# Questions about building snow roof over deck



## SidecarBob (Sep 25, 2017)

*Background:*
I live in South Central Ontario and I have a 6' x 20' deck at the back of the 23 year old brick veneer house that was built by the contractor who built the house. It is approx. 42" above grade and supported by a ledger/joist attached to the wall and four 4x4 posts right at the outer edge. The posts are set on bricks, about 4-5" below grade and end at the railings, approx. 43" above the floor. It is framed with 2x6s (all end nailed - no joist hangers) and the floor is 2x4s.

We have always shovelled the deck in winter so that the laundry room door and patio door could be used as emergency exits (fortunately never needed so far). A few years ago we had the roof done with steel shingles and now the snow slides off regularly, filling the deck. One morning last April I woke to 6" of snow on the deck and an hour later heard the "avalanche and the snow was almost up to the deck's railing (that time I only cleared from the laundry door to the stairs - it all melted within a few days anyway). 

*The project:*
I have been talking about putting a roof over the deck to carry the snow past it when it slides off  for years and always forgot when I wasn't shovelling it off but we had a heat pump installed last year and I want to get to the project before it is damaged by the snow sliding onto it. The heat pump is on legs on the ground (on patio stones), right near the end of the deck so I figure if I build the roof 4' longer than the deck it will protect the heat pump too.

*Question #1: *
There is 89" between the deck floor and the soffit. 
Assuming the framing doesn't overhang the edge of the deck (the steel can go an inch or so past), 2x6 framing and an inch + for corrugations in the metal, if there is 72" from the floor to the top of the roof at the outer edge the bottom of the edge of the edge joist/facer will be about 65" above the floor and any lower will render the deck useless. 
That means that the pitch would be approx. 1 in 4.25 (2.83 in 12). Is that enough pitch for straight steel panels to shed snow?

*Question #2:*
I really don't want to dismantle the deck any more than I have to and I don't want to pour footings. Can I cut the bottom end off of each of the existing posts and put deck blocks under them?

*Question #3:*
If I do that would I be better to extend the posts to support the outer edge of the roof by
*A)* Extending them with lap joints bolted through (not my favourite idea)
*B)* Sandwiching the original posts between 2x4s (or 2x6s?) (not the best looking solution)
*C)* Cutting the posts off at floor level and building a 2x4 (2x6?) frame wall to support the roof. (I am leaning to this idea.)

*Question #4:
*If I build a framed wall I would still need an additional post for the part of the roof that would be over the heat pump. Would I need to build the framed wall all the way to that post or can it end at the end of the deck?

*Question #5
*The existing outer edge joist is currently a single 2x6. I expect that if I build a framed wall on top of it I would need to add material for it  to bear the load. If I did that I would want the added piece to extend to the post supporting the end of the roof above the heat pump to stabilize it. 
Can I just nail another 2x6 (2x4?) to the existing one for that?

That's all for now. I'm sure I will find other questions as I figure out what I need to order for this...


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

You get away with the deck sitting on blocks because the deck can flex when the ground freezes and that may pull nails from the ledger.
You do not get so lucky with the roof. You would want footers and piers to support the roof.

For starters while you think it over I would build a dog house roof over the heat pump to protect that and keep the snow away from it.
You could just add a skirt roof to move a snow a little further from the door. 
Or snow stopper thingies they put across the steel roof to slow the snow slide.


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## bud16415 (Sep 25, 2017)

The first problem I see is that your deck is connected to the house on one side with a ledger and the other side and center posts are free floating. We live just across the lake from you and have similar winters and maybe even more snow. My deck is built free floating but not connected to the house so with freeze thaws it can move independent of the house that has deep footings and does not move. You will be seeing maybe an inch of movement on one side of your deck and zero on the other if I&#8217;m reading this right and that movement will work on those nail connections until something fails. 

If the deck is 23 years old that is a good sign that the structure is somehow working configured like this. Replacing the bricks with the precast footings won&#8217;t really change much and should be no worse than the bricks I think. 

I just had a steel roof put on this summer and I have a similar situation where the house roof will shed snow to the deck roof. I will be watching this closely as I didn&#8217;t have them put the snow retainers on but I have a box of them if needed. Time will tell. 

What pitch is on your main roof and what pitch will be on the new deck roof? 

You might want to think about the snow retention clips as well.


