# Basement Window supporting 2 joists



## TJ22 (Dec 31, 2012)

My basement window is sitting on 10" concrete block.  On top of the wind is a 2by treated sill plate.  On top of the sill plate are 2 floor joists and there is some slight deflection in the sill plate.  The joists are cantilevered to the deck.  However there is nothing but the sill plate holding up the joists.  The exterior cantilevered deck joists appears that they may be sitting on steel angle but its just the angle that is used to support the brick facade, I dont believe it is there to bare load.  Its not a lintil that would also support the sill plate.

I had a structural engineer in to look at it, in addition to other issues and he suggested bolting steel angle to the block.  I did some quick reading and to get any type of support from that proposed solution, the angle would need to be rather large and make the window in operable.

Any ideas?


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## nealtw (Dec 31, 2012)

Welcome to the site. 
Did he not requimened a size to install?
What did he say about the angle iron outside? And how is it attached to what and has it got a bend to it?
You said the joists outside were cantilevered, so they have no other support like a post under the other end?
A cantilevered joist would be an inside joist that continues outside for one third of it's length with out other support.
Is there window above this window? If there is a window above that is the same size or bigger, the header above that window will carry the weight above and you only have to worry about the weight of the floor.


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## BridgeMan (Dec 31, 2012)

Your engineer dropped the ball by not coming up with the appropriate steel section (angle, channel, I-beam, or other) size needed to support the loads applied from above.  If we knew more about the window limitations and geometry involved, we might be able to offer some meaningful suggestions.

For sure, whatever you come up with for a strengthening member, you would to well to (gradually) raise the sagging joists and sill to eliminate the sag before bolting the new member into place.  A few adjustable jack-posts would work just fine.  And make a point of not damaging the integrity of the sill with your connections--meaning fabricating some short "wings" that extend horizontally from the backside of the new member onto the top of the sill, such than your attachment bolts won't split the sill.

A few more thoughts--if there's a deck outside, why would you need to have a window that opens?  Also, there's also a good chance that the cantilevered floor joists are carrying some load from a deck ledger outside.  Meaning you certainly don't want to skimp on the strength of the sill reinforcement member.


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## Wuzzat? (Dec 31, 2012)

If the window upper horizontal member is not bent down slightly (stretch a line to check) then the window is carrying no load.  In this case the member acts as a strain gage.


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## TJ22 (Dec 31, 2012)

I am attaching 2 photos.  I think the window is about 30" wide.


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## nealtw (Dec 31, 2012)

If you are asking what's wrong, the simple answer is "everything".
You might look at lowering the window and putting a header under the joists. If the framing beside the window on the inside is 2x4 going down to foundation wall you might get away with hangers for the header.


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## TJ22 (Jan 1, 2013)

Appreciate the feedback, and I am aware "everything" is wrong.  Really just looking for suggestions on what I can do to fix it.  I thought about pulling the window and installing something smaller with better framing, and a host of other ideas, none of which is ideal.  I was hoping to find a simpler solution, but I was unaware that the strength of steel angle at least what would fit and leave the window functional, is not that strong.

I just realized from the photo you cannot tell but the deck does have supports (4x4 posts) outside at the end and is not a true cantilevered deck.


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## BridgeMan (Jan 1, 2013)

Replacing the window with a shallower unit is probably your best option, allowing you to install a decent (4 x 4?) header above it, and under the existing sill plate.  You could slowly jack the header into position with a small hydraulic jack, taking the "whoops" out of the sill plate.  I think a slider window would be the way to go, in terms of reasonable cost, ability to open for ventilation when needed, and not looking awkward.


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## Wuzzat? (Jan 1, 2013)

Does your present setup cause any problems?


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## TJ22 (Jan 1, 2013)

The present setup doesn't cause any noticeable issues.  It has deflected slightly but its only noticeable if you put a straight end on it.  I am more concerned for the future and since I was tackling some other issues, I figured I would address it.  A smaller window with a double 2x4 header, with proper framing seems like the proper solution.


