# Pay flooring guy by the hour, day or job?



## o2284200 (Jun 17, 2015)

I have 966 sq ft of engineered to install on plywood sub-floor using the floating-click installation for three 2nd floor  bedrooms,  closets & hallway. 

The old  carpet, tack strips, nails & baseboards have  been removed and the sub floor vacuumed but it still has several loose areas to screw down and a small high traffic area approx 3'-4' to flatten.

I'm considering hiring a handyman, who has flooring experience...and a 12' "story teller"...to *assist me* on the rest of this job by providing labor only.    I will supply all materials and tools; except  perhaps for his 12' "story teller" cuz mine is only 8'.  

How would you pay flooring guy...by the hour, by the day or by the job?

Thanks!


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## bud16415 (Jun 17, 2015)

You are basically the contractor and subbing for some labor. I would pay by the hour and the hourly rate would start out at what I felt the guys experience level is or what he told me it was. I would be very clear up front that the rate is based on his performance and would be adjusted up and down once you had a feel for if he knew what he was doing. Hour worked is an hour pay you can fire him at any time and he can walk at any time being paid up to that point. If he agrees to that then great if not you have to deal with what he wants or do the job yourself. You are getting no great deal if you find someone to work for 10 bucks an hour if it takes them 4 times as long and on the same note if you get someone you pay more and they do a crappy job going fast that&#8217;s no good. 

I personally pay a little more than I think and find people work good for me and give that little extra. But I don&#8217;t hire much done also that I can do myself.


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## slownsteady (Jun 17, 2015)

If you're doing the measuring and planning, those are the hard parts. Installing the click floor is easy, unless you can't do that much up/down kneeling kind of stuff.


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## o2284200 (Jun 17, 2015)

Thanks!
Correct, I can't do that much up/down kneeling kind of stuff. ;(  Around here, one can hire a day laborer for $12-$15/hr...That said, for those with flooring experience, I've got 2 options, so far...One guy is in his early 20's and the other probably has 20 years experience.  These guys charge "by the day" and it's quite a difference; the younger guy wants $125/day and the older guy wants $225/day but came down to $200/day.  
Thoughts?
How many days, should this take??
What about paying "by the job"???


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## bud16415 (Jun 17, 2015)

They are both a pretty good deal if you can keep them working for 24 hours straight. 

By the job is a good way to go if you want a fixed cost to budget to. Just don&#8217;t come back after you find out it only took X hours to do the job and then divide the cost by the hours and complain he&#8217;s making $150 per hour and not want to pay him. 

Around here it&#8217;s snowplowing everyone tries to figure out, do you pay by the season or pay by the plowing. The people paying by the season want the guy to come every time there is a trace of snow and complain every time we get a mild winter and it ends up costing them $200 per plowing. The people paying per plowing complain when you come and plow because they only had 6 inches of snow in the drive. There is no right answer.


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## slownsteady (Jun 17, 2015)

I'm not in the trades, but I work on a day rate in my video business. If you've ever tried charging by the hour on odd jobs, you'd know why these guys won't do it. You get booked for a couple of hours and there's no real way to fill in your schedule for the rest of the day. The result: a $25 or $50 day. Can't live like that.
If you go along with a day rate, make sure you know and agree to the length of the day; 6 hours, 8 hours, etc. and how you will compensate if the day goes longer than that.
Also keep in mind that as the job nears the end, work will slow down, as that's when the details start to add up. More thinking=more time.


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## nealtw (Jun 18, 2015)

o2284200 said:


> I have 966 sq ft of engineered to install on plywood sub-floor using the floating-click installation for three 2nd floor  bedrooms,  closets & hallway.
> 
> The old  carpet, tack strips, nails & baseboards have  been removed and the sub floor vacuumed but it still has several loose areas to screw down and a small high traffic area approx 3'-4' to flatten.
> 
> ...



That's a judgement call. I think you will just have to figure it out.:hide:


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## o2284200 (Jun 18, 2015)

Wow, nealtw...No opinion? lol  
If nothing major unforeseen pops up, how many days should this take, including 250 linear fett of new baseboards?