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## SidecarBob (Sep 25, 2017)

Even though the house is fairly new and built to modern standards I like the idea of the snow coming off the roof on its own. We haven't been having as much snow in recent years but there is always the chance of a heavy year. Which adds up to I would rather not add the stoppers if I don't have to. BTW: We had the eaves troughs done at the same time as the roof and the sliding snow doesn't seem to have loosened them at all. That was 9 years ago when the "25 year" asphalt shingles failed.

FWIW, I was under the deck re-caulking a couple of windows last week and the framing seems to be tightly together so the nails don't seem to have pulled out. So far. I wonder if that has anything to do with the bricks that the posts sit on being a few inches below grade?

I am thinking about the precast footings for 2 reasons: 1) to support the extra weight (they would have about 2-3 times the area) and 2) The outer edge has a bit of a sag. Most people don't notice the sag but I inherited my Dad's eye for straight & level (he was a carpenter/cabinet maker for most of his career) and it bothers me. This would be a good way to get it back up to level.

The house roof has a 7 in 14.5 pitch (1 in 2.1) and if I build the deck roof as described above it would have 1 in 4.25 or about half the pitch of the house roof. That is my big concern because if it isn't enough there is no point doing it unless I rip out the whole deck and rebuild lower.

I think Erie gets more snow than we do. We are in what some people refer to as Ontario's "banana belt", getting about half the snow that people living half an hour's drive north or south of here get and a lot less than they get near Lake Ontario. I think it is because even the biggest lake near here (Lake Simcoe) freezes over completely most years so there is nowhere west of us for the wind to pick up moisture to drop on us.


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

Perhaps there are footing under the deck and some one raised out of the dirt with bricks. They will be 3 1/2 to 4 ft in your area

Pitch is understood better if it si stated as rise over 12" as in 6/12 or 9/12.


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## SidecarBob (Sep 25, 2017)

Sorry. The house roof is 5.75/12 and without lowering the deck its roof would be 2.83/12.

I stopped digging when I found the bricks. I could dig a bit deeper and see but I doubt that there is any concrete under there. The house has been in our family since built (we inherited it from my parents); I know I haven't ever dug around where the posts go into the ground or raised the level of the soil in the 17 years we have lived here and I'm pretty sure my Dad didn't either. 

I could dig down a bit more to see what's under the bricks but its 30c out there with the sun hammering down on the back of the house so it will have to wait until it starts to cool off.


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

SidecarBob said:


> Sorry. The house roof is 5.75/12 and without lowering the deck its roof would be 2.83/12.
> 
> I stopped digging when I found the bricks. I could dig a bit deeper and see but I doubt that there is any concrete under there. The house has been in our family since built (we inherited it from my parents); I know I haven't ever dug around where the posts go into the ground or raised the level of the soil in the 17 years we have lived here and I'm pretty sure my Dad didn't either.
> 
> I could dig down a bit more to see what's under the bricks but its 30c out there with the sun hammering down on the back of the house so it will have to wait until it starts to cool off.



Get a 4 ft piece of rebar and pound it in on angle and see if it will go under the brick or run into something solid.


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## SidecarBob (Sep 25, 2017)

And under the brick is.... Drumroll please... Gravel


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## joecaption (Sep 25, 2017)

Post a picture so we can see what your seeing please.


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

SidecarBob said:


> And under the brick is.... Drumroll please... Gravel



My story stays the same. you would need footers


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## SidecarBob (Sep 25, 2017)

Joe, do you mean what I see in the hole or overall? 

Not that it would make a lot of difference anyway. This forum won't let me upload pics directly and I'm not going to use Photobucket 

Neal, if I have to put in footings I won't be doing it. I'm not up to digging 5 holes a foot across and 4' deep by hand and using a post hole auger would mean removing the deck to get it into place.


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

SidecarBob said:


> Joe, do you mean what I see in the hole or overall?
> 
> Not that it would make a lot of difference anyway. This forum won't let me upload pics directly and I'm not going to use Photobucket
> 
> Neal, if I have to put in footings I won't be doing it. I'm not up to digging 5 holes a foot across and 4' deep by hand and using a post hole auger would mean removing the deck to get it into place.



I would dig the holes 1 ft outside the deck and leave the deck alone.
5 holes, how wide?


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## SidecarBob (Sep 25, 2017)

I don't understand. The last time I rented an auger (a couple of decades ago at another house) I was able to use it for the holes out in the open but the one close to the wall had to be dug by hand. And if I did manage to dig the holes a foot out from the deck how would the footings support the posts?

