# Water drainage hole?



## jmr106

While completing a project of removing an old cast iron drain pipe and converting it to pvc, I've noticed something. I've been dealing with the "problem hole" ( dug out area of the crawlspace with a retaining wall around it; heating/air system and water heater sit in it and are at risk for flood if pumps fail or power is lost) for a while now and trying to figure out a solution. It only takes on water when it rains a lot. 2-3 days of moderate to heavy rain can bring in tens of gallons per minute. During a local flash flood warning (pretty rare for our area and we live on a street with a hill), I have seen both pumps kick on and stay on for a considerable amount of time. Water did not go above the said makeshift sump hole that exists there, but it also wasn't really going down very fast, either. Those pumps throw out about 100+ gallons per minute with both pumps running. They were keeping it in check and it didn't creep out of the hole, but waterflow was coming in so far as areas all around the wall that they both stayed on for a while. That's not a normal event and may only happen during big rain systems.

On the back side of the wall to the left of the water heater, there's the base cinderblock that is turned sideways to let water out of the wall. There are many of these around the wall in various places. That particular one gets most of the water flow out of it for some reason. Tonight when I was fixing a pipe, I saw this on the other side of the wall:








The three other sides of the wall do not have this big opening there between the wall and the dirt. I presume that when they were digging this hole to put up the wall, they either dug too far/long and decided to leave some space or...most of the dirt visible on the floor inside of the hole has been washed down from this particular side. Both could be feasible. In the photo above, the foundation wall of the house is behind me about 3 feet or so.

The next photo is from the area at the bottom right of the above photo:

That little gulley there apparently gets the water flow. I see this "hole" in the dirt under where I took the above photo from:






At first I thought, "Are those clam shells?!?" when I saw the white things at the bottom. I'm not quite sure what those are. The dark pieces literally look like a bunch of walnuts or pecans or something with holes in them. I've never seen any squirrels in the basement. The "white" pieces look like a cross between half egg shells and sometimes it looks like some kind of plastic bottle lids at other angles. 

I stuck the camera down as far as I could down in front of the hole and saw this:







Since water flows from that side the most and this hole literally looks like some kind of solid and regular hole that the water flows in through during heavy rains, it brings a lot of questions to mind:

If that dirt in fact washed in from behind the wall and into the hole inside of the retaining wall, how is it that there is a single base hole at the bottom of it and not a long "gash" hole from top to bottom as it eroded away?

Even if the dirt was dug out that way, what would cause a single hole like this? I didn't expect to see such a thing. I figured that water just comes in from dirt surrounding the wall and that was that. I guess the water "could" carve such a path through the dirt and some of it may have been more hard packed than the other parts, so a hole formed. I don't understand why that didn't happen above or on either side since it is the same type of dirt.

I'm pretty much wondering if this random hole is where most of the water flow is coming from. Something related to a cracked foundation somewhere underground? A old bad drain outside funneling water under the house? None of the other 3 sides of the wall have this. I have even entertained the idea of an intermittent stream running underneath the house. Old 1927-1930 topo maps actually show  that one was near or under this house and ran from some random place up the street all the way down to the end of the street. However, on later topo maps, that intermittent stream is no longer there.

What the heck could this be? I'll be checking it when we get a lot of rain again and see if water flows out of there. If it does...how do I determine what it is and what is causing it?


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## nealtw

They likely back filled what they thought was a dry ditch when they built the house. And maybe when the basement was dug out they didn't see it, there must have been an exit hole to , if you new where that was you could just pipe a connection and then pump a lot less water.


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## jmr106

nealtw said:


> They likely back filled what they thought was a dry ditch when they built the house. And maybe when the basement was dug out they didn't see it, there must have been an exit hole to , if you new where that was you could just pipe a connection and then pump a lot less water.



Could be. My curiosity gets the best of me in situations like this just because that irritating part of me wants to "know" for no reason at all. Especially since they've dealt with it over the years and nobody knew what to do. Once I get the old sewer pipe fixed in hopefully a week or two, I'll have a new water heater put in (that one is many years old and has flooded at least once) and elevated as high as possible. Shortly after that, I'll get several estimates of flipping that system or putting in a similar/possibly smaller system if a new one would be the same price of flipping it. Bring in the gravel to fill that hole up about halfway or more, put the proper sump basin/pumps in, cover the top of that gravel with poly and probably call it a day after that. 

Among my next thoughts are figuring out how to get that much gravel down there. I'm not about to have a huge dump truck or similar truck risk a drive over the back yard. I'll probably just have them dump it in the edge of the back yard and take it to the crawlspace. That's quite a lot of cubic meters of crushed gravel. I might make some kind of makeshift ramp that goes from outside of the crawlspace door and will let me just sort of push it down into the hole from there. Or I could get something like those big plastic cement mixer pans, fill it with gravel and push that inside of the door on something that will let it slide. Get it to the edge of the hole and dump it in quantity. Quite eager to get that done in the near future. June through November is hurricane season. We've been missed by the tropical storms and such so far that have skimmed up the coast.


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## nealtw

http://www.flipdocs.com/showbook.aspx?ID=10017934_143812

rent a small conveyor for moving it under the house, most tool rental stores can find these, sometimes the people that sell gravel have small ones for jobs like yours.
First place to try, if you have a United Tool Rental.


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## nealtw

Just wondering, I see the egg shells and nut shells, what is the black stuff, burnt wood? 
It would have been common practice to pile up wood waist and burn it, if they used that for fill it might have made a perfect home for rodents.
You said this water is worst when you have days of rain, I wonder if it is bad when the water fills the yard to reach a rodent tunnel, if you could find that you might fill it with grout and plug the intake.
You might find the intake when the yard is full of water, by spreading a little sawdust so you could see where the water is draining too.


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## slownsteady

If you have a window into the crawlspace from the front or side of the house, you can make/rent a chute for the gravel.
Just a thought, but that water channel that you discovered might be a major source of all your water worries. I would be inclined to check that out before the other projects. You may get a shorter list if you can make an improvement there.


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## jmr106

nealtw said:


> Just wondering, I see the egg shells and nut shells, what is the black stuff, burnt wood? It would have been common practice to pile up wood waist and burn it, if they used that for fill it might have made a perfect home for rodents.
> You said this water is worst when you have days of rain, I wonder if it is bad when the water fills the yard to reach a rodent tunnel, if you could find that you might fill it with grout and plug the intake.
> You might find the intake when the yard is full of water, by spreading a little sawdust so you could see where the water is draining too.



I'll try to use something to get a piece of each of those and see what it is when I go back down there. 

As far as I can tell, the water starts when the ground outside becomes completely saturated. It begins as a small amount that becomes enough to start running into the floor of the hole to make the pump go off every 10-15 minutes. As it continues to rain more and more, the flow increases. 2-3 days of moderate to heavy rain can typically cause it to come on and pump about 60 gallons out every 2-3 minutes in the worst of cases. I have looked around the house and part of the yard closer to the house...I don't really see any rodent tunnels that I haven't taken care of. The absolute worst that I have seen was when it rained for 2-3 days and then I got a text alert one morning that "flash flooding with begin in xx minutes."  I've checked FEMA maps and such. It isn't within a flood plain.


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## jmr106

slownsteady said:


> If you have a window into the crawlspace from the front or side of the house, you can make/rent a chute for the gravel.
> Just a thought, but that water channel that you discovered might be a major source of all your water worries. I would be inclined to check that out before the other projects. You may get a shorter list if you can make an improvement there.




Nope, not a single window. Just the one crawlspace door and 7 crawlspace vents (sideways cinderblocks built into the foundation). The pump end of the hole is about 6 feet inside of the crawlspace door, so my best bet is to go in directly from there and then get a big pile into that side of the hole and just spread it around and push it down to the other side. It will take a lot of work, but will make it cleaner and easier to work down there. I'm still going to get the other stuff done and elevate the equipment. That has sort of become my personal vendetta that nobody else could figure out a way to address. At least that way I won't have to worry about water finding another path. I'm just curious...I may continue my search and see if I can locate anything that may be the source for that. It is mainly my curiosity...

Also, the vent covers. I'm debating back and forth with which ones to seal off completely. I'm using the typical metal vent covers 






Some are already sealed. I have concerns about how many rodents are in the general area (have seen some in the yards next door, as well), so I don't want to leave the dampers parts of the vents open and have a rodent chew through the screen. I have some mesh wire with holes about the size of peas in it that I have pondered putting on the back of some of these vents (particularly the ones closer to where the water heater and system are) so that there can be air flow for the gas furnace and water heater, yet a mouse can't chew through it. The regular screen in addition to the mesh will keep the insects out, but let air through. Think it will work?


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## nealtw

I like that idea on the vents, you do want them open, you will always have lots of moisture and you want to give it a way out.


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## jmr106

Also, I found some curious things when I was in the crawlspace. Ever seen this before? I see them in various places around the foundation. I can't figure out what the point of it is. 






It is like some big rocks stacked on each other within a hole that appears to be cut out of the foundation. Yet they aren't holding anything. I saw maybe 3-4 of these and there may be more elsewhere. What the heck could it be?


I also found this:






The heating/air system and the water heater both vent out of the same water heater stack. This is probably a good 6 feet or more from the back side of the wall, so the system vents a considerable distance. The part that I've circled in red (I don't have a pic of the back side for some reason)...the opposite side has torn away from whatever that white water heater vent is called. So the left half is open. Not good at all. Quite dangerous. We aren't using the furnace now anyway, but I'm going to fix that soon. It just looks like the screws pulled out. Maybe one of the HVAC people that checked the system recently was going under the vent and pulled on it, causing it to come loose.


