# Improper plumbing & trying to remodel bathroom/laundry



## zannej

I hope that this is the right place for this since it mostly involves plumbing.

My family purchased this house in the late 1980s but we lived overseas for 9 years while we had some "friends" become tenants. The general deal was that they would pay the cost of the insurance premium (about $87 per month) and keep vagrants out of the house. They were supposed to take care of our property, keep the house and yard maintained, and take care of our livestock in exchange for living there while they built their own house on some property nearby. If they needed money to fix something, they were supposed to ask us or our lawyer. We ended up getting royally screwed over. We'd had ducks, chickens, geese, goats, guinea hens, cats, horses, cows, etc. Only one horse and one cow were left when we came back. I will not get in to the litany of complaints, but basically they robbed us blind and did well over $65k worth of damage to the place (that is not counting the loss from theft). Our lawyer screwed us over. The cops knew about all sorts of illegal things these criminals did and didn't attempt to let us know or try to stop them. So we came back to find our lumber stolen, circuit boxes missing, electrical outlets missing, plumbing totally messed up, wiring messed up, floors ruined, walls damaged, mice everywhere, roaches everywhere, septic tank lid broken (they tried to hide this with a flimsy piece of plastic and I discovered it when I nearly fell through the hole), and trash/vehicles dumped all over our yard. It was not easy to get them to move out and after they did and we changed the locks, they broke in to steal stuff again. 

The wiring is a tale for another thread, but the plumbing... Every single sink has an S-trap. The plumbing vents had been completely torn out, some of the fixtures weren't hooked up at all, and it the wrong fittings were used for things... 

Anyway, the house has 3 bathrooms. Two are ensuites and one is a tiny guest bathroom with the toilet jammed in to a 23" wide alcove. It's meant to be my brother's bathroom but he is wider than the alcove. He has to walk sideways through the 24" doorway. My ensuite is currently under repair (no toilet installed right now) so everyone has to traipse through my mother's room to use her ugly ensuite. All of the bathrooms need some renovation and I'm debating whether or not to make separate threads for each of them or if I should keep it all here.

First I'm going to focus on the guest bathroom and cramped laundry room.

This is an isometric sketch of the area with the laundry room and bathroom. It is pretty much oriented with North at the top. North of this area is the kitchen. To the west is my brother's small bedroom.






After reviewing pictures, here is my unscientific, not to scale, rough sketch of what I can figure out from looking at pictures of the plumbing under the house.





I *think* the toilet has a 3" drain (but it could be 4"-- I haven't measured as everytime I get near the mosquitoes decide its time for lunch). It goes in to a sanitary tee that hooks to some sort of reducer. I suspect it is a fernco fitting  missing the metal straps. It reduces quite a bit-- I think that its 2" or maybe 1.5". I'm not good at judging size. The tee drops down to an elbow that connects to the main soil pipe that is sitting on the ground. There is no cleanout.








https://scontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net...8_10152151213875168_4451410713330883152_n.jpg

Sorry about the trash. Trash cans got knocked over and stuff got blown under the house.

I don't know for sure, but I think that the reduction in size violates code. I believe that the main vent pipe is smaller than it should be-- IIRC, it should remain at about 3" until it gets to a certain height-- perhaps in to the attic-- and then it can reduce. Am I right or wrong on this?

This 4-picture per post thing is killing me. LOL. I'm going to have to split it up into multiple posts to get the images in.


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## zannej

The shower drain does not appear to have a P-trap and it drops directly down in to the main sewer pipe. It has no sanitary tee. Instead it has this dark T fitting that someone told me was a pressure fitting (unless they were referring to something else and I was wrong). I can't quite see how it attaches to the soil pipe because of some trash that I need to clean up. I'm not eager to go crawling around under there because the last time was when I was helping my father run some ethernet lines and phone lines. I was about 50lbs lighter and I still got my fat behind stuck under a pipe-- I was literally stuck bc of my a$$. My father had a good laugh over that one. Fortunately I was near the fireplace so I was able to push myself free so I was able to laugh about it too.

Anyway, the shower drain branches in to what should be a vent to the north. It travels several feet and then appears to switch from PVC to an ABS elbow that takes it up in to the house directly in to the drain of the old lavatory (which fell off the wall so there is just a broken pipe there letting in sewer gasses). /facepalm









The pvc zigzagging around is probably a sleeve for the wiring to the washer/dryer outlet.

A friend of mine stuck his cellphone in to the space from the south and took video. I extracted some screen captures.

Here is a view of the toilet drain from the south (facing north). The pipe with the 3 elbows appears to be an old metal water supply line for the old washing machine.





Here's a picture I snagged of it from the east side.


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## zannej

Here are the shots from when my friend panned the camera westward and then southward.
The trash actually helps to identify the location somewhat. Sorry some of the pics are so fuzzy.

















It's hard to see, but in the last shot, it appears that the drain for the old laundry sink drains in to a pipe that travels east. Other than in the corner, I don't really have access to the underside of the house from the southern end in order to get more pictures. I'd have to dig a hole and crawl under somewhere.

I forgot to mention that the septic tank is to the west of the house and the water well is to the southeast of the house. The water heater is sort of in the middle of the house.


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## zannej

You might be wondering what the point of this is thus far. Basically the bathroom and laundry room do not work as-is. Because of the plumbing and a shelf behind the washer and dryer, there is barely any room to deal with laundry. I constantly find myself bumping in to the southern wall and there really isn't space to fold the laundry. After getting measurements and kicking around ideas with some folks on Houzz, I finally realized that the best solution would probably be to swap the bathroom and laundry room. This would make it so that the bathroom could have more space and the laundry room would be easier to access. No more trying to squeeze through that narrow hallway with a laundry basket in tow! On paper it may look spacious, but we have some old wall panels stacked up against one of the walls and they are taking up space. The bathroom is currently serving as a storage closet for junk because there was always a foul smell in there (likely bc of the improper venting).

The washing machine currently does not appear to have  P-trap nor does it seem to have a vent.

Since there is already a door arch leading in to the laundry room, we could add a frame and install a door. 

Here is a sketch based on the isometric drawing of what I would like to do with the space.




Red * represents current position of light fixtures. The bathroom has an old failing light/heat/ventfan. The laundry room currently has a small ceiling fan with the fan kit installed upsidedown.

The washer/dryer could be moved over either north or south or separated with something. I would love to find a way to have a murphy table that I can use for folding laundry but then fold it back when its not in use.

Here is the rough plumbing diagram I sketched of the possible changes. (This does not include tie-ins for the kitchen sink, nor the other bathrooms)





A brief note on plumbing code in my state: 





Other relevant plumbing code updates for my state:
https://24.media.tumblr.com/2fcb6943c7671addfeac023c48f42b42/tumblr_n62s60XhPg1qkwd9ao1_500.png
https://24.media.tumblr.com/886aa48b9d8f5fe45402defc43a52266/tumblr_n62s60XhPg1qkwd9ao2_500.png
https://24.media.tumblr.com/bee35c8a4847b3a58fdce96811b4c284/tumblr_n62s60XhPg1qkwd9ao3_500.png

In case images are not working very well, here is a summary of what I plan to do and why.

* Find out what permits (if any) are needed and obtain them. The health inspector told me that they were not needed in my area, but I need to be certain.
* Tear down east and most of north wall of bathroom.
* Install 30" doorway with door swinging outward (northeast) to avoid collision with walls or people using lavatory. Inward swing would violate minimum code distance of doorswing from front of lavatory. (I think about 24")
* Leave wall switch for light in place, but install GFCI outlet on west wall next to vanity (as per code requirement to have GFCI outlet available within reach of lavatory).
* Move toilet to north wall of new bathroom at least 18" from center of toilet to side of tub (minimum code requirement 15"). This way it would not be too far from the main vent stack. I considered putting it between shower and lavatory but it would be too cramped as the vanity is 26"Wx17"D.
* Install euro style vanity (already purchased) in southwest corner of new bathroom-- where the old utility sink was plumbed in. I would either have to move the plumbing inside of the wall or have a small bulkhead to bump it out to avoid having to cut a hole in the drawer. Or I could bump it forward and have a shelf behind and build out a box to hold the medicine cabinet that fits between studs- that way I could avoid having stuff go in to the exterior wall. 
* Remove all wall panels and install insulation and moisture barrier.
* Rip up floor in new bathroom down to the joists because the floor is badly damaged. Add a moisture barrier in the floor.
* Install a 30"x60" tub against east wall of new bathroom. 
* Install handheld showerhead 7' high on north wall of tub.
* Use wonderboard Lite 1/4" for walls of shower/tub and install a 5 piece shower tub surround. Cut the surround to fit around the window, add some sort of curtain to keep water off of window when showering, add 1/4" slope to window sill to drain water and seal things up to prevent water damage in case it gets wet.
* Make sure floor is reinforced to hold weight of tub.
* Seal up existing hole for dryer vent and move it north on the east wall. I have some spare siding to cover it on the outside.
* Move washer/dryer to the east wall in the area that used to be the bathroom. Put sliders underneath the laundry pedestals to make it easier to move them without scraping the floor.
* Use existing water supply from old lavatory for washing machine and install one of those laundry outlet box thingies (need to find the right one)
* Move power outlet for washer/dryer to a spot that both appliances can reach easily (preferably somewhere that is accessible should they need to be unplugged)
* Replace floor in hallway and new laundry room with vinyl plank.
* Install vinyl sheet flooring in new bathroom.
* Move ceiling fan to new laundry room and fix the fan kit.
* Install NuTone 70CFM vent/heat/light in new bathroom ceiling.
* Cover missing ceiling tiles over tub area with something or just replace fallen tiles.
* Make sure that all water supply lines are to code (CPVC or approved metal).
* Figure out what fittings to use for DWV system and the correct order in which to hook things in. (I'm still a bit confused about some of the rules on upstream and downstream).
* Have cleanouts in appropriate places.
* Pressure test the pipes.
* Enjoy the new setup when it is complete.

I have an electrician friend who can do the wiring for me and who can help with the plumbing if need be (he is skinny and can fit under the house-- he recently redid some plumbing at his own house). I need to find out how much of the work I can legally do myself. Since most of the work appears to not have been done to code anyway, I think whatever I do would be an improvement because it looks like the current setup was done by a monkey.

So, I guess my questions are:

1. Does anyone know if I can legally do my own plumbing so long as it is to code?
2. How do I pressure test the pipes?
3. How do I prepare the space to install a tub in a place that has never had a tub before?
4. Any ideas on good 30"x60" tub surrounds? I'm looking for a kit that has corner shelves. The more shelves the better. I suppose it can probably be wider than 30" if I add trim or something. I'm not sure what trim to get for that though.
5. I've heard of something called a "plumbing box" for routing pipes through walls, anyone know more info on those?
6. Does my plumbing diagram look ok? Should I make any changes?
7. What fittings should I use and in what orientation should they be to hook in to the main soil pipe? I'm thinking some wyes with 1/8 bends sweeping downward toward the west.
8. Where would I need the cleanouts? 
9. From what you can see of the images, does it look like the main vent stack pipe is of sufficient size for the load?
10. Is this diagram actually the real code rules? Does the 24" space have to be on both ends of the tub (because most bathrooms I've seen have the toilets closer than that) or is this just a general guide?





That is all I can think of for now. I appreciate any feedback.


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## nealtw

So if you re-design the bathroom you will be changing the plumbing anyway, You can spend more time planning what you will do instead of trying to figure this crap out.
If the washer and dryer were moved to replace the bathroom door and sink facing the hallway by the back door. that wood give you a bathroom better than 8x8. You would have to remove the window in the present bathroom. Remove the wall between the toilet and washing and build a new wet wall 2X6 and the toilet can be just turned around and located with a little more space (36" min.)
You would have room for tub with suround for shower.


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## nealtw

I think the 21" min is to the center of the toilet, our rule is 18 and I put in a bigger tub so I have 16" from the tub to the center of bowl.


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> So if you re-design the bathroom you will be changing the plumbing anyway, You can spend more time planning what you will do instead of trying to figure this crap out.
> If the washer and dryer were moved to replace the bathroom door and sink facing the hallway by the back door. that wood give you a bathroom better than 8x8. You would have to remove the window in the present bathroom. Remove the wall between the toilet and washing and build a new wet wall 2X6 and the toilet can be just turned around and located with a little more space (36" min.)
> You would have room for tub with surround for shower.



I've spent over a year off and on planning this, now its down to just the finer details.

I think I can picture what you are describing, but I'm not certain. I'm a visual person so pictures work best for me.

Removing the window is not an option. I don't have enough spare siding to cover it up. Plus when I mentioned the idea of removing a window before I received the death glare from a 63-year-old woman. 

I would love to make the bathroom larger, but any plans to remove the wall between the laundry room and existing bathroom were vetoed. My earlier plans did have that option but the old lady said "NO". That wall had to stay in order for her to even consider the renovation. Don't ask me why, she doesn't exactly use logic when making decisions. LOL. The current plan and one variation with the washer and dryer just on the opposite side of the wall facing north were the only plans that she approved.

I do appreciate your suggestions though. Thank you!


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## zannej

I'm starting to consider having the toilet on the same wall as the vanity which would allow for a larger entry door. That way the toilet paper could be mounted to the side of the vanity to save some space. 

Then I can just run the vents up inside the wall and then through the attic to meet with the main vent stack.

I know this is still ahead in the future since I need to finish other projects first, but I want to have things all planned out when it comes time to work on this.


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## zannej

Even though this project is on the back burner, I've still been trying to think of ways to make it work. One of the problems was having to re-locate the dryer duct on the exterior wall. I do have extra siding, but I would still have to fill in the existing hole and cut a new one. I'm not big on cutting holes in the walls.
So, I found some alternative solutions.

The first was a window vent. There is at least one designed specifically for windows. I could place it in the window and then run the duct upward to it.
Window Dryer Vent (Adjusts 18" Inch Through 24" Inch) by Vent Works




Pros: I would not have to cut a new hole in the wall, the vent would be easily accessible, it can telescope to be larger or smaller so it can adjust to fit different windows, and it can be removed and put back in with relative ease.
Cons: It is pretty damn ugly, it would require additional insulation on it to keep it from letting cold/hot air in/out, it would require some shimming and filling in places if the window is not square, it blocks some of the light coming in, it would require the vent duct to travel upward which might cause lint to accumulate at the bottom, and it might have an easier chance of getting accidentally disconnected because its in a place the cats might climb. Also, if it is not meant to be in permanently, I would have to keep taking it in and out to use it, which would be a pain-- especially since I don't know where I would store it when not in use.

Next option is a slimmer 90 degree solid duct that is 5.1" deep.
DAF1 Skinny Duct" Telescoping Aluminum Dryer Vent (18" to 31") by Deflect-O





There is an even slimmer option.
Dryer Vent Tite Fit, 90 Degree 18" to 30" by Lambro




Pros: They are made of rigid material and thus are less likely to bend, its harder for mice to get inside, they are fairly smooth so there is less chance of accumulating lint, they are slim so the washer and dryer could be pushed closer to the wall, there might be enough room to fit them between the back side of the bathtub and the exterior wall, and they are less likely to be able to get messed up than the flexible ducts.
Cons: Its possible that adjustments might be made so they can fit between the bathtub and the exterior wall, I'm not sure how difficult they are to clean, since it is rigid, it will be less forgiving in positional allowance, it may be harder to move the dryer in to place because it will have to be moved backward and then sideways to get the metal to fit through the wall (although, I can move the extension part over and leave a bit of space between the dryer and the wall that could have fold-down ironing board or small folding shelf or something).

Additional info:
The specs for my Electrolux dryer show that the distance from the center of the opening for the duct is 13.5" from the side of the dryer.




The hole for the vent is fairly close to the north wall
(continued so pictures will fit)


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## zannej

(sorry this picture sucks-- the flex venting stuff has ripped and detached and you can barely see the vent behind it-- dryer is currently not operational)




I'd say the center is no more than 3" from the wall, so the 90 bend one would not have to go very far. Only thing is, I don't know what size vent that is, it looks pretty small. Do they make vents that are 3" diameter? I'm guessing it might be a 4" but its hard to tell.

The house doesn't have drywall so most of it is covered in wall panels like this:




(yes, that is laundry all over the floor-- my brother opened his door and just shoved his laundry into the hall)

I was previously thinking of using something like this for the vent (since the stuff I have is broken and crappy). I wonder how much flex this has and if I'd be able to use a small length of it to give myself a bit more wiggle room with the dryer should I need to move it at some point.
Deflecto Am42 4-Inch Diameter by 2-Feet Semi-Rigid Flexible Aluminum Duct by Deflecto






I saw a picture that has pretty much the layout I'm thinking of going with for the bathroom (although my vanity is not so wide and I would hope to have more space in between fixtures-- tub would also be left-drain because its closer to the existing water supply for shower)






I think I'll go with adding a new vent on the exterior wall for the toilet and sink and then tying the washer and shower to the existing vent. I'm also thinking of having an access panel on the wall between the dryer and the tub so that I can reach in and fiddle with if necessary- shutoffs for the tub/shower would be a good idea there.

Edit: I just realized that the hole for the spot on the dryer where the stuff appears to be attached is not in the same place that was shown in the Electrolux diagram.. Hmm...


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## slownsteady

You have a lot of stuff going on in this post. For me, it is almost impossible to track all the info. You can try breaking this down into bite-sized chunks for us (me).

Re the dryer vent: as a rule, the rigid smooth pipe is always the better choice. Keep in mind that you must have access to the pipe, because you will have to disconnect it to clean it periodically. So the skinny duct makes sense if the space is tight. The less turns, the better. I don't think the window duct is a portable solution. You would pick a window, and mount it with the intention of it being "permanent". I think you are right in your list of negatives for that. I hate poking holes of any size into the skin of my house, but I would make a hole for the dryer vent. You should not require any spare siding to do that.

Get yourself a sturdy landscaping rake and a hoe. I suspect you will have to redo all the plumbing under the house, so you might as well scrape out some extra space under there, or find a skinny plumber.


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## zannej

Yeah, sorry my thoughts are not so organized. I do need to break it down better. I just need to figure out how. I'm a stream of consciousness person and its all in one big file in my brain.

The reason I would need more siding is to cover up the old hole if I make a new one. The exterior walls have some asbestos so I wanted to avoid cutting. The plumber is fat, but his brother-in-law who does most of the gruntwork is skinny.

Here's a question, how do I pull my dryer forward to get to the ductwork if the ductwork is attached? It will pull the ducting off, right? I'm worried it will bend.

If it turns out that the vent on my dryer is up high, then I might go with a short slim 90 and a window thing. I could probably even make my own window thing if I really wanted and have it be something thicker than the metal piece I saw and then attach the stuff that would normally go in a hole in the wall. I hope that is making sense. I could use some scrap wood maybe and seal it up well and maybe use some sort of insulation on it. Or maybe they sell other kinds-- I just haven't seen them.

Maybe I can break it down into an IF, THEN, ELSE statement

IF I keep the existing hole for the vent THEN I would have to run some sort of ductwork through the wall and hope it fits behind the tub
ELSE I would have to fill in that hole (replacing the siding) and find another solution.

IF I decide to move the location THEN I would have to make a new hole in the wall
ELSE I would use a window opening for the vent.

I hope that made sense. LOL.

I think I might have to just nix the idea of the semi-rigid and flexible options and just go with slim 90 degree ductwork.


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## nealtw

Somehow that all made sence.
I don't like the window idea. please don't do that. For repairing the old hole, when you buy the new vent for outside by two, seal the door closed on one and install it as a dumby on the old hole, who will know?


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## zannej

Ok. I guess I just need to abridge my thoughts more. LOL.

Ahhh! Thank you for the idea of just leaving some sort of cover on the outside but filling in the inside. That will save time and materials because the hole juts in to two pieces of siding.

I might see if they have a cover that can be closed up to limit airflow. I will have to remove or cut the metal duct piece that is sticking out.

My gut said the window thing is not the best idea so I will have to agree with you. That leaves either a hole straight back OR a slim 90 to the side. I could get a thin rigid 90.
I just need to determine whether the specs from electrolux are correct about the vent position.


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## nealtw

On most vent covers the pipe is easily removed so it can be used as a blank
On the inside have a look at this.
http://www.dryerbox.com/


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> On most vent covers the pipe is easily removed so it can be used as a blank
> On the inside have a look at this.
> http://www.dryerbox.com/



Thanks. The dryer will have its back to an exterior wall, so I will have to find some way to insulate it. It would work well on an interior wall, but putting them against the exterior wall makes things less cramped. I just need to decide if I want them both crammed together tightly or if I want some space in between and whether or not to bump them over more to the left or to the right.

Are there any code issues with having the vent below the window (or near the window)? Its a window which will pretty much be used for light and probably won't be opened.


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## nealtw

I don't know if it is a code issue, I'm in a fairly new house and it is just above the window and about three feet from a door.
I don't think it makes much difference between running the vent straight in line with the dryer pipe or displacing insulation in the wall so you can put the vent elswhere. You just want to make sure you have a good flapper in the vent.


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## zannej

For some reason I envisioned a 20s flapper girl... LOL.

Ok, so there is supposed to be a flapper to prevent stuff from getting back in and it opens when the air is blowing out?


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## zannej

My latest sketch of the layout: (there was some detail pixellated by the compression when I uploaded)





A few things to note:
* The dryer duct would go straight back, but I didn't want to mess up the window in the drawing

* I would probably add a shelf that folds down along the south wall of the laundry room.

* The lavatory is offset from the side wall by 4" per code that I read somewhere (is that really necessary? Could I have it closer to the wall? Like flush against it or 2 inches away?) *Does a Euro-style sink sitting atop a cabinet have to be 4" away from the side wall?*

* The center of the toilet is a little over 15" away from the edge of the lavatory and over 16" away from the edge of the tub

* I'm not quite sure to where I should move the two electrical outlets from the existing laundry room. There are currently two of them. One of the lines seems to run through a PVC pipe under the house. The circuit box is on the northeast side, so moving it closer to there would probably be doable.

* I'm not sure about the placement of the outlet for the washer since its fairly close to the water supply, so I might have to move some things around to make sure that the plug is not likely to get hit with any water.

* Since the ceiling is just some sort of wooden boards (shiplack maybe?), I might take down the ceiling tiles and just paint the ceiling after using some filler in the cracks.

* I need to figure out if I should just move the current bathroom fan over to the new bathroom or add a new one and add more ducting. Either way, I'm going to have to move some ducting. I was thinking of swapping out the ceiling fan from existing laundry with the vent fan.

* I'm thinking of having a movable piece of furniture across from the toilet to store toilet paper-- or maybe some sort of laundry hamper.

* I plan to have a caddy of some sort above the toilet (high enough that it will not interfere with opening the tank for maintenance/repair)

* I will probably attach the toilet paper holder to the side of the vanity

* I need to figure out a plumbing configuration for the DWV for the toilet and sink. I saw a few options that I will post pictures of and note the changes that would be required. I am working on some rough sketches of some possible configurations. I will upload them later, but for now, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated (note, the main soil pipe runs from east to west -- the sketch is oriented with north at the top).

(this is the vanity)


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## nealtw

The 2 inches from the wall is for frost protection. If you brig the plumbing thru the cabinet from the floor you save the two inches.


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> The 2 inches from the wall is for frost protection. If you brig the plumbing thru the cabinet from the floor you save the two inches.



Hmm.. The diagrams I saw showed it being 4" from the side wall, not the back wall. I should have been more specific. The side wall is an internal wall. It doesn't usually freeze here and I was planning to wrap the pipes in something to insulate them as well as put insulation in the wall behind. 

Are you saying I would need to have the plumbing come up from the floor inside the cabinet (in front of the exterior wall)? The vanity has a drawer so that would mean I'd have to bump the vanity forward to avoid having to cut the drawer I mean, I could do that and then have a little shelf behind the vanity so I could put stuff on it.

Let me see if I can find that diagram again that talked about the 4"...
From http://starcraftcustombuilders.com/bath.design.rules.htm#.VGdp1_l4qS7





*Building Code Requirement:
The minimum distance from the centerline of the lavatory to a wall is 15". (IPC 405.3.1)
The minimum distance between a wall and the edge of a free standing or wall-hung lavatory is 4". (IRC R 307.2)*

But when I scoured my state's plumbing code, I didn't find the bit about free standing or wall-hung lavatories and nothing about the 4".

Edit: I realize that the 4" is building code and not plumbing code-- but you'd think that something involving fixture placements from building code would be referenced in the plumbing code. My state's plumbing code specifically said "lavatory" and cited the 15" from center. Does that mean it doesn't use the building code?


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## nealtw

Sorry I gt that wrong. I would go with a vanity that went right to the corner, a 24" box set 3" from the wall with a filler to match the box and the counter top covers to the corner.
Then you have 15" min 27" top and a space for the plumbing too.


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## slownsteady

There is some advantage to running the pipes up the inside wall, if you live in an area prone to cold weather. Not much harder to plumb from the side as it is to plumb from the back. But the back of the vanity is usually easier to get through.


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## nealtw

like this.............


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## zannej

Thanks guys. I already have the vanity (the one I showed in pics awhile back)

I would essentially end up with something like this (except the wall is straight so the toilet would be next to the shower instead of bumped back with wall on the side)




Note how the sink overhangs the vanity. The one I have is completely open at the back (except for the part with the drawer). So I could bump it forward enough to have the water supply lines inside the house in front of the wall and then put up some sort of trim on the sides to cover the gap between the wall and the vanity. I'd have a little shelf behind at the same level as the ridge at the back of the sink to have a little shelf (because having stuff fall behind would not be cool). I'm also thinking of building up a little box on the wall to hold the medicine cabinet (which is designed to fit between the studs) so I can have more room for insulation in the wall).
The good news is, it does not get below freezing here very often. The coldest it gets is in the 20s. 

I'm trying to work out the plumbing layout now. I made a sloppy mockup that my brother joked looked like a weather chart with all of the colors. I know it needs changes-- I'll probably need combo tee wyes or have to add bends. I will just have to dry fit things to figure out angles and such.

I still want to have the vents inside the exterior wall.





That layout was based somewhat on this pic:





I have another one where the lines run separately to the main soil pipe instead of merging. 

I saw this diagram for a toilet hookup and am wondering if it is ok





Should this last one have a 3" tee before the bend and then have fittings to make it go up at an angle to reach inside the wall and then go straight up?


----------



## frodo

https://33.media.tumblr.com/103f97767444aea8f8c77c4ff0dd211e/tumblr_nevgraIXKf1qkwd9ao1_400.jpg


this image is not legal,  use a


----------



## nealtw

I wouldn't use that vanity, it is cute but small, works good in narrow spots but you do have room for a square box and a nice sink.
Most lumber yards and plumbing supply stores have someone that can help draw up a scetch of the layout of the pipes.


----------



## zannej

*Frodo*, thank you. I didn't think that one was legal, so I wanted to ask about it.

Is it not legal because of the wye? I read somewhere that a wye like that can restrict the airflow when used like that. I was thinking a sanitee would be better. I'm trying to picture how that would work... Would I have the closet bend like in the first picture but have it go back toward the wall into the 3" end of the inlet and then have the lavatory waste pipe come in from the right side? (I'll try to do a mockup later).

Another picture I saw was this one:





But instead of traveling to the left, I would have it travel to the right and merge with the lavatory drain and then have the merged soil pipe travel to the main soil pipe.

Does it matter which fixture is upstream/downstream if they each have their own vents? I know that some fixtures can siphon water from the traps of others bc of the flow, but is it better to have the sink line come in above the toilet line or below? Or can they pretty much be on the same plane? (preferably without living snakes, because we all know how Samuel L. Jackson feels about that).
I've been trying to find more diagrams for toilet hookups, but most of them seem to be for multi-story homes, or have layouts that don't match up.
This was one I found






*Neal*, I appreciate the advice, but we're pretty much stuck with that vanity. I plan to make use of the walls and add other storage. We want the walking path to be clear.

I wish I could trust the people at the local hardware stores to come up with sketches, but the owner at one gives bad advice and tells people to do things that violate code. The other hardware store is being run by the son of the former owner. His father was a licensed contractor, but he sadly passed away a couple of years back. I've talked to him, and I know more about plumbing than he does. He's a nice guy, but he is still trying to learn the trade so he can be better at running the business. I don't trust the big box stores at all because the competency/knowledge levels of the employees is inconsistent.

I got bored while it was raining (internet was out) and did a couple more sketches.
This one is completely not to scale and I suck with angles, proportion, and perspective... But its a general idea of how I imagine it to look. Just hope there's room for all of it (probably won't be, but I'll do some measuring when I can actually get down the hallway-- my brother just opened his door and shoved laundry and trash into the hallway so I can't get through).




(I know the towel ring sucks, but I forgot it at first and just slapped together a craptastic one)

Here is the overall layout (I know I didn't have the vanity bumped forward for either drawing bc I was too lazy to draw it in)





(I fudged on the size of the toiletpaper and towel bar/ring because I didn't feel like measuring to do the size to scale)


----------



## nealtw

I went and had a look at your measurements, it looks like you have something like 5x9 then I went and looked at mine.
The rough in was set in concrete so I just went with it for the tub and toilet just like you have. 15" from center of toilet to tub so I set the vanity at the same spacing.
For the vanity I had a 32" box left over from the kitchen so it is finished out at the counter at 24" from the wall. I put a spacer on the side to make it to the side wall but set it back some and the counter angles over to the side wall to allow for door opening. I have all that in 8'6" and there is no feeling of small bathroom, there is plenty of room.


----------



## nealtw

The toilet flange may have to move a little depending on floor joists, angle flanges are availibe to get things closer.


----------



## zannej

Thanks, Neal. I think its closer to 8'x5' I think.. Its like 94.5" x 61".
The lavatory is 26" wide and I think 17" deep.

I want to have the toilet as far as I can get it from the tub but still have a decent distance from the vanity. I'm glad you mentioned the joists. I'll have to check the positions to make sure it lines up without interference. It would be nice if the wall studs were over the joists so it would be easier to find them-- but I doubt that is the case. I'll have to see if I can figure out where they are without climbing under the house.

Thank you for mentioning the joists. I had completely forgotten about that.

The good news is, I'm pretty sure the standpipe is far enough away, the bad news is, I will have to figure out how to vent it. Might have to go through the attic. I need to get a ladder tall enough. I underestimated the height and got a ladder that was too short.


----------



## nealtw

Ya, somehow I added 3 and 5 and got 9:rofl:
The studs should be above the joists but sometime it just dosn't work out that way and some framers don't even try.
If you have venting now, any chance you can just use that, I don't know the rules on distance.


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> Ya, somehow I added 3 and 5 and got 9:rofl:
> The studs should be above the joists but sometime it just dosn't work out that way and some framers don't even try.
> If you have venting now, any chance you can just use that, I don't know the rules on distance.



LOL. Don't worry. Math is not my best subject. I went to a really awful public school for awhile that had the worst math teachers. 

There is currently only one vent (the one attached to the toilet). None of the other fixtures are vented (well, the washer was set up to vent through the lavatory but that is just plain stupid).

To use that vent I would have to route the vent pipe for the toilet (after the lavatory drain merged with it) through the attic. I think its at least a 6' run so it would have to go up about 1 1/2". It would take much less pipe if I just put it out through the exterior wall and routed it around the soffit and up above the roof (which is how the auxiliary vents are done on this house).


----------



## frodo

try this drawing,  this is about the simplest way i know to plumb a bathroom..



its a little more work,, but if you have a joist in the way,  cut the joist completely out.  and head it off

then drill thru the header,  to install the plumbing

a offset closet collar is a F___up fixer,  and you get what you get when you go that route

they are legal,  they have there place. as a last resort


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> try this drawing,  this is about the simplest way i know to plumb a bathroom..
> 
> 
> 
> its a little more work,, but if you have a joist in the way,  cut the joist completely out.  and head it off
> 
> then drill thru the header,  to install the plumbing
> 
> a offset closet collar is a F___up fixer,  and you get what you get when you go that route
> 
> they are legal,  they have there place. as a last resort



Doubling the joists and blocks is most important when cutting a joist in the bathroom, Thewn itr can be just as easy to remove that joist and run a new one on each side of the flange.


----------



## frodo

nice drawing!   

Thats zackly what i was mumbling bout!!


----------



## frodo

zannej said:


> *Frodo*, thank you. I didn't think that one was legal, so I wanted to ask about it.
> 
> Is it not legal because of the wye? I read somewhere that a wye like that can restrict the airflow when used like that. I was thinking a sanitee would be better. I'm trying to picture how that would work... Would I have the closet bend like in the first picture but have it go back toward the wall into the 3" end of the inlet and then have the lavatory waste pipe come in from the right side? (I'll try to do a mockup later).
> 
> Another picture I saw was this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But instead of traveling to the left, I would have it travel to the right and merge with the lavatory drain and then have the merged soil pipe travel to the main soil pipe.
> 
> Does it matter which fixture is upstream/downstream if they each have their own vents? I know that some fixtures can siphon water from the traps of others bc of the flow, but is it better to have the sink line come in above the toilet line or below? Or can they pretty much be on the same plane? (preferably without living snakes, because we all know how Samuel L. Jackson feels about that).
> I've been trying to find more diagrams for toilet hookups, but most of them seem to be for multi-story homes, or have layouts that don't match up.
> This was one I found
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Neal*, I appreciate the advice, but we're pretty much stuck with that vanity. I plan to make use of the walls and add other storage. We want the walking path to be clear.
> 
> I wish I could trust the people at the local hardware stores to come up with sketches, but the owner at one gives bad advice and tells people to do things that violate code. The other hardware store is being run by the son of the former owner. His father was a licensed contractor, but he sadly passed away a couple of years back. I've talked to him, and I know more about plumbing than he does. He's a nice guy, but he is still trying to learn the trade so he can be better at running the business. I don't trust the big box stores at all because the competency/knowledge levels of the employees is inconsistent.
> 
> I got bored while it was raining (internet was out) and did a couple more sketches.
> This one is completely not to scale and I suck with angles, proportion, and perspective... But its a general idea of how I imagine it to look. Just hope there's room for all of it (probably won't be, but I'll do some measuring when I can actually get down the hallway-- my brother just opened his door and shoved laundry and trash into the hallway so I can't get through).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I know the towel ring sucks, but I forgot it at first and just slapped together a craptastic one)
> 
> Here is the overall layout (I know I didn't have the vanity bumped forward for either drawing bc I was too lazy to draw it in)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I fudged on the size of the toiletpaper and towel bar/ring because I didn't feel like measuring to do the size to scale)





new drawing


----------



## zannej

Thank you very much guys. I'll see if I can locate the studs in the walls and maybe take some painter's tape to stretch out on the walls and mark off key points. That way I'll be able to guesstimate where the joists might be. The good news is, because the house has very thin panels that are nailed in to studs, all I have to do is look for the nails. On one of the walls, the panels don't even go all the way to the top so its just open and I an see the studs (and the main vent).

I have to keep in mind when adjusting the plumbing that I have to also be mindful of the ducting for the AC. I know there is a duct running somewhere above the current bathroom area because there is a vent/light/heat unit. Ok, I don't _know_ but I suspect. I also suspect there is a broken or detached vent somewhere because when the heat is on, I can feel it coming down from the ceiling in one kitchen corner where there is not a vent.

I wish I could find one of those Dickies jumpsuits for women. Only ones I've found are for men and they fit so poorly that I can't lift my arms in them. LOL.

Sorry for rambling. I have to take my little dog to the vet now.


----------



## frodo

list of pvc fittings for the rough in

1    3x2 combination
1      3x2  wye
1    3"  san tee  with 2"  left hand side outlet
1   3"  90
1    4x3  toilet 90
1   2'  p-trap
1  2x 1 1/2  bushing  for ptrap
1  2"  45 
2   2"  90 
1    3x2  bushing   for the 3" tee


for the above  floor
1   2" tee
1  2"  ptrap
1  oatey washer box
2   2"  co tee
1     2x 1 1/2  tee
1  2x 1 1/2x 1 1/2 tee 
1  1 1/2 90


for the vents

tie, the washing machine vent and sink vent into the vent for the toilet,  offset toilet vent  to tie into existing vent


----------



## nealtw

https://covergallsworkwear.com/covergalls/


----------



## slownsteady

Z: are you sure that the drawer goes all the way to the back of the vanity? I would think the Mfr. left room for the plumbing.


----------



## frodo

slownsteady said:


> Z: are you sure that the drawer goes all the way to the back of the vanity? I would think the Mfr. left room for the plumbing.




hA HA HA HA..   I have never seen a manufacture leave room for plumbing
                       they think that stuff gets hooked up by magic.

                       sometimes i get so mad, i want to take the cabinet into the designers office and stuff them in to it!!!!

they put a shelf under the sink!!!   wtf????   hello!!! PTRAP????


----------



## zannej

Thanks Frodo. I'm going to find images of all of the stuff you listed and put it in an image and label it. Pictures help me remember things better for some reason. LOL.

Thanks to the link to the coveralls, Neil. And I'm pretty sure the drawer goes all the way to the back.

Someone on one of the related forums told me a joke that applies to cabinets and plumbing. Here is the gist of it:
Q: Why are cabinets raised off the ground and hard to get in to?
A: The cabinet maker caught the plumber with his wife.

I can't tell you how annoyed I was with the center piece of wood in the middle of the opening under my kitchen sink. It made it too narrow for me to squeeze in comfortably to one side and when I had to reach on either side of it, it blocked my view and got in the way of my head.

This sort of laundry box?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0039Z4FSQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I see different ones. I think the water pipes coming up are CPVC (cold water may be PVC, which I know is not to code). The faucets for the laundry room look metal though.


----------



## frodo

when you install the faucets in the new oatey washing machune box
 do not have the valves looking straight out.  turn then twards the middle on a 45 degree angle.

it makes hooking up the hoses, a lot easier,  and your knuckles do not get skinned turning on the valve  :beer:


----------



## zannej

For the valves, I was looking at http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000JV4VGY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
and http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000JV5X34/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

They only require a quarter turn for on and off.









I just need to figure out what sort of pipes I need to hook them to. I don't think PVC would cut it in this case. I do wonder if the flexible lines like the ones used for toilets would work..


----------



## nealtw

I would do all new piping with pex.


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> I would do all new piping with pex.



I was considering that but there are a couple of issues.
1. There are a LOT of critters around and I've heard that mice, rats, and even bugs sometimes chew through PEX. Since the house is old and not sealed up properly underneath, I'm concerned about mice chewing.
2. I don't know if my plumber has ever used PEX or if he'd be able to install it properly without messing something up. I've heard that things can go wrong if stuff isn't crimped just right-- hell, I don't know if he even has the tools.

Granted, I know that rats could chew through PVC if they really wanted, but thus far they have left it alone. Plus I tend to have extraordinarily bad luck with things, so with my luck, the mice would decide to chew it and there would be a huge leak. We don't use rat poison because last time we did, one of the mice that ate it got eaten by one of our cats and the cat died.

I guess a third issue might be the price. I've heard it can be expensive. If I thought that I could properly do it myself, I would, but I don't want to risk leaks in the walls if I screw up. I've heard the tools to attach the fittings are expensive.


----------



## frodo

i used copper in my walls,  and plastic under the house
 when i plumbed it,  I sweated an adapter on the pipe  before i shoved it thru the floor
then hooked up all from under neith.  3/4 copper to all fixtures,  stubbed out with 1/2

1"  from  the meter to the heater

if your plumber is not familar with pex.  find another plumber


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> i used copper in my walls,  and plastic under the house
> when i plumbed it,  I sweated an adapter on the pipe  before i shoved it thru the floor
> then hooked up all from under neith.  3/4 copper to all fixtures,  stubbed out with 1/2
> 
> 1"  from  the meter to the heater
> 
> if your plumber is not familar with pex.  find another plumber



Oh, I wish I could just easily get a different plumber out here. My problem is there are only 2 licensed residential plumbers in my area and I don't know if either one of them knows about PEX. The one I use works on DWV systems but I've been told that he doesn't sweat pipes. He's the son of my late plumber. The other guy charges $20 more per hour than my current guy. I've been told he sweats pipes and will do water supply stuff but that he won't touch DWV stuff. My friend hired him for some work and the guy basically came out and told him what parts to buy and how to hook everything up, charged a high fee, and left. The DWV guy shops at the less expensive local hardware store with the nicer employees. The other guy shops at the more expensive place with the rude employees (with the owner who gave me stinkeye for pointing out that its a code violation to use a sanitary tee in a horizontal position). I'm in sort of a No Man's Land for services and people have to be sent from other states to do things sometimes. 

Another issue is that I live out in the woods on an unpaved road. People get lost and also some are just afraid to come out here. They expect to hear banjos. You have no idea how many times I've had people decline to come out because its "too far".

I know the water supply lines I want to use for the washer are already plastic (I think CPVC-- I hope CPVC and not PVC). I'm wondering if I can just come up from the floor a bit with some more CPVC and slap on an adapter to have one of those flexible hoses in braided steel..

Like this http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbrande...eel-Washing-Machine-Supply-Line-W48/202257713





Also, if I get the 1/4" turn shutoffs, do you think I still need to turn them slightly to avoid problems?


----------



## frodo

look,  pex is so simple a monkey can do it.  if your not comfortable with that then buy cpvc pipe and cpvc glue
  a whole lot cheaper than the flex hoses[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVvKxlYcYuo#t=42"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVvKxlYcYuo#t=42[/ame]

as far s the washer box valves. slightly tilted in will make then easier to screw the hoses on


----------



## nealtw

Then you might want to look at shark bite fitting, even the monkeys dumb uncle can handle them and they can be taken apart to correct mistakes.
http://www.sharkbite.com/product-category/push-fit/


----------



## zannej

Ok. Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. I'll have to see if my local hardware store carries any of that stuff. If not I'll have to check one of the big box stores. 

I guess there have been improvements to PEX because when I researched it a few years ago, people complained about problems with getting things crimped properly.


----------



## nealtw

Beforepex there was another pipe like it and people had trouble joining the two, and what they missed was that there is a special fitting for doing that. I would go for pex even if I had to buy the crimper for the guy, he would offer to buy it when he is done. Shark bite is fool proof but more expensive.


----------



## slownsteady

Will you be working with a plumber or a handyman? I would think a plumber has his own gear and also his preferences for what materials he works with. For all we know, he could swear by copper.
You might be better off picking your hire by asking him how he would do it. And if you disagree, hire someone else.
One other thought: pex is supposed to be very DIY friendly.


----------



## zannej

Thanks for that info, neil.

slownsteady, I think I'm going to do a little of both. I have a friend who is pretty handy. I have some knowledge on how to do things, unfortunately my physical skills do not match what is in my head. I also plan to ask my plumber some questions and see how much he would charge to do things. I am still hoping to do as much as I can by myself --like taking down the wall panels, taking out old fixtures, removing old floor, installing subfloor, installing moisture barrier, installing vanity, installing vinyl sheet (which I've done before), and installing the toilet (also something I've done before). I may need help with any heavy lifting, so that is where my friend comes in. I've put up wall panels before, and I can do painting if any is needed. 

I was going to say I would ask my brother for help, but he's even worse at DIY stuff than I am. LOL. Although, he might be ok at some demo just from his sheer weight. I'll have him lean on stuff.  He already put a big hole in one of the walls accidentally.

In terms of progress, I talked it over with my mother and she already bought the Oatey washer box and the valves. She said that we should do the work in spring when it won't be too hot or too cold. It's the first time she's actually semi-committed to a timeline. There's a surplus store that should have sheet vinyl-- since it is a rectangular room, it will hopefully be easier than doing the floor in my bathroom.

The thing I'm most concerned about is getting the tub/shower installed properly. So I'll have to do a lot of research on that.

I'm just babbling away... and my cats have captured a rat....


----------



## frodo

do you know what type of tub?  
to install a tub,  you need to putt a ledger board across the back wall,  the board needs to be treated wood. with this board installed, the tub will not rock
it needs to be 4"  shorter than the tub hole on each end.  because of the brace on the tub itself
see attached scribbling


----------



## frodo

you will need to make a cutout in the floor for the drain hook up

typical tub cut out.  is 14 1/2"  from the wall to center of the cut out
 cut out is 6"x 12"


----------



## nealtw

I think you can do it.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3TTfPPVg5k[/ame]


----------



## frodo

I like that tutorial,  one of the best I have seen on sweating copper.
couple of things he missed.  
after you sand your fitting  and pipe end . do not touch it as he was doing.  your fingers have oil on them,  they will contaminate the pipe

another thing.   he said to file the outside of the pipe.after cutting.
if he had not cut the pipe in such a hurry,  or tightened the cutters to much ,  it would not have beveled, and filing would not be necessary.   slow down,  cut slow,  the first time you go around the pipe. go both ways to establish a  "score"
then your cutter wheel will not walk


he also did not wipe his joint after solidering


----------



## slownsteady

good points Frodo. It was the same comments i would have made. I had to smile at the sight of his finished sweat; most plumbers would have laughed, I think. I guess he is more of a video professional than a trades guy.

Wiping the joint with a wet (very damp) rag immediately after soldering cleans up the joint and creates a good, smooth seal.


----------



## zannej

Ok, I finally got to watch both videos. The quick connect thing for PEX seems to be the one I would be comfortable dealing with.

As for sweating pipes.. "fire bad!"   I was ok using a regular soldering iron in electronics class, but I don't even like to get near ovens. LOL. I know my air conditioning guy can sweat pipes (I will probably have him move or extend ducts in the attic for the relocated vent fan). For the most part, I know I already have CPVC in place for a lot of things, so I could probably just use the sharkbite fittings to attach the PEX. One thing I didn't see was how the things are supposed to connect to cpvc and copper. I assume it just slides on? Is any adhesive needed?

Thanks for the info on the tub installation. I knew about the ledgerboard-- did not know it had to be treated lumber. I was not clear on the size of the hole. I've been trying to find videos of installing tubs from scratch where there wasn't one before, but most of them I find involve removing an old tub and replacing it with a shower or new tub.

I'm thinking I will go with a vikrel/acrylic tub because its lighter weight. I'm still trying to settle on a good brand that works with a decent surround. It will be about 60" x 30" with left-hand drain.

I see that Flex Seal now makes a caulk. I wonder if it is any good.

Again, thank you guys so much for the feedback and info.


----------



## frodo

when you install your acrylic tub.  install a ledger board as described,  nail the flange to studs
 pack insulation, under and around the tub.  the acrylic's tend to be a little loud/noisey
the key to having the tub surround kit work.  is the tub MUST be level.  if not, the surround will be cattawhompus

along the flange  BEFORE you set the panel,  100% silicon bead.  then set the panel. screw to studs
insulate the crap out of the wall behind the unit


----------



## inspectorD

frodo said:


> when you install your acrylic tub.  install a ledger board as described,  nail the flange to studs
> pack insulation, under and around the tub.  the acrylic's tend to be a little loud/noisey
> the key to having the tub surround kit work.  is the tub MUST be level.  if not, the surround will be cattawhompus
> 
> along the flange  BEFORE you set the panel,  100% silicon bead.  then set the panel. screw to studs
> insulate the crap out of the wall behind the unit



And a Nice bed of some kind of cement or mortar under the tub, helps to keep the bottom stable. We use structolite which is for under acrylic tubs.
Great Advice, Good luck!!


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> list of pvc fittings for the rough in
> 
> 1    3x2 combination
> 1      3x2  wye
> 1    3"  san tee  with 2"  left hand side outlet
> 1   3"  90
> 1    4x3  toilet 90
> 1   2'  p-trap
> 1  2x 1 1/2  bushing  for ptrap
> 1  2"  45
> 2   2"  90
> 1    3x2  bushing   for the 3" tee
> 
> 
> for the above  floor
> 1   2" tee
> 1  2"  ptrap
> 1  oatey washer box
> 2   2"  co tee
> 1     2x 1 1/2  tee
> 1  2x 1 1/2x 1 1/2 tee
> 1  1 1/2 90
> 
> 
> for the vents
> 
> tie, the washing machine vent and sink vent into the vent for the toilet,  offset toilet vent  to tie into existing vent



Ok, just to make sure I understand you correctly, I posted photos of the stuff with descriptions-- based on what I found when I searched for the items in your list. I did find there was nothing with "outlet" but it had "inlet".
Rough In:






Above Floor:





I didn't know if you meant the short elbows or the long ones so I included pics of both.

Now I'm trying to figure out what each thing hooks to. LOL.

When you said to offset the toilet vent-- did you mean offset it to the east (right)? or do the west (left)? Or a different way?

Thanks for the tips on the tub installation. I was reading that some people use "mud" (I know not actual mud, but building stuff) under the tub. And some talked about using a layer of felt-- I would worry that could get mold if there were any leaks though.

I've been watching 
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql_c8Fa002E[/ame]

Is it just me, or could the guy have created a template with the cardboard box? I mean, I kept thinking he could set the tub on the box, line up the edges of the cardboard with edges of the tub and then mark lines with notes of measurement. Also, I would use screws as well as nails just to be certain that ledgerboard was solid.

I see he used Great Stuff spray foam under the tub. I admit I don't really like that idea. I've used that stuff before and its a pain. I know it expands and all, but it doesn't seem like it would really evenly distribute.. I personally would think about leveling the floor before installing the ledgerboard.

The tub he used looked interesting, but I've never seen that type in my area.

I did take note of how he was making the wall level-- although I do not have a nail gun. 

What do you guys think of the flex seal caulk stuff?

Ok, 100% silicone (any brands recommended)?

InspectorD, thank you for the structolite tip. I'll have to look that up.

I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but I want to make sure I'm understanding everything correctly.

I very much appreciate the replies.


----------



## zannej

I think I might have picked a contender for the tub/shower surround:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/STERLING...Left-Hand-Drain-in-White-61030110-0/202952648

It supposedly does not require caulk. It doesn't have a built-in flange though. This is both the tub and the surround. The surround is one of the few ones that can be cut for a window. The window trim kit is about $162-- which is high, but the entire kit would be less than $770.

I did really like the surround from Menard's but the nearest one is over 2 hours away, I don't trust the delivery services to not break it, and I would still have to get a tub to go with it. Plus it is only 59"W instead of 60"W. 
http://www.menards.com/main/bath/ba...late-and-window-trim-kit/p-1297953-c-5883.htm

A similar surround that is the right size would be nice for my bathroom though. I could slap it up around my cast iron tub.


----------



## nealtw

Vikrell material?? Cheap is fibreglass, better is acrylic, what about that window?


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## frodo

I missed the window,  did not see a window, what window?

something i did. [it was a rental]

i installed a cultured marble tub surround,  the bathroom had a window.  we put a nice curtain in it
 and covered it up.  

LOL   from outside,  window with curtain.  from inside just a cultured marble tub surround


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## zannej

Neal, Vikrel is a composite material patented by Kohler. I believe it has fiberglass, resins, and filler in it; but that it is sturdier than just fiberglass. It tends to have good reviews and people have reported that it has survived house fires.

The particular Sterling wall and tub kit fits together with some sort of locking groove system and the wall kit can be put direct-to-stud instead of requiring some sort of greenboard behind it.

