# Mississippi and N-Carolina



## frodo (Apr 7, 2016)

the lgbt community is all in a twitter, because we refuse to bake cakes for who we want.LOL

this whole thing is so ridiculous,

here is the scuttle butt at the coffee shop.
overheard conversation

I dont give a rats *** who you are,,You are not gong to tell me I have to do a GD thing. If I dont want to make you a cake,  I aint gonna make you a cake.


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## havasu (Apr 7, 2016)

What ever happened to the signs that say "We have the right to refuse service to anyone"? 

Have those also been outlawed, like the Confederate Flag?


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## slownsteady (Apr 7, 2016)

It's all fine until you see a sign that says "we don't serve cops or plumbers".


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## bud16415 (Apr 7, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> It's all fine until you see a sign that says "we don't serve cops or plumbers".



 Actually I think you could put up that sign I dont think cops or plumbers are considered any kind of a special interest group. Now if the sign said we dont serve gay cops or bi plumbers now thats a different story.  

No shirt, no shoes, no service


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## bud16415 (Apr 7, 2016)

Can a cop marry a plumber in Mississippi? 

And why is it so much fun to type Mississippi?


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## nealtw (Apr 7, 2016)

If a plumber can't buy a cake, he might start his own bakery and if no one stops that you will have all kinds of plumbers starting all kinds of businesses and the whole neighborhood will be bad.


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## frodo (Apr 7, 2016)

m eye crooked letter crooked letter eye crooked letter crooked letter eye hump back hump back eye

I have been told I could not eat because I had did not have shoes on.......so I put the boots on that I took off that had 10 pounds of mud on them

and kicked mud all over the restaurant   :beer:

The thing is.   we feel, we have the right to serve who ever we want. 
just as you have the right to go some where else.

let me ask you a question.
IF, a restaurant owner,  or cake decorator told you he did not feel comfortable serving you or making your cake.

would you REALLY  demand that that person makes you a plate of food or a cake for your guests ?

the answer, is of course NO.  so in reality,  it is not about the issue of whether I want to serve them or not.

IT is about them trying to be treated differently or better than others,  also it is a control issue.


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## frodo (Apr 7, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Can a cop marry a plumber in Mississippi?
> 
> And why is it so much fun to type Mississippi?



yes  but if you get a divorce you are still relatives,,:rofl:


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## slownsteady (Apr 7, 2016)

frodo said:


> m eye crooked letter crooked letter eye crooked letter crooked letter eye hump back hump back eye
> 
> I have been told I could not eat because I had did not have shoes on.......so I put the boots on that I took off that had 10 pounds of mud on them
> 
> ...


I don't disagree, I was just making a point.


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## nealtw (Apr 7, 2016)

I agree, I would not want to buy a cake from someone who is likely going to spit in the mix. But I might also be pssed if every one within so many miles turns me down.


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## frodo (Apr 7, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> I don't disagree, I was just making a point.




i see your point,  and raise you a point,  one more point we will have enough for a square,  then we can think outside the box   :rofl:


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## frodo (Apr 7, 2016)

if every one turned you down then it JUUUUUST might be time for you to sit down and have a little look at yourself.

the problem is not always every body else.

ask yourself this question.

Why are they turning me down ?

HOW I;m I to know your gay?  maybe your actions are offending others?

this goes back to respect,  IF you want respect from me,  you must first show me respect.

IE

You KNOW, that some people do not like lgbt,  so why throw it in their face? all you are doing is LOOKING for a reaction to your own behavior

this reminds me of a friend that got divorced
the first time,  i was on his side,  stood up for him, it was all the girls fault
the second time,  i was skeptical, but he is a bud,  it was the girls fault
3rd time,  lets face it bro,  your an AH  and cant get along.  I think I will date your ex


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## nealtw (Apr 7, 2016)

But then I know some flamboyant straight people that act like they missed their calling.


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## bud16415 (Apr 7, 2016)

You don&#8217;t have to like someone or agree with someone to do business with them. And if you start picking and choosing you are cutting off your own livelihood. I have a friend that fixes cars and I stop in and in his window he has a vote for so in so sign. I ask him what&#8217;s up with the sign and I happened to like the guy he had the sign for. He said oh he stopped in and asked if I would put his sign up so I said sure. So I said well what if his opponent asked the same. He said hell no. I told him why didn&#8217;t you open up your cash drawer and give him a grand when he was here. He said I don&#8217;t have that kind of money. I said well a grand would have been cheap that sign is taking away half your business for god knows how long. You should have said no to the sign but here is a 1000 bucks plaster more signs everyplace you can. 

It is fine if the guy that owns a cake shop to hate anyone he wants it&#8217;s his personal right. But his business is not him and he&#8217;s responsible to his kids and workers and so many other things to keep his personal views out of his business. That&#8217;s my opinion. It is smart business that&#8217;s all. Now if they want two guys on top of the cake you just say we don&#8217;t carry them we don&#8217;t have the demand. Bring your own I will stick it on or I can order one it will be this much extra. 

Cops and plumbers and whoever can have any feelings they want about any group but when the sink needs fixed or the guy is in trouble or speeding everyone gets the same treatment. 

That&#8217;s my   :2cents:


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## frodo (Apr 7, 2016)

the question is






If the United States Military can recognise a muslim's faith and let him wear a beard and rag on his head while in uniform

then the government can damn well recognise a christian faith , who believes the bible says Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve

simple, either recognise for all or for none


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## frodo (Apr 7, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> You dont have to like someone or agree with someone to do business with them. And if you start picking and choosing you are cutting off your own livelihood. I have a friend that fixes cars and I stop in and in his window he has a vote for so in so sign. I ask him whats up with the sign and I happened to like the guy he had the sign for. He said oh he stopped in and asked if I would put his sign up so I said sure. So I said well what if his opponent asked the same. He said hell no. I told him why didnt you open up your cash drawer and give him a grand when he was here. He said I dont have that kind of money. I said well a grand would have been cheap that sign is taking away half your business for god knows how long. You should have said no to the sign but here is a 1000 bucks plaster more signs everyplace you can.
> 
> It is fine if the guy that owns a cake shop to hate anyone he wants its his personal right. But his business is not him and hes responsible to his kids and workers and so many other things to keep his personal views out of his business. Thats my opinion. It is smart business thats all. Now if they want two guys on top of the cake you just say we dont carry them we dont have the demand. Bring your own I will stick it on or I can order one it will be this much extra.
> 
> ...




agree,,,......


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## Chris (Apr 7, 2016)

frodo said:


> the question is
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It seems now days you have to accept or recognize, religions, beliefs and how someone identifies them self unless it is of the Christian faith or conservative views. We have to worry so much about feelings that we cant get anything done.


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## nealtw (Apr 7, 2016)

Chris said:


> It seems now days you have to accept or recognize, religions, beliefs and how someone identifies them self unless it is of the Christian faith or conservative views. We have to worry so much about feelings that we cant get anything done.



What is it a Christian is not allowed to wear or where is it a Christian is not allowed to go?

I think we can agree that freedom to think and feel is a right. We all have the right to fear or hate but to bring that to a public forum, it is an attempt to limit some one else's right to feel free. That is hard to stomach from a country that claims greatest freedoms in the world.


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## Chris (Apr 7, 2016)

A christian is allowed to do or say whatever they want just like every other religion in America. I don't know of anyone that cannot go or wear what they want in this country. Excpet I can't go to Chicago without being robbed and maybe killed. I am more referring to if a Christian openly believes what is in the bible than they are mocked or looked down upon by these same people that are preaching equality.


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## nealtw (Apr 7, 2016)

I am no expert but I think freedom of religion as designed by 13 colonies each with their own religious laws kind of precluded one religious group could install their laws over another but laws would be written by the government to serve all.


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## Chris (Apr 7, 2016)

To bad laws get changed and ignored or understood in a different way.


I blame it all on lawyers, everyone is scared of a lawsuit.


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## frodo (Apr 7, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I am no expert but I think freedom of religion as designed by 13 colonies each with their own religious laws kind of precluded one religious group could install their laws over another but laws would be written by the government to serve all.



not sure but i think you are referring to what is called the 1st amendment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

If a store keeper,  feels his religion says it is wrong for gays to be gay,
refuses to serve that person,  
then, If the gubment demands he serve said person.
then the gubment is prohibiting the free exercise thereof


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## nealtw (Apr 7, 2016)

Chris said:


> To bad laws get changed and ignored or understood in a different way.


