# Pool Light will not stay on



## Zomalaja (May 27, 2016)

I redid my pool in 1993, including a new pool light. I used brass conduit from the light niche to a junction box and it is fed by a 20A GFI breaker, Siemens QF120, type QPF. It gets very low usage but several months ago the lamp burned out. I pulled the unit out, replaced the lamp and reinstalled. Was fine for a month or so then started shutting off, at first every hour or so, then more and more often. Took the entire unit out and noticed that the cord seal was brittle and cracked but no moisture was inside the lamp assembly. Even though the seal is only protecting an area that is completely filled with potting resin, I dug out the old rubber, and replaced it with special silicone designed for pools. Made no difference. I bought a brand new light assembly and installed that, same thing. Yesterday I replaced the breaker with a new one but still, after 10-15 minutes, it trips. There are absolutely no nicks, cuts etc in the cord, the end was sealed before pulling the cord to the J-Box and a foot or two was removed anyway. Any ideas would be appreciated. I was so sure that it was the breaker. . .


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## nealtw (May 27, 2016)

So is the breaker tripping or the gfci tripping


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## JoeD (May 27, 2016)

Could be a fault in the line from the junction box to the breaker.
Try leaving it disconnected in the junction box and turning it on. See if it still trips.


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## Zomalaja (May 27, 2016)

nealtw said:


> So is the breaker tripping or the gfci tripping



How can I tell if the breaker is tripped from overload or Ground Fault ?
It looks like any other tripped breaker.


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## Zomalaja (May 27, 2016)

JoeD said:


> Could be a fault in the line from the junction box to the breaker.
> Try leaving it disconnected in the junction box and turning it on. See if it still trips.



There are no connections in the Junction Box-I deliberately avoided cutting the cable. The box is connected to the panel with metallic flex and there is a separate ground from the panel to the Junction Box.


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## nealtw (May 27, 2016)

Zomalaja said:


> How can I tell if the breaker is tripped from overload or Ground Fault ?
> It looks like any other tripped breaker.



Sorry, apparently there are dumb questions. And


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## JoeD (May 27, 2016)

Zomalaja said:


> There are no connections in the Junction Box-I deliberately avoided cutting the cable. The box is connected to the panel with metallic flex and there is a separate ground from the panel to the Junction Box.



Then where is the connection for the new light you installed?


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## Zomalaja (May 27, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Sorry, apparently there are dumb questions. And



If you are saying that you asked a dumb question, I'd say no problem.

If you are saying that I asked a dumb question, I'd say please try helping instead of insulting.


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## nealtw (May 27, 2016)

Zomalaja said:


> If you are saying that you asked a dumb question, I'd say no problem.
> 
> If you are saying that I asked a dumb question, I'd say please try helping instead of insulting.



The dumb question was mine.So please don't be insulted.:beer:


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## Zomalaja (May 27, 2016)

JoeD said:


> Then where is the connection for the new light you installed?



The light came with a 50 foot 16/3 water resistant jacketed cable. The brass conduit goes from the light niche in the pool to a brass box approximately 3 feet above the pool water level. From there a piece of metallic flex (Liquitite?) goes to the main panel. All the connections are inside that panel. A #14 ground wire goes from ground in the panel through the Brass Box, where it is grounded and then to the brass ring in the light niche which has a connection for a ground wire. In addition, the #10 or 12 screw that holds the light in electrically connects the casing of the lamp to the brass ring. The light is a Hayward SP0582SL50 Astrolight 300W 120V with 50ft Cord. See it here.
The Junction Box is like a Hayward SP0680 but is solid brass instead of plastic as is currently made.

I don't know if you want all the details but:
The light is controlled by a switch in the house, the hot leg of the switch connects to the breaker, the switch return to the light hot wire, the light neutral to the neutral bar and the light and the Junction Box/Conduit/Mounting Ring ground to the ground bar.


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## Zomalaja (May 27, 2016)

nealtw said:


> The dumb question was mine.So please don't be insulted.:beer:



No worries at all.


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## nealtw (May 27, 2016)

Zomalaja said:


> No worries at all.



So at the breaker box you could bypass the switch leg and prove you haven't got  a problem there.


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## Snoonyb (May 27, 2016)

So far you've probably spent a lot of money unnecessarily.

The process of elimination begins with the switch, and if it is not a commercial grade you should replace it. With the breaker off remove the switch and wirenut the two conductors together, turn the breaker back on and if the problem persists, turn the breaker back off, leave the switch conductors connected.

At the service panel disconnect the conductor supplying the switch leg and connect the conductor going to the fixture too the breaker, and turn the breaker back on.

If the problem persists then there is a fault of some origin in the wiring to the fixture.

The benefit of Installing a smart GFCI in the brass pool box would effectively separated the conductors into two definable sections.

Do you have a VOM or a clamp-on current meter or a megger?