Frodo, there is a window next to where I want to put the tub:





The existing window is about 22" wide. I'm trying to remember the height from the floor-- I believe its about 47" from the floor but I would have to measure again to be sure. It will likely need to be replaced with something that has tempered glass.
I envisioned it looking something like this (only smaller)





(that is the trim kit and wall surround from Menard's that I liked, but I don't live near a Mendard's and I haven't found that kit at other stores that are near me). 

We want to keep the window to have some natural light coming in. Well, "we" meaning my mother. LOL. She was offended at the idea of covering the window.


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## slownsteady

Zannej: I remember from previous posts that you had tight access to the room through the hall. As you pick your tub and surround, make sure it all fits thru the doorways and halls.


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## zannej

slownsteady said:


> Zannej: I remember from previous posts that you had tight access to the room through the hall. As you pick your tub and surround, make sure it all fits thru the doorways and halls.



Thanks. That was one of the reasons why I wanted a modular surround instead of one-piece. The back door is 36" wide and the hallway is about 34" wide. I plan to take down some walls before moving a tub in so there will be some decent space to turn the tub. I want only a 30" wide tub.

The other bathroom will be trickier since the bathroom doorway is only 24" so I will have to make sure the tub is not very tall.

For the 3rd bathroom, I already have a tub in place but just need a surround.

I wonder how much it would cost to have the surround and window kit shipped from Menard's and hope that it arrives undamaged... Or if I should go with the Sterling and get it from HD (that way I can check it at the store to confirm it is not damaged). Fun part will be seeing if it fits in the expedition with the seats folded down. LOL.

I think the Sterling one would require less work to get it in place and I wouldn't have to put up greenboard and glue it up. I think that one would last longer. I'll have to look in to some coupons to see if I can cut any costs.

I'm seriously thinking of using any leftover self-leveling flooring in the tub area to make sure its level before I mess with the ledgerboard and other stuff.


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## frodo

the window in a wet/shower in my opinion is a very bad idea.

water, wood, steam,  condensation,   does not mix,  over time it will rot out the king studs 


just my opinion,


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## slownsteady

Sterling is part of Kohler, FWIW. I don't know what brand Menards carries.


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## frodo

if you want to make mom happy.  remove window

install a  1' x 3'   window  above the shower stall   gives light,  and is high enough for privacy 

also above the wet area.


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## zannej

LOL. Mom is not that easily pleased. She would complain about how that would look on the outside. I intend to get a vinyl curtain to cover the window (they sell large enough ones for like $7 for 2 curtains) on Amazon. I'm thinking of having magnets under the trim and then lining the curtain with magnets to make it stay close to the enclosure and block most of the water. That way the shower spray would not be directly hitting the window. 
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002XQ2LFG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
(its frosted so it gives privacy- a single panel is 45" x 36")

I personally don't like the idea of a window in a shower, but throwing in too many changes may mean the project will not get approval and we'll be stuck with the current situation.


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## nealtw

I think you are stuck between a rock and a hard place, or in your case a brother and a mother.
Any chance you can do away with the shower. It will be a major problem in a year or two and you will be removing tub surround or repairing from the outside, mom will not be pleased.


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## zannej

My brother is actually too large to just take a bath-- he needs a shower. We considered corner showers and other options, but he's too large to be able to move around. Mom wants a shower in there. I've heard some people just put plexiglass over the windows in showers. I wonder if that would work. I have plexiglass down in the workshop.

I know it isn't a perfect solution, but I plan to caulk the daylights out of everything and keep that window as covered as possible.


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## slownsteady

Vinyl window, vinyl trim. Or tile right up to the edges. 
A curtain won't help enough as steam and general moisture issues will get past it. Plexiglass may stop puddling, but moist air is  a challenge, even if you think you have caulked the [email protected]!t out of it.


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## nealtw

Unless you are willing to pull the window and re-install with vinyl and seal properly you won't win, because of the hot shower moisture will find it's way past the old window and then condence in there behind the plexyglass


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## frodo

zannej said:


> LOL. Mom is not that easily pleased. She would complain about how that would look on the outside. I intend to get a vinyl curtain to cover the window (they sell large enough ones for like $7 for 2 curtains) on Amazon. I'm thinking of having magnets under the trim and then lining the curtain with magnets to make it stay close to the enclosure and block most of the water. That way the shower spray would not be directly hitting the window.
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002XQ2LFG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> (its frosted so it gives privacy- a single panel is 45" x 36")
> 
> I personally don't like the idea of a window in a shower, but throwing in too many changes may mean the project will not get approval and we'll be stuck with the current situation.




do what i do with dealing with my wife or my mom.

nod yes, agree with everything they say, then do what you wanted to do.
they do not comprehind, water, steam, ruined wood or wood rot.
all they know is..it looks good. 
sometimes it is easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission.

if you leave a window in a shower,   you will be tearing out that wall within 5 years and replacing everything


to do it the cheap way.  jut cover the window with the tub surround 

jut my opinion


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## zannej

Thanks guys. The current window is metal, but the sill is wood. It's withstood a lot of moisture from the improperly vented laundry room over the years. It got so damp in there that it made the stencils on the ceiling fans sort of bleed/smear.

It's usually pretty humid outside too. I'll have to see if they even make vinyl windows in that size. 

At least I've narrowed down what tub/surround and have a general idea of the plumbing layout. Just have to plan everything out and expect some surprises along the way.

Frodo, I wish it were that simple with her. If things are not done her way she does not let it go. I will never hear the end of it. It makes my arrhythmia act up and gives me a headache. LOL.


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## nealtw

Let's re-visit the tub placement.
Tub where toilet and sink are, a short wall at end of tub with toilet behind it with sink across from toilet, leaving the window between the sink and the toilet.


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## frodo

nix  the tub/shower combo  go with a 36x42 or 36x 48   shower

in the configuration neal suggested


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## slownsteady

> sometimes it is easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission.



Thanks Frodo, words to live by.

Zannej: You may have to educate your mom a little. if you have existing moisture problems, dig into it & show her the results. Pick a particularly nasty spot to make your point.


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## zannej

I've been trying to work on my own bathroom and I at least have picked out a tub/shower for Mom's bathroom. I'll have to keep working on the plans for this bathroom.

Right now my cabinet doors are pissing me off. I used the same size hinges but the doors don't want to fit back on. I'd forgotten that the edges weren't tapered and both doors had to be opened and closed at the same time or else they bumped in to each other. Right now the middle left door doesn't want to fit back on and I'm a bit frustrated. I'm going to have to find the right tools to make the damn things fit. LOL.

I did have a funny moment when I was looking for the hinges and screws. I put them inside a container and I couldn't find it until I realized that my cat was sitting in it. 






Meanwhile his sister was smacking things down onto my head as I was trying to put the doors on.

(The crud all over the floor is from when I had a bunny that I rescued from my cats in there. I had it in a box with some timothy hay and water. Poor thing didn't make it though. And then my cats knocked over the box so they could sleep in it and spilled out the water and hay and then scattered it. I've been too lazy to clean it up just yet).


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## nealtw

Hinges made to the same measurements by different manufactures don't always have the screw holes in the same place. Just check that you may have to plug the old holes so you can mount them in the right place.


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## zannej

The holes were in the same place. In fact, there was a mark on the cabinet where the old hinges had been so I got the hinges to sit over the spot. 

I discovered that part of the problem is that the new hinges are designed to sort of self-close the cabinets or spring them closed and it was making them sit differently when I was trying to attach them (it was sort of pushing away a bit if that makes sense). I ended up using elbows, knees, and feet to hold things in place. I still had trouble with one of the hinges so I found my chisel and chiseled the groove for it a bit deeper (it required a groove on the inside edge). Finally got those damn doors on. LOL. I'm going to take the chisel to the inside edge of the doors where they meet each other and taper them so they don't hit each other when closing. Then I'm going to do another coat of touch-up paint. I think the doors are made of the worst quality plywood that was available at the time. I need to find my wood putty/filler to get rid of some of the saw cuts from when the vanity was originally built. I actually got up and did a happy dance when the damn doors actually fit in. LOL. (I can't remember if I started a thread on this forum about that bathroom project).

Anyway, my mother rejected the idea of the layout change and smaller shower. So, I'm starting to wonder if maybe glass blocks with a vent window would work.. 

I saw this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-Vented-Decora-Pattern-Glass-Block-Window-101891/100061775





I wonder if I could turn it sideways so it is taller than wide... I also wonder how much smaller the block window would have to be than the current window. I think the current one is about 22.75" wide and 34.75"H. I would have the vent window at the very top though. I think they make them that way. I read that they do custom vent positions.

So something like this only smaller





What do you guys think? (and I know you don't like the idea of the window in the shower)

PS. The ceiling turns out to be higher than 8' but is not quite 9' (I couldn't see far enough to see the exact measurement- my eyesight is not the best)


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## nealtw

When you change a window you want to take it right back to framing as often you will find problems that can be repaired from the side you are working on and then you get to install new with most up to date installation method.
The rough opening for your window is likely 2'-0" x 3'-0" the trim would have to be removed so that could be checked for sure. Any window company would call that a standard size. Width always comes first when measuring windows and doors.
I havn't seen a prepared window like you found, we see actual block that is installed like brick and the do use them in showers but I don't no the system for sealing them into the hole.
A regulay glass block has an r value about the same as a double glased window so not much, the big complaint that I hear is privacy.
I did find that people are making trim kits for shower windows, who knew?
http://www.best-bath.com/Accessory/Trim Kits/20/Window Trim Kits


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## slownsteady

If you do take the current window out, and go down to the framing, then you should be able to resize the opening to your liking. Maybe a bit smaller and start it higher up.
I believe the glass blocks are sold separately (individually) and the vent is sized to fit with the blocks. I remember something about a specific mortar for laying those in. You might get more info from a mason supply / stone yard.


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## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> If you do take the current window out, and go down to the framing, then you should be able to resize the opening to your liking. Maybe a bit smaller and start it higher up.
> I believe the glass blocks are sold separately (individually) and the vent is sized to fit with the blocks. I remember something about a specific mortar for laying those in. You might get more info from a mason supply / stone yard.



She won't want to do repairs to the siding and they do sell a framed window like that, first time I have seen it.


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## zannej

Thanks, guys. The glass block windows I'm looking at are sold from HD but the company actually makes them to certain sizes and includes the little vent window. 
I forgot to mention that we don't want to have to change the size of the window as it appears on the outside (because it would involve messing with the exterior trim and siding), but we do want to take out the existing old crappy metal window. I'm pretty sure the glass blocks have a better R value than the current one.

Privacy isn't an issue because the window is on the side of the house facing the barnyard. I don't think anyone would care if the cows looked in. We are also out in the middle of nowhere surrounded by forest. Plenty of privacy.

Neal, the particular shower wall system I want to get is one of the few that works with a designated window trim kit from Sterling.  I think its about $161. Swanstone also has one for around $138. ASB has one around $30 but the reviews for it were not great and people said it was better to just buy a regular generic waterproof window trim kit. I know Sterling will probably insist that their kit is the only option, but from what I've seen of the shapes, its pretty much the same as the other ones out there. I'll have to figure out if the window will stick out above the shower walls. Instead of making thicker walls around the shower, I think I'll use waterproof/vinyl base molding or something like that. Maybe the kind designed to go around doors or something. That will cover the outside flange.

I hope I'm making sense. My mind is jumping all over the place right now.

Edit: I started replying before I saw neal's last reply. You are correct, Neal. I didn't know about the already made glass block windows with a vent until they popped up on my google search for shower window trim kits.


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## nealtw

!/8 glass R value 1.96, double glased and block are about double that. The problem I see with the trim kit is the reach, if it fits tight to the tub suround and it has to reach nice to the face of the window. Which could be different for each make of window or if you have to adjust where you put the tub to fit against tristed studs or? Or if they are built for a 2x6 wall when you have 2x4 walls??


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> !/8 glass R value 1.96, double glased and block are about double that. The problem I see with the trim kit is the reach, if it fits tight to the tub suround and it has to reach nice to the face of the window. Which could be different for each make of window or if you have to adjust where you put the tub to fit against tristed studs or? Or if they are built for a 2x6 wall when you have 2x4 walls??



The different trim kits have different depths in terms of how far into the window sill they go. I will have to go measure the sill later. Its a pain to get back there since my brother just opened his door and shoved all of his trash and laundry out into the hallway and now it is piled up so high its hard to get through. The dryer is currently not working.

I think the Sterling trim kit is 3.75" or 4" deep (different sites gave different depths)
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0015J7ZBW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

The ASB kit is 6" deep.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/ASB-36-in-x-36-in-Window-Trim-Kit-in-White-1TRIM03A/202552111

The Swanstone is 8" deep.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Swanstone-Composite-Window-Trim-Kit-in-White-WK10000-010/100013779

I'll have to check the measurements of the tub surround and figure out how high it would go in comparison to the window.


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## nealtw

With an eight ft ceiling there is only room for a 9" window above a 1 pc tub/shower unit which allows for a header and sill above the window so the tub must be right around 75 or 76 inches high. Forget about measuring that window. A new window will have a flange that nails on the outside sheeting behind the window trim and it is the distance from that flange to thye inside of the window that counts and then you subtract that from the total thickness of the wall including the sheeting behind the siding. And then if the tub suround has a flange to attach to the wall it will only touch the wall for about an inch at the top and depending on built in shapes in the suround measurements could be all over the place. So you best get one with a flat side. I suspect the trim would still want to be big and then be and trimmed to fit to the window.


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> With an eight ft ceiling there is only room for a 9" window above a 1 pc tub/shower unit which allows for a header and sill above the window so the tub must be right around 75 or 76 inches high. Forget about measuring that window. A new window will have a flange that nails on the outside sheeting behind the window trim and it is the distance from that flange to thye inside of the window that counts and then you subtract that from the total thickness of the wall including the sheeting behind the siding. And then if the tub suround has a flange to attach to the wall it will only touch the wall for about an inch at the top and depending on built in shapes in the suround measurements could be all over the place. So you best get one with a flat side. I suspect the trim would still want to be big and then be and trimmed to fit to the window.



Turns out the ceiling is about 8' 8". The window sill (measuring to the deepest part to the window is about 6.5". The window currently extends about 4.5" above the 73.25" height of the surround. So the 36x36x8 swanstone one might be the best fit.

The particular tub surround I selected is designed to accommodate a window, so it is flat. The installation instructions indicated that I should put some kind of backing behind the part that is cut around the window. It didn't indicate depth. I intend to coat the studs in some kind of sealant to keep out water and I will put up insulation and a moisture barrier. The moisture barrier will be tucked under the new window and trim (and taped up the wazoo with appropriate tape).

I still need to try to visualize the glass block window installation thing. Maybe I can find a video. I hope that it can be installed from the inside without having to mess up the outside vinyl trim.


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## nealtw

You can get a window without a flange but you are asking for trouble later on. We can help you deal with the siding with out taking it all off. Just some of it with a cheap zipper tool , it is easy and if you are planning on changing all windows we can make it even easier.


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> You can get a window without a flange but you are asking for trouble later on. We can help you deal with the siding with out taking it all off. Just some of it with a cheap zipper tool , it is easy and if you are planning on changing all windows we can make it even easier.



I have to admit to my ignorance about windows. I know what a flange is, but I don't know if the glass block ones have a flange. Can you recommend any sites or videos that would show more detail on the construction of the windows and what I need to look for? (I'm googling it right now but with the weather its sloooow).

I was trying to look up videos of how to remove windows like the kind I already have, but none of the ones were quite like what I currently have (there were wood windows in wood walls and the only metal ones I saw were in cement walls--and then my internet crapped out on me).

I've seen videos and instructions on how to remove siding. Would I just have to temporarily remove some of it and then put it back? It has some kind of trim around the windows on the outside. I'll have to get pictures of both inside and outside to show you what I'm dealing with.

I'm trying to visualize things, but sometimes things don't always "click" if that makes sense.

I do really appreciate the help and advice.


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## nealtw

Good videos are hard to find but this is how we install windows for the most part
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2VOrk1MuWY[/ame]
If you have wood trim around your windows on the outside, You would just remove that trim to install new windows,
Windows without flanges are screwed in on each side leaving you with holes to be sealed and resealed over time, just another problem to deal with.
If your windows don't have flanges you may find screws to remove on the inside, if they have wood frames they will likely be nailed. remove the trim inside and outside cut the nails with a saws-all or a hacksaw blade.


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## frodo

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-Vented-Decora-Pattern-Glass-Block-Window-101891/100061775?AID=11210757&PID=7104162&SID=skim42682X1149721Xf7c51d03ff782fcb4ad8716e0c043d82&cm_mmc=CJ-_-7104162-_-11210757&cj=true

...................scroll down to info and guides,  the manufacture shows how to install your window


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## zannej

Thanks, Neal and Frodo! I'll have to wait for midnight to watch the video (bandwidth doesn't count against my usage limit from midnight to 5am).

I asked the mfr a few questions thus far. They recommended 
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Pittsbur...s-Block-Window-V2234DC/203521339?N=5yc1vZc9lv

or http://www.homedepot.com/p/Pittsbur...Window-V2234IS/203520248?N=5yc1vZc9lvZ1z0uuzs

They are both the same size (22.25" x 33.5"). They recommended that the rough opening be 1/4" to 1" larger than the window but their next largest window is larger than the rough opening. The size differences are in 2" increments.

Some answers to questions that the mfr posted involving installation:


> There are two ways to install glass block. Mortar or ProVantage (silicone). And there are two ways to anchor glass blocks. Anchors or Channel. For one course/column of glass blocks we would recommend using the anchors. Anchors would be either the ProVantage II or the Mortar II Installation. The easiest of these is the ProVantage II.





> There are two options when installing a GuardWise Window into a wood opening. You can install it the same way as when installing into cmu/masonry, (mortar on the sill and sides and expansion at the top and caulk the top joint), however, once installed, install a trim piece (1/4 round etc.) around the perimeter to secure the window into the opening. Or, befor you apply the mortar, nail a metal tie (brick tie, etc.) to the wood first to give the mortar something to "grab" onto."



I see it mentions measuring as if the frame was already removed. I'm not sure how much will have to be removed. Do you think I should go for the window that is 2" larger than the one they recommended? (I will of course look and take more measurements before ordering anything).

I know that the sill is at least 6" and the glass block window is 3" deep. So there will be a little ledge for some small items. I think I will slather any wood with Killz and then cover it with one of those vinyl window trim kits.

I was thinking of using the silicone product they mentioned. I'll have to find out if it works about the same as the mortar.


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## nealtw

So they are building window for showers and (hold it in with wood) That's not the answer you want.
You will have to take the trim off the inside and measure the opening. I would go with a reg. bath window.


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> So they are building window for showers and (hold it in with wood) That's not the answer you want.
> You will have to take the trim off the inside and measure the opening. I would go with a reg. bath window.



Maybe its because I'm tired, but I'm a bit confused. What do you mean by "reg. bath window"? You mean just a regular vinyl window rather than glass block?

I think holding it in with wood was just one suggestion and I don't know if that was for shower application. I think they were just suggesting using some sort of piece to hold it in. I imagine a vinyl piece of trim could be used to hold it in place. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

The video about wrapping the window looked interesting. I suppose if I pull back the siding a bit and temporarily remove the trim, I can try to put something in like that for the exterior to keep water out. I wonder if that would mean I would need to do something different to give the mortar something to "grab"-- if mortar is what has to be used.

I looked up the provantage system and it uses vinyl channels and silicone. It doesn't look like it would allow for me to make up for the extra space. But maybe if the wood framing is removed it would make the opening large enough for the window that is 2" larger. I'm just not sure how thick the framing is.


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## nealtw

You never know what you will find in older homes but window are usually framed rough to common sizes like 24, 30, 36 etc. And windows that are built for that 23 1/2, 29 1/2, 35 1/2 etc.
Making you rough opening wider would require a change in the length of the header above, so you won't what to do that.
That is why I suggested a reqular off the shelf window with obscure glass.
That system in the video is what we do now, we set the window on plastic horseshoe spacers and the theory is that no matter what you do you will get water around the window, whether from leaks or condensation and they leave a 1/4" gap all around the window and a way for it to drain out at the bottom. If you have wood trim around the old window, you might get away with not opening the siding but if they didn't re and re the trim when the siding was done then you may have to just to repair the house wrap or tar paper around the window.


----------



## zannej

Thanks, Neal. I don't know if the window even has a header. I sort of suspect that it doesn't. I'll have to take a peek under the siding-- and I'll have to get some decent photos of the window from inside and out. 

I know that the windows were not removed when we had the siding and roof re-done. From what I saw of the plumbing and electrical, I'm expecting the window to have some unpleasant hidden surprises. 
Edit: meant paneling not siding. lol.

I've been having a hard time finding any of the standard vinyl windows that actually fit the dimensions of my window. That was why I was looking at the glass block-- it seemed to have more size options. I'll have to keep looking to find something that will fit and then hope that I don't have to mess with the siding at all.


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## nealtw

A header is best inspected from the inside If the outside walls are 2x4s the header is 1/2" away from the drywall and 2x6 walls it will be 2" from the drywall. It may be 2" above the window or 4" below the ceiling, You should be able to find it with a 3" nail.
You keep talking about your window size, you have to get to the rough framing for the right measurements.
The glass block window is limited in sizes to how the block fits in a frame, the standerd window if not off the shelf size, anything can be ordered to fit.


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## frodo

nealtw said:


> A header is best inspected from the inside If the outside walls are 2x4s the header is 1/2" away from the drywall and 2x6 walls it will be 2" from the drywall. It may be 2" above the window or 4" below the ceiling, You should be able to find it with a 3" nail.
> You keep talking about your window size, you have to get to the rough framing for the right measurements.
> The glass block window is limited in sizes to how the block fits in a frame, the standerd window if not off the shelf size, anything can be ordered to fit.




ya'll dont put plywood betweeen your 2x6s  to flush out the header?


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## nealtw

frodo said:


> ya'll dont put plywood betweeen your 2x6s  to flush out the header?  View attachment 7862



Our headers are always 2x10s and are somewhat wet so putting plywood between them is a problem when the wet lumber shrinks and leaves the load on the edge of the plywood.
We never just add stuff to flush them to the interior either as the inspectors and engineers want to see the nails in them.


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## zannej

I meant paneling but typed siding. D'oh. There is only one sheet of drywall in the entire house and it is behind the water heater for some reason. The rest of the walls are very thin wood panels. That exterior wall doesn't have any insulation that I know of. The room used to have different wall panels up but for some reason the tenants destroyed the interior walls so it was just the studs and the plywood on the outside (covered by the old siding). I'll try to get a picture of the window. I keep forgetting to go out and I've been very tired. Everyone who comes to stay in the house complains of fatigue. We don't have any gas powered appliances (we don't even have any gas lines). So it probably isn't carbon monoxide. Not sure what it could be though.


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## slownsteady

zannej said:


> I meant paneling but typed siding. D'oh. There is only one sheet of drywall in the entire house and it is behind the water heater for some reason. The rest of the walls are very thin wood panels. That exterior wall doesn't have any insulation that I know of. The room used to have different wall panels up but for some reason the tenants destroyed the interior walls so it was just the studs and the plywood on the outside (covered by the old siding). I'll try to get a picture of the window. I keep forgetting to go out and I've been very tired. Everyone who comes to stay in the house complains of fatigue. We don't have any gas powered appliances (we don't even have any gas lines). So it probably isn't carbon monoxide. Not sure what it could be though.



Curious. You should get the air tested. Any plants or mines nearby?


----------



## nealtw

Sewer gas. Plumbing venting into house, broken pipe, improper venting and traps siphon out or vents not extending thru roof.


----------



## zannej

No plants or mines. There tend to not be many large rock formations here. Its mostly clay and sandy loam. There used to be a lumber treatment plant but it closed down years ago.

Sewer gases then? That is very probable because the guest bathroom shower does not have a P-trap and the drain for the lavatory (which fell off the wall years ago) serves as the shower's vent. So there are two places where sewer gases could be coming in. Nothing is vented properly in the house but I do run water to fill the P-traps. My closet flange is plugged with a rubber stopper designed for that purpose. I don't smell sewer gas in there, but the guest bathroom often smelled horrible. I think I've become noseblind to it.

I'll have to cover the shower drain and block off the pipe for the lavatory (or maybe pour water in it). 

As I mentioned in another thread, I'm now certain that the aircon ductwork either has holes or is not connected properly because I can feel air blowing fairly strongly from the ceiling when the aircon fan kicks on and I could also feel heat blowing down from one of the upper cabinets where the ceiling tiles fell.

Thanks for the responses!


----------



## nealtw

These guys say it shouldn't get to the level of poison in a house but it sure wouldn't be healthy. The other question is, doese it vent into the attic or outside under the eaves.

http://www.marionohio.us/wpc/sewer_gas


----------



## zannej

The kitchen sink's vent terminates underneath the soffit of the eaves. From what I understand it should have an elbow and run up to protrude at least a couple feet above the roof, but it doesn't.

The guest bathroom toilet vents through the main vent stack that goes out above the roof. The lavatory had no vent at all and the shower (lacking a P-trap) vented through the lavatory. And the shower's line appeared to be very close to the main soil pipe.

Several pages back I have diagrams and pictures showing how the shower has no trap and just has some sort of dark colored T (not even a sanitary one) that branches off to vent through the lavatory.

I wonder if having a septic tank makes the sewer gases worse. I remember that when we first got back we were getting sick from the sewer gas smell in that area. We have a curtain to block off that area and we rarely go back there.


----------



## frodo

all your pictures are gone,  some one hijaked em!!!!


----------



## nealtw

If they are not vented right and you don't use them, then think about just cutting and capping the pipes until you get around to fixing them up for use.


----------



## frodo

the tub with no trap is the reason for the sewer gas,  

a p-trap is a water seal to prevent gas from entering home. the vent, protects the trap from negative pressure, causing the trap to be siphoned dry when fixture is used.

install trap on tub


----------



## slownsteady

Dude, it appears you have one HELLUVA list of fixes on this house. Prioritize, prioritize, prioritize. Safety first (fix the dangerous things like bad electrical), then the shell (keep the weather out), then worry about remodeling.


----------



## frodo

I agree.   pick one thing and do it.  stop jumping around.  you will never get done that way

and buy a camera, so you can post what your doing as you go along. then we can help


----------



## zannej

Ah, I may have to re-do some of the pics that disappeared. I think I might have moved some of the pics to a different folder and will need to figure out which pics were which and put some back up.

My sister gave me the same advice about focusing on one thing at a time. My mother doesn't quite agree on the priorities. She cares more about her convenience first and brushes off the safety issues. I think she's not living fully in reality and thinks if she ignores things, they will go away. Right now she wants me to finish working on my bathroom first. (At least she says that, but then she wants me to do other things) But then she also wants me to be at her beck and call 24/7. We have an intercom system on the phone and she pages me about 20 times a day to do stuff-- I'll start to work on something and she'll page me wanting food or for me to pick something up for her bc she won't get up and walk 5 feet, or she'll just want to tell me about something funny on TV. Doesn't matter what time of day or night it is. She'll just wake me up... (sorry, venting.. Just a little frustrated bc she keeps wrecking my attempts to get on a normal sleep schedule). Also, my brother didn't put the lid back on the trash bin outside so the dogs ripped apart the trash and its all over the porch and lawn and now its all slippery and gross. He's away visiting a friend out-of-state so I'm going to have to clean it all up (at least enough for mom to be able to walk without slipping). I already torqued my back from slipping on some of the crud when I went out to feed the dogs. Ugh.. At least I got the microwave clean and I haven't had to be on clean-up patrol to clean up my brother's messes while he's been gone.

I've got a cellphone camera and can usually upload pics but my internet has been so slow that I am having trouble loading webpages and upload is slower than download (because of satellite internet).


----------



## frodo

http://ccleanerdownload.net/

run this,  it works


----------



## slownsteady

Rant acknowledged. All I can offer here is you need to develop selective hearing, a "yes dear" attitude (often reserved for wives instead of mothers) and reading your brother the riot act....and patience.


----------



## frodo

slownsteady said:


> Rant acknowledged. All I can offer here is you need to develop selective hearing, a "yes dear" attitude (often reserved for wives instead of mothers) and reading your brother the riot act....and patience.



Thats how I do it.    Yes dear, no dear...the whole time I am doing it my way

and your brother..  Brothers do not respond to verbal commands. they are like a dog.  Gab the broom and wack him with it.

Every time he leaves a mess in the kitchen,  Wack Him

after awhile,  1 of 2 things will happen,  he will start to obey
 or he will break your broom
if you dont want to wack him,  put the dirty dish's in his bed

 step 2.  when he fails to take the garbage out.

throw the bag into his room,  DO NOT take it out for him.

whats the age difference between you two?

my brother was 6 years older than me.   I had to wait till I was 16.  before I could whoop him back.

 He was in Vietnam,  got wounded.  we were in the Philippines at Clark AFB.

he was sent to  Clark hospital.  when he got out,  he stayed with us.

He would torment me,  so I turned the gas up on his butane lighter,  burned his mustache 

he chased me around the house, threw the yard, up the street, down the street, till he caught me

then,   He found out lil bro done grew  up!  It was FUN!!


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> Thats how I do it.    Yes dear, no dear...the whole time I am doing it my way
> 
> and your brother..  Brothers do not respond to verbal commands. they are like a dog.  Gab the broom and wack him with it.
> 
> Every time he leaves a mess in the kitchen,  Wack Him
> 
> after awhile,  1 of 2 things will happen,  he will start to obey
> or he will break your broom
> if you dont want to wack him,  put the dirty dish's in his bed
> 
> step 2.  when he fails to take the garbage out.
> 
> throw the bag into his room,  DO NOT take it out for him.
> 
> whats the age difference between you two?
> 
> my brother was 6 years older than me.   I had to wait till I was 16.  before I could whoop him back.
> 
> He was in Vietnam,  got wounded.  we were in the Philippines at Clark AFB.
> 
> he was sent to  Clark hospital.  when he got out,  he stayed with us.
> 
> He would torment me,  so I turned the gas up on his butane lighter,  burned his mustache
> 
> he chased me around the house, threw the yard, up the street, down the street, till he caught me
> 
> then,   He found out lil bro done grew  up!  It was FUN!!



LOL. ON the CCcleaner thing, I actually do maintenance on my computer and clean things out manually from time to time. The slow speed is due to having satellite with bandwidth restriction. If we go over the monthly limit we get throttled and when my sister was visiting, we went over quickly because she never had to deal with bandwidth restrictions and loads videos and such all the time. It was also raining which makes the satellite have to resend data over and over which increases the usage and also slows the internet down. It sends the signal to noise ratio to hell and there are frequent disconnects. AT&T keeps promising they will get U-Verse out here "soon". I hope they are right.

My brother is 4 years younger than me but he's also about a foot taller and outweighs me by about 150lbs. I used to be able to kick his a$$ when we were kids. Now he's got a lot of blubber to protect him. If I do anything to really piss him off, he will retaliate. He would probably piss on my bed if I dumped dishes or trash in his room. Actually, he probably wouldn't notice too much if I dumped trash in his room since his room is so full of trash already. 

Only two things seem to work for getting him to do stuff: 1) when his friends come over and help him and encourage him and 2) when he is not allowed to take the car and go visit friends unless he does something. On the latter, he always does the bare minimum and doesn't actually finish whatever task. He actually got so mad that he wasn't allowed to take the car that he once kicked it and put a large dent in it (but the people at the body shop took the dent out and fixed the paint when they had to replace the door). He learned at an early age if he pitched a big enough fit or kept whining, he would get what he wanted. He tries that with me and I just tell him "no". 

As weird as it sounds, I know much more dysfunctional families, so I actually feel lucky. They are nutcases, but they are my nutcases. and I'm not perfect either. I procrastinate and have very little energy. I need to motivate myself to do more.

I went to do something in my bathroom earlier but my cats have made some of my tools disappear somehow. Unless I cleverly hid them somewhere that was supposed to be easy to find. I do that all the time. LOL.


----------



## frodo

dont let any body kid you.  all families are nuts.  Norman rockwell,  and leave it to Beaver's Mom do not exist.

Andy on andy griffith was pretty cool but does not exist.  

everett the fix it guy was normal. 

lets face it Howard was a total mommas boy.  with homo tendencies.  

I would have not let Claira in my house and aunt Bee liked to take a nip every once in awhile

Thelma was horney,  and barney was not taking care of business

goober and goomer were like a couple buddies i have,  good country folk

Helen had a nice body.

barney...i dont like barney

floyds cool

ottis is my buddy,  earnest t needed his butt kicked,


----------



## havasu

LOL, There ya go again. Now, I have to search re-run TV just to watch that again.


----------



## frodo

my favorite episode  is the freezer  going bad.   andy telling aunt bee to "call the man"  about 22 times.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa1ez7yL_T4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa1ez7yL_T4[/ame]


----------



## slownsteady

So what's the read on Opie? Anything about him going to become a Hollywood director??

Probably best to leave this thread for Zannej' plumbing problems. It's too long to start over. And we can get too sidetracked.


----------



## oldognewtrick

You might say he did well...

http://www.ranker.com/list/ron-howa...ward+movies+list&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IESR02


----------



## zannej

slownsteady said:


> So what's the read on Opie? Anything about him going to become a Hollywood director??
> 
> Probably best to leave this thread for Zannej' plumbing problems. It's too long to start over. And we can get too sidetracked.



LOL. He became an excellent director. I loved the Andy Griffith show. I haven't watched it in a long time though. It was funny seeing Andy playing the straight-laced man instead of the goofy one instead. I remember a movie (something with Sergeant in the title?) where he was the goofy one.

I didn't watch the clip yet, but my thought was "Why can't Andy 'call the man'"? LOL. But then, if Aunt Bee was the one who wanted it fixed, she should have called.

It's ok to digress in here. I digress all the time in other threads.

I don't want to forget about this idea since it gives me hope for the future, but I need to work on my other bathroom project. I don't know if I have a thread on this one for it-- I think it got locked on the plumbing forum. I haven't made much progress on it, so that's understandable.


----------



## oldognewtrick

We can get the thread back on track way before zanne starts doing plumbing stuff...


----------



## frodo

ron howard,    darn god director

zanne,     why dont you make the no-trap tub your next project.   methane gas is dangerous if left to own device's 

the gas can pool in an area.   get rid of the funky smell


----------



## slownsteady

> I remember a movie (something with Sergeant in the title?) where he was the goofy one.



"No Time For Sergeants". it was his big break.


----------



## nealtw

Some other good actors in there too
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2fSw0ua5K0[/ame]


----------



## frodo

enjoy

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m57gzA2JCcM"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m57gzA2JCcM[/ame]


----------



## zannej

On a serious note, I should probably create a thread for the bathroom project I'm currently working on. Not sure which section it should go in though. And I need to fix the images in this thread so they show up.


----------



## frodo

Your about as twisted as I am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## zannej

Oops. Looks like my link got removed. Sorry, admins.

It was to a song about Alice, but I guess the language wasn't appropriate. LOL.

So, what area would be the right place for my current bathroom remodel that I've been procrastinating on and really need to finish?


----------



## frodo

this thread right here.  heck your at 14 pages now,  try to hit 100


----------



## zannej

Ok. I'll have to gather my thoughts when I'm done coughing my lungs out. Hopefully additional pictures will work.


----------



## frodo

I want to see that picture of you dressed head to toe in thick clothes and a mask on your face!!! 


 HILARIOUS !!!!!!!!!!


----------



## zannej

LOL. No pics like that, but there's this one of me in the bunny onesie.


----------



## slownsteady

Better look out for coyotes with that on


----------



## frodo

You aint right!!!!!!


----------



## zannej

I think I'd be more in danger of Elmer Fudd. 

On to the bathroom repair thing, the sewage backed up and busted the wax ring and soaked the floor under the cheap vinyl sheet (the cheap vinyl sheet was put in a few years prior to replace the carpet that was in the bathroom when we moved in).

Discovered that the toilet was installed on top of carpet. No pics of the toilet before it was removed, but got a pic of the remains of the carpet.






When I removed it and the vinyl sheet, the wood underneath was the consistency of mud.





Unfortunately not all of the plywood was like mud and some of it extended under the walls and vanity so I had to chisel it out.





I used some old cardboard boxes, tape, and bought some cheap lipstick (since I don't own any makeup) to use on the flange to transfer the shape/size for a template. I cut out the hole and tested the fit with the cardboard.





(continued)


----------



## zannej

I used the template on some luan (not sure on the spelling)





Then I cut it out with a jigsaw (which went pretty roughly but did the job).





Then I put it in place and screwed it down with countersunk decking screws. I puttied over the screws afterward.





Unfortunately there was a difference in the thickness of the original floor and the new piece. The store didn't have anything that was exactly the same thickness so at first I tried to use wood putty to smooth it over, but that didn't work. So I decided to use self-leveling flooring mix. But I waited too long to use the mix and it had gotten clumps in it. I had a friend helping me and I said that we needed to break the clumps up first and he said it would be fine. He poured the water in and then we tried to spread it.. It came out the consistency of slightly runny chunky peanutbutter. It wouldn't level and then my friend got nagged by his girlfriend so I had to take him home. When I came back, the liquid parts had settled a bit more but there were sharp lumps sticking up. I tried to hammer them down, chisel them out, sand them, etc... but they wouldn't go down. 





(continued again)


----------



## zannej

I thought maybe if I used an underlayment it would dampen the bumps enough for the floor to be OK under the vinyl sheet. After some frustration with the wind and dogs while trying to lay the stuff out with the template and such outside (the only place where I had enough flat surface to lay it out), I got it cut and put it in.





Then ensued the monkey with a football part-- where I fumbled to try to get the template on the vinyl sheet. I screwed it up a bit, but the professional that installed the first vinyl sheet didn't do such a great job either. I had to bring the 12' x 10' roll in by myself (which probably looked like something out of 3 Stooges) and started putting things in place. If the room was just square, it would be ok.. but nooooo, it has all sorts of parts jutting in and out. I managed to screw up one of the edges so its not close enough to the wall. I would have to cover the gap with some sort of trim.













In the last pic you can see the mistake on the righthand side. At the widest point its about an inch off. I don't know if I'll be able to slide the whole sheet over to compensate though.. I'll have to see what I can do.. But the bumpy stuff was still a problem and its not level. I am planning to do another self-leveling job to see if I can fix it. I've been procrastinating on that for awhile now.

Meanwhile, I painted the wall behind where the toilet will go because the paneling got scuffed up. After I do the self-leveling stuff, I will do a final coat and use tape for vinyl sheet to make it stay down. I'm debating whether or not to keep the underlayment to try to keep the floor a tad warmer in winter, but I'm not sure if it makes much of a difference. It feels nice and cushy at least (except for the lumpy part). I also removed the old hardware from the vanity and painted it, but they still need some touch-ups and I will have to put the new hardware on. I want to get the floor leveled before I do the final coat of paint. Then I will add some trim and baseboards.


----------



## nealtw

If you lay your hands on a grinder with a diamond blade you could knock those lumps down.
You won't be the first to us molding and corner cove around a floor.
Can we just call you Bunny now?


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> If you lay your hands on a grinder with a diamond blade you could knock those lumps down.
> You won't be the first to us molding and corner cove around a floor.
> Can we just call you Bunny now?



I'll have to see if I have any grinders around... but the floor still needs to be leveled since the stuff didn't spread evenly. I already bought the new bag of leveling mixture. They no longer carry the type I had before so I had to get a 50lb sack. I need about 10lbs out of it and 5.2 cups of water. A friend of mine helped me break down the cup measurements into TBSP but I'll have to look at my notes to remember what it was.

I need to find a better way to block off the holes and walls this time. I used cardboard with painter's tape last time, but it soaked through and made the cardboard get stuck in some places.

I'll have to wait until this respiratory crud I've got clears up though. I've been coughing so hard I get light-headed.


----------



## nealtw

Duct tape and leave it anywhere you are going to do molding. That will keep the next flood in the room.


----------



## slownsteady

Remember, you only have to grind/chip down the spots that will be above the final level of the floor. The next batch of SLC will fill in the imperfections. If you can't find a grinder, you might have some luck with a cold chisel and a hammer. Place the chisel at a 45 degree angle on the side of the high spot and give it a good hard shot with the hammer. Wear eye protection! (and gloves)


----------



## zannej

I have tried a chisel and hammer but I lack the strength to break the stuff. LOL. I am fairly certain that I have at least one grinder (possibly more) laying around. 

Good idea on the duct tape under molding. 

I'm trying to figure out the best way to deal with the edge near the bathtub because the skirt of the tub is resting on a 1" strip of wood that isn't flush with the tub. It juts out just a little bit in some places.













I also have to fix this-- thanks the crappy former tenants.


----------



## zannej

Oh, and here is a crappy rough sketch of the bathroom layout.


----------



## nealtw

As much has I hate it; for the tub, the crappy vinyl glue on stuff from the 70s


----------



## slownsteady

> I also have to fix this-- thanks the crappy former tenants.



I can't tell what that is......



> I'm trying to figure out the best way to deal with the edge near the bathtub because the skirt of the tub is resting on a 1" strip of wood that isn't flush with the tub. It juts out just a little bit in some places.


I'm sure you can find something in your toolbox that you can use to trim that wood back. I'm not sure why that plywood is even there. Is your tub on good support? Was this a makeshift repair? I would normally suggest that this would be the time to to pull the tub and put in the whole subfloor correctly, but your to-do list is long enough already. Just be sure everything is solid before going forward.


----------



## slownsteady

Get your brother to bang on those high spots.


----------



## zannej

The tenants managed to scrape the porcelain off of the cast iron on the tub. I have a little porcelain repair kit though. I hope it will cover that large of a scrape.

I don't know for sure why they have the wood under the skirt. It's been like that since I moved in-- only they originally had carpet in the bathroom. There is still carpet under the vanity. I couldn't get that crap out, so I'm sealing up the toekick to keep nasty stuff from coming out from underneath there.

My tub feels like it is on good support, so I hope it is.  I'm worried that if I try to chisel at the wood under the tub skirt that I'll end up scraping the porcelain. Maybe I can get a piece of molding that is tall enough to go over and notch it a little to accommodate the difference between the tub surface and the wood underneath and then I can use 100% silicone along the seam at the top and sides.

Why plywood? I have no clue. There are a lot of things in the house where I am like "Why the f--- did they do this?" I was wondering "Why carpet?" That stuff was so incredibly disgusting when we came back and evicted the tenants. They apparently didn't believe in vacuuming or cleaning. All of the carpet had to go.

LOL. Wish I could get my brother to try to take those bumps out. He doesn't do that kind of stuff. He cooks, plays video games, and sometimes carries heavy stuff. He's even more of a monkey with tools than I am. He'd probably end up putting a hole in my wall somehow.


----------



## nealtw

The tub was set on the original floor that has been replaced, likely hardwood which was just as dumb as the carpet.


----------



## zannej

Hmm.. I don't know why it would be a full inch higher than the subfloor though.. I do wonder if maybe they didn't have the floor level enough or something and they used that strip of wood at the front as compensation. Although its possible that they once had hardwood-- I'm not sure though, because the quality of materials used in this place is not that great. I could see that the toilet was once installed where the vanity is now but it was moved at a later date.
The vanity has all sorts of gouges and junk





Apparently they didn't get the wall panels right or the ceiling tiles and had to use wood to cover it.





And then we have this vent thing that won't stay in place (it doesn't even work now)





Despite the negatives, its still a very nice-sized bathroom. I may despise the ceiling, but I've grown to like the wall panels.


----------



## nealtw

We can see you do what you can with what you have, I am impressed with the jobs you take on.


----------



## frodo

you need one of these.   makes a lot of the work you are trying to do easy

new tool


----------



## zannej

Thanks, Neal. I wish I was better at doing stuff and that I had more energy to do things. I need to keep myself motivated.

Thanks, Frodo. That tool would have come in handy when I started this project. I think there is an oscillating attachment for my Matrix- and I have the sander attachment for it. 

Also, I think I'm going to try to putty over those gouges on the vanity. When I'm over this respiratory crud I am going to make myself work on this. And you guys can help me stay motivated (I really appreciate the support).


----------



## zannej

I still haven't gotten around to finishing this as I've had other things to contend with. I had to fix a leaking pipe out back-- it was leaking from the bottom of the shutoff valve. So I replaced that and put a new faucet on (since the old one had broken off).

Then I had to contend with the toilet in Mom's bathroom because it wasn't shutting off. I found a video on how to take apart the flush valve assembly (I'd forgotten since last time). I scraped my knuckles again while pulling the hose off. 

We have so much sediment that its really nasty inside the tank:






I pulled the filter out and it was really disgusting. It had some sort of blue crud that was like flakes of plastic. Not sure WTF it is or how it got in there-- unless it was on those stupid snake oil magnetic things my mother put in there because she got them from a catalog that said they would reduce the sediment in the water....





I scrubbed that sucker with a toothbrush. The next pic is from before I fully scrubbed it-- I took the time to really clear out the pockets and such, but I forgot to get a picture after and I'm not taking that thing apart to get a picture.





My mother was all saying "I don't want you to fix that one! I want you to replace it" and I really really did not want to have to get on the floor and try to get to the bottom of the tank to remove the water supply and mess with all that crap. I told her to let me at least see if it would work and it did! Woohoo!

Btw, the rubber grippy pad thingies are awesome. I forgot to get a picture of one... But they are great for removing lids or pulling out filters.

Edit: just realized the rubber grippy thing (or part of it) can be seen off to the left in this pic:


----------



## slownsteady

So what's at the top of your _*prioritized*_ list?


----------



## zannej

slownsteady said:


> So what's at the top of your _*prioritized*_ list?



Good question. I need to make a prioritized list. There is just so much to do its overwhelming.

I'm such a procrastinator and I'm mad at myself about it, but I know I need to find motivation and stay motivated.  I also have to keep taking care of other stuff that arises-- like stuff Doofusaurus is supposed to do. 

The toilet running and the broken pipe were urgent things that needed to be fixed because they were going to damage the water pump if I didn't fix them. 

I'm debating whether this takes precedence, or clearing my brother's garbage and laundry out of the hallway to the laundryroom so we can get the dryer serviced-- because I now can't even do my laundry because I can't get back there (although, my brother really should be responsible for cleaning that up, but I know he won't so I will have to do it).


----------



## frodo

I am going to hold my tongue.........


----------



## slownsteady

we need to get your bro married off and out of the house.


----------



## frodo

i it was me,   I would clean the house up.  top to bottom.  throw everything into his bed room.

years ago,   i was working oil field,  i worked 12 to 14 hour days 6 days a week..do not even think about taking a day off!!!!!

so, all my meals,  i ate on the job.

had some shorty shacked up with me.

I came home to a sink full of dirty dish's...I just boxed everything up.threw it in the dumpster

problem solved.

when she protested.  I told her to box her stuff up.  or throw it out the window

her choice..but i am not living like that

as i was putting her stuff in the truck,,,,my next ex was watching from across the road. smiling


anyway,  back on your brother...STOP!!!!!!  PICKING UP AFTER HIS LAZY AZZ!!!!

he will NEVER pick anything up if you do it for him.

kick his chit out of the hall into his room.

dirty dish's...if it was me,  they would be under his blanket,  ontop of his pillow

you said he has COPD?  SO what?   i have copd.  I pick up after my self

do yard work, house wrk,  my work, their work..

he is using it as an excuse. 

rant over!!!!!!


----------



## zannej

Yeah, the reason the house is so bad is because I stopped picking up after him for the most part. The only reason I still do any of it is for safety reasons. Mom has nearly fallen down because of the trash he left on the floor. I have also slipped and hurt my back because of cheese wrappers he just left on the floor. I have to keep certain walkways clear. 

I have thought about dumping stuff in his room, but I'm sure he would retaliate-- and he'd probably break something important in retaliation. He once dumped nasty leaking trash on the carpet in front of my bedroom door because he was mad about something.

The good news is, he just got a job (even if its only part-time and minimum wage). He found out that there is a place that charges only $99 per month rent (including gas and water) for people in a certain income bracket. If he can make enough $ he might be able to get one of those apartments. Then I can laugh at him when he sees the electric bill. He wants to get a car (which he'll need to get to work) but he has no idea how expensive gas and insurance are.

If only I could find him a nice Asian girl who loves to clean and doesn't mind being the breadwinner for the family.... 

He's been making excuses long before he knew he had COPD-- most of his excuses were that he just didn't feel like doing things. I'm beyond frustrated with the situation, but I'm hoping that he'll actually be able to move out. I used to think I wouldn't want him to move out until he was gone for almost a month and it was so much nicer. I'll just have to figure out how to do more of the cooking since my mother won't.

I'm going to have to go outside when the sun comes up to see if I can figure out what the loud crash was that woke me up and scared the crap out of the dogs. I hope nothing is broken out there. Both of the vehicles looked OK at least.


----------



## frodo

I have always found that a fella will get real motivated when 1 of 2 things happen.

those are,  if you do not get up and work,  you will not eat.

the second,  and most important,  if you do not get up and work,  you will sleep on the ground,under the stars

and not in a camp ground.

if their is not a safety net for these 2 things.a fella tends to get busy.

but if he knows,  they are covered,  why bother?    dont have to.  

When you out on your own, no safety net.  for some reason,you get up everymorning,  drag your "Idonwanna" self to work.

do whatcha gotta do. 

I guess yo being female,  your bro thinks he can get away with pouring trash at your door.

My self,  not advocating violence,  but I would buy a nice 10'' cast iron skillet,  and hit him with it.!!!!

Sometimes you just got to get  medieval   on someone to get their attention.

Go coonass on him,  

sew him up in the sheets while he sleeps,  then beat the sheet with a bat till he has a change of attitude  
.


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## zannej

LOL!

Of course, now I have an even bigger problem.. I mentioned in other threads that I heard a loud crash and my dogs wanted in... Found the source of it. My 300 year old live oak tree is dying. The core has rotted and a branch with a huge chunk of the socket (or whatever you call it) that is taller than me broke off. Hit the barnyard fence....









To put it a little in perspective, see how tiny my cow looks compared to the branch?









If our insurance hadn't canceled on us when the timber company's tree fell on our barn, we'd contact them to contribute to get the branch removed. But they decided to lie and cancel under false pretenses so we no longer have insurance. I have no idea how we are going to get that thing out. I've asked my sister to see if her husband knows how to contact the tree surgeons that previously worked on our trees almost 10 years ago.


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## frodo

pick up truck,  a chain,  and a bag of marshmellows  for the bon fire  smores anyone??????

beautiful old tree.


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## zannej

Yeah... We don't have a pickup truck anymore. See that dead branch in the foreground? That one totaled the truck a couple years ago.

I wish I could find those people who buy logs on one of those tv shows.. I'd call them up in a heartbeat and tell them there is plenty of free oak for them.

Gonna have to see if my brother-in-law can find the contact info for the Tree Preservation service we called in almost 10 years ago for prior work.

I hope the tree can be salvaged. I'd hate for it to have to be cut down. The larger tree is in better shape, but I want to have the tree people check it out and do an assessment of the health and trim it up.

Last time they mulched up the branches and spread them around the base of the tree. It looked great.

And I just now realized in the last picture that one of my cows is just on the edge (on the right) looking at the fallen branch-- that was before she and her mother decided it was time to come eat the leaves.

