealtw: I will get a pic from the attic soon


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## oldognewtrick

If your plan is to add solid decking, then install roof panels, Put a layer of Ice and Water Shield over the wood decking before you install the panels. This isn't the perfect scenario, but better than direct to deck with no moisture barrier.


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## nealtw

tk3000 said:


> This would be too much work for me right now, I really dont want to touch the shinges at the main structure. Besides my needs are much more modest: good structure and support+ water proofing+drainage. But a good reference!



So we want the strongest structure you can get on a very tight budget.

Things to be concerned with.
Posts: subject to frost if not mounted on a footing deeper than frost level.
Cheapest insurance perimeter  drain even if not deep enough will keep water away from deck and eave trough when done.

Average snow load; you can look that up for your area, may not be the same as what you got last year.
Height, I think Oldog suggested it should be about 3 or 4 inches lower than the main roof.


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## Snoonyb

tk3000 said:


> Snoonyb: yep, I realize it is by no means walkable... 99% of the people don't buy permits for this type of work,so I am not the one who will. But I will always observer the code and best practices. Besides, based on the comments herein, it seems that this roof deck does not meet any code...



I understand about the reluctance to obtain permits.

The other part of the recommendation, is to avail yourself of the opportunity to broaden your knowledge base.

The handout is free.

If you intend to "temporarily" beef up this roof, because the 2X6 the rafters are attached to, that is nailed to the 4X4's, and otherwise unsupported, should have a 2X4 nailed to the outside of the 4X4, underneath the 2X6.

Correctly attaching this to the dwelling has nothing to do with any part of the attic.


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## slownsteady

Hey TK, aren't you happy you asked?


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## slownsteady

Just throwing this out there for thoughts: what about something freestanding?


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## nealtw

OK the cheap fix.
At the top end they have hangers, good, With hanger you can see there are a certain number of nails holding the rafters to the fascia.
The problem is if the deck does move up and down with the frost or loading the 2 nails from the fascia to the house rafters will give up at some point. So we will want to remove the soffet install 
The half hanger on each side of the rafters to the back of the fascia.
Replace the soffet.
On the other end, Well first.
Confirm that the posts are supported to something below, not just sitting on deck board, right over a floor joist would be a plus., Check the lower portions for rot by stabbing it with a screw driver.
Explain the construction there or take pictures.
More after you get this info.
This hanger is a  Simpson L30.
You would like to have the roof reach out and match the add on roof?
Stand near the center post on the yard side and take a picture of the side of the roof of the add on building. Just want to see what the over hang looks like on that part of the roof.


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## bud16415

What you have is closest to pole barn construction. You can google that and see many examples of how the tin roofing is supported without sheathing. They have rafters or trusses in a pole barn and then on top of them they run purlins. The purlins are nothing more than 2x4 or 2x6 laid flat and attached to the rafters to support the tin. It is the cheapest way to do it and lets air circulate all around the framing and tin. The way yours is the tin slopes away from the rafters at the top and is supported by nothing the lower area is only supported where there is a rafter. So steping between rafters you are about to go right thru it. 

Your posts are most likely ok and if they haven&#8217;t heaved yet they are most likely deep enough. The lower deck is fine. I would remove the tin and the rafters and the hangers and get all that out of there. You could always shorten the 4x4 poles to give more pitch and put a new support for the rafters to land on lower down. The way it is attached to the house we have no idea what it is attached to based on the rest of the construction, I&#8217;m guessing just the fascia board and we have no idea if its structural or not and as mentioned it is too high and joining the roof like that is asking for trouble in an area where you get snow and freezing and melting cycles. You will get an ice dam and water will melt off the main house run down and pool and then enter back into the house, or at least rot your overhang. I would want the tin roof under the overhang of the main roof or even not touching the house at all and that would require a few more poles. Once you are not attached to the house though you don&#8217;t have the stability from the house and need to have your poles diagonal braced a few places to prevent racking. 

Last fall I built a fast and dirty roof over my hot tub for winter with a tin roof I did it free standing and left it 6 inches from touching the house and gutter. When it&#8217;s raining you get a little rain at the gap but it&#8217;s not that bad and I know it is not hurting the house at all.


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## slownsteady

Let's not forget to factor in the weight of the proposed solar panels.


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## nealtw

I think we can rework this to make it strong enough to carry a load for a few years and guarantee it will be about as water proof as it is now.


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## oldognewtrick

If it were my house I'd install the solar arrays on the roof. This type application would make it a whole lot easier to flash to and give you better orientation to the sun. Just my:2cents:

Neal has a roof application guide, maybe he will post it here?


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## nealtw

http://www.solarpowerworldonline.com...shingle-roofs/


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## tk3000

slownsteady said:


> Hey TK, aren't you happy you asked?



Yeah, I do not know what would be of me if it was not for this forum! 

But, still, I realized that the roof was very simple but since it was a small deck I imagined that it  would be acceptable. Besides I assumed that the previous owner who got it installed have done it the proper way...


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## tk3000

Snoonyb said:


> I understand about the reluctance to obtain permits.
> 
> The other part of the recommendation, is to avail yourself of the opportunity to broaden your knowledge base.
> 
> The handout is free.
> 
> If you intend to "temporarily" beef up this roof, because the 2X4 the rafters are attached to, that is nailed to the 4X4's, and otherwise unsupported, should have a 2X4 nailed to the outside of the 4X4, underneath the 2X4.
> 
> Correctly attaching this to the dwelling has nothing to do with any part of the attic.



yep, I can always get the handout online. I am always looking to expand the knowledge base and see different possible solutions and their outcome. Don't know much about roofs in particular, but know may with carpentry. 

Whereon this small roof is attached to the main house there is a ledger board with metal brackets, and it also has extra blocking for support.  So it seems that the main issue is not having proper support at the other end (it has metal rafter hangers), a simple 2x4  across the 3 posts attache via lag bolts would offer enough support?


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## tk3000

nealtw said:


> http://www.solarpowerworldonline.com...shingle-roofs/



The link is not working :help:


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## Snoonyb

tk3000 said:


> Yeah, I do not know what would be of me if it was this forum!
> 
> But, still, I realized that the roof was very simple but since it was a small deck that it  would be acceptable. Besides I assumed that the previous owner who got it installed have done it the proper way...



Then there is another opportunity to broaden your knowledge base, and your realtor should have informed you of it.

