# contractor plans to notch end of I-beam



## Hemi (Oct 31, 2015)

Hi, folks. I have a lake house in Michigan that sits on a high water table. It was built back in the early 1950's, and the floor sags considerably. The existing support is a steel I-beam that spans 33'; its concrete support posts appear to have tipped a little. We've contracted to have five new 2' x 2' x 2' concrete pads put down as footings, with five new 4" round posts with adjusting plates welded to them to shore up that existing I-beam and to lift the floor above a little. The existing posts will be removed.

The width of the crawl is 28', and we felt that the one existing beam wouldn't be sufficient if we were ever to build out the attic, so we are also having them install an additional two 8" 21-lb steel beams, each with the same footings and posts, placed between the central existing beam and the outer walls. My questions concern the way this contractor wants to handle installation of these two new beams. 

Before hiring this company, I asked the following via email: "How are the beams attached or supported at the ends? Do they sit on the top of the concrete block? Just trying to visualize how they are installed."

The salesman's reply was: "The beams will rest on the concrete blocks with a block cut out halfway (this is called a beam pocket) just as if it were new construction with steel shims to make sure they are at the proper height at the ends resting on the block. This is how beams are installed to code in new new construction." Sounded good to me, so I hired the company.

Well, I crawled under there yesterday to see how things were coming along. I discovered that they've constructed a concrete-block pier at each wall to support the ends of the two new I-beams... and it doesn't appear that they intend to create beam pockets by notching the foundation walls as the salesman had said. First big questions: Are concrete-block piers a legitimate way to support the ends of the I-beams? Or should I insist that they notch the foundation wall to create beam pockets?

I asked the foreman what was supporting these new piers, and he said they were sitting on the house's existing footers. I'm not sure this is true. First, are footers wide enough to support the existing foundation wall (concrete block) and a new pier next to the wall? Also, the lowest concrete block of each new pier was installed about 12"-14" below interior grade, or about 24" (guessing) below exterior grade. Does that sound like they could be sitting on the existing footing? That didn't seem to be deep enough to me. 

Now here's the biggie -- the thing that is really concerning me. At one end of where one new beam is to be installed, there are a couple of copper plumbing lines that run below a floor joist, right in the way of where the new I-beam will go. I asked the foreman if they were going to move the plumbing (even though the salesman had told my husband that plumbing would not be in the way -- guess he was wrong!), and the foreman said that they were not going to move it, but instead that they were going to cut a rectangular notch out of the top of the end of the beam. That notch will cut out I'd guess about 6" horizontally of the top flange and about 5" vertically of the web. This just doesn't sit right with me, but I don't know much about construction, structural engineering, loads, etc. Is this going to compromise the amount of load that the beam can support? Years down the line when we want to sell the house, will an inspector make note of the notch in a report? 

Thanks in advance for your help. They bring the beams in on Monday, and I want to have a little knowledge before I take the issue up with them.


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## frodo (Nov 1, 2015)

your description is very good.  but I am a visual type person.

can you take pictures of the beam ends,  what it is sitting on and area to be notched.

notching is never good,


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## KULTULZ (Nov 1, 2015)

It seems to me... :hide:...that a project this complex would require both an architect and a structural engineer, not to mention the plans having to be submitted to AHJ for approval and permits.

If any variance(s) should have approval from the very least the AHJ.


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## Hemi (Nov 1, 2015)

Hi, Frodo. Thanks much for replying.

I can't take pics of the beam ends or what they're sitting on, because the beam is not yet on site. Installation is slated for tomorrow. What I can do is post a drawing based on some bad photos and my flawed memory. I will take some better photos when I get out there later today, but for now, hopefully my drawing will help you visualize what the contractor says they're going to do. 

On the left you see a cutaway view of the foundation wall, with the new concrete-block pier next to it. Just above that you see a small circle representing the cross-section view of the copper plumbing line that is in the way of the installation of the new steel I-beam. My drawing is not to scale, but you can get the idea of how they plan to notch the top of the end of the I-beam, as well as how the I-beam will rest on the newly-installed pier instead of on the foundation wall.

I invite everyone to comment. Thanks in advance for any knowledge you can impart! I need to be armed with a little more than "I have a bad feeling about this" when I talk to the foreman.


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## Hemi (Nov 1, 2015)

KULTULZ said:


> It seems to me... :hide:...that a project this complex would require both an architect and a structural engineer, not to mention the plans having to be submitted to AHJ for approval and permits.
> 
> If any variance(s) should have approval from the very least the AHJ.



You'd think so, wouldn't you? Here's what happened with the permitting: I asked the foreman when they started last week when he thought the inspectors or township officials would be out, and he gave a nonspecific reply. Rough inspection and final inspection might both happen at the end of the project, or they may come out to do a rough inspection while the project is underway with a final inspection later. He didn't know if they'd even pulled permits. The reason I wanted to know the timing of the inspections is that we are also having work done on our detached garage that sits across the street (raised it on two courses of concrete block already, and new floor will be poured Monday) without permits, and we'd really like it if the inspectors didn't notice that. :hide: We had planned to have the garage wrapped up by mid- to late October, but scheduling a concrete contractor proved to be nearly impossible. So now the two separate projects are going on concurrently. Anyway, I think the crawlspace foreman called the office and told them not to pull permits at all. The project manager for the crawlspace work will be out tomorrow... I'll add this to the list of stuff to discuss.


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## beachguy005 (Nov 1, 2015)

I can understand them not wanting to notch the existing foundation but, to just install the new block and say it's on the existing footing might be an issue, especially if the new beam is supporting a lot of weight.  You could dig down to see if the new block is completely on the footing but given the width of a typical house footing I would want to know for sure if the new blocks actually sit on it and by how much.
If there were any permits pulled the would need an inspection on the footing before they even installed the new block.


