# Healthcare costs.



## Chris

I just need to vent.

I added my second daughter to my health plan when she was born a couple months ago. I have my own insurance since I own my company. It went up by 140 a month for the second newborn. I just got the bill and they won't pay for any of the existing care or future care for her until I am three months paid in advance. They won't let me pay monthly since I am policy holder but I have to pay three months in advance. So every three months they want over 2500 bucks. How is this not robbery?

I just don't get it! I know I have been against O'care from day one but it was supposedly designed to make things more affordable yet my policy has more than tripled in cost since it came into affect..

Tonight I did some shopping around to see if O'care could help me if I went that route. Went to the stupid marketplace and low and behold the price is 100% based on your income. I put in what I make and my yearly costs would have been over 12k with O'care. I put in that I made closer to the minimum wage and my care would have been about a grand a year. Please someone tell me how or why since I make more than someone else that my care should cost me more? To me this whole thing is Bull****! where have we come to that I pay more for heath insurance than anything else in life.

Sorry for the rant but I think we are falling off a cliff here.


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## slownsteady

I've been paying for my own healthcare for years, and it was expensive then and it is now. The ACA (Obamacare) helped a little this year because my income was down. But it's the insurance companies that are doing the damage by soaking us for every penny they can make.


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## nealtw

We have a single payer, Gov. Ambulances and most hospitals are own buy the same Gov.. They give the hospitals a budget and negotiates with the doctors on flat rate charges for prceedures.
But our basic coverage dosn't cover drugs for home use, we need private insurance for that.
You still have Doctors, hospitals, and everyone else, greedy.


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## frodo

Chris said:


> I just need to vent.
> 
> I added my second daughter to my health plan when she was born a couple months ago. I have my own insurance since I own my company. It went up by 140 a month for the second newborn. I just got the bill and they won't pay for any of the existing care or future care for her until I am three months paid in advance. They won't let me pay monthly since I am policy holder but I have to pay three months in advance. So every three months they want over 2500 bucks. How is this not robbery?
> 
> I just don't get it! I know I have been against O'care from day one but it was supposedly designed to make things more affordable yet my policy has more than tripled in cost since it came into affect..
> 
> Tonight I did some shopping around to see if O'care could help me if I went that route. Went to the stupid marketplace and low and behold the price is 100% based on your income. I put in what I make and my yearly costs would have been over 12k with O'care. I put in that I made closer to the minimum wage and my care would have been about a grand a year. Please someone tell me how or why since I make more than someone else that my care should cost me more? To me this whole thing is Bull****! where have we come to that I pay more for heath insurance than anything else in life.
> 
> Sorry for the rant but I think we are falling off a cliff here.





wealth redistribution

the more you make the more you will pay Obummernocare so it will offset the "free" health care the unemployed get.

do like I do,  I email a letter each week to my congressmen,  telling them to repeal this crap.


:rofl: redistribution of wealth,   i'm a little short this month,  would you mind                                                                                        w                                              ..working a little harder?
                                               ..I have some bills to pay.


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## beachguy005

Just as an aside...it's reported that about 400,000 people die each year from medical mistakes.  With the ACA goal of adding 10 to 20 million new patients, the Democrats Obamacare will kill more people than guns have in the last 10 years plus.  Now that's ironic.


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## Chris

I agree the insurance companies are a big part but they are working right along with the government. 

I have a good friend that used to work for me but kept coming to work drunk so I let him go. He is getting unemployment off of my company and working full time making 30 an hour under the table. He has an issue with his wrist for getting drunk and hitting the floor so he went to get insurance. I had my guy quote it for him at 240 a month so he went to Obamacare and gave them what he made on unemployment and he signed up paying 23 a month for a plan better than mine. This bothers me because I know more than a handful of people doing this. I know business owners that are changing how they pay themselves to get cheap care. 

I don't mind paying my way in life but when identical things cost different costs because of ones income is where I have to draw the line.


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## zannej

I read an article that the commissioner of insurance tried to get the laws changed on how much insurance companies can charge for premiums. He wanted to include how much money the companies have stored up in banks in reserve as part of their assets when evaluating whether or not a rate increase is justified. Right now they are NOT allowed to take the stored money into account, which allows the insurance companies to jack up their rates the bilk the crap out of people.

It's just pure greed. If its any consolation, because I'm an unpaid caretaker for my mother (my state does not pay people to be caretakers for family members) and basically have no income, I don't even qualify for Obamacare, and the healthcare prices are absolutely insane. The insurance companies were being greedy even before Obamacare though. Before Obama was even in office the health insurance I had tripled my premiums, doubled my deductible, and cut my lifetime payout to less than I had already paid in over the years-- and I had not needed to go to the doctor for a few years so its not like they were constantly having to pay stuff for me. I had to drop it.

I think a key element was missed when they were trying to come up with a plan for "affordable" healthcare: The prices charged by hospitals and doctors. I've read numerous articles about how arbitrary and insane some of the prices are. They did a study where they looked at the prices for things from multiple hospitals and they found a $100k difference in the price of the same exact treatment using the same type of equipment from too hospitals that were only a few miles apart. It's one thing if its a difference of a few dollars or even a few hundred dollars, but that is just ridiculous. They charge thousands of dollars for procedures that should cost less than $100.

They need to do something to get the prices somewhat regulated so there aren't such huge discrepancies and make sure that the hospitals and doctors aren't charging such ludicrous prices.

After I had to cancel my insurance I ended up not being able to get an appointment with my doctor (because he had a clerk who was a total bitch and wouldn't make an appointment for me) so I ended up having to go to the ER. I spent less than 2 minutes being examined by some doctor from Nigeria who I could barely understand, got one shot and an oral medication, and went home. They billed me for four medicines, two days stay, and other bull. Bill was over $1k and that did not include the $640 for the doctor's fee.

I do agree that it is absolutely retarded to make someone pay more for the same treatment or insurance because they have a higher income. Especially with the amount they are trying to charge. It's like people going in to a restaurant and being charged more for the same piece of steak just because they have more money-- but the amount of money a person has, doesn't make the treatment cost any more or less.

Basically, our system is just borked and I won't pretend to know how to fix it.


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## havasu

All I can do is just shake my head at the people who voted for that "Robbing Hood", who only finds ways to rob from the rich to give to the poor. 

Chris, I bet when you really think about it, if you quit your job, started collecting welfare, electronic food stamps, government subsidies, grabbed a few Obama phones and got your free medical insurance, you would probably be doing better than you are now.


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## nealtw

Well; Chris is one illness away from zannej's story of life time limits and cancilation under your old system.


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## Big Red

You may be able to have insurance now, but it's of little real help.  Who can afford the deductables if something happens?  Liberals think they can fix everything--they can't.


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## nealtw

It will take all branches of your Gov. and both parties to stand up to big business to work thru this and make it work for everyone... good luck with that.
If they work thru it your grandchildren will think it is wonderfull. We all have to make some sacrifices to make life better, just like our parents did. As long as we blame the lazy poor or the supper rich, we don't have to take responsibilty for what we can do. The country is nothing more than a team of people working together for a common goal, are you doing my part.
I suggest that this site is just that, we are here to help less fortunate not so lazy people get ahead.


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## frodo

.  I worked with a father,  son  backhoe crew. we put in sewers/waterlines for new homes.
 At lunch,  I opened my lunch bucket and brought out the ole bolognia sammich.  As he and his son, pulled out STEAK from their bucket.  He scoffed at my lunch,  
i told him i cant afford steak.  he asked why not its free.
Then he told me how its done.
This is also where the word "stays"  comes from
He said his wife collects   welfare, housing subsistence,food stamps, wic,  and anything else I have forgotten.
by telling the gubment,  He abandonded them,
he keeps all his clothes and belongings at his mommas house
he just "stays" their.
welfare visits,  no sign of him, 
he said thats how they all do it," I's don eats no bologna"  we's only eats steaks"  " it bes free"


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## nunyabiz1

this has absolutely ZERO to do with the ACA (Obamacare).

This has to do with INSURANCE COMPANIES screwing you which is what the ACA is attempting to try to stop.

The only real solution is a Medicare for All from cradle to grave type thing, where everyone is covered at a very low like $100/month rate for full coverage.
Universal Healthcare is the only viable option.

While the ACA HAS slowed down rising cost for most people, has given some people insurance that never could have gotten it before at any cost because of pre existing conditions.
It is NOT the answer, it is just a stopgap to help slow down the cost.

Just imagine if Tpublicans get their way and they get rid of Medicare, 60+ Million Seniors, AKA the highest risk group for medical care by far.
Now take those 60 Million seniors of which virtually none of them could ever possibly afford what the Insurance premium would be for someone over the age 65 and most would obviously have preexisting conditions.
Then imagine if these same Tpublicans manage to repeal the ACA.
We will have seniors dying, going to the ER running up massive medical bills of we ALL get to pay for.
Children will get saddled with the care for the their parents forcing most into bankruptcy.
EVERYONES premiums will skyrocket because of those that get healthcare are a much higher risk group, those that do not will simply wind up in the ER and not able to pay those bills which just gets added to those already insane hospital bills.

Think about that for a second and let it sink in.


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## nealtw

frodo said:


> .  I worked with a father,  son  backhoe crew. we put in sewers/waterlines for new homes.
> At lunch,  I opened my lunch bucket and brought out the ole bolognia sammich.  As he and his son, pulled out STEAK from their bucket.  He scoffed at my lunch,
> i told him i cant afford steak.  he asked why not its free.
> Then he told me how its done.
> This is also where the word "stays"  comes from
> He said his wife collects   welfare, housing subsistence,food stamps, wic,  and anything else I have forgotten.
> by telling the gubment,  He abandonded them,
> he keeps all his clothes and belongings at his mommas house
> he just "stays" their.
> welfare visits,  no sign of him,
> he said thats how they all do it," I's don eats no bologna"  we's only eats steaks"  " it bes free"



Conspiracy to commit fraud, the whole bunch should be in jail, only makes it worse for the real poor.


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## havasu

I have a fellow mod who gloated to everyone that since he is poor, he was able to get ACA for less than $20 a month. He just said he had two MRI's and lots of other preventative stuff done, for no deductible at all. Now, how in their right mind believe that is only a $10 procedure. Yep, it came off the backs of people like Chris. No, it is not fair, and anyone who believes in this system has consumed just too much Obama Kool Aid for me.


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## Chris

nunyabiz1 said:


> this has absolutely ZERO to do with the ACA (Obamacare).
> 
> This has to do with INSURANCE COMPANIES screwing you which is what the ACA is attempting to try to stop.
> 
> The only real solution is a Medicare for All from cradle to grave type thing, where everyone is covered at a very low like $100/month rate for full coverage.
> Universal Healthcare is the only viable option.
> 
> While the ACA HAS slowed down rising cost for most people, has given some people insurance that never could have gotten it before at any cost because of pre existing conditions.
> It is NOT the answer, it is just a stopgap to help slow down the cost.
> 
> Just imagine if Tpublicans get their way and they get rid of Medicare, 60+ Million Seniors, AKA the highest risk group for medical care by far.
> Now take those 60 Million seniors of which virtually none of them could ever possibly afford what the Insurance premium would be for someone over the age 65 and most would obviously have preexisting conditions.
> Then imagine if these same Tpublicans manage to repeal the ACA.
> We will have seniors dying, going to the ER running up massive medical bills of we ALL get to pay for.
> Children will get saddled with the care for the their parents forcing most into bankruptcy.
> EVERYONES premiums will skyrocket because of those that get healthcare are a much higher risk group, those that do not will simply wind up in the ER and not able to pay those bills which just gets added to those already insane hospital bills.
> 
> Think about that for a second and let it sink in.




If it had absolutely nothing to do with O'care then why did my premiums triple last January when it went into effect? My plan did not change for the better. When I asked my insurance guy I was told it was because the insurance companies are being forced to accept anyone that applies now regardless of pre-existing condition and that many many more things were covered which were not before and the insurance companies are charging for all that.

Free healthcare for someone just means that someone else is paying for it, whether it be from our tax dollars or any other avenue.

My monthly insurance cost a little over a year ago was 80 dollars per month including dental. January 1st it jumped to 265 per month for the exact same plan yet they dropped my office copays from 45 a visit to not covered. My wifes company family plan went from 400 a month to 1640 a month so I got a new plan for the family at 700 per month then had a second child and it went up to 840 a month. Before O'care you could have up to four children before the price of the plan went up.

The insurance companies are doing two things, they are adjusting the cost of their service to accommodate what they are being forced to cover and they are also in retaliation to the government for forcing them to do things so we are getting to pay for it.

Please tell me more on how this has nothing to do with O'care at all?


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## nealtw

havasu said:


> I have a fellow mod who gloated to everyone that since he is poor, he was able to get ACA for less than $20 a month. He just said he had two MRI's and lots of other preventative stuff done, for no deductible at all. Now, how in their right mind believe that is only a $10 procedure. Yep, it came off the backs of people like Chris. No, it is not fair, and anyone who believes in this system has consumed just too much Obama Kool Aid for me.



I think I'm in my right mind and I think that's fair.
Your friend has very limited income with something serious wrong to require that proceedure. 
Are you saying it would be better that if he had private insurance it should stop at a limit or if he had non, he should just die. Once he is to sick to work looses everything he has and still shows up at hospitals for treatment, who pays for that. That is one of the things that drive the price up. That's all great if you are trying to build a third world country.


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## Chris

For years I paid cash for all my doctors vists, including MRI's and any other procedures I had done and it was way cheaper than just the cost of my insurance plan. I had an MRI a little over two years ago for a hip issue I was having and it cost me 500 Cash, I had an MRI last week and with my insurance it cost me 1200 Copay. I pay 45 a visit now in my copay but if I tell them I don't have insurance it costs me 50 a visit.


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## nunyabiz1

havasu said:


> I have a fellow mod who gloated to everyone that since he is poor, he was able to get ACA for less than $20 a month. He just said he had two MRI's and lots of other preventative stuff done, for no deductible at all. Now, how in their right mind believe that is only a $10 procedure. Yep, it came off the backs of people like Chris. No, it is not fair, and anyone who believes in this system has consumed just too much Obama Kool Aid for me.



that is incorrect.
EVERYBODY gets Preventive care for free, it is part of the ACA regulations.
My wife just got a colonoscopy last week, cost was zero not even a deductible or co pay .
So we all get the same benefits as far as preventative care goes.

In respect to "people like Chris" paying for others, that is what ALL insurance is.
Want to make that bill higher for everyone? Simply have fewer and fewer people insured, have them go to ERs when their condition becomes so bad they have no choice and then WHO pays for that bill?
We all do.

No matter how you look at it we ALL are going to pay for it one way or another, far less expensive to get the poor insured and going to the doctor regularly than pay for the insanely high ER bills. 

Best possible solution is Universal Healthcare, then EVERYBODY is treated exactly the same, same cost no matter what you make.
That is why the healthcare in the US is rated 37th in the world even though we pay far more than anyone else.


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## nealtw

Chris said:


> For years I paid cash for all my doctors vists, including MRI's and any other procedures I had done and it was way cheaper than just the cost of my insurance plan. I had an MRI a little over two years ago for a hip issue I was having and it cost me 500 Cash, I had an MRI last week and with my insurance it cost me 1200 Copay. I pay 45 a visit now in my copay but if I tell them I don't have insurance it costs me 50 a visit.



All that cash goes in the other pocket un-taxed and shows up in his books as a lose and proves why he needs to charge so much, adding to cost for all.

Tell us again why we hate rules and regulation.


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## Chris

nunyabiz1 said:


> that is incorrect.
> EVERYBODY gets Preventive care for free, it is part of the ACA regulations.
> My wife just got a colonoscopy last week, cost was zero not even a deductible or co pay .
> So we all get the same benefits as far as preventative care goes.
> 
> In respect to "people like Chris" paying for others, that is what ALL insurance is.
> Want to make that bill higher for everyone? Simply have fewer and fewer people insured, have them go to ERs when their condition becomes so bad they have no choice and then WHO pays for that bill?
> We all do.
> 
> No matter how you look at it we ALL are going to pay for it one way or another, far less expensive to get the poor insured and going to the doctor regularly than pay for the insanely high ER bills.
> 
> Best possible solution is Universal Healthcare, then EVERYBODY is treated exactly the same, same cost no matter what you make.
> That is why the healthcare in the US is rated 37th in the world even though we pay far more than anyone else.



Who is paying for this preventative care for all these millions of people?


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## beachguy005

I think the reason premiums are so high is because of the pre-existing conditions requirement.  It's a bit of a catch 22...people that haven't had health care in the past or paid into any system for it, now get care for almost zero cost. Just zero cost to them, not the insurance companies.  Companies won't go into the red in hopes that sometime in the future they will be able to cover those costs.
Think about your auto insurance.  What do you think your rates would be if all someone had to do was register a damaged car, sign up for insurance, then just bring it in for repairs at no cost to them but that the insurance pays for?


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## nealtw

Chris said:


> Who is paying for this preventative care for all these millions of people?



Who paid for all those er visits before?


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## Chris

nealtw said:


> All that cash goes in the other pocket un-taxed and shows up in his books as a lose and proves why he needs to charge so much, adding to cost for all.
> 
> Tell us again why we hate rules and regulation.



I agree and disagree.

We all know the whole system is screwed up and not getting any better. Rules and regulation can help if they ever come up with any. Go to the hospital and that chair you are sitting on that costs about 8.50 to make was sold to the hospital for 1700 bucks, that Xray you just had done costs about 30 bucks after everything is paid for including a normal profit yet the insurance company is billed 900 bucks. When I go in and pay cash I am paying what things really cost and not this highly inflated game. I am sure some keep the cash and hide it from the IRS but that is a hole nother can o worms.

We run into the same thing in construction but the government is the one making the rules. I am working on a project installing sewer lines and the contract is 100k, the job would normally go for about 60k but the government says I need to pay my guys prevailing wage rates and a do certified payroll and a few other odds and ends. My guys are happy because they are making almost double what they were before and believe me they are paid good to begin with. To me this is about the same thing, there is no reason a guy who makes about 25 bucks an hour which is comparable to anyone else doing his job needs to make 48 bucks an hour because the government thinks that is what he needs to make to live a normal life style.

There is just no winning this battle. Maybe we need to fire the whole dang country and start over.


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## nunyabiz1

Chris said:


> If it had absolutely nothing to do with O'care then why did my premiums triple last January when it went into effect? My plan did not change for the better. When I asked my insurance guy I was told it was because the insurance companies are being forced to accept anyone that applies now regardless of pre-existing condition and that many many more things were covered which were not before and the insurance companies are charging for all that.
> 
> Free healthcare for someone just means that someone else is paying for it, whether it be from our tax dollars or any other avenue.
> 
> My monthly insurance cost a little over a year ago was 80 dollars per month including dental. January 1st it jumped to 265 per month for the exact same plan yet they dropped my office copays from 45 a visit to not covered. My wifes company family plan went from 400 a month to 1640 a month so I got a new plan for the family at 700 per month then had a second child and it went up to 840 a month. Before O'care you could have up to four children before the price of the plan went up.
> 
> The insurance companies are doing two things, they are adjusting the cost of their service to accommodate what they are being forced to cover and they are also in retaliation to the government for forcing them to do things so we are getting to pay for it.
> 
> Please tell me more on how this has nothing to do with O'care at all?




So to you the fact that Insurance companies are raising your cost even though they are actually making MORE money because of millions more in the system somehow means that the ACA is at fault, even though it is the Insurance companies that are raising your rates?
You realise of course that the insurance company is the one getting those subsidies from the government right?  So the insurance company is losing nothing and gaining everything, so tell me again why they are raising your rates?   Has zero to do with the ACA, has everything to do with what insurance companies have been doing since DAY ONE that insurance existed.
Remember Insurance Companies lobbied pretty heavily FOR the ACA not against it.

My wife and I have insurance through her employer, that employer was the Federal Court system of which she retired from 4+ years ago. We have the exact same HC as Congress and the Judiciary have.
We pay $250/month for FULL coverage, RX, Dental, Medical, Vision.
This premium has not changed other than one year it might go up $1 the next year it could be $2 less, far as I can remember I do not think it has changed say $10 total in 10+ years.
The only real change is just this year our deducible went up to $350 from $300, BUT with all the free preventative care we actually end up paying far less, in fact we may not even pay our full deductible this year.

