# Help with Outside Garage Lighting



## Afrowookie

Hi all,

I need some help or advice on how to troubleshoot my outside garage lighting that lights up my driveway.  There are two lights on either side of the garage door, bot have not been working since I bought the house 3 years ago but I could've sworn that when viewing the house for purchase I remembered them being on.  These lights are not dusk to dawn lights and no sensors on them.  I just need to find out why my switch is not turning them on.  Yes I changed the light bulbs.

Inside my house next to my front door,  I have 3 switches, all work and does something except for one which I am guessing is for those garage lights.  It originally had a Leviton timer switch on it which no matter how I programmed it and what I did to the switch the lights still never came on.  I thought the timer switch was defective and wired in a brand new traditional wall switch and still nothing.

How do I know this is the garage switch?  The breaker on the panel is even labelled for that breaker as (Front door light, porch light and garage light).

So where do I go from here?  Will a wire tracer work in this case?  Can I plug something into the light socket on one end and on the other end into the suspected switch and tell if there is even voltage in the lines and maybe if there's a break/open somewhere?

Also, I noticed that on the outside of the garage there are two conduits, one bigger for main wiring of the garage and one smaller, probably only big enough for one maybe two wires, which I am assuming if for the outside garage lights from the house.

Please any help would be appreciated.


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## nealtw

Pull the light fixture closest to the front door and check the connections. If there is only one set of wires in there check the other fixture.


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## bud16415

Have you done any home electrical before? Do you have a multi-meter or a current tester? 

Welcome to the forum.


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## Snoonyb

Where do each of the 2 conduits entering the garage terminate?


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## Kabris

Check the connections at the switch box. All digital timers require a neutral. Did you tie the neutral back in when you installed the toggle switch? Strange that the lights weren't working with timer, but those timers will fail from time to time.


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## nealtw

A friend went nuts trying to figure out something like this for light posts at the end of the driveway.
It turn out the switch he was playing with was for an outlet up in the soffet for Xmas lights The switch he eventually found was at the man door from the garage to the house.


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## Kabris

A non contact voltage detector is your best bet for troubleshooting something like this. Take the faceplate off the switch bank, turn the switch off and on, and see if you have voltage on your switch leg (output), and that your switch is working properly. Then remove a bulb from your garage light, turn the switch on and touch your detector to the base of the socket (make sure you're dry!) A voltage detector is relatively cheap (around $15) and great for troubleshooting.


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## Afrowookie

Thanks for all the replies.

I will try to answer all the questions.

1)  I know a little or enough about electrical to injure or kill myself.  Lol  In other words I know the basics and don't have a lot of experience with it, only wiring light fixtures, receptacles and switches and the sort.  Not wire tracing.

2)  I do have a digital multimeter and a voltage tester.

3)  Both conduits enter the garage on the same side between the garage and house and about 1-2 feet apart.  I'm not sure what you mean by termination, (inexperience).  I'm pretty sure the big conduit goes in the fuse panel for the garage and as for the smaller one, must be for the two lights at the front of garage.

4)  I am pretty sure I tied the Neutral back into the switch.  Did I do it properly?  I don't know. lol.  I will have to check it again.  Also for all I know the old timer switch could have still been working fine.

5)  All switches and receptacles has a function as normal with or without a switch.  It is only this one switch that appears to do nothing and only one set of lights (front garage) that has no way to turn on.  So put two and two together leads me to believe that those lights are tied into that switch.

I was thinking about getting the Sperry Wire Tracer for this problem, would this help in this case or do I even need it?


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## nealtw

Did you check the breakers in the garage.


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## Afrowookie

Yes I already did that.

The garage has a 3 breaker panel for Garage heater, Lights and one for Receptacles.  There are only 2 switches in the garage.  One for the Lights inside the garage and one for the Rear of the garage for the flood lights.

Everything here is working as advertised except for the lights at the front of garage.


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## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> Yes I already did that.
> 
> The garage has a 3 breaker panel for Garage heater, Lights and one for Receptacles.  There are only 2 switches in the garage.  One for the Lights inside the garage and one for the Rear of the garage for the flood lights.
> 
> Everything here is working as advertised except for the lights at the front of garage.



Most times power is at the switch first and then goes to the lights.
What you described was a switch leg with a white and black so the power is at the light first, in the garage?


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## Kabris

nealtw said:


> Most times power is at the switch first and then goes to the lights.
> 
> What you described was a switch leg with a white and black so the power is at the light first, in the garage?




Makes me think power is at switch if he had a timer there, since most of them need a neutral.


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## nealtw

Kabris said:


> Makes me think power is at switch if he had a timer there, since most of them need a neutral.



It is a gang switch box so there is a neutral there from another source??

But with the timer there would have been 3 wires and he said he hooked up two, so checking his wiring at the switch might be a good idea.


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## beachguy005

You have to check a couple of things.  Check if there is even voltage at the switch going to garage from the house.  Check with it in the off and on positions. You should also check the wiring at the fixtures.  The light fixtures will be wired with switched power coming from the house into one fixture, and feeding from it to the other fixture.  If there is a loose or open connection at the fixture a new timer or switch won't help.


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## Snoonyb

beachguy005 said:


> You have to check a couple of things.  Check if there is even voltage at the switch going to garage from the house.  Check with it in the off and on positions. You should also check the wiring at the fixtures.  The light fixtures will be wired with switched power coming from the house into one fixture, and feeding from it to the other fixture.  If there is a loose or open connection at the fixture a new timer or switch won't help.



Or, the conduit may terminate in a "J" box, behind one of the fixtures, or separate "J" box and the fixtures wired from that.


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## slownsteady

Have you confirmed that there is no three-way switch in the circuit?


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## Afrowookie

Hi haven't confirmed the 3 way circuit yet.  Plus I'm not exactly sure what I am looking for.  Is there an example of what a 3 way circuit is supposed to look like?


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## nealtw

A three way circuit  would be just another switch somewhere that would operate the same lights.
The hint would have been a red wire in the first switch box.
A timer switch would have had three wires , you said you hooked up two wires, what did you do with the third and what colour was it.


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## Snoonyb

Actually, the timer has three wires, a black, a red and a white.

The single pole switch would only use 2 points of connection, so the 3rd wire from the timer that was originally tied to the neutral bundle in the switch box would not be necessary.

The OP needs to find the hot pair and make sure he has a hot connection to the new switch.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> Actually, the timer has three wires, a black, a red and a white.
> 
> The single pole switch would only use 2 points of connection, so the 3rd wire from the timer that was originally tied to the neutral bundle in the switch box would not be necessary.
> 
> The OP needs to find the hot pair and make sure he has a hot connection to the new switch.



Or no red wire and just a pigtail or jumper from power that has been lost.
As a single switch with power in that box the switch should have two blacks and white would go to the cluster of whites in the back of the box.


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## Afrowookie

Can't remember if there was a red.  Anywho I will check tomorrow when I get off work and check it out, maybe even a pic if I remember.


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## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> Or no red wire and just a pigtail or jumper from power that has been lost.
> As a single switch with power in that box the switch should have two blacks and white would go to the cluster of whites in the back of the box.



Most of the programable timers are prewired with their own pigtails, so when removed the pigtails go away with them.

Where the black from the timer was connected would either have been from the hot pair or if the switches were wired in the plug-n-play method, plugged into the hot of an adjacent switch, and pigtailed to a screw of the new switch, and the wire the red from the timer should be connected to the other screw of the new switch.


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## afjes_2016

Also to help determine if that garage light set up was a 3 or even a 4 way remember, even though the switch where you are working was a timer (and you are not sure if this is a 3 way) there has to be another 3 way switch somewhere else if it is a 3 way set up. Look for another switch that does not have a "on" and "off" on the front of the switch (like in the garage) that does not do anything when you flip the switch if you find it. This will at least give you a clue if it is a 3 way set up. I have seen 3 way set up for garage and outdoor lighting with a switch at the front door, switch in the garage and maybe if the garage is attached a switch by the door in the house that goes into the garage.

Note to OP: 3 and 4 way switches do not have the markings of "on" and "off" on the front of them because they could be on or off in the same position depending on the positions of the other switch/s.


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## kok328

Possibly a photo eye that your not finding and the timer was used to override the duration of the photo eye ?


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## Afrowookie

There are no photo eyes, these are just simple on/off lights as far as I can tell.

Also there are no more switches that are inoperable, either inside or outside of the garage, or outside of the house.  Just the one inside the house that does not work.  Btw, I also check the breaker panel inside the house and that one breaker was labelled as "Parking light, porch and entrance lights".

Here are some pics I took of the Light switches and wiring. I have other images of the outside garage lights, garage fuse panel and switches, the conduits of the garage and house if you like to see them.


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## nealtw

The two you have marked dead, will only be live when the switch is turn on.
It is a little confusing, can you confirm the that the switch on the right has a wire going out of the box.
Make sure all the white wires are firm in the nuts.


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## Snoonyb

The wiring looks correct, so, if you have 120V to grnd. with your VOM when measuring from the top screw of the 3rd switch, with the switch on,  the loose connection is further down to line.


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## Afrowookie

Thanks for the replies, I will check again tomorrow for the wire going out of the box.  I'm assuming I am looking for a black and white wires.  I will try to take a pic again.


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## markfothebeast

I've always felt that wire nuts aren't very safe. A wire that wasn't in the nut tight enough can eventually wiggle its way out and wreak havoc. Seen it many times. Avoid checking the current at the pigtail end at the light switch terminal. Instead, test the main power source wire entering the box to the pigtail and work your way up.

I turn the circuit off via the breaker, separate wires, turn light circuit back on, and carefully test them for current with a DMM. A shock from 120v 15a/20a hasn't killed me yet.. but avoid touching the hot anyhow. f you have power at the main wire, check the neutral. Work your way to the light until you find the source of the power disconnect.

Keep in mind, there's another method of wiring known as a "Switch Loop". I've had to sort out homes in which the owner assumed the black was hot and white was neutral and just about burnt the home down. A switch loop is no longer considered (code) NEC. There are wiring diagrams in Google seach everywhere that explain things visually. Take a gander at this basic wiring diagram for multiple lights.


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## Snoonyb

Afrowookie said:


> Thanks for the replies, I will check again tomorrow for the wire going out of the box.  I'm assuming I am looking for a black and white wires.  I will try to take a pic again.



You could have 20 black and white wires and until you do a voltage check, you won't know.


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## Afrowookie

I just checked the switches again.  All three switches when metered using my non contact voltage meter have live wires at the bottom, like someone mentioned the top wires of the switches are only live if the switches are turned on.

For the amount of wires I can count 5 sets of wires coming into or going out of that box.  5 X Black, 5 X White, 5 X Copper.  However one set has a Red wire which is not connected to anything.  I don't believe it was even connected to the timer switch I removed because it is very short making it impossible to connect to any other wire.  Plus I 100% sure I did not cut any wires when removing the timer and installing the newer switch.

What does this red wire do?  Should it be connected to something? Here is a pic of what I see.


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## Snoonyb

Thanks.

There several possibilities for the RED conductor, however back to your original problem.

If the RED conductor is not associated with the Romex containing the Black and White conductors that are associated with the 3rd switch, you can ignore it and move to the garage lights to continue your process of elimination involved with a solution.


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## nealtw

As we don't know what some one else did and it did not work for you when you started, the red wire may be important.
So just the switch in question, do both black wires go to their own cable in the back of the box.
Is the red one in one of those cables and if yes, the top or the bottom one.
Is the red wire live?


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## Afrowookie

No, the Red is not live.  So I am guessing the next step like you said is to go out to the lights and check the wiring?  Obviously the lights aren't coming on so no point in checking the if there for voltage at the light socket.  Am I correct? So I should prob open up the fixture and check wire behind?


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## nealtw

The last question was about live or not, how about the other two question.

When you have the lamp open you want to see that all the wires are firm in the connections and yes turn on power and the switch and check for power, if you get power the the indication would a problem with the neutral.
How many cables how many wires and colours.


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## Snoonyb

With the 3rd switch in the off position, remove the fixture closest to the conduit riser and since this is probably the junction box for the other fixture, remove the wire nuts from the black and white conductors and separate them so you can identify the conductors coming from the conduit.

Turn switch #3 on and check for voltage from the black conductor from the conduit to either grnd. or the white conductor from the conduit. You should read 120V from both.


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## Afrowookie

My apologies, I am a little confused.  Are you asking if the black wires connected to the switch in question are going directly to it's own wire bundle?  And if it does go directly to a wire bundle is one of them the bundle with the Red wire?


