# Moving 220v Appliance Cable?



## savatreatabvr (Dec 21, 2013)

I raised the ceiling in my kitchen and had all new cabinets installed a few months ago but now I need to move my 220v oven electrical cable over about 2'. This may be a stupid question but can I splice a new piece of cable into the existing cable with cut-in boxes and wire nuts or do I need special 220v electrical boxes and wire nuts? I looked online but couldn't find much info!


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## CallMeVilla (Dec 21, 2013)

Yes, you can use a junction box for the splice to extend your 220V wring.  You are not allowed to bury the box in the wall ... it must be accessible from the outside.

The splice is done with wire nuts and I would tape each of them too.  Make sure you have appropriate connectors for the wire inside the box.

As to the cut-in box ... yes you can but I would use a deep two gang box because your typical 220v wiring needs the space.  Obviously, it need a blank cover as well.


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## JoeD (Dec 21, 2013)

If the cable is four wire including a ground you can extend it. 
If it is only a three wire cable then you are not permitted to extend it by code. You need to replace the entire cable.


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## savatreatabvr (Dec 22, 2013)

JoeD said:


> If the cable is four wire including a ground you can extend it.
> If it is only a three wire cable then you are not permitted to extend it by code. You need to replace the entire cable.



That really bites but I do want to comply with all electrical codes! Is there a chance anybody knows WHY the 3 wire can't be spliced and the 4 wire can or do they not explain why in the code book?


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## Wuzzat? (Dec 22, 2013)

savatreatabvr said:


> That really bites but I do want to comply with all electrical codes! Is there a chance anybody knows WHY the 3 wire can't be spliced and the 4 wire can or do they not explain why in the code book?


Yeah, somebody knows why.  Will they tell you?  Not likely.  Transparency for large, powerful organizations is hard to come by. 

Physically this makes no sense to me.  How do the splices know how many conductors the other splices are connecting?

Even if a splice failed you've got a metal box around it *and* you would see symptoms of a failing splice.  When the appliance is off there is no current flow and so a splice failure is irrelevant.
And just like GFCI tests, once/month you could check ground conductor integrity.

If wirenuts make you nervous you could maybe use crimp type connectors.  And an outer, much larger metal box with a smoke detector inside. 

I doubt that the NFPA will explain their reasoning - I asked them about a related issue and their answer did not give me a warm fuzzy feeling.
And the 2014 Code changes seem to show that selling new hardware is the main thing, regardless of how much additional safety you get or don't get for each additional dollar spent.  Not to mention all the false alarms with AFCIs and some GFCIs.


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## JoeD (Dec 22, 2013)

Three wire appliance circuits such as stove and dryer, are no longer permitted. Existing three wire circuits are allowed to remain. However if you modify the circuit you need to bring it up to current code. Extending a circuit is considered modifying it.

If you can find a way to move the cable without extending it, then you can leave it.


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## Wuzzat? (Dec 23, 2013)

JoeD said:


> Three wire appliance circuits such as stove and dryer, are no longer permitted. Existing three wire circuits are allowed to remain. However if you modify the circuit you need to bring it up to current code. Extending a circuit is considered modifying it.
> 
> If you can find a way to move the cable without extending it, then you can leave it.


Do you have a contact for someone knowledgeable in the Canadian Code?  
I'd think they'd be more forthcoming about the workings of the code-making committees than the NFPA.
The IEEE sometimes does studies for these regulations but they want bucks for everything they put out, and I haven't been a member for quite a while.


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## nealtw (Dec 23, 2013)

As I understand it, if you do anything with wires in the kitchen, then the whole kitchen has to be brought up to code.


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## JoeD (Dec 23, 2013)

Wuzzat? said:


> Do you have a contact for someone knowledgeable in the Canadian Code?



I do not. The code is issued and I follow it.


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## Wuzzat? (Dec 24, 2013)

JoeD said:


> I do not. The code is issued and I follow it.


In that case I hope the Canadian code balances 
safety vs. cost to the consumer 
moreso than the NEC.

Some time ago the NEC required GFCIs in car washes even though there has never been an incident and I think the changes for 2014 take this even further, with GFCIs and AFCIs now required in many locations.

The NIST maintains standards for industry and science but AFAIK there is no "standard arc" (I asked them) so I wonder how the AFCI people even know if their devices work.
For go/no-go devices the benchmark is how many false positive and false negative responses these things produce.  Both errors cannot be minimized at the same time and apparently the false positives are in the majority.

FUD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt
seems to sell the NEC as well as the AFCIs, and many other things to many people.


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## CallMeVilla (Dec 24, 2013)

I understand your frustration Wuzzat ... but the decision is binary if the Inspector is involved:  "Follow the code or no check off."

