# Counter Beam Sizing



## Ron Van (Sep 24, 2021)

Hello. I’m planning on removing a section of a load bearing wall in our house (we moved into this house about a year ago). Trying to figure this house out is truly a mystery since it was built in several stages over a number of years. 

The wall to be removed originally was an exterior wall built in 1970 but somewhere in time, a 20’ by 27’ addition was added on to the house outside of this wall. There were also additions added on other sides of the house as well. At some time, the roof, including the truss system, was removed and a new roof truss system was installed over the entire house bonding it all together.

The question I have is about finding a load table for a Counter beam. I have tables for Hanging beams, strutting beams, combination Hanging and strutting beams, and concealed beams but I can’t find one for Counter beams.

Here are my facts:

Attached to my Counter Beam will be one concealed beam (A), and two Hanging beams (B and C). There is also a strut above Beam “A” supporting the roof peak.

My Counter beam will be 14’ long (ideally) and be supported at both ends but if need be, my wife has approved another support post in the middle of the house splitting my proposed counter beam at 11’ on one side and 3’ on the other. This additional support post would be under concealed Beam “A” and also nearly under the strut supporting the roof Peak. Since the wall I want to remove was originally an exterior wall, there is a foundation wall under it for the end posts to sit on.



Code in my area says:

Ground Snow Load - 10 Pounds Per Square Foot

Wind Speed 90 Miles Per Hour

Seismic Design Category - C

Subject To Damage From:

Weathering - Moderate



I’m going to say the proposed counter beam will be, conservatively, supporting 222 SqFt of roof (probably less) at (local code supplied) 10lbs/sqft snow load equals 2,220 lbs roof load. The weight is unequally applied to the beam at three points. Most of the weight comes from concealed Beam “A” which is closest  to an end post (or could be above optional wife approved post).



Questions:

1. Does anyone have a table or formula for sizing this type counterbeam? I was thinking two 2X12s sandwiched together. Is that enough?

2. Is the optional wife approved post necessary?


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## bud16415 (Sep 24, 2021)

I know you supplied a lot of information, but I’m still getting lost to some degree.



If a new full truss roof has been added outer wall to outer wall as you show in your drawings then that causes a big unknown as the trusses should need no load bearing walls if designed properly and spaced properly and if the outer walls are sized for the load.

I would strongly advise you to hire a pro with a proper eng. background to come in take a look and make a plan for you to follow.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 24, 2021)

You may be wanting the load chart as a self-interest for the design, however most building depts. will require an engineer signature, prior to approval.

Something else to consider, and your drawing doesn't contain enough information to address it, is that a building, which exceeds 3 X it's width, in length, requires an additional shear wall.


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## Ron Van (Sep 24, 2021)

bud16415 said:


> If a new full truss roof has been added outer wall to outer wall as you show in your drawings then that causes a big unknown as the trusses should need no load bearing walls if designed properly and spaced properly and if the outer walls are sized for the load.



Bud, You are correct. I used the word truss when indeed this is a rafter system built onsite that looks somewhat like a truss system in that there are no underpurlins or strut beams but the struts go from the center of the rafter to a center point on the ceiling joist (forming a "V") that is supported by a load bearing wall. They used hanging joists half way between the load bearing wall and the exterior wall. In the kitchen/dining area, it is open with no center load bearing wall so they installed a concealed beam "A" In hindsight, it seems they added on to the original roof system and then re-roofed the entire house to make it look the same. The attic is one continuous space indicating that they removed the original gable when adding the new 20X 27' room. It looks like a rafter system that somewhat mimics a truss system.




This is the original house. In this photo, you can see the hanging joists and the Beam "A".




This is the addition. In this photo there are just hanging joists.





This is the end of the Beam "A" where it rests on the original exterior wall. To the right of the double Beam "A" is hanging joist "C" which extends behind me as I took the picture.




This is the roof strut from the ridge to the original exterior wall. Notice the 15" offset from the roof ridge to the Beam "A".


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## Ron Van (Sep 24, 2021)

Snoonyb said:


> You may be wanting the load chart as a self-interest for the design, however most building depts. will require an engineer signature, prior to approval.
> 
> Something else to consider, and your drawing doesn't contain enough information to address it, is that a building, which exceeds 3 X it's width, in length, requires an additional shear wall.


This house is old and funky (like me). It was build in several stages over 51 years of time. There are (besides numerous additions), a second house built on to the first and connected together. they are truly separate structures but connected internally. The original structure with the addition in question is only 62.5' long and 25' wide. The new addition has a new shear wall (on the right side of the drawing below), so it shouldn't need a secondary shear wall. The wall to be removed, has a door in the middle of it which used to be the entrance door. I'm thinking (hoping) that the wall on each side of the door has shear wall bracing. I'm only removing the wall on one side of the door so there will be extra shear bracing.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 24, 2021)

Thanks for the clarification.

I, were it mine, be interested, from a historical point of view, in researching any documents presented for the roof reframing, or if there are records of those permits, on file.


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## bud16415 (Sep 24, 2021)

I’m sorry but your problem is well above my pay grade on this one. I have never seen a roof framed quite like that.



It seems that your rafters are continuous from the ridge to the outer walls so all loading is going in that direction and the bottom chord is the issue where the rafters want to push the end walls out under load. The diagonal truss like members were done to help with the length of the rafters distributing the bending force back into the old load bearing walls.



How you go about figuring out how much of that load is on that one line where you wish to remove the wall section I don’t know how to figure but I have a feeling with the direction the roof runs is the same direction the wall runs it isn’t going to be real high.



You could maybe add collar ties similar to what this new beam will want to do and help some.



These other beams that will hang from the new beam are mostly holding the weight of the ceiling not the weight of the roof IMO.



Again it is hard to tell as the framing kind of loops around between is the roof holding the beams or are the beams supporting the roof.