So do the moral teachings of religions.



Chris said:


> I blame it all on lawyers, everyone is scared of a lawsuit.



Instead of conceding a point change the subject.:rofl:


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## nealtw (Apr 7, 2016)

frodo said:


> not sure but i think you are referring to what is called the 1st amendment.
> 
> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances
> 
> ...



Nope I cant argue that point but I think there is something about a business open to the public is a public place while it is open, so are some peoples not public?


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## Chris (Apr 7, 2016)

nealtw said:


> So do the moral teachings of religions.
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of conceding a point change the subject.:rofl:



They do and thats a problem. I don't know enough about religion to argue anything for or against. 



nealtw said:


> Nope I cant argue that point but I think there is something about a business open to the public is a public place while it is open, so are some peoples not public?



Depends on if your are here legally I guess?

Its a tough one. I believe you can treat your potential customers how you want because they are what keep you in business and if they don't come than you have no business but I also believe you should treat people good and how you would like to be treated.

It all comes down to why not just don't push your agendas on others and they will have no idea what you stand for or believe in and we can just all work together and be happy again. I don't go to a store and tell them my life story or who I vote for so they just treat me like any other customer. I don't walk in and say "Hey I'm gay! Make me a cake!"


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## nealtw (Apr 7, 2016)

You have to be care full what you wish for, anyone I think can make that cake but in a country where everyone wants to privatize everything. What happens when one can not fly or ride a train. The government starts a transportation company? That is what happened when your government said everyone had to have insurance when building in a flood plain but did not require insurance companies to offer the policy.
If we as a people don't make other peoples feel comfortable in our community, those other people will eventually find a place where they are welcome. That will happen where the economy is already down and money is king so they don't get turned away. So now you have a growing community not liked or or treated as equal by the rest of the people. Now you are building that neighborhood you would not take your kids too. What do you think their kids grow up feeling about freedom in your country?



Chris said:


> They do and thats a problem. I don't know enough about religion to argue anything for or against.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## slownsteady (Apr 7, 2016)

So is this why ghettos form? Everyone wants to be with their own people? Are there gays ghettos with gay bakers and gay plumbers? We all benefit from the intermix of cultures.


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## bud16415 (Apr 7, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Are there gays ghettos with gay bakers and gay plumbers?



 That would be the west coast, and you left out gay butchers and candle stick makers.


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## slownsteady (Apr 7, 2016)

They're all around you; you just don't know it. And maybe that's the point of this thread.


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## Chris (Apr 7, 2016)

They are all around me and I do know it. It's plastered all over their cars and clothes and how they go so far out of their way to make sure I know it. Not saying I have anything against it but why the need to push it on others.

Same category as street bicyclists here. The law says they may use a full lane so during traffic times instead of riding in the empty bike lane one guy will be doing 5 mph taking that whole lane while yelling at anyone who tries to get around him.


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## nealtw (Apr 7, 2016)

:agree:.............................


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## frodo (Apr 8, 2016)

thats is my whole point.

if you want to be a peter puffer  then be a private  peter puffer behind closed doors with a consenting adult.  ya'll just lay their and puff peters all night

but during the day,  I see no reason for you to put your sexuality preferences out in the street.  refrain from public peter puffing.

It is A RESPECT issue,  

if you want me to respect you.  show decorum , 

If I do not know you have a propensity for public peter puffing ,  I have no reason to deny you baked goods


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## slownsteady (Apr 8, 2016)

frodo said:


> thats is my whole point.
> 
> if you want to be a peter puffer  then be a private  peter puffer behind closed doors with a consenting adult.  ya'll just lay their and puff peters all night
> 
> ...


I generally agree. But that's where it becomes the original problem. Two men (or women) lead normal lives, work regular jobs and keep the sexuality to themselves. Until they go to buy a wedding cake. Then the baker gets to make a judgement just because the cake has to say "Felix & Oscar"


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## nealtw (Apr 8, 2016)

I think refusing the work is just as dumb as trying to push someone to do something they don't want to. Treat people as you would be treated, can not be a sin. After a while more and more people figure out that they have friends that have been turned away and sooner or later the business will suffer.


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## Chris (Apr 8, 2016)

I just want to add that I work very closely with a guy that has completely opposite views as me on just about everything. We keep work professional and have not had any issues in the last five years.


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## KULTULZ (Apr 9, 2016)

Freedom of Religions initial attempt was to free people from The Church of England, pure and simple.

Christianity was then practiced openly only until recently where Christianity is being subdued as more Third World immigrants are being brought in to the change this country's culture.

Christianity has been attacked since its inception. Kinda makes one wonder if GOD is actually real. 

Must be...


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## frodo (Apr 9, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> I generally agree. But that's where it becomes the original problem. Two men (or women) lead normal lives, work regular jobs and keep the sexuality to themselves. Until they go to buy a wedding cake. Then the baker gets to make a judgement just because the cake has to say "Felix & Oscar"



I REALLY think that it is the Bakers RIGHT [as the owner of his business}
to deny service to anyone for any reason.

I also think he would be a fool for turning away the business, but it is HIS business to do as he wish's.
when you start telling a man how to run his business I think you need to open your wallet and start paying his bills, OR shut up, you have no dog in his hunt


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## frodo (Apr 9, 2016)

so whats next ?

if a homeless junky wonders into your business you are not allowed to throw his BO stinking *** out

because he has a "drug problem"   if you refuse his stinking of pee and vomit *** service the  gubment going to shut you down?

how about a KNOW pediphile ,  I myself would turn him away...might even thump his head one time.

BUT,,,you say I HAVE to serve him...I dont think so


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## slownsteady (Apr 9, 2016)

Calm down, it's a civilized discussion.

So let's suppose you get a call from a guy, he asks you to come on over and plumb his bathroom with rough outs for his upcoming renovation.  When you get there, maybe you see that it's two men, maybe their wedding picture is on the wall, ...whatever......  Do you turn around and walk out? Suppose you don't realize until you're half-way done; what do you do?


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## frodo (Apr 10, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Calm down, it's a civilized discussion.
> 
> So let's suppose you get a call from a guy, he asks you to come on over and plumb his bathroom with rough outs for his upcoming renovation.  When you get there, maybe you see that it's two men, maybe their wedding picture is on the wall, ...whatever......  Do you turn around and walk out? Suppose you don't realize until you're half-way done; what do you do?



me ?   i just do the work,,I am not hung up on the subject,

my beef is that if I decided.  I did not want to do the work,,I should not be sued for my beliefs.

you forget,  I am not against gay people, I am against government telling a shop owner who he will serve and who he wont.

I believe a shop owner, or plumbing contractor should be able to work for whoever they wish or not wish without fear of being sued or jailed
it is their business,they should be able to run it as they see fit


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## frodo (Apr 10, 2016)

I would like to reword that

If a contract is not signed  I reserve the right to back out at any time i wish, for any reason I wish

If a contract is signed and I back out I assume I will be sued for breach of contract, I am legally bound to complete the work

the 2 gentlemen with the bath renovation in my opinion,  have no more rights/or less rights   than a male/female couple


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## bud16415 (Apr 10, 2016)

There are as many forms of prejudice as there are people. Say two women come in to buy a cake or two men, or could it be a black man and a white woman or a white man and a black woman or just a black man and woman.  Say two middle easterners come in a man and a woman. Say two northerners a man and a woman come in to a Mississippi cake shop.  

I haven&#8217;t experienced too much of it in my life and have rarely had it directed in my direction but on a couple of occasions I have, I will relate one. 

