# New shop and winter



## Chris

So I am moving soon and it cold where I am going. What tips can you guys give me about anything to worry about or things I should do with having my new shop and it being below freezing. Right now it is 10 degreed with a high of 26 for a couple days.


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## oldognewtrick

Plenty of firewood.


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## beachguy005

Remember to not store anything in there that will freeze such as glues or paint.


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## oldognewtrick

Or pressure washers,


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## KULTULZ

Are you planning on heating the shop?

You are tough if you don't... :hide:


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## Chris

Is there a way to efficiently heat a shop all winter? I have a diesel heater for when I am out there but nothing for the rest of the time.


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## bud16415

It will cost you a bundle to heat unless it is insulated like a home and then will cost a lot as garage doors dont seal like you would want. First everything has to be winterized. If you have a pressure washer get an RV plumbing blow out adapter. Female hose fitting on one end and valve stem on the other. After each use hook the air up and blow out the water. Empty fuel tanks or leave them full with stabilizer in the gas. 

My garage is old and drafty but I do use it that much in the winter and a torpedo heater will warm it up enough if you need to do a repair. What I did was leave the main shop cold and I have one small room 14 x 14 that I insulated and can keep warm if I want. All my good tools live in there. Couple work benches and just a place to go to warm up if Im out in the main garage doing something. I heat the small shop with propane now so I dont heat it all winter. If I need to be out there I light it up and in about 20 minutes it is nice and in an hour it is house nice. Forget wood as a heat source in a big garage even if the wood is free. I had a wood setup and I would fire it up on a Saturday morning and freeze all day working out there as it brought all the mass up to temp. about 8:00 at night the place would be warm and I would shut it down and go in the house. 

The problem with heat and cold is your tools will want to rust. Keep stuff oiled up.

Old time light bulbs work best as they come right on. down around -30 those tube lights never light up for me. When you wind up your hoses make sure you lift them as you coil them to get any water out. cheap plastic hoses get as stiff as PVC pipe when it hits zero. All good rubber hoses up north. All my cars and trucks have two sets of rims and winter tires with studs. Even the 4WD truck isnt good on ice without studs. Everything you put in the ground go down at least 4. 

The best part is when spring comes and everything looks greener than you can believe after a winter of white.

PS if you do make a winter shop put hot water heat in the floors.


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## nealtw

Overhead radient gas tube.
http://www.sunstarheaters.com/product/sir-series/


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## slownsteady

Diesels are hard to start in cold weather. You may need engine heaters. On really cold nights, some operators leave the engine running all night. I'm not a diesel guy, so someone else may correct me or fill in details.


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## Chris

I have two diesel trucks and I did grow up in the snow and cold so I am not a novice but haven't lived it it for 20 years. I just want ot be informed as possible on everything.


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## nealtw

Hope you looked after outside taps. Turned off inside or disconnected hoses.


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## KULTULZ

slownsteady said:


> Diesels are hard to start in cold weather. You may need engine heaters. On really cold nights, some operators leave the engine running all night. I'm not a diesel guy, so someone else may correct me or fill in details.



Ah, the old days of compression releases and either injection... :down:

You want block (coolant) heaters and a warming blanket (plug in) under the battery pack. A fuel separator to remove water from the diesel fuel (heated versions available) and a fuel conditioner (to prevent waxing).

It's really hard on a diesel to allow to idle as the engine will load-up with fuel (even electronic controlled) and dilute the engine oil (not to mention the cost of fuel).

 *FORGOT!*

Those damn glow plugs... 

Winter Fronts...


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## bud16415

One thing I forgot to mention about long cold winters up north that is a must. (Antifreeze) not the kind you put in radiators but the kind intended for human consumption. My blend of choice is called the Long Island Ice Tea. 

You are no longer in the land of go, go,go. It is a hard habit to break. Just like the bears hibernate winter is a good time to regroup and spend time with family staying warm in doors playing board games with the kids or venture outside and help them build a snow fort. 

Your cost of living will adjust and you will find a couple months of a slower pace won&#8217;t be hard too take. 