If the Inspector is not involved and your license is on the line, what do you choose to do?  If you are the homeowner in a DIY situation, can you decide to do what is cost effective, safe and NOT in strict compliance?  Well, that is the question ....


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## Wuzzat? (Dec 24, 2013)

This discussion has clarified this issue for me somewhat.  
If a splice is OK in many situations it seems a contradiction to not allow it in this cable lengthening scenario.  Orwell might call this "doublethink."

Yes, licensed tradespeople have to follow the code.  Their job is held hostage.

I e-mailed Ideal Industries with questions about the contact resistance and reliability of their Wirenuts.  We'll see what happens.

If you had a current carrying cable with no splices, one splices or up to X number of splices, at what value of X would you be able to detect that there even was one splice?  This is a basement project for me after Christmas.

This brings up a testing issue for the DIYer.  By measuring the voltage drop along the cable and the current drawn and comparing this V/I resistance value to the AWG table, he or she can measure the integrity of the splices as often as wanted.


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## CallMeVilla (Dec 24, 2013)

This also raises craftsmanship issues.  Some sloppy work in splicing would have wires stuck into a wire nut, which is then twisted.

Proper procedure means twisting the conductors with a pair of lineman pliers to get a tight twist, then trimmed, before inseting into the wire nut.  The nut is further twisted, then taped.

The first example might result in a much different reading from the second example, yes?


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## nealtw (Dec 24, 2013)

It's not if the cable and splice will do the job, it is that the cable is no longer up to code, which is fine untill you work on it. Even a homeowner can run into problems with this when selling a house, if the buyer knows when the kitchen was updated and the home inspector catches it.


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## JoeD (Dec 24, 2013)

This thread is going off topic.
Twisting wire is NOT required when applying wire nuts.


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## Wuzzat? (Dec 25, 2013)

With more than two wires I've found that middle wires may not be clamped against the others properly.  They remain straight.

In this situation I usually twist with pliers and then trim the ends to equal length.

Speaking of craftsmanship, a basement room job done by amateurs had a half volt extra voltage for the 20' or 30' length of #12 when I was pulling 10A through that branch and the tenant was complaining about flickering lights.
It was a wirenut with three wires with the center wire barely holding and straight.  
A half volt at 10A is 5w, quite a bit of power to be dissipated in something as small as a wirenut.

The guy also had a three way switch arrangement and I insisted on testing all four combinations before they put the drop ceiling in place.  Sure enough, it was only partially working.

There still may be some problems lurking in that place.



In some counties you can take an exam and then wire your own house to Code so you will save the labor cost.

And there are probably connectors way more reliable than Wirenuts that don't depend so much on operator skill,  but maybe less convenient to work with.


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## savatreatabvr (Dec 27, 2013)

Wuzzat? said:


> With more than two wires I've found that middle wires may not be clamped against the others properly.  They remain straight.
> 
> In this situation I usually twist with pliers and then trim the ends to equal length.
> 
> ...



If there are orange, yellow, red and blue wire nuts then what's connectors are used for larger gauge wire?


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## Wuzzat? (Dec 27, 2013)

http://www.idealindustries.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=wire-nut&div=0&l1=twist-on&l2=wire-nut
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

There's another thing about extending cable lengths.  
Let's say you have two wirenuts for each outlet in your house.  By adding four more to your house total, how much is the safety of your house compromised?

Split bolt connectors (insulated?) are probably superior in terms of initial safety and safety over their lifetime.


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## savatreatabvr (Dec 27, 2013)

Wuzzat? said:


> http://www.idealindustries.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=wire-nut&div=0&l1=twist-on&l2=wire-nut
> and
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge
> 
> ...



Thank you for the links although I don't trust "wikipedia.org" much do to the fact that anyone can edit the contents.


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## Wuzzat? (Dec 29, 2013)

savatreatabvr said:


> Thank you for the links although I don't trust "wikipedia.org" much do to the fact that anyone can edit the contents.


[ame]http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=%22credibility+of+wikipedia%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8[/ame]


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## savatreatabvr (Dec 30, 2013)

Wuzzat? said:


> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q="credibility+of+wikipedia"&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8



Yes I know all about Google Search and I use it frequently but the reason I post questions on this forum is to socialize with other members and hear there input and experiences with my subject! :2cents:


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## Wuzzat? (Dec 31, 2013)

savatreatabvr said:


> Yes I know all about Google Search and I use it frequently but the reason I post questions on this forum is to socialize with other members and hear there input and experiences with my subject! :2cents:



"Thank you for the links although I don't trust "wikipedia.org" much do to the fact that anyone can edit the contents."

