# Help Sizing A Header



## Moose71275 (Sep 20, 2016)

I'm removing a load bearing wall in my home and need to install a header.  The span is 9' 6". The second floor and unfinished attic would sit on top of it. I am fairly certain I could use double 2x12's but the problem is with the low ceilings already I can't really afford to loose the head room. I was wondering what size LVL could be used, 9  1/4 would work but I'm not certain if this would be sufficient to hold the load. I think the only other option would be steel. Can anyone provide what dimensions I would need for an LVL and then also for steel?  Are there any other options other than these? Thanks in advance.


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## bud16415 (Sep 20, 2016)

First off welcome to the forum. 

How do you know it is a load bearing wall? Is there a basement / crawl space below? do you have the ceiling opened up yet? Any chance of getting a photo of what&#8217;s up there? Are the floor joists above ending on the wall? Is there a header now at the smaller opening and also one at the entry opening? 

I&#8217;m not a pro but some will be along soon, and I suspect they will ask the same. Are you going to put a post at the end of the yellow line or span across to the steps? 

As to sizing most of the pros will advise you get a eng. to sign off on the header. If you are going to wing it I&#8217;m sure you will get some advice. You can also go wider with the beam if you can&#8217;t go taller.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 20, 2016)

Assuming that the 2nd floor stacks directly above the 1st, have you opened the ceiling or wall, that appears to have plumbing in it?


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## Moose71275 (Sep 20, 2016)

Yes there is a basement which I can tell from there that it is a load bearing wall. I already have it opened up, the floor joist span left to right above the family room, so from the side the garage is on towards the kitchen. These joists do not end at the wall, they go over the wall about 2 feet and then they switch direction. So the joists over the kitchen run front to back. Yes I plan on putting a post where the yellow line ends so it wont span all the way to the steps. This is actually where I have already moved the plumbing, the water lines now run up this post and then back over. Here is a photo of the blueprints to give more detail.


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## nealtw (Sep 20, 2016)

Do you have the kitchen ceiling open to see the joists?
Is the roof structure engineered trusses?


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## bud16415 (Sep 20, 2016)

Here is a beam calculator and if you know your numbers you can figure it out. they have a good example to follow.  You could see how many 2x10 it will take to carry the load as you say you have 9.25&#8221; to work with. The LVL makers should have numbers for their product as well. pretty much the header will be taking the average floor load of the bed room and the two baths above plus whatever load is above that that rests on the beam. (edit) Well half the load

http://www.timbertoolbox.com/


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## nealtw (Sep 20, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Here is a beam calculator and if you know your numbers you can figure it out. they have a good example to follow.  You could see how many 2x10 it will take to carry the load as you say you have 9.25 to work with. The LVL makers should have numbers for their product as well. pretty much the header will be taking the average floor load of the bed room and the two baths above plus whatever load is above that that rests on the beam. (edit) Well half the load
> 
> http://www.timbertoolbox.com/



To early for that Bud, Live and dead load of the floor above.
Live and dead load of roof if any.

Studs and solid blocking have to be installed in the basement and depending on the load the footing size may come into question.

A normal footing might be 8x16 and for a point load like this that footing would be expanded to 10 x24x24 or 10x36x36 depending on the load and the soil conditions.


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## Moose71275 (Sep 20, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Do you have the kitchen ceiling open to see the joists?
> Is the roof structure engineered trusses?


I do not have the kitchen ceiling open other than being able to see up and in from the opening where the wall was, and yes the roof is engineered trusses.


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## nealtw (Sep 20, 2016)

For A Floor Which Also Supports A Ceiling Below...

All of the above = 10.3 psf
Subtract the insulation = -1.8 psf
Add 5/8" gypsum board = +2.8 psf
Lights/Misc. = 1.0 psf
Total Dead Loads = 10.3 - 1.8 + 2.8 + 1.0 = 12.3 psf
Live Load = 40 psf for residential occupancie

 Borrowed from

http://www.mcvicker.com/resguide/page012.htm


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## nealtw (Sep 20, 2016)

To figure the square footage  is the bedroom or the portion that will be supported by the beam and load for that will be half but he area of the bathroom will be all of that load.
so if the beam will be (9' x 10' x 55 lbs/2)  + (9' x 3' x 55 lbs)
I think the first joist in the kitchen will be on the other side of the stairs


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## bud16415 (Sep 20, 2016)

nealtw said:


> To early for that Bud, Live and dead load of the floor above.
> Live and dead load of roof if any.
> 
> Studs and solid blocking have to be installed in the basement and depending on the load the footing size may come into question.
> ...



