# Three way switch doesn't work properly...



## rebelboiis221101 (Oct 29, 2017)

I just bought a house and it has two lights top and bottom of the stairs (different circuits same problem) in the hall ways that do not function 100% basically goes like this. *I can turn the light OFF from both switches in the 3 way, but I can ONLY turn the light on from the switch last used to turn them off.
i.e. If I turn the light ON from switch 1, then walk upstairs I can turn the lights on and off with switch 2. Now if I switch the lights off from switch 2 and walk back downstairs to switch 1, I can no longer turn the lights on from switch 1. I have to go back to Switch 2 to turn them on. The same holds true in reverse. This is happening on both circuits as up stairs and down have different fixtures and two switches each. I have not taken the switches out yet to look at what is going on in there. (Will do this in the morning) looking for advice and what it should look like as I'm no electricition and only have basic understanding and know how when it comes to in home electrical (handy man if you will) I've changed switches and outlets normal handy stuff not so much diagnosing lol thanks in advance!! [emoji16]


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## rebelboiis221101 (Oct 29, 2017)

rebelboiis221101 said:


> I just bought a house and it has two lights top and bottom of the stairs (different circuits same problem) in the hall ways that do not function 100% basically goes like this. *I can turn the light OFF from both switches in the 3 way, but I can ONLY turn the light on from the switch last used to turn them off.
> i.e. If I turn the light ON from switch 1, then walk upstairs I can turn the lights on and off with switch 2. Now if I switch the lights off from switch 2 and walk back downstairs to switch 1, I can no longer turn the lights on from switch 1. I have to go back to Switch 2 to turn them on. The same holds true in reverse. This is happening on both circuits as up stairs and down have different fixtures and two switches each. I have not taken the switches out yet to look at what is going on in there. (Will do this in the morning) looking for advice and what it should look like as I'm no electricition and only have basic understanding and know how when it comes to in home electrical (handy man if you will) I've changed switches and outlets normal handy stuff not so much diagnosing lol thanks in advance!! [emoji16]


Also any ideas why they would gang the switches down stairs and put the switches on opposite walls across from one another  upstairs [emoji52][emoji848] it's bugging me about as bad as having to run around flipping switches lol. Any ideas on how hard it might be to move one or the other to the opposite wall so I could gang them with out major wall/ceiling demo? Thanks again!!


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## jeffmattero76 (Oct 29, 2017)

rebelboiis221101 said:


> I just bought a house and it has two lights top and bottom of the stairs (different circuits same problem) in the hall ways that do not function 100% basically goes like this. *I can turn the light OFF from both switches in the 3 way, but I can ONLY turn the light on from the switch last used to turn them off.
> i.e. If I turn the light ON from switch 1, then walk upstairs I can turn the lights on and off with switch 2. Now if I switch the lights off from switch 2 and walk back downstairs to switch 1, I can no longer turn the lights on from switch 1. I have to go back to Switch 2 to turn them on. The same holds true in reverse. This is happening on both circuits as up stairs and down have different fixtures and two switches each. I have not taken the switches out yet to look at what is going on in there. (Will do this in the morning) looking for advice and what it should look like as I'm no electricition and only have basic understanding and know how when it comes to in home electrical (handy man if you will) I've changed switches and outlets normal handy stuff not so much diagnosing lol thanks in advance!! [emoji16]


There are many different ways to wire 3way switches, but the main concept is the same. Let's call the switchbox with the incoming hot from the panel the "master" and the other switchbox the "slave ". 

At the master switch, the incoming black hot wire would be connected to the COMMON screw (usually a different color screw than the other two). At the slave switch, the black wire that runs to the light fixture connects to the slave COMMON screw. The other two wires on each switch are called the TRAVELERS and it does not matter which traveller screws they are connected to.

