# Adding a new 15A circuit to this panel



## 1HandyWoman (Jul 16, 2020)

Hi everyone,

I need to add a new 15A circuit breaker to this breaker box and there seems to be two spots left in the panel.  See pic.  The question I have is...

even though there seems to be two spots left (punch outs there were already punched out) at the bottom of this panel, the bar behind the punch outs is running horizontally and not vertically.  

From my recollection of many years ago when I added a new circuit breaker to a panel, the breakers latched onto that bar to make the contact with the incoming power.  Maybe my recollection is erroneous (hey it was many years ago and my memory aint what it used to be).

So bottom line, do you think I can add a new circuit breaker to this panel?


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## afjes_2016 (Jul 16, 2020)

It is difficult to make out in any detail from the picture you have provided. Is it possible to take a clear picture.

My eyes are not so good at my age of 64 so maybe someone with better eyes can help you more but from what I can tell that seems to be a Seimens panel (going by the breakers only).

What is your skill level? If need be are you comfortable with removing the front cover of the panel? Is there a label somewhere on the front cover giving the model/brand of the panel?


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## 1HandyWoman (Jul 16, 2020)

Sorry about the picture quality it was taken with an old digital camera (dont have a smart phone, will never have a smart phone).

I am fairly handy and COULD take the cover off but I installed a huge shelving unit that covers the screws on the left hand side so taking off the cover is going to take some time and effort (yes I know I will have to take it off to add the circuit).

I looked on the panel and I cannot take a picture... I focus and when I hit the button to take a pic, it unfocuses out of focus... damn. I will read the instructions on the damn camera again and see if I can get a nonfuzzy pic.  But yes it is a seimens box, type I.


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## Snoonyb (Jul 16, 2020)

There won't be a horizontal buss bar, so when you remove the shelving and remove the cover you should find the neutrals connected there. You also have an example, on the right of the panel, of the type of breaker that can be substituted in place of the full sized breaker/s on the left, the choice is there for you.


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## 1HandyWoman (Jul 16, 2020)

OK I finally got a decent pic of the information on the box (top pic).

I also looked closer at the bar running horizontally across the two punchouts and I think I found my answer.... NO.  

It does not look like a breaker could go into either of these punchouts because that bar looks like it is in the way of a breaker seating (hard to see but second pic).  The horizontal bar looks like a jumper of something to connect the two side vertical bars that the breakers latch onto.


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## 1HandyWoman (Jul 16, 2020)

Snoonyb said:


> There won't be a horizontal buss bar, so when you remove the shelving and remove the cover you should find the neutrals connected there. You also have an example, on the right of the panel, of the type of breaker that can be substituted in place of the full sized breaker/s on the left, the choice is there for you.



But the full sized breakers on the left are 20A circuits and the half sized breakers on the right are 15A breakers.   Also on the right although they look like half size are "fused" together so two 15A breakers are fused to make the same size as the one 20A one.  So I dont think that is an option on this type of box but that is why I am asking the experts here.


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## Snoonyb (Jul 16, 2020)

Buss bars are not connected by a jumper.

Common residential is 240V single phase, IE. two 120V- 180 degrees out of phase.

Those breakers are made that way and each is a switch that supplies 120V, 15A to a conductor, so there are two separate supplies from the same breaker, from the same buss bar.

I could go into the weeds with this, which would probably be even more confusing.

Simply put, you could just add either a single breaker, as those on the left, or replace one with the same style that is on the right, which would be feed from that buss bar.


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## 1HandyWoman (Jul 16, 2020)

Snoonyb said:


> Buss bars are not connected by a jumper.



Ok well I do not know the lingo of breaker boxes so my bad.

What it is or what it does I do not know but it is a bar that is connected to both sides of the box that has "buss bars" or whatever those bars are that run vertically and which the breakers are latched onto.

So the horizontally running bar is in the way of putting another breaker in the punch out IT SEEMS to me.

So is there anything else I can do to install a new 15A circuit?  Anything? or am I fked?


