# Storm shelters



## nealtw (Mar 4, 2012)

Again we see people being killed by storms, we always see where people are hudled in a bathroom while the roof is lifted off the house. There has to be cheap ways to give most homes a safe place to hide and I can't believe schools and shopping centers blown down. I know the building code trys to address this but really. How much does it cost to bolt down a shipping container in the parking lot? How many people could squeese into a 50 foot container, safe from flying debre?
I think we need a new forum dedicated to storm shelters.
Neal


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## paul52446m (Mar 4, 2012)

That might come up with a lot of good reading and good ideas. There is really a need for storm shelters. I think it like a lot of other things, you think it will never happen to you. 
 I know i look at that big oak tree in my back yard and i wounder if my floor would stop it if i was in my basement.  Paul


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## Dionysia (Mar 4, 2012)

I often wonder why people don't still build the old-style storm cellars out in the yard. You can see them all over the place around here (NE Kansas) wherever there used to be an old house. The wooden doors are rotted off, but the cellar itself is usually sound, even after decades of neglect. They may not be glamorous, but they sure did work!


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## oldognewtrick (Mar 4, 2012)

A lot of the new, custom homes we work on are being built with "safe" rooms. We had a bad storm come through here Friday nite and the tornado that was west of town lifted and went over the area where we live. Really makes you think when you are looking down the barrel of some really big winds. Thank goodness we didn't have the damage around here they did in some other states. Prayers for those who suffered loss of life and their homes.


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## nealtw (Mar 4, 2012)

Oldog: Sounds like you had a close call. What do you have for a shelter? I would bet those old dug out shelters were root cellers and refridgeraters did away with that.
I want to here from people who can garrentee their families safety because they did A, B, or C and maybe we can get more people thinking that it is important.


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## JoeD (Mar 5, 2012)

The old fashion storm cellars were probably actually root cellars used for storing the vegetables for winter use or winter ice for summer use. Now that we have modern refrigeration they are no longer needed for their original use.


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## oldognewtrick (Mar 5, 2012)

Neal, we just have a full basement and we were about 30 seconds away from heading there. The Mrs. has been sick in bed with the flu and she said if she was going to the basement I'd have to carry her...so we stayed upstairs and watched it on the TV.


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## mudmixer (Mar 5, 2012)

Most tornado related deaths are from projectiles.

There is a FEMA design for a "Safe Cell" concept (many details and suggestions) over the past 20 years and is based on history and testing. Basically, it is a concrete or reinforced concrete block room with a NECESSARY concrete roof that can be built in a basement, used as a closet or bathroom or as a separate structure above or below grade. Wood is really inadequate unless the 3/4" plywood sheets (closely spaced studs) are laminated with steel plate to eliminate projectile penetration. The acceptance test is to prevent any penetration through the wall or roof by a 12' long 2x4 fired by an air canon at about 150 mph, so that explains why it took so long to come up with an unbuildable wood/steel system.

Dick

The standard is very good and give suggestions on on doors, door swing direction (into the safe cell), acceptable hardware (hinges, latches and number of each)and ventilation.

Most are built in basements or for a slab on grade home they become a multi-use room (closet, bath, gun storage, etc.). The are commonly built into new homes in tornado-prone areas. They are created to protect from tornado winds (up to 250) and much stronger than hurricane winds (125-135) once they a landed on shore.

Even a basement is not absolute protection from a tornado because of the extremely high winds. There were 2  children in the basement about 10 miles from here and they were sucked out through the walk-out end 50 feet away (one was drowned in a lake). If there was a safe cell, they would be alive today, but that is hind sight.

Tornadoes can occur in many places other than Kansas (Wizard of OZ) or Oklahoma as everyone has seen. Even in MN, we had the most tornadoes in the country 2010 (115). They are unpredictable, form quikly and are unbeleivable strom and not like hurricanes that are predictable, so a near by safe area


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## nealtw (Mar 5, 2012)

Dick: I read those codes too and looked at the tests, there all great reads for people with the money to retofit the house. It looks like every new house should be built with concrete stairs to the basement or a rated door on the coldroom under the front concrete stairs. I bet those kids would have been safe in a knack tool box bolted to the floor. 
I want suggestions for oldog to build for under $1000 that he could brag to his neigbours about and may be add to his business.