Last night I made dinner we had some wine and our two choices for the evening where do we go in the hot tub or do we go into the home theater and watch a movie. Seeing as how it was still nice out we went for the movie. Tonight, we are expected to get 1 to 2 feet of lake effect snow now that will be a great hot tubbing night.


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## Chris

That is what I am looking forward to. I am great at saving money so planning ahead for winters is not a big deal. I still haven't decided 100% what I will do for work when I get there. So far I am leaning towards flipping a few homes while also doing tractor work on the side. Or just buying a few rentals and not having bills.

For tractors I have paid off and will be taking with me these

2011 enclosed cab John deere 310j backhoe 4x4

2008 open cab John deere 210le skip loader

2007 open cab bobcat 331 excavator

2004 enclosed cab CAT 246 skid steer. I have most attachments they make for the skid steer.

Both the backhoe and skid steer can be used for snow removal as well.

I really can't wait for the slow down, it has been a few years since I have been able to focus on any of my hobbies.


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## bud16415

You won&#8217;t have a  problem finding work for you and your machines. As I mentioned before make the necessary adjustments coming from the land of good and plenty. Housing costs will be lower but so will rents. Things will be much freer and easy with the excavation work and maybe a lot more old school than what you are used to. Find the stuff no one is doing or not doing a good job at and jump in. 

Also plan on competition from fly by night companies that wouldn&#8217;t last in the land of rules and regulations. It is the down side of living where everything isn&#8217;t regulated.


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## buffalo

I've owned diesels all my life . My cummins starts right up at 0F , although two years ago it was real cold , and not much you can do when the fuel gels , additives and all . I wouldn't heat a shop unless your gonna work In  it all day , it will get expensive . Natural gas is probably the cheapest route here , 2 of my friends have geothermal which is really efficient , but a major upfront  cost .

I love my area , but I hate the cold ! Our first snow is happening as I type . Lake effect coming in , there saying ski  country 2-3 feet . I say just hide inside for 2-3 months lol. Hence I'm working in the basement .....


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## bud16415

buffalo said:


> Our first snow is happening as I type . Lake effect coming in , there saying ski  country 2-3 feet . ..



Its coming right thru here on the way to you. I will make sure we leave some of the white stuff for you.


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## buffalo

bud16415 said:


> Its coming right thru here on the way to you. I will make sure we leave some of the white stuff for you.



That's kind of you , but I insist , you take it! Lol

My lot truck , 03 f250 , has a nice power steering leak , I think it's on a high pressure line . No way I'm trying to fix it now in the cold , and Im a month out of surgery on a tendon in my arm so I'm kinda handicap . The sad thing is , plowing my driveway is the most fun I have during winter !! She pumps heat in the cab lol. 

I think we should get under a foot in my neighborhood,  how much you getting ?


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## bud16415

buffalo said:


> That's kind of you , but I insist , you take it! Lol
> 
> My lot truck , 03 f250 , has a nice power steering leak , I think it's on a high pressure line . No way I'm trying to fix it now in the cold , and Im a month out of surgery on a tendon in my arm so I'm kinda handicap . The sad thing is , plowing my driveway is the most fun I have during winter !! She pumps heat in the cab lol.
> 
> I think we should get under a foot in my neighborhood,  how much you getting ?



I agree my 00 GMC 2500 warms right up plowing. There is a reason the plow guy has his window down. Nothing is more fun (well almost nothing) than going across a parking lot windrowing at 3:00 am and the snow is about 6 deep and cold frozen crystals that go off the end of the plow like a wave of water spilling 20 or more feet from the blade. Once the windrow is about 30 high and the rubber flap on the plow is up and that old 4WD low range is really digging in. Dang thats some good fun. 

They say 1 to 2 feet in the snow belt south of I90 around rt 6. Thats right in my back yard. 

Dont take a chance with the tendon. Have someone else fix it if you need to.


