# How do I troubleshoot this fan?



## farmerjohn1324 (Aug 13, 2016)

Fan doesn't work, lights don't work.

I can't even get in far enough to use a multimeter.

Where do I begin?

Also, since this fan has never worked, I don't know which circuit it is, so I have to turn off the whole house to work on it.


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## JoeD (Aug 13, 2016)

You should be able to lift the fan out the ball mount now that you have the cover off.


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## beachguy005 (Aug 13, 2016)

As I recall, you have a wall switch that controls the fan.  Did you check if you have power there?


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## Kabris (Aug 13, 2016)

Agree with beachguy, could be a bad switch or connection. If there's power coming into the switch, turn the switch on and see if there's power on the switch leg. A voltage detector might be a good tool to use if you can't get a multimeter in there.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Aug 13, 2016)

beachguy005 said:


> As I recall, you have a wall switch that controls the fan.  Did you check if you have power there?



I forgot I already made a post about this. There is power to the switch. Attached to this switch, there is a hot, neutral, and ground all coming out of the same tubing. Should there be more?

Of course, I am just assuming this switch works the fan. I don't see anything else that it would be.


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## Kabris (Aug 14, 2016)

Your fan isn't wired in a way that corresponds with that switch, if all that is in the switch box is 1 black, 1 white and 1 ground. Either your fan is switched from somewhere else, or it is constantly hot, and relies solely on the pull chains. I recommend getting a voltage detector (fairly cheap at a big box store) and checking if it's hot at the fan.


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## Kabris (Aug 14, 2016)

If the fan box wires are hot then it could be a bad connection in the box, or the fan itself is bad.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Aug 15, 2016)

Kabris said:


> Your fan isn't wired in a way that corresponds with that switch, if all that is in the switch box is 1 black, 1 white and 1 ground. Either your fan is switched from somewhere else, or it is constantly hot, and relies solely on the pull chains. I recommend getting a voltage detector (fairly cheap at a big box store) and checking if it's hot at the fan.



Will a multimeter work just as well? Which wires exactly should I test?

I drew a diagram of the wires. There are five "casings" of wire coming into the box. Each one has a black, a brown (possibly used to be white, but not as white as the one that attaches to the fan). I labeled these casings 1 - 5 on the diagram. The black wire from each casing goes to a nut that seemingly does nothing, except for casing #3, which goes to the fixture. The brown wire from each casing goes to a different nut, with the exception of the brown wire from casing #3, which goes to the nut that all the other black wires go to. This brown wire nut has a single brown wire that originates from the nut and goes to the fixture (the neutral white wire of the fixture, so maybe I should say COMES FROM the fixture). The ground wires from each casing are twined together and attached to nothing.

From the fixture are a blue and black wire, which eventually attach to the black wire from casing #3. There is a white wire that eventually attaches to the nut that 4 of the brown wires come to.

There are two separate green ground wires that are not attached to anything. They are hanging free, possibly having been cut. One is attached to a casing close to the fan, and another to a metal part closer to the ceiling assembly.

I don't see the point of casings #1, 2, 4, and 5. I think the whole thing would work better if the neutral white coming back from the fan was attached to the neutral brown from casing #3. 

I don't see the point for this being so complicated and definitely don't see the point of the nut that 4 of the black wires attach to.

Any suggestions?

I will be happy to clarify the wiring diagram if you need me to.

Will this require entering the attic?


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## nealtw (Aug 15, 2016)

So you have a junction box where power comes in and goes out to other lights or outlets as well as power the fan and goes to a switch.
The cluster of black wires is power coming in and going out to other fixtures.
You might find a white in that cluster, that one will be power going to the switch.
The cluster of white wires are the common wires for everything.

the blue and black from the fan are the light and the fan, they are wired together because you only have one switch.
They are connected to a black that should be from the same cable as the white that goes to the black cluster.

All the bear copper wires, ground  wires should be connected to the box and the two green wires should be connected to them or connected to the box.
Not having the rounds connected will not stop things from working.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Aug 15, 2016)

nealtw said:


> So you have a junction box where power comes in and goes out to other lights or outlets as well as power the fan and goes to a switch.