I went into a store it was a small place down in SC in a small town kind of a hardware store farm and garden place to buy some stuff I needed for an older person I was visiting down there. I went up to the counter and asked an older woman if she had what I was looking for and before she could answer I heard a male voice from the back area say tell that GD Yankee we don&#8217;t have any and to get the F out. She got a funny look on her face and didn&#8217;t say a work the boss had spoken. I had a feeling she was married to the friendly old guy. I was a bit shocked and fighting the urge to be confrontational I looked up and saw the smallest white tail dear head mounted I had ever seen with a really small 4 point rack. If you did find a deer that small with antlers you might just shoot it as it would be some sort of genetically mutated deer in Pa. So I said ok I&#8217;ll go but before I leave can you tell me what kind of animal that is up there it, looks like a white tail but in all my life I never saw one so small knowing full well that was about what a SC white tail looked like. The old guy comes around out of the back and asks where you from boy. Instead of getting in his face I say oh Pennsylvania I said our white tails we mount are normally 12 point or more and go a couple hundred pounds heavier than that little guy. He kind of smiled and started chatting about this and that and asked me what I was doing down his way I told him who I was seeing and what we were building and he knew the people I was there to see. Finally he said ok what can I do you out of. I told him how up north Walmart was known to move in to an area and in a short time wreck a lot of little mom and pop shops. And as he was 5 miles closer I figured I would check his place out. He asked again what I wanted and I said no that&#8217;s ok I have quite a list here I&#8217;ll just head on down to Walmart and see how they handle the Yankee thing. I told him I would keep an eye out for any of them big bucks out on the road as I would hate to total my truck hitting one. Told him it was real nice chatting and he had a nice little store but I best be going I had a lot of work to get done and I was only going to be down a couple weeks.  The woman had a bit of a grin as I left.  

I didn&#8217;t go on national tv I didn&#8217;t raise my voice I didn&#8217;t write my congressman I voted with my feet. I figured it was his right to be a grumpy old fart still fighting the Civil War or what they call it in SC The war of northern aggression. And it was my right to Go to Walmart that is way to smart to care about anything but making money.


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## havasu (Apr 10, 2016)

^ That's a great story.


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## slownsteady (Apr 10, 2016)

could be the focus of a movie,...........................


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## bud16415 (Apr 11, 2016)

To kill a mocking bird.


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## frodo (Apr 11, 2016)

That is indeed a good story.  

when ever i see a 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I exercise my right to turn around and spend my money elsewhere.  I dont try and sue..


the question is, why is it considered prejudice for store owners not to want to be sued for refusing service to whoever they wish not to serve?

If I go to walmart bakery and order a confederate flag birthday cake I will be told no.

 if i order a wedding cake with 2 men on the top .  If the baker  says no.  I can sue them ?

that double standard garbage makes no since to me.

seems to me a certain group of people are trying to have "special" rights.


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## slownsteady (Apr 11, 2016)

You have a good point there. Is it a *fact* that Walmart won't put the Confederate flag on your cake?


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## Chris (Apr 11, 2016)

I think we should all go out and see. I know a good lawyer.


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## frodo (Apr 11, 2016)

it is a fact that they say it is company policy note to.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/06/30/confederate-flag-isis-walmart-cake/29495379/


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## slownsteady (Apr 11, 2016)

Ok, I admit you have a case.


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## Chris (Apr 11, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Ok, I admit you have a case.



I just wanted to save this here.:hide:


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## nealtw (Apr 11, 2016)

Let me point out that I agree there should be one set of rules.


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## Chris (Apr 11, 2016)

Should be. We can offend people on both sides all day long. Until we all agree that we will not all agree on the same things this type of crap will keep on going. Instead of trying to fix our spending issues and education, child welfare and all that we pick the little things of a flag or a sign or what someone is wearing, really I couldn't care less what you are wearing as long as you are wearing something. I don't care what flag you fly but please if it is not American can you please fly it under the good ol USA Flag? 

If we banned everything a crazy person or killer wore, flew or drove there would not be much left.


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## nealtw (Apr 11, 2016)

The gay laws are fairly new and all the talking about the flag has been big lately, it does take time for everyone to get on the same page.

I think I heard that Walmart stopped selling the flag. I could see the reasoning that if we don't sell the flag, then we can't do the cake. I can understand the reasoning. But that doesn't make it right.


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## frodo (Apr 11, 2016)

nealtw said:


> The gay laws are fairly new and all the talking about the flag has been big lately, it does take time for everyone to get on the same page.
> 
> I think I heard that Walmart stopped selling the flag. I could see the reasoning that if we don't sell the flag, then we can't do the cake. I can understand the reasoning. But that doesn't make it right.




their should be no "GAY" laws.  that is the problem.

one set of laws for everyone. 

matter of fact, i really do not think we need the government telling us who we can or can not sell to;
that is not the governments job to baby sit our every thought and action


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## nealtw (Apr 11, 2016)

frodo said:


> their should be no "GAY" laws.  that is the problem.
> 
> one set of laws for everyone.
> 
> ...



I agree, people should be accepted as people , no need for special laws.


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## Chris (Apr 11, 2016)

frodo said:


> their should be no "GAY" laws.  that is the problem.
> 
> one set of laws for everyone.
> 
> ...



I agree. I was reading a news story today about this new lawsuit, now that we are required equal pay for men and women in equal jobs no matter the experience or ability to do said job now we have a lawsuit for discrimination based on race. Supposed to be the biggest hurdle jumped in the race issue. 




nealtw said:


> I agree, people should be accepted as people , no need for special laws.



Couldn't agree more, I don't care if you are black, white, brown, orange, gay, straight, identify as a man or a woman or a sea turtle. I will accept you as you put yourself out there. If you act like a normal human I will treat you like a normal human, If you act like you need special treatment because of you life choices than I will probably just ignore you. That and if you have a penis you use the boys room, you aint sharing a bathroom with my daughter.


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## nealtw (Apr 11, 2016)

The Romans figured out the toilet deal.


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## slownsteady (Apr 11, 2016)

> now that we are required equal pay for men and women in equal jobs no matter the experience or ability


Experience and ability are not in question....equal pay for equal work has not been reality for women.


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## slownsteady (Apr 11, 2016)

The only real solution at this point is single-seaters for everyone.


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## Chris (Apr 11, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Experience and ability are not in question....equal pay for equal work has not been reality for women.




Slightly different locally. There are many woman far exceeding men in the work force.  I think when they do that comparison it is not normal jobs that the average person has but more of the elitist jobs. For example my pipe supply saleswoman makes over 100k a year while her equal a man is making about 75. I personally don't know or even think I have met anyone that falls in this category. Have you?


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## slownsteady (Apr 11, 2016)

Chris said:


> Slightly different locally. There are many woman far exceeding men in the work force.  I think when they do that comparison it is not normal jobs that the average person has but more of the elitist jobs. For example my pipe supply saleswoman makes over 100k a year while her equal a man is making about 75. I personally don't know or even think I have met anyone that falls in this category. Have you?


Not enough info here to make a judgement on. could be all sorts of reasons.


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## Chris (Apr 11, 2016)

Numbers. Numbers as in profits to the company are what base most all peoples wages in a sales position.

Not in sales I would guess it's what you know and how hard you work to earn it. I know men that have been in the field for 20 years that are not worth half of what a guy who has the motivation and has been in the industry for a couple years.

I guess what I am getting at is that some of these so called equal rights are probably already a lot more equal then we think.


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## nealtw (Apr 12, 2016)

I don't spend a lot of time figuring how fair it is that most well paid people get paid but I would think at any level, I would be pissed if I spent 10 years teaching and supervising 10 or 15 underlings and come to find they all make more than I do. Then to find out I have no right to do anything about and could have been fired for asking what others earn.


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## frodo (Apr 12, 2016)

I used to work for a Mechanical Contractor  that  Had offices in 4 states.  They were/are not a small co.

I was a superintendent i ran work  also did my own hiring. 

Look,  it is sad but true, My responsibility is to hire you as low of a wage as I can, i am looking out for the bottom line on my job

If you are a timid type person you will be making less than another employee.

I work off of a spread sheet.    so much money is allocated for labor for suuch and such task..my job is to get the job done under the figures the bid boys 

have given me.  and yes,  if I do it  I get a bonus


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## frodo (Apr 12, 2016)

I stumbled across this, this morning  

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBfoFl0mnho"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBfoFl0mnho[/ame]


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## bud16415 (Apr 12, 2016)

It would have been a lot better if at the end he drove his motorcycle over the cake and off into the sunset.


