# Swapping non GFCI plugs for GFCI plugs



## swimmer_spe (Jun 12, 2016)

I am not an electrician, but I understand enough of how to do things, but...

After breaking the breaker, can you simply swap out plugs that are not GFCI for ones that are GFCI?


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## beachguy005 (Jun 12, 2016)

Once you trip the breaker to break the circuit, you can switch them out.  It doesn't make much sense to do it just to do it, so I'm hoping you have a particular reason to change them.  Also note that GFCIs are feed thru rated, which means that 1 GFCI receptacle will protect other regular receptacles that are on the same circuit and down stream.  For example, if your kitchen receptacles are all on the same circuit, then one GFCI receptacle, installed in the correct location on that circuit, will protect all those other regular receptacles.


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## joecaption (Jun 12, 2016)

Only place there really needed is bathroom, kitchen over the counters, garage, outside outlets in some areas in the basement.


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## bud16415 (Jun 12, 2016)

Additional information:

If your wiring is old and dated and was done in the days when a bare copper grounding wire was not used a GFIC can be used to correct that problem as the bare copper ground wire is not required to make the GFIC work. It will bring an old box into compliance. The outlet will come with stickers and if used as such it has to be marked to show it has no safety ground. You will also find stickers that are for any outlet down stream that is protected and they should be marked also. 

There are locations that by code have to be GFIC that in no way means you cant use them in other locations you feel you want added protection.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 12, 2016)

Given the generalization, perhaps you can avail yourself of a more accurate responses by voicing your motivation, the type of recep. you're interested in changing, what their enclosures are made of and the conductors within those enclosures.


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## swimmer_spe (Jun 12, 2016)

My kitchen has no GFCI plugs. I do not see anywhere where there is any protection besides the normal breakers in the panel. They are all 3 prong plugs. 

My thinking is GFCI is safer than normal plugs in the kitchen. So, can I swap them out.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 12, 2016)

Depending upon the age of the dwelling you may have aluminum or copper conductors, with or without a ground, and each are treated somewhat differently, both as a kitchen circuit or as a general plug circuit.

If you'd be so kind as to turn the breaker off and open a box and discuss the contents, it would be a big help.

As a "generalization" GFI offer protection.


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## swimmer_spe (Jun 16, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Depending upon the age of the dwelling you may have aluminum or copper conductors, with or without a ground, and each are treated somewhat differently, both as a kitchen circuit or as a general plug circuit.
> 
> If you'd be so kind as to turn the breaker off and open a box and discuss the contents, it would be a big help.
> 
> As a "generalization" GFI offer protection.



http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums...8-9B21-48CA-97B2-62D641AEC920_zpsvch4tot2.jpg
http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums...B-0604-4BD3-922F-66C40EDF385F_zpsnfx0si5l.jpg
http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums...5-B6CF-48E2-A5BE-3B5A3FD0E708_zpsilnzmu7q.jpg

This is the same plug in all 3 pictures. 3 wires, black, white, bare copper.


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## nealtw (Jun 16, 2016)

With just one cable, that would be the end of the line, you would just wire to the line side. But you may find an outlet on the same circuit where you could protect both or all with one gfci.


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## swimmer_spe (Jun 16, 2016)

nealtw said:


> With just one cable, that would be the end of the line, you would just wire to the line side. But you may find an outlet on the same circuit where you could protect both or all with one gfci.



So, I do not need one at every outlet? As long as one of them has it, the whole run is protected? Why are GFCI used then? Doesn't a breaker do the same then, but at the other end of the run?


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## Snoonyb (Jun 16, 2016)

If there are no additional conductors in the box then this is the end of the circuit run.

A GFI in these particular locations protect only those recep., and to protect otheres in the chain you'll need to locate those up the chain, in particular, boxes with more than single conductors.

A GFI breaker protects the whole circuit, so before you install that, be sure and define the run because appliances with initial large current draw will trip the breaker.


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## KULTULZ (Jun 16, 2016)

swimmer_spe said:


> So, I do not need one at every outlet?



No.



> As long as one of them has it, the whole run is protected?


The circuit is protected from where the GFCI receptacle is installed downstream if wired properly.



> Why are GFCI used then? Doesn't a breaker do the same then, but at the other end of the run?


A GFCI breaker will protect the whole circuit.

A GFCI device trips and stops current flow (at and beyond installation point) if it senses an electric flow imbalance.



> A ground fault circuit interrupter (*GFCI*)  or Residual Current Device (RCD) is a device that shuts off an electric  power circuit when it detects that current is flowing along an  unintended path, such as through water or a person.
> *GFCI - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*
> 
> https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/*GFCI*


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## bud16415 (Jun 16, 2016)

A GFCI and a circuit breaker are two different things and do two different jobs. The breaker protects the wiring and the house from too much current going thru the wire causing heat and fire. If you grab a hold of the black and white wire the current will go thru your body and kill you and as long as your resistance is such that less than 15 amps is flowing thru you the breaker doesn&#8217;t care. The GFCI is to protect you and if even the slightest amount of current finds its way out of the wire and thru you like touching a wire that has a break in the insulation or dropping the hair drier in the bathtub the GFIC will stop the power in an instant.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 17, 2016)

However, they both respond the same, and one is not safer than the other.