And #3 is supposed to be powering this fan? I have a multimeter. Where do I test to see the problem?

Is the wiring to this fan correct?

Should I mend that broken ground wire by connecting the two wires?


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## nealtw (Aug 15, 2016)

I am late to this party so I don't know what has been done.
Now that you have the fan hanging loose and you are looking for live power, your head could be in a bad place if the fans starts.
remove the fan and don't let the black and white wires touch each other or anything else.
Check the power between the cluster of white wires and the cluster of black wires, should be about 120 volts.

If you have power there, then check the power between the two wires that were going to the fan, with switch up and switch down.

If you find no power there, pull the switch and connect those two wire together and check the fan wires again.


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## bud16415 (Aug 15, 2016)

When I see a mess of wires coming into a ceiling box like that in an older house it makes me think it was done with what some call octopus wiring. In the old days they used to bring the hot pair into the ceiling box and then run out and down to pick up as many outlets and runs and other lights etc. Sometimes power originates at the light and sometimes at the switch. When this house was made most likely there was just a light at that location. You said you have 5 cables running into the box. I&#8217;m guessing one is bringing in power, one might be running out to a switch and back for the fan, another could be running out to another switch for the light under the fan. That would be 3 of them. The other two could be going out to wall outlets etc. I can&#8217;t follow what is going to what is going to what in your photo. And I&#8217;m not too clear on your drawing as well. Blue and black are tied together so that tells me the light and the fan are on and off together so no separate switch. All the hots are connected together so cable 3 must be the one that goes to the switch. Power goes out on the brown/ white wire and comes back the black wire powers the black and the blue fan and light and comes back on the white that&#8217;s connected to all the brown / whites. 

If you go to the switch on the other end of cable 3 you should have power on the brown / white wire. 

You can test for voltage there. The switch could be bad or the fan and lights could be bad. You have checked to make sure the fan and lights are turned on with the pull chains????? You could test the switch by jumping a test wire across it if you know how to do that safely. You can check voltage at the wire nut  where the 4 blacks and one white go together. Check between that bunch of wires and the bunch that have the brown / whites nutted together. If you have a volt meter and know how to use it you can sometimes find some copper at the base of the wire nut to stick the probe to.


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## slownsteady (Aug 15, 2016)

So now that you have a diagram of all the wires in that junction box, you should be able to disconnect all the wires and then reconnect in exactly the same way (if necessary). Stop me right now if you wouldn't be able to do that. Because as you move forward with this project, you may find that you have several wires disconnected at the same time, and then at least you can get back to the current situation without creating more problems...errr,...challenges. You can use tape and a marker to label the wires 1-5 if that would be helpful.
As Neal said, the fan is in the way now and potentially dangerous, so it should be removed. Using extra wire nuts or electrical tape, cap the bare wires temporarily. Only one of those 5 wires should be bringing electricity to the box, the other four will be distributing that electricity to other places, as Bud said. (I know that I, if i was a new homeowner, would like to know which of those wires is hot and which cable it belongs to and of course which breaker it was connected to). The wire nut that is "doing nothing" is actually the distribution point to the other cables. So the white wire from cable #3 is carrying electricity from the J-box back to the wall switch that controls the fan. The black wire from cable #3 is bringing that electricity back directly to the fan. When you throw the switch off or on, the black #3 wire will have current off or on. So that would be your first test - to see if the circuit going to the fan is complete and that the switch is functioning.


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## nealtw (Aug 15, 2016)

Joe, Bud, S&S, Beach, Kabris. and anyone else. When something stops the first and easiest test is to jump the switch, 9 times out of 10, you have found the problem in less that five minutes.


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## nealtw (Aug 15, 2016)

beachguy005 said:


> As I recall, you have a wall switch that controls the fan.  Did you check if you have power there?



