# Want to track down problem with half of my old house wiring out



## jteam (Mar 12, 2013)

Ok I have an older home with older wiring and a fuse box with buss and glass fuses in it, problem is while I was working out of town last summer my family decided to hook up a filter for an outdoor swimming pool they were given and when they plugged it in my garage it knocked out the power to the garage and the front room power in the house,while the remaining power stayed on in the kitchen,bathroom,and two bedrooms, I have replaced all the fuses in the electrical panel box and still have the problem.the wires from the garage go to the panel but also go up in the attic where it hooks into the outlets and lights for the front room so I am guessing it could have blown a wire up there. I plan on getting everything upgraded which is what I was going to do before I became layed off from my job and when I become employed financially again but for now I would like to be able to just restore half the house back to the way it was for now.I will take all advise like a man and look forward to your thoughts,Thanks.Joel.


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## bud16415 (Mar 12, 2013)

Sounds like they blew one of your main fuses. If you have something like an old 60 amp service at the top there is mains on one side in a pull out block. Have you checked voltage at the panel between both legs of the 220 and ground. Each leg should be 110 volts. If the one leg is zero most likely that fuse is blown. You said you have replaced all the fuses but my thought is that you just changed the screw in fuses.


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## nealtw (Mar 12, 2013)

If you had fuses bigger than 15s, I would check as much wire and connections I could before replacing them and looking further.


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## kok328 (Mar 12, 2013)

If your not comfortable entering the fuse panel, you can test voltage on any 240V appliance (i.e.- electric stove or dryer) and see if you have 120V hot to ground on each leg.


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## jteam (Mar 12, 2013)

Thanks for the answers to my post, the bids fuses have been replaced so since I like to take things in steps what suggestions for my next step in troubleshooting this problem should I take ?


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## jteam (Mar 12, 2013)

jteam said:
			
		

> Thanks for the answers to my post, the bids fuses have been replaced so since I like to take things in steps what suggestions for my next step in troubleshooting this problem should I take ?



I meant buss fuses of course.


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## jteam (Mar 12, 2013)

I meant buss fuses of course I my last post


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## nealtw (Mar 13, 2013)

Buss fuses, the screw in ones?
Do you have any 240 volt appliances, stove, dryer, hot water tanks? Do they work?
Can you post a photo of the fuse box and related gear?


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## Sparky723 (Mar 13, 2013)

nealtw said:
			
		

> Buss fuses, the screw in ones?
> Do you have any 240 volt appliances, stove, dryer, hot water tanks? Do they work?
> Can you post a photo of the fuse box and related gear?



I second Neal. Pics would be nice


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## bud16415 (Mar 13, 2013)

Yes a photo would be a good starting point having verified you do have both legs up and running. The suggestion of checking at a 220 outlet if you have a fear of poking around inside the box is good, but on the other hand if you don&#8217;t feel comfortable with a meter and using it calling in a pro is a good idea. The question of is your 220 appliances working is an excellent clue also given they are connected into the main fuse box. In a lot of these older houses it was common as demand grew to add a second 220 box off the meter for just a dryer or something. In that case the dryer could still work fine having lost one leg. Are you sure you don&#8217;t have a sub panel with fuses or breakers in the garage that someone tapped into for the front room. That would be my only guess. 

If the pool pump was shorted the draw would be much higher than what the pump is rated at and its unlikely you burned up wires unless someone had upsized the fuses somewhere along the line. I would rule out that there isn&#8217;t a secondary fuse someplace controlling the garage and feeding back to the front room.


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## jteam (Mar 14, 2013)

So far The main fuse box and I can only find one anywhere both in the garage or any other location,it has a main 240 with 60 amp cartridge fuses in it and the same thing for the range they both sit side by side. There are four screw in type 30 amp fuses just below where these set, very small home so these suffice.and I have replaced every one of them,all appliances work.the garage has a light switch, one outlet,on the same wall and directly on the other side of the wall in what we call the washroom is another outlet, all of these do not work including the garage door opener.i can see where a wire runs from the wall in the garage up into the attic,I am guessing that it drops down to the front room which has two outlets and a light that do not work. The rest of the washroom, kitchen,two bedrooms, bathroom ,storage food pantry room , hall light all electrical works in those.thanks again for trying to help.


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## JoeD (Mar 14, 2013)

30 amp fuses are too large for your general receptacles and lighting. If these are for your receptacles and lighting then your circuits are overloaded and you need a major electrical upgrade. Could be something has burnt up from overloading.