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## Speedbump (May 28, 2016)

Somewhere in the system your leaving a transformer out.  All the pools I have worked on including my own have a 120 to 12 volt transformer to drop the voltage to a safe level since it's in the water.  It's possible the transformer is internally shorted and that is driving the breaker nuts.


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## kok328 (May 28, 2016)

So this setup consist of a breaker box/new gfic breaker , on/off switch, niche and new lamp with factory cord whip ran back to the panel via conduit. 
Must be a bad switch or a bad new breaker or bad new lamp. 

What happens when you temporarily wire this lamp to a different breaker?

This will sort out the breaker from the lamp. Also try this with and without the switch bypassed to eliminate that as a potential problem. 

I once had a water heater that would trip a gfic breaker on ground fault not overload but would run just fine on a non-gfic outlet.


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## Zomalaja (May 28, 2016)

Speedbump - there is no transformer.

As I mentioned earlier "The light is a Hayward SP0582SL50 Astrolight 300W 120V with 50ft Cord."
As far as I know, LED based pool lights have a 120/240 to 12V transformer, and some Incandescent/Halogen etc lights have a low voltage option.

See the light here at manufacturers website.


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## Zomalaja (May 28, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> So far you've probably spent a lot of money unnecessarily.
> 
> The process of elimination begins with the switch, and if it is not a commercial grade you should replace it. With the breaker off remove the switch and wirenut the two conductors together, turn the breaker back on and if the problem persists, turn the breaker back off, leave the switch conductors connected.
> 
> ...



I have already bypassed the switch as well as the switch wiring, no difference.

I have no idea what is meant by "The benefit of Installing a smart GFCI in the brass pool box." I have a GFI pass-thru device meant for a std box, there is no way it could be properly installed in the pool junction box, it is more like a small pull box.

The lamp is 300W, why would I need a "commercial" switch ? The switches I have have switched every light in my home for years and years including the old pool light which was 300W as well as a back yard light which is 3x150 Watt.

I have a Digital VOM, a clamp-on amp meter and an unfortunately dead Simpson 260 that Simpson could not repair.

I am getting suspicious of the new breaker I bought, thinking that just by coincidence, I got a bad one. Tomorrow I plan to pull the light out completely, put a grounded plug on the cord, submerse it in a drum of water and plug it into a known good GFI outlet in my garage or kitchen.


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## Snoonyb (May 28, 2016)

When in the process of elimination you have determined that the fault lies between the breaker and the fixture, shut the breaker off, open the pool box and cut the power cord, stripping and separating the conductors leaving them in free space.

Turn the breaker back on.

Another question; the liquid-tite has a wrapped ground conductor.

It this ground conductor properly bonded to the ground terminals, at both ends?


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## Zomalaja (May 28, 2016)

nealtw said:


> So at the breaker box you could bypass the switch leg and prove you haven't got  a problem there.



Done that - bypassed the switch and then bypassed the switch and switch wiring. Tomorrow will tell more, planning on pulling the light out and trying elsewhere - damn pool is NOT warm at all.....


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## Snoonyb (May 28, 2016)

Thanks.

It was just a note.

Some of these pull bxs allow for a branch, where by the power is routed thru the GFI.

The downside is that the smart GFI has to be reset for each lighted period, or it is used as the switch, odd but within the imagined.


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## Zomalaja (May 28, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> When in the process of elimination you have determined that the fault lies between the breaker and the fixture, shut the breaker off, open the pool box and cut the power cord, stripping and separating the conductors leaving them in free space.
> 
> Turn the breaker back on.
> 
> ...



Cutting the cable is not going to happen.

the liquid-tite is bonded to the cabinet only because it is physically connected. I used a seperate ground wire to bond the mounting ring, the junction box and conduit, the cabinet and ground.


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## nealtw (May 28, 2016)

Zomalaja said:


> Cutting the cable is not going to happen.
> 
> the liquid-tite is bonded to the cabinet only because it is physically connected. I used a seperate ground wire to bond the mounting ring, the junction box and conduit, the cabinet and ground.



So does the lamp come with 50 cord attached to it?


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## Snoonyb (May 28, 2016)

That's unfortunate that they couldn't fix you PSM 4, mine hss be going for over 40yrs.


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## Snoonyb (May 28, 2016)

Zomalaja said:


> Cutting the cable is not going to happen.
> 
> the liquid-tite is bonded to the cabinet only because it is physically connected. I used a seperate ground wire to bond the mounting ring, the junction box and conduit, the cabinet and ground.



That's unfortunate, because it's the way you'll separate the areas of the possible conductor damage.


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## nealtw (May 28, 2016)

Just found this, a self testing breaker. If the breaker trips it may be finding a fault in the breaker.
http://www.geindustrial.com/product...ound-fault-circuit-interrupter-self-test-gfci


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## JoeD (May 28, 2016)

> Tomorrow I plan to pull the light out completely, put a grounded plug on the cord, submerse it in a drum of water and plug it into a known good GFI outlet in my garage or kitchen.