I little explanation on how might have been good.
Making a connection between line and load with a meter, may just put the operator in danger.:down:


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## Kabris (Aug 15, 2016)

Thank you for the pictures. A multimeter will work fine, but I suggest a voltage detector because it is much faster for troubleshooting. Now that I see a closer look at the round ceiling box, that fan could very well be on that switch you thought it might be on.

The white wire pigtailed to the blacks is your power for the switch, and the black pigtailed to the fan is the switch leg. You know you have power at the switch. Now test if there is voltage at the switch leg at the fan.

Sorry for the late response, busy day.


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## nealtw (Aug 15, 2016)

Kabris said:


> Thank you for the pictures. A multimeter will work fine, but I suggest a voltage detector because it is much faster for troubleshooting. Now that I see a closer look at the round ceiling box, that fan could very well be on that switch you thought it might be on.
> 
> The white wire pigtailed to the blacks is your power for the switch, and the black pigtailed to the fan is the switch leg. You know you have power at the switch. Now test if there is voltage at the switch leg at the fan.
> 
> Sorry for the late response, busy day.



Would you really have him check for power with the fan hanging from the wires.:down:
Joe, Bud, S&S, Beach, *Kabris.* and anyone else. When something stops the first and easiest test is to jump the switch, 9 times out of 10, you have found the problem in less that five minutes.


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## Kabris (Aug 15, 2016)

Neal, yes the fan should not be hanging by its wires. But he has already determined there is voltage on both sides of the switch.


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## Kabris (Aug 15, 2016)

That was our first suggestion, to check the switch.


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## nealtw (Aug 15, 2016)

Kabris said:


> Neal, yes the fan should not be hanging by its wires. But he has already determined there is voltage on both sides of the switch.



And you know exactly how he tested that, did he go to ground and one screw and then the other or did he go screw to screw. the later does not prove a good switch. Although it could be dangerous.

There is one assumption we have to make here and that is complete ignorance.

Check the switch, doses't mean much if you don't know how.
It needs an explanation on how to it safely.


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## bud16415 (Aug 15, 2016)

Sometimes no actually most of the time I view an OP&#8217;s problem as a learning experience as mush as a problem to solve. I try and intermix the whole picture along with the quick steps of trial and error so that the OP and the other 200 lurkers that read the thread have a chance to gain some understanding from it. There are actually three switches controlling this fan. Anyone or all could be the problem. I agree checking voltage across the switch open should read 120v checking across it closed should read zero volts even though both sides of the switch would be hot. Voltage is the difference in potential so if both are 120 it will read zero. If there is a bare copper earth ground and the switch is closed the voltage between each side and ground should be 120.


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## nealtw (Aug 15, 2016)

I find it strange that the OP has a meter and asked where to start and no body asked what he knew about using it.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-3/safe-meter-usage/


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## CallMeVilla (Aug 15, 2016)

Get a non-contact voltage detector to see what is hot and what is not.    Disconnect power leg to fan so you don't get chopped up.  Turn switch ON and check for power to your fan.    If the hot leg has power then you have a fan problem.  Replace it.  If the hot leg I NOT registering power, you have a circuit problem.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Aug 16, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I am late to this party so I don't know what has been done.
> Now that you have the fan hanging loose and you are looking for live power, your head could be in a bad place if the fans starts.
> remove the fan and don't let the black and white wires touch each other or anything else.
> Check the power between the cluster of white wires and the cluster of black wires, should be about 120 volts.
> ...



I tried to find power between the two clusters. I got no reading. I'm not sure if this was because the multimeter didn't touch copper or because there was no power.

There is no power between the white and black wires that were leading to the fan.

So you want me to remove the light switch from the wall, disconnect the wires, and attach the white to the black? I also noticed that after I removed the fan, there was no voltage reading at the switch. Prior to this, it was 120 volts, now it is 2.2 volts or zero.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Aug 16, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> You could test the switch by jumping a test wire across it if you know how to do that safely. You can check voltage at the wire nut  where the 4 blacks and one white go together. Check between that bunch of wires and the bunch that have the brown / whites nutted together. If you have a volt meter and know how to use it you can sometimes find some copper at the base of the wire nut to stick the probe to.