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## Snoonyb

The black conductor at the bottom of the switch is the hot and comes from the hot pair. The black from the top goes to a cable containing a white and grnd. conductor held in the box by a cable clamp.

Neal's question was is the Red conductor under that same clamp and cable.


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## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> My apologies, I am a little confused.  Are you asking if the black wires connected to the switch in question are going directly to it's own wire bundle?  And if it does go directly to a wire bundle is one of them the bundle with the Red wire?



Ok I will type slower:trophy:

Is the red in one of the cables that have a black attached to the switch

If yes which one.


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## Afrowookie

Hope this pic helps answer your question.


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## nealtw

The red wire is part of the cable that the power goes off with the switch so we will be looking for a red wire in one of the outside lights. If we don't find it there we have another switch somewhere. Or at least something in another box somewhere.


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## Afrowookie

Ok, thanks for all the help so far.  I am learning a lot.  So, my next step is to remove the garage fixtures and look for the wiring especially if the Red wire is there. Will do that tomorrow and let you know the results.


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## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> Ok, thanks for all the help so far.  I am learning a lot.  So, my next step is to remove the garage fixtures and look for the wiring especially if the Red wire is there. Will do that tomorrow and let you know the results.



If that cable is going to the lights there has to be a red wire in there.


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## Snoonyb

How did the disconnected Red conductor in post #31, become connected in post #40?


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> How did the disconnected Red conductor in post #31, become connected in post #40?



I am not seeing that, he said it was short just showing near the clamp. And that is what I see.


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## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> I am not seeing that, he said it was short just showing near the clamp. And that is what I see.



Read the 3rd comment in post #31 and the comment regarding the red conductor in the photo.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> Read the 3rd comment in post #31 and the comment regarding the red conductor in the photo.



Post 40 is confusing I guess I read it the way he meant it.
I read it as the red wire comes from the same cable as the black wire at the top of the switch. Does that make sense.

That is the load wire so there should be a red showing up in one of the light boxes or we will have a mystery.


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## Snoonyb

I think the OP is not quite sure of himself and overly cautious.

This could wined up to be little more than conductors not twisted together in a wirenut.


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## nealtw

:agree:....................


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## afjes_2016

I think maybe you should take a picture of the light fixtures themselves. You said they don't have a sensor. More than likely they may not. Well that is what I thought when I put up an outside light once for a customer. They handed me the light, I took it out of a box that it did not come in. I wired it, put it up and the side of the house by the door, flipped the switch and it did not work. Wow, simple connections. I took the light off and put my meter to the wires, flipped the switch and got 120v. put the light back up and nothing. took the bulb out and put my contact tested up in the fixture socket and no power with switch on. Then all of a sudden it hit me. This is a wall sconce but my eye caught something. It had a small sensor at the top of the light which just looked like the nut to hold the two parts of the fixture together. Duh!!. I put electrical tape over the sensor, flipped the switch and the light went on. Here is something like what I am talking about. Notice the very small sensor at the top of the light. HERE.  Most people are used to looking for large sensors. These small sensors would be built in to the fixture and more than likely if one went bad it would not cause the other light not to work if that had a sensor also.

Also, upon looking at some of the pictures it is hard for me to tell what conductors go where. One thing I did happen to notice is that there are two sets of white bundles wire nutted and two bundles of black wires bundled with wire nuts. This may lead me to think that there are two separate circuits in this box. 

Also the switch on the far right looks like a different type of switch than the other two. Maybe a pic of the back of all the switches may be helpful.

You say there is conduit and it may contain the conductors for the outside lights. If this is the case there may be a junction box somewhere.


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## slownsteady

nealtw said:


> If that cable is going to the lights there has to be a red wire in there.


Not necessarily true. If the red is a runner between two switches, it might not show up at the lights.
OP: Have you simply jumped (bypassed) the switch all together to see if the lights will work?


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## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> Not necessarily true. If the red is a runner between two switches, it might not show up at the lights.
> OP: Have you simply jumped (bypassed) the switch all together to see if the lights will work?



That is my point, if there is no other switches, this red wire will be at one light.


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## slownsteady

nealtw said:


> That is my point, if there is no other switches, this red wire will be at one light.


...assuming that cable goes to the lights in the first place; could be different run.


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## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> ...assuming that cable goes to the lights in the first place; could be different run.



well it is the one that the switch turns on.
There are lot's of possibilities but I wanted to take the OP one step at a time. 

As some one else did work on it before the OP got there and it never worked.
It could be the red wire should be in use.
Perhaps at one time there were two switches and some one killed the second switch.

I am just using the red wire as an identifier and the first obvious place to look for it is in the lights, before we have him open switch boxes all over the house.


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## nealtw

afjes_2016 said:


> I think maybe you should take a picture of the light fixtures themselves. You said they don't have a sensor. More than likely they may not. Well that is what I thought when I put up an outside light once for a customer. They handed me the light, I took it out of a box that it did not come in. I wired it, put it up and the side of the house by the door, flipped the switch and it did not work. Wow, simple connections. I took the light off and put my meter to the wires, flipped the switch and got 120v. put the light back up and nothing. took the bulb out and put my contact tested up in the fixture socket and no power with switch on. Then all of a sudden it hit me. This is a wall sconce but my eye caught something. It had a small sensor at the top of the light which just looked like the nut to hold the two parts of the fixture together. Duh!!. I put electrical tape over the sensor, flipped the switch and the light went on. Here is something like what I am talking about. Notice the very small sensor at the top of the light. HERE.  Most people are used to looking for large sensors. These small sensors would be built in to the fixture and more than likely if one went bad it would not cause the other light not to work if that had a sensor also.
> 
> Also, upon looking at some of the pictures it is hard for me to tell what conductors go where. One thing I did happen to notice is that there are two sets of white bundles wire nutted and two bundles of black wires bundled with wire nuts. This may lead me to think that there are two separate circuits in this box.
> 
> Also the switch on the far right looks like a different type of switch than the other two. Maybe a pic of the back of all the switches may be helpful.
> 
> You say there is conduit and it may contain the conductors for the outside lights. If this is the case there may be a junction box somewhere.



5 cables, 3 switches, so there are 2 supplies.

for switch in question as far as I can figure is power in far right
power out second right with a red wire not in use.


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## Snoonyb

The OP also continues to reference a non contact proximity voltage tester, which he needs to abandon and start using the VOM.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> The OP also continues to reference a non contact proximity voltage tester, which he needs to abandon and start using the VOM.



What question has he had so far that hasn't been answered with what he has?

If he has to look for a mystery wire, a tone and probe would be a better tool.


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## Afrowookie

I read all the posts.  Sorry if I wasn't clear on some stuff like the mentioned post 40.  The wire with the RED has its black wire going to the top of the suspect switch.  That suspect switch is the one on the far right.

I still haven't check the wiring for the lights yet as I worked late today and it's already dark when I got home.  I will try to check tomorrow or on the weekend.

I did however use my non-contact volt checker to check the suspect conduit and coming out of the house and going into the garage.  With the suspect switch in the on position I did not detect any voltage at the mentioned spots on the conduit.  And yes I realize as mentioned I probably shouldn't be using this kind of checker but a multimeter instead.  And maybe the checker I am using is not good enough to detect through the conduit, or it's not the suspect conduit at all.

Here is the conduit I checked.  I should mention that I suspect this conduit because it is the newest looking one and small, so probably was installed after the garage was put up.


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## Afrowookie

To answer another post about the style of lights.  Here it is, it's a little far away but I do not see any sensors on them at all.


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## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> To answer another post about the style of lights.  Here it is, it's a little far away but I do not see any sensors on them at all.



I agree, but the first step is to see if you get power in the box and if the red wire is there.


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## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> What question has he had so far that hasn't been answered with what he has?



A non contact proximity device only indicates the presence of voltage, not it's level or source.



nealtw said:


> If he has to look for a mystery wire, a tone and probe would be a better tool.



Or a VOM.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> A non contact proximity device only indicates the presence of voltage, not it's level or source.
> 
> That you might need if the power at the switch is at the light but still won't light the light, no need yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Or a VOM.



You would be looking for wires in walls, how would you use that?


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## Afrowookie

If I get to that point, tracing wires.  What's the best tool for that job, and can I get one locally?  I am in Ontario.


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## nealtw

Your not there yet. And will likely find what we need with out spending any money.

Just one other thought, by code the lights should be on a different circuit that outlets but check you outlets all over the house and see that they work. If you find some that don't double check for GFCI outlets that might be tripped.


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## Afrowookie

Hmm...good thing you said that, and I probably should've mentioned this before.  When I first turn off the breaker to troubleshoot my light switch, originally I thought it was just for the Parking light, entrance light and porch light. But when my wife came and tried to turn on other lights, we found out that breaker also controlled a receptacle behind a wall of those 3 switches, the kitchen lights and the bathroom lights and receptacle.

How much does this factor into my troubleshooting?


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## nealtw

That looks more like a water line, the next one looks like gas and the one over by the gate would be electrical.


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## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> Hmm...good thing you said that, and I probably should've mentioned this before.  When I first turn off the breaker to troubleshoot my light switch, originally I thought it was just for the Parking light, entrance light and porch light. But when my wife came and tried to turn on other lights, we found out that breaker also controlled a receptacle behind a wall of those 3 switches, the kitchen lights and the bathroom lights and receptacle.
> 
> How much does this factor into my troubleshooting?



Check outlets for a gfci that is tripped.  Out side. kitchen, bathroom.

Nothing should make a difference but strange things do happen.

Do you have outlets under the eaves for xmas lights? on the house or garage.


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## Afrowookie

There is no water going to the garage.  So why would that be a water line?  That conduit from the house looks exactly like another one going into the garage.


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## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> There is no water going to the garage.  So why would that be a water line?  That conduit from the house looks exactly like another one going into the garage.



maybe get a closer picture of the fitting going thru the wall.


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## Afrowookie

Tried to edit my post 65 but it didn't take.

In the bathroom there is a left switch (fan) middle receptacle(GFCI), right swicth(lights).  Occasionally when turning off the fan the receptacle would trip and then the fan and recept. would not work until GCFI rec is reset.  Lights would still work.  It doesn't happen often.  As mentioned earlier they are on he same breaker.


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## Afrowookie

Ok will do.  I will take closer pics of the conduits of the house and garage tomorrow.


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## nealtw

So I think I have it figured out.

When the house was built there was a conduit going to the garage carrying a tree wire to service a inside garage light and maybe an out let with the red wire.
The black wire controlled the lights outside the garage from the switch.

When the breaker box was installed in the garage having two sources of power would be against code so the red wire was killed and all inside lights and outlets are taken from the new breaker box.

So the other end of the red should be found dead in one of the lights or the interior light box or the switch box for those interior lights. or in one of the outlet boxes in the garage.
So a connection for the outside lights could be in any of those places.


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## Afrowookie

That makes sense.  So I guess tomorrow or on the weekend I have some work to do searching for this elusive red wire.  Will let you know of updates.

Thanks.


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## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> That makes sense.  So I guess tomorrow or on the weekend I have some work to do searching for this elusive red wire.  Will let you know of updates.
> 
> Thanks.



The two conduits with big lumps on them where they go into the building are electrical the smaller ones might be ground wires that,  well, go in the ground.


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## Snoonyb

Those "big lumps" are called LB's;http://catalog.pecoelect.com/viewit...s-conduit-bodies-junction-boxes/-lb-fittings?

And the OP can remove the cover to see the conductors contained within.


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## JoeD

> When the breaker box was installed in the garage having two sources of power would be against code



Is the garage detached? That would account for the switch not running to the garage. If the garage is not detached then the double feed rule does not apply.


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## nealtw

JoeD said:


> Is the garage detached? That would account for the switch not running to the garage. If the garage is not detached then the double feed rule does not apply.



Don't usually see underground to an attached:agree:


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## Snoonyb

JoeD said:


> Is the garage detached? That would account for the switch not running to the garage. If the garage is not detached then the double feed rule does not apply.



See post #58.


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## nealtw

JoeD said:


> Is the garage detached? That would account for the switch not running to the garage. If the garage is not detached then the double feed rule does not apply.



I want to figure out what is happening and then get into that.
The lights would be against code and maybe just disconnected before the move to make the house compliant.


----------



## markfothebeast

1. Turn off breaker to Light Circuit. Or suspect breaker circuit(s).

2. Confirm there is no power to switch terminals. Disconnect switch. Confirm there is no power to suspect pair of wires to exterior lights.