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## Ron Van (Sep 25, 2021)

bud16415 said:


> It seems that your rafters are continuous from the ridge to the outer walls so all loading is going in that direction and the bottom chord is the issue where the rafters want to push the end walls out under load. The diagonal truss like members were done to help with the length of the rafters distributing the bending force back into the old load bearing walls.
> 
> You could maybe add collar ties similar to what this new beam will want to do and help some.


I agree. It seems to me that the rafter force on the end walls is a bigger issue than my Wall Removal Project. Are you suggesting a collar tie on the rafter above my wall to be removed or all the rafters? I'm thinking all of them. Also, I think adding struts from the center load bearing walls up to the ridge would help with this rafter loading as well. What do you think about that?



bud16415 said:


> I have a feeling with the direction the roof runs is the same direction the wall runs it isn’t going to be real high.


I agree with this as well with the exception of the strut from the ridge to the Beam "A" above the wall. It potentially has some loading on it. I think this strut (currently) is holding 240 sqFt of roof load, which at 10lbs/sqFt snow load (Supplied by local code) equals 2400 lbs of force. I say "currently" because by adding another strut from the center load bearing wall to the ridge, I can reduce this roof area loading in half making it 1200 lbs. With that number, I probably won't need the optional wife approved post.


bud16415 said:


> These other beams that will hang from the new beam are mostly holding the weight of the ceiling not the weight of the roof IMO.


The hanging beams "B" and "C" are for sure just supporting the ceiling.



bud16415 said:


> Again it is hard to tell as the framing kind of loops around between is the roof holding the beams or are the beams supporting the roof.


You got me thinking though . . .I see what you are saying about the ceiling joists in most of the house are continuous from end wall to end wall and would be in tension with the rafter load keeping the rafters from pushing the end walls outward but where Beam "A" was installed, the joists were cut and attached to Beam "A" compromising the ceiling joist tension strength. The hanging beams that run parallel to Beam "A" probably transfer some (or all) of the tension load from the rafters, around Beam "A"  to the wall I want to remove. This is why you are suggesting the collar ties? If, the hanging beams, rather than imposing a down force, could be a tension force pulling outward. Is this the way you see it?


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## Ron Van (Sep 25, 2021)

Snoonyb said:


> I, were it mine, be interested, from a historical point of view, in researching any documents presented for the roof reframing, or if there are records of those permits, on file.


What kind of info would I get from these documents? More than what I can actually see was done? 

The weird thing is I know for a fact at least a lot of the projects were not done to code, especially with the electrical. Check this out...



This is a dryer outlet (old style 3 prong). The black romex in back is the 240v supply. The black wire goes to the left lug. The neutral white goes to the center and the red goes to the right lug. That part is okay. The white Romex is to tap a nearby 120 volt outlet into this circuit. The black is attached to the left lug, The ground from the white Romex is attached to the center neutral lug, and the white neutral wire is attached to the right lug.
At the outlet . . .




The black (Hot) is attached to the silver screws (should be neutral), the ground (that was attached to the neutral at the dryer plug) is attached to the hot side of the outlet, and the white wire is unused. Holy smokes! Who would do this? 

We had a home inspection done last year before we bought this place. Since then, I have crawled under the house, explored the attic (installed lighting in both places) and fixed many wiring issues. I built a wall, installed an exterior door, built shelves, installed a boat lift, and even built an attic lift requiring the removal of two floor/ceiling joists.







I try to do everything I can partly because I'm cheap and also because I like doing it.

I did hire someone to build a retaining wall since I knew it would take me forever to do it. The first guy who I called for a quote said that drainage wouldn't be needed behind the wall. NEXT! The guy that ended up doing the work was more expensive but did a good job. I am happy with the result. Proper drainage was a big part of the plan.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 25, 2021)

Looks like fun.

I'd be interested to find out if the gussets that are creating a stick-built truss were engineered, and what was recommended, as material.

I see you frustration with the 240V and understand that the person was attempting to satisfy the safety concern of having a grnd., and instead just availed a 240V in a 120V outlet. I would have just eliminated the grnd. at the outlet, and installed a GFCI recep.


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## mabloodhound (Sep 25, 2021)

Consider using a laminated beam(s).  The manufacturers offer a lot of data for load carrying which may answer your question_._


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## bud16415 (Sep 25, 2021)

Ron Van said:


> I agree. It seems to me that the rafter force on the end walls is a bigger issue than my Wall Removal Project. Are you suggesting a collar tie on the rafter above my wall to be removed or all the rafters? I'm thinking all of them. Also, I think adding struts from the center load bearing walls up to the ridge would help with this rafter loading as well. What do you think about that?
> 
> 
> I agree with this as well with the exception of the strut from the ridge to the Beam "A" above the wall. It potentially has some loading on it. I think this strut (currently) is holding 240 sqFt of roof load, which at 10lbs/sqFt snow load (Supplied by local code) equals 2400 lbs of force. I say "currently" because by adding another strut from the center load bearing wall to the ridge, I can reduce this roof area loading in half making it 1200 lbs. With that number, I probably won't need the optional wife approved post.
> ...


I think you are seeing what I’m seeing in your last paragraph. Collar ties the lower the better will allow the rafters to take the full roof load on the end walls and off the interior walls with all that bracing. You still will be dealing with the weight of the ceilings and a lot of that now is shared between the interior load bearing walls and the roof system.



Some kind of a new beam should be put in there and going extra large over what you might think isn’t going to hurt for sure. It looks like a bit of a problem getting long collar ties up there.

When you go to take out the wall you will need to support it temporarily on both sides and during that process you may get a feel for how much load it will be supporting.


