# Warped floor joists, floor leveling



## Jungle

Look at this joist is warped, starts at 17.5" then to 14" with the small blocks to 17" at the end to the wall. Weird? It could haven't been originally built like that, so it must of warped, sloped the floor then they decided to fix it by installing the cross blocks?
 I'm jacking up the floor now, i bought 4 screw jacks today and need about 6-10 more. I have to support most of the floor joist it seems.

Should i take out the old cross block and jam in new 15+" 2x6" in there and try to unwarp the beam? Maybe i should do this before i start jacking it up?


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## nealtw

Yes it was likely built like that. The angled bridging is nailed from above and then the subfloor is nailed down. It is up to that guy to straight the joists as he goes and then the bridging is nailed from below. You don't see much of this in newer houses because the joists have to be kept straight to have the plywood fit. The shiplap was very forgiving for the inexperienced carpenter.
If you are planning to leave these post in place, it would be far cheaper to just build a wall to the right height.
I would have like to see a 2x4 or 2x6 running under the joists above the posts, if everything isn't kept level or plumb there is a chance that a joist could fail with any angled load which would have a post coming out sideways in a hurry.


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## CallMeVilla

Believe it or not, in my starting out days, I encountered twisted joists due to water damage from a bathtub which had repeatedly overflowed.  After demolishing the floor above the joists, I took a brute force approach  ...

I had 1/4" steel plates fabricated the height of the joists with pre-punched holes.  I drilled through the joists and sandwiched the joist with 1/2" through bolts and washers.  By ratcheting the bolts, I squeezed the joists back into true and enormously strengthened the floor system.  Then it was easy to reinstall the floor and the redesigned bathroom.

Did it all with cheap re-conditioned power tools I bought at a Sears Outlet store.  Those were the days.


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## Jungle

"If you are planning to leave these post in place, it would be far cheaper to just build a wall to the right height."

I still have to jack up the floors. The floors slants inward to the main support beam caused by excessive weight of above walls + years of high humidity. Building a wall would only support it and still require jacking in the future. It might be cheaper but not in labour hours @ $52 a jack post it only take 10 minutes to install and last forever.
Jack posts are also required by inspectors, a wall would look suspicious.

"I would have like to see a 2x4 or 2x6 running under the joists above the posts,"

Each Joist needs to be raise differently, i don't think i can just raise them all the same.

I check above the floor where the joist warping is and sure enough it is about 1/4" depressed. Still wondering if i should try to unwrap it or not? Or use some floor leveler?

 As the floor jacks up it will become less noticeable.
 I have to buy another 5 jack posts today. I am really pissed off i didn't do this in the first place.


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## nealtw

Do not remove the cross braces they are holding the joists perpindicular. The nails in the subfloor would have to be pulled in order to straighten the joists sideways and that has nothing to do with the sag.
Are you intending to leave these posts in place when you are done or are you going to look for as way to keep the joist up with out the posts?


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## bud16415

What you are showing is a telescoping Lally column support. It is not a house jack and isn&#8217;t intended to be one. Building code varies but I believe the telescoping ones are intended for temporary support and at very least have to have a footing below them and should be imbedded into the footing and the beam above to keep them from kicking out. 

Your floor sheathing is nailed into the joists and would have to be removed if you want to straighten anything out. 

I would be very careful about trying to correct too much too fast. 

If the problem is a low area in the floor but the floor is stable and you don&#8217;t feel a bounce I personally would level it above. If it has bounce or you have reason to believe it is getting worse then you should do something to stabilize it and or lift it. Putting a dozen Lally columns under the room is not my first choice.


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## Jungle

"Are you intending to leave these posts in place when you are done or are you going to look for as way to keep the joist up with out the posts?"   	

As Bud says you are suppose to have proper footers cut into the concrete flooring etc. But these metal post jack are perfectly fine, it even says on the box can be used for permanent foundations. Wood posts would be a red flag for an inspector.

When i'm finishing raising them i will attach some blocking to the side of joist and screw it right to the top, so at least i won't coming flying out at someone.

The problem is yes the above floor is a supporting wall and other structural points are sinking and the floor is slanted as well as the beams on the ceiling are slanting down as the wall is sinking... So these support are required.

I wonder if i should try to jack up the main support beams as well, the beam looks straight but the support look to be slightly bent probably from too much pressure coming from the left...?
You can see all those joists on the left are sagging need jacks. The bathroom walls and staircase are 3' to either side of the main support beam.