Before you make an offer on a building, ask for a copy of all building permits.

Omissions avail you of a negotiating position, you didn't have before.


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## tk3000

oldognewtrick said:


> If it were my house I'd install the solar arrays on the roof. This type application would make it a whole lot easier to flash to and give you better orientation to the sun. Just my:2cents:
> 
> Neal has a roof application guide, maybe he will post it here?



You have a good point. I have another smaller solar array on the shingle roofs in the garage as well. The following is an old pic showing only two panels (beginning of installation): 







I want to install a much larger array on top of the all seasson roof. And on flat roofs there will be a mechanism to change the angle of the panels in the future.


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## tk3000

slownsteady said:


> Let's not forget to factor in the weight of the proposed solar panels.



Yep, I am taking into account   too. But it is going to be a relatively small array up there (maybe 8 panels).


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## Snoonyb

tk3000 said:


> Whereon this small roof is attached to the main house there is a ledger board with metal brackets, and it also has extra blocking for support.  So it seems that the main issue is not having proper support at the other end (it has metal rafter hangers), a simple 2x4  across the 3 posts attache via lag bolts would offer enough support?



Yes you can view them on line see the structural difference between what you have and what a walkable roof requires, which is what you were ultimately after.

Building dept. do not like or encourage non-walkable roofs, however as constructed and used your deck roof will last as long as the rafter tails the ledger is nailed into, last.

Since little that has been offered as possible solutions, would have been serviceable for your existing circumstance, mounting on the existing sloped roof would be a serviceable solution.


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## tk3000

oldog: so, if I reinforce or redo this roof deck with extra support, then add osb sheathing, and then weather protection plus z flashing when needed in the transition between shingles; wouldn't it make it a suitable roof? This is intended to be flat roof at first, so the roof pitch should be minimal I would imagine. I also happen to have lots of roof EPDM membrane left from another repair. Couldn't I use the epdm membrance to cover the osb sheathing for extra protection as well? 

Based on the following: "
A steep-slope roof (typically a shingle roof) depends upon gravity to cause water to flow in one general direction so it can &#8220;shed&#8221; the water over the breaks & fasteners in the shingles until it flows to the edge.  A low-sloped roof or flat roof can&#8217;t depend upon the water to flow in any particular direction so it must form a watertight, monolithic membrane that stays watertight all the way to the drains or edge.
"

It seems that I would need a very smooth surface to have a a flat roof which leaves with epdm membrance option only. 

By "Frame rafters that tie into the shingle roof to give a minimum pitch of at least 4/12, and have battens running across the rafter to give lateral support of the metal panels, would be a good place to start." Do you mean that the I should lower the clearance of this roof at the point where it connects tot he main structure and and reattach, cut the ratfters end at an angle, then reattach  the rafters to the ledger board (which seems to connect to the main structure? 

bud, nealtw: The lower deck seems to be in good shape and has a nice design. It is difficult to have a closer look at the very bottom, but it seems that the 4x4 poles don't go all the way to the ground and instead are attached to the lower deck (supported by metal brackets) but there are some concrete footings on the ground along with wood blocks supporting the lower deck. There are also some reminiscence of concrete slab on the ground (likes stamped concrete slab) Other than that all the wood main members seemed to be in good shape, I have stained it all few months ago and don't recall finding anything bad.

It seems that in order to create such a slope it seems that rafter ends would have to be cut an angle whereon it connects with the ledger board. Would it be possible to create a small slope by using purlins with a flat roof employing epdm for instance? The purlins would also help the air circulation and cooling which is very important for solar panels.


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## oldognewtrick

tk3000 said:


> oldog: so, if I reinforce or redo this roof deck with extra support, then add osb sheathing, and then weather protection plus z flashing when needed in the transition between shingles; wouldn't it make it a suitable roof? This is intended to be flat roof at first, so the roof pitch should be minimal I would imagine. I also happen to have lots of roof EPDM membrane left from another repair. Couldn't I use the epdm membrance to cover the osb sheathing for extra protection as well?



Yes, a much better solution. Maintain at least a 1/4-12 pitch so water flows away from the house. You won't need a transition flashing at the roof transition. Simply run the rubber up under the shingles at least 12". Glue the rubber to a clean, dry roof deck and it will help reduce bridging at the transition. There should be RTS strips here, but I'll bet you don't have any. Put a 3x3 drip edge on the edges and use 6" cover tape on top of that.


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## tk3000

Regarding the lower deck support. It is somewhat difficult to look closer now due to outpouring rain and also most of the underground footing and support base are covered by dirt and whatnot. Below are few pics showcasing some spots:






(seems to be some concrete footing with heavy wood blocking)






(concrete base where marked)





(lunderneath wood post going underground)





(Another view from the roof deck, note that as nealtw pointed out they all have metal rafter hangers)


I plan on add extra wood members using cedar wood 1/4" osb sheathing+very thin wood panel on top of the osb to create a small pitch, and cover it all with epdm. I wonder whether or not there is some flat metal sheet (without ribs) that I could employ there?


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## tk3000

The panels arrived few days ago. They are all very exited about been deployed  and start generating many kilowatts of  power per day for years to come. These are thin film panels, but are rather heavy.







On a side note, these thin film solar panels really resemble the black "Monolith" from the movie "2001: A Space Odyssey.": a form for which there is no form


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## nealtw

1 The photo from the attic in two places, to determine where or not you should be concerned about the construction of the other roof.

2.The posts at the ground level, on concrete that flairs at the top so even if it is deep enough may still be subject to moved caused by frost.
The wood that contacts the ground does not appear to be rated for underground use.

3. The single 2x6 nailed to the post is out of the question and can be reworked.

4. The photo of the roof overhang at the back does not show what I wanted  to see.

5. How long do you expect it to last, 2, 5, 10, 20 years.

6 If you find the roof on the other addition is as mickey mouse as this, will that change your plans on how to deal with this.

I see a few hundred dollars to make it work , a few hundred more to do it right.