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## Ron Van (Oct 1, 2021)

I decided to buy two LVL beams today after considering a GluLam beam. It seems the LVL is what is used around here and the building supply down the street from me has plenty in stock. I bought two 11 7/8" tall by 1 3/4" thick by 16' long. I will nail them together using the pattern per the instructions.


Here's a composite picture I stitched together (out of 4 smaller pics) of the wall to be removed.




I sent off an asbestos test last week for both the insulation in the attic as well as the popcorn ceiling. As soon as that comes back (assuming it's negative for asbestos), I'll start the demo.


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## Ron Van (Oct 1, 2021)

I do have a question though.... These hanging joists in this photo




Actually look like this...



I "think" this was done because the builder didn't use metal brackets to secure the joists to the hanging joist but rather used nails like in the drawing.  If there is another reason for this please let me know. I would like to secure the hanging joists to the LVL beam with joist hangers but the flat (horizontal) part of the 2x6 hanging joist is in the way. 



If the horizontal 2x6 is just a way to connect the ceiling joists, I don't see why the end near the LVL beam couldn't be cut to allow a joist hanger to be installed.



Or would it be better to use angled simpson strong tie connectors like this...




This is what I'd like to use


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## mabloodhound (Oct 3, 2021)

good choice on the laminated beam


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## Ron Van (Oct 10, 2021)

Our asbestos test came back negative on both attic insulation and the popcorn ceiling so I starting demo'ing the wall yesterday. I have a feeling Chip Gaines would have been done by now.




Beam "A" ( the main one) in the ceiling ... 




Rests on top of the wall here...



The 2 X 4 that the beam mainly rests on has been 60%-70% cut away to accommodate the light switch.



The weight is being transmitted to the 2X4's on either side of the compromised one indicating to me that there isn't a tremendous amount of weight on Beam "A". Does this seem logical?


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## bud16415 (Oct 10, 2021)

Ya Chip would be kicking it down and making a big mess and then the real crew of about 30 real builders come in and clean up the mess and do the rest.



I think you will need to take the ceiling drywall down a few feet back on both sides where you will be setting the new beam in. you will need to frame a temporary wall on both sides to hold it while you take the wall down and get the beam in for a flush ceiling when done.



At that point you will better judge the weight of the ceiling that is mostly carried on the wall. The ends of the beam will be resting on what? Will that have support all the way to footings?   

As to that switch box, why do people do things like that instead of just moving over to clear the stud?


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## Ron Van (Oct 20, 2021)

So far the "Remove a Wall" project is going well. I have to take some time off for an out of state wedding but here's where I am now. The wall has been removed





I then got my wife helper to throw the LVL beams up to me. I used two beams 11 1/2 feet long by 11 7/8" tall by 1 3/4" thick. I screwed two of them together using Simpson strong tie 3 3/8" long structural screws. I used 3 screws every 12" for maximum strength as recommended by the LVL manufacturer.




I fastened the existing main beam "A" to the new LVL with a 12gauge Simpson strong tie bracket and 50 - 2 1/2" long #10 screws.




The ends of the new LVL beam are supported by 3 - 2x4's on each side (more than the manufacturer's recommendation). The end posts are sitting on top of the house's original foundation wall. 






The temporary supports are removed. I will be able to cut the sheetrock on both sides of the opening to make the opening 3" wider on each side (6" total) because, right now, the sheetrock extends past the posts and the pony wall will be cut back 3 or 4 inches as well. The new kitchen quartz countertop material will extend to on top of the pony wall.

When we get back home late next week, I will demo the old kitchen cabinets and start installing new outlets for the new kitchen configuration. It will be different than the current configuration. Beside more outlets, I need to run a new 20A circuit for the microwave/hood vent to replace the current hood vent that doesn't have a microwave on it.

My fear is that the new cabinets will be ready before I am ready to receive them.


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## Ron Van (Jan 17, 2022)

I had to take a break for an out of state wedding and then we had some new kitchen cabinets and countertops installed but I just started to patch the ceiling where the wall was. I need to remove the pop corn texture, repair the resulting ceiling and put several more layers of joint compound on the patch to get it smooth. After that I can install new LED down lights and pendant lights


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## Guzzle (Jan 17, 2022)

Your house is collateral for your mortgage loan; don't tell the company what you are doing & have done.

A structural engineer may use a lally column & a load cell [a transducer which converts force into a measurable electrical output]
to measure forces &
then do vector analyses.

Run an extension cord as a long test lead to a known good ground & check every hot, neutral & ground lead with a voltmeter shunted by a 100w incandescent bulb.
For starters.
And document everything, for you & others.


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## Eddie_T (Jan 17, 2022)

Why the shunt?


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## Ron Van (Jan 17, 2022)

Guzzle said:


> Your house is collateral for your mortgage loan; don't tell the company what you are doing & have done.


Whether I have a mortgage or not has never been discussed on this thread but if I did, I can't imagine calling them to discuss my plans . . . and likewise, they never call me and tell me what they're up to.

I researched the roof load on this wall and feel confident that it is stronger than it used to be. I say this for several reasons. One reason is that a doubled stud that carried most of the roof load had been cut out by 70% to accommodate a 4X4 double light switch. The main concern, as Bud16415 said, is the load transmitted to the end walls.



bud16415 said:


> It seems that your rafters are continuous from the ridge to the outer walls so all loading is going in that direction and the bottom chord is the issue where the rafters want to push the end walls out under load.



As discussed, collar ties were added to the roof rafters to prevent pressure on the end walls but really, I didn't cut any ceiling joists. My beam is parallel with the ceiling joists. The ceiling joists were cut in the original construction to accommodate a ceiling beam that is perpendicular to mine. It has been like that for 51 years. Due to the collar ties, it's no doubt stronger now than it was.