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## bud16415 (Apr 12, 2016)

You can go into Walmart and ask for anything on a cake you want that is your right. They can put it on or not that is their right. You can have them make a ISIS cake and if the baker has no idea what it is and never had a directive not to make one and you sneak it past and get it made that doesn&#8217;t mean Walmart supports ISIS it just means you pulled one over on them that&#8217;s all. If they didn&#8217;t make this guys cake and he is bellyaching about it he is just about the same as the LGBT folks making a big deal about a wedding cake the way I see it. Everyone&#8217;s perspective of a position is slanted to their beliefs and feelings. Now if the guy wanted to go to his next motorbike convention and tell everyone he sees stop shopping at Walmart they wouldn&#8217;t make me a cake that&#8217;s his right. If about 20 million of his close friends see the video and agree that is their right. I assume you agree with him then just stop shopping at Walmart and Walmart will go away. I like Chick-fil-A chicken sandwiches. They are not open on Sunday and more than once I was hoping they were. It is a religious issue that they are closed and if I agree with it or not it is their right to take a super good chicken sandwich selling day and close up. It&#8217;s their gig to do how they want. If you don&#8217;t like something then change it if you can&#8217;t change it vote with your mouth or feet in a civil manner. Go into a bar drunk and the bartender says sorry I can&#8217;t serve you. If you get a million drunks together and get a law changed saying drunks are discriminated by bartenders. Then 10 million people better get together and vote the ones out that made the law. That&#8217;s what I plan on doing in the next election.


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## Chris (Apr 12, 2016)

All I have to say is I am voting for Bernie and quitting my job, if you can't beat em might as well join them.


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## slownsteady (Apr 12, 2016)

frodo said:


> I stumbled across this, this morning


Same clip you pointed out in post#49. That's how I fact-checked.


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## nealtw (Apr 12, 2016)

So we can a agree, we don't need to see flaming gay people or a store that makes a big deal about a cake.

Add to that people that flame about cakes, guns and welfare.


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## Chris (Apr 12, 2016)

Can we add in people that flame about race and equality?


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## slownsteady (Apr 12, 2016)

Everybody flames about something. You can only pick and choose so many debates.


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## Chris (Apr 12, 2016)

Depends on how much time you have.


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## bud16415 (Apr 12, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Same clip you pointed out in post#49. That's how I fact-checked.



Looks like a different stumble to me.


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## bud16415 (Apr 12, 2016)

nealtw said:


> So we can a agree, we don't need to see flaming gay people or a store that makes a big deal about a cake.
> 
> Add to that people that flame about cakes, guns and welfare.



Is flaming a PC term we are allowed to use. I lost my list of banned words.


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## bud16415 (Apr 12, 2016)

Chris said:


> All I have to say is I am voting for Bernie and quitting my job, if you can't beat em might as well join them.



You do know when you join Bernies team and Im not saying it is a bad plan at all but to get all the free stuff you have to first give up the stuff you got. Unless your part of the main hub. Then you can be the average man but still have personal jets and the like. 

I have a young friend that got out of med school about 2 years ago and for 8 years he was quite compassionate and quite liberal all thru school. Two years in the real world now paying taxes and his outlook has reversed 180. It is all about your viewpoint. 

Im all for redistribution of wealth I told him, The smarter you are and the harder you work the more gets redistributed to you.


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## slownsteady (Apr 12, 2016)

You can have a flaming bigot, a flaming sports fan, a flaming bird-watcher..., who might be watching flaming flamingos.


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## slownsteady (Apr 12, 2016)

We're heading down the same 'ol rabbit hole folks. I don't really care to go there again with the same people holding the same views and making the same old arguments. There's no point to it.


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## Chris (Apr 12, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> You do know when you join Bernies team and Im not saying it is a bad plan at all but to get all the free stuff you have to first give up the stuff you got. Unless your part of the main hub. Then you can be the average man but still have personal jets and the like.
> 
> I have a young friend that got out of med school about 2 years ago and for 8 years he was quite compassionate and quite liberal all thru school. Two years in the real world now paying taxes and his outlook has reversed 180. It is all about your viewpoint.
> 
> Im all for redistribution of wealth I told him, The smarter you are and the harder you work the more gets redistributed to you.



I agree, the bernie plan only favors you if you little and don't want much in life.

I was about the same, i grew up dirt floor poor and was fairly liberal because I wanted something for nothing or I was jealous of my neighbor having stuff I did not. In my teenage years I saw and hung out with the people and families getting that something for nothing and yeah they got it for nothing but it still wasn't a great life. They had a car, roof over their head and food on the table but that was about it yet they still did not strive for anything better. They were happy because it just came every month, a few of them had more kids to make more money but really that was the extent of it. In all honesty it is not a bad life if you only need or want the basics. My problem is I had dreams of nice things and being able to travel or buy things when I wanted and not just when I needed. My grandfather put it in my head that I needed to work for the stuff I wanted and work hard. I dropped out of high school (He didn't like that much) and went to work, soon I was a 15 year old with more money than my friends families had. By 18 I was working three jobs. By my early 20's I found myself not spending much time with my old friends or their families because their views and mine no longer matched.

Fast forward another 15 years and all I hear from them is how things were handed to me and I must have lied cheated and stole what I have because no one under 30 that came from nothing could be a successful business owner. I only became that because I set goals and worked my *** off. Now days I find my views are more on trying to keep what I have earned. 

I feel for people and like to help out but growing up in that lifestyle I really know the mentality behind it and much of it is how little can I do for free money.


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## Chris (Apr 12, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> We're heading down the same 'ol rabbit hole folks. I don't really care to go there again with the same people holding the same views and making the same old arguments. There's no point to it.



Let's kick that rabbit out this time.

I like a good debate but they can get stuck from time to time. I enjoy talking to the guys here about it because its not all the same view.


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## frodo (Apr 12, 2016)

so we are all in agreement then,  I am right every ones else is wrong.

wish I had the magic lock button, I would use it right here.


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## nealtw (Apr 12, 2016)

Chris said:


> All I have to say is I am voting for Bernie and quitting my job, if you can't beat em might as well join them.



I have listened to a few of his speeches along with all the others. Perhaps you could fill me in on what he has said about unemployment insurance or welfare?


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## nealtw (Apr 12, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Is flaming a PC term we are allowed to use. I lost my list of banned words.



Perhaps you can tell me why it is important to speak politically correct.


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## frodo (Apr 12, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I have listened to a few of his speeches along with all the others. Perhaps you could fill me in on what he has said about unemployment insurance or welfare?











free everything for everybody....except....the part you dont hear, the small print

90% taxes



http://www.ontheissues.org/Economic/Bernie_Sanders_Welfare_+_Poverty.htm


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## nealtw (Apr 12, 2016)

frodo said:


> free everything for everybody....except....the part you dont hear, the small print
> 
> 90% taxes
> 
> ...



To bad you can't find a video of that, because that is not what he has said.


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## frodo (Apr 12, 2016)

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Bernie_Sanders.htm#Welfare_+_Poverty
wants to extend benefits fron 39 weeks to 59


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## Chris (Apr 12, 2016)

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aWSbtmA7yQg[/ame]

I got bored with searching after that one.


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## nealtw (Apr 12, 2016)

frodo said:


> http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Bernie_Sanders.htm#Welfare_+_Poverty
> wants to extend benefits fron 39 weeks to 59



I couldn't find that in the link, was that a vote or in a speech and when?


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## frodo (Apr 12, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I couldn't find that in the link, was that a vote or in a speech and when?



open the link.  at the top it says jobs. open that

http://screencast.com/t/vmVpZnAX7os


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## nealtw (Apr 13, 2016)

frodo said:


> open the link.  at the top it says jobs. open that
> 
> http://screencast.com/t/vmVpZnAX7os



We have cleared the last major procedural hurdle, Sen. Jack Reed (D-R.I.) said at a news conference after the vote. This represents a bipartisan approach to a critical problem that faces, at this point, about 2.8 million Americans and their families.

The unemployment extension deal was brokered by Reed and Sen. Dean Heller (R-Nev.)  who represent the two states with the highest levels of unemployment  but is expected to find a difficult path forward in the House.


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## slownsteady (Apr 13, 2016)

Bernie is a character. And he seems to *really believe* what he says... and that is a worthy value in any person....especially a politician. Can he actually pull off the stuff he is campaigning on? probably not. But he has the credibility that Hillary lacks.
Trump is an idiot and the exact opposite of Bernie, he doesn't believe a single word of what he says; he knows it and anybody who has *listened* to him knows it. But neither one of them is evil, and both of them will get chewed up by the political machine in DC. The guy who scares me the most is Cruz. He knows how to play politics, but if you have paid any attention to him over the years, you can see that he really wants the POWER. I think he will be the christian equivalent of the Ayatollah.....tell us what to do and think, and pass laws that will restrict any thing that HE doesn't like. Not good for America.