3. Remove exterior light(s) to access wires. Confirm there is no power to actual wiring at the light(s).

4. With suspect wiring disconnected between both the switch and light(s) with no live current, wrap the black and white wires together at the light fixture. Set your DMM to continuity or OHMs. Probe the suspect black and white wires in the switch box. If you have a reading of .06 to .08 ohms you have continuity (or you hear an audible beep). If there's a red wire in the light fixture, also test this method with the red wire.


----------



## nealtw

markfothebeast said:


> 1. Turn off breaker to Light Circuit. Or suspect breaker circuit(s).
> 
> 2. Confirm there is no power to switch terminals. Disconnect switch. Confirm there is no power to suspect pair of wires to exterior lights.
> 
> 3. Remove exterior light(s) to access wires. Confirm there is no power to actual wiring at the light(s).
> 
> 4. With suspect wiring disconnected between both the switch and light(s) with no live current, wrap the black and white wires together at the light fixture. Set your DMM to continuity or OHMs. Probe the suspect black and white wires in the switch box. If you have a reading of .06 to .08 ohms you have continuity (or you hear an audible beep). If there's a red wire in the light fixture, also test this method with the red wire.



That's nice. You know what, when the light doesn't come on with the switch.
There is one thing we know for sure there is no continuity.

We also know that if these lights work they are against code. 
So the question will be, what to do to make it code but first you have to know what has been done. We can not cover all the what ifs in one paragraph especially with the experience of the OP.
So let's take it step by step.


----------



## JoeD

> We also know that if these lights work they are against code.


Not if the power source for the lights is in the garage. I believe you are permitted to run a switch leg back to the house for garage lights and it does not count as a second feed to the garage.


----------



## nealtw

JoeD said:


> Not if the power source for the lights is in the garage. I believe you are permitted to run a switch leg back to the house for garage lights and it does not count as a second feed to the garage.



And that might be what the red wire was for, the power in the box turns off with a breaker in the house.

I am thinking there was lights with sensors and the previous owners took them.
And the switch was left there just to fill the hole in the plate.
I just wish people would leave a note by the breaker box  when they leave something that could be a mystery for the next guy.
Like why the red wire is there and why it was cut short.

It should have had a nut on it so a homeowner likely did it, and that makes it open to lot's off possibilities.


----------



## slownsteady

Too many assumptions being made in this thread.
Do we know for a fact that:
1.there is only one hot line in the switch box?
2.that power can be sent to the lights regardless of the condition of any switches (continuity)?
3. that the red wire carries current under any condition (other end connected to something)?

These things can be confirmed easily enough with a piece of spare wire, a couple of wire nuts and a dummy light.


----------



## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> Too many assumptions being made in this thread.
> Do we know for a fact that:
> 1.there is only one hot line in the switch box?
> 2.that power can be sent to the lights regardless of the condition of any switches (continuity)?
> 3. that the red wire carries current under any condition (other end connected to something)?
> 
> These things can be confirmed easily enough with a piece of spare wire, a couple of wire nuts and a dummy light.



Those are all good questions and the answers will come, the OP has limited time after work and before dark and has limited knowledge of this stuff.

So patients is required.


----------



## slownsteady

Thank you doctor.
Patience is also required.


----------



## Afrowookie

Hi just checked the outside garage lights, both of them to see if there is a red wire.  No sign of any red wire.

Also decided to check the two light switches inside the garage.  No sign of any red wire.

Then I remembered out of all the receptacles in the garage there was one that didn't work.  So I decided to check that out as well.  It had two wires connected to top and bottom of that receptacle but it still didn't work. And I didn't see any Red wires in either of the two wires.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> Hi just checked the outside garage lights, both of them to see if there is a red wire.  No sign of any red wire.
> 
> Also decided to check the two light switches inside the garage.  No sign of any red wire.
> 
> Then I remembered out of all the receptacles in the garage there was one that didn't work.  So I decided to check that out as well.  It had two wires connected to top and bottom of that receptacle but it still didn't work. And I didn't see any Red wires in either of the two wires.



Is the garage finished inside.
Did you check the lights for power with the switch turned .


----------



## Afrowookie

To answer your question about the conduits thought to be water lines.  Here are some pics.


----------



## Afrowookie

Yes the garage is completely finished.  Wired, Insulated and with chip board up covering up everything.

Yes checked the lights if there was power there, and No, there was no power at all.


----------



## nealtw

How many cables in each light box?


----------



## slownsteady

Afrowookie said:


> Yes the garage is completely finished.  Wired, Insulated and with chip board up covering up everything.
> 
> Yes checked the lights if there was power there, and No, there was no power at all.


Don't forget you need to check for power under each individual condition switch on, switch off, alt switch on / off, and any combination of switches being on and off. That's why I suggested bypassing any switches and just checking directly.


----------



## afjes_2016

Wow after looking at the condition and installation of those conduit "ELs" (pictures) I dread to even think of how this was wired? Definitely a DIY job; if electrician should have his licensed pulled.

My house did not have ONE device box in it when I first moved in. The guy before me decided to save money on "important" things. All switches and receptacles don't have a device box, just a hole in the wall. Yes!! believe it.

Sorry, back to issue at hand. Something does not seem right here.


----------



## nealtw

afjes_2016 said:


> Wow after looking at the condition and installation of those conduit "ELs" (pictures) I dread to even think of how this was wired? Definitely a DIY job; if electrician should have his licensed pulled.
> 
> My house did not have ONE device box in it when I first moved in. The guy before me decided to save money on "important" things. All switches and receptacles don't have a device box, just a hole in the wall. Yes!! believe it.
> 
> Sorry, back to issue at hand. Something does not seem right here.



Post 89, ground wires back to the house???


----------



## Afrowookie

The pic shown, was the left light it had two cables.  The right light one only had one cable to it.

If you see post 58 with the pic of the garage conduits.  To me there appears to be 3 conduits and looks professionally done except for the one in question, which unlike the other two bigger ones have no box on it.  So it looks like it was done later.  That's just my guess.


----------



## nealtw

I think you need to rent or buy one of these tone and probe.
Then you could trace where the red wire goes, the light wires go and the wires in the dead outlet go.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apIpHPgkevQ[/ame]


----------



## Afrowookie

I actually thought about buying one before to do this but I didn't know if this kind of told was the correct one to get for my problem.

This was the one I looking to get an couple of weeks ago at Canadian Tire.  Is this right kind of tool I need?  If so is this one good?

http://www.sperryinstruments.com/en/products/tracers/wire-tracers


----------



## afjes_2016

Afrowookie: the lights are daisy chained. First light two cables, the next, just one cable. Did you take the first fixture off and test with a meter to see if any power at all? If they are daisy chained then if first fixture has no power then the second won't for sure.

Back to red wire. If it was cut short and tucked back in the box more than likely it had nothing to do with this "set up". Maybe just extra ?/3 the guy had laying around and used that instead of ?/2.

The garage being finished does not help either.
Afrowookie is there attic access above the garage? Maybe a junction box up there. Is there an attic space above the garage?

Again are you sure you checked the entire house for GFCI receptacles? Every single one? Even one hidden behind something in the garage, in the basement, outside along the side of the house, in a bathroom? Everywhere!!? I have found GFCIs in areas that customers did not even know they had them after living in the house for years.

Also remember if you find a GFCI that won't reset it is because there is no power to it (or the GFCI is faulty). I have had customers that could not reset a GFCI because there was no power but because it was controlled by a light switch. If the light switch if off when it tripped and when you try to reset it then it won't reset because the switch is not allowing power to get to the GFCI.


----------



## nealtw

Home depot carries the same one.
https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.sperry-lan-tracker-wire-tracer.1001012102.html

I have never used one so don't know. I would give it a try, just make sure you turn everything off before you hook it up


----------



## nealtw

afjes_2016 said:


> Afrowookie: the lights are daisy chained. First light two cables, the next, just one cable. Did you take the first fixture off and test with a meter to see if any power at all? If they are daisy chained then if first fixture has no power then the second won't for sure.
> 
> Back to red wire. If it was cut short and tucked back in the box more than likely it had nothing to do with this "set up". Maybe just extra ?/3 the guy had laying around and used that instead of ?/2.
> 
> The garage being finished does not help either.
> Afrowookie is there attic access above the garage? Maybe a junction box up there. Is there an attic space above the garage?
> 
> Again are you sure you checked the entire house for GFCI receptacles? Every single one? Even one hidden behind something in the garage, in the basement, outside along the side of the house, in a bathroom? Everywhere!!? I have found GFCIs in areas that customers did not even know they had them after living in the house for years.
> 
> Also remember if you find a GFCI that won't reset it is because there is no power to it (or the GFCI is faulty). I have had customers that could not reset a GFCI because there was no power but because it was controlled by a light switch. If the light switch if off when it tripped and when you try to reset it then it won't reset because the switch is not allowing power to get to the GFCI.



We were using the red just for identification of the same cable. AS it hasn't showed up in the garage that cable could be going anywhere.


----------



## afjes_2016

nealtw said:


> We were using the red just for identification of the same cable. AS it hasn't showed up in the garage that cable could be going anywhere.



Ah, understand now where you are coming from.  

Three things then. 
#1-Is there a junction box somewhere then;attic, garage, basement etc?
#2-The switch box. All the pics i have seen are hard to trace the wires from switch to switch and to wire nut etc.
#3-Tripped GFCI somewhere.


----------



## Afrowookie

afjes_2016

For the lights I kinda figured they were daisy chained.  I checked the light with the 2 wires and no power to either.  I did check the other light too just to be sure. Also no power.

As for the access in the garage attic.  There is no access.  The only way I have to the ceiling or walls of the garage is to start removing the chip boards and they are not screwed in, they are all nailed in.

I believe I only have one GFCI receptacle in the whole house, none inside/outside of the garage.  The one in the house is working, it just trips from time to time.  And like you said maybe it's starting to fail.  But it does always reset.  I will check outside and around the house again tomorrow, but I am sure there are no more GFCI receptacles.


----------



## Afrowookie

I will get one this weekend and see if it will work for me.

But before I get one I will look around the house at other switches to see if I can find this elusive red wire.

And definitely check around the outside of house again for GFCI receptacles, but I don't expect to find any.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> I will get one this weekend and see if it will work for me.
> 
> But before I get one I will look around the house at other switches to see if I can find this elusive red wire.
> 
> And definitely check around the outside of house again for GFCI receptacles, but I don't expect to find any.



Soffet outlet would be my guess.


----------



## Afrowookie

I have no soffit outlets, that are visible anyways.


----------



## slownsteady

The other end of that red wire may not go to a switch, but could be in a junction box, if Afjes is right about it being just a remnant. If you know what circuit it is on and if the jboxes have any indication of what circuit they're on, then you can limit your search to those boxes. But somehow i doubt that it would be that easy


----------



## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> The other end of that red wire may not go to a switch, but could be in a junction box, if Afjes is right about it being just a remnant. If you know what circuit it is on and if the jboxes have any indication of what circuit they're on, then you can limit your search to those boxes. But somehow i doubt that it would be that easy



Yeah that's why I said to go with a tracer.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> I have no soffit outlets, that are visible anyways.



Front door closet light with bulb missing?:rofl:


----------



## Afrowookie

I do not have a light fixture in my front closet.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> I do not have a light fixture in my front closet.



I didn't think so.:trophy:


----------



## Snoonyb

Afrowookie said:


> I actually thought about buying one before to do this but I didn't know if this kind of told was the correct one to get for my problem.
> 
> This was the one I looking to get an couple of weeks ago at Canadian Tire.  Is this right kind of tool I need?  If so is this one good?
> 
> http://www.sperryinstruments.com/en/products/tracers/wire-tracers



Before you spend money on this or a similar device, you need to understand that this is an end too end tester and as the video states, will not work for finding conductors inside wall cavities.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> Before you spend money on this or a similar device, you need to understand that this is an end too end tester and as the video states, will not work for finding conductors inside wall cavities.



Ooo, good catch, we do want one that will read thru the wall.
That would explain the cheap price.:thbup:


----------



## Snoonyb

In the same sentence he recommends a circuit tracer for behind walls and subterranean.

More $$$$$$$$$$$.


----------



## Kabris

That conduit coming from your house to your garage looks suspect. No proper condulet bodies were used. Does that wire come into the basement of your house and can you see what it is? 

As far as your switch bank in your garage, it appears no conduits enter the box directly, it is all Romex. 

I'm wondering if the previous homeowner wanted a 3 way setup to control the garage lights from the house and the garage, but after inspection tried to abandon that setup and put it on a single pole in the garage. That would account for your cut red wire. I would see if you have a 3 wire w/ ground inside your house where that conduit enters.


