# gas fire place redoing



## condoowner (Oct 6, 2012)

hi!..

not sure if this thread should be in the decoration section of the forum or here so I'm sorry if it has to be moved..

so I have decided to upgrade my natural gas fireplace by redoing the box containing the fireplace insert.  the current box is a drywall construction and like most of this condominium unit it was build in a hurry and is not square at all..  plus it looked kinda bad since it was painted very poorly.

so I have started by removing the ugly wood molding that was installed around the insert.  this molding was exactly the same as what's installed around the door frames.  by removing these wood moldings I have noticed that the paint they used was strange and with only a small putty knife I was able to peel most of the paint in large 3 to 4 in chunks.. the paint looked a bit rubbery and very thick.  underneath it is all covered with drywall mud.  

I will be posting some pictures tomorrow since my camera is out of order for tonight.

I would like to install a modern clean looking material instead of simply repainting over the drywall..  I am thinking about rocks or something like that.

anybody can point me to some ideas and most importantly what should I do next?? can I treat this like a kitchen backsplash??
thanks!!!


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## nealtw (Oct 6, 2012)

Don't know about the paint, but we  do these boxes all the time usually cover with man made stone. Looks good. Some rock guys will install over drywall but most times we cover the box with plywood or 7/16 osb for solid backing for the stone. But no wood should be installed for 4 inches above the firebox so we just put backerboard in that center section.
There is lots on the market.
http://bakermasonry.com/index.php?option=com_joomgallery&func=detail&id=222&Itemid=53#joomimg


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## CallMeVilla (Oct 6, 2012)

I prefer using backer board for the entire area to be tiled or covered with stone.  Makes for excellent adhesion and fire resistance.

I suggest you look for design ideas in current home & decorator magazines.  Depending on the decor of your place, a flat surface is minimal but there are a lot of decorative trim molds which upgrade the look easily.  If you have good tile/stone skills, this might be the way to go.

Here are two pics to start you off  . . .  Notice one is simple but the other is interesting.  IF you want to put a TV over the fireplace, this is the time to build a niche and run power, HDMI wiring, and anything else you might need.


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## condoowner (Oct 6, 2012)

hey guys!  many many thanks for replying!  so to start off, Im wondering if I should strip the current box down and rebuild a new one?  the current drywall box lacks square-ness and because of that the left side is angled and as a result the fireplace insert seems to be inserted deeper on the left side than the right side..

those idiots even cut the laminated floor to match the crooked box!!!!!

should I expect a standard 2x4 frame underneath this drywall box?  if so wouldn't it be easier cleaner and faster to start fresh with either backerboard or osb than trying to repair and compensate for the poor craftsmanship of the builder?


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## nealtw (Oct 6, 2012)

If it is that bad I would remove the drywall and have a look at what you have. Some times it doesn't take much to straighten out a structure. Added solid blocking to hang a tv and cable and outlet at the same time. While your in there, there should be drywall on the wall behind the fireplace.
With osb you would need wire mesh and scatch coat for stone. Maybe the backer would safe a step?


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## condoowner (Oct 6, 2012)

it's just that because the fireplace is flush mounted on the right side and due to the crooked structure is deeper on the left side.  if I install backerboard and rocks it will probably be an additional 1,5 to 2 inches thick which will make the fireplace even deeper in the structure..

any good?

so let's say I keep the drywall, I fix the structure and now it looks great (shape wise) I only install the backerboard on top of the drywall???   screwed in the studs?


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## CallMeVilla (Oct 6, 2012)

In my experience, you may find metal studs, not wood.  This complicates the restructuring a bit (different screws) because there are no horizontal blocks to support weignt.

Without better pics, it is hard to advise you.  Stripping the drywall would allow you to fur the problems, regain square, and add blocks for support of a TV or whatever.  As I tell people, "It's only drywall."  (And the condo association is cool with this kind of construction?)

The floor bothers me because it is what it is  --  you don't want to mess it up more.  However, if you get the fireplace true, you can also add a small hearth matching the tile/stone on top of the flooring to hide the bad cut.  Would that work for you?

Just thinking on the fly.


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## condoowner (Oct 6, 2012)

> And the condo association is cool with this kind of construction?



Yes, as per our condo agreements, the fireplace is part of my property.  What I must not touch is the flue vent and the gas line.  Anyways, I would not touch these since its mostly a safety hazard.

Talking about these lines, would normally the fireplace be just inserted in the box or would it be fastened somehow to the structure?  I am pretty sure I happened to slightly move the insert (maybe a quarter inch) when I pushed on it to see if it was anchored...

