# Framing Wall - Poor Workmanship or Acceptable Practise



## RedBaron (Feb 9, 2014)

I have a new house being built and I think the framing on the garage wall is poorly done. When complaining I was told by the developer that nobody guarantees 16" on centre studs. Which is fine due to size of rooms and all but I have never heard or seen the mis-spaced stud in the middle of the wall. If you look at the photo you can see two studs close together on either side of them the spacing is 16". This is a brand new build I don't think this is good practise or even acceptable. Sure maybe it may never make a difference in the long run but I am just curious to know if people think this is acceptable common practise? Would a quality framer worth his weight do something like this?


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## kok328 (Feb 9, 2014)

I wouldn't worry about 1 extra stud in the wall.  It's probably there to catch the seam in the siding due to being off measurement.  Is it in the drawings?


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## RedBaron (Feb 9, 2014)

Not really worried about an extra stud but the drywall seams won't work out since 16" centres won't carry down the wall. Plus it's more a question on workmanship. I think its poor workmanship I want to know if I'm justified.


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## nealtw (Feb 9, 2014)

In fact the 16" layout is done on the outside of the wall and many framers start the layout from both ends and end with an odd spot in the center of a long wall. They do that so they don't end with a 3" cavity it the corner that would be hard to insulate. So this is a sample of thoughtful framing. Drywallers deal with this everyday.


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## inspectorD (Feb 10, 2014)

This would be the last thing I worry about. As I look at these pictures I see steel I beams supported with wood framing. A big Non conforming issue in any engineers book. How are they attached to the beams? and what kind of weights are they supporting. What is holding this place up diagonally?
You have a big issue there, I would call in an engineer.
Just my :2cents:


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## bud16415 (Feb 10, 2014)

I also noticed the steel beams. The one supporting the structure above the garage door it&#8217;s hard to see what&#8217;s holding it on the ends. Is that floor area supported by the large beam and cantilevered. It makes me wonder why there is a beam so close to the end of the building.  I&#8217;m by far no expert but what I look for in framing is straight vertical lines where studs and joists and the studs above or rafters / trusses all line up. I watched one builder and he snapped lines across the deck both directions and every stud fell on those lines across the whole house and when they moved to the second floor the lines moved up. I don&#8217;t know if that&#8217;s normal building practice but it sure made for a neat looking job. 

I see Neil&#8217;s point and the close studs don&#8217;t bother me. If you go outside and look I bet you have about a 36&#8221; sheet centered on the 2 close studs. I would much rather have that than a 12&#8221; piece at the corner. 

I don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s kosher with connecting steel to wood but it just looks to be sitting on top. I would expect some kind of fabricated L clip with ears that would bolt thru the stacked up post as InspectorD pointed out to give some side loading.


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## nealtw (Feb 10, 2014)

Come on guys: Red is already scared of all this stuff. The beam is the front of the house with a deck at a lower level or a section of roof out front. The 2x6 is bolted to the top. Some engineers call for lag bolts down into the studs and some just say it is locked in place with the floor and sheeting in the walls. Those beams where called for by an engineer who will be inspecting them later. The sheeting inpector and engineer may have something to say about the sheeting standing on end but maybe not.


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## inspectorD (Feb 10, 2014)

nealtw said:


> Those beams where called for by an engineer who will be inspecting them later. The sheeting inpector and engineer may have something to say about the sheeting standing on end but maybe not.



You dont know that Neil, as a guy who has inspected over 10000 homes and most new construction, I see this all the time. And the engineer does not come back to a job unless they are paid by the homeowner. The Engineer relies on the building official to look to see the drawing where followed... and I can tell you, it never happens here in CT, or other parts of the country. 

He has to be his own advocate, and get someone who knows what is supposed to be there.
Funny thing in the US of A... you can't sue a Building official... and they always have the last word. But they are not as qualified as an Engineer... get the drift.:help:


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## nealtw (Feb 10, 2014)

True enough, I don't know the rules there. I haven't seen a designer ask for a a beam over a garage door. I took that as a hint that an engineer was involved. Most cities don't get injto sizing beams they just tell you to get an engineer. If that is what happened then the city may inpect that work, which would mean they have a copy of his report Which is usually another set of plans that detail his changes, they will have both his stamp and the cities stamp on them.
You guys have missed the one thing that drives me nuts. That is the draft under the sill plate caused by shims, he should have checked the concrete and cut the studs to fit.


