# Removing load bearing wall?



## Encalado83 (May 11, 2017)

Hi i am removing a wall that i think is a load bearing wall. I dont plan on having a big opening. There will be 2 end posts a 2 posts in middle. All post close to 5 feet apart, total span close to 16 feet. Will i need a load beam installed in above another beam i am putting in? The post are cedar 6x6 and the beam will be same. Debating to cut cieling joists and attach to a lvl that sits above the 6x6 beam. It is a hip roof construction that is a one story. I attached a photo of thw wall and above the wall where the ceiling joists meet.


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## nealtw (May 11, 2017)

Welcome to the site. 
Can you confirm that the roof structure is hand framed and not engineered trusses, or just a better picture of the structure.
The posts you put in will be point loads so they need support all the way to the foundation. So if you have a crawlspace, there will be some work to do down there. Not much.

If you are just the supporting the weight of the ceiling the extra weight on the section of foundation should not be a major concern.

If I was doing this much work I would go the extra and put the full length LVLs flush so I had a clean open ceiling. 

I would not use ceder for the beams even for the short ones, 2 2xx10s would be better.


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## Encalado83 (May 11, 2017)

Thank you. It is not a a truss system. It is hand built. Itis a crawl space and right under the wall is the supporting floor joists. The is nothing above the wall except a small attic about 4 feet tall.


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## nealtw (May 11, 2017)

Encalado83 said:


> Thank you. It is not a a truss system. It is hand built. Itis a crawl space and right under the wall is the supporting floor joists. The is nothing above the wall except a small attic about 4 feet tall.



Ooo, nothing but floor joists?
How long are they and is this wall in the center or closer to one end?

We are getting close to where you might need an engineers advice.


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## Encalado83 (May 11, 2017)

I am sorry not floor joists i meant floor girder that runs right under the wall the whole length of wall with cinder block supports and proper footings.


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## nealtw (May 11, 2017)

Encalado83 said:


> I am sorry not floor joists i meant floor girder that runs right under the wall the whole length of wall with cinder block supports and proper footings.



So is the girder the same 16 ft as the wall above?


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## Encalado83 (May 11, 2017)

The girder is the length of the house so it also runs under another wall that seperates bedrooms. Total length of this girder is about 32 feet long.


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## nealtw (May 11, 2017)

Encalado83 said:


> The girder is the length of the house so it also runs under another wall that seperates bedrooms. Total length of this girder is about 32 feet long.



Depending on the style of girder, I doubt it was designed to take a point load in the center.

You can see with the one here the top 2x4 on flat would not do the job.

Google floor girder and find one that looks like yours and post the picture.


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## Encalado83 (May 11, 2017)

I took a pic. And its 3 boards wide.


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## nealtw (May 11, 2017)

Encalado83 said:


> I took a pic. And its 3 boards wide.



 Starting over, you have a 3 ply beam 2x8s or 2x10s with piers every X feet.

And the new posts will land at X inches from one pier and X inches from another pier and so on.


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## Encalado83 (May 11, 2017)

It is 3ply 2x10. 6x6 posts will be about 6 feet apart. The cinder block piers are about 9 feet apart.


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## nealtw (May 11, 2017)

The simple explanation of the worry about point loads is

If you want to break a stick you might put you foot in the middle and pull up one end and if it doesn't break it will bend at the point where you have your foot.
You are not talking about a lot of weight as each sheet of drywall is either 50  or 70 pounds and you can figure what that might total for the ceiling and you will be holding half of the total.

Just cut some blocks to match the height of the floor joists and put them between the beam and the sub floor plywood so the weight is transferred directly to the beam.
While you are there check the nailing on the beam, there should be 3 nails every 16 inches on both sides.
The over kill would be to add another 2x10 to one side of the beam in the sections in question..

