# My flooring dilemma, what would you do?



## JoeLink (Aug 11, 2014)

Rather than focusing on everything I have to do between now and the point where I'm actually ready for flooring, I've been distracted by which flooring I'm going to choose. I'd like to get it finalized, once and for all, so I can move on with the other aspects of this condo renovation! 

The condo, my first home, is 2bd/1ba, 714 square feet, on the second floor of a two story complex. The living room, hall, and bedrooms were carpeted, which I've removed and disposed of to get a jump on minimizing the cigarette odor. The kitchen has hardwoods, which will be replaced. The current sub-floor is particleboard. I don't plan on every selling the place, though it'll likely be a rental in 5-6 years. 

I want to have the same wood or wood-look flooring throughout, minus the bathroom. The look I'm going for is a smooth Brazilian Cherry (or Brazilian Cherry look) I must have looked at, decided on, then circled back on each type of flooring there is! I believe I've finally narrowed it down to two options, laminate or real hardwood. I don't like the look or feel of LVT. Engineered hardwood and bamboo seem to cost very close to the real thing, can't be refinished the same (a couple times or not at all), and don't have the upscale prestige of the solid wood. If I'm going to make the investment, I want to do it right, otherwise there's no reason for spending the extra money.  

My main hang-up, of course, is the kitchen and potential damage. I've lived in three homes with hardwoods in the kitchen, and three relatives have had laminate in their kitchens for a few years now. None of them have had an issue, nor have I seen any issues in houses or rentals I've visited. I believe the majority were real hardwoods, it seems kitchen installs are fairly common in the Northwest. Again, just my experiences, this is why I'm asking you guys 

My dilemma, in a sentence: 

*I'd like to go with real, solid hardwood floors, but I'm not sure if it would be worth the cost, since I've heard they're just as susceptible to water damage as laminate.* 

The pro's of hardwoods are numerous: I really like the warmth, look, and feel of a solid hardwood floor. Hardwood floors can be refinished many times (you don't see other 100 year old residential floors still in use today). Hardwood floors increase value and add upscale finish. The only negative is the cost, and that's what has me thinking about laminate. If it's true that they're just as susceptible to water damage, I think laminate is the way to go. Most people buy a few extra boxes, in the event they need to replaced damaged pieces. If I did go with laminate I could install it myself, and float it over the existing particle board. If I go with hardwood I'll have to lay a new subfloor (materials, I can do this myself), and hire a company for the actual flooring install. An upside is that it would likely have a warranty, right? Likely not against water damage, but other things? 

I know you can't seal laminate, and I've read all kinds of mixed things about hardwoods. Some say you can seal them and it'll make them more resistant to water and UV fading. Some say you can't seal them, because they wouldn't be able to expand and contract. Which is it? 

I believe I could install a decent laminate myself for around $3.50/sq ft, on the high end. This would total $2450.

I haven't shopped around for hardwoods, but earlier I called a reputable flooring company for a very rough, sight unseen, sq foot quote, to see if I could possibly afford it. I don't have a bunch of money, but I plan on living here for a long time, and I believe hardwood floors would be an investment. They quoted me $2.25 for the nail down installation (providing I lay and prep the plywood or OSB subfloor), and around $5.99 sq ft for the Brazilian Cherry flooring. This would total $5768, not including the materials for the new subfloor. 

One last question about subfloors, do they all require two 'layers'? I'm guessing the answer will be yes, but if I have 3/4"-1" plywood under the particleboard (attached to the joists), do I still need to lay another sheet of subfloor, or can the hardwood be laid directly on that? 

I'd really appreciate any and all input you guys could provide me. 

Examples of the look I'd like:

















Photos of my condo: 

http://imgur.com/a/uLfhO


----------



## Rusty (Aug 11, 2014)

Most condos won't allow all wood because of the noise. That would be the first thing to find out.


----------



## JoeLink (Aug 11, 2014)

Sorry, should have mentioned that.

I currently have solid hardwoods in the kitchen. 

This is from the R&R: 



> iii. All Wood or Hard flooring material must be installed with sound dampening material to reduce sound transfer to the unit below.


----------



## nealtw (Aug 11, 2014)

samfloor said:


> Most condos won't allow all wood because of the noise. That would be the first thing to find out.



Sam: check out the info and photos on this post concerning this condo.
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/f45/bathroom-remodeling-questions-17966/


----------



## Jungle (Aug 11, 2014)

Usually gets down to kids and the dog are going to ruin it. Not bad if you like the rustic look.