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## Chris

bud16415 said:


> You wont have a  problem finding work for you and your machines. As I mentioned before make the necessary adjustments coming from the land of good and plenty. Housing costs will be lower but so will rents. Things will be much freer and easy with the excavation work and maybe a lot more old school than what you are used to. Find the stuff no one is doing or not doing a good job at and jump in.
> 
> Also plan on competition from fly by night companies that wouldnt last in the land of rules and regulations. It is the down side of living where everything isnt regulated.



Good thing I do a good job at whatever work I am doing, usually go above and beyond. Hoping I can find something I can jump into. I also own a dump truck so even with that I can find work.



buffalo said:


> I've owned diesels all my life . My cummins starts right up at 0F , although two years ago it was real cold , and not much you can do when the fuel gels , additives and all . I wouldn't heat a shop unless your gonna work In  it all day , it will get expensive . Natural gas is probably the cheapest route here , 2 of my friends have geothermal which is really efficient , but a major upfront  cost .
> 
> I love my area , but I hate the cold ! Our first snow is happening as I type . Lake effect coming in , there saying ski  country 2-3 feet . I say just hide inside for 2-3 months lol. Hence I'm working in the basement .....



I have two Cummins now and have had many Ford diesels. My Cummins have never given me a cold start issue. I used to have to plug my ford in when it was below freezing.

The cold is why I bought the house I bought, It has a large Finished basement and a couple extra hobby rooms. I can probably keep busy down their most of the winter.


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## Chris

I was at the new house last week and the daytime high was about 25. Low was -4. I used my 75000 btu diesel jet heater to warm the shop. It did ok but I don't like the smell it puts off. If I open up the shop enough that it doesn't smell then it doesn't warm. What other options do I have? I was thinking a simple propane wall heater like you see in homes or putting in a wood burning stove. I like the idea of the wood stove for longer days in the shop.


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## Mastercarpenty

The propane powered space heaters have almost no odors or fumes but fuel costs are about double that of the kerosene models. Heating large open spaces is a no-win situation where all you can do is keep your losses down to a minimum. 

Phil


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## Chris

The first floor of the shop is 30x 40 with about a 10 foot tall ceiling. All drywalled but not sure if it is insulated.


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## frodo

Chris said:


> The first floor of the shop is 30x 40 with about a 10 foot tall ceiling. All drywalled but not sure if it is insulated.




find a 150 gallon propane tank...fill it with water and get all the residual gas out,

rocket mass heater.


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## Chris

Is the 3 inch vent the chimney?


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## havasu

Looks like a bomb to me.


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## frodo

Chris said:


> Is the 3 inch vent the chimney?



the 4'' pipe inside of the tank is the chimney,  the 3'' is a vent.

the way it is set up. you get max heat out of the firebox before the heat is sucked out the vent


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## frodo

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfAHASx50B8"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfAHASx50B8[/ame]


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## frodo

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Hd36FQfiGY"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Hd36FQfiGY[/ame]


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## Chris

That's pretty neat.


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## bud16415

A lot of people built different forms of that type of stove around here. Do a search on &#8220;DIY downdraft wood stoves&#8221; and you will find all kind of information. 

Wood is ok but also a lot of work or money. If you cut your own you have to cut it and haul it and then split it and stack it then wait a year for it to dry and then haul it in and burn it and then haul the ash out. The serious people around here have an outside wood burner boiler with underground PEX insulated pipes and then in their building they have in floor heat tubing or heat exchangers. Most build a pole building to hold all the wood and the burner. It keeps all the mess out of the shop plus who wants half their heated shop full of wood. These burners only need stoked every other day. I have a friend that has one that takes a full pallet of wood and he loads it with forks on his skid steer. Spring and fall it runs a few days as you adjust the burn rate. Check with your insurance company about burning wood or coal as they might have a lot to say about what setup you use. 

Wood to me is how you value your time if you can be working your equipment and making money the time you spend messing around with wood is costing you money. And the non vented oil heaters give me a headache in a short time. they are great if you need to work in a cold place for a short time but for all day usage I don&#8217;t like them. I keep my big garage unheated and time my work in there for mild days and then have my small work shop I can heat with propane and do stuff on the work benches. 

If you go with wood check around if there are any local saw mills that sell slab wood. My nephew buys a huge load from the Amish for cheep and cuts it to length with an electric chain saw.