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## CallMeVilla (Feb 10, 2014)

Good catch on the shims, Neal ... really sharp eye.  What were they thinking?

I think the stud spacing got thrown off by the 6x stud support for the beam.  I would not call that bad workmanship ... just field adaptation.

But shimming the plate??? OMG ...


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## nealtw (Feb 10, 2014)

But shimming the plate??? OMG ...
Not sure it's that bad, happens some times, he did shim directly under each stud, caulking under the edge of the plate will stop the draft.
We would have had to put a double and hangers for the cantilever but if that was called for it will fail and he will be butting them in. Rob should be checking the plans!!


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## inspectorD (Feb 10, 2014)

Upon further evaluation of this one picture... (please take more)
It does look like Neils eye (and the rest of us) missed that there may well be a steel post under the garage door beam.... this was the one that had me most worried. 
And as long as it IS connected to the foundation with BOLTS... it should be good to go...:banana::banana:


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## nealtw (Feb 10, 2014)

In fact I have been doing this work for a while and have never had to install a steel post and I'm in an eathquake zone, but our newest code calls for stress walls where you have to add blocks to the wall ever four feet and nail the crap out of it, two or three or four exterior and three or four walls interior on each floor. New codes for exterior doors is said to be so tough that most of the national brands are just leaving the province.


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## CallMeVilla (Feb 10, 2014)

We have all probably done moment frames ... but I don't see the framing here which suggests a steel post for that kind of structure.  To me, it looks like a wooden support for the steel beam.


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## RedBaron (Feb 10, 2014)

Don't have many pictures but here is one from a few days earlier. That small section between joists is just covered with a thin strip of OSB only crossing those two studs. There is a bedroom over the garage.

To be honest I just wanted to see if this is they way it is done these days. Being a DIYer I have done work in quite a few houses generally 1970's era and have never come across any wall that wasn't spaced 16" on centre for its entire length except at the ends of a wall.


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## nealtw (Feb 10, 2014)

That does look odd but usually we would lay the sheets on their sides with a half inch gap between the upper and lower sheets and the upper and lower joints don't line up. But I have seen plywood put up like this. As far as the layout is concerned , the drywall always misses layout by six inches at the corner because of the corner and if you move the 3 inch space to the end front or back you would find the there would be a cavity that could not be insulated so the framer started from each end meeting in the middle. I would also suggest this may have been dione in a hurry to get it ready for the delivery of the beams. Even if your garage isn't going to be insulated the framer would have done this out of habbit, good habit. If you have jogs in or out on the house you may find the layout starts with odd measurements. Framers try to get floor joists directly above studs and studs directly above joists. Missing is not reason for failure as the double plate on the wall is there for that reason. It is just an attempt to make it look pretty. If they had layed the sheeting it's side and you didn't have a cantiliver above the stud they could have been left it out and they could have moved the space to the front section and just left the stud out without a problem.
As we use one person to do all the layout on a house that odd measurement would have ended up at the post with beam above and you would not have noticed. This looks like one guy started at the back and  one guy started at the front and that is where they met. I would spend more time thinking about the wedges under the wall as if they are just wedge cut peices they could put side presure on the wall and the should be flat peices that support the sill for the full width.


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## inspectorD (Feb 11, 2014)

CallMeVilla said:


> We have all probably done moment frames ... but I don't see the framing here which suggests a steel post for that kind of structure.  To me, it looks like a wooden support for the steel beam.



Well, if you look at his picture..I hope he puts up another of the garage door beam.. you can see a space between the 2 pieces of wood. It also looks like a shadow in there that could be a post...Gosh I love guessing games.:rofl:


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## oldognewtrick (Feb 11, 2014)

inspectorD said:


> Gosh I love guessing games.:rofl:




Ok, how many fingers am I holding up?


