# Weird land survey



## Jungle (Oct 4, 2013)

You might remember my other thread about property lines. I decieded to get a survey done as to settle the matter with the neighbour. I called around a few places, i was thinking to avoid the 'in town' surveyors, i called one place and they recommended the 'in town' place.
They said it would be about 3 hours @ 150$ so i'm think $500 is okay. I don't hear from them for a while so they say they are trying to fit me in. Then one day some truck is out front, i don't notice much but them eating lunch. I did ask them to let me know when they come. About an hour later i hear the guys yells something or other and i realize they are the surveyors. From what i could tell they weren't doing much. 
After 3 hours of them looking busy they finally put the stakes in, i was shocked to see it was worse than i had imagined, they are giving them 1 foot around their shed!  Then he says something about squatting rights and last property to register. He says they have 54', 4' extra by the deed, which is what i thought. Then he says but them have right of use or something. Then i explain how the other owner used their driveway to get to the back of the house to park, due to the big tree in the way of the drive way.
Then he says they have to check with the office and i should not build a fence or anything based on the stakes. So a few weeks go by and i email them and send them the maps i have from the aboutmyproperty.com  They finally email me again saying not to build a fence. Then i notice the stakes are gone.
Now about 3 weeks later i get an email form them saying i own 950$ and they will send me the full report when they get payment. WTF?
I don't feel like paying for this crap survey. I just ask them a simple question if the neighbours shed was over the line. Why do they become the court, lawyers and jury? I wonder if they will put a lean on the house? Is their some way to fight them? I never signed any contract agreement. I have no idea what they are charging me for, a survey of the line based on squatting? The previous owner used their driveway to access the back so the space should be 50/50


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## nealtw (Oct 4, 2013)

I would go talk to the head guy in their office about the bill. As far as the other stuff, they are not the final word, that would still be up to the courts but they will give their best advice if they can.
Did they put in steel stakes?


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## Jungle (Oct 5, 2013)

They put the stakes in when did the survey, then a week later they took them out. When he put them in said, don't put the fence up until the surveyor in the office checks everything. Strange, like i said. The guy was saying things like, 'well you just flipping the house? You go back to Toronto today?" etc.' you want to get along with your neighbours...' which i thought was weird. 
Basically i think it is a good old boys club and it was a big mistake to hiring someone locally. They are just like every other company i have dealt with up here, childish scammers who think it is open season from people from TO. 
I should have just put the fence up and let them take me to court, which they wouldn't do since they are cheap and broke people.
The emailed he sent with the invoice and he said once i sent payment they would give me the full report, and i guess put the stakes back in. I don't think they will change the stakes any further, if they put the stakes on the deed line, sure i would be happy to pay.

 It is a complete waste of time and money because they just put it where anyone would guess the line is. What are they doing for 3.5 hours, two guys? Just wasting time. I can understand if they put it on the deed line but this is just sort of what they think it should be. They could have just told me, hey they have squatting rights for the shed and charged me one hour would be fair.

Like i said Stan used THEIR driveway for years to access the back, i just don't understand how i can lose the driveway now,  there is only 8 ft left for anyone to drive a car back there which isn't enough.

I think i am just going to ignore it and put up a metal fence, so the neibs don't destroy it. If they keep on trying to bill me i will report them to BBB and open a complain. Since i have no survey and stakes, how can they bill me?  Also no signed contract of service.


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## nealtw (Oct 5, 2013)

I found this and it seams to disagree with your guys, unless there is an easement. Likely your neigbours removed the pins, did they pin all four corners of your lot?
http://www.brazeauseller.com/articles/28/1/2013/345.aspx


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## Jungle (Oct 6, 2013)

That is interesting, sounds like with the electronic titles the squator right end too.

The holes are still fresh, so nobody stamped them out, i put  stick in the hole, it's still there. It's the exact same place i put the temp fence. I guess i have will have to call this surveyor see what he says. There seems to be some issue on the other side of the property with 'an extra 2 feet of land' which would be in the other neighbours front lawn. Basically he said the 50' maybe 52' maybe it is worth the money to get an extra 2 feet on the other side, his lawn is all open anyways, i think is not very pretty to have fence on an angle. There is a gas pipe there so it not like i could put a drive way on that side.