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## nealtw

Maybe they left holes for the plumber to get his pipes in and plugged the holes later, it looks like the lower rock was up top and fell down.

Maybe the picture of the chimney vent should be posted in HVAC, Is that asbestos wrapping it?


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## jmr106

nealtw said:


> Maybe the picture of the chimney vent should be posted in HVAC, Is that asbestos wrapping it?



I'll do that. Above the crawlspace, this runs into the bathroom closet. It has been painted over so many times over the years that I doubt that there is any threat if it is asbestos. Then on up into the attic and out of the roof, of course. In the bathroom when I knock on it, it feels like just some kind of plain metal under the paint. It has an echo that I would expect for such a metal. It doesn't feel padded or wrapped at all as far as I can tell.


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## nealtw

It should be boxed in the closet with drywall, it's a fire stop thing.


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## nealtw

These guys have a small conveyor 15" by 10 ft $105 a day, Just click on the item and check out and put in your address.
https://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equi...l-conveyors/?gclid=CMS38MKz1s4CFRSPfgod4_EOiA


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## nealtw

http://www.brightdyes.com/quote.html
Different colored dyes could be dumped in different areas of the yard when it rains heavy to find where the water is coming from, it says it is safe and degradable.


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## jmr106

nealtw said:


> It should be boxed in the closet with drywall, it's a fire stop thing.



Erm...not quite at this house. 






I'm going to let someone else deal with that issue, however.


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## nealtw

jmr106 said:


> Erm...not quite at this house.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to let someone else deal with that issue, however.



Just wondering how you are doing?


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## GBR

The dark ones look like chestnut shells that squirrels have already eaten out, possibly washed in from the exterior by the incoming water flow, same with the white (mold) ones. Did the rock chunk break the PVC pipe (drain line; 1-1/2-2") or is that your incoming water supply (1-1/4")? Where is the house that you don't require floor insulation or HVAC duct insulation with joints taped/vapor barrier. Where is the ground vapor barrier plastic? Did you find the source of your water, to have flood vents and fix the exterior downspouts/gutters? Have you watched the water usage on your house city meter for possible rupture/leak causing the damage. That is a lot of extra water, doesn't appear to be clay soil directing it in to your crawlspace.  Appears to be a "grain" pattern in the cloth covering the ducts, don't breath any dust if cutting it- they should take precautions that is is asbestos. Are you at bottom or top of hill?

Gary


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## nealtw

GBR said:


> The dark ones look like chestnut shells that squirrels have already eaten out, possibly washed in from the exterior by the incoming water flow, same with the white (mold) ones. Did the rock chunk break the PVC pipe (drain line; 1-1/2-2") or is that your incoming water supply (1-1/4")? Where is the house that you don't require floor insulation or HVAC duct insulation with joints taped/vapor barrier. Where is the ground vapor barrier plastic? Did you find the source of your water, to have flood vents and fix the exterior downspouts/gutters? Have you watched the water usage on your house city meter for possible rupture/leak causing the damage. That is a lot of extra water, doesn't appear to be clay soil directing it in to your crawlspace.  Appears to be a "grain" pattern in the cloth covering the ducts, don't breath any dust if cutting it- they should take precautions that is is asbestos. Are you at bottom or top of hill?
> 
> Gary


Gary, all these problems are related and we haven't solved anything yet,

He is aware of all these problems, it's more about what can be done and which to do first.
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=19909
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=19967
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=20072
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=20198
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=20338
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=20341
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=20436
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=20502
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=20503
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=20921
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=20922
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=20930


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## jmr106

nealtw said:


> Just wondering how you are doing?



Probably on Sunday, I'm going to change those two air ducts that are basically in the way of the cast iron sewer pipes that I'll be changing out to PVC in the near future. Both of those ducts have been leaked on. I don't know for sure whether they will change the ducts again when they flip the system, but I don't have a choice. Price them around $40-$50 each at Home Depot. With those ducts in the way, I can't even see what goes where or what pieces of pipe I would need ahead of time. I should have taken a photo of it. I saw an R-rating number on the side of one of the ducts. It was R-7 or R-8.  

I now have a 30 watt 3,000 lumen led work light for down there. It can likely just shine up at the floor and will light up a huge area simply from the reflective lighting. Got tired of darkness and awkward lights.

When I change those sewer pipes to PVC, I'll then bring in a plumber to deal with changing the water heater out for a new one. It has some years on it and has been flooded once. I don't want to deal with that later when the flipped system might be in the way. I'll have a couple of plumbers change the water heater out and move that back to the right corner as far as I can get it, elevating it as high as I can get it per code.

Still mulling over precisely what I can put down in that hole to elevate the water heater with that will withstand water and the gravel. Whatever it is, it will have to stay put and will have to have the gravel simply put around it as-is. Trying to put the water heater on top of the gravel after it has been put down is just way too much trouble and would be too far into the future to be feasible. Need something that will last for years. I don't want to mess up anything for the future owners. Trying to factor in that whatever is used may sink into the dirt just a little due to the more concentrated weight (whereas the actual tank sitting on the ground right now has spread-out surface area). Apparently the big cement blocks crack over time. Wooden stands like many people use are not feasible in a hole that would be wet with gravel and water. I like the idea of moving the water heater it in front of the system, but that's likely not going to happen. The vent is too far, they would probably want to power vent it due to the distance and that would go on into more electrical complications that I'd rather not deal with.

After that, quotes on flipping the system.

Various people have told me to "just fill in the hole in with dirt" after flipping the system....but I don't trust that. I know nothing about the layout of the land or house before they built it and before this hole was dug out. I'm not even sure that the former owners knew what they unleashed. From what I gather, they did it as a prerequisite to sell to my parents and satisfy the federal housing authority. They green lighted it and obviously moved afterwards. It is possible that they never saw water flow down there. 

Whatever smaller stuff (gutters, etc.) will be done in between.


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## jmr106

nealtw said:


> These guys have a small conveyor 15" by 10 ft $105 a day, Just click on the item and check out and put in your address.
> https://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equi...l-conveyors/?gclid=CMS38MKz1s4CFRSPfgod4_EOiA




I'm probably just going to devise my own method for getting the gravel into the hole. It will be hard, but I'll have to deal with it and make it work. The awkwardness of having a company deliver such a huge thing (not much room and a back porch in the way beside the house) makes me hesitant. The criminal tendencies in the area make me iffy about keeping anyone else's equipment of that value. You'd be surprised around here...the people two houses down had a break-in twice (possibly drug house next to them). That same house...their roof looks so bad that it has to be leaking all over the place in there, but they drive fancy cars. Very shady area. The victims now have a camera pointed at their property. Had a cat. converter on the car that someone tried to sawzall off early one morning 10 feet from the house (dog in the house heard them cutting and scared them away). Just all kinds of stuff. I don't want anyone else's equipment here. I'll just have to deal with it and figure something out.


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## jmr106

GBR said:


> The dark ones look like chestnut shells that squirrels have already eaten out, possibly washed in from the exterior by the incoming water flow, same with the white (mold) ones. Did the rock chunk break the PVC pipe (drain line; 1-1/2-2") or is that your incoming water supply (1-1/4")? Where is the house that you don't require floor insulation or HVAC duct insulation with joints taped/vapor barrier. Where is the ground vapor barrier plastic? Did you find the source of your water, to have flood vents and fix the exterior downspouts/gutters? Have you watched the water usage on your house city meter for possible rupture/leak causing the damage. That is a lot of extra water, doesn't appear to be clay soil directing it in to your crawlspace.  Appears to be a "grain" pattern in the cloth covering the ducts, don't breath any dust if cutting it- they should take precautions that is is asbestos. Are you at bottom or top of hill?
> 
> Gary




In the far back left of the backyard, there is an old pile of rocks and such. There used to be one a little closer to the house on the far right side, as well. Probably 50 feet away. They apparently used to burn all sorts of trash and such back there. Probably worked its way in somehow. How it got that far...I have no idea. 

The rock chuck just happens to be there. That's some kind of old pipe that someone left down there years ago. Lots of stuff down there that shouldn't be. No fresh water pipes are ruptured. It happens only when it rains for 2-3 days. 

The house is on a street with a hill. The top of the street is moderately steep. About 7 houses down. It continues on down from there. Water tends to flow downhill in the yards if it rains a lot, but we aren't in a flood zone per FEMA maps that I have checked. Elevation of the area is about 1,000 feet or so above seal level, so we're not sitting in a bowl area.


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## nealtw

jmr106 said:


> Still mulling over precisely what I can put down in that hole to elevate the water heater with that will withstand water and the gravel. Whatever it is, it will have to stay put and will have to have the gravel simply put around it as-is. Trying to put the water heater on top of the gravel after it has been put down is just way too much trouble and would be too far into the future to be feasible. Need something that will last for years. I don't want to mess up anything for the future owners. Trying to factor in that whatever is used may sink into the dirt just a little due to the more concentrated weight (whereas the actual tank sitting on the ground right now has spread-out surface area). Apparently the big cement blocks crack over time.
> 
> 
> .



CMU blocks are used to build piers that hold up houses.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/24/3285.306


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## jmr106

It is possible that the stuff being seen simply washed in an old rodent hole near the house foundation at some point and ended up washing down there somehow over the years. But then again, even if there is a crack in the foundation or whatever...the cost of digging all of that up, locating it, fixing it, etc...is far beyond anything I am trying to do. It won't stop the water problem, but will make it more manageable and keep the equipment from flooding.