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## bud16415 (Feb 11, 2014)

I didn&#8217;t have a problem with the close studs as it allowed for a full sheet in both corners and that is where you get a good deal of your lateral strength. I wouldn&#8217;t like that sliver of sheathing at all. And I really wouldn&#8217;t like that little piece of bottom plate stuck in there. My dad used to call that a &#8220;Dutchman&#8221;. I would have thought with the framing working out like that they should have cut the last sheet short so the strip would have spanned 3 studs. Likewise the bottom plate had to be joined someplace but I personally wouldn&#8217;t want a piece just stuck in that short.
Neil brings up a great point about all the shims and if you look at the second photo all the weight on that beam post is sitting on 2 shims. Neil pointed out how the double top plate spreads out the load and the bottom plate also has to distribute the load over the block. The shims cause point loading I would think. 
I don&#8217;t think the reason for keeping a straight line up thru the structure studs, joists, studs, rafters etc. is just a good idea as far as appearance. The job of the double plate IMO isn&#8217;t to be a beam as much as a method of having continuous band without breaks in it because the joints are overlapped especially in the corners. If you compare the top plate to what we do over a window or door in terms of a header with wood and plywood on edge that&#8217;s designed to be a beam and it&#8217;s really doing the same thing as the double top plate is being asked to do when a bearing stud is coming down midway on it. I know there is a rim joist also acting as a beam. I&#8217;m not a professional and I&#8217;m sure it might not make a noticeable difference in the finished structure but when I see it done lined up it always looks impressive. 
Not knowing a lot about framing and trying to learn here, why did they switch direction of the floor joists for that last 4 feet before the outside wall? My other question is why isn&#8217;t that last long joist that the short ones tee into not at least a double? It seems that one should be doubled up to replace the ones not there just like you would on a stairway opening. The short ones don&#8217;t require a hanger? 

To the OP please don&#8217;t take my post as an expert opinion I&#8217;m someone like you who has done a little framing and trying to learn and question also.


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## nealtw (Feb 11, 2014)

Bud, the joists turned are for a cantilever out over the wall they should be hangered to a double , but that should fail on inspection. Your idea of the suds ubder rafters dosn't work as the trusses are 24" on center and the framer won't know exactly where the land until there are delivered, Usually you get one every 48" unless it is a complex roof, then all bets are off. We did one in Dec. with three dormers. Each dormer needs a gable, there was no standard layout for the entire house. You just make sure there is backing for the drywall at every corner and then they are on there own.


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## CallMeVilla (Feb 11, 2014)

While we are dissecting the structure ... I did a blow up of the post and OMG !!  Have you ever seen a wedge in a structural post?  I mean really ?  This IS a workmanship issue.  Somebody gang cut the studs then made up for it elsewhere along the wall ... but NOT on the point load post.

Tell me I am wrong about this ...


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## nealtw (Feb 11, 2014)

Is it ugly? yes
Will it pass? yes


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## bud16415 (Feb 11, 2014)

When I look up in his second photo I see the rim capping off those sideways joists that&#8217;s why I asked to me it looks like that falls right on the double top plate. But I see that&#8217;s blocking now. They were in a hurry I now see they put the house wrap on before adding in the extra stud or the strip of sheathing.

Neil are you guys mostly doing 2x6 walls on 16&#8221; centers or 2x8? I can see with trusses and different center distances the pattern will run and the dormers and all that. The lower you go on a building the more weight the structure is seeing. Still seems on a two story place I would like to see them lined up. But if you can&#8217;t you can&#8217;t.  My old houses line up but that&#8217;s because they are balloon framed, ha. 

In his first photo I thought the big I beam was to carry the load as a cantilever out over the door to the smaller I beam, but the second photo shows they stop on the big beam and then short ones must go the span to the front. 

Villa that&#8217;s the point loading I was talking about before in my question.