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## nealtw (Oct 6, 2013)

I would think that the surveyor is a little afraid of being called for court as a witness for property fight. So I would think you want to know what your rights and your niehbours rights are before you talk to them and I would not build a fence before talking to them.
 Perhaps if they are looking at having a fence there they might be interesting in renting a couple feet and you would feel better about having a fence well in on your side of the line.
The surveyor used a city site plan to no where to find your property and the shape of it and you should be able to get a copy of that from the city, they also use pins located in the subdivision to start from and in older areas sometime, they have to survey some distance and take some time to find legal pins.
That site map should be part of the package if you pay the bill.


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## mudmixer (Oct 6, 2013)

Jungle -

Was the surveyor a Registered Land Surveyor or just a guy with a transit?

He should have looked at the legal description and went off a known point with a back sight to determine bearings and locations of the corners.

Dick

Dick


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## Jungle (Mar 13, 2014)

He's was registered surveyor. I didn't pay the bill and haven't heard from them so i assume it is forgotten. There is a complaint board i think they don't want to deal with.

The problem is they did all this research over the simple question of the shed. They should have just said the shed has squatting rights, that where the property line is, if you want i can do the whole property for $x,xxx.... instead they tried to jam me with a high price for a simple question. What were they surveying for 3 hours? Nothing, a line beside the shed that never existed. A squatter line.

Now I still have to the fence on the other side to complete, not only that but the  back neighbor has put his fence 2 feet over, if you can believe it. That is according to the old surveys notes, but since i never paid i never got the notes.
So now the new survey i found will charge $500 for the two left side corner property pins. Or $1000 for all four pins, or $1300 with documentation. 
With the left neighbor there is no fence only grass but apparently in the deed i get another 2 feet. Again i don't have the notes. It's another weird thing with the property and better to have a survey. I figure $500 is worth it.
Now i wonder with the back neighbor who just sneaked in the fence last October, he should be libel to me for the survey fee if his fence is over the line?  I think it's safe to say most of the neighbors are tricky like this around here.:hide:
I am thinking to go over and make him sign an agreement that if his fence is over the line he will pay the survey fee. If he doesn't sign the agreement means he just wasting my time.


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## Wuzzat? (Mar 13, 2014)

When we bought the house we were given a plat.  

Based on that I thought the neighbor to the east was not mowing all of his lawn and that he was a jerk.  

Then the neighbor on the other side showed me his plat and it disagreed with my plat.  

So I went to the courthouse and found two plats.  

Then I rented a metal detector and found three of the four iron posts which were now 2" underground after 50 years.  

So I wrote a letter to the licensing agency about the lack of Due Diligence of the surveyor on the first plat, but heard nothing.  Methinks the regulators are buddies with those to be regulated.
[ame]http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=theory+of+capture&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8[/ame]

BTW, the neighbor to the east is still a jerk, possibly due to

"(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations"  

His wife too, so maybe this is a 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_à_deux


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## bud16415 (Mar 13, 2014)

I think you need a lawyer more than a surveyor and I didn&#8217;t think I would ever say those words let alone give that advice. 

Around here almost all lending institutions will require all this in advance of a loan, just as they would look for attachments on the property and no sale would go thru until everything came back clean.


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## beachguy005 (Mar 14, 2014)

You need to find out what the property rights are for your state. Adverse possession, aka 'squatters rights" varies quite a bit state by state. Fence location is usually governed by local building codes.  Some allow them on the property line and some require setbacks off the property line. I went through this before and it gets expensive if it goes to court. Always get a survey before buying, especially if there are obvious encroachments on a property.


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## slownsteady (Mar 14, 2014)

From various comments in this thread, I get the impression that you are viewed as an outsider by many of the locals...or you may be unnecessarily defensive. Did you just parachute into this community or did you scope it out before buying? And why did you buy there?

Now don't get me wrong. You have a right to defend your boundaries, but the local culture seems a lot more casual than what you expected.