I tested the switch with a multimeter. It had 120 volts prior to removing the fan, it now has 0 (or 2.2) volts.

As far as testing the wire nuts, I tried, but I don't think I found any copper. I could undo those nuts if necessary, but I'm not going to do that yet.


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

So at the switch you are checking from  each screw to ground, with the switch in both positions?


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## farmerjohn1324 (Aug 16, 2016)

CallMeVilla said:


> Get a non-contact voltage detector to see what is hot and what is not.    Disconnect power leg to fan so you don't get chopped up.  Turn switch ON and check for power to your fan.    If the hot leg has power then you have a fan problem.  Replace it.  If the hot leg I NOT registering power, you have a circuit problem.



I believe I have a circuit problem.


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I believe I have a circuit problem. The switch no longer has power since I disconnected the fan, but this is to be expected since the power went to the fan first, right?



No: the white wire in the black cluster takes the power  to the switch and then to the light/ fan.

Don't confuse that when some one said power went to fan first, they meant it went to that box first as compared to the switch box.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Aug 16, 2016)

nealtw said:


> So at the switch you are checking from  each screw to ground, with the switch in both positions?



I was not. I was doing black screw to white screw.

I now get 120 volts when doing ground to white screw. I get zero when doing black to ground.

When I probe the copper ground wire itself, I get zero, but when I probe the metal part of the switch, I get the 120 reading.


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I was not. I was doing black screw to white screw.
> 
> I now get 120 volts when doing ground to white screw. I get zero when doing black to ground.
> 
> When I probe the copper ground wire itself, I get zero, but when I probe the metal part of the switch, I get the 120 reading.



Just so you know if everything was working right and you measure between those two screws, you could be feeding the light and fan thru the meter.
Very dangerous. That is what my fear was earlier in a post..

Pull the wires off the switch and connect them and check for power at the other box.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Aug 16, 2016)

There is now 120 volts at the fan. Is this 100% proof that all I need is a new switch?

How is it possible to get shocked through a multimeter if it's made of plastic?


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

Yes turn off the power, sounds like they are stabbed in the back instead of wrapped around the screw. If they are stabbed in the back, there is a small round hole there too, close to each wire, some times if you shove a nail in the other hole the wire will release.
If one or both wires pull out easily, that could be the problem, using the screws is always better.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Aug 16, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Yes turn off the power, sounds like they are stabbed in the back instead of wrapped around the screw. If they are stabbed in the back, there is a small round hole there too, close to each wire, some times if you shove a nail in the other hole the wire will release.
> If one or both wires pull out easily, that could be the problem, using the screws is always better.



Edit:

I attached the wires to the screws. Now, there is no power to the fan.

I get 120 from the white wire to the ground with the switch in either position. I get zero from the black wire to the ground. There is no power to the fan in either position.

On this switch, the white wire is attached to the bottom-right screw, and the black to the top-left. I noticed there is a switch on the other side of the room (control an outside light) that is the opposite, with the black on the bottom-right and white on the top-left. Could this be my problem? Were the wires to the switch backwards? If not, the switch must be bad because I have seen that the power works.

Also, what is the proper way to attach the ground wire to the switch? It had been wrapped around the switch, but not screwed to anything.


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

On a switch leg where there is only one cable it does not matter which wire goes where.
There should be a green ground screw else about on the switch, if not with the copper wire attached to the box and the switch screwed in place it is grounded thru the steel box.
So remove the switch, twist the wires together and check for power at the light box. Don't forget to turn the power on before checking for power.


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

If you find power at the light box, turn off breaker and re install the fan. it should work when the breaker is turned on and can be controlled with the pull chain,
If it still doesn't work, we will have to check the switches in the fan it self.


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

By the looks of that switch, when you buy a new one buy a box of them and a box of outlets, when you paint a room change these things out.


