# How to get these three outlets working?



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 24, 2017)

This is in a mobile home. All breakers work. All wall switches are on. So it must be something specific to the outlet.

Where to start?


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## joecaption (Sep 24, 2017)

There all cheap backstabbed outlets, replace them.
Wrap the wires around the screws in clockwise direction.
That last one is a GFI, tried resetting it?


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 24, 2017)

joecaption said:


> There all cheap backstabbed outlets, replace them.
> Wrap the wires around the screws in clockwise direction.
> That last one is a GFI, tried resetting it?



On the last one, the buttons seem to be stuck. It doesn't even push.

Do I have to replace them with regular household outlets and then put in a work box? Or are you suggesting replacing them with the same type of outlet? Because I don't think there is anything to wrap a screw around if I replace them with the same type of outlet.

And can you really be 100% sure that it's the outlets and not something with the wiring further upstream? Is there an easy way to test this? I have a multimeter.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 25, 2017)

Is there a way to verify that it is the outlet and not wiring? I have a multimeter.


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Is there a way to verify that it is the outlet and not wiring? I have a multimeter.



The first thing you check is gfci as the other two like come from there. 
You should find power on the line side as that comes from the breaker.
The load side will be feeding the other two.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 25, 2017)

nealtw said:


> The first thing you check is gfci as the other two like come from there.
> You should find power on the line side as that comes from the breaker.
> The load side will be feeding the other two.



Only one outlet in the house has a GFCI and it is one of the outlets in question. All 3 outlets are not on the same breaker. I took the wires out of one of the outlets and tested the bare wires with a circuit tester. There was no voltage. Does this mean that it is the wiring and not the outlet? Should I repeat this test (multimeter on bare wires) for all 3?


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

You last picture is a gfci........
Why do you think they are on different circuits.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 25, 2017)

nealtw said:


> You last picture is a gfci........
> Why do you think they are on different circuits.



Okay actually #2 and #3 are on the same breaker. But on that same breaker, everything else works besides these two outlets. This includes 6 light sockets, a fan, and several other outlets. The GFCI buttons seem to be stuck. The two non-working outlets on this breaker (pictures 2 and 3) are in separate rooms. The GFCI in the bathroom and the other one in the bedroom.

Picture #1 is on the other end of the mobile home on a different breaker. I know this because I tested at the panel.

This is my plan... Will you tell me if it will work? I want to remove all the non-working outlets by removing them and testing the bare wires with my multimeter. Does that make sense?


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

Maybe but humor me first, check for power on the load side of the gfci unless there is only one set of wires there.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 25, 2017)

If there is 120V on the line side of the GFCI in picture #3 and the buttons do not reset it, than replace it because it has failed, as they do.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 25, 2017)

nealtw said:


> Maybe but humor me first, check for power on the load side of the gfci unless there is only one set of wires there.



How do I do this? I see the black and white wire going in to where it says "load" on the GFCI outlet.

I have a multimeter. Do I have to remove the wires from the outlet? And what about the outlet that is on a different breaker?


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> How do I do this? I see the black and white wire going in to where it says "load" on the GFCI outlet.
> 
> I have a multimeter. Do I have to remove the wires from the outlet? And what about the outlet that is on a different breaker?



Remove the load wires and stick short wires in there and measure that
Or remove all wires, join black to black and white to white and then check the other outlets.
Keep track of which are load and line
Again. how do you know some are on another breaker


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 25, 2017)

nealtw said:


> Remove the load wires and stick short wires in there and measure that
> Or remove all wires, join black to black and white to white and then check the other outlets.
> Keep track of which are load and line
> Again. how do you know some are on another breaker



Because when I turn this breaker off, the light right next to the other outlet works. It's on the other side of the house.

I don't have a screwdriver small enough to remove the back of this outlet so it will have to wait until tomorrow.

What is a short wire?


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Because whenten I turn this breaker off, the light right next to the other outlet works. It's on the other side of the house.
> 
> I don't have a screwdriver small enough to remove the back of this outlet so it will have to wait until tomorrow.
> 
> What is a short wire?



Lights are often on a different circuit so the lights don't go out when you pop a breaker.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 25, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Because when I turn this breaker off, the light right next to the other outlet works. It's on the other side of the house.
> 
> I don't have a screwdriver small enough to remove the back of this outlet so it will have to wait until tomorrow.
> 
> What is a short wire?



No screwdriver necessary;

There are wirenuts visible in the GFCI box, shut that breaker off, remove the wirenuts keeping the wires separate, turn the breaker back on and test the wires for 120V.


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> No screwdriver necessary;
> 
> There are wirenuts visible in the GFCI box, shut that breaker off, remove the wirenuts keeping the wires separate, turn the breaker back on and test the wires for 120V.



No pigtails in a gfci box both wires are plugged into the outlet


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## Snoonyb (Sep 25, 2017)

nealtw said:


> No pigtails in a gfci box both wires are plugged into the outlet



Look at the photo, those are wirenuts.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 25, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> No screwdriver necessary;
> 
> There are wirenuts visible in the GFCI box, shut that breaker off, remove the wirenuts keeping the wires separate, turn the breaker back on and test the wires for 120V.



So I put one terminal of the multimeter to the black wire, and the other to the white? And if it reads 0, then it is the wiring that's messed up, not the outlet? That's what I did with the wires in the other end of the house, and it read 0. Does this mean it is not the outlet? How do I even begin fixing this if it is the wiring in the wall?

Basically, if it's the outlet, I can just replace the outlet, but if it's the wiring in the wall, I don't even know where to begin trying to fix that.


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> So I put one terminal of the multimeter to the black wire, and the other to the white? And if it reads 0, then it is the wiring that's messed up, not the outlet? That's what I did with the wires in the other end of the house, and it read 0. Does this mean it is not the outlet? How do I even begin fixing this if it is the wiring in the wall?



If that is a gfci there are two sets of wires if the outlet is bad one set of wires should still be live.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 25, 2017)

If it reads "0" volts then you are correct, it is in the wiring, and now the fun begins, you star by determining what that breaker controls and then opening light fixture boxes and conducting continuity as well as voltage checks.


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> If it reads "0" volts then you are correct, it is in the wiring, and now the fun begins, you star by determining what that breaker controls and then opening light fixture boxes and conducting continuity as well as voltage checks.



He didn't say he checked both sides if there is short in this or downstream outlets it will not reset.
He did say this one will not reset.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 25, 2017)

nealtw said:


> He didn't say he checked both sides if there is short in this or downstream outlets it will not reset.
> He did say this one will not reset.



They will do that when there is no power provided.


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> They will do that when there is no power provided.



He is testing for power. I hope he has the breaker set to on.:trophy:


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 25, 2017)

nealtw said:


> He didn't say he checked both sides if there is short in this or downstream outlets it will not reset.
> He did say this one will not reset.



So what do I do to get these wires working? Here's a diagram of the house.

O = working outlet
S = working switch
X = non-working outlet

How do I determine what is the order of loads in the circuit and what does that tell me? I need to do continuity tests?

Edit: I just looked up what a continuity test is, and it is exactly what I've been doing by testing bare wire with a multimeter.


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

Did you check both sides of the gfci? Power comes in one side and if it is tripped nothing will come out the other side..