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## nealtw (Jun 18, 2015)

250ft, so it is not one big room, and likely imcludes closets and adjoining rooms. Are the walls straight are the rooms square. How many boards have to be ripped. Baseboards gone , are the door trims gone or undercut.
Every detail takes time and with experiece can get fast but and then you have to consider the tools that are availible. I'm afraid the best I could guess is a few days, maybe a week..


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## o2284200 (Jun 18, 2015)

nealtw said:
			
		

> 250ft, so it is not one big room, and likely imcludes closets and adjoining rooms...





			
				o2284200 said:
			
		

> ...three 2nd floor  bedrooms,  closets & hallway.
> 
> The old  carpet, tack strips, nails & baseboards have  been removed  and the sub floor vacuumed but it still has several loose areas to screw  down and a small high traffic area approx 3'-4' to flatten...





			
				nealtw said:
			
		

> Are the walls straight are the rooms square?


 Yes


			
				nealtw said:
			
		

> How many boards have to be  ripped?


 Not sure, yet.


			
				nealtw said:
			
		

> Baseboards gone?


  Yes, all except hallway, where baseboards and parquet flooring must be removed.


			
				nealtw said:
			
		

> are the door trims gone or undercut?


  No, still need to undercut.

So, here's the plan...

1) Remove baseboards and parquet flooring in hallway.
2) Prep ALL sub-floor in bedrooms,  closets & hallway i.e. level/flatten, check seems & screw down loose areas.
3) Undercut door trim.
4) Install underlayment & flooring...One section and one room at a time.
5) Install baseboards.


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## nealtw (Jun 18, 2015)

o2284200 said:


> Yes
> Not sure, yet.
> Yes, all except hallway, where baseboards and parquet flooring must be removed.
> No, still need to undercut.
> ...



Ya, it's still a guessing game,  BTW how did you make out with the new front door.


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## bud16415 (Jun 19, 2015)

One thing that will add or subtract some time is if you want or dont want a transition strip in the doorways. I laid 500 sq ft once before the click together stuff when it had to be glued that went in and around 4 different rooms and areas and it took Im guessing 40 hours. I also had furniture in all the rooms to move back and forth. That included sub floor and leveling. 
More recently we did a kitchen and entry mud room all one lay that was about 300 sq ft of the snap stuff. It took me and a 85 year old helper less than 8 hours and it required a lot of leveling and messing around like that.


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## Rusty (Jun 23, 2015)

Pro flooring installers normally work by the sq. ft.


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## o2284200 (Jul 22, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> One thing that will add or subtract some time is if you want or dont want a transition strip in the doorways. I laid 500 sq ft once before the click together stuff when it had to be glued that went in and around 4 different rooms and areas and it took Im guessing 40 hours. I also had furniture in all the rooms to move back and forth. That included sub floor and leveling.
> More recently we did a kitchen and entry mud room all one lay that was about 300 sq ft of the snap stuff. It took me and a 85 year old helper less than 8 hours and it required a lot of leveling and messing around like that.


Thanks, excellent point!  

As far as transitions...I AM turned off by the number of transitions my floating install requires i.e. "all doorways, passageways or wall openings of 5' or less...as well as "floor spanning greater than 35 feet in length or width" and "floor areas interrupted by wall sections extending out of the wall, or floor areas which are not rectangular.".

That being said, your thoughts on the following video would be greatly appreciated.  Notice no transitions in doorway from hall into master bedroom, closets and/or where long hallway zig-zags.   It's not my flooring but it's a floating click-lock install from same manufacturer, which also requires transition moldings in in "all doorways., etc."

https://youtu.be/1ye3fA4M0lE


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## bud16415 (Jul 22, 2015)

o2284200 said:


> Thanks, excellent point!
> 
> As far as transitions...I AM turned off by the number of transitions my floating install requires i.e. "all doorways, passageways or wall openings of 5' or less...as well as "floor spanning greater than 35 feet in length or width" and "floor areas interrupted by wall sections extending out of the wall, or floor areas which are not rectangular.".
> 
> ...


 

My opinion is thats how it should be installed. All those strips to me are a short cut and an aid to help someone that cant figure it out. 