That said back upstairs, I understand you want three posts, for the same money I would do the structure for two even if you add the third.
Set 2 2x12s near the wall, build the two temp walls to hold the ceiling up remove the wall.
Use a chalk line and place to lines on the ceiling joists 3 1/4 inches apart and cut the that out .
Slide hangers onto the ends of every ceiling joist then nail the 2x12s together with 4 nails every 16" and slide that up into place, set your end posts and go upstairs and nail the hangers then remove the temp walls.

It's all easy from where I am sitting

Keep in mind that the ceiling joist also hold the outside walls from spreading, so if your 3 1/4" grows a little we would get a little excited about that.


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## Encalado83 (May 11, 2017)

Thank you very much for all your help


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## bud16415 (May 11, 2017)

It would be ideal if your design just had 3 posts instead of 4, but understand you need it done that way. What you are getting into is point loading the beam below rather than uniform loading with one stud for each joist above. 

The answer you will get is most likely will be you need a professional eng to run the numbers and give you a recommendation. The joists come together in the attic and have a plate nailed to them. The weight of the roof is pushing out on the walls and the ceiling joists are being pulled in tension as there is no king post taking half the weight down thru the building. So the weight the center wall is really supporting is the weight of the ceiling and joists. Actually half that weight as the outside walls are taking the other half. I personally feel the triple 10&#8217;s spanned at 9&#8217; will do the job with a point load 1/3 of the span over. 

You could calculate it yourself or find a pro to do it and write a report or go with your gut feel. You could also sister more 10&#8221;s over the center pier out to where the post is if you feel the need.


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## Encalado83 (May 11, 2017)

Will i really have to worry about point loads for the two center posts if i have a lvl load beam put in with king studs on the outside to support the lvl beam. The lvl beam should take weight off the two center posts correct? The outside king studs should fall right over the cinder block piers.


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## nealtw (May 11, 2017)

How many square feet of both rooms, ceiling drywall, 1/2" or 5/8"?
As the piers are 16 x 16  the king and jack studs should be landing above the pier? 
full length beam moves the weight from the center pier to the out side piers.

Let's figure the weight you are moving.


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## bud16415 (May 11, 2017)

Yes if you make the whole thing a free span then your two center posts will just be decorations. That is the harder way to go and will cost the most though, I think.


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## Encalado83 (May 11, 2017)

nealtw said:


> How many square feet of both rooms, ceiling drywall, 1/2" or 5/8"?
> As the piers are 16 x 16  the king and jack studs should be landing above the pier?
> full length beam moves the weight from the center pier to the out side piers.
> 
> Let's figure the weight you are moving.




Kitchen is 13x12
Living room 16.5x12
Drywall 1/2 thick
King studs will land on top of piers


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## nealtw (May 11, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> Yes if you make the whole thing a free span then your two center posts will just be decorations. That is the harder way to go and will cost the most though, I think.



Lumber is sold by the foot, 2  8s = 1  16

Then the question is the footing under the two piers taking the load. buty I think it is minimal.

And you know how often I suggest an engineer. We are just talking about 1/4 of the weight of the whole ceiling, which would be around 55 lbs for ever 32 sf.

2x12s would be over kill, LVLs would be a waist of money.


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## nealtw (May 11, 2017)

OK math from the head, some one can check it.

SQ feet 12 x 30 =550 / 32 = 17 4x8 sheets drywall @ 55 lbs= 940 plus the 2x4 joists. let's say the ceilings weighs 1000 lbs.

So the new full length beam would carry 1000/2 = 500 as half is sitting on outside walls. So now you have 250 lbs on each post.

 each of the posts down stairs is carrying 250 lbs.

So you are asking the two piers to carry 500 lbs

I think that would fall well inside the safety over build or the piers.

I have been wrong before..:thbup:


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## nealtw (May 11, 2017)

Encalado83 said:


> Kitchen is 13x12
> Living room 16.5x12
> Drywall 1/2 thick
> King studs will land on top of piers



We would like the jack studs to land on the pier. I don't think this a problem but if you were worried about that you could just stand a treated post in front of the pier down to the footing below the pier..


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## Encalado83 (May 11, 2017)

I agree i dont see no reason why the cinder block piers couldnt handle the load. I think doing it that will prolly be easier than trying ti have the 2 middle posts try to help support the ceiling.


