# High Water Consumption--help me solve a mystery?



## mperrill (Sep 28, 2014)

Here is my problem.  My water bill is double that of my neighbors.  Since we have similar sized houses, families, and similar lifestyles, I think I have a leak or some other plumbing problem.  My neighbors pay $40 - $45 per month.  I usually pay around $90.  This has been going on for a few years (but I did not know it was a problem until I asked what their bills were).

I shut off the main water supply to the house for a few hours and noted no consumption on the meter.  Therefore, I do not think the line from the meter to the house is leaking.  I believe the problem is inside the house.

I have tested my toilets by putting dye in the upper tank. No leaks. I was informed I could have high consumption if the float in the toilet tank was set to rise too high, letting water fall into the overflow drain.  I checked.  One toilet was set to let the water rise pretty high but it was below that overflow drain.  I adjusted it to have the float cut the water off even lower anyway.

I have replaced the flapper and the float in both toilets.

I do not have a pool or an irrigation system.  Even though something is using a lot of water, I don't hear water going thru the pipes when it shouldn't be.  In other words, if water is being used, the washer is in use, the dishwasher is in use or someone flushed a toilet.

My house is 15 years old.  We have all the same appliances and fixtures as when it was first built. I have a dishwasher, clothes washer, electric water heater. The fridge has an ice maker.  

That's my story. Any ideas?  What would you do?  I am thinking of shutting down one room at a time that has some water consuming appliance to try and isolate the issue.  That will take time and be a pain. Any better solutions?

Thanks for reading.
Mark


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## kok328 (Sep 28, 2014)

Maybe your meter is bad. Local municipality can swap it out - no charge. How does the gallons compare to your neighbors?


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## havasu (Sep 28, 2014)

Why are you so certain that you have a leak somewhere? Have you seen the neighbor's bill personally? If so, how does this compare to how many persons are occupying your home compared to them? Do you shower more? Do you do more laundry than them? Is your landscaping more lush than theirs? I would first try to match apples to apples, then, contact the water department for an in home audit. Most municipalities appreciate water conserving customers, and are usually glad to come out to assist you.


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## havasu (Sep 28, 2014)

kok328 said:


> Maybe your meter is bad. Local municipality can swap it out - no charge. How does the gallons compare to your neighbors?



Or...maybe the neighbor's meter is bad?


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## mperrill (Sep 28, 2014)

Thanks for your replies so far.

Of course my 
neighbors usage and mine will be different.  Someone will shower more or less.  But not enough to account for a double bill. The neighbors on either side have similar family sizes.  I have 4.  One has 6, the other 3.  They both pay half of my bill.  

No, I did not ask to see their water bills with my own eyes.  That would have been incredibly rude.  They have no reason to lie.  

I wonder if the meter could be bad.  That's a possibility.  Our water authority is not very user friendly but it might be worth a shot.

Any other ideas?


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## odorf (Sep 28, 2014)

turn off everything in the house

go out to your meter.  look  at the numbers
 next to them is a little wheel,  is it turning?  if its turning water is being used. 


http://www.buywatermeter.com/photo/pl153543-sdn_single_jet_dry_type_vane_wheel_water_meter_plastic.jpg


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## kok328 (Sep 28, 2014)

could it be that the neighbors have low flow everything and you may not?
Do you run a water softener?


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## JoeD (Sep 28, 2014)

Odorf has the best advice. Check the meter to see if it is registering any usage when nothing is supposed to be being used.
Some meter have a little red triangle instead of the wheel.


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## mperrill (Sep 28, 2014)

No, I don't have a water softener.  It's possible the neighbors both have low flow everything.  I think the answer is no though.

The two best ideas I have seen so far is to actually see the consumption in gallons for my neighbors and compare it to my consumption. And the possibility that my meter is bad.

I will turn off everything in the house and check the meter sometime this coming week but, like I wrote earlier, I don't hear any water moving thru the pipes when there is not a good reason for it.


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## mperrill (Sep 28, 2014)

Thanks again to everyone who contributed something so far.  I'm still open to ideas though.  I don't want anyone to think the last word has been spoken.


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## havasu (Sep 28, 2014)

In my area, the water, trash and sewer charges are combined. I hope you can see how easily these numbers could be skewed if not deciphered correctly. 

I myself dealt with this same issue a few years back. On my vacation home, I noticed my meter still running after everything inside the house was shut down completely. I found a 3/4" PVC tee, leading to my rear sprinklers, had cracked. Unfortunately, this fitting was under a concrete slab. Yeah, it was alot of work and even more money to repair.


