# Insulating an exterior bedroom wall that never had insulation



## maxdad118 (Jan 25, 2017)

So I am aware of blown in or expanding foam insulation. I don't want to make a mess and buy the equipment to do this. My question is if I cut a 4x8 section out of the center of a wall would I be able to fish it up to the ceiling and down to the floor behind the sheetrock I leave in place? I plan on splitting the difference from floor to wall so about 2 ft up from the floor and down from the ceiling. The 8' would go side to side. I feel this should be doable and wonder if anyone has done this?


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## bud16415 (Jan 25, 2017)

maxdad118 said:


> wonder if anyone has done this?



Welcome to the forum.
Never did it. Patching in two large areas will be as much work as taking it all down IMO. I would use blown in insulation with a rental machine. Wires and nails and the wood will snag the insulation with how you want to do it I would think and I dont  know how good of a seal you will get in the uncovered areas.


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## inspectorD (Jan 25, 2017)

Well..

To do a decent job, no. It gets caught on siding nails on the outside and any electrical wiring or piping also.

The blown in machines are only good if you have a certain CFM machine. These are what the insulation companies own so they can get it packed into the cavity. Any rental machines do not have this capacity.

So here is the reality, brass tacks

Get a price to have a company install dense packed insulation blown in from the exterior usually. They remove some siding and plug the holes when done, then reinstall any siding.
Or
Remove your sheetrock  or plaster about a  foot from the ceiling and floor, then resheetrock.
See which on costs more, and make a desicion.

also
Removing any trim around your windows and sealing air leaks at the baseboard floor wall connection is also a good idea.


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## joecaption (Jan 25, 2017)

Balloon wall construction?
Is so the top and bottom of the walls also need to be fire blocked.
If the bottoms not sealed up before it's insulated it will just run out the bottom.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2017)

Depending on what you want to do. Older houses that were built with ship lap instead of sheeting on the outside breath well so when they get wet like from leaky windows they dry out.
But they are often open to insects and rodents. Filling a void with insulation will not stop insects and rodents but it will no longer dry out.
Bat insulation is friction fit and does not slide easily and with siding nails poking thru, it would be very close to impossible.
I would suggest taking the dry wall down or most down as has been suggested inspect for water tracks and general condition of framing.
Inspect wiring and do any repairs needed.


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## maxdad118 (Jan 25, 2017)

It's a stucco siding and I would have most of cavity exposed leaving about 2 ft above and below still sheet rocked( that's the plan anyway?). I would think I could get my hand up inside to get the insulation up to the top and bottom?


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## bud16415 (Jan 25, 2017)

One way to find out is to try it. I like inspectors idea leaving a foot top and bottom. I can see tucking it up in there and then no ceiling repair to do or removing baseboards.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2017)

maxdad118 said:


> It's a stucco siding and I would have most of cavity exposed leaving about 2 ft above and below still sheet rocked( that's the plan anyway?). I would think I could get my hand up inside to get the insulation up to the top and bottom?



It will be the nails that drive you nuts, let us know how you make out and what ever tricks you come up with


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## Snoonyb (Jan 25, 2017)

R-13 is available in unfaced batts and your plan will expose any fire blocking so stuffing it up and down will be easy.

Since we on the truly left coast, seldom if ever used siding in the era your house was built.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> R-13 is available in unfaced batts and your plan will expose any fire blocking so stuffing it up and down will be easy.
> 
> Since we on the truly left coast, seldom if ever used siding in the era your house was built.



So more nails and more random placing, yes?


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## Snoonyb (Jan 25, 2017)

nealtw said:


> So more nails and more random placing, yes?



Fewer nails and specific spacing, by code.

Stucco lath is nailed to the studs and if you miss it creates a hole that needs to be patched or you won't pass inspection.

Since we do piece work here, the longer it takes, the less you make.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Fewer nails and specific spacing, by code.
> 
> Stucco lath is nailed to the studs and if you miss it creates a hole that needs to be patched or you won't pass inspection.
> 
> Since we do piece work here, the longer it takes, the less you make.



That's code for plywood and osb, was it there when ship lap was the standard sheeting? I don't think it was here.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 25, 2017)

nealtw said:


> That's code for plywood and osb, was it there when ship lap was the standard sheeting? I don't think it was here.



Shiplap is an interior and exterior finish product up to about 1930, in municipalities and into the 70's and 80's in rural communities.

OSB is a relatively recent exterior shear panel and therefore required to be nailed to the studs as well.

Nails not embedded in studs are called "shiners" and because they can work loose, are required to be removed and replaced.

More time, less profit.

I'd venture a guess that the OP's house was built in 60's to 70's era.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Shiplap is an interior and exterior finish product up to about 1930, in municipalities and into the 70's and 80's in rural communities.
> 
> OSB is a relatively recent exterior shear panel and therefore required to be nailed to the studs as well.
> 
> ...