So, my brother is actually in a very good mood and is being helpful today. He's cooking for me right now. He's very happy to have a job and the current manager told him on his first day that he's good enough that he may be able to get a promotion to a management position very soon. Also, minimum wage is about to go up to $9 so he will get more money.

Anyway, he's at least 6'3" tall (possibly taller) and I got him to pose in front of the branches to put things in perspective.
He decided to make funny faces while I took the pictures.


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## frodo

cut it up and sell it for firewood.    with lemons,,,make snapple

at $120.00  per cord,  you have a grand sitting there


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## zannej

The issue will be being able to cut it up. Cut up a smaller chunk and it just about killed the chainsaw. It needs to be repaired now. I wonder if I can get in touch with the local timber company and find out if they want any of the wood in exchange for getting it off my property.

I'd love to find someone who wants to buy some chunks of it. I hope there's some good wood in there after it gets away from the rotten parts.


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## frodo

dull chain on your chain saw? 

i always thought a chain saw blade was a chain saw blade.

so i was buying the generic at ho depo.

till one day,  I was in my local saw shop,  and bought a chain that he had to cut and make

the difference was amazing!!!!!   I get all my chains for him now.

and do not look at that crap in hodepo

little tip on chain saws
1..they do not like gas with ethanol.  
2..  they flood easy,  to unflood,  remove spark plug,  shoot hole with compressed air
3.. run it out of fuel before putting away
same goes for weed eatters


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## frodo

zannej said:


> The issue will be being able to cut it up. Cut up a smaller chunk and it just about killed the chainsaw. It needs to be repaired now. I wonder if I can get in touch with the local timber company and find out if they want any of the wood in exchange for getting it off my property.
> 
> I'd love to find someone who wants to buy some chunks of it. I hope there's some good wood in there after it gets away from the rotten parts.



i would love a chunk of that big boy to put my anvil on  .  nice table


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## zannej

Well, the blade started out sharp, but by the time we cut through the tree trunk (err, ok, my friend was using the chainsaw to cut up a tree that fell on his house) the blade was dull.

The local guy who gets paid to cut up trees had to come back several times with different chainsaws because it was too hard to cut up.

But, the good news is, I got in touch with Bob's Tree Preservation (the company that did work on my trees several years ago) and they are going to come take a look at the situation. I know that they have the equipment and do a good job.

When my friend had his oak tree all cut up in nice pieces, he tried to get people to come get the wood so they could use it, and nobody wanted to take it bc it was too large for them to move. People around here just don't appreciate good wood.

I wish you were nearby, Frodo. You could have as much of that wood as you want. I wonder if one of the local guys still has some sort of log-splitter or something.

I know its wishful thinking, but I really hope that the water oak can be saved. I described the damage to the tree guy and he said the description helped to get an idea of what I was looking out-- it didn't sound hopeful, but he's going to make an appointment to come look.


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## frodo

I do not know if the tree guy is charging you or not.   but,  if you call your county extension office. they will send a guy out to look at it,  e-valuate it,  tell you what to do.  your tax dollahs hard at work for you !!!!!

i called them up to come check out my pinetree beatles and again,  to look at the pond,  lotta lillys i wanted to get rid of without hurting the environment/fish


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## zannej

I don't know if the guy will charge for the consultation, but he did work for us before and cut us a big break on the price (Did a $12k job for around $8k). The owner of the company was concerned for our safety because if either tree fell, it could crush the house. I stressed to this guy that the house was in potential danger and that we'd already lost three vehicles to falling branches.

Dealing with the local / parish municipalities can be a pain. They can't ever do anything quickly-- but I'll have to look and find out who I would contact and how. I'm pretty sure I would end up needing stuff trimmed. The live oak over the house has branches that are scraping the roof, so we need to have it done and my mother seemed to think that I could go up on the roof with a jaw-saw and cut it myself. My balance isn't that great when I'm on level ground. LOL. 

I'll have to see if they can preserve any of the wood enough for it to be useful for something. I'd hate to think of it going to waste. I wonder if any of it will be able to made in to boards somehow.


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## slownsteady

You might try doing a web search on local foresters. That might bring someone interested in the wood. Otherwise it's probably just going to end up as firewood for somebody.

The branches touching the roof are not a good idea. They provide a pathway for squirrels and carpenter ants to get at you house. They also promote algae growth on your shingles.


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## nealtw

You might find a guy with a portable sawmill, up here you can get them to remove it for free as they can sell the wood.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/home...d-a-portable-sawmill-service-zb01303zrob.aspx


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## zannej

I have a metal roof. Had the shingles taken off a loooong time ago. Tree Preservation guy is coming out around 3pm today. I gave him directions because gps is not reliable. It probably would have tried to send him out Reed's Bridge Rd and that road is terrible. I don't think the bridges are safe and trucks aren't allowed to drive on it.

I will as the guy if he knows anyone who might want to buy the wood, or if there can be a discount if they take the wood to sell. I might have them take a look at a tree around back that is growing next to the house. I cut that mofo down when it was a sapling and hacked away the roots as best as I could and it grew back. 

Thanks for the link!

I might see if one of the guys out in my area still has his log-splitter thingy and if he could help with anything. He used to have a dog that would run off and come to our yard at 3am and we would drive the dog home, so he likes us and said to call if we need anything. But I think he sometimes works offshore, so I don't know when he's available.


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## frodo

after turning onto reeds bridge and going over bridge....take a right or left on s river rd?

left to chapel ?  LOL


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## zannej

Heh. The guy said GPS told him to take Reed's bridge, but I told him the road is narrow and the bridges are not safe. Plus his trucks can't drive on them (there is a sign that says "no trucks" and the weight capacity of the bridges is not very high. I don't go out that way so I don't really know which direction.

The GPS sometimes sends people out S River Rd but then tells them to take Old Tram Rd-- which no longer exists.

But he made it and said that the water oak still has a lot of life in it. Its going to be over $3k to trim that one, but the live oak was a concern for him because its heavy on the side hanging over the house. He said that would be over $4k to trim up-- but it needs to be done. Said it would be about $3.5k to remove the tree from the barn and $250 to get rid of the stupid myrtle that thinks its an octopus and keeps growing back. He said those are a pain to remove because you have to cut and then apply a poison right away.

Mom already eliminated the barn from the work list. She was all upset about the price.. The total for all would have been under $12k. But it will be around $7k for just the two trees that are essential. Which is much less than I thought. It's still a large chunk of change. I forgot to ask if he knew anyone who would buy the salvageable lumber. He's going to e-mail me later so I can ask then.


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## oldognewtrick

Uh, get another estimate. Just my :2cents:


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## slownsteady

I had 4 trees taken down last year - 3 oaks & a maple - nothing as ancient as you have, but they were full grown mature trees, and it cost me under a grand. They just cut them down; I took responsibility for cutting, splitting & stacking. My yard was a mess for weeks because i had to move all that wood, but that's what I bargained for.


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## zannej

Well, I think the reason its high is because they are tree preservation people-- but I talked to my brother-in-law, who used to be an arborist, and he said that is actually a fair price for what they charge.

We had a guy who wasn't a pro cut up a branch that fell before and he charged $1k just to pile the wood up where it was still blocking the driveway. He said he wanted another $1k to haul it out of the way, and he stacked it in such a way that we would have needed to rent special equipment to move it. We ended up finding another guy that we paid to move it, but we traded an old tractor we weren't using anymore as part of the payment.

I think the fee includes the cost of having to get special equipment to get over the roof and cut the branches and keep them from falling on top of the house. They also do some treatments to help the health of the tree and then mulch up the small branches and spread them around the trees. So its more than just cutting the trees. Its actually less than what they charged last time to trim both trees and cable/rod the live oak.

If I knew of another reliable arborist, I would ask for a 2nd opinion, but I don't know anyone trustworthy and I'd rather have guys that I know will do the job right than get some loon who might drop a branch on my house.

I do appreciate the advice though.


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## slownsteady

A little sumthin' to psych you up...
https://youtu.be/EObQaWjXLUg

The tree just before this was really cool. They took the entire crown off in one cut. It made me dizzy when the whole top of the tree just started spinning when the cut was complete and the crane held it up.


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## zannej

I'll have to watch it later. I need some cheering up. My bro joked about a car wreck-- which I knew wasn't true, but our best friend actually *was* in a car wreck. We happened to run in to his girlfriend and she was crying and freaking out. All she knew was that he was in an accident and was being taken to another hospital. So we had to find that hospital and get up there and then got to see him. He was stable but unconscious. He woke up while I was there and tried to answer questions, but he was not lucid. He was able to answer a couple of things, but was just too confused and in too much pain. His arm is broken in 10 places, his teeth are broken, and he has a pretty nasty concussion. His head was wrapped in a bandage and his face was covered in blood. The cop that came in to try to find out what happened said he was amazed anyone survived the crash. I'm hoping he will be ok.


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## slownsteady

Well, thank God he's alive. Our best wishes go out to him and his family.


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## nealtw

Yes, hopefully life dosn't change to much for him.


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## zannej

Yeah, I'm pretty worried about him. Got an update: he lost his teeth (probably from steering wheel or airbag-- not sure which) and he had some swelling around his brain so they can't give him pain meds (because those can be problematic with head-swelling). They are continuing to monitor him. I'm guessing they may have to drill a hole if the swelling gets too bad. I'm hoping it won't get to that. He will need surgery on his arm.

Since his family announced on facebook that he was in the hospital, my brother is over guarding his house in case any scumbags think its a good time to go rob the place. When a tree fell on his house, people broke in and stole his air conditioners and stuff. It's not the best neighborhood. I'm really hoping there is no permanent brain damage. And I feel bad that I know he's in pain and will be in a lot of pain later.

I have to agree with his girlfriend-- wish it was an April Fool's joke. The last message he sent me was that if I got the chainsaw fixed, he'd come cut up that tree branch that fell. I don't think he'll be able to hold a fork with that arm for awhile, much less a chainsaw. I just hope it will heal up ok. I was going to bring him some food when he woke up, but he'll be on soft food/liquid diet for awhile, I think. Poor kid. 

Watched the video. Love flight of the valkyries. That is pretty much what they are going to have to do with the branches on my live oak tree. They are right over the roof of the house.


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## zannej

Went to see my friend last night. He was still zonked out after surgery, but around 10pm he started to open his eyes a little. His useless mother made an appearance for a few minutes and brought some of his sisters. The sisters were clearly more concerned. I managed to not punch his mother before she left. The new nurse thought that I was his mother. 
I didn't get to visit him today, but they said he was able to stand up and walk a little bit, but now he's sleeping again. He might be able to come home tomorrow or Monday.

He has a fracture in his c7 vertebrate. Some of his fingers are broken, his arm broke all the way through. Apparently the tire rod on his truck broke and the front end just started swerving out of control. He was trying to get it back under control when the truck flipped over and rolled several times (and rolled more heavily on his side). They had to use the jaws of life to pry him out and then transported him to the hospital in a helicopter.

meanwhile, I'm waiting for an e-mail from the tree preservation people. If I don't get one on Monday I'll call them back.


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## frodo

hope your friend gets better....does he have insurance?

my life flight ride cost 27 thousands dollars,,,it aint cheap


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## zannej

frodo said:


> hope your friend gets better....does he have insurance?
> 
> my life flight ride cost 27 thousands dollars,,,it aint cheap



Unfortunately he doesn't have medical insurance. I don't know if he will be covered by the vehicle's insurance because the vehicle and the insurance were still in the name of his cousin (who was selling him the vehicle). I admit that I was pretty worried when he said the door fell off of the vehicle and I was concerned that something else would go wrong. I had a bad feeling about that truck and kept thinking he might get in an accident-- but I certainly never thought that the tire rod would break on him. The car insurance probably won't cover him because he wasn't specifically named on the insurance. Poor guy had just gotten caught up on all of his bills and was finally getting ahead of his finances for a change.


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## frodo

have his family contact the hosp.bill dept  ask about medicare/caid....if if qualifies for medicare
 tell him to pay the deductibles.  at $1.00 per mth to keep the lawyers away


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## zannej

I think he used to be on medicare/medicaid but they took him off it for some reason. Or maybe that was his girlfriend and kids who are on it... Not sure. 

My brother seems to think that he's on the car insurance policy, but I don't know. His great uncle and cousin are going to try to salvage parts from the vehicle to sell to see if they can get any money for him. So I'm sort of guessing that the insurance isn't wanting to cover it.

My friend finally woke up and was able to walk a little. His last memory before waking up yesterday was getting into the truck. So he doesn't remember the things he said and what people said to him for the last few days. He might get to go home later today.

Meanwhile, a friend's kitty just had a litter of kittens.






My brother called dibs on one of the white ones. He's naming it Cracker.


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## zannej

In the ongoing saga of farm life, the wire linking the compressor pump (with pulley wheels that pumps water into the holding tank of my water well) to the float valve in the holding tank got fried from surges during power outages. So the pump wasn't turning on and the tank was empty-- but the jet pump was going crazy trying to find water to push and wouldn't shut off. I flipped the breaker on it until the pump guy could take a look and figure out what was wrong. He fixed the wire and water was working fine. 
A few hours later the tank was full, but it didn't trigger pump#1 to shut off so it just kept going and overflowed the tank. Pump#2 wasn't running for some reason (possibly if the holding tank filled and it overflowed it might have triggered a safety feature to shut off, but I don't know).
So, I currently have no running water. Pump guy is coming back tomorrow to look at it. I was just mentioning something to him about getting a different thing to measure the water level instead of that old faulty float (which tends to stick sometimes). I was previously told about something called a solenoid valve. Mentioned it to my guy and he said its what they use in commercial places. Not sure how it would work if set up... But I just want my water back on so I can flush my toilet, give the dog a bath, and take a shower.


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## zannej

I figured I'd update this thread. 

Something with the wiring to the float valve wasn't done right so it wasn't detecting that the holding tank was full so it overflowed and then the pressure sensor thing on the jet pump was triggered to shut it off so it wasn't pumping water out to the house. This time the pump guy checked to make sure that the sensor worked and stopped filling the tank. The faucet I replaced at the back door came in handy because I was able to use that to check the water pressure.

My friend is recovering. He has a metal plate with a bunch of screws holding his upper arm together and has metal pins in his hand that are sticking out. His arm and neck still hurt. I saw the x-rays and his wrist had broken very badly and the bone in his forearm had actually come out of the skin and jabbed his upper arm somehow. They said he had a punctured lung. The whites of his eyes had turned red for a couple weeks but they have returned to normal, but the vision in his left eye has not returned to normal. His crackhead father gained his trust by acting all worried and offering to take care of him and help him out. He was cleaning the floors, washing dishes, and decided to start painting the front door and the trim and such.. But then he stole some of the pain meds and proceeded to steal all of the cash he could find in my friend's desk and stole $1200 worth of electronic equipment. Also stole his tools and phone charging cords. My friend did manage to get him to return one $600 item, but hasn't gotten the other stuff returned yet. 

I never heard back from the tree people and haven't been able to get in touch with them again.

Ever since the problems with the pump, the water pressure has been unstable. I'll go to wash dishes and the water will be running normally then it will stop running for a moment and spurt very hard and knock things out of my hands. There seems to be air in the line, but I'm not sure how its getting in. The water has been running enough that I think air should have been cleared out. The water is also much murkier and I had to put a Brita filter on my bathroom faucet to appease my water-obsessed cat. She was not happy with me when I presented her with a bowl of murky water. She sniffed it, looked up at me, and then pushed the bowl into the sink to dump it (she normally pushes it into the sink when its empty and stands near the bathroom door and yowls until I go refill it for her). She was happy with the filtered water though.

My brother still hasn't taken trash out and he left some bags of trash in the middle of the floor in the front room (which doesn't have any working lights) so I tripped over them in the dark and some of the stuff spilled out because he didn't have the bags closed properly.

Trash has just been spreading all over the kitchen floor and the dog dragged some of it into the hallway. I finally got tired of it and filled up a 33 gallon bag with some of the trash. I need to pick up more of it later, but my arrhythmia started acting up. 

I've been trying to eat less junkfood and smaller portions, but its not easy to change my eating habits. My cholesterol was very high so I'm on statins to reduce it. I need to start incorporating more healthy food into my diet-- more vegetables.

I still haven't worked on my bathroom and I really really need to. I wonder if I could be hypnotized into no longer procrastinating. LOL.

Meanwhile, I can't help but think about the remodel project because I'm a bit OCD about it. I finally found the source of the claims that lavatories had to be 4" from the wall-- it was erroneously labeled as IRC R307.2 but was really from IRC R307.1 up until at least 2006. I found online reference to proposed changes to remove the 4" rule from the diagram since it was not referenced anywhere in text and was not sensible. That means I could have my euro-style vanity at 2" from the side wall (since it is 26" wide and would need 2" to be a full 15" from center). I also discovered that my brother likes brushed nickel finish rather than polished chrome (I like polished chrome-- my mother likes polished brass).
I found a less expensive window trim kit for the shower surround (one that will go up to 8" deep on the sill). I also am considering making my own magnetic storm window to cover the window in the shower when it is in use. If we want to open the window, it could be removed. Basically it would involve using an acrylic sheet and magnetic strips. I could use the kind that are similar to what is used to hold a refrigerator shut that are covered in vinyl. I saw a website that described how to make the windows. I'm seriously considering using that to cover my own bathroom window and adding some sort of frosted stuff to it so I can get rid of my nasty spider-filled blinds. Hell, I'm thinking of using it on my bedroom windows to insulate them better-- but that is a project a long way off. My bedroom windows are huge. Too bad I don't like sunlight. LOL.

Now I'm just babbling... It's been raining all day and I have 6 cats in here with me.


----------



## zannej

Update again:
My friend is doing much better and has returned to work. He got a promotion and was awarded $200 by Autozone because he stayed after work for two hours after closing to help some customers who were in a bind. They sent a long e-mail to corporate and he got a personal thank you (along with a certificate of appreciation and the $) from the president of the company. His left hand is still weaker, but he has more mobility and has been working on his new truck (a 1995 GMC Sierra 1500).

Meanwhile, the new year started off with a bang-- as in a loud crash of my 300-year-old water oak tree falling over and nailing the corner of the roof of the porch, the car port, a fence/gate next to the house and both of our vehicles. They were totaled. Less than two weeks later I was driving in the rental and someone ran a red light and took the front off of the rental and spun it around. No broken bones or cuts, but the seatbelt did a number on my innards and the doctor said it might take 8 weeks to recover. I've been up to my eyeballs in phone calls with insurance companies, rental companies, car dealers, and all that fun stuff. Long story short, I ended up with a second rental vehicle from a different company (since the first one wouldn't let me rent another despite the fact that I was not at fault). That worked out ok though, because Enterprise had a rental place on the auto dealer's lot where we bought our new truck. A 2013 Honda Ridgeline RTL. I'm calling it Ridgey for short. It's not the prettiest vehicle, but it has a trunk in the truck bed, enough space for Mom's walker in the back seat (it's a 4-door crew cab), heated seats, GPS navigation, and a backup camera.

The painkillers I was given don't do jack since genetically I have a high resistance to pain meds and anesthetics. Sitting up, bending over, and moving around too much are no fun. So I've been reclining and playing with google sketchup on my computer.

I am trying to figure out how to get sketchup to let me have better control of angles and sizes when doing the plumbing parts, but it is slow-going and I still need to learn how to use more of the features.

For now, I made some mockups of the current and proposed ideas for the bathroom. I figured I would bump the lavatory out 3" from the side wall to allow elbow clearance and I will put a little shelf on the side to keep stuff from falling. I am considering getting some drawer sliders and making a very slim tall drawer to store bathroom supplies. Because the wall behind the lavatory is an exterior one, I want to bump the lavatory forward a few inches (but I forgot to do that in the diagram and it wouldn't let me move the sucker when I attempted it in sketchup-- I might try again later). That would allow the water supply lines to come up behind the lavatory without having to cut in to the drawer at the bottom-- it would also let me put a little shelf behind it. I would get either a surface-mount medicine cabinet to go above, or try to make one myself.

Since the existing doorway is approximately 34.5" wide, I could probably get a 32" door. I'm still undecided about the swing for it. I don't know if I should move the light switch that is on the right after walking through the doorway and have it on the left when people walk in, or have the door open outward instead of in.

Here is a view with the bedroom wall hidden but bathroom wall up to give an idea of how cramped this is. The hallway is less than 35" wide.




(ignore the lines on the floor, I forgot to delete them after creating the floor) Walls are a thin cheap plywood wood-look paneling but I was lazy and just used orange. Note the tubes in the bottom right. The smaller ones are water supply-- but they are on shutoffs and are capped at the top. The middle one is the drain that is also capped-- but it is not properly hooked to the sewer system. I think it instead goes into a buried french drain.

Bathroom wall hidden, but showing cramped shower





Bathroom and shower walls down. I was too lazy to put in the recessed medicine cabinet above where the lavatory should be- it fell off the wall years ago and left broken pipes and water supplies that are shut off. There is also a small cabinet above the toilet that I was too lazy to put in. I also forgot to put in the light switch for the laundry room. Oh, and the crappy light above the medicine cabinet. I was too lazy to make that. It is hard wired and has a 2-prong plug on it.





Here is my proposed version:




It would have a 30"x60" shower tub, curved double shower rod (so one bar can serve as a towel bar), euro style vanity, surface-mount medicine cabinet, plumbing for washing machine (not shown) would be about where plumbing for original defunct lavatory was-- but bumped over into the wall, dryer would now have direct route for vent out of the house, waterlines for washer could be bumped over to serve the shower/tub, I put a GFCI outlet near the vanity, and I could put the ceiling fan from old laundry room in new laundry room and put a vent/fan/light in the new bathroom and maybe re-use the same face plates and some of the wires (biggest issue would be the ductwork for the bathroom vent).

I should note that the sketch has nicer flooring than is currently there. The sheet vinyl is all torn up and the floor is some sort of old plywood or something. The current laundry room floor is all torn up.
(continued because I think threads only allow 4 pictures per, but I can't recall).


----------



## zannej

Top view of current vs proposed ideas:









I could probably fit a trash can (for lint) between the dryer and the side wall (which has the main vent that I forgot to draw in. I *think* the vent is 2".

I already mentioned the door dilemma. I'm also trying to figure out what to do with the positioning of the tub. The kit I want to get is direct-to-stud and is 30"x60". The walls are >61" apart so that gives me a little bit of space. Not sure if I should bump it over toward the exterior wall or away from it-- if I still have that space left after getting the walls squared out more.

I plan to do more sketches showing the plumbing routes and what I need help with is figuring out where things should connect. I want the most efficient / cost effective routes. Not sure when I'll have that done though.

Any thoughts?

PS. Please excuse the wonky doors. I just slapped them in there and they didn't want to rotate properly.


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## nealtw

I read it all once, just a few thoughts.
A 30" bathroom door is plenty, after you get the tub in there. and change the door to open against the wall. If you have ever been in a room with the door opening the wrong way, well it is silly at best. Move the light switch.
If the room is wider than the tub, strap the wall at one end so the tub fits, after the tub is in strap the rest of the wall and re-drywall it. Use a door frame for a 2x6 wall and cut it to fit the thickness of the wall.
Check the tubs out carefully. they come in many shapes some have an extreme slope so you only get a few inches of water at the back.
When you install the tub, you check all the measurements and attach a 2x4 to the wall for the tub to sit on, we did that and expected it to be right, but the way it was built the tile line is not level, we should have checked that and moved the 2x4 to correct that.


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> I read it all once, just a few thoughts.
> A 30" bathroom door is plenty, after you get the tub in there. and change the door to open against the wall. If you have ever been in a room with the door opening the wrong way, well it is silly at best. Move the light switch.
> If the room is wider than the tub, strap the wall at one end so the tub fits, after the tub is in strap the rest of the wall and re-drywall it. Use a door frame for a 2x6 wall and cut it to fit the thickness of the wall.
> Check the tubs out carefully. they come in many shapes some have an extreme slope so you only get a few inches of water at the back.
> When you install the tub, you check all the measurements and attach a 2x4 to the wall for the tub to sit on, we did that and expected it to be right, but the way it was built the tile line is not level, we should have checked that and moved the 2x4 to correct that.



Thanks. I was thinking of either having the door swinging in or out.  Out leaves more room in the bathroom when walking in. I might make a  cardboard mockup to play around with in the hallway to see what feels  the best. We are going to have to change the wall-switch anyway since we  will put  in a vent fan-- so it will be 3 switches instead of one. I think it  would be best to move that to the wall just to the left of entry. I'm  still leaning toward having a 32" door even if I have to make one  myself-- although 30" would still be better than the current 24" door.

The  shower/tub combo I'm hoping to get is the Sterling Advantage set that  doesn't require drywall behind anything-- but I imagine it probably  wouldn't hurt it if I put something behind one end-- I'm leaning toward  putting something behind the exterior wall end.

I think I will  have the toilet so the center is 17" from the edge of the vanity, which  will give a little extra space-- I think when I measured it would be 17"  on each side if I got a 32" tub, but the tub with the window kit is 30"  so that gives a couple more inches on the other side between tub and  toilet.

I'm thinking of having a double GFCI outlet just in case  my brother wants to plug in more than 2 things at a time. I didn't add  that to the sketch. I did update my sketches (but not uploaded) to have  the triple wall switch moved.

Another issue is figuring out the  height at which to place the laundry box. UPC has height limitations but  from what I recall, IPC does not. However, IRC has rules-- I think  something along the lines of the standpipe being 42" max above the trap.  If max height of the trap from floor is 18" and I stretch it, I could  conceivably let it be 60" above floor (that is, if my info is correct),  but I'm leaning toward around 54" above the floor because that would put  it a little above the washing machine top so we could reach more  easily. 

If it wasn't a code violation, I'd seriously consider  rigging the washer the way it is now and just having it dump water under  the house-- although I would put in a french drain or something.

I'll  have to upload some revised pics later. I keep forgetting to add things  to the sketches and it now takes more than 30 seconds for it to process  when I try to open the edit menu in Sketchup.


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## nealtw

I understand the tub goes against the studs, it it common to strap a wall to make the room fit the tub. No problem getting a 32" door just more door to get around in the room.
Big tubs can be a bear, get it in first, in new house they just move stud from the outside door and clear a path.
I think you can put the washer trap below the floor.


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## frodo

I , put 36'' doors in my house, figure my old butt will be in a wheel chair one day

i want to move your walls around. lol...pretty cool program, do they have pipe and fittings ?


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## nealtw

Start a new google sketchup with just the floor plan. Most of us are used to reading them and they take a lot less computing


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## zannej

Good point, Neal. I think I'll bulk up that exterior wall on the right to make the tub fit and make sure it is filled with insulation. Good idea on the creating a new sketchup thing. I'm half-tempted to see if deleting some of the objects would help. The euro-vanity seems to be what just about killed the program. I need to export it to Milkshape 3D to smooth it out and make it a more cohesive piece. Maybe if it isn't so clunky, it might take up less ram or something.

Frodo, there are some 3D object sets I can buy to do the piping that would probably be better-- but there are also some free sets I downloaded. It doesn't have all of the pieces I need though. And I suck at putting them together. For the most part I've been drawing a circle and then using the push/pull tool to stretch it. I need to figure out if I should have the drains and vents inside the exterior wall or push them out through the wall and have them outside the wall. I'm leaning toward inside and just insulating around/behind them as much as possible and possibly thickening the wall a tad to have more space for insulation. The water supply lines for the lavatory will be inside the room in front of the wall to allow easier access-- and keep them warmer. I will probably have to bump back the existing supply lines toward the wall a little more since I think they are too far in-- but I have to measure.

I wish I knew where the floor joists were. I will have to guesstimate.

If I can get some $, I might be able to afford to hire someone to level the floor and put the tub/shower in.

I will almost definitely have the water supply and hookups for the showerhead and tub spout roughed in by a plumber. I know my friend has done flooring and drywall before so he can help with that part. I need to pry the old floor up and check for rot and try to make the floor more level when putting in the new plywood floors. I might be able to afford getting a new window professionally installed too. I'd also get the ductwork done for the vent  fan-- which would basically be extending the current duct by a few feet. I need to have Cotton check the ductwork anyway-- I think there is a disconnect or leak somewhere. I can feel air blowing from the attic in to the kitchen though the hole in the ceiling.

As for moving walls, the bottom wall (which is hidden in most of the pics) is load bearing. The wall between the bathroom and laundry room has electrical and plumbing in it. The wall between the exterior door and the planned washing room has some electrical in it-- notably it has two light switches-- the opposite wall has the circuit box, so the electrical is right there. There is also an attic access in that hallway, but it doesn't have a ladder.

I thought the ceiling was about 8ft high but I measured and it is just a couple inches shy of 9ft.

Here is a revised version with the door flipped and laundry box added






Another shot showing the bathroom a bit more. I changed the exterior door to be one with a cat door-- which is what we currently have-- although it is just a plain wood door-- we used to have a steel door with that pattern though.





And the current layout with more of the plumbing shown.





I'll have to work on the pipes. The connections will all have to be approximated since I suck at rotating things. LOL. I wonder if Google Layout would be better...


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## slownsteady

Z: you need to clear out some private messages so you can receive new ones....


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## nealtw

The other day you said a gfci for more power, they come in 15 and 20 amp, you will need the twenty for more power but that needs a 20 amp breaker and a #12 wire.
The nine foot ceiling is bonus, when we get that, most times we drop the ceiling to 8 ft that gives you room to join the two plumbing vents in that space and run the bath fan out a side wall with out going in the attic.
You could turn the sink on a 45 in the that corner  with a dead space behind, _*maybe*_ the three in vent could go in that space


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## zannej

Slownsteady, I cleared a bunch of stuff from my inbox/outbox. You can try again now.

Neal, Hmm.. I've seen stuff angled in the corner before in pictures. Not sure how it would look/fit in that situation. It might be awkward, but I could play around with it. Thanks for the info on the breaker and the wire. I'll write that down in my notes.

Where I live it does not often get below freezing. It had only snowed once every 20 years until the last few years when it was colder. I don't know if it usually gets below 20 degrees here. The record low was negative 16 back on Feb 13, 1899. Average lows tend to be around 45 degrees here. Basically, the cold is not too much of an issue. So much so that they don't even sell snow shovels and ice scrapers at the stores here.


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## nealtw

I wasn't thinking about cold I was thinking easier than digging into outside wall and allows you to run water up behind so you would not need the extension box for the sink.


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> I wasn't thinking about cold I was thinking easier than digging into outside wall and allows you to run water up behind so you would not need the extension box for the sink.



Ah! Ok. Thank you. 
I already planned to dig into the exterior wall because it is currently covered with really flimsy ultra-thin wood paneling and there is no insulation behind it. So I plan to take off all the wall panels and put in insulation anyway. From what I recall, it is not against code here to have water supply lines in the wall. I've read that if I keep the pipes against the interior wall and put insulation behind it, the warmth from the room would heat the pipes and insulation would block some of the heat loss.

It's also not just about avoiding putting stuff in the exterior wall so much as I wanted to have a shelf behind the sink so we could put things on it. We will be having to dig in the attic around that area to run the line for GFCI anyway. And I know for a fact that the builders didn't frame out the walls properly and that there are holes in the floors between at least some of the walls. I think they just put the studs directly on joists instead of having a bottom board all the way across. 

But I will see how it looks if I angle the sink. I'm thinking it might be more difficult to get the cuts right for the angles though. I know the walls aren't square. I didn't account for it in my sketch, but the hallway is wider just in front of the back door than it is further in-- by almost a full inch.

If I'm feeling better I'll play around with that in sketchup tomorrow.


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## nealtw

Part of my thinking was when you vent the 3" line up the outside wall if you are on the gable end, you are into more framing up there but if you lower the ceiling you can jog over and put it anywhere.


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> Part of my thinking was when you vent the 3" line up the outside wall if you are on the gable end, you are into more framing up there but if you lower the ceiling you can jog over and put it anywhere.



Dumb question, but will I need a 3" vent? I think my main vent is only 2"-- but I think it was only serving the toilet fixture as the shower vented through the drain of the sink (which had no vent at all) and the washing machine dumps straight under the house instead of connecting to any plumbing as far as I can tell (I did not see a pipe coming down under the house for the washing machine). The utility sink hookup seems to drain to a french drain or something. It's just a total mess.

I still need to figure out the best configuration. I also need to show the way the roof slopes. I really should get a ladder and take some pics of the inside of the attic in that area (or maybe stick my camera up in there with flash on and take a video) to see how much room I have to play with. 

I know it wouldn't look pretty, but I was thinking of having the toilet and lavatory vents just go out the exterior wall and route around the soffit the way some of the other vent pipes do. I still need to fix the kitchen sink vent that terminates under the soffit-- although it has an S-trap so it's a bit wasted anyway. The alternative would be to have all of the vents connect to the existing 2" main vent, but I suspect that 2" is not sufficient. If I were to make that vent 3", then it would have to have the opening in the roof increased and I don't know anyone in the area that I trust to mess with my roof. I do need to have a roofer come out to look at the damage that was done by the tree, but I don't know any roofers since the contractor who installed the metal roof passed away years ago.

I still need to play around with that in sketchup but I need to get a better grasp on how to draw the pipes with it.


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## nealtw

The toilet vent is 3" and if you ran it all the way to the kitchen, it has to run up hill, and if the sink is on the outside wall under the soffit area you won't have enough room in the attic to get it there.
When you find some one to fix you roof have them install the boot and if you are not ready with the plumping just have him cap the pipe above the roof.


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## zannej

Actually, the 2" vent is the one that is currently serving the toilet for the guest bathroom. It is visible in the laundry room wall where there is a gap under the paneling.





That pipe is in the wall between the current bathroom and laundry room (on the laundry side). The wall on the right is the exterior wall. I'll have to draw some more diagrams after I pick my brother up from work. Basically, the current vent would actually be in the way of the overflow plumbing for the tub.

Here's a photo of the pipe coming down from the toilet and how it reduces to a vent with a fernco fitting (sans metal rings) from the sanitary tee.





Actually, I wonder if that vent is even a full 2"...

The kitchen sink doesn't even have a proper vent since it is S-trapped, but they put lipstick on a pig and routed an improper vent around the window and terminating under the soffit.


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## nealtw

Not sure of the vent size needed for the washer and tub but the three for the toilet and sink will fit in the outside wall especially if you are strapping that wall anyway, then you could run the three inch over either below the ceiling or above and change the part going thru the roof to 3" for the laundry room a couple pieces of wood and build  drop to hide the pipe. So the roofer could cut that vent pipe in the attic , adapt to a 3 inch and when you do the plumbing the rest could b changed.


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## frodo

you do not have to have a 3'' vent. 2'' is plenty big


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## nealtw

frodo said:


> you do not have to have a 3'' vent. 2'' is plenty big



For the toilet too? :


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## zannej

I looked at the plumbing code for my state and it showed 2" as being sufficient for a toilet with a 3" drain. Not sure if that would change if I routed the vents for toilet, sink, tub, and washer to the same vent though. But it might be easier to just do the vent for toilet and sink out the exterior wall and around the soffit and then leave just the tub and washing machine on the existing one through the roof. Although, I might want to route through the attic because the vent on the exterior wall will come up near some powerlines and those damn crape mertle trees. I don't want to have leaves and flowers falling in to the vent pipe. I am going to be busy today/tomorrow so I will have to mess with drawings later.


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## frodo

the rule on that is 

the aggregate cross sectional area of which shall not be less than that of the largest required building sewer,

house with a 3'' sewer,  minimum vents would be a 2'' and a 1 1/2''  [with toilet]

or, without toilet,  2- 1 1/2'' vents



your allowed 24 fixture units on a 2'' vent

toilet..3
kitchen sink..2
tub/shower..2
lav..1
washer..2


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## nealtw

zannej said:


> I looked at the plumbing code for my state and it showed 2" as being sufficient for a toilet with a 3" drain. Not sure if that would change if I routed the vents for toilet, sink, tub, and washer to the same vent though. But it might be easier to just do the vent for toilet and sink out the exterior wall and around the soffit and then leave just the tub and washing machine on the existing one through the roof. Although, I might want to route through the attic because the vent on the exterior wall will come up near some powerlines and those damn crape mertle trees. I don't want to have leaves and flowers falling in to the vent pipe. I am going to be busy today/tomorrow so I will have to mess with drawings later.



OK you mentioned the vent going out and around before.
If you don't mind me saying, your redneck is showing.


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## zannej

I'm too lazy to multiquote. Thanks, Frodo! Sounds like the washing machine, sink, tub, and toilet all being on the 2" works. Does that pipe look like a 2"? I think those ceiling tiles are 12" squares.



nealtw said:


> OK you mentioned the vent going out and around before.
> If you don't mind me saying, your redneck is showing.



LOL. How is my redneck showing? (I'm slow today).

I think I'll take some screencaps from sketchup and do some lame line sketches over them in MSPaint to get an idea of the pipe layout. I have different options. I'm going to have to cut off the vent pipe before it gets down to the tub because I think it would be in the way of the overflow AND there wouldn't be enough room for the P-trap to get the necessary 4" arm it will need. I'm just trying to decide if I should have the trap go toward the exterior wall and branch back or have it go toward the interior. I'm worried that the latter will interfere with the water supply lines though. I think I'm going to go for a single lever thingamabob that pivots and pulls out for pressure and temp settings. I'll need to pick the right height for that. Turns out, the shower walls are a bit shorter than I remembered so they will not even go up over the top of the window-- but I can use a waterproof type wall material above. I think the total height of the shower walls will be about 72".

I have to get up early so I will try to mess with this later when I'm not so exhausted. 
http://www.houserepairtalk.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## nealtw

zannej said:


> I'm too lazy to multiquote. Thanks, Frodo! Sounds like the washing machine, sink, tub, and toilet all being on the 2" works. Does that pipe look like a 2"? I think those ceiling tiles are 12" squares.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. How is my redneck showing? (I'm slow today).
> 
> I think I'll take some screencaps from sketchup and do some lame line sketches over them in MSPaint to get an idea of the pipe layout. I have different options. I'm going to have to cut off the vent pipe before it gets down to the tub because I think it would be in the way of the overflow AND there wouldn't be enough room for the P-trap to get the necessary 4" arm it will need. I'm just trying to decide if I should have the trap go toward the exterior wall and branch back or have it go toward the interior. I'm worried that the latter will interfere with the water supply lines though. I think I'm going to go for a single lever thingamabob that pivots and pulls out for pressure and temp settings. I'll need to pick the right height for that. Turns out, the shower walls are a bit shorter than I remembered so they will not even go up over the top of the window-- but I can use a waterproof type wall material above. I think the total height of the shower walls will be about 72".
> 
> I have to get up early so I will try to mess with this later when I'm not so exhausted.
> http://www.houserepairtalk.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/



Just a vent sticking out the side of the house.:trophy:


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## frodo

zanne..just give me a simple,  floor plan,  i will draw your plumbing for you

wth correct pipe sizes marked on the page


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## zannej

frodo said:


> zanne..just give me a simple,  floor plan,  i will draw your plumbing for you
> 
> wth correct pipe sizes marked on the page



Thanks! I'm hoping to work on it soon. Got a cat in my way. Have to be up early again tomorrow and some friends need help transporting a fridge. 

Neal, ah yeah. Plumber did that so he wouldn't have to try to tie in to the main vent. He still left the S-traps though. Mind you, he was in his late 70s when he did the work. He was in his 80s last time he came out here.


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## frodo

...
......................


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## nealtw

Frodo; nice work.

zannej If you want a bigger sink you could use a pocket door, either cut into that wall or just add another wall on the washer side,


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## frodo

.............


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## zannej

Thanks, Frodo. I was hoping to have the laundry plumbing box on the side in an interior wall so it would be easier to access-- plus, I think the location of the vent in your drawing is inside a window. 

Here is a revised floorplan. 





I hope it is clear. I can reference measurements if you need. The center of the tub's drain should be about 14" from the studs. The main vent is about 12" give or take an inch or two from the studs-- I will have to measure later, but it is hard to reach. 

The orange stars are only approximate locations. Currently, the one on the left should have ductwork hooked to it since it is a defunct vent/fan. There is a ceiling fan on the right. I will swap them out.

I considered a pocket door, but it would be a pain to frame out, is more expensive, and would make it more difficult to hang things on that wall. I would like to have a fold-down table on the right wall of the new laundry room.

Neal, I'm happy with the sink I have. It looks larger in person than it does in photos and drawings.

I modified Frodo's sketch to show the main soil pipe in purple.





(assuming I am getting the orientation and such right)

Edit: I could probably knock out more of the wall to the left of the washing machine and leave just a small strip with the existing light switches and then put the box behind the washer, but that would put the waterlines in the exterior wall.

here's a photo of that wall


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## slownsteady

> I considered a pocket door, but it would be a pain to frame out, is more expensive, and would make it more difficult to hang things on that wall.


A bifold door may work if space is tight. You usually see them as louver doors but you can get one that is solid. The louver doors are great for ventilation in a steamy bathroom, but can create awkward situations when company is involved...if you catch my drift:hide:


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## nealtw

Is there room to have the bath door swing out, or is that to close to the bed door.


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## zannej

Neal, I had actually planned for the door to swing out in some of my plans. It would be about a 32" door so it would not interfere with bedroom door. Bedroom door swings in anyway.

I have bifold doors in the front room and hate them. LOL. They are quite old though. Maybe newer ones have better tracks though.

The reason the sink is not in the last image is because it had too many vertices or something and made the program incredibly slow. I need to fix it up in Milkshape and plug it back in to sketchup if I can.


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## nealtw

Bi-fold have not improved in 70 years.:rofl:I would still look at sliding door, the drop down ironing board would not be built in but could still be put on the wall, with a little modifying the door frame for the slider.


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> Bi-fold have not improved in 70 years.:rofl:I would still look at sliding door, the drop down ironing board would not be built in but could still be put on the wall, with a little modifying the door frame for the slider.


I did seriously consider a pocket door or sliding door early on in my design plans. I researched prices, how to install, pros and cons, etc. It was something included in my early drafts of the design for a long time. 

I love the idea and look of pocket doors, but I worry about the sliding mechanism. My closet doors got off track and don't slide well. My sliding glass door is a total pain in the arse to open and close. I just haven't had a good track record (no pun intended) with doors on tracks. 

With my luck, something would go horribly wrong with the mechanism and the door would get stuck and require opening up a wall to fix. Plus it intersects where I was thinking of putting a light switch (although, I could still keep the light switch on the load-bearing wall).

Other than the issue with the tracks-- including the possibility that stuff might be able to get in to the recessed area and block it, it was more expensive and required a higher level of skill for installation. I discussed it with my family and ultimately we decided that a traditional door would be the cheapest and easiest way to go. 

Currently, the door is pretty much already framed out to about 34.5" wide. one part is almost flush against the load-bearing wall, so I would just need to build it out a couple of inches. Since the wall is currently made of crappy paneling, I could probably add a recessed space for the doorknob so it wouldn't hit the wall and bounce out.

I really appreciate the advice!

Frodo, what would you revise in the plumbing plan given the location and orientation of the main soil pipe? (I really appreciate the diagram you provided).
http://www.houserepairtalk.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## nealtw

zannej said:


> I did seriously consider a pocket door or sliding door early on in my design plans. I researched prices, how to install, pros and cons, etc. It was something included in my early drafts of the design for a long time.
> 
> I love the idea and look of pocket doors, but I worry about the sliding mechanism. My closet doors got off track and don't slide well. My sliding glass door is a total pain in the arse to open and close. I just haven't had a good track record (no pun intended) with doors on tracks.
> 
> With my luck, something would go horribly wrong with the mechanism and the door would get stuck and require opening up a wall to fix. Plus it intersects where I was thinking of putting a light switch (although, I could still keep the light switch on the load-bearing wall).
> 
> Other than the issue with the tracks-- including the possibility that stuff might be able to get in to the recessed area and block it, it was more expensive and required a higher level of skill for installation. I discussed it with my family and ultimately we decided that a traditional door would be the cheapest and easiest way to go.
> 
> Currently, the door is pretty much already framed out to about 34.5" wide. one part is almost flush against the load-bearing wall, so I would just need to build it out a couple of inches. Since the wall is currently made of crappy paneling, I could probably add a recessed space for the doorknob so it wouldn't hit the wall and bounce out.


You would like to have the rough opening start at 3" from the other wall to give you room for door trim. You want your opening to be 2" wider than the the door slab so 30" door 32 " rough or 32" door 34" rough.
I would bring yours down to 32" and you get the trim space when done.

On those sliders that don't work, you don't have to take a wall apart.
There is a 1 1/4 x 1/4 trim on each side of the door, remove them on one side and you can remove the door and work on the rollers, usually the problem is just loose screws.


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> You would like to have the rough opening start at 3" from the other wall to give you room for door trim. You want your opening to be 2" wider than the the door slab so 30" door 32 " rough or 32" door 34" rough.
> I would bring yours down to 32" and you get the trim space when done.
> 
> On those sliders that don't work, you don't have to take a wall apart.
> There is a 1 1/4 x 1/4 trim on each side of the door, remove them on one side and you can remove the door and work on the rollers, usually the problem is just loose screws.



I didn't even think about door trim! D'oh! It had crossed my mind what style I would like to get but I didn't plan for it or think about how much space I would need for it. Thank you!

Also, thanks for the info on the sliding door. Was that for fixing things on an exterior slider or on a pocket door?

For just a standard door, I have one or two down at the barn if they can be salvaged. I'll have to see if I can extract them safely and measure them. I also have several hundred board feet of lumber lying around (needs to be planed) so I could build one.

I'm considering something like this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B01719ZC64/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 (if I go with 30")

I was confused about the in-swing direction thing so I had to google it. LOL.

I wonder if I can just make my own door trim and have the side closer to the load bearing wall be slimmer... Or I can just suck it up and reframe at a larger size and go with the 32" or 36" door instead. The 36" door for sale has free shipping and is only a few dollars more. Although, keeping it smaller allows me to have a longer murphy table for folding laundry. But I don't think a few inches of table will make that much of a difference.


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## nealtw

This what gets people in trouble, they show a pre hung door and the width and height are just the slab and left side from where. 


*Hand Orientation	Left Handed
Item Weight	73 pounds
Overall Height	80.0  inches
Overall Width	30.0  inches
Thickness	1.38  inches*


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## nealtw

That was for pocket doors the outside sliders are just windows from the open position they can be lifted out and you can get parts for most.


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> This what gets people in trouble, they show a pre hung door and the width and height are just the slab and left side from where.
> 
> 
> *Hand Orientation    Left Handed
> Item Weight    73 pounds
> Overall Height    80.0  inches
> Overall Width    30.0  inches
> Thickness    1.38  inches*



Maybe it's because I'm a little braindead, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Is it because it includes the doorjamb? (I didn't notice that in the picture the first time and just see it now). Ah, so maybe the door itself is not a full 30" wide?
http://www.houserepairtalk.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

What about this one: http://www.homedepot.com/p/JELD-WEN...rehung-Interior-Door-THDJW137000610/202273376

It shows that the 30" is for the width of the door itself I think. Is that what you were asking about?


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## nealtw

At least Home depot didn't say full height. But they both need rough to be 32 x 82 1/2
No it isn't just smaller because the 1 3/8" is just the door, they are just not smart enough to measure it and get it right. That is how the industry talks about doors but the store should be making it clear to the customer.


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## zannej

Ahh. Yeah. I took the amazon one to mean that was the size of just the door not including the frame because they aren't always accurate with their measurements.
I believe I have over 83" in height for the doorway, but I will have to go back and check my measurements. The video on HD suggested the height be about 82" for an 80" high door. It had a little chart.


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## nealtw

zannej said:


> Ahh. Yeah. I took the amazon one to mean that was the size of just the door not including the frame because they aren't always accurate with their measurements.
> I believe I have over 83" in height for the doorway, but I will have to go back and check my measurements. The video on HD suggested the height be about 82" for an 80" high door. It had a little chart.



As long as you are higher than you need you will be fine, no nails in the top and the molding hides all sins.
Doors go in before floors so they have started making the frames higher to allow for hardwood floors. Usually you can cut a little off the bottom of the frame if needed.


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> As long as you are higher than you need you will be fine, no nails in the top and the molding hides all sins.
> Doors go in before floors so they have started making the frames higher to allow for hardwood floors. Usually you can cut a little off the bottom of the frame if needed.



The videos I saw suggested putting blocks under the frame at the bottom to compensate for the finished height of the floor. Some suggested going with the specific height of the floor while another suggested a full inch. I would probably go with 3/4" to 1" shims. We haven't picked the flooring for the laundry room yet. I have a general idea for the bathroom though-- sheet vinyl that doesn't have to be glued down.


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> ...View attachment 10827
> ......................


What about this?






Alternately, I could run the sink's drain directly to the main line just like the toilet's is done. But it might just be easier to merge it with the toilet's drain. or have the toilet merge near the sink and run to the main line. 

What do you think?


----------



## nealtw

That is what they used to do but with so many different floors, the install these taller ones and then the floor guy comes in and cuts the bottom to fit the floor he is using. The have a neat little saw for that.

The biggest trick to success you already have. Just knowing that is something you have think about.
Remember that checking the floor for level and if you are going to leave exact space for the floor or have the floor down first. If the floor is out of level one side of the frame will have to be cut to fit


----------



## frodo

zannej said:


> What about this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alternately, I could run the sink's drain directly to the main line just like the toilet's is done. But it might just be easier to merge it with the toilet's drain. or have the toilet merge near the sink and run to the main line.
> 
> What do you think?




nothing wrong with that...


----------



## zannej

Good point, neal. I'm pretty sure the floor is not level there. It's going to be "fun" getting everything leveled out. I'm leaning toward the popping the frame up about an inch (if there is room) to leave flex room for the floor-- and if someone ever wants to change the floor later on, it would be easier to have more clearance than to have to cut something.

Thanks, Frodo. I'm trying to pick the best spot for everything to tie in and I know I'll have to end up moving the location of where the current main vent meets the soil pipe because I think the overflow pipe position will conflict with the current vent position. I'll have to do some measuring to figure out just how far from the wall the vent is, but it's hard to reach the spot to measure. Right now I have a guesstimate based on the size of the ceiling tile. I'd say it's from around 11" to 13" from wall to center. The overflow for the tub is 14" from the wall edge. For the P-trap, I'll either have to run it toward exterior wall and up or toward the interior wall. I'm thinking exterior might have less interference, but I'd have to see what it looks like behind that old paneling. I'll have to measure the height of the joists in the attic to figure out at what height the auxiliary vents should meet the main vent and which one will be higher. Does the slope of the vents matter as much so long as they are at least 1/4" slope?

Should I have the 3" combo with cleanout behind the toilet? Or would that just be a bad idea? I'm thinking bad idea. Maybe the cleanout would be up near the tub running perpendicular to the toilet's line? For the toilet, would that be a closet 90? or long sweep 90 at 3"?

I'm trying to think what fittings would be needed for this modified design. I also need to figure out where the hell the kitchen sink's drain ties in and how.


----------



## zannej

Quick question: Is this layout ok under IPC?





I wasn't sure if the wye was allowed there.