Now why is our Insurance which is Federal BCBS not changed in 10 years while yours has tripled in just 2 years?
We are both under the same rules of the big bad ACA.

The only explanation is that insurance companies are going to screw you for as much as they possibly can just like they ALWAYS HAVE, the ACA has nothing to do with this, if anything the ACA handed those same insurance company's a windfall of massive profits, they could in fact LOWER your premiums and make just as much as they did 5 years ago.

So, again the only real solution is Universal Healthcare or a Medicare for All type thing, that way people like yourself do not pay more than someone making minimum wage.
Healthcare would be exactly the same for everyone regardless of income, either free, or a nominal $100/month and those that could not afford the $100 would be subsidized but that is about it.
But not you paying $1,000 a month while someone else pays $20. 

As long as FOR PROFIT Health Insurance companies are in charge of your healthcare we are all going to paying more and more and more.
For Profit healthcare is immoral, it should be a crime.

It is along the same lines as For Profit Prisons, a prison system set up to MAKE MONEY by keeping as many people as possible incarcerated?
That is insane.

So is for profit healthcare, the ACA tried and largely failed to keep cost down because it did not go far enough to control Insurance Companies.
the best thing is to get rid of that middle man altogether, they are basically leeches and parasites and there is really no reason for them to exist.


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## Chris

nealtw said:


> Who paid for all those er visits before?



I have always paid for my own visits just like I paid for my own food and clothing. When I didn't have enough money I went out and found work and worked for it. When I couldn't afford to have a phone I didn't have a phone. It's pretty simple in my little world, if I can afford something I do without or find a way. 

I think insurance should only cover catastrophic things just like car insurance. Leave it up to the person to do their own preventative maintenance. When I was younger we grew up dirt floor poor. we used free clinics or saved for what we needed. I had a couple surgeries when I was young and we made payments until it was paid off. People have lost that sense of responsibility. Health insurance gets abused a lot of the time. People will go to the doctor if they stub their toe or get a common cold which in turn runs up costs for everyone.


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## nunyabiz1

Chris said:


> Who is paying for this preventative care for all these millions of people?



We all are, just like we all are paying for those unpaid for ER visits, guess which one is FAR more costly?
Either we insure everyone so all bills can be paid, we make it so that preventive care is free so that underlying conditions are found early thus cost FAR less for treatment which cost us all far less.  We just need to make regulations that force these insurance companies to pass on those savings to the consumer instead of into their pockets.

Or well we can all just pay cash for all medical care.
Hope you got a few hundred $1000 lying around if you get in a car accident and require a very lengthy hospital stay or maybe you get cancer or any of the 1000s of other diseases that could cost 10s even 100s of 1000s.

Healthcare should be a RIGHT not a privilege.


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## nealtw

Chris said:


> I agree and disagree.
> 
> There is just no winning this battle. Maybe we need to fire the whole dang country and start over.



I understand you are caught in the middle. I hhave been all over this deal as I have worked in union and non union jobs and owned both union and non union businesses.

You have to understand history to figure it out. A hundred years ago there was one or two companies that controled your industry, they were well connected and helped right the rules and could care less about employees. Just to get a seat at the table people died for the right to have an organization or union.
Once that was in place the business owners went back to there contacts and had the rule ,only union shops need apply, that's where that fair wage thing came from. Once they had that greed kicked in when they realized they could charge way more. Once the union figured out how much the empoyer was making on theirback they wanted and got their fair share.

As you read that and think ya, it's those union guys that did this, remember, if non of that gread and sharing happened there would be no room for you in the business.


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## Chris

nunyabiz1 said:


> So to you the fact that Insurance companies are raising your cost even though they are actually making MORE money because of millions more in the system somehow means that the ACA is at fault, even though it is the Insurance companies that are raising your rates?
> You realise of course that the insurance company is the one getting those subsidies from the government right?  So the insurance company is losing nothing and gaining everything, so tell me again why they are raising your rates?   Has zero to do with the ACA, has everything to do with what insurance companies have been doing since DAY ONE that insurance existed.
> Remember Insurance Companies lobbied pretty heavily FOR the ACA not against it.
> 
> My wife and I have insurance through her employer, that employer was the Federal Court system of which she retired from 4+ years ago. We have the exact same HC as Congress and the Judiciary have.
> We pay $250/month for FULL coverage, RX, Dental, Medical, Vision.
> This premium has not changed other than one year it might go up $1 the next year it could be $2 less, far as I can remember I do not think it has changed say $10 total in 10+ years.
> The only real change is just this year our deducible went up to $350 from $300, BUT with all the free preventative care we actually end up paying far less, in fact we may not even pay our full deductible this year.
> 
> Now why is our Insurance which is Federal BCBS not changed in 10 years while yours has tripled in just 2 years?
> We are both under the same rules of the big bad ACA.
> 
> The only explanation is that insurance companies are going to screw you for as much as they possibly can just like they ALWAYS HAVE, the ACA has nothing to do with this, if anything the ACA handed those same insurance company's a windfall of massive profits, they could in fact LOWER your premiums and make just as much as they did 5 years ago.
> 
> So, again the only real solution is Universal Healthcare or a Medicare for All type thing, that way people like yourself do not pay more than someone making minimum wage.
> Healthcare would be exactly the same for everyone regardless of income, either free, or a nominal $100/month and those that could not afford the $100 would be subsidized but that is about it.
> But not you paying $1,000 a month while someone else pays $20.
> 
> As long as FOR PROFIT Health Insurance companies are in charge of your healthcare we are all going to paying more and more and more.
> For Profit healthcare is immoral, it should be a crime.
> 
> It is along the same lines as For Profit Prisons, a prison system set up to MAKE MONEY by keeping as many people as possible incarcerated?
> That is insane.
> 
> So is for profit healthcare, the ACA tried and largely failed to keep cost down because it did not go far enough to control Insurance Companies.
> the best thing is to get rid of that middle man altogether, they are basically leeches and parasites and there is really no reason for them to exist.



I agree to a certain extent. When we look at government run anything most have failed in some way or end up costing much more than thought. If everyone in the country was required to pay 100 dollars a month would that cover the costs of hospitals? Would that pay the salaries of the doctors who spent a boat load of their own money to learn this stuff or are they going to tell them what they make now too? Where does it end? Would we end up a country that gets told where we work and what we do for a living? Why not have government grocery stores too that give us our weekly allowance of healthy food? Where does it end? if you let them control everything then why would anyone strive to do better than anyone else? 

Take me for example, I grew up dirt floor poor, I didn't want to be poor anymore, I wanted some finer things in life. I dropped out of high school in the tenth grade to go to work full time. I started my work career at 13 years old. I worked my *** off and did what it took to get ahead. By 28 I owned my own company and now I do pretty well for myself in my mid 30's. Never once did anyone help me out or pay for anything. I saved my money and did what I had to do. Now that I am doing slightly better than most in my age group I get to pay more than others who don't have the drive I do to get ahead. That is where my problem is. The government will pay for most of all of the health care for someone who does not make much money yet feels that I should pay more because I work my *** off. Why can't the government pay for some of my healthcare too if they are trying to make things fair and affordable? I say the government because I am getting my price quotes from the government run website.

Remember I only speak from what I see here in California where there are very few truly poor people. Most poor people here that are on government assistance are driving a nicer car than I do living in a larger house with a bigger TV. I would have much less negative towards government assistance if there was less scamming going on. They need to have more of their own rules and regulation to makes sure those getting assistance actually need it.


----------



## zannej

I can see both sides of this. As I said, I don't know what the solution to the problem is, although I do think that there needs to be some regulation of what hospitals and doctors charge.

I see people saying that ACA guarantees everyone can get preventative care for free... Not true. That does not happen where I live. I don't expect free healthcare, but I would like it to be at least affordable. My general practice doctor is nice enough to reduce the office visit fee because he knows I don't have insurance. I live in an area with a lot of poverty. Median household income is less than $25k per year in this area and they estimate that at least $45k per year is needed for a living wage.

On one hand, I don't think its right to give people a completely free ride if they are too lazy to do anything and they just want to bilk the government. We have a system that penalizes people who work hard but rewards people for being lazy and the system is easy to fool. I know some people who legitimately need public assistance and who work but have had bad luck with natural disasters and injuries, but I also know some people who just cheat the system.

I will say, that it is sad that there are people who are dying because they can't afford healthcare. I feel more sorry for the children who can't do anything about their situation. I have friends who work and who have insurance but still can't afford some treatment for their children because the co-pays are so high.


----------



## nunyabiz1

Chris said:


> I agree to a certain extent. When we look at government run anything most have failed in some way or end up costing much more than thought. If everyone in the country was required to pay 100 dollars a month would that cover the costs of hospitals? Would that pay the salaries of the doctors who spent a boat load of their own money to learn this stuff or are they going to tell them what they make now too? Where does it end? Would we end up a country that gets told where we work and what we do for a living? Why not have government grocery stores too that give us our weekly allowance of healthy food? Where does it end? if you let them control everything then why would anyone strive to do better than anyone else?



You realize of course that most every other country in the world has Universal Healthcare or some form of it and they spend far less than we do here and get better Healthcare than we do, right?
So if say Denmark or Finland can afford to give everyone virtually free healthcare, give all those doctors a FREE education unlike here.
Their doctors make just about the same as doctors here do.
So how is that Denmark and Finland can magically pull this off yet in the US we pay MORE and get LESS?
These countries also have a much higher standard of living and in general are happier and healthier with less poverty than here and even those that are under the poverty line are better taken care of.
I would take that "Socialism" anyday over rampant out of control Capitalism that inevitably leads to Fascism.

Why is it do you think that the top 2% just keep on getting richer and richer while the bottom 98% poorer?


----------



## frodo

why should I pay for abortions and birth control?  I am not a woman.
why should i pay for mammy grams ?
why should i pay for drug rehab?  i dont do drugs

why should i pay for a bunch of crap that i do not want or need?

who said I should pay for YOUR medical costs.  I am not your momma.

pay for your own.

should I be saddled with EVERYBODIES health care costs?
how about housing?
utilities?
food?
clothes? 
when do people take responsibility for them selves? 
I will pay for MY health care,  you pay for yours.


if you guys in different countries want to live in a nanny state, go for it.
 I do not want to live in a socialistic/ communiest government



the more people on social programs,  [pigs sucking the tit]
the more lazy *** sit around the house do nothings we have.
 proven fact,  when welfare is cut,  people get off their buts and get jobs


----------



## nunyabiz1

frodo said:


> why should I pay for abortions and birth control?  I am not a woman.
> why should i pay for mammy grams ?
> why should i pay for drug rehab?  i dont do drugs
> 
> why should i pay for a bunch of crap that i do not want or need?
> 
> who said I should pay for YOUR medical costs.  I am not your momma.
> 
> pay for your own.
> 
> should I be saddled with EVERYBODIES health care costs?
> how about housing?
> utilities?
> food?
> clothes?
> when do people take responsibility for them selves?
> I will pay for MY health care,  you pay for yours.



So then you would rather have no insurance of any kind, just pay cash for everything and IF you do not have enough cash well then time for you to die?

In a system of 'Insurance" that is how it works, everyone pays for everyone else hopefully at a discounted rate or at least levels out so that you pay a set amount instead of nothing as long as you are perfectly healthy but get in an accident or get sick and BAM, that will be $97,890 Frodo, Oh you cant afford that?

There is a pad on the ground over there shall I notify your next of kin to come pick up the body?

You are going to pay for it one way or another.

The absolute cheapest way is for everyone to pay taxes that are enough to take care of everyone's Medical care, Education, and overall safety nets.

The only people that benefit from extremely low taxes and not paying anything except for oneself? are just the filthy rich.

If you are filthy rich living in right wing world would be pure nirvana, everyone else? Not so much.


Obama
1 Does not care if you own a gun
2. Wants you to have a well paying job with benefits
3. Is a Harvard educated Constitutional Law Professor.


----------



## frodo

dont worry about obummrnocare, the whole thing is crumbling like a deck of cards on its own


----------



## frodo

nunyabiz1 said:


> So then you would rather have no insurance of any kind, just pay cash for everything and IF you do not have enough cash well then time for you to die?
> 
> In a system of 'Insurance" that is how it works, everyone pays for everyone else hopefully at a discounted rate or at least levels out so that you pay a set amount instead of nothing as long as you are perfectly healthy but get in an accident or get sick and BAM, that will be $97,890 Frodo, Oh you cant afford that?
> where do you get the misconception that everyone with out insurance will fall over dead?   fact of the matter is, the majority only need preventive medicine. I am happy to pay for those visits out of my own pocket, OR have a simple plan that covers only that
> There is a pad on the ground over there shall I notify your next of kin to come pick up the body?
> 
> You are going to pay for it one way or another.
> 
> The absolute cheapest way is for everyone to pay taxes that are enough to take care of everyone's Medical care, Education, and overall safety nets.
> FLAT TAX my mis informed friend
> The only people that benefit from extremely low taxes and not paying anything except for oneself? are just the filthy rich.
> 
> If you are filthy rich living in right wing world would be pure nirvana, everyone else? Not so much.
> 
> 
> Obama
> 1 Does not care if you own a gun
> then why is he trying so hard to have them outlawed
> 2. Wants you to have a well paying job with benefits
> then why is he driving business over sea's with the highest tax's on business in the world,
> 
> 3. Is a Harvard educated Constitutional Law Professor.


just because you have a lot of jewelry,  does not make you MR T


----------



## slownsteady

frodo said:


> why should I pay for abortions and birth control?  I am not a woman.
> why should i pay for mammy grams ?
> why should i pay for drug rehab?  i dont do drugs
> 
> why should i pay for a bunch of crap that i do not want or need?
> 
> who said I should pay for YOUR medical costs.  I am not your momma.
> 
> pay for your own.
> 
> should I be saddled with EVERYBODIES health care costs?
> how about housing?
> utilities?
> food?
> clothes?
> when do people take responsibility for them selves?
> I will pay for MY health care,  you pay for yours.
> 
> 
> if you guys in different countries want to live in a nanny state, go for it.
> I do not want to live in a socialistic/ communiest government
> 
> 
> 
> the more people on social programs,  [pigs sucking the tit]
> the more lazy *** sit around the house do nothings we have.
> proven fact,  when welfare is cut,  people get off their buts and get jobs



That's fine if you are healthy and have money. Pray that we should all be so lucky. But if one little thing goes wrong....PFFFFFT! It's all gone. Lose your job? Injure your back? Get an unlucky break and find you have bad genes? You're S.O.L. 
If all those people just disappeared, like changing the channel on the TV, no problem. But they are still here, they're poor and they're disgruntled. No problem for you, yet.


----------



## nunyabiz1

> "where do you get the misconception that everyone with out insurance will fall over dead? fact of the matter is, the majority only need preventive medicine. I am happy to pay for those visits out of my own pocket, OR have a simple plan that covers only that"



Didn't say that, but if insurance did not exist and doctors only accepted cash then if you do not have the cash then you do not get the care, thus you die.



> "FLAT TAX my mis informed friend"



Flat tax thoroughly screws the poor and the bottom 50 or so percent of the population while the rich skate with even more money.
My thinks he's informed friend.

"





> then why is he trying so hard to have them outlawed"


Like what exactly?  What has Obama tried to pass to take away guns from anyone? other than fully automatic assault weapons.



> "then why is he driving business over sea's with the highest tax's on business in the world,


 "

LOL, taxes are lower than they have been in over 50+ years for businesses.
What has actually made corporations go overseas are the Bills that the Corporations themselves fought for to give them incentives to take jobs overseas, mostly passed by Tpublicans BTW.
The tax rate Vs the "effective tax rates" are two completely different things.

It is possible that a Business could theoretically pay as much as 39.1% in tax both Fed/state combined if they are run by an imbecile.
However with loopholes and incentives and tax breaks and deferments and on and on the average corporation in the US pays between 12-27% in fact some of the most profitable corporations actually pay LESS than nothing, they get MONEY BACK without even paying a dime.

Your best bet is to stop watching Fox so called news, your panties will untwist within a year or two and you will be a happier person.


----------



## Chris

nunyabiz1 said:


> You realize of course that most every other country in the world has Universal Healthcare or some form of it and they spend far less than we do here and get better Healthcare than we do, right?
> So if say Denmark or Finland can afford to give everyone virtually free healthcare, give all those doctors a FREE education unlike here.
> Their doctors make just about the same as doctors here do.
> So how is that Denmark and Finland can magically pull this off yet in the US we pay MORE and get LESS?
> These countries also have a much higher standard of living and in general are happier and healthier with less poverty than here and even those that are under the poverty line are better taken care of.
> I would take that "Socialism" anyday over rampant out of control Capitalism that inevitably leads to Fascism.
> 
> Why is it do you think that the top 2% just keep on getting richer and richer while the bottom 98% poorer?



My family on my mother side is from Sweden and many still live there. They have a similar system that you talk about but the care is not better. The preventative maintenance is better but for anything major it is not, most of them come here and pay cash for care. My Aunt lived in London, she got cancer, there was a few places here that specialize in it but she couldn't afford to come here and pay for it, she used their socialized care and all they did was let her die comfortably, she died two years later. She tried everything to get back here to get some proper care from a specialized place that focuses on certain ailments. She kept telling us how hard it was to get in with a doctor and that they flat out refused to go above and beyond to try and help her. She was 46 when she passed. I here the same stories from family and friends in other countries.


----------



## nealtw

This went from a discussion to political and it should stop there are forums  for that and this is not one.


----------



## slownsteady

> stop watching Fox so called news, your panties will untwist within a year or two and you will be a happier person.


So true. It seems their entire business plan is to make people angry.


----------



## slownsteady

My sister died of cancer at 50. Right here in the good ol' USA. And she had insurance. What's your point?


----------



## Chris

Here is another little story.

My mother passed away two years ago on January 26th. She died because she went to the clinic which was county run. She went there monday morning saying something didn't feel right in her chest, they told her she had a cold and sent her on her way. She came back on wednesday saying whatever it was was getting worse and it didn't feel right like any cold and she thought something was really wrong. They told her it must be bronchitis and gave her medicine and sent her home. She came back thursday saying things are getting worse. They sent her home and told her to rest. Saturday morning she called my sister to take her to the hospital but she never made it out the front door. Turns out since she had been a diabetic since age three her body doesn't have the same symptoms as yours or mine and she was having mini heart attacks all week. The guy in the ambulance knew within a minute yet this county paid professional would not even look into it further with her begging him to. She kept a log the last week of her life explaining everything she had told them and what she felt, she knew she was dying but they wouldn't listen. She didn't tell us kids because she didn't want us to worry.


----------



## Chris

slownsteady said:


> My sister died of cancer at 50. Right here in the good ol' USA. And she had insurance. What's your point?



point was she couldn't even get the care she needed from the hospitals in London. Which are government run. Everyone says how great the healthcare is in others countries, my point is that it is not.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Here is another little story.
> 
> My mother passed away two years ago on January 26th. She died because she went to the clinic which was county run. She went there monday morning saying something didn't feel right in her chest, they told her she had a cold and sent her on her way. She came back on wednesday saying whatever it was was getting worse and it didn't feel right like any cold and she thought something was really wrong. They told her it must be bronchitis and gave her medicine and sent her home. She came back thursday saying things are getting worse. They sent her home and told her to rest. Saturday morning she called my sister to take her to the hospital but she never made it out the front door. Turns out since she had been a diabetic since age three her body doesn't have the same symptoms as yours or mine and she was having mini heart attacks all week. The guy in the ambulance knew within a minute yet this county paid professional would not even look into it further with her begging him to. She kept a log the last week of her life explaining everything she had told them and what she felt, she knew she was dying but they wouldn't listen. She didn't tell us kids because she didn't want us to worry.



That's human error and it will happen in any country on any system no matter how much you pay, or don't pay.