Try it dry first. If it works fine THEN drop in a tub of water.


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## Zomalaja (May 28, 2016)

nealtw said:


> So does the lamp come with 50 cord attached to it?



Yes it does. If I remember correctly they tell you never ever cut the cord except to make it shorter, use a separate wire to bond all grounded parts. Their actual spec calls for a #8 ground, the problem is that the hole in the ring that you are supposed to pass the wire through before tightening the compression screw is only big enough for a #14 wire and since it is plastered (white cement) in it would be quite impractical to try to enlarge it (Drain pool, build some scaffolding, chip out the ring, enlarge hole, plaster ring back and fill pool).


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## Zomalaja (May 28, 2016)

JoeD said:


> Try it dry first. If it works fine THEN drop in a tub of water.



Dry it can only be energized for a minute or so. A 300W bulb sealed in a space scarcely larger than itself gets very hot very fast. Pool lights depend on the pool water for cooling.


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## Zomalaja (May 28, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Just found this, a self testing breaker. If the breaker trips it may be finding a fault in the breaker.
> http://www.geindustrial.com/product...ound-fault-circuit-interrupter-self-test-gfci



Is that not the same as what I have ? Mine has a white button marked "TEST" that instantly trips the breaker when pressed.
looks like this one


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## nealtw (May 28, 2016)

All I know by reading that is this thing trips, no hint of ground fault, overload or bad breaker and no explanation how to sort it out.


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## Snoonyb (May 28, 2016)

Zomalaja said:


> Yes it does. If I remember correctly they tell you never ever cut the cord except to make it shorter.



So, following "their" advice, it would be almost impossible for the liquid-tite to have, unbeknownst to you, been internally fractured, adversely affecting the conductors when pulled through? REALLY!

That's what wirenuts or kerney nuts are for.


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## Zomalaja (May 29, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> So, following "their" advice, it would be almost impossible for the liquid-tite to have, unbeknownst to you, been internally fractured, adversely affecting the conductors when pulled through? REALLY!
> 
> That's what wirenuts or kerney nuts are for.



The reason the manufacturer does not want the user to cut the cable is at least partially because the lamp may need to be changed. When you pull out enough cable to get the fixture in a place to change the bulb, the end could get submerged. The liquidtite run from the JBox to the panel is around 24" and almost all of the cable and ground was pushed through effortlessly. No marks or cuts are on the cable so I would say it is extremely unlikely that a fracture occurred right at the last few feet of feeding. I think it is much more likely that the second breaker I got is defective, which I was going to test today. Unfortunately my 4Runner decided that yesterday evening was a good time for the fan idler pulley bearing(s) to partially disintegrate and lock up. Just to make it fun, when I removed the bad idler, it took all the tension off the valve timing belt and both camshafts moved. Pretty much all day and still not 100% done. I did learn thanks to you that what I always called "split bolts" have a trade name. Oh, and I had to stop work for a few hours because a house barely 500 feet from me caught fire, nasty smoke.


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## Snoonyb (May 30, 2016)

Well I guess 1 out of 6or7 ain't bad/

When I pull a pool fixture to change the lamp I attach a #14 to the ground conductor, seal the cord end and pull the fixture, change the lamp and reinstall the fixture. With very little moisture intrusion and if any a little time with a heat gun cures that.

Depending upon your area there may be aftermarket breaker wholesalers/retailers who have the equipment to load test the breaker, if not, here is a resource; http://www.thebluebook.com

If the breaker is not found to be defective, there are very few test you can perform without removing the lamp from the fixture.

Are you up for them?


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## Zomalaja (May 30, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Well I guess 1 out of 6or7 ain't bad/
> 
> When I pull a pool fixture to change the lamp I attach a #14 to the ground conductor, seal the cord end and pull the fixture, change the lamp and reinstall the fixture. With very little moisture intrusion and if any a little time with a heat gun cures that.
> 
> ...



Yes, certainly.


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## havasu (May 30, 2016)

I understand every case is different but I recently had a problem with my 20 amp GFI breaker going to the pool light. It kept tripping but after hours of diagnosing, we found a break in the common (white) that was touching metal flex on a leg closeby. It had nothing to do with the pool light, but since it was in my backyard, it was all tied together.


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## Zomalaja (May 30, 2016)

Got a new breaker this AM early and the light has been on steady for almost 6 hours. Thanks for all the suggestions.


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## kok328 (May 31, 2016)

kok328 said:


> So this setup consist of a breaker box/new gfic breaker , on/off switch, niche and new lamp with factory cord whip ran back to the panel via conduit.
> *Must be a bad switch or a bad new breaker *or bad new lamp.
> 
> What happens when you temporarily wire this lamp to a different breaker?
> ...



Did I win the booby prize ? :beer:


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## nealtw (May 31, 2016)

kok328 said:


> Did I win the booby prize ? :beer:



One blue footed booby for you.


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