----------



## frodo

zannej said:


> Quick question: Is this layout ok under IPC?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't sure if the wye was allowed there.



yes under ipc,  but,  why would you do it that way ?

look at this comparison 




in the picture,  the red round circle, it is a blockage.

in your plumbing, to clear it,  you will have to pull the toilet

the other,  you rod it thru a clean out.


----------



## frodo

zannej said:


> Good point, neal. I'm pretty sure the floor is not level there. It's going to be "fun" getting everything leveled out. I'm leaning toward the popping the frame up about an inch (if there is room) to leave flex room for the floor-- and if someone ever wants to change the floor later on, it would be easier to have more clearance than to have to cut something.
> 
> Thanks, Frodo. I'm trying to pick the best spot for everything to tie in and I know I'll have to end up moving the location of where the current main vent meets the soil pipe because I think the overflow pipe position will conflict with the current vent position. I'll have to do some measuring to figure out just how far from the wall the vent is, but it's hard to reach the spot to measure. Right now I have a guesstimate based on the size of the ceiling tile. I'd say it's from around 11" to 13" from wall to center. The overflow for the tub is 14" from the wall edge. For the P-trap, I'll either have to run it toward exterior wall and up or toward the interior wall. I'm thinking exterior might have less interference, but I'd have to see what it looks like behind that old paneling. I'll have to measure the height of the joists in the attic to figure out at what height the auxiliary vents should meet the main vent and which one will be higher. Does the slope of the vents matter as much so long as they are at least 1/4" slope?
> 
> Should I have the 3" combo with cleanout behind the toilet? Or would that just be a bad idea? I'm thinking bad idea. Maybe the cleanout would be up near the tub running perpendicular to the toilet's line? For the toilet, would that be a closet 90? or long sweep 90 at 3"?
> 
> I'm trying to think what fittings would be needed for this modified design. I also need to figure out where the hell the kitchen sink's drain ties in and how.




you are WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY over thinking this.

you are doing what I call "brain fuking it"  please excuse the crude expression,
clean out needs to be on the big pipe,  thats the toilet.
if you want one at the shower,  good idea.  you simply,  stick a tee
on the pipe. facing into the laundry room


----------



## frodo

i amend my drawing,   moved the sewer line.. to exit by the tub with a clean out


----------



## zannej

Neal, I probably am way overthinking it, but I'd rather over-think than underthink and get it all screwed up-- I mean, I'm hoping that a local plumber would know if my plans were bad, but I don't trust one of them and the other I only me once. Had the latter scheduled to come out but he never showed up.

Thanks Frodo-- so to be clear, I would have a 3" drain with a cleanout and cap from the tub side traveling down and the tub and washing machine would connect to it with combo wyes (or whatever angle necessary to fit hit it and have the right incline), the toilet would have a 4" flange with 4"x3" reducing closet bend to go toward the wall on the right then have a 3" sanitary tee reducing to a 2" for vent at top (probably need a reducing coupling). That vent would go up to the attic after merging with the 2" vent from the lav. 

What fitting would connect the lav drain to the toilet drain line? and would it have a cleanout underneath? Or would that invite sewer spillage from the pressure of the flush?

I considered having the closet bend go toward the lav and merging with the lav's drain underneath where the P-trap tees to the 2" vent. Under LPC, I can have 10' of run before a vent for a 3" pipe.





Would I be able to put a sanitary tee above the closet bend to have a closer vent and just run the bend toward the main soil pipe?

Would a 1/4 bend with low heel inlet be allowed in place of a closet bend? (I'm sort of guessing "no").





I'm not sure I'm quite understanding how the cleanout will work for the toilet. I've been trying to find photo examples that are more in line with my setup, but haven't had much luck so far.


----------



## frodo

the 3'' would connect to the 3'' under the house.  a 3'' line would run



you will have 2 vents, 1 for the tub/washer  and 1 for the terlet/lav

inless you tie them together in the attic

is the toilet/lav wall a outside wall?


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> the 3'' would connect to the 3'' under the house.  a 3'' line would run
> 
> 
> 
> you will have 2 vents, 1 for the tub/washer  and 1 for the terlet/lav
> 
> inless you tie them together in the attic
> 
> is the toilet/lav wall a outside wall?



Affirmative. Toilet/lav are against an exterior wall.

Thanks. I had a brain fart. For some reason I wasn't thinking straight. I was playing around with a diagram that had the toilet line running to meet the lav line, expanding to a 3" and then heading toward the main line. But I'm guessing that would make it still have the cleanout problem.

So, P trap for lav goes in to wall-- I think it's a 1.5" drain so I would adapt it up to 2" and have it go from the twist-on fittings to one that glues on and put that on a 2" tee. 

Now, should I have it with a long sweep and run to the lav's vent inside the wall? Or have it drop down under the house to run it? I'm leaning toward the latter since it won't involve cutting as much wood, but it will make the connections trickier. Lav drain is less than 4ft from center of the toilet so it will be almost an inch drop. So, maybe I should just go through the studs and have the 2" line for lav meet with 3" line for toilet.

Gah. Neal is right, I'm overthinking this. LOL. I'll play around with different setups in sketchup. I wish I had more of the tools for it to make the plumbing planning easier.


----------



## frodo

all you will need for the toilet and lav,  including a clean out are as follows


----------



## zannej

Thanks, Frodo!
That is clearer for me.
I saw this sketch:




But I know that where it continues to go down it should have a cleanout and then redirect toward the main soil pipe. Also, for some reason I think that having the lav line under the toilet line might be a bad idea. I would think the force of the toilet flushing could force stuff up into the lav's drain if there is a clog.




(although, I think you are suggesting just having a bend where the trap arm comes in to the wall and having it travel through the studs?





I was thinking of using the 1/4 bend with low heel inlet at #1 and having a cleanout attached, but the combo wye makes more sense.

This was an earlier sketch of mine (with the idea that the toilet drain would run to the lav drain). Just imagine this with the cleanout under the toilet and lav going to the toilet's line instead.





So, instead of going to 2" at this point, I would go 1.5 long 90 (for the drain) to have it go toward the toilet line and then have a 2x2x1.5" tee where it merges.

Closet fittings makes perfect sense now. I wasn't sure on that. I kept only seeing the 3x4 closet bends available. So, 4" flange, 3x4 bend... got it. Thanks so much!


----------



## frodo

yes,  correct


----------



## frodo

now,  that you have that in your head,  lets make it better.

a "trap arm"  on a sink,  is always the lil SOB that clogs up because of tooth paste, hair, soap etc.

so,,,



lets move the whole thing over behind the sink.  so that their is no ARM

the tee for the toilet,   will just turn it twards the toilet


----------



## nealtw

zannej said:


> Neal, I probably am way overthinking it, but I'd rather over-think than underthink and get it all screwed up



I don't think you are over thinking anything, more people should become their own general contractor so they can spot a mistake before a check is writtin.


----------



## zannej

Thanks guys,

Frodo, that last sketch is so much simpler. I love it! So, my sketch of running toilet to the sink's line is ok then? Do the fittings look about right? I would just have to turn the tee to be the correct angle to meet with the line from the toilet. 

So, I'd still have the 3x4 closet bend, 3" pvc pipe, 3" sanitary tee, 3" wye, cleanout with cap, and the other stuff indicated in my sketch?

Picked up my brother's cold or whatever crud he has so I'm feeling like hell today.


----------



## frodo

zannej said:


> Thanks guys,
> 
> Frodo, that last sketch is so much simpler. I love it! So, my sketch of running toilet to the sink's line is ok then? Do the fittings look about right? I would just have to turn the tee to be the correct angle to meet with the line from the toilet.
> 
> So, I'd still have the 3x4 closet bend, 3" pvc pipe, 3" sanitary tee, 3" wye, cleanout with cap, and the other stuff indicated in my sketch?
> 
> Picked up my brother's cold or whatever crud he has so I'm feeling like hell today.




yes,  everything would be the same,  you would just be moveing the main line over.

that,  is my next question.

look at this , it represents your house,  oriented to N/S E/W




need to know,,which way the existing sewer is routed
in order to figure out how to tie it in to the new.

and,  where da kitchen ?

where is the septic tank ?


----------



## zannej

Oops. I kept meaning to indicate the directions. On the last sketch, what you have as South should be West. The front of my house is to the north and the back is to the south. This bathroom area is on the southeast side of the house. I just keep putting it upside down because I visualize the room as I walk toward it from the North.

Here is a not-to-scale representation of the house that I put together in Sims 3. (ignore the weird boxes-- they were needed to add light to the spaces) Red spots indicate plumbing vents. The bathroom/laundry area is on the southeast corner.






Here is a floorplan I modified and marked some stuff. I would have to find more photos and maybe dig around under the house to figure out where everything ties together. I'll have some general ideas. There are some old pipes lying around that were cut off so they added to the confusion when i was trying to map out the stuff on the west side of the house. (For this sketch I erased the walls for the old bathroom/laundry and marked where some stuff will be put).





The green space is just part of the yard-- there is a decrepid brick pathway and some steps going up to the doors. There used to be a tree there. 

This is a diagram I did of the current plumbing for the laundry/bathroom area. It shows the pipes traveling from east to west.





I have absolutely no clue how/where the kitchen sink ties in and I'm not sure where the other bathrooms tie in to the main line either. I know that the vent for the kitchen sink comes out from under the house on the east side and has a cleanout at the bottom. It then routes up and around the window where it terminates under the soffit.


----------



## frodo

something like that


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> something like that



Frodo, I think I modified the image and re-uploaded it after you looked at it.

I think it runs in a straight line from the vent area out to the septic tank underneath two of the bedrooms. The bathrooms and kitchen sink must have their runs go south to meet with the line somewhere before it goes out.

And even stranger, the vent for the bathrooms comes out on the west side past the bedroom window near the southern end. It is not within 10 feet of the fixtures as near as I can tell.

Edit to add a modified version based on some photos I found on my phone.

The orange is the lavs and they come in high and merge with some sort of y shaped thing with some black fittings (I think) and then go down to a pipe with a cleanout. The toilets are go down to the same pipe via separate wyes (no vents). Still couldn't make out where the kitchen sink tied in. Toilet lines are straighter than in the drawing-- my proportions were way off.





Ok, some photos (they are blurry) This one starts with the line for toilet 1 in the background on the left. Behind it to the left you can barely make out the drain for tub1. Then the Y sort of in the middle in the background is toilet 2 merging with that line. Toilet 1 has a cleanout. In the forefront is a blurry shot of the drain for lav1 with a cleanout to the right. There is another cleanout for the toilet lines lower down.





Cleanout for lav1 line going toward some sort of octopus of pipes





Further south, you see on the right side sort of up is the drain line for lav2-- it seems to have a fernco fitting on it.

Here you can see the lav2 drain with some sort of black 90 and it merges with the octopus with a Y. I'm guessing the stuff behind is from the tubs? I'm really not sure what is going on there. I know one of the larger pipes is not hooked up and is just lying under there.


----------



## zannej

I got a little bored. This is my guess as to what is under there. The octopus says Hi. 





Edit: Ignore the directions. I got them wrong. Top should be east, right should be south, etc.


----------



## zannej

When I was showing the photos of the pipes to my mother, I realized that there are a bunch of sanitees on their backs. /facepalm

From left to right (background first)
* P-trap for my tub. Pipe is strapped up and run seems to angle up (but I'd have to check it with a level). Couldn't see where it went, but I think it merges with the other shower/tub. 
* Toilet drain going to a tee on it's back with a cleanout at what should be the top of the tee.
* Some bends to angle the pipe toward toilet 2.
* Closet bend that comes from inside the wall so I think it is a vent. It goes to the top of a tee on it's back.
* Toilet 2 dropping to sanitee on it's back (the top of which is what I think is a vent-- but I have no idea where the vent goes since there is no cutout in the roof for it). Looks like it then runs to a wye, but I can't see for sure.

In the forefront (left to right)
* Lav 1 drain going to elbow and connecting to a wye with a cleanout. Runs along and has a fernco fitting then hits another wye.
* Lav 2 comes down and has what looks like an ABS elbow. It goes to the aforementioned wye but meets it after a fernco fitting.
*Below that wye appears to be a sanitee on it's back that has a couple foot run terminating in a cleanout.
* Cold water supply line for lav 2 looks like it is sitting on top of one of the sewer pipes on the bottom. It looks like it passes under the fork of a wye.
* The wye on it's back either connects to the line for the tubs or kitchen sink or both. 
* After that wye it sort of gets buried in the dirt and I can't see where it goes, but it must connect to the main sewer pipe from the guest bathroom and then travel west to the septic tank.
*Leftmost view in the last picture there shows a couple of defunct pipes that are no longer connected.

TL : DR? It's a clusterf****

Revised sketch


----------



## frodo

,  i would cut it all out,  redo everything all at one time


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> ,  i would cut it all out,  redo everything all at one time


I agree. It looks like a gut job. I might have to make a separate thread about the best layout for it all since it goes beyond the bathroom/laundry room. I might have to pull the wall panels in my mothers' bathroom when I'm redoing her floor to gain access to add vents. Because I don't know WTF is going on with the vents, but it looks like there aren't any functioning vents. No wonder stuff clogs up so much.
Mom's lavatory is under a window in an exterior wall. That's going to be fun to fix. The wall I would need to open up has some heavy solid wood shelves I'll have to take down-- but we were planning to paint that wall anyway.

Too bad the "easiest" solution isn't really an option.


----------



## frodo

do it the way the girls around here do it.

date a plumber till he is done,  then date a sheet rocker,  framer etc etc


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> do it the way the girls around here do it.
> 
> date a plumber till he is done,  then date a sheet rocker,  framer etc etc


ROTFL!
Sadly, I think I know people who do that. Only plumbers around here are married. No sheetrockers, framers, etc. 

I do have a friend who will do gruntwork for food though... I can buy him all the Popeyes naked chicken strips he wants. I also regularly drive his girlfriend and kids to another town because he's afraid to drive too far after that near-fatal accident. Can't say I blame him.
http://www.houserepairtalk.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## nealtw

Frodo: would you want to upgrade the water lines while you were under there?


----------



## frodo

AHHHHH......sounds like you need to check out the local water hole and find a handy man.

drag him home and chain him to the porch.

wait,,is that a movie ?   chained to the bed with a sledge hammerd foot ?



I would,  looks like it is all old galvinised pipe.

she could buy the pex, fittings, tool,  everything to do it for around $ 350.00-4 hun


----------



## frodo

neal,  it all boils down to money,

$1000.00  +-   would buy material for everything under the house and the water 


I would start by buying the pipe
then fittings
then the pex 

couple hundred here couple hundred there.  then remove and replace everything under the house.

new line from well to the house

if we can get a GOOD sketch,  it would serve as a material list,  with a 95% accuracy

water can be repiped without opening walls.


----------



## nealtw

Yeah, it just looks like they could be in the way of the pvc and if all that is coming out it would be the time to do it.


----------



## slownsteady

If you buy from the bigbox store, you could overstock and then return what you didn't use. Don't forget to have a little extra for waste.


----------



## zannej

I climbed further under there to get a better look. I have good news and bad news.

Good news is that the galvanized pipe is not actually hooked up and it appears all of the water supply lines are PVC/CPVC (pvc for cold, cpvc for hot). I also found out when I think this part of the house was built-- someone wrote 1-22-47 FAT on one of the joists. Also, there is at least one wye fitting instead of a tee.





Now, the bad news:
1. The drain for my tub appears to angle up, a floor joist is illegally notched for it, there doesn't appear to be an overflow hookup, and there is no vent. Edit: It's possible there is an above-floor drain hooked to the overflow. 





2. That line travels south to meet up with the drain from the other shower with a tee. That other shower does not have a vent or overflow and it looks like there is a chunk taken out of part of the pipe or something. The angle looks a bit too steep too me. The one good thing is that it does seem to connect to a wye after some bends.









3. The ground is undermined around some of the supports for the house and I think it goes deeper than the footers (but I'm not sure) so I will need to shore that up or fill it in. And only some of the supports are concrete. A great number of them appear to be large chunks of tree trunk.
Here is just one of the undermined supports
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=7180ae8ed75cb63bd8e897370d5ba421&oe=5764F9A0

4. I still can't see just where the east to west line that goes out to the septic tank is met by the north to south line. I think it is underground.

5. I think there are some electrical wires just draped over stuff under there and I don't know if they are live, but they should be in conduit.


----------



## zannej

Latest diagram from what I could tell. I *think* those are 1/8 bends. I could be wrong. It looks like there is a short one and a long one connecting to a very short straight piece connecting the tub drains to a wye. The dark gray line on the left is the joist that was cut.










The wye for the lavatories looks like this




On a side note, I was told that other than the septic tank stuff, inspectors never bother with this area and the one who came out for the septic tank told me that I would not need permits to remodel out here. That said, I still want to do the job well enough that it would pass inspection if it were inspected.


----------



## frodo

,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## frodo

..................


----------



## frodo

...........


----------



## zannej

Thanks so much, Frodo!
One minor revision because of the location of the main line in terms of where it goes out to the septic tank:






Does that look ok? 

I think pretty much everything else would be the same.

In the 2nd to last post, that is a 2x 1-1/2 bushing for #6 right? For the 1-1/2" lav drain transitioning to 2"?

Is there a difference between a sanitary cross and a double sanitary tee?
I found this at home depot. http://www.homedepot.com/p/3-in-PVC-DWV-All-Hub-Double-Sanitary-Tee-C4835HD3/100343532

Also, would the cross restrict the flow of the water? I want to make sure I don't get clogs. Especially from the toilet. Or would that only be a problem if both toilets were flushing at the same time?


----------



## frodo

.................


----------



## frodo

charlotte pipe  3'' double fixture fitting with 2'' vent


----------



## zannej

Ahhh! Ok. Now I get it. I didn't realize the overflow and such would be 1-1/2. I assumed it would be 2" for some reason.

I thought the double tee I found looked too small, but I couldn't seem to find the right one in PVC. I'll have to look for the charlotte one. would that be a 2x3x3? I'm trying to remember the order. top, bottom, middle? Or would it start with 3"?

Found Spears P500 Series PVC DWV Pipe Fitting, Double Fixture Wye, 3" x 2" x 3" x 3" Hub on Amazon. Looks like the image you linked.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ALMRFOQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 (but the 3x2 option instead of the 2x1.5)

Edit: I just remembered that the lavs are currently S-traps-- and one of them has metal pipe. So those will need to be gutted and I'll have to punch holes in walls to fit the pipes. I wonder if I could do it with just busting the wall under the sinks and at the crown/top where I would need to access the attic part. One of the lavs is under a window, so I would have to route the vent around it (or maybe turn the arm at a 45 angle (probably do the same with whole trap) and put it into the wall south of the window and then have the vent up so it won't hit the window). I can look at the seams for the panels to get a general idea of where the studs are. 

Trying to come up with my total parts list for the DWV for kitchen, laundry, and bathrooms. 
1-1/2 P-trap x3 (for all 3 bathrooms),
1-1/2 adapter thingy to go from the twist-on PVC to the sch40 glued type x4 (bathrooms plus kitchen sink-- maybe have one that goes from 1-1/2 to 2"?)
1-1/2 to 2" s-tees x4? (for all sinks)
Should I have a bushing to increase the size to 2" and have 2" tees or stay 1-1/2 until the tee?
2" to 3" bushings x?
3" combo wyes x?

I just had brain freeze. LOL. I need to figure out the fittings for the washing machine and junk as well. And I need to figure out what sort of hoses to use to hook up the water-- rather than running PVC, I'm thinking of using braided hoses specifically for them and maybe getting little inline filters (and having an access panel for the hoses on the other side of the interior wall) because my water turns my white clothes orange and yellow. I really just need to get the whole house water softener installed. I have one in a shed, but need to find a spot for it in the pump house and figure out how to hook it up.


----------



## frodo

....material list for under the house


----------



## frodo

....................


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> ....................



Sadly, AAVs are prohibited here. That is why I need to make plans for proper vents.

and I think the hubs that I marked as 1/8 bends might have been 22.5 bends, but I'm not sure. But, that crap will get pulled out and replaced so it doesn't matter too much what is there now. I did make a note that when I fix the vent for the kitchen sink, I need to use 22.5 bends for the vent going in to and out the wall. I might have to look at the floor there to see if moving the drain in to the wall would be feasible though.

The more I thought about it, I realized that the vents for the tub are supposed to be AFTER the p-traps. So, it is unlikely that those are vented at all. I plan to be opening up walls, so I should be able to access stuff. I hope I won't need to look at things from the opposite side of the wall because the linen closet there has shelves and would be a pain to get into.

Edit: I forgot to mention that the shower/tubs are both right-hand drains. So, my tub has a closet on one side and my mother's has a bedroom wall. I admit that I am tempted to switch Mom's to be a left-hand drain instead. There would still be a closet in between, but at least if we had to take down shelves and tear out walls in the closet, it wouldn't be as much of a pain as trying to not damage bedroom walls and trim and such. Doesn't really matter if the closet looks ugly inside. 

It would involve moving the water supply lines for Mom's shower though. I plan to replace her entire fugly avocado green fiberglass one piece shower/tub unit (with cracked tub floor) and eliminate the above-the-floor drain. It will have more support and be easier to access the plumbing if it's below the floor.

The real fun will be figuring out how to vent those fixtures all properly to the exterior of the house. I don't trust anyone around here to cut holes in my roof, so we may have to punch a hole in the wall and route around a soffit on the exterior. Right now the existing venting is a joke.

Looking at the drawing-- I want to make sure I'm clear on it..
1-1/2" vents for the fixtures until they merge to a 2" vent. Vent 90s on the corners. On the 1-1/2 tee-- it's just a regular T shape and not a sanitary tee, right? And the cross would be 1-1/2" to 2"... (with inlets being 1-1/2" while top and bottom are 2").

Do I have that about right?


----------



## frodo

Sorry Zannej,    2 names for the same thing,  I used them interchangeably and confused you. 

san tee , tee, dwv tee,  pvc tee, are expressions used for them.

jut use a regular,  pvc dwv tee.

1 1/2 vents on everything except toilets, they are 2''  

the cross, would be 1 1/2 on the sides, 2'' in the middle


----------



## zannej

I haven't updated this in forever. There has been a code change this year. Louisiana no longer has it's own state code. It now goes by the 2012 version of IPC. I *think* that means that AAVs are back in-- unless there are local ordinances against it-- but honestly, since the inspector told me I wouldn't need permits to renovate out here, I don't think he would care. Besides, I think AAVs are preferable to S-traps. So, AAVs could be added to the existing fixtures and the new ones could be vented.

I admit that I still have some trouble visualizing things from line drawings. I do better with 3D stuff like sketchup. It's just the way my brain processes stuff.

Anyway, I was reading about drywells and stuff, and I *think* that my washing machine and the rough in for the laundry sink are going to some sort of dry well or french drain. I can't really see where the washing machine attaches because I'd have to climb under the house further to take a closer look, but I do know that the laundry sink drain went the opposite direction of the main sewer line and then embedded in the ground. I should dig around and see where it goes- and measure to see if it is at least 50' from the water well (which I suspect it is not).

To avoid messing up my septic tank, would it be feasible for me to just create some sort of drywell or large french drain just for the washing machine (and maybe water runoff from the roof)? Because my house has sort of an L shape, one of the roof valleys dumps tons of water (and leaves) in a certain spot that has almost formed a pit. See the attached rough sketch of the layout.

Does a dry well or graywater well have to be a certain distance from the water supply well?

I realize I would still have to vent the washing machine, but it might make some of the plumbing a little less of a headache & spare the septic tank from some of the heavy laundry loads.

What do you guys think?


----------



## frodo

...................


----------



## frodo

you want a  removable top on your barrel's


----------



## frodo

...........................


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## zannej

Thanks, Frodo! 
I really do need gutters. One thing I've noticed is that when it rains hard, the water coming from the roof's valley tends to just pour over like a waterfall and I think it goes over a foot out from the roof's edge. I think it would shoot over a gutter. Are there special gutter things for situations like that? 
The gutter will help in the other spots at least. 

Is there a minimum/maximum size for the holes on the barrels? To clarify, the second barrel on top is open side down and the notch allows for it to be slid upward and off of the pipe, right?

Is there any rule about the distance of the drywell from the water supply well? The direction of the runoff in your sketch is straight toward the water well There is a fence in between the well and the yard and there is also a fence not too far from the outside of the house. I've included a sims3 mockup with some of the stuff labeled. It is not quite accurate, but it shows the general layout. 

The terrain going east sort of slopes upward but it slopes down to the north (toward the barn)
I've also included google maps view of part of my yard to show the layout of the barnyard and the house and such.

The ground toward the barn tends to get mushy and muddy when it rains, but the higher ground remains solid.

So, sort of like the drywell in this guide: http://www.instructables.com/id/55-gallon-barrel-dry-well/ ?

Also, could this be used instead of perforated PVC? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GOBN24/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


----------



## nealtw

They put a splash guard on the front of the gutter to deflect the water, it's about 3"  high by 16" wide


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> They put a splash guard on the front of the gutter to deflect the water, it's about 3"  high by 16" wide



So, something like this? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000K2K27O/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## nealtw

zannej said:


> So, something like this? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000K2K27O/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



Yeah, like that.


----------



## frodo

,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,



Thanks, Frodo! Wish I could do something that simple for the laundry water, but I understand why I can't have it just dump straight out-- volume of water all at once would be too high and would contain detergent. 

One of these days I need to get a waterproof camera and film how the water pours over the end of that valley on the roof. I swear sometimes it looks like Niagra Falls.

I'm trying to figure where in the yard would benefit the most from the water. And I also need to try to figure out where the waterlines are so I don't intersect them. I know there are lines going down to the barn and workshop. I wish I still had my father's notes of where he put all of the waterlines, but he had a hard drive failure before his death and lost a lot of documents and such.

Perf pipe would be surrounded by rocks (the kind that doesn't have dust and is specifically for such applications) right? Same concept as a French drain in a sense?

I really appreciate the info!


----------



## frodo

maybe this wil help

,,,can you do a simple,  plan view a blue print.  instead of a cad  

like this ?


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## frodo

...............


----------



## zannej

ok. so you would like a blueprint like the actual blue one  you linked showing where stuff is? (tryng to type with cats in the way).

The part left not whited out in the last pic is the front porch. It is concrete and raised up off the ground. I'll have to see if I can sketch something up once the caats are not inthe way.


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## frodo

ooooooooooooooooooooooo


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## zannej

This any better? (still covered in cats-- apparently it's cold outside).

I think some of the text got lost in compression. The gate between front and back part of the little yard on the left side got crushed by the falling tree so it is gone. The perimeter fence is chain-link. The fence that used to be in front of the yard (north side) was removed after taking damage from trees-- but there is still a gate at the end of the sidewalk.

The cement block on the south side of the house used to be some sort of well that was filled in and/or covered.

The southern side of the fence has some crepe mertle trees near it. We buried a few pets under them over the years.


----------



## frodo

I am not worried about the outside,  it is the inside I need,  

location of the plumbing fixtures


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> I am not worried about the outside,  it is the inside I need,
> 
> location of the plumbing fixtures


Ahh! Ok. I'll try to sketch it up when my brain is working. Should I mark known outside water faucets too?


----------



## frodo

zannej said:


> Ahh! Ok. I'll try to sketch it up when my brain is working. Should I mark known outside water faucets too?




sure.............................................................................


----------



## zannej

I was sick for the last few days and am finally feeling well enough to think clearly.
First pic is the current layout. The blue represents cold water, red is hot. I only included the fixtures that use water (although I forgot the dish-washer but it is a rolling freestanding thing that hooks to the kitchen sink faucet and I almost never use it anyway). In the bathroom and laundry room the sinks are gone and the rough-in plumbing is there. The main vent stack is behind the toilet in B1. That toilet is the only fixture in the house that is properly vented. The main soil pipe is just under that toilet and travels west to the septic tank.
There are outdoor faucets in multiple places throughout the yard. One on the west near the porch, then farther out at the car port (to the west), one to the south of the water well and another to the north of it (east side of the house). And one just outside the back door. The latter two are the only ones that aren't broken.
Pic 1 (current layout)






Pic 2 (planned layout)





Pic 3 (zoomed out a little)





Is this better? 

Let me know if you need more details on anything.


----------



## frodo

In bath 1,  is that sink in a cabinet or on a  pedestal ?

if it is cabinet, because of your rim joist,  i will vent it and the toilet from that side wall.


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> In bath 1,  is that sink in a cabinet or on a  pedestal ?
> 
> if it is cabinet, because of your rim joist,  i will vent it and the toilet from that side wall.


The lavatory is a freestanding Euro-style vanity where the sink comes out over the edge of the little cabinet. Since the plumbing is already coming up through the floor, I was thinking of bumping it forward (since it has a drawer on the bottom) and putting a little shelf behind it to hold cups and whatever. I plan to make a medicine cabinet out of 3x1 boards with a cheap mirror on the front and have it mounted on the wall (but not going into it).

This is the sink/vanity:





This is the roughed in plumbing for it (which I will have to move because I need to re-do the floor in there anyway-- substrate got ruined from a washing machine leak from back when that room had parquet flooring):





early sketch of my plans for lav and toilet (probably won't be enough room for space saver)





What is a rim joist? I've heard the term before but am not sure what it is.
Edit: so the rim joist is the corner joist? By side wall, did you mean something like this (but angled sort of toward the corner rather than directly to the side.


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## frodo

that is exactly my plan,  becase of he rim joist,,,or,,,furr the wall out 3.5''


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## zannej

frodo said:


> that is exactly my plan,  becase of he rim joist,,,or,,,furr the wall out 3.5''



Thanks! I don't know if the house is that well constructed. The first bedroom and bathroom were the original parts of the house built back in the 40s I think. There isn't even insulation in the exterior walls-- but I think there is shiplap (sp?) on one of the interior walls. I'll have to take the crappy wall panels off to take a look at the construction.

So, it's ok to wet vent the toilet to the sink like that? It won't siphon?


----------



## nealtw

zannej said:


> Thanks! I don't know if the house is that well constructed. The first bedroom and bathroom were the original parts of the house built back in the 40s I think. There isn't even insulation in the exterior walls-- but I think there is shiplap (sp?) on one of the interior walls. I'll have to take the crappy wall panels off to take a look at the construction.
> 
> So, it's ok to wet vent the toilet to the sink like that? It won't siphon?



Think of the rim joist this way. It is the one sitting on the foundation or the one nailed across the ends of the floor joist.
The house should be platform built so it will have a rim joist.


----------



## frodo

zannej said:


> Thanks! I don't know if the house is that well constructed. The first bedroom and bathroom were the original parts of the house built back in the 40s I think. There isn't even insulation in the exterior walls-- but I think there is shiplap (sp?) on one of the interior walls. I'll have to take the crappy wall panels off to take a look at the construction.
> 
> So, it's ok to wet vent the toilet to the sink like that? It won't siphon?



it is ok,,,all we are doing is moving the vent a littl furthr away.

you run into this problem on ll outside walls. .another solution is to 45 into the wall down below the kick plate of the cabinets.


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## zannej

Since I plan to bump the vanity forward probably 3" to 4" to have a little shelf behind just to make room for the water pipes so they wouldn't need to be inside the wall. I would probably still need to do a slight bend to get the vent inside the wall. I'm trying o be mindful of making sure there is as little resistance to draining as possible. Which would be less obstructive to flow? A slight bend in the trap arm to angle it to the wall (assuming I put the P-trap at a diagonal-- with a little extra room from bumping the lav forward and out from the wall to allow elbow room and a side shelf) or having the 45 lower down?

Or is it just about equal?

I believe the side wall is load-bearing but I'm not sure if that makes any difference. Although, if it does, it might mean there might be some sort of joist underneath that wall. 

But, I think both plans are still feasible for now-- I won't know for sure until I pull those fugly thin wall panels off. LOL.

Thank you so much, btw! *hugs*


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## frodo

i would rather "bump" the wall out than offset the drain,  

offsets are legal, and common place,  BUT,  any change in direction is a place for a clog, later .or it may never.

you are going to have this problem  at the kitchen sink, clothes washer and lav in master bath


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## frodo

water.......


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## zannej

Thanks again, Frodo!
I'm thinking I might do a bit of a bulkhead instead of bumping the entire wall out. That way there is less to move. I should really take a peek at the floor situation under the side wall.

Although, I wonder if I use less than a 45degree bend on the vent if I could get it angled up into the wall (or would I likely have a joist on top as well?) 

I am seriously tempted to just slap AAVs on the existing sinks in the bathrooms now that the Louisiana plumbing code was repealed and goes by 2012 IPC.

The fridge does have an icemaker although it is not currently hooked to the water because the line was leaking and we shut it off. Will have to fix that and hook it back up so we can use the ice maker again.


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## frodo

bathroom/kitchn/washer


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## frodo

..............


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## zannej

One addendum: 
The main soil pipe is actually underneath where the old toilet in bathroom 1 is.
Here's an old sketch to show the placement.





Modified version of your sketch.





Also, I was thinking of keeping up part of the wall to the existing bathroom right when people come through the door (bc it has some wiring in it for light switches).
The metal thing is the back of a medicine cabinet.





So it would look something like this:





It would allow me to put the plumbing in that wall instead of the exterior wall.

Edit: Since the lav in bathroom 2 has a window above it, could I just run the trap arm to the shared wall with bathroom 3 and have them share a vent pipe? The vanity in bathroom 2 has drawers but I think there is enough space behind them to run the pipe.


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## frodo

is your existing sewer cast iron ?  

you do not want your washer sharing anything with your bathroom, suds will come up the drain.


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## frodo

.............


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## zannej

frodo said:


> is your existing sewer cast iron ?
> 
> you do not want your washer sharing anything with your bathroom, suds will come up the drain.



It's all PVC except for the s-trap on bathroom 3 lav which is some sort of shiny metal (but that can be replaced with PVC).

I think I confused things by the angle I showed the laundry room bathroom. I turned it so the west was on the bottom and south was on the right.

I was thinking something like this:






But since you said not to tie in the washing machine to the bathroom, could I tie it in after? 





I really should explore to see where the existing washing machine standpipe goes to. I'm not sure if it even ties in to the septic tank because I can't see where it connects-- it's just a straight pipe down and I couldn't see where it ended. I know the utility sink seemed to be going to something other than the septic tank so I could have some sort of drywell or french drain system that I don't know about. I'll have to carefully dig around the drain pipe for the utility sink to see. If I do have a drywell, then I could just tie the laundry in to that. I'm hoping I have one. I think we used to have a grease pit just outside the kitchen window.


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## frodo

is  
  this a breaker box ?  
if it is,,,it can not go there,,can not have the washer in front of it.
have to be able to walk up to it and flip  breakers

i think the distance is 5'    sparky consult is needed

might be able to simply turn the box 180


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## nealtw

frodo said:


> is  View attachment 12912
> this a breaker box ?
> if it is,,,it can not go there,,can not have the washer in front of it.
> have to be able to walk up to it and flip  breakers
> 
> i think the distance is 5'    sparky consult is needed
> 
> might be able to simply turn the box 180



I don't think that is a breaker box, don't see any wires.


----------



## frodo

............................


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## zannej

frodo said:


> is  View attachment 12912
> this a breaker box ?
> if it is,,,it can not go there,,can not have the washer in front of it.
> have to be able to walk up to it and flip  breakers
> 
> i think the distance is 5'    sparky consult is needed
> 
> might be able to simply turn the box 180



It's a medicine cabinet. The breaker box is on the wall across from it (to the left of the door).





The kitchen sink does have a garbage disposal. If there is a drywell, it is on either the east or the south side of the house (possibly southeast) since the drain for the utility sink goes east on the south side of the house and then goes to an elbow into the ground.

Here is a rough approximation. I would have to look at my photos and notes again to get the exact layout of the existing plumbing for bathrooms 2 and 3. IIRC it was a mess.


----------



## frodo

my opinion,   abandon  all the plumbing and run new pipes.


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## zannej

frodo said:


> my opinion,   abandon  all the plumbing and run new pipes.


Yeah. That's what I was thinking as well. I saved the notes you gave me on what I would need and how you suggested laying it all out.

I need to replace the tub surround in bathroom 3 but the cast iron tub is still ok. I believe it is an above-the-floor drain so I will have to access the overflow/drain from the wall-- I may need to make an access panel in the adjacent linen closet.

The entire tub/shower in bathroom 2 needs to go-- it is an ugly green one piece monstrosity that has cracks in the floor of the tub. I'm trying to decide if we should go with an ADA shower/tub combo or an ADA shower. Mom currently can't even get into it even with the shower seat because there are no grab bars. She tried those grab bars with suction cups but they don't stay on. We have to replace the entire floor in that bathroom as well. 

It's a lot of stuff to do, but I'm determined to get it done someday.


----------



## nealtw

These things always take longer when you have a home owner or handyman doing them and as you have a family living in it while this is happening you also need a plan of what to do in what order to keep at least one bathroom running with limited down time.


----------



## frodo

zannej said:


> Yeah. That's what I was thinking as well. I saved the notes you gave me on what I would need and how you suggested laying it all out.
> 
> I need to replace the tub surround in bathroom 3 but the cast iron tub is still ok. I believe it is an above-the-floor drain so I will have to access the overflow/drain from the wall-- I may need to make an access panel in the adjacent linen closet.
> 
> The entire tub/shower in bathroom 2 needs to go-- it is an ugly green one piece monstrosity that has cracks in the floor of the tub. I'm trying to decide if we should go with an ADA shower/tub combo or an ADA shower. Mom currently can't even get into it even with the shower seat because there are no grab bars. She tried those grab bars with suction cups but they don't stay on. We have to replace the entire floor in that bathroom as well.
> 
> It's a lot of stuff to do, but I'm determined to get it done someday.




your grab bars,  
find the studs, with a stud detector  .mark center stud.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Mueller-Streamline-1-in-Galvanized-Malleable-Iron-Floor-Flange-511-605HN/100178435

buy a 20''  1'' threaded galvinized pipe
2--  1'' elbows
2-- 1'' x 3'' nipples 

put the stuff together,   screw it to the studs   on an angle


----------



## slownsteady

just as a comparison; the threaded end caps add up to $23 plus the other pipe & elbows...

http://www.homedepot.com/p/MOEN-Sec...ar-in-Peened-Stainless-Steel-R8936P/202895050

My sister, who also has limited mobility opted for a walk-in shower in place of her tub. She loves it: http://www.homedepot.com/s/sterling%20walk%20in%20shower?NCNI-5


----------



## zannej

The Sterling shower kits sometimes come with "age-in-place backers" which allow you to put grab bars on them. I wonder if they essentially work like wall studs.

Is it a good idea to caulk around the flanges of the grab bars where they connect to the shower?

I may do the galvanized pipe thing in bathroom 1, but Mom is picky about the looks of stuff for her own bathroom. She'd have everything in polished brass if she could find it all for cheap. Hell, she'd have everything with some sort of elephant motif. 

This is the kind of style she likes:


----------



## slownsteady

Love it!.....in someone else's bathroom. Personally, I wouldn't want to face that every morning, but it is quite amusing.
Polished brass is really hard to find in any store these days; it's very hard to keep it looking new.


----------



## zannej

slownsteady said:


> Love it!.....in someone else's bathroom. Personally, I wouldn't want to face that every morning, but it is quite amusing.
> Polished brass is really hard to find in any store these days; it's very hard to keep it looking new.


You should see some of the dragon faucets. They look awesome, but waaaay too fancy for me. LOL. Maybe in a novelty place they would be cool.

Yeah, polished brass does not seem to last well. Mom's bathroom has some stuff and its all tarnished now.


----------



## nealtw

https://www.google.ca/search?biw=16...10.10.0....0...1c.1.64.img..0.0.0.AUSSNT1rZfM
http://www.homedepot.com/p/WingIts-Studless-Install-Grab-Bar-Fastener-TB-WINGIT-RES/203519197


----------



## zannej

Thanks, Neal. I'll have to show those to my mother. And I guess we would have to put in drywall in some spots. We currently have extremely flimsy wood panels. So, if I take the walls down for anything, I'll probably put in some 2x4 braces or something (if 2x4s would be sufficient).

Now I'm wondering what Frodo said and deleted.

I haven't been using the 'net as much the past week so I'm trying to catch up with forums and stuff now.


----------



## nealtw

Any time you have walls open, 2x4s, 2x6s or what ever on edge between studs for backing is a good idea.


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> Any time you have walls open, 2x4s, 2x6s or what ever on edge between studs for backing is a good idea.



Would I run them so the 2" edge is facing out or have the broader side facing out? (I hope I'm making sense). And what would be the best way to secure them between the studs?


----------



## nealtw

zannej said:


> Would I run them so the 2" edge is facing out or have the broader side facing out? (I hope I'm making sense). And what would be the best way to secure them between the studs?



Broad side is a good way of saying it. A couple nails into or thru each stud. It really doesn't have to be all that tight. It is like a great big anchor behind the dry wall.


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> Broad side is a good way of saying it. A couple nails into or thru each stud. It really doesn't have to be all that tight. It is like a great big anchor behind the dry wall.


Ok. that makes sense.


----------



## frodo

put the center of the boarrd where you need it. then if your off a little bit you will still hit wood


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> put the center of the boarrd where you need it. then if your off a little bit you will still hit wood



Good idea. I was thinking of going with some 2x10s or something just to give more room for error or adjustment of height for the grab bars. My mother is 5'6" so I will have to figure out the best spot for them-- although, likely it will be a matter of having her stand somewhere and have her put her arm out and see what is comfortable for her.


----------



## slownsteady

That's right. Observe her getting in and out and put the handles where they need to be. You may need one on the outside also, if that helps.


----------



## nealtw

zannej said:


> Good idea. I was thinking of going with some 2x10s or something just to give more room for error or adjustment of height for the grab bars. My mother is 5'6" so I will have to figure out the best spot for them-- although, likely it will be a matter of having her stand somewhere and have her put her arm out and see what is comfortable for her.



2x10 is a great idea and when in doubt put more in, take a photo so you can find them easy later.


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> 2x10 is a great idea and when in doubt put more in, take a photo so you can find them easy later.


Photo is a good idea. I plan to put some marks on the walls surrounding the tub-- maybe with painter's tape-- to make sure I know where they are.

The surround I plan to get can come with built-in-backers, but even the ones that don't of that model can have grab bars if there are boards behind it. It's one of the Sterling direct-to-stud surrounds. I looked at some of the Maax ones but they need to be over drywall but there isn't enough space to add something as thick as drywall. We have thin fugly wood panels with green stripes printed on them.

I'll have more leeway with the laundry area tub since it will be built fresh.

In a bit of good news, I befriended a really nice guy who is a carpenter and he offered to come over and look at the floor joist under my bathroom that some idiot notched out for the tub P-trap. He's going to see what needs to be done to reinforce it.


----------



## nealtw

zannej said:


> Photo is a good idea. I plan to put some marks on the walls surrounding the tub-- maybe with painter's tape-- to make sure I know where they are.
> 
> The surround I plan to get can come with built-in-backers, but even the ones that don't of that model can have grab bars if there are boards behind it. It's one of the Sterling direct-to-stud surrounds. I looked at some of the Maax ones but they need to be over drywall but there isn't enough space to add something as thick as drywall. We have thin fugly wood panels with green stripes printed on them.
> 
> I'll have more leeway with the laundry area tub since it will be built fresh.
> 
> In a bit of good news, I befriended a really nice guy who is a carpenter and he offered to come over and look at the floor joist under my bathroom that some idiot notched out for the tub P-trap. He's going to see what needs to be done to reinforce it.


All the tubs we see up here go to the studs nothing behind them but studs.
Notched floor joist. remove plumbing ,sister new joist to old and if the plumbing needs to go back drill a hole in the middle third .


----------



## zannej

This is a photo of the notched joist (on the left). It looks like they hardly have anything left of that section of the joist.






I'm going to have to figure out where the wall above there is so I can add a vent- currently there isn't one.

Meanwhile, it occurred to me that I was approaching the toilet venting the wrong way-- I kept thinking of wet venting or seeing if the north wall was less than 6' away so I could vent it at that point-- then I realized that I can run it to the closer interior wall and have the drain part merge with the horizontal part of the waste pipe for the lavatory. Instead of running the lav in to the exterior wall, I can bump the sink forward just a bit to give me some space to run the P-trap sideways instead of back.

I did run in to one main issue-- and that was figuring out the best way to reduce the toilet vent to 2". I tried to no avail to locate a tee that had the side and bottom at 3" but the top at 2" so I was thinking of using a reducing coupling after the top of the 3" tee.

Here is a revised sketch of the bathroom concept:





Here is is marked up with the lines to represent the plumbing (I suck at perspective so the stuff on the left side that is supposed to go in to the attic is screwy looking).





And here is my general concept of the parts to use and how they will be positioned. I didn't doublecheck it so I might have made some typos.





What do you think?

Any suggestions?

I'm debating whether or not to save pipe and space by just punching a hole in the exterior wall to put the vent for toilet and lav and routing it around the soffit-- but I don't like the idea of putting holes in exterior walls.


----------



## nealtw

zannej said:


> This is a photo of the notched joist (on the left). It looks like they hardly have anything left of that section of the joist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to have to figure out where the wall above there is so I can add a vent- currently there isn't one.



I see your cut joist but if you look to the right it looks like you are missing one.
which might give you reason to think you have a very thick sub floor.
Anyway just sistering one on the side of that that one would fix it right up.


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> I see your cut joist but if you look to the right it looks like you are missing one.
> which might give you reason to think you have a very thick sub floor.
> Anyway just sistering one on the side of that that one would fix it right up.


What is normal thickness for a subfloor?
Thanks.

There are some places where the floor sinks down and other places where it pokes up-- There is a lump just going in to my mother's room that feels like a joist slipped off of a support and that the support is pressing directly against the floor or something.

The house is pretty much up on triangular cement blocks with what looks like some cut wood logs for some of the supports. It's a Mickey Mouse job. 

When the floor in my mother's bathroom broke, the subfloor did not appear to be very thick. The floor above the missing joist has some sort of subfloor and then a black plastic barrier and then some sort of plywood of a thickness I don't think they make anymore (less than 1/2" but I think more than 1/4"-- but maybe it just sort of expanded with time due to moisture).

When I sister the cut joist-- can I sister on the opposite side of the plumbing so it won't interfere with any plumbing modifications or repairs later on?


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## nealtw

Your best bet is to clear away any of the old plumbing you can plan your new plumbing drill your holes and the repair the joists.
You should have joists about 16" on center or 14.5 " between them or close to that. 
So if you are changing and moving pipes anyway that is the time to fix any joists that are missing or hacked up.
Most or all of the old plumbing was done by homeowners so you could expect to find all kinds of damage to the joists.

You might want to just take pictures from all angles and start a new thread about the floor so this one doesn't get lost in the weeds.


----------



## zannej

Thanks. I'll have to get more pics eventually.
I do have a new friend who said he would take a look at the situation and see what he thinks should be done. He's worked on house structures before and his brother used to be a contractor before getting a back injury.


----------



## nealtw

Would you not include the washer drain and vent with the same pipe as the bathtub?


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> Would you not include the washer drain and vent with the same pipe as the bathtub?



I think that my washing machine is currently draining to an existing greywater system, but I'm not sure. I couldn't find where it tied in to the rest of the plumbing and I vaguely recall my father mentioning that it was dumping to something under the house. There was a utility sink that was removed but the rough-in plumbing is there and the drain goes in the opposite direction of the septic tank then has an elbow and goes into the ground. So, I'm guessing it must be some sort of drain system.
So, I was thinking I could just tie the washing machine back in to where it is currently draining (if it is not just dumping water straight under the house-- but I've never smelled the detergent or seen the soap outside after doing laundry). The vent I would probably tie in though. I forgot about adding that.

If I did tie the washing machine in near the tub-- would it risk siphoning the trap because of the force of the water leaving the washing machine? Would I tie it in below where the tub ties in?

I was thinking that if there is no greywater system, that I would just tie it in further down the line to try to avoid siphoning issues. But I don't know enough about washing machine drainage yet.


----------



## nealtw

With a trap and vent, there would be no problem but Frodo can help you with that. If you have a separate field for that and it aint  broke!


----------



## zannej

Thanks, Slownsteady. I had some 'net problems the other day and it kept refusing to post-- said I needed to login again and didn't show me that it had actually posted the first time.

When the weather warms up I should get some mosquito spray and go dig around where the utility sink drain goes to see if I can figure out where it is going and hope that it isn't just a french drain my father set up. He had a few outdoor utility sinks for just rinsing stuff and his hands (one in the workshop, one just outside the workshop under the cover, and another in the car port). He just had the pipes spill the water directly to the ground-- but dug french drains to disperse the water. It was similar to having an outdoor faucet, but was more convenient than using a garden hose. Pretty sure it was not following any code, but it's not like anyone was coming out to inspect stuff. The water lines to all but the one in the workshop are broken now anyway. They froze and I had to cap them off.

Is setting up a greywater system something a regular plumber would do or is that a specialty thing that another professional would do?

I'm thinking that if I do set one up, it would be closer to the septic tank (to keep it away from the water well) but I wish I could find my father's notes on where he put the various waterlines. He used to have it all marked. Both of the arborists we had found some waterlines by accidentally breaking them and the guys who did the septic tank went through one of the waterlines (although I actually told them it was there and they just went through it instead of routing around it).

and now I'm just babbling. I should probably create a separate thread for the greywater system thing because it is a whole other beast.

Getting back to what you said, are you saying that if I use a trap and vent, it is unlikely to cause siphoning if I tie in the washing machine to the main soil pipe?


----------



## nealtw

The vent stops the siphoning. distance to well is a concern and then the size of septic tank and field if it was big enough to handle laundry.


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> The vent stops the siphoning. distance to well is a concern and then the size of septic tank and field if it was big enough to handle laundry.


Yeah. I think the well is about 20 feet away from the house and is on the side with the laundry. Septic tank is on the opposite side. Just had a new septic tank put in a few years back with larger capacity and got new drainfield set up.

I'll have to search through the files I transferred from my father's old hard drive to see if I can find any documents that mark waterline locations. I might need to get the right software to view it. He had CAD and some other stuff on his computer.

I made a rough sketch that shows the yard and spots where I know there are/were water faucets. Blue represents water. Orange is utility poles.

Only four water spots are still working-- 
1. The one just outside the back door
2. The one to the water trough just outside the fence to the right of the house
3. The utility sink inside the workshop
4. The faucet on the fence that is at the southeast corner of the house

The rest had to be capped off-- the one near the utility pole after the field lines was capped at the field lines. The one to the north of the house (left side) on the fence is capped off slightly south of that because of the arborists.

Just south of the fence below the house we used to have underground hose to water the blueberry patch, but the blueberries are long dead.


----------



## nealtw

I wouldn't like the laundry water going in the ground with in 100 ft of the well.


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> I wouldn't like the laundry water going in the ground with in 100 ft of the well.


Yeah. The more I think about it, the more I think it would just be best to tie the washing machine in with the rest of the stuff because if I try to run it toward he septic tank it might run into stuff. There are trees on every side of the house and I don't know if I could put a drywell near the septic tank. Can't run it toward the front of the house because I'll hit massive tree roots and I don't want to do anything to harm the roots of that old oak tree.