----------



## Chris

nunyabiz1 said:


> Didn't say that, but if insurance did not exist and doctors only accepted cash then if you do not have the cash then you do not get the care, thus you die.
> 
> 
> 
> Flat tax thoroughly screws the poor and the bottom 50 or so percent of the population while the rich skate with even more money.
> My thinks he's informed friend.
> 
> "
> Like what exactly?  What has Obama tried to pass to take away guns from anyone? other than fully automatic assault weapons.
> 
> "
> 
> LOL, taxes are lower than they have been in over 50+ years for businesses.
> What has actually made corporations go overseas are the Bills that the Corporations themselves fought for to give them incentives to take jobs overseas, mostly passed by Tpublicans BTW.
> The tax rate Vs the "effective tax rates" are two completely different things.
> 
> It is possible that a Business could theoretically pay as much as 39.1% in tax both Fed/state combined if they are run by an imbecile.
> However with loopholes and incentives and tax breaks and deferments and on and on the average corporation in the US pays between 12-27% in fact some of the most profitable corporations actually pay LESS than nothing, they get MONEY BACK without even paying a dime.
> 
> Your best bet is to stop watching Fox so called news, your panties will untwist within a year or two and you will be a happier person.



Explain a little more on the flat tax and how it screws the lower class? I honestly don't know. I figured it would be more fair for all to pay say 10% of their income instead of the lower class paying 3% and the middle class paying 35%. Don't take this as a stab but the upper few percent probably pay more in taxes than most everyone else combined. I pay more in taxes for my company than most make in a year. I would love a flat tax. You make 1000 bucks a year you pay 100 bucks, you make 100000 a year and you pay 10000. How is that not fair?


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> That's human error and it will happen in any country on any system no matter how much you pay, or don't pay.



It is, I blame that doctor to a certain extent. At these clinics they get people coming everyday trying for free drugs or for things that maybe they don't need to see a doctor for so they get used to just shuffling the people through the clinic and getting them out of there. I have been there, they get so busy they can not give 1 on 1 care or have the time to look into anything. The doctors there are not there because that is their dream job but because they are either new doctors or that is who was hiring. It is government funded so they don't get the best quality out there.


----------



## Chris

Point of this thread is that healthcare costs are ridiculous. We can blame the government or the big business but in reality they are both at fault and work together. No one has the balls to stand up to either of them. I am upset with the government because every action has a reaction and the reaction to ACA is me getting to pay more to big business. Therefore I hate them both.


----------



## frodo

YOUR[ QUOTE]Like what exactly? What has Obama tried to pass to take away guns from anyone? other than fully automatic assault weapons.[/QUOTE]

please explain your sentence to me?  I do not understand it

 fully auto weapons were banned in 1934,  you have to have a federal sticker to own one. WAY WAY EXPENSIVE. 

 what iS  an assault weapon?   can you explain to me what it is? 

  is this an assault rifle ?  


or is this an a salt  rifle ?  View attachment 8379



they are the same gun,   savage caliber in .308
 Its like your wife getting a new dress,  same old girl under the pretty clothes


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## frodo

I guess this is just crazy talk from fox news.  OH WAIT...its cnn reporting this.  

Inversion  47 other companies have done this also


----------



## zannej

Chris, I am so sorry about what happened to your mother. *hugs* I would be beyond pissed off at those doctors. I've dealt with a lot of medical incompetence around these parts, but I won't get into all the details.

I think one of the problems going on is that it seems to be harder to get jobs now (at least in some places). Machines replaced people and then companies started importing products from China. Companies are outsourcing or hiring illegal aliens because its cheaper than hiring US citizens. There are litigious assholes with nuisance suits costing everyone money. Then we have a system that gives people more money to sit at home than they could make if they were working. Where I live, there are no more unemployment offices. They all shut down and they want people to file applications online-- but not everyone has internet access to be able to do so AND the software is temperamental so things don't always work. It's hard for someone to talk to an actual human being to get answers and assistance.

Then we have a system where if you don't have a good education you can't get a better paying job, but in places where there aren't many of the higher end jobs, having an education can hurt you because they say you are "overqualified" and won't hire you. They won't let you just walk in and apply for a job-- they tell you to apply online and not to call them.

And because employers are being told they have to cover more healthcare costs for employees, some companies are trying to worm their way out of it by using dirty tactics to treat people as part-time and cut their hours so they get less pay and also hire fewer people so they don't have to pay as much-- which also affects the job market. The local Walmart is particularly bad about this.

I have to agree that both the government AND the businesses are making things worse. The banks aren't helping much with trying to get people in debt up to their eyeballs for an education that now won't even guarantee a job. 

Oh yeah, what do you guys think about the US hiring foreign doctors that didn't have to go through the same level of training as US doctors to get their degrees and get hired? Most of the doctors at my local hospital are foreigners that don't seem to understand English and who seem to have gotten their medical degrees out of Crackerjack boxes. The local cardiologist is a complete and total quack and many people (including my father) died because of his incompetence. 

Sorry, venting...

TLDR? It's a cluster****.


----------



## Chris

I can't blame businesses for cutting back on hiring and keeping people part time. As a business owner if I were told that I have to give healthcare to all my employees or cut their hours to 29, what would you do? Paying for health care for all would put us out of business.


----------



## frodo

Your in a pickle Chris,   Contractors do not wanna hear your financial problems.  and you had better have some one on that job 40 hours a week,  or another company will be on the bid list in your place.  

caught tween the rock and a hard place. 

most small contractors around here are laying off their full time hourly workers and hiring them back as  contract workers

thats how they are going around the health insurance. 

for ya'll that dont know.  instead of an hourly wage. you are paid by the job.  you pay your own tax's, ins, etc.


----------



## Chris

In CA that is illegal. If you are not an hourly or salary employee you have to have your own contractors license. They put us in a hard spot. I pay more money to the government and to insurances than I do anywhere else.


----------



## zannej

Chris said:


> I can't blame businesses for cutting back on hiring and keeping people part time. As a business owner if I were told that I have to give healthcare to all my employees or cut their hours to 29, what would you do? Paying for health care for all would put us out of business.



Oh, I agree. It is particularly hard for small businesses to pay the employees-- especially when you already have to pay FICA and SUTA and all the other costs. However, there are some large corporations that could actually afford to pay but they want a larger profit margin so they don't even pay their employees a living wage (*coughWalmartcough*). 

I sometimes wonder if maybe there were more tax breaks for companies that chose to hire US citizens and operate inside the country while having higher taxes or fees involved for outsourcing that it might help. I don't know though. I just wish there was more incentive to hire US workers inside the US. The quality of products and services have declined because of the outsourcing. I won't even get started on outsourced tech support aka one of the banes of my existence. 

But back to the healthcare issue, I do really think one of the first steps that should be taken is to look at how much places are charging for things and evaluate how much it actually costs and then have a system where prices are advertised ahead of time so people won't be so shocked when they get the bills. There should be a way to price compare medical services but also rate the quality of service. Maybe there already is such a system in some places, but its not available where I live. If the government, as flawed as it is, were to look in to what causes the highest expenses for hospitals and medical facilities maybe they could try to find a way to minimize it and to get prices to be more reasonable. Once they get prices to be somewhat consistent and reasonable, then maybe it won't cost the insurance companies so much for stuff and the insurance companies in turn wouldn't have to charge as much. I also think they need to look at what insurance companies approve and deny and try to come to an agreement on what is reasonable. Sometimes they will approve something one day and deny it another.

I have a friend who has worked hard her whole life but is almost bankrupt from her soon-to-be ex-husband's medical bills. Every time she tried to save up money something happened- like a car breaking down, husband had another MS attack and insurance said he'd already met the lifetime payout, doctors wanted money up front for her daughter's medical treatment, air conditioner broke down, her job cut her salary and didn't give her one of her paychecks.... She's not by any stretch a lazy person, but she was dealt a raw deal. Her husband's condition got to the point that she no longer feels safe with him and he had to move out-- but he can actually get better benefits and treatment by NOT being married to her because they said her income was too high to qualify for assistance even though she was barely making ends meet because of the medical crap. I know this doesn't happen with every family, but it is sad to see.

By the way, I love you guys.


----------



## frodo

case in point.  while in Texas,  I broke a front axle on my 4x4.  I had extended warranty,  not worried about it.
I toke my truck to GMAC  and told them to fix it.   they caled me back,  said the Ins. denied the claim.  said it was abuse
 I told GMAc to fix it , I would pay myself.  JUST FIX IT!! I was told it would be $2900.00
 mean while I was on the phone with the INS co.   HOW can using a 4x4  for its intended purpose be abuse?  after a few words
 they agreed to fix it.
I saw the bill,  they paid $1900.00    $1000.00 less than what I was going to pay. THAT is the problem, price gauging


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> case in point.  while in Texas,  I broke a front axle on my 4x4.  I had extended warranty,  not worried about it.
> I toke my truck to GMAC  and told them to fix it.   they caled me back,  said the Ins. denied the claim.  said it was abuse
> I told GMAc to fix it , I would pay myself.  JUST FIX IT!! I was told it would be $2900.00
> mean while I was on the phone with the INS co.   HOW can using a 4x4  for its intended purpose be abuse?  after a few words
> they agreed to fix it.
> I saw the bill,  they paid $1900.00    $1000.00 less than what I was going to pay. THAT is the problem, price gauging



Yeah, the price gouging is a major problem. And then you have things like my friend encountered where the insurance paid for her husband's medicine. It was the only medicine that helped with his pain. It was approved before, but suddenly they said they weren't going to cover it anymore and it would cost my friend $2000 for the stuff. They said they would partially cover a generic but it was like $600 co-pay and she couldn't afford it. Pharmaceutical costs are just insane (and I do know part of it is to cover the cost of clinical trials and lawsuits, but its still ridiculous).

And then we have a system that rewards people for being criminals because people in prison can get free education and medical care. They now have a cure for Hepatitis C but most people can't afford it. They are giving it to prison inmates who got HepC from sharing needles, but a nurse who got HepC from an unfortunate incident at work is dying because he can't afford it. 

Bonkers.


----------



## slownsteady

Healthcare IS a complicated problem. And no one - no country - seems to have a perfect answer. But in this country, we have got lost in the weeds. 
First, you can't blame it ALL on Obama. He didn't invent the problem and he didn't invent the ACA all by himself. Many smart people worked on a solution to something that was a problem before this administration took office. Give them credit for trying, at least. The problem is that there is way too much money at stake and those with the money (and the power in DC...which money can and does buy) don't want it to change. The ACA was a compromise from the start. It needs improvement or possibly even a better alternate plan. But going back seems absurd.


----------



## Chris

I agree and the only reason I want to go back is because before I could easily afford healthcare and I was taken care of. I remember ten years ago I was paying about fifty bucks a month for medical and dental with a ten dollar copay per visit. I want that back. I know it is not totally tge presidents fault but he is the figure head of the whole thing so he gets the blame. I must not have paid as much attention in the past and it was probably because I had nothing to complain about.


----------



## havasu

All I can say at this moment is I am glad to see this thread continue here on this forum. Understanding this is under the chit chat section, it is a hot button topic and whether we discuss it here or on another forum, it will be discussed. I happen to know that the owners of this site prefer us sticking around in here, rather than changing channels. I appreciate everyone's honesty, and also appreciate that name calling was kept to a minimum.


----------



## zannej

Unfortunately, I don't think the going back would make the insurance companies lower their rates again. Many of them claim to be "not for profit" but they have billions of $ stored away in banks accruing interest. 

I know one of the hurdles is that in order to even begin to fix things, we have to get some sort of organized system to start making the changes and its hard to get people to agree on things and there are people who are inept or corrupt and they interfere.

I mentioned before that we need to try to regulate the hospitals and clinics and figure out how to get prices down, but that will require government intervention, which means they will have to assign people to collect the data, figure out what costs are reasonable, and then try to enforce it. Which takes manpower and $. But sometimes I wonder if it would be worth it so Medicare/Medicaid or whatever doesn't have to pay for people to go to the ER and get some absurd bill when it would have been less expensive for them to go to a regular doctor for preventative care in the first place.

Havasu, I'm glad to see that, for the most part, this thread eschewed ad hominem arguments. It shows that we have an awesome group of people here.

Anyway, I think I've devised a plan:
Step 1: Steal Underpants
Step 2: ??
Step 3: Profit


----------



## frodo

I think if we went back , BUt  made it so you could buy out of state insurance,  the rates would go down due to competition  

open market, competition works
or am i wrong?


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## Chris

What do you mean by buy out of state?


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## zannej

I thought many of the insurance companies service most states, so I don't think there is a lack of competition.

I really do think we need to start with the price gouging problem and whittle down the prices to something reasonable and then the insurance companies might not have to spend as much money and then they wouldn't be able to justify charging so much.

I just don't know exactly how we'd go about doing it though.


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## nealtw

Years ago our agreement with emplyees required we pay for the dental plan. The insurance company said our group was to small so they put us in with a few other group about the same size. One you they raised the rate by 300%. When I phoned to complain I was told it was right as all they do is tally up last years expences add 20% and divide that by the number of people in the plan. It turned out that all the other companies in the group had gone out of business and we were to pay for last years expences.:banana:


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## oldognewtrick

Chris said:


> What do you mean by buy out of state?



Ins companies are not allowed to cross state lines. I have Blue Cross/Blue Shield. It's BC/BS of Tennessee. So they form a company for each state they provide in. Opening up the market would make for more completion. 

It's not legal to form a group solely for the purpose of buying ins. Allowing groups would make for bigger pools.

Zanne raised the question about the reserves that ins companies have, they are required to keep these reserves by law so if there are massive claims, funds are there to pay them.

The reason I'm against the ACA, is it's created much gov't regulation, hasn't increased the amount of people who have ins, we still have the same amount of people who are not covered by any ins. I feel the govt has enough control over our lives. If this program is so great why have the 100's of companies been allowed to opt out of it? Why isn't this the program that congress has? 

If this was implemented so that every American was enrolled, everyone paid in to it and was provided quality coverage, I'd jump on board. The ACA isn't about ins, it's about wealth redistribution as Chris has found out with his rate increases.


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## bud16415

I thought I was in good health until I read this thread and now I have high blood pressure a migraine headache possible bleeding anus and for sure constipation. 

My view point will change no one&#8217;s mind and I only have one vote as do we all. I almost wrote a long post explaining my views on the subject but I really only see one poster maybe two that have any chance of with an open mind looking for truth out of all the talking points that have flowed so freely in this thread. So out of respect for the true nature of this forum I will refrain from stirring the pot and hearing the preprogramed rebuttals I have heard a 1000 times before. 

I would ask those that post respect the viewpoint of those you disagree with when I see someone take the time to write a 1000 word reply and then cheapen the meaning of those words by using slang name calling like calling the party of nearly half the registered voters in the country &#8220; Tpublicans&#8221; repeatedly. Sometimes being cute is being too cute.  

I will end this with saying I&#8217;m as compassionate of a person to my fellow man as anyone can be and my viewpoint on all these issues is based around compassion. For the one or two people that may be reading this with a totally open mind think about what is true compassion and what is the relationship of the bigger picture with this issue at hand. Think back on the lessons of your own life and how your parents taught you and how that reflects the person you are today. If you felt your parents showed you compassion and taught you right, think about those lessons and how they formed your ideals. They grew up in harder times most likely as did their parents before them but they were happy controlling their destiny. Life is not supposed to be easy or given to us in this country. It is supposed to be worked for and the strong are supposed help the weak and the children and the old.


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## Chris

Well Said Bud!


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## zannej

Thanks for that explanation, oldog. I really should learn more about how this system works. 
I didn't realize the issue about insurance companies in different states. The medical in Louisiana is so atrocious that my father had to go to Texas for some treatments, but the insurance still covered it-- but that was prior to 2009. Is the state line thing something new?

Bud, I'd be interested in reading your thoughts if you'd like to PM them to me.

I do know one of the issues is that its hard to find the right balance of how much help to provide or who to help and when. People need to know how to take care of themselves and stand on their own; that said, there are some people who are unable to take care of themselves due to physical or mental health issues. But its tough to figure out which people legitimately need help and which ones are just mooching. The jackasses who are currently abusing the system are just ruining it for everyone involved.


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## nealtw

Bud; I agree and maybe feel even more strongly about it. This is not a political site and there should be a hard and fast rule about that. I like a good debate and don't really care which side I have to defend, it is mostly just fun. But this is not the place for it. I have noticed that when things do come up the guilty parties are most of the time regulars, the people like us that have an opinion and don't mind sharing it. And yes you can find places where I crossed the line too.
I came here thinking I could help people who were down and out after the market crash. It didn't take long to see people of all stripes were coming for help. Even some well off people can lose everything to a fire, flood and illness. Once I have helped someone I feel I have made a freind and there are freinds I haven't met yet.
As everyone is welcome here, when those off handed insults start, they are aimed at freinds of mine and it pisses me off.


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## Chris

I just wish everyone else in America could be forced to pay what I am paying for healthcare just to see how it feels. I am paying more for healthcare than a mortgage. It's easy to say how great things are when they are not effecting you personally. I am paying almost 15% of my gross income to a healthcare policy before any copay or costs are incurred. Put yourself in my shoes for a minute.


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## oldognewtrick

I usually find when someone starts attacking someone personally instead of debating the issue its because they have a position they can't defend. I take it with a grain of salt. 

As someone said once, sticks and stones can hurt, words can't. 

If we can keep this civil, we'll keep it open. Personal attacks from anyone will not be tolerated.


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## havasu

On a side note, when I retired, I lost my dental insurance. The gal from Human Resources gave me a great tip which may help others in the same predicament. Costco Members (currently only in California, but is expanding rapidly!) have an option to purchase Delta Dental HMO or PPO Insurance at a fraction of the cost for an individual rate, because you are grouped with all other members. I pay $90 a year for a solo plan, but the family plan was about $190, for the entire family. This includes 2 teeth cleaning trips, and massive discounts on any and all other major treatments. 

I also don't know for sure, but was told Sam's Club offers a similar program. Just check around before paying out the big bucks!


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## nealtw

Chris said:


> I just wish everyone else in America could be forced to pay what I am paying for healthcare just to see how it feels. I am paying more for healthcare than a mortgage. It's easy to say how great things are when they are not effecting you personally. I am paying almost 15% of my gross income to a healthcare policy before any copay or costs are incurred. Put yourself in my shoes for a minute.



We can put ourselves on your shoes and understand it hurts.
I read this somewhere.

*They Tax everything here and you have to pay to use a restroom at most major places. We have to pay to drive on some of the busiest highways around.
*

These are fixed  taxes, work out the percentage of your income for that, then figure it out for someone trying to feed a family at $20,000. Do you understand?


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## havasu

Neal, I seemed to always get into an argument with my brother in law when we discussed wages and benefits for government workers. He was disgusted to find out how much I receive in retirement and my medical benefits. I told him I worked long and hard for my position, and went to 5 years of college to be able to earn what I did. I told him if he didn't smoke dope through his teen years while flipping burgers at Mcdonald's, maybe he too might be making more money. 

For the unfortunate folks that fell on hardship, I do have compassion. For the lazy asses who never even tried to apply themselves to better their careers, well, I have no compassion and I sure as hell don't think that I should help carry them, since they don't carry themselves.


----------



## nealtw

oldognewtrick said:


> I usually find when someone starts attacking someone personally instead of debating the issue its because they have a position they can't defend. I take it with a grain of salt.
> 
> As someone said once, sticks and stones can hurt, words can't.
> 
> If we can keep this civil, we'll keep it open. Personal attacks from anyone will not be tolerated.



Don't kid yourself; names do hurt and people are turned off and leave, I know that because I have been told by people leaving.
I would put Chris's taxes including healthcare % up against a low wage earners % any day,
Implying that some don't pay there share hasn't got a background in thoughtful fact checking. And I think it is crap.


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## oldognewtrick

I understand what you're saying Neal, but when I buy groceries, gas, electric, clothes, etc I pay what everyone else pays. When I buy health ins it's based on my income. Should I pay more for groceries, that's more important than health ins.


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## Chris

I do understand and all those things I mentioned over there are avoidable. If 23 dollars a month covers insurance if you make 20k a year than 23 a month should also cover my insurance? Just like with auto, home, life or any other insurance out there they don't base it off your income. The only reason they would base it off income is to see if they feel you can afford more and pay more than someone else. Trust me I do agree that it would be nice for everyone to be able to afford health care but I don't agree that I should pay more than someone else because I have strived for a better living. It might be different where you live but here in CA this is the land of opportunity, you can be anything you want to be. It is very simple to make a good living here. my nephew washes buses for 30k a year and he is still in high school. I totally understand if there is a health issue for why you can't work but for the most part people are abled but not willing. Take my friend, he is 36 years old and makes less than 20k a year and is on all the government assistance there is and complains he can't find a job but not once in the last year has he left the house in search for work. 