The huge issue is that even the sump hole isn't proper. I've never seen such a thing. An "open" sump just dug out with a pump slapped in it like that. I can't put "better" pumps down there for fear of clogging them with mud and sediment. Plus, that doesn't even look right. A proper sump basin with gravel filtering the water would do wonders. Since the former owners didn't even bother to do that, there's all this stuff to do...


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## jmr106

nealtw said:


> CMU blocks are used to build piers that hold up houses.
> 
> https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/24/3285.306




So basically the same thing the retaining wall is made out of. Any idea on stacking/configuration? I could build a stand for it, but it would be pretty rough on the bottom of the water heater. Plus, the current water heater would be in the way and a pre-built stand would weigh hundreds of pounds and too heavy to move into place after the old water heater is removed.


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## nealtw

If you moved the tank a day early so you could build it and have it ready for the new tank
Something like this with alternating rows CMUs are 16 x 8 x8 so that would make it 24 inches sq, you could cap it with a 24" sq. concrete paver.
If you built it dry and then filled the voids in the block with premixed concrete that comes in bags just add water and a rebar for each corner.
But you height choices would be 10", 18" or 26"
Leveling the first coarse might be tricky if the floor is sloped.
Most piers are just 16" sq., in this picture they are hiding columns, I would just leave the center open.


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## slownsteady

Don't overthink the the WH stand too much. CMU's will probably be fine, and a dry stack will probably be fine too. You may want to use solid blocks for the top row:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/16-in-x-...168621/100350217?keyword=solid+concrete+block

If you do anything more elaborate, you will have to know exactly what height to make it before the plumbers arrive.


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## nealtw

Did you get hit with the storm?


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## jmr106

nealtw said:


> Did you get hit with the storm?



The hurricane hit the upper Florida panhandle area with 80mph winds and skimmed down around Macon, Georgia about 80 miles south of us. They had a lot of flooding down there and a lot of areas got 6+ inches of rain. They closed all the schools and most of the businesses and such. That was a pretty close one. We missed a ton of rain by maybe 30-40 miles at most. This is the most active part of the hurricane season, so things are just now starting to ramp up.

One little swath of rain hit us last night when I was getting off from work and stuck around for a while. Got an inch of rain within about 2 hours. Pumps didn't need to come on. But since I get home around 12:30am, it wasn't really the time to go check the crawlspace for water flow or see if water flows in through that hole.


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## jmr106

I have entertained the idea of taking a tape measure with me and measuring from the inside of the crawlspace door opening to above where that possible water flow hole is on the the other side of the back wall of the hole. Then go outside and measure the same thing. Dig down around that approximate area outside and see if I see anything there. Also, to see what kind of foundation is there. My mother isn't fond of the idea of digging up a bunch of stuff, so I may just dig 3-4 feet wide, down several feet and away from the house 2-3 feet and see if I see anything. That potential water output hole looks so round-like that I'm wondering if there isn't some kind of old pipe or drain under the dirt somewhere. Granted, that's probably 5 feet under the outside ground.


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## nealtw

There are easier ways to find it out side.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftyTG6xhYwQ[/ame]
And you can scope it for a look see inside
http://www6.homedepot.com/tool-truck-rental/Drain_Camera/CGPF_ECAM-ACE/index.html


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## jmr106

Here's a bit of an update: apparently the former owners sometime in '79 were told by the FHA that they needed to move the water heater from the kitchen and dig out a space in the crawl space to put it. So, they did what we're dealing with now. I was talking with my mother tonight about that and apparently it was a very quick thing. They dug it out, built the retaining wall and put the water heater at the far end where it is now. Pretty certain now that not too long after, my parents bought the house. The former owners may have never experienced a rain event to trigger water flow during the short time time between the sale. 

I should probably note that the said hole seems in line with where I'm quite sure the mystery object in the yard is. 













Even if I elevate the heating/air system and water heater, get gravel down there with poly on top, a proper sump and pumps, etc...this is going to bug me until I figure out what this is. If it can lessen the water flow even after I have gotten the equipment elevated, it would still be better. 

Question: Does anyone know of any place that might exist that rents anything like ground penetrating radar devices for a reasonable price? Is there such a thing for consumer use that doesn't cost thousands of dollars and require a crew to operate?

That's too close to the house to be an old septic tank. My mother's description was "some kind of storm drain or something" around that approximate area that I have marked. My father discovered it metal detecting in the yard one day. Apparently it would run parallel to the length of the house. If I remember correctly, when I was probably 10 I think my uncle may have dug up the same object after my mother mentioned it to him (I think out of curiosity). I think I vaguely remember some kind of object with tin nailed down over the top of it (could be a drain pipe or some kind of flat drain-like object with a cover, which wouldn't make any sense). That was 20-something years ago and I have little detail of it. No idea what it was. I don't think there's a random big piece of tin just buried under the ground for no reason. Now that I've found what looks like a water outlet hole behind the wall, this is sparking my interest towards the yard again. Given that the general area is somewhere outside of the back of the house and the hole is just inside there possibly dumping water from it, it doesn't seem unreasonable for me to think that whatever is under the ground might be related to that.

Lots of people have said that there may be an old "perimeter drain" around the house. I can dig around and see, but I doubt it. A perimeter drain (as I understand it, at least) would go around the outer side right next to the foundation. How common would a "storm drain" be in running from (back) yard to yard under the ground like that, even in older days? Anyone ever heard of such a thing several feet from the back of a house?

I'm starting to become more sure that there's a storm drain of sorts that may be damaged/cracked under the yard somewhere. I just might start a dig out there soon and see what it is. There has always been a dirt runway of sorts in that particular area. Not much grass has ever grown there for some reason. Even grass seed was tried numerous times, holes poked, larger areas of seed buried there, etc. Wouldn't grow there.


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## slownsteady

Here's a couple of guesses, just based on hints from your threads.

The tin object in your yard is some kind of homemade drywell, which may have failed over time or was poorly constructed.
If the previous owners dug out that "basement" in a hurry, they may not have paid any attention to pipes/drains in the area. Maybe they broke the drain pipe that was meant to carry water away from the foundation, so now it flows into the basement.


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## jmr106

Could be. Supposedly the tin cover was big enough that nobody went through the trouble to get the dirt off from the tin to lift it up see what it was, so it was assumed to be related to some kind of "storm drain" for whatever reason.


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## jmr106

...........


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## jmr106

Started digging outside. Post moved to plumbing forum with questions about odd piping found.


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## Mr_David

jmr106 said:


> Started digging outside. Post moved to plumbing forum with questions about odd piping found.


 
I just read this entire thread. 
Very interesting but Then you jumped it to a new thread in plumbing with out a link. 

So Here's a link  
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=21120


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## jmr106

It went to plumbing because I was chasing the sewer pipe looking for a potential septic tank and found it unfilled, which may or may not be the source of the water. Figured that would be more fitting in plumbing than here.


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## slownsteady

Ther's a whole lot more to this saga:
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=19909


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## jmr106

It is official. Water is coming from that hole in the dirt. Water flow returned this morning with a typical 1.5" to 2" of rain in about 6 hours, whereas in the past 4" of rain over 2-3 days wouldn't even bring anything into the crawlspace at all. The water flow stopped for months after I filled in the old concrete septic tank (I calculated that it could hold about 1,000 gallons) that I found about 10 feet from the back of the house. It is approximately in line with this said hole in the crawlspace dirt. Had a considerable flow of water today and the pump still triggers once every couple of hours. My previous assumptions were wrong. The photos are deceiving. This hole in the dirt behind the retaining wall is about 2 feet down at most from the top of the wall. 

http://oi63.tinypic.com/2gy21aq.jpg

It appears to me that water flows in from the hole at the corner and disperses within the hollow cinderblocks of the wall all the way around, then starts coming out everywhere. That's a new problem, because it isn't at the base of the wall like I had originally thought. Containing the wall with dimple board on the inside all the way around and about 2.5 feet of grave with a 3" to 5" layer of concrete on top still wouldn't stop this source hole that would be above that point. I still have plans to flip the furnace and possibly switch the water heater to an indoor on-demand. However, I wanted to see if the water would come back. It has. 

I'm quite puzzled. How is this coming from a filled old septic tank? I dug all around that area outside of the house and nothing else was found there. 

Around the top of the sump hole, I noted this singular place where a stream of water about as thick as a pencil was spraying out of the concrete of the floor around the top of the makeshift hole: 

http://oi64.tinypic.com/28lx46v.jpg

It wasn't hitting anything upon spraying out, but was "bending/twisting" as it flowed, as if against gravity. That must have been under some force to be curving around that much. Possible springs or just the water running from inside of the wall and under the ground finding a spot that was open in the concrete? It looks just like some of the videos of the water table shooting up out of concrete like I have seen in a lot of people's basements. 

I could throw some drainage gravel behind that wall and cement over it with a thick layer of concrete on top of the gravel to keep the dirt from eroding out of the old tank and coming through that hole. That's a concern. If that is in fact where it is still coming from. I can't figure out how to "stop" the water, however. If I plugged the dirt hole, it really would just find another path around whatever I plugged it with. Plus, I can't follow it all the way to the source. At this point, however...I've pondered renting one of those inspection cameras from a home improvement store and scoping that hole to see where it leads. If it leads to the old septic tank, I would imagine that it would be open all the way to the wall where the water is flowing from. Not sure if that would be worth the money, but...this is a pretty odd problem.