Too bad there isn't some sort of inline filter I could use to clean out some of the soaps before it reached the septic tank. I suppose I could always dump some Ridx in the tank after some heavy laundry loads.

Been doing laundry at a friend's house temporarily because the heating element in the dryer went out.


----------



## nealtw

use liquids.
http://inspectapedia.com/septic/Washing_Machine_Impact_on_Septic.php


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> use liquids.
> http://inspectapedia.com/septic/Washing_Machine_Impact_on_Septic.php



Thanks. I prefer liquids since we have a front-load dryer.

We very rarely use anything with bleach-- tend to stick to color protect Tide and Downy Mountain Spring fabric softener.

I think I have the plumbing layout somewhat settled (although I will have to check for stud and joist locations).

I'm still trying to decide on a tub/shower surround since the one I wanted is no longer available. Only a few of the Sterling models can have holes cut in the walls for a window (each can have windows cut at specific heights-- fortunately the window is about 48" high and the highest minimum height for the window is 40"). 

My options are left-hand drain versions of Advantage 6103, Accord 7114, All Pro 6104, or Performa 7104. 
I believe I eliminated the Accord because it has ugly tiny fake tiles which would be a total pita to keep clean (the fewer nooks and crannies to clean the better). All Pro has big ugly tiles so probably not going with that one. 

I think I'm leaning toward the Advantage sine the Performa is only 29" wide, requires caulk, and is more expensive. (Don't mind me spitballing here. Just trying to remember what I wanted).

I'm considering getting a flexible overflow drain. I saw some that use the twist-on fittings the way sink P-traps work, but I think that would be a bad idea-- If it's going to be hidden, I want it glued and tight. 

I'm confusing myself because I see overflow kits that come with the covers and stoppers-- but I don't really like some of those covers and I'm not using the right search terms to find the drain part that fits in the shoe.

I'd like to get something without visible screws on the overflow plate. There is a Watco one with flexible drain that doesn't require screws-- the drain cover has a retaining ring. I think Watco has several different types though, so I could conceivably get a PVC kit that glues together that uses the retaining ring. But then I would be stuck with only Watco overflow plates.
Save​


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## nealtw

Just remember the tub has to fit thru the door, you can gain 2" by removing door frame.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq4fJIBF_oI[/ame]


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> Just remember the tub has to fit thru the door, you can gain 2" by removing door frame.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq4fJIBF_oI



There currently is no real door frame-- the hallway is about 34.5" but we are going to take down a wall and try to widen it.

The tubs I'm looking at are about 30" wide so they will fit even without taking walls out (back door is 36" wide).

I want a modular kit with a tub plus 3 wall pieces. The Advantage kit is 60" x 30" x 72". 

Sterling wants people to use their expensive window kit, but I will probably get something larger and less expensive. Their window kit is $169.86 at lowes and $127.39 at faucet.com and build.com (Lowes will price match allegedly). It's basically some plastic that fits in the window sill (sides & bottom-- not the top). I think they said it's 8" deep. But I wonder if I can find something just as effective that is cheaper.

Hmmm. That turbo-drain thing looks pretty neat. I wonder how it connects to PVC though-- it looks like it is ABS or some other type. And does it just fit on existing overflow kits?

Editing to add: I went to the Youtube link and it looks like they might not be continuing the product? I'm not sure.


----------



## nealtw

zannej said:


> There currently is no real door frame-- the hallway is about 34.5" but we are going to take down a wall and try to widen it.
> 
> The tubs I'm looking at are about 30" wide so they will fit even without taking walls out (back door is 36" wide).
> 
> I want a modular kit with a tub plus 3 wall pieces. The Advantage kit is 60" x 30" x 72".
> 
> Sterling wants people to use their expensive window kit, but I will probably get something larger and less expensive. Their window kit is $169.86 at lowes and $127.39 at faucet.com and build.com (Lowes will price match allegedly). It's basically some plastic that fits in the window sill (sides & bottom-- not the top). I think they said it's 8" deep. But I wonder if I can find something just as effective that is cheaper.
> 
> Hmmm. That turbo-drain thing looks pretty neat. I wonder how it connects to PVC though-- it looks like it is ABS or some other type. And does it just fit on existing overflow kits?
> 
> Editing to add: I went to the Youtube link and it looks like they might not be continuing the product? I'm not sure.



I see them on walk in tubs American Standard may have locked them up.


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> I see them on walk in tubs American Standard may have locked them up.


Maybe they just aren't available in the US? I don't know. Couldn't find any info about them other than people commenting on Youtube about how the url didn't work but now the url is gone. I'm guessing the company folded. But it looks like the general idea is that they have a 2-inch p-trap directly from the drain instead of having it underneath where the drain and overflow meet. I wonder if that follows code. I also wonder if it is possible to find a PVC tub shoe that goes straight down-- or finding the right sized female threaded PVC piece and a gasket to go under the tub. I wonder if going to a 2-inch p-trap would change the flow much.


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## nealtw

I found a price so, never mind, forget I brought it up.:rofl:
https://mbtubs.com/products/3x-walk-in-bath-turbo-drain


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> I found a price so, never mind, forget I brought it up.:rofl:
> https://mbtubs.com/products/3x-walk-in-bath-turbo-drain


LOL. Yeah. And really, the design is simple enough that I could probably jerry-rig my own version of it out of PVC. I wonder if the reason that the P trap is under the overflow normally is because it is closer to the wall or if it is because it makes the overflow drain faster. A slow overflow drain would not stop the overflowing.

And I wonder how much of a difference it makes when bumping the size of the trap up to 2" from 1-1/2".

I'm seriously thinking of getting something like this to explore under the house so I don't have to worry about spiders, mosquitoes, snakes, and having my brother's dog lick my nose off.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QR986M2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## slownsteady

> I'm seriously thinking of getting something like this to explore under the house so I don't have to worry about spiders, mosquitoes, snakes, and having my brother's dog lick my nose off.
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QR986M2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


point-3 Megapixel??????? Don't waste your money.


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## zannej

slownsteady said:


> point-3 Megapixel??????? Don't waste your money.


Yeah, although the footage wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Someone uploaded a video of it in action. It moved around pretty well. Video was pretty jerky.

I wonder how hard it would be to attach a better camera to a remote control thing like that. Like, maybe get a flashlight on it and just use the controls and replace the camera. lol.

Meanwhile, I've been looking back over this thread to see things I forgot. The window I was thinking about getting is no longer available, but I found this: 
https://www.lowes.com/pd/REDI2SET-W...in-x-36-in-Actual-21-25-in-x-34-75-in/3520810

My existing window (I re-measured it) is about 22.75w x 34.75H with the frames in place. The glass pane thing is frameless so I'm not sure how I would set it in. I suppose I could look at the instructions. LOL. 

It's a little bit smaller from side to side by about an inch. I wonder if I would have to tear out the top and bottom though.

Editing to add that I read the install instructions and found that I can use something like this http://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-22-Gauge-Brick-Tie-100-Pack-BT-R100/100375148 for a wood framed window. I should probably seal stuff up when the window is out. I highly doubt that they had proper sealant around the windows when they built it. They didn't take the windows out when they put on the new siding and trimmed the exterior.


----------



## slownsteady

The brick ties would have had to be installed as the bricks were being laid. I don't think they can be effectively retrofitted. 
Make sure you have all the rough-in carpentry done before you measure for the new window.


----------



## zannej

slownsteady said:


> The brick ties would have had to be installed as the bricks were being laid. I don't think they can be effectively retrofitted.
> Make sure you have all the rough-in carpentry done before you measure for the new window.



I'm not sure I understand. It is a pre-built glass block window with vent. Basically it says to get the rough-size of the window set up and then put the window in with shims/blocks on top and bottom to hold it in place (leaving a certain amount of gap all the way around) and then pipe or push in mortar. Once the mortar is set enough to support the window in place, remove blocks and fill the gaps with mortar-- only difference it said with a wood window was that brick ties would be needed to make the mortar stick.

I think I would seal the wood and/or use waterproof paint or something on it before nailing in the wall ties all the way around and then following the regular instructions.

The window I linked has an "actual size" and "rough size" measurements. Top to bottom is the right actual size but side to side is about an inch shy of actual size. I wonder if I should just use vinyl instead of wood to frame it out once I remove the wood framing. 

I hope I'm making sense. 

I really need to research more about windows, removing old frames and framing out replacements. I'm hoping it won't affect anything on the exterior (although I do plan to liberally use some caulk all the way around both inside and outside).


----------



## oldognewtrick

Zane, remember, to much caulk is as bad as not enough...


----------



## zannej

oldognewtrick said:


> Zane, remember, to much caulk is as bad as not enough...


Gotcha. Don't want it peeling off. 

And I'm debating whether to go for the pre-made window or see if I can make one myself in a system that uses a special caulk instead of mortar. I'll have to compare the prices of materials and such and figure out how to do it and how many blocks I would need of what size and so forth.

I see they make blocks that are 8x8 and some that are 8x4 and so forth. I wonder if I could just make an approximate sized window with a hopper vent and then adjust framing to fit. 

I'm going to consult someone who has experience with this though-- probably will see if anyone local has ever done glass blocks and such.

Editing to add: I should probably create a separate thread about the window to avoid confusion.


----------



## zannej

I'll have to post pics later, but I stuck my phone under the house with the video camera on and tried to get a look at the joists and the subfloor.
There were some sturdy weeds that got in the way so I couldn't just move smoothly across-- had to pull the camera out and put it back in between the stupid weeds-- and I ended up with dog tongue up my nose because my brother's mutt decided that he had to lick my arms and face. LOL.
It looks like the joists are not going to be in the way of the tub drain. Not sure on the toilet.
Subfloor appears to be some sort of wooden slats/boards. Looks kinda like 2x4s but probably isn't. It's the kind of subfloor I saw in the air circulation space under the air conditioner. I wonder if that will make things more difficult when I go to work on the project. I was thinking it was going to be some sort of plywood. So, this means I might not be able to open the floor up like I'd thought. But, they are probably sturdier than plywood. There are also a few very pretty nice old routered boards on the east wall. The whole wall used to have those boards, but when we came back the tenants had ripped most of them out. I'm hoping to find a use for them somewhere.
I should probably not be posting while this tired. LOL.


----------



## zannej

OK, I was wrong about the floor. On my phone's screen it looked like boards. When I see it on the computer it looks like plywood.
Here you can see under the existing shower-- floor has water damage.










At least I have a couple of thick pretty boards on the walls





I tried to measure but had a hard time getting the tape to hold steady while taking a picture and I'm not tall enough to be able to read it while standing on top of the stepstool. The board has some sort of interesting edge detail.


----------



## slownsteady

Most likely it is tongue & groove paneling. The boards that I have are about 3/4 inch thick. YMMV.

edit: that stain around your drain pipe is not a good sign. Is it fresh?


----------



## zannej

Thanks. I really like that tongue-and-groove board. Too bad the tenants stole most of it. We got back from overseas and found that the board had almost all been cut and pulled off. I'm pretty sure they used it in their house.

I believe that stain is old. That shower has not been used in over 16 years. It's the one with no P-trap and that whole area always reeked of sewer gas until I covered up the shower drain. I should probably go under there at some point and gently poke it to see if it feels wet. I don't like that it looks like there might be some staining around the hot water pipe and there do not appear to be any shutoffs under the house for those water pipes (before we went overseas, my father added shutoffs to all of the water supply pipes under the house just in case but most of them were gone when we got back). Since I plan to take out that shower and wall, I'm thinking of getting the go ahead from Mom to let me pull the paneling on the opposite side and check to see if it is leaking.


----------



## zannej

I still haven't gotten around to putting the camera back under to get better shots yet, but I've been thinking about the floors. For the bathroom I plan to use vinyl sheet, but I'm debating what to use for the laundry area. I want something that won't tear or get ruined if we have to move the washer and dryer for maintenance. And when I had linoleum, it kept getting rubbed by the back door and eventually ripped (part of that is because something wasn't done right on the installation so the wood sill part under the door rotted and I think the plywood swelled up a bit- plus nothing is square on this house). 

Now, I could do what some friends did and install flooring throughout the room but leaving a space where the door swings in and get vinyl plank that matches the kitchen-- or get cheaper vinyl plank than for the kitchen-- but I'm concerned about that getting scratched.

I read somewhere that people sometimes paint their floors. I know this is done on concrete porches and in garages, but I wonder how that would work on plywood floors. It seems like the cheapest and simplest solution. My concern is finding a durable paint that is easy to clean but that is not too slippery to walk on in socks or slippers- but that isn't too abrasive. Any ideas?


----------



## zannej

I put the camera back under. Shots came out too fuzzy to be of much use. My arm found a few spiderwebs. I had an itty bitty spider waving at my face when I was reaching under, but I didn't get a good shot of him/her-- cute little bugger though. 
Shots aren't worth posting, but it looks like the subfloor is dark/damaged under the washing machine-- so the water damage spans over the joist. 




Metal pipe is defunct. Pipe in the right with dark T is the shower drain. In the middle its the water supply and drain for the washing machine.

Meanwhile, I was talking to Neal about the back door and it prompted me to get more pics. Looks like the door needs to be replaced and the frame probably needs some work now. The door currently won't stay closed unless I prop something against it.

Pics are in this post since I'm too lazy to post them all here.

So, right now, here is my list of things that need to be done:

Tear down west & north walls of bathroom (leaving part of the wall intact).
Remove shower stall, toilet, and part of south wall of bathroom
Replace/repair subfloor in hallway & current bathroom
Replace exterior door & frame + install new cat door
Bump doorway to laundry room over to the east a couple of inches to allow for trim around it (and to give it more room for the knob).
Move washer & dryer out of the way
Replace/repair subfloor in current laundry room
Remove crappy paneling from walls in the entire area
Take down ceiling fan & remove crappy ceiling tiles
Paint ceiling (if the ceiling boards are in good enough shape-- if not, will put something up there)
Install vent fan/light combo where ceiling fan used to be and run ductwork in attic & change current single toggle switch to double rockers to control vent-light (perhaps move switch from west wall to north wall)
Rough in plumbing and electrical (will slightly move some existing water supply lines and electrical wires, and add some new things-- like GFCI with rocker switch for vanity light).
Replace crappy metal windows with new doubleglazed vinyl windows
Cut hole for new vent or the dryer, seal up & cover old vent hole
Install insulation and vapor barrier in exterior walls
Install vinyl sheet in bathroom then cover
Cover/protect flooring for tub/shower install.
Install new wall panels (re-use some old and maybe get some new stuff if there is not enough) & molding/trim for walls, ceiling, & windows
Install toilet & lavatory
Install door to bathroom (knob will be on left side while facing bathroom from hallway)
Install ceiling fan in new laundry area (after preparing the ceiling with support box)
Finish flooring for laundry room & hallway area (trying to decide best flooring)
Make/buy shelves or cabinets to go above washer & dryer for storage and put them in place
Replace dryer heating element to get it functional again
Put furniture sliders under washer & dryer pedestals to ease movement for maintenance & put appliances in place
Make & install fold-down table on south wall of laundry room
Modify partially built lower cabinet to hold bin for lint (found it just sitting in the workshop and I want to repurpose it)
Finish bathroom with towel bars, toilet paper holder, shower curtain rods & curtains-- and other little touches.

It's a lot of work, but I'm going to get some help from friends. One of my friends owes us some $ & I asked him how he would feel about knocking off some of the debt by helping and he said he would help us for free. I'm going to be helping him fix up his burned house.

Hopefully I didn't miss anything on the list-- and I'm trying to decide if I should finish the laundry room before the bathroom so we can have it operational again as soon as possible-- or at least get it functional first.

Any suggestions/revisions?


----------



## nealtw

I went looking at old photos and see you have 2 windows back there, should plan on both while you are there.

I think you have two starting points. 
1. do the new plumbing under the house except for these two rooms, just cap them off so they can be hooked up when ready.
2. replace the 2 windows and the door maybe and if the kitchen window is close by do that too . So a whole bunch of work with the siding is done at the same time.

Then I would gut the bathroom and fix up the laundry room a then move the machines.


----------



## zannej

Yeah, I was planning to do the two adjacent windows at the same time. If the Plygem ones are ok, I can get two of them (but one with tempered glass). I'll have to make sure the store properly marks them so I can tell which is which. 

Kitchen window is on the other side of the door so its siding doesn't touch the windows. I will probably do the kitchen window the same time I'm doing the door (unless I can just figure out how to repair the kitchen window so it will stay open).

One problem with the kitchen window is that they did the vent around it-- interfering with the siding. I'm going to want to either eliminate that and use an AAV (which I am weary of doing) or use bends to put the drain and vent outside the exterior wall (but try to put it on the side of the window instead of under). I'll have to cover the hole where the S-trap currently goes down. If I go with AAV, I'll just remove the exterior vent pipe. If I don't, I'll paint the vent pipe to prevent sun damage.

New plumbing for the rest of the house is going to be tricky. I need to go back and look at some of the diagrams Frodo drew for me. Both tubs need vents and proper slope-- and need to be re-routed. I need new wall surround for my bathroom tub, and I probably should fix the S-trap under my sink. The adjacent bathroom needs the floor redone and to have an ADA shower put in. Both tubs currently have right-hand drains. I thought about switching one to left-hand, but I realize that wouldn't leave space for a grab bar where my mother will need it. I'll be able to put the exterior grab bar and shower seat on the left. I believe I have a thread about that remodel on the plumbingforums (or maybe on this site-- I can't remember). But I will need to tear out some walls to access plumbing. There is a small linen closet between the tubs (with access from the hallway). I'm thinking of cutting some access panels inside the closet where there will be water shutoff valves in case of emergency-- and so I will be able to check for leaks in there.

I know Mom would prefer for me to fix my bathroom floor (the botched self-leveling job), get a toilet installed, and make it so my bathroom is accessible while hers is out of commission. She hasn't really been receptive to listening about the S-trap situation (I think she doesn't quite understand). 

I've put a lot more planning and focus on the laundry room/bathroom. 

But I think you are right that I should get the other plumbing straightened out. I'm just not sure what to do with it. I haven't been able to break up the botched self-leveling stuff. I'm going to need to replace the vent/light/heat fixtures in the ceilings. 

Mom is not quite sold in replacing all of the windows yet, but I'm working on it-- it would save us some $ on electricity I think.

To break down what I need to do  (in no particular order):

Repair/replace disconnected kitchen sink drain (the horizontal run came apart at the joint under the house)
Get rid of S-trap under kitchen sink
Repair subfloor and level it in my ensuite (B3)
Repair scrape on cast iron tub in B3
Replace tub surround in B3
Finish sealing sheet vinyl (already in place loosely) in B3
Install toilet in B3
Fix S-trap in B3
Replace vent/light in B3
Add moulding/trim to floor & walls in B3
Replace ugly ceiling in B3 (maybe take down and paint existing wood or put up beadboard ceiling, or peel & stick floor tiles)
Take furniture and tools and other stuff out of tub in B3
Put new one-handle shower/tub lever, Moentrol valve, tub spout, overflow cover, and new showerhead (hoping to get Moen Kingsley) in B3
Replace window in B3 and fix trim around vanity
Install new towel bars, toilet paper holder & backplate (after painting backplate), & install new shower rod.
Replace faucet in B3
Put faucet from B3 in adjacent ensuite (B2)
Take out fugly green one-piece tub/shower unit in B2
Remove furniture and vertical part of shelving unit (that touches floor) from B2
Paint vanity, shelves, and walls in B2
Replace or re-finish fugly green sink in B2
Tear up damaged subfloor and replace in B2
Install new shower unit & put up grab bars in B2
Put down vinyl sheet in B2
Install moulding & trim on walls in B2
Put new one-handle shower/tub lever, Moentrol valve, tub spout, overflow cover, and new showerhead in B2 (possibly with slide type shower arm to allow easy reach for showerhead)
Fix S-trap in B2
Possibly re-finish counter-top in B2 (might not need to do that)
Replace vent/light/heat in B2 ceiling
Replace window in B2
Check ductwork in attic
Install ladder to attic
Have electrical inspected, add whole house surge protector, & upgrade/replace some of the breakers in breaker box (need to figure out why electrical near front door is not working)
Re-point chimney & repair damage to edge of roof
Install gutters and downspouts
Make french drains on ground near downspouts
Level & fill in dog & armadillo holes in driveway
Pour pea gravel in driveway
Fix car port & electrical to it
Fix front gate and add automatic opener
Cut down trees overrunning workshop yard
Repair exterior porch area of workshop (water damage)
Fix pump house up (doors broken and has holes)
Install vent fan in side of pump house to pull hot hair out during summer
Repair broken waterlines around yard
Put ball shutoff on waterline for cow waterer
Fix gates and fence around yard
Replace windows on bedrooms, living room, and front room
Replace back steps 

Obviously, I'm not going to tackle it all at once. I will need help with quite a bit of it. I can do painting and gluing PVC. The pros will have to fix/replace the car port. For the rest I should be able to enlist the help of friends. I can do a little bit of woodworking.


----------



## nealtw

I think you and frodo had a pretty detailed plan going. I think the way to do this would be to run the new main line for the sewer with all the Ts and Ys and cap them all and tee it in to the old line out closer to the tank so you would have both and as each room gets hooked up the old could be removed and capped. It wouldn't matter which room you did first.


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> I think you and frodo had a pretty detailed plan going. I think the way to do this would be to run the new main line for the sewer with all the Ts and Ys and cap them all and tee it in to the old line out closer to the tank so you would have both and as each room gets hooked up the old could be removed and capped. It wouldn't matter which room you did first.



True, and I suppose I could at least take care of the drain part and do the vents later. Given that I don't currently have vents anyway, it wouldn't really change the status quo. 

I need to find the sketches and supply list again. Can't remember which page it was on. LOL.


----------



## nealtw

zannej said:


> True, and I suppose I could at least take care of the drain part and do the vents later. Given that I don't currently have vents anyway, it wouldn't really change the status quo.
> 
> I need to find the sketches and supply list again. Can't remember which page it was on. LOL.



post #348.............


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> post #348.............


Thanks!
I'm also still pondering what to do about the back door-- particularly the floor part. I need to see if Tumblr will let me pots the pics now. It was being a pain. But the sill (or whatever it is called) underneath is rotted very badly.
More pics of the door.


----------



## nealtw

Just measure the height and width of the door slab itself.


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> Just measure the height and width of the door slab itself.



It's 36x80.

And now I'm going through the posts and my saved images to see if I can find the list Frodo came up with for the plumbing for the whole house. He had diagrams of how to do it all. One of my cats is getting in the way of the screen. LOL.


----------



## zannej

I decided to do some modified sketches of the current plans. I changed the tub in one of the bathrooms to a shower since my mother has trouble lifting her legs high enough and just wants to be able to sit in the shower.

I decided to move the kitchen drain direction because it ties in with the other two bathroom groups-- which is a pretty long run. I think it is a shorter run to the new laundry/bathroom group.

I'm temporarily planning to use AAVs for the sink and lavs (except for the new bathroom) because adding vents would involve opening up walls that I'm not planning to open soon. The shower walls are going to be opened to do the surrounds, so I should be able to add vents there. I'm thinking that I could tie the toilet vents in with the tub & shower vents, but then I need to figure out how to vent them out of the house. I'm not sure if I would want to put a hole in the roof. I do have a new friend who does roofing, but I don't know his level of expertise and I absolutely do not want leaks. But, it would be a pretty long run for a vent pipe to go through the attic and I don't know if ductwork would be in the way or what obstacles might be there.

I'm also trying to figure out how to determine if some of my sinks/lavs have 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" drains. I think the reason my kitchen drain came apart (and had to be held together with a rubberband) is because I think the new P-trap might be 1-1/4" but I'm not sure. I'm going to replace it since it is currently an S-trap.

Additionally, I want to make a list of all of the plumbing fittings I will need so I can price them out. I know Frodo previously made a list for me, but I've changed some things up since then. And I want to be clear on some of the terms used. I know he mentioned "bushing" a few times.


----------



## frodo

.................


----------



## frodo

lav sinks are 1 1/4  kitchen and laundry ar 1.5

makes no difference,  you will run a 1.5 arm to all sinks use a 1.5 trap  and reduce using a 1 1/2 x 1 1/4  washer under the sink

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P107-338-3-x-2-PVC-DWV-Bushing

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P107-251-2-x-1-1-2-PVC-DWV-Bushing

go here for prices

http://www.supplyhouse.com/PVC-DWV-Fittings-14951000

i suggest you look at these prices, compare to home depot,,,


----------



## zannej

Thank you so much, Frodo!
One modification though: I could run the trap arm for lav in B2 north into the interior wall shared with lav in B3. I just looked inside B2 cabinets and the drawers are not boxed in-- they are just sort of floating in there and they don't go all the way to the back. There is enough space to fit the trap arm behind the drawers. I could have my skinny friend climb in there and cut a hole in the side of the cabinet which would come through the back of the cabinet in B3.
It would be a lot easier and simpler than furring out that wall. The vanity is built-in-place and the wall is actually part of the backsplash. Also, there are shelves that go all the way to that wall so I wall and I don't want to mess with them. I couldn't move the vanity without breaking something, but I could easily pull the drawers out of the way. That way none of the visible walls would really be affected.

I'm trying to avoid cutting open walls unless I have to- so the only places I could cut open that would not be visible would be the wall under the lav and the shower walls. Which makes me wonder if I could just run the toilet line to either the nearest tub or lav (I believe the tub is closer) and then go up in the attic from there.

If I did that, how much would it change the overall plans?

Thank you for the links to the parts-- I admit that I am not sure how the bushings would fit on things (which direction they would go).

I was thinking I would have to use something to adapt from the twist-on fittings to the glued PVC. I saw two products but am not sure what the difference is.

One is this: 1-1/2 in. PVC DWV Trap Adapter

And the other is this: 1-1/2 in. PVC DWV Hub x SJ Trap Adapter

The latter one is smaller, but I don't know if they function differently or what.

For further clarification on the fittings list:
To go from 1.25" to 1.5", this washer http://www.supplyhouse.com/Korky-724A-1-1-2-x-1-1-4-Slip-Joint-Washers-Flexible-TPR-20-Pack
#4. Did you mean like this? http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P300-030-3-PVC-DWV-90-Elbow
#5. Is it this? http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P429-338-3-x-2-PVC-DWV-Double-Sanitary-Tee
#6&7. http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P329-342-3-x-4-PVC-DWV-90-Closet-Elbow ?
#9. http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P401-251-2-x-2-x-1-1-2-PVC-DWV-Sanitary-Tee
#11. http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P401-241-2-x-1-1-2-x-1-1-2-PVC-DWV-Sanitary-Tee
#12. http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P300-015-1-1-2-PVC-DWV-90-Elbow

Edit: I saw this thing and was wondering how it is used http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P327-015-1-1-2-PVC-90-Double-Elbow (It's not on the list, but I'm wondering WTF the application of that thing is).

Also, for tying vents together, if I want to have a vent tie in to another and then have both move along, what would I use to merge them? Would I just use an upside-down tee and go up a little and have a 90? or is there an appropriate fitting?


----------



## nealtw

zannej: those two fitting are the same one goes on the end of a pipe the other fits in the end of a fitting.

If you are doing a list, don't forget you have to tie new into old somewhere with a fitting and then caps for any lines that are going to be started and left for later use. Maybe some couplings to join to those lines and some more caps for the old that will be disconnected.


----------



## slownsteady

returning unused parts to the big box stores is pretty easy. Get a few more than you think you will need, and a few "just in case" parts. Return the extras after the project is done. Nothing sucks more than a shopping trip right in the middle of a project because of something stupid that was forgotten.


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> zannej: those two fitting are the same one goes on the end of a pipe the other fits in the end of a fitting.
> 
> If you are doing a list, don't forget you have to tie new into old somewhere with a fitting and then caps for any lines that are going to be started and left for later use. Maybe some couplings to join to those lines and some more caps for the old that will be disconnected.





slownsteady said:


> returning unused parts to the big box stores is pretty easy. Get a few more than you think you will need, and a few "just in case" parts. Return the extras after the project is done. Nothing sucks more than a shopping trip right in the middle of a project because of something stupid that was forgotten.



Thanks, Neal. I'm a very visual person, so I struggle to understand the line drawings because my mind needs to put it in 3D and visualize the parts. I will have to look up pictures that might show those parts going together and how they fit. Hopefully I can find some instructions. The site Frodo linked me is very helpful since it has little pictures that show what the parts look like.

Slownsteady, good idea on the extra parts. I have some extra water supply repair parts in a plastic bin (and lying around in a tool closet as well as in the pump shed). I think if I bought the parts, I don't know if I would return them. I'm a hoarder so I would likely keep extras just in case. I've got a fairly large workshop with plenty of storage space. Plus the big box stores are an hour away and I usually only go to that town once a month or every other month.

I wonder if I can keep in my budget of around $5k for the laundry room and bathroom area-- I hadn't planned on replacing the door, but that will be an extra cost. And I will probably get Henry Blueskin WD door & window wrap-- which is not sold in local stores but is on Amazon. It needs Henry He572110 "blueskin" Spray Prep, so I'll need a can or two of that-- unless I can use 3M spray or something instead.


----------



## slownsteady

The distance is one of the reasons I mentioned getting extras. But since you mentioned hoarding stuff, take an inventory of what you have before you shop. Instead of having two of 'this or that', you don't want to end up with four of them.

Also, there's this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Grace-Vy...Roll-Fully-Adhered-Flashing-5003105/203057405


----------



## zannej

slownsteady said:


> The distance is one of the reasons I mentioned getting extras. But since you mentioned hoarding stuff, take an inventory of what you have before you shop. Instead of having two of 'this or that', you don't want to end up with four of them.
> 
> Also, there's this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Grace-Vy...Roll-Fully-Adhered-Flashing-5003105/203057405


Yeah. I remember one time my dad started doing a concrete pour job (for a shed) and ran out of concrete so we had to make a mad dash to HD to get more bags. We told them what we needed and that we needed to load the bags in a hurry and get back. They said they would run the barcodes and we would pay and then they would load us up. We stood there for probably 15 minutes waiting for someone to come load the bags we'd already paid for when I said "screw it" and started picking up a bag myself-- suddenly employees stopped chitchatting with one another and rushed over and said I wasn't allowed to pick them up and that they would handle it, so they started loading them and then we had to rush back home. 

I don't know if I have any spare DWV parts laying around-- mostly PVC supply stuff. I will have to go and take an inventory of lumber and stuff. There is all sorts of stuff down in the workshop. One day I'll take pictures of the workshop and post it on the garageretreat forum. I need to get some sort of stepstool out down there and look through some of the little bins on the walls. Dad was a bit taller than me and had longer arms so he could reach stuff. I also want to do some stuff to fix the place up a little more. I need to patch the roof on the workshop's porch area, but I've gained a LOT of weight since I last went up there and the reason there is a hole is bc my foot went through when I was mopping Coolseal up there. 

Thanks for the link to the wrap. A related link pulled up this pre-made corner thingy. I saw a video where someone used a similar product under the wrap. I wonder if that stuff is actually any good.

I've been watching videos about window installation-- leaving gaps to let water drain, using flat plastic shims, etc. I forget the name one of the people used for the shims-- but he said it was a plastic kind that would not compress and would not rot.

I'm currently watching a video on electrical installation-- but it's over an hour and 40 minutes long. I have about 20 minutes left, but I started drifting off so I paused and will resume watching in a bit. Lots of cool things I didn't know about-- like making loops of extra wire in case more is needed to be pulled into the box later on, the different types of things to hold the wires on to the studs, what the different colors are, wrapping the wire around the screws clockwise, etc. Wish I'd known that last bit when rewiring a replacement jack after the old one got fried by a power surge. I'm taking notes. Heh.

And I'm going to watch videos on door installation and stuff later.

I wanted to watch last night but internet went out from storms-- we had a tornado watch in effect.

Meanwhile, I'm going to take some measurements of the other two bathrooms so I can get a general idea of the distances in them for running the vents.

I plan to install a light fixture above the vanity in my room, so that means I will have to open up that wall. I was thinking of pulling that whole wall panel and putting up beadboard.

I already plan to run the trap arm from the adjacent bathroom's lav in to that wall, but I'm debating on where to run the toilet vents. I could run them both to that same wall (and I've got probably 4 feet of space to work with there) or run the toilet vents to the nearest tub wall-- since I'm going to pull that wall back-- but it is a smaller space and I have the water lines and tub's vent in that one. Although, I could potentially access it from both sides if I cut an access panel in the adjacent hall closet. 

On one hand, if I run it to the tub wall, the drain will line up more with the next tub. On the other, I'm not sure there is enough space in there and it is above a joist. If I run the toilets to the lav wall there will be more space and I can run them all together to the main sewer line. I'm trying to figure out if it would be shorter to run the other shower separately to the main line or tie it in with the other fixtures.

Edit: I threw together an ugly sketch.





Lav from B2 wet vents under Lav from B3. on the toilets, one will wet vent under the other.


----------



## frodo

no wet venting of terlet  allowed

for the back to back terlts
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P500-030-3-PVC-DWV-Double-Fixture-Fitting

for the back to back  tub and shower

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P500-020-2-PVC-DWV-Double-Fixture-Fitting

for the lavs  
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P500-241-2-x-1-1-2-x-1-1-2-x-1-1-2-PVC-DWV-Double-Fixture-Fitting

for the toilets   
http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P329-342-3-x-4-PVC-DWV-90-Closet-Elbow

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P800-422-4-x-3-PVC-DWV-Closet-Flange


----------



## zannej

Thanks, Frodo! I somehow thought that the toilets couldn't wet vent like that but I wanted to be sure.

Ok. So, could I run the toilets drains west until they were under the vanity wall, then use long sweeps to have them hook to that cross?

They are not quite back-to-back. One of them is closer to the west than the other, but I was having trouble trying to get the measurements. So I'm concerned about getting the right slope for both of them. 

For the shower, it is a right hand drain so it would be 5' away, but that is still within acceptable limits, so that might be easier.

For the lavs, I was going to comment that one of the lavs will have a much longer trap arm, but that just means I will have to figure the slope and I can bring the other one down to match it. The vanity in B2 is 72" wide with the lav right in the center. The drop is very small. The vanity in B3 is perpendicular and is about 48" wide. Distance from the closet wall to the side of vanity in B3 is around 59" (I had trouble with my measuring tape so I will have to go back and measure again to be certain). I'll have to remove the drop cloth from the floor to find where my flange is and figure out the center.

I went in and did some rough measurements last night but my measuring tape kept twisting and trying to cinch back up even after I locked it. There were a coupe inches difference in the sizes that should have been roughly the same-- so either it's really askew or I just fail at measuring. LOL.

I have some pics of the fugly green bathroom (aka B2).
















Probably going to paint the walls. Not sure what to do about green sink.

The open shelves are pine and my father built them-- including the little shelf to hold stuff like reading glasses, pencils, etc. There is a magazine rack on the floor that holds the fill-it-in puzzles (but I didn't take pics of the floor bc it's horrible).

That shower is 59" wide so when I replace it, I will have to notch in to the closet about an inch. 

When I get better measurements of the location of toilet drains, I'll post them and some diagrams.


----------



## frodo

,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## nealtw

I think that wrap from home depot will be fine, the pre made corners are handy but add $20 to each window. You can make the corners with the peel and stick, just a little learning curve. I have never used the corners.

When you find that stuff they will also sell little plastic horse shaped pieces 1/4" thick for under the window and 1/8" to go behind the lower flange. That allows water to get out from around the window.


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,



Could she just run the vent for the toilets up inside the closet.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> Could she just run the vent for the toilets up inside the closet.



yes,  but it would require offsetting the toilets

and that is never a good idea,  also would lose a closet


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> I think that wrap from home depot will be fine, the pre made corners are handy but add $20 to each window. You can make the corners with the peel and stick, just a little learning curve. I have never used the corners.
> 
> When you find that stuff they will also sell little plastic horse shaped pieces 1/4" thick for under the window and 1/8" to go behind the lower flange. That allows water to get out from around the window.



or you can just make an X with your utility knife and fold the cut part over


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> yes,  but it would require offsetting the toilets
> 
> and that is never a good idea,  also would lose a closet



It wouldn't take that much of the closet, but if you don't think it would work fair enough, I just thought it would be easier than digging into the bathroom wall.


----------



## zannej

B2 is roughly 140" x 72 1/8".
B3 is roughly 140" x 110 3/8" (if you count the 34 3/4 x 29 3/4 area for the door).
B2 vanity runs all the way across the room (72 1/8") and is 24"D. The lav is centered around 36".
B3 vanity is 48"W x 22 1/2"D with lav in the center around 24". I believe the center of the drain is around 9 1/2" to 10" from the back wall (I forgot to measure drain front to back for other bathroom).
B2 toilet drain center is about 32" from the east wall and about 74 1/4 from the west wall.
B3 toilet drain center is about 17 1/4" from the east wall and approximately 41 3/4" from the edge of the vanity. No idea why they spaced it like that.
Here is a very rough diagram. I'll have to do a better one later.
Is it legible?

Editing bc I started the reply before I saw some of the posts.
Frodo, thank you! That is a great idea for wrapping the window.
Neal, did you mean horseshoe shaped? I'm trying to picture horse shaped plastic pieces and having a good chuckle.

Since my bro will be coming in on Tuesday, I'll be up in Alexandria so I might convince the mothership to let me pop in to HD to look around. They have riding carts so she can come in and ride around.

I'm fine with digging in to the wall behind the lav in B3 because I was thinking of building a box for a custom recessed medicine cabinet (if it will fit between the studs-- marking the studs when light conditions are better is probably my next task-- I can see where the panels join up and see the nails so it's fairly easy). I used some handy frog tape to hold my measuring tape in place while I measured a few things earlier, but I need more light in that bathroom. 

At this point I'm thinking of running the drain and vent for the toilet in B3 in to the wall with the tub's plumbing and running the one from B2 to the wall behind the vanity of B3 (since it seems to be closer to that wall. If the wall panel behind that lav gets ruined, I can put up some 4'W beadboard to cover it. But I think I will need to go look under the house for joist locations. I do know that one of them is directly under the tub overflow-- hence the notched joist for the trap.

I suppose with a worst-case-scenario, I could cut in to the wall behind the toilet in B3 (but the only walls I can cut into in B2 are the ones surrounding the tub or underneath the vanity).


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> or you can just make an X with your utility knife and fold the cut part over



That's been out of code for about 15 years and is the cause of many problems.
I know this is getting old but here it is again.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2VOrk1MuWY[/ame]


----------



## frodo

I know this is a weird request, but can you go back threw this 36 pages and delete crap we do not need
i would make going back looking for stuff a lot easier

i am looking for the tub and shower units you said you are using

btw,  that 1.5x1.25 reducing washer, it comes with the ptrap


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> That's been out of code for about 15 years and is the cause of many problems.
> I know this is getting old but here it is again.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2VOrk1MuWY



not here,  use what ever is easiest. be happy


----------



## nealtw

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005NZWHLW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005NZWHLW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



https://www.amazon.com/Nelson-Wood-Shims-16-Shim/dp/B000KKM20Q/ref=sr_1_1/156-2394312-3164343?ie=UTF8&qid=1490609939&sr=8-1&keywords=cedar+shims


LOL


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Nelson-Wood-Shims-16-Shim/dp/B000KKM20Q/ref=sr_1_1/156-2394312-3164343?ie=UTF8&qid=1490609939&sr=8-1&keywords=cedar+shims
> 
> 
> LOL



With the new system it is  excepted the water will find it's way between the window and the the rough framing so we water proof the rough framing and give the water a path out, so plastic is called for. 
I am taking about vinyl windows with a nailing fin.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> With the new system it is  excepted the water will find it's way between the window and the the rough framing so we water proof the rough framing and give the water a path out, so plastic is called for.
> I am taking about vinyl windows with a nailing fin.



i believe this is a preference type of thing

around here they use both


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> i believe this is a preference type of thing
> 
> around here they use both



It may not be deemed important but I believe it has been code from either 2002 or 2006.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> It may not be deemed important but I believe it has been code from either 2002 or 2006.



interesting, show me the code please


----------



## nealtw

https://www.lma.org/Docs/BOAL/LAAdoptPicture.pdf
http://rci-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2014-CTS-garry.pdf

You would have to find some one with copy of the local code to see how it is written but you can be sure it is there.


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> https://www.lma.org/Docs/BOAL/LAAdoptPicture.pdf
> http://rci-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2014-CTS-garry.pdf
> 
> You would have to find some one with copy of the local code to see how it is written but you can be sure it is there.



nope,  looked it up.  install windows as per manufactures instructions

i can show you lots of instructions that say use ceder shims

the house wrap,  nope, minimum is 15 lb felt, taped at joints
IRC

sections 7 and 6

i just wasted an hour


----------



## nealtw

1.
http://www.jeld-wen.com/images/stories/pdf/installation_instructions/jii001.pdf
2.
http://www.thompsoncreek.com/sites/default/files/uploads/tc_gwii_sheet_1209_a.pdf


----------



## frodo

nealtw said:


> 1.
> http://www.jeld-wen.com/images/stories/pdf/installation_instructions/jii001.pdf
> 2.
> http://www.thompsoncreek.com/sites/default/files/uploads/tc_gwii_sheet_1209_a.pdf



[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LThwsXMhwiQ"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LThwsXMhwiQ[/ame]


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycdgjUZf0H0"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycdgjUZf0H0[/ame]


depends on the window you set,  the code says,  as per manufactures recommendations
different manufactures have different  recommendations


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LThwsXMhwiQ
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycdgjUZf0H0
> 
> 
> depends on the window you set,  the code says,  as per manufactures recommendations
> different manufactures have different  recommendations



I did clarify that we were talking about vinyl windows with a fin.
Your second video is a variation of what I have been suggesting, thank you.


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> I know this is a weird request, but can you go back threw this 36 pages and delete crap we do not need
> i would make going back looking for stuff a lot easier
> 
> i am looking for the tub and shower units you said you are using
> 
> btw,  that 1.5x1.25 reducing washer, it comes with the ptrap



Sadly, I can't. I wish I could go back and delete but I'm not able to edit/delete older posts. An admin would have to do it. I can probably go back through the pages and make notes on which posts had good info and write that info down in my notes.

I need to look at my notes to see what tub and shower I plan to use and I think what I will do (if there is enough space) is make a post that has all of the pertinent info. I'm not great at making things concise, but I can give it a shot.
Aside from the rough blueprints/sketches with measurements and the fixtures being used (and their dimensions), what else do you need to know? 

Good to know about the reducing washer. I'll have to check a P-trap kit I got before and see if I can find that washer.

I really love that plumbing supply website you linked to me because pictures really help me.

Neal, cute little plastic horseshoes. I need to find the video again that talked about the shims they were using that would not compress or rot. 

I'm going to go watch that last window video Frodo posted and then I'll see about compiling data (once my cats get out from in front of my screen so I can see what the hell I'm typing).


----------



## nealtw

So, we always hope that once the window is sitting on 1/4" thick spacers we end up with a gap all around the window, we no longer fill that with insulation, we leave that gap for water to run out but we do seal the inside with foam backer rod and caulk.
https://www.todayshomeowner.com/video/how-to-caulk-wide-cracks/


----------



## nealtw

zannej said:


> Sadly, I can't. I wish I could go back and delete but I'm not able to edit/delete older posts. An admin would have to do it. I can probably go back through the pages and make notes on which posts had good info and write that info down in my notes.
> 
> I need to look at my notes to see what tub and shower I plan to use and I think what I will do (if there is enough space) is make a post that has all of the pertinent info. I'm not great at making things concise, but I can give it a shot.
> Aside from the rough blueprints/sketches with measurements and the fixtures being used (and their dimensions), what else do you need to know?
> 
> Good to know about the reducing washer. I'll have to check a P-trap kit I got before and see if I can find that washer.
> 
> I really love that plumbing supply website you linked to me because pictures really help me.
> 
> Neal, cute little plastic horseshoes. I need to find the video again that talked about the shims they were using that would not compress or rot.
> 
> I'm going to go watch that last window video Frodo posted and then I'll see about compiling data (once my cats get out from in front of my screen so I can see what the hell I'm typing).



I think you can delete or at least just replace the post with something like this.
.................

If you do that and find some of mine are an obstruction just let me know the numbers you don't need.


----------



## frodo

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=cultured+marble+showers+images&fr=yhs-mozilla-003&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-003&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fst.hzcdn.com%2Ffimgs%2Ff491fe690f39332b_8566-w500-h666-b0-p0--traditional-bathroom.jpg#id=5&iurl=https%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F564x%2Fca%2F3d%2F24%2Fca3d24ad4fa81b68d947580953d49d43.jpg&action=click

take a look at this product,  it is called cultured marble
it is man made marble,  
you can get it in any size you want, you can also have the shower pan made 59''  
you can put the drain  left right or center

for a shower pan, and walls it is around  $1000.00  

you can also use any tub you want and use this  as te surround

very easy to install,  it glues to the wall and the edges are sealed with silly cone


----------



## zannej

nealtw said:


> I think you can delete or at least just replace the post with something like this.
> .................
> 
> If you do that and find some of mine are an obstruction just let me know the numbers you don't need.





frodo said:


> https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs...24ad4fa81b68d947580953d49d43.jpg&action=click
> 
> take a look at this product,  it is called cultured marble
> it is man made marble,
> you can get it in any size you want, you can also have the shower pan made 59''
> you can put the drain  left right or center
> 
> for a shower pan, and walls it is around  $1000.00
> 
> you can also use any tub you want and use this  as te surround
> 
> very easy to install,  it glues to the wall and the edges are sealed with silly cone


Neal, I think only members who pay are able to edit or delete posts that are more than a week old. I'm not even sure which ones should be deleted-- there are so many... LOL. Thanks for the link to the video.

Frodo, thank you for that link. I plan to go with a Sterling direct-to-stud shower unit. There is a shower pan that has a flange and the walls snap on to it and it gets nailed directly to studs without needing caulk between the wall pieces and the shower pan. It's relatively lightweight and I think it costs around $700 or less. I have to find the one I was looking at again... (Mom didn't like the look of the cultured marble-- I showed it to her and she made a face. LOL). The Sterling shower unit comes with built in backers for grab bar installation.

I know what valve and lever I want for the shower and tubs, tub spouts, shower arms for the tubs, and showerheads for all shower and tubs. I'm leaning toward the Moen Magnetix line of showerheads that click in magnetically and I'm thinking the waterhill arm would give it nice distance from the wall and some decent height (although I could still get a less expensive one). I was thinking of getting nickel fixtures for the guest bath but then I saw the prices and decided that chrome will do fine. Mom wants a slidebar for her showerhead and I'm trying to pick a good one that the showerhead I like will fit on. When I do a sort of master post I will collect the info on which showerheads, surrounds, etc I'm leaning toward and have links to them.

The shower/tub surround I wanted for the guest bathroom is no longer being sold at HD and I think it is at Lowes but is more expensive than the same version that has the backers. And having the backers for later on is not a bad idea.

I have a good idea of what windows I want (assuming that window can be used as a replacement-- I'll have to talk to the people at HD again). 

I'm trying to pick doors for the bathroom and for the exterior. Need something that can have a cat door put in. 

And I just got total brainfreeze...

Edit: For the showers I'm thinking of going with Sterling Ensemble. One is 60x30x75.25 for $647. The other is 60x32x74.5 for $773.63.


----------



## frodo

sterling ?   ok...
look, those cheap things can be beefed up,  this is what you do.

rip the styrofoam off the bottom of the shower pan,  put a layer of roofing tar papr on the floor

dump 2 five gallon buckets of wet cement...not stiff   on the floor.

set the shower pan into the concrete, level  

for he walls,  figure out where you want your grab bars and nail up 2x6 behind the wall panels

also.  pack the walls with insulation,,,

on the front side edge   where the nail flange is. install a 2x4 sideways   to nail to

https://www.amazon.com/chrome-plated-brass-fitting-flange/dp/b0046a8912

use these for your shower rods,  buy a black threaded pipe and a cheap shower rod
put the cheap over the pipe,,,,you can do chin ups on it


----------



## zannej

Thanks Frodo.
The sterling ones don't have styrofoam on the bottom (at least not that I know of). This is what the bottom looks like: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





They suggested setting it in "mud" or on a felt pad. I plan to put down self-leveling flooring (and I'll make sure the mix is right this time) first and then put down an anti-slip rug mat or something.

The reason I was going for the ones with the built-in-backers was because the one without the backers was discontinued. I might be confusing the tub one with the shower though. I looked at the specs and realized I don't like the backer locations so I'm going to try look at the shower without the backers. I believe the tub one only comes with the backers now, which is annoying.

Been distracted since I've been having to take care of my bro and his dog and a tornado hit town last night. 

I'll try to compile the data later. (I know, I'm terrible about procrastinating).


----------



## slownsteady

Self-leveling for under the shower pan??? You know that stuff will just spread out and not fill gaps. unless you are planning some kind of dam for the area you will be pouring.


----------



## zannej

slownsteady said:


> Self-leveling for under the shower pan??? You know that stuff will just spread out and not fill gaps. unless you are planning some kind of dam for the area you will be pouring.


To clarify: I intend to level the entire floor of the room first (and make dams-- I've watched videos on how to do that) for places I don't want it to go-- like where I'm roughing in the plumbing in the floor. In videos I've watched, people put down wood blocks wrapped in moisture barrier tape and caulk along the edges--and caulk all along the perimeter of the room. That way, the whole floor should be level for when I place things and then I can just do the support board on the back wall for the tub edge (I know the term but am blanking on it), add in the 2x10s between studs (because I do not like the spacing for the backers on the surround kit), and find out if I can use a rug mat underneath.

Frodo, I finally remembered why I decided to go with the ones with the backers already: It costs about $90 more for the one WITHOUT the backers for some odd reason.

Meanwhile, I'm working on compiling the data for a master post with what I hope is the necessary info.


----------



## slownsteady

okay. I thought you were intending to set the shower base in the self leveling stuff. Now it makes more sense.


----------



## frodo

not wood blocks wraped in whatever

use 1 1/2'' thick  or what ever thickness you have your building  styrofoam  sheating is purrrfect

use that stuff then to remove just hit with hammer..or pour pvc cleaner on it  LOL   

for under tubs and showers    a 5 gallon bucket of quickqrete  is just right


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> not wood blocks wraped in whatever
> 
> use 1 1/2'' thick  or what ever thickness you have your building  styrofoam  sheating is purrrfect
> 
> use that stuff then to remove just hit with hammer..or pour pvc cleaner on it  LOL
> 
> for under tubs and showers    a 5 gallon bucket of quickqrete  is just right


maybe it's because I'm sick but I think I'm missing something. About the 1 1/2" thickness-- you're talking about supports for grab bars, right?
Not sure what you mean about the styrofoam sheeting-- sheathing? 

Oh, are you talking about self-leveling flooring? I'm confused... LOL.

Good idea on the quickcrete under the tub/ shower. Would it be necessary if I leveled the floor first? 

My brain is not wanting to cooperate with me-- I've been joking with my brother that he brought back Asian bird flu from the bird cafe in Japan.