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 25, 2017)

nealtw said:


> Did you check both sides of the gfci? Power comes in one side and if it is tripped nothing will come out the other side..



So I disconnect the GFCI outlet, then I perform continuity test on the line wires? Then on the load wires?


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> So I disconnect the GFCI outlet, then I perform continuity test on the line wires? Then on the load wires?



Make sure the wires are separated and turn the breaker on and check for power Black to ground should be about 120,  black to white should be around 120. check both sets of wires.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 25, 2017)

nealtw said:


> Make sure the wires are separated and turn the breaker on and check for power Black to ground should be about 120,  black to white should be around 120. check both sets of wires.



Okay that is where I will start with the GFCI outlet tomorrow.

What should be my next step for the wire that I determined wasn't working? (The one I think is on a different breaker than the other two). Do I have to find the order of loads in that circuit? Where to start? There is a working switch just to the right of it. Start there? And do what?


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## Snoonyb (Sep 25, 2017)

"Edit: I just looked up what a continuity test is, and it is exactly what I've been doing by testing bare wire with a multimeter."

That is not what the photo of your meter indicates, it indicates that you are on the 200V scale, and that is where you should be.

You need to set the meter up just like in the photo, with the wirenuts off, the breaker own, test between the black conductor and the white conductor. Then between the black and the bare copper conductor, which is ground.

This will tell you if you have power available too the GFCI or, if you have open conductors someplace.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 25, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> "Edit: I just looked up what a continuity test is, and it is exactly what I've been doing by testing bare wire with a multimeter."
> 
> That is not what the photo of your meter indicates, it indicates that you are on the 200V scale, and that is where you should be.
> 
> ...



What do I do if I know there is no electricity flowing through the circuit? Like in this?


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Okay that is where I will start with the GFCI outlet tomorrow.
> 
> What should be my next step for the wire that I determined wasn't working? (The one I think is on a different breaker than the other two). Do I have to find the order of loads in that circuit? Where to start? There is a working switch just to the right of it. Start there? And do what?



You will have to find where the power is coming from, there might be a loose connection in an outlet  that is working.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 26, 2017)

This is typical of the last recep. in the circuit, in other words the circuit ends there.

What you are interested in is finding out why there in no power there.

It may very well be in the circuit with the GFCI, or it may not.

As a process of elimination I would first make sure there is no electricity present on any of the conductors by You need to set the meter up just like in the photo, with the wirenuts off, the breaker on, test between the black conductor and the white conductor. Then between the black and the bare copper conductor, which is ground.

You can follow the same procedure of the other recepticle, not the GFCI.

If the results are the same, in that you find no voltage reading, shut the breaker off and join the black and white conductors from the 1st recepticle and with you meter set on the OHMS scale, (the one by the horseshoe symbol), it's known as OMEGA, test between the black and white conductor on the second recepticle, not the GFCI.

If the meter reads 0, it means that those two receptacles are connected.

Remove the wirenut from the conductors on the 1st recepticle.

Proceed to the GFCI.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 26, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> This is typical of the last recep. in the circuit, in other words the circuit ends there.
> 
> What you are interested in is finding out why there in no power there.
> 
> ...



What are you calling the first receptacle?

Is it thee picture that I'm attaching? There are no wire nuts on any picture I've sent besides the GFCI outlet.

For reference, there are 3 non-working outlets. The picture attached is the one in a bathroom at the bottom left side of my sketch. I tested black to white and black to ground on 200V setting on multimeter and got 0. The GFCI is in the bathroom on the right side near the top. The other non-working outlet is in a bedroom on the extreme right wall.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 26, 2017)

My reference point is the 3 receptacles in your 1st post, and the 1st recepticle is in the 1st photo, the 2nd in the 2nd photo and the 3rd is the GFCI.

Thanks, That means the power loss is somewhere before that, so go too the 2nd recepticle.

I'm off, so we'll proceed again later.


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## afjes_2016 (Sep 26, 2017)

Post #4:


farmerjohn1324 said:


> Is there a way to verify that it is the outlet and not wiring? I have a multi-meter.



The important thing to keep in mind when attempting to test one of these type receptacles is again the fact that you can run tests of the receptacle in question, but unlike a regular home receptacle one of the major (failure) facts of this type is that the "pincers" may not be making contact with the metal of the conductor when the receptacle is sandwiched and tightened down. So you can test the receptacle all you want, if the pins (pincers) are at all damaged even at the slightest bit the pincer will fail to make contact with the metal inside the conductor (failing to fully penetrate the insulation).

You can test the GFCI by doing a continuity check. Place the meter on "ohms". Place one probe in one slot (either the hot, neutral or ground) place the other probe on the corresponding wire of the GFCI if you get continuity on all three then the GFCI is functioning correctly. But you would have to be sure the the gfci is not tripped itself first. even if it is not hooked to power. if it is tripped you will not continuity.

if you touch on probe to either the hot, neutral or ground and the other probe to the other two and you get continuity it means something ain't kosher.

Again, you could be beating yourself up attempting to track down this issue.

If it were me and I had to do it. What I would first due is eliminate the possibility of one of those darn crappy all in one receptacles as being the culprit.
I would:
Remove all of the receptacles in the path of the last known working receptacle (removing this one also). Then wire nut my hots, neutrals and grounds together respectively at each receptacle location. Go to the end of the circuit (last known non working receptacle). Take those conductors, hot, neutral and ground. Take your multi meter, check hot to neutral, hot to ground, neutral to ground.
If i get 120 v hot to neutral and hot to ground then I know it is one of those stupid receptacles. reinsert one receptacle at a time by going to your first. Remove the wire nuts. place the conductors in the all in one. go to the end of the circuit. repeat the test above. if you get proper power then reinsert the next receptacle down line from the last newly inserted receptacle. repeat this process to the end; the last receptacle. doing this will eliminate the fact that the pincers are not the ultimate culprit. But also, when inserting the new receptacle and testing the end of the circuit and then you know that newly inserted receptacle is functioning, place that newly inserted receptacle in the wall and anchor it. again test the end of the circuit. this will ensure that while working with that newly inserted receptacle that  while you were handling the receptacle and anchoring into the wall that the pincers did not somehow come dislodged and lose you continuity of the circuit or you can end up repeating this all over again. If these were  regular receptacles i would just run the initial test and using new $1.5 receptacles and save myself the headache.

And of course other than testing at the end of the circuit for voltage reading at each step be sure to turn the proper breaker off


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 26, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> My reference point is the 3 receptacles in your 1st post, and the 1st recepticle is in the 1st photo, the 2nd in the 2nd photo and the 3rd is the GFCI.
> 
> Thanks, That means the power loss is somewhere before that, so go too the 2nd recepticle.
> 
> I'm off, so we'll proceed again later.



I'm going back tomorrow to work on these. My plan is to check every outlet and switch in the house for loose connections (wire nut connections, stab-in-back connections, screw terminal connections). Is that what I should be doing?

If I verify that they are all connected correctly, where do I go from there? What could be the problem if not that?


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 26, 2017)

afjes_2016 said:


> Post #4:
> 
> 
> The important thing to keep in mind when attempting to test one of these type receptacles is again the fact that you can run tests of the receptacle in question, but unlike a regular home receptacle one of the major (failure) facts of this type is that the "pincers" may not be making contact with the metal of the conductor when the receptacle is sandwiched and tightened down. So you can test the receptacle all you want, if the pins (pincers) are at all damaged even at the slightest bit the pincer will fail to make contact with the metal inside the conductor (failing to fully penetrate the insulation).
> ...