Like I said I agree Insurance should be affordable but by making it affordable to the poor they are making it not affordable to the working class. My wife works full time and doesn't even bring home enough to cover the daycare and health insurance, i float her car payment and fuel because that is cheaper than paying for the health insurance and having her sit at home raising the kids.

I just feel like I am being penalized for saving and doing things right in life.


----------



## frodo

what has my wife and i worried is the health care site.  It has been said by the people that run the site. it is not safe from hackers,  has never been safe. and has been hacked already. . That on top of the IRS being in charge of the whole thing.  has us. opting to pay the fine,  instead of signing up for their health care.  In hopes. It will fall in on itself next year.  If it does not.  we will bite the bullet, sign up.   and take our chances . Fingers crossed


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## Chris

I did the math, 23 a month for my friend and his family from the ACA is just over 1% of his annual income. I would be ok with giving 5%.

Heck I would be ok with a flat tax for it I guess to. We can all pay 5%?


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## frodo

I would be ok with 15% flat tax for everything.  state,fed, fica, aca,  and sales tax



edited in,,,  that ALL Americans pay the same thing, NO carve outs for ANYONE

that includes the  president all the way down the chain of command to the dishwasher


----------



## zannej

havasu, thanks for that tip. There is no Costco in my state, but I'll see about Sam's Club. I know that the only good dentist in town doesn't take Medicare/Medicaid (I always get the two confused). 

oldog, I have a policy to not devolve into ad hominem arguments, although I have been amused when I've been debating with people I don't know and they start name-calling. I recently played a little game with a troll on another forum where I countered his argument with logic and used his own words against him and he apparently had such a hissy in reply that the admins deleted his post and banned him from the forum. 

Anyway, I think another problem is that we have generations of people who are being taught that they should depend on the government to take care of them. Look at what happened to the Philippines after the US let them have control back. The people were being taken care of and supported financially by the US but they wanted their independence. Once they got it, they didn't know how to take care of themselves and their economy really took a dive.

So some people are not even being taught how to provide for themselves and are not being encouraged to do so. Another thing we need to revamp is the education system. We need to make it more about being able to go out in the world and join the workforce instead of preparing for the next level of school. Children need to start learning practical things from an early age. They need basic life skills to be taught because its obvious that a lot of parents aren't doing that. But then, there is the problem of how to pay for it all and also, how to get the system revised. The government really shouldn't be having to play the part of the parents-- so I think there also needs to be more training/education for parents on how to teach their children to be self sufficient while still providing necessary support and love.

There are so many changes that need to be made in our country and I know none of them can happen overnight. 

And now I'm just rambling on... 

Oh, and Chris, I hope that you can find a good chiropractor that also has massage therapy as part of the treatment. That can help with the pain. Hot tubs and swimming pools will also help to take some of the pressure off.

Speaking of the penalty fee for not having insurance, my mother got something in the mail saying the government was going to bill her because my brother and I are in her household. I went on the healthcare.gov site and put in my info and it said I was not eligible for any of the government plans. Then it gave me a list of insurance companies and such that I could try to get plans with, but they all had ridiculously high premiums and deductibles. Unless something catastrophic happened, I would not be able to meet the deductibles. The only benefit I would gain would be to have the insurance company negotiate the prices down, but then the premiums would pretty much nullify any monetary savings.


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## Chris

I'd go for that myself. I just paid 44% last year.


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## nealtw

Chris said:


> I did the math, 23 a month for my friend and his family from the ACA is just over 1% of his annual income. I would be ok with giving 5%.
> 
> Heck I would be ok with a flat tax for it I guess to. We can all pay 5%?



No you don't understand.
add your income tax and health care and road toles and toilet charges and any other fixed taxes you have and add them up a figure that %
Then do that for lower income people that live near you and have the same daily charges
Flat tax only hurts the poor. Don't forget they don't get to write off the truck and fuel, telephones etc.


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## nealtw

We see it here where the prices in the city are comparible to NY or LA and the low wage earners live in the suburbs. Instead of raising the taxes to pay for the new bridge they got investers to pay for it and they placed a tole on it. $6 per day out of a day that some earn less than $70 a day. That's a 10% increase in cost of living over night


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## nealtw

oldognewtrick said:


> I understand what you're saying Neal, but when I buy groceries, gas, electric, clothes, etc I pay what everyone else pays. When I buy health ins it's based on my income. Should I pay more for groceries, that's more important than health ins.



And the poorer you are those questions get bigger.


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## Chris

Here you are not forced to use the toll lanes or toll roads, they just save you time if you use them, you can not figure that in to the cost of living because it is easily avoided, same with pay bathrooms, all avoidable. You don't need to own a car, there is public transportation everywhere around here. Lifes luxuries should never be included in the cost of living. Sure I can spend 50 bucks a day and drive my truck to LA or I can spend 4 bucks and take the train.

Instead of raising their tax percentage to meet mine why not lower mine to meet theirs? If they are paying 12% of their income and I am paying 44% of mine obviously they can not afford to pay 44% of theirs, what makes you or anyone else think I can afford it? It hurts me and my family just as much as it does theirs. I live paycheck to paycheck just like them, If I didn't have a company to help me out and borrow from that I would be having the same problems. Thinking that raising taxes for the middle class is going to help anything is wrong.

 By bringing my take home earnings down to the same level as someone making 20k a year the only thing you will do is kill that drive I have to succeed. If I can to the bare minimum and have the same as I have now than why do I loose sleep keeping up with what I have? Why would I even think of trying to do better if it is only to benifit someone else?


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## nealtw

So back to my point. You have a problem the Gov. and how they set up the ACA, shouldn't be at different site.
Should I not say how I feel, When I think if nothing is said people coming here will think we all beleive like you do.
Have a look around we have people having trouble buying houses for $30K we have no idea of their story but should they be made to feel like second class citizens.
That is an easy, yes or no.


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## frodo

so, what your saying is  Frodo makes  $10.00 hr.   at $400.00  each week [usd]  
if he paid a flat tax of 15% that would be.  $60.00 [usd]  each week.  correct?

years back, I made $  400.00 per week  and Uncle same and state relieved me of 25%  each week. $100.00  even

seems if frodo paid a 15%  flat tax he would be better off not worse

correct?


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## nealtw

Chris said:


> Here you are not forced to use the toll lanes or toll roads, they just save you time if you use them, you can not figure that in to the cost of living because it is easily avoided, same with pay bathrooms, all avoidable. You don't need to own a car, there is public transportation everywhere around here. Lifes luxuries should never be included in the cost of living. Sure I can spend 50 bucks a day and drive my truck to LA or I can spend 4 bucks and take the train.
> 
> Instead of raising their tax percentage to meet mine why not lower mine to meet theirs? If they are paying 12% of their income and I am paying 44% of mine obviously they can not afford to pay 44% of theirs, what makes you or anyone else think I can afford it? It hurts me and my family just as much as it does theirs. I live paycheck to paycheck just like them, If I didn't have a company to help me out and borrow from that I would be having the same problems. Thinking that raising taxes for the middle class is going to help anything is wrong.
> 
> By bringing my take home earnings down to the same level as someone making 20k a year the only thing you will do is kill that drive I have to succeed. If I can to the bare minimum and have the same as I have now than why do I loose sleep keeping up with what I have? Why would I even think of trying to do better if it is only to benifit someone else?



See with just a little thought you figured out there is no real way to compare your expences with some one at a different level.
I understand and am well aware that the middle class hasn't really had a raise in 25 years
The last statement youi made here is exactly how some one is thinking when they don't make any effort to get ahead. So you do understand.:beer:


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> so, what your saying is  Frodo makes  $10.00 hr.   at $400.00  each week [usd]
> if he paid a flat tax of 15% that would be.  $60.00 [usd]  each week.  correct?
> 
> years back, I made $  400.00 per week  and Uncle same and state relieved me of 25%  each week. $100.00  even
> 
> seems if frodo paid a 15%  flat tax he would be better off not worse
> 
> correct?



I still think that's a fair arguement but not here.


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## zannej

Samwise took 25% of Frodo's cheese each week? Filthy hobbitses! 
(sorry, couldn't help myself)


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## Chris

nealtw said:


> See with just a little thought you figured out there is no real way to compare your expences with some one at a different level.
> I understand and am well aware that the middle class hasn't really had a raise in 25 years
> The last statement youi made here is exactly how some one is thinking when they don't make any effort to get ahead. So you do understand.:beer:




My expenses far exceed someone who makes less but it is not by my choice. I have always known that. Are you saying that to truly succeed in America I need to just give up and get a minimum wage job? That way I won't dislike the government and I can get something that someone else is forced to pay for? Thats about the same mentality that my friend has that won't look for work. If everyone feels that way this country will never get any better. 

Remember I grew up with nothing I ate top ramen and boiled chicken for years, the one thing my family never had and we were proud of was government assistance in any way. We struggled for everything and we also knew that if we didn't work for it that it wasn't ours. We took pride in what we had and didn't foolishly spend our money, we never went out to eat or bought things we didn't need. We lived on far less than 20k a year. I made a choice in life to not raise my kids that way so I worked my *** off and now I am being punished for it by having most everything I work for taken from me to pay for someone else like you say that doesn't want to make that jump and do better for themselves. We all live in America, the land of the free, you can be anything you want to be here.


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## nealtw

I think you should fight for or argur for anything you think is right, that is freedom of speech and the right to vote.
Have you been to the politcal forums, do you want this site to look that?

Are you here to mentor?

Should others feeling be considered?

As a mod.  your opinion does reflect on the site


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## Chris

I don't go to political sites at all. Never been to one. This was just my little venting about paying so much for health insurance and I have tried to keep it on that topic but that topic includes many other topics, much of which you have brought up.

I don't see how it hurts someones feeling that I am being forced to pay more than someone else? If someone is upset because someone else makes more money than them I am sorry for that.

Everyone talks about things needing to be more fair but when they do they are talking about being more fair to them and not whoever that fairness is truly effecting.

By making healthcare fair and affordable to a certain group it is making it unfair and not affordable to another group. This is what you keep saying is the right thing to do.

If anyone else has a problem with this thread being here I will delete it immediately.


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## zannej

I think it is an interesting and informative thread. I've learned some things and it is good to see other points of view on matters without it devolving into namecalling and such.


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## bud16415

When I was in Mexico We drove between two cities about 100 miles and we took the new express road. I didn&#8217;t really know what was going on and sat back to see the country side. We went thru a toll booth and took off the toll seemed kind of high but the road was beautiful and brand new and smooth as silk traveling thru the wild lands. Beside this modern highway was a dirt road the service road used to build the road was my thoughts and full of dust and holes and on that road was bumper to bumper traffic. We were flying past all these old cars at 90MPH and I asked the driver what&#8217;s with all these cars on the dirt road where are they going? Answer same place we are. He said when they opened the new road the toll was about 5 bucks but that was a day&#8217;s pay for most and people wouldn&#8217;t pay it except us few rich gringos. Honestly I didn&#8217;t see one other car on the new road the whole trip. He said the road wasn&#8217;t paying for itself so they raised it to 10 bucks and then fewer people used it so they lost more money. To fix the problem they raised it to 20 bucks and now fewer still so it went to 40 and on and on. I forget what we ended up paying for the whole length but it was like 6 month&#8217;s pay for the average guy if he used it. So everyone went on the dirt road. There was talk of closing the new road as the government was losing so much money. It was clear to see if they charged 20 cents to ride on the road and everyone that was on the dirt road came up on the highway they would be making more money than could ever need. 

The same thing applies to Chris. He is playing by the rules and creating jobs. Every job he makes gives the government a new tax payer. Every time he expands his private business he is making wealth for himself yes but he is also helping the country along with helping the families he is employing. Every time he has to back away from expanding and growing and conserve funds to pay for his ever increasing personal burden he is reducing the number of people that are paying taxes. Assuming all small business is feeling this as well the person he didn&#8217;t hire is also not working for someone else and is relying on some sort of aid thus raising the demand on what Chris has to now pay. If the person he didn&#8217;t hire now finds a job outside the private sector and works for the government where does the money come to pay that guy. Yep from Chris. 
Those of you that build houses who are you selling them to? People that are working. The more money that stays in the hands of the guy that earns it is going to be spent. Money is only good when it is moving the faster it is moving the better everything is. When you suck it off into a black hole it stops moving or it stops moving in your local area. There is no longer a fixed amount of money flowing around a circle in the pipeline. It slows down for the above reason, so in a ill-advised way they try and stimulate it to get it moving by printing more money and injecting it into the system. What happens in a closed hydraulic circuit when you add more fluid to a system that is full? Something has to inflate. When you add one dollar that doesn&#8217;t belong every other dollar in the system just got worth a little bit less. That is the tax Chris doesn&#8217;t even know he&#8217;s paying. 

Maybe the system should be you reward the guy that&#8217;s hiring a person. Most people like Chris are not asking for a reward they just want equal. They just want a profit so they can &#8220;A&#8221; feel like it pays to do what they are doing, &#8220;B&#8221; can see something nice they can do or provide for their family, &#8220;C&#8221; they can reinvest and grow their business and hire another tax payer.


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## nealtw

I wouldn't want it removed either way. I would just as soon show people that they can complain if the don't like something. And it never got to mean and nasty and we'll remain freinds.


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## oldognewtrick

Spot on Bud!!!


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## Chris

Thanks Neal and very well said Bud! That is pretty much how I feel. It just feels as the better I do the more I have to give away. I really really need two more employees right now but insurance and taxes do make it difficult to do. There is regulation everywhere in being a small business and I have learned that I am guilty until proven innocent.

I just bought my new house and it was a 30 day struggle proving to the banks that I even have a job. I run my business on the up and up, I don't hide or cheat anything and I pay myself with a paycheck just like any other employed person. The government has made lending rules so that I can not use my current years income to qualify for a home loan. I kept getting told as a business owner I am probably making things up to buy a home and i constantly had to keep proving myself. What kind of country is this where trying to get ahead is a crime?


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## nealtw

Chris said:


> Thanks Neal and very well said Bud! That is pretty much how I feel. It just feels as the better I do the more I have to give away. I really really need two more employees right now but insurance and taxes do make it difficult to do. There is regulation everywhere in being a small business and I have learned that I am guilty until proven innocent.
> 
> I just bought my new house and it was a 30 day struggle proving to the banks that I even have a job. I run my business on the up and up, I don't hide or cheat anything and I pay myself with a paycheck just like any other employed person. The government has made lending rules so that I can not use my current years income to qualify for a home loan. I kept getting told as a business owner I am probably making things up to buy a home and i constantly had to keep proving myself. What kind of country is this where trying to get ahead is a crime?


Bin there done that, If you have incorperated the business just tell them you work there. If you need a letter from your employer, have the accountant write it.


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## bud16415

It&#8217;s only a ten second video, but worth a watch

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ixNPplo-SU[/ame]


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## Chris

In response to Buds post.  Back in december my CPA calls me up and says "Chris you need to spend some money" Now My company did not have a whole lot but we had been saving all year and I was faced with an ultimatum, either I buy some new equipment that we did not need at the time or give away over 40% of the businesses profit to taxes. My goal was to have a little nest so I don't have to stress about payroll and all the other costs to run a business. I spent about half of what we had saved up and got taxed on the rest so I got to keep about 28% of what I had in the beginning of December. Then two weeks later Work comp decided they were going to up their costs and I can barely afford the bill. It's just hard to run a business and get ahead in this country.


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## Chris

nealtw said:


> Bin there done that, If you have incorperated the business just tell them you work there. If you need a letter from your employer, have the accountant write it.



Tried all that, my last year tax return showed business profit on there so they wouldn't believe me. I got through it but it was difficult.


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## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> Its only a ten second video, but worth a watch
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ixNPplo-SU



Now you have invited someone to dissagree


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## nealtw

Chris said:


> Tried all that, my last year tax return showed business profit on there so they wouldn't believe me. I got through it but it was difficult.



I forgot, corporation are people too.:banana::banana::banana:


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> I forgot, corporation are people too.:banana::banana::banana:



And People are People
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_3GQu7dm-I[/ame]


----------



## Chris

I just wanted to add that I went to Costcos website today like Havasu mentioned and signed up for dental insurance for my whole family for 200 a year.


----------



## nealtw

There is no way I will look at what I was paying 20 years ago, I will be sick for a week.


----------



## havasu

Chris said:


> I just wanted to add that I went to Costcos website today like Havasu mentioned and signed up for dental insurance for my whole family for 200 a year.



Now that is two beers you owe me! :beer:


----------



## slownsteady

If I had to quote every post that I wanted to comment on, this post would be three pages long. So I&#8217;ll just try to hit some points that I read along the way.

Chris wouldn't mind paying the same rate as everyone else pays for healthcare; good point, who would want to pay more? But that leads us around to the Single-Payer system, which Congress and the Insurance Industry screamed about every time it was mentioned. And that's why the ACA had to become such an ugly hybrid.

We are standing on the edge of a world where machines can do most (all?) of the work, yet we still live with an economy that is based on human labor. Incomes are all screwed up. Finding enough jobs for the population is nearly impossible (ask any recent college grad). The global economy sucks the menial jobs overseas. What happens when those sick, hungry poor people get fed up with the system? If the system doesn&#8217;t take care of them they will turn against it.

An open market would inspire competition among insurance companies: Yes, and so would taking away the incentives for companies to provide health insurance. Your health insurance would not be based on your employment - would not have to change when you change jobs - would not be dictated by what your boss can afford.The Ins companies would have to compete in the retail market, instead of the deeper pockets that business has.

Someone compared healthcare costs ten years ago to costs now. Great! While you&#8217;re at it roll back the price of gas to where it was when I first started driving.


----------



## slownsteady

BTW: Reagan being considered the second coming of the lord, is a myth.  :banana::banana::


----------



## zannej

Chris, is that Costco dental plan thing only for California? I briefly googled it and saw something about it being in California.

I didn't find anything about Sam's Club and dental. Bummer.


----------



## oldognewtrick

http://www.deltadentalins.com/


----------



## nealtw

Delta has list of other states they are in at the bottom of this page.
http://www.deltadentalins.com/


----------



## zannej

Boo. They don't have anything in my area. Not surprising though, if you look at the teeth (or lack thereof) on some of the people around here.


----------



## nunyabiz1

bud16415 said:


> Its only a ten second video, but worth a watch
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ixNPplo-SU



Actually REAGAN was and still is our problem.
Deregulation and trickle down nonsense has utterly destroyed the economy.
If you look at where it all went horribly wrong on ANY chart it starts in 1980.

For the past 100 years the economy under Democratic presidents has outperformed the economy's under "Republican" presidents every time.

http://www.voxeu.org/article/us-economy-performs-better-under-democratic-presidents-why

Now of course there is only about 2 people on this thread that will agree or understand what the below video is saying.
Reason being is that today we as a country are just as divided if not more so than we were during the civil war, and the main reason for that is the MEDIA and the main reason for the media being like they are today is of course like everything else that has gone wrong in the past 30+ years, REAGAN.

http://www.newsfocus.org/media_coup.htm

Thus we currently have about half the entire country because of Media fueled lies that fully believe all kinds of utter nonsense and there is no possible way to reach that 50%.  I would have better luck talking to my Chihuahua about the economy, medical cost and what can be done about it.
Sadly that 50% vote and here we are. 
Depending on what happens in 2016 you may be looking back to 2014 with dewy-eyed fondness.




[ame="http://vimeo.com/19635232"]http://vimeo.com/19635232[/ame]


As for a flat tax, flat tax would be fantastic for about 5% of the population, the rest of us would pay higher taxes, those that could afford it the least would pay the most.  Flat-rate tax would work well if everyone made the same-amount or at least close to the same amount of income
The US has the highest wealth inequality in the world.
The top 5% make roughly 62-65% of every single dollar earned in this country, why should someone that earns less than 1% of the wealth pay even 10% let alone 15-20% which most flat tax bills say?
The less the bottom 95% have to spend the worse the economy will become.
People that make less than $50,000 a year largely spend every single dime of it on mostly necessities AND usually go into debt on top of that.
Very rarely does a Billionaire spend a Billion the rest sits in the bank or some overseas account.


----------



## frodo

michael moore / BOYCOT ALL HIS FILMS


----------



## Chris

Micheal Moore is the last person I will listen to for anything.