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## tk3000

nealtw said:


> 1 The photo from the attic in two places, to determine where or not you should be concerned about the construction of the other roof.
> 
> 2.The posts at the ground level, on concrete that flairs at the top so even if it is deep enough may still be subject to moved caused by frost.
> The wood that contacts the ground does not appear to be rated for underground use.
> 
> 3. The single 2x6 nailed to the post is out of the question and can be reworked.
> 
> 4. The photo of the roof overhang at the back does not show what I wanted  to see.
> 
> 5. How long do you expect it to last, 2, 5, 10, 20 years.
> 
> 6 If you find the roof on the other addition is as mickey mouse as this, will that change your plans on how to deal with this.
> 
> I see a few hundred dollars to make it work , a few hundred more to do it right.



I will take some pics from the attic pointing to the end of the main roof that ends there, and take more pics with different views as well.

Both additions (large season room and small deck) seemed to have passed inspection when done: there are blue prints of both of them online at the local county website. But, I do not know if the small deck roof was part of the deal. This small deck seems to be holding its ground for over 20 years  (unless they did any work in between). The deck does not seems to have shifted and everything seems to be aligned. I poked  the wood posts that go underground and near ground level and none of them seem rotten or bad, but I did not dig; so I will try to dig on spot to see if I can sample the wood below ground.

So, besides the fact that the 2x6 rafters do not have proper support where they meet the 4x4 posts, what would be the major issues regarding the roof deck?

As far as  lifespan of this thing, I can always redo it it in the future. But now, I have too many other things ongoing, so I don't want to spend   much time or money dealing with it. 

In the past I did some repair on the other addition (season room) and posted pics over here. And so far, the repair is holding well. 

thanks!


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## nealtw

The posts in the ground will show rot right at ground level first, if it is good there it might be trusted somewhat, but with out knowing what it is for sure, we just don't know  other than what you know about the load it has been carrying.

I gave you earlier how to insure the fascia doesn't fall off at the house end.
You could just add another 2x6 across the outside making a beam out of that end and thru bolt them to the post And add a couple 2x4s to the post to better support the beam.
That is the quick cheap and easy. I would consider that the new roof will be shorter and then will drop more water near the posts

BUT If you intend to fix this in a year or two there are things you could do so that you don't have tear it down  when that time comes.
There may be a couple approaches to that and still they would not be that big of a deal.

If they have built the other roof like this and I suggest they have, then there is no venting in that area and many will tell you that a closed system with rubber on top does not need venting but the problem is at the bottom of the house roof where it gets very close the to original outside wall and ice damming can occur there and leaks will show up in the main house.


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## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> I gave you earlier how to insure the fascia doesn't fall off at the house end.



What is the frequency of the connector in the photo, in msg. #19.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> What is the frequency of the connector in the photo, in msg. #19.



I would go on both side of each rafter, just to get more nails in there. But we don't know the condition of the rafter tails so?


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## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> I would go on both side of each rafter, just to get more nails in there. But we don't know the condition of the rafter tails so?



So, given that the fascia was probably fastened with 3, or at least 2-16D to the rafter, would it be prudent to add an additional 12 fasteners, which would bring the total to at least 15 fasteners in the end two inches of a rafter tail, the condition of which is unknown.

Keeping in mind that he's attempting to create a walkable surface to mount the solar panels, he describes as quite heavy, will the rafter tails full of nails hold the weight.

He's likely to quadruple the load.

In order to create this walkable surface, he is going to remove the metal, and that leaves the rafters, facia and blocking between a truly walkable surface, and a cheap marginally safe, if and maybe surface.

So why not a ledger lagged to the dwelling and a few new rafters, for a safe walkable surface.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> So, given that the fascia was probably fastened with 3, or at least 2-16D to the rafter, would it be prudent to add an additional 12 fasteners, which would bring the total to at least 15 fasteners in the end two inches of a rafter tail, the condition of which is unknown.
> 
> Keeping in mind that he's attempting to create a walkable surface to mount the solar panels, he describes as quite heavy, will the rafter tails full of nails hold the weight.
> 
> He's likely to quadruple the load.
> 
> In order to create this walkable surface, he is going to remove the metal, and that leaves the rafters, facia and blocking between a truly walkable surface, and a cheap marginally safe, if and maybe surface.
> 
> So why not a ledger lagged to the dwelling and a few new rafters, for a safe walkable surface.


Those hangers only have two nails and yes the condition of the wood will have to be judged.
Other than that, I agree completely.
If it were mine I would ledger to the wall or go up and sit on the wall cut the posts and add a beam, make the new joists longer to match the house  and then when repairs have to be made to the deck, new posts and bearing could be added outboard of the old deck.


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## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> Those hangers only have two nails and yes the condition of the wood will have to be judged.
> Other than that, I agree completely.
> If it were mine I would ledger to the wall or go up and sit on the wall cut the posts and add a beam, make the new joists longer to match the house  and then when repairs have to be made to the deck, new posts and bearing could be added outboard of the old deck.



I've had to many inspectors say,"that's a hole, put a nail in it."

I know I wouldn't want to be the author of a catastrophe of well meant intentions.


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## tk3000

Snoonyb said:


> What is the frequency of the connector in the photo, in msg. #19.



There are two metal brackets on each end of the rafters, thus a total of 4 metal brackets per rafter  connecting both sides of each end of the rafters: two connecting each at the ledger board which is connected to fascia board at the house, and two connected to the 2x4 or 2x6 hanging on the 4x4 posts.

But the brackets at the ledger end seem to provide better support, they seem to be proper rafter hangers.


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## tk3000

nealtw said:


> The posts in the ground will show rot right at ground level first, if it is good there it might be trusted somewhat, but with out knowing what it is for sure, we just don't know  other than what you know about the load it has been carrying.
> 
> I gave you earlier how to insure the fascia doesn't fall off at the house end.
> You could just add another 2x6 across the outside making a beam out of that end and thru bolt them to the post And add a couple 2x4s to the post to better support the beam.
> That is the quick cheap and easy. I would consider that the new roof will be shorter and then will drop more water near the posts
> 
> BUT If you intend to fix this in a year or two there are things you could do so that you don't have tear it down  when that time comes.
> There may be a couple approaches to that and still they would not be that big of a deal.
> 
> If they have built the other roof like this and I suggest they have, then there is no venting in that area and many will tell you that a closed system with rubber on top does not need venting but the problem is at the bottom of the house roof where it gets very close the to original outside wall and ice damming can occur there and leaks will show up in the main house.



Yeah, I try to get some testing done at the posts to see if the bottom part is bad. Hopefully it is not.