Also, be careful about how much you invest in that fence. Even a metal fence can be damaged, defaced or destroyed. May be better to just plant a row of thorny roses along the driveway.


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## nealtw (Mar 14, 2014)

It still sounds a bit hooky but if you can get to where you are sure you are right and the land should be yours. At that point you could go to a laywer anjd he will charge you $X and tell you how difficult it might be but if you give him a retainer of $X he will start looking into it and then you have to decide whether it is worth the fight when yoiu may are may not win in court and the cost of the case could be more than the land is worth.
Or you gather up a few friends and in one busy day you pick up the shed and move it and build a solid fence down the propety line. Now the nieghbour has to pay for survey and pay a laywer and make the tough decissios.


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## Wuzzat? (Mar 15, 2014)

Nolo Press has at least one book on "neighbor law".  Your library might have it.


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## nealtw (Mar 17, 2014)

http://www.justanswer.com/law/100iv-neighbors-shed-property-six-feet-tried.html


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## slownsteady (Mar 17, 2014)

just a thought: If you bought the house recently and there was no "irregularities" found in the title search, then you should have no problem getting this issue straightened out legally.

On the other hand, if it has been passed into the deed, and you (or your lawyer, or your realtor) didn't notice it before the closing, then you may be SOL.

Of course, I am assuming that you bought the property recently, because this is the kind of dispute that doesn't just pop up all of a sudden....


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## Jungle (Apr 2, 2014)

Unfortunately there seems to be some 'squatting' type of rules i am starting to think the surveys are probably right about it at least in the sense it would not be worth the effort. I asked the surveyor at the time how it could be possible i could lose 5' that they could have 55' and me only 45'  What he said was that i can still claim 50' going the other way. I had sort of forgot about that, because now i will have problem with that guy. Since there is no fence on the left side of the house, it is all open.

 The other thing is there are 'unique' features of the property, means there is 2' extra feet allowed for some reason at the time. So what i gather is that i can measure 52' from the new property line they drew. I can see this old man is going to freak out because he's losing about 7'. But he was there at the time last year when the surveyor came and agreed about the 2'.  

I wonder if can anyone access the land deeds?  It would be good idea, i take  it all you need is the property number? Has anyone done it? Considering the expense of land surveys it seems better to just put the fence up as best as i can because even with a survey nobody is gonna happy.


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## Jungle (Apr 2, 2014)

Just got off the phone, land office search is $8 per property. I don't know why i didn't think of this before!:beer:


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## slownsteady (Apr 2, 2014)

Jungle said:


> Just got off the phone, land office search is $8 per property. I don't know why i didn't think of this before!:beer:



Seems like that's the place to go next.:


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## Wuzzat? (Apr 2, 2014)

Jungle said:


> I wonder if can anyone access the land deeds?


You'd be surprised what is in the public record.

I had a crooked attorney who let slip that I and anyone could go to the courthouse and look up the divorce hearing transcripts & records of another crooked attorney.  
Those records were 4" thick and that second crook was not happy that I now had something on him besides just my opinion.  He promptly lied to a judge to get those records sealed.

My mortgage company is trying to bluff me out of at least $50 and I had to take a trip to the courthouse so I had the knowledge to block their attempt.


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## beachguy005 (Apr 3, 2014)

A proper survey is the best way to go.  When it's done you can get the certified copy which shows boundaries and location of buildings relative to those boundaries.
You'll probably upset a neighbor or two but you're the one paying taxes on the property...all of it.
It can also prevent issues if you decide to sell in the future.  You don't want to lose a sale because of potential boundary disputes. 
I would even tell your neighbors that you want the issue resolved because you're considering putting your property on the market.  Even if you never do.


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## carnuck (Apr 11, 2014)

Sell the property to the squatters and move on or get serious about kissing butt because it sounds like you're in a town that they are all related to your neighbor.