I still am baffled on how you think it is ok for someone to have to pay a higher percentage because they make more money. That seems like take from the rich and give to the poor. It is not a case of being able to survive on the larger amount of money. Like it has been stated several times in this thread, the more you take from the ones employing the nation the less they will employ and the less they will spend thus ruining any sort of trickle down. If I was taxed less I would spend more money, plain and simple.

That and just like Frodo said you are already paying more than the 5-15% flat tax rate now. 

Imagine if you had worked your *** off your entire life and became a success, you are now making a million a year, you are donating 40% to charities and investing some and using some to build your company larger and employ more people, then the government says hey we need you to pay five times the percentage of someone else, there is nothing you can do about it so you stop donating to charities all together and put less into your company and maybe lay off a few hundred people who now have no jobs. You just added  a few hundred people to the government assistance program.


Take Home Depot and the ACA. I had a good buddy that worked there and was technically part time yet working 40+ hours a week. The government gave them an ultimatum and said you either need to give healthcare to all these people or cut there hours to 29 or less. Guess what the smart business decision was that screwed thousands of people nationwide? They cut all those people down to 29 hours. Not because they wanted to but because paying for healthcare for all those people puts a huge burden on a company and could potentially put them out of business. You can blame the business all you want for this but it is only a reaction to what the government is putting in force.


----------



## slownsteady

This topic has strayed a little from healthcare, and I know it's all related. But here's a little video that might be interesting right about now:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM[/ame]


----------



## bud16415

Nice clip from Michael Moore&#8217;s for profit movie. You could also look to Saul Alinsky for information to post or give us George Soros take on making money. 
From CNBC  far cry from FOX News the &#8220;Brainwashing Network&#8221;
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101264757
More
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...ome-taxes-bottom-40-paid-91-got-average-18950
http://www.ntu.org/foundation/page/who-pays-income-taxes

http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/top10-percent-income-earners

From the Horse&#8217;s Mouth
http://www.cbo.gov/publication/44604

Neal said corporations are people to. Many are. 
http://taxfoundation.org/blog/new-cbo-projections-understate-average-corporate-tax-rate

Most billionaires don&#8217;t park their money in a bank to just pile up there. Most invest it back into growth in what they are doing, or invest in markets where others will put it to work creating jobs. It is sad the places allowing the freedom to do that have to be overseas many times. 
Unless you are talking about old money and guys like John Kerry and his $200,000,000 plus nest egg. 
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/john-kerry-200-million-secretary-state

In closing I will say.
I never got a job from a poor person.


----------



## oldognewtrick

What about a comparison chart of who actually pays taxes?


----------



## Chris

Bud the problem is, no matter how many times you prove the truth many will never believe it.


----------



## zannej

I don't care how much money a person makes, it is just absurd for someone to be expected to pay 50% of their income in taxes. Aside from say actors who get paid millions per episode, generally people who work in a business where they get $1million per year are having to spend a lot of money investing and keeping businesses running so their expenses are MUCH higher.


----------



## bud16415

oldognewtrick said:


> What about a comparison chart of who actually pays taxes?




Click any one of the links I posted. The first one has a great news video to watch. I could have linked 500 more.


----------



## Chris

It kills that drive to want to do better.

This is from my personal experience and only from my personal experience. People that generally lean more towards the right are ones who save as much as they can, work hard, invest and want to keep what they have and don't expect anything to be given to them no matter what their income is. People that lean to the left are ones that do not save, frivolously spend, do the bare minimum and will jump on any free handout available. Now remember this is only from what I see locally with people I know or meet so don't take it personally, it may be different with you or people you know.

I watched both those videos and the reagan one I can not comment on because I was young then and I have not researched it enough to have an opinion.

The other video sounds to me like someone is jealous or whining that someone has more than someone else.

Instead of redistribution of wealth why not take that guy from the far left of the screen and have him go to school or learn a trade (All of which are free if you qualify) and get a better job, work hard and give 110% then next thing you know he will start moving towards the right side of the screen. It's pretty simple. Work hard and do what it takes to succeed and you will succeed, hell we don't live in Cuba. This is America for god sake you can be anything you want to be, it's really pretty simple. I am an uneducated idiot and I do ok.


----------



## slownsteady

> Instead of redistribution of wealth why not take that guy from the far left of the screen and have him go to school or learn a trade (All of which are free if you qualify) and get a better job, work hard and give 110% then next thing you know he will start moving towards the right side of the screen. It's pretty simple. Work hard and do what it takes to succeed and you will succeed, hell we don't live in Cuba. This is America for god sake you can be anything you want to be, it's really pretty simple. I am an uneducated idiot and I do ok.


I wish it was that simple. There are so many factors involved in success. Consider yourself lucky as well as hard-working. 
And you don't know if that guy all the way over on the left is educated or not.


----------



## slownsteady

Oh, and don't forget; that guy's trade school or education is also under attack from the same reasons that nobody with money wants to pay for him to learn......................................


----------



## bud16415

I am a big believer in changing the graph SNS posted and as much as I hate the term redistribution a redistributed graph would be an excellent thing. 

It boils down to how you want to make that graph change. One method is to take more from the richer and just give it to the poorer. That method is widely in place and some would like to see that expanded because being wealthy &#8220;is a Bad thing&#8221;. Zannej is on the right track perhaps. When some actor or RAP singer gets $10,000,000 for a movie or a song they should make them pay it all in taxes except maybe $20,000. And those Sharks on that TV show should have most of their money taken away because all they are doing with it is helping people start and grow new companies. What a joke sure the people end up rich but you know what those Dirty Sharks end up getting richer too. 

Hmm wait a minute on that Shark show when the sharks help those people out they are like the people on the left side of SNS&#8217;s graph at the beginning of the show but after they partner with the sharks for a year or so they end up being over on the side of the graph where it&#8217;s going up the hill. &#8220;Huh&#8221; how about that Hey and when they move over there that&#8217;s one less on the poor side. WAIT not one less because I have watched the Shark Tank quite a few times and they show where these people were working in their garage making something and after getting with the sharks they show them in a new place working. Some place like Neal built and Oldog put the roof on and Holy Smokes there are like ten other people working there also. I bet the Shark and the Dude that went on the show hired those people and they have jobs now also. Well they didn&#8217;t get as far to the right as the guy that had the idea but they moved over some anyway and got that poor side of that graph looking a little better. 
Hmmm I wonder if that&#8217;s what that guy meant when he said &#8220;A rising tide lifts all ships.&#8221;  
I know on TV they call them Sharks but I think they also call them Venture Capitalist.
Wait just one dog gone minute wasn&#8217;t that guy Mitt Romney one of those guys. I didn&#8217;t know he was a Shark they told me on TV he was a One Percenter and a Dirty scoundrel that wanted to make more poor people not less, and something about he didn&#8217;t smoke or drink or take drugs or stuff like that. 
Well the country isn&#8217;t in great shape maybe but at least we didn&#8217;t get a weirdo like him in there. 

By the way I was wondering what it takes to be a One Percenter? Huh says $135,000 a year gets you there. 
http://www.theatlantic.com/business...-percentof-every-age-group-in-america/382094/


----------



## bud16415

slownsteady said:


> Oh, and don't forget; that guy's trade school or education is also under attack from the same reasons that nobody with money wants to pay for him to learn......................................




 Of course I dont want to pay for someone to learn a trade well maybe my kid or someone I like I might pay to help. But you know what when I was 17 years old and 2 days out of high school one of the ten largest companies in the world (yes an evil multinational company)took a chance on me and allowed me to join their 4 year apprentice program. They also paid any and all tuition for as long as I wanted to keep going to school and then provided me with 43 years of good employment and even healthcare. In exchange they got a great return on the investment of the 100s and 100s of apprentices they hired. At the time I only saw it from my side but looking back they did it for Evil self-serving reasons. They wanted to have the best workforce they could have producing the best products they could put in the market so yes they could turn the biggest of profits and reluctantly pay their taxes. Worked pretty good for a long time and then it seemed they didnt like paying all those taxes and some place offered them to come and pay less taxes or no taxes but they knew the company would lift their people up like they did me.


----------



## Chris

slownsteady said:


> I wish it was that simple. There are so many factors involved in success. Consider yourself lucky as well as hard-working.
> And you don't know if that guy all the way over on the left is educated or not.



I am also not educated, I dropped out of high school the beginning of my second year, I just about failed every class I went through from elementary to high school. I dropped out, I did drugs, I drank a lot. I did nothing right but I had a job, a full time job and that was only because I liked to eat and needed to pay bills, It wasn't til my early twenties when I pulled my head out of my *** and and realised what I had to do. It was just taught to me that I had to work. I was still a typical loser teenager. If I could do it anyone can. I ruined my credit at 18 as well so bad I couldn't finance a pack of bubble gum until I was 27. Trust me when I say i grew up with those people at the far left of the poor graph, that was my family and friends, i have seen it all first hand and I have seen the mentality people get when they are there. I grew up with those families where the parents are doing drugs on the coffee table in front of the kids, that was our lifestyle. Most all of my friends found a way to get out and be successful, some did not. I know exactly what is possible and what is not.


----------



## frodo

my first years as an adult mirror Chris's.  head up my ***, getting high and drinking.
BUT,  I had a strong desire to eat.  So, I worked every day for a master plumber who taught me my trade.
this is how my check broke down ever week
received $150..
pd $60.00 for rent
pd $20.00  for gas
pd  $15 for smokes
buy a dozen eggs,loaf bread, jar of peanut butter. $20--$30.





I did not have food stamps, or any type of assistance,  If i did not work i did not eat,  or have a place to stay.

What everyone needs to realise, when you are motivated by hunger,  you work.
if food and shelter is given to you, you sit on your dead *** and play viddddeo games

that is human nature.


----------



## bud16415

I&#8217;m a guy that likes to look at all issues from all sides and then try and apply some logic to what I find out and I&#8217;m ever aware that perception is many times others reality. Perception has been my reality also. The old saying is based around that, &#8220;If you are in your 20&#8217;s and not a Democrat you don&#8217;t have a heart and if you are in your 40&#8217;s and not a Republican you don&#8217;t have a brain.&#8221;

I have watched all the Michael Moore movies and I would suggest others do as well. I wouldn&#8217;t go as far as buying one of them but now that they are in the dollar bin why not. Watching them with an open mind will allow your perception of your own truth to be strengthened. You could lock me in a room for a month watching his films and I wouldn&#8217;t change my perception as I think most thinking people wouldn&#8217;t . I watch a magician trying to see how he makes the woman float in the air not because I believe she is really floating in the air. 

One thing I notice in all his self-narrated movies and I also noticed it in the clip SNS posted the narration to me talks down to me like I&#8217;m a mindless sponge that needs to be told what my perception should be. The information in the short clip was most likely factual but the process of presenting it was leading you down the primrose path of where they wanted your perception to end up. Wouldn&#8217;t it be great if at the end they said what can we do as a people to lift the left side of the screen up rather than dwelling on lowering the right side down. 

Chris just very elegantly explained his story (as did Frodo) and it was a story about raising just one guy on the left side of the screen up and doing it without the help of the government or anyone on the right going down. He said more in one paragraph, that was more of a game plan for a young person reading this thread than watching a 100  Michael Moore movies could do for them.

In the 60&#8217;s and 70&#8217;s it was all about the man holding you down and controlling you and the solution was to &#8220;find yourself&#8221; I always heard. Everyone was going someplace in a van to find themselves. My dad said something one day teasing why I wasn&#8217;t out &#8220;Finding myself&#8221;? I told him oh I was I have been finding myself at 7:00am every morning standing in front of a turret lathe and finding myself every night at 8:00 pm in a class room trying to stay awake.


----------



## frodo

why does everyone think the government owes them an education?



this is all the gubment "owes" as far as I know

http://screencast.com/t/VeXbCTrRFqdc

I do not have a college education, but the term general welfare, does not equate to education
General welfare is more on the line with food stamps.


----------



## slownsteady

frodo said:


> why does everyone think the government owes them an education?
> 
> 
> 
> this is all the gubment "owes" as far as I know
> 
> http://screencast.com/t/VeXbCTrRFqdc
> 
> I do not have a college education, but the term general welfare, does not equate to education
> General welfare is more on the line with food stamps.



Who owns the school that you went to? Elementary school, not talking about college. And who's equating welfare & education? Not me.


----------



## slownsteady

Don't get wrong. I'm not defending the lazy. I wish your successes on everybody. But there are so many other factors. And not everybody at the bottom of the food chain is lazy. You guys are casting a very wide net (a.k.a. generalizing).

Bud: your story illustrates the model of America that we all like to remember. But that model doesn't really exist anymore. The MBAs from Wharton and other "Business Schools" have ensured that. Employees aren't valued anymore. Most every business wants the other guy to develop talent, then they hire that person away (I am also generalizing, but there are few examples of good companies left). And there are plenty of experienced, qualified people out there who can't find work. We only need so many toilet-scrubbers.


----------



## slownsteady

I wasn't aware that the 'wealth' clip came from Michael Moore. It was emailed to me from a bonafide conservative friend of mine from CA.


----------



## havasu

slownsteady said:


> I wasn't aware that the 'wealth' clip came from Michael Moore. It was emailed to me from a bonafide conservative friend of mine from CA.



Maybe as a joke?


----------



## Chris

Was it you?


----------



## havasu

Hell no! I refuse to watch anything that fat Communist says.


----------



## frodo

He is boycotted around here.  I dont care if his programs are free.  they go in the burn barrel

right along with Jim carry,Shania Twain,kevin bacon,mat damon,mark wahlburg,danny devito,sean connery [ hate that, i like his work], a, schwartsniger,s. stallone,

burn barrel celebrities. do not get my money


----------



## bud16415

slownsteady said:


> Don't get wrong. I'm not defending the lazy. I wish your successes on everybody. But there are so many other factors. And not everybody at the bottom of the food chain is lazy. You guys are casting a very wide net (a.k.a. generalizing).
> 
> Bud: your story illustrates the model of America that we all like to remember. But that model doesn't really exist anymore. The MBAs from Wharton and other "Business Schools" have ensured that. Employees aren't valued anymore. Most every business wants the other guy to develop talent, then they hire that person away (I am also generalizing, but there are few examples of good companies left). And there are plenty of experienced, qualified people out there who can't find work. We only need so many toilet-scrubbers.


 
It exists fine how can you say that one of the members here is a young guy trying to live the dream and doing it despite the road blocks. Correct me if Im wrong Chris but I dont think he has any Wharton Grads on his payroll. 

Small business is what is responsible for any growth we are seeing. 

You and I live in the NE where we tax companies to death. Go take a look at Texas to see what happens when government gets out of the way.


----------



## frodo

bud16415 said:


> It exists fine how can you say that one of the members here is a young guy trying to live the dream and doing it despite the road blocks. Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong Chris but I don&#8217;t think he has any Wharton Grads on his payroll.
> 
> Small business is what is responsible for any growth we are seeing.
> 
> You and I live in the NE where we tax companies to death. Go take a look at Texas to see what happens when government gets out of the way.




Agree,  smaller government,  less regulation,  causes small business to grow.

as far as the BA's out of work.  cross train, should have learned a trade instead of language and drama,  or mass media   or other useless degrees

I hired a day laborer in Florida that was a Mechanical Engineer.  do what you gotta do


figured i was stick this little bit of wisdom in here,  no charge,  its free


my advice to an unemployed person.  looking for a job, is your job.  and you are expected to be working 9 hours a day till you find one


----------



## zannej

Just to clarify in case I was misunderstood, I do not think it is fair for people who make a ton of money to have to pay 50% of their income in taxes. As Bud pointed out, the "sharks" have huge expenses that help start up businesses and create jobs.

I know nothing about Kevin Bacon's politics, but I liked him in "Stir of Echoes". 

Did anyone see that Arnold Schwarzenegger has a thing where if you donate to a charity you can ride in a tank with him and smash things? (I know, completely off topic there, but I thought the little video about it was funny).

I'm too sick to have a well-thought out response to all of this right now.


----------



## slownsteady

bud16415 said:


> It exists fine how can you say that one of the members here is a young guy trying to live the dream and doing it despite the road blocks. Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong Chris but I don&#8217;t think he has any Wharton Grads on his payroll.
> 
> Small business is what is responsible for any growth we are seeing.
> 
> You and I live in the NE where we tax companies to death. Go take a look at Texas to see what happens when government gets out of the way.



I'm not sure I understand your point here, Bud. I was referring to this story (below) about how big business has changed over the years. Those opportunities are very limited these days.



> But you know what when I was 17 years old and 2 days out of high school one of the ten largest companies in the world (yes an evil multinational company)took a chance on me and allowed me to join their 4 year apprentice program. They also paid any and all tuition for as long as I wanted to keep going to school and then provided me with 43 years of good employment and even healthcare.


----------



## Chris

I had one educated guy once. He lasted about a year and then moved on to bigger and better things. Really he only left because he was tired of coming home covered in mud and pooh. He came from a bank to me and then went to an electrical company. We still talk and now he is getting a better education to become a CPA.


----------



## frodo

slownsteady said:


> I'm not sure I understand your point here, Bud. I was referring to this story (below) about how big business has changed over the years. Those opportunities are very limited these days.




I disagree that these opportunities are limited.
opportunity such as that is available to individuals who bust their ***,  strive to grab the brass ring.
employers notice good employees and reward them. I have seen this done more than once.
IMO, It is the same as it has always been. a mediocre employee  is left to be mediocre. collect their pay and be the company drone.
exceptional employees are culled to rise to the top.

you make your own opportunities.

I DO agree that when government gets the boot off your neck, jobs thrive


----------



## bud16415

On a slightly different note there is a thread running parallel to this one where a short time member here first posted for advice on doing a few fairly straight forward repairs to his house to make it easier for him with some disabilities to keep living there. His budget was limited and he wasn&#8217;t sure how to best spend the money, he had to get the most for his money. 

We didn&#8217;t hear back for several months after he had a plan of action and he returned with a story of being ripped off by a scumbag phony builder, leaving him in worst shape than before and facing a cold winter with gaps in his unfinished walls.  

He&#8217;s got a great deal of support here and offers of help in many different ways from the good people here, and I know if the internet didn&#8217;t separate all of us with such great distance he would be also getting manpower also. That&#8217;s what good people do for each other and help their neighbors. 

As a boy I only had to be reminded once to shovel the older people in the neighborhood when they couldn&#8217;t, or mow their grass. I often saw one neighbor helping another with watching kids or fixing a house. It&#8217;s what people did. 

I could draw some comparisons between these two threads but if you take a minute to think they will be very obvious.


----------



## Chris

It's a her and her name is Apryl.


----------



## zannej

Frodo, I think it depends on the company. I imagine MOST companies reward people for doing good jobs-- although that get rewarded for setting the bar extremely low and then going slightly above. 

I have seen some places where the people who work harder are actually screwed over and the people who barely do their jobs get to coast and don't get fired. The local Walmart is an example of that.

I think it depends on where you look. Some places have a lot of opportunities and other places don't. 

I'm not saying that people shouldn't work hard and try to build a better life, but in some places there are obstacles that are very hard to overcome. There are the people who need a little helping hand from time to time. Sometimes all the hard work and effort doesn't pay off without a little assistance from others.

And I just sneezed so hard I lost my train of thought. LOL.


----------



## havasu

Chris, where exactly does April live? Dammit, if she was closer to me, I'd be over there in a heartbeat and fix up her problems. 

This is similar to the people standing at the freeway off ramps. If they ask for money, I drive away. If they ask for food, I bring them to a restaurant and buy them all the food they can eat. I may be conservative, but still have a heart.


----------



## slownsteady

This thread started on healthcare and it has strayed into all kinds of social and political sidetracks. I'm going to sign off this thread with a simple thought which has been at the base of all my posts here:

All the theories and positions and political stances are fine - in theory. 
In the real world, it is PEOPLE that get left behind. And I am uncomfortable with just saying "oh well".


----------



## Chris

I don't say oh well, I say get up and help yourself and then others will jump to help you.