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## nealtw (Jun 17, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> However, they both respond the same, and one is not safer than the other.



That might imply they do the same job, but of coarse they do not.
http://ecmweb.com/content/how-gfcis-work


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## swimmer_spe (Jun 17, 2016)

So, here is what I gathered.

GFCI is a different type of protection than a normal circuit breaker.

If I can find the outlet that is first in line, I can wire one in there and then the whole run beyond is protected.


Now, one last question... White or Black, which goes where?


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## nealtw (Jun 17, 2016)

You have to figure witch set of wire has the power coming into the box and that set of wires go to the line side. Black to gold screw, white to silver screw.
You will find* line* and *load* marked on the outlet


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## nealtw (Jun 17, 2016)

swimmer_spe said:


> So, here is what I gathered.
> 
> GFCI is a different type of protection than a normal circuit breaker.
> 
> ...



To find the first outlet in the circuit.
Turn off the circuit and find all the outlets that have no power.
Try the  one furthest away from the one you had open, disconnect one black wire and protect the end from touching anything. 
Turn the breaker on. If that outlet now has power the line side is still hooked up and if all the other outlets are dead you have the first outlet.
If that outlet has no power switch the black wires and check again.


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## bud16415 (Jun 17, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> However, they both respond the same, and one is not safer than the other.



I dont understand your post. Yes they both interrupt the supply of power, but they do it under two entirely different sets of circumstances. One is required for every bit of electrical service and the other has limitations to where it is required based around the likelihood of coming in contact with a ground fault. There is all kinds of safety, and circuit overload and ground fault are completely different. 

Your statement is correct but I dont see where it is helpful to a person trying to learn and decide on if they want to add GFCI to a circuit that is already protected for current overload by circuit breakers. Additional facts should build on a persons understanding of a subject. When I read your post as if I understood very little on the subject I could misconstrue the information as if I have one I dont need the other.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 17, 2016)

nealtw said:


> That might imply they do the same job, but of coarse they do not.
> http://ecmweb.com/content/how-gfcis-work



Actually they do, as the article points out, and protect from elec. shock.

The difference is in the results from a failure, and when the breaker fails the wiring is also no longer protected.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 17, 2016)

swimmer_spe said:


> So, here is what I gathered.
> 
> GFCI is a different type of protection than a normal circuit breaker.
> 
> ...



KULUTZ posted a correct example of in-line wiring from a GFCI recep. and to put it into words; with the face of the recep. facing you and the ground stake down, the hot, (black in your case), goes on the right, the neutral is on the left.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 17, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> I dont understand your post. Yes they both interrupt the supply of power, but they do it under two entirely different sets of circumstances. One is required for every bit of electrical service and the other has limitations to where it is required based around the likelihood of coming in contact with a ground fault. There is all kinds of safety, and circuit overload and ground fault are completely different.
> 
> Your statement is correct but I dont see where it is helpful to a person trying to learn and decide on if they want to add GFCI to a circuit that is already protected for current overload by circuit breakers. Additional facts should build on a persons understanding of a subject. When I read your post as if I understood very little on the subject I could misconstrue the information as if I have one I dont need the other.



And your post #13 isn't?


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## KULTULZ (Jun 17, 2016)

> In addition, *GFCI protection devices fail at times, leaving the  switching contacts closed and allowing the device to continue to provide  power without protection*. According to a 1999 study by the American  Society of Home Inspectors, 21% of GFCI circuit breakers and 19% of GFCI  receptacles inspected didn't provide protection, leaving the energized  circuit unprotected. In most cases, damage to the internal transient  voltage surge protectors (metal-oxide varistors) that protect the GFCI  sensing circuit were responsible for the failures of the protection  devices. In areas of high lightning activity, such as southwest Florida,  the failure rate for GFCI circuit breakers and receptacles was over  50%!



This why they must be tested on a monthly basis. Outside power surges and transient surges may damage them. The newer *quality*models are self test.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 17, 2016)

Carefull, you are about to enter the realm of "excessive competency".


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## KULTULZ (Jun 17, 2016)

swimmer_spe said:


> So, here is what I gathered.
> 
> GFCI is a different type of protection than a normal circuit breaker.
> 
> If I can find the outlet that is first in line, I can wire one in there and then the whole run beyond is protected.



If you desire to protect the complete circuit, you might want to consider a GFCI breaker.

The below ill shows wire attachment to GFCI receptacle as a method known as backstabbing. It is better/safer to connect the wires to the device using the terminal screws.


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## KULTULZ (Jun 17, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Carefull, you are about to enter the realm of "excessive competency".



I am well known for allowing my mouth to overload my a$$. Just ask my 'ol lady... :hide:


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## nealtw (Jun 17, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Actually they do, as the article points out, and protect from elec. shock.
> 
> The difference is in the results from a failure, and when the breaker fails the wiring is also no longer protected.