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## Jungle (Apr 12, 2014)

I think the best solution is to file in small claims before you do anything, it only cost $160. That way the judge will hold the case and order that the survey costs are split. Why should i pay $1000 for a survey when it is the neighbors fault? At this point the bully neighbor is likely to back off, rather than risk paying the high survey fees. At worst case i lose $160, but it is really a fee for someone else to mediate this situation  which is worth it.


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## Wuzzat? (Apr 12, 2014)

In my on-and-off involvement with *THE LAW* I happened upon this story.

Two guys found a clam on a beach and argued over who it belongs to.
The law comes walking along the beach and so they each make their case.  Each had a good case for ownership.
The law opens the clam, gives each one half the shell and then eats the meat.


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## slownsteady (Apr 12, 2014)

> Two guys found a clam on a beach and argued over who it belongs to.
> The law comes walking along the beach and so they each make their case. Each had a good case for ownership.
> The law opens the clam, gives each one half the shell and then eats the meat.



Was that THE LAW or just THE LAWYER?


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## Wuzzat? (Apr 13, 2014)

slownsteady said:


> Was that THE LAW or just THE LAWYER?



I've been taken to the cleaners, and defrauded, by both, some of whom acted illegally without punishment, and probably without fear of punishment.

At least with some of them I was so tenacious that they were pretty mad at me at the end, and at least one lawyer was terrified.   A Pyrrhic victory, if a victory at all.

Probably I've enriched the legal profession by $20K or $30K, over decades.

A lawyer in a foreign film I saw said that, The law is not concerned with the truth, it is concerned with what can be proved, and a lawyer at the gym where I work out more or less confirmed this statement.


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## oldognewtrick (Apr 13, 2014)

Wuzzat? said:


> The law is not concerned with the truth, it is concerned with what can be proved, and a lawyer at the gym where I work out more or less confirmed this statement.




Sad to say, but after this past year, I agree. We had to sue 2 customers who didn't pay for their roof installations. We won both suits. Cost about 25k so far in legal fees and haven't got a penny yet. The whole process seems to be about protecting the deadbeats and not the honest citizen. My whole faith in the judicial system has been greatly challenged. At least one of the theifs had their house sold on the court house steps, their furniture moved to the front yard and I got to watch. 2.5 million $ house sold at 1.5. Sucks to be them.


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## Wuzzat? (Apr 14, 2014)

^
http://behavenet.com/node/21650
I had a tenant like this once but at the time I didn't realize what I was dealing with.  I'm sadder and wiser by now.

If you get more than your share of these people (I forget what percentage are in the general population) you need to change something.  Depending on how many customers you have over how many years, your number may just have come up.

The trouble is, there is more than a casual connection between CEOs and sociopaths, and CEOs can do some real damage to many, many people.

The outlook is not good for this personality disorder, nor for paranoids.  The thing is, if you're in the business/commerce world it helps to be a sociopath and if you're in combat/warfare it helps to be paranoid.

And I think commerce is sublimated warfare but that view may not be widely held!  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_(psychology)
Speaking of sublimation, people who want to hurt people sometimes become surgeons or prize fighters.

Unless you live on a desert island I recommend looking through the DSM-IV or V in the reference section of your local library.  I have the DSM-IV but I don't feel like shelling out $160 for the fifth edition.


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## carnuck (Apr 14, 2014)

oldognewtrick said:


> Sad to say, but after this past year, I agree. We had to sue 2 customers who didn't pay for their roof installations. We won both suits. Cost about 25k so far in legal fees and haven't got a penny yet. The whole process seems to be about protecting the deadbeats and not the honest citizen. My whole faith in the judicial system has been greatly challenged. At least one of the theifs had their house sold on the court house steps, their furniture moved to the front yard and I got to watch. 2.5 million $ house sold at 1.5. Sucks to be them.



Did you get your money from the lien filed?


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## Wuzzat? (Apr 14, 2014)

There may have been liens that took priority
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=perfected+lien+definition&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


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## slownsteady (Apr 14, 2014)

New book called "The Divide" by Matt Taibbi seems to fit right into this thread:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/13/books/review/the-divide-by-matt-taibbi.html?_r=0


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## oldognewtrick (Apr 15, 2014)

carnuck said:


> Did you get your money from the lien filed?




