# If you fill a bucket with



## Wuzzat? (Jun 3, 2014)

moist, non-compacted mostly clay soil, will the bucket
A. float
B. sink
?


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## mudmixer (Jun 3, 2014)

What is the bucket made out of? Steel, wood or styrofoam?

Is it real somehow important?

In general, it would sink. With adequate information, I could give you an estimate of the rate of sinking if you know the density of the water (fsh or salt).

Dick


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## Chris (Jun 3, 2014)

It will sink, I've tried this at work several times.


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## nealtw (Jun 3, 2014)

Chris said:


> It will sink, I've tried this at work several times.



My first thougt was why would we need to know but now I have to know why and why more than once.


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## Chris (Jun 3, 2014)

No specific reason but we deal with water mains and broken water mains constantly.(when I say mains I mean the mains in the street usually 6" or larger) my guys try all sorts of things with buckets to see what floats and what doesn't or how much they can put in a bucket before it sinks and now that I am typing this I realise they are probably just milking the clock messing around. I can't remember but we can fit a sand bag or two filled with dirt and the bucket will float nicely.

I can show that pipe floats too, this is 10" C900 Class 200 PVC Pipe


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## nealtw (Jun 3, 2014)

When I was young I worked installing sewer pipes to houses, anytime we were leaving a pipe overnight we attach an elbow and filled it with water. We never had a trench full of water but I guess the boss had seen that movie. They always had a plug at the street for the test.


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## Wuzzat? (Jun 3, 2014)

I needed to know how much fill dirt I could take to the transfer station at one time without exceeding a half ton load capacity, which translates to, How many 5 gal buckets of soil would this be?

So I took a sample of soil and measured the volume and the weight, and the density came out slightly less than that of water.  

I didn't believe it so I put the (plastic) bucket in a pond.

It did float.

Whaddya', whaddya'. . .?


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## nealtw (Jun 3, 2014)

OK??  1000/(wt of full bucket -tare wt of bucket)


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## Chris (Jun 3, 2014)

Wuzzat? said:


> I needed to know how much fill dirt I could take to the transfer station at one time without exceeding a half ton load capacity, which translates to, How many 5 gal buckets of soil would this be?
> 
> So I took a sample of soil and measured the volume and the weight, and the density came out slightly less than that of water.
> 
> ...



We don't have that luck, ours sink. Stupid CA Dirt.


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## Chris (Jun 3, 2014)

nealtw said:


> When I was young I worked installing sewer pipes to houses, anytime we were leaving a pipe overnight we attach an elbow and filled it with water. We never had a trench full of water but I guess the boss had seen that movie. They always had a plug at the street for the test.



We usually center load the pipe with dirt especially when the rains are coming. My guys were in a hurry an "Forgot". I want to strangle them.


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## carnuck (Jun 4, 2014)

I wonder how many buckets this will take?






50 miles from the Oso, WA slide. FEMA says we should be "ashamed of ourselves" for trying to piggyback the need for a road to our community on that tragedy. 250 people's homes are cut off and they think we're just whining?


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## Wuzzat? (Jun 4, 2014)

carnuck said:


> FEMA says we should be "ashamed of ourselves" for trying to piggyback the need for a road to our community on that tragedy. 250 people's homes are cut off and they think we're just whining?


FEMA takes the high moral ground?  You should thank them for making it clear early on that you all will have to sue some agency to get this fixed.

You also notice that they are framing this as 
they are the parents and 
you are the unruly children.
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=shaming+behavior&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

My mortgage company also acts provocatively.  
They want you to act out of anger so they will have something on you.  Right now they don't.

Look up some of their scandals and then you can take back the high moral ground.  

If they've been sued for misconduct or incompetence it must be in the public record.  Does 'Katrina' sound familiar?
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q="v.+fema"&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
And if some agency did any civil engineering work in the area they might have 'enabled' this to happen, in other words, this event was 'reasonably foreseeable'.

BTW, if you can supply the shape and the dims of this mess I can probably tell you cubic yards. Eight hours x 250 people = 2000 person-hours of labor.  In my area it costs three cents per pound to dispose of fill dirt.


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## nealtw (Jun 4, 2014)

Carnuck, Have they found everyone that was missing, hope all is well for you and yours.


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## carnuck (Jun 6, 2014)

Luckily no-one here was swept away. It was pretty slow moving and eventually they claim we will have a catastophic fail. Now we have to fight the greenies (who want us to abandon our homes that AREN'T in danger but they may be "poisioning the river" even though it's not a new community)

I think only 1 person is still missing at Oso.


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## nealtw (Jun 6, 2014)

Are they offering to pay you to move, buy your house


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## carnuck (Jun 7, 2014)

They are telling us (250 people) to pick up an leave and forget we were ever there. Try telling that to the bank that loaned us money to buy. My wife and I put our life savings into building there to retire.