In the end, if its just a box with studs (metal or wood) and some paneling, and there are no connections to the fireplace insert, I feel pretty confident to be able to rebuild/straighten this up.

I will drill a 2inch hole on the side and insert a flashlight to see whats inside and how its built.  Then Ill have an idea of the construction.

For the floor, yes its a shame but the quarter round that was installed on the baseboard on each sides of the insert covered the mess and you couldn't tell.   I am not sure I want to play with the flooring because I have zero experience in that and it would probably result in having the whole floor repaired or worst, replaced ($$$$$)...

I am thinking the rocks and panels (whatever they will be) will be thick enough to cover the floor mess but like I said, the fireplace insert will appear to be deeper in the "box" because of the thicker walls.. Any cosmetic issues with this?  I will look on the web for decoration ideas as well...

Attached is a picture showing what I have as much as I can tell for now..  The crooked portion is shown on the left side and is exaggerated for clarity.


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## condoowner (Oct 6, 2012)

So I poked a hole on the side and got the flashlight in...

Its a all wood construction with standard 2x4 lumber studs and 1/2in drywall.. nothing fancy.

So in your experience, would it be easier to:

-strip it down and rebuild with backer board

-fix the current box and install  backer board on top of drywall

???


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## CallMeVilla (Oct 6, 2012)

Good on you for the 2x4 construction.  You should strip the drywall, reframe as needed to achieve square, then re-sheet with backer board to accept the tile/stone.  You will have to re-install quarter round for the floor as needed.

I see not big issues at this point.  Just remember to use proper backer board screws and set them flush.  Do you know how to cut backer???  Some guys use knives.  I prefer a cheap skillsaw with a cheap cement cutting blade  . . . also use an angle grinder with a diamond blade.  Use fiber tape on edges, corners.  Tile/stone as usual.

You might be on your way!

PS  What about the TV build-in?


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## nealtw (Oct 6, 2012)

Look for screws on each side of the fireplace near the front, they will be black, I would just remove the drywall and see what you have. You can always do something with the size to hide floor problems. You could rebuild the box a little smaller to allow for rock to line up with fireplace, if the fireplace can't be moved out a little.


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## condoowner (Oct 6, 2012)

hey guys

so being maybe a bit crazy and adventurous I went ahead and stripped down the drywall.  then I noticed the whole thing was shaking and not strong at all... probably the worst framing job ever done..  they nailed everything crooked, they used scrap wood shims to shim the lumbers when not long enough to be nailed to the others, not a single bar was straight and true... 

anyways I demolished everything!..  now I have the fireplace insert standing on the concrete floor with next to nothing around it..   on the picture below you will see some leftovers of the wood box but tomorrow they will be gone.

since the fireplace is loose on the floor, and since I will need to build a new box, I have some questions:

should I bolt or screw the fireplace to the concrete floor?

should I use steel or wood frame?

should I glue or screw or nail to the concrete floor?

can I use only backerboard or do I need drywall or plywood underneath?

finally I have never installed backerboard and worked with concrete slabs..  i also have never worked with steel studs..

can you give me advices and how-to?? 

thanks!!!!


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## condoowner (Oct 7, 2012)

so I went ahead and started drilling the concrete to install the concrete screws but after 2 screws I noticed something funny.  basically after 1 1/4" while putting pressure on the drill I feel a big relief as if I was going through the concrete slab and into something much softer like wood or an air space..

no sure if it's normal. don't the floors are supposed to be 4" thick in Canada???

I tried inserting a small steel rod into the hole to feel if it's open ended but as far as I can tell it's hard and feels strong.


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## CallMeVilla (Oct 8, 2012)

You may have a light weight concrete floated floor.  Are you planning on using TAPCON screws?


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## condoowner (Oct 8, 2012)

I am using cobratap concrete screws (the blue ones) 3/16"x1 1/4"...  is that ok??  See picture.

Also for my personal education, what is a light weight floating floor? They just poured a small layer of concrete over the floor to act as a barrier against fire & noise???  If so whats underneath?  Am i gonna drill in a water line or worst the gas line for the fireplace???

Finally when i removed the conctactors concrete nails some of them pulled fairly easy but 2 made a mess and wrecked the concrete around th nail hole.  Its what i believe civil engineers call cone failure...  how do i screw close to that???


