# Sagging Floor.....



## sirdude (Oct 5, 2014)

Greetings....

 I apologize if I have posted in  the wrong forum.  I have a small apartment that I rent out and the upstairs tenant finally moved out after 22 years.....actually hated to lose her,  Anyway...I was getting ready to replace the floor in the kitchen using 12 inch stick tiles and found that the floor has a pretty good sag in the middle.  The building is approximately 63 years old.  The kitchen is about 8x10 and the floor joist run the long way (10 foot span).  The flooring system consist of 2 x 10 floor joist on 16 inch centers.  The sub floor has 2 x 6 7/8" run diagonally across the joist with 3 inch planking that is approximately 3/4" thick running perpendicular to the joist.  When I lay a straight edge across the floor perpendicular to the joist at the worst place there is about an inch and quarter gap in  the center.  If I go downstairs to the kitchen, the ceiling there pretty well mirrors the floor upstairs having a "buldge" in the center of approximately and inch and a quarter.  the really odd thing is that the "sag" runs PARALLEL with the joist.  I would think it would across instead of with the joist.   Where the floor meets the wall the floor comes back to level indicating there is little or no settling in the walls.  I have had some water leakage (from the sink and hot water heater in the past and about 10 years ago I had termites (well not me, the building).  Had the building treated and the man that did the repairs said they had not gotten into the joist, but the damage was limited to the pine flooring.

 I drilled three 2" holes in the worst areas and ran an endoscope up and down the floors in between the joist.  I saw some water staining but the wood was sound.  Additionally I came across some termite tunnels but they were old and there was no activity.

 I guess my question is do I have a structural problem?  Can I  safely level the floor that inch and a quarter using floor leveler?  Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

 Chris


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## nealtw (Oct 5, 2014)

Welcome to the site.
Strange to have that much sag in ten ft. You have already done all the checking a pro would do. If you are sure the structure is sound, I would just level it and carry on.


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## bud16415 (Oct 5, 2014)

The big question for me is the floor structurally sound and can Carry all loads. The difference in the two different methods is huge in comparing ripping it all down to the joists and correcting it and just leveling it and covering. Your description is good but without being there it's hard to say. When you walk around and jump on the floor does it seem solid? That's not a scientific test but its about all. You can do and the scoping you have done. If it feels solid and looked ok with the scope I would say level it and cover. The only  other thing I would think is to bring in a pro to inspect and pay him for his opinion.

I can tell you my kitchen above a basement I just did I. A 100 plus year old house and I had as much sag as you and left it and leveled and worked around. 

Sounds like it happened over many years. 

Others will be along with advice. 


Sent from my iPhone using Home Repair


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## sirdude (Oct 5, 2014)

Thanks for the suggestions and help guys!  One clarification.....that amount of sag is over 8 feet, not 10.  Well, it's really the same in each direction...it's just odd that the length of the sag is parallel with the floor joist...but I guess that makes sense if the walls haven't settled?  At this point I am thinking I will add another section of 3/8 underlayment in the center over what I have put down to lessen the amount of leveler I'll have to use, and get my floor laid so I can get the stupid thing back on the market.  Thanks again!!!!


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## CallMeVilla (Oct 5, 2014)

Mystery house?  No wall damage anywhere?  No ceiling cracking?  Odd.

Not sure your 3/8" underlayment is the best approach.  I'd like some input from others but a self-leveling cement would fill the "puddle" upstairs and you would get a much better floor.  My only concern I weight added to an already sagging structure.

NEAL - how could he re-level the floor short of removing the kitchen floor and sistering new joists?


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## nealtw (Oct 5, 2014)

CallMeVilla said:


> Mystery house?  No wall damage anywhere?  No ceiling cracking?  Odd.
> 
> Not sure your 3/8" underlayment is the best approach.  I'd like some input from others but a self-leveling cement would fill the "puddle" upstairs and you would get a much better floor.  My only concern I weight added to an already sagging structure.
> 
> NEAL - how could he re-level the floor short of removing the kitchen floor and sistering new joists?



I don't think it is worth it as you would likely remove the ceiling below and then you would likely have to cut the old joists to get them level. We have no info on drywall or plaster cracks or bridging between the joist so I think this happened in the first year.


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## oldognewtrick (Oct 5, 2014)

Could it be as simple as the joints not being crowned?


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## nealtw (Oct 5, 2014)

oldognewtrick said:


> Could it be as simple as the joints not being crowned?



Lumber back then was really wet and even when crowned if overloaded could sag. Think about a pile of drywall or supplies for plaster all stacked in one room.

We have been doing bonus bunker rooms under garages lately, after the foundation is in you build temp walls and floor and put concrete over that.
A few weeks later you strip out the lumber.
The 2x10 joists are all marked for crown and 30% will be crowned the other way when the joist is used elsewhere.


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## sirdude (Oct 5, 2014)

Gents....

I do not know if the joist are bridged or not.  There are a coupled of cracks in the ceiling down below.  They are about 6 feet apart and run perpendicular to the joist and the sag and are about 3 feet long. They are hairline cracks that have not opened and "look" like they were painted over last time the apartment was rented ...about 3 years,  I would imagine they've been there a while.

When this house was built, the used a product for a while....don't know what it was called, but it came in 32" widths that were 6 feet (I think) long. It was like one side of it was kind of like a cement board and the other side that appeared to be laminated to it was like a quarter inch dry wall. I have found evidence of that material being used in parts of this house and as far as I know, that goes for the ceiling too.

I had to remove the old underlayment as it had been wet at one time and would more or less crumble in your hands.  I put down 3/8 plywood and checked my sag again.  I now get 7/8" sag across 8'.  I suspect that the particle board underlayment had expanded around the edges and more or less compressed in the center exaggerating the first measurement,  In addition to the new underlayment (plywood) I have glued and screwed another piece about 2 feet wide down the center of the "sag" so that it still falls under the level line across the room.  This allows me to use less floor leveler and for an armature like me, that makes it more manageable....and less weight.

Just as an aside...the celling over the second floor kitchen is perfectly level and flat.

Thanks for all the comments, they are greatly appreciated!!

Chris


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## nealtw (Oct 5, 2014)

Sounds like a plan, go for light weight leveling compound. I don't like peel and stick tile but that's up to you.


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## sirdude (Oct 5, 2014)

I don't particularly like them either Neal, but this is a rental property and it gives me an easy fast relatively cheap way to replace the floor and at the price point I'm at with the rent, peel and stick is a perfectly acceptable solution (in my humble opinion).  Thanks so much for the help!!  : )


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## nealtw (Oct 5, 2014)

sirdude said:


> I don't particularly like them either Neal, but this is a rental property and it gives me an easy fast relatively cheap way to replace the floor and at the price point I'm at with the rent, peel and stick is a perfectly acceptable solution (in my humble opinion).  Thanks so much for the help!!  : )



Understude   .........


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