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## 1HandyWoman (Jul 16, 2020)

OK I finally got the cover off the box.  Here is what it looks like inside.  Again not the clearest pic but the best I could do with the camera I have.

I can now see that the bar running horizontally at the bottom (blocking the two punch outs) is definetely a jumper tying the neutrals together as the pic shows the neutral coming in the house is only connected at the top right, so the "jumper" is needed.

Ok so now I think it is certain I cannot add a new circuit breaker in this box.  Is there any alternative to doing that without piggybacking the new circuit into another existing circuit?


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## 1HandyWoman (Jul 16, 2020)

Snoonyb said:


> Buss bars are not connected by a jumper.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



OK I THINK I follow what you are saying.

So then my followup question would be (if I am at all understanding what you said) ....

can I replace one of the 20A breakers on the left side with a smaller (half sized) 20A breaker (to supply the existing 20A circuit) and a new half sized 15A breaker for the new 15A circuit????


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## geochurchi (Jul 16, 2020)

Correct, remove 1 full size breaker from the left and install 15/20 breaker. number for it should be on the panel cover.
Geo


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## WyrTwister (Jul 17, 2020)

Is there a reason you wish to install a 15 amp circuit , in stead of a 20 amp circuit .

     Were it me , I would run a 12/2 W/ground Romex for the circuit , remove one of the 20 amp circuit breakers and install a 20/20 twin circuit breaker in its place  .  Terminate the origional wire to one of the terminals on the new circuit breaker .  Terminate the black wire of the new Romex on the other terminal of the new twin circuit breaker .  Terminate the new white wire to the neutral bar and the new bare ground to the ground bar .

God bless
Wyr


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 17, 2020)

In some boxes, the mini breakers are only allowed in certain positions. 

The info panel on the door might indicate where they are allowed. 

And yes, why not run 20 amp breakers and 12 ga wire?
Very small cost increase and much more future proofed. 
More juice is more better. 

Just remember, when you turn off the main breaker, there is still deadly power in the box. 
The exposed ends and connections of the two line wires are always hot. 
And there can be a small nick anywhere in their insulation that can kill you if you touch exposed wire. 

Wear gym shoes, and put a piece of carpet or wood under you, use insulated tools, don’t handle any wires by hand. 
Never touch the box while wiring with the other hand. 

Get a better camera, they are so cheap now, even on eBay, Nextdoor local app, etc. 
Good old ones for $20.00.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 17, 2020)

You can also get an old used smartphone with a decent camera for $20.00 or so. 
You can offload the pics with a usb cable, or in some a mini SD card can pop out and plug into your computer, sometimes you need a card adapter to hold the mini card. 

Just to use it for the camera, and no need for cell service. 

Wrap it in foil if you are paranoid. 
You can get Faraday cage phone covers also, to block all wavelengths. 

You can still dial 911 even with no paid phone plan, very handy in emergency or to carry in your car.


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## tomtheelder2020 (Jul 17, 2020)

If most slots already filled, is there a concern about the new breaker exceeding the total amp capacity of the box? Thinking about this, I looked at my own box and found it is rated for 200 amps, has 20 slots for breakers, and has 9 breakers totaling 310 amps (including [email protected] amps and [email protected] amps). It has had that configuration for something like 20 years. Should I be on the phone with an electrician?


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 17, 2020)

If is very unlikely that 2/3 of your breakers will be loaded at max capacity all at once. 

My former house got by on 100 amps with eight people living there, including a/c and four girls with hair dryers. 
With electric range, and double wall oven. 
Yes, the lights dimmed a little when the a/c was starting up. 

One of your big dual breakers is likely your a/c, the other is pbly your oven, stove, range, or clothes dryer. 

If you have natural gas, you can switch a big draw appliance to that, to remove some load from the breaker box.