No, not yet. A lein doesn't  guarantee you receive payment.


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## inspectorD (Apr 15, 2014)

oldognewtrick said:


> No, not yet. A lein doesn't  guarantee you receive payment.



But Big Al does... big Al makes sure you get paid...and his cut is always smaller than the lawyers.


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## Wuzzat? (Apr 15, 2014)

slownsteady said:


> New book called "The Divide" by Matt Taibbi seems to fit right into this thread:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/13/books/review/the-divide-by-matt-taibbi.html?_r=0


Here's another
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1556526377/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
but it may not have worked for the guy in your excerpt.
This ex-cop said one time they went after everyone who was out between 1AM and 4AM and almost 100% of them had a rap sheet.
He also talked about a "nine ball machine", a shotgun that fires 9 hardened steel balls, and bragged (it seemed to me) that three shots at any car guarantees all the passengers will be immediately dead.


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## Jungle (Jun 2, 2014)

Well i went to the land office. So an interesting update. The deed was amended in 2000 the front is 57 ft instead of 50 ft! There must have been some fight about it because they both owners agreed at the time. So i just gain 700 ft.

So what the doc says is that the land goes from the NW point so the first neighbor. So even though i thought i  lost 3 ft it doesn't matter, it is really this old man beside me that is gonna a lose. Obviously he is not happy about this, that is why he keeps "saying i don't like fences.' He talked to the surveyor last year too. The surveyor didn't mark that point, but the old guy already knew about it.

Strange thing is that he has a garage at back starting at about 52 ft. So i guess i just make a square fence around him giving 1ft allowance for the garage. The front is wide open. I guess that's where the new drive way is going.


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## Wuzzat? (Jun 2, 2014)

Jungle said:


> I guess that's where the new drive way is going.


Get it in writing before anyone commits any bucks.
To paraphrase some dialog from a foreign film I saw on the subject of law: the law doesn't care about the truth, it cares about what can be proved.

And a lawyer at the gym sort of agreed with me & the film.  He said that what a jury decides is taken to be the truth.


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## slownsteady (Jun 3, 2014)

> To paraphrase some dialog from a foreign film I saw on the subject of law: the law doesn't care about the truth, it cares about what can be proved.



Oui! It is from a foreign film called: "A Few Good Men"


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## Wuzzat? (Jun 4, 2014)

Nah, this was a film with subtitles, maybe from Holland, the attorney who said that had a speech impediment, the hero of the film was suspected of killing his father, his mother never married, the hero read almost through an entire encyclopedia.


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## mudmixer (Jun 4, 2014)

Wazzat? -

You have to understand the basis for laws and methods of determining the property actually loaned. It is not uncommon for property line since that basis is the grounds for individual and country boundaries over time.

Every country has different property laws just as they have different languages and interpretations.

It is not uncommon for old surveys to be reviewed and new boundaries determined to properly establish the rights and obligations.

Keep in mind that many original land surveys (section corners to start from) were done by counting the revolutions of a rag tied to a horse drawn wagon and then adjusted using a compass before the cyclic magnetic declination was even thought of.

Property come with both rights and obligations that must be treated and balanced legally. Then, they must be adjusted for the advances of technology to blend the old, new and long established use of the property in good faith. Often, adjacent owners have a old survey blended into  an existing situation using surveyors and engineers.

My mother fell into that situation when a new buyer of a lake lot wanted to build a home on someone else property based on an old survey (50 to 100 years old) he had and thought that that was gospel. The adjacent owners knew better, so they had a survey done to determine the property corners and found that about 25 adjacent owners had built and liked in large lots (narrow and deep) and built on what was assumed to be their lot through the years. All the lots were lake shore frontage (big $$$s) and construction was based on at the methods of the time. Everyone found out that they had buildings and driveways that were on a neighbors property.

They just jointly had a new survey done to determine the property lines that fit the situations. - My mother had a road/driveway on one neighbors property, her dock on the other neighbors property and her house too close to one to get a permit for remodeling. This was typical.Everyone hired a surveyor to determine property corners that fit the current use and adjust the common points on the angular curving road to be adjusted for slope difference and magnetic declination over the years and give the county an idea where the road that had to be maintained.