BTW: Only 4 of the holes would need to be under the deck for the existing posts. The 5th one would be out in the open by the heat pump. 

Joe: I just realized that I can attach images so again what do you want a pic of?


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

There are new augers. You dig a 8" hole do your best to make the vary bottom a little bigger fill it with concrete and place post saddle in the top. and build the roof off that.

It is to bad you didn't do this before the steel roof went up, a shed roof could have met the main roof a little further up.
I guess you could put 12 ft between 6x6 posts and 3 ply 2x10 beams , but slope may be a problem


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## SidecarBob (Sep 25, 2017)

I don't know if putting in posts for the roof outside of the existing deck would work. I'll have to think about that.


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

SidecarBob said:


> I don't know if putting in posts for the roof outside of the existing deck would work. I'll have to think about that.



I hate the look but if you put the rafters to the beam in hangers instead of running over top, you gain a little height .
Minimum ceiling height is 80"


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

How ugly could it be


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## Sparky617 (Sep 27, 2017)

For a roof over your deck you could do something like this: http://www.skylifthardware.com/  This would allow you to have the pitch you want/need without having the deck roof come down to 6 feet at the end of the deck.

To keep the snow from your roof from sliding onto your deck you could use roof snow guards:  http://www.metalroofsnowguards.com/


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## Sparky617 (Sep 27, 2017)

nealtw said:


> How ugly could it be



That's pretty ugly.


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## SidecarBob (Sep 27, 2017)

Sparky, I think the Skylift setup is pretty ugly too and besides, the snow would slide under it so there would be no advantage for me.

Neal, I have been thinking about it while I worked on my other project yesterday (sanding furniture in this heat is not fun and I ended up having to take my ROS apart to clean the commutator and brushes when it stopped working). If I attached the deck roof under the soffit and put the posts farther out that would require the edge of the roof to be even lower to have any amount of pitch so I don't want to do  that either.

Going back to my original questions, if I built it the way I proposed would there be enough pitch? If there wouldn't the project is not feasible. 

As you said, it would have been easier to extend the roof when we had the steel shingles installed but that was a long time ago and we didn't know that much more snow would slide off than before. This has to be a relatively quick & simple project that I can do mostly on my own so digging into the existing roof to attach it there is not going to happen.


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## nealtw (Sep 27, 2017)

So you look at risk and reward.
You can go higher at the house if you go into the gutter height with the soffets removed the rafters are hung off the house.
The problem here is the waterproofing joint between new and old as the snow will slode down the old but stop on the low slope and water could back up there.

You can build with posts above the posts on the deck.
With out the footing we have an unknown, it may never heave but if it moves it not only works the joint between house and rafters but it work the roofing joint too.

I am not say you shouldn't or you can't I just like it when we understand what could go wrong. So if you want to build it I will still help where I can.


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## SidecarBob (Sep 27, 2017)

What do you think about the 2.83/12 pitch I would need to have on the deck roof? Like I said, if that won't work the project is not feasible...

BTW: There would be about a foot drop between where the snow slides off the edge of the existing roof and where it hits the deck roof. Maybe that might give it a bit more inertia?


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## bud16415 (Sep 27, 2017)

My deck as I noted is free float and not attached to the house. And for what it&#8217;s worth in the Erie climate it moves up and down less than an inch. That is with a 6000 lb hot tub sitting on it. The roof I built covered pergola is attached only to the deck and not the house roof. It was built to keep rain and snow off the hot tub mainly and has a gap of about 6&#8221; between the roof and gutter. Mine happens to have only 1&#8221; of drop over 10&#8217; away from the house and is covered with steel roofing. It has stood fine for 2 winters and sometimes has several feet of snow on it. The system worked well and the house roof being shingles held its snow.

This summer we had the whole house done in steel and my fear like yours is 2&#8217; of snow coming once and taking out the lower flat roof over the tub. The other plan and It might still happen is to put just in that area the snow holders. 

The gap between the roofs bridges over with snow and hasn&#8217;t been a problem.


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## nealtw (Sep 27, 2017)

SidecarBob said:


> What do you think about the 2.83/12 pitch I would need to have on the deck roof? Like I said, if that won't work the project is not feasible...
> 
> BTW: There would be about a foot drop between where the snow slides off the edge of the existing roof and where it hits the deck roof. Maybe that might give it a bit more inertia?



