# Joist in half wall



## Bmattig (Mar 4, 2015)

Hi! I am in the middle of renovating my staircase and found the the half wall separating the down and up staircase has the joist from the top floor running through it. Under the joist it has 2 2x4's. I wanted to cut the joist and the 2x4's and install spindles. My question is can I cut this joist?


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## nealtw (Mar 4, 2015)

Wecome to the site
I think yes, but I would like to see a few more pictures.
There is a posibility that you aren't the first person to change this wall so look for sags in the ceiling above this wall.


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## Bmattig (Mar 4, 2015)

Here are some more pictures. I'm planning on keeping the front part of the wall and turn it into a newel post. There are no markes on the ceiling that would show that this wall once went all the way up.


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## nealtw (Mar 4, 2015)

Then I think you will be fine to remove it . Hopefully the last stud is attached to the stairs to give it support to make a post out of it.


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## Bmattig (Mar 4, 2015)

Thanks for the help and suggestion


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## nealtw (Mar 4, 2015)

It will be an improvement.


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## Sparky617 (Mar 5, 2015)

Is that joist holding up floor joists on the other side?  It certainly looks like it comes out further than the wall perpendicular to it on the other side from the stairs.

My take on it is the joist is coming out to the steps because that is where the post is below to support the load.  What is at the top of the stairs to the left?  

I wouldn't recommend hacking away at the joist based on the pictures you've provided.


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## nealtw (Mar 5, 2015)

Sparky617 said:


> Is that joist holding up floor joists on the other side?  It certainly looks like it comes out further than the wall perpendicular to it on the other side from the stairs.
> 
> My take on it is the joist is coming out to the steps because that is where the post is below to support the load.  What is at the top of the stairs to the left?
> 
> I wouldn't recommend hacking away at the joist based on the pictures you've provided.



The other wall in the background is in line with the top riser in the picture to allow head room for the down staircase,


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## Sparky617 (Mar 5, 2015)

nealtw said:


> The other wall in the background is in line with the top riser in the picture to allow head room for the down staircase,



I assume that beam is holding up the floor for the landing above.  With just the one picture I can't tell what is going on inside the wall, but my bet is the post supporting the end of the beam goes down to the basement floor and is carrying the load of the floor joists for the landing at the top of the stairs.  I could be wrong, but I'd rather err on the side of caution than give the go ahead to tear it out based on one picture.   JMHO.


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## nealtw (Mar 5, 2015)

Bmattig said:


> Here are some more pictures. I'm planning on keeping the front part of the wall and turn it into a newel post. There are no markes on the ceiling that would show that this wall once went all the way up.



On the chance that Sparky has a point let's play the game some more.
Is the top floor we are looking at the top floor of the house?
Are the down stairs leading to the basement? Is there a closet below the stairs and landing and is it drywalled and finished?


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## nealtw (Mar 5, 2015)

Sparky617 said:


> I assume that beam is holding up the floor for the landing above.  With just the one picture I can't tell what is going on inside the wall, but my bet is the post supporting the end of the beam goes down to the basement floor and is carrying the load of the floor joists for the landing at the top of the stairs.  I could be wrong, but I'd rather err on the side of caution than give the go ahead to tear it out based on one picture.   JMHO.



You may have a point, but suggestions on what to look for would be helpfull.


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## Bmattig (Mar 5, 2015)

Here is a picture of the other side. I taped off with dark blue tape where the beam is and in light blue tape where I plan on cutting. Yes I'm keeping the front 2 2x4's because they are going down to the under stairs storage and are supporting the entry. So I would only cut 1 2x4 and a section of the beam at a 45 degree. Yes there is a closet under the stairs going up. It has drywall. I hope this helps.


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## nealtw (Mar 5, 2015)

I will try to explain the concern here. We do understand what you want to do.

Normally the walls on each side of the staircase are bearing walls, in this case  7 to 8 ft apart, the landing at the top of the stairs is  usually joists spanning from one side to the other with a double on the edge where the stairs are attached.. Often plans are drawn with the center wall as a bearing wall and the guy framing the lower floor, dosn't neccessarily look at the plans for the above floor so he builds the wall as it will be a bearing wall.
The question here is what if,,,   the plan called for a bearing point at the end of the wall you are looking at and for some reason they ran a beam out to the bearing point and then hung the joists for the landing off of that. 
So now the question becomes how much weight is on that beam for the landing and both staircases and as there are studs under the beam, what kind of support can they add to the equation.