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## Wuzzat? (Jun 8, 2014)

I guess you could sue but that's risky and FEMA might have the court records sealed for cases that went against them so it will be hard to get a history for this type thing.

It'd be useful to find out what people did in similar situations in the past but how would this even be researched?  Civil engineering journals might have examples of successful outcomes and you might look for a journal that publishes cases of the Army Corps of Engineers.  

How much to clear this mess?  
By what method?  
How much for a new road?  
How much is that per head?

"class n. in legal (not sociological) terms, all those persons in the same category, level of rights (e.g. heirs of dead person who are related by the same degree), or who have suffered from the same incident. Whether a person is part of a class is often crucial in determining who can sue on behalf of the people who have been similarly damaged or collect his/her share if a class action judgment is given. (See: class action)"

Also, if there is a law library nearby you could look up caselaw for this type of thing.

Try http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/
They helped me once on an employment law issue.

If you get bids you are 100% sure of paying that price.  If you sue you are maybe 50% sure of paying some big bucks and it may last for years so the expected cost or 'expected value' of a lawsuit is difficult to calculate.

It'd be good if you could get this situation into the papers or on TV.

And I thought I had troubles.


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## carnuck (Jun 9, 2014)

The county won't allow permits to even touch the slide area until $100K+ is spent on an engineer who may/may not say it's possible. That's why we are going with a bridge across, against high opposition from greenies. Mostly because we are "selling" access to SNOPud to pay for 1/2 our bridge.

http://www.savetheskyriver.org/mircc-bridge-issues/

http://www.monroemonitor.com/2014/05/20/mt-index-riversites-bridge-story/


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## carnuck (Jun 9, 2014)

The county won't allow permits to even touch the slide area until $100K+ is spent on an engineer who may/may not say it's possible. That's why we are going with a bridge across, against high opposition from greenies. Mostly because we are "selling" access to SNOPud to pay for 1/2 our bridge.

http://www.savetheskyriver.org/mircc-bridge-issues/

http://www.monroemonitor.com/2014/05/20/mt-index-riversites-bridge-story/


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## nealtw (Jun 9, 2014)

After all is said and done will your home have resale value?


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## Wuzzat? (Jun 9, 2014)

I'll parse your links for the 'message between the lines'.  I can certainly use the practice.

You may also want to contact government oversight orgs but the one I went to said, in effect, 5000 people dying each year in the US unnecessarily is 'down in the noise.'  AFAIK your group has not yet suffered casualties.

Supposedly almost no one can stand The Truth, but you guys are about to be confronted with it.  
It's the truth about your state and federal governments and your fellow citizens.  
And it's not like you asked for this revelation.  It is being thrust upon you.

So far, 
$500K for a bridge.
"For HS25 Designs: Inventory Rating = 45 tons and Operating Rating = 75 tons."
That's quite a bridge.  

Why this bridge?  Why not "panel bridges; pedestrian bridges, including modular or fixed length trusses; vehicle or pedestrian beam bridges; fixed modular bridges; vertical lift, bascule, retractable, or swing movable bridges; pipe bridges"

14' wide by 140' long by let's say 10' high = 700 cubic yards of material to be removed.  To where?  By 140 trips with 5 cubic yard dump trucks?

What is the proximate cause of these landslides?

How much for plpes to deliver propane, city water and sewage to the 250?  
How much for a helipad?

Will the bridge, if built, be washed away by subsequent flooding?  There are 5, 10, 20 and 100 year floods but the time intervals are getting shorter due to climate change.

if it's 'the bridge or nothing', see

"
I quote D. V. Lindley's Making Decisions, "Lord Kennet was forced to admit that the planning procedure is unsatisfactory and it is to be changed in the future so that inquiries into major projects can consider the options instead of merely a 'Yes' or 'No' to a particular scheme."
"
This drama was played out in England
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1967/dec/11/stansted-site-and-third-london-airport
same issues, bigger bucks, more people involved.

The 'utility function' for restored access of the 250 is decidedly different than the others not affected by the slide.  The others just see their money gone with no benefit to them except the goodwill of the [politically unconnected?] 250.  
This is pretty hard to solve.

Here's the other side of the coin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravina_Island_Bridge

This
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_bias
is another subject.


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## carnuck (Jun 10, 2014)

nealtw said:


> After all is said and done will your home have resale value?



Yes, but @$100K less than before.


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## carnuck (Jun 10, 2014)

Wuzzat? said:


> I'll parse your links for the 'message between the lines'.  I can certainly use the practice.
> 
> You may also want to contact government oversight orgs but the one I went to said, in effect, 5000 people dying each year in the US unnecessarily is 'down in the noise.'  AFAIK your group has not yet suffered casualties.
> 
> ...