I generally over engineer things I do. The installed beam is supported by posts that are 50% thicker than called for. The beam itself is thicker than necessary for the calculated roof load verses length of the span. The end posts are resting on the foundation wall of the house (the same foundation wall the removed wall was sitting on). As discussed earlier, collar ties were added to the roof rafters to prevent pressure on the end walls.


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## Ron Van (Jan 17, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> Why the shunt?


What do you mean, Eddie?


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## Eddie_T (Jan 17, 2022)

Ron Van said:


> What do you mean, Eddie?


Sorry, I failed to address it to Guzzle's comment;


> Run an extension cord as a long test lead to a known good ground & check every hot, neutral & ground lead with a voltmeter shunted by a 100w incandescent bulb.


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## Eddie_T (Jan 17, 2022)

BTW I tend to work they way you do, over engineer and skip the intrusion of inspectors, pulling permits and etc.


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## Guzzle (Jan 17, 2022)

A 100w bulb eliminates Phantom Voltages, if you don't have a Wiggy.


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## Eddie_T (Jan 17, 2022)

Guzzle said:


> A 100w bulb eliminates Phantom Voltages, if you don't have a Wiggy.


I've never had that problem.


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## Guzzle (Jan 17, 2022)

Everybody else has.  Romex has an inter-conductor capacitive of about 100 pF/ft & gives all kinds of voltage readings depending your meter's input impedance.

And >300' of Romex may trip a GFCI, with no ground fault.


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## Eddie_T (Jan 17, 2022)

Guzzle said:


> Everybody else has.  Romex has an inter-conductor capacitive of about 100 pF/ft & gives all kinds of voltage readings depending your meter's input impedance.
> 
> And >300' of Romex may trip a GFCI, with no ground fault.


Never experienced 300' of Romex or a GFCI but I usually use a small cheap analog meter for rough voltage testing. Plus I have never worked as an electrician.


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## Guzzle (Jan 17, 2022)

Never did house wiring for pay in somebody else's house & I still have my 1000 ohms/volt Radio Shack VOM from decades ago.  I keep it in my truck, it doesn't care about freezing temps.


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## Eddie_T (Jan 17, 2022)

Pocket knives and VOMs, handy tools.


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## Ron Van (Feb 21, 2022)

My daughter saw what we did and wanted to open up her house.


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## Ron Van (Feb 22, 2022)

Guzzle said:


> And document everything, for you & others.


Yes, I agree. I'm a big time believer in documenting everything. I am having to add Junction boxes in the attic not only for stuff I am adding but also to clean up the wiring mess that I inherited. On each J Box, I write what is in it as well as writing on the romex itself. I have drawn schematics for all the wires I ran. I have also pretty much figured out the existing circuits in the house and made a spreadsheet with all the CB's and what they control. I taped a copy of this spreadsheet inside of each CB box in the house (there are five boxes total).


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## Ron Van (May 15, 2022)

Update on the wall project...Finished off the crown moulding and floor baseboards and then installed some LVP. But first, I wanted to remove the original Stone step that was 8" high (rise) and put in two 5 3/8" steps that match the new opening size


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## Eddie_T (May 15, 2022)

I enjoy monitoring your progress. Kudos for design and implementation!


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## bud16415 (May 16, 2022)

Looks great and it looks like the end is in sight.


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## Ron Van (May 16, 2022)

bud16415 said:


> Looks great and it looks like the end is in sight.


Thanks. I'm in Alaska for the summer flying float planes but when I get back, I will start on the ceiling, both painting it and putting in LED can lights. I already ran the wiring and installed dimmer switches for lights. I also need to put more LVP flooring in. Then it's the master bed and bathroom that will get the focus. That will be another big project involving a beam and wall removal but my wife said I can't start the bathroom until after the 2022 Holidays. She doesn't want the house torn up during Christmas like it was last year.  While I'm gone, we are getting 7 Marvin Windows installed. They are black fiberglass frames with black PVC brickmould. We opted for casement style to get the largest viewing area and also to comply with the 5.7 SqFt egress code for the bedrooms. I can't wait for that!


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## Ron Van (Aug 16, 2022)

I made it back from Alaska! Bearly . . .


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## Ron Van (Aug 16, 2022)

I finished removing Popcorn ceiling. I used the Popeze scraper I got from Amazon. It worked well. I started before going to Alaska but just finished this week. It did not eliminate the mess but greatly reduced it. I started priming and painting yesterday and when that's done, I'll install the can lights.


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## Ron Van (Aug 16, 2022)

Popcorn gone!


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## Ron Van (Aug 16, 2022)

This video may work better


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## bud16415 (Aug 16, 2022)

Ron Van said:


> I made it back from Alaska! Bearly . . .


We have at least one black bear here and its been dumping the neighbors bird feeder every night and last week it was reported to be up town. They are scary enough but those monsters you ran into really would have had my heart pounding. I make sure I make some noise when I’m heading to the garage at night.



 Looks like you had a fun summer. Thanks for posting the movies.


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## zannej (Aug 16, 2022)

Ron, it is great to see the progress you've made. I had no clue about anything to be able to offer any advice or input. I'm glad you got things worked out. The popcorn ceiling removal method looks great. Made it look very easy. What was that contraption? I know there was a vaccuum, but what was the scraper thingy?
Love the doggies on page 2 looking at the new steps!
Great job!


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## Ron Van (Aug 16, 2022)

zannej said:


> The popcorn ceiling removal method looks great. Made it look very easy. What was that contraption? I know there was a vaccuum, but what was the scraper thingy?


It’s called Pop EEze from Amazon 



			https://www.amazon.com/PopEEZE-Popcorn-Ceiling-Scraper-Attachment/dp/B077Y8TWVB/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?crid=IHHV6MJR7H2L&keywords=pop+ez+popcorn+ceiling+remover&qid=1660703293&sprefix=pop+ez%2Caps%2C100&sr=8-3


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## Ron Van (Aug 16, 2022)

It works best if your popcorn ceiling hasn’t been painted.