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## Sparky723 (Mar 14, 2013)

JoeD said:
			
		

> 30 amp fuses are too large for your general receptacles and lighting. If these are for your receptacles and lighting then your circuits are overloaded and you need a major electrical upgrade. Could be something has burnt up from overloading.



I agree. Even if all was working, your setup is very old. Cartridge and glass fuses? Yuk. It's time to upgrade and get safe. Since its a little house, you could probably have whole house done for $1000-$1,500. That why you would have all of the problems and rising safety issues.


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## bud16415 (Mar 14, 2013)

With 60 amp service the lower screw in fuses should be 15 amp each. That was the major problem with these old setups the homeowner would keep upping fuse sizes and adding load. The wires are not sized for those current draws though. Now that we know this you could well have taken a wire out when the pump shorted. Let&#8217;s say you had some wire that could take 20 amps and it was connected to a 30 amp fuse the wire would go before the fuse. In your case the pump made the current go real high and blew a wire someplace. The worst case would have been if the load was high for the wire size but not enough to melt it. In that case it would just start heating slowly melting the insulation and maybe cause a short or just the heat causing a fire. 

Joe D is correct you need an upgrade and until then you need to put smaller fuses in the bottom and manage your load if you start popping fuses. 

Finding your problem you will have to get a volt meter or a tester and work your way out the circuit until you don&#8217;t get voltage. Start at the box and work your way to the garage. When you find the leg that&#8217;s broken you will have to replace that wire for now. 

If you haven&#8217;t done it before you should have the fuses marked as to what they power. Unscrew each one and have someone tell you what went out. One of the 4 is the garage that&#8217;s where you have to start.


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## bud16415 (Mar 14, 2013)

I agree upgrading would be in order. There really isn&#8217;t anything unsafe with glass fuses as long as people didn&#8217;t upsize them or put a penny in behind it when the fuse blew and they didn&#8217;t have a replacement fuse.  A fuse is a very sure way to interrupt power albeit out of date. When your house was built or wired they felt 60 amps for a house was a huge amount of overkill all most people had was a radio and a few light bulbs. Now we have all kinds of power guzzling stuff and 200 amp is more the norm.

Does yours look something like this?

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k246/bnegrelli/IMG_20110809_231004.jpg


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## nealtw (Mar 14, 2013)

JoeD said:


> 30 amp fuses are too large for your general receptacles and lighting. If these are for your receptacles and lighting then your circuits are overloaded and you need a major electrical upgrade. Could be something has burnt up from overloading.


 
I agree with Joe, you may have burned down the house with this set up.
Change the 4 fuses to 15 amp and let us know what lights don't work when you take each fuse out.:hide:


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## nealtw (Mar 14, 2013)

Guys: He has already said, he can't afford an upgrade right now. He likely has 2 fuses that are not being used.


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## jteam (Mar 14, 2013)

Yes the set up that Neil's picture post is the same as mine except that I have handles that allow me to pull the cartridge fuses out of the panel.


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## bud16415 (Mar 14, 2013)

I don&#8217;t think he has fuses not being used. Normally fuses don&#8217;t get upsized unless there is a repeat overload. Sounds like he may have a line balance problem depending on what he does out in the garage and what in the house is on that circuit. 60 amps in a small house could be fine if he has gas hot water , dryer, stove, no AC etc. and has the rest of the house equal on the four 15 amp fuses. And one 220 appliance.

With or without an upgrade he needs to find the problem and knowing now the fuses were sized double he has to dig into the walls or ceiling or wherever the open circuit will be. Once he gets the smaller fuses in place he may well find he&#8217;s blowing a fuse from time to time with too many things turned on at once. 

If he has to he can disconnect wires in junction boxes and ring them out once he narrows it down.


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## CallMeVilla (Mar 14, 2013)

OK, JTeam, you have received great advice here.  I know, you just want your house to function until you can get the $$$ for a full upgrade.  My sense is you may have blown a wire somewhere ---  and probably escaped a fire by raw luck.  You need to trace your power from the box to the rest of the house (particularly where there is no power) to find the break (interruption).

A simple $15 device (picture below) and a lot of crawling in the attic can get you there.

It beeps/lights in the presence of electricity on the hot side (not the neutral).  BE CAREFUL not to touch anything except the probe to the wire.  Check from the box first to see that every leg is powered.  If so, locate each feed wire in the attic to see which ones are powered and follow the trace.  At some point, the circuit will no longer respond.  In that area, your break or burned connection will be located  --  possibly in a junction box or receptacle.  In an old house, sloppy people may not have used a j-box  --  only splicing wires and using tape.