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## elbo (Nov 1, 2015)

do not let them cut the beam as its strength will be compromised at that end. The beam is designed for that thickness for the amount of load it is too carry, if you cut away half of it then you lose half the strength at that end. Cutting it away is a quick fix to the problem. If they are going to cut it away to accommodate the plumbing, a better solution would be to drill a hole about half way down to route the plumbing through. also do not let them drill the hole any larger than they need to allow the plumbing through , and make sure they secure the plumbing to the beam with clamps that are insulated to keep the plumbing from rubbing on the beam as the plumbing  expands and contracts  (wrapping the plumbing with rubber should work ). If the plumbing is copper, make sure it doesn't contact any dissimilar metal
If you allow them to cut the beam, be prepared for a structural problem to arise some time after the contractor has deposited your check and disappeared in the dust
The beam should sit on the blocks and be secured to them. the best way is the pockets you described


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## elbo (Nov 1, 2015)

FYI-- the strength of an "I" beam depends on the top and bottom of the "I"   , if you cut off either, then you have a "L "beam which can and will eventually bend under the load that an "I" will support


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## nealtw (Nov 1, 2015)

If the permit isn't in the front window , you are on your own and not protected in any way.


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## Hemi (Nov 1, 2015)

nealtw said:


> If the permit isn't in the front window , you are on your own and not protected in any way.



:help: Is it too late to get permits?


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## nealtw (Nov 1, 2015)

No, you hired a contractor in good faith, just drop in and ask to see the plan that went with the permit as you were told there would be one.


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## Hemi (Nov 1, 2015)

Thanks for the responses so far. I think I'm going to have to halt work until 1) the contractor can show me that the new piers are fully resting on the original footings, and 2) they move that plumbing line -- I've decided to stand firm against notching the I-beam. Keep commenting! I want to learn as much as I can.

Oooooh, tomorrow's going to be a rough day.


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## nealtw (Nov 1, 2015)

Footing should be at frost depth for your area, I think I might be 48" below ground level in crawspace. A load on to top of a concrete or block wall will spread out at 45* speading that load to a geat section of the footing, a footing for a pier is most times much bigger the a footing for a wall. Going directly to the footing without geo-tech engineers report is a guessing game.
For the city to approve it with out looking at it on site after the digging was done, they would have to look at the original approved plans on file, if the house is more than a few years old, good luck with that.


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## Hemi (Nov 2, 2015)

Thanks, nealtw, for the additional information. What do you suggest I do at this point in the game?


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## KULTULZ (Nov 2, 2015)

Hemi said:


> I asked the foreman when they started last week when he thought the inspectors or township officials would be out, and he gave a nonspecific reply. Rough inspection and final inspection might both happen at the end of the project, or they may come out to do a rough inspection while the project is underway with a final inspection later. *He didn't know if they'd even pulled permits*.


 


...whew...

:2cents: What if? 

All of this is being done without a structural engineers OK or permit(s) being pulled? If there is catastrophic failure in the future, the contractor will most likely be gone or say it is out of the warranty period and you will be fighting your insurance carrier.


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## nealtw (Nov 2, 2015)

Demand to see the permit, and the plans stamped by the permit dept.. If they don't like that and don't want to stop while you sort this out, ask the permit dept. to red flag your house until the permit is approved.


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## Hemi (Nov 2, 2015)

What does it mean to "red flag" my house?


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## nealtw (Nov 2, 2015)

All work stops or contractor faces big fines if he continues, and he will have a hard time collecting any funds from you.


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## GBR (Nov 3, 2015)

What a mess.... the wall footing was not designed to support addition (FUTURE) point loads, period. Need it engineered. Water supply lines are SIMPLE to re-route- someone hasn't a clue... or the whole company. Get your Inspector in on this NOW... If you signed a contract, you may have more trouble- make sure the supplier has been paid for materials if, like here, you could be sued (with a lien) by the suppliers for payment.

Gary
PS. Welcome to the forum!


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## slownsteady (Nov 9, 2015)

I'd love to read an update on this thread!


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## frodo (Nov 10, 2015)

based on your drawing..NO    that is taking out half the beam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tell the contractor to STOP...either submit engineering approval for notch or

the manufacture of the beam signing off on the notch.

DONT DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Hemi (Nov 10, 2015)

Update: I put a stop to notching the beam. I got a heating/cooling professional to move the water line and another water/heating line that turned out to be in the way, so that the beams could be installed without any cuts. They ended up notching the foundation walls to create beam pockets as originally specified in the contract, and the piers are there for secondary support. There are also five jack posts along each beam.

The house stood for 60 years with only one beam down the center. This may not be the perfect solution, but the weight of the house is going to be better distributed than it has been.

Thanks to all for your input.


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## KULTULZ (Nov 10, 2015)

Hemi said:


> Update: I put a stop to notching the beam. I got a heating/cooling professional to move the water line and another water/heating line that turned out to be in the way, so that the beams could be installed without any cuts. They ended up notching the foundation walls to create beam pockets as originally specified in the contract, and the piers are there for secondary support. There are also five jack posts along each beam.
> 
> The house stood for 60 years with only one beam down the center. This may not be the perfect solution, but the weight of the house is going to be better distributed than it has been.
> 
> Thanks to all for your input.


 
I think most here feel better... :beer:


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## nealtw (Nov 10, 2015)

We all need good news here, keep us advised as the rest of the job is going on.


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