----------



## bud16415

I haven&#8217;t seen a thread yet that went past 3 pages and stayed on topic. I don&#8217;t care to see people left behind also. But where does the regulation to protect us end. Let&#8217;s view this from a perspective of what&#8217;s best for the masses is the path we will take as a society. We have to have ways to force positive behavior on people then. We will narrow the focus to just health care and what activates increase one person&#8217;s risk causing another person to carry more than their share of the burden because we are now a group collective. Smoking, Drinking, Drugs come to mind first then Food, then Activates. They all are capable of increasing one person&#8217;s burden needing to be paid by the collective that&#8217;s not fair also just as unfair as leaving a person behind IMO. I know guys that like to race motocross. Is that desire a preexisting condition? It puts them at much higher risk than say a guy that enjoys curling as his pastime. But in reality all things we do that are not actively benefiting society gives us a different status than everyone else. Drinking a 32 ounce fountain drink is a burden on the collective in some people&#8217;s eyes. We are all dealt different hands at birth and that is really not fair ether but its reality. 
I&#8217;m someplace in the middle I&#8217;m lucky I have healthcare that covers most of my needs. But I read Oprah and other super rich can go once a year for a whole body scan that is so detailed it will show the beginning of a tumor or a problem that can be easily corrected. I don&#8217;t know the number but say it cost 50k. I go to my provider and ask for the test and I get a big fat NO. They say you want preventive measure go get a colon scope every 5 years and we will pay 80%. In that case am I the guy being left behind. The sad part is my capitalist company invented the machines that let us look inside ourselves with such clarity but can&#8217;t use it without a serious reason. 
Life is cruel and for 99.99% of the time man has been on earth it was survival of the fittest. The system that built this nation is flawed as are all systems. Social experiments have been tried to all degrees in countries all around the world and the results are out there to be viewed. Neal seems very happy with the Canadian Model just as I was quite happy for many years with how it worked in the states. Over the last 200 years under the capitalist model the whole of the population here has benefited and advanced society more than any other model in all of recorded history. I will save whoever is going to say yes but at the expense of the rest of the world. Some people believe that and will make a case for it. I say we have done more good than harm under that system.
The reason things got off track in this thread was because the parallel between free enterprise and competition is the same in Healthcare as it is in every other thing the government seems to think they can do better as a monopoly. 
&#8220;oh well&#8221; that&#8217;s my take on it.


----------



## frodo

I agree with Chris  110%.  God helps those that help hemselves



my 2 cents. this thread does not parallel what has happen on these boards to others.

voluntarily helping some  one is a a gift from the heart to a person who you think truly needs your help.
it is a charitable act, 

being forced to  pay a tax, is not charity.  it is what it is.  a tax. 

INMO,  the 2 are no where near the same.

i happily,  and with an open heart, [and pocket book]  help my fellow man.
It is something I CHOOSE to do. I do it in my own way.  after my bills are paid and I can afford it.

I hope you can see the difference between a tax,  and charity


----------



## frodo

slownsteady said:


> This thread started on healthcare and it has strayed into all kinds of social and political sidetracks. I'm going to sign off this thread with a simple thought which has been at the base of all my posts here:
> 
> All the theories and positions and political stances are fine - in theory.
> In the real world, it is PEOPLE that get left behind. And I am uncomfortable with just saying "oh well".



I can understand a soft heart,  nothing wrong with it.  shows you have compassion and care for your fellow man.


----------



## Chris

It is ok to live an unhealthy lifestyle and get something for free but if I was a smoker or was unhealthy I would gt to pay even more for my insurance.

I just went to the ACA website to get a quote as if I was a smoker and my monthly went up by 160 bucks. Yet if I had an income of 20k it still didn't change.


----------



## frodo

heres another damn thing.  For years....the Hospitals have been gauging us on the price of health care.
 they would snicker at our dumb ***'s  and say,  We have to charge more to offset the cost of caring for the  less fortunate  .

Ok,   NOW the "less fortunate"  have health care.  SO>>>>When are the prices going to drop?????


----------



## frodo

deleted due to high blood pressure!!!!!!!


----------



## Chris

Never, the hospitals, health insurance and the government have such a racket going on why would they?

If I had a monopoly like that I would want to hold onto it too.


----------



## frodo

Chris said:


> Never, the hospitals, health insurance and the government have such a racket going on why would they?
> 
> If I had a monopoly like that I would want to hold onto it too.



Exactly,  which brings me around to the realisation this is not for the wellbeing of the less fortunate but a big redistribution of wealth.

or if you prefer a power grab


----------



## bud16415

frodo said:


> I agree with Chris  110%.  God helps those that help hemselves
> 
> 
> 
> my 2 cents. this thread does not parallel what has happen on these boards to others.
> 
> voluntarily helping some  one is a a gift from the heart to a person who you think truly needs your help.
> it is a charitable act,
> 
> being forced to  pay a tax, is not charity.  it is what it is.  a tax.
> 
> INMO,  the 2 are no where near the same.
> 
> i happily,  and with an open heart, [and pocket book]  help my fellow man.
> It is something I CHOOSE to do. I do it in my own way.  after my bills are paid and I can afford it.
> 
> I hope you can see the difference between a tax,  and charity


  You did get my point then. That was it Tax or Charity? One makes you feel good you are seeing the help you are giving and you are doing it because you have the freedom to do it and want to do it. Now if I told you that you had to give the money to a group and the group would give the money for you to the most needy person but we wont tell you how or who or when they get it, just know its for a good cause.   And by the way we need you to give a little more. Now you are not feeling so good about it.


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> heres another damn thing.  For years....the Hospitals have been gauging us on the price of health care.
> they would snicker at our dumb ***'s  and say,  We have to charge more to offset the cost of caring for the  less fortunate  .
> 
> Ok,   NOW the "less fortunate"  have health care.  SO>>>>When are the prices going to drop?????



Exactly! And the sad thing is, there are STILL some people who are too poor to afford care mainly because the hospitals charge so damn much. If they lowered their prices, more of the people could pay. But because they charge such ludicrously high prices, people either don't get treatment or they wind up not paying at all.


----------



## Chris

I got a text last night.

Covered California Deadline to Enroll Has been Extended - but You Must Qualify!  Visit www.*************.com for more info.  Reply STOP to opt out

Since when is it ok to push a government funded anything by advertising like this?


----------



## havasu

This just proves how much of a failure this system is. People are ignoring the rules and the threats of receiving fines, so now they back down and extend the time to get the mandatory coverage.


----------



## frodo

on your tax return,  is a little box..do you have insurance?   ck yes and get on with your life


----------



## nunyabiz1

Actually there is NO ENFORCEABLE MANDATE at all, it was purposely written in the bill that way.

 If you go to the ACA website it links straight to this IRS website, under facts about the mandate.

http://www.irs.gov/Affordable-Care-...he-Individual-Shared-Responsibility-Provision

There are numerous exemptions number one and if you follow this all the way down to the very bottom to last sentence the IRS fully admits that they can do *NOTHING WHATSOEVER* to get this money except to take the refund you might have coming, that is it. So no refund, no penalty plain and simple.
It is easy to manipulate your taxes totally legally in order to get very little or no refund.

So you are being given all the ways you can avoid buying your own insurance by the ACA and the IRS themselves so that the rest of us can pay for you when you get in over your head with $100,000++ medical bills, which BTW is the leading cause of bankruptcy in the USA.
The ACA has changed NOTHING except to make it possible for millions to get health care insurance when they never could before, make it cheaper for at least 60% of everybody, change nothing for about 38% and possibly slightly raise premiums for about 2% that had bad policies in the first place.
Everyone gets free preventive care paid for 100%, so all your Physicals, Mammograms, Flu Shots, Dental Checkups, everything that is preventative is paid for 100% not even a co pay.
That saves everybody usually several hundred dollars per year just that alone.

So in REALITY virtually everybody is in fact paying less either in premiums or in services now paid for.

Here is how the 'Mandate" is enforced, this I copied and pasted straight from the bill itself.
______________________________________
"(g) Administration and Procedure-
&#8216;(1) IN GENERAL- The penalty provided by this section shall be paid upon notice and demand by the Secretary, and except as provided in paragraph (2), shall be assessed and collected in the same manner as an assessable penalty under subchapter B of chapter 68.
(2) SPECIAL RULES- Notwithstanding any other provision of law&#8212;
&#8216;(A) WAIVER OF CRIMINAL PENALTIES -  *In the case of any failure by a taxpayer to timely pay any penalty imposed by this section, such taxpayer shall not be subject to any criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure* .
&#8216;(B) LIMITATIONS ON LIENS AND LEVIES - The Secretary shall NOT&#8212;
&#8216;(i) file notice of lien with respect to any property of a taxpayer by reason of any failure to pay the penalty imposed by this section , or
&#8216;(ii) levy on any such property with respect to such failure .&#8217;""
----------------------------------------------


----------



## Chris

How do I go about getting free checkups? Mine still cost my copay if 45 bucks.

Mine and several people I know had our premiums more than double. I think your 2% raise is off by quite a bit. The only ones that have not had to pay more are those that are either cheating the system or don't make a whole lot of money.

I did the math this morning. I pay close to a grand a month for insurance and I am going to PT three times a week, I am paying full price until my deductible is meet. It is going to take over six months to have my insurance start paying anything. If I were a cash payer I would save over ten grand this year of money I can't afford to put out in the first place.

Tell me again how this system is just as fair to me as it is the guy making 20k a year?


----------



## oldognewtrick

What has the net gain in people who have health care been? How many still do not have health care coverage?


----------



## Chris

I'm curious of that as well.


----------



## frodo

Chris said:


> How do I go about getting free checkups? Mine still cost my copay if 45 bucks.
> 
> Mine and several people I know had our premiums more than double. I think your 2% raise is off by quite a bit. The only ones that have not had to pay more are those that are either cheating the system or don't make a whole lot of money.
> 
> I did the math this morning. I pay close to a grand a month for insurance and I am going to PT three times a week, I am paying full price until my deductible is meet. It is going to take over six months to have my insurance start paying anything. If I were a cash payer I would save over ten grand this year of money I can't afford to put out in the first place.
> 
> Tell me again how this system is just as fair to me as it is the guy making 20k a year?




you will not get an answer to a question he can not answer. 
to his benefit.
It is in their troll hand book.  #6.  if I am not mistak'n


----------



## nunyabiz1

Chris said:


> How do I go about getting free checkups? Mine still cost my copay if 45 bucks.
> 
> Mine and several people I know had our premiums more than double. I think your 2% raise is off by quite a bit. The only ones that have not had to pay more are those that are either cheating the system or don't make a whole lot of money.
> 
> I did the math this morning. I pay close to a grand a month for insurance and I am going to PT three times a week, I am paying full price until my deductible is meet. It is going to take over six months to have my insurance start paying anything. If I were a cash payer I would save over ten grand this year of money I can't afford to put out in the first place.
> 
> Tell me again how this system is just as fair to me as it is the guy making 20k a year?



The system has NEVER been fair to someone making $20k a year LONG before the ACA ever existed.
I have no idea why your premiums went up.

My wifes and I premiums have only gone up I think its $6 total in 10 years and we have the best Health Care plan in the whole country, both retired and making a bit over 150k in retirement.
We only pay $252 a month for full coverage, RX, Dental, Medical, Vision, with a $350 deductible per year.

If you would rather pay cash, then simply bring your Tax Refund to near zero and have at it.


----------



## nunyabiz1

oldognewtrick said:


> What has the net gain in people who have health care been? How many still do not have health care coverage?



Somewhere around 13 Million extra, but that is largely because all but ONE Right wing state has refused Medicaid.


----------



## nunyabiz1

frodo said:


> you will not get an answer to a question he can not answer.
> to his benefit.
> It is in their troll hand book.  #6.  if I am not mistak'n



I think I know exactly where you can stick that.
The only one trolling here is you.


----------



## havasu

Yep, and let me guess....It's all Bush's fault?


----------



## bud16415

I agree with nunyabiz1 it&#8217;s really a simple thing for the average guy to understand. Here is a photo of the bill. They the party in charge at the time pushed all this thru in a couple days without no one even reading it.  

Here is what Tom Harkin a &#8220;co-author&#8221; had to say about it, for those of you that like the Canadian style of health care.  
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/225812-harkin-dems-better-off-without-obamacare

Obama Care 11,588,500 words or about 10,535 pages in contrast The Constitution (original) has 4543 words including signatures. There couldn&#8217;t be anything in the fine print could there? 

Here is a link to the condensed ACA law and bill only a few thousand pages if you would like to read it. 
https://www.healthcare.gov/where-can-i-read-the-affordable-care-act/

Just remember &#8220;If you like your plan, you can keep your plan&#8221;. 

Who wrote the bill? Some would say Robert Creamer did. 
Short vid just to raise some blood pressures. 
----on edit----Video removed per request of another member. I&#8217;m assuming Rush wouldn&#8217;t be a good quote also. 
Google is your friend just google (Robert Creamer ACA) and make up your own minds as to how all this came about and came about so quickly.----


----------



## bud16415

nunyabiz1 said:


> The system has NEVER been fair to someone making $20k a year LONG before the ACA ever existed.
> I have no idea why your premiums went up.
> 
> My wifes and I premiums have only gone up I think its $6 total in 10 years and we have the best Health Care plan in the whole country, both retired and making a bit over 150k in retirement.
> We only pay $252 a month for full coverage, RX, Dental, Medical, Vision, with a $350 deductible per year.
> 
> If you would rather pay cash, then simply bring your Tax Refund to near zero and have at it.


 



Can you link the page on the healthcare exchange where your plan was located and provider?


----------



## bud16415

nunyabiz1 said:


> The system has NEVER been fair to someone making $20k a year LONG before the ACA ever existed.
> I have no idea why your premiums went up.
> 
> My wifes and I premiums have only gone up I think its $6 total in 10 years and we have the best Health Care plan in the whole country, both retired and making a bit over 150k in retirement.
> We only pay $252 a month for full coverage, RX, Dental, Medical, Vision, with a $350 deductible per year.
> 
> If you would rather pay cash, then simply bring your Tax Refund to near zero and have at it.



 From Post 25
  &#8220;My wife and I have insurance through her employer, that employer was the Federal Court system of which she retired from 4+ years ago. We have the exact same HC as Congress and the Judiciary have.
  We pay $250/month for FULL coverage, RX, Dental, Medical, Vision.&#8221;

  Did She happen to retire before ACA was in place and is covered under (Federal Employees Health and Benefits Program) that covers federal and retired workers and their dependents?


http://www.opm.gov/healthcare-insurance/changes-in-health-coverage/


----------



## slownsteady

Quoting Glenn Beck is as inflammatory and biased as quoting Michael Moore. let's agree to leave them both out of this discussion.


----------



## oldognewtrick

slownsteady said:


> Quoting Glenn Beck is as inflammatory and biased as quoting Michael Moore. let's agree to leave them both out of this discussion.



Why, when I watch the news in the morning I watch local feeds, Fox News, CNN, MSNBC. I don't look at just one point of view. I read The Huffington Post and the Drudge Report. It's silly to believe any one of the so called news channels offers anything but biased reporting. Somewhere in the middle lies the truth. Moore probably has some truth as does Beck. It's up to you to sort it out and vet the issues. 

Now I must admit I _really_ enjoy watching HLN with Robin Meade...


----------



## bud16415

With permission of the Mods a replacement vid. 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2SHpYAhszU[/ame]


----------



## juryduty

Part of the problem is the hard right-wing in congress, they keep us from moving the needle in either direction...


----------



## oldognewtrick

juryduty said:


> Part of the problem is the hard right-wing in congress, they keep us from moving the needle in either direction...



No, the problem is the majority of the people in the US don't want it and they are just doing what they were elected to do.


----------



## havasu

It's called cramming their poor ideas down our throats.


----------



## nunyabiz1

bud16415 said:


> Can you link the page on the healthcare exchange where your plan was located and provider?



We have had the same coverage for 20+ years, it is from my wifes work as part of her retirement.
It is Federal BCBS, same plan that every member of Congress can get and the Judiciary.
Has nothing at all to do with the ACA.


----------



## nunyabiz1

oldognewtrick said:


> No, the problem is the majority of the people in the US don't want it and they are just doing what they were elected to do.



46 vs 40% is only a 3% difference big deal, and that is with a massive right wing campaign of lies to discredit it.
Without $10s of million$ of right wing lying advertising dollars against it then FAR more would be for it than against it.
86% of Democrats are in total favor of it, the ones that aren't are because they want Universal Healthcare instead because it is the far better option.


To be honest I am all for the states splitting up, have the entire south just become Jesusland and the rest of the country can become the Liberal States of America and be done with it.
Without all the red states tearing us down and blue states having to pay for them the LSA could flourish.
Have Universal Healthcare, very strong Unions, Free education including trade schools, minimum wage of $15/hr, great infrastructure.


----------



## nunyabiz1

bud16415 said:


> From Post 25
> My wife and I have insurance through her employer, that employer was the Federal Court system of which she retired from 4+ years ago. We have the exact same HC as Congress and the Judiciary have.
> We pay $250/month for FULL coverage, RX, Dental, Medical, Vision.
> 
> Did She happen to retire before ACA was in place and is covered under (Federal Employees Health and Benefits Program) that covers federal and retired workers and their dependents?
> 
> 
> http://www.opm.gov/healthcare-insurance/changes-in-health-coverage/



Correct, has nothing to do with the ACA.


----------



## Chris

nunyabiz1 said:


> The system has NEVER been fair to someone making $20k a year LONG before the ACA ever existed.
> 
> I have no idea why your premiums went up.
> 
> 
> 
> My wifes and I premiums have only gone up I think its $6 total in 10 years and we have the best Health Care plan in the whole country, both retired and making a bit over 150k in retirement.
> 
> We only pay $252 a month for full coverage, RX, Dental, Medical, Vision, with a $350 deductible per year.
> 
> 
> 
> If you would rather pay cash, then simply bring your Tax Refund to near zero and have at it.




Go to the exchange and enter in that 150k a year you make on retirement and tell me what the cost is for us regular folk. Then you will see why things have gone up!

There is nothing unfair about making 20k a year. Many young adults have these jobs as stepping stones towards their careers. If you get that job at McDonald's and decide to make that your career than that is the life you chose. Nobody else should be punished and be forced to give away their hard earned money because of someone else's life choices.


----------



## Chris

nunyabiz1 said:


> 46 vs 40% is only a 3% difference big deal, and that is with a massive right wing campaign of lies to discredit it.
> Without $10s of million$ of right wing lying advertising dollars against it then FAR more would be for it than against it.
> 86% of Democrats are in total favor of it, the ones that aren't are because they want Universal Healthcare instead because it is the far better option.
> 
> 
> To be honest I am all for the states splitting up, have the entire south just become Jesusland and the rest of the country can become the Liberal States of America and be done with it.
> Without all the red states tearing us down and blue states having to pay for them the LSA could flourish.
> Have Universal Healthcare, very strong Unions, Free education including trade schools, minimum wage of $15/hr, great infrastructure.




What does 15 dollar an hour minimum wages do for that book store that it is currently putting out of business? What about all the other businesses that are barely scraping by as it is. Those are the 20k a year people in business form. Should they be left to die in the streets? Should we start a universal program to help them?


----------



## frodo

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G790p0LcgbI"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G790p0LcgbI[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HQdShleLCU[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m54CqiMGe-k"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m54CqiMGe-k[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUSWcibj9zY"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUSWcibj9zY[/ame]


----------



## frodo

Chris said:


> What does 15 dollar an hour minimum wages do for that book store that it is currently putting out of business? What about all the other businesses that are barely scraping by as it is. Those are the 20k a year people in business form. Should they be left to die in the streets? Should we start a universal program to help them?





They Do not care about jobs  all they care about is being elected again.

in june the obummer care will fold after the supreme court rules on it

Gruber has slit there throats on tape  in public.


----------



## slownsteady

> They Do not care about jobs all they care about is being elected again.


True for both sides.


----------



## oldognewtrick

slownsteady said:


> True for both sides.



You got it.......:beer:


----------



## Chris

I've noticed in this thread that very few of my answers have actually been answered by anything more than "life isn't fair for the 20k earner". Or that I should pay or owe more because I have done better for myself? I think the left has spent so much time brainwashing that it is a crime to do better for oneself or that I should feel bad because I have more than someone else.

Now I  am not overly political or feel that I am far right, I just feel that life is what you make it. If you want more than the next guy you need to work harder than the next guy. Just like nunya made some good choices in life and retired close to the 1% I don't think he should be forced to pay for anyone else, that is his money and who is to say things should cost more because of it? To me that is far more fair than anything else. We all have a fair chance in life. It is up to you what you do with it.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> I've noticed in this thread that very few of my answers have actually been answered by anything more than "life isn't fair for the 20k earner". Or that I should pay or owe more because I have done better for myself? I think the left has spent so much time brainwashing that it is a crime to do better for oneself or that I should feel bad because I have more than someone else.
> 
> Now I  am not overly political or feel that I am far right, I just feel that life is what you make it. If you want more than the next guy you need to work harder than the next guy. Just like nunya made some good choices in life and retired close to the 1% I don't think he should be forced to pay for anyone else, that is his money and who is to say things should cost more because of it? To me that is far more fair than anything else. We all have a fair chance in life. It is up to you what you do with it.