But how do I know what order the circuit is in?


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## Snoonyb (Sep 26, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I'm going back tomorrow to work on these. My plan is to check every outlet and switch in the house for loose connections (wire nut connections, stab-in-back connections, screw terminal connections). Is that what I should be doing?
> 
> If I verify that they are all connected correctly, where do I go from there? What could be the problem if not that?



Also include the light fixtures as they can be distribution points.

We'll only know "what's next", by you telling us what isn't working, when you are finished.


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## frodo (Sep 26, 2017)

check any receptacles for being terminated by  back stabbed 
instead of wire screwed on the side.
back stabbed is notorious for connection failure


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## afjes_2016 (Sep 26, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> But how do I know what order the circuit is in?



Complete the troubleshooting I described (if you so choose) with all of the receptacles that are non functional. Be sure the power is off at the breaker prior to each of the steps of the troubleshooting. My biggest concern is that these all in ones if not sandwiched properly and evenly pressured just don't make good connections and I don't want to see you chasing your tail around because of it.


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## afjes_2016 (Sep 26, 2017)

frodo said:


> check any receptacles for being terminated by  back stabbed
> instead of wire screwed on the side.
> back stabbed is notorious for connection failure



these are mobile home receptacles that are all in ones. they do not have screws.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 27, 2017)

afjes_2016 said:


> Complete the troubleshooting I described (if you so choose) with all of the receptacles that are non functional. Be sure the power is off at the breaker prior to each of the steps of the troubleshooting. My biggest concern is that these all in ones if not sandwiched properly and evenly pressured just don't make good connections and I don't want to see you chasing your tail around because of it.



I already removed one of the all-in-ones and put a multimeter to the bare wires on 200V setting. I got no voltage. That means it's somewhere in the wiring, right? That is the test I plan to perform on the other 2 non-working outlets. That is what a continuity test is, right?


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## nealtw (Sep 27, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I already removed one of the all-in-ones and put a multimeter to the bare wires on 200V setting. I got no voltage. That means it's somewhere in the wiring, right? That is the test I plan to perform on the other 2 non-working outlets. That is what a continuity test is, right?



no. continuity is testing one wire to make sure both ends are connected as in not broken somewhere in the middle.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 27, 2017)

nealtw said:


> no. continuity is testing one wire to make sure both ends are connected as in not broken somewhere in the middle.



Okay. Well I have 3 no-working outlets. I already tested one of them and determined that it is the wiring, not the outlet. I will test the remaining 2 tomorrow.

Now that I know I have some problems with the wiring in the wall, what is my next step to locating and fixing the problem? Do I take apart every outlet, switch, light, and fan, and make sure there are no loose connections or loose wire nuts?


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## nealtw (Sep 27, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Okay. Well I have 3 no-working outlets. I already tested one of them and determined that it is the wiring, not the outlet. I will test the remaining 2 tomorrow.
> 
> Now that I know I have some problems with the wiring in the wall, what is my next step to locating and fixing the problem? Do I take apart every outlet, switch, light, and fan, and make sure there are no loose connections or loose wire nuts?



If you can not find power in those boxes then you havwe to figure out where it should be coming from. The gfci usually is the first in a string of outlets so I would check the wires in the breaker box for loose screws.

You seldom have a problem with wire, mostly you will have a bad connection and it sounds like that will be somewhere else. All connections are in a box and accessible.


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## frodo (Sep 27, 2017)

if the outlets are daisy chained  like this


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 27, 2017)

frodo said:


> if the outlets are daisy chained  like this



Okay. How do I determine this order?

I can easily see what is on which breaker.


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## frodo (Sep 27, 2017)

I am not at your house, In my house I would Remove every damn receptacle
then wire nut this 

to the wires, flip the breaker on,That is how I would find the home run {hot] wire from breaker
what you are doing is trying o find the hot, then work towards the othr end
replacing the back stabbed receptacles as you go

common sense will tell you that a box with a 3rd wire is the box that MAY be the start of the chain
OR that 3rd wire could be going to a light switch


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 28, 2017)

After doing some research, I have pretty much determined that if I replace the GFCI, it should fix 2, if not 3, of the outlets.

I am going to replace the mobile home stab-in outlets with regular outlets. What kind of plastic box do I need to make this safe?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/1-Gang-N...gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CLHLrYK7x9YCFcZQhgodlQ4OEQ

Is this right? Or do I need something like this...

http://www.homedepot.com/p/1-Gang-1...gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CP2Cx6e7x9YCFc0ahgodpokOwQ


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## afjes_2016 (Sep 28, 2017)

Single gang old work low voltage bracket -  :nono:

Single gang new work box - :down:


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 28, 2017)

afjes_2016 said:


> Single gang old work low voltage bracket -  :nono:
> 
> Single gang new work box - :down:



They're both no? Why?

Then what do I use?


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## frodo (Sep 28, 2017)

1-Gang 14 cu. in. Old Work Box

you will need wire nuts, and some wire 
I use black tape over my wire nuts even though it is not required


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## Snoonyb (Sep 28, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> After doing some research, I have pretty much determined that if I replace the GFCI, it should fix 2, if not 3, of the outlets.
> 
> I am going to replace the mobile home stab-in outlets with regular outlets. What kind of plastic box do I need to make this safe?
> 
> ...



These both tell the story of why not!

The 1st says LOW VOLTAGE and 120VAC is high voltage.

The 2nd require you to open the wall sufficiently to nail it too the framing.Besides which, from your photos, you DO NOT have the depth in your wall cavity for the box to fit.

Unfortunately, because of the shallow wall depth you are pretty much relegated to mobil home recep. and this style of bracket;

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Raco-2-Gan...-Wall-Electrical-Box-Mounting-Bracket/3182991

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Raco-2-Pac...Wall-Electrical-Box-Mounting-Brackets/3182855

There are others such as the CADDY MPLS's.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 28, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> These both tell the story of why not!
> 
> The 1st says LOW VOLTAGE and 120VAC is high voltage.
> 
> ...



Well there's nothing wrong with using those so that's what I'll do.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 28, 2017)

I'm only judging from what appears in your photos, and I could be wrong, so measure your wall depth from the finished surface of the drywall.

You can find the dimensions of the available boxes on line.


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## frodo (Sep 28, 2017)

these are less expensive, save a dollar on each,$2.52 each at home depot  if that matters to you
they fit in a shallow wall


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## frodo (Sep 28, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Well there's nothing wrong with using those so that's what I'll do.


I believe electrical code requires all connections to be in a box
for safety reasons

low voltage is not required to have connections in a box
120 is required


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 28, 2017)

frodo said:


> I believe electrical code requires all connections to be in a box
> for safety reasons
> 
> low voltage is not required to have connections in a box
> 120 is required



Okay but are these plastic things gonna do it for high voltage?


