# Twisted Joist



## corman842 (Feb 29, 2016)

Hi! I'm trying to determine if an issue I'm having is something that is a safety issue that requires immediate repair, or simply just cosmetic. I noticed that in the back portion of my dining room the floors were beginning to sag and the wall alongside had a crack (though it's a 116 year old house, so not sure if that's just typical). Beneath it it appears the floor joist is twisted (I assume that's the phrase for this? It's not sitting straight). I've attached pictures of the issue. There was a small amount of mold on the joist, which I've cleaned off, but it doesn't feel like the wood is rotted and other than some discoloration on the paint, it doesn't seem different from the other joists. Is this something I have to have repaired right away for safety's sake, or is this just an annoyance? How would I go about correcting it? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. 

P.S.: There may have been some level of water damage, but I'm not sure. During the summer I had come across some watery discharge from a floor standing AC above it, which I cleaned up but I'm not sure how long it was there. Also, there was a period where water would pool in the alley along the house near that area of the building, but this has since been remedied by extending the gutter out into the backyard. Just in case that's relevant. Thanks!


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## nealtw (Feb 29, 2016)

In this picture is the joist on the right the out side of the house.
Are you sure the house is that old?
Are there other areas that you can get pictures for a better look at the construction of the house?
What kind of siding do you have.
Yes this does look, well, not good!


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## Snoonyb (Feb 29, 2016)

corman842 said:


> Hi! I'm trying to determine if an issue I'm having is something that is a safety issue that requires immediate repair, or simply just cosmetic. I noticed that in the back portion of my dining room the floors were beginning to sag and the wall alongside had a crack (though it's a 116 year old house, so not sure if that's just typical). Beneath it it appears the floor joist is twisted (I assume that's the phrase for this? It's not sitting straight). I've attached pictures of the issue. There was a small amount of mold on the joist, which I've cleaned off, but it doesn't feel like the wood is rotted and other than some discoloration on the paint, it doesn't seem different from the other joists. Is this something I have to have repaired right away for safety's sake, or is this just an annoyance? How would I go about correcting it? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> P.S.: There may have been some level of water damage, but I'm not sure. During the summer I had come across some watery discharge from a floor standing AC above it, which I cleaned up but I'm not sure how long it was there. Also, there was a period where water would pool in the alley along the house near that area of the building, but this has since been remedied by extending the gutter out into the backyard. Just in case that's relevant. Thanks!



Interesting bridge blocking.

Is there any discoloration on the rim joist that would indicate this is a resent event?

Because the dia. dimension of the joist twisted could be reflected in s slight lifting of the floor, are you sure there is a sag, and not a slight lift?

It appears to me that because there is no obvious signs of nails where the joist has deflected, the deflection may be the result of that row of nails having been missed.

I'd just cut a couple of 2X blocks, reflective of the deflection and place them between the deflected joist and the next joist where the dimension at the top of the joist are the narrowest.


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## corman842 (Feb 29, 2016)

nealtw said:


> In this picture is the joist on the right the out side of the house.
> Are you sure the house is that old?
> Are there other areas that you can get pictures for a better look at the construction of the house?
> What kind of siding do you have.
> Yes this does look, well, not good!



I can try to get more shots once I'm home. The house may actually be older, records were lost after the Great Baltimore Fire, so everything built 1900 and earlier is just listed as "1900." It's an old brick rowhome, the exterior is brick with stucco on top. The joist to the right is the joist that runs along the stairway to the basement in the center of the house. Anything in particular that makes you think it looks not so good? Something a novice such as myself can address, or do you think I need someone to have a look at it? Thanks!


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## nealtw (Feb 29, 2016)

Anything that old is balloon frame, first we want figure out how it was built, what exactly is wrong and then figure how hard it would be to fix.

Can you figure out where the wall is upstairs compared to the floor joist on the right. I am talking about the wall in the picture with the floor damage, or am I going the wrong direction?


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## corman842 (Feb 29, 2016)

Ohhh, okay, gotcha. The joist to the right is alongside the stairwell, not the wall in the image. The wall in the image is above the joist to the left and the one to the left of that in the image you had in your post.