You haven't thought this thru.
You live in a great country that has a history of buiding great thing and the land of opportunity.
Send us your weak and poor or something like that. In fact means we need cheap labour to handle garbage, clean the streets, work in the mines,build railroads  and fill sweat shops.
The world do not turn on $100k jobs. When it starts to look like wages are getting fair, we make it hard for unions and ship jobs over seas.
If everyone could pull up their boot straps and get a good job, do you not think we would find new people to work a macdonalds or pick fruit.
With out health care those people will alway be a drain on the system whether you pay mre healthcare or taxes.
You have a good start and it is about time that the people you elect start working on how to make it better. It has already lower the rate of inflation in the cost of health care. That's only a start. Oh and BTW nobody will ever dare to cancil it either party.
A country that isn't moving forward only has one other direction to go.

I still don't think this discussion should be on this web site.


----------



## bud16415

nunyabiz1 said:


> We have had the same coverage for 20+ years, it is from my wifes work as part of her retirement.
> It is Federal BCBS, same plan that every member of Congress can get and the Judiciary.
> Has nothing at all to do with the ACA.



 I find it slightly ironic you have cited several times your excellent health care plan when expounding on the virtues of ACA insurance for others and how even a single payer plan that includes everyone into the model would be better yet. You were eluding somehow a comparison. You went on about how good your plan is and how low your premiums are and how much is covered. But you are enrolled in Federal blue cross blue shield AKA Federal Employee Health Benefits Program. With the introduction of ACA Federal Employees from senators on down now have to shop for health insurance on the exchanges just like everyone else. But because your wife retired before that date you are grandfathered into your old plan of 20 some years. For some strange reason the executive branch was spared the pleasure of being on ACA. Michelle Obama didnt have to sit down at her kitchen table with her laptop and select a plan when the rest of the country did, nor did any of the staff. Nor did you and your wife. The rest of us have no access to the plan you are on. 

  Chris asked you a simple question and I dont remember hearing it answered. He made a request that you go to the health care exchange and just put your information in and see what excellent plans and cost structure you will find and report back what position you would be in today if given the fact you had to comply with the rules of the ACA. 

  I would simply ask you to just call up the Federal Employee Health Benefits Program and tell them you want to do the right thing for the country and your fellow man and cancel your plan. That you feel so strongly in the concept of the ACA that you want to do the right thing and become part of the greater good. I mean really if you feel a guy running a construction business (employing people) should pay a higher amount to help out the 14 million people that now can have health insurance under the ACA why shouldnt a couple retired people making the same amount of money.


----------



## Chris

Bud, for the record I make about half of what he does in retirement.


----------



## frodo

........................


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> ........................



I can agree with that.:rofl:


----------



## bud16415

nunyabiz1 said:


> 46 vs 40% is only a 3% difference big deal, and that is with a massive right wing campaign of lies to discredit it.
> Without $10s of million$ of right wing lying advertising dollars against it then FAR more would be for it than against it.
> 86% of Democrats are in total favor of it, the ones that aren't are because they want Universal Healthcare instead because it is the far better option.
> 
> 
> To be honest I am all for the states splitting up, have the entire south just become Jesusland and the rest of the country can become the Liberal States of America and be done with it.
> Without all the red states tearing us down and blue states having to pay for them the LSA could flourish.
> Have Universal Healthcare, very strong Unions, Free education including trade schools, minimum wage of $15/hr, great infrastructure.





  Before you get too excited about dividing the country into two parts based around the red blue electoral map we always see. Let&#8217;s subdivide the map to look at it state by state and how they voted last time around, how about instead of states let&#8217;s look at it by congressional districts. 
  I live in Pa and if you take away the one or two largest cities the state becomes as red very red. You might like to think when you claim Pa for your Liberal States of America you get Pa but what you really get is 4 or 5 highly congested inner cities with major problems. That&#8217;s going to be your core followers singing the praise of LSA. Look at the map and see where the pockets of blue are located. Those are the areas that are selecting our leaders and setting the course for the rest of the country. When you say the blue states are paying for the rest of the red tearing down the country again take a look at it in a microscopic view. Good luck feeding the LSA, good luck making it thru one winter. 

  I&#8217;m not much of a religious man actually but still take offense on so many levels to you referring to your ideology as the LSA and lumping the conservatives in our country as needing a place called Jesusland. I will chalk that statement up to the anonymity of the internet hopefully. Or do you call your religious neighbors and business connections Bible Thumpers and such when you run in to them in public? 

  Well here is a map of the country and where your blue pockets of like-minded people live.


----------



## bud16415

Chris said:


> Bud, for the record I make about half of what he does in retirement.




 Then he should pay double. Its only fair.


----------



## frodo

I for one.  Am DAMN Proud to live in "Jesus Land"    
yes SIR..
I pray before I go to sleep at night
I  say grace before I eat
I go to Church every Sunday
I say yes mam and no mam or Sir to my elders
I read the Constitution
I am a VET
Brothers A Vet
Daddy's A vet
Grand Dad 's A vet
And the men before him,  Fought the British, Spanish,   And Each other 
If Need be,  We will Fight again


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> Who paid for all those er visits before?





I did,   The Hospitals overcharged those who could pay to offset the cost of those who could not.

NOW,   That those who could not pay can..why is the cost not going down?


WE are still paying for those who can not pay,  but now we are paying more


----------



## Chris

So I went to the exchange for nunya, assuming he is close to 65 with a retired of 150k this is almost a comparable plan to what he has now. This is in the real world that we all live in, no jokes. This is what the left sees as the right thing to do. Nunya can you afford to pay this 2100 a month for care, yes you can because you will still have 100k+ a year left over and by you paying 24k+ for insurance you are helping that guy who makes 20k a year. Now remember you don't have a choice in the matter.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Repair1424186335.225902.jpg


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> You haven't thought this thru.
> You live in a great country that has a history of buiding great thing and the land of opportunity.
> Send us your weak and poor or something like that. In fact means we need cheap labour to handle garbage, clean the streets, work in the mines,build railroads  and fill sweat shops.
> The world do not turn on $100k jobs. When it starts to look like wages are getting fair, we make it hard for unions and ship jobs over seas.
> If everyone could pull up their boot straps and get a good job, do you not think we would find new people to work a macdonalds or pick fruit.
> With out health care those people will alway be a drain on the system whether you pay mre healthcare or taxes.
> You have a good start and it is about time that the people you elect start working on how to make it better. It has already lower the rate of inflation in the cost of health care. That's only a start. Oh and BTW nobody will ever dare to cancil it either party.
> A country that isn't moving forward only has one other direction to go.
> 
> I still don't think this discussion should be on this web site.




you said right there in your post. "The Land Of opportunity"

In other words,  get up off your lazy hind end, And do for yourself.  MAKE it happen,  

"The land of opportunity, not land of welfare"


----------



## frodo

Chris said:


> So I went to the exchange for nunya, assuming he is close to 65 with a retired of 150k this is almost a comparable plan to what he has now. This is in the real world that we all live in, no jokes. This is what the left sees as the right thing to do. Nunya can you afford to pay this 2100 a month for care, yes you can because you will still have 100k+ a year left over and by you paying 24k+ for insurance you are helping that guy who makes 20k a year. Now remember you don't have a choice in the matter.
> 
> View attachment 8460




Bet you a twelve pack of Fat Tire,  you will not get an honest answer.


----------



## frodo

My pressures up,  I'm going bottle hopping......................


----------



## frodo

...gave then bottles what for!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## zannej

I think we've pretty much established that even if people are going out and earning more money, it isn't making healthcare anymore affordable. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, someone needs to step in and take a look at the hospitals, clinics, doctors etc and see what they are charging and find out how much the treatments actually cost and then bring the prices down to slightly above those costs so there is at least some profit margin to offset nonpayment and other things.

If the treatment doesn't cost as much then it won't cost the insurance companies as much and then it won't justify such insane premiums. Although I still wonder how the hell the insurance companies are getting away with premiums like that.

When I looked on the marketplace for the lowest coverage plans it all came out to being more than $5k per year-- deductibles were insanely high, and premiums were ridiculous. 

If the prices at hospitals and clinics were more reasonable, it would just be cheaper to remain uninsured and go get stuff done when necessary.

I hope I'm making sense. I'm still sick and my ...... brainfreeze...


----------



## nunyabiz1

bud16415 said:


> Before you get too excited about dividing the country into two parts based around the red blue electoral map we always see. Lets subdivide the map to look at it state by state and how they voted last time around, how about instead of states lets look at it by congressional districts.
> I live in Pa and if you take away the one or two largest cities the state becomes as red very red. You might like to think when you claim Pa for your Liberal States of America you get Pa but what you really get is 4 or 5 highly congested inner cities with major problems. Thats going to be your core followers singing the praise of LSA. Look at the map and see where the pockets of blue are located. Those are the areas that are selecting our leaders and setting the course for the rest of the country. When you say the blue states are paying for the rest of the red tearing down the country again take a look at it in a microscopic view. Good luck feeding the LSA, good luck making it thru one winter.
> 
> Im not much of a religious man actually but still take offense on so many levels to you referring to your ideology as the LSA and lumping the conservatives in our country as needing a place called Jesusland. I will chalk that statement up to the anonymity of the internet hopefully. Or do you call your religious neighbors and business connections Bible Thumpers and such when you run in to them in public?
> 
> Well here is a map of the country and where your blue pockets of like-minded people live.



The majority of that red in "blue states" district wise is most likely massive gerrymandering .
As for the LSA, no problem at all it would flourish while the red states would crumble without those blue states supporting them.


----------



## nunyabiz1

bud16415 said:


> I find it slightly ironic you have cited several times your excellent health care plan when expounding on the virtues of ACA insurance for others and how even a single payer plan that includes everyone into the model would be better yet. You were eluding somehow a comparison. You went on about how good your plan is and how low your premiums are and how much is covered. But you are enrolled in Federal blue cross blue shield AKA Federal Employee Health Benefits Program. With the introduction of ACA Federal Employees from senators on down now have to shop for health insurance on the exchanges just like everyone else. But because your wife retired before that date you are grandfathered into your old plan of 20 some years. For some strange reason the executive branch was spared the pleasure of being on ACA. Michelle Obama didn&#8217;t have to sit down at her kitchen table with her laptop and select a plan when the rest of the country did, nor did any of the staff. Nor did you and your wife. The rest of us have no access to the plan you are on.
> 
> Chris asked you a simple question and I don&#8217;t remember hearing it answered. He made a request that you go to the health care exchange and just put your information in and see what excellent plans and cost structure you will find and report back what position you would be in today if given the fact you had to comply with the rules of the ACA.
> 
> I would simply ask you to just call up the Federal Employee Health Benefits Program and tell them you want to do the right thing for the country and your fellow man and cancel your plan. That you feel so strongly in the concept of the ACA that you want to do the right thing and become part of the greater good. I mean really if you feel a guy running a construction business (employing people) should pay a higher amount to help out the 14 million people that now can have health insurance under the ACA why shouldn&#8217;t a couple retired people making the same amount of money.




You of course realize that this BENEFIT was part of of my wifes 37 years of working her *** off as part of her retirement plan right?
I realize that we could not touch the quality of this plan for what we are paying because her employer is paying the lions share of the premium as part of her retirement benefits which like Medicare or Social Security we WORK for all our lives.
She does not get the option of Social security she has a federal pension thus that pension pays most of her Medical insurance.

I just tried to get a quote, since it is after the enrollment period I do not see a way to do so.

I am in TOTAL agreement that NOBODY regardless of how much they make should pay one red cent more than ANYONE else. You will never find a Democrat or Green Party or any non republican say otherwise.
Which is clearly why the only healthcare that makes ANY sense at all is UNIVERSAL healthcare or at least a Medicare for All for about $100/month where IF you make less than say $20K you pay NOTHING and for everyone else you never pay more than $100. We would have 308 Million people all in the same pool so cost could be FAR lower and standardized just like Medicare is.

THAT would be fair and the ONLY way to achieve that is Universal or Medicare for All, FOR PROFIT Healthcare is a joke and sham and should be criminal and will NEVER, EVER be fair by any stretch of the imagination because they only care about one thing and this is PROFIT.

I would like nothing better than to have Chris able to get exactly what my wife and I have, In fact it should be BETTER than what my wife and I have, we ALL should have the same Coverage we have and ALL of us pay LESS than the $252 we currently pay. We could get that with some form of Universal healthcare.

In fact the taxes we all pay is WAY more than enough to fully pay for 100% Free healthcare already, most every country on the planet is paying LESS than we are in the US towards healthcare and we get far less for it because of this For Profit manure we have stupidly saddled ourselves with.


----------



## nunyabiz1

Chris said:


> Bud, for the record I make about half of what he does in retirement.



That is combining both my Wifes and I retirement incomes.
I worked for Scripps Institute of Oceanography as a Marine Biologist for just 24 years and retired early, she for the Federal Courts for 37 close to the same income but she had better benefits.


----------



## zannej

How about NOT making this an Us vs Them thing that makes broad generalizations about the people in different states. When we approach things with such venom it only leads to more venom and it doesn't accomplish anything. Instead of belittling the "other side", how about we look at the big picture and what can be done to try to improve things for both sides?

I will say that I don't think it is right for the government to try to force people to buy health insurance-- especially since it is not affordable for many people. If your income is considered high enough, they jack up the prices. If your income is too low then you are on your own.

Its not like owning a car where you have some choice in the matter. Owning a car means you are responsible for that vehicle and when you drive it you are responsible for yourself, your passengers, and other drivers on the road because if you screw up you could hurt or kill them. That is why it is necessary to carry car insurance. But health insurance is something where people don't really have a choice. 

I don't think that Obamacare in its current format is working very well for a large part of the population. There need to be more changes and we need to get down to the root of some of the problems.

Back and forth insults will accomplish nothing. We may disagree on what works, but we can at least do so with respect and try to understand other people's points of view.

(I started typing this before I saw the post about everyone paying the same price for healthcare). 

I think part of the issue is: How many people will be paying absolutely nothing in to the system? And will say $100 per month or so be enough compensation for all of those people who can't pay?
What if people aren't happy with what the universal stuff covers or how it is covered or whatever and they want something different? Would there still be an option for something affordable?

And... damnit.. brainfreeze. got a sinus headache... I swear, I'm not usually this scatterbrained.

PS. My father had a masters in marine biology-- he specialized in Invertebrate Zoology.


----------



## nunyabiz1

bud16415 said:


> Then he should pay double. Its only fair.



Then the Koch Bros should basically pay for everybody.

You see the thing is both my wife are fully abiding by total right wing ideology.
We both are highly educated, I have a Masters of Science In Environmental Science from Stanford University, she is also college educated.
We both have only worked ONE job our entire lives, she started with the JAG offices at Fort Bragg and went into the regular Federal Court, all basically the same and in the Federal Court System.
I went straight from Stanford to Scripps.
Neither of us have ever once had to rely on any type of federal or state assistance of any kind, never taken a dime of unemployment, never been without a job, pay a gracious plenty in taxes.
She will never even get Social Security although I can but I like everyone else PAID for it for 24 years.

BUT, we both would still prefer that EVERYBODY were given the same chances we had.
Back in the 70s & early 80s education was virtually free in comparison.
Everything was better prior to Reagan screwing everything up.

Most people today do not have the opportunity that my wife and I were lucky enough to have.
We would both much rather that EVERYBODY have the excellent healthcare that we are lucky enough to enjoy.

But as long as we have a right wing congress and a right wing media that has brainwashed 50% of the country to believe that everyone that were not as lucky as we were because of WHEN we were born are all "Takers" then there is no possible way that is ever going to happen.
In fact the more right wing this country gets the worse it is going to be for everyone that isn't in that top 2%.


----------



## nunyabiz1

zannej said:


> How about NOT making this an Us vs Them thing that makes broad generalizations about the people in different states. When we approach things with such venom it only leads to more venom and it doesn't accomplish anything. Instead of belittling the "other side", how about we look at the big picture and what can be done to try to improve things for both sides?
> 
> I will say that I don't think it is right for the government to try to force people to buy health insurance-- especially since it is not affordable for many people. If your income is considered high enough, they jack up the prices. If your income is too low then you are on your own.
> 
> Its not like owning a car where you have some choice in the matter. Owning a car means you are responsible for that vehicle and when you drive it you are responsible for yourself, your passengers, and other drivers on the road because if you screw up you could hurt or kill them. That is why it is necessary to carry car insurance. But health insurance is something where people don't really have a choice.
> 
> I don't think that Obamacare in its current format is working very well for a large part of the population. There need to be more changes and we need to get down to the root of some of the problems.
> 
> Back and forth insults will accomplish nothing. We may disagree on what works, but we can at least do so with respect and try to understand other people's points of view.
> 
> (I started typing this before I saw the post about everyone paying the same price for healthcare).
> 
> I think part of the issue is: How many people will be paying absolutely nothing in to the system? And will say $100 per month or so be enough compensation for all of those people who can't pay?
> What if people aren't happy with what the universal stuff covers or how it is covered or whatever and they want something different? Would there still be an option for something affordable?
> 
> And... damnit.. brainfreeze. got a sinus headache... I swear, I'm not usually this scatterbrained.
> 
> PS. My father had a masters in marine biology-- he specialized in Invertebrate Zoology.





I pretty much totally agree, however when approx 50% of the country is Liberal and thinks as I do and 50% Right wing and believes exactly the opposite which frankly is all pure nonsense then it literally does come down to Us vs Them.  When facts mean nothing, then rational discourse is not possible.  It becomes a "religion".

The biggest problem quite honestly is the MEDIA, the media for about 30 years has come down to being owned by 5 right wing corporations, every single word you hear or read is filtered through a right wing filter first.
Even stations the extreme right wing call 'liberal" such as MSNBC is actually a couple clicks to the RIGHT from Centrist.
The problem is that everyone else is sooooo far to the Right that a station that is close to center to them appears to be far left.
There isn't anything that comes close to Fox so called news on the left, in fact the "left" would not put up with it.
What passes for "left" is actually at very best near dead center.

I agree it doesn't help, but it is what it is until the right wing snaps out of it.

Things have gotten so polarized that it is exactly like trying to discuss the age of the Earth with a Young Earth Creationist, facts just do not matter thus it is impossible to get anywhere.


I specialized in Cyanobacteria and related Toxins myself


----------



## Chris

I don't believe the media is screwing everything up because they are right winged, I think the media has screwed everything up because they are the media and it makes them money by over reporting and causing controversy. Technology has to be one of the main causes for all of these problems. When it took a week to get a paper from Florida to Oregon things happened at a slower rate. Just look at everything from the mid 90's up. All lifes problems have escalated ten fold from anything before. Look at Facebook now days, every other post is someone trying to start controversy. Its a sad world. Another issue I see is that we are raising a bunch of sissies, we keep forcing higher education on everyone yet this country has a need for all from uneducated all the way up. How many people could possibly be needed with a degree in the arts? Trade schools are going away as no one is interested in trades anymore. This country stops moving without Mechanics, landscapers, framers, bus drivers and the like. Jobs like McDonalds used to be stepping stone jobs for teenagers and young adults, they were never meant to be a career path.

Next is credit. Why do we need credit cards? We don't! Aside from buying a house or possibly a car there is no need for credit in life. I guarantee people would be doing much better without it. If you had to save for that new TV or new phone you would probably think twice about getting it and even if you did buy it you would be saving close to 40% of your income by paying cash for items. I gave up on credit for small purchases about 8 years ago and have had way more money because of it. Credit cards are ruining people.


----------



## frodo

.....................................................................


----------



## Chris

frodo said:


> .....................................................................



I see what you did there.


----------



## zannej

Chris said:


> I see what you did there.



Someone clue me in please. My brain is not operating on all cylinders today.


----------



## frodo

LOL......Figured it just wasn't worth it.....


----------



## havasu

zannej said:


> Someone clue me in please. My brain is not operating on all cylinders today.