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## frodo (Sep 28, 2017)

YES, they are/were designed to use  with 120volt

 your wire connections will be in an approved outlet box


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## nealtw (Sep 28, 2017)

frodo said:


> YES, they are/were designed to use  with 120volt
> 
> your wire connections will be in an approved outlet box



He has the mobile home stuff they don't have a box so they don't come with screws.:rofl:


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## Snoonyb (Sep 28, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Okay but are these plastic things gonna do it for high voltage?



With those you can use the standard side screw receptacles and you can dispense with the mobil home switches and receptacles.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 28, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> With those you can use the standard side screw receptacles and you can dispense with the mobil home switches and receptacles.



 What does that look like?


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## frodo (Sep 28, 2017)

View attachment 14746


black to the brass screw, white to the silver screw
ground to green


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## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 28, 2017)

frodo said:


> View attachment 14746
> 
> 
> black to the brass screw, white to the silver screw
> ground to green



Yea I know that. I'm wondering how to hold it in the wall.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 28, 2017)

See the photo in post #56.


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## frodo (Sep 28, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Yea I know that. I'm wondering how to hold it in the wall.



it has little wings on the side that  hold it in place when the screw is turned
go to the store and pick one up, look at it


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## afjes_2016 (Sep 28, 2017)

Frodo's post #63
Suggestion: Solderless terminal connectors on a duplex receptacle! 
My reply: Really?!!!!

Snoonyb post #53 explains exactly my warning (post #50)! Thank you Snoonyb for explaining that to farmerjohn1324.

Snoonyb post #56 - this "shallow wall" box is good to use only about 35% of the time. Reason is that the design of this box limits its use tremendously to very "thin" wall material (about 1/8"). Once the wall material thickness reaches a bit more it is almost impossible to use this box. I learned my lesson a very long time ago. Because of the design many times it will not sit flush against the wall surface when fastened. Also because where the cable/romex must be placed (far right end) of the box most times there is not enough slack of romex in the wall to accomplish this.

farmerjohn1324: I will say this one more time. Alternatives in any way other than purchasing the mobile home all-in-one receptacle units will end up costing you far more in the end between the cost of the alternative material and your time and most important of all your "temper and frustration"!! Trying to save about $1.26 to $3.01 for each of the ones you need to replace is in my opinion - ah, please wait, I am still thinking of the words to use - can't find any words to fit; so I will say only one thing. You will find out.

Honestly farmerjohn1324 if you don't want to end up tearing the hair out of your head please purchase the proper materials. 

You came to this forum for advise from persons that not only know the electrical field as in theory but also have worked in the field and that are sharing with you their experiences.

Afjes_2016 is now signing off.

Note to moderator: Please reduce image size on post #63; it is wacking my monitor out.. Way too wide!
Thank you moderator.


----------



## frodo (Sep 28, 2017)

afjes_2016 said:


> Frodo's post #63
> Suggestion: Solderless terminal connectors on a duplex receptacle!
> My reply: Really?!!!!
> Never said to use crimp connectors, He asked what a side terminal plug in looked like and I showed him one,
> ...


....................


----------



## Snoonyb (Sep 28, 2017)

And there is nothing preventing the box being used as a "J" box and pigtailing to the device.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 29, 2017)

I tested my GFCI. I got 0 on the load and 12 volts (not 120) on the line.

What does this tell me?


----------



## frodo (Sep 29, 2017)

what did you get on the wire BEFORE the gfi?  If you got 120
and then tested the GFI and got zip, Your gfi is toast


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 29, 2017)

frodo said:


> what did you get on the wire BEFORE the gfi?  If you got 120
> and then tested the GFI and got zip, Your gfi is toast



It was the wire before the GFCI that I tested. Pic attached. Also, what do you think of this other outlet? I can't turn the power off right now because someone is working in here and needs light, but for when I can...

You can see that this mobile home outlet has 3 sheaths of wire going into it. That means 3 hots, 3 neutrals, and 3 grounds. What's that? Also, see the burn mark on the outlet? Is that a probable sign that it's the outlet and not the wiring?


----------



## Snoonyb (Sep 29, 2017)

12V from what to what?


----------



## Snoonyb (Sep 29, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> It was the wire before the GFCI that I tested. Pic attached. Also, what do you think of this other outlet? I can't turn the power off right now because someone is working in here and needs light, but for when I can...
> 
> You can see that this mobile home outlet has 3 sheaths of wire going into it. That means 3 hots, 3 neutrals, and 3 grounds. What's that? Also, see the burn mark on the outlet? Is that a probable sign that it's the outlet and not the wiring?



Not likely.

You can have a single hot pair and two travelers, which is more likely.

A traveler, goes somewhere else in the circuit.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 29, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> 12V from what to what?



Line hot --> line neutral

And....

Line hot --> ground


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 29, 2017)

New info...

I took off that burnt mobile home outlet. One set of wires (on left of pic) reads 120V, the other 2 sets read zero.

What does this tell me as far as fixing this problem?

Perhaps they don't have power because they were getting power from the left wire? So this 0 voltage is just temporary?


----------



## nealtw (Sep 29, 2017)

That is how it works the power goes from one outlet to the next that way. was that one working before you removed it,


----------



## frodo (Sep 29, 2017)

wire nut all the blacks togather,  add a pigtail wire
wire nut all the whites togather,  add a pigtail
wire nut all the grounds and add a pigtail

shove the wire nutted wires into the box
connect the black, white, green to the new plug in device

"Pigtail''  a piece of wire about 6'' long


----------



## frodo (Sep 29, 2017)

simple, 1 wire into the box, one wire to the light

 wire nut the whites , no pigtail

connect the blacks to each side of the switch

connect grounds, use pig tail


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 29, 2017)

nealtw said:


> That is how it works the power goes from one outlet to the next that way. was that one working before you removed it,



I got that outlet working. Previously, it was not. Here is my current situation....

After I got that outlet working, the voltage reading at the GFCI changed. It started reading 120V at the line rather than 12V. I was thinking that this meant it would work when I reconnected the outlet, but it doesn't. It is a brand new GFCI. How could it not be working? I put all the wires back to the right places. I am going to get some better sized wire nuts. Two of those (the load wires) were a little small to hold 3 wires, but I don't think that's the problem. Also, there seemed to be some plastic in the outlet holes of the new GFCI. I think I broke through the plastic when I plugged in my saw to test the outlet.

Also, there is still the non-working outlet on the other side of the house. I was hoping fixing that one outlet would fix the other two. Maybe when I fix the GFCI, that other one will get fixed.

As of right now, I have power going in to my GFCI, but not out, despite the fact that it's a brand new outlet.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 29, 2017)

frodo said:


> wire nut all the blacks togather,  add a pigtail wire
> wire nut all the whites togather,  add a pigtail
> wire nut all the grounds and add a pigtail
> 
> ...



Yes, that is what I did and it's working. Now, I have power going in to my GFCI, but not out.

I posted all the details and pictures on the response above.


----------



## nealtw (Sep 29, 2017)

Push test and reset on the gfci?????????


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 29, 2017)

nealtw said:


> Push test and reset on the gfci?????????



That was it!

Lol.

However, the one in the small bathroom still doesn't work. (The pic with the 3 loose wires). Wires still read zero.

Where do I start on solving that issue?


----------



## Snoonyb (Sep 29, 2017)

On the back of the GFCI it says "line" and "load", it also says"black" and "white".

It appears from the photo, the the GFCI is incorrectly wired.