What Sparky wants to know is, does that beam stop at the landing, is any part of the wall bearing any weight from above and what is it sitting on for support.

Is there attic space above the upper ceiling, do you have trusses or rafters?
Is there a closet below the stair case?


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## Sparky617 (Mar 5, 2015)

If there is a post supporting the beam back where it starts stepping in on your second picture you can probably cut it out because it isn't supporting anything above.  If however the post supporting the beam is out at the end of the wall, you'd need to replace it to carry the load of the floor joists for the landing at the top of your stairs.  I would probably cut drywall out in the ceiling of your lower stairs to see what's going on with that beam.  It probably wasn't installed because the guy framing the house had some extra lumber.  It was likely put there for a reason.  I can't tell from your photos.

My advice may be worth exactly what you paid me for it.  I'd need a lot better view than the photos you've provided to commit to anything, and I'd want to have someone look at it in person.  If you're going to act based on neal's and my advice based on a couple of photos, good luck.


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## nealtw (Mar 5, 2015)

Sparky617 said:


> My advice may be worth exactly what you paid me for it.  I'd need a lot better view than the photos you've provided to commit to anything, and I'd want to have someone look at it in person.  If you're going to act based on neal's and my advice based on a couple of photos, good luck.



Surely we can find out if the wall below is bearing or if the there is a bearing point below the post with out hiring an engineer.
With the studs visiable in the lower portion of the wall, the only question here, is  there a limited load bearing under the post. If not it is supported by the floor and the rest of the studs will do that job and if the whole wall is load bearing  then the rest of the studs will do the job,


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## nealtw (Mar 5, 2015)

BTW, just what drywall would you remove, to prove what.


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## Bmattig (Mar 5, 2015)

So I did some more investigations. The joist is supported by the wall that runs downstairs perpendicular under the top of the stair landing and rests on the wall parallel to that wall downstairs ( downstairs hallway about 3 1/2 feet wide) So the joist is resting on 2 walls which make up the hallway downstairs. If that makes any sense. I finished the downstairs last year and had no drywall on the ceiling so I remember the joist and their support. The joists other end ( the end of the half wall) is sitting on top of 2 2x4's that run about 4 feet down to the bottom plate ( that's the under stairs storage). Besides the 2 2x4's on the end of the half wall there are a total of 4 more 2x4's supporting the joist before it rests ontop of the 1st perpendicular wall downstairs. These 4 2x4's make up the tiny under the stairs closet that has drywall. The stair stringer is attached to does. The only thing I don't know is if the joist stops at the 1st wall (so runs from the end of the half wall to the top of the stair landing resting on the top of the wall downstairs) and a new joist starts to support the hallway upstairs which is about 4 1/2 feet wide. My husband is on military duty and this is my 4th house remodel while raising 2 kids. I called a structural engineer but he charges $500+ to take a look at it, which is not in my budget. Must be California :


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## nealtw (Mar 5, 2015)

Ok. I have been working the brain to figure out why they might put this here, we can't see the top of the joist. Is it a one peice beam or two joists nailed together or two with a space between?


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## Bmattig (Mar 6, 2015)

I'm not sure but I believe the joist is one piece the runs from the front of the half wall all the way to the center of the house and is supported by the two walls that make up the downstairs hallway.


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## Bmattig (Mar 6, 2015)

Here is a picture of the 2x4 that joist is sitting on at the end of the half wall. This is under the stairs storage. I added 2 more 2x4's left and right to support the joist under the entry.


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## Sparky617 (Mar 6, 2015)

Neal,
You're a contractor, I'm not.  I'm not saying he needs a structural engineer to determine if it can be removed, but based on the original pictures I sure can't tell why the beam goes out beyond the wall above.  I would speculate that it is supported by a post down to the basement floor at the end.  Knowing what is going on inside the wall is crucial in determining whether it can be removed or not. Or what restructuring is required to remove it.


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## nealtw (Mar 6, 2015)

Sparky617 said:


> Neal,
> You're a contractor, I'm not.  I'm not saying he needs a structural engineer to determine if it can be removed, but based on the original pictures I sure can't tell why the beam goes out beyond the wall above.  I would speculate that it is supported by a post down to the basement floor at the end.  Knowing what is going on inside the wall is crucial in determining whether it can be removed or not. Or what restructuring is required to remove it.