I also used to think that the back wall behind the water heater was the problem. That IS where the water seems to be coming from out of the hole in the dirt. However, it apparently doesn't flow out of that back base part of the wall until much later. I now know that's a good 1 to 1.5 feet below the water hole. It was bone dry when I checked it, while the other parts of the wall had lots of water coming out of them. So that leads me to believe even more that water doesn't start coming out of the back of the wall until it builds up everywhere else around the rest of the wall and has nowhere else to go. 

Thinking about one of these: 

http://www6.homedepot.com/tool-truck-rental/Drain_Camera/CGPF_ECAM-ACE/index.html

Its $137 for 4 hours and $195 per day. I'm also wondering if any of the rocks in the dirt would pose a scratch hazard to the camera, as I do not want to buy a $5,000+ camera. It is obviously meant for pipes that would be easy to slide along in and be consistently smooth. Anyone know how tough they make these things to be? Will I scratch the lens on the jagged rocks pushing it through this hole?

At the end of the day, I'm thinking of just having that furnace flipped and hung from the floor, the tanked gas water heater converted to tankless indoor and mounted in the crawlspace somewhere...and just gravel the whole freaking thing to the top of the wall. Concrete over the gravel with about 5 inches of concrete across the top, install a sump basin in the gravel below the concrete and call it a day. Thoughts?


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## slownsteady

My first thought is to use the dimple board on the outside of your blocks to deflect the water away from the high value area inside the wall. Of course that doesn't stop water from flowing into your crawlspace, but it might provide some protection to your equipment. You could provide a sump pump outside the area also to carry the deflected water away.
Second thought is to get some hydraulic cement patch and stuff it way the hell up into that hole. Filling the old septic was a good step, but if the pipe wasn't blocked, or if it is broken outside of the old septic it will still carry water from the ground into your crawlspace. An even better option is to dig outside your foundation and find the source of that hole. You have already mapped the situation, so you may be able to find the exact spot to start digging.


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## jmr106

slownsteady said:


> My first thought is to use the dimple board on  the outside of your blocks to deflect the water away from the high  value area inside the wall. Of course that doesn't stop water from  flowing into your crawlspace, but it might provide some protection to  your equipment. You could provide a sump pump outside the area also to  carry the deflected water away. Second thought is to get some hydraulic cement patch and stuff it way  the hell up into that hole. Filling the old septic was a good step, but  if the pipe wasn't blocked, or if it is broken outside of the old septic  it will still carry water from the ground into your crawlspace. An even  better option is to dig outside your foundation and find the source of  that hole. You have already mapped the situation, so you may be able to  find the exact spot to start digging.



I'm kind of curious about the water hole in the dirt. You can see the edge of a large rock in that crevice a couple of feet in front of the hole. I'm wondering what's under that rock and under that ledge of solid dirt. Just for the heck of it, I'll be trying to move that 100+ pound random rock and filming under the edge of that dirt just to see if there wasn't some other exit hole that it might have flowed into. Neal has speculated a few times that such a creek/underground stream  might have been there and they cut into it when they dug that out. To me, in the pic it looks like the water flowed straight out of the hole and either side of the flow path looks dry, so I'm beginning to wonder if that is the cause. It may be coming out of the dirt everywhere behind the wall, too. I'm actually leaning towards the latter. No water has been coming out of that hole since it stopped raining at 1pm today. Water is still coming out of the wall in a small amount to make the pump trigger and dump 70 gallons about every hour or so without it raining. It hasn't rained in about 12 hours. I'm thinking the water table is raising up sometime in late winter/early summer and possibly varying each year. To me, there's just no way that the one hole brought in enough water behind the wall to back up and pump out probably 1,000 gallons since it stopped raining today. It is at a slower rate currently and picks up only when it rains, then dies back down again. I need to do some water table testing outside. 

Not knocking your idea, but if it gets dimple board, it is going to have to be inside of the wall. I know that isn't really the best. There's just no way I'd get behind that wall all the way around. That dirt (like the ledge sticking out on the left of the photo) is like a rock texture. 

When I dug up the sewer pipes just outside of the house and many feet away from the house, I dug from the house to the sewer pipes and then beyond the pipes and found the septic tank on the other side of the sewer line. Right before I found the septic tank, I dug all over the place around the foundation of the wall there. I saw nothing that would cause the water flow. I was looking for an old pipe or something. Not a thing was ever found, just the septic tank many feet away. 

Water tends to build up about halfway up the wall for some reason, even on the back wall where it is probably 20 feet to the front of the house. There's no way that the rain is seeping through that much dirt on that side of the hole. I made it down there in time to actually see the start of some of the areas coming out of the wall, where they were just then beginning to flow onto the dirt slowly and picking up speed as water build up into the wall. Yet at that time, no water was coming out of the dirt hole. Since this is a (rubblestone?) raised foundation, my digging and the sewer pipe itself that goes just underneath the raised foundation have shown that there is apparently no actual foundation/slab underneath.


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## jmr106

I'm starting to wonder whether the builders even checked the water table when they built this place or if the previous owners even bothered to check anything to do with the water table before they dug. Most likely not.

If there were any builder records in 1950 for the water table, any idea where I would attempt to get those from? The city is like one big run-around. You call this place and they tell you to call x place and give you their number. You call that place and they give you another number to call someone else. Then they give you the first number and say, "Well, that should be the place where you find out." 

I know that it would make it a lot more awkward to move under there, but I'm thinking of flipping the furnace (possibly asking various companies if they can rip the whole thing out and just install a little smaller one hung from the floor  at the top of the wall- might be cheaper than flipping the existing one, anyway). Convert to an inside tankless water heater (but I'm worried about the old galvanized pipes clogging it and maintenance) that could vent outside via pvc or something like that. Fill the entire hole up with drainage gravel to within inches from the top of the wall. Concrete the whole freaking thing all the way across with about 5" of concrete on top of the gravel and moisture barrier - including putting drainage gravel into the cinderblocks of the wall and behind the back of the wall. That may be a little heavy on the concrete, but it appears that their coating of cement is being torn up by the water in the existing hole. Granted, that probably wasn't even 1/2". I just don't want anything breaking or crumbling when walking on top of the gravel. 5" should ensure that, right? This should let me skip the dimple board since all of that is under the concrete. In the meantime, a sump basin in the gravel level with the top of the wall inside of the wall, since it might still be needed. It would probably barely come on at that point since it would be just a little below outside ground level inside of the sump pit.

That's a whole lot of work, but that seems like the only way to nip this thing in the bud. Just so tired of it. 

This was an inside photo of the septic tank side that faced the house:

http://oi66.tinypic.com/1z3nwgi.jpg

I noted some broken looking areas on the inside of the tank. At least, it looked that way to me. But those are way below the level of the hole in the dirt, so I'm confused. I also saw about a foot or so of dirt inside of the septic tank for some reason. It looked like it had channels that had carved around either side of it. No idea what that foot of dirt was there for. Was it filled more dirt than that at one time and washed a lot of it down and it got pumped out a tiny bit at a time with the water over 3+ decades?

Lots of questions, but the more I dig, it seems like the more I should just try to kill the whole issue and remove everything from there. Plus, I'd like to be able to eventually sell the house and know that I didn't screw somebody over like the former owners did to my parents.


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## slownsteady

> You can see the edge of a large rock in that crevice a couple of feet in front of the hole. I'm wondering what's under that rock and under that ledge of solid dirt. Just for the heck of it, I'll be trying to move that 100+ pound random rock and filming under the edge of that dirt just to see if there wasn't some other exit hole that it might have flowed into.


Be careful about moving that rock. It may be a can o' worms. It may spread out the problem or open new channels.



> Concrete the whole freaking thing all the way across with about 5" of concrete on top of the gravel and moisture barrier - including putting drainage gravel into the cinderblocks of the wall and behind the back of the wall. That may be a little heavy on the concrete, but it appears that their coating of cement is being torn up by the water in the existing hole. Granted, that probably wasn't even 1/2". I just don't want anything breaking or crumbling when walking on top of the gravel. 5" should ensure that, right?


I'm not sure that the concrete buys you anything. The gravel will transport the water. A plastic sheet will provide protection for the gravel. If you are not supporting your equipment on the concrete, then it is a lot of work and expense for little advantage.


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## jmr106

slownsteady said:


> Be careful about moving that rock. It may be a can o' worms. It may spread out the problem or open new channels. I'm not sure that the concrete buys you anything. The gravel will transport the water. A plastic sheet will provide protection for the gravel. If you are not supporting your equipment on the concrete, then it is a lot of work and expense for little advantage.



Pretty much anything that I do, I know that I won't get the money back. I want to do this for us and for the next owners. Plus, I'm concerned that when the house is sold, this could come back to bite us later if I don't take care of it now. I wouldn't buy a house with water issues that weren't resolved or at least covered and controlled. At least this way, it would be sealed and have a proper basin and such, and the pump would likely never come on at all since the top of the basin will be flush with the top of the gravel. The concrete seems like the best and only way to keep the basin from floating out of the top of the gravel. That would be quite a serious issue, and it would look iffy if I just cemented around the basin in a certain area. It might still move on me.

It will be a lot of work, yes. But instead of any more worry about this every time it rains a lot, I see it as a one-time thing to fix it once and for all. Can't really put a price tag on peace of mind. I may never know the cause. Who knows, if I could take the entire wall down and look behind it, it may just be holes in the dirt that water sprays out of everywhere. Could be springs, could be some kind of stream that activates only when it rains enough...it just would cost far too much money for me to ever identify this. County maps and info are useless. I've hit and a dead end and given up on old construction notes/maps and such. 1950...nobody kept up with that stuff. Places like the USGS are pretty useless with info, too.