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## frodo (Apr 13, 2016)

I am for Trump,   He is a goof ball,  BUT, he is a business man,  He knows how to surround himself wth professionals to get er done.

as far as his foreign policy,  I think he will listen to the generals and FINALLY,,,let them off the leash

I think he is nutty enough to scary the beJesus out of foreign leaders. and maybe get back some respect that we have lost because of the poser we have had for 7 years now

and i am looking forward to a big beautiful wall



bernie...is in la la land.

nothing he proposes can be paid for.  he has high hopes, heart is in the right place,  but, socialism aint going to work here

he has no foreign policy what so ever, he will be a bigger joke than obama is

hillery will not go to jail, she is protected, but she will not be elected either,  the fbi will ruin her career
she will slink off ashamend

i agree ith every thing you said about cruse,  he is a snake,
and his pause talk makes me want to slap the hell out of him


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## nealtw (Apr 13, 2016)

frodo said:


> I am for Trump,   He is a goof ball,  BUT, he is a business man,  He knows how to surround himself wth professionals to get er done.
> 
> as far as his foreign policy,  I think he will listen to the generals and FINALLY,,,let them off the leash
> 
> ...



So you would want more young people going to the middle east.

I do get a kick out of the front runner crying because apparently someone else is more artful in the deal on delegates.


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## frodo (Apr 13, 2016)

I would prefer we all sit around the camp fire and sing campfire songs as we eat marshmallows and drink moonshine.

  isis needs to be stopped,  whether you want to admit it or not.
they have declared war on the USA and christians/jews.  


We fight them over there or here.   because I have seen war,  and I know the utter devastation it takes out on the civilian population
I choose we destroy another countries resources  and kill their innocent populace than to let that horror play out here.

WE can not stick our heads in the ground and hope it goes away,  The current administration is practising that shamfull approach right now
It is not working.

Further more, I agree 100% with Donald Trump In that we SUSPEND entry into the United states of ALL  Muslims
At this time for the safety of our country

and immediately stop all refugee's from entering  our country .  the Fbi has indicated it CAN NOT  properly vet the refugees.

AND, we should deport the refugees that have already arrived. 

set up a tent city in their Country for them,,,provide aid as needed.


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## nealtw (Apr 13, 2016)

So once you beat issis, are you going to stay to help the countries get back on there feet and change the hearts and minds of the people like Japan and Germany or are you going to leave so something else can grow to replace it.
Do you support Assad or the rebels.
It all sounds easy if you say it fast.


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## frodo (Apr 13, 2016)

why not worry about that when it arrives. 

I support Israel they are an alli


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## nealtw (Apr 13, 2016)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compa...tes_and_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
How does a state come in 51 in list of 50 states.


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## frodo (Apr 13, 2016)

District of columbia is not a state.


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## nealtw (Apr 13, 2016)

So who gets to be the ball checker at the ladies washroom?


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## Chris (Apr 13, 2016)

I'll do it........


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## nealtw (Apr 13, 2016)

We all have our problems. From what I understand the best after hours entertainment in Van. is two trans bars or clubs or what ever they call them. The $40 cover charge keeps the trash out but the trans are complaining, there are too many straights filling the places up.


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## frodo (Apr 13, 2016)

hellofa job.  guess it will be as it is now.

see a suspicious person call the law,  at that point being legal is a moot point.
the law will show up,  investigate by asking questions,  name will be run in the computer sop
the person will be detained for 15 minutes, if the name comes back clear they are good to go.
if they have a little outstanding BS.   free room and board.

I as a citizen have no idea that person is gay or pediphile, I will let the police make that distinction


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## nealtw (Apr 13, 2016)

But they have to pee really bad.


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## bud16415 (Apr 13, 2016)

nealtw said:


> So once you beat issis, are you going to stay to help the countries get back on there feet and change the hearts and minds of the people like Japan and Germany or are you going to leave so something else can grow to replace it.
> Do you support Assad or the rebels.
> It all sounds easy if you say it fast.



No we just tried the leaving plan for 7 years and we know how that worked out. Maybe we need to stick around next time and see how that works. We spend trillions and trillions anyway might as well spend it over there keeping an eye on things as anyplace else. Oh here is an idea why dont we keep the peace and at the same time say as long as we are here we will let you pay the bill by us selling your oil and spending half on defense and giving half to rebuild your country. 

Or we can fight them here as Frodo suggested.


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## nealtw (Apr 13, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> No we just tried the leaving plan for 7 years and we know how that worked out. Maybe we need to stick around next time and see how that works. We spend trillions and trillions anyway might as well spend it over there keeping an eye on things as anyplace else. Oh here is an idea why dont we keep the peace and at the same time say as long as we are here we will let you pay the bill by us selling your oil and spending half on defense and giving half to rebuild your country.
> 
> Or we can fight them here as Frodo suggested.



So now you are going to have a religious test at the boarder.
You will loose, who knows how many solders over there, and the bill sooner or later has to be paid for, or all that bitching about the national dealt was tongue in cheek. Who do you befriend over there that won't be the enemy the next day. Who ever you end up with as friend will be in control of the oil and it all starts all over again because non of them can be trusted to look after each other.

And if I can be so stupid as to ask why you are afraid to fight them at home.

I just look at it like any other problem like maybe a house with a bad foundation. You can keep patching the cracks, you can hate the not so friendly uncle that co-signed the mortgage who keeps pointing, you have a problem. you don't tear the house down before you have checked out the foundation.
It might be great to make a decisive decision and tear it down and rebuild but if you do not understand the problem you will build the same house and the foundation will fail and the crack is back.


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## frodo (Apr 13, 2016)

nealtw said:


> And if I can be so stupid as to ask why you are afraid to fight them at home.
> 
> 
> 
> ...























http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GKJJnO4ybCI/UJgUr6EKqEI/AAAAAAAAJWs/iUSxjvGfn54/s1600/gettysburg+Battle+dead+Ghost+Confederates.jpg[/IMG








(Deleted pic)



Because,  This is what war looks like,  I would rather have this carnage on their home field and not ours.


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## Chris (Apr 13, 2016)

Frodo, deleted the pics as they were close to the line.

I agree the last thing we want is war on our turf.

They are ruthless, they will blow up schools and homes with no regret.


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## nealtw (Apr 13, 2016)

If you cared about life you would spend time trying to figure out how to keep you toys safe
http://www.thetrace.org/2015/12/gun-violence-stats-2015/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/4486-american-soldiers-ha_b_5834592.html

Any excuse to hate someone, use the constitution , use religion, if you can't find a good excuse make one up. If you can't argue a point change the subject.

Have a nice day.


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## bud16415 (Apr 13, 2016)

Guns are almost as deadly as these things. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/08/dangers-of-texting-and-driving-statistics_n_7537710.html


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## frodo (Apr 13, 2016)

did you know that twice as nany people are killed with this  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





than this


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## nealtw (Apr 13, 2016)

Former National Rifle Association President David Keene said on Tuesday that hammers kill more people than assault weapons in the U.S.

&#8220;You know, last year and the year before according to FBI statistics, more people in this country were beaten to death than were killed by long arms&#8212;so called assault weapons&#8212;the government sought to ban,&#8221; he said during an interview with Fusion&#8217;s Jorge Ramos. &#8220;More people were killed with hammers than were killed with those guns.&#8221;

Let&#8217;s check those claims.

FBI crime data doesn&#8217;t specifically define &#8220;assault weapons.&#8221; But the number of murders in 2012 committed by beating (aka &#8220;personal weapons&#8221 was 678. That outpaced murders by rifles (322) and shotguns (303) combined. Although the categories are ill-defined, Keene may be right on the first point.

RELATED

WATCH: These Politicians are Enabling Mass Shootings

Keene&#8217;s claim about hammers, however, is wrong. And it&#8217;s not even close. In 2012, 8,855 people were murdered by firearms, according to the FBI&#8217;s numbers. By comparison, 518 people were murdered by blunt objects (defined not just as hammers, but clubs and other similar items too). Even if you just compare blunt objects to long arms, more people were killed with the latter than the former last year.

Most importantly, the vast majority of murders in America are committed with guns. Firearms made up nearly 70 percent of all homicides in 2012. More people were murdered with guns last year than by beating, blunt objects, knives, poison, and explosives combined.

Accidental deaths with firearms were also much more common than blunt-object deaths.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), 606 people were killed in accidents involving guns in 2010. That number jumped to 851 in 2011. There&#8217;s no data available on blunt objects in 2011. But the previous year? Only four people died in accidents with &#8220;nonpowered hand tools,&#8221; and one person was killed by accident with a blunt object.

