# Shingling over an old roof



## Will (Jun 24, 2006)

Hi

   I know sqaure eye and inspector D will probably say don't touch this job, but theres a guy who wants to shingle over 3 layers of existing shingles. They are in crappy shape I looked at them. Curled up and crunchy. I've never shingled over existing shingles before, only done it from the decking up which I admit would be preferable.But the guy just doesnt have the dough for that. Would I put felt paper or tar paper down first? Would I flash all valleys? It's a cross gable kind of roof. He wants it fixed because its leaking. It seems to be leaking near a chimney. but I'd rather go over everything because its such bad condition.
       Are there any other more "recommended" options anybody can think of in a situation like this if a customer doesn't want to rip off the whole old roof?

                                                          Will


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## Bridgewater (Jun 24, 2006)

Will we do alot what you wouldnt do jobs and if we were asked to put on a forth layer of shingles We Would Not Put Our name on it. That is the most stupid thing you could do. I bet the rafters are allredy saging and a big dip in that roof and ridge. He wana add more weight!?!? I roll my eyes on that thought.
BUT I know a guy that buys houses in Detroit and he will strip off one or two layers leaving the rest and get away with it!!!
You dont realy need valley roll just ice &water guard and shingle your low gable first and let shingle run into and up onto the main roof at least 16" with out cutting and run the main shingle to that valley over and snap a line and cut just a bit high, for not to hold debrey and alow run off.
I would tell this guy tear off and eaven though I aint seen a Pic. I would jack a knew wall in and proulbly sister in rafters.
I been around a bit, and can see what this house roof looks like. LMAO.


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## Square Eye (Jun 24, 2006)

Will said:
			
		

> I know sqaure eye and inspector D will probably say don't touch this job,



Will, have you considered going into another line of work?

People will try to take advantage of an inexperienced contractor and will land you in big-time trouble nearly every time. 
Then there is the liability issue. 
You will be better off to go to work for another contractor and get some real experience before you get sued.


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## Square Eye (Jun 24, 2006)

Will said:
			
		

> Are there any other more "recommended" options anybody can think of in a situation like this if a customer doesn't want to rip off the whole old roof?











Build a huge circus tent over the whole house.


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## glennjanie (Jun 24, 2006)

Hello Will:
To summarize what the other guys have said, *"Don't touch this one; he can't afford you and you can't afford to put your reputation on the line for him". I will gurantee this job will leak more after another layer than it does now.
Glenn*


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## Will (Jul 3, 2006)

Yeah I'm beginning to think doing the whole roof is the only option. I was just over there and get this, the only decking on the roof seems to be some kind of wood shingles. Ive never seen this before but looking up from the attick you can see them nailed right onto the rafters. No wonder the things leaking like a sonofa_gun_.


                 Will


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## manhattan42 (Jul 3, 2006)

New York State Building Code does not allow having more than 2 layers of shingles on any roof.

It would be a code violation to add a 4th layer to this structure and you will not be able to secure permits to do this job.

See section R907.3 of the _NY State Residential Code_:



> "New roof coverings shall NOT be installed without *first removing existing roof coverings* where _*any*_ of the following conditions occur:
> 
> 1. Where the existing roof or roof covering is water-soaked or has deteriorated to the point that the existing roof or roof covering is not adequate as a base for additional roofing.
> 
> ...



You can see for yourself the text of the NY State Residential Code here in Chapter 9:

http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/new_york/NY_Residential/residential_frameset.htm

Appear you have *ALL *of the above negative conditions present and no way would you be permitted or pass inspection for reroofing if you add another layer.


Should you add another layer, you will find yourself subject to fine, license revocation and damages...and be liable to correct any deficiencies in the roof system at your own expense.

Either convince this customer they need to have the roof done properly or walk away from this job.


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## glennjanie (Jul 3, 2006)

Will:
This one will have to be stripped all the way down to the lath (solid wood below the cedar shingles), then start back with plywood or OSB, shingle underlayment (tar paper/15 pound felt), and only then, the new shingles. Its going to be an expensive job and very time consuming; you must also verify a place and cost to dump the old roofing. Not every place will accept that material. Your best bet is to have a 30 cubic yard dumpster placed by a regular service and let them worry about the dumping. Bless you son, you're going to need it on this one.
Glenn


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## Will (Jul 6, 2006)

yeah I just got off the phone with them. I told them 6 grand including materials which youll probably all say is too cheap. Ive done roofs before and I sure _do _know a dumpster is a good idea. I don't know which way this ones gonna go but Ive defintely given up the idea of doing anything but from the rafters up, redecking with plywood and reshingling. I can see for myslef its not a good idea to go over the crud thats up there.