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## zannej (Aug 16, 2022)

Sweet! I don't actually have popcorn ceiling but I watch DIY programs and see them struggling to remove the stuff and this looks so cool. If I ever do end up somewhere with popcorn ceilings and feel compelled to strip it, I know what tool to use. Too bad it can't make my pegboard looking ceiling tiles not look ugly. LOL.


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## Ron Van (Aug 17, 2022)

mabloodhound said:


> Consider using a laminated beam(s).  The manufacturers offer a lot of data for load carrying which may answer your question_._


I never acknowledged MaBloodHound for suggesting a laminated beam in post #11 rather than a built up 2x12. It worked out well! Thank You!


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## mabloodhound (Aug 18, 2022)

Ron Van said:


> I never acknowledged MaBloodHound for suggesting a laminated beam in post #11 rather than a built up 2x12. It worked out well! Thank You!


You're welcome. Glad it worked out.


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## zannej (Aug 18, 2022)

The laminated beam looked nice!
Also, I'm glad it looks like your microwave is at least 30" above the stovetop as per code. Some people put them too low. Nice kitchen!


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## Ron Van (Aug 22, 2022)

Got the popcorn off and applied a coat of primer and then flat ceiling paint. I need to put some can lights in and stamp it done. Has anyone used the LED can-less lights? I got some on sale at Home Depo.


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## zannej (Aug 23, 2022)

I think my friend may have used one of the can-less lights in a trailer but I can't remember for certain.

Ceiling looks great. Love the dining area. Nice table and chairs and cabinet behind.


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## Ron Van (Aug 23, 2022)

zannej said:


> Nice table and chairs and cabinet behind.


Yes, the table works great for family dinners. There are 8 chairs there now but we have 4 more we can use. 12 is crowded but 10 is not too bad, however, no one seems to mind.


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## Ron Van (Aug 23, 2022)

I was wondering about the can-less lights because a guy told me that he knew someone that had a light fail and it got real hot. The lights I bought say they are approved for contact with insulation in the attic. Heat would not be a good thing but I never had a LED heat up like that.


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## Ron Van (Aug 23, 2022)

I just ran a test of the canless LED and in normal operation, it just barely gets warm. Not hot at all.


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## zannej (Aug 24, 2022)

For peace of mind you might want to use some sort of insulation tape or create some barrier so the insulation won't directly touch it if you're worried about it. Better safe than sorry.

That's a good-sized table but I like it. Does it have an extra leaf to go in it? The various cabinets & furniture pieces look like the type my family likes. We have a similar china cabinet in the front room. Those ceiling fans with the fake leaves never looked good in the store but they look good in this room. (Sorry, I know this wasn't meant to critique your house and decor but I love it). 

I've found that the lights themselves don't get hot, but where the metal touches the connection for power it gets warmer/hot on LED bulbs. If it were me, I'd use some sort of barrier between the light & the blown insulation just to be on the safe side. The kind of insulation used to keep heat from dishwashers from messing up cabinets might be good. Or just some duct insulation tape.


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## Ron Van (Aug 24, 2022)

I got four lights in today. Twelve more to go! 

I had to be careful though. I experimented a little and found that if the canless lights are closer to the ceiling fan blades than 20”, the light will create a strobe effect on the floor when the fan is on.


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## Ron Van (Aug 25, 2022)

zannej said:


> That's a good-sized table but I like it. Does it have an extra leaf to go in it? .


the table has two leaves but they are in it now…that’s as big as it gets. With chairs on the ends, it has ten places. We’ve actually had twelve sitting there but it was crowded.


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## Ron Van (Aug 25, 2022)

zannej said:


> For peace of mind you might want to use some sort of insulation tape or create some barrier so the insulation won't directly touch it if you're worried about it. Better safe than sorry.
> 
> If it were me, I'd use some sort of barrier between the light & the blown insulation just to be on the safe side. The kind of insulation used to keep heat from dishwashers from messing up cabinets might be good. Or just some duct insulation tape.


Yes, I hear what you are saying. The paperwork for the lights claim they are suitable for IC (meaning insulation contact). To have the IC rating, the light is supposed to have circuitry to detect a high heat situation (probably by amperage draw) and shut itself down. I guess I have to decide if it’s worth worrying about it or not. Our old house had recessed cans that originally had 60w incandescent bulbs in they that really got hot. I should have worried about them more than these new 9w LEDs. But I still wouldn’t mind having something over the LED lights to keep insulation from falling out if I have to take one out for some reason. I was thinking of some kind of fireproof foam enclosure that I could make out of something. They make enclosures but they cost more than metal IC cans.


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## Eddie_T (Aug 25, 2022)

You're right the IC rating is to ensure that the fixture is able to dissipate its operating heat not to protect the insulation. I think I would trust the rating with no worries.


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## Ron Van (Aug 25, 2022)

zannej said:


> For peace of mind you might want to use some sort of insulation tape or create some barrier so the insulation won't directly touch it if you're worried about it. Better safe than sorry.
> 
> I've found that the lights themselves don't get hot, but where the metal touches the connection for power it gets warmer/hot on LED bulbs. If it were me, I'd use some sort of barrier between the light & the blown insulation just to be on the safe side. The kind of insulation used to keep heat from dishwashers from messing up cabinets might be good. Or just some duct insulation tape.




In doing a little research, I went to the building supply near by and the guy suggested using EPS foam board to build an enclosure. I told him my biggest objective was to build some kind of enclosure to keep the rockwool insulation from falling out if I ever remove the LED light. The EPS foam board says it is a "TYPE IV PREMIUM FIRE RATED INSULATION". I tried looking that up and I couldn't figure out if it's good or bad but further down in the product literature it does say it has a flame spread of < 25 (which is good) and smoke development of < 450 (which is good). 