Money well spent would be to get help doing this work.  It might go faster and safer for you.


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## jteam (Mar 14, 2013)

Appreciate all the Advice I have received, all of the ideas are important to help to solve problems like mine, that's one of the things I like about this sites forums , you are all important to these forums,I am going to purchase a tester like Villa suggests, I will keep you posted. Joel


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## nealtw (Mar 14, 2013)

Villa; Good proceedure, you left out the test for bad neutral . In the first test you make sure nothing is turned on, if you have power right to the end, then you turn on a light there and work your way back.

I have seen some war time house wired like this, only using 2 fuses.


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## JoeD (Mar 14, 2013)

nealtw said:


> Guys: He has already said, he can't afford an upgrade right now. He likely has 2 fuses that are not being used.



Then he certainly can't afford a new house when it burns down. His choice I guess. At least change the fuses to 15 amps and manage the loads if they start popping.


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## CallMeVilla (Mar 14, 2013)

C'mon guys!  You know how the car mechanic wants to change out all the parts to get the vehicle PERFECT?  You say NO because you can't afford "perfect."

JTeam wants a safe interim fix before doing the complete re-do.  Good idea to downsize the fuses.  Good idea to locate the burned wires and restore power  ...  he might even discover something more hazardous that needs immediate fixing.

But, until he has the cash (tax return?) let's just help him get back on his feet and help him to open the garage door!


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## bud16415 (Mar 15, 2013)

There is nothing wrong with fuses. Having the ability to easily upsize fuses to unsafe sizes is a problem and I have been guilty of jumping up to a 20 amp myself for a short period of time. I knew my loads and my wiring. 

The advice to put the 15&#8217;s back in right now would be wrong not to give and also to point out how the loads heat the wires and the potential for fire. In the old town where I live almost all the houses are still wired this way and many had a second power in from the meter added in the 60&#8217;s or 70&#8217;s to second panel to get the service up to 100 amps. Most of these old places also still have some knob and tube wiring and when people do get a panel upgrade they get into some or all rewiring and that&#8217;s where the costs go up. Many don&#8217;t have grounds run also. I still see huge bins of three prong adapters at hardware stores so someone is buying them and every garage sale I go to and find a power tool half the time the ground prong has been snapped off. 

The OP was pretty clear he wanted and had planned for an upgrade to the panel before he fell on hard times. So his intentions are in the right direction IMO. To make his house safe in the meantime he needs to limit the size fuses he is using to 15 amps per circuit and he need to find the source of the failure and correct it. When things improve my advice would be to put a panel upgrade high on his list. And hopefully have some rewiring done to balance out his loading and adding more circuits. That&#8217;s every bits as important as the new panel. 

If he has 15 amp fuses in the box and is running an extension cord out to the garage as someone suggested. That might not be the best but at least he&#8217;s going to blow the fuse before he melts down again. 

It&#8217;s not that hard to run down an open circuit like this. It takes a systematic approach and all the above advice on how to do that is sound. Chances are it will be in a junction box inside an old time wire nut. My experience has been the original wiring is mostly always done correct. The homeowner add on stuff really needs to be looked at. So the above post saying don&#8217;t be surprised if you find a few other problems waiting to happen during the investigation of this one is very true.


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## bud16415 (Mar 15, 2013)

Once again a fuse when properly used is every bit as good as a circuit breaker and in some ways they can be better. Fuses react and open a circuit in .2 of the 60 cycle time span of one cycle, Breakers take 1.5 times a single cycle. A fuse once open will restrict huge amounts of current from arcing. Fuses have no moving parts and will protect for long periods of time in dirty environments. They do a better job protecting electronics because of their fast break time. Breakers are easy and safe to reset but every time they trip there is an arc and wear. If you trip a breaker the second time you should be looking into what is causing the problem. Most people don&#8217;t because it&#8217;s so easy to reset, but just like a fuse you are overloading the circuit and should find the cause.  Some recommend exercising breakers once or twice a year to make sure they are free. 

Fuse panels are looked at as unsafe because of the misuse they are given. Insurance companies in some areas of the country won&#8217;t write a policy on a house with one anymore, or will charge extra. It&#8217;s based on tables of when there is a fire what caused it and they see people are overloading them with too big of fuses but it simplifies down to &#8220;no fuses&#8221;.  The fix to blowing fuses isn&#8217;t replacing them with larger sizes just like the fix to circuit breaker tripping isn&#8217;t resetting. 