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## Johnboy555 (Jul 17, 2020)

tomtheelder2020 said:


> If most slots already filled, is there a concern about the new breaker exceeding the total amp capacity of the box? Thinking about this, I looked at my own box and found it is rated for 200 amps, has 20 slots for breakers, and has 9 breakers totaling 310 amps (including [email protected] amps and [email protected] amps). It has had that configuration for something like 20 years. Should I be on the phone with an electrician?


After seeing the picture of the box I seem to remember (from 100 years ago) that there was something in the building codes about "total amps of breakers" allowed in the box. If I remember correctly, that problem could be addressed by adding a "side box".  You need to speak with a full licensed electrician,  or city building inspector.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 17, 2020)

Adding a sub panel to avoid over-filling the main box would not reduce the load on the home electrical system’s capacity. 

But it might avoid a code violation for too many breakers in a box, or for using mini breakers if not allowed, or too many of them or in the wrong slots.


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## tomtheelder2020 (Jul 17, 2020)

Johnboy and Jeff, the two 50 amp breakers feed the 100-amp fuse box that was original to the 1951 house and is now a sub-panel.  The two 40-amp breakers feed the AC - and the reason the new panel was installed 30 years ago.
Jeff, thanks for pointing out that what matters is actual load, not possible load (though City inspector might think differently). My 100-amp fuse panel will never again come close to capacity as the garage and major kitchen appliances are now on new circuits I installed, and house lights are all now compact fluorescent and LED,  Thanks for putting my mind at ease.
1HandyWoman, however, might not be so lucky and should check what her actual loads might be before adding a new circuit.


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## WyrTwister (Jul 17, 2020)

If you are worried about the total connected load , use a clamp on amp meter and leasure the load , on both phases / hots , coming into the panel .  If you are qualified to do that , safely .

God bless
Wyr


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## tomtheelder2020 (Jul 17, 2020)

Wyr, I know that can be done safely, and have seen videos of it being done, but since I don't know ways it might be done unsafely - that means I can't do it safely. If I get more worried than I am now I will hire a pro. Thanks.


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## WyrTwister (Jul 17, 2020)

Very wise .

     I have a good 40 years in the electrical trade ( pretty much retired now ) .  Would be a non issue to me , but I figured you might be uneasy doing it your self .  Therefore my mention of the need for caution .

     Something you could do , relatively safely .  Use a non contact infrared temperature gun .  Check the temperature of the incoming power , out going power , terminations and circuit breakers .  If it is not hot , it is not overloaded .  A good preventative maintenance procedure , to .









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God bless
Wyr


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## afjes_2016 (Jul 18, 2020)

tomtheelder2020 said:


> If most slots already filled, is there a concern about the new breaker exceeding the total amp capacity of the box? Thinking about this, I looked at my own box and found it is rated for 200 amps, has 20 slots for breakers, and has 9 breakers totaling 310 amps (including [email protected] amps and [email protected] amps). It has had that configuration for something like 20 years. Should I be on the phone with an electrician?



Adding up the total of the breakers is not the way to determine of your service is overloaded.
The only true way to do this is by doing a "Load Calculation" - there are many on the Internet to use.
Adding up the total breakers is not the way to do it because it is very highly unlikely that all breakers will be pulling full power at one time.


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## 1HandyWoman (Jul 19, 2020)

Wonderful discussion on total loads.  Thank you all very much for your thoughts.  Not something that I was even considering.

However, I am not worried at all about total loads and here is why...

One, there is a 60A circuit that is wired for an electric laundry dryer and I have a gas dryer, also I do not have a microwave over in my house, and my hot water is also gas, so even if every elec appliance in the house was running at one time, I still think I would be under the total load.  Two, my house is 2400 sq feet, three story, 4 bedrooms and I live alone (lol).  So there is no possibility whatsoever that I would EVER use anywhere near the total load by myself.

I am also not worried about codes or code inspectors and here's why...

I am not getting any permits for this work I plan to do so no one ever needs to know the work was done and here's why.  I am not adding a typical new circuit where I am running wires to a new garage or new addition or anything like that.  What I AM adding is a new "Satic Whole House Electicity Managment System" (see attached pic).  I plan to remove and take with me this unit if/when I ever sell this house so I can return the breaker panel box back to its present configuration before any nosey "inspector" ever sees the addition of the new breaker.