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## vette2020 (Mar 6, 2012)

I couldn't agree more. Especially with all the hurricanes the south east have faced within the past 7 years or so.


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## nealtw (Mar 6, 2012)

The Gulf must be hot this year so suspect it's going to be a bad year for storms. Code or not, I would be taking steps to protect the people in my house, anything is better than nothing.


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## oldognewtrick (Mar 6, 2012)

I keep forgetting that we have a spot under the front porch that I have stuffed with wheel barrows, an old air compressor, a tube we use to pull behind the boat, one of the big round coolers that you see in a convenience store, a refrigerator cart. Guess I just need to get rid of some junk and make a safe room. All I need is a door.


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## nealtw (Mar 6, 2012)

See how easy that way, all we had to do is talk about it. The door has specs. and don't forget the venting.


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## nealtw (Mar 16, 2012)

Oldog; Hows that door comming? I see more storms and houses lost with people hiding in basements.


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## oldognewtrick (Mar 16, 2012)

nealtw said:


> Oldog; Hows that door comming? I see more storms and houses lost with people hiding in basements.



Been to busy working on other peoples storm damage lately to even begin to think about purging the stuff I have collected and am resistant to part with.


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## mudmixer (Mar 16, 2012)

neal -

FEMA does not write codes, but the recommendations can be adopted by any authority. The most common use of the suggestions is for safe cells in a basement or a closet/bathroom because of the proximity to the living space.

Apparently, you did not really look at the FEMA Safe Cell suggestions. It has nothing to do with with the minimum standard codes. It is for life safety and is well done according to the increasing number of homes now built with safe cells. It all depends what value you put on a life.

I saw nothing it regarding concrete stairs or that it should be built below ground or under concrete stairs. The well founded details are very basic principals that can be applied to existing structures if the budget is limited. The details are very good and make sense. - For example, they say doors should open inward to allow people to get out because of debris and I have seen very few stairways where you can have room for an inward swing door under them unless you have a death wish. - Just a small detail.

The important thing to consider is that most deaths from tornadoes are from projectiles and that is the reason to limit the construction to concrete or block reinforced at 8" on center or, after 10 year program and testing a wood wall (studs at 12" with 2 layers of 3/4" plywood and steel plate screwed to the studs for the walls and roof (or concrete roof) has finally been accepted. Many deaths come from vertical projectiles as a tornado ebbs, materials are dropped at the terminal velocity that can be as high as 250 mph.

A tornado (up to 275 mph) is much stronger than a hurricane (about less than 120 mph after being on shore). Also, you never have time to run out for plywood for the windows.

Dick


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## ibdribbles (Mar 18, 2012)

Being from Florida, it's hard to get to the basement down here.  They have conducted tests and improved building codes for NEW HOME for hurricane-proofing homes but the problem exists with retrofitting OLDER HOMES.


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## nealtw (Mar 18, 2012)

Dick; Thanks for the input and I wasn't triing to pick on Oldog, I was just triing to start a dicussion about these things, as I think somehow some of this stuff may be just as important as what colour carpet or how big crown molding. I get it that new houses have safe rooms and people with money can retro fit an older house. The problem I see is that DIYERS aren't asking what improvements they can make to protect their family. 
I think I can recall one posting a sizemic upgrades and none about huricane hangers or strap ties or anything for storm upgrades exept for windows.


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## beckya (Apr 27, 2012)

When all is said and done, Mother Nature is the only one who knows what is likely to happen and no matter the safety features we try to put into place, is she's gonna getcha, hang it up!


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## CallMeVilla (Apr 27, 2012)

Do you see the business opportunity here?  A kit for retrofitting that meets specs could be licensed for local production by steel fabricators. (probably too expensive to ship)  . . .  OR, you could forget the profit motive and just make the design available online for free.  What do you think?


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## mudmixer (Apr 27, 2012)

CallMeVilla -

FEMA makes the "safe cell" recommendations on line for free.