My main concern is...will all of that moisture harm the top layer of concrete? How much is "enough" to be stable on top of the gravel? Is 3" sufficient or should I stick with my thoughts of 5" just to be sure? I've never put down gravel with poly and concrete over the top (even more so with that much gravel), so this is a new thing to me. I do know that the silly 1/4" or 1/2" that they put down on the floor is cracking up all over the place due to the water. They should have known that wouldn't work. Will a thicker layer of concrete eventually break up due to moisture, as well?

As for that rock...this is the view opposite of the water hole on the back of the wallt: http://oi67.tinypic.com/2zxruow.jpg

Whatever junk has fallen in there over the years, I'll just retrieve it out when I do it. It doesn't really look like it is blocking anything. I have an old cell phone that does an amazing job at lighting and recording anything that I need to down there in high definition. I'll check all around the rock first with that and see if I can tell what is behind it and under that odd dirt ledge that looks like water carved out from underneath it. That sure is an odd place for it to be, but it looks like one of the questionable cut-out stones that nobody seems to know the reason for at various intervals around the raised foundation (these: http://oi66.tinypic.com/2dikd4n.jpg). Never did figure out what those were, but they cut out places on the inside of the raised foundation and then inserted those rocks underneath with a gap between all sides. They did a lot of weird stuff back then that has me shaking my head, so not surprising.  The rock in the hole could just be something extra that was left down there.


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## jmr106

I should probably note that the lid for the old tank was about 18 inches under the ground. When I tried to remove the lid before I filled it with dirt, the lid fell in. There were big openings on either side and it was barely teetering on the edge of each side of the tank anyway, so I'm not convinced that it was sealing water out.

However, over the past couple of months, the area where the lid was...the dirt has sunken down considerably. Maybe about 14 inches or so and is kind of causing the ground around it to collapse a little. I did expect some dirt to settle and will fill it back in with more dirt to raise the level back up. However, I see that there appears to be a "hole" about the size of a baseball that has formed in the corner of where the lid was. It looks dark and like it goes on down into the tank an unknown distance. I packed that tank tight, even all the back way on both sides, under where the lid went. I'm starting to wonder if there's something going on in the tank that is moving the dirt around more than normal compaction. I haven't seen any of the fill dirt that I put in coming out of that hole behind the wall. It is rather odd. There is also very little puddling where the sunken area is, so it isn't taking on that much water when it rains.

Since there was at least a foot of dirt on either side of tank (shown in the photo earlier) and it looked like channels on either side of it where water may have ran; I raised the question to my mother yesterday about whether she thought they might have filled that tank with dirt and over the decades it washed into the basement. A lot of it would have been pumped out a little at a time with the various old pumps replaced over the years and deposited in the yard. When I took over the situation, I dug the sump hole itself out considerably, because the single pedestal pump that my father had there was literally sitting on probably 18 inches of dirt that I originally believed had washed onto the floor from behind the wall. However, that dirt is so hard as a rock that I don't think that happened. I'm wondering if it didn't come from the dirt that was in the bottom of the tank. Very puzzling that they pumped it and somehow there was a foot or more of dirt all the way from one side of the tank to the other as if someone put it there. Then those "channel" places on both sides of it...there's no way they put it in there that evenly. I'm thinking there's some serious water flow going on in that tank even when it is filled with dirt. That's a pretty big issue. I wished I would have waited to fill it and see what it did during big rains. It did rain a lot when I had it open and I didn't see anything going on with water in the bottom. It may be that the water table went down during that time, however. I gather that during the late winter/early spring, the water table may be rising considerably. During the late spring and early winter, it seems to go down.

I'm thinking of setting up little survey areas next the house and over near the tank to see if I can catch the water level and see where it is at. PVC pipe?


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## nealtw

I think a test hole somewhere near the house, so you can monitor the ground water level is the best ideal.
I think water coming from every direction is indicating a high water table.
I would bet that when the house was built there was no water problem. So the higher you can raise the floor the less water you have to pump. Maybe non.
If you moved the  furnace and the water system, you could fill the whole hole and install a sump but you only have to keep the water a few inches below the floor level.
I don't think it matters where or how it gets there.
As long as you are pumping water it will move dirt so the more you raise the floor and the less you have to pump makes for less dirt to be moved.

If you don't bring the floor all the way up. dimple board on the inside from the top to just below the floor to catch any water that does come thru the wall above the level of the floor.


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## jmr106

I'm going to see if the gas meter will need an upgrade to support an indoor tankless water heater. If it does, I'll compare the cost of the gas meter upgrade (still finding out if that's on us or the gas company) plus the tankless and cost of the job exceeds what it would be to just have the breaker upgraded to 200A (from 100) and get either an on-demand electric water heater or a small tanked electric.  Most likely on-demand electric if it comes down to it. Waiting on a response from the USGS regarding the general land area and water table. Apparently Atlanta has a ton of wells that people are still using that are very productive, and there are also quite a lot of aquifers around.

In the near future, I'll have my hands on an interesting high definition endoscopic camera that works wirelessly with a smartphone and basically works like a sewer scope with lights. That'll get me about 32 feet back into the hole just to see if it is solid and the same size for that distance or just something odd like a rodent hole. Realistically, the tank is at most about 10 feet from the outside of the house and a few more feet into the crawlspace. So, if it is the tank, it should hit it. Apparently it is possible that it might dive into a cavern of water (or empty) that may be sitting there below the surface of the hole and rise up when rainwater fills it up. After 36 years, I would have thought that someone would have at least figured out where the water is coming from. Before I fill everything in with gravel, I'll know at least where this hole leads to. It is kind of a personal vendetta now...I want to know just to know. That would actually be comforting if I hit some kind of aquifer/spring that activates when it rains a lot and the issue can be at rest. There IS something going on in that tank. If the top is settling down and a small hole is starting to form on the top and appears to go deep down into it, there may be water flowing around down there in it. If that's the case, I'll be graveling behind that wall and possibly concreting over the top of that gravel behind the wall far before gravel touches any other part of that hole. I don't want all of that dirt flowing into the hole in the crawlspace...that would be an utter disaster.

When all is said and done, I'm planning to fill the entire hole and have a proper pump system, then be done with it and not worry about it any more. Not sure if a pump will be needed or not, but I'll stick one there just in case to keep the moisture away if it is needed. I'm going to see what they can do to actually get the furnace above the top of the wall. If the cost to flip it is equal to or more than another unit (possibly a little smaller than the existing one), then they can just tear it out and hang a new smaller one. I'll see what they say about that. The house is considered 875 square foot including the attic, which doesn't even have vent access to the air/furnace. So a smaller system shouldn't have any trouble if they go that route. I'll be asking a lot of questions for that. In the process, a proper plug for the new pump will be installed.

At the end of the day, I don't know for a fact that there aren't more holes just like that one behind the wall. Kind of disconcerting, but hopefully soon to be over with. Probably pumped out a couple of thousand gallons today with the pump triggering every 30-45 minutes and getting 70 gallons out each time. If there is some kind of underground water supply, it may very well just be running back in very quickly when the ground is already saturated.


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## slownsteady

> If it does, I'll compare the cost of the gas meter upgrade (still finding out if that's on us or the gas company) plus the tankless and cost of the job exceeds what it would be to just have the breaker upgraded to 200A (from 100) and get either an on-demand electric water heater or a small tanked electric. Most likely on-demand electric if it comes down to it.


Make sure you consider the cost of the monthly bill for either gas or electric, in your cost calculations.


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## jmr106

slownsteady said:


> Make sure you consider the cost of the monthly bill for either gas or electric, in your cost calculations.



In general, which would probably cost the least? Natural gas on-demand, electric on-demand or a smaller electric tanked water heater? Haven't had any experience with these, of course.


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## nealtw

Electric tank would be the cheapest to buy but cost the most to operate but may require an update to the panel, that too would be big bucks.
gas meter
How do I tell what size regulator or meter I have?
Each meter has a capacity in Cubic Feet per Hour (CFH). Locate that number regulator and multiply it by 1,024 (BTUH/CFH) to
give you an approximate BTUH capacity for natural gas. The capacity of the meter and regulator must be greater than the total
sum of the maximum BTU rating of all the appliances in the home. If the capacity of the system is too small, the gas appliances
will not receive the volume of gas required for proper operation.


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## jmr106

Furnace and current water heater each have their own round place cut out in a chimney stack going out of the roof. If the tanked water heater was removed and the on-demand gas installed with a pvc exhaust pipe instead...what is usually done to cover up the chimney stack to keep water from draining into the crawlspace from it? Can it just be covered over by some kind of metal and sealed around? Seems like the exhaust and CO from the furnace could come out around it if it wasn't sealed well.

I'll probably stick with gas on-demand. That electric bill would be quite enormous even with basic use. I'll see what the meter says tomorrow. Its a typical meter that everyone around here has, but not sure of the flow rate yet. http://oi63.tinypic.com/fx48dy.jpg

Hopefully I'll be able to find a moderately sized water heater that will meet the basic needs and yet won't require a huge amount of gas beyond what the current gas meter can deliver, but we'll see.


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## nealtw

If it is a metal stack it should have a cap on it.