So I THINK I do not have any worries.

But I do have one new question.  There is free space on the neutral bar for adding another wire but there is NOT any room on the ground bar to add another ground.  So question can I double up the ground wire with another ground?  Again I am not worried about "code" I am only worried about safety of doing that.


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## tomtheelder2020 (Jul 19, 2020)

Wyr and afjes, thanks for the ideas - I will look into both.

1Handy, my apologies for interfering in your thread. If I decide to post further I will start my own thread.


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## WyrTwister (Jul 19, 2020)

Looking at the file / photo , you need to connect to 2 hots ( on opposite phases ) , a neutral and an earth ground .

     Not per code , but I would , personally put 2 grounds under one screw terminal , on the ground bar and be done with it .

     If you have a 2 pole 60 amp circuit breaker that is not being used , I would remove and save it .  

     Remove the wires from the old circuit breaker ant wire nut / " cap " them .  Remove the corresponding earth ground from the ground bar and install the new ground wire there .

     Then install a 2 pole 15 o 20 amp circuit breaker to feed the new " filter " .  Terminate the hots from the " filter " at the new circuit breaker ( with the CB in the off position ) .

God bless
Wyr


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 19, 2020)

I see two neutrals or grounds under one screw all the time. 

It might even be allowed by code?

Not as bad as a double tap right on a breaker screw.


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## 1HandyWoman (Jul 19, 2020)

WyrTwister said:


> Looking at the file / photo , you need to connect to 2 hots ( on opposite phases ) , a neutral and an earth ground .
> 
> Not per code , but I would , personally put 2 grounds under one screw terminal , on the ground bar and be done with it .
> 
> ...



Wyr you the man!  Great Idea.  Will do.

I also read the entire panel wiring instructions that are glued to the inside of the panel box door and it says that I can put two or even three grounds to one screw if the wire sizes are in the correct range 14-10 AWG.  I don't know the size of the wires on the "filter" but I am quessing probably 14.  Anyhow I think I now have the solution I need.  Thanks everyone for your thoughts and ideas.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 19, 2020)

Stay safe!


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## WyrTwister (Jul 20, 2020)

They say even a blind hog finds an acorn every once in a while .    

     I have over 40 years in the trade .

God bless
Wyr


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## 1HandyWoman (Jul 26, 2020)

Ok Update.  I installed the new filter and new circuit breaker yesterday.  And I did NOT electrocute myself .

I took the cover off the filter I installed and saw that a blue light was on (tells me the unit is on).

But, and this really confounds me, I tested all my circuits in the house and found the readings (I have a special meter I just bought for these measurements) have NOT changed one bit.  In other words, the filter is NOT doing what it is supposed to do (reducing EMFs).  I have a call into the tech support for the company that makes the filter but they are not open on the weekends.

So I searched their online FAQ page and found this listed under "why have my reading not changed"  ...

"A common problem has been that the Neutral wire from the filter was installed on the Ground bar rather than the Neutral bar in the distribution panel".

So I made sure that I connected the neutral to the neutral bar,  Check.

BUT I have had this question since I posted this thread.  There is a bar running across the bottom row of breakers that connects the ground bar (on right of panel looking at pic) to the neutral bar (on left side of panel looking at pic).  The ground bar is connected ONLY to the aluminum wire that comes out of the bottom of box and connected to big screw on top right of breakers.  This aluminum wire looks like it was wrapped around the two hot service wires coming in the house.

I do NOT see any other ground wire going to ground.  And it certainly seems that the ground and neutral are connected to the same bar (because they are physically connected).

IS IT POSSIBLE that my house is not grounded?  Or if it is grounded I don't have a neutral pathway?

I am lost here.


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## afjes_2016 (Jul 26, 2020)

> The horizontal bar looks like a jumper of something to connect the two side vertical bars that the breakers latch onto.