To start trying to figure this out, I would suggest taking clear pictures of both switches so that you don't forget how they are currently wired. Turn off the breaker and remove all 3 wires from both switches and separate them from each other. Turn the breaker back on. Test each of the 6 wires to see which one of the 6 is the incoming hot. Once identified, hook that to the common screw and call that the MASTER switch. At the master switch, connect the other two wires to the other two screws. Go to the SLAVE switch and test the three wires there. With the MASTER switch in the UP position, only one of the wires at the SLAVE will be hot. Hook that wire to one of the SLAVE traveller screws. With the MASTER switch in the DOWN position, only 1 of the 2 remaining wires at the SLAVE switch will be hot. Hook that wire to the other traveler screw of the SLAVE switch. The one remaining wire at the SLAVE position is the switched leg that runs to the light fixture, and that wire would be connected to the COMMON screw of the SLAVE switch. 

At that point everything should work correctly and you should be able to control the light from either switch regardless of the position of the other switch.

If you are as anal as I am, I always install the switches into the box so that, when the light is off, BOTH switches are in the DOWN position. That is accomplished by simply turning the switches upside down (if need be) before I attach them to the box.

Let us know how you make out.


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## JoeD (Oct 29, 2017)

Moving the switch involves moving the cables. No way to know how difficult that is without seeing the house.

Sounds like the switches have the wrong wire on the common screw on one or both of them. Until we know the wring in each box no way to know exactly what is wrong.
The basic principle of a three is that the incoming power hot goes to the common of one of the switches. The switched hot to the fixture goes to the common of the other switch.


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## bud16415 (Oct 29, 2017)

We really need you to pull each switch and take a photo and post that. Whoever wired this up could have wired it wrong or they could have used a regular switch in one or both of the locations. Two regular switches wired in series would act like what you are saying as well. If you feel comfortable doing that go ahead. If you need directions on how to safely do that please ask. 

Hopefully it was done right way back when and you have all the wires you will need. Moving the switch location could be easy or could be a lot of work depending again on how wires would have to be run thru finished walls. I would start with solving the switch problem and then see if the location was still a bother. 


I removed your second post as you asked also and welcome to the forum.


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## bud16415 (Oct 29, 2017)

jeffmattero76 said:


> If you are as anal as I am, I always install the switches into the box so that, when the light is off, BOTH switches are in the DOWN position. That is accomplished by simply turning the switches upside down (if need be) before I attach them to the box.



There is no on or off position to a 3way it is a selector switch SPDT. So if you turn the switch upside down and turn the light on from the other switch you will still have to flip the other one up for off.


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## jeffmattero76 (Oct 30, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> There is no on or off position to a 3way it is a selector switch SPDT. So if you turn the switch upside down and turn the light on from the other switch you will still have to flip the other one up for off.


Bud - I guess I should have clarified by noting that with both switches in the UP position or both switches in the DOWN position the light would be off.

I was simply trying to make the point that, when I wire 3ways, I prefer both switches to be in the DOWN position when the light is off. In other words, when the light is off, i font want one of the 3ways to be in the UP position and the other one in the DOWN position. I know it is being anal, but that is how I prefer to wire.


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## afjes_2016 (Oct 30, 2017)

rebelboiis221101: Good advice given so far.

I agree that at this point before worrying about how to gang the upstairs switches together in the same box we concentrate on troubleshooting your switching issue.

As mentioned a 3 way switch does not have an "on" / "off" label on it like single pole switches. So the very first thing you need to let us know is do all four switches not have imprinted on the switch itself "On" or "Off". If any of them do then the wrong switch was used. Once you verify this we can go further with less guess work. I would suggest that you do this first before you even bother to take any of the switches out of their boxes. It may save you a lot of work. If you do end up taking the switches out of the boxes be very very careful to not pull on the conductors too hard which may pull them from the switches; reasoning is that you will need to take pictures of the conductors/wires the way they are presently attached to the switches and then also take clear pictures of the boxes with the switch pull out (not disconnected yet). Do not disconnect any wires yet at this point. You could end up opening a can of worms. Also if you do end up taking off any wires you should BEFORE taking them off the switch mark them. Get some scotch tape and a small piece of paper and tape the paper with the note of where that wire came from on the wire, this way you don't end up mixing up the wires causing you more work.