Like I said when I did the big job with the glue together T&G one of the reasons I did it DIY was I went in with a CAD drawing I made that showed all rooms and how the pattern was to be laid. The flooring place guy laughed and said they had no installer that would lay it like that in one giant piece. I said sell me the material and I will DIY it. He laughed and said sure thing. I ran into the guy a year later and he asked if I got it down and asked to see it. He came in the house and ran from room to room looking for a crack when he couldnt find one he offered me a job installing the stuff. I told him no way doing mine was more time on my knees than I needed. With the T&G and glue every piece had to be wedged to hold it till the glue grabbed. I would still glue the new stuff if I was using it in a kitchen or bath. 

I think the click together flooring shouldnt be a problem going room to room with doors. The flooring I did  a years ago snapped together and also had a metal strip that locked the bottom together. The old stuff used to have a pad below it the new stuff the pad is on the bottom of each strip.


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## o2284200 (Jul 23, 2015)

samfloor said:


> Pro flooring installers normally work by the sq. ft.


Thanks!
If a job measured 915sq ft but to account for waste 1000sg ft of the flooring was purchased, would pro flooring installers, who normally work by the sq ft charge by the 915 sq ft "measured" or the 1000 sg ft "purchased" ??


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## Chris (Jul 23, 2015)

They usually will charge the larger amount. At least that has been the case in my experience.


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## Rusty (Jul 23, 2015)

The reason a pro won't install it without the transitions is warranty. Without them, there is none. So if/when it fails, the pro would be responsible to replace it out-of-pocket.


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## Rusty (Jul 23, 2015)

o2284200 said:


> Thanks!
> If a job measured 915sq ft but to account for waste 1000sg ft of the flooring was purchased, would pro flooring installers, who normally work by the sq ft charge by the 915 sq ft "measured" or the 1000 sg ft "purchased" ??



The amount purchased if they have to handle it.


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## slownsteady (Jul 23, 2015)

samfloor said:


> The reason a pro won't install it without the transitions is warranty. Without them, there is none. So if/when it fails, the pro would be responsible to replace it out-of-pocket.



Why would the lack of transitions void the warranty?


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## Chris (Jul 23, 2015)

My house has no transitions at all. It runs about 70 feet by 15 foot in two rooms and a hallway. Been there a few years and looks great still.


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## o2284200 (Jul 24, 2015)

samfloor said:


> The reason a pro won't install it without the transitions is warranty. Without them, there is none. So if/when it fails, the pro would be responsible to replace it out-of-pocket.


Thanks!
My engineered flooring manufacturer told me "for floating click-lock installs, the 55 year warranty is voided, if transitions are not used per installation instructions on all doorways, passageways or wall openings of 5' or less...as well  as "floor spanning greater than 35 feet in length or width" and "floor  areas interrupted by wall sections extending out of the wall, or floor  areas which are not rectangular."...



slownsteady said:


> Why would the lack of transitions void the warranty?


 Per manufacturer..."Because it's a floating click lock install and the floor needs the transitions to expand & contract properly.".

So, I guess it comes down to looks vs warranty?!


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## o2284200 (Jul 24, 2015)

samfloor said:


> Pro flooring installers normally work by the sq. ft.





o2284200 said:


> Thanks!
> If a job measured 915sq ft but to account for waste 1000sg ft of the flooring was purchased, would pro flooring installers, who normally work by the sq ft charge by the 915 sq ft "measured" or the 1000 sg ft "purchased" ??





samfloor said:


> The amount purchased if they have to handle it.


Thanks!
So, if I already removed & hauled away the old flooring, underlayment & baseboards, and I'm providing new flooring (delivered & hauled to 2nd floor) along with underlayment & transitions, etc... ???


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## bud16415 (Jul 24, 2015)

If you are doing all that why don&#8217;t you just snap the floor together and DIY and judge if you want to use the transition pieces or not. I found the flooring for the most part is reasonably priced and the trim is very pricey by comparison. You have done the hard part of the job.