1HandyWomen the pictures you have provided so far are difficult to make out so I will go with what I see from the pictures.



> So I searched their online FAQ page and found this listed under "why have my reading not changed"  ...
> 
> "A common problem has been that the Neutral wire from the filter was installed on the Ground bar rather than the Neutral bar in the distribution panel".



I am going to have to assume that this is your main panel (since I can not see details of the wires in the panel). I quickly read thru all the posts for this thread to refresh my memory and again picture quality is poor.

From what I can see that "horizontal bar" is a connector for the two vertical bars in your panel. If this is your "main panel" then of course your neutrals and grounds are bonded together which is code. By the blurry picture is seems that one vertical bar has ground wires and one side has neutral wires - this means that neutral and ground is bonded as should be in a main panel.

So placing the neutral wire on the ground bar instead of the neutral bar in your case has no affect as they are bonded togther. Just because you placed the wire on the right side does not mean you placed it on an isolated neutral bar since once again the two vertical bars are bonded together.


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## 1HandyWoman (Jul 26, 2020)

That last pic is pretty darn clear to me, or maybe I am just blind, IDK.

Yes this is my main panel (and my only panel).

So bonding neutral and ground is code?  Then why have two "paths"?

Yes the horizontal bar is a connector that is what throws me off as I though neutral and ground were "supposed" to be different paths.


Your conclusion does not help me at all.  Afjes said...

"So placing the neutral wire on the ground bar instead of the neutral bar in your case has no affect as they are bonded togther. Just because you placed the wire on the right side does not mean you placed it on an isolated neutral bar since once again the two vertical bars are bonded together."

This it my problem!  I don't seem to have a different path for neutral from the ground path.  This is why (I think) my filter is not working.  IF this is code (it seems very odd to me but I am not an electrician so IDK) then how could putting the neutral on the ground bar ever cause any problems with the filter  (as stated by the manufacturer) ?


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## WyrTwister (Jul 26, 2020)

OK , I am going to talk about some of the code issues .  Not so much as to explain why .  This does not cover all cases , but I am attempting to cover what the OP is most likely seeing / working with .

     For many / most residential customers , if you have an overhead service , the utility meter is on the outside of the house .  Often on the exterior wall .  I understand it is possible for the meter to be inside the house ( basement , maybe ) but it is not done that in my area .

      If you have an underground service , the utility meter is normally on the outside of the house .  Often in the alley , on a utility pedestal or a wooden pole .

     The first disconnecting means / overload device down stream of the meter is the " main " / service entrance .  This can be at / inside the " house panel " , or separate from the house panel .  Or the house panel may be at some distance & separate from the " main " service entrance .

     The service entrance conductors from the meter to the " main " / service entrance , consists of a neutral and 2 " hots " for the typical residential service .

     If the " main " / is inside the " house panel " , the house panel is the service entrance .  Code allows / requires , in this instance , the neutral bar and the earth ground bar to be electrically connected / bonded .   And this is where the grounding electrode conductor normally  terminates .  ( The grounding electrode conductor may , by code , be terminated at the meter neutral bar , but less commonly  . )

     At that panel and only at that panel . 

    Any sub-panel must have separate neutrals and earth ground conductors feeding it and terminated at separate neutral bars and earth ground bars .   And the 2 " hots " .

     If the " house panel " is separate from the " main "  ( for instance on the outside of the house and the house panel is at a distance , say the garage ) 2 hots , a neutral and an earth ground conductors must be run between the two .  And the neutral bar and earth ground bar must be separate .   Because , per code , the house panel is a sub panel .

     Neutral conductors are terminated at the neutral bar and earth grounds and branch circuit equipment grounds are terminated at the earth ground bar .

     Now , as to what I can see from your photo .

     You have a circuit beaker , at which the " hot " service entrance conductors terminate .  If there is no " main " outside / separate from this house panel , then that circuit breaker is the " main " and the house panel is the service entrance .   And what I can see of your neutral and earth ground bars are correct / legal .