Of course what ever load ends up on the post has to go all the way to a footing. The reason I asked if there was a basement. When I was rough figuring I was just going 100# per sq ft / 2 + what ever of the bathrooms is cantilevered over the wall now. 

He has room for 2x10&#8217;s pick a deflection that you can live with and will pass. If you use 100#  loading you then have a 2X safety factor.  Half the load goes on the outside wall half on the beam.


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## nealtw (Sep 20, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Of course what ever load ends up on the post has to go all the way to a footing. The reason I asked if there was a basement. When I was rough figuring I was just going 100# per sq ft / 2 + what ever of the bathrooms is cantilevered over the wall now.
> 
> He has room for 2x10s pick a deflection that you can live with and will pass. If you use 100#  loading you then have a 2X safety factor.  Half the load goes on the outside wall half on the beam.



On the outside wall, solid blocking and studs  from the subfloor to the foundation, the foundation will have some height and the load spreads sideways to the footing there would not be a problem.
It is the footing at the other end I would be concerned about.
I agree two LVLs are cheaper than an engineer but the footing is a guessing game but would likely be fine.


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## nealtw (Sep 20, 2016)

We had one engineer that had us open the wall down stairs and install a 3 ft header centered on the load, then the load was split in 2 with 2 points 3 ft apart
With solid blocking to the subfloor


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## bud16415 (Sep 20, 2016)

nealtw said:


> We had one engineer that had us open the wall down stairs and install a 3 ft header centered on the load, then the load was split in 2 with 2 points 3 ft apart
> With solid blocking to the subfloor



Thats ok if the footing goes past the post above and then you spread the load in the basement out over more footing. Would save digging up the basement. If the footing ends though at the post above running a beam back wouldnt do anything as the load is coming straight down the one post thats below the post above. The other one wont carry any load or very little.


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## nealtw (Sep 20, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Thats ok if the footing goes past the post above and then you spread the load in the basement out over more footing. Would save digging up the basement. If the footing ends though at the post above running a beam back wouldnt do anything as the load is coming straight down the one post thats below the post above. The other one wont carry any load or very little.



The curb would stop at the opening in the basement but the footing should continue thru.
That appears to be a box out for furnace vent at the end of the beam, I would expect the wall to continue the required 18"


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## Moose71275 (Sep 20, 2016)

nealtw said:


> The curb would stop at the opening in the basement but the footing should continue thru.
> That appears to be a box out for furnace vent at the end of the beam, I would expect the wall to continue the required 18"


There currently is a post in the basement, it's pretty much at the top of the stairs in line with this wall. The box out for the furnace vent is actually empty other than a laundry schute and now the plumbing that I have moved to that space that was in the wall.


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## nealtw (Sep 20, 2016)

Moose71275 said:


> There currently is a post in the basement, it's pretty much at the top of the stairs in line with this wall. The box out for the furnace vent is actually empty other than a laundry schute and now the plumbing that I have moved to that space that was in the wall.



So, there is a wall below your yellow line, does it extend past the end of your yellow line by 18" or more?


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## nealtw (Sep 20, 2016)

Moose71275 said:


> There currently is a post in the basement, it's pretty much at the top of the stairs in line with this wall. The box out for the furnace vent is actually empty other than a laundry schute and now the plumbing that I have moved to that space that was in the wall.



So, there is a wall below your yellow line, does it extend past the end of your yellow line by 18" or more?
Do the joists over the basement run the same as the joists above?