The survey covered about 5,000 feet of shoreline and was unanimously accepted by the county, property owners and the heirs of the current owners.

At least everyone had a new definition that fit what they bought, used and paid taxes on. Fortunately they were within a mile or so of a known steel section corner.

In Jungle's situation, adjacent property owners can jointly accept a later proper determination by a land surveyor to amend a property line location an a correction to the old lines as long as it does not affect others. - It sure makes it easier to put up fences and detrmine the maintenance.

Dick


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## Jungle (Jun 24, 2014)

Well new turn of events. My brains hurts.

So i was arguing with the neighbor about the 57 feet. So he decided to get his own survey. Same company that i hired.

Same company same waste of time, 2 guys 16 hours x $150=$2400 tax. for him.

So even though there was an amendment in the deed in 2000, 'Stan' did something wrong and hired some incompetent person. So there is some discrepancy in the deed which nixes it.  In other words i am back to 50 feet. How crazy is that? If only Stan had built a fence.

Now, what it turns out is when they did the survey last year i was right about the first neighbor. They are losing their shed and driveway. They just didn't want to do the survey because they thought i wasn't going to pay them i take it. Why wouldn't they tell me the good news, i would have paid happily i don't know.  Maybe they are lying again to me to get me to pay them $1000? 

 I found another surveyor for $1200 he will do the all 4 stakes. It will take some time. Maybe i should just pay the $1000 to the first surveyor? I guess they did do the work. They are arrogant but them seem to well respected and know what they are doing.   They are just pushy for money. I can't help thinking they are screwing me on the 7 feet because i didn't pay them. Or am i being paranoid?
The guys said i get my 50 feet today which puts the property line in the middle of their drive way, as i thought originally. This thing ain't over yet.
I don't know if it is worth it to pay another surveyor, you would think they would all have the same answers. But....


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## Wuzzat? (Jun 24, 2014)

Paranoid?  Here's a checklist
http://psychcentral.com/disorders/paranoid-personality-disorder-symptoms/
but it does depend on the environment.  E.g., in combat the paranoid mindset can save your life.

My home improvement license exam book told me that a contract means an adversarial relationship.  And speaking of combat, I've heard that commerce is sublimated warfare, a socially acceptable version of warfare, just like doing surgery or being a prize fighter is a socially acceptable way to hurt people.

Get an affidavit from each surveyor.  
Even politicians will run before they will go under oath.  I know of only one exception.


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## nealtw (Jun 24, 2014)

If the surveys are coming back and don't agree. it is time to go the city and have the resolve the issue. They can do it and you and your other people pay the bill but then it is done, win lose or draw.


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## Wuzzat? (Jun 24, 2014)

Locally, two powerful people in a very rich neighborhood [1/5 in that place made more than $200K/yr] got into a dispute about property.  Each had done questionable things.  

Apparently the law literally required one house to be moved about 4".  

Well, the county wet their pants.  It was pathetic.  I never found out how it was resolved.


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## Jungle (Jun 25, 2014)

The city and cops want nothing to do with these issue. Everyone does the same thing, tries to get the city to do the survey and solve the problem. They are well aware of the problem.

I paid my 'bill' today, $980.  They said i get my 50 feet which mean bye bye neighbors driveway. But there are tricky, i'll bet they are lying, those surveyor. Oh well either way i and had to spend the money to find out one way or another. Bit of my problem being cheap too. If it works out the neighbor will have to move their shed and fence and loss their driveway. It is gonna be crazy, i might be murder by their relatives. This is what they told me now the surveyors. Dam if they are lying they will just say you didn't pay your bill, we can't make people happy. That would be dishonest and wrong of them wouldn't it? I can feel it already i'm gonna get burned.

But i can complain to their government body. If they are lying i can get my money back  i think. Because it means they could be lying about the survey results as well. It is just unethical, isn't it?