OK before plywood came along and got popular it was 1 x 6 or 1 x 8 boards, up here that wood was ship lap. They used ship lap for concrete forms for less leakage and then re used that lumber for sheeting on the house so they just used the same product to finish sheeting the house. I haven't sheeted with it since the 70s but I have seen it used just a few years ago.

Every time I have cut an opening in old construction like that, I have cut the stucco and the the plaster or dry wall on the inside and hammered the nails back to loosen the stucco for easier removal.


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## slownsteady (Jan 25, 2017)

Learning a lot of factoids about old house construction, but off topic to the OP's question. We simply don't know if he will get hung up on nails or not.
OP: it's seems pretty clear to me from post #6 that you plan on trying your way first, so good luck and let us know how it works. If you find it difficult, you could always expand the hole. Remember that you will need a hole between each pair of studs. Personally, I would rather repair one big hole than many smaller ones.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2017)

I think his plan is to take 4 feet out of the center of the wall. And replace that with one full sheet.


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## maxdad118 (Jan 25, 2017)

nealtw said:


> I think his plan is to take 4 feet out of the center of the wall. And replace that with one full sheet.



That's exactly my plan...I will find the center of the stud so the new sheet, whatever that size will be,  will have the screws hitting the studs. Yeah, my house was built in 1950, lots of DYI here&#128518;


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2017)

maxdad118 said:


> That's exactly my plan...I will find the center of the stud so the new sheet, whatever that size will be,  will have the screws hitting the studs. Yeah, my house was built in 1950, lots of DYI here&#128518;



Find a better place to buy drywall and get a sheet long enough for the whole wall.:thbup:


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## maxdad118 (Jan 27, 2017)

So this is not to scale but the idea I had...


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## nealtw (Jan 27, 2017)

Go closer to the corners even if there is no stud where you cut it, a strip of 1/4 plywood or what have you behind the new joint works fine.


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## maxdad118 (Jan 27, 2017)

Yeah, I plan on going to the corner and hopefully hitting a corner stud? I will measure out 8' and if it doesn't fall on a stud I'll measure back until there is one and that will be my sheet.


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## nealtw (Jan 27, 2017)

maxdad118 said:


> Yeah, I plan on going to the corner and hopefully hitting a corner stud? I will measure out 8' and if it doesn't fall on a stud I'll measure back until there is one and that will be my sheet.



Yeah, I would by full length sheet but yes that works.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 27, 2017)

Go to the corners, the big boxes sell 12' board and there is a method called flat taping to clean up the corners so primer and paint will finish.


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## maxdad118 (Jan 29, 2017)

So my father in law kind of talked me into the expanding foam idea saying it would cost appx $400 for the materials to do my original idea. The room is appx 12x10x14 of walls needed and standard height(7'10"?). Any ideas of how they price this and total time to do it? Am I looking at double the price or more? I'd prefer them to do this from the inside as to not have patch the stucco side but a rather a few Sheetrock plugs.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 29, 2017)

maxdad118 said:


> So my father in law kind of talked me into the expanding foam idea saying it would cost appx $400 for the materials to do my original idea. The room is appx 12x10x14 of walls needed and standard height(7'10"?). Any ideas of how they price this and total time to do it? Am I looking at double the price or more? I'd prefer them to do this from the inside as to not have patch the stucco side but a rather a few Sheetrock plugs.



Try at least 3 times your original plan, even valuing your labor.

Unless, of course, you are doing a 12' wall, a 10' wall and a 14' wall, then the quoted price is accurate.


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## maxdad118 (Jan 29, 2017)

That's insane, this is for somebody else doing it or me renting the equipment? My sister had the cellulose blown in at her whole house for under $1000 13 years ago!? Has pricing changed that much? This is 3 exterior walls totaling about 40 linear feet and standard 8 ft ceiling.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 29, 2017)

maxdad118 said:


> That's insane, this is for somebody else doing it or me renting the equipment? My sister had the cellulose blown in at her whole house for under $1000 13 years ago!? Has pricing changed that much? This is 3 exterior walls totaling about 40 linear feet and standard 8 ft ceiling.



That's you doing the work, and if you can rent the foam application equip.

Renting the cellulose blower isn't a factor, the big boxes have them.

There is a substantial difference between an attic and exterior walls, just in the initial labor.

You can price it out on their web sites.


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## maxdad118 (Jan 30, 2017)

So far so good...


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## bud16415 (Jan 30, 2017)

If you think you need outlets now&#8217;s the time to do them. Maybe even a window. I have framed a window and then covered it with drywall and when the weather got good put it in.