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## glennjanie (Jul 6, 2006)

*Way to go Will!!!* You've got it now hoss. Nothing about this one will be easy so, you gotta get paid for your work and trouble, plus a little for warranty work (just in case). I don't know how many sqrares you are doing but I wouldn't take it for less than $300 per square. 
We are all proud of you Will; give 'em h---. You will find there's no-one bidding against you. 
Glenn


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## inspectorD (Jul 7, 2006)

Well this is a good start Will. Another thing to consider when you think you didn't charge enough,if that's the case,is that this is an education you would pay for. Kind of like contractor college. You will always learn from the experience. 
Stay positive.
Good luck.


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## Will (Jul 7, 2006)

300 per square just labor? or including materials?


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## asbestos (Jul 8, 2006)

there is a saying somewhere

"it is not my emergency"
people are always anxious to make their problems your problems


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## Square Eye (Jul 8, 2006)

asbestos said:
			
		

> there is a saying somewhere
> 
> "it is not my emergency"
> people are always anxious to make their problems your problems



Yep, 

that's a trap that many new contractors get into. You must set your parameters before you write the contract. Then when you do write it, only do what the contract spells out. I have lost my (imagine what) on a few jobs this way. The customer wants whatever he can get for his money and the guy you describe, "not having any money" may be one to lay a burden on you without intending to. 

Good point Asbestos!


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## glennjanie (Jul 8, 2006)

Will:
I was thinking total price but don't let me lower your price;I just said I wouldn't touch it for less.
I have done some tear off and replace for $100 per square (long ago) and still felt like I'd got the shaft. How many squares are you doing?
Glenn


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## Will (Jul 12, 2006)

if we do the whole roof 12 squares. we already pretty much priced it out with materials so wed be working for pretty cheap considering all the danger and hassle involved if we did the whole job for 3600. The materials came to like 1800. So for two guys 1800 dollars for that jjob seemed too cheap. I said like 3000 labor. actually maybe I could go a LITTLE lower on that but I dont want to go too much. I guess theoretically I could make liek 1200 dollars and my helper could make 800, take the labor down to 2000, but I think we should get some more than that.


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## Square Eye (Jul 12, 2006)

12 squares is a pretty small house, unless it's a two story.


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## glennjanie (Jul 12, 2006)

Will:
My take is "stick with the 6k price"; there's nothing about it that's going to be easy and yes, you and your helper deserve to be paid for it. 
Don't mention the lower price in front of the customer or he will take it. Once again, you'll find there's no one bidding against you. And, if someone wants the job for less, just let him lose his a-- and congratulate yourself on not losing yours.
Glenn


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## MONTY (Aug 28, 2006)