Steel does not work for tornadoes, but it might be adequate for seismic problems.

When it comes to life safety and tornadoes, the process is not cheap, but it provides real life safety if the the suggestions are carried out completely. Don't skimp on the door hardware and wood or wood construction is generally not acceptable unless it is 3/4" plywood sheets sandwiching a steel plate for walls (studs at 12" o.c.), but wood is not acceptable for foundations or roofs/floors.

I have been through many shakes (Northridge, CA and others) and few hurricanes, but nothing is close to living through a direct hit by a tornado as far as an experience and a near miss is even better. Some theme park could try to create a tornado experience, but it might be too scary and the liability too great.

Dick


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## nealtw (May 3, 2012)

Every year we here about house being taken off the foundation and people being killed, we also see people that just got lucky by hiding in a closet while the roof was removed. I understand that there is a code and that is great but alot of people can not afford it.
Evan if you build to code, it only gives you a higher chance, there are no garrentees.
There must be things that folks could do for a few hundred bucks that would give a little protection.


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## nealtw (Oct 17, 2012)

Villa; I think that is a great idea and we could do it right here I am sure.
I decided to bump this thread because the number of views, it does show interest.
I am all for doing things right and to code but in this case, I am bothered when I here of someone hiding in a closet or bathroom. That said there are people who can't aford to live in a house with a safe room and maybe would like to do something about it.
If we figure that people in their safe room have a high chance say 90%, nothing is perfect. And the guy in the closet has a low chance say 5%, some survive. Can we not have a discussion about bringing the closet up 30% or what have they.
BTW, Oldog?


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## oldognewtrick (Oct 17, 2012)

I did get rid of some of my junk...not all.


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## nealtw (Oct 17, 2012)

Some of my junk is important to me too. I'm not sure I would protect it with my life.


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## Wuzzat? (Oct 17, 2012)

The numbers are not too bad
http://www.stormhorizon.org/weather-fatalities.html
but some areas are worse than others.

The only close-by tornado I've heard of snapped off the chimney and dropped it into the living room.  A mess, but no personal injuries.

An 80" long (the height of a doorway) steel or reinforced concrete pipe with a 3' ID seems like a good one-person shield against high energy high speed projectiles.  The curved surface will deflect all but a dead center strike.

Getting into and out of it may be difficult for some people and you may want an oxygen canister if a lot of dust will be raised.

Without water you can last 10 days, the absolute max I've ever heard of.  With water and no food, weeks.


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## mudmixer (Oct 17, 2012)

Wuzzat -

What you have heard about from a near-by tornado means nothing. The real numbers show that major reason for fatalities is due to projectiles and not a few chimneys failing too early. There are some drownings when people are sucked out of a basement like they did 10 miles from me.

How do you get out of a 3' concrete pipe (if it was not blown away)? Any debris will trap you and that is why FEMA suggests that the door should open inward to allow exiting after the brief storm.

People that have actually been in or near tornadoes take them seriously and usually have some plans for temporary safety if the twister wipes out the homes on the other side of the street (mini tornado).

Tornado shelters are not for long tern survival because the storms are unpredictable, strong (many times worse than hurricanes or straight line winds) and of very short duration. A pipe stuck in the ground with some scrap and cars on it would not be noticed when other survivors try to survive and clean up.

Dick


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## nealtw (Oct 17, 2012)

So should people grab their airhorn while they are headed for their hiding place.
Like the air horn in a can that dynomite people use.


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## Wuzzat? (Oct 18, 2012)

Mudmixer, can you recommend design guidelines for tornado protection methods, from the bare bones to the deluxe?
Just like insurance, the more safety you get per dollar is the better value.

Meanwhile I'll try to find what kind of PSF a 250 MPH wind exerts.