The hammer-to-gun comparison has long been made by gun-rights advocates. The problem is, it doesn&#8217;t add up.

TWEET
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## frodo (Apr 13, 2016)

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

here are the REAL numbers.  all of them,  no cherry picks



clearly shows  more people killed by blunt objects and/or hands than rifles  "assault"


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## Chris (Apr 14, 2016)

I think more people are killed by crazy or mentally ill people than by anything else.


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## Chris (Apr 14, 2016)

nealtw said:


> If you cared about life you would spend time trying to figure out how to keep you toys safe
> http://www.thetrace.org/2015/12/gun-violence-stats-2015/
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/4486-american-soldiers-ha_b_5834592.html
> ...



I would not consider a gun a toy. A gun is a weapon or tool. In the wrong hands just like a knife, car, rope or anything else can be dangerous. But for the other 99.9% of us normal law biding citizens they mean a lot more. I am an avid hunter and feed much of the meat my family eats from animals I have hunted. I also have a fascination with guns and probably own more than you do socks, I have a couple of these so called Assault rifles (Which are no different than any of my hunting rifles except with a bunch of other junk strapped to them). I am not a crazy person and none of my guns will ever be used in a crime. I keep them all locked up where they are safe from crazy people. Guns are really not the problem and here in the US they will never be gone. If you take guns from all the law biding people only criminals will have them. Criminals don't buy them legally or care to. You can make the laws whatever you want and it would only hurt people like Frodo and I not the criminals since they will still have their connections. I am not going to go into how to reduce gun murders because I don't know, maybe have people raise better people. It all starts at home in childhood.


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## nealtw (Apr 14, 2016)

I have no problem with you having the right to have guns of any size and shape but if you watch frodo video at least a few of those would be toy unless some one is planning something ??
I said toys, just like I talk about boys with their toys when when they collect cars, boats or anything else they have no obvious need for.
Pretty much anyone here can buy a long gun or shot gun and if you want to own a pistol you have to jump thru hoops for weeks and then you need a permit to move it from your home to a shooting range. There are some that can get a carry permit for back country work.
My problem is those  that talk about there rights to own like some can take them away. Even I know what would have to happen before anyone could do that.
But when you talk about guns in some inner city, some how those are other guns like they fall out of the sky or something.

If there is nothing that can be done about guns in the inner cities, why would you worry about some bomb in Boston, it is just another city.
So who are the people buying guns and running them across state lines. They are obviously breaking the law or they are selling to people that are going to break the law.,

Or do more people need guns so they don't mess up all those hammers.

If you want to murder someone you will find a way but I think you would more than likely wouldn't hurt the kid walking home from school across the street.


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## frodo (Apr 14, 2016)

collectors,  not gun freaks.....do you see the joke n this table?


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## Chris (Apr 14, 2016)

You mean the glock?


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## Chris (Apr 14, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I have no problem with you having the right to have guns of any size and shape but if you watch frodo video at least a few of those would be toy unless some one is planning something ??
> I said toys, just like I talk about boys with their toys when when they collect cars, boats or anything else they have no obvious need for.
> Pretty much anyone here can buy a long gun or shot gun and if you want to own a pistol you have to jump thru hoops for weeks and then you need a permit to move it from your home to a shooting range. There are some that can get a carry permit for back country work.
> My problem is those  that talk about there rights to own like some can take them away. Even I know what would have to happen before anyone could do that.
> ...




We get people bringing guns across state and country lines. Most all of those inner city guns used in crimes are stolen.

I don't know about the rest of the country but in ca you must show proof of owning a safe to buy a gun. Then you need to use it. Problem with that is it is still hard to stop a good thief from getting them and selling them to criminals. I see in the news guys who drive trucks through gun shop walls just to steal guns.

I still think most of it can be changed at home. I was raised to not steal or be a criminal. It's really not hard if you are involved in your children's life. Problem with that is these criminals parents are no better than them.

Than there is the mental stability problem. That one I have no idea. Those people are going to snap and kill with or without a gun.

If you found a way to actually get rid of the millions of guns in the US without people fighting back violence may drop just a little but we will still have these killers who will still kill one way or another.


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## frodo (Apr 14, 2016)

Chris said:


> You mean the glock?




  Leadbetter put the ear protection on them to cover it up

after I asked him if he needed a bottle of water to fill his plastic water pistol up:rofl:


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## frodo (Apr 14, 2016)

it is called the black market. you can not stop it,  they have been trying for years

guns go from one town to another
drugs go from one town to another
porn goes from one town to another
money goes from one town to another
stolen property goes from one town to another
prostitutes goe from truck stop to truck stop on the way  from one town to another
boot leg  goods from china.

it is not just guns, and the ones using the guns in inner cities are criminals
we do not have a gun problem in our inner cities,
we have a black gang and mental health problem in our inner cities.

before you start hollering  "prejudice"   because i said BLACKS

look at who commits the highest percentage of crimes in the inner cities

start with he city of chicago,  it has the toughest gun laws in the USA,  but has the highest gun violence rate


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## nealtw (Apr 14, 2016)

My problem is the flaming about issues.
There has been postings about cakes, guns, flags, gay people, trans people, Muslims, black people, political correctness, min wage, banks, medical plans, bad neighborhoods and I have likely missed a few.

I have not noticed anybody from what might be the left position posting here, I am sure those people may be members here or at least visit here. Are they just more polite or fear full of how it will be received or are they working to change there life and would just as soon not get into it.

I have seen post that are just ugly about contractors and some of us get our back up right away and protect our own.
Others ask how we would feel about a contractor that did A,B or C and we all get in there and try to help figure out how to best deal with a problem.

We all have our feeling about what we see as a problem. So are we looking to solve a problem or just flame something.

Getting back to the cake, I don't know but I could see an in house memo going out to fill that order and report it up, that guy could now be on a no fly list. Just saying.


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## frodo (Apr 14, 2016)

WOW Neal,,,,you had to much coffee this morning.

you have not seen flaming,  all you have seen is difference in opinions.

which I have noticed the left does not take kindly tooo.

they usually get all bowed up and start yelling everyone is prejudice or is attacking others instead of sticking to the original subject.

I have seen flaming before that would make a sailor blush..LOL   

now.  take my last post..# 121    I see no flaming what so ever...maybe i just dont know what that term means.

MY dumbarse thought it meant personal attacks. 


I am lost here ,  do not understand the meaning. 

  """" Getting back to the cake, I don't know but I could see an in house memo going out to fill that order and report it up, that guy could now be on a no fly list. Just saying."""


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## Chris (Apr 14, 2016)

Neal is about as close as it gets to the left around here. I really do wish more would join in and talk about it. As Frodo says many just get their panties in a wad and take things personal but that happens on both sides. The problem with much of the left is that they are very young and not educated in really what is going on and just listen and agree with a person they idolize. (Please don't take that the wrong way) but the majority of schools, teachers, professors and the like push a very hard stance to the left and then you add in the poor and tell them you will give them something for free and they will join your side without even knowing what your side is.

Most people believe the right is only out there to make money and cut taxes for the wealthy. They are not. What I believe the right stands for is working hard, saving what you can and being conservative in every aspect of your life. That doesn't mean screw the guy who is not doing good but just the opposite, teach him and help him be better on his own. Goes back to the old saying. Give a man a fish he will eat for a day but teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.

Now I am not saying the left is bad or wrong in any way. Heck the left 50 years ago was pretty much what the right is now days. The left has a lot of good but the new liberal attitude is what pushes me away. 

By the way there are gays, guns, cakes, trans and weirdos on both sides.


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## frodo (Apr 14, 2016)

Chris said:


> Neal is about as close as it gets to the left around here. I really do wish more would join in and talk about it. As Frodo says many just get their panties in a wad and take things personal but that happens on both sides. The problem with much of the left is that they are very young and not educated in really what is going on and just listen and agree with a person they idolize. (Please don't take that the wrong way) but the majority of schools, teachers, professors and the like push a very hard stance to the left and then you add in the poor and tell them you will give them something for free and they will join your side without even knowing what your side is.
> 
> Most people believe the right is only out there to make money and cut taxes for the wealthy. They are not. What I believe the right stands for is working hard, saving what you can and being conservative in every aspect of your life. That doesn't mean screw the guy who is not doing good but just the opposite, teach him and help him be better on his own. Goes back to the old saying. Give a man a fish he will eat for a day but teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.
> 
> ...