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## jmr106

We have the typical residential gas meter around here. The gas company put in a new meter some untold number of years ago. I'd hazard a guess at probably 15+ years ago. 


















Perhaps someone could chime in with some advanced info on what this stuff actually means.


I see:

American Meter Company and Singer.

The tag, which is partially worn away, appears to show:

Model 1213B
1975 3/16" OPIF.
SPG. 5" - 9"
PV      13WC

Obviously the model part is self-explanatory. I'll be searching for info on the specific model. I don't know what the 1975 is. This meter is probably from the 90's I think. I presume that the 3/16" is the size of the gas line or the flow valve on the meter, but the pipes actually look physically as big as 1 inch in diameter minimum. No idea what the other stuff means.

I found this PDF manual online for it. http://barchardengineering.com/_library/2013/8/am_pr_1200b_series_ds_uk_sb_208505_2.pdf

I just don't know how to look at the parts on the current meter and compare them to the PDF to know exactly what I'm looking at. It seems like everything is broken into separate pieces and each has its own flow rate.


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## nealtw

WC is the important one . It is water column 13, not sure what the math is. You will also need the consumption of everything that you intend to run off of it.


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## nealtw

This reads like you will be alright but you will need 3/4" pipe, that is inside diameter.
You may have 3/4 now with branches, if so you could use that for the water and run a new 1/2 inch for the furnace if the 3/4 won't run both.
http://snowcrest.net/thriftysupply/pdf/RTG-Gas_Piping_Facts.pdf


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## nealtw

That tag is only for that piece on top . the bigger piece below will have it's own numbers.


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## nealtw

They claim they have one smaller to work in a crawl space and they claim now you can run it on 1/2" pipe.
https://www.rinnai.us/tankless-water-heater


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## jmr106

nealtw said:


> They claim they have one smaller to work in a crawl space and they claim now you can run it on 1/2" pipe.
> https://www.rinnai.us/tankless-water-heater



I sure wish it could. That would save quite a bit of money.


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## nealtw

jmr106 said:


> I sure wish it could. That would save quite a bit of money.



They said it is still subject to local code but worth looking into.


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## slownsteady

I would call the gas company with that pic in hand. I'm sure they will be cooperative, as the increase in gas usage is more profit for them.


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## jmr106

nealtw said:


> They said it is still subject to local code but worth looking into.



I couldn't find a particular tankless on that site that said for crawlspaces. I know that the "indoor" tankless ones are generally used if it doesn't have potential to free down there (and the furnace keeps ours quite warm during winter). Is there a particular model on that site that says that it works with the 1/2"? I can't really tell what size pipe is currently going into the basement.


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## jmr106

slownsteady said:


> I would call the gas company with that pic in hand. I'm sure they will be cooperative, as the increase in gas usage is more profit for them.



I'm going to try to contact them. As with virtually all city utilities, trying to contact someone at the company via phone is like hitting your head against the wall. I think I'll send an email with the pics and description, instead. Even if I could get someone on the phone, they'll probably get it all mixed up, probably will act like they don't know which meter we have and that sort of thing. That seems to be the norm nowadays for virtually everything. I remember when the county upgraded the water flow valve out by the street one time. They told us that they were going to perform an upgrade. Those county workers were so confused that I don't think they knew half of what they were even doing the work for. They didn't seem to know which valve we had and I had no clue what to tell them...they were the ones who put the original one there. Then at that time, they somehow caused a spike in the water pressure, which made the water heater have issues and start leaking magically right after their work and we had to get a plumber out to fix that. The plumber didn't know how in the world they managed that, either. :rofl:  Yikes, stuff like that makes me want to live in a rural area.  :hide:


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## nealtw

jmr106 said:


> I couldn't find a particular tankless on that site that said for crawlspaces. I know that the "indoor" tankless ones are generally used if it doesn't have potential to free down there (and the furnace keeps ours quite warm during winter). Is there a particular model on that site that says that it works with the 1/2"? I can't really tell what size pipe is currently going into the basement.



That is an interesting page but it not the one I was at when I posted it.
The outside of a 3/4 inch black pipe will be about 1" and 1/2" will be about 3/4".
I will see if I can find the page again.


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## nealtw

http://www.rheem.com/product/tankless-mid-efficiency-tankless-mid-efficiency-64-direct-vent-indoor

This can be direct vent or go to the old vent and will run on 1/2" pipe.
Just a little less water per minute.


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## jmr106

nealtw said:


> http://www.rheem.com/product/tankless-mid-efficiency-tankless-mid-efficiency-64-direct-vent-indoor
> 
> This can be direct vent or go to the old vent and will run on 1/2" pipe.
> Just a little less water per minute.



I don't think we even use that much, so that would probably work out just fine. It is just a matter of seeing if the contractor agrees with it and who buys it/how it gets here. After researching online, it seems like a lot of contractors are iffy about installing something that you purchased separately online. They apparently like to provide their own when they do the job. I'll be getting quotes from a company that does HVAC/gas/water/electrical so that they can work around their own jobs and there won't be anybody disagree or different people putting stuff in each other's way to cause problems later.


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## nealtw

The best bet up here is to find the wholesale outfit that sells a product that you like and have them give you list of installers.


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## jmr106

Ah well, the company that I had in mind to install it apparently isn't specialized in installation of tankless water heaters, so I can't use them anyway. It probably would be better to get someone who is a specialized contractor. One issue that I see is that the home improvement stores apparently do not sell the models compatible with the 1/2" line gas. According to the documentation link that you posted, it says that "all" of their models are now compatible with the 1/2" gas lines.


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## nealtw

on this page you can have them find a contractor.
http://www.rheem.com/homeowner-resource-center


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## jmr106

Well, on a positive note, I had time to successfully change/move both air ducts that were in the way of the sewer pipe that I'm going to change very soon. They have a 4" duct for the bathroom in the middle of two 8" ducts. That pipe should be quite fun. Things kept coming up so that kept getting put off. Comes down, from the toilet and wyes off into the kitchen sink. The other part continues on and wyes off into one large pipe that goes to presumably the sewer vent on the roof and the other goes to the smaller pipe for the bathtub drain. The hardest part will probably be the cutting.








As for that water hole, I did use the camera in it. 












It seemed like I either kept hitting a dead end in the back or a really sharp curve that even the auger couldn't bend around, so it kept trying to stick the camera in the mud and I'd have to pull it out and wipe it off. I offset the camera a little distance back so that it wouldn't be on the tip and that wouldn't happen, but it still did. Though in the above photo, it is hard to tell if that faintly visible dark dirt is in fact the back/end of the hole or just what is visible as it curves around. That's a lot larger than it appears from a top-down view. Very well-defined on the sides inside. 






A very odd type of soil seems to be all along the bottom of that hole and even on the sides inside. We don't have any kind of soil like that outside in the yard. You can see it even in the edge of it where it starts into the crawlspace and it contrasts very dark against the red dirt of the crawlspace. Those same odd gray chunks of whatever are visible inside of the hole, as well. I'm in Georgia, and just like the rest of the crawlspace and all of the ground outside (which I have dug feet down into), it is all very hard Georgia red clay. So wherever the heck this stuff is coming from...it looks like black potting soil. Even the old septic tank had light brown dirt in it before I filled it, so it isn't that. Granted, leaves and such can decay and create dark soil, but there aren't any leaves in there.


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## jmr106

So after getting a closer look, the water comes out of that hole and  goes off to the left and straight ahead, which puts it on course to go  around behind on all sides the wall. So, there are some pretty big open  (or possibly washed out) gaps on both sides of the wall on either side  of the hole. The part to the left terminates in a V-shape and you can  still see a space between the dirt and wall where it goes around.

At first glance, that dirt on the side looks pretty solid, and it is. However, this looks like many smaller water outlet holes:







and this







They don't look as well-defined and carved out. 

The ground on both sides of that large hole has all of this stuff, which we have seen less detailed photos of in the past:






I see everything from fresh-looking acorns to what looks like walnut or  pecan shells (we don't have those trees nearby, even in local yards).  Some look old and some look fresh.

I'm giving up on probing the water hole anymore. Seems like a big waste  of time. I thought it would be a bit more revealing, but that is so far  underground that it probably takes days or even a week or more to  completely dry out the mud and it makes it very difficult to get good  images. I think these holes are probably all behind the wall on all  sides, in varying sizes that the water has carved out. The main large hole at the back corner of the wall...photos and even the view from the top of the wall makes it seem very tricky. It looks like it is at the top of the wall. It is in fact probably half of a foot above the base of the wall. That became apparent only because I had to reach down to put the camera in, otherwise it looks further up. Those other smaller holes in the dirt, however...those are halfway up the wall.


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## jmr106

So, now that those things are known...

Lets assume that the water  heater is replaced with a tankless and mounted elsewhere, and the  machine is out of the hole. We've got this big empty hole with a wall,  and there are also varying gaps - large and small - between the dirt and  the back of the wall. I can't fit anything behind the wall. Trying to dimple board the wall would be a complete failure, inside or outside of the wall. There's just too many access points for water to come in. I need to fill the entire hole with gravel and install a sump basin flush with the top of the gravel, right around the very top of the wall. 

Questions that I now need to address: 

Is there a risk of me causing some kind of sink hole under the house by filling the entire hole, the cinderblock holes inside of the wall and the gaps between the dirt and wall with drainage stone? That's about 18,000 pounds worth of stone. 