----------



## nealtw

Kabris said:


> That conduit coming from your house to your garage looks suspect. No proper condulet bodies were used. Does that wire come into the basement of your house and can you see what it is?
> 
> As far as your switch bank in your garage, it appears no conduits enter the box directly, it is all Romex.
> 
> I'm wondering if the previous homeowner wanted a 3 way setup to control the garage lights from the house and the garage, but after inspection tried to abandon that setup and put it on a single pole in the garage. That would account for your cut red wire. I would see if you have a 3 wire w/ ground inside your house where that conduit enters.



Did you see all the photos in post 58.


----------



## Kabris

Yes, it's that newest looking conduit. I'm wondering if there's a 3 wire w/ ground in that conduit.


----------



## Afrowookie

Kabris,

I am not sure if that wire is going into the basement.  It is right at the level where if it's in the basement it is probably at the high part of the basement.  And when looking in the basement near my panel and where the wire may be coming in, I cannot see anything because everything is covered up by insulation or a wall.  So in other words I just can't tell.

I doubt that those lights were controlled by a switch in the garage.  Reasons being are; 

1)In the garage there are only 2 switches.  

One for the internal garage lights. The second switch is for the floodlights at the rear of the garage. If I just wanted to turn on the front garage lights to light up the driveway all night, that means with the switches in the garage I would either have to have the interior lights or the floodlights at the back on all night also.  That makes no sense.

2) I have only one other switch anywhere else either inside or outside the house/garage which does not seem to do anything.  The only other thing that does not work and appears to have no control for it are those front garage lights.  Also that suspect switch originally was a programmable timer switch.  Since my porch light is a from dusk to dawn with sensor light and has its own switch, the only other reason why the original switch would have a timer was to control the front garage lights that light up the driveway.

3) I am not a genius nor am I an electrician, but knowing that I only have "one" switch that doesn't work, I also have "one" or in this case two fixtures that do not work.  So even with my limited knowledge, my powers of deduction tells me that, that switch is for those lights.  Until I can prove otherwise.

So maybe whoever installed it either they wired it wrong, or abandoned the project and it never worked in the first place.  I don't know.  At this point I just want to find out where the other end of the wire goes, either from the lights back, or from the switch forward.

Side note, I researched the circuit tracers that can do open/closed and in-wall checks, they are like $600+.  So those are out of the question.  So that means I am down to getting a wire tracer that does the tone but I am beginning to think that it won't be good enough.


----------



## nealtw

I thought like you it was maybe a three way or another wire for outlets or something, but we didn't find the third wire in the light.
But then he found one outlet in the garage that did not work. It had two cables in it which means the connection is somewhere else. 
Perhaps a hidden junction box.


----------



## Afrowookie

Maybe, but how can I find out without tearing down walls?  Is there an inexpensive tool that can help me do this.

I did find some circuit tracers for around $200+, but I'm not sure if it'll help my case.  

I am willing to spend about 200-250.  I just want to get this resolved.


----------



## Kabris

I know this can be frustrating, especially when these wires are buried in the walls. The fact that there is a 3 wire w/ ground at the switch and a suspect conduit going to the house tells me you may be feeding an abandoned 3 way switch in your house. That conduit is a botched DIY for sure, and was definitely added later. This switch may have been removed in a switch box and the wire still there. But if there is a way to see that wire inside your house could help. It would make sense to me that the previous homeowner may have added those garage lights after the garage was built, and may have wanted to switch them from the house and the garage.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> Maybe, but how can I find out without tearing down walls?  Is there an inexpensive tool that can help me do this.
> 
> I did find some circuit tracers for around $200+, but I'm not sure if it'll help my case.
> 
> I am willing to spend about 200-250.  I just want to get this resolved.



Do you have an automatic garage door opener?


----------



## Afrowookie

Maybe.

Should I get the Sperry Wire Tracer, it's $50?  Maybe I can use to see if the switch wire goes to the dead receptacle?  If that's the case maybe I just have to replace receptacle?


----------



## Kabris

You said there is no 3 wire w/ground at the receptacle. 

At the conduits it looks as if the homeowner caulked around or sprayed foam around the wire, I would see what that wire is IMO.


----------



## nealtw

It won't help if you can't find the other end of the same wire.
I would be checking all the rental outfits to see if I could rent a unit.
Either that or open ever box in the garage to look for that red wire.


----------



## nealtw

Kabris said:


> You said there is no 3 wire w/ground at the receptacle.
> 
> At the conduits it looks as if the homeowner caulked around or sprayed foam around the wire, I would see what that wire is IMO.



OK, you guys keep thinking that the ground wire is some kind of cable.

Let's prove this one way or the other.

Turn off the main for the panel in the garage and take the cover off the garage panel and find the wires coming in and the ground coming in and take pictures of both.


----------



## Afrowookie

Ok, I am going to triple check every single switch and receptacle I can find inside/outside the house/garage.

Then I am going to remove the GFCI's to look for this red wire.  I am also going to replace the one receptacle in the garage that I found isn't working.  Cheap fix.

I am starting to think that receptacle is the culprit.  Why?  Just by looking at the suspect wire coming into the garage and where it enters is somewhat close to that receptacle.  That receptacle's location is right at the front of the garage, and very close to the outside garage lights.

Could it be that the house switch's wires go from house to the garage receptacle and then from the receptacle it powers the outside garage lights?


----------



## nealtw

Yes it is possible it went anywhere in the garage.

This video shows how the sub panel is wired, pay attention to what the wire conduits look like and that there is a ground wire for that sub panel
.[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suf9F2Hev50[/ame]


----------



## Afrowookie

I will look for what you mentioned after work today.  Can't watch video right now at work.


----------



## nealtw

You have two of these going into the garage, the smaller one should be your light wire, take the cover off and confirm it contains a cable or just stranded wires.


----------



## nealtw

When looking for the red wire, be real careful as it could have been cut off really short and hard to see..

Is the cable you are finding in the garage the same black cable with the paper wrapping in it?


----------



## Snoonyb

KISS Principal!

!3pg's of guesses.

Add an extension box to a knockout of either of the outside fixtures you are attempting to energize, run EMT or wire mold to a known power source, switch or receptacle, add an extension to the exterior fixture and a motion/darkness sensor.

Problem solved.

At the switch in question wirenut the suspect conductor, stuff the in the box and install a 2 switch/blank cover plate.

DONE!


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> Maybe.
> 
> Should I get the Sperry Wire Tracer, it's $50?  Maybe I can use to see if the switch wire goes to the dead receptacle?  If that's the case maybe I just have to replace receptacle?



When you found the bad outlet, did you make sure the power was on at the switch inside and the switch was turned on?


----------



## Afrowookie

Yes I have a garage door opener.

Sorry haven't had a chance to look at anything else today. Very cold outside.


----------



## Afrowookie

Honestly can't remember if the switch was on when I check the suspect outlet.  But I will make sure it's on tomorrow when I check it.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> Honestly can't remember if the switch was on when I check the suspect outlet.  But I will make sure it's on tomorrow when I check it.



You are using a little cheater to find if you have power.
Do you have to touch the metal or is it one that will work if you are just close?


----------



## nealtw

With one of these you can find power in the wall
https://www.delcity.net/store/Adjus...p_kw=&mp_mt=&gclid=CMCGoaeK8NECFUSXfgodYPAHNQ

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUw79RJMj-g[/ame]


----------



## Snoonyb

"With one of these you can find power in the wall", actually they do not, they are the typical non-contact tester the OP has been using.

The SPERRY has a disclaimer referencing conduit, metal clad and grounded encl.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> "With one of these you can find power in the wall", actually they do not, they are the typical non-contact tester the OP has been using.
> 
> The SPERRY has a disclaimer referencing conduit, metal clad and grounded encl.



Looking in the box where the switch is, there does not appear to have conduit.
The caps can be opened where the conduit comes out of the house and into the garage. 

Yes no?


----------



## Afrowookie

Yes there are caps.  And yes I have a tester like that, but a cheaper version.

Sorry about not posting any results yet from findings in the garage.  I haven't done it yet because I been  a little under the weather.  I probably won't get to it till the weekend.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> Yes there are caps.  And yes I have a tester like that, but a cheaper version.
> 
> Sorry about not posting any results yet from findings in the garage.  I haven't done it yet because I been  a little under the weather.  I probably won't get to it till the weekend.



Not a problem, I was just thinking if you open those caps you might find wires instead of a cable or test there for power, if there is no power there, there may be a problem under ground or in the house. Instead of taking the garage apart looking for something that might not be there.
And that tester looked cheap enough.
Hope you feel better soon.


----------



## Afrowookie

I did look under the caps before, can't tell the colour of the wires because they have black shrink wrap or some kind of protective wrap on them. But I will check it for power.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> I did look under the caps before, can't tell the colour of the wires because they have black shrink wrap or some kind of protective wrap on them. But I will check it for power.



The cable should look like the stuff in the switch box or there would have to be a junction box some where.

Remember if you are checking for power like that, turn off the garage feed at the main breaker box and only supply power at the switch so you would know what ever you find would be the right one.


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> Looking in the box where the switch is, there does not appear to have conduit.
> The caps can be opened where the conduit comes out of the house and into the garage.
> 
> Yes no?



If you mean the "big lumps" clarified in post #75, them yes those proximity testers will detect the presence of voltage.

And now that he has removed the LB covers, and found what he assumes is a black wrapped cable, which may in fact be plain romex.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> If you mean the "big lumps" clarified in post #75, them yes those proximity testers will detect the presence of voltage.
> 
> And now that he has removed the LB covers, and found what he assumes is a black wrapped cable, which may in fact be plain romex.



Shorten the hunt if he can prove the power actually reaches the garage or not.


----------



## Snoonyb

There will be power there, but I doubt it will be from the switch.

However, if there is power from that breaker he will than have to find it in the garage.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> There will be power there, but I doubt it will be from the switch.
> 
> However, if there is power from that breaker he will than have to find it in the garage.



That would be easy to prove with switch on, switch off.

Kinda think, it was disconnected when the 220 line was put in. And there might be another problem in the garage. But that is just guessing.


----------



## Snoonyb

With just the main and that single breaker on.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> With just the main and that single breaker on.



That was my plan, I think I said that earlier.


----------



## Snoonyb

Actually you alluded to, but weren't that specific.

The OP needs to understand that of all the breakers in the house need to be off, and only the main and that breaker controlling those switches, on.


----------



## slownsteady

The shrink wrap may be there to indicate that the wire was part of a switch leg. When a white wire is used to complete a leg, and it carries current, it should be colored black. Shrink wrap is a good way to do that.


----------



## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> The shrink wrap may be there to indicate that the wire was part of a switch leg. When a white wire is used to complete a leg, and it carries current, it should be colored black. Shrink wrap is a good way to do that.



We are looking for the same cloth covered romex that is at the switch box in the house or we are playing in the wrong park.:rofl:


----------



## slownsteady

I'm not arguing that. When the OP looked at the ends (caps) he found a shrink wrapped wire. I did not get the impression he was referring to the sheathing or even mentioning if it was romex.


----------



## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> I'm not arguing that. When the OP looked at the ends (caps) he found a shrink wrapped wire. I did not get the impression he was referring to the sheathing or even mentioning if it was romex.



The OP thinks the switch should turn on the lights on the garage, with a breaker box in the garage, the switch with power coming from the house would be against code. So I would not be surprised to find anything.

If we can prove the wires don't go out there, perhaps we can figure out what has been disconnected in the garage and then do a wireless switch or something.

With close to 50 years of home owners doing things, it's not my nature to leave mysteries in walls.


----------



## Afrowookie

I'm back with another update.

Still haven't done anything yet.  Still sick but almost back to 100%.

Plus storm is called for tomorrow afternoon with a lot of freezing rain expected, so I doubt I will get anything done.  Ho hum!


----------



## slownsteady

Hang in there, AW. We'll be here when you're ready.


----------



## Afrowookie

I'm back, finally.  That was one hell of a cold.  Still not a 100%.  But any who, I did more investigating of the garage and house.  Here is what I found.

Out of the 3 conduits going into the garage, only one had power going to it.  Opened the caps from the conduit boxes and this is what I saw.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> I'm back, finally.  That was one hell of a cold.  Still not a 100%.  But any who, I did more investigating of the garage and house.  Here is what I found.
> 
> Out of the 3 conduits going into the garage, only one had power going to it.  Opened the caps from the conduit boxes and this is what I saw.



Have another look at the wrap on the outside of the cable, I could be wrong but the one in the conduit does not look like the same as the one in the switch box. 
If they are a different cable there must be another junction box in the house or it goes to it's own breaker. 