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## nealtw (May 11, 2017)

Encalado83 said:


> I agree i dont see no reason why the cinder block piers couldnt handle the load. I think doing it that will prolly be easier than trying ti have the 2 middle posts try to help support the ceiling.



I just think that you are going to all that work and the next guy will likely want to remove your two center posts so for a little extra effort, call it done.

earlier I described putting the beam above the ceiling but you could put it below the ceiling with a lot less work.


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## Encalado83 (May 11, 2017)

Well the reason i want the 2 center post is because between the 2 i am putting a bar to sit at to eat


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## nealtw (May 11, 2017)

Makes sense but likely more work to do short beams.


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## nealtw (May 11, 2017)

Don't forget thew blocks between the beam and sub floor below.


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## Encalado83 (May 11, 2017)

Ok thank u very much


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## Snoonyb (May 11, 2017)

Your foundation is a typical post and beam system.

What should be of concern is the loading of the pier between the 6' and 12' post, where by action you are concentrating the load of those two members there. While the diaphragm of the wall spreads the load proportionately over the length of the girder, the placement of those posts has the potential of that pier to settle disproportionately.

A larger structural header in the ceiling allows for the placement of any space defining elements, anywhere along the line, as well as eliminates all the blocking of the floor joists.


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## nealtw (May 11, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> well as eliminates all the blocking of the floor joists.



As there is 14 1/2" between floor joist, there may or may not be one below the installed post so code says solid blocking from the beam to the sub floor and block size should relate to the size of the beam and the post so as the beam is 4 1/2" and the posts discussed will be 6x6 the blocking can be pieces of 2x4 totaling 4 1/2 x 6 x the height of the joist and can include a floor joist if one is there.


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## Snoonyb (May 11, 2017)

However, increasing the header in the ceiling carries the load end too end, thereby eliminating any significant weight, other than the weight of the post itself, and also eliminating the need for any joist blocking.


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## nealtw (May 11, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> However, increasing the header in the ceiling carries the load end too end, thereby eliminating any significant weight, other than the weight of the post itself, and also eliminating the need for any joist blocking.



So in a good build we try to get the studs in the wall to land directly over the joist below so any weight transfer goes to the beam with out stressing the plywood of the sub  floor.

So you think you can remove the wall and all the studs and replace that with a beam and you only have to be concerned about the weight of the post.

Good luck with that.:down:


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## Encalado83 (May 11, 2017)

I will make sure i block off under each post for safety measure. Extra work and being extra safe does not bother me.


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## nealtw (May 11, 2017)

Encalado83 said:


> I will make sure i block off under each post for safety measure. Extra work and being extra safe does not bother me.



Snug fit is good enough and couple nails from above


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## Snoonyb (May 11, 2017)

nealtw said:


> So in a good build we try to get the studs in the wall to land directly over the joist below so any weight transfer goes to the beam with out stressing the plywood of the sub  floor.
> 
> So you think you can remove the wall and all the studs and replace that with a beam and you only have to be concerned about the weight of the post.
> 
> Good luck with that.:down:



I've been doing it that way for 45yrs., and remember I warranty my work for as long as that homeowner lives there, and I don't do "ANY" warranty repairs, because I do it right the first time.

Another reason the larger header makes sense, is that the "posts" can be hollow, placed any where, further reducing the weight, and allowing for elec. and/or other service drop downs.

Budgeting for convenience, as well as architectural.


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## nealtw (May 12, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> I've been doing it that way for 45yrs., and remember I warranty my work for as long as that homeowner lives there, and I don't do "ANY" warranty repairs, because I do it right the first time.
> 
> Another reason the larger header makes sense, is that the "posts" can be hollow, placed any where, further reducing the weight, and allowing for elec. and/or other service drop downs.
> 
> Budgeting for convenience, as well as architectural.



Well the first time I missed the blocking below the engineer and the city inspector had something to say about it. 

I guess that only happens if you get inspections.