I then found this video: 




The products are (from left to right): Sprayed in greatstuff (*closed-cell, single part polyurethane foam)*, Foam insulationboard, Number 3 was RockWool and then Fiberglass with kraft paper backing. In this test, the rockwool did great followed by the fiberglass (the kraft paper burnt off but the fibrglass didn't catch on fire. The foam insulation board (#2) burnt completely and the great stuff wasn't much better.

Another test that shows rockwool, treated Cellulose and Aircrete insulations being the most fireproof although in this test, they also had the kind of spray in foam insulation you would find in homes (not GreatStuff). All the materials did okay but the Aircrete was the best followed by rockwool.


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## Ron Van (Aug 27, 2022)

I finished the ceiling lights this morning. They are on 4 different switches . . .Kitchen, Dining/desk area, living room and hallway to utility room where the dog dishes are. They are all on dimmers except the one single light in the hallway to the utility/laundry room. The next project will be to install LVP in the Livingroom to match the kitchen/dining area.


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## zannej (Aug 31, 2022)

Nice! Your house is beautiful and the dogs are adorable. Love the markings on the one that sort of has stripes. Is that called brindled?


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## Ron Van (Aug 31, 2022)

zannej said:


> the dogs are adorable. Love the markings on the one that sort of has stripes. Is that called brindled?


Yes, Maggie is brindle in color. She is a Dutch Shepard. We got her from the animal shelter where we used to live. All our dogs are rescue dogs from some situation or other. They seem to be very interested in home improvement projects!


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## Eddie_T (Aug 31, 2022)

I like your use of moldings and interior decorating talent. I find myself wishing I could get a tour of your house. It would have made for a good before and after magazine article. Thanks for sharing your progress with us.


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## Ron Van (Sep 1, 2022)

I started laying the LVP flooring this week. 










Harriet still wanted to get her couch time!


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## Ron Van (Sep 1, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> I like your use of moldings and interior decorating talent. I find myself wishing I could get a tour of your house. It would have made for a good before and after magazine article. Thanks for sharing your progress with us.



Thanks Eddie. That’s a very nice compliment. I don’t know where you live but if you’re ever near Lake Guntersville in Northern Alabama, stop by!


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## Ron Van (Sep 2, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> I like your use of moldings and interior decorating talent.



All the decorating and color choices is my wife Ruby. She does a good job although she's not done yet. When I finish my end then she'll take over.




When we bought the house, 2 years ago, the stone wall in the back of the room was very dark. Ruby and her mom painted it. Ruby also hated the lights above the fireplace, so we changed them. There was ventless gas logs in all three of the fireplaces which I consider a health risk so we had Travis-Lopi Emberglo Inserts installed which are vented to the outside.





New Fireplace before wall stones were painted white.



Originally, There was a sliding glass door leading out to the laundry/utility room but the space where the slider was wasn't really wide enough and the slider couldn't close completely. It was drafty and not energy efficient. Also, to have a dog door, I had to install one of those glass panel inserts with a dog door in the bottom which was really a hassle and it really didn't seal properly either creating a problem for heating and cooling. I removed the slider and built a wall with a door in it and then I could also install a dog door. 


New door. This dog door gets them into the utility room and another door gets them into their dog run.


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## zannej (Sep 2, 2022)

The sun and moon thing reminds me of some Indonesian art. The masks have what mirrors some of the batik designs they do in Indonesia.


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## Ron Van (Sep 2, 2022)

I found this picture of the kitchen when we first looked at the house. The realtor must have thought we were crazy when we said, "Yeah, we'll just remove this peninsula and upper cabinets, change all the counters and cabinets, cut the wall out to make an open concept, and redo the floors!" The realtor was probably thinking, Yeah, right . . .keep dreaming! The woman that originally lived here said her grandfather made these kitchen cabinets in 1970.




Current kitchen from the same angle...


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## Eddie_T (Sep 2, 2022)

The change is dramatic and it's great that you and Ruby can partner in it. My wife did much of the design of our house, especially the kitchen.

The hinged door with the dog door was a clever idea (and looks great) plus egress is actually much easier with a hinged door rather than tugging at a heavy sliding glass door. I kinda wish I had installed a French door from our den to the patio.


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## Ron Van (Sep 2, 2022)

zannej said:


> The sun and moon thing reminds me of some Indonesian art. The masks have what mirrors some of the batik designs they do in Indonesia.


Before Covid, Ruby and I used to go to Hawaii on a semi-regular basis. Then, I was working in the South Pacific for a year and a half and one time, when I was returning home, Ruby met me in Fiji for a week. That was awesome. Anyway, Ruby loves the tropical look. The Fijians, seem to like the turtles. . .so does Ruby! We actually have turtles in the lake that come up into our yard to lay eggs. Ruby puts a little fence around their eggs to protect them.


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## Eddie_T (Sep 2, 2022)

That's so cool! A first cousin had a box turtle that she would feed. I saw it when I was at her 90th BD party in Kaw, OK. Someone said Alice there's Charlie. She kept calling his name and he would stick his head up to sight in on her and came right to her. By that time someone had gone into the house and brought her some pieces of raw beef to feed him. Another cousin (on her husband's side) said the turtle had been coming over 16 years.

BTW I worked a short time in Huntsville and rode a motorcycle to my hometown (Robbinsville, NC) a few times via Chattanooga and Murphy.


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## zannej (Sep 2, 2022)

I love box turtles! We used to rescue them. They liked to eat grubs we found as well as figs. They loved figs and blackberries. Fiji looks like a beautiful place. I always wanted to visit. My wood shop teacher apparently went to Fiji a few times and loved it there. I lived on some other tropical islands though and they were nice. Singapore is more of a big city and the ocean isn't as pretty but its very green and nice. Guam is beautiful but way far behind Singapore. It's very much like Hawaii from what I've heard (only stopped at the airport in Hawaii). I'm glad you were able to travel.