All I know is when you are working in the rain the cord can be in water all day no problem, when you add a gfci you better keep the cord ends dry.


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## KULTULZ (Jun 17, 2016)

nealtw said:


> All I know is when you are working in the rain the cord can be in water all day no problem, when you add a gfci you better keep the cord ends dry.





R U saying you work on a wet job site with no GFCI protection?


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## KULTULZ (Jun 17, 2016)

I was just re-reading this thread and came across this-



swimmer_spe said:


> My kitchen has no GFCI plugs. I do not see anywhere where there is any protection besides the normal breakers in the panel. They are all 3 prong plugs.
> 
> *My thinking is GFCI is safer than normal plugs in the kitchen. So, can I swap them out*.



*DEFINITELY!*

As mentioned, you want GFCI protection anywhere around water such as the kitchen, bath, laundry areas, unfinished basements and outside.

Due to the age of the home, the wiring is most likely not compliant with current code and would cost a fortune to bring it into compliance but you can make it safer.


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## nealtw (Jun 17, 2016)

KULTULZ said:


> R U saying you work on a wet job site with no GFCI protection?



All my life I worked in the rain long before gfcis and you do get used to a tingle from time to time.
The cord getting in the water is a pain in the *** but the real surprise I got was with a gfci and double insulated saw ( two prong plug) if you are not grounded power will go thru you and back to the saw when the saw is running and it does not pick up a problem.
When you have had the cord end in a puddle and the gfci will not reset, spray wd40 in the the plug.

So when you drop the hair dryer in the sink and there is no ground ( plastic pipes) it might trip.


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## bud16415 (Jun 17, 2016)

KULTULZ said:


> If you desire to protect the complete circuit, you might want to consider a GFCI breaker.
> 
> The below ill shows wire attachment to GFCI receptacle as a method known as backstabbing. It is better/safer to connect the wires to the device using the terminal screws.



The way wires connect to a GFCI thru the back are quite a bit different than back stabs that have a friction spring connection. The back wired GFCIs are a mechanical connection and the screw tightens the clamp. The wire is not intended to have a hook under the screw head. 

I wish they made more outlets with the clamp connection it is a very good design IMO.


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## nealtw (Jun 17, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> The way wires connect to a GFCI thru the back are quite a bit different than back stabs that have a friction spring connection. The back wired GFCIs are a mechanical connection and the screw tightens the clamp. The wire is not intended to have a hook under the screw head.
> 
> I wish they made more outlets with the clamp connection it is a very good design IMO.



If a guy read the instruction , he may get that stab and tighten thing, I wrapped the screws with mine and on the last one I loosened the screw to much and the nut fell off inside, took an hour to shake it just right to get the nut back in place and start the screw, then I read the instructions.:rofl:


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## KULTULZ (Jun 17, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> The way wires connect to a GFCI thru the back are quite a bit different than back stabs that have a friction spring connection. The back wired GFCIs are a mechanical connection and the screw tightens the clamp. The wire is not intended to have a hook under the screw head.
> 
> I wish they made more outlets with the clamp connection it is a very good design IMO.



I've seen both. There is nothing wrong (IMO) with the ones you are describing. You just have to be careful what you are throwing in the cart.


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## swimmer_spe (Jun 17, 2016)

KULTULZ said:


> I was just re-reading this thread and came across this-
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The house is 1970s. It is all copper.Besides the lack of GFCI, what is not to code? What is missing?


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## nealtw (Jun 17, 2016)

Mostly all you have worry about is what other home owners have done, I think here if you actually change any wiring in the kitchen you have to bring it up to code, but if it works it's good. And that does not include changing outlets.


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## KULTULZ (Jun 17, 2016)

swimmer_spe said:


> The house is 1970s. It is all copper.Besides the lack of GFCI, what is not to code?
> 
> What is missing?



...whew...

Minimum of 2 20A counter-top circuits- separate lighting circuits - 20A GFCI  circuits for GD/DW - 20A microwave circuit (if not counter-top model) - not necessary but may desire separate 15A or 20A circuit for fridge.

See what I mean?

I *think* (depends on local AHJ) as long as there is no major kitchen remodel, the old work can be grandfathered in.

But you do want to GFCI the counter-top circuits at the minimum with a GFCI receptacle(s) so if one trips you won't have to walk to the box.

And then AFCI comes into play... :help:


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## swimmer_spe (Jun 17, 2016)

KULTULZ said:


> ...whew...
> 
> Minimum of 2 20A counter-top circuits- separate lighting circuits - 20A GFCI  circuits for GD/DW - 20A microwave circuit (if not counter-top model) - not necessary but may desire separate 15A or 20A circuit for fridge.
> 
> ...




I understand.  I am in Canada BTW, so I know that local codes apply. 

I will not be doing a remodel for a few years, but the GFCI and possibly the AFCI will be done soon.

Not sure if fridge is on it's own circuit. I know the plugs may be all on the same one.
There are some breakers not labeled. So, guess what I will be doing shortly?


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