Whether you find it or not, it should not be there anyway as it is against code to have two supplies to the out building.

You could have a junction somewhere, basement, crawlspace even in a another switch box or outlet box.


----------



## nealtw

Just a stab in the dark: open the light switch  for the back door outside light and see what wires you have there.


----------



## Afrowookie

You mean the lights at the back of the garage?


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> You mean the lights at the back of the garage?



No I was just thinking there may have been a 3 way switch so the garage lights could be turned on and off at both doors of the house .
And maybe all lights worked together at one time.


----------



## Afrowookie

You may be right, but I don't think so since the garage only has two switches.  But I will check tomorrow any how to confirm.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> You may be right, but I don't think so since the garage only has two switches.  But I will check tomorrow any how to confirm.



Back door of house?


----------



## Afrowookie

I have a back door that goes to the back deck.  It has a switch for the deck floodlights and also turns on/off a GFCI Receptacles.  This one is closer to the garage.

I also have a back door to go to back yard.  It has 3 switches. 1)  Basement light, 2) the landing light where the door is, and 3) back door flood light


----------



## nealtw

I don't think you found that red wire in the garage so it goes somewhere.
I could see that maybe some one set up so the lights could be turned off at front and back doors. It would make sense that you may want to turn off the lights at the front door when company leaves or when you come home from work and come in the back door.
So I would be opening up anything back there. Most likely would be on the same circuit.


----------



## Afrowookie

I see your logic in using the back doors, but this is not the case for my house.  If you seen the layout of my property you would also agree that the only logical and most convenient way to enter/exit the house is via front door.

Also all other light switches near the back doors as well as the switch in the garage all operate separate flood lights, to me it makes no sense that if I wanted my garage lights on to light up the driveway I would have to have a floodlight on as well that would light up some part of the rear of the house.

I only want the front of the garage/driveway lit up, and not anywhere at the back of the house.  The way the switches you mentioned that may be a 3 way switch are all wired


----------



## Snoonyb

AGAIN! See post #131.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> I see your logic in using the back doors, but this is not the case for my house.  If you seen the layout of my property you would also agree that the only logical and most convenient way to enter/exit the house is via front door.
> 
> Also all other light switches near the back doors as well as the switch in the garage all operate separate flood lights, to me it makes no sense that if I wanted my garage lights on to light up the driveway I would have to have a floodlight on as well that would light up some part of the rear of the house.
> 
> I only want the front of the garage/driveway lit up, and not anywhere at the back of the house.  The way the switches you mentioned that may be a 3 way switch are all wired



We don't care, we just want to find the wire.


----------



## bud16415

Afrowookie


I haven&#8217;t been following your thread and I remember reading your first post and how nice it was you had a clear concise explanation of your problem and had already answered all the normal questions I would have asked. Here we are 17 pages later and still no resolution to your problem????

I&#8217;m not going to read all the in between posts right now, but we need to get this figured out. 

We have wires on one end in the house. We have lights at the other end. We may or may not have another switch out in the garage. We had a timer before that kind of tells me it wasn&#8217;t a 3-way but still not sure. The idea was I assume the timer would be set in the house and the lights would come on and off with the timer and could also be turned on if needed when the timer was set to be off. You suspected the timer was bad and all you wanted was an on and off switch. So you put one in using what you thought were the timers in and out switched legs and you were left with the power leg that ran the timer. The switch on the right is the one we are talking about. We don&#8217;t care about the rest of the wires just the ones that were hooked to the timer and the ones you used and didn&#8217;t use when replacing it with a switch. 

So for a switch to work it has to have power coming to one side of it and the other side gets power to it when the switch is closed. 
Is that the case now? 

The reason I&#8217;m going back to the switch is analytic troubleshooting says if something was working and you said you were pretty sure it was when you bought the house and then something was changed as in the switch for the timer, then the likelihood of the problem is at the place of change. That doesn&#8217;t mean that is the problem as your timer could have been fine and a wire failed but the likely hood is it is in that Jbox.


----------



## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> Afrowookie
> 
> 
> I havent been following your thread and I remember reading your first post and how nice it was you had a clear concise explanation of your problem and had already answered all the normal questions I would have asked. Here we are 17 pages later and still no resolution to your problem????
> 
> Im not going to read all the in between posts right now, but we need to get this figured out.
> 
> We have wires on one end in the house. We have lights at the other end. We may or may not have another switch out in the garage. We had a timer before that kind of tells me it wasnt a 3-way but still not sure. The idea was I assume the timer would be set in the house and the lights would come on and off with the timer and could also be turned on if needed when the timer was set to be off. You suspected the timer was bad and all you wanted was an on and off switch. So you put one in using what you thought were the timers in and out switched legs and you were left with the power leg that ran the timer. The switch on the right is the one we are talking about. We dont care about the rest of the wires just the ones that were hooked to the timer and the ones you used and didnt use when replacing it with a switch.
> 
> So for a switch to work it has to have power coming to one side of it and the other side gets power to it when the switch is closed.
> Is that the case now?
> 
> The reason Im going back to the switch is analytic troubleshooting says if something was working and you said you were pretty sure it was when you bought the house and then something was changed as in the switch for the timer, then the likelihood of the problem is at the place of change. That doesnt mean that is the problem as your timer could have been fine and a wire failed but the likely hood is it is in that Jbox.



We can turn on the switch and he checked it and it works. the problem is we have no idea where the wire goes.

We can quickly identify the wire if we find the other end as it will contain a three wire and then prove it is the same wire.

The wire going to the garage in the conduit does not look like it has the same jacket and he has not found a cable with a red wire in the garage.

So the other end of the cable with 3 wires is in the house. We can find a solution to making a switch work with in code. 
But I at least want to know that this cable has been disconnected properly.


----------



## Snoonyb

Open the switch box and put a wirenut on it.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> You may be right, but I don't think so since the garage only has two switches.  But I will check tomorrow any how to confirm.



Turn off the breaker and find everything in the house that is also turned off.
And open things up until you find the red wire, then we we will prove it is the same wire. 
Only then we can go ahead.


----------



## bud16415

nealtw said:


> Turn off the breaker and find everything in the house that is also turned off.
> And open things up until you find the red wire, then we we will prove it is the same wire.
> Only then we can go ahead.



What photo in what post shows this red wire? I cant find it.


----------



## Snoonyb

bud16415 said:


> What photo in what post shows this red wire? I cant find it.



Posts #31 & #40


----------



## bud16415

Snoonyb said:


> Posts #31 & #40



Thanks      :thbup:


----------



## nealtw

This gets better every day,IF you like a mystery!!
Every picture added adds more questions.

Every answer to those questions add more questions.

Observations so far.

Romex in the house has fabric jacket, I think it is older than Vinyl siding

Cables going to the garage have vinyl jackets, so the garage was not wired when the house was built.

A third conduit at the garage, I thought would be the ground for the sub panel, but it does not appear to have that ground in the box.

Why would someone move the sub in order to hang drywall and expose the cables.

4 white cables in the sub panel and 4 breakers but it appears only 3 breakers are in use.

Back to the house.

More than one wire coming to the switch box with power on the same breaker, strange?

Cable operated by switch has extra red wire, could mean a three way switch or split outlet.

If vinyl siding was added later it could be hiding a junction box on the outside of house.

I am thinking that sounder although expensive may be the only tool to have that will allow the OP to map the whole system and answer all the questions so he can know for sure everything is done correctly and safe for him and his family.


----------



## Afrowookie

Update,

Sorry haven't had time yet to look at all the switches and receptacles yet.

Been sick for about a week and now it's snowing like crazy and trying to catch up on clearing snow.

Hopefully will get time later this week.  I want to look for what nealtw said.  I will turn off the breaker and everything that that breaker turns off I will remove and look for that elusive red wire.  Then I will get back with results.

Thanks for your patience and help.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> Update,
> 
> Sorry haven't had time yet to look at all the switches and receptacles yet.
> 
> Been sick for about a week and now it's snowing like crazy and trying to catch up on clearing snow.
> 
> Hopefully will get time later this week.  I want to look for what nealtw said.  I will turn off the breaker and everything that that breaker turns off I will remove and look for that elusive red wire.  Then I will get back with results.
> 
> Thanks for your patience and help.



When you had the lights open at the front of the garage. What was the cable.
White vinyl covered
black vinyl covered
cloth covered like the the switch box in the house


----------



## Afrowookie

White Vinyl covered


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> White Vinyl covered



It appears you have gas running to the garage, is there a heater out there and can you turn that off from the house?


----------



## Afrowookie

Yes I have a gas heater out in the garage.  The breaker is in the garage. The panel in the garage has breakers one for heater, 2 x outlets, and one for the garage inside lights.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> Yes I have a gas heater out in the garage.  The breaker is in the garage. The panel in the garage has breakers one for heater, 2 x outlets, and one for the garage inside lights.



I was thinking of maybe a low voltage switch like a thermostat wire, running back to the house in the unexplained conduit.


----------



## Afrowookie

Hi again,

Sorry it took so long for me to get back with my findings. I have been busier than I thought.  Any who, I did a little more investigating and this is what I found yesterday.

So before I said I thought the wire with the red from the suspect switch at the house was going to the non working receptacle in the garage.  After reinspecting the wires at both the switch and the receptacle I noticed that the copper wires at both ends were of different gauges.  The switch side with the red had bigger copper wire and insulation and the part was off-white or older looking than the garage receptacle side.  That side the wires were the same size as the majority of the wiring throughout the house switches and receptacles and the color was much whiter and cleaner looking than the switch side.  Which to me indicates newer wiring.

So now I am lost as to what goes to the garage.  Looks like I have to open everything up in the house to first find this red wire part to eliminate it and to at least see where it goes and then try to look for the receptacle wires.


----------



## nealtw

I think you will find the rid wire goes to an outlet in the living room. The garage is a different problem but best we find that red wire first.


----------



## Afrowookie

Ok, probably tomorrow I will start opening up switches around the house.


----------



## Afrowookie

Back again, sorry again for taking so long with results, just very busy.

So after the suggestion about trying to find the other end of the red wire to that switch and to first look on the same circuit for that red wire.  Here is the what I found.  I did find 3 red wires on two separate switch boxes.  Upon further investigation on the red wire hooked up to the no-working suspect garage light switch, I noticed that wire has the green fabric looking sheathing on the outside(older wiring).  Also the white, black, and red wires that come from it are all bigger gauge than the rest of the wiring in that switch box or for any other switch box from what I can see.

So far all wiring I have seen so far have all the same size/gauge of wiring except for that wiring going to suspect switch, which leads me to think that wiring is not on the same circuit but may go somewhere else in the house.  I see a lot of green fabric type wires going into the breaker panel.

Anywho attached are the pics of the red wiring on the two other switch boxes that I found.  What do you think? And where should I go from here?








Forgot to mention that red wire found going to the flood light switch to the rear of house also have the green fabric sheathing but the wire gauge is like all the rest = smaller.


----------



## nealtw

So you never found the green cable with the red wire anywhere?
There are a few reasons for using a three wire including a red. But you are correct in looking for the one with green fabric.

If you have any breakers that are 20 amp, they would require and bigger wire.
15 amp breakers feed 14 gauge wire and 20 amp feed 12 gauge.
12 is bigger than 14.

It may not mean anything as there would be no rule on over sized wire.

The green wrap on your cable indicates that it would have been original to the house and all the cable that has vinyl wrap is newer.

We have not seen the older wire in the garage.

Where is the breaker box?


----------



## Snoonyb

The 14/3 in your photos may be a 3 way switch arrangement mentioned in post #18.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> Back again, sorry again for taking so long with results, just very busy.
> 
> So after the suggestion about trying to find the other end of the red wire to that switch and to first look on the same circuit for that red wire.  Here is the what I found.  I did find 3 red wires on two separate switch boxes.  Upon further investigation on the red wire hooked up to the no-working suspect garage light switch, I noticed that wire has the green fabric looking sheathing on the outside(older wiring).  Also the white, black, and red wires that come from it are all bigger gauge than the rest of the wiring in that switch box or for any other switch box from what I can see.
> 
> So far all wiring I have seen so far have all the same size/gauge of wiring except for that wiring going to suspect switch, which leads me to think that wiring is not on the same circuit but may go somewhere else in the house.  I see a lot of green fabric type wires going into the breaker panel.
> 
> Anywho attached are the pics of the red wiring on the two other switch boxes that I found.  What do you think? And where should I go from here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Forgot to mention that red wire found going to the flood light switch to the rear of house also have the green fabric sheathing but the wire gauge is like all the rest = smaller.