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## nealtw (Sep 28, 2014)

Is this a concrete slab house with lines under the slab?


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## havasu (Sep 29, 2014)

Nope. A mobile with irrigation lines (with glued fittings!) under one of the slabs. Not no more.


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## nealtw (Sep 29, 2014)

havasu said:


> Nope. A mobile with irrigation lines (with glued fittings!) under one of the slabs. Not no more.



I was asking the OP..:hide:


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## odorf (Sep 29, 2014)

you still be using water even tho you cant hear it
.


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## beachguy005 (Sep 29, 2014)

Watching the meter when nothing is on is your best bet to start but you also need to look at your appliances.  Toilet volume, faucet and shower head water flow rates have changed over the years and yours are 15 years old.  Your pressure may be higher also.
There are also lots of little habits that we may think everyone else does like allowing water to run continuously when brushing your teeth or filling the washing machine to the fullest level when doing a load.  Your neighbors habits may be a lot different than yours.


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## kok328 (Sep 29, 2014)

I work at a large property where we have one house for girls and one house for boys.
When I get their utility bills to process, there is quiet the difference between the two identical homes.
How many females versus males, difference between you and your neighbor?


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## odorf (Sep 29, 2014)

you can not compare your water usage to your neighbors.:rofl:
 wont work,  they do things different than you do.

it has been suggested that you look at your meter with all faucets closed.  this is to see if there is anything running that should not be.

then,  after we have that info,  we can either offer advice or have you to start isolating systems to find the leak.

forget about the people next door, they have nothing to do with your problem:2cents:


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## Paulram (Oct 3, 2014)

I'm in South Florida. My water consumption and my electric bill were slowly increasing  for a while. My water heater is electric. For months now I noticed  that in one tiled area the flooring was warmer . With no water usage , toilets , shower etc the little wheel in the water meter was turning, quite rapidly at that. I turned off the valve to the house and the whelel stopped spinning. I turned it back on and the wheel resumed spinning. I then turned off the cold water input to the water heater and the whelel stopped spinning. I therefore concluded that I had a leak , a slab leak at that , in my hot water distribution. I searched youtube and saw a clip that was similar to my situation. The continuous flow of cold water into the water heater accounted for the electric bill being higher. I am in the planning phase for the repair and am considering using PEX tubing with a reroute through  the attic. My last water bill was almost four times as much. That's a serious leak in that copper piping. For three months it was 64,000 gals of water! The bigger the leak the faster that little wheell in meter turns. In the meantime , till it is fixed, I am controlling the leak with the cold water shutoff valve to the water heater.


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## nealtw (Oct 3, 2014)

Paulram said:


> I'm in South Florida. My water consumption and my electric bill were slowly increasing  for a while. My water heater is electric. For months now I noticed  that in one tiled area the flooring was warmer . With no water usage , toilets , shower etc the little wheel in the water meter was turning, quite rapidly at that. I turned off the valve to the house and the whelel stopped spinning. I turned it back on and the wheel resumed spinning. I then turned off the cold water input to the water heater and the whelel stopped spinning. I therefore concluded that I had a leak , a slab leak at that , in my hot water distribution. I searched youtube and saw a clip that was similar to my situation. The continuous flow of cold water into the water heater accounted for the electric bill being higher. I am in the planning phase for the repair and am considering using PEX tubing with a reroute through  the attic. My last water bill was almost four times as much. That's a serious leak in that copper piping. For three months it was 64,000 gals of water! The bigger the leak the faster that little wheell in meter turns. In the meantime , till it is fixed, I am controlling the leak with the cold water shutoff valve to the water heater.



Welcome to the site, sounds like you have this figured out, now just to get it fixed.


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## beachguy005 (Oct 3, 2014)

We get a lot of that here in S Florida.  I did mine a while back, not because of a leak but because I was renovating and I knew it would likely happen.
Ran PEX in the attic.


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## mperrill (Oct 11, 2014)

As someone suggested, I shut off all water-consuming devices in the house and went out to check the meter.  The triangle was not spinning.  But sat there and watched it for a couple of minutes (3 - 5 mins probably).  During that time the triangle was stationary...then it made a slow revolution.  Then it was stationary again for another minute until it made another slow revolution.  Is that normal?

Here are answers to a few other questions that cropped up since I posted last:

No water softener in my house.  
Gender make up of the house hold = 3 male (2 children) and 1 adult female
Once the main water line enters the house, everything is exposed.  I have an unfinished basement.  No water lines under the slab.