So, I will add extra support at both ends (ledger board, there is also a fascia board on the eave to which the ledger board is attached to) in the for m of beams: 2x4 cedar at the posts ends and 2x6 cedar at the ledger board end. I was wondering if cutting notches on the on the lumber to accommodate the rafters would be a good idea? 

Maybe a plate at the post end of the rafters to allow for the installation of a small gutter to divert the water from the ground below? 

I went to the attic which is full of insulation making it difficult to see anything. I took two shots on the end of the roof descending towards the small deck: 







I added a very small amount of vented soffit boards the other roof a long time ago. But I was also concerned about the incoming cold air

thanks!


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## nealtw

Your only concern about cool air should be, do I get enough in there.
In the photo we see some water staining but that doesn't mean there is a problem as it could be old and resolved.
I was hoping to see some proof that, that roof was not built the same way the deck roof was.
The water stain could be caused by ice damming caused by poor structure.

I only question this because I want you to know there could be a problem there and in a few years you may be back asking how to restructure this roof.

So with that said I would push you to take time to at least structure this roof in a way both roofs can be adjusted at the same time later with out adding a lot of money or time. It is just easier to build in a plan.


----------



## tk3000

nealtw said:


> Your only concern about cool air should be, do I get enough in there.
> In the photo we see some water staining but that doesn't mean there is a problem as it could be old and resolved.
> I was hoping to see some proof that, that roof was not built the same way the deck roof was.
> The water stain could be caused by ice damming caused by poor structure.
> 
> I only question this because I want you to know there could be a problem there and in a few years you may be back asking how to restructure this roof.
> 
> So with that said I would push you to take time to at least structure this roof in a way both roofs can be adjusted at the same time later with out adding a lot of money or time. It is just easier to build in a plan.



Yeah, that is a good point. The shingle roof for this house is almost brand new: it was installed in 2010, and overall it looks really good from the outset. Some of the sheathing seems to have been renewed in 2010 as well, but not all of it.   Besides I don't see any sign of mold or water damage there, and it does not feel damp or drench at all. But I will take a closer look. Not only that, I will also install permanent humidity sensor there to keep monitoring it all the time. The following sensors (they will be connected to a computer device which will sample all the time): 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231594180289?rmvSB=true


Anyhow, I will take a closer look tomorrow, but having to swim through  all these loose insulation and not being able to turn my shoulder around due to little clearance is a pain (and some ask me why I haven't finished wiring this house yet...) 

Besides I also want to maybe add some active form of ventilation to mitigate this issue. I found this one at amazon: 

Lomanco BIB-12 MILL Whirlybird Turbine Ventilator

Maybe some form of active ventilation and exhaust (electrical fan)? I remember during the summer when I went to the attic to do something, and it was so hot there that I had to leave right away (if it was 80F outside, it probably was 100F, but I am just guessing here)

Yep, I will follow your recommendation and take  the time to structure the roof and hopefully get it to a good point. But at this moment there is nothing catastrophic happening (leaks and whatnot).  Wouldn't reinforce the small deck roof a good starting point? I want the deck roof to be completely independent from the house roof and simlpy be connected to it by means of a ledger board to support the deck roof (and the deck is opened, so vent. should not be an issue there)

Some extra pics of this part of the attic: 















(note also that it may seem more darker at the end because the flash of the camera phone only goes so far)


thks!


----------



## nealtw

What you are missing, at least we are not seeing is air chutes that bring air from the soffet area so it can run out the box vents or what have you near the ridge.


----------



## nealtw

Don't know why the link won't work, do a google search   solarpowerworldonline.com...shingle-roofs/
there is lots of info there.

I see in an earlier post you said you had assumed everything was built properly, I assume the opposite. Even if we have someones blueprints, inspection sheets and maybe engineers report, we find things that are wrong.

Getting back to your deck. There are things we know and things we don't know.
Things we know.
1. Attachment to the house roof, not the best for the added weight.
2. attachment to the post, ridiculous at best.
3. Strength of rim joist between post, not even close.
Things we don't know.
1.The age and condition of the deck and posts.
2. the quality and depth of the footings if any.

Things I wonder about when looking at a job like this.
1.You answered the first question already, someday you might rebuilt it
2. If we finish it as is, will be able to rebuild it later with out taking it down, NO
3. If the deck, posts, footings do not hold up over time will any of it be easy to fix. NO
4. Can we change the NOs to YESs for a couple hundred dollars YES.


----------



## tk3000

nealtw said:


> What you are missing, at least we are not seeing is air chutes that bring air from the soffet area so it can run out the box vents or what have you near the ridge.



Ok, I see what you mean. The only way to check out is up in the attic by going to the edge of the roof and shoveling some of the insulation away or  maybe from outside by opening the soffits (I guess). I will take the first approach and try to check for the air chutes in the attic, and will report soon. 

On the positive side, the few times I was there I could not find any sign of trapped moisture, mildew, mold stain, or anything; and it seems very dry overall. But I have to look closer. 

But I was wondering... Are the air chutes at the soffits required by code? I would imagine that the air chutes are used to avoid having  all the loose insulation blocking the vent path moving towards the roof sheathing. In case there none in this roof, could I mitigate the circulation issue by other means? 


thks!


----------



## nealtw

Usually, you don't have enough insulation over the wall and the chutes give you air flow while allowing you to fill the rest of the space.
All this is just stuff to consider when designing your deck roof.


----------



## tk3000

nealtw said:


> Don't know why the link won't work, do a google search   solarpowerworldonline.com...shingle-roofs/
> there is lots of info there.
> 
> I see in an earlier post you said you had assumed everything was built properly, I assume the opposite. Even if we have someones blueprints, inspection sheets and maybe engineers report, we find things that are wrong.
> 
> Getting back to your deck. There are things we know and things we don't know.
> Things we know.
> 1. Attachment to the house roof, not the best for the added weight.
> 2. attachment to the post, ridiculous at best.
> 3. Strength of rim joist between post, not even close.
> Things we don't know.
> 1.The age and condition of the deck and posts.
> 2. the quality and depth of the footings if any.
> 
> Things I wonder about when looking at a job like this.
> 1.You answered the first question already, someday you might rebuilt it
> 2. If we finish it as is, will be able to rebuild it later with out taking it down, NO
> 3. If the deck, posts, footings do not hold up over time will any of it be easy to fix. NO
> 4. Can we change the NOs to YESs for a couple hundred dollars YES.