----------



## frodo

the concrete undr the shower pan has nothing to do with level,
it is to take the flex out of the plastic, 
if you do not take the flex out, the pan will move and the drain start to leak.

the floor of the shower moves, the drain pipe does not move

that is a problem, the solution, is to set the pan in concrete, so it will no longer flex/move





zannej said:


> maybe it's because I'm sick but I think I'm missing something. About the 1 1/2" thickness-- you're talking about supports for grab bars, right?
> Not sure what you mean about the styrofoam sheeting-- sheathing?
> 
> Oh, are you talking about self-leveling flooring? I'm confused... LOL.
> 
> Good idea on the quickcrete under the tub/ shower. Would it be necessary if I leveled the floor first?
> 
> My brain is not wanting to cooperate with me-- I've been joking with my brother that he brought back Asian bird flu from the bird cafe in Japan.




the


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> the concrete undr the shower pan has nothing to do with level,
> it is to take the flex out of the plastic,
> if you do not take the flex out, the pan will move and the drain start to leak.
> 
> the floor of the shower moves, the drain pipe does not move
> 
> that is a problem, the solution, is to set the pan in concrete, so it will no longer fex


Ok. That makes sense. I know they say mortar or a felt pad-- and it has a plastic grid on the underside to prevent some of the flex-- but concrete might be a safer bet for holding it still. Thanks!

Brain is still meh. This flu is kicking my asterisk. I was going to take my brother to the urgent care clinic but another tornado hit right where we were going to drive through.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrff1E-XI3A[/ame]

Whoever posted that has not seen truly horrific damage. I survived a supertyphoon in Guam-- that damage is minimal in comparison.


----------



## zannej

I'm still working on the master post because I am still trying to decide on a few things and I have the attention span of a fruit fly. LOL.

I did change my mind on one thing though. I was planning to get the Moentrol Kingsley shower valves and trim for all three bathrooms. Bathrooms 2 and 3 currently have a two lever system. I'm still planning to change Bathroom 2 over to a single valve since I think it will be easier for Mom to use. And I want a single lever in Bathroom 1. Fewer holes to cut in the tub surrounds.

But, after seeing an online sale and making an impulse buy, I'm going to keep Bathroom 3 as a two-lever system. 

I know it may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I really like the whole white porcelain and I stumbled upon the Sign of the Crab Sacramento sets at PlumbingSupply. But I didn't like the tub spout or showerhead (didn't want them) and didn't like the words "hot" and "cold" on the levers. Since I didn't want to pay over $350 for the set and couldn't find a set without spout and/or showerhead, I looked around until I found the escutcheons and levers. I found that the diverter lever works just like the ones labeled hot and cold so I ordered two of them and two escutcheons. There was a weekend discount when I got them. Then I realized that I completely forgot that they will need cartridges to work. So, I'm now trying to figure out which cartridges I need.
The escutcheons are Sign of the Crab P0388C and the levers are Sign of the Crab P0214 (hot&cold were P0215).





I found a page with a list of cartridges and I think I've narrowed it down but am not certain.
There's the quarterturn ceramic cartridge PP245Q or PP0106Q. The plubmingsupply site has them for around $58 or so but I found them for $50 (not sure on shipping) at deabath.com (link goes to faucet parts list). 
I'm also trying to figure out if I will need additional parts. I just didn't think about it before so I'm kicking myself.


----------



## frodo

try not to buy a generic brand valve,  it makes it very hard to find parts down the road

or, buy a rebuild kit with the valve to use down the road

you can buy a delta valve,  with crappy handles and buy the ceramic handles from delta

I know we had this discussion before, but, I disagree with the plastic shower panels and the plastic tub


they look like crap.  lmo/  i'm a snob


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> try not to buy a generic brand valve,  it makes it very hard to find parts down the road
> 
> or, buy a rebuild kit with the valve to use down the road
> 
> you can buy a delta valve,  with crappy handles and buy the ceramic handles from delta
> 
> I know we had this discussion before, but, I disagree with the plastic shower panels and the plastic tub
> 
> 
> they look like crap.  lmo/  i'm a snob


Yeah. I shouldn't have bought the sign of the crab things. Impulse buy. I e-mailed the mfr for info-- still haven't heard back from them. I should have thought about that before I jumped the gun on the purchase. The cartridges have lifetime warranty-- so long as I have proof of purchase, if they ever go bad, I can get new ones for free from them-- so long as they are still in business. I believe they can use standard valves though. I wonder if I could have purchased Delta or Pfister or some other brand levers to fit on the escutcheons. If I can't get them to work I can sell them on the local swap shop site.

I think we have different tastes in the tub/shower things. It's cool. 
Honestly, the really high end nice things would be out-of-place in this hodgepodge house. The plastic ones look really nice to me considering what I've lived with has been an avocado green fiberglass fugly showertub unit and my tub's walls have the cheapest glue-up surround panels the tenants could find (after they ruined the wall with the mural). It's just fugly.

If I were moving in to a nice "forever home", I would probably want the higher end surrounds.


----------



## frodo

zannej said:


> Yeah. I shouldn't have bought the sign of the crab things. Impulse buy. I e-mailed the mfr for info-- still haven't heard back from them. I should have thought about that before I jumped the gun on the purchase. The cartridges have lifetime warranty-- so long as I have proof of purchase, if they ever go bad, I can get new ones for free from them-- so long as they are still in business. I believe they can use standard valves though. I wonder if I could have purchased Delta or Pfister or some other brand levers to fit on the escutcheons. If I can't get them to work I can sell them on the local swap shop site.
> 
> I think we have different tastes in the tub/shower things. It's cool.
> Honestly, the really high end nice things would be out-of-place in this hodgepodge house. The plastic ones look really nice to me considering what I've lived with has been an avocado green fiberglass fugly showertub unit and my tub's walls have the cheapest glue-up surround panels the tenants could find (after they ruined the wall with the mural). It's just fugly.
> 
> If I were moving in to a nice "forever home", I would probably want the higher end surrounds.



understood


----------



## zannej

I will say that on the Sterling Vikrell ones, I've heard they can be pretty sturdy-- someone had a house fire and the vikrell shower/tub survived with nary a mark on it. Didn't even have to be refinished. And they have a grid pattern on the bottoms of the tubs/showers to offer more support. 

On a side thing, I just remembered about the vacuum breaker thing for the handheld bidet sprayer thing. I'm trying to figure out what kind to get. I've seen "inline" and "external" and don't know what the difference is or where they would be installed. Would they attach right at the diverter or would they attach just below the sprayer attachment to the hose?
Inline example: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00125PZE8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
External example: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000F6BB2U/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Any thoughts on that?


----------



## frodo

zannej said:


> I will say that on the Sterling Vikrell ones, I've heard they can be pretty sturdy-- someone had a house fire and the vikrell shower/tub survived with nary a mark on it. Didn't even have to be refinished. And they have a grid pattern on the bottoms of the tubs/showers to offer more support.
> 
> On a side thing, I just remembered about the vacuum breaker thing for the handheld bidet sprayer thing. I'm trying to figure out what kind to get. I've seen "inline" and "external" and don't know what the difference is or where they would be installed. Would they attach right at the diverter or would they attach just below the sprayer attachment to the hose?
> Inline example: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00125PZE8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> External example: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000F6BB2U/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> Any thoughts on that?



the VB that you show can not be used where water is under pressure all the time
like under the toilet attached to the supply line.
they are used at the nipple on the shower head, where they are not exposed to pressure all the time

https://www.amazon.com/Aquaus-360-Bidet-Certified-Ergonomic/dp/B01CF51ZJ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1494665511&sr=8-1&keywords=aquas+360+bidet


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> the VB that you show can not be used where water is under pressure all the time
> like under the toilet attached to the supply line.
> they are used at the nipple on the shower head, where they are not exposed to pressure all the time
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01CF51ZJ2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



Ah. Ok. Well, I already have the sprayer but I don't think it has a built-in vacuum break. If I have to buy the vacuum break separately, which on would you recommend and where would I put it?

I intend to keep the water to the bidet off when not in use via the 3-way T-adapter.


----------



## frodo

zannej said:


> Ah. Ok. Well, I already have the sprayer but I don't think it has a built-in vacuum break. If I have to buy the vacuum break separately, which on would you recommend and where would I put it?
> 
> I intend to keep the water to the bidet off when not in use via the 3-way T-adapter.



need to know the hose size of the sprayer
i would put it after the shut off valve before the hose

so you need to know the size of those 2 threads


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> need to know the hose size of the sprayer
> i would put it after the shut off valve before the hose
> 
> so you need to know the size of those 2 threads



It will be 1/2" for the shut off and hose.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511KJKdXGKL._SL1000_.jpg

And I'm being picky so I'd like it chrome finish, but if I can't get it in chrome finish that will be ok.


----------



## frodo

sense you know you are going to install one, and your walls will be open
https://www.amazon.com/Apollo-3820206-Atmospheric-Vacuum-Breaker/dp/B000LDLTVK/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1494765820&sr=8-3&keywords=3%2F8+vacuum+breaker
i would use this type,  with the piping inside the wall


----------



## zannej

Thanks. I actually was not planning to move the water supply for the toilet and I was not planning to cut in to the wall behind and next to the toilet. I planned to cut the wall where the showerhead will be and the wall inside/behind and above the vanity.






Does this help?

I've already cut the hole in the floor and the sheet vinyl for the water supply from the floor.

If I'm going to keep the water to the sprayer turned off except when I go to use it, could I get away with using the Hansgrohe 06510000 External Vacuum Breaker?


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> sense you know you are going to install one, and your walls will be open
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000LDLTVK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> i would use this type,  with the piping inside the wall
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 14008



My brain didn't process the picture properly the first time I looked at it. Could I still use the atmospheric vacuum breaker on the braided steel or flexible hose inside the room instead of inside the wall?
Could I use this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/T-S-Brass-Vacuum-Breaker-1-2-Inlet-B-0969/100088418
OR https://hdsupplysolutions.com/shop/...pheric-vacuum-breaker-chrome-body-1-2-p620843 ?
Since it is 1/2" and screw it on to the tee adapter outlet and then run the hose from it to the sprayer?


----------



## frodo

zannej said:


> My brain didn't process the picture properly the first time I looked at it. Could I still use the atmospheric vacuum breaker on the braided steel or flexible hose inside the room instead of inside the wall?
> Could I use this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/T-S-Brass-Vacuum-Breaker-1-2-Inlet-B-0969/100088418
> OR https://hdsupplysolutions.com/shop/...pheric-vacuum-breaker-chrome-body-1-2-p620843 ?
> Since it is 1/2" and screw it on to the tee adapter outlet and then run the hose from it to the sprayer?



https://www.screencast.com/t/wuqsCtVwYR87

it need to be 6'' above the bowl/flood level


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> https://www.screencast.com/t/wuqsCtVwYR87
> 
> it need to be 6'' above the bowl/flood level


Ohhh! Ok! That makes sense.

And it needs to be oriented with the lid thingy at the top? 
Arrows indicate direction of flow to the sprayer?

I could find a way to mount the vacuum breaker to some sort of bracket or holder a few inches away from the wall (making sure it is stable) and then run flexible hose to it from the shutoff and more flexible house from its outlet to the sprayer. I'll have to find short enough hose.

But, basically, something like this?





Would you recommend any particular brand? I've seen Apollo and T&S.


----------



## frodo

exactly correct.  T&S,  love that soft ware  jelly I am  

for mounting.   if, you pipe it in the wall,  it will be mounted


----------



## zannej

frodo said:


> exactly correct.  T&S,  love that soft ware  jelly I am
> 
> for mounting.   if, you pipe it in the wall,  it will be mounted


What software? What I'm using to draw the stuff? It's MS Paint. I used shapes and lines and then color fill tool. I just used pencil and dragged the mouse for the hoses. I did take art class in high school so I learned a little about perspecive and shading, but I suck at it. Tub spout and levers ended up looking like a duck face though. LOL.

Hmm.. You know, I think 6-inches above the flood level is within that area where I painted and it didn't turn out so great. I've been thinking of covering it with beadboard. I could cut a chunk out of the paneling on the bottom part of that wall to access inside, and cover it with beadboard.

I want to make sure I get this right.. I would use the flexible steel braided hose from the 3-way, run it to the wall to the chrome nipple and escutcheon, then have solid pipe of some sort in the wall, and secure it somehow. Wall behind is the same 1/8" thick paneling (Did I mention the builders were so cheap they just put 1/8" thick paneling over the studs in the entire house?) so I'd probably have to put it against a stud if there is one close enough.

I know I'm asking for a lot of handholding, but do you have any links to the chrome nipples and elbows? And what would the loop be made from?

Also, because I got bored, I filled in more details (but didn't draw stuff being inside the wall).





I wonder if there would be a way for me to adapt the sign of the crab escutcheons to be put on the wall there-- but I think the top openings are too small. Would be cool if I could pull it off though. I'll have to post closeup pics of them showing measurements to see if there is a way to figure it out. I heard back from the mfr on the sign of the crab stuff and they sent me what I would need to make those escutcheons and levers work. I found the cartridges online but couldn't find the other stuff.




Cartridges I found for around $28 on doplumb.com but I can't find out the shipping info bc the page has errors and I don't want to order until I know I can find all of the parts and hopefully for cheaper. I also wonder if some of the stuff can be replaced with cheaper generic things. Also wondered if I could just use different levers that have more readily available parts for a lower price.

Meanwhile, I also sketched more on the layout for the plumbing. Still not finalized. I was too lazy to sketch the plumbing for the lavs in B2 and B3 but it's pretty much the same as the other lav.





What do you think?

And thank you so very much for helping me with this.

In a bit of good news, the less expensive tub/shower surround I wanted for B1 came back in stock. If it's still in stock next month, I might see if I can go buy it when my brother pays me his monthly installment for the loan for his truck. But I don't want to put the horse before the carriage and I need to fix up my bathroom to be usable first. So, getting the floor fixed and toilet installed take priority. I can do other finishing touches like the vanity light and tub surround later. Current one sucks, but is still ok. I really need to focus on one task at a time.


----------



## zannej

Cat stepped on my keyboard and erased my post. LOL.
Since I'm trying to stay off my feet while my ankle recovers, I've got a lot of stuff spinning around in my head.

I know some people can't load pdf files so I got images of some of the specs for the tub and shower units I plan to use. My problem is there are so many lines all so close together I have a hard time getting my brain to visualize it in 3D.

For B1 there is the Sterling Advantage.




Am I just blind, or does it not show how thick the edges of the tub are? I *think* the tub drain is 14-1/4" from the back wall (from the studs). I'm actually hoping to get the version of this without the backers so I won't have to worry about them conflicting with oddly placed studs. I know that one of the studs for the south wall is about 21-1/2" from the edge instead of 16".
Am I interpreting it correctly that the lip above the overflow is about 2-1/4" and the drain is 5-1/2" horizontally from the overflow & 7-3/4" from the side wall? Front tub lip is 3-1/2"? Surround walls 1-5/8" thick?

Then there is the shower for B2. Sterling Ensemble.




I was trying to figure out how much space was between the raised portions of the shower pan but fortunately Sterling CS answered my question about that. They said that the direct-to-stud walls are 1-5/8" thick and the front threshold is 3" wide; this leaves an interior measurement of approximately 56-3/4" L x 25-3/8" W for shower seat.
From what I can tell from the specs, the shower drain is 13-7/8" from the back wall & 8-1/2" from the side wall. And it looks like the minimum span from open studs from side to side is 60-1/8". Which means I'm going to have to notch the studs in the left wall a bit since it's only 59" with the super thin wall panels on.

Now my problem is figuring out what drain to get. I'm a bit confused by the measurements in their drawings. I know it will need a round drain, but I have no clue what drain to get other than that. I've asked about it but am still waiting for a response from Sterling. They will probably recommend a Kohler drain.

I'm going to try to accumulate a list of stuff to buy and figure out how much it is going to cost and then if it is too expensive, I will figure out where I can substitute cheaper stuff. My tastes in the fixtures is a bit pricey. LOL. There's a really cool Kohler PureFlo overflow cover and drain that requires the PureFlo overflow kit and both are over $40 each. I'll probably end up getting a Danco or something instead.

Also, just for fun, here are the specs on the toilet for all 3 bathrooms:





Edit: Found the specs for the tub-- although they are shown for the right-hand drain-- it's basically the same but mirrored.


----------



## zannej

Here is what I have so far of my "master post".

*Bathroom 1*
*Dimensions*: ~ 94.5"W x 61"Dx 104"H (~ 8'x 5' x 9'  suggest >=50CFM fan) 
*Bath Fan*: NuTone 665RP Heat-A-Ventlite 70CFM 4.0Sones 1500W fan w/ 100W bulb 4" duct (already purchased)
*Tub/Shower*: Sterling Advantage left drain 61030116-0 $547.76 http://www.homedepot.com/p/STERLING...-Left-Hand-Drain-inWhite-61030116-0/202952655
OR Sterling Advantage 61030110-0 $493.69 http://www.homedepot.com/p/STERLING...Left-Hand-Drain-in-White-61030110-0/202952648
*Showerhead*: Moen Attract 6-spray Magnetix hand shower & showerhead combo $88 http://www.homedepot.com/p/MOEN-Att...o-Kit-with-Magnetix-in-Chrome-26008/207032918 
*Shower Arm*: Moen Waterhill S113 or similar S-shaped arm https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012C5136/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
*Shower Trim Kit*: Moen Kingsley Moentrol T3111 w/ Moentrol 3570 CC valve http://www.moen.com/products/Kingsley/Kingsley_Chrome_MoentrolR_valve_trim/T3111 OR Moen 3510 IPS OR Moen 3520 CC (I want to avoid having to sweat copper).
*Tub Spout*: Moen Monticello 3807 (CC slip fit) or 3806 (IPS threaded) Diverter Spout http://www.moen.com/products/Monticello/Monticello_Chrome_diverter_spouts/3807
*Toilet*: Toto Drake 1.6GPF Model #CST744SG-01 $309.96 https://www.lowes.com/pd/TOTO-Drake...ted-Standard-Height-2-Piece-Toilet/1000094811 Specifications: https://68.media.tumblr.com/0f587dd6a29b99911ae9b5f4990f210b/tumblr_ono16aEYl81qkwd9ao1_1280.png
*Vanity*: Euro-Style vanity 26"Wx19"D. Already purchased. Will bump out from back wall about 2" to 3" & bump out from west side wall 3"). 
*Lavatory faucet*: Possibly Glacier Bay Mandouri high arc LED https://www.homedepot.com/p/Glacier...throom-Faucet-in-Chrome-67513W-6401/206390786
*Flooring*: sheet vinyl (not yet selected)
*Window*: 23.5"Wx35.5"H ~(2'x3') custom order Ply Gem single Hung vinyl window w/ screen & tempered glass $121 http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ply-Gem-23-5-in-x-35-5-in-Single-Hung-Vinyl-Window-White-510/204293170
*Door*: 32"x80" hollow core door prehung. (already purchased)
*Flooring*: sheet vinyl (not yet selected)
_Will get shims 1/4" thick for under the window and 1/8" to go behind the lower flange_
_Will build wall-mount medicine cabinet/mirror above vanity on south wall._
_GFCI 15amp outlet & light switch/rocker will be installed on west wall. Rocker will serve vanity light above medicine cabinet on south wall._
_Will build or purchase space saver for above toilet_
_Will fill in and cover hole for dryer vent on both interior and exterior_

*Bathroom 2*
*Dimensions*: ~ 140"W x 72.125"L x 104"H (~ 11.7'x6'x9' suggest ~90CFM fan) _Undecided on which fan to get._
*Bath Fan*: (still deciding) Currently has non-funcitonal Heat-A-Ventlite 
*Shower*: Sterling Ensemble Model #72170126-0 60x30x75.25 $767.29 Lowes https://www.lowes.com/pd/Sterling-E...-Actual-72-5000-in-x-60-in-x-30-in/1000160031 specs:https://68.media.tumblr.com/38ee8d16e6934ebb87e740b2a4049307/tumblr_onogmm4sO51qkwd9ao1_1280.png 
Back will face south exterior wall. Will be ~17" from edge of lav. Plumbing will go to west interior wall. 
*Showerhead*: Undecided
*Shower Arm*: Moen Slide Bar #A735 $76 (or similar cheaper one) http://www.homedepot.com/p/MOEN-Slide-Bar-in-Chrome-A735/202506284
*Shower Trim Kit*: Moen Kingsley Moentrol T3111
*Toilet*: Toto Drake 1.6GPF Model #CST744SG-01 (already installed)
*Vanity*: 72.125"x24" w/ lav in center. Will run trap arm to north wall behind vanity to B3.
*Lavatory faucet*: Aquasource 24151 high arc swivel spout
*Flooring*: sheet vinyl (already purchased)
*Window*: 23.5"Wx35.5"H ~(2'x3') 
_Will replace subfloor in room or at least under tub and toilet due to damage._
_Toilet drain center is about 32" from the east wall and about 74 1/4" from the west wall._
_Will add 2x10s in back wall of shower (east wall) to add 36" grab bar._
_Might change toggle switches for light/vent/fan to rocker switches_
_Might replace window with Ply Gem single hung http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ply-Gem-23-5-in-x-35-5-in-Single-Hung-Vinyl-Window-White-510/204293170_
_Sterling Ensemble The walls are 1-5/8" thick and the front threshold is 3" wide; this leaves an interior measurement of approximately 56-3/4" L x 25-3/8" W._

*Bathroom 3*
*Dimensions*: ~ 105.25"W x 80.625"L x 104"H plus 34.75" x 29.75" x 9  (~ 8.8'x6.7'x9' plus 2.9'x2.5'x9' suggest ~90CFM fan)
*Bath Fan*: (still deciding)  Currently has non-funcitonal Heat-A-Ventlite 
*Tub/shower*: cast iron 60"x? (Need to measure) Considering Vesuvia easy up adhesive walls $199 http://www.homedepot.com/p/Vesuvia-...Adhesive-Tub-Wall-in-White-39744-HD/202204836 (better than what I currently have)
*Showerhead*: Moen Attract 6-spray Magnetix hand shower & showerhead combo $88 http://www.homedepot.com/p/MOEN-Att...o-Kit-with-Magnetix-in-Chrome-26008/207032918 
*Shower Arm*: Moen Waterhill S113 or similar S-shaped arm https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012C5136/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
*Shower Trim Kit*: Sign of the Crab Sacremento 2-lever porcelain & chrome P0388C escutcheon http://www.homeclick.com/sign-of-th...cheon-with-brass-ring-in-chrome/p-458271.aspx
with P0214 levers http://www.homeclick.com/sign-of-the-crab-p0214-porcelain-diverter-handle/p-458217.aspx
*Tub Spout*: Moen Monticello 3807 (CC slip fit) or 3806 (IPS threaded) Diverter Spout http://www.moen.com/products/Monticello/Monticello_Chrome_diverter_spouts/3807
*Toilet*: Toto Drake 1.6GPF Model #CST744SG-01 (already purchased)
*Vanity*: 48"W x 22"D against south wall with edge against west wall
*Lavatory faucet*: Pfister Sonterra F-WL2-45pc #64758 high arch with porcelain levers https://www.lowes.com/pd/Pfister-So...rSense-Bathroom-Faucet-Drain-Included/4740756
*Vanity Light*: Derby Collection 20 3/4" Wide Chrome Bathroom Light Fixture - Style # 96197 (already purchased) will be on south wall. Plan to add switch next to GFCI 15amp outlet. 
*Flooring*: sheet vinyl (already installed)
*Window*: 23.5"Wx35.5"H ~(2'x3') (might replace with Ply Gem window)
_Need to figure out if existing valve/connection for spout is CC or IPS_
_Toilet drain center is about 17 1/4" from the east wall and approximately 41 3/4" from the edge of the vanity._
_Need to find correct cartridges/valves for shower levers_
_Will add shattaf with 3-way tee & vacuum breaker to toilet line for cleaning toilet_
_Will try to add rocker switch for vanity light next to existing GFCI outlet or will tie it to overhead light so both will be on at same time._
_Might change toggle switches for light/vent/fan to rocker switches_
_Might replace window with Ply Gem single hung http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ply-Gem-23-5-in-x-35-5-in-Single-Hung-Vinyl-Window-White-510/204293170_
_Will use existing mirror to make either recessed or wall/mount medicine cabinet (would prefer recessed if studs and plumbing allow)_
_Need to remedy notched floor joist under tub drain_
_First priority is to repair botched self-leveling flooring job and level the floor_

See http://cdn.houserepairtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13792&stc=1&d=1490602394 for layout of B2&B3.

*Laundry Room*
*Dimensions*: ~52"W x 72.5"L x 104"H (~4' x 6' x 9') usable space. With hallway 94.5"W (but trying not to block door to B1)
*Washing machine*: Electric Electrolux IQ touch on pedestal
*Dryer*: Electric Electrolux IQ touch on pedestal
*Window*: Ply Gem single Hung vinyl window http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ply-Gem-23-5-in-x-35-5-in-Single-Hung-Vinyl-Window-White-510/204293170
*Exterior Door: (undecided)
Will move wall outlets for washer & dryer from north wall of B1 to south wall of laundry room
Will put plumbing box for laundry on partial wall just north of washing machine next to exterior door
Will move ceiling fan from B1 to laundry room
Will make new hole in wall behind dryer for vent
Might make fold down table on south wall that can be used to fold clothing
Bin for lint will be between side of dryer & south wall
Back door Masonite 36x80 steel door $128.00 https://www.lowes.com/pd/Masonite-F...in-x-80-in-Actual-37-5-in-x-81-5-in/999918544 (already purchased during a special sale)

Kitchen
Dimensions: (Need to measure)
Sink: Double stainless steel with garbage disposal (right basin center ~39" from south wall)
Faucet: Currently a Delta higharc w/ side sprayer
Dishwasher: Freestanding/rolling junk- connects to sink faucet
Will eventually re-route drain from going east to west to go north to south to meet main soil pipe.*


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## frodo

good to see you finally nailed down your trim.


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## zannej

frodo said:


> good to see you finally nailed down your trim.


I'm waffling on some choices. It would cost over $200 I think for the parts I need (and I would need to special order them from Coburn's-- if they even let me) for the Sign of the Crab stuff. Unless I can find some universal valve bodies and use different cartridges, I will either have to abort that plan. I may go with the moen kingsley trim after all, although I might just have to find different levers. I think the current tub has 3 levers (one is a diverter).
I would love to figure out how to make the sign of the crab escutcheons work with different levers. I think I have info on that topic in another thread. If I can't make the escutcheons work for something in the shower, I wonder if I could repurpose them for something else. I need to find a way to make the porcelain part stay tight to the chrome trim.

I also need to decide between CC fittings or IPS. I know the IPS is threaded, but I don't know if either require sweating copper. And I need to figure out how to set things up for the bathtubs and overflow things. I have a general idea of what I want for the overflow stuff. Bad news is, Homedepot is out of stock on some of the tubs and surrounds I wanted and Lowes charges at least $200 more for things. The shower I wanted for my mother's bathroom is straight up discontinued at HD. Although, I wonder if they would still price match if I show them the screenshot.

I ran out of space to include stuff about the bidet sprayer in bathroom 3 (I had to cut a LOT of stuff out to fit it in a single post). Also ran out of space for alternative shower arm for B1 and B3-- This s-shaped one https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MNJJ66/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 that apparently comes with teflon tape. There was a cheaper one, but reviews said that one was flimsy.

Since my mother needs her shower done before the other things are done, I need to figure out what to get for her showerhead. The plan is to put a portable adjustable shower seat inside the shower (Sterling was kind enough to give me the inner dimensions so I would know how wide the leg base can be). Since she will be sitting, she wants a slidebar for the showerhead. The Moen 2-sprayer thing I wanted will not work on a slidebar. Anyone have much experience with installing slidebars? I'd consult someone at a store, but I've found that I tend to know more about plumbing than the employees do-- at least at the local places.

I'm also trying to keep track of the notes I was given on how to do water supply lines-- bridging some stuff with PEX-- and figuring out exactly what to use to hook it all up. Will need to figure out how far to stub out all of the rough-in plumbing to fit the trim and account for the depth of the shower surround walls.

And I still need to fix my bathroom floor. I think may just try to remove the luan piece I put in with the messed up stuff on it (if I can get it out) and put a new piece in and then find some way to smooth any difference in the seam (any suggestions)?

So, priority (right now)
1. Fix B3 floor & install toilet
2. Install new faucets in B2 & B3
3. Replace floor in B2, install vinyl sheet, & install new shower
4. Install shower/tub surround in B3
5. Replace laundry room floor, install finished floor of some sort, move appliances to laundry room and hook them up.
6. Install new back door
7. Replace floor in new B1 (if not done at same time as laundry room flooring)
8. Do electrical, replace window, rough in plumbing, install vinyl sheet, and install fixtures in B1.

Other than cosmetic stuff, the guest bathroom is lower on the priority list. B2 is the main concern, but B3 needs to at least have an active toilet while B2 is being worked on.

Edit: Forgot to update that we've already purchased the back door during a sale event. Just need a cat door (slightly larger than what we have so the fat little dog an squeeze through more easily) and she would like to get an awning of some sort. 

Wish I hadn't run out of space and had to delete stuff in master post. I was like 8k characters over.


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## frodo

.............


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## zannej

frodo said:


> .............


Thank you!

Do you think there would be any way to make the sign of the crab escutcheons work with different levers? (if I provide some measurements)? or do you think I'm s.o.l. on that front?


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## frodo

zannej said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Do you think there would be any way to make the sign of the crab escutcheons work with different levers? (if I provide some measurements)? or do you think I'm s.o.l. on that front?



I dont even try to get involved in making different stuff fit different stuff
it will make you pull your hair out.

only way i would do it, is if i had the valve in my hand while at the store
fitting the handles onto the stem.


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## zannej

frodo said:


> I dont even try to get involved in making different stuff fit different stuff
> it will make you pull your hair out.
> 
> only way i would do it, is if i had the valve in my hand while at the store
> fitting the handles onto the stem.


Thanks. 
That makes perfect sense. You'd need to be able to examine and compare in person.
Maybe I can sell it on craigslist or repurpose it then. LOL. I was thinking of using the escutcheons to mount something to a wall. Maybe make a wall-mount shower caddy (mounting above the surround) or something and use those as part of the anchors.


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## zannej

I just looked at some of the reviews for the lavatory faucet I was going to get. Realized it was made of plastic and had quite a few complaints about it breaking. So, my alternative is the Glacier Bay Mandouri high arc one with LED (don't care about the LED, but the style is nice and it has ceramic disc cartridges). https://www.homedepot.com/p/Glacier...throom-Faucet-in-Chrome-67513W-6401/206390786


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## frodo

zannej said:


> I just looked at some of the reviews for the lavatory faucet I was going to get. Realized it was made of plastic and had quite a few complaints about it breaking. So, my alternative is the Glacier Bay Mandouri high arc one with LED (don't care about the LED, but the style is nice and it has ceramic disc cartridges). https://www.homedepot.com/p/Glacier...throom-Faucet-in-Chrome-67513W-6401/206390786



glacier bay is crap, jmo      buy a moen or a delta

we had a storm,  lights been of for 2 days


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## zannej

frodo said:


> glacier bay is crap, jmo      buy a moen or a delta
> 
> we had a storm,  lights been of for 2 days


The Moen is what I was looking at, but it was apparently made of plastic and had plastic cartridges and people said it broke easily and had other issues. Is Pfister any good? My old faucet in my bathroom is Aquasource and I'm replacing it with Pfister (because it better matches the decor). My Delta kitchen faucet is garbage, but maybe because it was a low-end cheap one. Maybe I should just spend more $ and get a slightly more expensive Moen faucet. I like the high arc and swivel spout.  I like this faucet  but want it in chrome. The chrome version has porcelain handles. Weird thing is, the one I got with porcelain handles also came in a chrome handle version but is no longer listed on the site.

I'm going to keep looking-- maybe Lowes will have something. Thanks for the advice, btw! I really appreciate it.
Save​


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## slownsteady

Moen uses plastic cartridges in all (I think) faucets. I just developed a drip in my bathroom faucet that I installed in 2001. I called Moen, answered a few questions and they sent me two new cartridges *for free* under warranty. They aren't very hard to replace. Right now, I am a fan of Moen.


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## zannej

slownsteady said:


> Moen uses plastic cartridges in all (I think) faucets. I just developed a drip in my bathroom faucet that I installed in 2001. I called Moen, answered a few questions and they sent me two new cartridges *for free* under warranty. They aren't very hard to replace. Right now, I am a fan of Moen.


Ok. I actually had to replace ceramic disc cartridges in the Aquasource one-- probably because of the sediment in the water. So, if Moen can keep supplying the cartridges, it shouldn't be bad. One of the complaints people had though, as that the decorative base/flange thing was made of plastic and tended to break/crack. But, worst case scenario, I might be able to just use something metal and make it fit. Might end up going with that Moen Brantford or Banbury or whatever. I have the link somewhere. LOL.


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## zannej

One of these days I will get around to this project. Right now I'm on my own and need to clean up the area and do some demo, but the weather is not really conducive to that. I did go back and look at some of my videos of under the house and I believe that the wall behind the former lavatory is not resting on a joist. So, I should be able to move the existing plumbing in to the wall for the washing machine.

Additionally, I discovered that there are no inner walls for the linen closet between my bathroom and my mother's bathroom. The plumbing for my shower is in that closet-- looks like it's all PVC/CPVC. I wonder if the stuff in the wall for the original bathroom is copper or plastic.

Quick question I've probably asked before but can't remember the answer: How does one get a dryer connected to a rigid dryer duct when the dryer is being pushed against the wall the duct is on? I'll have maybe 11" of space to the right of the dryer (while facing it). Is there some sort of semi-rigid ducting I can use that has some flex but can't be easily destroyed/disconnected by cats or possoms? (the crappy weak stuff we had hooked up to our electric dryer is no longer intact due to a possom).


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## nealtw

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdRPbPfuS0s[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPwiNSOZBDY[/ame]


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdRPbPfuS0s
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPwiNSOZBDY


Thank you! That looks like it would be much easier than trying to mess with clamps and other crap. I wonder if I can re-use the old dryer vent ducting-- might be able to pull it out of the hole and fill in the hole with something. Can I stuff round wood cutouts in the holes, glue them in and use flashing tape on the outside and then replace the siding over the hole? (or use a blind cover of some sort?)

Gonna be fun putting a new hole in the wall, but it will be better in the long run than trying to run ducting to the existing one through a side wall and possibly interfering with the tub.


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## nealtw

zannej said:


> Thank you! That looks like it would be much easier than trying to mess with clamps and other crap. I wonder if I can re-use the old dryer vent ducting-- might be able to pull it out of the hole and fill in the hole with something. Can I stuff round wood cutouts in the holes, glue them in and use flashing tape on the outside and then replace the siding over the hole? (or use a blind cover of some sort?)
> 
> Gonna be fun putting a new hole in the wall, but it will be better in the long run than trying to run ducting to the existing one through a side wall and possibly interfering with the tub.



The quick and easy patch for lap siding is a piece of sheet metal tucked under the one above and tacked in place and paint.


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## slownsteady

As slick as mag vent looks, I think a couple of hose clamps is just as easy...maybe even easier.


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## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> As slick as mag vent looks, I think a couple of hose clamps is just as easy...maybe even easier.



It is really nice when you have stacks in a closet


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## zannej

I'm not sure how to use the hose clamps for it. LOL. The magnet thing looks very easy once it is set up properly though. I will have to remember to mark the spot for the vent very carefully before cutting the hole and so forth. Will need to add some sort of reinforcement around the hole inside the wall so it can hold it steady bc the interior wall will just be plywood or re-used 1/8" thick wood paneling across the studs (with insulation inside).


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## zannej

I was playing around with the layout for the plumbing for the laundry room in sketches and I started to question the decision to keep part of the wall to the bathroom on the north side. I'm starting to wonder if I could just fur out the wall behind the washing machine a tad & put the plumbing through there (with insulation behind it so it won't freeze), or have it inside a false wall or something along the back behind the washing machine. That way I don't have to worry about running in to something too solid above and below the exterior wall.

I was thinking about it because having that wall there might be awkward to get around when I need to access stuff behind the washer. I was thinking of keeping it so the plumbing could be closer to where it is now and so I wouldn't have to move the light switches and stuff-- but I could just move the light switch to the exterior wall or mount it on the side of a cabinet or something. 











What do you think?


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## nealtw

If you put the washer on the right you could put the plumbing in the wall back to back with the tub.
If you take that small wall out, the new switches would go to the outside wall near where the wall was. But not convenient to all the entrances to that room.


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## tuffy

I like neals idea.:agree:


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> If you put the washer on the right you could put the plumbing in the wall back to back with the tub.
> If you take that small wall out, the new switches would go to the outside wall near where the wall was. But not convenient to all the entrances to that room.


If I switched sides, I would have to figure out how to get the doors to the washer and dryer to swing the opposite way. I think it can be done, but it would be a pita. I would also probably lose that little corner space and the washer would be farther away from people bringing out laundry (although not by much). I liked the idea of having the washer so close to the door since I have a faucet right outside and can hose stuff down and then bring it in quickly to shove it in the washer. 

I had previously mentioned the idea of switching washer and dryer sides and my mother didn't like the idea bc of the door swing thing.

The current light switch is already awkward and I think it might be redundant. It is right near the exterior door so it would just be facing a different way a bit and I would replace the toggle with a rocker. I believe there is more than one switch in the hallway that controls the same light (in fact, I think one switch might be in the adjacent room as you enter). The other is near the back door so you can hit it when you come in and there is another switch for the broken outdoor light.

I need to get my hands on some 2" PVC pieces and do a mockup of the setup to see how much space it would take up if I had the trap arm about 4.25" or 4.5" long.

Maybe if I furred the wall out, I could have the light switch on the side of the bump so it is still in roughly the same spot.

Edit: I suggested the washer dryer side switch with my mother and she was highly opposed to the idea.


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## tuffy

O well it was worth a try . your mom sounds a lot like my wife.:rofl:


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## zannej

tuffy said:


> O well it was worth a try . your mom sounds a lot like my wife.:rofl:


LOL. Does she change her mind a lot and forget that she okayed something and start getting mad about it later and claim she wasn't ok with it and was against it?

Mine will say one thing one day and change her mind the next day but never admit that she'd had the opposite opinion. Like, she really liked a couch we got and had picked it out. Ended up changing her mind and not liking it when we got it home and would tell anyone and everyone that she had been opposed to getting it and told my father not to get it but he didn't listen. But I was there in the store when they got it. SHE picked it, not him.

I'm thinking that if I just bump the wall out far enough to have the light switches be perpendicular to the exterior door, it could still work. Just bumped forward a couple of inches. And that way the dryer's electrical outlet wouldn't need to be moved too far to plug in the dryer. Right now it is in a spot where I could just flip it to be on the other side of the wall and the cord could wrap around to reach (note to self: measure length of dryer cord).

Now that I think of it, I might not really even have to bump the wall out so much as create something where the washing machine plumbing box can attach in front of the wall and be hidden behind the washing machine. Directly on top of the box, I can hide it with cabinets. I can probably make some cabinets. I can do the meatball carpentry thing of making shelves first and then slapping up some face trim & vertical supports and then add doors.


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## slownsteady

Flipping the doors on most appliances is easy.


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## tuffy

Sounds about like her when shes off her meds . also sounds like you have a good plan now for your w/d set up now just stick with it.


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## zannej

tuffy said:


> Sounds about like her when shes off her meds . also sounds like you have a good plan now for your w/d set up now just stick with it.


Thanks! I think I will. I think what I'll do is have a small shelf that juts out just as far as the remaining wall piece that will be maybe 4 inches or so to have the wall switches. Shelf will catch things so they don't fall behind the washer from the top. Box will start below the top of the washing machine a little (but jut up enough that I can turn the levers for the water). I can notch the shelf or build it so shelving goes around the box to make it fit in. That way, instead of having just a bumped out wall, I'll have some functional storage space. The box will be recessed so the back is against the exterior wall so there will be space in front of it for the hoses. I'm thinking I can have a shelf behind the dryer too-- less chance of stuff falling behind that way. Then, the plumbing for the washing machine can still be somewhat near where it is now, but I will just move it over next to the exterior wall. I'll still have a cabinet above the box. I'll do cabinets that go all the way to the ceiling (like my kitchen cabinets). I'll have to draw up a sketch for it.


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## nealtw

zannej said:


> If I switched sides, I would have to figure out how to get the doors to the washer and dryer to swing the opposite way. I think it can be done, but it would be a pita. I would also probably lose that little corner space and the washer would be farther away from people bringing out laundry (although not by much). I liked the idea of having the washer so close to the door since I have a faucet right outside and can hose stuff down and then bring it in quickly to shove it in the washer.
> 
> I had previously mentioned the idea of switching washer and dryer sides and my mother didn't like the idea bc of the door swing thing.
> 
> The current light switch is already awkward and I think it might be redundant. It is right near the exterior door so it would just be facing a different way a bit and I would replace the toggle with a rocker. I believe there is more than one switch in the hallway that controls the same light (in fact, I think one switch might be in the adjacent room as you enter). The other is near the back door so you can hit it when you come in and there is another switch for the broken outdoor light.
> 
> I need to get my hands on some 2" PVC pieces and do a mockup of the setup to see how much space it would take up if I had the trap arm about 4.25" or 4.5" long.
> 
> Maybe if I furred the wall out, I could have the light switch on the side of the bump so it is still in roughly the same spot.
> 
> Edit: I suggested the washer dryer side switch with my mother and she was highly opposed to the idea.


 Put in stackables and you have room for sink and cupboards.
Our washer and dryer doors open the wrong way, can't say you get over the upset, but after while you just quit complaining 
In new construction it just goes in the best for the plumbing, like ours.

You can still put the plumbing next to the shower, the hoses will reach.


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> Put in stackables and you have room for sink and cupboards.
> Our washer and dryer doors open the wrong way, can't say you get over the upset, but after while you just quit complaining
> In new construction it just goes in the best for the plumbing, like ours.
> 
> You can still put the plumbing next to the shower, the hoses will reach.


We'd lose the pedestals if we stacked-- and trying to stack them would be a nightmare. LOL. I like the levels they are at with the pedestals because they aren't too low or too high.

We already have plumbing from the lavatory right near where the washer would go. The outlet for the dryer is already closer to where the dryer would go, although, the washing machine will be closer to the outlet box so moving the outlet while the walls are down and floors are torn up might not be as hard to do. It's just that it tends to be more convenient to have the washing machine right next to the door because it's fewer steps to walk if we rinse something outside with the hose-- although we are thinking of putting in a small deck back there with an awning over the door.

I think I would move the outlet for the washing machine or make a new one-- I need to do some work on the circuit box and get some new things in there and add a whole house surge protector somehow.

I finally got my brother to look at my sketches and he loved the idea (and he liked having the washing machine right next to the door). He did ask if it would be possible to add access to the bathroom straight from his room, but I explained how awkward that would be (and that I had played around with layouts that did that) and showed him how it would not work out well-- plus his bedroom wall is a load-bearing one. But he loved the idea of being able to walk out his door straight to the washer & dryer and just going around the corner to the bathroom. He's on board with helping me with the project now and said he'll even give me a little extra money on top of what he owes me for the loan to help pay for it.

Edit: I forgot to mention that on the south wall of the laundry room I plan to have a small sort of murphy table that folds down from the wall and lets us put laundry on it-- also thinking of having a fold down drying rack for stuff that can't be put in the dryer or that the dryer doesn't get completely dry. That is another reason why I wanted the dryer in that location-- it's closer to the folding area.

Here is a general sketch of the layout. I probably forgot stuff in the sketch... (I apparently forgot the toilet in the first version-- I've rectified that). What do you think?


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## zannej

I know I keep replying to my own post. LOL.
I started thinking (again) about my material list. With my room measurements I did the math to figure out what I would need for the flooring. Since there will be water and chances for spills (from washing machine & bathtub) and because of the humidity in the area, I want to go with pressure treated lumber.

I figure I need about four 3/4" 8x4 (or eight 3/4" 4x4) sheets and the same number of 1/4" sheets. I'm currently trying to figure out what I need for extra joist support (I want to make sure I have support at the edges in case there are no joists sticking out from under the perimeter walls). I've read that I can use either 2x8s or 2x10s. I was thinking for under the washing machine the 2x10s might work (or is that not necessary)? That will help me determine what joist hangers I will need.

I might temporarily take down the wall between the bathroom and laundry room (the one with the main vent stack) while I do the floor-- if it turns out to be feasible to do so.

I'm going to attempt to get the joists set up so the floor will be level. For any issues with floor seams, I am thinking of using drywall tape and mud/spackle or whatever it is so the surface will be smooth and not create bumps under the vinyl sheet.

I'm still trying to pick out some vinyl sheet-- I'll likely get some from either surplus warehouse or HD or Lowes. Stuff in the bathroom will be cheaper but I want to get something sturdy for the laundry room. I wanted to get Lifeproof Aged Birch, but it's not available in store and can't be shipped to me.


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## nealtw

zannej said:


> I know I keep replying to my own post. LOL.
> I started thinking (again) about my material list. With my room measurements I did the math to figure out what I would need for the flooring. Since there will be water and chances for spills (from washing machine & bathtub) and because of the humidity in the area, I want to go with pressure treated lumber.
> 
> I figure I need about four 3/4" 8x4 (or eight 3/4" 4x4) sheets and the same number of 1/4" sheets. I'm currently trying to figure out what I need for extra joist support (I want to make sure I have support at the edges in case there are no joists sticking out from under the perimeter walls). I've read that I can use either 2x8s or 2x10s. I was thinking for under the washing machine the 2x10s might work (or is that not necessary)? That will help me determine what joist hangers I will need.
> 
> I might temporarily take down the wall between the bathroom and laundry room (the one with the main vent stack) while I do the floor-- if it turns out to be feasible to do so.
> 
> I'm going to attempt to get the joists set up so the floor will be level. For any issues with floor seams, I am thinking of using drywall tape and mud/spackle or whatever it is so the surface will be smooth and not create bumps under the vinyl sheet.
> 
> I'm still trying to pick out some vinyl sheet-- I'll likely get some from either surplus warehouse or HD or Lowes. Stuff in the bathroom will be cheaper but I want to get something sturdy for the laundry room. I wanted to get Lifeproof Aged Birch, but it's not available in store and can't be shipped to me.


 You don't need pressure treated anything unless you want to keep insects out of stuff under the house but the rest of the house is not treated so mostly pointless.
You match the joists size to what you have. And you buy hangers to fit that size of joist..
subfloor want to match the thickness of the subfloor throughout the house if you can.
We like to use tongue and groove plywood for big areas, if not you will have to put blocks under the joints between the joists where the sheets meet. 
That is just so if one bends it wants the other to bend with it or stop the bend entirely.


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> You don't need pressure treated anything unless you want to keep insects out of stuff under the house but the rest of the house is not treated so mostly pointless.
> You match the joists size to what you have. And you buy hangers to fit that size of joist..
> subfloor want to match the thickness of the subfloor throughout the house if you can.
> We like to use tongue and groove plywood for big areas, if not you will have to put blocks under the joints between the joists where the sheets meet.
> That is just so if one bends it wants the other to bend with it or stop the bend entirely.


I believe that at least some of wood for the house is pressure treated and bugs are an issue. We have carpenter bees that like to bore in to things.
I wanted to get the tongue-and-groove plywood, but it's not listed as being available in my area. So, I was planning to make sure I have reinforcement under all of the joints.
I need to measure the joists to figure out the size. From the photos under the house I can't really tell.
I still need to cut a hole somewhere to figure out the thickness of the existing plywood.


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## zannej

So, I've been discussing the subfloor options on the flooring forum and I think I've picked what boards to use (at least for subfloor).
23/32 in. x 4 ft. x 8 ft. RTD Sheathing Syp
It's only 1/32" off from being 3/4".
They didn't have the treated ones available to my area and I found some ones rated to work as floors (they don't show the brand, but I believe they are Plytanium and should be CAT P1-09 or something like that). They do have that same thickness board in tongue-and-groove, but I didn't want to pay $6 more per board just for that.

For the top layer, I am waiting to find out what the current floor thickness is so I can try to match it, so I will have to wait for warmer weather to go poking around.  I also found out that I will need to stagger the top layer so the seams do not line up with the seams on the subfloor.

The thinnest one I found is 11/32 in. x 4 ft. x 8 ft. Rtd Southern Yellow Pine Plywood Sheathing. It's more than 1/4" thick so it would likely be sturdy enough.
I'm hoping that thickness will suffice since it's less expensive than the thicker ones.

I figure I could use Thompson's wood sealant on the subfloor boards but I would probably just leave the 2nd layer as is. Then I could put looselay vinyl sheet down on top.

The plan is to do things in stages. First I will tear out the current bathroom, floors and all. Get plumbing roughed in, vent hole cut in exterior wall, adjust the doorway to the new bathroom (bumping it over about 3" to 4" so the doorknob won't hit the wall when door swings in), adjust/run electrical for the new laundry room, paint the walls/replace wall panels, do the floor, and install the new door. Then I will move the laundry appliances and stuff in to the mostly finished space and then repeat the process with the new bathroom.


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## zannej

I updated my sketches for the latest plan. I couldn't find upper cabinets that looked right in sketchup so just imagine some uppers above the washer and dryer. I currently can't hide objects or walls because sketchup freezes whenever I click "edit". Probably because the vanity/sink is too high-poly & needs to be replaced.

I plan to put a shelf behind the back wall that will jut out about as far as the little stub-out for light switches. It will either extend all the way across the wall or terminate at the end of the dryer side. There will be a lower shelf under the rim of the window and some side-braces to prevent stuff from falling behind. There will be a fold-down table for folding laundry to the right of the dryer. I will have a bin for lint/trash in the corner next to the dryer. Not drawn in but I intend to have an access panel next to the bin (behind the shower) to shut off the water to the shower if need be.

I plan to put an anti-fatigue mat in front of the washer and dryer (the rug I put there was just a random one they had available for download-- I'll probably have a red or brown mat there instead). I'm still trying to figure out if I will have the power outlets for washer & dryer in the wall between bathroom and laundry (necessitating longer cords) or if I will have them be outside the wall below the shelves (in appropriate boxes) so they can be closer. I'm leaning toward having a plug box below the shelf next to the dryer so the plugs can be accessed more easily.

Bathroom will have double curved shower curtain rod-- outer rod will work as a towel rack to save wall space, space saver above toilet, medicine cabinet above lav, and a 2 or 3 bulb vanity light. 2-gang box with GFCI outlet and switch will be near the vanity (I need to figure out ideal height to avoid water splash but be easily accessible for plugging stuff in. There will be a shelf behind and against the wall to the side of the vanity to keep stuff from falling (and give extra counter space). I may use some plastic shower window trim on the shelves to keep them dry. Towel ring will be near vanity on the wall & toilet paper holder should mount to the side of the vanity-- but high enough up that it won't bump people's legs. I'm thinking one or two small trash bins should be in the bathroom-- either just one near the toilet or one near toilet and one near the door.