Yeah I don't know what surface would be on that low slope or how the snow would move. My fear would be a pile of snow from the roof sliding down and just sitting there.
It could over load the roof or if it sat there until melt, would it cause a great big Ice dam.

Have you seen other roofs like this in the area. Others around you have the same snow load and melt problems even if they don't have metal shingles.


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## Sparky617 (Sep 27, 2017)

The Skylift would solve the snow from the sky, not the snow from the roof.  The snow guards would keep the snow on the roof.  You'd need to do both.

Your deck is way under-engineered by today's standards.  No way could I have 4x4 posts, and no joist hangers, unless the deck is resting on a beam and the rim joist away from the house, is just there to keep the joists in place.


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## SidecarBob (Sep 27, 2017)

Re Skylift: My problem isn't the snow that falls from the sky onto the deck but the stuff that slides off of the roof onto the deck.

Re snow holders: I just plain don't like the idea.

Re pitch: The deck roof would have straight ribbed steel roofing panels with the ribs running in the direction of the pitch. I believe that this would be at least as slippery as the steel shingles.


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## nealtw (Sep 27, 2017)

Skylift is great for rain most of the time but when the wind blows the snow around , they don't do much and would still allow snow to fall on the deck. But sometimes they are the answer, like when it is shade you are looking for.

I have a standing seam on a little roof over a door, it is about a 5/12 and the snow sat there until it warmed up and then took the gutter off.
If you see a problem with snow not sliding on the low slope I guess you could add a little heat from below, like a bar b cue or something like a long pull stick you could work from the back yard.


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## SidecarBob (Sep 27, 2017)

It slides off the house roof really well (& really fast when it starts moving) so I was hoping the inertia from the snow coming off the roof would make it move off the deck roof. I wonder if one of those cable heaters they sell for preventing ice dams could be installed under the steel to help make it move better?

I don't remember if I mentioned but this is on the south side of the house so the snow always comes off that side of the roof first.

I just realized that I can't lower the deck to get a steeper pitch either because there are 2 windows below the deck and the joist attached to the wall is about half an inch above the tops of their frames.


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## nealtw (Sep 27, 2017)

I would drive around to see if I could find a similar set up and ask how it works.


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## SidecarBob (Sep 27, 2017)

Yeah, the problem with that is that anything similar would be in people's back yards where you can't see it from the road.


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## danlycarporte (Oct 3, 2017)

Post a picture so we can see what your seeing please.


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## SidecarBob (Oct 3, 2017)

One morning last April I woke to a few inches of snow on the deck. An hour or so later I heard the avalanche and saw this


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## Sparky617 (Oct 3, 2017)

Going with a lower pitched roof is less than ideal.  Have you thought about doing a reverse gable roof to cover the deck?  You also really need to know what you're dealing with respect to footers under that deck. You'll definitely need decent footers, probably 48" down and larger posts supporting the deck.


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## SidecarBob (Oct 3, 2017)

What do you mean "reverse gable"?


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## Sparky617 (Oct 3, 2017)

SidecarBob said:


> What do you mean "reverse gable"?



http://thedexperts.com/index.php/photo-galleries/covered-decks-screened-porches



A roof that is perpendicular to the main roof of the house.  If you have a single story house it would intersect up on the roof and there would be a valley between the house roof and the porch roof.


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## SidecarBob (Oct 3, 2017)

I know what a gable is but what is a "reverse" gable?

As I mentioned in the first post, the soffit of the house roof is only 89" above the floor of the deck. That means that adding a gable over the deck would require modifying the house roof significantly and that is way beyond the scope of this project.


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## Sparky617 (Oct 3, 2017)

Reverse gable:  A roof that is perpendicular to the main roof of the house. If you have a single story house it would intersect up on the roof and there would be a valley between the house roof and the porch roof.

Given the headroom with your house roof doing a lean-to roof is going to be very difficult.  With only 89" at the edge of the house roof, you're starting out at less than 8' before you add anything over the deck.


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## SidecarBob (Oct 3, 2017)

I've never heard it called that before. But as they say "You learn something old (but new to you) every day..."

See "Question #1" in my original post. I figure the lowest that is reasonable is 72" to the top of the roof at the outer edge of the deck, which would produce about half the pitch of the house roof.

As I said before, if this can't be a quick & simple project that I can do on my own it isn't going to happen.


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## nealtw (Oct 3, 2017)

The valley set puts you back mucking with the roof you have now.


