# 1825 house with sagging floors...?



## ilm121209 (Sep 11, 2016)

my wife and I are looking to buy a house, but theres a catch...

the exterior walls are 20+ inch thick stone from the foundation to the roofline. there are no cracks or bulges. at some point in the last almost 200 years the center supports for the floor joists started to sink into the dirt basement floor causing all 3 floors to funnel in to the center. somewhere along the way someone poured new footings in the center of the basement and installed 6 jacks to lift the floors. it helped but there is still a bad slope to the center of the house on all 3 floors. they didnt care. they renovated the house and modified the doors and baseboards to match the slope of the floor. that looks to have been at least 20 years ago, maybe a lot more, and the floors have not sagged any farther and are actually very solid. the house is fantastic and in a great area with a great school district and decent taxes.

heres the question.. if the house inspector says the exterior walls and foundation are solid, could i gut the house, floor joists and all, until it is nothing more than a stone shell with a roof, and then rebuild it from the first floor up after digging the basement floor down a few feet and installing a proper french drain and new footers? (the basement only has about 6 foot of head height and i would like to be able for get that to a foll 8' so i can finish that space later in life) ive worked on and off doing renovations and remodeling for the last 13 years ive just never done anything quite this extreme and wanted others opinions. thanks


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## bud16415 (Sep 11, 2016)

There are structural requirements and there are practical and economic requirements. 

The short answer is of course anything can be done and has been done. Without a lot of photos and maybe a on site evaluation even a pro would just be guessing. 

If your house is in a location where you could invest a couple hundred thousand dollars and the desirability of a 200 year old stone house rebuilt to modern specs inside could still turn a profit if resold then your plan works for me. The other way I could see doing it is if you are wealthy and or have the abilities to do this kind of work and are so in love with the house you are willing to transform it knowing you will never get back your cost in dollars and effort then go for it. I don&#8217;t believe the second example to be the case or you wouldn&#8217;t be seeking advice though. 

I think the house was lifted and supported as much as the person doing the renovation felt it could take without doing more damage than it fixed. Wood framing that bent and took a set over 200 years cant be bent back over night or even over the course of months or a year. Things take a set and at some point more straitening just causes breakage IMO. 

Some people find the slopping floors charming and part of the period of the construction. The house is an antique. Sometimes if the house is made stable they will take up the floors and shim the joists back to level and then put the old floors back. it is a lot of work and whoever did the last work for whatever reason saw that as too much cost or too much work.

Any way you go the folks here will be more than willing to help and offer advice with your project if you get the house. 

Welcome to the forum.


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## nealtw (Sep 11, 2016)

There will be a bunch of well meaning opinions here, Have an engineer look it over.
Under binning a concrete foundation is one thing, you only do a few feet at a time but with a stacked stone foundation, what holds up that section while you are under it?


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## joecaption (Sep 12, 2016)

Fixing the floors is often just one small aspect when working on a home that old.
Old wiring, lack of enough outlets often with no grounds old steel supply lines, single pane windows, ECT.


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## ilm121209 (Sep 13, 2016)

My financing and some extra money for renovations is falling in line. At least enough that we should be able to finish the first floor and turn half of the second floor into a master suite so we could move in and then finish the rest one room at a time. We are going back Saturday with a few friends to go over the house in detail. I am going to measure and draw a rough layout of the entire house and then go through room by room like the inspector will and photograph everything and take notes of anything that I see. Then once I get home I can review, put costs to each repair, and decide on my offer amount.

Anxiety is starting to really weigh in. Even doing as much of the work as possible myself, the cost of renovations and heating this monster of a house could ruin me if I'm not smart.


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## bud16415 (Sep 13, 2016)

You didn&#8217;t mention location so we can&#8217;t comment on heating and AC. Unless you are an expert in quite a few fields it will be tough to figure that out as 20&#8221; thick stone walls is a lot of thermal mass. 

You mentioned being smart and I&#8217;m not saying you are not because we don&#8217;t really know your background. But one of the biggest attributes to being smart is to know when you need help.


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## ilm121209 (Sep 14, 2016)

Eastern Pennsylvania USA.

And I'm here asking for help. Not that I couldn't get it elsewhere, my dad was a contractor for many many years before he got sick but he keeps trying to convince me to turn it into 4 apartments and rent it out.

As far as being smart, well I don't know about all that. But I could do and have done all aspects of renovating and remodeling houses. I just hate doing spackle. I did my entire house just me and a few friends here and there. Electrical, plumbing, sewer drains, heater system, full perimeter French drain, etc etc... But once the drywall was up someone else came in and speckled it. Haha


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## bud16415 (Sep 14, 2016)

Welcome from across the state. 

It sounds like you have the skills etc to do your big plan and if the budget is there why not. The only part I would that would be real tricky is the basement dig. In a 200 year old house you will find no poured footings just a base row of stones. When I see them dug deeper here they move in from the original wall and build a new short wall or sometimes a full wall. most of the time this leaves a shelf about 2 to 3&#8221; up. I think they do this like a retaining wall with footer and do it a section at a time. 

Gutting all the way up the only concern is do the walls gain support or have they taken support over the years from the structure within? Both of those problems need to be really thought thru well. 

How&#8217;s it looking have you put a bid in yet?


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## nealtw (Sep 14, 2016)

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9dQ4pl5Ii4[/ame]


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## ilm121209 (Sep 15, 2016)

Not so funny side not. Hooked my truck battery to a battery tender last night. Woke up to screaming. The battery tender was in flames. Luckily it didn't damage anything else in the process, the mud room just smells like burnt plastic now.....

Aside from that, the bid will be going in within the next few days. I have one more bank meeting to get yet another pre approval. Trying to get the best rate possible. And 2 structural engineers from my wife's work are coming out saturday. After that it's offer until it's mine or I refuse to pay any higher


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## ilm121209 (Sep 15, 2016)

Great video! I see he reinforced with rebar and concrete but did he then backfill with dirt? The one part of the video it looked like there was concrete filled between the old wall and the new wall


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## bud16415 (Sep 15, 2016)

Sorry to hear about the charger burning up, glad it was just smoke and didnt catch anything else. 

I think in the video he did back fill not sure how he compacted it though. The concrete you see I think was a cap he was pouring on top to make it into a shelf. For sure I would use rebar and fill the blocks as you go. fill should be no problem you have all the dirt you will be digging out. Maybe compute how much you are taking out and then allow the same for fill and you wont be carrying buckets of dirt up the stairs. 

Before you are done you will know the true meaning of the old saying Digging holes to bury dirt.

Good luck on the purchase. Will you be advising the bank of the major construction project you plan or rolling in the cost of that into the house. I dont know all the legal ramifications doing that but I know sometimes if you are not a contractor they add stipulations.


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## nealtw (Sep 15, 2016)

ilm121209 said:


> Great video! I see he reinforced with rebar and concrete but did he then backfill with dirt? The one part of the video it looked like there was concrete filled between the old wall and the new wall



You may not want to do a whole wall at a time, a good sized footing below that wall, drainage has to be worked in there too.
Interior walls or posts will have to be replaced.


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