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## slownsteady (Jul 25, 2015)

o2284200 said:


> Thanks!
> My engineered flooring manufacturer told me "for floating click-lock installs, the 55 year warranty is voided, if transitions are not used per installation instructions on all doorways, passageways or wall openings of 5' or less...as well  as "floor spanning greater than 35 feet in length or width" and "floor  areas interrupted by wall sections extending out of the wall, or floor  areas which are not rectangular."...
> 
> 
> ...



So typical. Give a long warranty and then write out everything with disclaimers.

"The big type giveth and the little type taketh away."


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## bud16415 (Jul 26, 2015)

At our house I put in a floor that ran out into a little mud room. I asked her if she wanted a strip or smooth floor between the rooms. She said no strip and I knew the mud room was an add on and no basement and there was some winter movement in that room. I told her we might get a little crack in a joint in the doorway. She didn&#8217;t mind she liked the smooth transition better. Now a pro isn&#8217;t going to be able to do that. Because he knows if a gap opens up he&#8217;s going to be called back. Just like your mechanic wont weld up a part or straighten something he will sell you a new one. They don&#8217;t want that responsibility.


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## o2284200 (Aug 1, 2015)

I take it, if I already removed & hauled away the old flooring, underlayment & baseboards, and I'm providing new flooring (delivered & hauled to 2nd floor) along with underlayment & transitions, etc...Pro installers, who normally work by the sq ft charge by the amount measured.

That said, what all is typically included with pro installation i.e. remove & haul away the old flooring, underlayment & baseboards; provide new flooring, baseboards & all materials (delivered & moved into house), etc... prep sub floor, install new floor & baseboards, etc..?


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## Rusty (Aug 2, 2015)

slownsteady said:


> So typical. Give a long warranty and then write out everything with disclaimers.
> 
> "The big type giveth and the little type taketh away."



Just like a carpet wear warranty. Nylon doesn't wear. The warranty is based on the length of the yarn. The yarn just loses its twist and gets ugly.


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## HighRoller (Aug 7, 2015)

By sq foot is how the person should get paid, therefore time wouldn't be an issue.


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## o2284200 (Aug 11, 2015)

HighRoller said:


> By sq foot is how the person should get paid, therefore time wouldn't be an issue.


Thanks!
Only the one guy wanted to charge me by the day...Couldn't see that really working out.


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## HighRoller (Aug 13, 2015)

o2284200 said:


> Thanks!
> Only the one guy wanted to charge me by the day...Couldn't see that really working out.



No problem man. Remember by the day you'd have to literally sit and watch them work. They would stretch that day into a week if necessary and possible. I always try to find the best way to pay people, and if the person does a great job and quickly, make sure you tip.


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## nuthouse82 (Oct 8, 2015)

I sold flooring both retail and mill sales for nearly 20 years; ALWAYS pay the installer by the square foor.  Depending on your region the price should be $2.00-$2.50...Atlanta runs about that. He may charge a bit more is there is removal work and or "carry off." But no more than $3.00. And that is for a good bonded pro.


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## DOLLARFLOOR (Oct 9, 2015)

*WE RUN A SERIES OF FLOORING STORES THROUGHOUT THE STATE AND IN BOTH OF OUR BRANDS (DOLLAR FLOOR & FLOOR FACTORY OUTLET) THE INSTALLERS/SUBCONTRACTORS GET PAID DIRECTLY FROM THE CUSTOMER AT THE END OF THE JOB UPON COMPLETION AND FULL SATISFACTION. FOR VINYL PLANK FLOORING  THEY GET 1.00 PER SQUARE FOOT. IF YOU PAY THEM AT THE END OF THE JOB AND UPON COMPLETE SATISFACTION YOU ASSURE YOURSELF THAT THE INSTALL WILL OCCUR IN A TIMELY MANNER AND WITH DETAIL TO QUALITY. JUST MY OPINION. I CAN HOWEVER SEE IT FROM WHERE YOU ARE SITTING... PAYING THEM HOURLY COULD POTENTIALLY BE CHEAPER. THE THING ABOUT QUALITY LAMINATE AND VINYL CLICK FLOATING FLOORS IS THAT THEY BOTH GO IN VERY QUICKLY. SHOULDN'T TAKE MORE THAN 2 DAYS. :banana:::beer:

Installation Rates we use: 2.00 per sq ft engineered wood floors, 1.50 per sq ft laminate floors, 1.00 per sq ft vinyl plank and 4.00 per sq yrd carpet. The installs include moving furniture, pulling baseboards, removal of old carpet, installation of flooring and replacing furniture upon completion and when floor is ready.