Yeah, you are right, I should   assume nothing. Besides, I have seen so many brand new houses built to supposed higher standards of  material and workmanship suffer from many maladies from the onset. For instance, my sister bought a very nice and almost new (built in 2005) apartment/condo in Chicago,IL, and whenever there is a rain water leaks and drips down from  wood window jambs and frame inside the house (and that is not only one window, but almost all of them). 

Regarding the issues ffacing the small deck roof, I will follow you lead and list: 
1) Ledger Board attaching to house fascia board needs to be reinforced? You said that the " So we will want to remove the soffet install" you mean the plastic/pvc white soffit under the eave. Many small patio roofs are attached to a house via a ledger board affixed to the fascia board. 

2) I got the point that the attachment to the post are a disgrace. It uses simpson L30 angle   bracket to connect the  rafters   to a 2x6 connected to the posts; shouldn't it use a rafter hanger instead? Wouldn't a 2x4 with notches to seat the rafters in connected to the posts offer more support. Difficult to use diagonal braces due to clearance issue 

I looked under the deck and while I can not be sure there is sign of rotting. I assume that the underground portion of the posts are surrounded by concrete, but I will dig a little to try to check any further. 

I am all  ears, and up to the task of spending a couple of 100s to properly address it  (assuming the posts are ok, etc). 

thks


----------



## tk3000

On the subject of the mounting system for solar panels on a shingle roof,
 understandably, I am concerned about drilling dozens of holes through the shingles and inside the sheathing now and in the long run. Most solutions include a set brackets for each panel or a rail system (for not so small arrays). I do not trust the sealant alone, and wish to use some flashing material; like the following: 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380875027927

The problem is that the above item is an over expensive contraption. After all, aluminum flashing foil is relatively cheap and will help divert any water from running down there. Even though I have used aluminum welding many years ago (aluminum welding rods + propane) on something I was doing in a motorcycle I would need a perfect smooth surface in this scenario, so the welding would not be an option. So, I was looking for a viable simple solution instead of this overexpesive simple contraption.


----------



## nealtw

Let's be clear, I don't know enough about mounting the panels to do much more than comment.


----------



## nealtw

So to be clear my plan for the deck will use the old posts but every think above that will be replace.
It will have a ledger bolted to the house wall below the level of the fascia, a double 2x10 full length beam will sit on top of the posts and the new joists will be long enough to reach out to match the other roof.
We can build in a 2" slope to the outside.

Advantages.
Any leaks will only effect the deck roof, not causing any problems with house roof.
Ease of holding it up if or when the deck need repairs or replacement.
Easy to add a new slope to both roofs if and when you want to improve the structure.
Structure against the house will be strong enough to take the weight going on the roof.

If you agree with this we will need some measurement before you do anything.


----------



## tk3000

nealtw said:


> So to be clear my plan for the deck will use the old posts but every think above that will be replace.
> It will have a ledger bolted to the house wall below the level of the fascia, a double 2x10 full length beam will sit on top of the posts and the new joists will be long enough to reach out to match the other roof.
> We can build in a 2" slope to the outside.
> 
> Advantages.
> Any leaks will only effect the deck roof, not causing any problems with house roof.
> Ease of holding it up if or when the deck need repairs or replacement.
> Easy to add a new slope to both roofs if and when you want to improve the structure.
> Structure against the house will be strong enough to take the weight going on the roof.
> 
> If you agree with this we will need some measurement before you do anything.



Interesting plan, I like it. But measurements and dimensions are decisive in this situation, and the height of the deck is rather low so if the ledger board was to be bolted to the house (concrete wall) the roof deck vertical clearance would be extremely low. Couldn't a large slope and extra flashing isolate mostly any standing still and infiltrate moisture at the ledger board?


----------



## nealtw

tk3000 said:


> Interesting plan, I like it. But measurements and dimensions are decisive in this situation, and the height of the deck is rather low so if the ledger board was to be bolted to the house (concrete wall) the roof deck vertical clearance would be extremely low. Couldn't a large slope and extra flashing isolate mostly any standing still and infiltrate moisture at the ledger board?



Height from deck to top of windows or door which ever is highest.
Height from deck to top of trim over same window or door?
height from deck to bottom of fascia 
Width and length of lower deck
Over hang measurements for the main roof back over deck back of addition, side of addition over deck, and side of main roof.

Simpsons never give up before they try one easy thing.:rofl:


----------



## tk3000

nealtw said:


> Height from deck to top of windows or door which ever is highest.
> Height from deck to top of trim over same window or door?
> height from deck to bottom of fascia
> Width and length of lower deck
> Over hang measurements for the main roof back over deck back of addition, side of addition over deck, and side of main roof.
> 
> Simpsons never give up before they try one easy thing.:rofl:



The lower deck itself is above ground (as can been seen by some of the pics). There is no much of a trim on the exterior of the window.  

Height from top of window to lower deck: 68.5"
Height from lower deck to top of fascia board: 78"
Overhang measurement (depth): 18.5" 

Overall length of lower deck: 167" 
Overall width of lower deck: 118.5"

That should give you an idea. Some of the measurements are not very clear for me, let me know if you need any extra data! But it would be very difficult and impractical to affix another ledger board to the mains exterior concrete wall due to the clearance.


----------



## nealtw

tk3000 said:


> The lower deck itself is above ground (as can been seen by some of the pics). There is no much of a trim on the exterior of the window.
> 
> Height from top of window to lower deck: 68.5"
> Height from lower deck to top of fascia board: 78"
> Overhang measurement (depth): 18.5"
> 
> Overall length of lower deck: 167"
> Overall width of lower deck: 118.5"
> 
> That should give you an idea. Some of the measurements are not very clear for me, let me know if you need any extra data! But it would be very difficult and impractical to affix another ledger board to the mains exterior concrete wall due to the clearance.



OK then, I was expecting the the top of the window to be 82". So you are right that just won't work.
So now we are back to the mickey mouse stuff where we started. 

Pull down the vinyl soffet and inspect the fascia and the liner behind it for rot and if you are happy with that install the hangers I posted earlier add more nails or screws between the fascia and liner.
On the out side add another 2x6 to the outside one to make that a beam and 
Cut the railing out enough to install 2 treated 2x4 to each post to support the beam.
I would cover that with 5/8 construction grade plywood.
Plywood because OSB will swell up if or when it gets wet.
"H" clips are put on the edge of roof sheeting so the sheets don't bend independently when you walk on them. One clip in the middle between 2 joists.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> I know I wouldn't want to be the author of a catastrophe of well meant intentions.