I like german chocolate cake with  coconut pecan chocolate frosting

yummmmmyummmm  !!!!



and i tall glass of cold milk  not 2%  whole milk,,with extra fat!!!!


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## nealtw (Apr 14, 2016)

I don't care who votes for who. There is not much more on our TVs other than your election, we watch our own, but that is usually done in a couple months. The we can go back to being angry at government, no matter who won.
We live in countries with what we loosely call democracy.
Voting to elect a government is not just a right or a privilege, it is also a responsibility. Not just to go vote. A federal election is really tricky because we all have certain things we feel strongly about and will tend to vote for the guy that talks like he will give us that. Most of the time they don't talk about how they are going to do it, how that effect other people at the other end of the country or how they will negotiate to get somewhere in the middle. If you can't make everyone happy, at least talk honestly about it.

Your right to own a gun seems to be right up against how other people feel about their right to what ever they feel strongly apart.
Who is talking about what might be possible to stop your fear of loosing and the other side some win.

Pick a subject and I likely won't know anymore than I do about guns and if the other side doesn't come with opposing views to help you understand that what you want may not be good for the country, I will be happy to chime in.
Mostly I do like to know both sides of an issue because tomorrow I may be arguing on your side against some left winger, and believe me we have more than our share of those.

Then don't forget that you do not live in a democracy where the majority rules. You live in a republic, I haven't checked the language for the definition of the word but I think is something about protecting the minority from the majority.


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## Chris (Apr 14, 2016)

Our elections especially this one are a long drawn out ordeal. Really it doesn't matter who gets elected here either. It never gets better and we just go into more debt. Nobody ever cuts the old and just adds new ideas that they think will work. With so many people against each other and such a corrupt government nothing will ever change. We could probably can 2/3 of our government workforce and run it better but that will never happen.


Teach me about your government and how it works? Do you all feel about how we do about ours?

Why do they put ours on your tv? We don't get to watch anything from up north unless it is a Mayer doing crack or something.


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## frodo (Apr 14, 2016)

http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html


These two forms of government: Democracy and Republic, are not only dissimilar but antithetical, reflecting the sharp contrast between (a) The Majority Unlimited, in a Democracy, lacking any legal safeguard of the rights of The Individual and The Minority, and (b) The Majority Limited, in a Republic under a written Constitution safeguarding the rights of The Individual and The Minority; as we shall now see.



James Madison 
"As there is a degree of depravity in mankind which requires a certain degree of circumspection and distrust: So there are other qualities in human nature, which justify a certain portion of esteem and confidence. Republican government (that of a Republic) presupposes the existence of these qualities in a higher degree than any other form. Were the pictures which have been drawn by the political jealousy of some among us, faithful likenesses of the human character, the inference would be that there is not sufficient virtue among men for self government; and that nothing less than the chains of despotism can restrain them from destroying and devouring one another." (Emphasis added.)


maybe this will help you understand the difference,  ,  I am a republican,  my goal is to safe guard the constitution in its purest form


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## nealtw (Apr 14, 2016)

Chris said:


> Our elections especially this one are a long drawn out ordeal. Really it doesn't matter who gets elected here either. It never gets better and we just go into more debt. Nobody ever cuts the old and just adds new ideas that they think will work. With so many people against each other and such a corrupt government nothing will ever change. We could probably can 2/3 of our government workforce and run it better but that will never happen.
> 
> 
> Teach me about your government and how it works? Do you all feel about how we do about ours?
> ...



The whole world watches your elections, you are not some island in the Atlantic.
If you screw up an election you can screw everything up and as you get further away from finding solutions to problems the world takes notice.
I think it is easier to talk about your politics so we can better understand each other with out attacking each other.

Our system.:rofl:
The PM sit in the house much like your speaker.
The cabinet is pulled from the rank and file members by the PM and he can change them at his whim.
The PM appoints federal judges and senators for life, The senate has no power per say but can spend a lot of money.
If the government has a majority of members he is much like a dictator, they can push almost anything they want to.
If he pushes a bill and it doesn't pass the house he usually has to call an election.
And he decides when to call an election.
We have more parties so he can win without a majority but then he has to deal with other parties to stay in office.

The voters here are just like yours, they follow party line, fear and hate what they are told to fear and hate, talk past each other, same old stuff.


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## frodo (Apr 15, 2016)

:beer:....................


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## nealtw (Apr 15, 2016)

http://www.c-span.org/video/?401717-1/canadian-house-commons-question-time


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## havasu (Apr 15, 2016)

Isn't Trudeau the son of a long standing PM there? Are they considered the elite, similar to the Queen of England?


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## nealtw (Apr 15, 2016)

The old man got 15 years but that was 30 years ago.


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## frodo (Apr 15, 2016)

havasu said:


> Isn't Trudeau the son of a long standing PM there? Are they considered the elite, similar to the Queen of England?



that is why we need term limits here,  some of the goof balls forget they work for the people,  we do not work for them.

the forefathers never intended for carrier politicians,  matter of fact they were completely against it, and they were against a 2 party system. 

In fact, the Founding Fathers warned us about the threat from a two party system.

John Adams said:


There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.

George Washington agreed, saying in his farewell presidential speech:



The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty

Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind, (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight,) the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it. 

It serves always to distract the Public Councils, and enfeeble the Public Administration. It agitates the Community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which find a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.

There is an opinion, that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the Government, and serve to keep alive the spirit of Liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in Governments of a Monarchical cast, Patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in Governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency, it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose. And, there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be, by force of public opinion, to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume.


Thomas Jeffferson on term limits

http://eyler.freeservers.com/JeffPers/jefpco33.htm


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## frodo (Apr 16, 2016)

I is 4AM, I cant sleep, I have been up since 1AM  drinking coffee and petting the cat

I started thinking about the responses on here concerning the muslim refugees.

or rather we should let them into our country,

I understand talking about hundreds of thousands of people is a very daunting conversation.

So, I am breaking it down to a manageable equation .

Here Goes.

You are the USA family,  your family consists of a Dad,Mom, 2 daughters, 2 sons, 
You live in a neighborhood with other families,   MR,&Mrs Germany, the Englands, and many more.
The neighborhood over a couple of blocks ha had a gas leak and some of the families are being displaced.
The biggest concern is a Half way house that houses newly released pediphiles from the state prison.

your neighbor took in 2 of the occupants from the half way house, one of them tried to rape his daughter.
your wife is against letting them stay with your family.
but you think it is the thing to do,  help out your fellow man. they would not be a danger to the public, or they would not have left them out.  They call it vetting,  A old woman  asks if they promise to be good, when they say yes.  they are vetted
but.....AUTHORITIES   say the system is fool proof,  they are SOOOOO trustworthy,  you simply must believe them.
your neighbors daughter ?  she is a little tramp anyway in your opinion,  never did like her.

so.  here we are.
your wife says no do not let them in,  for the safety of your family
you want to let them in..you see no danger.

What is your responsibility to your family ?
   do you want Clear and convincing evidence or Preponderance of the evidence

before subjecting your family to danger

In my opinion,  It is a judgement call,  A type of call that if only effected YOU, could go either way.
BUT,  the safety of the members of your family,  make the decision clear.

they can not stay

now that your mind is made up,  the other neighbors are angry you are not taking in some of the residents.
never mind,  that their children are being assaulted and raped,,,their children want them OUT of their houses.

You are accused of not being charitable.  never mind that the USA family gives more money in aid to the needy in your neighborhood than ALL the rest of the neighbors COMBINED.
never mind that the residents of the halfway house have VERBALLY spoken out that they WILL rape and kill your children if given the chance
YOU STILL think it is better to let them stay than to protect your family.

Your family, has asked that you buy some tents, and put them up over at the park. and let them stay over their
you reject their advice  and forge ahead with moving them into your home.


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## slownsteady (Apr 16, 2016)

frodo said:


> I is 4AM, I cant sleep, I have been up since 1AM  drinking coffee and petting the cat
> 
> I started thinking about the responses on here concerning the muslim refugees.
> 
> ...


I suggest you get some sleep and finish this fairy tale tomorrow.


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## Chris (Apr 16, 2016)

I'm already here so lets close all the borders.....:hide:


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## nealtw (Apr 18, 2016)

http://theunboundedspirit.com/the-weapon-of-fear-how-they-use-fear-to-manipulate-you/


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## frodo (Apr 18, 2016)

nealtw said:


> http://theunboundedspirit.com/the-weapon-of-fear-how-they-use-fear-to-manipulate-you/




what are you referring to. 




boogy man under the bed?