Also you state


> I just bought a house and it has two lights top and bottom of the stairs (_different circuits_ same problem)


How have you verified this?

I think if we take this a step at a time it will help and again it could be an easy fix.

I just had the same thing at a job. Previous homeowner apparently did not know the difference between the different types of switches and replaced one of the kitchen light 3 way switches with a single pole. Easy fix.


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## bud16415 (Oct 30, 2017)

jeffmattero76 said:


> Bud - I guess I should have clarified by noting that with both switches in the UP position or both switches in the DOWN position the light would be off.
> 
> I was simply trying to make the point that, when I wire 3ways, I prefer both switches to be in the DOWN position when the light is off. In other words, when the light is off, i font want one of the 3ways to be in the UP position and the other one in the DOWN position. I know it is being anal, but that is how I prefer to wire.



Here is a simplified picture of how the circuit works for the OP. 

I guess I do the same thing as you with regards to the switch position. Never even thought about it before though. I never flipped one though if the top location traveler goes to the top screw on both switches and bottom to bottom thats what you would get. If they worked wrong all you would need to do is flip the travelers around or flip the switch. 

Anyway here is a simple drawing for the OP as to what going on.


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## JoeD (Oct 30, 2017)

Poster appears to have never returned. That drawing is only one way of eight that a 3 way can be wired.


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## bud16415 (Oct 30, 2017)

JoeD said:


> Poster appears to have never returned. That drawing is only one way of eight that a 3 way can be wired.



Thats correct but they are all a variation of the same concept, and the concept of this configuration is the simplest for someone new to grasp and illustrated the idea Jeff brought up about keeping the switch configured such that both up have power or both down have power. 

If you can post examples of all 8 please do. 

Quite often a OP comes back and even if he doesnt there are dozens of non members and non posting members,  looking and learning thru these posts.


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## nealtw (Oct 30, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> Thats correct but they are all a variation of the same concept, and the concept of this configuration is the simplest for someone new to grasp and illustrated the idea Jeff brought up about keeping the switch configured such that both up have power or both down have power.
> 
> If you can post examples of all 8 please do.
> 
> Quite often a OP comes back and even if he doesnt there are dozens of non members and non posting members,  looking and learning thru these posts.



Like these.
https://www.homeimprovementweb.com/information/how-to/three-way-switch.htm


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## bud16415 (Oct 31, 2017)

nealtw said:


> Like these.
> https://www.homeimprovementweb.com/information/how-to/three-way-switch.htm



Thats the way they are normally illustrated and for 99.9 % of the people looking at that they can follow it point to point and wire the circuit and it will work. 

Now anyone reading along knows both how it works and how to do it. 

Thanks for finding the link.  
:thbup:


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## afjes_2016 (Oct 31, 2017)

Neal and Bud I read thru that information (link) and it caused my head to spin in a few areas.

If a DIY can follow it and not get confused then that is great.

But really?! Who the heck uses a *hacksaw* to cut Romex?



> *WORKING WITH WIRE
> *To make wire connections, the wire must be pulled through boxes at  least _6 inches_, cut, and then stripped of insulation. Here is the  procedure to follow:
> 
> Cut the cable to the proper length using lineman's pliers *or a hacksaw*.


And technically it is 6 inches out of the box meaning a total of 8 inches in total as 2 inches are within the box.



> Three-way switches require a three-wire cable: the power wire, _*the neutral wire*_, and _the traveller_ or switch wire.


 I don't ever recall connecting the neutral to a 3way switch nor a 3 way only having one traveler wire.

But I won't pick this apart; oh, but do I want to!!

OP (Rebel...)- We are trying to assist you but you need to answer some questions first before we go further.


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## rebelboiis221101 (Oct 31, 2017)

I Thank everyone for the replies some things have come up these few days. I will definitely be getting into this in the morning. Again thank you all. Will post pics / reply in the morning. But to answer if they have on/off, they do not BUT they are all different switches. Each one ranges from what looks like original to the home (very old) to more modern looking. so I'd assume someone changing switches messed up some wires along the way. Too dark tonight to tear into it and get pics.
. Also I don't know if it matters but this house in wired in knob and tube. No grounds but it has an updated panel.


