# DIY roofer?



## bryce (Jun 26, 2014)

I've got a problem with rot in the roof, i can smell it some times when it is hot.
What happen was they put a new metal roof over the old shingles and never removed them or fixed the rotten roof boards.
Can i do this with scaffolding? 10' scaffolding is 400lbs
I guess one person can set this up? Then i would have to take it down and move it or roll at least at the back of the house. 
Would  it be safe enough? Looks slippery this metal roof. It is steep too.
I guess the pro roofer would use ladders and jump around like monkeys up there? Probably need to replace 10 of the roof boards.


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## Wuzzat? (Jun 26, 2014)

First check how much your existing, good, roof boards deflect at the span center from the roofing load they now hold up.  Use a straightedge or string and average a few readings.

If you can stand >180F replace the boards piecemeal from underneath by removing wood and sistering the patch board section with the support board, a 2x2 or a 2x4 on edge.  The patch board and the 2x4 should have a tee cross-section.  
Take care your fasteners do not penetrate the metal roofing.  
If you get the same deflections then your patches are strong enough.

You may want to rent a portable AC with a long duct.


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## oldognewtrick (Jun 26, 2014)

Wuzzat? said:


> If you can stand >180F *replace the boards piecemeal from underneath by removing wood and sistering the patch board section with the support board,* a 2x2 or a 2x4 on edge.  The patch board and the 2x4 should have a tee cross-section.
> Take care your fasteners do not penetrate the metal roofing.
> If you get the same deflections then your patches are strong enough.QUOTE]
> 
> You are kidding aren't you, have you ever done a repair like this?


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## Wuzzat? (Jun 26, 2014)

oldognewtrick said:


> Wuzzat? said:
> 
> 
> > If you can stand >180F *replace the boards piecemeal from underneath by removing wood and sistering the patch board section with the support board,* a 2x2 or a 2x4 on edge.  The patch board and the 2x4 should have a tee cross-section.
> ...


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## oldognewtrick (Jun 27, 2014)

Wuzzat, you have obviously little or no experience in roofing and roof structure experience. Rafters and decking get their strength by spanning over multiple distance. Piecing in from the bottom will compromise the integrity of the structure itself. 

The OP has more than one issue besides decking. The metal roof was installed over existing shingles and bad wood. When you roof over an existing surface you accept the condition of the roof deck, as there is no way to correct issues without a complete tear off. Installing metal roofing (OP actually have agricultural panels) over the shingles will continue to have decay of the shingles. They will cause the panels to fracture the lap seam as they continue to deteriorate from heat, even if installed on batten strips. Exposed fasteners will fail at the rubber grommet and need to be replaced. Metal expands over an inch in a 100' run, this expansion of the metal will cause the screw holes to elongate and bigger screws will need to be installed eventually.

The proper cure is remove the metal, remove the old layers of shingles, fix any decking issues and then install a proper roof system. There is no short cut that will be a value for this problem. What we are seeing is the result of someone taking previous shortcuts and compounding problems by improper techniques. They didn't even put the fasteners in the proper locations. The install specks on that product is the screws should be put on the flat of the pan to provide a flat surface for the grommet to seal to. If the panel is installed with nails, they are to be put in the ribs.


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## Wuzzat? (Jun 27, 2014)

oldognewtrick said:


> Wuzzat, you have obviously little or no experience in roofing and roof structure experience. Rafters and decking get their strength by spanning over multiple distance. Piecing in from the bottom will compromise the integrity of the structure itself.
> 
> The OP has more than one issue besides decking. The metal roof was installed over existing shingles and bad wood. When you roof over an existing surface you accept the condition of the roof deck, as there is no way to correct issues without a complete tear off. Installing metal roofing (OP actually have agricultural panels) over the shingles will continue to have decay of the shingles. They will cause the panels to fracture the lap seam as they continue to deteriorate from heat, even if installed on batten strips. Exposed fasteners will fail at the rubber grommet and need to be replaced. Metal expands over an inch in a 100' run, this expansion of the metal will cause the screw holes to elongate and bigger screws will need to be installed eventually.
> 
> The proper cure is remove the metal, remove the old layers of shingles, fix any decking issues and then install a proper roof system. There is no short cut that will be a value for this problem. What we are seeing is the result of someone taking previous shortcuts and compounding problems by improper techniques. They didn't even put the fasteners in the proper locations. The install specks on that product is the screws should be put on the flat of the pan to provide a flat surface for the grommet to seal to. If the panel is installed with nails, they are to be put in the ribs.


I'll go with that.   The OP may, also.


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## oldognewtrick (Jun 27, 2014)

http://docserver.nrca.net/technical/8135.pdf

Something to consider when getting a metal roof.


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## Wuzzat? (Jun 27, 2014)

bryce said:


> 10 of the roof boards.


What percent of the total roof board area is rotten?


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## nealtw (Jun 27, 2014)

Wuzzat? said:


> What percent of the total roof board area is rotten?



He can use his X-ray eyes for this.
Heat will dammage the roofing under the metal the rot will be caused by moisture getting into the system from the house without enough ventulation.
With a proper vapour barrier you would not be able to smell anything going on above the ceiling.


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## Wuzzat? (Jun 27, 2014)

nealtw said:


> He can use his X-ray eyes for this.
> Heat will dammage the roofing under the metal the rot will be caused by moisture getting into the system from the house without enough ventulation.
> With a proper vapour barrier you would not be able to smell anything going on above the ceiling.



"comply with the wishes of (someone) in order to keep them content, however unreasonable such wishes might be."


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## nealtw (Jun 27, 2014)

Wuzzat? said:


> "comply with the wishes of (someone) in order to keep them content, however unreasonable such wishes might be."



My wish is for good usable information that a questioner or reader can put to good use in their decision making on how best to proceed.


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## bryce (Jul 1, 2014)

Yes this project is coming up in a week or so.

What you seem to be saying is i should put shingles on instead?

I assume the roof is strong enough because there is a lot of snow and ice at times.

I found a guy for $35 a hour, he thinks 2-3 days. He doesn't care about the summer heat.

I do know the inside condition because i worked from the inside. It is about 10% of the planks, around gutters, around the vents and chimney.

They look black the old planks. I think it will be a lot better when the shingles are removed.

I was planning to put typar under there, then put the old roofing back on then paint with solar elastic paint.






I was really asking would the scaffolding make it safe or not? This guy will just jump up there like monkey and i can hand up stuff.

Metal roof is good here because the snow just slides off and no ice dams.


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## bud16415 (Jul 1, 2014)

So your plan is to start with removing all the screws from the whole house and then the roofing. Then remove shingles down to the decking and then remove and replace 10% of the planking that&#8217;s bad. Cover the roof then with some rolled product replace the metal roofing and then paint it with the Henry product. 

Sounds like an ambitious project. If you tell us the square footage of the roofing to be done I think some of the roof experts will be able to advise if one man and a helper can do that in 3 days. 

Some of my thoughts are do you have a source for planking in the correct thickness? Will you damage the roofing getting it free and back on? Is the henry coating the right stuff for this application? Should you be adding nailers to make an air gap between the old roof and the metal roofing?


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## bryce (Jul 1, 2014)

Hi Bud, it's about 1000 sq.  Same guy just excavate the half the side of the house for me in 5 hours, he's a german machine. He said 4 days, but i think if i help him if could be less.
I imagine the panel come of easily by unscrewing them. I was planning to replace the screws, new rubber. I'm not sure what olddog was saying about screwing them in the flat, wouldn't they leak?
As for the planking, i've got a bunch of 3/4" plywood, the good Colombia stuff. There are few dips in the roof but the roof beams seem fine. We can just shim them up.
What is happen now in some places is the metal roofing is shrinking up because of the bend, cause the over hand to shrink causing water to slip behind the gutters...