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## butch23 (Feb 29, 2016)

the house probably is that old because the lumber looks to be true 2"x 10". the walls from what i can tell look like plaster ,also i noticed the old galvanized pipe under the house first i would take any screws and  hangers holding the pipe to the joist loose ,then measure at the top in between the 2 joists and cuts several 2x10 blocks that measurement and if you have any help take about a 24" 2X4 block and screw it to the joist you want to straighten and let someone pull on it while the block is drove in and continue this for 3 or 4 2x10 blocks after you get it as straight as you can, put some blocks in the opposite bay just to prevent bowing again .give this a try and talk someone in to helping you and it shouldn't take to long .good luck .butch23


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## nealtw (Feb 29, 2016)

butch23 said:


> the house probably is that old because the lumber looks to be true 2"x 10". the walls from what i can tell look like plaster ,also i noticed the old galvanized pipe under the house first i would take any screws and  hangers holding the pipe to the joist loose ,then measure at the top in between the 2 joists and cuts several 2x10 blocks that measurement and if you have any help take about a 24" 2X4 block and screw it to the joist you want to straighten and let someone pull on it while the block is drove in and continue this for 3 or 4 2x10 blocks after you get it straight as you can put some blocks in the opposite bay just to prevent bowing again .give this a try and talk someone in to helping you and it shouldn't take to long .good luck .butch23



So all your proof of age can be found in any house built in 1946.
So the fix you talked about will fix the floor upstairs how and what do you think causes that problem?


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## nealtw (Feb 29, 2016)

After looking closer we can see the other end of that joist is ,or was stuck into the brick. Now I suspect that is where the floor is sagging
I think that much of the far end has rotted off which allowed it to bend over.
It should look much like this. That would hold them straight.
https://baltimorebrickbybrick.com/2014/12/16/joist-pockets/


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## corman842 (Feb 29, 2016)

Thanks guys, for all your responses! I'm most definitely a novice and I don't know if I trust myself to make these repairs properly. Is not addressing this a safety issue, or is it simply cosmetic? If I were to pay someone to help with this, would a general contractor do or would I need to go to some sort of specialist like a structural engineer? Any thoughts on typical costs for this type of fix? Thanks again for all the guidance and help!


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## JoeD (Feb 29, 2016)

A structural engineer will give you a solution but you will need to do the work or hire someone.
A general contractor will do the work and he may have his own engineer on staff or hire one.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 29, 2016)

corman842 said:


> Thanks guys, for all your responses! I'm most definitely a novice and I don't know if I trust myself to make these repairs properly. Is not addressing this a safety issue, or is it simply cosmetic? If I were to pay someone to help with this, would a general contractor do or would I need to go to some sort of specialist like a structural engineer? Any thoughts on typical costs for this type of fix? Thanks again for all the guidance and help!



A general contractor, at the most, or a competent handyman.


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## corman842 (Feb 29, 2016)

Okay, thanks! And as it appears, does this seem like a major safety issue/something that is apt to get worse over time, or is it something that can wait for a little bit?


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## Snoonyb (Feb 29, 2016)

corman842 said:


> Okay, thanks! And as it appears, does this seem like a major safety issue/something that is apt to get worse over time, or is it something that can wait for a little bit?



Getting a couple of estimates gives you an Idea of the extent of the repairs and deciding what and when, is up to you.

I, frankly, do not see an immediacy, from here in S. Ca.


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## nealtw (Feb 29, 2016)

Not knowing what your skills are, maybe, maybe, and maybe.

But no matter who you hire some investigating has to be done.
Some destruction may have to be done before we see what has to be done.
Non of this is rocket science and we can guide you thru it.

If not find a friend of a friend who is a carpenter and have him fix it.


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## nealtw (Feb 29, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Getting a couple of estimates gives you an Idea of the extent of the repairs and deciding what and when, is up to you.
> 
> I, frankly, do not see an immediacy, from here in S. Ca.



If I am right about the end of that joist is broke loose and we can't see the rest of the joists or the condition of the sub floor, do we have to see it before we are concerned.
I think we need more info before we make that decision.


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## Snoonyb (Mar 1, 2016)

nealtw said:


> If I am right about the end of that joist is broke loose and we can't see the rest of the joists or the condition of the sub floor, do we have to see it before we are concerned.
> I think we need more info before we make that decision.



I'm more concerned that the water leak may have softened the plate at the foundation causing the doubler supporting the wall to settle.

The "twisted joist" appears to have occurred some time ago and because there does not appear to be any bent or pulled nails, along with the 1x bridge  blocking, which may or may not exist, it became destiny.

He certainly needs someone to crawl around under there and poke around.