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## rebelboiis221101 (Nov 1, 2017)

Well I geuss I can't share photos. Says the forum has disabled media sharing. My geuss was correct in the fact that the switches are freaking huge! One is newer, 2 are really big with screws on the front and the other must be the oldest being it littleraly has a bar running across to pivet the switch [emoji23] any older and I'd bet this switches would be candles.. They ARE all 3 way switches with 3 screws each expept the one new one has 4 one is ground. I can't tell any colors of wire so I'm going to assume I'll need a multi meter to find power and how to find out what wire goes to where??


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## JoeD (Nov 1, 2017)

Tell us about the cables in the switch box. We might be able to identify the common.

For example if you have two cables and two whites connected then the black from the two wire cable is the common.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 1, 2017)

JoeD said:


> Tell us about the cables in the switch box. We might be able to identify the common.
> 
> For example if you have two cables and two whites connected then the black from the two wire cable is the common.



Knob and tube are individual conductors, no cables IE. 2 conductor romex.


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## nealtw (Nov 1, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Knob and tube are individual conductors, no cables IE. 2 conductor romex.



K&T didn't use 3 wire and switches with 3 screws. Pretty sure.


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## afjes_2016 (Nov 1, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Knob and tube are individual conductors, no cables IE. 2 conductor romex.



Yup as Snoonyb stated accurately - probably no way to tell white from black from red to "pretty pink" meaning which is hot which is neutral, which is a traveler etc.

You state


> They ARE all 3 way switches with 3 screws each expept the one new one has _4 one is ground_


If the switch has 4 screws and one is a green ground screw then it is a 3 way switch.

The ones you state are 3 way switches with 3 screws are any of the screws ground - if not they could be single pole switches.

Older switches did not even have a ground screw. Please it is important for us to know for sure the number of switches and the number of screws per switch we are dealing with.

Please confirm: the light/s operated by only two switches, not three or more switches. This is important as we need to know what we are dealing with in order to guide you properly.

Sometimes, in older wiring (knob and tube) four way switches were used for 3 way (4th screw did not have a conductor).

Please do not remove any conductors/wires from any switches until all the conductors are marked and you have made a diagram of each switch and have taken clear pictures of each. It will only add to the issue if you remove anything too soon.


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## afjes_2016 (Nov 1, 2017)

nealtw said:


> K&T didn't use 3 wire and switches with 3 screws. Pretty sure.


I have seen in the field switches with 4 screws (4 ways) where one screw did not have a conductor when dealing with K&T for 3 way set ups (yuk hate this stuff).


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## rebelboiis221101 (Nov 1, 2017)

Let me re clarify here that I am dealing with two DIFFERENT lights both with two switches each on their own circuits. With that stated once again I've looked for a color it's just not there. These switches for sure do NOT have ground screws as no other outlet or single pole switch had one at the time of replacing them. The really old looking switches have 3 screws. They are all on the FRONT of the switch not the sides like newer ones. If I use a voltage tester on the switches in the gang downstairs. I get as follows. (Light means voltage) switch 1 ON: top right LIGHT bottom right LIGHT bottom left LIGHT but dimmer than other 2? OFF: top right nothing bottem right LIGHT bottom left dim agian. Switch 2 ON: can't seem to get a solid light altho it blinks for a moment OFF: top left nothing top right LIGHT Bottom right nothing. PLEASE let me repete switch 1 is one light and one circuit switch to is another different light and different circuit.


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## rebelboiis221101 (Nov 1, 2017)

Let me ask if I where to upload a YouTube video of me simply testing each wire for voltage in the "on/off" position would that be of any help?


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## Snoonyb (Nov 1, 2017)

nealtw said:


> K&T didn't use 3 wire and switches with 3 screws. Pretty sure.



That was before your time, not mine. screws have been on switches for a long time.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 1, 2017)

rebelboiis221101 said:


> Let me ask if I where to upload a YouTube video of me simply testing each wire for voltage in the "on/off" position would that be of any help?