There has been discussion of putting down some kind of barrier between the moisture barrier and the crushed stone (to keep the stone from smashing holes in the moisture barrier) and concreting over that with x inches of concrete (haven't really determined how much should be used). I'm also unsure if I should concrete over the gravel in the gaps on the side between the wall and dirt, as this will not look very uniform in shape and would be jagged on the edges, even with concrete. It is just the way that they dug it out. 

Should I be concerned about the concrete collapsing if the stone sinks ino the dirt some, since part of the concrete on top of the stone is going to have to go over the wall itself to seal out the moisture? If I don't concrete anything and just put down moisture barrier, there is concern that the sump basin could float out of the top of the gravel, and that obviously wouldn't be good. I can't think another way (without "rigging" something odd looking, of course) of keeping it in the gravel securely. Sure, I could put some stones in the bottom of the basin, but that's odd.

I'm also trying to figure out if I'm going to cause some kind of code violation in doing all of this. As long as the sump is sealed and perforated, it doesn't need pipes actually going to it, right? Obviously, I can't run pipes to it, anyway. Will the concrete crack eventually due to moisture? Some people think I should put about 3 inches on top of the gravel. Others say more. Some say less. I'm confused. Heck, even some contractor friends have looked at it and have been confused with what to tell me. 

A few of my in-person friends who know a little of this and that stated:

Friend 1: "You  SERIOUSLY need to hire a professional to correct the situation under  the house before the house starts sinking, or falls over altogether."

Erm...I don't think that the house is going to magically fall over if it has been here for all of these decades. They've had the water issue since '79 or '80 after the former owners dug into the crawlspace, so...

Friend 2: "The  only proper solution is to make the ground around the house slope away  from the foundation on all sides.  Water will always seek the low spot."

As much as I'd love to do that...I don't think it would help at all. Actually, a considerable amount of the extra dirt that they gave me when I filled in the old septic tank...I ran that half the length of the house building the ground up. Water can't flow up that way anymore on that half. The other half doesn't really have drainage issues next to the house. Plus, the water is on top of the dirt and soaks in...and this problem is 3 feet under the ground.

Friend 3: "Something tells me the water will find another way in. There reason the water flows in is that the ground outside it is too high. Depending on the situation, you might be able to landscape it away from the house. Assuming this is impossible, you could still create a french ditch, surrounding the house in the high area and diverting the water to the low area you speak of. This could be done easily because it is outside. Then, that ditch (the magnitude of which is an engineering question) could be filled with rock and gravel + covered with landscaping clothe ( to keep it open. Second, you are going to need good gutters to deal with the roof runoff. Instead of all this, you could also dig a trench under the house for a substantial drain pipe ending at the low ground. But you would still have the water flowing under the house which is no good."

Hrmm...what's wrong with just turning the whole thing into a french drain? Is that going to cause some kind of code violation problems later?

Thoughts?


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## nealtw

By the look of the black wall on the dirt side, it should be dirty. So I think that it was never back filled on that side, they just built the wall and left as is.
I think the holes in the dirt is just from pumping. The ground water rises and lowers and leaves dirt where it is until you give it a place to go, then it will start to travel then it will move dirt along with it.
So if you left it the way it is, with the dirt washing out would continue to undermine the house and cause real problems.

I don't know how long nut shells last, that part is interesting, I guess you could put some gravel in those holes, water would just wash thru, rodents would move it.


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## nealtw

Friend 4  says.
If the dirt that we see laying around inside the hole is all that has moved in 40 years, not a problem.

As there is no waterproofing under the existing floor in the hole there would be no point in dimple on the outside as it would not help keep the hole dry.
Dimple on the inside above the level of the new floor would catch any water coming thru the wall and direct it down under the floor and there for would keep the hole dry.

As you are thinking of filling the hole to the top of the block wall the dimple is now a mute point, not needed.

I think we can assume that there was never a problem with water before the hole was dug out or they would have found a different solution to the placement of the gear.
So my thinking is we could probably prove that no pump would be needed if you do it right, You still might want one but I would plan on it as just extra insurance.

I don't think the wait of gravel is a concern. But if you lay your hands on enough use Styrofoam to fill it, it would do the same job.
A skim coat of concrete that we see in crawl spaces here is 2" and really all it would be for is to protect the vapor barrier plastic. And the plastic keeps everything dry
I suggested dimple on top of the gravel in the hole area only because if the hole is full of grave and you have plastic over that and then concrete, the gravel would then poke holes on the plastic.
Gravel out the wall could settle into the dirt a little so around that area a little work with a hand compactor might be in order.
In side the wall I would not worry about settling a lot if any. anything even foam between the gravel and the plastic just to stop it from damage is all.

French drain, sloping away from the house. Great but if the water table is at the level above that of the floor inside there will be no gain.

Questions.


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## nealtw

Yeah, no foam would float.

What I would like you to do is pick up a couple 3 ft pieces of 4" pipe and dig a couple holes in the yard 10 of 15 ft from the house and plant them and cover the top, so when the pump is running you can measure the ground water level at the pipes and we can figure how that would relate to the level in the hole.


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## jmr106

My thoughts are that they roughed out the hole, went a little too far with the digging on some sides and the wall ended up not being flush with the dirt. However, given the amount of dirt in the floor of the hole, I think some has washed down from the back wall (behind the water heater) where the big hole is. The rest of the dirt is hard like rock, but probably still erodes a little as water runs through those holes.

I don't have a for-sure answer as to whether a pump existed in the hole already when my parents bought the house in '79. Between the time that the former people dug this hole and the time that my parents bought the house, it couldn't have been over 1-2 months. The previous owners may have never seen water flow, but simply may have anticipated it. After the first 2-3 days of rain (we don't get those that often), the water problems likely started. It may have been months before they experienced one. 

With the exception of the few times when it has flooded, water never makes it up to the wall on the back sides. It just runs out of the holes and all the way across the floor until it reaches the sump. I'm not sure why it never occurred to my father to add a second pump when the first one kept getting overtaken. When I added a second one, no matter how heavy the flow rate (even at 75GPM coming in everywhere), it keeps it in check never goes out of the sump hole and doesn't back up to the wall anywhere.

I would think that once I put the gravel in behind the wall - even if I don't put gravel "in" the water flow hole itself - putting it down on the dirt behind the wall would block any dirt from washing out of that hole. Yes, rodents (if that was caused by any) could try to go through there, but if I concrete over the top of the gravel...they're not going to be able to push it out of the way anywhere. 

I'm puzzled by the shells. Would a squirrel/rodent have entered the basement (because of the spaces on either side of the crawlspace door) and brought those in? I didn't see any inside of the hole itself, just that long gray stuff that looks like burnt wood or something.


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## jmr106

I initially wanted to dimple board the walls, but now that the water problem seems to be everywhere (in the pic with the multiple holes, you can actually see where that part of the wall is wet under one of the holes where water has ran out of it before)...I'd rather fill the entire thing. I'm just trying to figure out how to make the fill and/or concrete more symmetrical than the weird way that they dug it out. 

Well, with filling the hole with gravel, everyone that I have suggested  it to has said, "That's going to be a LOT of work!"  I could fill that  in a day working at moderate speed. I'd have the 7 cubic yards of 57 stone delivered to the front driveway and find a decent rate to pay somebody to take like 20-30 minutes and move the pile back to just outside of the crawlspace door with a Bobcat. I'll easily wheel that in with the cart that I still have and just dump it into the door at about 400 pounds per load. I prefer gravel to keep it more stable. I'd like for the surface to be something I could walk on, lay on to change a pipe, etc...without having to worry about anything collapsing or eroding away below me. I want it to be a functional surface to keep the gravel below it in check and to be able to freely walk on/do stuff on without fear of going boom into the bottom of it. That's why I was thinking of making the concrete thicker. No more dirt can wash in because it would build up in the water hole on its own, but still allow the water to flow in if necessary. I'm still going to put in a sump basin. I know that's unreasonable to think that it could flood above the point of the wall since the rest of the crawlspace says dry. However, if you look at some of those recent photos...the back side of the wall has dirt that is a little higher than other areas of the crawlspace. I wouldn't be surprised if unchecked water wouldn't go up and over the top of the wall and level out somewhere just below the dirt level. Not because the other parts of the crawlspace have any water issues, but because of the pressure of it spraying out of the walls and having that big open space there. 

At the end of the day, I think it is just the water table around here. I'm going to put some pipes in the ground and see what the water table is like when it rains a lot again. I'll bet that water is probably a foot or two below the surface. 

Would a smaller pipe like 2" PVC be just as good? 4" seems a bit awkward to get into the ground at 3 feet down, but we'll see.


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## nealtw

Who knows how long nut shells last underground, and what was o the land before houses, maybe a nut farm, burnt stumps, who knows?
I really don't think you have rodents or they would be a problem after your work is done.
After the furnace and water are moved you could just move the pump up and monitor the height of full flood and see where the new floor should go.
If you only have to come up a foot, you would  move less gravel and leave a good area for someone working on the gear.