HERE'S AN OPTION. MY SAYING IS I CAN WATERPROOF A BICYCLEIF IT GETS IN MY WAY.
ON A CLEAR, SUNNY DAY, BUY A FEW BUCKETS OF:
*ASPHALT/CLAY  BASE EMULSION IN 5 GALLON CANS.
*WIDE, SOFT PUSH BROOM
*4 FT. WIDTH X 365' ROLL OF SPUN WOVEN POLYESTER FABRIC "RETRO-MAT"
CALL 817-451-2121...ABC SUPPLY IN FORT WORTH, TX. & TELL THEM YOU WANT THE 4 OZ. &* HAVE IT SHIPPED TO YOU. IT WEIGHS HARDLY ANYTHING. THROW A 4' ROLL ON THE ROOF. YOU JUST STOCKED WHAT IS EQUIVALENT TO 1,350 SFOF MEMBRANE IN LIEU OF 39 BUNDLES OF SHINGLES.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
*POUR OUT CLAY OVER SHINGLES & WORK IN WITH BROOM. IMMEDIATELY **ROLL OUT POLYESTER IN A RELAXED FORM. WRINKLES DONT MATTER.
***SOFTLY GLIDE BROOMOVER MAT TO CONFORM TO IRREGULAR SURFACE & EMBED...WHILE WET.
****ALLOW TO DRY AT LEAST AN HOUR & NOW TOPCOAT WITH EMULSION.
THIS WILL FORM A SEAMLESS MEMBRANE & WATERPROOFMEMBRANE WITH A PRODUCT THAT ONLY GETS BETTER AS IT AGES.
AS FAR AS CODE COMPLIANCE, YOUR MERELY INSTALLING A COATING, OR MAINTENANCE SYSTEM. THE WEIGHT OF WHAT YOU ARE INSTALLING WILL ONLY BE AROUND 80 LBS PER 100 SF.
*****APPLY ALUMINIZED ASPHALT EMULSION THE FOLLOWING DAY TO PRESERVE & REFLECT UV RAYS.
NOTE: IT'S SUGGESTED TO INSTALL A 2nd LAYER OF TOPCOAT ON THE 2nd DAY AFTER 1st LAYER CURES, OR DRIES OUT.
AVERAGE RATIO PER MAN: 18 TO 25 SQ. A DAY.
NOTE: I'D SAY RUN YOUR FABRIC VERTICALLY IN LIEU OF HORIZONTAL. THIS IS TO KEEP FROM TRACKING OVER NEWLY INSTALLED FABRIC WHILE WET.
LAP FABRIC BY 4".
ENSURE ALL WRINKLES ARE COATED & PRODUCT IS "WORKED IN"
DO NOT _DRAG_ BROOM IN A LAZY MANNER ON BASE COAT. LIGHTLY PICK UP ON IT TO ENSURE A THOROUGH COATING OF BASE CLAY.
AS FAR AS CHIMNEY,WALLS, VENTSETC. SIMPLY RETROFIT A FABRIC UP ONTO & WET IN.
SINCE THIS IS A REMODEL TO EXISTING, IT'S TAX FRIENDLY.
ALSO, IF THERE'S ANY NAILS PROTRUDING, PULL OUT & SEAL WITH A RUBBERIZED PLASTIC CEMENT BEFORE COATING.
GOOD LUCK ON  IT. THIS IS A SIMPLE SCOPE THAT WILL WORK FOR YAERS TO COME.
THE SCHOOL DISTRICTS IN LA HAS NOTHING BUT THIS ON ALL THEIR SCHOOLS.
MONTY


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## Handyman101 (Jan 23, 2007)

Will, I can tell you this much.....Rip them shingles off a there...all o them, replace whatever plywood is bad (water-damadged), put down the felt, and New shingles....its tough but thats the only way! Down here in south carolina, the local garbage services, licensed by the state, have all kinds of recycling services. Shingles...they used to dump in in the landfills, but now they go to a recycling plant, where they are ground up, and the metal (nails etc) get removed by a separating process, the grind goes back into service on our streets, mixed up with other asphalt type stuff, gets steam-rolled/tarred....result: A nice smooth roadway, and a happy EPA!


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## nin7 (Feb 2, 2007)

In Florida we can not install over two layers...Miami Dade codes states we have to tear off if two layers or more to install metal.  Good luck.


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## jjbean08 (Jul 31, 2011)

Saw that there is a discussion about shingles and old roofs. Our roofing company in Kansas City has some great articles about this and other related roofing questions and concerns. Personally shingles over an old roof are not the perfect answer but can be done and last quite a bit still.


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## BrianKiernan (Aug 2, 2011)

Along with the other 101 reasons you should not do a job like this, I don't believe and shingle company would back up their warranty on the product.

In other words there would be no warranty on the shingles from the moment you put them down.


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## oldognewtrick (Aug 2, 2011)

BrianKiernan said:


> Along with the other 101 reasons you should not do a job like this, I don't believe and shingle company would back up their warranty on the product.
> 
> In other words there would be no warranty on the shingles from the moment you put them down.



Shingle MFGs will and do warranty their product when applied as a nail over. They have instructions on how to do it. 

Is this a good method of installation...*NO*

Will I have a warranty...*YES*

Will I compromise the life expectancy of my roof...*YES, diminished by at least a third.*

Will I get a good value...*NO, when you look at the cost of shingles in the future, increased labor, you will pay significantly more in the long run.*


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