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## bud16415 (Aug 16, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Just so you know if everything was working right and you measure between those two screws, you could be feeding the light and fan thru the meter.
> Very dangerous. That is what my fear was earlier in a post..
> 
> Pull the wires off the switch and connect them and check for power at the other box.



If your meter is set to volts there is no danger in checking voltage across a switch. Volt meters dont pass current they look for a difference in electrical potential. In the case of this switch the meter wont be trying to power the fan if the switch is open. Again if the switch is closed it should read zero from screw to screw as it will have 120 on both screws and it should have 120 from screw to ground on both sides. That will tell you if the switch is good or bad without jumping anything.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Aug 16, 2016)

It was 120 from white to ground, and 0 from black to ground.

Does that tell me the switch is bad?


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> It was 120 from white to ground, and 0 from black to ground.
> 
> Does that tell me the switch is bad?



You took the switch out and joined the wires?
If you did and you got a 0 on one wire hen you have a broken wire.


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> If your meter is set to volts there is no danger in checking voltage across a switch. Volt meters dont pass current they look for a difference in electrical potential. In the case of this switch the meter wont be trying to power the fan if the switch is open. Again if the switch is closed it should read zero from screw to screw as it will have 120 on both screws and it should have 120 from screw to ground on both sides. That will tell you if the switch is good or bad without jumping anything.



You turn off power and check the continuity. but first you disconnect the wires so you don't get a back feed reading.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaIszMlrQNE[/ame]


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## farmerjohn1324 (Aug 16, 2016)

nealtw said:


> You took the switch out and joined the wires?
> If you did and you got a 0 on one wire hen you have a broken wire.



When I joined the wires, the fan worked.

It's a bad switch.


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

Yes...........................


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## bud16415 (Aug 16, 2016)

nealtw said:


> You turn off power and check the continuity. but first you disconnect the wires so you don't get a back feed reading.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaIszMlrQNE



That was a great video and doesnt apply at all to what would be produced with 120V home wiring. The video produced an arc flash of 25,000 amps according to the title. 

When you put a meter set to AC Volts and on a setting that has a range higher than the expected voltage across a hot point and say the ground wire there is no load in the circuit to regulate the current that is the worst case for potential arc flash as it will instantaneously draw as much as the transformer on the pole could provide in the case of a dead short. In the case of fuses they will heat and blow quickly in the case of a circuit breaker they will hopefully open. Huge inrush currents have been known to weld a breakers contact shut. With the fan wired into the circuit the fan is a load and would regulate the amount of current that could go thru the circuit to maybe 2 amps. 

Say the failure wasnt the switch and the fan had somehow developed a dead short inside it and removing the switch and touching the wires together would crowbar the circuit. Just as touching a jumper between the screws to test the switch. Doing the voltage tests will tell you the switch is bad or a bad connection as in the back stabs. You can then take the switch out and check it for continuity with a different setting on a multimeter and determine if it was good at the screws and not the back stabs or just buy a new switch and feel safe it wont cause a dead short when you flip it on. My dad used to carry a 60w lightbulb with pig tails and clips. He would have taken the fan down as suggested and clipped the bulb on for a load that would both tell him the circuit worked and also regulate the current when putting the power back on.

Nothing wrong with having some load on a line IMO.


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> That was a great video and doesnt apply at all to what would be produced with 120V home wiring. The video produced an arc flash of 25,000 amps according to the title.
> 
> When you put a meter set to AC Volts and on a setting that has a range higher than the expected voltage across a hot point and say the ground wire there is no load in the circuit to regulate the current that is the worst case for potential arc flash as it will instantaneously draw as much as the transformer on the pole could provide in the case of a dead short. In the case of fuses they will heat and blow quickly in the case of a circuit breaker they will hopefully open. Huge inrush currents have been known to weld a breakers contact shut. With the fan wired into the circuit the fan is a load and would regulate the amount of current that could go thru the circuit to maybe 2 amps.
> 
> ...



OK I will accept that argument but I have never seen that in instruction.