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## nealtw (Oct 11, 2014)

That sounds like a toilet topping up, were the toilets turned off when you did that test? You want to have a close look at the pressure release valve on the hot water tank. If it releases some pressure the tank would top up. Perhaps the icemaker refilled itself in the fridge. ????????

If the pressure valve lets water out, where does that water go, could that be the heat souce in the floor?


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## beachguy005 (Oct 11, 2014)

Do you have a shut off valve between the meter and your house? If you do, close it so you can get a better idea if it's your meter or a water leak outside the house.


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## mperrill (Oct 11, 2014)

The neighbor saw me looking at the meter and came over.  He also thought of the pressure release valve on the water heater.  He opened a small drain on a 90 degree angle in the pipe.  We drained 6 to 8 oz of water out of that. So then we went outside and checked the ground below where it vents.  Dry as a bone.  

Another detail.  Our meters are read digitally, automatically.  The water company drives a van down the street and the meters push their readouts to the van automatically. There is no meter reader going house to house like when I was a kid.  The neighbor thought there may be a screwup and I'm getting billed for someone else's meter.

Next time I get a bill, I'm going to go out and see if the start / end usage figures match up with what the meter actually shows.


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## nealtw (Oct 11, 2014)

We have that same system, and knowing when they read is the trick. If you can not find out when that reading will be taken, you need to read and record your readings often so when you get the bill you can figure out the start date. Or just keep track of how much you are using for a month it should be very close to what you are being billed for.


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## odorf (Oct 12, 2014)

mperrill said:


> As someone suggested, I shut off all water-consuming devices in the house and went out to check the meter.  The triangle was not spinning.  But sat there and watched it for a couple of minutes (3 - 5 mins probably).  During that time the triangle was stationary...then it made a slow revolution.  Then it was stationary again for another minute until it made another slow revolution.  Is that normal?
> 
> Here are answers to a few other questions that cropped up since I posted last:
> 
> ...





no,  that is not normal.  if the triangle is moving.  you are using water

you need to find out which fixture is using it.  first place to look is toilets
go sit on the toilet for 10 minutes and look in the tank,  see if it is leaking/running
if no.

step 2

the valves under the sinks and behind the washer, ice maker, toilets
turn ALL valves off.
go stare at meter triangle.  

if no movement,  turn on 1 valve  ck meter, another valve ck meter, etc . it is a slow process
check all the cold first. then do the hot

bet you a cold drink its a toilet flapper


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## Paulram (Oct 14, 2014)

I got done repairing my slab leak. I opted for a work around , not wanting to dig up the tiling and slab for the repair. I used pex and sharkbites . Ran the pex in the attic , and down the walls. The first photo shows the hot water pipe to the system . The old pipe was cut out and has a green cap. the second and subsequent photos are the laundry room from where it taps to the kitchen and to other bathrooms. The tricky part for me was determining which was the piping from the other side of the house. I did not do well with that , and unfortunately my inability to determine the correct one resulted in cutting the wrong pipe. After that I figured which one was correct . This led to additional steps and fortunately pex and sharkbites are easy to work with. The pex in the attic is a continuous run with no couplings and  needless to say I am keeping the work areas open for observation till I am I am a bit more satisfied with my work. Also to make access to the pipes easier , I cut off the clothes washing machine drain and stuffed it with hand towels to prevent sewer smell in the laundry room.. I would be so lost had I not taken videos when the house was being built. Now I wonder how much this job would have cost. Regards
Paul


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## odorf (Oct 14, 2014)

mperrill,  the picture above me,  do you see the black poly sleeve the copper is in, as it comes out of the slab?

               i have seen, a framing nail penitrate the copper threw the sleeve.  the pipe will not leak until the nail rusts into.
                then the leak will spray into the sleeve.  you cant see it, but your meter will run when nothing is on
               and your foundation is being washed out under the house.  especially in florida,where you have sand instead of 
               dirt.
                   just telling you where water can go.


anyone see the code violation in that picture?  its no big deal, but its there


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## oldognewtrick (Oct 14, 2014)

More than once I've found leaks by a nail in a supply line that didn't leak for years until it rusted. Had a hard time convincing the homeowner till we cut a whole in the ceiling. The roofer is _always_ guilty until proven innocent.


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## carnuck (Oct 17, 2014)

We had some fun here because they only recently switched everyone to separate meters. One guy complained because he was getting $300-400 bills and he checked for leaks. None. Turned out they had the meter in backwards!


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## frodo (Oct 18, 2014)

backwards?  then he should be getting a credit every mth.


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## carnuck (Oct 20, 2014)

It went from zero to 999,994 so that didn't work well.


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