A correctly wired GFCI will operate the "TEST", "RESET" functions.


----------



## nealtw (Sep 29, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> That was it!
> 
> Lol.
> 
> ...



You have to find where the power is supposed to be coming from. Good luck.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 29, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> On the back of the GFCI it says "line" and "load", it also says"black" and "white".
> 
> It appears from the photo, the the GFCI is incorrectly wired.
> 
> A correctly wired GFCI will operate the "TEST", "RESET" functions.



It's wired correctly and works fine.

Now, this is the only one that doesn't work.


----------



## nealtw (Sep 29, 2017)

The bathroom should be on a gfci and if that was not one search the house for one more and reset it.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 29, 2017)

nealtw said:


> The bathroom should be on a gfci and if that was not one search the house for one more and reset it.



There is no other GFCI in the house. I found the breaker that controls the switch right next to the non-working outlet. I know it's no guarantee that it also controls the outlet, but it couldn't be a bad first guess.

The sheathing from the non-working outlet goes up.

Here is a picture of everything else that breaker controls. There's a switch and an outlet in the bedroom, a switch and outlet in the bathroom (assuming the outlet is on this same breaker), and there's also an outlet on the other side of the wall to the outlet in the bedroom.

Whatever is powering the outlet is coming from above. Could it be the bathroom light?

Let's assume for now that I have the correct breaker. What's my next step to find the source of the problem?

If it's not this breaker, there's only one other breaker it could be.


----------



## nealtw (Sep 29, 2017)

With prefab walls it would be hard to say where the wires might be going. If a switch has 1 cable the power is going to the light first. If the switch has two cables, 1 has power the other is going to the light.
If the switch has three cables one of them might be the one you are looking for.

Outlets that have 2 cables could be the one. and then I would be checking both sides of that or those looking for one that has power on one side only.

If a critter has chewed a wire in half it will be impossible to find. You would have to know where the other end was to do a continuity test on it. 

A light fixture with three cables could also be the guy. It should have been a gfci?????????


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 29, 2017)

nealtw said:


> With prefab walls it would be hard to say where the wires might be going. If a switch has 1 cable the power is going to the light first. If the switch has two cables, 1 has power the other is going to the light.
> If the switch has three cables one of them might be the one you are looking for.
> 
> Outlets that have 2 cables could be the one. and then I would be checking both sides of that or those looking for one that has power on one side only.
> ...



How will I know when I found "the guy?" Especially since all other switches, outlets, and light fixtures work?

But at least I know what to look for with number of wires.

Here are the number of wires for everything on this breaker:

Light switch in bedroom = 2
Outlet in bedroom = 2
Outlet on other side of wall = 3
Light switch in bathroom next to non-working outlet = 2
Non-working outlet = 1

I also found 2 other light switches (and their corresponding fixtures that are on this breaker, but they are on the opposite end of the mobile home, one of the lights is exterior).

The breaker is 1/2 of a breaker. I think it's 20 amp. Pic attached.


----------



## nealtw (Sep 29, 2017)

What you are looking for is one that is working but something funky about one of the wires, loose connection, burnt or broken wire.  Obviously power going in one side and dead on the other side.


----------



## nealtw (Sep 29, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> How will I know when I found "the guy?" Especially since all other switches, outlets, and light fixtures work?
> 
> But at least I know what to look for with number of wires.
> 
> ...



John If you pull the wires out of an outlet and turn the breaker back on and map every outlet that no longer works you will know  then which outlets are on each circuits.

When you find one that when you disconnect the wires and nothing else stops working you may have found the wire,

I would pull the cover off the panel and see if that breaker has a wire going to it.


----------



## frodo (Sep 29, 2017)

turn breaker off
remove the gfi. separate the wires
turn the breaker on
touch this  

to the wires that are exposed, when it lights up, the wires are hot

now,  plug in your whatever/toaster into an outlet to see which outlets do not work
when you find the dead outlet,
remove the  plug in device
separate the wires
wire nut your tester onto the wires
GO BACK to the box where you have power
touch the wires together. while looking over at your tester
when it lights up.  bingo !!!!!
rinse and repeat


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 29, 2017)

nealtw said:


> John If you pull the wires out of an outlet and turn the breaker back on and map every outlet that no longer works you will know  then which outlets are on each circuits.
> 
> When you find one that when you disconnect the wires and nothing else stops working you may have found the wire,
> 
> I would pull the cover off the panel and see if that breaker has a wire going to it.



There are two black wires connected to this breaker. One goes up, the other down.

So this means that this breaker is divided in two?

I am currently reattaching the outlets that I took off (replacing them with normal outlets)


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 29, 2017)

frodo said:


> turn breaker off
> remove the gfi. separate the wires
> turn the breaker on
> touch this  View attachment 14767
> ...



But the circuit with the GFCI works fine?


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 29, 2017)

nealtw said:


> John If you pull the wires out of an outlet and turn the breaker back on and map every outlet that no longer works you will know  then which outlets are on each circuits.
> 
> When you find one that when you disconnect the wires and nothing else stops working you may have found the wire,
> 
> I would pull the cover off the panel and see if that breaker has a wire going to it.



I am trying to replace the mobile home switch with a normal one. I can do this for outlets, but switches seem to be different. There are 2 brass screws, a ground, and a BLACK. What's the black? Is that where I put both white wires to?

I am in the process of using process of elimination to see which wires go where.


----------



## frodo (Sep 29, 2017)

switches are different
wire nut all the whites together
the black goes to the switch


----------



## frodo (Sep 29, 2017)

white wire goes to the black screw IF you are wireing a 3 way switch


----------



## frodo (Sep 29, 2017)

INTERMISSION

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--AvCsh48bk"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--AvCsh48bk[/ame]


----------



## frodo (Sep 29, 2017)

............[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt_8aDOJvtM"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt_8aDOJvtM[/ame]


----------



## frodo (Sep 29, 2017)

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_2D8Eo15wE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_2D8Eo15wE[/ame]...............


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 30, 2017)

frodo said:


> switches are different
> wire nut all the whites together
> the black goes to the switch



I don't understand. Here's what I have:

The wires at the switch are two cables, each with a black wire, white wire, and ground wire. They are currently nutted together because I was testing other things, but I will take them apart.

Here is the switch I bought. It has a ground screw, two brass screws, and a black screw.

What goes to what?


----------



## frodo (Sep 30, 2017)

the switch in the picture is a 3 way switch

3 way switch


single pole switch



both single and 3 way switches


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 30, 2017)

frodo said:


> the switch in the picture is a 3 way switch
> 
> 3 way switch
> View attachment 14773
> ...



So it sounds like I need to return my 3 way switch and buy a basic one.

Btw, as far as the outlet goes, I checked and mapped every outlet, switch, and fixture on that breaker, and none of them go to that outlet. I'm done for the night but back at it tomorrow. It is obvious which breaker I should try next.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 30, 2017)

Looking ahead to tomorrow. Let's assume I will find the cable that goes to the non-working outlet. Then what? I can't exactly drag it out of the wall to see if a rat chewed it, can I? Other than circumstantial evidence, how do I make sure I have the right cable? Is this the continuity test?

Here's my guess. I take a DC tester, not a multimeter, I attach speaker wire to the clamp and splice the other end to the black wire in one room. I then poke the tester to the other end of the black wire in question? But of course, if a rat chewed through, that won't help me.