The roofing should be easy to get back on since we know how it looks already and it already formed. The paint should fix any perfections.

The other things is the metal roof seems to have a natural ridge vent on top, but there are shingles underneath blocking it. Also with valleys there should be plenty of air flow.

I would probably take 2 weeks to do it. I wonder how you get up the slipper panels? suction cups? Perhaps just try. With regular roofing job you put some brace onto a roof beam through a shingle, but how can i do that for this job?


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## oldognewtrick (Jul 1, 2014)

bud16415 said:


> Should you be adding nailers to make an air gap between the old roof and the metal roofing?



NO, you do not want metal installed over an air gap. Condensation will occur in the air space. I'm anxious to see how this turns out....


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## bud16415 (Jul 1, 2014)

I haven't done one but around here about 1/3 of the roof jobs in the country are going with this ag metal roofing. A good deal of that is done by the Amish. They all space the metal up with 2X4 laid flat going across the roof on 2' centers. Watching them it's almost like they do it for climbing and standing but they say air flow. They mostly go over shingles. Some of the others skip the strips and go straight to the roof. I'm told steel over shingles is not good unless you leave the space as it wears and rusts fast on shingles   Some remove shingles do tar paper and then tin. And mostly when they have bad wood to fix in the process. Like I said I have no clue having never done one just what I'm seeing. I have been looking into it as I have a garage slight with slight pitch that has rolled roofing that's shot.

As to screw placement around here they used to put on the peaks now they go on flats.

I'm sticking with shingles. Pass the popcorn 


Sent from my iPhone using Home Repair


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## oldognewtrick (Jul 1, 2014)

I see a lot of things done a lot of ways, if you follow the MFGs installation spec's and things go wrong, you have someone to fall back on.


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## bud16415 (Jul 1, 2014)

That could be the reason it's always the Amish. Never thought of that. Pretty sure they don't read specs. 

Is there even specs on using ag pole barn roofing on heated homes.

My biggest problem with them is how they handle flashing mostly and then the venting at the top. The way they go around a chimney compared to step flashing looks like leaks waiting to happen. The simpler the roof line the better they look to me. 

Is there a spec on doing this per manufacture?

Around here the fire departments don't like them at all. They won't go on one and say they can't get water in to a fire. 


Sent from my iPhone using Home Repair


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## nealtw (Jul 2, 2014)

Rent a roof ladder, lays on the roof and hooks over the peak.


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## JonW (Jul 2, 2014)

I have done many metal roofs and living in Ca it is hot...I try to do them in early morning at sunrise and later in evening till dark to keep from the heat on the roof. However sometimes it is in possible and then I try to schedule as many as possible so the job gets done fast...

The smell could be from many different things....dead animal caught in rafter and could not get out....depends on the wood some will stink terrible when rotted...and if the wood is really old could of had a coating of chemical back in the early days to help preserve the wood...hard to tell unless you are there and see what is going on...


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## bryce (Jul 3, 2014)

Would a 32" ladder and stabilizer be okay for one person. Do i need to stabilize the feet if it lays down on the roof?
Or should i use the scaffolding as well and put the ladder up from there?


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## nealtw (Jul 3, 2014)

Use a ladder the length of the roof that hooks over the peak and use another ladder like the pic you posted to get up there.  Make sure you have it on solid ground and level and find some way to tie the top to something on your first trip up, so it can't slide sideways. Good ladders have the lean angle posted on them.


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## bryce (Jul 5, 2014)

Unfortunately they don't have that tool for rent or for sale. What about the scaffold, would it tip over? The tool rental guy say use a harness but i don't see how to attach it.
I might as well get the guy for $35. a hour, seems a bit high though better than breaking a vertebrae.
What about adding 1"-2" of polystyrene under the metal roof? Screws only come in 1-1/2"
That trim would have to be adjusted. I think i only have R35 on the slope now. So would it pay off the heating bill?