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## AndyGump (Jan 2, 2013)

Will a smaller window meet any possible emergency egress requirements?

Andy.


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## nealtw (Jan 2, 2013)

Really; 4x4 header? waist of time!


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## TJ22 (Jan 2, 2013)

nealtw said:


> Really; 4x4 header? waist of time!



What would you propose?  I am open to suggestions.

Also I just noticed in your previous post you asked about a window above this window.  There is a window above this window, but ends about the mid point of this window.


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## nealtw (Jan 2, 2013)

The window upstairs is in the worst possible place. Each end of that header should have solid blocking all the way to the foundation.
Now you have to look at the width of the window upstairs and how much weight is  landing on that header. Is there another floor above that window. Do floor joists or ceiling joists land on that wall above that window.


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## TJ22 (Jan 2, 2013)

The window upstairs is very large ~8' wide and ~5-6' tall.  The last 1' or so of the window is above this basement window.  There is no floor above that window but the ceiling joists ie roof trusses do sit on the window.  They run the same direction as the floor joists.  I can give you exact dimensions if that would help.


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## nealtw (Jan 2, 2013)

In new house construction, all headers are 2x10s doubled, anytime jack studs are landing above another header the city guys will ask for an engineers report which often ends up being a beam of some sort. In a situation like yours the beam would be built into the floor where the rim joist is and then the joists are hung off of that. If it's discovered after the fact like yours it could be worked into the wall upstairs just above the floor , spanning the window downstairs. That would take care of the weight of the wall and roof but you would still have to find some way to hang the floor joists from that beam. You might have got away with hanging the joists off the rim joists but some Half wit cut in to it.


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## TJ22 (Jan 3, 2013)

I think I will stick a screw jack under those 2 joists and snug them up for now.  Not sure how to proceed a this point.  I could even take the window out entirely but the blocks beneath the window would need to go as well , as they are angled at the top.


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## nealtw (Jan 3, 2013)

While you think about that, the deck joists should have hangers on the other end as they are not on top of the beam.


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## TJ22 (Jan 3, 2013)

Neal, thanks for the info.  I actually install joist hangers on the deck joists this summer.  There were just end nailed, not even toe nailed.  I wish I knew what I know now back then.  If I ever buy another house I will know what to look for.

I did have an inspector look it over, however some of this was covered up so he didn't catch it.  He did however catch the joist hangers.


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## nealtw (Jan 3, 2013)

So is that a single rim joist on the outside of the deck?
Hangers and hanger nails galvinized?


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## TJ22 (Jan 3, 2013)

Yes its currently a single.  Its on my todo list to double it up.  Galvanized hangers and galvanized hanger nails I think they are 16d or  maybe 10d, but they were what was required specifically for these hangers.


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## nealtw (Jan 3, 2013)

I have a plan, you may not like it but you can think about it.
Cut the two deck joists off at the wall and remove them from under the deck.
Remove brick and rim joist above the window and 3 inches on each side.
Cut back the two floor joists inside and slide in a beam like 3 1/2 x 9 1/2 or whatever fits 
Hang the floor joists off the beam inside and out
Replace the lentle with one long enough to work and rebrick.

In fact all the deck joists should be removed from the house and those holes bricked up and a ledger added to the outside of the brick.


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## inspectorD (Jan 3, 2013)

Be careful with that neal, you still need to support the brick above the deck.
Good concept though, maybe a piece of steel with some wood on the inside.
Or?....


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## nealtw (Jan 4, 2013)

Yup........................


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## BridgeMan (Jan 4, 2013)

Way more work than what's needed.  Spending 3 or 4 months on a 4-hour project never made sense to me.  Along with cutting off perfectly good members. 

But, hey, don't listen to me--I've always been guilty of doing things the most practical way for the situation at hand, in a manner that effectively deals with whatever structural requirements are necessary to keep the place standing.