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## nealtw

jmr106 said:


> I initially wanted to dimple board the walls, but now that the water problem seems to be everywhere (in the pic with the multiple holes, you can actually see where that part of the wall is wet under one of the holes where water has ran out of it before)...I'd rather fill the entire thing. I'm just trying to figure out how to make the fill and/or concrete more symmetrical than the weird way that they dug it out.
> 
> Well, with filling the hole with gravel, everyone that I have suggested  it to has said, "That's going to be a LOT of work!"  I could fill that  in a day working at moderate speed. I'd have the 7 cubic yards of 57 stone delivered to the front driveway and find a decent rate to pay somebody to take like 20-30 minutes and move the pile back to just outside of the crawlspace door with a Bobcat. I'll easily wheel that in with the cart that I still have and just dump it into the door at about 400 pounds per load. I prefer gravel to keep it more stable. I'd like for the surface to be something I could walk on, lay on to change a pipe, etc...without having to worry about anything collapsing or eroding away below me. I want it to be a functional surface to keep the gravel below it in check and to be able to freely walk on/do stuff on without fear of going boom into the bottom of it. That's why I was thinking of making the concrete thicker. No more dirt can wash in because it would build up in the water hole on its own, but still allow the water to flow in if necessary. I'm still going to put in a sump basin. I know that's unreasonable to think that it could flood above the point of the wall since the rest of the crawlspace says dry. However, if you look at some of those recent photos...the back side of the wall has dirt that is a little higher than other areas of the crawlspace. I wouldn't be surprised if unchecked water wouldn't go up and over the top of the wall and level out somewhere just below the dirt level. Not because the other parts of the crawlspace have any water issues, but because of the pressure of it spraying out of the walls and having that big open space there.
> 
> At the end of the day, I think it is just the water table around here. I'm going to put some pipes in the ground and see what the water table is like when it rains a lot again. I'll bet that water is probably a foot or two below the surface.
> 
> Would a smaller pipe like 2" PVC be just as good? 4" seems a bit awkward to get into the ground at 3 feet down, but we'll see.



I think finding full flood level will change some of the thinking so the pipes will tell the story.

If you dig a hole down close to floor level in the basement.

Not sure how one size pipe would be easier than another.
You may need to make or use something that floats to get a measurement.

The quick and easy way to get a close measurement for level.
Go out the front and back in line with the side of the house.
If you hook a string to the other end of the building and pull it tight. and when it lines up with a row of bricks you are close to level. then you can figure out how high that row of bricks are above the floor in the basement.
I would want to be 10 or 15 ft away from the house, the further away the less pump effect you will get.


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## slownsteady

I have said this before in a few of the threads you have on the subject; if the the equipment is not in the hole...and your pump arrangement is doing it's job....then you don't really need to fill it.
But in either case (and especially if you fill it) you need to put filter fabric around the walls to catch that soil. The gravel will hold up the fabric once it is filled in;....... or you will need to rig something if not filled.
About acorns and stuff: if there is an old broken pipe back behind that hole, chipmunks etc. could be using it for storage or shelter and the shells are washing out into your crawlspace.


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## nealtw

We are working on the hope that the need for the pump could be gone and left just for the extreme storms.


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## jmr106

slownsteady said:


> I have said this before in a few of the threads you have on the subject; if the the equipment is not in the hole...and your pump arrangement is doing it's job....then you don't really need to fill it. But in either case (and especially if you fill it) you need to put filter fabric around the walls to catch that soil. The gravel will hold up the fabric once it is filled in;....... or you will need to rig something if not filled. About acorns and stuff: if there is an old broken pipe back behind that hole, chipmunks etc. could be using it for storage or shelter and the shells are washing out into your crawlspace.



The pumps do their job, but the water is so nasty/gritty that it isn't good for the pumps. The old skim layer of concrete that they put on the floor is breaking up. The hole is just so nasty, has mold issues, etc. The pedestal pumps are very noisy. At the time when those were put in, they were used because the submersible pumps had such a high amp rating and the pedestal pumps used less power. The situation with the breaker and how much power was available was unknown at that time, so pedestals were used. Now, they make low powered submersibles that can pump way more water, but I basically don't want to spend the money on nice submersible pumps and then throw them in that gritty mess to destroy them. A lot of them say that they are for harsh sump pits, but it seems like a bad idea to me. Those pedestals are attached to a floor joist with a board. The smallest one is annoying. When both come on for flow over about 35-40 gallons per minute coming into the hole, the whole bedroom above that jars because they're attached to the floor joist, of course. The catch-22 is that there's nowhere else to affix them. The torque on that 1/2HP pedestal pump (cast iron) that is down there right now...there's no way that thing could be supported by a rock in the hole or braced by the wall on each side. 

It bothers me that there isn't a properly enclosed sump setup for the pumps to be in. I could dimple board the inside of the wall and flap it over the top of the cinderblocks (which are open on top all the way around with visible water in them that can go as high as halfway up the wall or about 1.5 feet deep during hard rains). Yet the dimple board setup is still "open" to the air and allows moisture, which I'm trying to get rid of. Even using dimple board, the back of the wall between the dirt and wall...all of that is open. I can put filter fabric around the inside of the wall before I fill it with gravel. I would think that the gravel itself behind the wall, inside of the holes of the cinderblocks and inside of the wall would kind of filter out most of the dirt and only allow water to pass before reaching the sump basin. The perforated sump basin in the top of the gravel would also be wrapped with filter fabric before it is put in, just as a backup.

Given how serious this problem seems to be with the water, it seems to me that filling the hole completely kind of helps with the entire integrity of the crawlspace. It holds everything in place, keeps any more dirt from moving around and washing out from under the crawlspace foundation behind the wall and just makes everything "neater" in general. Granted, at the sacrifice of space. I'd lose the room to stand up in there, but gain a drier crawlspace and have an actual pump setup that would be better and functional. I'm fine with that. It was the size of a regular crawlspace before they dug it out that way, anyway. Gravel seems to be my only option. I have had people before tell me that I should fill it with dirt. If there's that much water in the surrounding ground and existing water flow holes are already there, I think it would seriously mess with any dirt that would be filled in and still loose on the bottom. Granted, it couldn't move it too far, but I think it would cause problems. 

If there is an old pipe somehow under the ground, I'm going to have to leave it. I have pretty much given up with digging and looking for anything else outside. Since the house has a raised rock and mortar foundation that is just sitting on top of the ground and nothing else below that, the ground will always have a way to let water into the crawlspace areas that are below the outside ground level.

At this point, I don't really care whether the pumps trigger or not after it is filled in. If they do, fine. If they don't, that's fine, too. I'm not trying to keep them from triggering. It would be nice, but...at the end of the day, I'm just trying to do this to seal this disaster off and make the crawlspace more normal. I don't want a bunch of open water running across the floor into a little pool anymore. Even if the equipment was out of the hole, I'd still be concerned about letting the entire hole flood to see how deep it would get. That would tell me how far it would flood (which I'm confident would be nearly up to the top of the wall due to the hydrostatic pressure), but I'd also have an enormous haven for mold shortly after that.

I'm not knocking anyone's help. I appreciate everyone helping out so much with this. Just trying to nip it in the bud and be done with it. Even if I relocate the equipment...if I put a new tankless water heater in the crawlspace, the moisture is bad for the electronics. The moisture is bad for the furnace electronics, as well. I need more quotes on flipping the furnace (and possibly moving it completely off to the side in the crawlspace). If their quote for flipping furnace meets or exceeds that of a new and possibly smaller furnace setup, they'd rip that one out and start over. Even more so in that case, I wouldn't want it to be moist down there. So...I'm 90% sure that I'd like to fill it to within inches of the top of the wall and do the concrete to seal it off for good.


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## slownsteady

It's all okay with me. I just want to separate the obsession from the reality. You have good reasons to fill it, so go for it. Make sure to fill the spaces around the outside of the blocks too, to balance pressure on the wall AND PREVENT AS MUCH INFILTRATION AS POSSIBLE. (sorry for the caps...fat fingers and too lazy to retype)


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## jmr106

slownsteady said:


> It's all okay with me. I just want to separate the obsession from the reality. You have good reasons to fill it, so go for it. Make sure to fill the spaces around the outside of the blocks too, to balance pressure on the wall AND PREVENT AS MUCH INFILTRATION AS POSSIBLE. (sorry for the caps...fat fingers and too lazy to retype)



Figuring out the gravel needed for inside of the hole is easy. The outside and inside volume of the walls should be interesting, with so many variables. I'll be trying to figure out how to not over-order or under-order to account for that.

I have become rather obsessed/preoccupied with finding a solution, actually. I'm on year 2 now specifically focusing on the problem, so I'm ready to get done with it. 

My biggest motivation:

1) Worrying about the power going out and flooding all equipment or a saturated ground producing enough flow to overwhelm both pumps. Given that they can both pump 108GPM combined and I have seen a single 30-minute cloudburst thunderstorm (without a saturated ground) dump enough water to nearly overwhelm the pumps...that bothers me.
2) Those pumps happen to be under what is my bedroom for now. That pretty much sucks. They're loud and vibrate the room, but I can't change them yet because I wanted the new ones to stay cleaner when it has been fixed. I've had a lot of sleepless nights and mornings as a result (and a lot of crappy tired workdays as a result), so I'm pretty motivated to not have to worry about that flooding anymore.

I think we have determined that there would be no harm or risk of collapse from me filling all of it in flush with the top of the wall and outside of the wall. I'm still trying to figure out if I'm going to violate any codes in filling this and doing it that way. I presume that a waterproofing company would likely suggest the same. A perimeter drain would be a failure because it isn't on top of the ground or just barely under the ground, but is all coming from deep in the ground. There's no slab foundation for them to dig up and waterproof, unlike a lot of houses. They could waterproof the (already dry) crawlspace all that they wanted, but I'd hazard a guess that they couldn't stop this water even by grading the land or putting in whatever drains they thought would help in the yard.

I'll be putting in the water table test pipes in the yard soon just to see what it tells me when it rains a lot again. It seems to be worse in late winter/early spring. I presume that the water table is rising even more during this time of year.


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