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## nealtw (Mar 1, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> I'm more concerned that the water leak may have softened the plate at the foundation causing the doubler supporting the wall to settle.
> 
> The "twisted joist" appears to have occurred some time ago and because there does not appear to be any bent or pulled nails, along with the 1x bridge  blocking, which may or may not exist, it became destiny.
> 
> He certainly needs someone to crawl around under there and poke around.



Do me a favor and look at some of the things I see.

I took that photo over to my computer and enlarged so I could see the brick at the other end of the bay. we can see the pipes go up thru the floor.
that style of building has the floor joist let into the brick wall, so for 100 years that wood has been subject to moisture coming and going in and out of the brick. 
The story is that there has been a fairly new damage caused by water but we really don't know new from old, just guessing at best.

Now go look at the photo of the oak floor, we can see the floor is spungey as the wood is separated, if we believe it was tight at one time.
When they did old plaster they often just put a 1x3 around door opening and windows and across the floor and built the plaster to that thickness. As this is a brick wall I suspect that that board across the floor against the brick was nailed to the floor.
All other trim or baseboards added were just nailed to the first one, so the crack we see between the molding and the plaster is because the floor is going down.
That crack is to long to be caused by one failed joist, I suspect 2 maybe 3 are no longer attached at the wall. If not completely rotted away severely compromised.
Thoughts?


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## Snoonyb (Mar 1, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Do me a favor and look at some of the things I see.
> 
> I took that photo over to my computer and enlarged so I could see the brick at the other end of the bay. we can see the pipes go up thru the floor.
> that style of building has the floor joist let into the brick wall, so for 100 years that wood has been subject to moisture coming and going in and out of the brick.
> ...



While all those assumption may prove to be true, along with the discoloration of the underside of the floor sheating lends to the presumption of waters deteriorating effect.

Someone needs to crawl into and investigate.


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## bud16415 (Mar 1, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Someone needs to crawl into and investigate.




I have had good luck with attaching my iPhone to a stick and turning on the movie record and light and sticking it back in some dark tight places and seeing what was going on. Just an idea if the area is going to be tough to belly into.


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## nealtw (Mar 1, 2016)

corman842 said:


> I can try to get more shots once I'm home. The house may actually be older, records were lost after the Great Baltimore Fire, so everything built 1900 and earlier is just listed as "1900." It's an old brick rowhome, the exterior is brick with stucco on top. The joist to the right is the joist that runs along the stairway to the basement in the center of the house. Anything in particular that makes you think it looks not so good? Something a novice such as myself can address, or do you think I need someone to have a look at it? Thanks!



Can you get to the room below those joists, if you can, just push up on them and see if they move.


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## nealtw (Mar 1, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> While all those assumption may prove to be true, along with the discoloration of the underside of the floor sheating lends to the presumption of waters deteriorating effect.
> 
> Someone needs to crawl into and investigate.



Yes a lot of what I wrote is assumption.
But we have to look at cause and effect and related problems.

So the question was a soft floor with some facts about water leaking.
When the OP looked down stairs, he found a twisted joists.
As you pointed out, it may have been like that for a long time, so what has changed.
With the big crack along the floor molding upstairs I have to assume there is a problem with more than one floor joists.

I could be proven wrong but the key is proof.

I just think if I or you or Butch showed up to look at this we would not stop at the floor joist and figure just how to fix what we can see.
With our experience we all would spend five minutes and try to figure out what is causing the problem and any time the word water comes up, we want to investigate for mold.

The OP has to be our eyes and sometimes it takes patience to get the right answers when the OP is being confused by other DIYers giving suggestions for a quick fix.
I just think the pros have to ask enough questions and get the answers so they can get that five minute evaluation done.

And it is true , we do make assumptions and when we dig into jobs we do find things sometimes less and sometimes more than what we thought.


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## oldognewtrick (Mar 1, 2016)

True Neal, it's usually the can of worms effect.


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## Snoonyb (Mar 1, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Yes a lot of what I wrote is assumption.
> But we have to look at cause and effect and related problems.
> 
> So the question was a soft floor with some facts about water leaking.
> ...



Until the OP actually gets someone to invite him under the house and takes a little time to explain to him, how it works, gives an estimate detailing the repairs, all we can do is speculate.

When he has a better Idea of the conditions, then we can expound on some additional advice in preserving the integrity of the dwelling, going forward.

At this point it's, if the dog hadn't stopped to ----, he may have caught the rabbit.