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## Snoonyb (May 12, 2017)

There's another reason for building with the full span header.

The OP or the next owner doesn't have to go through the whole process again, were they to decide to remove the bar and posts in favor of an open space layout.

Double, Double Toil, Trouble, Trouble Broil, and Caldron Bubble.


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## nealtw (May 12, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> There's another reason for building with the full span header.
> 
> The OP or the next owner doesn't have to go through the whole process again, were they to decide to remove the bar and posts in favor of an open space layout.
> 
> Double, Double Toil, Trouble, Trouble Broil, and Caldron Bubble.



That's all fine but we were talking about the blocking under the floor.

You should hide you corn flakes.


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## Snoonyb (May 12, 2017)

nealtw said:


> That's all fine but we were talking about the blocking under the floor.
> 
> You should hide you corn flakes.



Your talking about the necessity for blocking between the floor joist because you are advocating a short span header requiring intermediate supports, which is the hard way, doesn't allow the versatility or the foresight of eventuality.

While I'm advocating a far simpler process, eliminating unnecessary labor and costly material, allows design versatility while budgeting for contingencies.


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## nealtw (May 12, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Your talking about the necessity for blocking between the floor joist because you are advocating a short span header requiring intermediate supports, which is the hard way, doesn't allow the versatility or the foresight of eventuality.
> 
> While I'm advocating a far simpler process, eliminating unnecessary labor and costly material, allows design versatility while budgeting for contingencies.



If you actually read all the posts you would understand that I said to install the 16 ft beam with point loads at each end with blocking below those. and what he does in the middle is only for show.:nono:


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## Snoonyb (May 12, 2017)

nealtw said:


> If you actually read all the posts you would understand that I said to install the 16 ft beam with point loads at each end with blocking below those. and what he does in the middle is only for show.:nono:



Actually, you're all over the place;
#2The posts you put in will be point loads so they need support all the way to the foundation. So if you have a crawlspace, there will be some work to do down there. Not much.

If I was doing this much work I would go the extra and put the full length LVLs flush so I had a clean open ceiling.

#8Depending on the style of girder, I doubt it was designed to take a point load in the center.

#10And the new posts will land at X inches from one pier and X inches from another pier and so on.

#12Slide hangers onto the ends of every ceiling joist then nail the 2x12s together with 4 nails every 16" and slide that up into place, 

#192x12s would be over kill, LVLs would be a waist of money.


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## nealtw (May 12, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Actually, you're all over the place;
> #2The posts you put in will be point loads so they need support all the way to the foundation. So if you have a crawlspace, there will be some work to do down there. Not much.
> 
> If I was doing this much work I would go the extra and put the full length LVLs flush so I had a clean open ceiling.
> ...



Yes there was confusion because the OP said the wall was sitting above a 32 ft long floor girder, we got to the right information because I wasted time and posts digging deeper to get the correct information. :thbup:


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## Snoonyb (May 12, 2017)

nealtw said:


> Yes there was confusion because the OP said the wall was sitting above a 32 ft long floor girder, we got to the right information because I wasted time and posts digging deeper to get the correct information. :thbup:



The photo in post #9 tells part of the story, but what is missing is the roof bracing, and advocating 2-2X12's for a 16' span, without an engineers stamp, is simply folly, because the arbitrary rule, with the building dept., is 1" of height for each lineal foot of span.

So, why I would advocate a larger header, be it an LVL or dimensional lumber, over the time and material method, should be obvious.


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## Encalado83 (May 12, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> The photo in post #9 tells part of the story, but what is missing is the roof bracing, and advocating 2-2X12's for a 16' span, without an engineers stamp, is simply folly, because the arbitrary rule, with the building dept., is 1" of height for each lineal foot of span.
> 
> So, why I would advocate a larger header, be it an LVL or dimensional lumber, over the time and material method, should be obvious.




Sorry i actually have a pic of roof. Standard hip roof that is hand built with cross members running width of roof. In red circle is where wall is that i am removing.