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## nealtw (Oct 18, 2012)

Lots of questions and answers here.
http://www.depts.ttu.edu/weweb/shelters/faq.php


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## mudmixer (Oct 18, 2012)

Wazzat -

You can find the recommendation by FEMA for safe cells at fema.gov (I think). Their criteria is for life safety, and projectile protection. When wind is generally not the critical item like a hurricane of wind storm design. The recommendations are based on years of testing and listing combinations of materials that have performed well with no penetration. This also includes doors (steel), hardware and common sense things like door swing directions and ventilation/pressure relief. The walls are generally reinforced concrete or reinforced concrete block. After years of lobbying, the wood industry got limited approval if layers of 3/4" plywood were laminated with steel and the stud spacing was correct (12" or 16"?). Roofs/ceilings are 8" reinforced concrete.

This is generally what is used for above ground (with a very substantial footing), below grade/in a basement or as a closet in a slab on grade home in some of the newer construction in tornado prone areas and as a selling point for developers/builders.

The FEMA standards are NOT a code, but guidelines. I have heard some municipalities have adopted it as a code item, since they have the right to do that if the state or model minimum standard is not adequate.

The key for safety is to have close proximity to the "safe cell" because of rapid and dynamic short term of a tornado.

We commonly have "blizzard parties" in the winter because blizzards are quite predictable, no one has come up with a "tornado party" except to sit on a deck and watch the clouds move and form while every TV station runs the Doppler radar constantly. - Not as much as a social event.

The wind velocity is not factor, because the possible winds and pressures are not documented and only refer to the wind and not a 12' 2x4 at 145 mph penetrating a wall, except noting those walls that are not sufficient and listing those that are acceptable including details. Just 250 mph may not be enough since reading much higher have been made on the equipment that survived.

Dick


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## Wuzzat? (Oct 19, 2012)

So, half the US is affected.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tornado_Alley.gif

I've lived in the 1 to 5 regions my whole life and never seen one, only heard about three nearby.

25 in a 48 yr period, one about every six months, would be enough to have me move.  Stress damages your health.

If tornadoes do not leave craters I'd say underground shelters would work, but in areas with a high water table this could be a problem.


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## mudmixer (Oct 19, 2012)

The high water table and slab on grade construction is the reason for building safe cells in the southern/mid west tornado belt, although an underground has no problems because the storm is very short if you can get to the shelter fast enough and come out days before the water table is thought of being affected. One in six months is not a concern because shelters are built for once in a lifetime.

Tornadoes do not approach horizontally on a "track", but also skip and hop and come down erratically. - Now you know why there are so many tornado chaser volunteers. The "craters" are often depressions that are filled with cars and home debris that was dropped from a few thousand feet because of the erratic action.

If you have ever been in even a mini-tornado or seen the total destruction it becomes hard to understand when you build or buy a home for more than a lifetime. People with basements have it easy because they only have to build a couple of short walls and find a way to get a non-wood roof and an acceptable door and hardware. The insurance covers the house, but at least you can collect and build something better.

After 4 months after Katrina experience, the most personal damage in MS and LA was from tornadoes spawned by the hurricane because there was no notice or preparation, but the politicians had the advantage of days of notice. Over 75% of the hurricane/wind damage I saw onb the west bank of NO was from mold and moisture from missing shingles and "whirly-bird"vents that let in the rain plus the occupants could not get access for weeks of 90F+ and humidity to minimize damages.

Dick


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## nealtw (Oct 19, 2012)

I still think something like this could be made into something and if it was tied to a concrete pad?


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## mudmixer (Oct 19, 2012)

Good luck, but don't invite me because I have seen the results for 40 years. It might help to provide a viewing point from the destruction of neighboring residents - It is just no tornado with weeks of potential paths.

If the shell survives, how do you expect to open the doors when it gets blocked by debris from miles around (assuming a stray 2x4 or bigger does not penetrate the "coffin").

A tornado shelter is not a misleading, childish solution for a major life safety problem. Either you go or you survive. The sticks can be replaced by the insurance company.

Dick


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## nealtw (Oct 19, 2012)

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Cargo-Container-Shelter
Dick; You seem to be saying, the people who can't afford the real 
 thing should just huddle in the bathtub, nothing more to talk about.


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## mudmixer (Oct 19, 2012)

If you are talking about using worthless cargo containers, yes, they are worthless as my bankrupt friend found when he tried to use them just as mere storage sheds and only a fool would think they offer any real tornado protection for life safety.