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## nealtw

Let's get some language straight.
A barring wall in the basement will have a footing, ( a footing for a wall will be something like concrete 8" deep and 16" wide running the length of the wall)
The barring posts that is showing in your photo will have a footing, something like 10" deep and 24" sq under the floor so you can't see it.
Most basement floors are 3" to 3 1/2" thick and will not support a great deal of weight before it breaks thru.
There may be walls above this sag but they should not be barring walls, but they may be and that should be figured out.

"IF" you are lifting a great deal of weight the proper way to do this would be to cut a hole in the floor at each end of the sag put a beam under the joists and jack it up and then set it on post between the beam and the footing.
"IF" you are just raising the floor without any extraordinary weight above you can just build a wall to support the floor off the foor.

"IF all your joists are the same height like 8" or what ever you could nail a 2x4 the bottom of them and when everything is jacked up and level the 2x4 will be straight.
I think a row of posts would be more of a red flag that a wall built with a bottom plate and two top plates, and actually I would use 2x6 to help spread the load on the floor.


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## Jungle

"In housing, load-bearing walls are most common in the light construction method known as "platform framing", and each load-bearing wall sits on a wall sill plate which is mated to the lowest base plate. The sills are bolted to the masonry or concrete foundation."

Someone told me that the basement was made with a lot of concrete and would be a major job to cut through the concrete, so think the jack posts are a reasonable solutions. The more posts the less load on each posts. If you think the concrete will crack maybe i should but a large metal plate as a base?

I guess this footing won't work would it?





 Each beam is different shapes and width, i don't think it is a good idea to lift them all at the same time.
There is about 2" of sagging, i can try slowly slowly.

Keep in mind, the wet basement is now solved which is the cause of the sagging, the house has stood up this long. 

Once it's jack up a bit i can sister another beam on there and few more blocks will make it plenty strong.


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## GBR

No, those deck pier blocks won't work. You need a footing of proper size to carry the load from above. (eg. footing sizes; http://www.awc.org/Publications/DCA/DCA6/DCA6-09.pdf) Structural Engineers are enlisted to supply this for the *liability involved*, because of the bearing wall offset from bearing below past maximum distance of Code (depth of joist); http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_5_sec002_par020.htmAnd a lateral tie across the joists at jacking area to keep them in check, as Neil said. 

May want to add "old work" joist hangers to all joists as no ledger is present to even pass minimum code; http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_5_sec002_par024.htm

Add solid blocking to prevent rotation over the new wall/footing; http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_5_sec002_par025.htm Need a larger steel plate under built-up beam (3 joists) to spread load to post cap.

They are all different depth/width because of being milled before "standard" sizes were established. We can only give you our many years of experience in building trades (39 for me) and safety concerns, up to you - what to follow or not. Build safely.

Gary
PS. The adjustable may pass inspection here---- if welded closed (and dipped/painted against rust--non-movable); check locally.


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## Jungle

Ya it's working already, with a couple of twists i've taken out the nasty dips in the floor. I will puts some bricks around the base and secure the top when it's levelled.  Keep in mind it's a new construction just a retrofit.


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## nealtw

http://www.houserepairtalk.com/f17/preparing-footing-surface-steel-column-12468/


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## Jungle

The basement flooring here is much better than the guys crawl space i think about 12" thick of concrete. The wood beams will remember and get straight again then i can sister it up, so not so much weight in the end.  

What's you solution Neil? Build a concrete wall under the beams when it is jacked up? I guess i'll do that if the floor cracks, but i don't think it will, you can see the support already bent and the concrete floor didn't crack. Sounds like lots of work too.


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## nealtw

If you are just straightening the floor you should be fine even with a normal floor which would be 3 1/2 inches thick. If your floor is that thick you don't have to worry about anything. I am worried about a post kicking out sideways and killing some one. I thought you said you were lifting a barring wall above.


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## Jungle

Here you can see the foot of the staircase/ where the book is bellow the joist crack last year and i already sistered it and jacked it with a 2x6. Now is replace with the steel jacks. So a lot of pressure on that point as you can see what is above. same with the other side.


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## Jungle

Here's the bearing wall, that has not sunk and that side of the flooring is actually flat! As i mention before that 1" oak pillar is suspicious. i think i should put another jack under it?


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## nealtw

I am having trouble figuring out what is above what. With out knowing how the floor joist were run for the attic space and how that is supported.
I might have it mixed up. It looks like you have lifted the post that goes right to the roof? That woud be the one carrying the most weight.
In new construction, there would have been a post al the way down to a footing below the floor, the same would be true for the two posts on the outer end of the landing.
Both walls that run beside the staircase going up from the landing either should have bearing walls or beams in the basement or some extensive framing in the attic floor but there would be aleast a post in the basement below the corner to your left as you go up stairs from the landing.
This all guess work and isn't worth much, I really think you should get an engineer to look things over and give you a plan.