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## nealtw (Mar 1, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Until the OP actually gets someone to invite him under the house and takes a little time to explain to him, how it works, gives an estimate detailing the repairs, all we can do is speculate.
> 
> When he has a better Idea of the conditions, then we can expound on some additional advice in preserving the integrity of the dwelling, going forward.
> 
> At this point it's, if the dog hadn't stopped to ----, he may have caught the rabbit.



I think you are still missing the point.
This a DIY site where the OPs come and ask for advice, that can't be get a pro to look at it every time. Maybe some times that is the answer but seldom.

If you went to look at this house and went first to the floor in the first question and then went and stuck your head in the joists and seen the twisted one, What would you do next? And why didn't you tell the OP to do that.


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## nealtw (Mar 1, 2016)

butch23 said:


> the house probably is that old because the lumber looks to be true 2"x 10". the walls from what i can tell look like plaster ,also i noticed the old galvanized pipe under the house first i would take any screws and  hangers holding the pipe to the joist loose ,then measure at the top in between the 2 joists and cuts several 2x10 blocks that measurement and if you have any help take about a 24" 2X4 block and screw it to the joist you want to straighten and let someone pull on it while the block is drove in and continue this for 3 or 4 2x10 blocks after you get it as straight as you can, put some blocks in the opposite bay just to prevent bowing again .give this a try and talk someone in to helping you and it shouldn't take to long .good luck .butch23



I do not want to discourage you or Snoonyb from posting here, your experience is valuable and may be different than others, I would just encourage you to ask more questions.

I would much sooner see 2 or 3 people with experience asking questions and discuss the best practice for repairs.

So with that said  to the site.


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## oldognewtrick (Mar 1, 2016)

This is a DIY site and our mission is to help homeowners find viable solutions to issues that they may experience and give them the confidence to accomplish projects. We are also here to educate folks on proper installations when dealing with contractors so they can make informed and wise decisions when choosing who's going to work on their property.

We all have different life and work experiences and approach problems from different perspectives. Let's remember we are here to help others, not argue among ourselves. 

With this in mind we appreciate all who participate and share their time and knowledge at House Repair Talk!


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## Snoonyb (Mar 1, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I think you are still missing the point.
> This a DIY site where the OPs come and ask for advice, that can't be get a pro to look at it every time. Maybe some times that is the answer but seldom.



I understand that perfectly.

What I do not wish to indulge in, is a 15 or 20 page recital engaging an OP, who already said that he has limited knowledge in repair experience and ability. Who has already pondered the wisdom, because of that lack of experience, the wisdom in contacting a professional for an opinion, based upon conditions he is unable to accurately represent too us.

He has also asked if the repairs need to be accomplished sooner than later, which may imply that cost could be a concern.

He also appears to have a day job and would be indulging the speculation in the evenings.

The OP obtaining an opinion from a local contractor and then sharing that here can shorten the speculation by pages, allowing the specifics to be addressed.



nealtw said:


> If you went to look at this house and went first to the floor in the first question



I would make a mental note of it, note the separation, orientate the location of that wall in relation to the basement stairwell, don my coveralls, invite the owner to accompany me, locate the area of the wall, site down the floor joists, (if they are parallel), inspect the interior bearing point, then the perimeter bearing and probe both with an awl, all the while explaining my actions and what I had found.  



nealtw said:


> and then went and stuck your head in the joists and seen the twisted one, What would you do next? And why didn't you tell the OP to do that.



The only other action I would take, other than what I previously posted, would be to ascertain the viability of the perimeter sil.


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## nealtw (Mar 1, 2016)

This your first post to the thread

*Interesting bridge blocking.

Is there any discoloration on the rim joist that would indicate this is a resent event?

Because the dia. dimension of the joist twisted could be reflected in s slight lifting of the floor, are you sure there is a sag, and not a slight lift?

It appears to me that because there is no obvious signs of nails where the joist has deflected, the deflection may be the result of that row of nails having been missed.

I'd just cut a couple of 2X blocks, reflective of the deflection and place them between the deflected joist and the next joist where the dimension at the top of the joist are the narrowest.*

How does this fit with your last post.


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## Snoonyb (Mar 1, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I'd just cut a couple of 2X blocks, reflective of the deflection and place them between the deflected joist and the next joist where the dimension at the top of the joist are the narrowest.[/COLOR][/I][/B]
> 
> How does this fit with your last post.



You ask what I would do, and that's it.


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## nealtw (Mar 1, 2016)

OK then............