     I can not see a grounding electrode conductor , so I can not address that issue .

     If the main is separate / at a distance from the house panel , then the house panel is a sub panel and the bar at the bottom of the house panel should not be there , connecting the neutral bar and the earth ground bar .  And your house panel is not installed legally / per code / correctly .

     Now , is your " filter " working correctly .  I do not know , neither do I possess meters / instruments to verify .

     If my answers are to long winded or confusing , then you should not question what information you are given by qualified persons .

     There is a reason a journeyman electrician must have on the job work experience and pass an exam .  In my case , I had in excess of 4 years of On the Job Training and of class room training .

God bless
Wyr


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 26, 2020)

Your picture is not too bad, but not crisp and clear as would be preferred for a nice clear blown up inspection.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 26, 2020)

Some panels such as sub panels have the neutral bars “floating”, as in not bonded to the metal cabinet with a screw, or tied in as yours is. 

Main panels might not have the jumper, but electrically they act as the same point of attachment. 

So this whole device seems kind of like quackery to me, but hopefully it really works and you will get it working with help from tech support.


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## WyrTwister (Jul 26, 2020)

I could not see well enough to determine if the panel in the photo had a bonding screw installed , or not .

     If said panel is the panel with the " main " , the neutral  bar and the earth ground bare are required to be bonded and the earth ground also is always bonded to the panel enclosure ( assuming said enclosure is metallic ) .

God bless
Wyr


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## 1HandyWoman (Jul 27, 2020)

Wyr,

Yes the panel has a bonding screw and it is very difficult to see in person so a pic would be difficult to see it even if I had a better quality pic.

Yes the enclosure is metallic.

So bottom line I guess is that this configuration is correct, and code, and may or may not be the cause of the filter not working.  

Jeff Handy, Yes I was sceptical also and therefore it took me a couple years of research until I felt that it was NOT quackery.  But this situation now of the readings not changing is not helping my initial gut reaction at all.  We will see.


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## dsteinhorn (Jul 27, 2020)

I do not see a large gauge grounding wire in the picture and I "assume" that the ground rod is outside at the meter, which we cannot see.  The small sound wires entering at the bottom would not be sufficient by code (I believe requires a 4 AWG ground minimum) to handle a major current flow.  

Also, I am not a licensed electrician but have been reviewing the code in preparation for putting a sub panel in my garage.  I do not think that the additional wires running through the large coupling on the bottom with the service entrance cables is correct.  The breaker'ed circuits should not be in the same conduit or entrance to the panel as the service entrance wires.


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## 1HandyWoman (Jul 27, 2020)

dsteinhorn said:


> I do not see a large gauge grounding wire in the picture and I "assume" that the ground rod is outside at the meter, which we cannot see.  The small sound wires entering at the bottom would not be sufficient by code (I believe requires a 4 AWG ground minimum) to handle a major current flow.
> 
> Also, I am not a licensed electrician but have been reviewing the code in preparation for putting a sub panel in my garage.  I do not think that the additional wires running through the large coupling on the bottom with the service entrance cables is correct.  The breaker'ed circuits should not be in the same conduit or entrance to the panel as the service entrance wires.



You do not see any such grounding wire because as I stated earlier THERE IS NO GROUNDING WIRE!  This house is NOT grounded.

But Wyr says that it is code to bond the neutrals to the grounds and both the neutral wires and the ground wires are all connected to the aluminum wire (shown in the pic on top right side of box).  That large aluminum wire looks like it is wrapped around the two hot wires coming in from the utility elec meter (which is right behind this panel on outside of house).

This is why I have been so confused (and still am) as the house does NOT seem to be grounded at all and I can hardly beleive that is code!