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## nealtw (Jan 4, 2013)

Bridgeman; In your first posting you asked for more information on the sturcture. Now that you know that it has the load of the floor the roof and half a large window and the deck, do you still think a 4x4 will add anything to the structure?  As I don't have experience with brick, perhaps you can tell me about the lintel, it dosn't seem to extend past the window frame, is the window frame supporting it?


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## TJ22 (Jan 4, 2013)

Neal, I would definitely prefer an easier solution (who wouldn't), however I understand what you are saying and why you suggested it.  Its definitely above my pay grade and comfort level.  Also you are not the first one to suggest cutting off the deck joists and adding a support beam outside.

Bridgeman, if you have an alternative easier solution I am definitely open to it.  And I don't entirely understand lintels myself, but it appears to me that this one is just steel angle holding up the brick around the window.

I really appreciate, everyone taking so much time to help me with this issue.  Regardless of the end solution thanks.

I am planning on a temp solution of snugging up 2 screw floor jacks under the 2 joists - which are also nailed to the deck joists.  I think this should be adequate support until I can find the right solution for me, or until I can find someone that can implement neals solution.

While I now understand what is correct and ideal, the house has been there 20 years, with very little deflection on the sill plate above the window, so something is holding all that load.


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## nealtw (Jan 4, 2013)

If it's not a bedroom you could just close it down to a 14" window and put studs under the joists. As far as settling goes, you don't know when the deck was installed.


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## BridgeMan (Jan 5, 2013)

Sorry, nealtw, but it sounds like you might not understand the difference between concentrated loads and uniformly distributed loads.  Making a few conservative assumptions and working the numbers backwards (equating the internal resisting moment to an applied external load-induced moment) for a 4 x 4 Doug fir header spanning 33", shows that such would be good for resisting a tad more than one-half ton of concentrated vertical force (1039 lb.), or a uniform load of 756 lb./ft.  If that isn't enough to resist the OP's applied loads, there's always the option of going with a shallow steel member.  An A36 I-beam (S 4 x 9.5) would be almost 8 times stronger in bending.  But going that route would enable welding the unsupported lintel to the bottom flange edge, if a welder qualified for overhead would be brought into the picture.  Or skip the welding and just go with a wider, wide-flange steel member supporting both the existing sill and steel angle lintel.

And TJ, your understanding of steel lintels is right on the money.


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## nealtw (Jan 7, 2013)

Bridgeman: to my surprize I did find that douglas fir 4x4 is a min. header in the UBC code But it applies to a single story house with no point loads. As this is a basement and it has half a window above which is a pointload , your 4x4 is not good enough. I learned along time ago that it dosn't matter if the numbers work, it is a matter of code or what some engineer wants to put his name to.


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## TJ22 (Jan 7, 2013)

I am open to removing it all together.  Could I just pull the window and and frame it in with dimension lumber?  Maybe all treated 2x8?  Since the block is 8" this is the biggest I could fit at least as framing, them header could be bigger if needed.

The deck was installed when the house was built.

I think I may see where some of the load it going.  The deck joists and the floor joists are nailed together.  The floor joists are sitting on the sill and the deck joists are also sitting on the steel angle (about 3.75" x 3.5") above the window that holds the brick.

Could this be why the sill has not deflected too much?


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## nealtw (Jan 7, 2013)

That would be the quick fix. the steel lentil dosn't appear to extend past the window frame. So I would remove the sash and leave the frame there and frame it in. Treated lumber in this area may not be a bad idea as the deck joists could bring water into this area. 2x8s are only 7 1/4" so it may easier to build with 2x4s twice. No header neaded, just put studs under the joists and two studs under the edge of the window above and two 2x4 blocks in the floor space for the window above.


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## TJ22 (Jan 8, 2013)

Just to clarify remove window and in its place add 4 vertical members: one under each joist and 4 under the edge of the above window?  I wasn't sure what you meant by "two 2x4 blocks in the floor space for the window above."


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## nealtw (Jan 8, 2013)

2 below the edge of the window and at least one peice above that between the top of the wall and the floor sheeting.


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