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## CallMeVilla (Oct 8, 2012)

Sure, those screws will work.  They are comparable to TAPCONs.  Here is a video that show a hand poured light weight floor.  Sometimes the cement is mixed with foam stuff  . . .  Strong but light floor found in many applications:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mhrGshlguI&feature=related[/ame]

The subfloor will hold the screws but I think your pilot hole should be small, not large.  Screw down adequately, to feel, but do not over-drive.  Since your new structure is not load bearing, you should be fine.

Dos this help?


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## condoowner (Oct 8, 2012)

> Dos this help?



Very much so!! But what about the craters left by the old nails?  Can I drill just beside where its still flat?  Any chance of having too many holes in the same area and having cracks in the future?

Ill finish drilling and hope I wont hit anything in the subfloor like pipes, wires, gas line.. ouch!  Would the gas line run in the floor by code or run in the outside wall??


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## CallMeVilla (Oct 8, 2012)

Another tip  . . . use construction adhesive (PL Premium) on the underside of your floor plate to adhere them to the concrete (nice sine wave pattern the length of the wood).  Yes, move the pilot hole away from the crater and re-drill.  Space your holes about every 12" - 18" and you should be fine.  Remember - you are not supporting a 2nd story on this wood, just some backer board and tile/stone.

Go for it!


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## nealtw (Oct 8, 2012)

The area behind should have been drywalled, all of it. so close that up before building your new box.


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## condoowner (Oct 8, 2012)

So ive drilled and installed the concrete anchors.  For now all sole plates are installed and the left side of the structure is done.  So far so good!  Tomorrow i will finalize the right side and normaly the structure should be done..  next will be the backerboard.

I will post some time soon with some pictures 

Btw the floor *has* to be a lightweight floating floor..  last hole i drilled about a quarter inch longer than the screw and next thing i knew the hole was about 3 in deep!!  Must be a cavity of some sort.


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## condoowner (Oct 8, 2012)

nealtw said:


> The area behind should have been drywalled, all of it. so close that up before building your new box.



On the last picture you see a drywall section laying against the wall on the right end of the photo..  that chunk goes where you see the pink insulation around the chimney.

I reinstalled it.  All that is left now are small gaps where you see the insulation
  I can post a pic tomorrow.


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## nealtw (Oct 9, 2012)

If you have heat in the floor I would think twice about drilling into the concrete, just becuase the last guy got a way with it,.


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## CallMeVilla (Oct 9, 2012)

Yes, condo-guy, that "void" is the floor joist space  . . . if you had gotten lucky, you might have hit a joist on edge for a solid hold-down.  No big.  Just glue and screw but do not over-drive.

You're doing great  . . . steady, careful, informed, asking when not sure.  EXCELLENT.


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## condoowner (Oct 9, 2012)

nealtw said:


> If you have heat in the floor I would think twice about drilling into the concrete, just becuase the last guy got a way with it,.



We dont have heated floors.. i wish but were not that rich !! 

Probably is a floor joist.  I have taken every precautions to see whst csme out of the hole. Except concrete dust nothing else, no wood chips no steel particles ...

Anyways the sole plates are installed.  I glued them with PL Premium construction glue and tightened the blue screws to a snug but not until i sstrip the concrete...

I cant move these plates once the glue has dried.. i would need a sledgehammer or a prybar to remove them.

Time will tell but im comfident there is no damage to the floor...


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## condoowner (Oct 10, 2012)

So the steel frame is built!  See the pics.  Looks nice for my first framing job..

Then next week will be installing the concrete panels (backer board) and prepare for the stone job.... I am still searching for a style and finishing..  I mean molding around the fireplace opening and the top of the box... At least the box will be built and ready for the cosmetics..

One question for now:  There were 2 triangular steel brackets with teeth that were bolted on the fireplace.  I looked in the assembly and instruction manual, no reference to them but they are drawn on every picture.  I think they are safety "stoppers" so people installing the fireplace dont stack-up wood or drywall too close to the fireplace top.

Am I right?  I am asking because I had to remove them  to install the top frame member.  I can rebolt them but not in the same holes.  Will there be carbon monoxide coming out of the holes if I leave them open??


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## nealtw (Oct 10, 2012)

They were there for those of us that build with wood, so we don't apply wood any closer to the top of the firepbox. I would leave them right where you have them in the photo for the next guy to ask question. You should have finished the drywall where it is missing, it is a code thing as well as a safety thing. Especially important in a multi- family building


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## condoowner (Oct 10, 2012)

> You should have finished the drywall where it is missing, it is a code thing as well as a safety thing. Especially important in a multi- family building



There is an opening of about the width of the vertical members laying against the wall for them to be screwed to the wall studs, and about 6" wide band not covered at the top.  The drywall is exactly like it was built by the contractor in 2005.  I can try to insert a drywall piece behind the top horizontal steel member that is against the wall, if its a code issue.