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## nealtw (Apr 18, 2016)

You started you post about Muslims and some how turned that into rapists at a half way house.
So we all have fears of the halfway house and the choice would be to have a halfway house or just release them into the public. I think there would be a set of rules for the half way house if the need to evacuate happened.
But you turned that real fear into something about Muslims. Is that really fair?


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## frodo (Apr 18, 2016)

actually,,,the whole thing was about muslims.


i was putting into a context...or making the numbers smaller.  using a family unit to represent the USA

with the children being citizens.  i see that I must have not made it plane.

my whole point is this.

you have voiced your concerns that we should not/ or it would be unfair  to stop individuals of a religion to enter the us

I believe you mentioned a religion test. 

that is not what i was referring to..not a religion test.  but a country temporary ban.


ban ALL entrance into the USA from eastern europe and the immerants TEMPORALLY  

untill the radical extreme muslim war is over.

I really dont give a damn about hurt feelings or political correctness

this is a Ban to safe guard the lives of our citizens.

ARE YOU AWARE. the 24 month "vetting" has been shortened to 90 DAYS ?

are you aware that terroriests have been caught hiding among the refugees?

are you aware the terroriests have said they will come into this country to kill, hiding among the refugees?

my concerns are not false fear manipulation  .   The threat to MY country is real. 

extremest radical muslims have declared war on the USA


So, My plan of action ,  IF I could call the shots

BAN entrance into the USA..Temporarily
resettle the refugees in THERE country with humanitarian aid 
tent city type of thing.
CaLL upon the OTHER countries  {members of NATO}
to step up and offer personal to over see and protect the refugees

we do not HAVE to shoulder the load,,,,let them do it


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## Chris (Apr 18, 2016)

We are not allowed to hurt feelings anymore. Are you ready for a woman on the 20 dollar bill only for racial and sex equality. Its been all over the news here.


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## frodo (Apr 18, 2016)

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q759/41frodos/coins/P6160105.jpg


http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q759/41frodos/coins/scan0005-1.jpg


I dont like it...but change is change.  It signals me to save a couple hundred for later on.  like collecting coins 
...just waiting on a lgbt 3 dollar bill


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## nealtw (Apr 18, 2016)

I only questioned if Bud was suggesting a religious test, I don't think any country puts that info on passports but most of these people would likely have no passport anyway.

I think we can agree as there where no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq so at the very least the war was a mistake which many NATO countries took part with their own treasure and lost lives.
I believe some non NATO countries were there too.
Some of those countries right now are dealing with millions of refugees and helping with the camps in other countries.
The terror attacks we see in Europe for the most part are NATO countries and the attacks are carried out by their own citizens that have returned from the middle east.

I think the bigger problem might be those same European citizens can travel to the US and Canada with out a visa.


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## bud16415 (Apr 18, 2016)

I never suggested a religious test or anything of the sorts. I personally think we should have the same set of standards for anyone entering the country legally and the same reaction to anyone entering illegally. Try sneaking into Mexico and see what the reaction you get when found out. This country is the melting pot and if you want to come here then do it by the rules. Don&#8217;t single any country out have the same restriction for everyone. We have enough laws already we don&#8217;t need to make a different law for every bunch of people we let in. 

As to the rest of the world that is being run by these thugs that will murder their own people to keep control. As long as they are not crossing the lines and staying on their own turf do we just pretend its not happening? I would say a true liberal would feel the pain of these folks and want to help them out. That would involve going over and killing people and some of ours getting killed. There is no clean cut way to go about it. Was there WMD&#8217;s who knows if there were we waste so much time trying to be nice they ship them all next door. But if you think the mess needs cleaned up and you go in there for whatever reason and do the job. Why in the world wouldn&#8217;t you stay and keep what you gained. No you pull out leave a unstable place for people 10 times worse to take over all because you promised that as a way to getting elected. We have no continuity of a plan in this country any more.  

The world would be a better place I guess if we wouldn&#8217;t have tried to help. Just let the dictator in power rape and murder anyone he felt like those few people shouldn&#8217;t count anyway. I know it was all about oil and making money for the vice presidents ex company.


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## nealtw (Apr 18, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> I never suggested a religious test or anything of the sorts. I personally think we should have the same set of standards for anyone entering the country legally and the same reaction to anyone entering illegally. Try sneaking into Mexico and see what the reaction you get when found out. This country is the melting pot and if you want to come here then do it by the rules. Dont single any country out have the same restriction for everyone. We have enough laws already we dont need to make a different law for every bunch of people we let in.
> 
> As to the rest of the world that is being run by these thugs that will murder their own people to keep control. As long as they are not crossing the lines and staying on their own turf do we just pretend its not happening? I would say a true liberal would feel the pain of these folks and want to help them out. That would involve going over and killing people and some of ours getting killed. There is no clean cut way to go about it. Was there WMDs who knows if there were we waste so much time trying to be nice they ship them all next door. But if you think the mess needs cleaned up and you go in there for whatever reason and do the job. Why in the world wouldnt you stay and keep what you gained. No you pull out leave a unstable place for people 10 times worse to take over all because you promised that as a way to getting elected. We have no continuity of a plan in this country any more.
> 
> The world would be a better place I guess if we wouldnt have tried to help. Just let the dictator in power rape and murder anyone he felt like those few people shouldnt count anyway. I know it was all about oil and making money for the vice presidents ex company.


I never suggested you said religious test , I merely asked if that is what you had meant, perhaps if you had answered that question there would be no confusion.
Frodo misunderstood my question to mean I had an opinion one way or another.

As far as keeping what is gained, would you have left your people there, subject to local laws and justice, I believe that was the question.


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## slownsteady (Apr 18, 2016)

A couple of random notes:

I don't like that the refugees from Syria are moving away from the fighting and somehow we are expected to go there and fight for them. What if we just cordoned off a corner of the country, protected it's "new" border, trained an army from the refugees who could fight. Then they could lead the charge to take back back their own land.

Any religious test is doomed to fail, because any enemy that wanted entrance could just study the part and act his way over the border.

America has not had much success in fighting insurgent groups, but has a proven record of kicking the *** of any country/government that it declares war on. Let's wait until the caliphate is formed and then bring hell down on the seat of it's power.

Problem with all of these? Sure. People suffer and die while waiting for these things to happen. I still have a hard time justifying that.


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## frodo (Apr 19, 2016)

fencing off a section for the refugees in their land is  good idea..

let them fight their own battles,  

I am still in favor of a temp ban of all peoples from that corner of the world.


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## frodo (Apr 19, 2016)

nealtw said:


> So now you are going to have a religious test at the boarder.
> You will loose, who knows how many solders over there, and the bill sooner or later has to be paid for, or all that bitching about the national dealt was tongue in cheek. Who do you befriend over there that won't be the enemy the next day. Who ever you end up with as friend will be in control of the oil and it all starts all over again because non of them can be trusted to look after each other.
> 
> And if I can be so stupid as to ask why you are afraid to fight them at home.
> ...



i believe this is where i got the idea you mentioned a religious test


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## frodo (Apr 19, 2016)

Neal,  You have some very valid points.  I dont agree with them. cause i'm an ***,    but they are valid points.


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## nealtw (Apr 19, 2016)

So I did word that wrong about what Bud had said.
I thought 41 was wrong to leave Iraq in place after the first war, but now I understand what he was doing , I think.
I think the biggest problems in the world is when people are fenced in with what ever fence type I can imagine, wire, fear, hate.
I do not have answers but my fear is what happens after, we prop up a dictator or leave a country in a mess. I think most of what I hear is like duct tape on a broken pipe.

Did people really have a plan for Iraq or Libya.


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## bud16415 (Apr 19, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Did people really have a plan for Iraq or Libya.



 You should never go to war without a plan and a goal. Yes they had a plan at least the generals had a plan for Iraq. Fighting might end but that doesnt mean a country is going to do what we did in America. We didnt kill and defeat the enemy we chased them across a line to sit us out and the second we pull back out they come. Wars are won when you break the will of the people you are fighting to fight back and in that definition of war we never did that. 

Now did we have a plan for Libya, past killing a dictator, I would first say we didnt but then again a plan doesnt have to be for victory and if what happened was the result of a plan then maybe we did have a plan and its just not one I endorse. If the plan was to encourage the caliphate to form and grow well then our plan is working out perfect.


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