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## Eddie_T (Sep 2, 2022)

The Tennessee River is quite a river, some 652 mies long. As a kid I lived near the Cheoah River which ran into the Little Tennessee just below Fontana and Tapoca dams. Now I live near the French Broad River which may be the longest tributary (218 miles) in the formation of the Tennessee River. So we are connected by water.


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## Ron Van (Sep 2, 2022)

zannej said:


> I lived on some other tropical islands though and they were nice. Singapore is more of a big city and the ocean isn't as pretty but its very green and nice. Guam is beautiful but way far behind Singapore. It's very much like Hawaii from what I've heard (only stopped at the airport in Hawaii). I'm glad you were able to travel.


I didn't make it to Guam. I was stationed in Western Samoa but we flew all over the South Pacific. I was in Palau for a while, which is pretty close to Guam. It was beautiful there. One of the guys I flew with lived on Guam but he moved to Houston, Tx.


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## Ron Van (Sep 2, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> The Tennessee River is quite a river, some 652 mies long. As a kid I lived near the Cheoah River which ran into the Little Tennessee just below Fontana and Tapoca dams. Now I live near the French Broad River which may be the longest tributary (218 miles) in the formation of the Tennessee River. So we are connected by water.


That's awesome! I see the French Broad River is really long! So you live in Tennessee? That's a real nice State! I thought we were going to move to Tennessee. Ruby was looking at houses on the Tennessee River (or a reservoir) and she found one but it was in Alabama!


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## Ron Van (Sep 2, 2022)

I finished the LVP in the living room today. Before I start the next phase, Ruby and I are going to NY to help her brother move to Guntersville. We're flying to Syracuse and driving to Niagara Falls for a couple of days first. Should be fun! I'll be driving a 26' UHaul back.


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## Eddie_T (Sep 2, 2022)

Ron Van said:


> That's awesome! I see the French Broad River is really long! So you live in Tennessee? That's a real nice State! I thought we were going to move to Tennessee. Ruby was looking at houses on the Tennessee River (or a reservoir) and she found one but it was in Alabama!


WNC (not TN) I am near the origin of the French Broad River. I had wanted to move to TN after I retired but life didn't work out that way.


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## Ron Van (Sep 3, 2022)

I made this little video when I was working in Palau. I am wearing the Black Ball Cap. 




This one is when Ruby and her mother, Linda, met me in Fiji. We took a tour boat, the "Cruisin Fiji," out to Castaway Island where they filmed the movie "Castaway" with Tom Hanks. The video is long but at 9:50, we are at the castaway island.


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## zannej (Sep 4, 2022)

I love how happy you look in the Palau video. I chuckle about the name of Palau because its literally the Indonesian word for "Island". There were some islands around Singapore that were named things like "Palau Ubin" and "Palau Pawai". And there you have just Palau. Looks a lot like Guam. The tall stones are similar to the ones on Guam used for house supports by the natives.

Looks like you had a great time on that Fiji cruise as well. Love the underwater filming. Reminds me a lot of Guam as well. My dad loved diving and we always loved the ocean. I was a big fan of Jacques Cousteau as a kid.

The wooded part reminds me a lot of Guam and a bit of Bukit Timah nature reserve in Singapore. More of Guam though I think. The path away from the beach reminded me of the path to Lost Pond near Tanguissen beach in Guam. The "Help Me" with the rocks cracked me up.

Thank you for sharing those!

I was so excited with the videos I forgot to comment on the floor. Looks great! Nice layout.


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## Eddie_T (Sep 4, 2022)

The floor looks super!
I did four bedroom floors in rustic amber laminate. I wish the excellence of today's LVP had been available then. I considered using it for wainscoting in the toilet nook of the bath where I did recent plumbing repair. It's still an option.


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## Ron Van (Sep 4, 2022)

We got some serious rain today with lots of flooding but this video shows the need for a future project to fix the drainage in our yard. But this is some serious rain! A friend of mine posted a picture of people rafting in a nearby campground (Guntersville State Park) in a place that normally has no water! At times, it was raining too hard for the windshield wipers to keep up.


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## Ron Van (Sep 4, 2022)

I installed a sump pump In the yard to see if I could drain the yard from one spot. It turns out I’m going to have to do a lot of work to get this yard to drain right but at least I’ve found the lowest point. My pump was blocked with something during the rain we got today but when I cleared it, the pump started doing its job pretty good. 




Earlier today, there was quite a large pond covering this bucket.


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## Ron Van (Sep 4, 2022)

I installed some 3 1/2” extensions on the sofa legs today while it was raining. 




I bought some 3/8-16 x 6” long bolts to fasten them on but the problem was that the original shorter bolts were metric. They were m10-1.5mm. The local stores around here don’t have a tremendous metric selection and a 6” long m10-1.5mm couldn’t be found locally. So, I decided to go with 3/8-16x 6 and I would have to change the “T-nuts on the sofa to accept a 16 pitch thread. 







I used a shorter bolt to “set the T-nut into the wood and then re-attached the fabric. 




It worked and Ruby is happy!


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## Ron Van (Sep 5, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> The floor looks super!
> I did four bedroom floors in rustic amber laminate. I wish the excellence of today's LVP had been available then. I considered using it for wainscoting in the toilet nook of the bath where I did recent plumbing repair. It's still an option.


The LVP I used is Mannington Adura Max. It is 12mil thick with a pad built in. It was pretty easy to install.