CHARLES
DOLLAR FLOOR
www.justadollarfloor.com

Dollar Floor:
Orange City, FL 32763
Ormond Beach, FL 32174
Key Largo, FL 33037

Floor Factory Outlet:
Leesburg, FL
Ocala, FL
Titusville, FL
St. Augustine, FL*


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## slownsteady (Oct 9, 2015)

Good info Mr. Dollar, and welcome to the site. I hope you don't plan on using bold caps all the time. My eyes can't take it:banana:::beer:.......


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## Rusty (Oct 11, 2015)

DOLLARFLOOR said:


> *WE RUN A SERIES OF FLOORING STORES THROUGHOUT THE STATE AND IN BOTH OF OUR BRANDS (DOLLAR FLOOR & FLOOR FACTORY OUTLET) THE INSTALLERS/SUBCONTRACTORS GET PAID DIRECTLY FROM THE CUSTOMER AT THE END OF THE JOB UPON COMPLETION AND FULL SATISFACTION. FOR VINYL PLANK FLOORING  THEY GET 1.00 PER SQUARE FOOT. IF YOU PAY THEM AT THE END OF THE JOB AND UPON COMPLETE SATISFACTION YOU ASSURE YOURSELF THAT THE INSTALL WILL OCCUR IN A TIMELY MANNER AND WITH DETAIL TO QUALITY. JUST MY OPINION. I CAN HOWEVER SEE IT FROM WHERE YOU ARE SITTING... PAYING THEM HOURLY COULD POTENTIALLY BE CHEAPER. THE THING ABOUT QUALITY LAMINATE AND VINYL CLICK FLOATING FLOORS IS THAT THEY BOTH GO IN VERY QUICKLY. SHOULDN'T TAKE MORE THAN 2 DAYS. :banana:::beer:
> 
> Installation Rates we use: 2.00 per sq ft engineered wood floors, 1.50 per sq ft laminate floors, 1.00 per sq ft vinyl plank and 4.00 per sq yrd carpet. The installs include moving furniture, pulling baseboards, removal of old carpet, installation of flooring and replacing furniture upon completion and when floor is ready.
> 
> ...



No offense, but in my part of the country, with those labor rates, you would get the "worst of the worst".


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## DOLLARFLOOR (Oct 12, 2015)

No offense taken. Florida is very different than the rest of the country. You come here to retire and not work for sure. There are many corners of the country where you can make many times more money as a tradesman I agree. Keep in mind, here we sell through body porcelain rectified edge 24 x 24 tiles and even real engineered wood floors for only .99 per square foot. So it's all relevant I suppose. Other parts of the country these floors are selling for 3.00-4.00 per square foot and then of course command a much higher installation price as well I assume. The subs we use do excellent work and they each make in the 6 figures because we keep them very busy. Thanks for your comment and yeah, no offense taken.

Thomas


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## Rusty (Oct 12, 2015)

DOLLARFLOOR said:


> No offense taken. Florida is very different than the rest of the country. You come here to retire and not work for sure. There are many corners of the country where you can make many times more money as a tradesman I agree. Keep in mind, here we sell through body porcelain rectified edge 24 x 24 tiles and even real engineered wood floors for only .99 per square foot. So it's all relevant I suppose. Other parts of the country these floors are selling for 3.00-4.00 per square foot and then of course command a much higher installation price as well I assume. The subs we use do excellent work and they each make in the 6 figures because we keep them very busy. Thanks for your comment and yeah, no offense taken.
> 
> Thomas



I hope the wood you are selling doesn't come from LL. Most of the installers here won't touch it because of the poor quality.