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## Moose71275 (Sep 20, 2016)

So in the basement there are 4 2x10s together under this wall (they are offset on the family room side about 6 inches ) you can see in the one picture the holes where the pipes used to be, that's where the wall above is. The 4 2x10s run from the back of the house to the middle where they are supported by a steel I beam then another set of 2x10s run from the I beam to the front of the house. Where they meet at the I beam is supported by a post which you can see in the other picture. There is no wall in the basement. The joists in the basement run front to back all of which rest on the steel I beam. The joists in the ceiling of the family room run from side to side perpendicular to the ones in the basement. Then the ones over the kitchen run parallel to the ones in the basement. I think you can see those in the blueprint picture I posted earlier.


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## Moose71275 (Sep 20, 2016)

Second picture


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## nealtw (Sep 20, 2016)

Well that answers all the questions about the basement, thanks.
But, the off set is a problem for the point load, how do you feel about moving your beam to match the beam below, best you like that idea.


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## Moose71275 (Sep 20, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Well that answers all the questions about the basement, thanks.
> But, the off set is a problem for the point load, how do you feel about moving your beam to match the beam below, best you like that idea.


How big of a problem? I don't like that idea at all.


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## nealtw (Sep 20, 2016)

Two choices, 
1 A beam from the garage to  over that beam to pick up the load but it would be cantilevered and would have questionable performance.
2 another beam from the back wall to the steel beam to pick up the load of the bearing point.

Simple math,, if a 4 ply beam to carry the loads of 2 floors. Two should be enough to carry one floor so the beam in the kitchen and the beam in the basement I think could be 2 ply.

On second thought #1 doesn't work does it.


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## Moose71275 (Sep 20, 2016)

Yeah #2 is simple enough. So back to my original question, are 2  9 1/4 LVLs enough to use for the header?


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## nealtw (Sep 20, 2016)

Moose71275 said:


> Yeah #2 is simple enough. So back to my original question, are 2  9 1/4 LVLs enough to use for the header?



I would think more than enough.


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## Moose71275 (Sep 20, 2016)

Excellent, I appreciate all your time with this.


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## nealtw (Sep 20, 2016)

Moose71275 said:


> Excellent, I appreciate all your time with this.



2 studs under each end of the upper beam and don't forget the solid blocking between the lower beam and the sub floor under those points..:thbup:


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## bud16415 (Sep 21, 2016)

nealtw said:


> 2 studs under each end of the upper beam and don't forget the solid blocking between the lower beam and the sub floor under those points..:thbup:



Why only 2 studs on each end? 

Just curious I have often heard you want the same number as you are removing.


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## nealtw (Sep 21, 2016)

You must be hearing things again.
I a beam pocket like the outside wall it will only fit 2 under it with a king beside it, why would you have more on the other end. But you would add a king at the front of the train.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 21, 2016)

And, any header greater than 6' in length requires them.


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## nealtw (Sep 21, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> And, any header greater than 6' in length requires them.



I think it is 5 ft and greater for 2 jack or cripple studs, some engineers will write in 3 when the mean 2 plus the king and other engineers will write 3 and they want 3 plus the king:hide:


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## Snoonyb (Sep 21, 2016)

Or trimmers. As in trimming the load.


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## nealtw (Sep 21, 2016)

I have only seen the word trimmer used in framing windows, but we don't do that style up here.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 21, 2016)

Because you are familiar with commonly used east coast terms, not middle to west coast.


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## nealtw (Sep 21, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Because you are familiar with commonly used east coast terms, not middle to west coast.



Canada..:thbup:


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## Snoonyb (Sep 21, 2016)

While they were still harvesting grapes in Nova Scotia, they were building skyscrapers in New York.


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## nealtw (Sep 21, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> While they were still harvesting grapes in Nova Scotia, they were building skyscrapers in New York.



Yup, with the help of some Canadian natives.
http://www.whitewolfpack.com/2012/09/the-mohawks-who-built-manhattan-photos.html


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## Snoonyb (Sep 21, 2016)

Running away from the Vikings!


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## nealtw (Sep 21, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Running away from the Vikings!



That's not fair,:nono: they maintain the family home where they have been for thousands of years, learned a trade and attempt to be the very best at it and leave home to go to where the work is.


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