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## dsteinhorn (Jul 27, 2020)

There may be a grounding wire and grounding rod (or tied into rebar when foundation was laid) at the meter outside.  That was my point.  The large aluminum conductor is the common Neutral conductor


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## 1HandyWoman (Jul 27, 2020)

dsteinhorn said:


> There may be a grounding wire and grounding rod (or tied into rebar when foundation was laid) at the meter outside.  That was my point.  The large aluminum conductor is the common Neutral conductor



There can NOT be a grounding wire or rod outside, it is impossible.  If there were, since the neutrals and grounds are both bonded together in the panel box and therefore leave the panel box bonded together there could be no way to ever separated those paths on the outside?  Impossible.  

So either the neutrals and grounds are both grounded outside (I have read that many years ago all neutrals were "sent back" to the elec utility through the ground but I dont think that happens any longer (but hey what do I know.... not much) OR they both travel back on the neutral wire (grounds and neutrals).

Either way it seems very strange and "not right" but heck what do I know (not much it seems).


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## slownsteady (Jul 27, 2020)

It seems, at this point, that on-line advice can not help answer questions that a qualified electrician should answer on-site. The concerns here should be addressed with a licensed electrician.


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## 1HandyWoman (Jul 27, 2020)

slownsteady said:


> It seems, at this point, that on-line advice can not help answer questions that a qualified electrician should answer on-site. The concerns here should be addressed with a licensed electrician.



Well I never knew this site to be highly censored but I guess that is just the way things go now a days.


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## slownsteady (Jul 27, 2020)

So the question brewing in my head: 

1HW...no microwave, no smartphone, EMF filter.......What's up??


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## slownsteady (Jul 27, 2020)

1HandyWoman said:


> Well I never knew this site to be highly censored but I guess that is just the way things go now a days.


Not any kind of censor. Just my best advice.

Nothing was removed and the conversation can continue.


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## 1HandyWoman (Jul 27, 2020)

slownsteady said:


> So the question brewing in my head:
> 
> 1HW...no microwave, no smartphone, EMF filter.......What's up??



Whats up?  EMFs harm everyBODY.  I am maybe more sensitive than you are.  I am willing to do something to reduce the harm.  That is why I have no smartphone, no microwave, no wifi, etc.  Who do you think would spend money for an emf filter but one who knew they were being harmed by them?


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## Eddie_T (Jul 28, 2020)

1HandyWoman said:


> There can NOT be a grounding wire or rod outside, it is impossible.  If there were, since the neutrals and grounds are both bonded together in the panel box and therefore leave the panel box bonded together there could be no way to ever separated those paths on the outside?  Impossible.
> 
> So either the neutrals and grounds are both grounded outside (I have read that many years ago all neutrals were "sent back" to the elec utility through the ground but I dont think that happens any longer (but hey what do I know.... not much) OR they both travel back on the neutral wire (grounds and neutrals).
> 
> Either way it seems very strange and "not right" but heck what do I know (not much it seems).


The neutral doesn't go back any farther than the center tap of the transformer and grounding is just for safety. Nothing in the house requires a ground to operate except for ground fault devices. My panel with bonded neutral and ground is grounded to a copper water pipe but the neutral at the meter box outside is grounded to a ground rod. The neutral current flows to the transformer and not into the ground (unless there is a ground fault).


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## 1HandyWoman (Jul 28, 2020)

Eddie_T said:


> The neutral doesn't go back any farther than the center tap of the transformer and grounding is just for safety.



Ok but if they are both bonded together than they can not go to separate places.

Anyhow, it doesn't really matter (other than I have learned a thing or two) because I finally talked to the tech support of the filter manufacturer and he assured me that YES it is because the neutral and ground are bonded is why my filter is not working.  He said they use the neutral to return the electricity after it has been "cleaned" back into the house. 

Wow does that make any sence especially after being told by Eddie_T that the neutral only goes back to the transformer????

So now I am TOTALLY confused.  But tech support is going to take my filter back and give me a special filter that they manufacture for panel configurations like mine (neutral and ground bonded).

So I think I got a "fix" even though I am totally confused as to how any of this mysterious electricity works.

Thanks everybody for your thougtful input and trying your darndest to edumacate me


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## Eddie_T (Jul 28, 2020)

The emf filter people may be pulling your leg as all main panels in the US have neutrals bonded to ground if they meet code.