Anything you want to add to my last post?:hide:


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> Anything you want to add to my last post?:hide:



The OP has referred to the building as being concrete.

Photo #2 of MSG #35 background is a CMU wall.

Is this at the site and is this a CMU building?

Despite the reluctance..............

I'm still of the mind to pull the existing roof structure and fascia off, remove the soffit material, using the existing rafters as ledgers, lag them into the house wall with the top 5" below the rafter/wall intersection.

The attic ventilation can also be addressed than as well.


----------



## nealtw

If he does want to redo it later it will still have to come down again, but I don't disagree. His choice.


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> If he does want to redo it later it will still have to come down again, but I don't disagree. His choice.



And to a broader point, with a header height of 68", where is the access to this deck?

If the rafters are not butted too and hung from the support beam, what is the value of a limited panorama, usually enjoyed.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> And to a broader point, with a header height of 68", where is the access to this deck?
> 
> If the rafters are not butted too and hung from the support beam, what is the value of a limited panorama, usually enjoyed.



Strong argument for concrete deck. I wondered about the door too.


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> Strong argument for concrete deck. I wondered about the door too.



Unfortunately, we're probably speculating beyond the OP's budget.


----------



## tk3000

nealtw said:


> OK then, I was expecting the the top of the window to be 82". So you are right that just won't work.
> So now we are back to the mickey mouse stuff where we started.
> 
> Pull down the vinyl soffet and inspect the fascia and the liner behind it for rot and if you are happy with that install the hangers I posted earlier add more nails or screws between the fascia and liner.
> On the out side add another 2x6 to the outside one to make that a beam and
> Cut the railing out enough to install 2 treated 2x4 to each post to support the beam.
> I would cover that with 5/8 construction grade plywood.
> Plywood because OSB will swell up if or when it gets wet.
> "H" clips are put on the edge of roof sheeting so the sheets don't bend independently when you walk on them. One clip in the middle between 2 joists.



I took a peek inside the soffits and at first it seems there is a primed/painted wood board there in good shape. 

Looking up online, it seems that the abherration of the small flat roof on the small deck is similar to this: 







The outside beam are not under the rafters (in my case there is not even proper metal hardware hanger support in the exterior part).

The exterior beam would have to be below the rafters in order to provide proper support. Using a 2x6 pressure treated lumber with notches coinciding with the position of the rafters as the following sketch: 

--------     -------------     ---------------     -------------   ------
|                                                                                   |
|                                                                                   |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

would help, so the rafter would be seating there inside the notches. 

I also prefer plywood, I just happened to have some osb laying around. Yeah, I will probably buying 1/2" plywood for the sheathing.


----------



## tk3000

Snoonyb said:


> The OP has referred to the building as being concrete.
> 
> Photo #2 of MSG #35 background is a CMU wall.
> 
> Is this at the site and is this a CMU building?
> 
> Despite the reluctance..............
> 
> I'm still of the mind to pull the existing roof structure and fascia off, remove the soffit material, using the existing rafters as ledgers, lag them into the house wall with the top 5" below the rafter/wall intersection.
> 
> The attic ventilation can also be addressed than as well.



Yeah, the main house exterior walls are all made out of cmu. 

In spite of not being a propery roof structure for sheathing and having very improper outside support beam, there is nothing there rotten or with signs of falling apart. With better reinforcement, it may endure safely for many years. 

thks!


----------



## tk3000

nealtw said:


> If he does want to redo it later it will still have to come down again, but I don't disagree. His choice.



Yeah, nothing is eternal.. I know that this one is far from eternal,  but I just want to make it much better now (even though it still is far from ideal)


----------



## tk3000

Snoonyb said:


> And to a broader point, with a header height of 68", where is the access to this deck?
> 
> If the rafters are not butted too and hung from the support beam, what is the value of a limited panorama, usually enjoyed.



A 2x6 beam would restrict the view too, and that's part of the reason to have notches on the beam. 

I will post my pics of the deck and the door from the allseason room for the deck soon. The lower deck itself is well above grade/ground, but the door from the all season room is not; and there is a    small section of concrete slab between the between the all season room door and the deck.


----------



## Snoonyb

tk3000 said:


> A 2x6 beam would restrict the view too, and that's part of the reason to have notches on the beam.



Not any more than what is existing, however, "If the rafters are not *butted too and hung from the support beam*", which, depending upon the beam you employ will not further obstruct the view. To determine this you have only to review the patio standards you said were on line.

Adding tails to create an overhang is just a matter of connectors.

As for notching the beam, besides further limiting the view by the amount below the notch, you substantially compromise the beam, so unless you pay an eng., narrows the post spacing. 



tk3000 said:


> I will post my pics of the deck and the door from the allseason room for the deck soon. The lower deck itself is well above grade/ground, but the door from the all season room is not; and there is a    small section of concrete slab between the between the all season room door and the deck.



Are you aware that the tread nose to head h eight is 6'8"?

Are you aware of Murphy's Law, and where, *wouldn't*, you like to be, if it did not, like you say it *may*.

Take the time to protect yourself, do the roof correctly.


----------



## tk3000

Snoonyb said:


> Not any more than what is existing, however, "If the rafters are not *butted too and hung from the support beam*", which, depending upon the beam you employ will not further obstruct the view. To determine this you have only to review the patio standards you said were on line.
> 
> Adding tails to create an overhang is just a matter of connectors.
> 
> As for notching the beam, besides further limiting the view by the amount below the notch, you substantially compromise the beam, so unless you pay an eng., narrows the post spacing.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you aware that the tread nose to head h eight is 6'8"?
> 
> Are you aware of Murphy's Law, and where, *wouldn't*, you like to be, if it did not, like you say it *may*.
> 
> Take the time to protect yourself, do the roof correctly.




At a slow pace the reinforcement project for this small roof has started. Firstly, by the use of a small hydraulic jack (bottle jack)+ 4x4 lumber an extra temporary support for the rafter is made (and note that the rafters are also given support by the other rafters by means of 2x6 noggings/blocks), as shown below: 






So, at first I am simply installing proper rafter hangers instead of angle brackets that were installed before. 