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## corman842 (Mar 1, 2016)

Hi all- Lively discussion since last I visited! I was able to look a little closer based on your responses, it appears that the joists are supposed to be sitting in joist pockets in the brick, and every joist in the house is properly seated in a joist pocket except the one in question. Does that mean that the wood on the end of that joist has rotted out? Any thoughts on what type of action should be taken here? I've attached a closer up image of the damaged joist as well as an image of one of the other joists in the house that aren't damaged. Thanks again for all your help! At the very least, if I have to bring someone in, I'll be more knowledgeable as I discuss the issue.


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## nealtw (Mar 1, 2016)

The joist will have to fixed or replaced but you do have a moisture problem that should be looked after sooner than later, as you could have mold issue.
The ceiling in that area should be pulled down and inspected for mold, perhaps by a pro. Then all the wood in that area needs to be inspected for rot, including the sub floor.


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## Snoonyb (Mar 1, 2016)

corman842 said:


> Hi all- Lively discussion since last I visited! I was able to look a little closer based on your responses, it appears that the joists are supposed to be sitting in joist pockets in the brick, and every joist in the house is properly seated in a joist pocket except the one in question. Does that mean that the wood on the end of that joist has rotted out? Any thoughts on what type of action should be taken here? I've attached a closer up image of the damaged joist as well as an image of one of the other joists in the house that aren't damaged. Thanks again for all your help! At the very least, if I have to bring someone in, I'll be more knowledgeable as I discuss the issue.



Thanks, that's better.

Is this joist under, in the relative proximity, of the wall with the crack?

The staining un the underside of the floor sheating and the top of the joist are indicators of water intrusion.

Can you take a picture of the other direction of the joist travel so we can see the next support point?


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## corman842 (Mar 2, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Thanks, that's better.
> 
> Is this joist under, in the relative proximity, of the wall with the crack?
> 
> ...



It is, the crack should be directly above the area of this joist, running off to the left from there. Attached are shots of the next two joists over, which would sit near the crack in the wall. This is also right under where water used to pool in the alleyway until we redirected the gutters to run out of the alleyway and into the back yard at the request of the next door neighbor as a part of the sale of their house. I felt the area all around the affected joist, and it feels totally dry, so I'm hoping the water intrusion issue is resolved? I'll have to check after the next rainstorm as well.


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## Snoonyb (Mar 2, 2016)

corman842 said:


> It is, the crack should be directly above the area of this joist, running off to the left from there. Attached are shots of the next two joists over, which would sit near the crack in the wall. This is also right under where water used to pool in the alleyway until we redirected the gutters to run out of the alleyway and into the back yard at the request of the next door neighbor as a part of the sale of their house. I felt the area all around the affected joist, and it feels totally dry, so I'm hoping the water intrusion issue is resolved? I'll have to check after the next rainstorm as well.



Thanks again; How are you coming with a picture of the twisted joist, in the other direction?


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## corman842 (Mar 2, 2016)

Sorry, misunderstood what you were looking for. Here it is. The twisted joist is in the center of the photo, the one running along the edge of the photo is the joist that runs along the stairwell.


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## nealtw (Mar 2, 2016)

What is the ceiling material in the first pictures?  Wet black stuff


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## Snoonyb (Mar 2, 2016)

corman842 said:


> Sorry, misunderstood what you were looking for. Here it is. The twisted joist is in the center of the photo, the one running along the edge of the photo is the joist that runs along the stairwell.



Thanks; On the other side of the twisted joist, between the twisted joist and the stairwell double joist, can you see what appears to be the end of a joist near the masonry wall?

If not, can you tell by looking on the other side of the masonry wall where the next bearing point for the joist is?

How thick is the masonry wall that the twisted joist is crossing over?


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## corman842 (Apr 6, 2016)

Hi guys! Thought I'd just give an update on this. I ended up getting a contractor to come look at the issue, he cut away the rotted wood, took down the closet that sat below these joists that I wasn't using to begin with, and sistered the joists that were damaged. So far, so good. In terms of cause, everything and has remained dry. It did not appear that it would be caused by the pooling in the alleyway in his estimation, he thinks it was likely due to discharge from a floorstanding A/C over the summer, though couldn't be sure. Hopefully no more issues! Thanks so much for your guidance, it helped me sound more informed while I spoke with the contractor, and helped me reach the decision to involve a professional. Attached is a photo of the repair.


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## inspectorD (Apr 7, 2016)

Thanks for getting back to us to see what the final outcome was!:beer:
On to the next project!!


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