Mom just called and wants dinner. I'll have to finish my thoughts later.


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## zannej

For the fold-down table, I'm thinking something similar to the art desk from Ana-White's plans http://www.ana-white.com/2011/09/flip-down-wall-art-desk-0
But, instead of artwork, I want to have something more functional-- maybe something with hooks or a bar to hold stuff that can be hung up to dry.
I'm trying to figure out the best mechanism for holding the weight when it is in the down position. The table would be somewhere between 11" to 15" deep-- depending on how much space we end up with once the washer & dryer are put in. I wouldn't want to make the box it sits in too deep. I would want sturdier hinges instead of chains, and maybe something that can fold down and press against the wall at an angle to give additional support (I hope that makes sense).
Or maybe I could have a shelf at the bottom of the table that acts as a corbel/support when the table folds down..

I'm still deciding on the best hinges-- I want to make sure the table doesn't just drop down and slam. I want it fold a little slower, so maybe some hinges on the outer edge just at the corner might help, but the corbel/shelf would be an added support. I have no doubt that my fat cats will jump up on it. I should probably taper the edge of the table on the underside to give it more clearance as it folds down next to the dryer...

On the bright side, my brother loves my sketches, thinks google sketchup is "awesome", and loves the folding laundry table idea.


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## nealtw

Put a ledger on the exterior wall to catch the table and the other end have a coble type thingy on a hinge to the wall so you open that and drop the table then a piano hinge on the shelf would be plenty.


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## nealtw




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## zannej

Ooh, that would be a good idea! And in a pinch I could hang stuff off of it when the table is folded up. I could even do two of them that swing out to support the edges. Or I could make the part that attaches to the wall lower down and have the end piece stick up more to give clearance for a small shelf (with horizontal support put in the swinging bracket for stability) so I could still have a little shelf. I want to make sure it will survive if my brother puts any weight on it accidentally. Although, I'm seriously considering also just keeping a 2x4 handy so it can just be placed under it and touch the floor for support.If I could figure out how to attach old telescoping canes to the bottom that could be extended when it comes out and have the little rubber feet sit down on the floor it would be cool too. LOL. or maybe not the canes, but more like the adjustable height shower seats.

or something like this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002N5YF5Q/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
I could get 1, mount it sideways on the bottom when the table is up, then swing it out & extend it when I fold the table down.
Or I could get https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002N5YEZM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Editing again because I just saw something cool-- instead of folding down, I could have the table fold up! https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00D83OEEY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
There are customer photos of how to do it-- and I could still have a little shelf on top that goes flush against the wall when folded up & have the swing-out brace or a swing down leg.


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## nealtw

Or set the washer dryer on the floor and build a counter top above them. Extend it around to the door and have shelves to store towels for that bath. Or cut the hole in the wall and have those shelve facing the bathroom between the door and the tub. That would add 4" to the depth of the shelves.


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## zannej

I have a bad back so I need the pedestals. I always hated bending down in to the machines without pedestals. They are just too low.
But, I am thinking a combo of that swing-out arm for center support &  those brackets would be good. I would just have to make sure that the arm doesn't hit the wall supports (which I believe should be 2x8s). I'll have to figure out some way to lock the arm in place once it is out.
I don't have to make the table a uniform rectangle. I can notch it and have it stick out more once it is clear of the dryer for a little extra space (but I'd have to see everything in the space to make sure it wouldn't interfere with the dryer door).
With the table folding up from the lower part, it will free up space up high for cabinets, shelves, or drying racks.

Also, I'm trying to figure out the best way to wire the vent fan/light/heater. I want to us a triplex rocker switch (3 rockers that fit in a single gang box). I know the hot goes in on one side and that the "loads" connect on the other side (with the ground connecting to the green screw on the switch. To make sure I understand it properly, the black (hot) wires from the switch go to the fan, light, & heater respectively but the neutral wires bypass the switch & go directly to the respective parts? Since the white (neutral) wires would enter the box, would I use a wire nut to tether them all together in the switch box & then have them continue on to the fixture?

I'm confused about the ground though. The diagram for the switch doesn't show the ground going anywhere-- just terminating at the switch. Would the ground setup depend on the light fixture?


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## nealtw

All the ground tie together as well as going to he green screw and all the whites get nutted too.  Might need more cubic inch box.
You could check code but there is 14/4 romex  where you have white and three coloured wires one for each line.


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## zannej

So, the green from the source and the green from the light get joined together and then attach to the green screw?
I'll need to see what sort of wire we currently have for the existing vent/light/heater. It's old wiring and will probably need to be replaced, but at least I can see what it is to know what to look for. And I'll have to open the box for the replacement vent/light/heater and take a look at the instructions and wires that it has. It's entirely possible that the existing installed one doesn't have the right type of wiring.


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## zannej

I found out the windows I wanted to get are no longer available. I found some at Lowes that can be custom ordered with tempered glass. I'm sort of leaning toward a window with a grid (to match the kitchen window)- but also just in case it adds a little more stability. Only issue is it says they are for mobile homes (although the CS person from Lowes said it can be used for a house as well). I'm still waiting to find out if they can be placed in a shower. I've narrowed it down to 3 options. Two of them have windows that slide up & one tilts open. I'm not sure if a tilt window would be good-- had some in Guam that were rated for a bomb shelter but I never opened them.
This is the comparison (if it works). 
It would probably be an extra $10 to $20 for tempered glass.


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## zannej

It's raining, everyone else is asleep, and I'm bored. So, I'm thinking about the fittings I will need for this project. I was thinking I would need new ceiling tiles, but then I realized that we might have shiplap ceiling (a tile fell in the kitchen and there is shiplap visible). I just don't know if there will be gaps in the ceiling where the bathroom walls are currently. I'm hoping there won't be gaps and that it will all be ok. Plan B is to use some decorative trim or something used on ceilings to create some shapes or something to hide any gaps. Something like this maybe (but not very thick or fancy)



Existing shiplap (if there is any-- and I hope there is) will get a fresh coat of paint. 

Aesthetics aside, I've been thinking about the plumbing. I know the tub will have 1-1/2" drain, but I'm wondering if I an use a coupling to have a 2" trap plus a 2" hub elbow to see if it will improve drainage any. Although, it might make things an even tighter fit than they already are and the main vent is very close by, but, I could always run an auxiliary vent for the tub inside the wall and then have it meet up with the existing vent. I'm still trying to figure out the best spot to tie in the washing machine drain so the force of the water/air won't siphon water out of the tub trap.

I think the rough-in tub overflow kit I had flagged as wanting is no longer for sale, so I will have to find a good one. I've seen some that were slip joint, but I think that would be a bad idea.

I'm thinking of getting an access panel for walls to fit behind the plumbing for the tub (amazon customers posted pictures of using it just for that). I know it is pricey, but it might be easier than trying to make a plywood panel that has to be screwed on.


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## tuffy

I really think your ceiling would look really nice if you did something like that.I also think a 2 inch drain assembly would definitely make things flow better. and i would definitely get an access panel mine has made my life a lot easier.


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## zannej

Thanks, Tuffy!
I wonder how it would look on a shiplap ceiling... I was thinking some 1x4 lumber would suffice for the ceiling pattern. Lowes has some already primed. I was also pricing out the lumber to build the shelves and cabinets. For the medicine cabinet I'm thinking 1x4 pine, for the folding shelf some 1x12 pine. I found some cedar for something, but can't remember what I wanted to use it for. LOL. I will probably go with plywood for the upper cabinets and some pine for the trim/face parts. I intend to paint the cabinets & shelves with an easy-to-clean white paint. I normally do like the medium reddish wood tones, but for small spaces like that, I want white to make the space look larger. I'm hoping to re-use some of the remaining shiplap on the walls.
If I do some 1x4s on the ceiling (the actual size is something like 3/4" instead of 1") I can use some 3/4" quarter round for the edges. I'll just have to examine the ceiling more to make sure it doesn't look awkward with the attic access panel. Reminds me I still need to get that Werner attic ladder installed. It's just sitting in a box somewhere for now.

I've been thinking about the medicine cabinet/bathroom mirror. I have an existing medicine cabinet that fits in the wall & I have the mirror that matches the vanity. I was going to use that mirror in my bathroom and make one for the guest bath. But, it is a *huge* mirror and might prove too heavy to be a door for a medicine cabinet. So, maybe I can just put that mirror on the wall over the vanity in the guest bath with the medicine cabinet recessed in the interior wall to the side of it, or in the wall across from the toilet. If I put it across from the toilet over a trash bin, my brother can shave there. He currently shaves using the small mirror on the inside of a bathroom cabinet door, leaves hair all over the floor, and forgets to close the damn door. Then I can build a medicine cabinet for my own bathroom and move the small existing mirror to another spot.

I'm also thinking of temporarily using AAVs instead of tying in to the main vent stack-- at least until I have the resources to do it properly. It would be better than the S-traps. I found some Oatey AAVs that claim to have positive and negative pressure.


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## tuffy

I think every you have described makes sense in my book any way i think its going to turn out super nice something you can be proud and say to your guests yea i did that!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## zannej

Thanks! It helps to get encouragement. We don't have guests over often, but it will be great for them to get to use a bathroom without going through someone's bedroom. Right now the only operational bathroom is Mom's ensuite. Sometimes the cats run in and then I have to play the game of trying to catch them and get them down without them knocking stuff over-- Rupert likes to get on a shelf and knock over my brother's electric razor.
I really want to get the space organized better. Right now it is a complete mess-- full of my brother's laundry and junk.


The computer case is being used to hold the door closed bc it won't stay shut.



Not sure if those orange handled clippers are any good. Guy who was doing some yard work for us used them and left them out in the grass so I think they rusted. Not sure what the red-handled thing is, but I think it might be a broom or dust pan.



 This is what the ceiling looks like in the kitchen.





 And this is in the hallway leading to the laundry room and around the bathroom. I can see some boards where the ceiling tiles fell down. It looks similar to what is in the kitchen but not quite the same. There are gaps. So maybe it's just painted boards rather than shiplap. Yellow wall panels are the original walls of the house (at least it's what was there when we moved in). The visible bare ceiling is just above the exterior door.

I'll have to pull the staples out, sand it, and give it a nice fresh coat of paint.

Just had such bad gastritis it hurt all the way through my back and shoulderblades and made me forget what I was talking about.


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## mabloodhound

That small exposed portion of the ceiling is NOT shiplap; it is tongue and groove boarding often used as porch decking.  You may like that look and only you can decide if the work involved is worth tearing down the panels, etc.

Dave Mason


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## zannej

Thanks, madbloodhound. The ceiling pieces are already falling and I can see there are gaps in the tiles where the wall that is going to be removed touches the top. So, I will need to take it down anyway.
I'm thinking I can do a simpler wood pattern on the ceiling like this:

but with the boards so it will look more like this (but with everything painted white)


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## zannej

I feel somewhat comfortable with my ideas for the DWV system. I'm planning to temporarily use 2 AAVs to avoid having to cut through the exterior wall. Although, one will actually be in the kitchen under the sink because that S-trap is just aggravating. The other AAV will be for the lav and toilet. Toilet vent will come up and merge with lav vent & have an AAV (which will be hidden but still have airflow and be accessible). I'm still quibbling with myself on the exact placement of the pipe with the AAV.

For the washing machine, I'm going to run the trap arm behind the washer and then have a vent go up just after it gets out from behind the dryer, it will go up to about 6" above the top of the standpipe and then run horizontal to tie in to the main vent stack. Although, technically, if it is less than 8', I might be able to get away with just running the trap arm to the main vent stack. Due to the positioning of the main vent, I will probably have to run the trap arm for the tub/shower west a bit and then have the vent come up and have an elbow to run back to meet with the main vent.

I have a diagram of the parts I think I will need (any suggestions of modifications are welcome). I based it on what parts I could actually find for sale & I may change my mind again. I want to have the most efficient use of parts. I should have specified that all of the cleanouts will be 3". (Do I need any cleanouts in different spots?)



When I did my water supply diagram, I forgot about the old washing machine water lines. Instead of moving the shower lines, I might be able to eliminate the shower lines & just divert the washing machine lines over since it might be a shorter distance.


Since some of the lines will be moved closer to the edge of the house, they will be more vulnerable to cold. I will wrap them in insulation and I'm thinking of getting those cheap foil insulation blankets that they sell in the camping section and putting some up near the skirting and covering the skirtless part to keep warmer air in and colder air out. For the skirtless part, it can be moved aside if we need to climb under to access it.

I don't want a repeat of the pipes bursting again. Also, because PVC is no longer allowed above ground and all of my cold water supply lines are currently PVC, I am thinking of transitioning to PEX. I have 3/4" PVC & CPVC so I'm thinking of going with 3/4" PEX. I'm currently looking in to the options and trying to decide between PEX-A and PEX-B. I'm also trying to decide on fittings. The crimping tools look expensive and I don't know if I have the hand strength to use them (unless they've made them easier to use than shown in some of the youtube videos). I'm also concerned that if I try to use expansion fittings that my lack of coordination may lead to just ruining the ends of the PEX by overstretching or not being able to get it to go over, but I haven't ruled it out. Even though it will reduce the inside diameter a bit at some parts that merge, I'm thinking of using the sharkbite fittings.

1. Which is more secure? Sharkbite (push-fit) or Expansion?
2. Do I need check valves on my water supply lines for the washing machine?
3. Can I have a check valve on the toilet water supply line?
4. Where would check valves be installed and do they need to be accessible?
5. Can I run PEX from the shower valve to the tub spout? (I plan to get an IPS valve rather than a CC one)
6. For the IPS valve, what sort of bonding material do I need to use on threaded connections? (pipe dope?)
7. How hard is it to convert from a 2 handle shower system to one handle pressure balancing/temp control system?
8. Can I use the existing metal piping from the old shower and use some sort of couplings to link the metal to PEX to go from the showerhead to the moentrol valve?


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## zannej

Revised picture:


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## zannej

Since I can't edit my posts for some reason, I just had another thought. I was thinking of tying the toilet drain in with the lavatory drain but that would mean it would be inside a load-bearing wall. Neal mentioned that there might be something in the bottom of the wall that would make it so I couldn't drill through. So, revised idea:
*Kitchen drain runs north to south toward the main soil pipe. Vent for it would be an AAV.
*Washing machine standpipe would run behind the dryer and then up above the shelf where a cleanout could be hidden inside a cabinet. The vent would then take a turn to run toward the main vent line and tie in there.
*Tub drain would vent inside the wall, tying in to the main vent.
*Toilet drain would run south to north, venting up in to that non load-bearing wall and tying in to the main soil pipe. A combo wye with cleanout would be under the closet flange.
*Lavatory would have an AAV (at least temporarily) and be under the cabinet rather than inside the wall in a special box with a grill cover. The drain line would have a cleanout at the south end and the line would run south to north to meet up with the main soil pipe. I could use 2" pipe instead of 3" for that line then and use a reducing combo wye to tie it in.

I will try to get some diagrams up later. But how does that sound? (I know AAVs don't sound great, but better than no vents at all). The lazy part of me is seriously thinking of tying the lav in to the existing line directly underneath it where it is roughed in and letting it run to what is presumably a french drain or something.

I think I've changed my mind about the medicine cabinet above the sink-- since it would stick out and block the vanity light somewhat. We already have an existing medicine cabinet that can be re-used so I'm trying to figure out where to put it. Options are, either in the load-bearing wall on the side of the vanity, but positioned so it won't hit the other mirror when it opens, or across from the toilet. If it is across from the toilet and above a trash bin, my brother could shave there instead of over the sink so hair wouldn't be going down the sink.

Any thoughts?


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## zannej

Revised DWV sketch. 
The main soil pipe is at least 12" from the vent because it started directly under the original toilet and ran east to west to the septic tank. The original main vent that goes out through the roof is inside the shared wall.

Since I want to have a 2" trap on the tub, I will use the 1.5" tee that comes with an overflow/drain kit to use elsewhere and replace it with a reducing tee that has the top and side outlet at 1.5" and the bottom at 2". The cleanout for the standpipe vent will actually be on the front instead of the side as drawn.

What fitting is used for when a vent goes up before the drain goes down? Can I use a sanitary tee on it's back with the sweep going upward in the direction of the vent?


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## zannej

I decided that it might save some pipe if I merge the lav drain with the toilet drain, but I realized I can't do that until after the toilet vents. Since the toilet is on the exterior wall, I could run the vent under the house behind it (I have 3 options for that) and the lav could tie in to the toilet line nearby.

I'm trying to decide on the best option for my toilet setup though. Which option do you think is the best?


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## nealtw

You can run the vent up the outside wall.


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## zannej

Thanks! That's the current plan. I'm just trying to figure out the best fitting combo to make it happen. If the vent pipes I have on the other side of my house (that I will be removing) are the right size, I can just use them. Hell, even if they are 3" I can still use them and just use 3" fittings instead of reducing fittings. They already have the support straps, screws, and are the right size to get around the soffit. If the vent ends up having to be taller to reach the soffit, I can always add an extension piece.


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## zannej

Someone pointed out to me that options B and C would be running a vent horizontally below the flood level. So, it looks like I'll have to go with option A.


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## mabloodhound

First, I  don't see a horizontal vent in either plan.  Second, if a flood were to get as high as your vents the house would be a total anyways.


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## zannej

mabloodhound said:


> First, I  don't see a horizontal vent in either plan.  Second, if a flood were to get as high as your vents the house would be a total anyways.


"Flood level" doesn't mean an actual outdoor flood. It means the highest level at which a fixture fills before it overflows.
In B the vent starts at the side outlet of the wye. It is running horizontal before it has the upward bend. Same with C only it has a tee instead of a wye. Those two setups would allow water to flow in to the vent and block the air.


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## mabloodhound

OK, that makes sense but in going back to your diagrams I presume all your vents are drawn in "gray" color and I don't see any horizontal that would be below a fixture overflow.  But that's OK as it seems that you know what you're doing.


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## zannej

mabloodhound said:


> OK, that makes sense but in going back to your diagrams I presume all your vents are drawn in "gray" color and I don't see any horizontal that would be below a fixture overflow.  But that's OK as it seems that you know what you're doing.


Yes. I drew all of the vents in gray. 
Ah, I was talking about the little image of the toilet drain options. The diagram of the full plan has option A drawn in.
Option C is how my current original toilet is connected (sanitary tee under the toilet flange). It goes from PVC to a reducing Fernco fitting that doesn't have straps.
I hope I know what I'm doing. LOL. Thank you for the feedback, I really appreciate it.


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## zannej

I used the previous sketch to put together one that has the fittings pasted in. Due to limitations in the angles of the photos, sizes, etc, it is not to scale and the angles aren't right.
The oddly positioned vent 90 is horizontal going around a corner in to the wall.






I do have a question about the cleanout on the laundry drain: What sort of tee do I need? Can I use a "test tee"?
I found one here: http://www.holmessupply.com/productdetailI2.aspx?dataid=71320(50)

I have had trouble finding good angles on photos of the washing machine vents/drains that have cleanouts.

Is that the correct fitting? If not, what do I need?


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## nealtw

Out and around the soffit, I would go straight out the roof or go across the attic to the other vent.


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## zannej

nealtw said:


> Out and around the soffit, I would go straight out the roof or go across the attic to the other vent.


I know it isn't ideal, but I'm not comfortable with poking holes in the roof (which is metal) and it would be more difficult to go through the attic. Plus, I already have the vent pipe and the ties for a useless vent on the west side of the house. I can re-use it. Although, I will probably paint it white to protect it from the sun.

I'm still not sure on the cleanout for the washing machine though.


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## zannej

Frodo answered me on the plumbing forums. He said I need a 2"x2"x1.5" sanitary tee (sweeping downward) with a cleanout welded to the inlet. He recommended heights and confirmed for me that the standpipe P-trap needs to be solvent welded. He also said that the washing machine drain needs to tie in at least 5' away from the other fixtures to avoid suds bubbling up into them. I'm not sure if that is somewhere in plumbing code or just a recommendation.


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## zannej

So, the good news is that my mother is completely on board with the reno now and is willing to pay for it herself (rather than have me pay for it) so the budget can be expanded a little more. 

We were thinking of getting a flooring from Samsclub that looked good in person. After calculating the wear layer (they gave it in mm) I saw that it's only 12mil, it has no underlayment, & with tax & shipping it is almost $300 for 7 boxes (which is what I would need to cover the laundry room). I recently saw that HD had a nicer flooring on sale. It would take 5 boxes w/ free shipping & even with tax it would come out cheaper than the Sam's stuff. Additionally, it's waterproof, has a waterproof built-in underlayment, and a 20mil wear layer. Trim pieces are available on the mfr's website.

On HD it's called MSI Herritage Antique Mahogany but on the MSI website it is called Prescott Braly. I'm trying to figure out which (if any) of the trims I would need. I'm thinking the reducer piece might work to go from the vinyl plank to the vinyl sheet in the bathroom doorway. I can just re-use the existing thresholds in the doorway that transitions to carpet. Another reducer might be in order for the transition to the inside of the closet. I'm also not sure what I would need to transition ot the kitchen which currently has the ruined wood parquet. If Mom likes this stuff enough, we might consider using it in the kitchen.


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## slownsteady

If there is a height difference where the two floors meet, then you want a reducer, which has a high side and a low side. If the floors are even where they meet, then a t-molding is fine. Of course you can reuse the thresholds you already have if they can lay flat enough. The transitions at HD are about 6 ft long, so generally you can get two doorways from a single piece.


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## slownsteady

Don't forget that the vinyl planks need a 1/4 inch gap where they meet the walls. You need to cover that with a molding...either a 1/4 round that matches the floor or something you can paint to match the walls


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## zannej

Thanks, slownsteady. That's what I was thinking. I figured I would need mostly reducers, although we will have to see how things go with the exterior door in terms of how it sits and with the height of the kitchen floor. I wonder if I have enough leftover sheet vinyl scrap for my bathroom to put in the little closet.

I'm also still trying to figure out what the best anti-vibration pads would be to use under the washer & dryer. Not only would it prevent any sliding/walking & protect the floor form the feet, but reducing the vibrations would be good. When I choose sheet vinyl for the bathroom, I wonder if I can safely glue some of it to a cheap reducer to make it match the floor. Has anyone here ever done that? (I want loose-lay  sheet vinyl or something that is optional for gluing).

All of the transitions in my house are just t-molding style or metal strips that got screwed down. I want to have something that is easier for my mother's walker to go over.

Of course, I still need to sort out the subfloor & figure out if there is a way to level things at the joists without too much trouble. The house sunk a bit toward the kitchen (north side of the house). The bathroom might be easier to level since it's smaller. At the very least I want to level it where the washing machine and dryer will go. I will probably do extra reinforcing under that area with some 2x8s or 2x10s just to make sure it's sturdy.

Edit: just saw the comment about the molding. I'm planning to go with just white vinyl/pvc baseboard or shoe molding. I want the walls to be white to make it feel brighter.


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## zannej

I read the instructions for the vinyl plank we purchased. It requires only a 1/8" gap at walls. If round 2 of patch leveling goes ok in my bathroom, I may use the same type to level the floor for the laundry room. Right now I'm working on my bathroom. Got the botched leveling job tidied up a bit with an angle grinder. Friend will be coming back Thursday to help me with a 2nd attempt with a freshly purchased batch of leveling compound. It won't have to be very thick & I'm mostly concerned with getting it level where the toilet & chest of drawers will sit. For the rest, I just want it to be smooth so it won't have bumps transferring through the sheet vinyl.

I found the tub spout I wanted for my bathtub new in box for $26 (It's normally $52). Also ordered the Delta Multichoice valve & Delta Lahara 17 trim. It allows for temperature & pressure to be adjusted separately- it has stacked levers with one being larger than the other-- kind of like clock hands in a way. I'm also planning to get the Delta Classic 400 surround for my tub. It doesn't require a specific tub & Delta CS said it should fit my tub. It's direct-to-stud but I may have to add shims to make sure it fits square/straight. I'm hoping the plumbing in the closet won't be too difficult to mess with. Right now it has PVC & CPVC but I want to go to PEX to allow for a little more wiggle room with moving the valve forward or backward to make sure the trim kit will fit correctly.

I still need to find some sort of pvc/vinyl baseboard (not the ugly glue-up kind in commercial bathrooms) & shoe molding. And I need to get some sort of wainscoting for the lower part of my wall bc the panel started coming apart over 10" up the wall. I can cover it with wainscoting & then add a small trim to the top- trying to figure out what kind is best. We might get a Skil flooring saw that can do miter cuts that would be awesome. But, trim can wait bc the priority is getting the floor leveled & sheet vinyl straightened out and tacked down with the acrylic doublesided tape & then get the toilet in. Once we have a 2nd toilet, we will be able to work on the adjacent bathroom w/o worrying about rushing too much. I think the way to tackle that floor will be to remove the old subfloor closer to the vanity first (after moving all of the stuff over toward the tub & out of the way. Once that is in & secured, we can move everything over on top of it, tear out the fugly avocado green tub, get the plumbing roughed in for the new shower, pull up & replace the rest of the subfloor, install the new shower, move everything out of the way again, put in the sheet vinyl, secure it, & put the toilet back on. The tall cabinet is going to be a total pain to move around.

I forgot the part about needing to cut the wall panel in the adjacent green bathroom to add plumbing vents. While looking at photos I noticed that what I thought was the toilet drain was actually an old vent. It doesn't go through the roof, but I think it may go up into the wall & possibly in to the attic. It likely is not capped which could explain the random mystery odors & why people in the house are so tired all the time. If I can find it in the attic, I can run it out of the house. Either out the side wall or get the plumber to put it through the roof & get a roof boot for metal roofing. I can then add branch vents to the tub, shower, & my toilet & connect them to the "new" vent. I'll have to add a new soil pipe for those bathroom groups & run it east to west until it picks up my lav drain then have a long sweep to run it north to south (picking up green lav drain) & connect with the main pipe going out to the septic tank.

It's a ton of work, but I am going to try to tackle things a bit at a time. My friend has been available to help me a bit more lately. The grinding part was easier than we thought & he got to keep the safety glasses, impact gloves, and knee pads so he was happy. He has to kneel a lot at work to fix arcade machines so he's very happy with the knee pads. I also took him to Taco Bell afterward & Thursday I'm taking him to Lake Charles to help one of his co-workers & then pick up a cabinet from the Lowes there.

If the Delta valve & trim kit work well enough for my bathroom, I may use that for the guest bathroom as well. Not as pretty as the Moen Kingsley set, but the levers are more practical for my brother & it's much less expensive. The trim kits are about the same price, but the valve is a huge difference. Moen's valve is over $100 & the Delta one was under $30.

Once of these days I'll do a before & after thread where I can show the progress on the bathrooms. LOL.


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## zannej

I haven't given up on this project & I'm trying to procrastinate less but I move at slower than snail pace. My ankle is almost fully recovered from the latest mishap so I can start tackling more uneven terrain (which describes the floor in the hallway and laundry room right now).

I've found that the big box stores do carry baseboard trim & I believe the trim is sized so that I might be able to cut it with my flooring saw. If not, I can use other tools. I've been discussing this project in a thread about replacing the door with rotted sills.

I'm taking a break from working down in the workshop since weather has been rainy & I've been cleaning up inside. One setback is that a friend came over and when he saw how awful my brother's room was, he decided to clean it. My brother "helped" by shoving a bunch of stuff out his door and in to the hallway for the laundry room. When I asked him to please find space for the stuff, he refused. So, I'm going to have to do a lot more cleanup in that area before I can even check the slope of the floor. I did manage to get in and do a couple of measurements where I want the bathroom door to be. I want to bump the doorway over about 4" east from where it is now. I measured the distance from the stud I wanted to remove to the next stud & found it was about 4-1/8". I then used a level and found that the stud I want to keep is plumb. I could re-use the stud that I remove to put on the other side of the doorway. I may have to cut a chunk out of the remaining stud to put the header in, but hopefully that won't be too difficult.

I am curious about what sort of header is necessary for a non-loadbearing internal wall. Can I keep the existing 2x4 that is serving as a header or should I replace it with something thicker? Could I sandwich two 2x4s together and have them with the crowns up (instead of on the side like the single 2x4 is now) to be sufficient?

Thinking about the plumbing for the area, I'm wondering if I can find this product for 1-1/2" pipe: 
I'd have to temporarly pull off some of my house siding (very carefully) or at least move it. Or maybe I can get the Fortifiber brand since it does come in 1-1/2". I'm going to play around with flooring layout in the new google sketchup trial version. I'm also going to try to find stud locations to mark.


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## slownsteady

Hey Zannej, I'm a bit confused about post #523 (goes back about a year). You mention vinyl plank but then you later mention sheet vinyl. Which one did you go with?

In the last post you talk about a header on an internal non-load-bearing wall. But if it is really not bearing a load it doesn't require a header, just the top plate (someone please correct my terminology if I'm wrong). That can be the 2x4 on the flat. Do you feel a need for something sturdier?


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## zannej

Slownsteady, to clarify: I got vinyl plank for the laundry room area (MSI Herritage Mahogany 8"x48" planks) but I want sheet vinyl for the bathroom. I ordered the vinyl plank on a special sale and got enough to do the one room (with about 10% waste allowance). The bathroom will need about 5'x5' sheet vinyl if I factor in the tub size, so I'm hoping to find some looselay remnants with decent wear layer. I'm currently playing in Sketchup to find the best layout pattern with least amount of waste-- taking in to account the 1/4" expansion gap. I was going to do 1/8" but found that 1/4" will work better.

I mistakenly thought all doors needed headers for some reason. If I can just re-use the existing 2x4, that would work. I can probably just secure it to the sides of the studs instead of having to cut the studs shorter, which will make things easier.


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## slownsteady

Hopefully a pro will confirm that.


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## zannej

I might need 6'x6' sheet vinyl because it's around 5' 3/8" from tub to wall and 5' 1" from wall to wall-- although, I was planning on putting in shoe molding anyway & I should be able to cover the gaps with that, but I like to have a little extra just in case. 
From what I've been seeing online, I do need jack studs under the header. So, I may still need to cut a chunk out of one of the king studs and put the 2x4 in. It will sort of be like a mortise & tenon joint. I can sister it up with another full height king stud for reinforcement.


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## zannej

I keep trying to make up my mind about flooring for the bathroom part. After helping my friend with his kitchen, I decided I want something similar to what he used. I found some LVP that isn't too expensive & I'd only need two cases: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Home-De...ank-Flooring-19-8-sq-ft-case-480146/306041978

I'm going to get a sample first to make sure it's the same thickness and non-slip like the one my friend got. It will be easier to handle than a big roll of sheet vinyl. I know my flooring saw cuts through the stuff easily. Should I put caulk that has some flex to it in the expansion gap next to the tub & underneath any shoe molding?

I've also decided that we are going to move the old toilet from my mother's bathroom in to the guest bathroom & replace hers with a newer chair-height Eco Drake. It's the same size & design but comes with the newest flush tower mechanism. The extra height will help her with getting up until I can install a grab bar for her.


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## slownsteady

Home Decorators isn't as good as Lifeproof but the price makes it a good choice. The more flat and level that your subfloor is, the happier you will be with the finished floor. This stuff wants to be on a flat surface. I would use a silicone caulk where the floor meets the tub. I'm not sure that you need it all around the room. Silicone should still allow for movement in a floating floor.


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## zannej

Thanks, slownsteady. The stuff my friend got looks great in his kitchen- but we didn't want a wood pattern for the floor. I checked more reviews of that flooring I linked and apparently it has black spots on it so I've ruled it out. The official photos don't show the spots but the customer photos did & customers were very unhappy as the samples and online photos didn't show it. I may end up looking at Lifeproof & seeing if they have something better that is affordable. It would take longer to install than sheet vinyl but it would be a lot easier to lay out vinyl plank than to have to struggle with a vinyl roll. Although, if I get a vinyl roll I could use the leftovers for the pantry to get rid of the seam on the floor. I'd probably get rid of the water supply line that had been for the fridge in there too. I could probably find large enough cheap scrap for the pantry without having to use leftovers. I wish there were more tile/stone options in light colors (no browns) for vinyl planks. I saw some really hideous ones in there that looked like distressed green paint over wood. Ugh.
The search continues.
On the upside, we ordered a new toilet- found an ADA height Toto Eco Drake for a good price. It will replace the short toilet in Mom's bathroom and the toilet from her bathroom will be moved in to the new bathroom. The new one will be 2" higher so it will be easier for her to get on and off of. I may have to try to replace the broken flange myself bc the plumber hasn't been returning my calls. I will have to clear a spot to be able to set the old toilet where it won't get broken. I wonder if I can pull the old crappy toilet in the 23" alcove and set it there... The old toilet needs to go in a junk pile.


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## zannej

I've been thinking about this still. I noticed that since the plumber dug out the ground underneath the house to access pipes better & didn't fill it back in, it's starting to collapse and undermine the house's supports. I'm going to have to fill it in somehow or add some sort of support wall (I know the term, but I'm blanking on it). Filling it in will make it harder to maneuver, but I'm also thinking of putting down some foam pads that lock together to make it a bit easier to crawl on instead of being on dirt. I'll have to look at my options, but I don't want the house falling.
The plumbing for this is all ***-backwards and I'm thinking of wet-venting the toilet in my bathroom to the one in my mother's bathroom because mine has to have a drop to go under the floor supports. If I try to put it up higher, it hits a joist. So, it has to go below the joist AND the support beam that goes underneath the joist (running perpendicular). The other alternative would be to cut open the wall and connect, but I'd have to cut higher than I'd want to (unless I could safely pull the paneling away without breaking it). Worst case scenario I could replace the paneling or patch the wall and paint it. I did discover that my toilet rough-in is about 11-7/8" away from the finished wall. IIRC, the old toilet touched the wall. That should be ok, but worst case scenario, I can nudge the flange forward a smidge. Looking at the photos, I'm now pretty sure my pipes are 4".


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## zannej

The tub/shower unit I wanted has been discontinued. I ended up having to get a smaller tub, but my brother won't be using it and we have a curved shower curtain rod. Went with Sterling Performa LH drain unit because it can be cut for a window.
The tub has arrived & is in the workshop. Waiting on the wall kit to arrive within the next few weeks. That will also be stored in the workshop.
I'm debating which drain to get-- wanting to go with a direct drain for better drainage & to allow the trap arm to be sufficient length (traditional setup would not give enough room for trap arm). I've ordered the Muskee (or is it Mustee?) Duratrim window kit as well as some polyurethane trim for the top of the window.
I still need to pick the right window to put in-- need to order a vinyl dual-pane w/ argon one custom ordered with tempered glass.

Meanwhile, I also ordered the shower for Mom's bathroom. Just purchased the drain (Oatey no-caulk brass drain), P-trap, & some 2" pvc for the trap arm & vent. Will need more 2" later on. Also got a combo wye & sanitary tee. I'll need to get a cleanout plug for the end of the combo wye and get a 2" to 3" combo wye. Possibly 2" to 4" if I can figure out my pipe sizes. I'm going to try to find all of my tools & such for working on my bathroom floor-- found my sifter, mixer, wet measuring cup, spreaders, etc. Need to find where I put my dry measuring cups.


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## zannej

We now have the tub + wall kit and the shower kit. Picked the wall sets & shower up yesterday. Inspected them for damage- they appear fine. Shower pan came with a felt pad. Got them home just before it started raining. Stored down in the workshop for now. Now we need to pick a time for demo & see how bad the floor is underneath & if it needs any patch leveling. Need to grab some 1x4s to raise Mom's vanity up to a comfortable height for her. Thinking of sticking an applique on the front so it doesn't look so awkward. It will be too short to have a drawer face (and I hate fake drawers almost as much as I hate fake pockets). Shower is 30" one piece & door is 24" so there is no way it will come out in one piece.

Been procrastinating on finishing up the floor in my bathroom so I need to get myself motivated to work on it. I will probably bring in something to sit on so I don't have to be on the floor- I have trouble getting back up. I've decided it doesn't need to be completely smooth/perfect so long as it doesn't transfer through the sheet vinyl.

I'm thinking of seeing if my friend has enough leftover vinyl plank from his kitchen to cover the guest bathroom floor. We bought it for him so I don't think he'd object. I think as long as he has a few leftover pieces to patch the floor in his house he'd be OK with it, but I'll have to ask. My friend said it would take 3 minutes to take the old shower out. I laughed. Every time he says something will be easy and/or fast it always ends up being more complicated & taking more time.

Hopefully, everything will go smoothly though. Worst case scenario we have to rip of some floor and put in new plywood. I may use some of the patch leveler stuff if the floor isn't too bad off. Since the shower no longer works & we've been showering at my friend's house, it doesn't matter how long the shower is out of commission so long as the toilet is available.

My current plan is to try to remove a wall panel in my bathroom to see if we can access the plumbing behind the walls (since I'm assuming there is a vent pipe-- our late plumber said he'd installed vent pipes for stuff but that the previous owners or our tenants must have cut them out). I will also check the attic to see if any pipes protrude from between walls or if they were terminated in the wall. From the lower end we can add branch vents for the tub, shower, & toilet to merge with the vent for the toilet. I doubt the fittings can be re-used so we'll likely have to cut off where we can and add the proper pipes to have a closet bend lead to a sanitary tee (it's inverted right now) for the vent.

Here's a rough plan of the layout. Lavs will actually be going outside the wall rather than in the wall because the walls are not very thick.



I'm not sure what fitting to use where the shower branch vent connects- but I suspect it is one of the few times a sanitary tee can be used horizontally with the side down & sweep following the direction of the air flow.


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## zannej

I really need to move on this project but I know I know I need help with it. I need my brother to get his crap off the floor so I can do some demo. I can't even get the back door open right now bc there's stuff piled up so high.
I think I may have found a cheap & ugly solution for the old dryer vent: Oatey 4 in. ABS Pipe Test Cap with Knockout-39103 - The Home Depot

I can fill in the hole behind it so it's reinforced & the knockout won't be able to be pushed in. I can fill in the rest with spray foam if I leave the metal ducting inside & cut it off so it won't stick out in the way of the tub.

I don't know how I misread, but my boards are 7"x48" not 8"x48". I think I've been plugging in the wrong measurements when trying to figure out how to do the layout. I wish I could find a good online program that lets me plug in room size plus board size & have it suggest layouts or show the most efficient use of boards. I know I need about 13.5 wide & 2.5 long. I got enough for 95.2sqft & the room is ~8x~10. I tried Sketchup but didn't have much luck with moving stuff around. I know I will probably just have to slightly wing it when I do the installation. I need to focus on the immediate tasks of cleaning up the space, removing walls so I can see how bad the floor is.


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## zannej

Since I'm still trying to cleanup after the hurricanes & raccoons, I haven't gotten anywhere on this but I'm trying to keep myself motivated. I bought the cleanout knockout plug thing. I saw someone else saying they used it for plugging a dryer vent hole in a wall after moving their dryer so hopefully it will work.

You may or may not remember my sketch from page 18.





The tub perspective being so off really bugged me, so I decided to fix it.



I then did an updated version with a toilet paper holder, the mirror I plan to use (putting medicine cabinet one in opposite wall to create a shaving station). Added a small shelf behind the vanity. Changed the light to have 2 bulbs instead of 3 (bc we bought a light with 2).


Mom has a doctor's appointment later today but I will see if my brother is willing to help me clean up a bit when we get back.


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## slownsteady

Shouldn't the light switch be near the door?


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## zannej

@slownsteady That switch will be for the vanity light only. I considered tying it in to the switch near the door, but it would be a royal pain to run the wiring & would cost more. Also, I'd like to be able to turn it off when it's not needed. There is already a light switch on the wall that I plan to but that outlet & switch on, but it is closer to the doorway. It will be covered by the door when the door swings in though, so I wanted to move it over, use a rocker switch, and add an outlet.

There will be an overhead vent-light-heater with a 3 switch rocker in a single gang box that will control the overhead & the switch will be right inside the door. Although I suppose we could make it so the switch near the sink is for the GFCI so it can be turned off. I'm in the process of drawing the opposite side of the room & designing a shaving station. I'm thinking of building a small shelf over the top of the medicine cabinet with a slim undermount light that can be turned on when in use.

I want to use a double outlet power perch for the GFCI & rocker switch near the vanity. It could hold my brother's electric toothbrush or phone or whatever he wanted to set up there.
I'm thinking of getting an outlet wall organizer for the shaving station over an outlet. It could hold my brother's electric razor. Although, in a pinch I could build a shelf myself out of scrap pieces of wood from the workshop, paint it, and have a hole for cords. Perhaps I could even add a dowel to hold washcloths/hand towels.

I'm currently googling shaving station/shelving ideas. I know I want a shelf underneath the between-the-studs medicine cabinet. Maybe a hook to hang the shaving bib (it has suction cups to hook to the mirror so it can catch hair & then it can be dumped in the trash bin. My brother liked the idea of a designated shaving station. Right now he has to open up a cabinet & use a cracked mirror on the inside of the door. I need to replace that mirror-- will have to see if they have any at the Dollar Tree in Alexandria bc the one in town closed.

Any suggestions/ideas for the shaving station? I don't shave so I don't know what all he would need. I believe he can store his little kit that is in a case inside the medicine cabinet. There's an electric razor, don't know if he uses shaving cream, but that can go inside the cabinet if he does... washcloth/towel maybe? I'll have to ask him. LOL.


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## zannej

So, I have 2 images I created of the opposite side of the room. One has the outlet lower and closer to the door. The other has it higher up the wall and closer to the middle.
What do you think?









Here's a side-by-side of the opposite sides of the room.


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## zannej

I really need to make the shower trim lever thing larger. It's too small proportionately compared to the rest of the stuff. I should also draw a better showerhead or add the hose for the showerhead since I will have a handheld. Thinking of going with a rainshower handheld slidebar with a built-in soapdish but it will be a pain to draw. https://www.amazon.com/Retro-Fit-Diverter-Adjustable-Stainless-X6400A-CH/dp/B01H4RJYFI/

I wouldn't mind having that one in my own bathroom, but I will probably get one of the Moen Magnetix double showerhead thingies instead. My friend has a a version of the rainshower one without the soap dish.

I'm working on drawing the shower from the side view. It's a work in progress (WIP). Still need to do showerhead, double curved curtain rod, etc, but I've been having trouble with the angles/perspective. Plus I'm not sure which showerhead to draw. I might just do a placeholder simple one.
Here's the drawing thus far:


Some details got lost in upload. There are bullseye rosettes as the corner plinths for the window trim. I will probably also have a little vinyl curtain over the window & I have some removable peel & stick privacy vinyl to stick to the lower window both for reinforcement & filter sunlight.


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## zannej

So, I got this shower arm: Plumb Pak PP825-191 S-Shaped Shower Arm and Flange Extension Polished Chrome  46224050544 | eBay
and this showerhead https://www.amazon.com/Moen-26009-Magnetix-Featuring-Technology/dp/B07BS2W1PW/ with 2.5gpm spray. I wanted 2 of each but they were low on stock. They will go in one of the bathrooms (either guest bathroom or my bathroom).


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## zannej

Question in terms of door structure: Both my exterior and interior doors currently have a single 2x4 as a header (I know I absolutely need to replace that on the exterior load-bearing one). For the interior non-load-bearing wall, can I get away with using a 4x4 header hanger on one side and a jack stud on the other when I move the doorway over 4"? There is a king stud 4" over from where the jack stud currently is.
Simpson Strong-Tie HH Galvanized Header Hanger for 4x Nominal Lumber-HH4 - The Home Depot is the product.

Or, seeing as it isn't load-bearing, could I get away with keeping the existing 2x4 & using some sort of shelf plain L shaped bracket that can support shelves?

Or could I drive some sturdy screws designed for joists in to the header from the side of the king stud (assuming there's enough room for a drill & screwdriver in there).


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## zannej

Got the Moen Engage 5.5" 2.5gpm handheld showerhead and the guest bathroom since my brother just wants a handheld and doesn't care about a fixed showerhead. The one with the fixed showerhead plus handheld is going in my bathroom. Got the Multi-Choice valve for Pex crimp fitting. I will be picking up some 3/4" conduit elbows (which are less than $1 each) so I won't have to get expensive elbow fittings. My friend used conduit for his valve.
Got the Delta Lahara trim again (gave 1st one to my friend to use in his shower-- we get to take showers at his house whenever we want until we get our stuff fixed). Still need a 2nd shower arm and another shower trim for guest bathroom.

Meanwhile, I have picked out the faucet for the guest bathroom. I'd been looking at Moen ones but they were expensive & not the right style. Closest was the one my Mom got on clearance for her bathroom, but I decided that since we're getting a Delta trim we can get a Delta faucet. Found the Delta Porter faucet on e-bay (open box) for $54 w/ "fast & free" shipping & free returns w/in 30 days. Alternative is to buy new for $69 at HD. It has a nice high arc and longer reach than the Moen ones.


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## zannej

So, I'm not sure why I thought I got a 2-light vanity lamp. We apparently got a 3-light one on clearance. The display model looked better than the online pictures. https://www.lowes.com/pd/Portfolio-3-Light-Chrome-Modern-Contemporary-Vanity-Light/1000002924

I've updated two of my drawings to include the new lamp drawing (definitely not proportional so I will have to do measurements and try to scale things better later). I wish I was better with the 3D modeling and that Milkshape was still being supported. I will have to learn how to use Blender or one of the other free 3D modeling programs. I should update the faucet drawing too but I don't feel like doing it just yet.


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## zannej

While waiting for my rotator cuff to heal a bit more I was playing around with Sketchup. Trying to make the vanity and mirror. The mirror turned out OK and the vanity is a work in progress. I'm struggling to get the right shapes/angles for the top. I'm satisfied with the base (I can do a bit more detail on it later (adding depth etc instead of just having it flat with stuff drawn on the surface). I'm not happy with what I have of the top so far. There are so many curves and Sketchup doesn't handle curves well.


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## slownsteady

I'm not so sure that getting the depth perception is all that important for the room sketch. And not all graphics tools are built with that in mind. You may be able to find stock images that you can import, and perhaps edit the face to look the way you want it to.


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## zannej

Slownsteady, I tried to find similar sinks in the 3dwarehouse. As far as I know importing just an image won't work. There are no stock photos of the set I have because it was discontinued almost a decade ago. I know it's not critical for the sketch/layout but I'm nitpicky and I want to make it look at least close to the real deal. The circles and lines and such are just drawn on so they give the illusion of depth. I need to re-learn how to use some of the tools to make curves & such just for my own satisfaction.

I'm debating whether or not I should try to get a shattaf for this bathroom or if that would end up creating a leak if my brother forgets to turn it off or something. He doesn't always remember to turn the cooktop off & has ruined a couple of pans. It would help with cleaning (which I'm sure he won't do so I'll probably end up having to do it). 

Funny thing on the shattaf... When I was talking to my mother about renovating her bathroom I suggested getting one. She said she didn't need one. Said she wouldn't use it and there was no point. I got one for my bathroom. Later on she saw one for sale and asked me if I wanted it (for my bathroom) but I reminded her I already had one but said she could get it for hers. She said she didn't want it. That was a few years back. Last night I was cleaning the toilet and commenting that it would be easier if we had a shattaf for me to spray the bowl with to rinse. She indignantly said "I wanted to get one but YOU didn't want one!" LOL.


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## zannej

No screen shots but I've added a little shelf between the door and the shower. I'm going to make a custom tp-holder thing to mount on the vanity when it's finished. 
I also added wall switches and outlets. 

I've been thinking about how to deal with the gap between the wall and the vanity that I plan to have (so people won't hit their elbows on the wall while washing their hands- and to give a little extra surface for items). I will use some white formica for the top next to and behind the vanity. On the side near the wall, I was going to have one of those pull-out-shelves like the Rev-A-Shelf ones, but they didn't have the right sizes. I wanted to make my own but couldn't find the right drawer slides. Then I saw this video:


Using the speed square to line up the screws was a neat idea. Having something on the wall as a stop was also a good idea.
This would save me from having to make framing on the sides & I wouldn't have to bolt anything to the vanity. I could build a shorter slimmer version & put some good castors on it. I have those tools you press against something to get the shape, lock it down, trace the shape on what you want to cut, and then cut it out with a jigsaw. I can do that around the side of the sink so the front part follows the curve and then the sides should sit flush together. I saw an awesome measuring tape I want that actually has the numbers for the fractions written on it and it does digital measuring with a display screen too. It's on my wishlist.


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## zannej

I was going to make a shelf between the door and the shower (for the shaving station) but when I went in to look for some other stuff, I found these shelves in the clearance bin. Wood Wall Shelves Set | Hobby Lobby | 657916
They are very soft wood, very rough, have large knots (which I couldn't see bc of the packaging, but that's no big deal to me), and are secured only with staples. The largest one already has a brace coming off because it wasn't stapled securely. But I planned to reinforce them anyway. I'll be using some angle braces. 
The medium one should fit in the space. I can find other spots for the large and small ones. Medium one will be getting a 7/8" dowel to use as a towel bar.


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## zannej

Just realized the holdrite bracket I got requires sweating the copper to solder the pipes to the holder. There is another bracket with a plastic insert that locks the pipe in place. I plan to get that instead.


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## zannej

I played around with Sketchup more. I found what 3dWarehouse listed as the Performa shower but they had the wrong wallset for the model #. The wallset they had wasn't even remotely correct. I found diagrams of the shower and looked for as many pictures as I could find so I could re-create it. I had trouble getting the curves/angles right for the underside of the shelf, but I decided to just go with it. Maybe if I can remember how to do more of the curve detail stuff I can try to do it better later.

Some of the stuff was too complicated to make (I mean, I probably could have made it if I'd really tried, but I didn't feel like it) so I just used approximations. The faucet, sink, vanity light, tub spout, shower controls, and showerhead are not the correct ones.

I kept getting frustrated trying to make the sink so I ended up just taking the pedestal off of a pedestal sink model I found, resizing the sink somewhat and then plopping it on the vanity I made. I did build the mirror from scratch. Not sure if the recessed medicine cabinet is the right size because I just found one that looked about right and I can't get in there to measure the real one.

I studied diagrams of the dryer and when I added the dryer vent at the appropriate measurement (center of hole is lower middle of dryer 3 7/16" above the bottom). The MagVent I got has a 3" margin of error but I still want to get it as straight as possible. With the 15" pedestal I realized that the trap arm of the standpipe would be in the way of the vent. So I will lower it and put a thermal barrier of some sort between the dryer duct and the pipe just in case. In the drawings I also didn't have the right fittings downloaded to reduce the size of the pipe from 2" to 1-1/2" and I forgot to sketch in the cleanout.
Top view of both rooms (there was no model of the double shower rod so I did a single, but there will be a double)


View of the east side of the bathroom (I neglected to draw in a shelf above the recessed medicine cabinet- but there will be a shelf with a light)


View of the laundry room from the east (with wall down). 


View of the north side of the bathroom


View of the south side of the bathroom


Transition from the vinyl plank to vinyl sheet in the doorway


East side of laundry room


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## zannej

Either tomorrow or Sunday (barring any unforeseen events) my friend will be coming over to help run the PEX waterlines. I'm leaning toward bumping it to Sunday because he has to work Friday evening & I don't want him to feel rushed or to not be able to finish since he'll need time to shower before work. Also, in case of us needing a part, I don't want to have to go to a store on black friday. 