If not, then what else can I do?


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## nealtw (Oct 11, 2012)

Ya, it really needs to be fire stopped everytime it goes thru wall or ceiling.
I found you a manual so you can be your own expert on these things.
http://www.regency-fire.com/Files/Manuals/P90-918-525.aspx


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## CallMeVilla (Oct 11, 2012)

Nicely done Neal  . . . pages 11 and 12 are particularly important.  Hitting your LIKE button!


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## condoowner (Oct 11, 2012)

Yeah the PDF was interesting.  Thanks for the info.  I wish my fireplace's manual was that detailled... 

I will install a firewall behind the fireplace so no chances of fire happens.  After, all safety first!

The pages 11 & 12 clearly explains the standoff requirements and the clearances that have to be maintained.  Since I am using steel studs and the finished product will be 100% non-combustible, the requirements are less stringent.

All I need to fix is the back wall and I should be in good shape.  What worries me is the other condos... They are all built the same.

When people renovate these things, do they usually get them inspected by a fire dept or inspector?  If so I should make arrangements ASAP..


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## CallMeVilla (Oct 11, 2012)

Don't go there  . . . do it right and be done with it. Close it up and roast marshmallows.


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## notmrjohn (Oct 16, 2012)

Villa really wants to watch TV. Flat screen TVs are incredibly light, wall brackets to hang one inside a cabinet are inexpensive, but get your power and cable in before you get backer board up.

if you didn't get a permit B4 starting don't get an official inspection. You may find that you should have gotten a permit and now have to pay permit fee plus penalty.

Your insurance company may provide a general home safety inspection of your property. Call and ask.  Possibly rates could go up if they don't like the fire place.


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## nealtw (Oct 16, 2012)

I always wonder about a TV over a fireplace, the heat thing. But everyone is doing it.
One trick is to use vacuum pipe to run a chace from the back of the mantle to the side of the box. For cables and such.


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## CallMeVilla (Oct 16, 2012)

Well, the cool thing is a flat screen over the mantle  ...  so here is what I did in one house....

1.  Cut into wall and ran power with a properly positioned outlet using closest receptacle for the feed.
2.  Making sure I had at least 6" separation from the AC ROMEX, I ran TWO HDMI cables to the niche where the electronics were to be located.  NEVER run comunication cable paralle and in close proximity to AC power  ...  it can cause picture and sound distortion.  If you have to cross the cables, do so on a perpendicular.
3.  Fortunately, the wall studs were well located, so attaching the TV bracket was easy.  Absent the proper location, a 2x6 horizontal nailer is the best bet.
4.  As to heat  ....  The fireplace surround was a zero clearance model so there was no need for an add-on chase.  I simply stapled the ROMEX to the studs and used cable staples for the HDMI (they do not crimp).
5.  Fixing and texturing the drywall finished the job.

Everything turned out excellent!  GOOD LUCK


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## thomask (Dec 3, 2012)

CallMeVilla said:


> Well, the cool thing is a flat screen over the mantle  ...  so here is what I did in one house....
> Everything turned out excellent!  GOOD LUCK



Question are those niches up high for speakers?

IS that man made rock? 

Very nice design work there!


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## condoowner (Oct 8, 2013)

Reviving this thread after a while on idle! 

I am about to cap the metal stud box I built for the future mantel.  Its getting mildly cold here in Montreal in the morning so Ive decided to prep the fireplace for upcoming winter by cleaning it with a Vacuum, etc... I have never used the fireplace since I moved in (almost 2 years ago) but I knew it was working because when I purchased the house, the previous owner had it on. Also, there are signs of usage..

One day, I started the pilot light around noon, waited for a few minutes to make sure everything was fine and stable, then I left the house.  I came back around 4pm.  When I entered the house, I was greeted by a mild (not so strong but very noticeable) smell of what appeared to be natural gas.  I immediately shut off the pilot and closed the main yellow gas valve. I opened all windows and patio doors to evacuate the smell as soon as possible.  The smell seemed to come out of the top louver.  I smelled inside the bottom cavity where the "equipment" is located (gas valves, thermocouple, pilot valve, etc) but nothing there.  Nothing behind the fireplace, and nothing inside the walls.  

I then called a gas appliance technician and booked a service call.  He came a few days later to look at the fireplace but didn't find anything wrong.  He brought a natural gas detector with him (sniffer) but the device didn't register anything (literally 0ppm).  To him, the smell coming out of the top louver is not natural gas.  To me, whats coming out of the louver smells like garlic or maybe like moly grease.. Difficult to explain but it doesn't smell like burning dust or heat at all...