But to the other side of the problem. The OP was told to check the switch with out enough info and then then he took the fan apart, with power still on
and the switch was the problem.
No body explained to him why he would get 120 reading on one screw and something less on the other.

So as you suggested there was a dead short in the system, the breaker would already be tripped so jumping the wire would have no effect.


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## bud16415 (Aug 16, 2016)

IMO when a breaker is activated in that manner after the problem is solved it wouldn&#8217;t be a bad idea to replace the breaker. In a second hand home you don&#8217;t get the history and anything is possible. The fan could have shorted and popped the breaker and did in the stab connections at the same time. The owner could have flipped the switch off reset the breaker and never turned it on again. You just don&#8217;t know. If I remember right the OP wasn&#8217;t even sure that was the switch in the beginning. I would have started at the switch and seeing only one set of wires coming in known the power came from the location of whatever it controlled. Checking the switch with a meter would have been all that was needed. Unless turning it on or replacing it popped the breaker again.


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

Having a meter in hand does not make an electrician, it's pretty clear that John does not have a full grasp on how this stuff works.

He was told to check the switch and the switch failed the test, no one told him to change the switch.


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## slownsteady (Aug 16, 2016)

You guys are using the meter two different ways. Get it together.
Neal; where did you get that video? From the 1950's?


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## bud16415 (Aug 16, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> You guys are using the meter two different ways. Get it together.
> Neal; where did you get that video? From the 1950's?



Yep it was from the 50s OHSA wont let you ground out a 25,000 amp power source just to make a safety video these days. 

Ahhh for the good ol days. :nono:


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## bud16415 (Aug 16, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Having a meter in hand does not make an electrician,


Most of the builders here have an easy rider rifle rack with a 4 foot level hanging from it in their truck and that makes them a contractor. 

I always figured a meter and a roll of black tape and you were good to go as an electrician.  :hide:


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Most of the builders here have an easy rider rifle rack with a 4 foot level hanging from it in their truck and that makes them a contractor.
> 
> I always figured a meter and a roll of black tape and you were good to go as an electrician.  :hide:



And a plumber knows that crap runs down hill and payday is every other friday


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> You guys are using the meter two different ways. Get it together.
> Neal; where did you get that video? From the 1950's?



outerweb.........


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## bud16415 (Aug 16, 2016)

nealtw said:


> And a plumber knows that crap runs down hill and payday is every other friday



Not sure about Canada but here thats only a union plumber.


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## bud16415 (Aug 16, 2016)

nealtw said:


> outerweb.........



A young Rod Serling made that video when he was still going to film school. Who would have ever guessed.


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Not sure about Canada but here that&#8217;s only a union plumber.



Used to take equipment into industrial plants and we had you use their sparky to wire us into a box, we used tell them we would turn on the breaker when we needed it so we could check there work,
They always knew the white went to neutral, with 3 wire 240, guess where they put the green:down:


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## farmerjohn1324 (Aug 16, 2016)

Before reconnecting the fan, should I attach the two loose green wires to each other?


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

Yes, they should be attached to some metal or the bear.copper wire.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Aug 16, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Yes, they should be attached to some metal or the bear.copper wire.



They are both attached to metal casings. Should they be attached to each other? They both hang loose.


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> They are both attached to metal casings. Should they be attached to each other? They both hang loose.



Yes...................


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## slownsteady (Aug 16, 2016)

All of the ground wires should interconnect as well as any metal parts (junction box and fan housing). You can use the J-box as the common connector; i.e. all the bare wires are fastened to it. or you can get them all into a wire nut. Include a bare wire from the J-box if you choose to do it this way.


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## nealtw (Aug 16, 2016)

One above and one below the ball joined together works


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## farmerjohn1324 (Aug 16, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> All of the ground wires should interconnect as well as any metal parts (junction box and fan housing). You can use the J-box as the common connector; i.e. all the bare wires are fastened to it. or you can get them all into a wire nut. Include a bare wire from the J-box if you choose to do it this way.



I'm going to join those two green wires with a wire nut. Sound good?