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## nealtw

Who did you buy your house from?
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/f108/finishing-any-ideas-14903/ 
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/f32/structure-support-14863/


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## Jungle

I'm under the impression that cord wood houses have better structure because they are 'free standing.'
Glad here aren't earth quakes here like in BC.


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## bud16415

You have quite an interesting house there. I never heard of a cordwood house before and I had to google it to find out what it was. So your house is made of chunks of cut wood like firewood and stacked and mortared together. I&#8217;m not sure where the &#8220;free standing&#8221; part comes in? 

I&#8217;m with Neal it&#8217;s really hard to figure out what is above and below what from the photos. I&#8217;m sure it&#8217;s quite clear to you as you are involved in the project but for others trying to help from the pictures it&#8217;s easy to get confused. 

Just curious in most of the basement photos there is white paint on the structure here and there, is the paint highlighting problem areas or what is it about? 

In a cordwood house and your first two photos show a foundation wall. I&#8217;m assuming all the wood pieces are built up starting at the top of the foundation. Where do the beams and joists sit? Is it built like a brick house where the brick sits on the outer half of the foundation and the inner half is for the wood structure? So the cordwood is just a facing. Do you have stud walls supporting the second floor or does the cordwood hold up the second floor?


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## Jungle

Hi Bud, ya i thought someone would ask about the paint. You know it is good idea to paint all wood to seal protect it with primer. This stuff in the basement needs it, suffering from high humidity due to water coming into the basement for years, that's why it warped the beams, there was dust all over the place too and painting over it is easier than cleaning and better. When the wood turns grey it is sort of rotting so better to paint it. I did a bit of slop up job true enough, i want to put insulation in there later anyways.

The cord wood house is 9" piece of dried wood cord with held together with concrete or lime, 'stacked' also known as stacked house. A lot of concrete actually about 50% of the wall is concrete, so not much different than brick perhaps better. The stacks are separate with studs, so the stacks stand up by themselves until the big bad wolf comes along.
If you look at the outside of the house the roof and structure look perfectly straight. He built the other houses around me too and are still standing. I don't think much has change since the original structure, but i don't really know for sure. The house feels solid enough. I got it way cheap as it should be for all the work to make it liveable again. The previous owner had a bit of mental defect inheritance if from his father the original builder, 30 years ago and get run down with minor water damage etc.


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## bud16415

Interesting history of your home. 

Do you have to treat the outside of the house? (end grain of the wood)I think if I was going to make one I would use locust wood around here. All the grape farmers use locust posts and they last a very long time in direct contact with soil. 

I don&#8217;t know what building code would say about it if you were intending the cord wood to support weight. Looks like most of them are post and beam and the wood is just filler.


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## Jungle

"Do you have to treat the outside of the house?" It's covered with vinyl siding. It was a cheap way to make a house back then, it doesn't look so pretty unless it's finished an taken care of. Many of pieces seemed to be burned they used in my house, maybe a fast way to dry it out. 

Yesterday i installed the kitchen vent which involved hammering out a old piece of cord wood, lucky they are mostly small pieces, i was able to knock one out. I still needed to chisel off some more for the 6" opening of the vent. I am always amazed that old wood can still smell so fresh when you it cut open. From the kitchen wall to the outside was 13" i think a nice and solid feel for a house.


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## GBR

Most hood vents are 7", may want to check on yours...

Sounds as if the builder/previous owner didn't have any inspections by city/county for minimum code work done; stair/landing handrails/guardrails, exposed ceiling joists without paneling/drywall, over-spanned joists, gaps in wall finishes to insulation cavities, etc. You have much work in front of you...I do not envy you.

Gary


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## Jungle

"stair/landing handrails/guardrails"
I will get to the one. I don't think such a big job to put the railing on the left. It's not really a 2nd floor more a loft.

"exposed ceiling joists without paneling/drywall,"  It does have panelling over it. I think ceiling beams are a common and desirable feature. I didn't think it would be against code, keep in mind the metal is fireproof.

"over-spanned joists, " That's just how they built housing the 40's, seems to have lasted this long. 
Sistering up the beams in the basement should not be too much of big job. The jacks have already done there job. Hopefully another  month and mostly be done.


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## Jungle

Strange thing here is the metal post is slanted, but the post base is over about 2" from where it should be, right underneath the main support like the other metal posts. So it is like they made a mistake when they laid the posts and then had to bend it over??  The result is bit of a sag in the main support beam and floor above. 

I already jacked up the joists so they are lifting up 1/16" and so cracks are starting in the dry wall upstairs. Upstairs has already finished with the sags plum, so i had better not lift it up any more? But it is tempting.


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