He did a thorough cleanup and tested everything.  He even used a BBQ lighter to find out if there were gas leaks anywhere in the equipment.  According to him, its totally safe to do so, since there are no oxygen in the gas line, as well as the gas pressure forces the flame out, so no chance of fire returning to the main or exploding.. I am not convinced... I must say, I was on "alert" 

Anyways, after about half hour looking at the fireplace, he admitted that he couldn't find anything.  Other thing he said, there would be no chance of some gas not burning inside the firebox as the pilot flame would burn any residual gas..  The only chance for natural gas to leak and be smelled is from the control equipment and gas pipes at the bottom of the fireplace where there are no flame to burn the gas, but then we would smell it coming from there..

I noticed that when the fireplace was really running (real flames) the "gas" smell seemed to considerably reduce... Almost to nothing.  The tech had some gas vented on purpose to have me confirm it was what I smelled.  It was, but much stronger.

I has a few people coming over and they confirmed they can smell something like natural gas.  According to the tech, it is absolutely safe to use the appliance.  So I tried to leave the pilot on for a few days, and purchased a good natural gas+CO detector and installed it right on top of the fireplace.  It didnt register anything.

Long story short:

Gas-like smells coming out of top louver ONLY when on pilot
Sniffers and detectors not reading anything
No gas smell when real flames
No apparent or detectable leaks anywhere
Abnormal smell confirmed by several people (*including neighbors having the exact same appliance confirming my fireplace release a smell that theirs dont*)

What next?????  Everything seems to contradict.  I must admit, I am clueless... Should I rely on equipment or my (our) nose(s)?


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## nealtw (Oct 8, 2013)

Just a guess but when you have a full flame the draft takes the gasses up the chimney. When you just have a pilot light maybe there isn't enough draft or something else is drawing air. Try leaving a window open near the fireplace and see if that make a difference.


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## condoowner (Oct 9, 2013)

nealtw said:


> Just a guess but when you have a full flame the draft takes the gasses up the chimney. When you just have a pilot light maybe there isn't enough draft or something else is drawing air. Try leaving a window open near the fireplace and see if that make a difference.




The draft takes the gasses up the chimney?  The firebox shouldn't be fully isolated from the outside of the fireplace?  By gasses, do you mean carbon monoxide and other combustion gasses????  These are fatal and extremely dangerous..  

CO detectors have not picked up anything either...  I stuck the explosive gasses ensor and CO sensor right on the louver where the smells comes from , none have picked up anything..


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## nealtw (Oct 9, 2013)

By gasses I ment anything that is intended to go up the chimney. They add the smell to nat gas and maybe it is heavier than other products that do go up the chimney. Like I said, I am guessing, take it for what its worth.


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## condoowner (Nov 8, 2013)

OK  back to this thread for a while now! 

The smell issue is mostly gone now.  I am thinking, since the fireplace has been functioning automatically for a few weeks now, that the heat must have helped the gaskets of the two top traps to replace and stopped whatever pinhole leak may have been present...  Who knows.  Anyway for me its case closed until I smell something again. 

Ive got 2 gas nmonitors on each side of the fireplace, so if there's something harmfull, they will warn me.

Now to the other questions:

I am ready to cap the fireplace box with the metal studs I have installed last winter...  The box is very strong as I was careful to build it properly.  Now I need to cap the box, and having access to cheap Durock panels, I am leaning toward concrete boards to cap the fireplace.

Ive never worked with these before, but worked with hundreds of drywall panels...

Other than special screws:

Do I need to predrill in the cement boards?

How spaced the screws should be?  Like every 8 or 10 inch?
Do I need to finish the corners like drywall corners are finished? I am refering to the sheet metal angle piece drywallers put on the corners..

I intend to install tile on the fireplace. Probably 24x24 hardened & enameled porcelain slate.  I am scared of the contraction/expansion the fireplace box will see over the next years due to the heat and cooling off cycles...  Should I put Ditra or something similar to uncouple the movement of the cement boards and avoid the tiles from falling off or worst breaking?  what about the grout lines?


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## nealtw (Nov 8, 2013)

We build the box out of 2x4s and wrap it with 1/2" plywood or osb and leave the area just above the unit for concrete board, some builders just use drywall to wrap the box. When the unit is new it comes with little tryangles of tin placed on top, anything above that is ok to use wood. No need to fill corners or joints.


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