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## maxdad118 (Jan 30, 2017)

That a great idea but have bigger fish to fry right now, I like your thinking though&#55357;&#56397;I have plenty on my plate in regards to home repairs&#55357;&#56873;


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## Snoonyb (Jan 30, 2017)

Interesting diagonal bracing. It's old school.

You could have used unfaced insulation batts, because the drywall is the vapor barrier.


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## nealtw (Jan 30, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Interesting diagonal bracing. It's old school.
> 
> You could have used unfaced insulation batts, because the drywall is the vapor barrier.



That is what you find when they is no sheeting on the outside.

Drywall and paint are very low on the scale for vapour barriers.
Although I would have left off the paper and gone with sheet poly to stop all air leaks. I don't think we can buy paper faced anymore.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 30, 2017)

Remember, the OP is in CA and we don't use poly here.

Kraft faced is available by the truck loads.

Drywall is considered the vapor barrier.


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## nealtw (Jan 30, 2017)

I thin if you check the code, he is really close to what is asked for in Cal.
And to the drywall, dry wall is an air barrier not a vapour barrier

Vapour diffusion is the process of moisture passing through breathable building materials, like drywall and insulation. Vapour barriers are there to prevent that from happening.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 30, 2017)

And that's the paper back on the board.

Remember, this CA not BC.


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## nealtw (Jan 30, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> And that's the paper back on the board.
> 
> Remember, this CA not BC.



Well when Cal. code says insulate with paper side to the living space side, I doubt they think any one would be putting up drywall first.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 30, 2017)

Sure it does, in new construction, which this is not.


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## nealtw (Jan 30, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Sure it does, in new construction, which this is not.



So you just build to the code of when the house was built.:rofl:


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## Snoonyb (Jan 30, 2017)

So, I have a question.

Before the insulation was installed, what was the vapor barrier?


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## nealtw (Jan 30, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> So, I have a question.
> 
> Before the insulation was installed, what was the vapor barrier?



None, air barrier was drywall.
If you say no vapour barrier is required, likely right if you don't have to contend with cold that condenses the moisture in the air.
But you do need air barrier on both sides so warm moist air has no reason to get in the wall. But the code does say (if) paper backed is required.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 31, 2017)

I didn't say that no vapor barrier was required.

In a 2x4 stucco and drywall const., the paper back of the drywall is the vapor barrier and is conceptually the same filament composition as the kraft facing of kraft faced insulation.

The stucco is composed of plaster sand mixed with red label cement and a little lime, which makes it water resistant, and is troweled into 1"/20 galv. stucco netting over 8ga. asphalt impregnated building paper and banjo wire nailed to the studs.

The building paper acts as a waterproofing and funnels any moisture that may find it's way through the stucco via cracks, to the ground or weepscreed. 

The temperature of the dead air in the stud bay is affected by both interior and exterior influences and because there is no openings, there is no air exchange, therefore no dynamic moisture content swings.


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## maxdad118 (Jan 31, 2017)

I'm hoping I will see a noticeable change when all is said and done. These walls are very warm in the summer and cold in the winter.


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## nealtw (Jan 31, 2017)

maxdad118 said:


> I'm hoping I will see a noticeable change when all is said and done. These walls are very warm in the summer and cold in the winter.



It will.:thbup:


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## Snoonyb (Jan 31, 2017)

You will notice a mild change, however the greatest effect, in your climate zone, comes from attic venting and insulation, and dual glazed windows.

While you may have what you think is sufficient attic insulation, R-19, adding R-30 unfaced batts will have a dramatic affect on your cooling expense.


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## maxdad118 (Feb 1, 2017)

Well I'm about 75% done and already feel a change, draft feeling is gone. I did, however, find some large voids below the old baseboard. It appeared back in the day the used 1x6 or something as a subfloor and there was good size gaps by the top plate! I shot some Good Stuff expanding foam in there as well as around the top plate where it met the floor. Also, my old galvanized line that was in the wall and exits for the front spikot had a huge void around it, more foam.


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## nealtw (Feb 1, 2017)

In case you ever want to upgrade the plumbing, it would be a good idea to change what you can when it exposed.
Or run new that can be accessed later and you just abandon the old.


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## maxdad118 (Feb 1, 2017)

Here's a couple pics


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## Snoonyb (Feb 1, 2017)

You are on a post and beam raised foundation and during that era they used 1x6 diagonal floor sheeting and what you are referring to as a top plate, is actually the bottom plate of the wall, also known as the sil plate.


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## maxdad118 (Feb 1, 2017)

nealtw said:


> In case you ever want to upgrade the plumbing, it would be a good idea to change what you can when it exposed.
> Or run new that can be accessed later and you just abandon the old.