Picture didn't show up earlier.

Everything in all three boxes go off with one 15 amp breaker?


----------



## Afrowookie

Breaker box is in the basement.  Is it safe to open the box up and just take a look to see if I can see this 12 gauge wire?  I am sure if that's the next step then I should turn off main breaker first before doing anything near the breaker panel.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> Breaker box is in the basement.  Is it safe to open the box up and just take a look to see if I can see this 12 gauge wire?  I am sure if that's the next step then I should turn off main breaker first before doing anything near the breaker panel.



Take a few pictures while you have it open.


----------



## slownsteady

It is generally safe to take off the cover and look inside your service panel. There are a few things to remember though:
Even if you shut off the main breaker, the large wires leading to it are still HOT!
Do not reach in unless you are confident in what you are trying to do.
General advice has always been to empty your pockets of anything conductive....just in case.
And I have been told that it is good practice to place a board on the floor in front of the box and stand on that......again, just in case.

All that being said, you can usually see where the wires lead - to which breakers - without having to fish around in there. You will probably want to check the 20 amp breakers first, because they should have the thicker 12 gauge wire.
The red wire may not show up in the service panel. It may have been a runner between a light and a switch.
I think I remember you saying that the original red wire was cut short and not connected to anything; did you you ever test it for current? Because the ones in your pix today are connected....


----------



## nealtw

Do you have access to this stuff in the basement so you can see where it all goes, junction boxes anything?


----------



## Afrowookie

Here is the pic of what my breaker panel in the basement looks like.  As you can see, the big gray wire to the 60 amp breaker appears to be going to the garage.  My pic of the big conduit going into garage when panel on the box was removed I see a big gray wire.  Also the panel in the garage had gray wire going to it and connected to 4 X 15 amp breakers.

Now for the bigger gauge wire that was connected to the non-working switch.  I only see one set of wires that resemble the wires connected to that switch and it's they are the ones connected to the 30 amp breaker in the pic.

Doesn't make sense to me that only one light switch would be connected to a 30 amp breaker.  What's my next step now?


----------



## afjes_2016

Afrowookie said:


> Here is the pic of what my breaker panel in the basement looks like.  As you can see, the big gray wire to the 60 amp breaker appears to be going to the garage... Doesn't make sense to me that only one light switch would be connected to a 30 amp breaker.



Only from what I can see from the picture this appears to be a sub-panel as it looks as though the ground bars are separated from the neutral bars. I can't see if there i a bond between the two anywhere from this picture. If this is a sub-panel you may have another one somewhere else in the house.

If you think this panel feeds the garage then shut off the breaker you believe goes to the garage (I would think the 60amp) and see if you lose power in the garage then.

Also, a light switch should not be running off of a 30amp breaker; well technically anyway. Why do you believe a light switch if running off a 30amp breaker?


----------



## Afrowookie

That is the only panel in the house.  I think that the wires coming from 30amp breaker might be the wires going to a switch that doesn't work in my house.  This switch I think controls the exterior garage lights.  It had a timer switch before but I swapped it out with a normal switch.  There is power going to it but still the switch seems to do nothing and the garage lights never come on.

I was asked to open the panel to try and look for this wire.  The wires I am looking for are a little bigger gauge than all the rest of the wires in that circuit, like the ones on the 30amp breaker.  But after inspection it appears that the wires from the switch might be going somewhere else, maybe a junction box instead of straight to the panel.  

Now where do I go from here?  I am beginning to think I need some sort of wire tracer, the one that can detect through walls for my problem.


----------



## afjes_2016

Afrowookie said:


> That is the only panel in the house.  I think that the wires coming from 30amp breaker might be the wires going to a switch that doesn't work in my house.  This switch I think controls the exterior garage lights.  It had a timer switch before but I swapped it out with a normal switch.  There is power going to it but still the switch seems to do nothing and the garage lights never come on.
> 
> I was asked to open the panel to try and look for this wire.  The wires I am looking for are a little bigger gauge than all the rest of the wires in that circuit, like the ones on the 30amp breaker.  But after inspection it appears that the wires from the switch might be going somewhere else, maybe a junction box instead of straight to the panel.
> 
> Now where do I go from here?  I am beginning to think I need some sort of wire tracer, the one that can detect through walls for my problem.



Sorry, conductors going to a switch for exterior garage lights would not be coming from a 30amp breaker. Something does not make sense.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> That is the only panel in the house.  I think that the wires coming from 30amp breaker might be the wires going to a switch that doesn't work in my house.  This switch I think controls the exterior garage lights.  It had a timer switch before but I swapped it out with a normal switch.  There is power going to it but still the switch seems to do nothing and the garage lights never come on.
> 
> I was asked to open the panel to try and look for this wire.  The wires I am looking for are a little bigger gauge than all the rest of the wires in that circuit, like the ones on the 30amp breaker.  But after inspection it appears that the wires from the switch might be going somewhere else, maybe a junction box instead of straight to the panel.
> 
> Now where do I go from here?  I am beginning to think I need some sort of wire tracer, the one that can detect through walls for my problem.



When you were checking the power at the front switch you also turned off the breaker, which breaker turned off the power to that switch.

the 30 amp pair will be the dryer.


----------



## slownsteady

AW: Have you made a map of all your circuits? If we can't trace this wire, then we may find it through the process of elimination. Turn off one breaker at a time and see what stops working in your whole house. Make a chart of what each breaker controls.


----------



## Afrowookie

The breaker for that switch was a 15 amp breaker.  All of the breakers are labelled on the panel.


----------



## nealtw

Did you see my post 192?


----------



## Afrowookie

Yes I did see your post.  The only thing I can see are two junction boxes and that gray wiring from the house panel 60 amp to I'm guessing out of the house and to the garage.  There are some more wires going in that direction but I'm not sure where it goes.  I can look into it further to see if they are going out of the house.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> Yes I did see your post.  The only thing I can see are two junction boxes and that gray wiring from the house panel 60 amp to I'm guessing out of the house and to the garage.  There are some more wires going in that direction but I'm not sure where it goes.  I can look into it further to see if they are going out of the house.



* two junction boxes*?


----------



## slownsteady

We're 200 posts into this problem and no closer to an answer, so I think it's time to trim away all the fat and get down to basics.
First, the chart of all the breaker assignments looks great, but if it was done by the previous owner, it may be outdated - not completely wrong, but things may have been changed.
Did you get any kind of meter or other tool to do circuit detection? It can be as simple as a "dummy light" (two probes and a LED light bulb) which will show you what's hot and what's not.
Have you opened junction boxes and checked to see if any wire nuts are loose? Don't trust just a visual check, sometimes a wire will appear to be inside the nut but it may not be twisted into the connection.
Start testing anyplace, but keep it logical so you won't have to repeat tests. If all the connections are good in a particular box, go downstream and check the next connection. If you find a dead connection, go upstream and try to find the last good connection in the circuit.
If a bad connection tracks back all the way to the breakers, you may want to call an electrician.


----------



## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> We're 200 posts into this problem and no closer to an answer, so I think it's time to trim away all the fat and get down to basics.
> First, the chart of all the breaker assignments looks great, but if it was done by the previous owner, it may be outdated - not completely wrong, but things may have been changed.
> Did you get any kind of meter or other tool to do circuit detection? It can be as simple as a "dummy light" (two probes and a LED light bulb) which will show you what's hot and what's not.
> Have you opened junction boxes and checked to see if any wire nuts are loose? Don't trust just a visual check, sometimes a wire will appear to be inside the nut but it may not be twisted into the connection.
> Start testing anyplace, but keep it logical so you won't have to repeat tests. If all the connections are good in a particular box, go downstream and check the next connection. If you find a dead connection, go upstream and try to find the last good connection in the circuit.
> If a bad connection tracks back all the way to the breakers, you may want to call an electrician.



What's your hurry We just haven't found the box with that wire yet.
The tag says parking instead of garage, if that means anything.


----------



## slownsteady

nealtw said:


> What's your hurry We just haven't found the box with that wire yet.
> The tag says parking instead of garage, if that means anything.


It ain't gonna get fixed just by looking at it. At some point you gotta get your hands dirty.


----------



## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> It ain't gonna get fixed just by looking at it. At some point you gotta get your hands dirty.



What would you fix? I would suggest that the OP has got dirty hands while dealing with fear.

Some where we have live wires going somewhere that has not been found.
We have lights in garage with out power.

Either the OP finds that wire or a pro does, the difference is time and money.


----------



## bud16415

The trouble is with 21 pages and over 200 posts fresh eyes are not going to start at the beginning and wade thru all the ideas tossed out. 

Things known at this point I assume is that this location at one time controlled some lights on the garage. There was a timer and the idea was to replace the timer with a switch. There is a source of power entering this box and wires running out that no one knows where they go, but the assumption is they go to the lights on the garage. We do know what breaker in the main panel shuts off the power to the live wires and I gather we know what that breaker is labeled as. 

You can ether start ripping open walls and following wires around or you can get a device and see if you can track the wires inside the wall. OR you can apply some deductive logic and by process of elimination figure out what isn&#8217;t involved and then what is left is involved. 

What you can&#8217;t do is jump from idea to idea and not run down one before you start on the next.


----------



## Snoonyb

See post #131, and be done with it.


----------



## Afrowookie

Lets be clear, I appreciate all the help, I am learning a lot by somewhat getting my hands dirty removing switches and what not and I am trying to save money by avoiding getting a wire tracer, by Sperry around 50 bucks.  

The original problem is I had a light switch in the house that didn't work labelled parking light, and "external" garage at the front of the garage.  There are no other lights that can light up the driveway other than these lights.  Hence parking lights is the only thing that makes sense.

With the help I received on this site and getting my hands dirty, I have also found out a receptacle in the garage that also didn't work.  Is it related, I don't know.

I believe there are two round junction boxes near the breaker panel in the basement.  I opened them up and did discover that one of them contained a red wire but appeared to be the same size as all the other wires, smaller gauge and it's outer seemed to be blue/black and not green.  It was hard to tell because kinda dark in that area even with cell phone flashlight.

Also it was hard to tell which wires were going out of the house since a bunch of them ran upwards and over the foundation, plus I couldn't get any further to see beyond the insulation.

Here are some pics of what I can see.


----------



## bud16415

One trick I use to look in places I can&#8217;t get my head is a selfie stick and my phone.


----------



## bud16415

Snoonyb said:


> See post #131, and be done with it.



Thats a great suggestion and of course would work if you wanted motion and darkness to trigger the lights. It seems the OP would like to stay old school and turn it on and off from in the house. I installed lights that work just like that along my walkway and front of the garage so I can see why he might want them under control from the house.


----------



## bud16415

Afrowookie said:


> Lets be clear, I appreciate all the help, I am learning a lot by somewhat getting my hands dirty removing switches and what not and I am trying to save money by avoiding getting a wire tracer, by Sperry around 50 bucks.
> 
> The original problem is I had a light switch in the house that didn't work labelled parking light, and "external" garage at the front of the garage.  There are no other lights that can light up the driveway other than these lights.  Hence parking lights is the only thing that makes sense.
> 
> With the help I received on this site and getting my hands dirty, I have also found out a receptacle in the garage that also didn't work.  Is it related, I don't know.
> 
> I believe there are two round junction boxes near the breaker panel in the basement.  I opened them up and did discover that one of them contained a red wire but appeared to be the same size as all the other wires, smaller gauge and it's outer seemed to be blue/black and not green.  It was hard to tell because kinda dark in that area even with cell phone flashlight.
> 
> Also it was hard to tell which wires were going out of the house since a bunch of them ran upwards and over the foundation, plus I couldn't get any further to see beyond the insulation.



Like I said all these boxes that might be something or might not need to be identified. All you have to do is find what breaker controls the power to the switch box in question by testing for voltage and turning breakers on and off till you lose voltage. Now take the wire nuts off in the question boxes and see at least if they are on that breaker or have voltage or never have voltage. Rule them in or out. Start at point A and work to point B. if you can see where the wires leave the house and you know where they enter the garage then you Have two more places to look for voltage. 

Rule things in or out of the problem. And in doing so the path of the wires will become apparent. Then you look for where you have power and where you should and then you have a clue where your open wire is. 