----------



## nealtw (Aug 11, 2014)

24" in on center joists.?? That's not good.


----------



## JoeLink (Aug 11, 2014)

Jungle said:


> Usually gets down to kids and the dog are going to ruin it. Not bad if you like the rustic look.



I don't have kids nor pets, and if the kid situation changed in a year or two I'd rent it and find somewhere else. As for renting it to people with children, I'm trying to build it out in a way that will lend itself more to professional types, such as myself, who need a two bedroom to use one as a home office. 



nealtw said:


> 24" in on center joists.?? That's not good.



Yeah, that worries me. Anything I can do about it? Any good way to check the joist spacing in the living room, kitchen, and bedrooms without pulling the subfloor? I'm crossing my fingers it's just an abnormality in the bathroom.

I guess worst case, I could go with 7/8" OSB? http://www.techsupport.weyerhaeuser...Hardwood-Floor-Installation-Over-24-o-c-Joist


----------



## nealtw (Aug 11, 2014)

Check the distance between the rows of nails in the other rooms, they should be about 16". Let's see what Sam has to say about it.


----------



## slownsteady (Aug 11, 2014)

If it's all about the numbers, then think about this: the nat. wood is about twice the cost, but if it will last twice as long... (I don't know the answer, and a lot depends on how it is used). 
Dogs and kids are an equal risk on either floor. They don't alter their practices based on the flooring. Nat wood can be sanded if the dog scratches it, but laminate...hmm.
A poly finish is pretty typical on a nat. wood floor - shouldn't be any expansion or shrinking issues.
Is it an open floor plan that would require the same floor throughout? There are ways around that if you want the kitchen to be different / spill resistant.


----------



## JoeLink (Aug 11, 2014)

nealtw said:


> Check the distance between the rows of nails in the other rooms, they should be about 16". Let's see what Sam has to say about it.



The distance between the rows of nails in the particleboard is 16", but those rows are running the opposite direction of the joists I uncovered in the bathroom, so I'm pretty sure it's just nailed into the plywood subfloor. 



slownsteady said:


> If it's all about the numbers, then think about this: the nat. wood is about twice the cost, but if it will last twice as long... (I don't know the answer, and a lot depends on how it is used).
> Dogs and kids are an equal risk on either floor. They don't alter their practices based on the flooring. Nat wood can be sanded if the dog scratches it, but laminate...hmm.
> A poly finish is pretty typical on a nat. wood floor - shouldn't be any expansion or shrinking issues.
> Is it an open floor plan that would require the same floor throughout? There are ways around that if you want the kitchen to be different / spill resistant.



That's how I'm looking at it. If I'm not planning on selling the place, I think it'd be a good investment for the long term. Yes, it's twice as much, but I'll enjoy it and hopefully it'll last. That's good to hear about the poly seal, will that help protect it against moisture? 

As for the kids and pets, it should be a non-issue. I can't imagine anyone with a child renting a place without a bathtub. My thought is that if I build this with nicer features and amenities, I should be able to charge more than someone with a child or children would be willing to pay for the size. 

I'm very lucky I managed to buy this place when I did; since April the market here has absolutely exploded. To ensure the unit would always be in demand as a rental, I wanted something with a high WalkScore, of which this has an 83. You wouldn't need to own a car, everything is within a few blocks, yet it's on a quiet sidestreet. I shouldn't have any problem finding someone to rent it when I'm ready to move out :banana:

Quoted from above: 



> I don't have kids nor pets, and if the kid situation changed in a year or two I'd rent it and find somewhere else. As for renting it to people with children, I'm trying to build it out in a way that will lend itself more to professional types, such as myself, who need a two bedroom to use one as a home office.


----------



## slownsteady (Aug 11, 2014)

WalkScore?? is that trademarked?


----------



## nealtw (Aug 11, 2014)

Check the rest of the bathroom floor to see how far apart the joists are..


----------



## JoeLink (Aug 11, 2014)

I'm sure it is 

http://www.walkscore.com

After living in a couple places where almost anything I wanted (groceries, restaraunts, bars, hardware store, etc) was a 10 minute walk, the only alternative for me now is 10+ acres with a large shop


----------



## JoeLink (Aug 11, 2014)

nealtw said:


> Check the rest of the bathroom floor to see how far apart the joists are..



I'll pull up the next easiest piece tomorrow


----------



## nealtw (Aug 11, 2014)

Just measure distence between nails there.


----------



## JoeLink (Aug 11, 2014)

nealtw said:


> Just measure distence between nails there.



Good idea!