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## mako1 (Jul 6, 2014)

You can get longer screws.I use them all of the time to stitch the seams.You may have a hard time getting the seams apart.They should be sealed with butyl tape.


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## mako1 (Jul 6, 2014)

You can get longer screws.I use them all of the time to stitch the seams.You may have a hard time getting the seams apart.They should be sealed with butyl tape.


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## bryce (Jul 11, 2014)

Well it's going to be sealed with elastic paint.

I'm thinking to use 1" foam with the foil on back and plastic on the front. 

Would i put the foil side up? With this eliminate the heat problem? I would rather paint the roof red or green instead of white,


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## oldognewtrick (Jul 11, 2014)

A 1"  foam board is going to do very little for "R" value, and if you are going to coat the roof with elastomeric, why not just have the coating tinted?


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## bryce (Jul 11, 2014)

Apparently the problem is that the metal gets too hot and damages the wood roof structure with too much heat and humidity. So that is why white, maximum reflection.  But with the foam it would not matter because the foam would stop the heat. So yes tint the paint would be much nicer. I'm thinking red wouldn't be much hot than brown now.
I'm not so sure another 1-2" of foam is worth my pocket book.   Not sure if R values work that way, 1" of foam is surely much better than no foam. But will be 2" be twice as nice? It's another $320.


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## Wuzzat? (Jul 11, 2014)

nealtw said:


> Good ladders have the lean angle posted on them.


Which IIRC is the same for all ladders, it's something to do with vectors.


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## nealtw (Jul 11, 2014)

yup a guy should know that, I just pull it out untill it looks right. oops.


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## bryce (Jul 12, 2014)

I'm starting to think i might have to take all the old decking wood off.  Isn't simpler to do it that way?  I think this is old barn wood that was never kiln dried. That sound about right?

I take it foam sheet could not be installed under shingles? So another benefit of a steal roof.

Found some 3' shingle nails but not 3" screws, I guess nails might be easier but a little tricky no to over hammer.


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## nealtw (Jul 20, 2014)

bryce said:


> Apparently the problem is that the metal gets too hot and damages the wood roof structure with too much heat and humidity. So that is why white, maximum reflection.  But with the foam it would not matter because the foam would stop the heat. So yes tint the paint would be much nicer. I'm thinking red wouldn't be much hot than brown now.
> I'm not so sure another 1-2" of foam is worth my pocket book.   Not sure if R values work that way, 1" of foam is surely much better than no foam. But will be 2" be twice as nice? It's another $320.



Metal gets hot and the heat damages the old roofing below. moisture from in the house and lack of venting rots the wood.


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## nealtw (Jul 20, 2014)

http://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0000224MR/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## Wuzzat? (Jul 21, 2014)

And
http://www.google.com/search?q=Ladd...%2Fbats%2Fdoityourselfbatremoval.html;400;238


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## bryce (Jul 25, 2014)

Hook ladders are illegal here. I can see why too, ladders are not designer for that kind of torque.(seems to be illegal the USA too...
http://www.trapperman.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3117379/2 

12' Scaffolding and 32' fiber ladder should be safe as christmas. The ladder can intersect with the scaffolding and lay on the roof.

1" duro foam, foil up, over the decking should solve a lot of problems, yes/no?:

- heat problem of the metal damaging the decking
- expansion problem, when the metal expanse the foam will take it 
- leak problem, reusing the panels might be leaky
- r value problem, improves insulation value
-  flatten out any dips or imperfections

Seems a lot of people like metal roofs. I don't see why i should spend $1000's for a new roof or new shingles when i can paint this one over, add some insulation and it is all the better.
On the other hand a lot of people don't like metal roofs and will see the exposed ridge fasteners and run away...:hide:

Do i need to cover the foam sheet with osb sheet or can the roofing sit right on the foil back? Melt?


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