Not necessarily, and unfortunately you are probably going to have to ring these conductors out.

1st you need to establish the hot pair.


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## rebelboiis221101 (Nov 1, 2017)

https://youtu.be/Rw5JyJZSd-U

Maybe this can help with determining something. Please ignore the babies as it's close to bed time and an ornre momma who's well ornre lol.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 1, 2017)

rebelboiis221101 said:


> Let me re clarify here that I am dealing with two DIFFERENT lights both with two switches each on their own circuits. With that stated once again I've looked for a color it's just not there. These switches for sure do NOT have ground screws as no other outlet or single pole switch had one at the time of replacing them. The really old looking switches have 3 screws. They are all on the FRONT of the switch not the sides like newer ones. If I use a voltage tester on the switches in the gang downstairs. I get as follows. (Light means voltage) switch 1 ON: top right LIGHT bottom right LIGHT bottom left LIGHT but dimmer than other 2? OFF: top right nothing bottem right LIGHT bottom left dim agian. Switch 2 ON: can't seem to get a solid light altho it blinks for a moment OFF: top left nothing top right LIGHT Bottom right nothing. PLEASE let me repete switch 1 is one light and one circuit switch to is another different light and different circuit.



As asked, how did you determine they were on separate circuits, because that would be odd?


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## rebelboiis221101 (Nov 1, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> As asked, how did you determine they were on separate circuits, because that would be odd?


Maybe I've used a wrong word there but it goes like this I have one light upstairs with two switches one at top of stairs and one at bottom. I have another light downstairs with two switches one at top and at bottom BOTH do not work as a three way should. Both have their own switches and their own light. 2 different lights with 4 switches in total. Is that what is being asked?
Both controlled individually


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## Snoonyb (Nov 1, 2017)

The switches with the screws facing you are the original, old style, and those with the screws on the side are modern switches.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 1, 2017)

rebelboiis221101 said:


> Maybe I've used a wrong word there but it goes like this I have one light upstairs with two switches one at top of stairs and one at bottom. I have another light downstairs with two switches one at top and at bottom BOTH do not work as a three way should. Both have their own switches and their own light. 2 different lights with 4 switches in total. Is that what is being asked?
> Both controlled individually



Actually your intent was to differentiate between switch legs, not circuits.

I still think you are going to have to ring the conductors out.


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## rebelboiis221101 (Nov 1, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> I still think you are going to have to ring the conductors out.



Not to sure what you mean. I'm very new to this.


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## JoeD (Nov 1, 2017)

Use an actual volts meter and voltage across the screws on the switch. On one pair you will get zero volts. Flip the switch and measure again. One of the two screws that measured zero will now measure zero to the other screw. The screw that measure zero in both cases is the common.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 1, 2017)

This would be better done in daylight.

1st, the tester you are using is a proximity tester, and you'll need a VOM (volt, ohm, meter) and it doesn't need to be expensive.

2nd, if you have fuses or breaker you'll need to shut the one off that controls the light switches you want to work on.

3rd, disassemble the 2 switches that control the stairway light. if you can remember where the wires go, or you can label them.

Turn the power back on and find which conductor/s have power, It should only be one.

With the power back off, twist the other 2 conductor form one of the switches together, and with the  VOM on an ohms scale attach the leades to the 2 conductors of the other switch, and if there is continuity the meter will deflect to "0".


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## rebelboiis221101 (Nov 2, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> This would be better done in daylight.
> 
> 1st, the tester you are using is a proximity tester, and you'll need a VOM (volt, ohm, meter) and it doesn't need to be expensive.
> 
> ...


It's done and done in the night [emoji50]. Its all working how it should and I ended up just going out and replacing all the switches and so if in the future I need to replace again I'll know by black screw lol. Thank you all for the advice but this one got me on the track to getting it working. So again thank you all! [emoji16][emoji3][emoji16]! Im sure we will meet again as I plan on taking on afew other projects in the future!


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## Snoonyb (Nov 2, 2017)

And the price was right.


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