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## bud16415 (Aug 17, 2016)

Each of your 5 cables should have a bare copper wire along with the black and white wire. All 5 of those bare coper wires along with the two green wires from the fan and light should be joined together with one big wire nut. If your box was steel (it is not) you would add another short piece of bare copper wire into the large wire nut and attach the other end to the box with a green screw. 

Connecting the two green wires together wont accomplish nothing. If the cables coming in dont have the bare copper wire then there isnt much you can do. In the old days that wire wasnt required. By code you need that wire or you need the power supplied to the circuit to be GFCI protected. Many homes are still wired without a ground wire and everything works fine they are not as safe as they can be and not to code. This room is your kitchen and there are a few other branch circuits running from this box and you are not sure where they go. If they go to outlets close to the sink and such that require GFCI you should think about replacing those outlets as well if they are the regular outlets now.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Aug 17, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Each of your 5 cables should have a bare copper wire along with the black and white wire. All 5 of those bare coper wires along with the two green wires from the fan and light should be joined together with one big wire nut. If your box was steel (it is not) you would add another short piece of bare copper wire into the large wire nut and attach the other end to the box with a green screw.
> 
> Connecting the two green wires together wont accomplish nothing. If the cables coming in dont have the bare copper wire then there isnt much you can do. In the old days that wire wasnt required. By code you need that wire or you need the power supplied to the circuit to be GFCI protected. Many homes are still wired without a ground wire and everything works fine they are not as safe as they can be and not to code. This room is your kitchen and there are a few other branch circuits running from this box and you are not sure where they go. If they go to outlets close to the sink and such that require GFCI you should think about replacing those outlets as well if they are the regular outlets now.



Will do. 10-4. Thanks.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 5, 2016)

I got the wiring to the fan hooked up, but need to put it back on the ceiling. It looks like it was attached to the ceiling using some type of epoxy. Is that the case? Which kind should I get?


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## afjes_2016 (Sep 5, 2016)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I got the wiring to the fan hooked up, but need to put it back on the ceiling. It looks like it was attached to the ceiling using some type of epoxy. Is that the case? Which kind should I get?





> but need to put it back on the ceiling.


 I would hope that the fan is attached to the hanging bracket by ball which in turn is attached to the ceiling box securely with screws. What you are referring to is how do you attach the canopy (the part that usually covers the ball and ceiling box). Normally all fans I have installed come with screws that go through the canopy and then into the fan ceiling bracket. I have never seen a canopy epoxied to the ceiling. It seems the previous person lost the screws and used maybe silicone to secure the canopy to the ceiling. The canopy actually serves no purpose of attachment of the fan to the ceiling. All it does is hide the ceiling box, conductors, and fan bracket from view to make it a neater installation.

I am going according to what I can see in the picture. If the fan is not attached to the ceiling bracket by the ball then you can not just epoxy the fan to the ceiling.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 6, 2016)

Yes, the fan is held in place by a ball to the bracket.

There are no screws on the top piece, but there are on the bottom piece. The top piece has to be held in place by silicone.


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## slownsteady (Sep 6, 2016)

You may not see screws, but there should be screw holes where the screws once were. These can be easily replaced.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 7, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> You may not see screws, but there should be screw holes where the screws once were. These can be easily replaced.



There are no screw holes. It needs epoxy.


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## nealtw (Sep 7, 2016)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> There are no screw holes. It needs epoxy.



There should be slots on the top side so you leave screws sticking out of the box just a little and that part just covers the screws and turns 1/4"


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 7, 2016)

If there is, it's covered by the dried epoxy.


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## nealtw (Sep 7, 2016)

Hold it up there and drill two holes shove some plastic anchors in the drywall and screw it up.:trophy:


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 7, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Hold it up there and drill two holes shove some plastic anchors in the drywall and screw it up.:trophy:



So now you're asking me to MAKE screw holes.

I'll just epoxy it.


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## slownsteady (Sep 7, 2016)

If you are absolutely sure that the fan itself is supported by the ceiling bracket, then go ahead and knock yourself out.


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