----------



## JoeLink (Aug 12, 2014)

Today I verified, I have 1/2" particle board on 3/4" plywood on joists sitting 24" apart. Sorry about the long-winded post!

I've been thinking about it over and over again, and I'm now thinking engineered hardwood might be my best bet, then solid hardwood, then laminate. Honestly though, I think I'm going to opt for one of the two real woods.  

As I mentioned, water damage is my biggest concern, since this will be installed in the kitchen. From what I've read, it seems that engineered hardwood is much more water resistant than solid hardwood. Is this correct? If so, I guess that's my best option...

For the flooring prep and installation, I'm a believer in the old adage "Your final result is only as good as your prep work". I want to make sure my subfloor is ready to quietly support a long relationship with my finish flooring. I'll be doing all the subfloor work myself. I'm not sure if I'll install the hardwood floor or if I'll have it installed, but I'm leaning toward the latter for warranty purposes. As I mentioned above, I have 1/2" particle board, on 3/4" plywood, on joists sitting 24" apart. I've read that, with the wide joist spacing, for solid hardwood floors, it's recommended I lay another sheet of plywood or OSB to bring the total subfloor thickness to 1"+, correct? 

When it comes to the installation, what are the big differences in nail down, glue down, and floating, when it comes to potential issues longevity, and performance of the flooring? Only the engineered hardwood can/should be floated, right? How can I quantify whether it'd be worth the substantial expense of pulling the particle board and laying down another sheet of subflooring for a nail down installation? I don't hear of glue down installations much, is that something I should be considering for my installation, or should I choose between nail down and floating? 

It appears the cost for engineered or solid is about the same. If floating an engineered floor is anything like installing laminate, I'm pretty sure I could do it myself. Cost for a nail down installation is around $2.25/sq ft, or $1575, plus the cost of laying 700 sq ft of additional subfloor. 

Another question! My bottom cabinets are sitting on the current hardwood in the kitchen, so I assume I have to remove them for the install? Any chance of not cracking my tile countertops?


----------



## nealtw (Aug 12, 2014)

A couple thoughts.
I sent you to the bathroom to check floor joist and is that where you got this info?
There are times that floor joists change direction, to land on bearing walls or to allow for plumbing.
It is seldom that you will find that the joists are 24" o c. 
I would talk to other people in the complex to see if they have found the same things as you are finding.
Find a chunk of particle board that you could pull up to prove floor joist configuration.


----------



## JoeLink (Aug 13, 2014)

I made a very rough illustration of the building any my condo layout. The unit is two stories, with mine on top. This is absolutely not to scale 

The rooms numbered 4 and 5 are the kitchen and living room, respectively. 1 is the bedroom, 2 is the office, and 3 is the bathroom. I'm not knowledgeable about construction whatsoever, but I can't imagine them running joists the length of the building. The first board I pulled up was between the office and the bathroom (numbers 2 and 3), with the joists running from the front to the back of the condo. 

Today I pulled a thin (1 ft wide) piece of particle board off the subfloor in the office (number 2). There was a white dust between the layers, and I didn't see any nails holding the plywood to the joists. I measured 24" from where the two pieces of the plywood subfloor met, got down close, and found a nail holding the subfloor down. The I measured 24" from that nail, and again I found a nail holding the subfloor down. I'm 98% sure the joists run from the front of the building to the back of the building, but I can't be 100% without pulling more plywood and having a look.


----------



## nealtw (Aug 13, 2014)

That is the proof I was looking for, not the greatest news but Job well done.
If the older hardwood floor has stood up in the kitchen I think you should be able to hard wood thru out.
For the bathroom, there is a product that looks like tile but is actually more like a vinyl tile with some special grout, that might stand up better to a flexable floor.
You do want to make sure the kitchen floor hasn't been glued down before you start ripping and tearing.
a Toe Kick Saw will allow you to cut the old floor under the cabinets so you do not have to remove the cupboards
http://www6.homedepot.com/tool-truck-rental/Kick_Toe_Saw/775-647018/


----------



## bud16415 (Aug 13, 2014)

Coming into the talk a little late but I have laid some of all the above before and lived with each numerous years after. I&#8217;m not an installer just a DIY homeowner like yourself. 

Having done full soft and hard wood and refinished a few floors, when laminate came out I had a house that the floors were beyond repair and thought I would give the plastic a try. I used Formica brand knowing how tough the counter tops were and the color and texture we wanted they had. The Formica product back then was just tongue and groove and was installed as a floating floor but had to be glued. The glue was a Formica product also but was basic yellow glue as far as I could tell. Each strip was glued and then wedged in place and the glue came out the top and was wiped off. The cracks were totally invisible unlike the snap together stuff now. 