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## Chris

I am not a huge fan of wood myself but so far it is the only thing I can tolerate all day in a shop. I won't be using my shop daily but I want to be able to use my shop when I want and not have to schedule around the weather. My house is all electric so I will be burning fires there most of the winter as well so wood makes sense. A wall heater is probably more efficient but then I will be buying propane every day or two unless I get a large tank. Wall heater also takes up less room which is important.

Explain these boiler systems a little better to me?


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## nealtw

The boiler in an out building is the ticket and you build it big enough to handle the house too.
http://www.instructables.com/id/outdoor-wood-boiler-from-junk/


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## Chris

nealtw said:


> The boiler in an out building is the ticket and you build it big enough to handle the house too.
> http://www.instructables.com/id/outdoor-wood-boiler-from-junk/



My house is 250 feet away from my shop and about 40 higher in elevation.


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## nealtw

Chris said:


> My house is 250 feet away from my shop and about 40 higher in elevation.



http://guelph.ca/2014/01/guelph-beg...icas-first-city-wide-district-energy-network/

I don't know about the hill but I talked to one guy that buried the pipe deep in sand and no insulation. He said his ground water was stable and didn't move much so the hot pipe  would heat the sand and ground water and he would still get heat for a day after the boiler went down.

There was a gravel pit here that built a shop and put under floor heat in with an oil fired boiler. After a few years it sprang a leak in the under floor pipe and they shut it down. They discovered the floor was still warm days later.
They changed the system to add hot water to the sand under the floor and pumped water from under the floor at the other end of the building.


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## frodo

Chris said:


> That's pretty neat.



it works, I have a small one I made for cooking in the yard, I use only sticks that fall ouff the trees

radiant heat..with the flat top,  you can keep your coffee pot warm,  heat a tortilla


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## frodo

I think . if you have a 200 amp service in the shop.
that you would be happier with a vertical heat/ac  house unit.

stick it in a corner, build a 2' high wood box. sheet rocked on the inside with a 20x20 opening for a fliter
set he unit on top of it.  and a small plenium, let the air blow out the top
1 ton should be big enough


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## Chris

Never seen one. Is it just a forced air unit? Will it suck the power?


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## havasu

A Geothermal heat pump is what I would be investing in.


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## frodo

Chris said:


> Never seen one. Is it just a forced air unit? Will it suck the power?



a lot cheaper than propane,  you will not be running it all the time
or turn the stat down to 50 when not in the shop.


it is a split system,  ac compressor outside, and the heat strip/ac fan is inside
the inside unit,  sits on a 3'x3' x 2' tall box  that is the reurn air
the unit itself is about 5' long


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## Chris

Is that the same as a mini split system?


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## frodo

Chris said:


> Is that the same as a mini split system?



yes.   the unit i drew is usually in a closet or in the attic



you remember 2 years ago i put a new one in my house


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## oldognewtrick

Talk to MustangeGarage and see how he heats his shop.


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## bud16415

Here are a few pics I found that will give you an idea. Electric heat is going to be $$$ in the house. Too bad the shop is so far from the house. I don't know the reasonable distance for a system that you could share between the two. but if the lines are insulated maybe it is possible.  

The reason for keeping wood and stove outside are many. One big one is bugs. I had a friend that put 10 cord of wood in his basement only to find he brought in ants that hatched out in the back of the pile. His whole basement was solid full of wood.


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## frodo

Chris said:


> The first floor of the shop is 30x 40 with about a 10 foot tall ceiling. All drywalled but not sure if it is insulated.




30 x 40  3x4-12-1200 sq ft plus  1/4 of 1200==300

1500 sq ft is what you need to heat for 10 ft ceilings

30 x 40  is 1200.  that is based on 8'ceiling
that leaves 2'  not calculated
2' is 25% of 10'  and 25% of 1200 is 300

1200 plus 300  is 1500 sq ft  to be heated

http://www.acdirect.com/electric-furnaces-learning-center-sizing-calculator

you need a 3 ton cfm  17KW 58,000 btu  heating element


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