# Small leak in compression fitting



## SteveDel

Hey everyone. My plumbing under my kitchen sink was super corroded and figured I'd sleep better at night knowing it was fixed so I set out to do my first plumbing job since I bought my house.
I just finished replacing everything under the sink and it looks great. My only concern is one of the compression fittings that connects the copper piping coming from the faucet to the flexible faucet hose is leaking. It's not a big leak (I have to wait a minute or so for a drop to appear). I've tightened up the fitting quite a bit to get it to this point and am worried that I might bust something if I try to tighten it up any more.
Is it worth trying to get another 1/4 turn on it or will a leak like this stop leaking after a bit??
Thanks for your help!


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## kok328

With compression fittings, there is such a thing as "too tight".  When this occurs, replacement is the only option.  You'll have to cut back the portion of pipe where the compression ring (ferrel) bit into the pipe.  Of course this may leave the pipe too short and replacement of the entire length is now in order.  However, it won't hurt anything to give a bit more tight to see if this will stop the leak, just make sure you don't break the connection while attempting this.


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## SteveDel

Sounds like a plan. I made sure to leave a little extra length of pipe just in case I messed things up so I'll tighten it up and see how things go.


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## Nestor_Kelebay

SteveDel said:


> so I'll tighten it up and see how things go.



Steve:

Trust me when I say this as I have absolutely no reason to lie:
  Before you do any more plumbing, learn to solder.

Buy yourself a length of 1/2 inch copper pipe, some cheap fittings, a GOOD quality torch that mixes the fuel with air in a short tube before igniting the mixture, and some lead free solder.  Follow the basic directions in any DIY Plumbing book, and by the time you end up going through those $100 of materials, you'll be proficient at soldering.

I say that because a soldered joint is the only plumbing connection I would trust inside a wall where I can't see that connection to know if it's the source of a leak.  That's cuz it's an extremely rare thing to have a soldered joint leak if it didn't leak the first time it saw any water pressure.

You're already starting to do your own plumbing, and the more compression fittings you install, the more you'll regret not having learned to solder first.  That's because you'll be wanting to go back and redo all that plumbing with soldered joints.

Most newbies are kinda scared of soldering, so it's an important milepost to achieve, and it's better to do that before you have all kinds of compression fittings in your house that you'll subsequently wish were all soldered joints.


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## SteveDel

Nestor that sounds like great advice. I've read enough to know that you never put a compression joint inside a wall. I planned on getting a length of copper pipe and soldering away till I was confident enough to do it for real but there were a few issues. The pipe coming out of the wall is very short. I had to take off the old fittings with a torch since there wasn't enough room to cut the pipe. I figured that soldering this joint would be pretty difficult for a noob. Another thing that kinda frustrated me was the lack of selection for copper fittings at Lowes. I probably need to find a local plumbing supply store.

I will take your advice and buy myself a length of pipe and some fittings and get comfortable with soldering. Hopefully I'll be able to replacing my work under the sink in the near future with a more permanent solution.

Thanks again!


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## Nestor_Kelebay

SteveDel said:


> Hopefully I'll be able to replacing my work under the sink in the near future with a more permanent solution.



Gawd I hate to tell you this, but that's the kick in the A$$ with compression fittings.  When you tighten a compression fitting onto a copper pipe, you actually crimp a brass sleeve (called a "ferrule") onto that pipe with a compression nut behind that brass sleeve.  So, I kinda doubt you're gonna be able to get that brass ferrule off without cutting it off.  Like, I mean, cutting the pipe behind the ferrule to remove that ferrule so you can solder a coupling onto that pipe and extend it a bit further.  Do you even have room to do that?

Does anyone in here know if it's possible to cut a brass compression fitting ferrule along it's length and then pry it off the copper pipe?  What tool would a person use to cut the ferrule without mucking up the pipe?

I have heard people say that you can remove a brass ferrule from a copper pipe, but how it's done, I have no clue.  The force with which you've crimped that brass ferrule onto that short piece of pipe may make removing it a pipe dream.