The store told me that with gluing the floor was waterproof except at the edges. That floor has been down 20 years with dogs and cleaning and lots of spills and still looks like the day I laid it. 

A few years later they started selling the snap together stuff and I asked about it at the same place and was told no glue required except if you want it water tight then you can glue it. I don&#8217;t know if they still say that or not. 

IMHO I think it boils down to the look you want and if the product gives you that. Secondly is cost if you can afford it. 

I see a lot of really cheap laminate being sold and I wouldn&#8217;t use that except maybe in a low traffic area like a bedroom maybe. It looks great but I don&#8217;t think the quality is the same as a better product. 

Myself if I was planning this to be a rental in a few years I would look at the most durable products.


----------



## JoeLink (Aug 20, 2014)

nealtw said:


> That is the proof I was looking for, not the greatest news but Job well done.
> If the older hardwood floor has stood up in the kitchen I think you should be able to hard wood thru out.
> For the bathroom, there is a product that looks like tile but is actually more like a vinyl tile with some special grout, that might stand up better to a flexable floor.
> You do want to make sure the kitchen floor hasn't been glued down before you start ripping and tearing.
> ...





bud16415 said:


> Coming into the talk a little late but I have laid some of all the above before and lived with each numerous years after. Im not an installer just a DIY homeowner like yourself.
> 
> Having done full soft and hard wood and refinished a few floors, when laminate came out I had a house that the floors were beyond repair and thought I would give the plastic a try. I used Formica brand knowing how tough the counter tops were and the color and texture we wanted they had. The Formica product back then was just tongue and groove and was installed as a floating floor but had to be glued. The glue was a Formica product also but was basic yellow glue as far as I could tell. Each strip was glued and then wedged in place and the glue came out the top and was wiped off. The cracks were totally invisible unlike the snap together stuff now.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the replies guys.

Right now it seems like my best bet is engineered hardwoods.


----------



## slownsteady (Aug 20, 2014)

> Right now it seems like my best bet is engineered hardwoods.



I'd like to hear your reasoning on this. Not that I disagree, that is totally a value judgement. But since my basement floor is coming up soon, I'd like to know any factors that made a difference in your decision (price is a legit factor BTW).


----------



## zannej (Aug 20, 2014)

neal, thank you for the link to the toe-kick saw! I didn't know that existed and I may rent or buy one when its time to take out my old parquet floors. That tool would have come in so handy when I was removing the old ruined floor in my bathroom. As it was I had to chisel that sucker out by hand. Wish they had an attachment like that for my Matrix.

I thought that I had commented on this post but apparently I didn't.. Maybe my post didn't go through...

I like the colors of the floors you were looking for, Joe. I would avoid the ones with the little grooves just because they would be harder to clean. All sorts of crud can build up in that. The colors you showed were pretty much what my mother is looking for, although we are considering vinyl plank. We've had bad luck with some water issues.

Since you have pets, I would recommend getting the little rubber/plastic mats with a bit of a lip at the edge go place under water bowls to protect the floor. I have those and they have really helped-- it also helps under bowls with wet food and even dry food since it tends to catch a lot of stuff. I forget the name right now, but Walmart sells some rectangular shaped ones.

Good luck with your flooring search! I hope you show us some pictures of what you choose.


----------



## slownsteady (Aug 20, 2014)

> Since you have pets, I would recommend getting the little rubber/plastic mats with a bit of a lip at the edge go place under water bowls to protect the floor. I have those and they have really helped-- it also helps under bowls with wet food and even dry food since it tends to catch a lot of stuff. I forget the name right now, but Walmart sells some rectangular shaped ones.



A boot tray works well and has room for multiple bowls. Found mine at Lowes


----------



## mabloodhound (Aug 23, 2014)

I just finished putting down 330 SF of laminate in our kitchen.   I had gone through the same thinking process as you are and ended up buying the SwiftLock laminate for less than $500.
The one question I asked the salesman who is also an installer is how well the new laminates stand up.   He said he put engineered flooring in his kitchen 8 years ago, thinking it was the better product, but now he said it looks terrible.
The new laminates will take the abuse and clean up easily (like Bud said).
If you have the money than by all means go with solid hardwood.   But I would forget the engineered flooring in the kitchen. JMO


----------



## zannej (Aug 24, 2014)

slownsteady said:


> A boot tray works well and has room for multiple bowls. Found mine at Lowes



That's a good idea too!


----------