&#8220; Adding tails to create an overhang is just a matter of connectors.&#8221; : you mean by adding small sister rafters (or extensions). Actually, I wanted to add  a gutter there so a fascia board and a small overhang 
would be useful.

&#8220;Are you aware that the tread nose to head h eight is 6'8"?&#8221; : not clear what you mean by &#8220;tread nose&#8221; here. Overall height from lower deck floor to rafters? 

Below is another pic showing an opening for a door (currently boarded) and the a previous window that was sealed because of a bathroom (privacy issues I would assume).






But it is not clear for me how best approach the installation of two 2x4s and one 2x6 support beam for the rafters facing the posts. 

Thks!


----------



## nealtw

The 2x6 on the outside should be doubled to make it a beam. just nailing another on the outside will do.
The posts should be directly under that two ply beam.Adding 2x4s to the outside of the post will make that work.
Nudging is solid blocking between joist in the center  if the span is more than seven feet.


----------



## Snoonyb

A stairway is defined as a set of steps or passageway leading from one level to another.


50. HEADROOM. Section R311.7.2 IRC 2009 R311.7.2 Headroom. The minimum headroom in all parts of the stairway shall not be less than 6 feet 8 inches (2032 mm) measured vertically from the sloped line adjoining the tread nosing or from the floor surface of the landing or platform on that portion of the stairway.


----------



## nealtw

So to get the height needed to add a proper beam to the outside, you would have to remove the overhang of the house roof and put the ledger against the wall up high.
But then your roof will be higher than the addition next to it,


----------



## nealtw

Would it not be easier to just build a shed in the back yard to take these panels.


----------



## Snoonyb

Well, how about this hypothetical; The dwelling is a slab on grade with the deck "legally" added, (however, with a floor level of the deck, 14" above the floor level of the slab, as evidenced by the 68" from deck to window hdr.), whose only reasonable access is an,"over the river and through the woods", trip through another addition.

Compounding bad results, is just that.

I'd do the roof correctly, take the deck apart and lower it on a treated lumber panelized support system.

To maintain some level of architectural consistency.


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> So to get the height needed to add a proper beam to the outside, you would have to remove the overhang of the house roof and put the ledger against the wall up high.
> But then your roof will be higher than the addition next to it,



Actually what I wanted the OP to be aware of, is the eventuality, where a prospective buyer, asks for building permits, finds that there is none for the improvements and begins negotiating from there.

However, to no avail, because the OP appears to be so invested in the failed solar policy, that doing it over, is better than doing it right.


----------



## tk3000

nealtw said:


> Would it not be easier to just build a shed in the back yard to take these panels.



Actually, after so much fuss I decided to mount the solar panels elsewhere since this deck roof is sort of precarious even with the reinforcement. But, still, I want to make it better and will reinforce it. Besides there are also trees obstructing the the incidence of light there.


----------



## tk3000

Snoonyb said:


> Actually what I wanted the OP to be aware of, is the eventuality, where a prospective buyer, asks for building permits, finds that there is none for the improvements and begins negotiating from there.
> 
> However, to no avail, because the OP appears to be so invested in the failed solar policy, that doing it over, is better than doing it right.



First off, I have no intention to sell the property. 96% of people don't buy permits unless they are building something anew (therefore I am not alone). I still have to find someone who would ask for building permits (for what?) in order to buy a house? Moreover, I am not the one who build the roof for this deck.


----------



## nealtw

tk3000 said:


> Actually, after so much fuss I decided to mount the solar panels elsewhere since this deck roof is sort of precarious even with the reinforcement. But, still, I want to make it better and will reinforce it. Besides there are also trees obstructing the the incidence of light there.



It looks like you have lots on your plate, when you get things under control come back to the roof over the addition. Just to make sure there are no problems there.


----------



## tk3000

Snoonyb said:


> Well, how about this hypothetical; The dwelling is a slab on grade with the deck "legally" added, (however, with a floor level of the deck, 14" above the floor level of the slab, as evidenced by the 68" from deck to window hdr.), whose only reasonable access is an,"over the river and through the woods", trip through another addition.
> 
> Compounding bad results, is just that.
> 
> I'd do the roof correctly, take the deck apart and lower it on a treated lumber panelized support system.
> 
> To maintain some level of architectural consistency.




I believe that both the small deck and the allseason room (much larger) were added more or less at the same time. The house itself has about 2450 sq ft: about half of the house is on a mixture of crawlspace and basement, the other half is on a slab and is actually below grade (which probably helps to the floor temp in check) but comes with water infiltration issues.  Allseason room is on a slab on grade, and I am starting to believe that the small deck is at least partially seating on a concrete slab . 

I would do the deck correctly, but as of now it is holding its ground well: nothing is rotten, falling apart, loose, failing. So, it is not a priority at this moment. I stained it sometime ago, and now I will make much stronger (without the extra load of the panels over there). 

As far as the lower vertical clearance of the deck itself, I am a short person so it does affect me in any way. 

thks!


----------



## Snoonyb

Well then, allow me to introduce you to some realtor norms.




tk3000 said:


> First off, I have no intention to sell the property.



So you are aware that a dwelling reaches its max. real-estate value at 50yrs. and for purposes of appraisal, there after becomes a property value.



tk3000 said:


> 96% of people don't buy permits unless they are building something anew (therefore I am not alone).



Ethics and integrity, are what you do, even in the dark.



tk3000 said:


> I still have to find someone who would ask for building permits (for what?) in order to buy a house?



I'll let the roof over the deck be the example of, "(for what)"!

The reason is, to avoid circumstances of being relegated to ASSuming it's your non negotiable responsibility to simply buy a pig in a polk and fix it.



tk3000 said:


> Moreover, I am not the one who build the roof for this deck.



And because you didn't ask for permits, you find yourself with the responsibility.


----------



## tk3000

Well then, allow me to introduce you to some realtor norms.




So you are aware that a dwelling reaches its max. real-estate value at 50yrs. and for purposes of appraisal, there after becomes a property value.



Ethics and integrity, are what you do, even in the dark.

=> It clearly has nothing to do with ethics and integrity, but with extortion based on the most minimal and minimalist thing possible ( heck there is even a permit to change a valve for a shower head). By the way, there is something called private property and constitutional rights that superseed local ordinances and laws that often are unconstitutional anyways. 


I'll let the roof over the deck be the example of, "(for what)"!