If push comes to shove to fix that leak, undo that compression fitting, wrap some soft teflon tape around that ferrule as best you can to make a water tight seal between the ferrule and the fitting and put the compression fitting back on, but don't tighten the bygeezus out of it.  Just a bit more than snug should be OK.

Watch this Plumbing forum for a post on basic instructions on how to solder.  I will also explain why each step is done.  If you know what you're doing and why, you'll have much more confidence doing it.

Does anyone else have any idea of what to do here if Steve can't stop that leak without busting something?


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## inspectorD

You really need to cut the pipe at the fitting. I have never been able to get one to work properly after it leaks, and I have replaced many kitchens.
Your other option is to buy a longer flexible line and another fitting if you are short on distance. Just make sure you have access to where the fitting connects.
I had this issue with my own dishwasher. I just gave up on the copper line with compression fittings and switched to a braided stainless steel flex line...no worries.

Absolutely learn how to sweat pipe...todays tools have made it easier, just be careful where you point the flame.


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## majakdragon

Most compression fittings leak due to the pipe not being pushed all the way into the fitting. This prevents the ferrule from properly seating. Old Plumbers trick for some compression fitting leaks is to run a piece of heavy string through a candle a few times. Then cut off enough to wrap around the pipe once or twice, above the ferrule, than reconnect the nut and tighten.


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## travelover

inspectorD said:


> ...<snip>.....I had this issue with my own dishwasher. I just gave up on the copper line with compression fittings and switched to a braided stainless steel flex line...no worries.......<snip>....



Me, too and I've never figured out exactly where I was going wrong with the compression fittings.


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## SteveDel

Well I cut off the compression fitting and put in another one, tightened it up, and it's working fine. I did have a couple of questions for the future though.

First, about the short pipe coming out of the back of my kitchen cabinet. I'm guessing if I cut out the back of the cabinet and the drywall I would find a supply pipe coming up from the floor to a 90 degree fitting to the short pipe. I could use the torch to get the short pipe off of the 90 and solder in a new longer pipe, correct?

Second, my original problem was with connecting the braided flexible pipe coming from the shutoff valve to the 3/8" copper pipe going to the faucet. I had to use a 3/8" compression to 1/2" threaded connector. If I was going to go the soldering route in the future, how would things change? I guess I'm wondering what my other options would be going from the shutoff to the 3/8" pipe at the faucet?

Thank you all once again for the help.


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## Nestor_Kelebay

SteveDel said:


> First, about the short pipe coming out of the back of my kitchen cabinet. I'm guessing if I cut out the back of the cabinet and the drywall I would find a supply pipe coming up from the floor to a 90 degree fitting to the short pipe. I could use the torch to get the short pipe off of the 90 and solder in a new longer pipe, correct?



Well, if you did cut out a big section of the back of the cabinet and the drywall behind it, yes you could do that, but a smarter plan would be to just cut a small hole in the cabinet back where the pipe comes out, and solder a coupling and a longer pipe onto that short pipe.  Then, cover the hole in the back of the cabinet where the piping comes out with a "split escutcheon":







That would look a bit more civilized.

You should also inquire about "Sharkbite" fittings, which you simply push over the end of a 1/2 inch copper pipe to make a connection.  I've never used them, so I can't comment on them.  But, you should certainly investigate whether they would work for you.  Also, one of the biggest manufacturers of copper fittings in the US is a company called Nibco.  They have new ways of connecting 1/2 inch copper piping, and you might want to snoop around their web site to find out what they have that might work for you.



> Second, my original problem was with connecting the braided flexible pipe coming from the shutoff valve to the 3/8" copper pipe going to the faucet. I had to use a 3/8" compression to 1/2" threaded connector. If I was going to go the soldering route in the future, how would things change? I guess I'm wondering what my other options would be going from the shutoff to the 3/8" pipe at the faucet?



What I would do if I were you is...