Having an outlet in the garage that also doesnt work could be related or could be a whole separate problem you need to view it both ways.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> Lets be clear, I appreciate all the help, I am learning a lot by somewhat getting my hands dirty removing switches and what not and I am trying to save money by avoiding getting a wire tracer, by Sperry around 50 bucks.
> 
> The original problem is I had a light switch in the house that didn't work labelled parking light, and "external" garage at the front of the garage.  There are no other lights that can light up the driveway other than these lights.  Hence parking lights is the only thing that makes sense.
> 
> With the help I received on this site and getting my hands dirty, I have also found out a receptacle in the garage that also didn't work.  Is it related, I don't know.
> 
> I believe there are two round junction boxes near the breaker panel in the basement.  I opened them up and did discover that one of them contained a red wire but appeared to be the same size as all the other wires, smaller gauge and it's outer seemed to be blue/black and not green.  It was hard to tell because kinda dark in that area even with cell phone flashlight.
> 
> Also it was hard to tell which wires were going out of the house since a bunch of them ran upwards and over the foundation, plus I couldn't get any further to see beyond the insulation.
> 
> Here are some pics of what I can see.



Did you check those junction boxes to see if one of them is controlled with the breaker in question?


----------



## Snoonyb

bud16415 said:


> Thats a great suggestion and of course would work if you wanted motion and darkness to trigger the lights. It seems the OP would like to stay old school and turn it on and off from in the house. I installed lights that work just like that along my walkway and front of the garage so I can see why he might want them under control from the house.



There are remotes for that.


----------



## Afrowookie

No I haven't checked those junction boxes for that yet.  But I will.

I already know that the 15 amp breaker turns off power to the switch marked parking lights.  I just don't know where to go from there.

I have very limited knowledge in electrical that's why I am asking for help.  If I knew what I was doing I wouldn't be here.


----------



## bud16415

Asking for help is a good thing. The boxes you suspect that are or could be connected to the area where you have power at the switches should be checked to see if they are part of that circuit. If so they will have power to them when the switch is on and not when it is off and also will be controlled by the breaker you have identified as running that circuit. Rule them in or out and we can move ahead from there.


----------



## Snoonyb

Yes, there is a logical, boring, mundane and systematic process of elimination, instead of jumping from pillar to post.

This tracer was recommended in another thred by Joe D, and apparently "tones" thru drywall; http://www.flukenetworks.com/conten...u4EwDr2ed6pX03z1RJ9YNgpOxrFQEOn53hhoCYCLw_wcB


----------



## Afrowookie

If I have to go this root of getting one of these tracers, is the Fluke mentioned above better than the Sperry one I mentioned before.

http://www.sperryinstruments.com/en/et64220

I can get this one for around $50-60 locally at Canadian Tire.  But if the Fluke one is better than I am willing to pay the extra money just so I can figure this out.

If I can't find the problem the old fashioned way.


----------



## Snoonyb

The Sperry is an adjustable intensity and the Fluke is not. I suspect that both, although the fluke does not offer the disclaimer regarding BX, conduit and metal encl., the Sperry does, those restrictions may exist.

They are both good brands.

Since you have primarily romex that may not be a concern.

The Fluke is available from HD for $60-$70.

There is a lot of elimination that can be accomplished with your proximity tester, however there is a process involved, and may also require a VOM for specifics.


----------



## Afrowookie

So, I checked the junction box with the red wiring I found in my basement close to the breaker panel for power with the breaker off and it still had power, so it's not on the same circuit.

Regarding the Wire Tracer I think I am just going to break down and buy the Sperry Wire Tracer/Tracker.  It's only $39.99 at CT.  I think I will try my luck with that.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> So, I checked the junction box with the red wiring I found in my basement close to the breaker panel for power with the breaker off and it still had power, so it's not on the same circuit.
> 
> Regarding the Wire Tracer I think I am just going to break down and buy the Sperry Wire Tracer/Tracker.  It's only $39.99 at CT.  I think I will try my luck with that.



This should have been easy. All junctions should be in a box that you can find somewhere in the house.
As that has not happened, we can suspect that you have a junction hidden somewhere behind a wall.

If with a tracer you find that the wire stops somewhere in the wall will you be willing to open walls to find the problem or  would you then be looking at a way to kill the old wire as best we can and find another way to solve the problem. And we can.


----------



## Afrowookie

I am willing to open up walls.  I really want to find and fix this problem.  So I am willing to do almost anything at this point.


----------



## Snoonyb

Afrowookie said:


> So, I checked the junction box with the red wiring I found in my basement close to the breaker panel for power with the breaker off and it still had power, so it's not on the same circuit.
> 
> Regarding the Wire Tracer I think I am just going to break down and buy the Sperry Wire Tracer/Tracker.  It's only $39.99 at CT.  I think I will try my luck with that.



When you have the sperry and are ready for the boring and mundane process of elimination, let us know.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> When you have the sperry and are ready for the boring and mundane process of elimination, let us know.



You and Bud and Slownsteady all seam to be on the same page. I just don't understand the hurry in finishing this up with quick solution.

The OP has limited experience and limited time to spend on the problem.
He is willing to learn and should find any problem that could turn out to be fire hazard. 

Even before we find the cause of this problem we can see at least three code violations, just because he doesn't see them, should we ignore them.


----------



## Snoonyb

It's close to 24 pages of pillar to post, with, despite several assurances, the solution is no closer than the 1st post.

There is a boring, systematic process of elimination.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> It's close to 24 pages of pillar to post, with, despite several assurances, the solution is no closer than the 1st post.
> 
> There is a boring, systematic process of elimination.



So the length of a thread should be determined by some coefficient of boredom. Or by the number of posts.


----------



## Snoonyb

The success of the thred, in providing a path too the solution, lies in the number of relevant posts.

Since this is also a teaching forum, having to wade through the chafe of the sidetracks this thred has taken may be illuminating, it's hardly expedient to the solution.


----------



## bud16415

Afrowookie said:


> So, I checked the junction box with the red wiring I found in my basement close to the breaker panel for power with the breaker off and it still had power, so it's not on the same circuit.



Ok you have made some progress as now you have ruled something out that could have been a likely termination point. 

I would start in the basement directly below the switches on the first floor. Find wires and find Jboxes and test them in a similar way. Keep digging and testing and you will figure out what you have. 

You could have a buried connection in a wall with or without a Jbox but it is highly unlikely.


----------



## Snoonyb

While that switch leg may or may not have a "J" box in the line prior to its being routed to the garage, the OP needs also to expose the ends of the conduits that leave the basement in the direction of the garage and tell us the count.

As stated, there are a number of things he can accomplish with just the proximity tester.

*Again*, with *only* the breaker that controls that bank of switches on and with *only* the switch connected to the red wire on, he can check to see if there is voltage present, with the proximity tester, in the romex entering the basement beneath the switch bank.

If there is than where does it go? To a "J" box? To a conduit leaving the basement?


----------



## JoeD

What is your location? If you were anywhere near me I would come over and assist you.

You mention Canadian Tire so I know you are at least in Canada.


----------



## Afrowookie

Petawawa, Ontario.

Even though I said I am willing to take down walls or part of the ceiling, I am not willing to take down the whole lot of it just to find out the cause. If I go directly below where the wire should be underneath the switch, all I see are tiles in the basement ceiling.  These tiles are not drop ceiling tiles that are easy lifted up and set back into place.  I have easily broken one or two of these tiles already to look for a cable wire, so I really don't want to break anymore unless I have to.

So needless to say I want this wire tracer to try to determine at least the general location before removing tiles or parts of walls.  And I even have my doubts that this Sperry device will detect far enough through a wall/ceiling/floor.  But I haven't used one before so I maybe wrong.


----------



## Snoonyb

I wouldn't think that breaking walls is a necessity, at this point.

If the tiles are the typical 12X12 interlocking you can remove one to determine where the tongue is, so that they can be fairly easily replaced.

However, if you are unwilling to indulge in a defined method, there are still some avenues that may or may not result in any satisfaction.

JoeD has express a level of faith in the Fluke.


----------



## JoeD

> Petawawa, Ontario.


6 hour drive. Sorry too far.


----------



## nealtw

JoeD said:


> 6 hour drive. Sorry too far.



:thbup:It was worth the try.


----------



## Afrowookie

So what you're saying is that the Fluke one is better than the Sperry one I am thinking about getting?


----------



## Snoonyb

Actually I'm saying only that JoeD has stated a positive experience with the Fluke.

Also when you read the specs from the Fluke site, the use restrictions which exist on the Sperry site, are not present on the Fluke site.

I've used neither of these 2 products, because I'm old school, process of elimination.

However, I have both Sperry and Fluke measuring devices and find the Fluke to be of marginally superior quality, while the Sperry are a good general use device.


----------



## Afrowookie

Ok, thanks for clearing that up.  I would like to buy the better one.  Might just take a little longer for shipping.


----------



## Snoonyb

It is available from HD and from here; http://www.flukenetworks.com/conten...pairtalk.com&gclid=CLKkz5m269ICFReHswod9BkFuA


----------



## Afrowookie

Just ordered the Fluke Networks Pro 3000.  Just have to wait till it comes in, figure out how to use it and then I will report back with results.


----------



## Snoonyb

Afrowookie said:


> Just ordered the Fluke Networks Pro 3000.  Just have to wait till it comes in, figure out how to use it and then I will report back with results.



Good deal, and as long you are confident in your ability to isolate the conductor/s you need to test for their location.


----------



## nealtw

Afrowookie said:


> Just ordered the Fluke Networks Pro 3000.  Just have to wait till it comes in, figure out how to use it and then I will report back with results.



If that doesn't work, this one is home made for one is home made.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c65fmrZCyd4[/ame]


----------



## Afrowookie

Hey all, I'm back finally.  Sorry but I have been away for work and just got back this weekend.  

Anyways I received my Fluke Networks Pro 3000 and used it.  On the switch and here is what I found.  After I hooked up the tone generator on the switch wires I proceeded to go outside to the garage lights to see if I hear the tone.  The answer is yes I heard the tone on both lights.

Then I went to the receptacle I suspected the lights are wired to and it does have a tone.  Also found out that behind the wall partition in the house where my problem switch is also has a receptacle and that also generated a tone so I am guessing it's wired through there as well.

The other thing I found out the reason why I couldn't detect anything with my no touch voltage detector on any of the conduits coming from the house or from the garage is because the wire doesn't appear to be going through those conduits.  I used my Fluke and no beeps on any of the conduits.  So it appears the wire is going underground somewhere.

Also pressed the continuity button on the tone generator box and the light came on so it looks like there is continuity in the wire.

If I detected a tone throughout the circuit right to the garage lights themselves, how come when I was looking for power I did not detect it at the lights nor at the receptacle in the garage?


----------



## Snoonyb

Good to see you have returned and thanks for taking the initiative.

However, when you say, "After I hooked up the tone generator on the switch wires I proceeded to go outside to the garage lights to see if I hear the tone."

Which conductors? All three in the romex, or just the two attached too the switch?

Did kill the power feeding the "J" box the switch is in?

Did you attempt to detect a signal, from the switched hot or from the neutral conductor, individually, and follow the conductors as they left either/both the switch "J" box or the light fixtures, up or down the wall, and possibly in the basement, in an attempt to determine where they leave the dwelling as well as where the enter the garage?


----------



## Afrowookie

I disconnected the neutral(white) and hot(black) from the neutral bundle and the switch itself, these two wires are bigger gauge than the rest of the wires. It is here where I connected the tone generator wires red on white and black on black.  I did not do the red in this romex because although I can see it it is not used and I can barely see it let alone have access to it.

I have neglected in going further than the wall and directly at the said light fixtures, and receptacles.  I will definitely do that tomorrow and try to determine where this wire goes throughout the house and maybe find where where it leaves the house.  I'll mention again that I did check all the conduits I can find on the house and garage and neither came up with the tone.


----------



## Snoonyb

Thanks.

It is often the practice at the time of the foundation pour to place conduit within the forms, which can subsequently be hidden behind drywall.

Where the subpanel you have is totally disassociated and occurred later in the occupancy.

If the tracer follows to the recep. you mentioned, it would be a place to look for abandoned conductors.

Continuity can be read through light bulbs so that may be an indicator for the continuity, and removing the lamping in both fixtures will break that.


----------



## nealtw

White is common thru out the system so that could give you a signal and adds no usable info.


----------



## Afrowookie

Can I hook up the tone generator on just the black and see what that gives me?


----------



## nealtw

That is what I have seen in videos.

I would be interested mostly in the red wire as it may been broke off by accident. But locating where red and black go would be a good start.


----------



## nealtw

If you can find the first place the black wire goes you should find the red wire there.


----------



## Snoonyb

Afrowookie said:


> Can I hook up the tone generator on just the black and see what that gives me?



Yes, and if the recp. you mentioned earlier is the next closest box in the line of you tone, then you will probably find the red conductor there as well.

When  you open the recep. box look for the same identifiers you used to describe the romex in the light switch box.