I forgot to mention to my friend that the outside spigot runs on the inside water, so I will need to pick up a 3/4" shutoff (or see if the old one is still around and can be re-attached). Going to wrap the hell out of it in insulation. Maybe put the shutoff inside a styrofoam cooler or something (we got some with Mom's insulin shipments). I can get a hose stand to zip tie the spigot's pipe to so it will stay upright.

Confirmed with friend that we will push back until Sunday so it will be less stressful for him. Plus I can grab a hose stand or rebar or something to tether the pipe to to make it stay upright.

I'll have to take stock of the manifold pieces I have later on to make sure I have all the right kinds. I'll have to go out with my phone and take pics so I remember. Should probably grab more hooks for hanging the pipes. I will likely do my shopping in Saturday so I avoid BF rushes.

This is the whole house layout currently:



Future layout (pretty much only the laundry and b1 get changed:



From what I discovered there are actually 2 lines coming in to the house (but I didn't draw them) There is a box that should have shutoffs in it but doesn't. Both lines are visible. One supplies all of the cold water to the house and the other runs to the water heater for the hot water. I guess the initial idea was that if we needed to shut off just the hot water and not the cold or just the cold and not the hot, we could do so independently. But there are no longer shutoffs so I don't know what happened there. The cold water supply line will get tied in to further under the house. Hot line is already tied into.

My friend described this as a "simple project" but he always underestimates. It's always more complicated than he expects. I'm always expecting there to be some snag so I want to be prepared for it.


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## zannej

Got lines run for all of the existing fixtures run yesterday-- save for the cold water on kitchen sink and for an outdoor faucet. My bathroom lav has copper supply lines so those will have to be removed and replaced with braided steel lines. We need to find proper adapters to hook up the existing shower valves. Nice thing about PEX is that when it's time to install the new stuff it will be easy to adapt.

We did use some push-fit shutoffs for under sinks and places that are accessible but anything inside a wall (or inside the closet) got pex clamp style so it won't leak. 

Did a test and nothing leaked up top. Water pump didn't turn on when I first turned power back on so it didn't seem to be losing any water anywhere. Water pressure in the bathroom sink wasn't great at first but now it's fine. There was a lot of air in there that made the faucets seem angry though. LOL.

I need to find the right sized little flange thingies to go on the floor where the PEX comes up for the toilets.

Now that the old pipes are cut I'll be able to finish demo on the guest bathroom without worrying about lines busting and water leaking everywhere.

Friend also added emergency shutoffs to the hot and cold lines just under the house (we have those two separate lines just in case). I'll have to crawl back under and remove the old PVC and CPVC pipes to keep them out of the way, but for now they are holding the pex up as my friend's arm was too tired to nail up hangers. I may see if I am able to nail up hangers later- but I do have absolutely terrible aim with a hammer.

It's nice to have made progress though.

I'm thinking for my bathroom floor that once I get the messed up floor a little more level I can put down the insulation layer/underlayment and do a layer of luan over the top and then water seal that before putting down the sheet vinyl. That way there won't be all those bumps & the floor will be smoother.


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## zannej

So, I saw something on Hammerpedia that gave me an idea for the toilet's plumbing.



All this time I've been looking for the sanitary tee that reduces at the top instead of side or bottom & haven't had much luck. But a low heel inlet would have good flow and has the reduced size for a vent. I wonder if I could do something similar for the sink.

I also discovered that on the "newer" side of the house (built around 1947) the underside of the house at the perimeter has an interesting configuration. There is a floor above and then there's a little empty pocket with one side covered with vertical board for the siding outside, and then there is a large beam running perpendicular to the joists.



I need to find out if the older part of the house (which consists of the first bedroom, guest bathroom, laundry room, kitchen, etc) is configured this way. I will need to measure how deep and high that pocket is to see if pipes can fit in there or not. At the very least it would be nice to see if the sink's drain pipe can fit in there to merge with he toilet line. Or if there is enough room for me to run vents inside the walls. I really need to peel back the paneling in there to see how thick the studs are. I suspect they are 2x4 but they might be 2x6. If they are 2x6 I might be able to run some vent pipes inside the wall and then out to go around the soffit (since I don't want to mess with trying to cut through metal roof there.

Do they sell wall boots similar to roof boots?


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## Eddie_T

Plumbers like a vent for every drain. Then when called to unclog a drain they do it from the roof.


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## zannej

Eddie, I am trying to add branch vents to every line with cleanouts in various places. Main vent stack is too small to add more fixtures (it looks like it's only 2" diameter). I can tie in the tub & washing machine to it. But I would need to make it larger to tie in the toilet as well as the lavatory (bathroom sink). Kitchen sink is too far away to tie in.

Right now none of my fixtures are vented properly so I need to add vents. They have half-a$$ed circuit vents (where the vents run below flood level and out from under the house). They come out, run up the wall, elbow off horizontally around the eaves, and then back vertical above the roof.

I want to do something similar for the toilet and lav in the new bathroom.

I will either tie in outside the exterior wall (running lav's drain through the wall) or inside the exterior wall and then run it out through the upper part of the exterior wall. I will make sure the hole is not too large and that I caulk the hell out of it. The former will be uglier having multiple pipes outside the wall.

On the left is the outside where it comes out of the house. On the right is my crappy sketch of the pipes in the wall. I got lazy.



This is the current waterline layout just about



Light blue line comes out of the ground & converts from 1" PVC to 3/4" PEX (we couldn't find 1" pex in stock) and has a 1/4 turn ball valve and 3/4" pex run to the water heater which converts to PVC & up to the hose to the top of the water heater. Water heater hose comes out the top, goes to 3/4" CPVC and goes under the house where it is transitioned to 3/4" PEX. From there a tee was added to split off to the two bathroom groups. The rest of the line continues over to the laundry room and has a tee up to the washing machine, it loops back north and terminates at the kitchen sink. The split off line has a quad-branch tee that splits off to tubs and sinks. I believe it is oriented vertically but am not sure.

The dark blue line comes out of the ground & converts from 1" PVC to 3/4" PEX and has a 1/4 turn ball valve before continuing on to 3/4" pex that runs to the bathroom groups just beyond the toilets where it has a triple open end branch tee with 1/2" branches but open end is 3/4", short run of pex to another triple closed end branch tee with 1/2" branches. I need to map out which lines go to which manifold but I guesstimated in the drawing. The lines run over old pipes to keep them off the ground for now.


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## zannej

So, I started thinking about grab bar placement and how my balance is not getting any better so I want to be able to put grab bars in my bathroom at some point in the future. Same with guest bathroom-- want to be able to have a grab bar. I know it's more lumber, but better to take care of it now than have to tear out walls later on.
I read this article: Backer Boards In The Bathroom - How Are They Used?

And was thinking of doing a combo of some plywood or something glued to the back of the shower wall panels to reinforce them and also securing backer boards between the studs. I would paint the plywood on the back of the wall panels to seal them up and protect them from any possible water penetration. The 2x10s in the walls could be covered in moisture barrier. Center of the board would be around 36" high. I could use Simpson Strong-Tie LUC ZMAX Galvanized Face-Mount Concealed-Flange Joist Hanger for 2x10 Nominal Lumber-LUC210Z - The Home Depot to hang them.

I've heard construction adhesive might dry too hard for the walls, but am not sure. Would liquid nails work to adhere the plywood to the back of the shower walls?

In my brother's bathroom, the showerhead will probably come out of the wall above the Sterling wall set (since my brother is taller) but I'll have to see how things measure up. We will have access to the wall from the back side.

For my bathroom, I haven't even picked a wall set or anything. I'm debating whether I should try glue-up or something. The ones I have now are falling down.

For Mom's bathroom, I will have to see how tall the surround walls are in person to figure out if she can reasonably have the showerhead above the wallset or if it will need to be in it. Since her showerhead comes with a slidebar built in, I need to be mindful of how far down the handheld part can slide for her to reach.

Any suggestions?


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## Eddie_T

I watched the video for the pullout pantry just to get ideas. I built my kitchen so there was no wasted space but in my utility room a freezer replacement left a bit of  gap for consideration. I recommend fixed casters as they are less squirrelly in use. I used them for my mobile island for more stability and can easily steer if need be just by easily lifting one end. IIRC @shan2themax has a base cabinet on a HF dolly.


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## zannej

Yeah, fixed casters might work for the little side rolling piece. Would be less persnickety than having to deal with drawer glides. I saw a cool idea of putting a stopper to keep the rolling part from pulling out too far. I do want to have a solid piece of countertop/shelf against the wall on top of the pull-out that will not move with it so things are less likely to fall into a gap.

It took me a hot minute to figure out why pantries were being mentioned in a bathroom thread, but then I remembered that I brought it up with the thing next to the vanity in the thread. LOL.


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## zannej

Can't access sketchup for more screenshots but I managed to save some from my old pc. Haven't tried booting it up again since I got some data off of it earlier.

Minor progress: The knobs for the guest bathroom arrived. Decided to keep the Schlage flair levers for my own bathroom and go with the Schlage Siena oval knobs. Laundry room side the knob is polished brass while bathroom side is chrome.

Still trying to pick the right lavatory for Mom's bathroom on the other side of the house. Before my PC crashed I made decent progress on the sketchup drawings for Mom's bathroom. 3D warehouse doesn't have the shower model for her shower and its rather complicated so I haven't put it in yet, but I manually drew in some of the shelves and such. I couldn't find the right textures to put on things so I used white and blue for stuff. Still waiting on countertop samples to arrive. The tracking # I got for the samples shows it's invalid or not trackable yet.

This shows the progress in the sketching process. I put in a random sink that isn't the one we will be buying.








Mom doesn't really like the idea of white cabinets so I'm trying to figure out what color to paint them that would not clash with light blue walls (she doesn't want greeinish tint) and possibly a blue countertop. Might end up having to go with white (but maybe a marbled white of some sort) for the countertop if she doesn't like the blues. We're thinking of getting a Toto Reliant lavatory since it is fairly deep and is about the right size.


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## zannej

Countertop samples arrived today. As I expected, Mom selected Formica "Spectrum Blue". Sink for her bathroom has been ordered. A Toto lavatory that is the same diameter as hers but slightly deeper. Next step is to compare the countertop sample with paint colors to see which ones complement each other.


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## zannej

Lavatory arrived today. Box was on its side. I haven't opened it yet as I had other heavy packages to haul in and I'm too exhausted & it's dark in the front room since only 1 light works. I have it in a safe spot and tomorrow morning I'll open it up and see if there are any cracks or damage. The outer box sort of ripped when I was carrying it but it has foam corner thingies suspending the other box inside.


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## zannej

I don't have my sketchup files from the desktop on my laptop yet. Currently transferring data. But I got bored and re-built the bathroom in a newer version of Sketchup. Figured out some tricks on how to adjust colors & textures. I remembered to group elements (walls, vanity, etc) this time so it's not so sloppy. I did a rough sketch of the tall melamine laminated cabinet where we keep extra tp, bandaids, cleaning supplies, etc. I found a few models I couldn't find before-- namely the correct shower model for Mom's bathroom. I realized the toilet I was using had some funky thing going up the back wall. So I found a toilet with a better bowl and spliced the tank from the other one on to it to make a Frankenstein toilet. I'm sure it's not the right size. I found a curved shower rod (sadly, no double curved one available from 3dwarehouse) and used it to substitute the double curved. Added in some grab bars but didn't adjust the size.

I didn't feel up to messing with redoing the side shelves though. I'm waiting to get the files off the portable drive when it's done transferring.

Anyway, this is what I came up with thus far:


Wall color displays darker and greener than it should for some reason. But the vanity is about right. I got the floor to match a little better. Added a couple towel bars (only approximations of the real ones) trash can, curtains, soap dish (representing the soap dish/toothbrush holder mounted to the wall), softsoap etc. I think it looks ok.


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## zannej

I ordered windows for laundry room and guest bathroom. Mostly need it for guest bathroom. They were on sale and it was the last day of sale. ETA at time of ordering was March 28. They e-mailed me to say it will be June 3 at the earliest. We'll have to see I suppose the windows can be added after remodeling if need be. I can leave the shower enclosure uncut until the window arrives and then cut it to fit the new window. Assuming we an get stuff worked on before June.


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## zannej

I got my friend to move the wood block that kept shifting to a spot where it holds still better. He didn't realize the old pipe was where the switch had been sitting before. Took the mounting bracket off of one of the old pressure switches and used it on the block. Got my new hammer drill attachment to drive the 3" screws in. Hasn't jammed since (and I'm about to go check it again).





Still need to get some sort of protective cover over the switch/cables because the default cover won't fit the way the wires are running.


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## zannej

Wood block had to be trimmed in the area where the rod moves because the bottom nut kept getting stuck. No pics yet.

I also mentioned in another thread that I annihilated the blackberry bushes out back. That gets me closer to being able to fix stuff up back there.

My To Do List:

Finish cleaning up debris in yard
Finish connecting PEX to kitchen sink & outdoor faucet
Landscape to prevent weeds & nettles from growing back
Install awning over back door
Finish demo on old bathroom
Repair subfloor/doorsill
Install new back door
Rough in plumbing
Install new flooring in laundry room (former bathroom)
Update electrical
Install insulation and wall panels
Paint
Move washer & dryer to new laundry room
Install flooring in bathroom
Install new fixtures in bathroom
Install new windows
Add landings to back doors and get proper steps

Hoping my friend will be able to help more now that he got his vision back in his left eye (hit his head hard and it moved the blood clots)


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## zannej

The windows arrived. They are MUCH lighter than I expected. Double pane southern exposure rated with argon. They wouldn't do the custom order for tempered glass so I will put a film on the window (and put a small curtain over the window area). I already have some decorative film to put on but I'm thinking of putting on something like this https://www.amazon.com/S8MC-Window-Security-Safety-Clear/dp/B00FRLJTZO/ to reinforce the windows. I know it is supposed to go on the outside but I'll be putting it on the inside.

These are the windows I got (they were on sale for under $100 each): https://www.lowes.com/pd/ReliaBilt-...ment-White-Single-Hung-Window-Half/5001996943


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## zannej

I got bored again. Not enough energy to clean but enough to sketch my bathroom roughly.


I haven't bothered to do cutouts until I know more about the measurements and I roughly placed things. Omitted the chest of drawers, towel bars, faucets, mirrors, etc. I'm thinking of getting a small stool or bench seat opposite the toilet (but bumped over so its too close) or a laundry hamper or something. A seat would be nice-- especially one with storage.

I'm still trying to decide what sort of surround to put around the cast iron tub. I may have to cave and get some waterproof drywall to put up around the tub so I can do a glue-up surround.

As for Mom's bathroom, I have better sketches using the colors from the samples of the spectrum blue formica, a wall color she liked, and the behr deep river paint. It is very blue but she loves blue

Here is a closeup of the side shelf above the vanity. There is a thick heavy mirror sitting on top of it as well as a messed up lamp and other junk.


top view of the room (with the new colors). Right now the walls look like the ones in my bathroom but with green stripes instead.








This is what it would generally look like with the shelves unpainted (mom didn't like the white vanity):


I've since added the electrical outlet above the vanity (in the exterior wall) but haven't done screenshots yet. I wonder if I can tap in to that to add a vanity light above. Even something small and lightweight would be nice because, other than the cruddy lamp on the side, the only light is hte ceiling one (that does not work).


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## ekrig

That is a serious level of sketchup skill. Vice nice!


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## Eddie_T

I saw a house in a magazine once that had a hinged mirror that covered the window when using it but swung out of the way when not needed. As I think about it  ·  ·  ·  it may have been a built in medicine cabinet door when closed. Mirrored shutters might work in a small space  ·  ·  ·  anyway, just musing  ·  ·  ·  I like the unique.


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## zannej

Mirrored shutters would be a neat idea. Not sure if she'd agree to it. I need to find new curtains for her bathroom. The fugly green ones have to go. Maybe I could clean up the ones from the kitchen (if I can find them). 

I can't use my laptop for the time being so I don't have access to the sketchup files from the laptop at the moment. I need to find my portable drive. I think it fell under my desk. This computer is having some issues-- saying it isn't genuine since I had to clone the drive. Hoping I can find the code to fix that.

After I get the adapter to charge my laptop I'm going to try to do some cleaning. .


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## zannej

I forgot to clarify that I did not draw some of the objects. I got the toilet (which I modified- spliced together two different ones), the shower, shower rod, shower curtain, grab bars, towel bars, applique, toilet paper roll, sink, faucet, soap dish, magazine holder, laundry basket, window, curtains, trash can, and vanity light from 3dwarehouse. I drew the room, modified the color pattern of the floor, drew the vanity, shelves, tp holder, and large cabinet. The TP holder and side shelf near the vanity took the most work since they have curves.
Oh, I also didn't make the door. That was from 3dwarehouse bc I'm lazy. LOL.


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## zannej

I got the floor from the ensuite bathrooms and put it in the guest bathroom (I'm hoping to have enough leftover to do the whole bathroom. If not, I'll figure something out. 
Added some shelves and tweaked a few things. Still trying to decide on a space saver. The oak one I wanted went way up in price.


I'm debating on whether to have a switch for just the vanity light over near the vanity or if I should tie it in to the wall switch from the overhead light. I'm thinking it might be better to do the latter and then have one or two GFCI outlets over by the sink. I have a shaving station next to the door so I think the only thing that would need to plug in near the sink would be to charge a toothbrush & for a water pick. Shaver and hair dryer could be on the side with the door. I ordered a cheap light on amazon that can go over the medicine cabinet. I changed the tp holder to a regular recessed one instead of a custom built. Worst case if my brother brings his phone into the bathroom he can set it on the back of the toilet, whatever shelf/space saver I put up, or the shelf behind the sink. I want to bump it forward a little for plumbing clearance. The weird circle after the towel ring is to protect the wall from the doorknob.

I also changed the color and size of the flooring in the laundry area. Still debating on color of cabinets. Either blue like the door or white. Or maybe a different shade of blue entirely.


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## havasu

I just noticed you have 202,000 views on this thread. Could you tell us what you've done to this point?


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## zannej

Thus far I've purchased the shower/tub unit, toilet, showerhead, shower arm, valve and trim, vinyl plank flooring, vanity light, vanity, window trim, bathroom door, windows for both rooms, knob for the door, mag-vent for the dryer, back door, pet door for the back door, knob for the back door, and some light switches and plates.
I installed the dog door and painted the back door.
Run PEX for the current washing machine but will need to add pex for the changes (I have the fittings to make the changes- I'm hoping the pex to the washing machine can be moved over to supply water for the tub.
I cleaned the hallway and laundry room but my brother pushed a bunch of trash and laundry out of his room into the area so its a total mess again. Started demo on the walls for the current bathroom but had run into a snag with waterlines (that are now disconnected). Gonna need my brother's and friend's help to get my brother's mess cleaned up again so I can finish demo. Need to throw out and/or relocate stuff that is piled up in the bathroom.
Then I need to figure if I want to use regular wall panels or put up drywall (although I'd use waterproof kind).

I've mostly done measuring and planning. I need to get the joist locations established & figure out how badly damaged the floor is under the washing machine.

I feel bad that I haven't made much progress on this yet. I'd wanted to rough in the plumbing for the new location of the washing machine as well as to the sink and toilet but friend didn't feel up to it & its in a spot where I'm too fat to fit.

I need to stop procrastinating.  I think if I get the area cleaned up enough that I can finish some demo, I can figure out what needs to be done to fix & level the floor & get the back door installed. Need to figure out where my prybars and sledgehammer went. I want to slowly build the whole house in sketchup (not that it would make any progress on the actual house work).

I just realized the dog door size was wrong on the door so I fixed it. But I really need to work on the actual house and not 3d models.


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## zannej

Mom changed her mind about the vanity light. Doesn't want the one we bought for her bathroom to be put up. So, I got a rechargeable battery one that sticks up and has a magnetic base so the light can be taken off and charged. It has 2 remote controls. So she's happy with that and will let me put it up after we paint her walls. She picked a different color paint for her cabinets (a lighter blue from some paint I found on clearance).

I didn't want to disappoint havasu & after my water supply lines were hooked up in my bathroom, I had no reason to not do attempt #3 at leveling mix. I had to make more than intended bc of a derp in mixing ratios but it worked out because I needed more. Filled in some pits, spread it around and filled in some divots. Accidentally stepped in it though. But I'm going to sand it when it dries a bit more. I'll give it several days to dry thoroughly since I put some on thicker than I should have. It isn't anywhere that will be walked on at least. Additive should make it dry faster. It thickened up fast in the bucket. RIP bucket.


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## zannej

Its all dry now. I gave it a light sanding. After this picture I realized there was some stuff spilled on the closet flange so I took a metal scraper and removed anything that stuck up. The very dark stuff is dry. I was trying to figure out what it was and then I remember the additive splashed down in those spots when I was mixing. So the additive stained the floor there. Doesn't matter since it will get covered. up.





This is after I scraped the lumps of stuff off the closet flange. I also scraped the stuff that was covering a screw.



I will need to get a new tub surround. I have these ugly yellowed plastic panels glued up to old wood panels. It was printed wood panels with a mural of ducks. There was only a tub when and no shower when we first moved in.



Side panel is pulling away from the wall


I'll see how it looks and feels when the flooring is down. I still want to build a small toilet platform to make the toilet just a teeny bit higher but I can do that later on because I'm using a Better Than Wax ring so I won't need to mess with wax.

I need to sweep up and vaccuum before I put the floor down and hope there isn't a crease in the sheet vinyl. If there is, I'll just deal with it.


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## zannej

My sketchup approximation of the area I've been working on:


Looks a lot nicer in Sketchup. LOL. Flange and supply line positions are approximate. 


Need to get it flattened out. Right now it won't straighten up because I have toolboxes and other stuff sitting on the part I need to move over. I need to pull from the back left corner (off camera) and straighten it out more. Once its down and flat I will need to clean it thoroughly. CJ on the flooringforums suggested using a push broom for flattening it out. Will walk on it without shoes after I clean it up more.


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## zannej

I worked on this a bit but still need to bring in my push-broom. I swept and vacuumed on top of the vinyl (box with the leveling mix powder fell over and spilled on it). Shopvac clogged up on a styrofoam peanut. No idea where it came from- unless a mouse brought it in. Discovered a couple of mouse holes in the wall and mice chewed the edge of the vinyl in a couple of spots. I also re-vacuumed under the vinyl. I adjusted the way the vinyl was lying as well. Need to flatten it, secure it, and mop it. (I want to secure it before mopping. Also need to fill those mouse holes with steel wool and trim up the excess vinyl. I hope I can find the flooring tape I bought. 
There is a reddish stain on one spot on the vinyl. Not sure what it's from but I intend to put a bath mat over that spot anyway.


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## zannej

I got it flattened better and did some sweeping and vacuuming both on top of and under the vinyl. Found the flooring tape. Shopvac got clogged so I need to clear it to vacuum more. Once I am completely happy with how it is lying I will start taping (after taking care of mouse holes). Took some pics and am exhausted.







I still need to get the part near the door flattened again but I need to trim some back where it overlaps the carpet. The really filthy stuff will be cut off. Its going to suck trying to do stuff around the door since I'm not taking it off as I need to keep cats out. I plan to tape corners down just in case so it won't move once I have it completely flat. I want to tuck it under the carpet a bit-- will use plastic putty spreader thingies for pushing it under after I gently lift the carpet. I plan to run it up the toekick a bit. Have to fix that little tear near the vanity but it snot a big deal. I'll probably fix it with the flooring tape.


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## zannej

I'm too lazy to upload the before sweeping up the mess of trimmings, tape cutoffs, and other junk at the moment (save for one pic) so I'll post the ones after I cleaned up.











This part wasn't cleaned when I took the picture. I still need to scrub that floor more. I do wonder if I can get the red stain near the tub out but am not sure. I think ink from a box transferred the floor from sitting too long and getting wet. I need to vacuum the carpet outside the door as well. Please excuse the mess-- my cats knocked a bunch of stuff down-- you can see a broken mug to the left.


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## zannej

I mopped and then scrubbed the everloving crap out of the floor square by square.




While scrubbing I discovered a small screw had somehow gotten under the vinyl right in the middle of the damn floor. I had to pull the vinyl up and get it out. It punctured a small hole in the vinyl but you can't see it. Vinyl didn't go down quite as flat as before but I don't care. LOL. If it really bugs me too much I can adjust it bc the adhesive is rather forgiving.
Got the stuff laid out and had the straws on the bolts before putting the waxless seal on so the toilet could be test-fitted first.

Friend got toilet in place easily and made sure the tank fit snugly.



I put my new trash can in.



Next step is fixing the toilet seat (glue will take 24 hours to cure) and some cleanup. I will need to get everything off the vanity so we can use the sink.


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## Eddie_T

Are the waxless seals as easy as advertised?


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## zannej

Eddie_T said:


> Are the waxless seals as easy as advertised?


Yes. You just put them over the bolts, set the toilet on top, and if you had to use the spacer you sit on top of the toilet to squish it down and secure the bolts. I used Toiletmaster bolts where the caps themselves screw on to the bolts instead of having to put nuts over washers on the the bolts and then putting caps on. No messy wax to deal with.

I used the Fluidmaster Better-Than-Wax seal. Those green puffy ones delaminate from what I've read.


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## zannej

My brother came running in here earlier because he had to pee & Mom was in her bathroom. So he was happy to be able to use a toilet instead of having to go outside in the dark with the mosquitoes.

I've been thinking about the laundry room and was looking at my diagrams of where I would have plumbing go and then did measurements (in sketchup). My original plan was to have the drain for the standpipe go down just to the right of the window but I realize that might block access behind the machine for the dryer vent. My state allows 6' run on 2" pipe and it's under 6' to run almost to the wall and then have it go up and have a cleanout at a convenient height.

I'm also re-evaluating the idea of a shelf level with the machines behind them. I wanted something to cover the gap between the machines and keep stuff from falling behind and then I had an epiphany. I could use some sort of arylic sheet laid over the top of the machines and add a ledger on the back wall with a cut-out for the supply line/drain box (which I might recess at least slightly) and have it butt into the window sill about 2" instead of making some sort of box. I can add some sort of clear bumper things to make it stay in place on top of the machines and if I need to move it I can.

I hope this is making sense. Rough sketchup view of it.


I'm currently looking for a cleanout tee model to plug in on the pipe up on the right. Obviously the edges of the acrylic/plexiglass would be chamfered so they won't stick out and injure anyone. I'd have 1x1s or 1x2s up the wall behind as a ledger for the acrylic and maybe some pieces along the sides as well. If I butt the plumbing box against the wall I *might* have enough room for the washing machine plug to go into a 20amp GFCI outlet above it on that little wall piece. The plexi would be cut in that spot for the plug and if the box trim blocks the front it will keep stuff from falling behind.

I was looking at this product OPTIX 36 in. x 72 in. x .093 in. Acrylic Sheet MC-10 - The Home Depot but I think I might have a sheet large enough already down in the workshop.

The reason for having something clear is so the color of the machines will still show through and we can still get more light from the window & see if anything fell behind more easily.


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## RedneckGrump

I take the opportunity to always pee outside... (lol)
Wonderful feeling...
There's a picture somewhere around here, with Grandson (4 years old) and Grumpy with our pants to our knees...Pitching a moon... having a leak... LOL


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## zannej

It's harder to get to the outside because the lights don't work in the front room to get to the front door and there are mosquitoes out. For some reason it reminds me we had a cat who loved to play outside but would come back in and use the litterbox instead of going outside. She would desperately howl at the door to be let in to use the litterbox. When we were moving we had a long car trip and she wouldn't go in her carrier. We stopped at a rest stop and had to get her litterbox out for her to go. 

Mom told me that her highest priority for me to fix is the back door. She thinks I can just pop the door in and has no idea what a pain it will be to clean this up, replace the floor, install a proper header at the correct height. It also needs flashing, a non-rotted sill, etc. She's never actually done any sort of handywork so she has no concept of what it is like.


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## Ron Van

zannej said:


> She thinks I can just pop the door in and has no idea what a pain it will be to clean this up, replace the floor, install a proper header at the correct height. It also needs flashing, a non-rotted sill, etc. She's never actually done any sort of handywork so she has no concept of what it is like.


Welcome to a man's world! I go through this with my wife all the time.


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## Eddie_T

Ron Van said:


> Welcome to a man's world! I go through this with my wife all the time.


Being married means the freedom to do whatever your wife wants.


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## zannej

I don't know how my dad handled it all those years. She kept expecting him to do stuff he didn't know how to do. After he died she got me a tiny handsaw (basically a coping saw) and wanted me to go cut up some huge oak branches that fell in the yard. The person our insurance paid to remove it just piled it up in the driveway. That saw wouldn't cut through a sapling much less oak. But she got mad at me and said "You always say 'no' to my ideas when I give you suggestions!" and I had to bite my tongue and to keep in "That's because your ideas are STUPID!" If she'd ever done manual labor in her life she might have an inkling. I think she planted some stuff in a garden maybe, but never did any of the heavy duty work.

I'm not married and don't plan to ever get married, but I pretty much became the "man" of the house after my father died.

I will say that I've known couples where the husband was in charge and the wife did everything she was told and very rarely argued. I prefer to see more equal relationships where people listen to one another and cooperate. But, I haven't really seen many examples of that-- which is why I have no desire to be in a relationship with anyone. I am happy being the crazy cat lady.

I haven't uploaded the pics yet, but I got my toilet seat installed.


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## zannej

Cover plate under the supply line to cover ugly cuts in vinyl.


New hinge put on the seat (note: the brackets came attached to the hinge this way)


Installed correctly


Current pic

Times the screwdriver was fumbled and fell into the toilet: 1
Times the bottom plate of the hinge kit fell off and into the toilet: 2
Times the bolts and brackets fell into the toilet: 3
Number of F-bombs uttered: 10+
Aside from trying to get the seat to go on the brackets (which I mentioned came attached to the hinge the wrong way), the hardest part was getting the cylinders of the old hinge out.
That stupid back plate for the new hinge didn't want to stay on though so I had to tape it on.

Edit: I haven't taken pictures yet, but I moved the large trash can over, put in a smaller one next to it (so I can put small stuff in it without getting up and stepping on the lever for the big can), put my squatty potty in, and put in a bath mat (although, I think the bath mat needs to be washed and it looks a lot darker in that lighting so I may go with a lighter bath mat and use that one as a cat bed).


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## zannej

More pics:


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## RedneckGrump

Great job there @zannej ... Is it a soft close toilet seat... But great job...

My wife and I used to run a small renovation business together... She is up on tools and building as much as I am... When we go out to dinner or out somewhere with friends and or family... She is very much a Lady, but when she's got her hard toes on, she is one of the guys and swears like me anytime...  I dunno about you guys, but I find it extremely sexy with a Lady in jeans and hard toes...
(wyked grin)


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## zannej

Thanks! I have a hard time finding hard toe shoes that fit me well. I had a pair but I have no idea where the went. My skin doesn't react well to denim. LOL. I mostly wear sweatpants and stretch fabrics. But I like loose stretch fabrics so I get men's pants. I am a tomboy out in public and a tomboy at home. I'm one of those women that they complain about who doesn't shave, doesn't wear makeup, etc. I just don't care.

Anyway, that laundry cart turned out more useful than I'd expected.




I discovered that the box of leveling mix flattened the crease that had been in the vinyl so I moved it over to another spot that still had a visible crease and will leave it to see if it flattens out.
Need to figure out how to get hard water stains and coin corrosion stains out of that sink now. Black side mirror will be going on the door in the bedroom. I might get a white mirror for inside the room. Eventually that little mirror above is getting replaced. I left them dirty to avoid my reflection showing.
I used the vacuum on the counter because some of the leveling powder spilled on it. Unintentionally sucked up some things I didn't want it to suck up so I will have to take it apart outside and look for what it grabbed.


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## RedneckGrump

Well, @zannej, You'll have to excuse me and let me apologize, I thought YOU were one of the guys here... I am so sorry... I am a little embarrassed, which I never get...

My brain is not working right now, but I have a mixture recipe to take all stains out of toilets and sinks... Still takes a little bit of work... But it will work... Now... Please remind me, if I don't get to you in the next day or so... Cuz the memory is not there... Need a boot in the a55 sometime to get me going... 

Again, I apologize for assuming you were one of the guys... Good Night, Sweet Dreams, and God Bless
Cheer~
Mike


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## RedneckGrump

zannej said:


> Thanks! I have a hard time finding hard toe shoes that fit me well. I had a pair but I have no idea where the went. My skin doesn't react well to denim. LOL. I mostly wear sweatpants and stretch fabrics. But I like loose stretch fabrics so I get men's pants. I am a tomboy out in public and a tomboy at home. I'm one of those women that they complain about who doesn't shave, doesn't wear makeup, etc. I just don't care.
> .


Sounds Great,  You go Girl!


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## zannej

Thanks, Redneck. No need to apologize. I get called a guy a LOT. Even my in-person friends joke that I'm a dude. Had a friend who not too long ago was talking about how all women do something (can't remember what) and I said "I don't do that" and he said "Well we all know you're not a woman!" LOL. I actually find it amusing. Also, I played male characters in video games to avoid getting vivid descriptions of male genitalia messaged to me. Pretty much the pre-graphical version of sending dick pics. Had some friends I played with for 5 years who thought I was a guy the entire time. So I'm never offended by it. I give off that vibe. LOL.

The Barkeeper's friend did nothing, but I've read white vinegar with lemon juice (to tone down the odor of vinegar) and baking soda can work. I've already tried baking soda and hydrogen peroxide on my toilet seat (which is closed cell phone). I tested barkeeper's friend on the underside and it did nothing. So, I'll try the vinegar, baking soda, and lemon juice. The lemon juice was right next to the baking soda at samsclub. LOL.

I know AAVs aren't ideal and used to be banned in my state (until they reverted to IPC 2016) but since the vent I spotted going into my wall does not go through the roof, I'm thinking of slapping an AAV on it in the attic. I'm tempted to run each fixture up through that wall (both toilets, the tubs, showers, & sinks) up to individual pipes with AAVs. Apparently so long as there is at least one pipe in the system that vents to the outside with a regular vent, it is ok to use AAVs. It's not great with septic tanks, but its better than s-traps.

As an aside, I have been thinking about the plumbing for the laundry room and realized the wall behind the tub is not that far away from the toilet and I could run its drain and vent to that wall instead of to the exterior wall. I could land the vent in the adjacent stud pocket or even same stud pocket to the main vent and then tee it over either in the attic or in the wall above the showerhead. The lavatory could be vented to the exterior wall or out around it.


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## zannej

Another plumbing sketch (too late to edit).


Tying the washing machine that far downstream might not be necessary if I'm understanding the code correctly- and its from UPC but I'm under IPC.
_From the 2015 UPC Illustrated Training Manual_

*711.0 Suds Relief.
711.1 General. *Drainage connections shall not be made into a drainage piping system within 8 feet (2438 mm) of a vertical to horizontal change of direction of a stack containing suds-producing fixtures. Bathtubs, laundries, washing machine standpipes, kitchen sinks, and dishwashers shall be considered suds-producing fixtures. Where parallel vent stacks are required, they shall connect to the drainage stack at a point 8 feet (2438 mm) above the lowest point of the drainage stack.
*Exceptions:*
(1) Single-family residences
(2) Stacks receiving the discharge from less than three stories of plumbing fixtures
-
My home fits both exceptions.


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## RedneckGrump

@zannej  I gotta think about this... My brain is NOT working at all at the moment... I copied all the above...


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## Ron Van

zannej said:


> Another plumbing sketch (too late to edit).


You're pretty good with sketch-up. My sketch-up drawing look pretty primitive compared to yours. Do you use the free version?


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## zannej

Ron Van, I use the pro version. I just splurged and got some of Fredo's plugins but I need to install them. I'm still terrible at lining up the pipes in sketchup though.
I just got completely distracted by one of my cats running around the room like a nutjob. He's now hollering at me. 
Anyway, upon further research I discovered that the suds relief rule is obsolete with the newer front-load machines. My revised sketch:


And I can use these for where the pipes go through exterior walls: Low Profile Master Flash®


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## Ron Van

zannej said:


> Ron Van, My revised sketch:
> View attachment 28572


How far is the toilet from the main vent stack?


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## zannej

Ron Van said:


> How far is the toilet from the main vent stack?


~5' and it has to be within 6'. But I can run it to the wall a little bit closer and then branch over (as I don't want to conflict with water supply lines and other stuff). 
I'm starting to think rather than adding 45s to the vent or drain on the lav I can jut push it all the way through the wall and have a membrane designed specifically for pipes going through exterior walls. Low Profile Master Flash® and then have it go under the house. I can wrap the exposed drain part in insulation.

One concern I have about connecting to that vent is that I think it is only 2" (if it is that large) and if I am reading the rules properly, it can only handle 6dfu and I'd be putting 8 dfu on it. However, the shower will never be run while the laundry is running so the max that would be running at one time is 5. (toilet and washing machine are 3dfu each and tub is 2dfu). It's unlikely the toilet would be flushed while the shower is running. I could be mistaken on the max dfu for a 2" vent though.


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## zannej

I'm going to need new walls around my tub/shower. Found a potential one but its' out of stock. 59" and I have a 60" space but I can make it 59" or thereabouts with some cementboard. Might still look and see what they have in stock locally at the hardware store. I'm looking at glue-up stuff. Wish I could find direct-to-stud for a decent price that would fit with my current tub. I believe this tub has no flange though. For the cementboard I'm looking at: https://www.lowes.com/pd/James-Hardie-0-42-in-x-36-in-x-60-in-Fiber-Cement-Backer-Board/1001066302
It's $24/sheet and only 3'x5' so I will need more boards. Also considering the purple drywall https://www.lowes.com/pd/Gold-Bond-...-ft-x-8-ft-PURPLE-XP-Drywall-Panel/1002062128 which is 4'x8'. I will be painting/sealing it up.
I was thinking of going with this tape: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Saint-Goba...onstruction-Self-Adhesive-Joint-Tape/50183375 or this Fibafuse stuff https://www.lowes.com/pd/Saint-Goba...x-250-ft-Mesh-Construction-Joint-Tape/4411371
I think it would work with either option of board. Also thinking of getting Drylok paint but considering using flex seal in the corners and over the screws. The tape doesn't require mud to adhere-- it is self-adhering, but I'm pretty sure I need to put something over the tape.

So, any suggestions on this?


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## RedneckGrump

Hello @zannej 
I am a little high on drugs at the moment, wasn't a good day for pain... I have some stuff in the garage for waterproofing the tub or shower walls... Two coats and NO moisture will make it to the inner wall... I am so sure of this stuff, I didn't go with cement board... Went strictly with drywall... Did my last house like that... and had a tub, and shower separate... and never had a moisture or mould problem... It was very expensive... But I am sure in the States it's affordable... I will get the name of it for you tomorrow, and in case I forget this conversation, Just give me a little kick...
Chow~~
me


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## Ron Van

zannej said:


> I'm going to need new walls around my tub/shower. Found a potential one but its' out of stock. 59" and I have a 60" space but I can make it 59" or thereabouts with some cementboard. Might still look and see what they have in stock locally at the hardware store. I'm looking at glue-up stuff.



It seems that 60" surrounds are more common like this one from Lowes; 



			https://www.lowes.com/pd/allen-roth-48-inX34-inX78-in-Shower-Wall-in-Carrara-White/5001743621
		


It can be installed over cement board, drywall or even old tile (if it's flat). 



zannej said:


> I think it would work with either option of board. Also thinking of getting Drylok paint but considering using flex seal in the corners and over the screws. The tape doesn't require mud to adhere-- it is self-adhering, but I'm pretty sure I need to put something over the tape.



Yes. Here's a good video on a shower install. 



The waterproof membrane RedNeckGrump was thinking of is RedGuard, or from Lowes it's called AquaDefense. You paint it on with a roller or brush (usually two coats) and it's bulletproof. I used Red Guard on a bath remodel in our old house and again on a kitchen remodel in our current house.


View attachment IMG_0612a - edit.jpg


This shower turned out beautiful but it was very expensive.




Here you can see the pex plumbing of the Hansgrohe iBox rough in for the shower valve.





I used cement board and red guard on the entire floor before tiling it. I know now that I should have sealed the screw holes. Oh well, maybe next time. 





This was a custom corian shower surround that was marvelous but cost $8K. The glass was another couple K. My challenge now is to build two new baths in our current home, that looks nice, for way less! I'm looking at off the shelf solid panels that glue to cement board. I will use the waterproof membrane over the cement board.




I finished this just before covid hit. At that time, my wife said, "We're moving out of this state!" and here we are in Alabama starting a new project!



Original Bath. The shower was leaking out of the hinge side of the crappy little door and rotted a hole in the floor that I had to fix during the re-model. You can see the discolored linoleum. I vowed to waterproof the heck out of everything. 





I ended up cutting the wall back and replacing the floor sheathing here where the shower door leaked. This is what happens when showers are not waterproofed properly.



This is where the floor rot was. The wall was cut back and then extended later. The flooring around the toilet had to be replaced as well.


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## Ron Van

I cut out the rotted area around the toilet flange








Cut the flange off.





I had to build a frame for the new floor sheathing to rest on.




Tiled around it 

I used a Culwell Floor protecting toilet flange. I may have gone overboard but I was determined to waterproof this bathroom!




There is no way for water to get to the floor even if the wax ring fails. I used red Guard all around the flange before I tiled.



This is a two piece toilet. The top part of the toilet sits on top of the plastic bottom gizmo. It's pretty nice to be able to see the toilet piece on the wax ring before setting the toilet on it. 











I liked the two piece toilet for the ease of installation but my wife liked the smooth sides on the base for ease of cleaning.





I've installed three of these toilets so far and no complaints.


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## Ron Van

This picture didn't post properly above. It's the Red Guard treatment over the sheetrock. The solid surface shower surround doesn't require cement board. 





Because of the surround that was used on this project, there is no way for water to escape the surround system. On my next shower install, that may not be the case so I will waterproof a little better before installing the surround. 





They used foam under the corian shower pan (which was very ridgid). A 2" compression type drain was used. 




The corian was glued to the wall but notice the sheet is not full height yet.






The top section was glued on to the the bottom section like a coutertop would be done.








Then, corner pieces were glued (bonded) in. 






Then they used a special router to make a radius in the corners making it appear like a solid one piece surround.




The seams were invisible. They glued the grab handle and shelves in place. Whatever they used to glue it, it was solid. You could hang on those shelves. The bottom shelf was for my wife to put her foot on to shave her legs. Notice the concealed drain.




The dogs are inspecting the work. You may recognize them from my kitchen remodel post in our new home. 





We were using the old shower right up to the last minute during this remodel. This photo shows a vent line in the pony wall (that was removed). That vent line replacement became the biggest challenge of the entire remodel. Like I mentioned before, Vent lines take up the majority of the plumbing code because they are complex!


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## zannej

Redneck, any sort of building supplies are expensive in my area. I wonder if just the Drylok will work or flex seal. Looked it up and red guard isn't carried locally. Aqua Defense or something from Mapei is though. It's expensive. I'd have to compare prices with something like Drylok. I still plan to use the purple board since I'm familiar with it & we've used it before at my friend's house.

I want to get a decent surround but want to stay under $400 if possible. I like plain white.

Ron, thank you for the pictures and input. That closet flange is very cool. I wonder if it fits inside a 4" hub or just inside regular 4" pipe. Found one on ebay "new" for $15. Might jump on it and order it. I wonder if they have more than one and if I should get one for each bathroom. I also wonder what installation procedure is for surface mount on a floor with vinyl sheet.

I found specs for my toilet and decided that a pressure treated 2x12 can work as a platform to lift it a little higher. It will make it the same height as my friend's toilet. I can set the other toilet on it, trace the shape, mark the bolt-holes to line up the flange, cut a hole for the drain, use 4" screws to anchor the flange to the platform & the toilet (after painting the board). So, it's more of a board than a platform.

Cat presented my face with his butt and made me lose my train of thought. Then another one bounced in here and accidentally cut my lip with a claw on his back foot.

I forgot to comment on the video of Jeff. I have been watching a lot of his videos. He's entertaining. bonus points for him quoting Red Green.


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## zannej

I found your review on Amazon, Ron. I thought the pictures looked familiar. Mom's bathroom has the same thing going on with a joist/beam being close to the flange. It's what stopped the toilet from entirely falling through the floor when the subfloor gave in. Looks like the A43 is sold out or only sold in massive packs instead of single. I'm hoping the 4" one could still work. https://www.ebay.com/p/698152018


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## Ron Van

zannej said:


> I found your review on Amazon, Ron. I thought the pictures looked familiar.


How ‘bout that! I didn’t think anyone would ever see that review!


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## Ron Van

That’s a good price for the culwell flange. The flange should be above the surrounding floor by 1/4”. If not, there are flange extensions you can get.


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## zannej

I plan to sit the ring flush on the surface and I think that nylon ring will bring it up high enough. The better than wax seal has enough of a cushion to make it fit right. 
Last night I started feeling sick from smelling sewer gases coming from my bathroom. Went in and moved a bunch of stuff out, poured a bunch of water down the drain to try to fill the S-trap but it got siphoned right out. The bathtub plug had slipped out so I put it back in and put something on to of it to hold it in place. Feld a bad headache and cruddy afterward but no more sewer gas smell. But that is plugged up for now at least.


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## Ron Van

zannej said:


> Last night I started feeling sick from smelling sewer gases coming from my bathroom. Went in and moved a bunch of stuff out, poured a bunch of water down the drain to try to fill the S-trap but it got siphoned right out.


A proper vent prevents a siphon in the S (Or P) trap. Here’s an article on why S traps aren’t used anymore. 









						S-Trap vs. P-Trap: The Drain Line Savior
					

These traps are crucial for your plumbing system.



					www.lloydsplumbing.net
				




I converted our kitchen S trap to a P trap and installed a AAV (Air admittance valve). 

A tub might be harder. I’m not sure because I don’t know how yours is plumbed. One of my tubs goes directly into the crawlspace but is a P trap


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## zannej

I have an above-the-floor drain and they cut through one of the floor joists completely to run the drain because the builders were morons. None of the fixtures in my house have proper vents. The plumber tried to add circuit vents but they don't necessarily help. Keep in mind the people who built this house installed carpet in the bathrooms, reversed polarity on the outlets, and didn't have grounding wires in 3 prong outlets.
AAVs used to be against plumbing code in this state but in 2016 the code was reverted to IPC 2012. From what I've been told, AAVs are not ideal with septic tank systems. But I may use them. My mother's toilet has the wrong fittings but branches off to a vent inside my wall but I know it doesn't go through the roof and I didn't see any signs that it connected to the main vent stack (the only vent through the roof) on the opposite side of the house. So, my guess is that it either terminates inside the wall or in the attic. I don't have a ladder the right size to safely climb up in the attic to look- even if I stand on the very top of the ladder- which I don't trust doing.

I bought two of those flanges. They only had the 4" version but that should be ok. If I need to cut a larger hole in my bathroom floor there is enough space to do so because the leveling mix goes around the flange but not under it. I wanted to buy 3 but the seller only had 2.

Ron, link to your review (or at least the reviews for the flange which is out of stock on amazon) Amazon.com: Customer reviews: Culwell A43 Floor Protecting Toilet Flange, 4" x 3"

The 3" and 4" versions are also on Ebay for $19 but are "open box". Open box often means something is missing even if they don't mention it. Although, we bought "new" stuff that was open box/used before.


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## Ron Van

zannej said:


> I've been told, AAVs are not ideal with septic tank systems. But I may use them.



I haven't heard this about AAV and septic. I also have septic and have an AAV (Air Admittance Valve in lieu of a vent to open air). If you have any info on why it is not advised to use AAV in a septic system, I'd be interested in knowing about it.



zannej said:


> I don't have a ladder the right size to safely climb up in the attic to look- even if I stand on the very top of the ladder- which I don't trust doing.


Be careful with the ladder! I was trimming a crape myrtle earlier this year and a branch I was cutting slapped me off the ladder. My head hit a rough brick wall and the end result was 7 staples in my head. The worst part was I tore the rotator cuff in my left arm and will require surgery. The surgery has a long recovery period, so I'm putting it off for now. When I got home from the ER, I went out and finished the job. I topped a total of 12 trees that day. And yes, they grew back beautifully this summer.


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## Eddie_T

@Ron Van I had never ventured a look at skirted toilets just assuming they mounted the standard archaic way. The Kohler mounting technique is clever. Maybe other mfgrs will take the hint. So far I am sticking with my old Kohler Rochelle single piece toilets because I like their appearance and they are color matched. I think they are about a six gallon flush and I paid $186 for a new mechanism for one of them. I have one in avocado green and one in black. In those days colored and patterned toilet tissue were popular as well


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## zannej

Ron-- ouch! I'm glad you're ok. After a few mini-strokes my dad got up on a ladder to cut a branch- that the ladder was leaning on. Fell and broke his ribs. I wish I'd been out there to point out his error before he fell. Another time he was riding his tractor under a tree. The rollbar pushed a branch out of the way but it snapped back and slapped him in the back- cracking some vertebrae and knocking him off his tractor. 

From what I read the methane from the septic tank can cause the flap in the AAV to deteriorate. But upon further reading, so long as the septic tank has at least one atmospheric vent (like the one that goes through my roof) it should be able to vent out the methane without destroying the AAVs. 

Eddie, The skirted toilets look neat but I've seen some that are a nightmare to install and very difficult to access the bolts. I wish I had a picture but we used to have an avocado green toilet. We were going to donate it to something like a Re-Store but we had set it outside and the a-hole horse kicked it over (on purpose) and shattered it. That horse LOVED to break things. We found out pretty quick why his previous owners sold him for so cheap.


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## zannej

I believe I've found a solution for some of the gaps in the bathrooms & maybe even in the kitchen. Instatrim is looking interesting. Kitchen really needs it and I think I can use it around the perimeter of my tub and the back of my vanity.
Thinking of getting this tub surround: MUSTEE Durawall 30 in. x 60 in. x 58 in. 3-Piece Easy Up Adhesive Alcove Bath Tub Surround in White 350WHT - The Home Depot


It's glue-up and I have a Delta corner shelf grab bar I can put in. Which is why I want the squared off corners. My current shower has these ugly yellowed built-in shelves and there are a total of 4 & are pretty shallow. In addition to the grab bar shelf, I want to add more shelving-- thinking a tension rod style shelf thingy might work. I also plan to keep my existing shower curtain rod to put against the back wall and I can add little hooks or something to hang stuff like back scrubbers. I'm seriously thinking of getting some soap & shampoo dispensers to mount to the shower wall on the side with the grab bar instead of having bottles in the shower.



I may frame out the top and side edges of the shower with some sort of vinyl chair rail trim or something.
I'm currently trying to decide which item to get for corner shelves. 

Additionally, I was thinking of adhering some aluminium L stock to the edges of the tub to make a flange of sorts to direct water into the tub should there be any leaks. I don't really like the fugly glue-up trim that is on there now and he caulk underneath it looks like hot glue.


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## Ron Van

@zannej That looks like it would work well!


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