Funny you mention that because I planned on doing that first! My son has been complaining about how cold it's been and I don't blame him.  We used to have that room for master bedroom before we added on so my wife and I know how cold it can get in the winter and how hot it was in the summer it was on the list of things to do now I got to tackle the galvanize waterlines there are some copper under the house but a majority of it going to the water heater is galvanized. Yeah, i'm not sure what they were thinking when they ran the galvanized in the wall and then exit it back out for the water Spicket I guess it was for looks? I will abandon it in the wall when I do the copper.&#128512;


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## nealtw (Feb 1, 2017)

If you have a wood floor, never mind what I said about the pipe, you would just bring the new out below the floor.
That would be the original the copper is an upgrade.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 1, 2017)

Your potable water was originally all galv. and that which is no copper was a repair.


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## maxdad118 (Feb 2, 2017)

I have another post regarding the copper water line switch out...Would it more difficult to build back to the riser/service in front of the house? I'm mainly concerned of the tie in to the plastic below ground, it appears to be a glued 90 with a female thread where it attaches to the galvenized. I'm wondering if I can do it in phases. I want to see what's in that old pipe&#55357;&#56832; Want to get rid of the old gate valve and put a ball valve in.


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## nealtw (Feb 2, 2017)

Your connection has to be behind the meter, so if the meter is at the house. The connection would be better asked of Frodo in plumbing with a photo.


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## nealtw (Feb 2, 2017)

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e75dQVhVX8[/ame]


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## maxdad118 (Feb 2, 2017)

nealtw said:


> Your connection has to be behind the meter, so if the meter is at the house. The connection would be better asked of Frodo in plumbing with a photo.



Yeah, the meter is appx 15 ft from the house, it appears to be Pvc from meter to riser then transitions to galvenized about a foot underground. Comes up galvenized and has about 40 ft of galvanized horizontally in crawlspace, elbows and another 15 ft or so towards slab laundry room where it's copper. Galv takeoff towards first bathroom but transitions to copper near bathroom.


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## nealtw (Feb 2, 2017)

maxdad118 said:


> Yeah, the meter is appx 15 ft from the house, it appears to be Pvc from meter to riser then transitions to galvenized about a foot underground. Comes up galvenized and has about 40 ft of galvanized horizontally in crawlspace, elbows and another 15 ft or so towards slab laundry room where it's copper. Galv takeoff towards first bathroom but transitions to copper near bathroom.



Hopefully you don't have tree roots like the video. people should think before planting.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 2, 2017)

maxdad118 said:


> I'm mainly concerned of the tie in to the plastic below ground, it appears to be a glued 90 with a female thread where it attaches to the galvenized.



The plastic fitting should be male and thred into the galv., because over tightening male metal into plastic female, will cause the plastic to split and fail. 



maxdad118 said:


> I'm wondering if I can do it in phases. I want to see what's in that old pipe&#65533;&#65533; Want to get rid of the old gate valve and put a ball valve in.



There are some precaution to follow if you anticipate any lengthy time lapses between phases and that's the use of a dielectric fitting when connecting copper to galv., the most common of which is a 6" brass nipple.

In connecting your service riser to the ball valve, change the threaded coupling to a glued coupling and extend the riser to the ball valve.


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## maxdad118 (Feb 2, 2017)

Here's a couple pics...


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## maxdad118 (Feb 2, 2017)

Obviously I want to take care of this soon! I inherited this house this way.


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## bud16415 (Feb 2, 2017)

I have told this story before but we bought and old house and I spent several days on plumbing and gave up. I cut the line where it comes in the house and did the whole house with PEX in a day and a half. That was the first time I ever worked with it and didn&#8217;t have one leak.


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## maxdad118 (Feb 2, 2017)

Yeah I hear good stuff about PEX and how easy and quick it is to use but I'm going copper I just want it to be permanent we had some rodent issues before I don't want to take any chances with them chewing through it


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## maxdad118 (Feb 2, 2017)

I didn't mean to say permanent I know it's a permanent upgrade


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## bud16415 (Feb 2, 2017)

Knocking on wood here. So far so good with the rodents here, I make them live outside. Plus I don&#8217;t want them to eat my wires also.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 2, 2017)

It helps if you resist naming and feeding them.


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## maxdad118 (Feb 2, 2017)

Officially all finished with removing old rock, cleaning out bays, foaming voids, insulating, new Sheetrock screwed in, taped and joint compound done. Have to go over it a second time and feather it out due to some low spots. I am by no means an expert but I'll take a warm room for $200 in materials and labor any day. Not sure how much I saved but I'm guessing over a grand easy!


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## nealtw (Feb 2, 2017)

Well done and it looks great too.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 2, 2017)

And you've expanded your knowledge and your DIY comfort zone.


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## bud16415 (Feb 3, 2017)

:thbup::thbup:


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