Once you learn how to solder, and your compression valve starts leaking or looking like it needs replacing, then cut it off and try soldering a coupling and piece of pipe onto what you have coming out of your cabinet.  That way you can just extend your existing short pipe.  If it's just plain too short to solder a coupling onto, then use a hole saw to cut a 1 1/2 or 2 inch hole  in the back of the cabinet to give you more room.  If that still isn't enough, you can cut a bigger hole once you've got a plan in place to cover it, and that won't be very hard.

(I'm thinking you might buy a 6 inch hole saw for cutting holes in ceilings for recessed lighting, and then use a clean out cover for a 6 inch diameter gavanized chimney duct to cover that sucker.)

Once you get a copper pipe coming out of the wall, I'd solder an elbow onto it, then a 1/2 inch ball valve, and then you're never going to have a problem getting from a 1/2 inch copper supply pipe into your faucet.  If you couldn't do that, then your faucet manufacturer would be in big trouble and more concerned about that situation than you.

I'm not that familiar with the names of the different adapter fittings, nor do I know what kind of connections are on your faucet, but be assured that you're always going to be able to get from a 1/2 inch copper pipe to any faucet in the world.

When you go shopping for a ball valve, make sure it has a packing nut on it so that you can tighten the packing on it.  Some manufacturers are making ball valves without packing nuts.  Their position on the matter is:  "Our valves never leak past the packing, so you'll never need to tighten a packing nut cuz it's never gonna leak, so we don't need packing nuts."  To me, that circular logic completely ignores the inevitable possibility that despite the manufacturer's assurances, the ball valve still might leak past the packing.  I wouldn't buy any ball valve that didn't have a packing nut to allow me to tighten the packing just in case.


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## SteveDel

Thanks Nestor, I like the idea of the coupling way better and will most likely go that route once I feel comfortable enough. Thanks for putting up the post about soldering as well, I really appreciate the insight.


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## kok328

I just wanted to add a few comments:
Sharkbites are the greatest thing since sliced bread.  They are expensive but, makes basic plumbing a no-brainer for any noob.  However, I would use them extensively in lieu of a soldered joint.

Also, if your going to solder, use MAPP gas and save yourself a headache.  MAPP gas comes in a yellow cylinder rather than propane gas which comes in a blue cylinder.


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## Nestor_Kelebay

Kok328:

Shouldn't the sentence that reads "However, I would use them extensively in lieu of a soldered joint." read as either:

However, I would not use them extensively in lieu of a soldered joint.

or 

And I would use them extensively in lieu of a soldered joint.

You've got a "however" in there that warns us that what's going to be said next runs contrary to what's already been said.  But, that doesn't happen and so it's a bit confusing.

About using MAAP gas:  I know most plumbers do, but I can't help thinking that for people new to soldering it might be more cautious to advise they just stick with propane until they become proficient at soldering.  I use propane only because I've never had a good reason to switch to MAAP gas.  As long as you mix the fuel and air before igniting the mixture, propane burns plenty hot enough to do the job.  I haven't had a solder joint leak on me since I was using a pencil tip torch, and that's gotta be about 15 years ago or more.  So, I can't really understand why you say "use MAAP gas and save yourself a headache."  I have no troubles whatsoever soldering 1/2 and 3/4 inch brass and copper with propane and lead-free solder.


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## inspectorD

This is a nice "study" on how to solder and what really works. 
I use Mapp gas, the reasoning is, it heats the pipe a heck of lot faster than propane. Having a flame for a shorter span of time is always a better way to start. When I started soldering I was using a propane torch and almost gave up. The reasoning was a little bit of water left in the line took forever to steam out, and the joint would not hold.
And I know all the water needs to be out, but in a perfect world that is not always what we are up against.