Admins and mods can read unedited versions of posts. I'm sure something was posted but when reread, it was decided that it was better off being deleted.:2cents:


----------



## zannej

I admit that credit cards are convenient for paying instead of carrying around cash, but my family uses them more like debit cards. They always get paid off every month so it doesn't get carried over with interest charges and we get rewards points that we use to buy stuff.

But I know what you mean.. People are learning from early on to spend more than they have. It starts with colleges where the banks are in bed with the universities to get people in debt up to their eyeballs.

I also want everyone to be able to have excellent healthcare, I just am not sure on what is the best way to go about making that happen. I do know that unilaterally dismissing an entire side (left or right) as "nonsense" and not being willing to have a dialog with an open mind is part of the problem.

Its more productive to address the actual issues rather than the people behind the ideas.

If we stop saying "these people are selfish" or "these people are lazy" and say "What can we do to make sure that people are not getting screwed over?" then we can at least have a start.

I will say that I'm in the middle. There are some things on which I lean to the left and others where I lean to the right. On some issues I'm not sure where I stand because its not all clearcut black and white. There are gray areas that need to be taken into consideration. I know that it sucks not being able to afford medical treatment. I know that it sucks having to pay insane %s of taxes. So, where is the middle ground? How do we help people without hurting others?

Meanwhile, a big problem is that we have politicians making decisions on things that don't really affect them very much and therefore, they don't care as much about what happens to people. They are caught up in the Us vs Them crap that is pretty much crippling the country. It's like a scene from "Horse Feathers"
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29E6GbYdB1c[/ame]


----------



## slownsteady

Zannej, you make sense, and you like the Marx brothers...............two thumbs up.


----------



## bud16415

nunyabiz1 said:


> You of course realize that this BENEFIT was part of of my wifes 37 years of working her *** off as part of her retirement plan right?
> I realize that we could not touch the quality of this plan for what we are paying because her employer is paying the lions share of the premium as part of her retirement benefits which like Medicare or Social Security we WORK for all our lives.
> She does not get the option of Social security she has a federal pension thus that pension pays most of her Medical insurance.
> 
> I just tried to get a quote, since it is after the enrollment period I do not see a way to do so.
> 
> I am in TOTAL agreement that NOBODY regardless of how much they make should pay one red cent more than ANYONE else. You will never find a Democrat or Green Party or any non republican say otherwise.
> Which is clearly why the only healthcare that makes ANY sense at all is UNIVERSAL healthcare or at least a Medicare for All for about $100/month where IF you make less than say $20K you pay NOTHING and for everyone else you never pay more than $100. We would have 308 Million people all in the same pool so cost could be FAR lower and standardized just like Medicare is.
> 
> THAT would be fair and the ONLY way to achieve that is Universal or Medicare for All, FOR PROFIT Healthcare is a joke and sham and should be criminal and will NEVER, EVER be fair by any stretch of the imagination because they only care about one thing and this is PROFIT.
> 
> I would like nothing better than to have Chris able to get exactly what my wife and I have, In fact it should be BETTER than what my wife and I have, we ALL should have the same Coverage we have and ALL of us pay LESS than the $252 we currently pay. We could get that with some form of Universal healthcare.
> 
> In fact the taxes we all pay is WAY more than enough to fully pay for 100% Free healthcare already, most every country on the planet is paying LESS than we are in the US towards healthcare and we get far less for it because of this For Profit manure we have stupidly saddled ourselves with.



 I dont doubt your wife worked very hard for 37 years and you both paid your share of taxes. The pay she received was also generated thru the tax system as are the benefits you both now receive in terms of health care in retirement minus your contribution. If we stay focused on the topic of health care and how it applies to a liberal thinking person, we have to notice that say a welder in Texas, a cook at a grade school in Fla, a fisherman in Maine, a plumber in Ohio etc. etc. right down to every member thats reading this paid some part of your wifes salary in return for her excellent job she did for many years. Our taxes are now subsidizing your retirement income thru allowing you to pay less for insurance. 

  A true progressive that feels a system of equality for all is the way to go would have a hard time sleeping at night I would think, knowing they are benefiting financially at the cost to another less fortunate person in the private sector making one fourth of what you are and paying twice the health care premium for their family for a way less attractive plan, and at the same time paying federal taxes to support you. Those of us that are employed in the private sector can sleep easy knowing no one but an evil mega corporation is giving us what they feel it takes to keep us working for them. The guy that is sleepless is the small business owner trying to figure out where the needed money is going to come from. Its not enough he needs to keep his business out of the red pay himself and buy healthcare for his family. He needs extra profits to pay for others in need a noble cause. But now he knows he needs to pony over just a little more to cover a family thats retired with twice the income his family has because ACA law gave a provision to grandfather them into a subsidy. 

  Its all legal and a great thing if you can get it, but if you follow the money I would have to think it would be quite disturbing to a true believer in a far left liberal set of values. 

  Someone once told me we are all equal, just that some people are more equal than others. 

  Here is a good example of how this all came to be and how the party who did this for us truly thinks we are all equal, just some more equal and not smart enough to know whats good for them so the smarter ones need to hide the truth from them. For their own good of course. 
http://insider.foxnews.com/2014/11/...deo-obamacare-architect-gruber-admitting-lack
  Please dont comment on the link unless you watch it.


----------



## frodo

bud16415 said:


> I don&#8217;t doubt your wife worked very hard for 37 years and you both paid your share of taxes. The pay she received was also generated thru the tax system as are the benefits you both now receive in terms of health care in retirement minus your contribution. If we stay focused on the topic of health care and how it applies to a liberal thinking person, we have to notice that say a welder in Texas, a cook at a grade school in Fla, a fisherman in Maine, a plumber in Ohio etc. etc. right down to every member that&#8217;s reading this paid some part of your wife&#8217;s salary in return for her excellent job she did for many years. Our taxes are now subsidizing your retirement income thru allowing you to pay less for insurance.
> 
> A true progressive that feels a system of equality for all is the way to go would have a hard time sleeping at night I would think, knowing they are benefiting financially at the cost to another less fortunate person in the private sector making one fourth of what you are and paying twice the health care premium for their family for a way less attractive plan, and at the same time paying federal taxes to support you. Those of us that are employed in the private sector can sleep easy knowing no one but an evil mega corporation is giving us what they feel it takes to keep us working for them. The guy that is sleepless is the small business owner trying to figure out where the needed money is going to come from. It&#8217;s not enough he needs to keep his business out of the red pay himself and buy healthcare for his family. He needs extra profits to pay for others in need a noble cause. But now he knows he needs to pony over just a little more to cover a family that&#8217;s retired with twice the income his family has because ACA law gave a provision to grandfather them into a subsidy.
> 
> It&#8217;s all legal and a great thing if you can get it, but if you follow the money I would have to think it would be quite disturbing to a true believer in a far left liberal set of values.
> 
> Someone once told me we are all equal, just that some people are more equal than others.
> 
> Here is a good example of how this all came to be and how the party who did this for us truly thinks we are all equal, just some more equal and not smart enough to know what&#8217;s good for them so the smarter ones need to hide the truth from them. For their own good of course.
> http://insider.foxnews.com/2014/11/...deo-obamacare-architect-gruber-admitting-lack
> Please don&#8217;t comment on the link unless you watch it.







I watched it,  then,  and now.  love me some Megan Kelly
Beautiful AND Smart...Telling it like it is,


----------



## nunyabiz1

bud16415 said:


> I dont doubt your wife worked very hard for 37 years and you both paid your share of taxes. The pay she received was also generated thru the tax system as are the benefits you both now receive in terms of health care in retirement minus your contribution. If we stay focused on the topic of health care and how it applies to a liberal thinking person, we have to notice that say a welder in Texas, a cook at a grade school in Fla, a fisherman in Maine, a plumber in Ohio etc. etc. right down to every member thats reading this paid some part of your wifes salary in return for her excellent job she did for many years. Our taxes are now subsidizing your retirement income thru allowing you to pay less for insurance.
> 
> A true progressive that feels a system of equality for all is the way to go would have a hard time sleeping at night I would think, knowing they are benefiting financially at the cost to another less fortunate person in the private sector making one fourth of what you are and paying twice the health care premium for their family for a way less attractive plan, and at the same time paying federal taxes to support you. Those of us that are employed in the private sector can sleep easy knowing no one but an evil mega corporation is giving us what they feel it takes to keep us working for them. The guy that is sleepless is the small business owner trying to figure out where the needed money is going to come from. Its not enough he needs to keep his business out of the red pay himself and buy healthcare for his family. He needs extra profits to pay for others in need a noble cause. But now he knows he needs to pony over just a little more to cover a family thats retired with twice the income his family has because ACA law gave a provision to grandfather them into a subsidy.
> 
> Its all legal and a great thing if you can get it, but if you follow the money I would have to think it would be quite disturbing to a true believer in a far left liberal set of values.
> 
> Someone once told me we are all equal, just that some people are more equal than others.
> 
> Here is a good example of how this all came to be and how the party who did this for us truly thinks we are all equal, just some more equal and not smart enough to know whats good for them so the smarter ones need to hide the truth from them. For their own good of course.
> http://insider.foxnews.com/2014/11/...deo-obamacare-architect-gruber-admitting-lack
> Please dont comment on the link unless you watch it.



Which is exactly why as a Liberal I wish EVERYBODY in the country to have the exact same health insurance coverage that we have, all preferably paid for by that horrible government 100% out of the taxes that we already pay.
The only change in taxation should be those that make well in excess of 10 Million a year should be paying at least 60% in tax with a lot less loopholes.
Corporations should be made to pay more in taxes.
Back when this country was doing the best it ever has corporations paid about 30+% of all taxes, today even though they make WAY more than ever they only pay 9%.
Individual taxes of the top tax bracket was 91% and that was from a Republican president and administration.
Things were WAY better in the 50s thru the 70s.
A single low to medium wage earner back then could easily afford a Mortgage, car, food, 2 vacations a year, send the kids to college and still have enough left over to put into savings.
Today to do that would take TWO medium to high wage earners to even have a prayer to do the same.
Cost have skyrocketed, while wages have remained stagnant EXCEPT for the top 2%, their income has gone up over 250% above cost of living while the majority of the bottom 98% has at best gone up about 1% above with a large percentage actually making less than they did 30 years ago.
In 1965 the average CEO made 24X what the average worker in that company made, meaning even back then if the average worker made $500 a month that CEO made $12,000/month that was back when things were doing great. 
Today that CEO is making between 200 to 300X more while the worker is not even keeping up with inflation. So today if the average worker is making a measly $1900 a month the average CEO is making about $575,000/month and that doesn't include stock options and benefits which usually DOUBLE that amount,  or in 1965 terms instead of $12,000 they would have been making $150,000 a month + stock options and benefits in 1965. 

So here is where we have a problem, while the top 1% own and make 50% of all the wealth in this country, that leaves the bottom 99% to split the remaining 50% and the top 10% take 80% of that. and it is getting worse each year since 1980.

See the difference between liberal vs Conservative over the past 30 years is that the Liberal sees that as a CRIMINAL act perpetrated on 98% of the population by the filthy rich taking control of the country (Oligarchy)
The Conservative bizarrely sees that as perfectly OK and good old Capitalism at its finest for the top 2% to essentially take over the country while making the bottom 50+% SLAVES.
The Liberal would rather see "Wealth redistribution" where the top 2% which makes around 55% of the entire wealth in this country should be paying AT LEAST 60% of the taxes not the 35% they do now.
The bottom 50% should all be making a real living wage instead of most of it going into the pockets of the top 2%.
That way the bottom 50% could actually pay taxes.
The top 2% would STILL be the top 2% still be making massively more money than they need, the only difference is that the bottom 50% could actually make a living wage again like they did in the 50s to the 70s.
That would mean FAR less unemployed, FAR less on welfare, the economy booming, Far more taken in in taxes overall so we could easily afford to have ALL of our citizens receive Universal Single Payer Healthcare where everyone pays exactly the same, a very small percentage of everyone's taxes goes to paying for that healthcare and the only ones paying more would be those in that top 2% income bracket that can easily afford it.

That is the ONLY way that healthcare can ever be remotely fair for EVERYONE. Is to simply stop what amounts to a criminal oligarchy.

This isn't very hard to figure out, it isn't communism, its just the right thing to do.


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## frodo

our tax's would have to go up, because we [USA] can not  afford to pay every ones health care  100%  out of the tax's we already pay
SOMEONE has to foot the bill'

we have lost 42 companies in the past year to over seas corporations. companies are leaveing the US because of higher taxs here than any where else.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonhartley/2014/08/25/burger-kings-tax-inversion-and-canadas-favorable-corporate-tax-rates/


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## nunyabiz1

frodo said:


> our tax's would have to go up, because we [USA] can not  afford to pay every ones health care  100%  out of the tax's we already pay
> SOMEONE has to foot the bill'
> 
> we have lost 42 companies in the past year to over seas corporations. companies are leaveing the US because of higher taxs here than any where else.
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonhartley/2014/08/25/burger-kings-tax-inversion-and-canadas-favorable-corporate-tax-rates/



Yet magically the rest of the planet can do so.

and as I stated in last post if the top 2% paid what they should be in taxes and if corporations paid a real living wage to the bottom 50% then we would have more than enough tax money to pay for it without raising taxes on anyone except the top 2%.

as for corporate taxes that is pure nonsense the effective tax rate for most corporations in this country is about 13% thanks to countless loopholes.
The only reason a corporation goes elsewhere is because of what is called "territorial taxation" meaning that a US 'Global" corporation have to pay U.S. taxes on their profits *earned overseas*.
Most countries do not do this, you pay taxes on what was earned IN that country.
I have no problem with that, if a corporation makes a Billion in say France they should pay taxes IN France for that money made there and not here also.
But they should pay at least close to that 35% they are supposed to be paying here in Corporate taxes, take away all those loopholes.
Why should a corporation make 10 Billion dollars here and pay less than 13% in tax or in many cases ZERO?
They should pay 35% in tax period for the money they make HERE, whatever they make elsewhere they should pay that countries taxes but not ALSO pay again here.  THAT I agree is complete BS.


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## bud16415

nunyabiz1 said:


> Which is exactly why as a Liberal I wish EVERYBODY in the country to have the exact same health insurance coverage that we have, all preferably paid for by that horrible government 100% out of the taxes that we already pay.
> The only change in taxation should be those that make well in excess of 10 Million a year should be paying at least 60% in tax with a lot less loopholes.
> Corporations should be made to pay more in taxes.
> Back when this country was doing the best it ever has corporations paid about 30+% of all taxes, today even though they make WAY more than ever they only pay 9%.
> Individual taxes of the top tax bracket was 91% and that was from a Republican president and administration.
> Things were WAY better in the 50s thru the 70s.
> A single low to medium wage earner back then could easily afford a Mortgage, car, food, 2 vacations a year, send the kids to college and still have enough left over to put into savings.
> Today to do that would take TWO medium to high wage earners to even have a prayer to do the same.
> Cost have skyrocketed, while wages have remained stagnant EXCEPT for the top 2%, their income has gone up over 250% above cost of living while the majority of the bottom 98% has at best gone up about 1% above with a large percentage actually making less than they did 30 years ago.
> In 1965 the average CEO made 24X what the average worker in that company made, meaning even back then if the average worker made $500 a month that CEO made $12,000/month that was back when things were doing great.
> Today that CEO is making between 200 to 300X more while the worker is not even keeping up with inflation. So today if the average worker is making a measly $1900 a month the average CEO is making about $575,000/month and that doesn't include stock options and benefits which usually DOUBLE that amount,  or in 1965 terms instead of $12,000 they would have been making $150,000 a month + stock options and benefits in 1965.
> 
> So here is where we have a problem, while the top 1% own and make 50% of all the wealth in this country, that leaves the bottom 99% to split the remaining 50% and the top 10% take 80% of that. and it is getting worse each year since 1980.
> 
> See the difference between liberal vs Conservative over the past 30 years is that the Liberal sees that as a CRIMINAL act perpetrated on 98% of the population by the filthy rich taking control of the country (Oligarchy)
> The Conservative bizarrely sees that as perfectly OK and good old Capitalism at its finest for the top 2% to essentially take over the country while making the bottom 50+% SLAVES.
> The Liberal would rather see "Wealth redistribution" where the top 2% which makes around 55% of the entire wealth in this country should be paying AT LEAST 60% of the taxes not the 35% they do now.
> The bottom 50% should all be making a real living wage instead of most of it going into the pockets of the top 2%.
> That way the bottom 50% could actually pay taxes.
> The top 2% would STILL be the top 2% still be making massively more money than they need, the only difference is that the bottom 50% could actually make a living wage again like they did in the 50s to the 70s.
> That would mean FAR less unemployed, FAR less on welfare, the economy booming, Far more taken in in taxes overall so we could easily afford to have ALL of our citizens receive Universal Single Payer Healthcare where everyone pays exactly the same, a very small percentage of everyone's taxes goes to paying for that healthcare and the only ones paying more would be those in that top 2% income bracket that can easily afford it.
> 
> That is the ONLY way that healthcare can ever be remotely fair for EVERYONE. Is to simply stop what amounts to a criminal oligarchy.
> 
> This isn't very hard to figure out, it isn't communism, its just the right thing to do.




 No nation has ever taxed itself to prosperity. No nation has ever borrowed its way out of debt. 
  That&#8217;s my belief short and simple. 

  Below is a very long read but if you want the straight scoop on what went on between Carter and Clinton here it is. 
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-192.html

  If you want to know what all the countries tax rates are click below. (Go Canada)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates
http://taxfoundation.org/article/corporate-income-tax-rates-around-world-2014

  If you want to see a mass exodus from this country (worse than it is) just follow the above formula for disaster. 
  I&#8217;m not overly excited about what corporate CEO&#8217;s make now and I wasn&#8217;t keen on what they made in the 70&#8217;s or 80&#8217;s ether. But the truth is what they make as obscene as it is doesn&#8217;t make a bit of difference in the big picture. Tax them 100% if you want it&#8217;s a drop in the bucket. It is a hot button to push with people as we just saw done most artfully. I should do a comparison between the salaries of an NFL top player and the peanut vendor between 1950 to today. I&#8217;m sure the outrage would burn down all the stadiums. Those fat cat one percenters quarterbacks. 

  Something to ponder is how Canada is doing it. take a look at the charts above.


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## bud16415

Justin Bieber at 17 made more money than all but the top 3 CEO in the USA. Oprah made 3 times the highest paid CEO in 2011. Kim Kardashian makes more than the CEO of Conoco Phillips. 

We talked about going to a movie last night to get out of the house Tues is the only day we go as its half price day with a free hand full of popcorn in a little bag. We decided at half price there wasn&#8217;t still anything worth wasting 20 bucks on. It got me wondering today how many times salary the top actors make compared to the lowest guy on the set. Hmmm I would think there is some guy fetching coffee or some woman cooking lunch that must make something like 10 bucks an hour. I can&#8217;t really find how many hours an actor has to put in to make a two hour movie though. I know they get 10 or 15 million for the job and it takes sometimes 6 months to make a movie. Not sure if they work all the time though. Let&#8217;s say it takes 6 months and they work 10 hours per day 7 days per week, that&#8217;s 1800 hours and make 10 million that&#8217;s $5555 per hour and the poor soup lady makes 10 bucks and hour that&#8217;s 555 times as much. No wonder it costs me 40 or 50 bucks to go to a movie. It&#8217;s all those actors fault we should fix them we should tax the crap out of them like 90% at least I mean a million bucks for 6 months work they won&#8217;t be hurting still and I bet they get free lunches to boot. That will bring my movie night costs down to what it was in the good old days. Wait no it won&#8217;t the guys making the movie still spend 10 million just 9 million goes to the government one million to Arnold. And I still pay 40 bucks to see him blow stuff up. I&#8217;m beginning to think you just can&#8217;t win.  Funny I haven&#8217;t heard a peep out of the Occupy Wallstreet bunch about these actor guys. 

More reading.
http://www.istockanalyst.com/finance/story/5505172/compensation-ceo-vs-celebrities-occupy-wallstreet
oh ok now I get it.
http://www.usmagazine.com/entertain...s-why-actors-make-so-much-money-video-2014511

I do agree George Soros should pay for healthcare for the whole country. He is one of those Koch Brothers right?


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## Chris

I am locking this thread as it served its purpose and is no longer doing any good.

The end........


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