Btw, what's my answer if a rat chewed through?


----------



## frodo (Sep 30, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Looking ahead to tomorrow. Let's assume I will find the cable that goes to the non-working outlet.



have you replaced EVERY outlet on that circuit? from the back stabs to a 
outlet with screws?


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 30, 2017)

frodo said:


> have you replaced EVERY outlet on that circuit? from the back stabs to a
> outlet with screws?



Yes.

.......


----------



## frodo (Sep 30, 2017)

have you changed out all the switches?
an outlet can be wired from a switch,  just depends on how the wire was pulled

the wire can very well be pulled from the room behind that room
check and see if there is a plug in, on the opposite side of that wall directly behind the plug in


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 30, 2017)

frodo said:


> have you changed out all the switches?
> an outlet can be wired from a switch,  just depends on how the wire was pulled
> 
> the wire can very well be pulled from the room behind that room
> check and see if there is a plug in, on the opposite side of that wall directly behind the plug in




Yes. It's not on that breaker.

I know which breaker to test next. Once I find a wire that I think is the one, how do I test to make sure?


----------



## frodo (Sep 30, 2017)

turn breakers off
take apart the plug ins and switches
turn breaker on


touch the wires to find the live one


----------



## Snoonyb (Sep 30, 2017)

He has a VOM.

Or did you mean to wet his finger first.


----------



## frodo (Sep 30, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> He has a VOM.
> 
> Or did you mean to wet his finger first.



in his earlier post he seemed......befuddled  
with the use of a volt meter
using the little tester I have posted takes the twitterpation out of the task , when you have power the light comes on, no power, no light


----------



## Snoonyb (Sep 30, 2017)

That may need another trip to the store.

He also missed the directions in the GFCI to use the test reset buttons.


----------



## frodo (Sep 30, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> That may need another trip to the store.
> 
> He also missed the directions in the GFCI to use the test reset buttons.




Yeah, i fell out of my chair when I read that, Spilled my tea on the keyboard
scared the damn cat,


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 30, 2017)

Here is a map of the entire mobile home.

O = outlet
S = switch
F = fixture (light or fan)

The numbers that are not in parenthesis is the breaker number. The numbers in parenthesis are how many cables go to that box.

I tested all of breaker 3. The next most likely are 5 and 8. The cables in 8 are black, but the cable to this non-working outlet is white. I tested everything on 5 that is in the bedroom on the left side.

The non-working outlet is the "O" on the bottom left with no number next to it that is right next to S3.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 30, 2017)

I've tested every box in a 9 mile radius and have found nothing that leads to that wire.


----------



## frodo (Sep 30, 2017)

can not make heads or tails out of that paper

draw a floor plan that shows the rooms and outlets

like this, i understand this


----------



## Snoonyb (Sep 30, 2017)

What does "53" represent?


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 30, 2017)

frodo said:


> can not make heads or tails out of that paper
> 
> draw a floor plan that shows the rooms and outlets
> 
> like this, i understand this



Here it is....


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 30, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> What does "53" represent?



S3 (not 53) is a switch on the 3rd breaker.


----------



## frodo (Sep 30, 2017)

so where are the outlets and switches?


----------



## Snoonyb (Sep 30, 2017)

Are the switch, S3, and the recepticle/conductors, in question in the same box?


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 30, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Are the switch, S3, and the recepticle/conductors, in question in the same box?




Yes.

.......


----------



## Snoonyb (Sep 30, 2017)

And there is no hot pair in that box?

And the switch does not energize the light?


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 30, 2017)

frodo said:


> so where are the outlets and switches?




I don't really have time. Someone's moving in tomorrow. He said he's okay with that outlet not working.

One thing I did notice was that breaker 3 (the one that controls everything near that outlet) has 2 wires coming out of it. It's the bottom red breaker in the pic. I tested these individually. Seems that one wire controls everything and the other one does nothing. There's also a loose black wire in the circuit panel.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Sep 30, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> And there is no hot pair in that box?
> 
> And the switch does not energize the light?




The switch works fine. It operates the light.


----------



## Snoonyb (Sep 30, 2017)

You need to put a wirenut on the loose black conductor at the top of the breakers.

The breaker #3 is a split breaker and controls 2 separate circuits.

If there is no reading of 120V from each screw, individually, to ground, after you have shut both breakers off and back on, 1/2 of the breaker is bad and should be replaced.

You also have an unused breaker space at the top of the left hand row of breakers, and you should take the 3rd conductor away from the red breaker an install it in its own breaker.

Installing a split, 20A, breaker like #3 will afford you a spare for future use.


----------



## Snoonyb (Sep 30, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> The switch works fine. It operates the light.



How many conductors are in that box, and/or how many Romex?


----------



## nealtw (Oct 1, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I am trying to replace the mobile home switch with a normal one. I can do this for outlets, but switches seem to be different. There are 2 brass screws, a ground, and a BLACK. What's the black? Is that where I put both white wires to?
> 
> I am in the process of using process of elimination to see which wires go where.



See the picture Frodo posted The power is at the light and comes to the switch on the white wire and goes back on the black. Just change them with wire for wire.


----------



## nealtw (Oct 1, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I am trying to replace the mobile home switch with a normal one. I can do this for outlets, but switches seem to be different. There are 2 brass screws, a ground, and a BLACK. What's the black? Is that where I put both white wires to?
> 
> I am in the process of using process of elimination to see which wires go where.



See Frodo's picture and just change wire for wire.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Oct 2, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> How many conductors are in that box, and/or how many Romex?




2 Romex connected to the switch.

1 to the non-working outlet.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Oct 2, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> You need to put a wirenut on the loose black conductor at the top of the breakers.
> 
> The breaker #3 is a split breaker and controls 2 separate circuits.
> 
> ...



On the split red breaker, the top red switch controls one circuit.

The bottom red switch has two wires coming out of it. One of them controls a circuit. The other seemingly does nothing.

Any way to test if it actually leads anywhere? And same for that loose wire that I put a nut on?


----------



## Snoonyb (Oct 2, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> 2 Romex connected to the switch.
> 
> 1 to the non-working outlet.



Romex is the cable that contains the conductors.

A black, white and bare copper conductors enclosed in a white or yellow sheath, is a typical 2 and a ground romex.


----------



## Snoonyb (Oct 2, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> On the split red breaker, the top red switch controls one circuit.





farmerjohn1324 said:


> The bottom red switch has two wires coming out of it. One of them controls a circuit. The other seemingly does nothing.



*When you turn that breaker off, do both of them go off, or can you turn them off individually?*

It's actually illegal to have 2 circuits connected too 1 breaker and why the advice.
However, in the mean time, and with the breaker off, disconnect one of the conductors and you can find what no longer works.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> Any way to test if it actually leads anywhere? And same for that loose wire that I put a nut on?



There are a number of circuit tracers, or you can install a breaker in the spare, connect the conductor and turn the breaker on.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Oct 2, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Romex is the cable that contains the conductors.
> 
> A black, white and bare copper conductors enclosed in a white or yellow sheath, is a typical 2 and a ground romex.



I know that.