Fair enough but the engineer will cost $500 and when he come out he will say I need to see this and that so open that up and call me when I can see it. That extra call will be another $100.

No one here has suggested bringing in an engineer more than I have and I respect your concern and suggestion but that being said I would expect you to add like you just did, how much load is on it and will the remaining studs carry that load.


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## nealtw (Mar 6, 2015)

Bmattig said:


> Here is a picture of the 2x4 that joist is sitting on at the end of the half wall. This is under the stairs storage. I added 2 more 2x4's left and right to support the joist under the entry.



This is a picture from before you finished the basement, so I will test your memory.
Looking at this picture, it looks like the entry to storage is behind the beam and it looks like the beam is nailed to the stud behind it. Am I seeing it right?


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## Bmattig (Mar 6, 2015)

I really appreciate you guys helping me with this.
Here is another picture of the downstairs entry support structure. The horizontal beam that is attached to the 2x4 that goes all the way up in the half wall is not the same beam as the one in the half wall I want to cut. This beam is another support for the 2x4's that make up the front of the halfwall.


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## Bmattig (Mar 6, 2015)

I think maybe this beam is supporting the halfwall above it? I don't know


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## Sparky617 (Mar 6, 2015)

A wider shot may help.  I'd need to see the ends of the beam.


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## nealtw (Mar 6, 2015)

Yes I fugured that out after my last post.
You said you added two 2x4s for the door way, as they didn't reach the bottom of the beam, they add no strength.
So this beam and lower wall have the a landing at the top of the stairs and the (what might be a closet over the area to the left)
There is a beam that runs joist under the top of the upper stairs. Can you ste a marker on the the upper floor showing where that beam is and take photo?


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## nealtw (Mar 6, 2015)

I think Sparky and I just got lost around a corner somewhere


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## nealtw (Mar 6, 2015)

I have assumed we are on a landing in the first pictures, is this a splitlevel house and are we on the center level floor?


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## Bmattig (Mar 6, 2015)

Correct. It's a split level. When you come into the front door you step on the support structure from the last few pictures. This is the entry way it's 4 ft above ground. The entry way is center level and the half wall is on that level. To the left is the set of stairs going down and right side goes up. So that beam from the last pictures is directly under the halfwall and attached to the 2x4 that runs from the top of the half wall down to the gound.


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## Sparky617 (Mar 7, 2015)

Bmattig said:


> I think maybe this beam is supporting the halfwall above it? I don't know



The new 2x4's do not appear to be supporting the beam since they aren't attached to it. Did you install those, they are clearly newer than the others in the picture.  Not sure what they are doing, possibly nailers for drywall, but they certainly aren't structural.

In order to remove the end of the beam, since it doesn't appear to be supporting anything above it beyond the wall, I'd install a post down to the basement slab right at the point you want to cut it off.  That would transfer the load down to the floor.  The only question I'd have with that strategy is will the slab support the load since there probably isn't a footer there.  It is probably just a 4" thick slab.


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## nealtw (Mar 7, 2015)

Okay.4 foot crawlspace where you have access to the bottom portion of that wall that faces the crawl space. I want to see the bottom of the end post and the concrete under the wall (FLOOR)


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## nealtw (Mar 8, 2015)

Just so you know my thinking. As this is a dividing line between the crawlspace and the basement, I am hoping there is a foundation wall (concrete). My fear is that they just did a peir support to carry this beam and all the weight above it.


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## Bmattig (Mar 8, 2015)

i actually went ahead and remove the drywall from the from part of the half wall and discovered that this beam is only sitting on one 2x4 that goes down to the crawl space and sits on a footing


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## Bmattig (Mar 8, 2015)

Here is the end of the half wall


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## nealtw (Mar 8, 2015)

Your last photo tells the story, if this was an important beam it would have had two or three studs under the end. So this is just a normall wall and as such I would cut it off and add one stud under the cut end when your done.


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## Bmattig (Mar 9, 2015)

I guess I should have removed ALL of the drywall to begin with. My bad! Thanks guys for looking at the pictures and helping me solve this beam puzzle.


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