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## nealtw (May 12, 2017)

Encalado83 said:


> Sorry i actually have a pic of roof. Standard hip roof that is hand built with cross members running width of roof. In red circle is where wall is that i am removing.



That is what I understood.


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## Snoonyb (May 12, 2017)

Thanks, that's good information.

Usually, in stick built construction there are braces from the ridge and purlin rafter, (which you do not have), terminating at a bearing wall effectively spreading the roof loads to another foundation point.


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## Encalado83 (May 31, 2017)

Ok it has taken me awhile to get everything ripped up and to get measurements for this. So far i have a glued triple 2x12 dimensional lumber. I have ceiling joists that are 16 inches o.c. that expand 12 feet each direction and are 2x6. There are no supporting braces coming down at all from roof . there are only roof collars. I will be attaching the beam to the ceiling joists which will rest atop of them with hurricane ties. Below the ceiling joists i will have an exposed cedar 6x6 beam.i will have a cedar 6x6 post at one end. But the question is to put a post at 10 ft to rest over a footer or safe to put one at 14 ft. Will be good that long seeing that there is no supports going to this wall from roof. I am in ohio so there is a snow load. Is there really any roof load going to it at all? Seems the ceiling joist are just holding ceiling up and acting as tension rafters for outer walls


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## nealtw (May 31, 2017)

Encalado83 said:


> Ok it has taken me awhile to get everything ripped up and to get measurements for this. So far i have a glued triple 2x12 dimensional lumber. I have ceiling joists that are 16 inches o.c. that expand 12 feet each direction and are 2x6. There are no supporting braces coming down at all from roof . there are only roof collars. I will be attaching the beam to the ceiling joists which will rest atop of them with hurricane ties. Below the ceiling joists i will have an exposed cedar 6x6 beam.i will have a cedar 6x6 post at one end. But the question is to put a post at 10 ft to rest over a footer or safe to put one at 14 ft. Will be good that long seeing that there is no supports going to this wall from roof. I am in ohio so there is a snow load. Is there really any roof load going to it at all? Seems the ceiling joist are just holding ceiling up and acting as tension rafters for outer walls



Glued or not 3 nails every 16 inches to laminate the beam.
Hurricane ties are extra not usually called for.

At the 14 ft mark what will the post land on, you could maybe double the joist below that.


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## Snoonyb (May 31, 2017)

When I laminate a beam on site I oppose the crowns and nail in 2 or 3 rows with the angle of penetration opposing each other.

The joists probably splice over the wall to be removed, so instead of cutting the nails attaching the CJ's to the top plate, extract them, which will lessen the chance of splitting the joist when you attach them to the beam.


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## Encalado83 (May 31, 2017)

nealtw said:


> Glued or not 3 nails every 16 inches to laminate the beam.
> Hurricane ties are extra not usually called for.
> 
> At the 14 ft mark what will the post land on, you could maybe double the joist below that.



I bought head lock screws and screwed two every 12 inches. And inbetween those i scewed 2 4 inch screws stagered. Hurricane ties will make it easier to attach cj to load beam.


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## Encalado83 (May 31, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> When I laminate a beam on site I oppose the crowns and nail in 2 or 3 rows with the angle of penetration opposing each other.
> 
> The joists probably splice over the wall to be removed, so instead of cutting the nails attaching the CJ's to the top plate, extract them, which will lessen the chance of splitting the joist when you attach them to the beam.



So i should remove all nails before screwing in hurricane ties?


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## nealtw (May 31, 2017)

Encalado83 said:


> I bought head lock screws and screwed two every 12 inches. And inbetween those i scewed 2 4 inch screws stagered. Hurricane ties will make it easier to attach cj to load beam.



You have the long beam across the house below, I would think landing the post there should be fine, Just solid block between that beam and sub floor.


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## Encalado83 (May 31, 2017)

Thanks for the replies really appreciat it...getting this dome this weekend


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## Snoonyb (Jun 1, 2017)

I would, however I'm in concert with neal, in that they are overkill. I would just use 16D's being sure to pick up both CJ's.


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