Nestor, you did a fine job of helping folks get a start on soldering, they can only get better at learning from here on.:rofl:


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## kok328

Thanks Nestor, you are correct, I used improper grammar.  What I meant to say is that I would not use sharkbites in lieu of a soldered joint when doing large jobs consisting of numerous connections.

re: MAPP gas; like inspectorD indicates, use MAPP gas and you won't get frustrated with learning/using soldering techniques due to the short-comings of propane versus MAPP.

In the meantime, it appears that I need to sign up for a grammar 101 class at my local elementary school.

Thanks for correcting my post, I guess I shouldn't wander out of the electrical and HVAC forums.


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## DIY

you don't have to cut off the fitting. We bought a "Handle and Sleeve Puller Kit" at Home Depot made by Brass Craft. You just attach the clamp behind the nut (compression ring inside) and turn the screw which pulls the compression ring & nut off the copper pipe. Way easier then cutting the compression fitting & risking cutting the Cu pipe. You may have to trim up some pipe so that the new compression fitting compresses on a fresh spot on the pipe. 
If you put a new compression fitting on a on spot it will leak. 

also check out a product by ProBite that does not require the compression fitting. I found it on line, but can't find it in the stores.


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## Roy

To remove a leaking ferrule from copper pipe,  just use a Dremel tool with a small abrasive disc attachment on it, and then sort of grind away a small slot into that brass ferrule.  Don&#8217;t cut all the way through the ferrule or you&#8217;ll nick the copper pipe,  just grind a slow about 80% to 90% of the way through and then stick a straight-edge screwdriver into that slot and twist it to break the ferrule open.  ( I read this on Wikapedia. )

I hate compression fittings because you&#8217;re not supposed to tighten them &#8220;TOO&#8221; tight, only tighten the nut finger tight and then use a wrench to twist another 1/2 turn more. 
I just did some tests on a compression type of fitting and some small bits of scrap 1/2" copper pipe and this is what I've found out:  You cannot just begin turning from the "finger tight" position because some brass ferrules are larger than others, so you need to first begin tightening the compression fitting down, and then after anywhere from about 1/4 to 'one-full' turn of the nut (With an adjustable wrench) you will begin to notice that the twisting is not so easy anymore, and this is where the brass ferrule is actually clamping down on the pipe.  It is from this point that you need to turn 1/2 extra turn MORE.  

Once this was all done I looked inside the test pipe and I could see the spot where the brass ferrule has actually reduced the diameter of the copper pipe, so you don't need to worry about this pipe "POPPING OUT" of the compression fitting, it is firmly in there for sure !
( By the way, always have extra brass ferrules on hand, they cannot be re-used once they've been squeezed down like this.) 

As for the sealing of any possible gaps between the pipe and the ferrule itself; that's where the guesswork comes in.  If your pipe is new with no deep scratches then you don't need anything added, just the pressure of the squeezed ferrule should do the trick.  But if you've used sandpaper to remove old paint or corrosion or something like that, then there's a ton of deep scratches and no matter how much you tighten that little nut the water's going to leak out through these deep scores, and this is where you probably need some type of liquid to seal the gaps between the pipe surface and the ferrule, either liquid thread sealer (Permatex) or liquid waterproof epoxy will do the trick (I prefer the epoxy for a gap-filler).  Apply a thin layer to the pipe where the ferrule will be, and then slid the ferrule into place over this layer of liquid sealant, and then slide the nut into place, and then tighten it as described above.  

Just make sure you don't use a type of liquid that hardens too fast because if it does then it will crack once you tighten the ferrule, and then the water will leak out anyways. You want to tighten the ferrule and only THEN do you want that liquid to harden (after an hour or so), sealing the gaps in all those hair-like grooves. 

I have seen those &#8220;Sharkbite&#8221; fittings, I think they are so cool !  From everything that I have heard about them they are just about PERFECT in every way!  So my advice is if the fitting is in an area that is visible, and the pipe surface is nice and clean, then go with those "SharkBite" fittings.   Just make sure you buy that small tool to remove any burrs around the edges of the pipe, as any burrs will make a cut / score in the O-ring inside the SharkBite fitting and this is where you leak will occur.  If you remove the burrs on the cut pipe then you will never encounter any leaks with the Sharkbite fittings. 