We took the red pill.



> So far,
> $500K for a bridge.
> "For HS25 Designs: Inventory Rating = 45 tons and Operating Rating = 75 tons."
> That's quite a bridge.
> ...



Because of heavy equipment and it having to meet modern highway standards. It would still be a 2 mile hike for me if we just had a foot bridge.



> 14' wide by 140' long by let's say 10' high = 700 cubic yards of material to be removed.  To where?  By 140 trips with 5 cubic yard dump trucks?



Where to put it is part of the problem. Some people are allowing dumping in their yards, but to me gray/blue clay has too much arsenic in it. The previous dump zones were deemed an eco-disaster that we had to spend $30K plus on mitigating so far.
   The slide area "toe" is about 200 feet wide at the road, 1,000+ at the rear with the whole bowl slipping. The mountain above being held back by the toe "chocking" the base. Railway and Hwy 2 could be taken out in the event of a catastrophic failure.



> What is the proximate cause of these landslides?



Sort of undetermined. SNOPud had a geo engineer come out and "prove" it had nothing to do with their drilling/blasting. Major contributing factors were excess rain in a short time period and a clear cut above the slide that has been illegally expanded. (and still is by tweakers at night) Lack of drainage and a "pocket" of clay that is being pushed out by the pressure from above.



> How much for plpes to deliver propane, city water and sewage to the 250?



$million$. Last estimate $100 mil+



> How much for a helipad?



Already an unofficial one but DNR doesn't like flying in the area where animals are procreating.



> Will the bridge, if built, be washed away by subsequent flooding?  There are 5, 10, 20 and 100 year floods but the time intervals are getting shorter due to climate change.



Unlikely. Railway bridge 100 feet upstream would go first. Bridge is made to use the current landings from the old bridge and extend 40 feet or so extra to take the pressure off the river embankments. Nothing will touch the river and the old pilings will just be there for looks.



> if it's 'the bridge or nothing', see
> 
> "
> I quote D. V. Lindley's Making Decisions, "Lord Kennet was forced to admit that the planning procedure is unsatisfactory and it is to be changed in the future so that inquiries into major projects can consider the options instead of merely a 'Yes' or 'No' to a particular scheme."
> ...



The slide is pretty much from the left (worst hit area) to the right where cracks have started and the homes are falling down the hill (unsafe zone) with the road below it. More than enough to fill 2 Seattle stadiums.


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## Wuzzat? (Jun 10, 2014)

I'm stumped. 

What all are the 250 doing about this?

There may be a
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tipping_Point
in this social situation.


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## carnuck (Jun 12, 2014)

Sleeping with the devil. (or so the greenies think) Where it says Sunset falls (middle left side) is where the slide is. We got together with Snopud and they are buying access (since they plan to put this dam in, come hell or high water and need access and we had a bridge in place there before) for up to 1/2 the cost of the bridge (I think there is a $250K cap on it) including any legal fights with the greenies trying to block the bridge. We had a special assessment for $100K so far and we will need to pay about the same ($350 in my case) each year for the next 4 years.
   The problem is many object to spending "their" money in such a way. (or any money for that matter because they feel the world owes them a living) The bridge is going over Canyon falls (middle right) which is a safe distance from the slide. We plan to get around the non-payers (mostly tweakers and the ones currently ransacking people's places up there) by installing a gate with remote control operated key code that you can only get if you are paid up or making payments on what you owe. The road coming in is one private land so it isn't subject to the same regulations as one of our roads.


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## nealtw (Jun 12, 2014)

We often here of disasters and the news move on. The time following desaster can be far worse. Before you are finished you will have a good understanding of politics, building codes, geo-engineering, strata finance and security., I would bet non of which is why you moved to that area.
This slide was taped.
http://dailypicksandflicks.com/2012/07/13/huge-mudslide-caught-on-camera-in-british-columbia-video/


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## carnuck (Jun 17, 2014)

I posted that one up as an explanation to people of what could happen if our slide got momentum.


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## Wuzzat? (Jun 18, 2014)

Wiki has some good info on this.

"The area most generally recognized as being at risk of a dangerous mudslide are:
Areas where wildfires or human modification of the land have destroyed vegetation
Areas where landslides have occurred before
Steep slopes and areas at the bottom of slopes or canyons
Slopes that have been altered for construction of buildings and roads
Channels along a stream or river
Areas where surface runoff is directed"

Some of these can be blamed on human activity, and reasonably foreseeable.

Mud comes in at 2700 lbs per cubic yard and if it's moving it's like a battering ram.

I'm thinking now I should be looking at topographic maps for my location.


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## Wuzzat? (Jul 16, 2014)

Here's another mudslide
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...a8dca8-00c0-11e4-8fd0-3a663dfa68ac_story.html
this one caused by 'Marlboro Clay'.


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