They may be cute and cheap and even get TV time spots during the weather show, but how many survive a tornado without a few yards on concrete in a hole just to keep it in place while you pray to miss any high speed projectiles penetrating and dropping debris or cars on it and then try to get out when the door is blockaded.

It is not a cute DIY project with no research or planning since it is life safety and not to preserve dwelling unless you really are serious.

Dick


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## Wuzzat? (Oct 20, 2012)

Any of these
[ame]http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=%22tornado+shelter%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8[/ame]
is probably better than standing in an open field and watching Death approach.


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## mudmixer (Oct 20, 2012)

Most of the search results to be from the 1950's "bomb shelters" that were built is vast range of criteria requirements.

Most of the "tornado" shelters are bolt down tin cans with doors opening in the wrong direction. The drop in shelters do offer improved protection from the main danger of loss of life. It is really funny to see a drop in below grade "shelter" with outward swinging doors that can easily trap the occupants inside from debris or even permit projectile penetration.

At least some of the hucksters did offer huge discounts (worthless item), but did some very limited testing a small portion of selected tests, but not equal to the concepts used by FEMA that started the funding much of the testing at Texas Tech, but none met the stadards the were developed for the "safe cell" that could be built for either buried, in a basement, in a garage or for use in a home as a closet/storage room with protection on all sides and be able to maintain ventilation and quick egress immediately after a tornado.

The proximity is very important since tornadoes form quickly and ony a fool would be out standing in a field with tornadoes expected. Farmers normall have weather alerts on their tractors for some advance notice to get inside  and grab a cup of coffee in case they have to go down the hall or into the basement in a minute or so if necessary.

A real tornado shelter (safe cell) is not a quick and cheap thing if there is a possibility of one. In MN, we are a step down on the risk level, but had over 155 tornadoes (F1, F2, F3) the year before. The F4s and F5s are what has caused the huge increase of safe cells to be built into new homes at a much lower cost than a rehab.

Dick


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## notmrjohn (Oct 21, 2012)

I was driving a van that was lifted by a tornado,  another time almost drove into  one if grapefruit sized hail hadn't made me turn around  minutes before it touched down on highway, that's one where I met caravan of "Storm Chasers" afterwards, disappointed because they didn't get killed, or even see storm, fools.  Have been within 1/8 mile ot two others. 1/4 mile from my home twister touched down , demolished many homes 4 blocks wide over a mile long. Did usual twister tricks, Brand new home built to new stricter storm code, completely leveled, next door western ballon frame home untouched.   Last thing it did B4 going back up was suck heavy metal 8X8x8 ( a small shipping container) box from under Scout masters carport, our troops camping gear was long gone including four large cast iron dutch ovens.  Box was found a mile away, ripped open and crushed.

  Grew up in Texas Panhandle. many storm cellars in area. One of first things settlers in plains did was dig a "fraidy hole"  They may have been used as root cellars but that was not purpose. Best place to be in twister is under ground.

During Cuban  Missle Crisis every vacant piece of land large enuff and Shopping center parking lot had fall out shelter on display. ( Home town had SAC base and Pantex where they made them atomical bombs, we "knew" Russkies was gonna get us. )  Shelter was small quonset hut to be burried in ground. 

Buried shelter of corrugated culvert is inexpensive, perfect shelter, doesn't even have to be very deep, 3 or 4 feet to top of pipe. especially if under reinforced concrete slab used as patio. Two inward opening hatches, sort of like airlock,   another exit ten or so feet down a culvert tunnel is additional.

last i saw on above ground safe rooms they were in the tens of thousands of dollars. Even here in Tornado alley, few folks even have cheap fraidy hole.   I think,due to randomness of tornado action, they "Watch the skies" and take their chances.  ( More folks get killed in traffic than twisters, but they still drive like maniacs.) And after all if hiding under school desk protects you from Commie A-bomb, cardboard box should protect from twister.

Shipping container, if buried with proper exit, would be good shelter. Not so good on surface. Aside from projectiles and cars from parking lot being dropped on it, bolting down would require as much excavation as burrying it. Also look at pics of containers after being storm tossed at sea. They are not as rugged as they seem.