I remember a system they had as a kid that had each size fuse have a different thread and when you screwed the fuse in the first time the insert locked in the hole. It was a method of preventing using the wrong amp fuse but my dad always said it was a method of making you buy their fuses for more money and he would pry the inserts out of the holes. It&#8217;s been so long that I have bought a fuse I don&#8217;t know if that company is still around. 

One interesting factoid is Edison had patents on both systems.


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## CallMeVilla (Mar 15, 2013)

I got called to fix a blown fuse problem on an old (1940's) house.  Replaced blown fuses, traced wires, found no proximate cause.  A modest rain storm ensued and the tenant lost power  --  and he replaced the blown fuses  --  twice before I came back.

Up on the roof, it turned out the branched main feed which ran from roof fascia to fascia must have been there for decades in the sun and rain.  The insulation had become brittle and broke off in spots.  When the winde blew hard enough, the wires would touch and arc.  Wish I had pictures.

Replaced the feed wiring between fascias.  Fuse problem stopped.  OH MY!


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## bud16415 (Mar 15, 2013)

A couple years ago in the winter during an ice storm my son in early 20&#8217;s calls my cell and said everything is exploding he said I turn on a light and it is so bright and then it explodes. Says smoke is coming from appliances not turned on and out of the TV. I told him to be careful but he had to throw the main. He thought the world was ending or something and I was really glad someone was home when it did happen. It&#8217;s a freak thing but stuff happens. 

I get home and here the ice caused the service line to rub on a tree limb and the wire (old) had a break in it and it was putting one leg of the 220 on the neutral. The ground wire that went into the earth was not doing its job and I ended up with about $5000 in damaged stuff mostly electronics. The only thing that wasn&#8217;t hurt was the computer that was on a fancy power strip with all the protection built in. I now have all kinds of gizmos protecting my stuff. 

On a side note my brother in law has a bunch of rentals and he was having a lot of strange electrical problems he couldn&#8217;t figure out last summer. Come to find out times are tough and the people took the ground cable off the power pole and sold it for scrap. This happened right after they took the aluminum siding off his rental up about 9 feet as high as they could jump.  And removed his copper pipe in the basement without turning off the water.  Only to mention a few.


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## jteam (Mar 16, 2013)

Update on my house wiring problem I have replaced all the screw in fuses with 15 amp. I have pulled out the main cartridge fuses ,two 60 amp and tested the receptacles behind them, of the 4 points of contact . Three of the points light up and beep at me and one does not. When I pull out the other cartridge fuses, two 60 amp again for the oven range ,out of the 4 points of contact behind them the bottom two light up and beep at me and the top two do not.


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## CallMeVilla (Mar 16, 2013)

Gosh, JTeam, pictures would REALLY HELP.


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## jteam (Mar 16, 2013)

Now I have walked out to the garage and the lights and outlets are working there and also work in the front room a little puzzling for a novice like me.


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## Sparky723 (Mar 16, 2013)

Without multiple pics, and the ongoing problems-you need to get a $1,500 home improvement loan and get a whole house rewire.
SOLVE all these problems. I don't care what others say (Neal), its gonna get used at a higher capacity of amps overall. Whether its you or the next tenant...it needs to be safe.
It's a fire waiting to happen. Period.


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## JoeD (Mar 16, 2013)

Sounds like one of the fuses had a poor connection. Some times the clips that hold the fuses become stretched and do not grip and contact the fuse properly.


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## jteam (Mar 17, 2013)

Yes I applied for home improvement help to get help with the upgrade I will hope for the best.


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## nealtw (Mar 18, 2013)

jteam said:


> , two 60 amp again for the oven range ,out of the 4 points of contact behind them the bottom two light up and beep at me and the top two do not.


 
I beleive the stove should have had 30 amp fuses in these old boxes.


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## JoeD (Mar 18, 2013)

It would be a small stove with 30 amp fuses. Most I have seen need 40 amp. However if you don't use too many burners at once it could work just fine a 30 amp circuit.


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## Fireguy5674 (Mar 18, 2013)

JoeD said:


> Sounds like one of the fuses had a poor connection. Some times the clips that hold the fuses become stretched and do not grip and contact the fuse properly.


 
I would say Joe is correct about there being a contact problem in the main box.  And while it could be just not getting proper contact with the fuse it could also be where the clip for the fuse is attached to the box.  From the description and age of your equipment you can have many issues as described in all the previous posts.  My concern is if it only took pulling the fuses out and putting them back in to "fix" the problem then you obviously have a loose connection, probably in your main panel, that will now heat up because you are drawing current through it.  Monitor your main often to be sure you don't burn the place down till you can get it fixed right.  