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## DOLLARFLOOR (Oct 13, 2015)

Thanks for the info and yes I agree. I think LL had issues with their laminate though. The majority of our laminate comes from Germany and Sweden and ALL of our laminate is carb compliant. I'm not sure how LL got into that whole mess but it has been just that, a mess for them. We're in no way affiliated with them and the products that we sell aren't even from the same universe. The flooring we were discussing is the engineered wood flooring though. It's real wood. Everything in our businesses is good quality and only a buck a foot. I'm not here to advertise for free so I'll leave it at that. Just answering your question. I hear what you are saying and I don't think the installers around these parts would want to touch it either. :banana:

Thank you for your thoughts


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## nuthouse82 (Oct 15, 2015)

samfloor said:


> Just like a carpet wear warranty. Nylon doesn't wear. The warranty is based on the length of the yarn. The yarn just loses its twist and gets ugly.



While mostly applicable, not always true. While nylon does have better wear qualities than _most_ other synthetic fibers, the buyer needs to know WHAT he is purchasing...is he buying filament or spun?  That is a difference maker in itself, as a standard 6,6 filament nylon will out wear most spun yarns unless the carpet is a super dense 10 guage high stitch...too many factors to determine the wear of just the fiber only;  I had a spun yarn 65oz 10guage spun in my house for 15 years that wore like iron, while my neigbor had a 48 oz filament that had to be replaced after about 8 years.  Twist, guage, density, type of nylon...all factor into the wear of a carpet.



DOLLARFLOOR said:


> *WE RUN A SERIES OF FLOORING STORES THROUGHOUT THE STATE AND IN BOTH OF OUR BRANDS (DOLLAR FLOOR & FLOOR FACTORY OUTLET) THE INSTALLERS/SUBCONTRACTORS GET PAID DIRECTLY FROM THE CUSTOMER AT THE END OF THE JOB UPON COMPLETION AND FULL SATISFACTION. FOR VINYL PLANK FLOORING  THEY GET 1.00 PER SQUARE FOOT. IF YOU PAY THEM AT THE END OF THE JOB AND UPON COMPLETE SATISFACTION YOU ASSURE YOURSELF THAT THE INSTALL WILL OCCUR IN A TIMELY MANNER AND WITH DETAIL TO QUALITY. JUST MY OPINION. I CAN HOWEVER SEE IT FROM WHERE YOU ARE SITTING... PAYING THEM HOURLY COULD POTENTIALLY BE CHEAPER. THE THING ABOUT QUALITY LAMINATE AND VINYL CLICK FLOATING FLOORS IS THAT THEY BOTH GO IN VERY QUICKLY. SHOULDN'T TAKE MORE THAN 2 DAYS. :banana:::beer:
> 
> Installation Rates we use: 2.00 per sq ft engineered wood floors, 1.50 per sq ft laminate floors, 1.00 per sq ft vinyl plank and 4.00 per sq yrd carpet. The installs include moving furniture, pulling baseboards, removal of old carpet, installation of flooring and replacing furniture upon completion and when floor is ready.
> 
> ...



Charles is spot on accurate with this assertation.  This almost souinds like it came out of the NWFA handbook (National Wood Flooring Association NOFMA guide.  Best info yet. Bravo!



DOLLARFLOOR said:


> Thanks for the info and yes I agree. I think LL had issues with their laminate though. The majority of our laminate comes from Germany and Sweden and ALL of our laminate is carb compliant. I'm not sure how LL got into that whole mess but it has been just that, a mess for them. We're in no way affiliated with them and the products that we sell aren't even from the same universe. The flooring we were discussing is the engineered wood flooring though. It's real wood. Everything in our businesses is good quality and only a buck a foot. I'm not here to advertise for free so I'll leave it at that. Just answering your question. I hear what you are saying and I don't think the installers around these parts would want to touch it either. :banana:
> 
> Thank you for your thoughts



LL=heretics.


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## Rusty (Oct 16, 2015)

Lets just say, after being in the business 42 years as rep, store owner, inspector and installer, I will disagree with you.


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## o2284200 (Mar 15, 2016)

samfloor said:


> Lets just say, after being in the business 42 years as rep, store owner, inspector and installer, I will disagree with you.


 What do you disagree with?


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