However, if you sanded the pipe to get rid of any oxidization or layers of paint then the water will come out through those hairlike scratches that the sandpaper left, the O-rings only work on perfectly NEW pipe surfaces, not old pipe that has deep surface scratches / defects in them.  That's the main problem with those "Sharkbite" fittings as I see it.

My favorite type of easily-removable / adjustable non-solder fitting are flare fittings.   I use 5/8" flare fittings on 1/2" rigid copper pipes, they NEVER ever leak!   But you need to have expensive flaring tools, and trying to find 5/8" flare fittings at Home Depot is not always easy.  And those fittings are not pretty either, they just basic brass, they are not chromed and pretty looking the way customers want things these days.


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## kok328

For small plumbing repairs or new connections, look into a product called "Shark Bites", they are simple to use as an alternative to soldering.
They are readily availabe at the big box stores.


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## Puddlesx5

If you can't solder you can buy expensive Shark Bite fittings. no solder works on pex, cpvc, or copper


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## kok328

pex has their own fittings, cpvx is a no brainer and solder WILL work on copper.


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## Roy

I've done some more tests on brass ferrules clamping down on copper pipes, and from my tests I now can see that sometimes just 1/2 a turn is not enough, in fact its not enough to prevent the pipe from popping out of the compression fitting later on, so now I would recommend to anyone to give it a full 1-turn to make sure that the copper pipe is actually "squeezed" and that ferrule will not be slipping later on.  
Of course, this might result in "over-tightening" and associated leaks, but I think it better to have a bit of a leak than risk having a "GUSHER" later on.


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## Nestor_Kelebay

I think compression fittings should be taken off the market and soldering of copper pipe taught in high school.

Then, everyone would maked soldered connections and there wouldn't be any more problems with compression fittings leaking.

The problem is that new home owners will avoid learning to solder and will opt for compression fittings instead.  Then, once they do learn to solder, they have dozens of compression fittings in their house to deal with.  Better they learn to solder right from the start.  The earlier they learn to solder, the better, and the fewer compression fittings they have to deal with.


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## Perry525

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> I think compression fittings should be taken off the market and soldering of copper pipe taught in high school.
> 
> Then, everyone would maked soldered connections and there wouldn't be any more problems with compression fittings leaking.
> 
> The problem is that new home owners will avoid learning to solder and will opt for compression fittings instead.  Then, once they do learn to solder, they have dozens of compression fittings in their house to deal with.  Better they learn to solder right from the start.  The earlier they learn to solder, the better, and the fewer compression fittings they have to deal with.



I have used both solder and compression fittings for years.
Solder, in the main is preferable, but there comes the time, that last joint, where solder will not work.
Think a pipe with water in it, water that boils and the steam blows through the solder joint, or a sealed system, where you cannot vent the expanded air and it blows the joint.
In these instances, a compression joint is called for.
Wind thin insulation tape round the olive, before making the connection, it works a treat. At a push, wind the wifes cotton round the pipe between the olive and the body, this will make a seal.


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## Nestor_Kelebay

Lemme just say this:

I've been soldering for over 20 years and I try to avoid compression fittings simply because I don't have confidence in them.  And, in my 21 unit apartment block there isn't a single compression fitting (unless you count the 3/8 supply tubes to my bathroom sinks and toilets that come off the  Brasscraft compression stops I've soldered in).  In that building I've soldering both domestic water supply lines for potable water as well as the copper and brass connections in a hot water heating system, so it covers the whole gambit.

So I've been able to avoid using compression fittings in favour of soldered connections, and if I can do that in a building containing 21 bathrooms and 21 kitchens and 21 heating system zone valves, a person shouldn't have to use a compression fitting in a typical 3 bedroom house.