I bought an old home once knowing one of my first priorities would be to replace the electric service.  On the morning I arrived home from work and the power company was coming to change me over to my new service, I walked in the back door and smelled something really hot.  I checked my main service boxes (two 60 amp boxes side by side) and found a fuse socket sizzling and glowing red.  The girls had two minutes to finish getting ready for work/school before the power was shut off.  It can and does happen all the time.  I went to a fire call on an old home and found the only reason the building was not burning was because the panel caught fire and melted the plastic water line directly above the main box and extinguished the fire before it could get rolling.  Unintentional sprinkler system.


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## nealtw (Mar 18, 2013)

Joe: the stove may need 40 amps but that is not a consideration. I suspect a 40 amp stove blew  the fuses and someone upgraded, without checking wire size I would guess 30 amps.

Sparky, No one here has dissagreed with you on the need to upgrade the system including the homeowner, the idea is to make it as safe as possible until he can get that done.

jteam; Smoke detectors, even battery ones for now?


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## CallMeVilla (Mar 18, 2013)

Let me piggyback on Neal  ...  smoke detectors near the panel !!


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## bud16415 (Mar 18, 2013)

What most likely happened is they plugged in the pool filter that was shorted and crowbarred the circuit. All that current went thru that one 30 amp fuse and cooked the tip or the outside contact and burnt it up along with blowing the fuse. In his OP he said he changed all the fuses not sure why he did that but he should remove the one he now knows controls that line again and look and see if things inside the socket look blackened compared to the one next to it. My guess is its burnt where it&#8217;s visible. Somehow screwing the fuse in and out a few times gave him a better contact. 

The secondary set of fuses marked range can be used for hot water tank , stove , air conditioner etc. I believe they don&#8217;t go thru the mains and to totally kill the house you need to pull both. Of course the disconnect switch isolates both first.  At least I have seen them set up that way. I have always seen them with 30 amp fuses. 

All these systems are past their expiration date. 

Has the OP seen any problems now that he has the 15 amp fuses in place? I would think whoever bumped them up to 30 amp did it for a reason. If so all the more reason to replace ASAP as that extra current prolonged combined with this fault has taken its wear and tear on the panel. For now keep the low fuses in there no matter what and make sure the bad one is clean inside and that the screw in fuses are tight. It goes without saying don&#8217;t try cleaning the contact point unless the power is off.


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## nealtw (Mar 18, 2013)

Just talked to an oldtimer who installed these things. He said a 60amp service had 60 amp main fuses and 30 amp stove fuse when they changed to 100 amp service the stove was wired in serries and the stove was wired with #3 wire with 60 amp fuses and the main fuses were still 60 amps and the two boxes looked the same. The later, the stove would still have power when the main fuses were pulled. He ended the conversation with " I THINK"


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## jteam (Mar 20, 2013)

I have not had any problems since I changed the 30 amp fuses to 15 amp.Saying that, I am not running or plugging in anything extra either until I get an upgrade.The previous owner had a set of 30 amp sitting nearby so we put them in when we had the pool filter cord short out and we lost power to the garage and front room.i also tried to replace the 30 amp with another 30 amp in the slot for front room power and it blew the fuse even cracked the glass front of it.Although when I put a 15 amp in its place it has worked fine since,a bit scary I agree.


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## nealtw (Mar 20, 2013)

When the first problem happened, it blew a fifteen amp fuse or a 30? Perhaps the fuse that blew right away already had a crack?
Do you have a ground wire in the plugs or just 2 prong plugs?


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## jteam (Mar 20, 2013)

The whole house is all two prong plugs and the wife just popped in whatever fuse was laying around available ,I was gone away working for two months at a time so When I came home I think I bought 30 amp to replace what the previous owner had in there already really can't remember for sure.


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## nealtw (Mar 20, 2013)

So I guess if the 15 amp fuses are working, the only time the wires were overloaded was with the pool filter. The fact that something stopped working in the fuse box at the same time was likely a blessing. I would still open up the plugs between the panel and the garage on that line and just look for any signs of heat dammage. The other thing I would do is change the first plug on that line to gfi plug. That would protect the kids at the pool, they don't need a ground wire to work. I would also change the stove fuses to 40 amp, 60 amps there is just pushing your luck.
While you are thinking about upgrading, the electric company will want the new meter to be within a few feet of the front of the house on the side, just another expence if it has to be moved.


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## jteam (Mar 20, 2013)

Sounds like solid advice to me,thank you.


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