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## Sparky617 (Oct 3, 2017)

SidecarBob said:


> I've never heard it called that before. But as they say "You learn something old (but new to you) every day..."
> 
> See "Question #1" in my original post. I figure the lowest that is reasonable is 72" to the top of the roof at the outer edge of the deck, which would produce about half the pitch of the house roof.
> 
> As I said before, if this can't be a quick & simple project that I can do on my own it isn't going to happen.



IMHO a roof with only 72" at the top so probably 66" under the roof would reduce the value of your house.  If I were a buyer I would immediately assume I'm going to have to tear it off and redo it.  Either do it right or don't do it all.


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## slownsteady (Oct 3, 2017)

SidecarBob said:


> As I said before, if this can't be a quick & simple project that I can do on my own it isn't going to happen.


Then don't do it. 
Back around post #19 or 20, you said that the old shingle roof held the snow from sliding. Snow guards do the same thing, and your roof has already proved it can handle it. you may not like the look of it, but you may not like the look of a new shed roof either - once it's complete.

Another random thought: I don't know enough about metal roofs to suggest this, but if you increase the insulation under the roof, will the chances of a slide be as great?


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## danlycarporte (Oct 9, 2017)

Please post some pictures.


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## SidecarBob (Oct 9, 2017)

Pics of the deck below.

I know the roof will support the load of the amount of snow we are likely to get. I just like the idea of it not having to in the event of a significant weather event like a 100 year snowfall. But if it can't be done it can't be done so I have given up on putting a roof over the deck and I have contacted a couple of steel roof places about adding the snow stoppers.

I am going to get some deck blocks to put under the posts & take the sag out of the deck in the process and rebuild the stairs.


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## Sparky617 (Oct 9, 2017)

There are two ways you can do this to my mind:

1. Install a shed roof starting about halfway up your existing roof but at a flatter pitch.
2. Install a reverse gable roof.

Both would require:
1. Altering your existing roof
2. Verifying that your footers can support the load and are deep enough for your frost line
3. Beefing up the deck supports to 6x6's.

If you wanted to extend your roof without altering the existing roof, I'd tear off the deck and build a ground level patio to not block your basement windows that are currently under the deck.  I prefer ground level patios anyway when you're not a full story off the ground.  They require less maintenance and are easier to incorporate into the landscaping of your yard.  That said, I think adding a roof like that will really reduce the light coming into your existing windows.

Otherwise, the snow stoppers are the way to go to prevent the snow avalanche.  Beefing up the insulation in your attic will help keep your roof cold and keep the snow on it longer.


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## SidecarBob (Oct 9, 2017)

There is really only 1 window in the area where I would have put the roof and that is for the room I am sitting in as I type this. In the days of CRT monitors I always kept the blind drawn because of the glare but with an LED monitor I rarely draw it. And being on the south side, the sun shining in through the patio door fades everything in there and heats up the room even with the blinds closed so reducing the light coming in would actually be a benefit most days.

We have a foot or more of blown in fibreglass, well over the height of the ceiling joists everywhere so I don't think more insulation would make that much difference. The problem is that snow isn't a very good insulator so when the sun shines on it the roof underneath heats up, causing the layer next to the roof to melt. Since there is no grit like on asphalt shingles for the snow to grip the thin layer of water acts as a lubricant and the snow slides off. This is considered one of the advantages of a steel roof because it means that even in significant snow events you virtually never have to remove snow from the roof. I just wish it would land a few feet farther away when it does.

Adding something to keep the snow from sliding off seems like taking a step backwards. But I am not getting any younger and shovelling off the deck has never been my idea of fun.


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## slownsteady (Oct 9, 2017)

You don't have to put snow guards all over, just over doors. Commercial buildings sometimes do it that way as a convenience to customers and shop owners.


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## SidecarBob (Oct 9, 2017)

Yeah, but I want to be able to get out through either door and the stairs are in between so that means the whole deck has to be covered and the heat pump is close enough to the deck that protecting it separately probably wouldn't work.

Re patio: Changing to a patio might be OK in places where the ground floor is only a couple of feet above grade but with about 4' I don't think that would be practical here. It would mean replacing one set of stairs with two (both of which would have to be shovelled) and it would mean carrying everything up & down stairs every time to use the barbecue (we rarely eat outside and as I said, we aren't getting any younger) and would probably eliminate the possibility of using the barbecue in winter during power failures (where it is now it is just outside the sliding door).