There are two sheaths connecting to the switch, and one to the outlet.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Oct 2, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> *When you turn that breaker off, do both of them go off, or can you turn them off individually?*
> 
> It's actually illegal to have 2 circuits connected too 1 breaker and why the advice.
> However, in the mean time, and with the breaker off, disconnect one of the conductors and you can find what no longer works.
> ...



I have already tested the individual wires that are connected to the bottom red switch.

The red switches can be turned off individually.

It occurred to me that maybe the non-working outlet is connected to the loose wire in the panel.


----------



## Snoonyb (Oct 2, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I know that.
> 
> There are two sheaths connecting to the switch, and one to the outlet.



What are the colors of the two conductors connected to the recep.


----------



## Snoonyb (Oct 2, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I have already tested the individual wires that are connected to the bottom red switch.
> 
> The red switches can be turned off individually.
> 
> It occurred to me that maybe the non-working outlet is connected to the loose wire in the panel.



That could very well be, so connect it to a breaker and find out.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Oct 3, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> What are the colors of the two conductors connected to the recep.



I don't know what "recep" means. I'll assume it means switch. There are two white sheathings. Each sheathing contains a black, white, and copper.

To the non-working outlet, there is one sheathing, containing the same.


----------



## Snoonyb (Oct 3, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I don't know what "recep" means. I'll assume it means switch. There are two white sheathings. Each sheathing contains a black, white, and copper.



RECEP=RECEPTICLE, IE. a device you plug something into.

So, there are 2 ROMEX each with a black, white and copper CONDUCTORS.One is connected to a switch, and is presumedly a SWITCH LEG and operates the light fixture, and the other is connected to the RECEP., and is presumedly the HOT PAIR, which is not energized.

Were you able to connect the aforementioned "black" conductor to a breaker and find out what was energized?


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Oct 3, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> RECEP=RECEPTICLE, IE. a device you plug something into.
> 
> So, there are 2 ROMEX each with a black, white and copper CONDUCTORS.One is connected to a switch, and is presumedly a SWITCH LEG and operates the light fixture, and the other is connected to the RECEP., and is presumedly the HOT PAIR, which is not energized.
> 
> Were you able to connect the aforementioned "black" conductor to a breaker and find out what was energized?



There is only 1 sheathing connected to the outlet. 2 to the switch.

The switch and outlet are not connected. I've looked at every switch and outlet on that half of the house and can't find what powers the outlet.

I tried connecting the loose wire in the panel and that wasn't it.


----------



## Snoonyb (Oct 3, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> There is only 1 sheathing connected to the outlet. 2 to the switch.
> 
> The switch and outlet are not connected. I've looked at every switch and outlet on that half of the house and can't find what powers the outlet.
> 
> I tried connecting the loose wire in the panel and that wasn't it.



Of the 2 romex that are involved with the switch, is 1 of them the hot pair?


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Oct 3, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Of the 2 romex that are involved with the switch, is 1 of them the hot pair?



Yes, and the other goes to the fixture. It's working fine.


----------



## Snoonyb (Oct 3, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Yes, and the other goes to the fixture. It's working fine.



Here are your 2 options; you can purchase a FLUKE circuit tracer for about $70 and trace the conductors presently connected to the recp. that doesn't work to where the circuit is interrupted. OR, purchase a GFCI recep., because it's in a bathroom, a black, white and grnd. pigtails, 3 yellow and 2 red wirenuts to connect the GFCI too the hot pair, and to also safe off the non working conductors presently disconnected from the non-working recep.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Oct 3, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Here are your 2 options; you can purchase a FLUKE circuit tracer for about $70 and trace the conductors presently connected to the recp. that doesn't work to where the circuit is interrupted. OR, purchase a GFCI recep., because it's in a bathroom, a black, white and grnd. pigtails, 3 yellow and 2 red wirenuts to connect the GFCI too the hot pair, and to also safe off the non working conductors presently disconnected from the non-working recep.



I understood the first part. Would need to see a picture for the second.


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## nealtw (Oct 3, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I understood the first part. Would need to see a picture for the second.



I think he meant, you don't need or want the gfci to take out the lights and fan so you just pigtail them all and go to the line side.


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## Snoonyb (Oct 3, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I understood the first part. Would need to see a picture for the second.



*Understand that this is a temporary fix as the use of the GFCI may well cause an overload, circuit failure and loss of lighting.*

I don't do pictures, so I'll describe it for you;With the breaker off, Disconnect the black conductor of the hot pair from the switch and straighten it, strip and connect 2 black pigtails too the black conductor of the hot pair by twisting them together with a plier and capping with a red wirenut, connect the other striped end of 1 of the black pigtails to the switch, connect the striped end of the other black pigtail to the hot/black of the GFCI.

Remove the wirenut from the white conductors, connect the striped end of the white pigtail to the other white conductors, also twisting together with a plier and cap with a red wirenut, connect the other end of the striped white conductor at the white/neutral connection of the GFCI.

Connect the grnd. pigtail to the grnds. connected to the switch and then to the grnd screw on the GFCI.

Turn the breaker back on, press the TEST/RESET on the GFCI


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## hornetd (Nov 10, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> After doing some research, I have pretty much determined that if I replace the GFCI, it should fix 2, if not 3, of the outlets.
> 
> I am going to replace the mobile home stab-in outlets with regular outlets. What kind of plastic box do I need to make this safe?
> 
> ...



Any box that will contain a receptacle, switch, or splice of the 120/240 volt wiring must completely enclose the connections on the back and all four sides.  The front of the box needs to be within 1/8 inch of the exposed surface of a non combustible wall finish such as plaster board (Sheet Rock tm).  If the wall surface is combustible then the front edge of the box must be actually flush with the combustible surface or protrude out beyond that surface.  There must be no pathway between the connections and any combustible part of the structure for a spark from a failed connection to ignite the combustible material.  The entire purpose of electrical boxes is to enclose connections so that sparks cannot ignite combustible materials.  

Every wire that passes through a box without a splice, every wire that enters the box and terminates in the box, and every device mounted in that box "Owns" some space inside the box that cannot be shared with the other wires or devices.  The amount of space is matched to the size of the wire and to twice the space for the largest wire that terminates on any one device or devices that are all on the same mounting strap or yoke.  If the wires in those boxes are size 14 American Wire Gauge (AWG) then you must have 2.0 cubic inches for each wire and 4.0 cubic inches for each mounting strap or yoke that one of those 14 AWG wires terminates on.  Using the box in the second link above as an example it has 18 cubic inches of interior space.  All of the Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGCs) count as One single wire, 18-2=16.  Three cables with a total of six insulated current carrying conductors require 12 cubic inches 16-12=4.  The device mounted in that box that has nothing larger than 14 AWG wires terminated to it requires 4 cubic inches of space 4-4=0.  So that box could hold Six wires, Three EGCs counting as a single wire, and one strap or yoke on which #14 AWG conductors terminate.  

The problem will be that the walls in most manufactured homes are only ~2&5/8 inches thick including the sheathing on both sides.  That makes the only type of box that is practical to install a 4 inches square by 1&1/2 inches deep with a 5/8 inch deep inch plaster ring on it's front to provide the correct size opening for one or two devices.  Then you have to plaster over the plaster ring to hide all that work.  Since you are working in already built wall you will need to cut out enough plasterboard to install standard boxes.  In order to actually get a large enough wiring compartment to hold two cables and a plug the box used must have 14 cubic inches of interior space.  I think that your best way out is to locate the edge of a stud, cut out the opening for a 4 inch square box, add the cable clamps to the two cables, work the two cables into the box, fasten the box in place, and add the plaster ring.  Then you have to plaster over the plaster ring to hide all that work.