Here's vids of semi trailers being tossed a few miles from me, last spring.  You can turn off sound to avoid  mindless news anchor chatter, or listen to my town being mentioned a few times.

http://www.wfaa.com/video/featured-...ssed-by-tornado-near-Lancaster-145976065.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/03/dallas-tornadoes-2012-video_n_1400954.html


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## mudmixer (Oct 21, 2012)

You are right about the type of containers that are usually available, but some are saved for a empty return trip on the jumbo ships.

Good, heavy duty containers are rarely found because they have value for many years (or decades) because they can do the job as long as they are functional.

We shipped 40,000 lb pieces of equipment plus spares (all wrapped) in containers. Some were open (sturdier walls because no roof) and the closed ones we added medical supplies and brooms as gifts to fill the "free" empty space. Our employees welded plates on the side to sign and date to keep track of whether they ever came back. It was surprising how many came back after 10 or 20 years.

The big problem with disposable containers is that they have the strength on the corners fpr handing and loading and bearing anything of the top of the sides is very questionable. The bottoms are very well built because heavy loads can be placed anywhere.

They can work buried since the projectile impact is not a factor, but the top is usually vulnerable from a life safety situation. Unfortunately, the doors open outward, so you need to make sure the debris does not block the exit.

Dick


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## notmrjohn (Oct 21, 2012)

"the doors open outward" Don't use those doors, weld um shut, install proper hatches. Many containers are actually crushed,  sent back as scrap. A friend of mine actually lived in a burried one for a couple of years.

If buried, welded door adds some strength but adding some "studs" and "rafters" inside is good idea. Also a couple of ventilaters, turbines for example as far apart as possible, along with couple of inlets. They need strong dampers in case twister is close, it can either suck or blow air into box.  twister that lifted me and van really made ears pop several times rapid succession, pulled window out of rear side.


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## Wuzzat? (Oct 21, 2012)

That is a very large hailstone.

"March 29, 1990: Last known hail fatality in the United States. Juan Oseguera, a nineteen year old man who died from head injuries after being hit by a softball sized hailstone in Lake Worth, Texas.[6]"


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## mudmixer (Oct 21, 2012)

Waazat - What does that have to do with a storm shelter? Any fool can wander around in field when there is a storm warning. A storm shelter does nothing in that case, it points out the possibility of very severe hail, but tornadoes do not necessarily keep up with tornado movement are horizontal movement.

A big chuck of ice is nothing compared to a construction material moving at 150-250 mph than can go through steel plate, let alone a mere aluminum hard hat.

Dick


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## notmrjohn (Oct 22, 2012)

mud, a big chunk of ice moving at 250 miles an hour is nothing to be laughed at.

 Mr Oseguera was not some fool wandering around in a field. He was killed by the same storm that spawned the tornado that tore thru downtown Ft Worth.  He was a 19 year old, attending college and working several jobs to support his parents and siblings in Honduras, he had just purchased a brand new truck that he was planning on driving back home for them to use in starting a produce delivery business. 
 The storm was a typical one for here, springing up quickly with little warning,  when he heard warnings of storm brewing 15 miles away, he  moved the truck to a more sheltered area behind pizza parlor where he was working.  He was 10 feet from  door back into building when hail storm literally erupted. News reports all made a point of saying truck did not have a dent on it.

The truck tossing tornado spawned a hail storm traveling roughly paralell but 5 miles away. TV was so intent on showing "live footage" of tornado they ignored other factors. People in hail area assumed warning sirens, if they could here them over rain and wind, were about tornado.  Huge hail stones punctured roofs wound up inside homes. Softball sized, some with great long spikes like medieval mace.

So I'd say death by hail has _something_ to do with storm shelters.


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## Wuzzat? (Oct 22, 2012)

mudmixer said:


> Waazat - What does that have to do with a storm shelter?


Chain of associations:
tornado (literal) > deadly storm (more abstract) > some storms cause large hail (literal but general) > some unlucky persons may be killed (abstract).
During my time in San Antonio as a guest of the USAF we suddenly had hail the size of golfballs.  The newer cars were damaged.  For a NJ native, this weather was flat out nuts.