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## danlycarporte (Oct 16, 2017)

Post a picture so we can see what your seeing please.


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## Sparky617 (Oct 16, 2017)

danlycarporte said:


> Post a picture so we can see what your seeing please.



He has posted pictures, scroll up and go to the first page of the post.


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## SidecarBob (Oct 16, 2017)

A local roofing company will be installing 30' of beam type snow guard that should reduce the shovelling to an acceptable amount. 

The wood to rebuild the deck stairs and the deck blocks have arrived. I have been advised that, since the ground where the blocks will sit is going to be disturbed when I cut off the ends of the posts and pull them out of the ground, I should dig them out and put in a foot or so of packed gravel so I have to call about that today. 

In the meantime, I have an old injury in my left shoulder that sometimes aches but lately it has been hurting almost the way my right one did when I tore the rotator cuff a few years ago so I will be going to have it scanned to make sure (they will do the right one too as a check-up, even though it feels OK). I am trying to avoid lifting any substantial weight with the left or working above my head until I know for sure. I also twisted my left knee last week while just turning to pick something up; It is getting better each day but I still need to take it easy for another few days. All of that adds up to I might not start working on the stairs for a few more days and maybe its a good thing I won't be taking on the project of building the roof.


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## SidecarBob (Nov 20, 2017)

It turns out that I do have a tear in my left rotator cuff but it is minor and I won't need surgery. I should get a call to start physio any day. And my knee is getting closer to normal every day.

One of our daughters came home for a few days and helped me level the deck. I measured down the same distance on each post and marked them, then one post at a time we jacked up the deck next to each post, cut the post off at the mark with a reciprocating saw, dug out the bricks and made a hole a couple of feet deep and filled it with gravel (crusher run), tamped the gravel, lowered the deck back to level and adjusted the top of the gravel to leave room for a deck block, then lifted the deck again, slid the deck block into place and dropped the deck so the post sits solidly in the block. The deck is now flat and level in both directions. I expect the gravel to settle a bit, giving the deck a bit of pitch for drainage.

The old stairs were attached by nailing the stringers to the 2x6 facer of the deck from underneath so that you stepped down from the deck to the top step. While working on levelling the deck I realized that a lot of the 2x4 decking is pretty far gone. It was too late to get it finished this year so the new plan is to strip the 2x4s off in the spring, check the condition of the framing and replace whatever I need to then. So I decided to attach the new stairs with concealed stringer hangers so that I can remove them as a unit if I have to do anything serious with the framing. The first thing I learned is that with the hangers as low as possible the top step would be about 1.5" below the deck (= tripping hazard). The regular solution would have been to add another 2x6 below the facer and hang them from that so the step would be the same but the deck & stairs already block the light from the basement window and I didn't want to make that worse so that was out.

No prob - I'll just hang them so the top step is level with the deck and you walk out onto it before stepping down. Bit I had already hung the stringers temporarily with a couple of screws when I realized that I would need 6 steps instead of 5 to bring them down to the same grade as before and I couldn't take the stringers back with screw holes so I started exploring options. I could get another 2x6 and build a plinth/bottom step for them to sit on top of but I had no way to bring a 2x6 home and besides, it would look cobbled together. I was already planning to salvage a couple of patio slabs from the former dog pen (on the right in the pics - we aren't planning to have dogs again and one day we'll plant vegetables there so the slabs are redundant) for the stairs to rest on so they won't rot and I got a lot more gravel so why not raise the slabs to meet the stairs? But Then I would need to get more wood to build a frame around the slabs... My neighbour suggested I salvage some of the wood from the old stairs to build a frame around the slabs... OK but then I discovered that you are required to have a flat area at the bottom of the stairs and 2 slabs wouldn't be enough....

Here's what I ended up doing: The landing at the bottom of the stairs is 3x3 slabs (x 18" slabs = approx. 54' square), framed with PT wood from the old stairs and filled inside with gravel so the slabs are just a bit higher than the wood and I filled the gaps with sand mix concrete to deter weeds. I then backfilled around the outside of the frame with more gravel and spread the dirt from the holes under the posts plus some that my neighbour wanted to get rid of over it so that the grass will grow up to the wood and hold everything in place as the wood rots away. You can't see it very well in the pic but I set a couple of the slabs into the dirt/gravel to provide a clean place to stand while putting stuff into the composter (the big black thing to the right of the stairs) too.


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