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## nealtw (Feb 11, 2014)

Bud the wedge or block does pick up most of the four studs that carry the beam, the king stud dosn't do much.
We would have to have a sheeting inpection before the house wrap went on, but that is different in places.
The front of the garage here is likely a vinyl covered deck which should be dropped 6" below the floor level which makes it hard to put a lvl or microlam beam in so they went with steel as with a wider flange they can keep the height to min. to make room for the garage door.
2x6 on outside wall 16" on center is standard for houses, 2x4 interior except for wet walls and some bearing walls. The higher you go that might change like a four story apartment building might have 2x8 12" on center on the ground floor. Good luck keeping studs lined up when that changes as you go up the building.


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## RedBaron (Feb 11, 2014)

First off thanks for all the information helps when dealing with the builder

Another question how high above the door should a header be or better question how high is it allowed to be over the door? Picture is a little dark just took it tonight when I was out.


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## nealtw (Feb 11, 2014)

Looks like your builder was doing everything he could to get the house closed up for the weatrher. You will see header up down anywhere. We always put it at the top like this and then frame down to window or door. The framer should come back and fill this in with blocks and a sill, maybe that's just a temp door.
On custom built houses the builder is always pushing the owner to make changes, that's where some of them make the big bucks! Framers get sick of ripping thing out and changing them so some times they just leave out details like this until all the crap settles.


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## CallMeVilla (Feb 13, 2014)

The framing is specified by the prints.  The call out for the door should be obvious based on the rough-in measurements.  I put the header where it needs to be directly above the door and fill-in the difference up to the top plate with cripples as necessary (see pic).

Your builder tossed a header into the framing high enough to clear the door ... but now he has to back-fill the gap.  Can he do it?  Sure.  Is it how you're supposed to do it?  Nope.


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## nealtw (Feb 14, 2014)

Villa; That looks good in all the books and some do it that way and on the states side you see it more than you do here. That's not what you see when you have a crew that can put up a house in days not weeks. The problem with that is just speed, you will have jack studs to fit an eighty inch door, different for outswing doors window may or may not be at the same height or at various heights. Up here most are into production framing and yes this should have been filled in at the time the wall was built.
Putting the header high or low makes no difference to the strength, the material used, only thing is time.
If we start the day on a freshly sheeted floor we don't build a wall untill the floor is lined out, all the plates are tacked together and layout. All headers are cut all jacks are cut and nailed to studs, all criples, blocks and sills are cut evan the second top plates are cut and ready to go. All the double or triple studs are nailed, we use "Ls" up here and they are nailed togther.
We put the same people on a givin job for the speed of just knowing what you are doing every time.
Depending on who gets finished first sometimes we have sheeting cut for the first two or three walls before someone starts nailing walls together.
We have to drill hole in every dead cavity so we predrill a bunch of sheets will they are still on the pile, If we are not done that floor by noon the next day we are having a bad day, that's with a three man crew on about fifteen hundred sq, feet.


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## nealtw (Feb 14, 2014)

Asked a few question today, actually the engineers and cities want the header on the top so it can be nailed thru the top plate. Helps make the wall ridged. (earthquake zone)


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## RedBaron (Feb 22, 2014)

Here is another thing I have a problem with . I can't see this being acceptable. But would like to know what others think

This is the same house. The window was put in the wrong place and I told them they had to move it. after which time they added the plumbing but still hadn't moved the windows. Once I complained again and provided proof they moved the window, but now the plumbing was in the way so it was cut out and the window was moved and the picture shows what I ended up with

this is a 2x6 outside wall looking at the right side king stud 
(they did scab a 2x4 to the right side which you can kind of see, I would guess to increase strength


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## CallMeVilla (Feb 22, 2014)

OMG ... not even a block underneath to provide point load?  Completely shoddy.  I would NEVER do this ... although Neal might after a big Canadian lunch ...  :


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## oldognewtrick (Feb 23, 2014)

Well CMV, I don't think Neal could close his eyes and do that bad, this just keeps getting better and better...


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## nealtw (Feb 23, 2014)

Opps, All they had to do was add 3" to the header to get the king and jack off the hole.
Now tell them that you want that cut away the 9 1/4 to allow a double 2x10 to sit on the bottom plate and span the hole and support the studs, the 2x10 double should reach across to the next studs and criple on both sides where it can be nailed.
Orange paint on changes would have saved this problem. Up until now I haven't seen to much wrong with the framing but this one is a no no.


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