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## hornetd (Nov 10, 2017)

frodo said:


> 1-Gang 14 cu. in. Old Work Box
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If that box is over 2 inches deep it will not fit in 1&5/8 inch studded wall.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 10, 2017)

hornetd said:


> Any box that will contain a receptacle, switch, or splice of the 120/240 volt wiring must completely enclose the connections on the back and all four sides.  The front of the box needs to be within 1/8 inch of the exposed surface of a non combustible wall finish such as plaster board (Sheet Rock tm).  If the wall surface is combustible then the front edge of the box must be actually flush with the combustible surface or protrude out beyond that surface.  There must be no pathway between the connections and any combustible part of the structure for a spark from a failed connection to ignite the combustible material.  The entire purpose of electrical boxes is to enclose connections so that sparks cannot ignite combustible materials.
> 
> Every wire that passes through a box without a splice, every wire that enters the box and terminates in the box, and every device mounted in that box "Owns" some space inside the box that cannot be shared with the other wires or devices.  The amount of space is matched to the size of the wire and to twice the space for the largest wire that terminates on any one device or devices that are all on the same mounting strap or yoke.  If the wires in those boxes are size 14 American Wire Gauge (AWG) then you must have 2.0 cubic inches for each wire and 4.0 cubic inches for each mounting strap or yoke that one of those 14 AWG wires terminates on.  Using the box in the second link above as an example it has 18 cubic inches of interior space.  All of the Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGCs) count as One single wire, 18-2=16.  Three cables with a total of six insulated current carrying conductors require 12 cubic inches 16-12=4.  The device mounted in that box that has nothing larger than 14 AWG wires terminated to it requires 4 cubic inches of space 4-4=0.  So that box could hold Six wires, Three EGCs counting as a single wire, and one strap or yoke on which #14 AWG conductors terminate.
> 
> The problem will be that the walls in most manufactured homes are only ~2&5/8 inches thick including the sheathing on both sides.  That makes the only type of box that is practical to install a 4 inches square by 1&1/2 inches deep with a 5/8 inch deep inch plaster ring on it's front to provide the correct size opening for one or two devices.  Then you have to plaster over the plaster ring to hide all that work.  Since you are working in already built wall you will need to cut out enough plasterboard to install standard boxes.  In order to actually get a large enough wiring compartment to hold two cables and a plug the box used must have 14 cubic inches of interior space.  I think that your best way out is to locate the edge of a stud, cut out the opening for a 4 inch square box, add the cable clamps to the two cables, work the two cables into the box, fasten the box in place, and add the plaster ring.  Then you have to plaster over the plaster ring to hide all that work.



These have been referred to him;

https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-Gang-18-cu-in-Shallow-New-Work-Electrical-Box-SNO18-6R/202664424

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-1-Gang-17-cu-in-Shallow-Old-Work-Box-B117RSWR/202077341


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## hornetd (Nov 10, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> These have been referred to him;
> 
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-Gang-18-cu-in-Shallow-New-Work-Electrical-Box-SNO18-6R/202664424
> 
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-1-Gang-17-cu-in-Shallow-Old-Work-Box-B117RSWR/202077341


That "Old Work" one will save him some plastering if they will actually turn into the stud channel without busting out the plaster.


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## afjes_2016 (Nov 10, 2017)

hornetd said:


> That "Old Work" one will save him some plastering if they will actually turn into the stud chanhornetnel without busting out the plaster.



If what I think you are trying to say hornetd is that this "old work" box is not as "fitting" as one would think. I do agree with you as I have stated in previous posts of mine. Attempting to place it in the wall, turn it in and secure it "flush" is quite a challenge.

And yes I know this thread is more than a month old but "hornetd" is just sharing his "field" knowledge with us which can be helpful.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Nov 10, 2017)

I ended up calling an electrician and he used his "mouse" to find out that the outlet was powered by something on the opposite end of the trailer.


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## hornetd (Nov 11, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I ended up calling an electrician and he used his "mouse" to find out that the outlet was powered by something on the opposite end of the trailer.


What did the actual fault end up being?


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## slownsteady (Nov 19, 2017)

Glad to see you back, Tom.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Nov 20, 2017)

hornetd said:


> What did the actual fault end up being?



I honestly forget. This was several months ago and I've had a lot going on since then.


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## afjes_2016 (Nov 20, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I honestly forget. This was several months ago and I've had a lot going on since then.



farmerjohn1324 many people like yourself use forums such as this one to help them solve problems that they are having, in this case electrical problems (electrical forum). Many people do searches on Google etc and within the results links are usually provided to corresponding results that may end up leading a person to come to our forum. The person finds they have the exact (or similar) issue as the person who started the thread and starts to read, as they come to the end of the thread they find that there was no solution "written" mainly because the original poster (OP) never took the time to come back and provide the answer or did not come back and let the members who took their time to answer the posts know that the members suggestions were helpful in solving the issue.

All the members of this forum as I know them to be are volunteers; such they (me) don't get paid for offering their/my field experience to the OPs (original posters).

Just a little bit of common forum etiquette is usually that when you start a thread and you get responses that you take the time to answer the responses to the best of your ability so we can help more efficiently. If you solve the problem it is usually customary to return the the thread and post the solution so people in the future can use that information to help them if needed.



> I've had a lot going on since then


Example: I have a lot going on each day but I do make it a point to try and spend a few minutes to answer your questions to the best of my ability sharing with you my field experience and knowledge. "hornetd" has "decades" of electrical field knowledge under his belt which is far more than some of our other members (including myself) who tend to answer your questions/concerns on a regular basis. I think if we (along with hornetd) take our time to read your posts and attempt to help you solve your issues that you take your time and return and let us know what the solution was.  From what I read in your posts many of the questions you are asking (threads that you create) are to assist you in your "job" not assist you in your personal home repairs. We are making your job easier in many cases; which I don't really mind too much but would appreciate a "thank you" or "problem solved: this is what I found" once in a while. That could take all over one minute to do in comparison to one of your threads with over 30 replies from the member totaling far more of their person time to help you.

Just some "friendly" advise here.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Nov 20, 2017)

afjes_2016 said:


> farmerjohn1324 many people like yourself use forums such as this one to help them solve problems that they are having, in this case electrical problems (electrical forum). Many people do searches on Google etc and within the results links are usually provided to corresponding results that may end up leading a person to come to our forum. The person finds they have the exact (or similar) issue as the person who started the thread and starts to read, as they come to the end of the thread they find that there was no solution "written" mainly because the original poster (OP) never took the time to come back and provide the answer or did not come back and let the members who took their time to answer the posts know that the members suggestions were helpful in solving the issue.
> 
> All the members of this forum as I know them to be are volunteers; such they (me) don't get paid for offering their/my field experience to the OPs (original posters).
> 
> ...



Okay. Thanks for helping.

I tried to remember what the electrician told me, but couldn't recall.

Might have been related to the GFCI in the other bathroom.


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