There seems to be a logical flaw in here somewhere with distrusting Wiki but using Google so the new problem for me is not Wirenut colors but finding and "articulating" the flaw (out of maybe 80 listed on Wikipedia).  :  
My end-of-the-year plate is kinda' full but I'll be in touch (which is sort of socializing, or at least a promise of future socializing).


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## Wuzzat? (Jan 2, 2014)

Excerpts from IDEAL's answer:
Wire-Nuts meet the requirements for IEC standard 998-1. [for contact resistance]
The product is typically intended [to last] for 30  years.


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## savatreatabvr (Jan 6, 2014)

Wuzzat? said:


> Excerpts from IDEAL's answer:
> Wire-Nuts meet the requirements for IEC standard 998-1. [for contact resistance]
> The product is typically intended [to last] for 30  years.



Yes but I believe on the IDEAL'S packaging, (_I don't have it in front of me_) but it says, (_correct me if i'm wrong_) to only use one 6 gauge wire under one large blue wire nut. The reason I started this tread was to find out what wire nuts were used for two 6 gauge wires, if only one 6 gauge wire is rated for one large blue wire nut then the next step up would be an enormous wire nut, lol! I think I'm simply not understanding which wire nuts are meant for what gauges of wire.


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## JoeD (Jan 6, 2014)

Well it depends on which version of the Ideal nut you use. Only the Wing Nut version can accept #6 cable. Here is the specs from the web site.

454®
Blue 	
600V*
#14 thru #6 AWG
Min. 3 #12
Max. 2 #6 w/ 1 #12


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## Wuzzat? (Jan 6, 2014)

Behind these specs must be a max & min number of circular mils that these devices can handle, among other constraints.

I can't imagine anybody makes a Wirenut for #30 AWG.


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## savatreatabvr (Jan 14, 2014)

Wuzzat? said:


> Behind these specs must be a max & min number of circular mils that these devices can handle, among other constraints.
> 
> I can't imagine anybody makes a Wirenut for #30 AWG.



Well if it's against code to splice a 6/3 cable then what's used to splice a 6/4 cable which is code compliant?


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## Wuzzat? (Jan 14, 2014)

savatreatabvr said:


> Well if it's against code to splice a 6/3 cable then what's used to splice a 6/4 cable which is code compliant?


You'll need a Sparky to answer this.

BTW, I found at least one logical inconsistency in the NEC.  If you believe that statements like
"If the shoe fits, wear it" 
says anything about the other three cases then you also may be mislead by the NEC.

To me, the NEC is slightly less arbitrary than the 6000 page Tax Code of the U.S..  But I think there is a bias in both. . .which is that the U.S. Treasury and the NEMA will never come out on the short ends of these sticks when dealing with the average homeowner or taxpayer.

From a physics point of view, high and sustained contact force over the life of the device in a splicing method is virtually as safe as a non-spliced cable because it reduces the contact resistance to near zero.  For the real world, splices are contained in fire-resistant boxes.


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## JoeD (Jan 15, 2014)

savatreatabvr said:


> Well if it's against code to splice a 6/3 cable then what's used to splice a 6/4 cable which is code compliant?


It think it should read a 6/2 and 6/3 cable. The ground does not count.
It is not against code to splice 6/2  cable. It is against code to extend the a 6/2 cable in a location where current code requires use of a 6/3 cable. A welder or 240 volt compressor for example do not require a neutral so it would not be a problem to extend a 6/2 cable in this case. A dryer or stove which requires a neutral would be a problem to extend a 6/2 cable.
To extend any cable you need a junction box with a cover in an accessible location.


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## Wuzzat? (Jan 15, 2014)

JoeD said:


> It think it should read a 6/2 and 6/3 cable. The ground does not count.
> It is not against code to splice 6/2  cable. It is against code to extend the a 6/2 cable in a location where current code requires use of a 6/3 cable. A welder or 240 volt compressor for example do not require a neutral so it would not be a problem to extend a 6/2 cable in this case. A dryer or stove which requires a neutral would be a problem to extend a 6/2 cable.
> To extend any cable you need a junction box with a cover in an accessible location.


This is about the clearest explanation I've seen on what you can and cannot do according to code.  Thank you.

For the sake of running through all code-compliant options, can the OP then run a separate single conductor from the load center to the destination appliance to provide a neutral for his 6/2 cable?


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## JoeD (Jan 15, 2014)

It depends what type of cable is currently used. If the current cable has a white wire to be used as neutral I believe he can. However many of these instals use a type cable that has ground wire braided around the the other wires and that can not be used a neutral wire.


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## Wuzzat? (Jan 15, 2014)

^
Got it.


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