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## zannej (Sep 5, 2022)

That looks like the rain out this way. LOL. My father's way of dealing with spots like that was to dig a deep hole (I forget how deep but I know he used a post-hole digger and it was more than 2ft deep) and filled it with drainage rocks. Called it a "french drain".Also made some trenches like that. Friend had to make a trench with drainage rocks to direct water away from his porch. If the sump pump doesn't work, you might try that. I think if you can break through a clay layer to anything sandy or that has better percolation below, it would make it easier to drain.

Love the longer legs on the couch. I hate when couches are too low and you have to struggle to get up. Or at least I have to struggle. LOL.


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## Ron Van (Sep 5, 2022)

zannej said:


> I hate when couches are too low and you have to struggle to get up. Or at least I have to struggle. LOL.


That’s exactly the problem! It’s too hard to get up and for me, and my knees are up in the air unless I put my feet way out. A super low couch is just not comfortable.


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## Eddie_T (Sep 5, 2022)

Funny but for some reason I wasn't thinking doggie door when I first saw this picture and briefly wondered if that was a framed picture on the lower panel. I guess it's a reflection. BTW if I had a doggie door I might have coons (or even a skunk) in the house. We also used levers on all hinged doors so that we could open doors with a knee if our hands were full, wet, greasy or dirty.


.


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## Ron Van (Sep 5, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> BTW if I had a doggie door I might have coons (or even a skunk) in the house. We also used levers on all hinged doors so that we could open doors with a knee if our hands were full, wet, greasy or dirty.



We haven’t seen a skunk yet but we have Raccoons, opossums (not possums), ground hogs, snakes and foxes but our dogs and cats seem to keep them under control. To get to the dog door, an animal would have to enter the dog run area. That area belongs to the dogs. 

You’re right about the lever door handles. Very handy when you’re hands are full of tools or groceries.


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## zannej (Sep 6, 2022)

Only drawback of the lever handles is when they snag on things-- like a pocket, the loop on a bag, a sleeve, etc. But I have levers on my front door so it makes it much easier to open when I'm carrying stuff. 
We've also had raccoons, opossums, and snakes come in through our pet door. Raccoons ransacked the place after a hurricane & they figured out we weren't spending the night there (no AC or water). They came in when they didn't know we were back though-- Saw two of them on their hind legs staring down the chiweenie (they were larger than him) while he barked at them.


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## Eddie_T (Sep 6, 2022)

Zann, as I meant to tell Ron here in the South we just say coon and possum. We're lazy it's harder to say "going racoon hunting".


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## Ron Van (Sep 6, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> Zann, as I meant to tell Ron here in the South we just say coon and possum. We're lazy it's harder to say "going racoon hunting".


HaHa…I was mostly just kidding. Most people don’t know there is even a difference between an opposum and a possum. So we have coons and possums in our yard but they don’t like dogs much.


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## zannej (Sep 6, 2022)

Ok, I'm curious, other than spelling, what is the difference between opossum and possum? We've had them come inside and make themselves at home a few times. Had one that I found out my brother was feeding cookies to. It initially played dead and he shoved a cookie in its mouth. It started chewing, sat up and then reached a paw out for another cookie. One day I found it with the plastic cookie jar on the floor trying to pry the lid off. It came in during winter and slept in a cat bed.


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## Ron Van (Sep 6, 2022)

zannej said:


> Ok, I'm curious, other than spelling, what is the difference between opossum and possum?


Here’s what Bob Villa says…and you know he’s an expert on animals?









						What’s the Difference? Possum vs. Opossum
					

Contrary to popular belief, possums and opossums aren't the same animals at all. So what are the differences between them?




					www.bobvila.com


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## Ron Van (Sep 6, 2022)

continued …


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## Eddie_T (Sep 6, 2022)

I think I first heard of the real possums while watching the McLeod's Daughters TV series. IIRC someone was rehabbing a possum. My wife and I enjoyed that series filmed in Australia.


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## zannej (Sep 7, 2022)

Ah, that's good to know. I'd never heard that there was actually an animal called a possum that wasn't just the shortened version of opossum.


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## Ron Van (Sep 7, 2022)

The one that used to hang out with our cats looked like the picture on the left above. He ate the cat food and the cats just watched him. He hasn’t been around for about a year so we figure something ate him.


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## zannej (Sep 11, 2022)

yeah, something got the one that used to come into our house. Made me sad. I liked the bugger. Much better houseguest than the raccoons. LOL.


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## Ron Van (Sep 11, 2022)

Find the one that doesn't belong... This is from our back porch last year.


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## Ron Van (Sep 11, 2022)

We made it back from Moving my Brother-in-Law from New York to Guntersville. We stopped at Niagra Falls before the move.


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## Ron Van (Sep 11, 2022)

We stopped at a place in Up State NY that a great-great relative of mine used to own. Now it's a tourist place. Natural Stone Bridge and Caves, Pottersville, NY. My Mom and Dad grew up here.


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## Ron Van (Sep 12, 2022)

These videos are easier to view...We made it back from Moving my Brother-in-Law from New York to Guntersville. We stopped at Niagra Falls before the move.


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## Ron Van (Sep 12, 2022)

These videos are easier to view...We stopped at a place in Up State NY that a great-great relative of mine used to own. Now it's a tourist place. Natural Stone Bridge and Caves, Pottersville, NY. My Mom and Dad grew up here.


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## Eddie_T (Sep 18, 2022)

I like the rear gable of your roof, is the front the same?


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## Ron Van (Sep 18, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> I like the rear gable of your roof, is the front the same?







There is a matching gable on the other side of the house but it doesn’t stick out as far as this one does. This side covers a good sized patio and the other gable on the other side of the house ends at the exterior wall. 




The gabled area is the patio where the arrow is


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## Eddie_T (Sep 19, 2022)

That's neat, sure looks like a retirement home one would be happy in (and keep you busy as well). I like interesting roof lines that make people from the street wonder what the floor plan is.


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