This small town feels so corrupt, people are always lying. There is only 2 surveyor in the area and other surveyor don't want to drive 1-2 hour to get here. This is why it is hard to trust  them. But what can i do, it is already too much of head waste.

Can you believe the lawyer who wrote up 57 feet in 2000 made a mistake? misread 0 for 6. This is why they told me today. I wonder if i can find this lawyer now? This Stan and neighbor had a deed amendment paid money etc. It is lost now because of that. Must be something to do...?


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## nealtw (Jun 25, 2014)

In Canada the can be held responsible for mistakes.
http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/earth-sciences/geomatics/canada-lands-surveys/surveyor-general/10876


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## slownsteady (Jun 26, 2014)

Did you buy this property because you love the area and want to raise your family there? If not, do the dirty work, raise the property value enough to make some money on the deal,..... and move.


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## slownsteady (Jun 26, 2014)

........far away!


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## Wuzzat? (Jun 26, 2014)

This guy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ekman
says all of us lie all the time so one distinction is "lying for material gain."

Mixing lies with truth works, that's why car dealers do it.

Be careful if they try to provoke you; in that case they want you to do something irrational and hopefully illegal and hopefully criminal.


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## Jungle (Jun 26, 2014)

Ya lately i think i put too much money and too much work in the house.  Too many things wrong with it.
Paid $110
spend $30
Value $180-200

Probably easier ways to make $40k. I did get free rent that is another $20k, and the money is tax free. Might sell in a year or two. It's an hour away from the city, we got 2 big lakes near by with beaches. Winter and spring are the worst up here. So much snow, it is like a part time job shoveling it away. Definitely will be getting out for 3-4 months this winter, probably after that i will see the place more positively. You American have it so much easier. You can live so many different climates and don't worry so much about building permits. Not to mention your RE is much cheaper. 

You can see why i'm not happy with the neighbors survey. Not only did i not get 7 feet, if i just negotiated with the old guy we could have agree, i would have got another foot just because it should be at the bottom of the slope. Instead he paid $2500 for that extra foot. Look at his house for crist stake, it  is worse than mine was, has bird living in the attic. On top of that he is half senile and can hardly get around, someone comes and brings him food once a month. Whole town is filled with retires on their last nickles. Taxes are $2200 a year, not exactly cheap.


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## Wuzzat? (Jun 26, 2014)

Jungle said:


> On top of that he is half senile and can hardly get around,




When I see geezers I try to figure out which one I will become.  And I guess some of them look at me and say, "That was me, once."


Neglecting costs and fees at each end, houses here appreciate 5%/year.

Let's say you bought for $110K and you make 5% (.05) simple interest per year. 
After two years you'd get (1 + .05)^2= 1.10, so times $110K = $121K.

The inverse: Let's say you bought for $110K and you sell after two years for $200K.  
X^2 = 200/110 = 1.82 so 1.82^(1/2) = X = 1.35, 1.35 - 1 = 0.35 = 35% simple interest per year, a great profit if the market holds up.

Your spreadsheet or the Internet can figure fractional exponents, or simple or compound interest.  Also, look up "the rule of 72".


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## Jungle (Jul 2, 2014)

Yup this house was a bit of experiment. If someone had written down on piece of paper everything that is wrong with it i would have run away. On the other hand i think it was great experience, i would have have never dreamed i would be learning to fix so many things. If i had loan it won't have been so fun.

 It is nice area in summer for sure. People do move up here but slowly. There is small university, lots of lakes, too many skids. As long as you don't talk to any locals you are fine.

This house is slowly getting transformed and restored.  Consider that i got it for almost half price, you won't get that much off a house in the city.  I learned a lot, i just need a long break away in the winter as i used to do then i'll be right as rain again.
The survey is finally complete. They must of thought i was some flipper because they could have just complete it and i would have certainly paid for this. How could i not? 
First photos is called 'bye bye driveway" and second is called "but, but, but...." Now there is proper survey the city will take action and order the shed taken down. I am still diggin, so i will hold off. Who knows maybe they will grow-up? I've got the skid steer coming maybe they will let me take the concrete pad out. It will be expensive if the city does it.


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