I think newbie homeowners should make the effort and learn how to solder and then they'll have 100% confidence in their connections.  I don't have 100% confidence in any compression fitting, or at least I wouldn't feel comfortable relying on them, and I would never use a compression fitting inside a wall where you don't have quick and easy access to it.

Just my opinion.



> Think a pipe with water in it, water that boils and the steam blows through the solder joint, or a sealed system, where you cannot vent the expanded air and it blows the joint.



Water in pipes is a fact of life, and there's not much that can be done about that.  But I can't think of a single example where that "last joint" can't be vented.  Normally on water supply piping that last joint is a valve of some sort to control the water flow, and that valve should be open when soldering anyhow.  Also, if the soldering is on a closed system like a hot water heating system, good design would require air vents in the system anyhow.

Sorry, but I can't think of any situation where you couldn't vent the piping, but I'd imagine there might be some situations like that, rare as giraffes in Manhattan they may be.


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## psoftpm

Great dialogue on this topic, I have learned alot. Thanks everyone.  
I needed to remove the old ring and purchased a Compression Fitting removal tool from Lowes. It was made by Superior but there are a number of types on the market.  Worked GREAT..., However, since the tool slides the old ring off the end of the copper pipe, it actually compressed the pipe from the spot where the old ring was located all the way to the end (1/2) inch.  What that left me with was a smaller diameter pipe on which to place my new ring and there was a larger gap between the ring and the pipe than if placed on a new section of the copper pipe.  I now have a very slow drop leak on one of the two pipes under my sink.  I think I am going to try the teflon tape next and then maybe the SharkBite fitting.  I am working with a short pipe protruding from the wall and don't want to cut it off YET.....Soldering is an option, but I have only done it a few times and I am concerned that I may apply too much heat and weaken any soldered joints that may be immediately behind the plaster wall.


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## nealtw

if your compression fitting is outside the wall and not leaking your good to go. If you do change it you will find that joint in the wall and you will still set it up for the braided line


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## psoftpm

Well, I removed the valve, wrapped the compression ring in teflon being sure to thoroughly cover the side that fits back into the valve.  I reassembled everything and the leak is GONE.....  Problem solved, for now....


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## garydale

I agree with the various comments that soldered connections are better, cheaper and easier. I loath compression fittings. After reading some of the posts here, I hate them even more.

However, I have an instance where I can't think of an alternative. I'm replacing the shower assembly in my main bathroom. The new tap set comes with female threads to the spout and showerhead.

I assembled a spout pipe using two short pipes joined by an elbow and attached male threaded adapters at each end. I screwed one end into the tap set then attached the entire assembly to the supply pipes.

The pipe to the shower head creates a problem however. It can't turn so I need something that can be joined after being threaded into the tap assembly.

I'm leery about using a torch and solder both because of the amount of heat required for an adapter that is already screwed into the bronze fixture and the impact that heat may have on the various non-metal parts in the assembly. 

To me, it seemed like a reasonable place for a compression fitting.

The various other posts here suggest that I will need to be very careful to make sure the assembly and the pipe to the shower header can't move if I am to avoid a leak inside the wall after I close it up.

Normally this would be handled by anchoring the assembly to a brace running between the wall studs. Unfortunately, the assembly actually fits into a notch in one of the wall studs, so I'm down to a plan B to secure it as best I can against the drywall.  

Anyway, I found the discussion here very useful. Thanks!


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## Redwood

garydale said:


> To me, it seemed like a reasonable place for a compression fitting.



Actually using compression fittings inside the walls is prohibited by every plumbing code that I know of so it is not a good solution.

*Option 1* is to sweat the connection using a repair coupling which does not have a stop in the center of the coupling allowing it to slide completely on to one pipe allowing connections to be made on butted joints.

*Option 2* is to use a SharkBite slip coupling which is a push in connector requiring no pipe sweating skills. http://411plumb.com/sharkbite-push-on-tubing-connectors 

It's cheaper to learn how to do it right. If you intend to make many plumbing repairs in your home you should learn how to sweat pipe.


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