Other thoughts: who's to blame? > Act of God, it seems the victim took reasonable precautions.

What's reasonable?  
People get hit by objects from space but nobody goes around underground in anticipation of this event.
With 1000 people/yr in the US dying from smoking, smoking is "unreasonable".

With the shelter doors, I guess having multiple exits in a star pattern will better your odds of being able to leave.  Having tools or signaling devices in the shelter may also help.


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## mudmixer (Oct 22, 2012)

Hail is meaningless for a typical "safe cell" built according to the FEMA developed methods. Anything else is a compromise with less protection interspersed with personal guesses as to the value.

More doors are a meaningless additional expense and increase the  potential for more problems and damage.

Big hail chunks do not fall at a real high velocity and the load is spread out over a large area and never cause any harm to a person.

If you have ever seen the effects during a Texas Tech test for projectile impact you will be impressed with what works and what does not work. Everyone is free to try a DIY plan and method and re-invent the wheel. The result is a compromise in life safety.

Chunks of hail are always great items (they do not melt quickly) to show on TV shows, but they can easily be avoided by using common sense at no financial cost.


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## nealtw (Oct 22, 2012)

Dick: Are you kidding? Sun City directs people to the hall way in the center of the house or any room with out windows.
http://www.w1wab.com/SafeRoom.htm


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## notmrjohn (Oct 22, 2012)

"signaling devices" That's one of basic supplies, telescoping pole with red flag that can extended up a vent pipe. Days worth of water, jar of peanut butter, tinned crackers. 

 National Museum of Nuclear Science & History in Albuquerque has large exhibit of  Cold War Bomb Shelters. On display are several cans of "Universal Food", up to five gallon size. Glancing at ingredients it is horrible concotion of all kinds of stuff.

Of course you can go overboard in adding exits, still two exits as far apart as practical is recommended. With culvert fraidy hole, cost of extending 30- 36"  exit tunnel is negligible.

Terminal velocity of 3" hailstone can be 100mph +,  weight depends on its density but can be  over a pound.  Speed of stone depends on size shape, up and down drafts, horizontal winds, twisters can throw them horizontally.

"never cause any harm to a person" If he could, Mr Oseguera would beg to differ.

"Tech tests"  I went to University couple of hundred miles north of Tech. I had job in Kilgore Research center, in conjunction with Texas A&M we were firing 2X4's out of air cannons  before state/national politics took our grants away and gave them to Tech.  A few of my co-student/workers and researchers we worked for moved to Tech.  Not only have I seen results of tests I have been in lab while some were being done.

Hailstones "can easily be avoided by using common sense." I see you do "loss verification" but have you ever been in a real West Texas hail storm? How do you avoid something you don't know is coming? As Custer once apocryphally said, there is no real danger in Indian attack, you can see arrows coming and avoid them. Have you assessed damage from a storm such as recent hail storm we had? Several people were injured. Broken ribs, shoulders, concussions. Have you ever actually seen large hailstones? 

While maybe not directly related to your expensive in house "safe room," hail storm is not to be taken lightly.


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## Wuzzat? (Oct 22, 2012)

Are we getting anywhere with this except to say what 
doesn't
probably won't
will never
may possibly
work?

There must be something between standing in an open field and being in a missile silo with the hatch closed.

What is going on here?  

And. . .more important. . .why?


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## Admin (Oct 22, 2012)

Wuzzat? said:


> Chain of associations:
> tornado (literal) > deadly storm (more abstract) > some storms cause large hail (literal but general) > some unlucky persons may be killed (abstract).
> During my time in San Antonio as a guest of the USAF we suddenly had hail the size of golfballs.  The newer cars were damaged.  For a NJ native, this weather was flat out nuts.
> 
> ...



I'm about 30 minutes north of there and the weather can be freaky at times. I'm sure it's the same every where though.


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## notmrjohn (Oct 22, 2012)

"What is going on here?

And. . .more important. . .why?"

I dunno and I dunno. I apologize for going all berzerker.  I won't even try to justify it by tryin to explain what set me off.


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