Here's a link that may help you;


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## 1HandyWoman (Jul 28, 2020)

Eddie_T said:


> The emf filter people may be pulling your leg as all main panels in the US have neutrals bonded to ground if they meet code.
> 
> Here's a link that may help you;





Excellent explaination and was my basic understanding of how residential elec services worked (except I never knew ground and neutral could /would be bonded together).  

Now is this filter company lying to me?  IDK but they have been in business for many years and have a good reputation so, why lie?  If they sold an expensive peice of equipment that did not work at all, they would have gone out of business years ago and would have been exposed as snake oil salesmen.  So I can not explain it, or their responce to me.

I guess I will just return the filter to them and "hope" for the best.


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## Eddie_T (Jul 29, 2020)

> He said they use the neutral to return the electricity after it has been "cleaned" back into the house.


 This statement bothers me. If the emf filter people don't understand basic electricity how can they clean it? The only current that flows in branch circuit neutrals is from the devices plugged into the receptacles. If the emf filter causes current flow it is merely from the electricity it consumes as with all other devices. Electricity is not recirculated through house wiring, bonding at the panel has no effect on neutral currents. I would like to see a schematic of an emf filter, I am suspecting they are snake oil.


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## afjes_2016 (Jul 29, 2020)

.

Eddie_T
Honestly I quite felt the same way to a degree but felt best to keep my mouth shut.

1HandyWoman
To put it simply think of the flow of electricity going thru your house like the plumbing in your house.
Current comes in from the utility pole on the hot and returns on the neutral out to the utility pole.
Compare it to water coming into your house in the water line and going back out in your sewer line.

"Me Thinks" this company makes money on the worries of persons concerned with EMF.
I can understand that to a degree. My 12 year old cousin many years back ended up with "_Hodgkin's lymphoma_" his parents (my aunt and uncle) where totally convinced that it was because they lived too close to utility high voltage power-lines going by their house.

Electrons have a mind of their own only to a certain degree  

.


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## slownsteady (Jul 31, 2020)

The part that puzzles me is that the device is only on one circuit (branch). How does that filter electricity on the other branches? Wouldn't it need to be upstream of the main breaker?


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## 1HandyWoman (Aug 1, 2020)

afjes_2016 said:


> To put it simply think of the flow of electricity going thru your house like the plumbing in your house.
> Current comes in from the utility pole on the hot and returns on the neutral out to the utility pole.
> Compare it to water coming into your house in the water line and going back out in your sewer line.



Yes Afjes I agree and understand what you are saying.  With your analogy one can see that if the electricity, after being "cleaned", was not returned somehow back into the house the entire 240 V would be "used up" and sent into the sewer (in your analogy).



slownsteady said:


> The part that puzzles me is that the device is only on one circuit (branch). How does that filter electricity on the other branches? Wouldn't it need to be upstream of the main breaker?



Slownsteady, that certainly would make more sence and infact when I first read about the filter I presumed that was how it was installed (until I found out differently).  BUT the company states that all devices (like HVAC) that is attached to both the A / B legs as well as any circuit on the A or on the B legs will be "cleaned".  But I cannot see how that could work.

I can only say that the company has a good rating and I cannot find but one complaint againt them and that customer was eventually given their money back (or so the complaint says).  If this was snake oil, and I have seem many instances of such, I would expect to see all kinds of complaints all over the internet.  This company has been in business for over a decade and has been bulding these boxes for many of those years.  I will just "hope" and wait and see if this "new" box works as expected.  I will absolutely post an update once I recieve and install the replacement box.


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## Eddie_T (Aug 1, 2020)

I read a review of the major brands and found no significant negatives other than expense but the reviews were based upon subjective testimonials. The expense makes me wonder since filters are usually just passive elements such as capacitors and inductors.

I did find this link which is interesting;
Some Facts About Dirty Electricity - Radiation Safety Institute of Canada


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