The reason is, to avoid circumstances of being relegated to ASSuming it's your non negotiable responsibility to simply buy a pig in a polk and fix it.



And because you didn't ask for permits, you find yourself with the responsibility

=> I already addressed this point. And, if by any chance, anyone from the city try to trespass into my property, then it's a crime. Secondly, if they commit this crime and decide to ask for any permit one would simply sue them for discrimination due to the fact that statically speaking almost nobody pull and pay for permits in these situations (with exceptions of businesses, hotels, etc, due to liability)

=> In terms of realtors, they are nothing but unnecessary, needless, parasites whom add no value to the chain of value and therefore have no reason to exist.


----------



## Snoonyb

And you shall remain, ever relegated to your naivety.


----------



## tk3000

Sorry for the lack of continuation for this thread... I will try to bring it closure soon and end this job. 

Well, I am still working on this deck roofing thing after some time in absence. The idea is to make it better and more water proof than before along with adding extra support. Not panels will the mounted there, I will relocate the panels elsewhere. 

I add the beam for extra support for the rafters, and also proper bracket to connect the rafters to the post. And some of the corrugated roof panels were removed. I painted the 1/2 plywood panels and will eventually install them over there. Below are some pics showcasing it:


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## tk3000

I plan on using shims to help in creating a pitch for the flat roof. Also painted the 1/2" plywood sheathing to added protection. Would wood shims be appropriate in this case? 
thks


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## slownsteady

Where are you planning to put the shims??


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## tk3000

slownsteady said:


> Where are you planning to put the shims??



Well, I would rather have a continuous long shim add to the upper surface of the raters; or maybe planing a board to different thickness? At first, I was considering putting the shims atop of the rafters and under the sheathing: it is just easier to adjust the height of the shims by adding and removing then at different points and thus help to create a pitch for the flat roof. There is the transition from the shingle roof (main house) to the upper deck of the addition that also would help to create a pitch but the plywood board are not continuous so I still would need to add something to help the continuation of the roof pitch.


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## slownsteady

If you shim on top of the rafters, will you be creating hollow spots under the sheathing? I imagine that you can have a continuous 'shim' the length of the rafter, but there should be a better way (easier) way.


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## nealtw

It's not fun but I have cut full length tapers.
If you can cut one really nice on off the side of a 2x6 you can use a fence to cut the second then tack one to the other side and with a fence cut a third and so on.


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## tk3000

slownstead: yeah, that would be lots of work especially with my tiny small table saw. I can cut a small board at an angle, but a 12ft lumber is not possible. To make things worse there are several 12ft 2x6 making up the upper frame. 

Nealtw:  how to make the first one would be the main issue. And even to make replicas would be rather complicated  and difficult to cut anything of that length and weight in my small light weight table saw.

I want something that I can glue and nail to the top face of the rafters in order to create a continuous pitch. Can't I buy anything premade? Or maybe go ahead with ordinary shims however bad it may be? 

Thks!


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## slownsteady

Why not shim on the underside of the rafters at the top? That way you can affect the pitch without creating gaps between the rafters and the sheathing.


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## tk3000

slownsteady said:


> Why not shim on the underside of the rafters at the top? That way you can affect the pitch without creating gaps between the rafters and the sheathing.



Hmm... You to change the level of the rafters where they meet the ledger board at the main house? Yeah, that could be a much easier way of addressing this issue but probably there is no enough room on the ledger board to affect the pitch in a meaningful way. Last time I checked with a level, the rafters are mostly level. I will double check to make sure whether or not there is enough room to manuever. 

Should have though through this thing because the starting out...


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## nealtw

tk3000 said:


> Hmm... You to change the level of the rafters where they meet the ledger board at the main house? Yeah, that could be a much easier way of addressing this issue but probably there is no enough room on the ledger board to affect the pitch in a meaningful way. Last time I checked with a level, the rafters are mostly level. I will double check to make sure whether or not there is enough room to manuever.
> 
> Should have though through this thing because the starting out...



How much would you like to raise the roof?


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## tk3000

nealtw said:


> How much would you like to raise the roof?



That may be another conundrum... I believe that the  minimum slope for a flat roof by building code here is 2%. (1/4" per 1'), the board length is about 12 ft and I only have about 1.5" of clearance between the rafters and the house's shingle roof, and since the plywood sheathing itself is about 1/2", it leaves me with 1" for the slope (which is much less than 1/4" per ft). 

But I am still in the quest of having any slope in lieu of nothing, and somebody mentioned ISO board with some this week; more specifically tapered iso boards which should go below the epdm membrane. Does that sound like a possible solution?


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## nealtw

That would be the quick and easy way to get a slope, foam over plywood but 1% with 1" top end would run out at 100".
The cheaper way would be just to lift the rafters at the top end.
http://www.modulrts.com/webcura/files/243763_tapered_polyiso_system.pdf


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## tk3000

nealtw said:


> That would be the quick and easy way to get a slope, foam over plywood but 1% with 1" top end would run out at 100".
> The cheaper way would be just to lift the rafters at the top end.
> http://www.modulrts.com/webcura/files/243763_tapered_polyiso_system.pdf



Yeah, I am leaning towards lift the rafters at the where the connect to the house ledger board. It is about 12 ft of length from the ledger at the house till the posts in the other end, so 1"/12' = 0.0083 which is close to 1%

At the ledger board end the rafter are held by nails (which is a pain to remove) and brackets. Would it be ok to simply remove the nails from the ledger board/house end and lift the ratfters at that end and leave the end of the rafters attached to the posts (currently it is attached to a 2x6 beam which is connected to the posts) alone (in other words don't remove the screws and bracket at the posts end)? 

thks!


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## nealtw

tk3000 said:


> Yeah, I am leaning towards lift the rafters at the where the connect to the house ledger board. It is about 12 ft of length from the ledger at the house till the posts in the other end, so 1"/12' = 0.0083 which is close to 1%
> 
> At the ledger board end the rafter are held by nails (which is a pain to remove) and brackets. Would it be ok to simply remove the nails from the ledger board/house end and lift the ratfters at that end and leave the end of the rafters attached to the posts (currently it is attached to a 2x6 beam which is connected to the posts) alone (in other words don't remove the screws and bracket at the posts end)?
> 
> thks!



That would be my plan, But you want to make sure they will flex, you may still have to remove some screws at the other end


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