Whether you find the red or not, you had established continuity with a black and white conductor too the light fixtures.

So now you need to establish if by isolating the black and white in the recep. box, you can again establish the tone at the light fixture/s, with either or both the black and white conductors.

Once you have established individual conductor continuity then you can establish connecting to the switch.


----------



## Afrowookie

So I fiddled with the with my Fluke again today and this is what I did.  I isolated each wire this time by using tone generator and putting the red clip on each wire white, black and red(I was mistaken thinking there wasn't enough wire protruding to clamp onto, but there was) and the black clip always on the copper wire(ground).  I did separately with each wire and then using the probe to trace each wire.

What I found was that both the white and black still goes out to the light fixtures and the red does not.  Also found out at least I know where the wire goes into the garage.  If you look at the conduits from my previous pics it is the conduit with the smaller box.  The red is not detected up to that point either and like I thought before that romex does go to the receptacle in the garage.  But it was still a smaller gauge than the on the suspect switch side.

Another discovery this time was that while trying to find out where the wire goes from the switch, I thought it was going to a receptacle that is below and on the other side of the partition wall from the switch.  So I took the recpt out to look at the wires and they were smaller gauge with no red wire.  So I proceeded further and then I found out that underneath the register below the switch I found the elusive junction box that everyone keeps mentioning.

Tomorrow I will break open the junction box and try to determine exactly where the romex is leaving the house.  It seems to me that the bigger gauge wire goes to that junction box and then turns into the normal smaller size and it seems as the wire is going out towards the back of the house and maybe underneath the deck, then underground and coming back through that conduit into the garage.


----------



## Snoonyb

Isn't this fun!

So now you have some incite to the process.

The downside to all this, it is still not code compliant to reconnect the switch and power those light fixtures, however, a solution was provided on pg14 post #131, or some configuration of.


----------



## nealtw

So the wires are going to the lights but the lights don't work.

It does sound like you have made good progress.

And like Snoonyb mentioned, it will be about making it code compliant,

Can you open this garage box up again and look to see if anything looks strange about this set up


----------



## nealtw

When you hooked up to the white wire, did you check to see if the signal showed up on unrelated white wires in the house, If not it might mean it could be a switch leg.

In this picture we see the wight 12 gauge going to a wire nut with a newer wire pigtail going to the other nut. That does not make sense. 

If it is a switch leg, the power would be coming from the garage on the black and going back on the white

If there was a timer in place it would likely need a neutral to operate so there would be pigtail needed for that.

Someone who didn't understand it may have wired it wrong when the timer was removed. 

Wired wrong on a bad day could have supplied 240 volts.


----------



## Afrowookie

Back again.

The above pics of the wiring has since been changed and cleaned up a little but still hasn't changed anything regarding the outer garage lights.

Wiring looks like this now.







Upon further inspection of the junction box, i thought the the wiring of the switch connected to the receptacle behind the partition wall wear the switch is located and the romex ran out towards the back of the house and to the garage.  Appears I have been mistaken, looks like the switch goes right to this junction box and out towards front and then towards the garage.  The recept behind the wall is still connected on that circuit somehow because the breaker of that switch is the same breaker.  Anywho here is the pic of the junction box, both the romex's from the switch and going out from the junction box are the same gauge and both have red wire not connected at all.







From that junction box the romex seems to go towards the front of the house.  It also has black sheathing like the one showing going to the bottom of the garage recept.  but no sign of red wire on the garage recept side.  Checked it with my Fluke Networks from junction box to conduit with small box and I get a signal.







Am I safe to say that my next step is to check for continuity from the junction box to the garage receptacle by twisting the black and white together and checking with a multimeter?


----------



## Snoonyb

In the 2nd photo the appears to be a trace grnd., conductor, so when you are taking about a continuity check, the grnd conductor connected to either the black or white will give you a truer reading.


----------



## Afrowookie

Good call, will do that.


----------



## nealtw

You still need to find where this wire connects to your wire in the house.


----------



## WyrTwister

Afrowookie said:


> Thanks for all the replies.
> 
> I will try to answer all the questions.
> 
> 1)  I know a little or enough about electrical to injure or kill myself.  Lol  In other words I know the basics and don't have a lot of experience with it, only wiring light fixtures, receptacles and switches and the sort.  Not wire tracing.
> 
> 2)  I do have a digital multimeter and a voltage tester.
> 
> 3)  Both conduits enter the garage on the same side between the garage and house and about 1-2 feet apart.  I'm not sure what you mean by termination, (inexperience).  I'm pretty sure the big conduit goes in the fuse panel for the garage and as for the smaller one, must be for the two lights at the front of garage.
> 
> 4)  I am pretty sure I tied the Neutral back into the switch.  Did I do it properly?  I don't know. lol.  I will have to check it again.  Also for all I know the old timer switch could have still been working fine.
> 
> 5)  All switches and receptacles has a function as normal with or without a switch.  It is only this one switch that appears to do nothing and only one set of lights (front garage) that has no way to turn on.  So put two and two together leads me to believe that those lights are tied into that switch.
> 
> I was thinking about getting the Sperry Wire Tracer for this problem, would this help in this case or do I even need it?



     Traditional single pole toggle switches have 2 terminals and perhaps a 3rd , green terminal for earth ground . 

     You may have a white wire going to it , but it is not a neutral .  A traditional single pole toggle switch does not accept / use a neutral .

     Your timer switch might have ( a dimmer MIGHT also ) .

God bless
Wyr


----------



## nealtw

WyrTwister said:


> Traditional single pole toggle switches have 2 terminals and perhaps a 3rd , green terminal for earth ground .
> 
> You may have a white wire going to it , but it is not a neutral .  A traditional single pole toggle switch does not accept / use a neutral .
> 
> Your timer switch might have ( a dimmer MIGHT also ) .
> 
> God bless
> Wyr



That we haven't figured out yet. we don't know if it is a switch leg from the garage or powered from the house.


----------



## WyrTwister

My guess is , the white is hot & the switch leg is the black ( where they are feed from , I have no idea ) .

     A non contact voltage tester should glow , on the hot .  If neither is hot , you have to go investigate some where else in the house or garage .

     ( If you have a bare ground wire & it is connected properly , a contact volt meter will tell you if the white ot black is hot . )

God bless
Wyr


----------



## nealtw

WyrTwister said:


> My guess is , the white is hot & the switch leg is the black ( where they are feed from , I have no idea ) .
> 
> A non contact voltage tester should glow , on the hot .  If neither is hot , you have to go investigate some where else in the house or garage .
> 
> ( If you have a bare ground wire & it is connected properly , a contact volt meter will tell you if the white ot black is hot . )
> 
> God bless
> Wyr



The OP thinks when you saw the house first it was a timer switch but when he moved in it was a reg. switch that did not work as wired. White to cluster of whites black switched.

He found 2 cables to the garage, one to a sub box. 

The second to an outlet. inside that does not work. And no power to the lights in question..

He has used a fluke sounder that I think does send sound to the lights.

I am thinking like you that it is a switch leg coming from the garage but then we have to find where the power or neutral is interrupted.

The confusion for who ever disconnected the timer was with the white as the time likely needed a neutral to work.. I think.


----------



## WyrTwister

Well , first thing I would do is to fine the hor or multiple hots at the switch box .  And NOT mess up anything that is currently working .

     Make sure the light or lights in question had good lamps installed .

     Using a contact voltage tester , test from the known hot to each unknown wire .  Identify with marking tape , those that show a voltage .

     Determine if there is a neutral or bare earth ground in the switch box .  If so , test between it ( as a reference ) to any of the unknown wires , that not show a voltage when tested in reference to the known hot .

     Identify any new hots found .  Keep in mind that if you are dealing with a 3 way switch , you do not have this 100%m nailed down .

     Report back .

God bless
Wyr


----------



## Afrowookie

Back again.  This is what I did this time.  I opened up junction box and seperated all the joining wires to try to isolate them and used my digital multimeter to measure for resistance on each wire to ground within the box.  The only wire that came back with a good result was the white from the switch romex coming into the junction box, it had approx 0.8 ohm. The black from the switch was an open. 

The romex going out of the junction box white and black were also both open.  I also tried with the my DMM on the diode setting to listen for the beep sound, and tried my Fluke Networks Probe and used the box thingy to look for continuity on each wire.  It all came back with same result just the white wire from switch returned with a good reading.

Also as you can see above in the pic that is the romex I presume is going to the garage conduit with the smaller box.  However if you look at the pic closely the romex goes approx 5-6 feet towards the front of the house from my position of the pic and it seems to veer downward and to the left which is the right direction to the garage.  However from there I have no idea where it goes, my guess is in the walls/ceiling somewhere.  Even with the probe I can only hear a slight signal and not enough of an indication of where it goes.

Short of ripping out some drywall of even digging outside to see where this romex leaves the house I think I might now be stuck.

My question is if the white from the switch is good, how come the black is giving me an open?  The length of the romex in this case is only about 5 feet.

Btw since I suspect this romex goes into the before mentioned garage receptacle because I doesn't work I decided to disconnect it and check each wire there.  All wires here from conduit romex and wires to the outside lights all came back as open.

I am at a loss.


----------



## nealtw

I would add sound to the black in the photo and see if it shows up at the outlet and then do the white. It is starting to look like a broken wire some where in between.


----------



## Afrowookie

Could both sides of the romex be broken?  The wire came from the light switch into the junction box and was connected/spliced with lugs to romex coming out of junction box.  If 3 out of the four wires were open what are the chances that both sides of the romex have broken wires?


----------



## nealtw

If it is the wire going to the garage maybe the shovel strike was a glancing blow?
The romex you a pointing out in that picture does not look like the cable at the garage wall or the garage outlet, so maybe another junction box.

What is the black cable hanging from the strap in that photo.


----------



## Afrowookie

Maybe but if it was it wasn't done by me, nor my wife I don't think.  We have not done any digging of the sort since we moved in.

I am not positive about that hanging wire cause it's hard to get a good look up in there because I am between floor joists and ceiling tiles, but judging from where that cable is going and the location of it, it appears it is going to two ceiling lights in the spare bedroom in the basement.

The breaker for the garage lights do not affect these two lights.

Come to think of it there are two registers up in the living room in the general area of where the romex might be going.  I will pop them up tomorrow and look in there with a mirror to see what I can see.


----------



## nealtw

This picture of the breaker box as a black cable in the center it looks more like the cable going to the garage.
Can you have a look on that and read what is written on it.


----------



## nealtw

Every answer gives us more questions like I wonder what wire was taken out of this box


----------



## Afrowookie

In the pic, if you are talking about the black single wire next to the single white one.  If I remember correctly I think it's coax cables for cable or internet.  But I will check again when I go home.


----------



## nealtw

Some one was making sure the red wire was not being used. we can see just the end of it on both sides here.
So there is another junction with this wire to the shinny cable that goes to the garage.


----------



## Afrowookie

Hey all I am back again with good news.  I finally fixed my problem, well at least found a solution anyways to my goal which was to get exterior garage lights working again and being able to control them from inside my house.

Here is what I did.

I had to open up the wall between the non-working receptacle(where the ext garage lights were wired to) and the next receptacle (working) with a stud in between.  Then added romex between those two receps and thus providing power to the non-working one.  BAM!  I have power to the recep and to the lights.

But now my lights always stay on, so my solution to have control over them inside my house was getting these items and installing them.

SS13A Slimline Switch Decorator White
https://www.x10.com/x10-home-automation/controllers/wireless/ss13a.html

LM15A Socket Rocket Screw-In Lamp Module
https://www.x10.com/x10-home-automation/modules/lamp-modules/lm15a.html

TM751 Wireless Transceiver Module
https://www.x10.com/x10-home-automation/controllers/transceivers/tm751.html

So after all this time, I actually haven't fixed the wiring from my house to the garage, and at this point I am not going to be bothered spending any more time or money to fix this issue because my original issue of getting lights working has been solved.

I would like to thank everyone who provided insight, advice and any help at all.  I have learned a whole bunch and am now more confident in dealing with electrical around the house.

Lastly, I apologize for the long-*** thread because of my lack of knowledge.  I know it was commented on a couple of times.


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## slownsteady

Hey, sometimes that's how it has to work.


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## afjes_2016

SNS   I am with you on this one.:agree: 273 replies later; Wow!

Afrowookie I am really glad you solved your issue.:thbup: Just understand that if we (one of us) were able to actually be there and examine personally the situation we may have been able to solve this sooner than you. "Words" sometimes instead of personal examination just complicates things.

Sorry I could not have been more of :help: to you.


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