# New ceiling light question.



## tacoeater (Jan 27, 2018)

So I installed a new ceiling light in my living room, used 14/3 (red not used) wire to drop down to my kitchen / dining room switches. 
The kitchen and dining room lights are controlled by a single double switch. There is one free hot black common wire in the switch box from when they installed the double switch. 
My question is how do I wire the new ceiling light into the existing box? I connected the black common wire to the free hot common black wire in the box, added the green ground wire to the existing double switch green ground screw. But what do I do with the white wire?
I will be using a new switch that has two black wires and a green ground wire.
Heres a quick drawing of what Im talking about, no my 7 year old did not draw it. JK! 
Thanks. View attachment Paper.Paper Tools.2.jpg


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## JoeD (Jan 27, 2018)

Tell us about all the wire in the box.
A loose black just sitting there unused does mean it will work for you new fixture.
Are there any white connected together in the box?
What wires are connected to the other switches?


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## tacoeater (Jan 27, 2018)

JoeD said:


> Tell us about all the wire in the box.
> A loose black just sitting there unused does mean it will work for you new fixture.
> Are there any white connected together in the box?
> What wires are connected to the other switches?





Thanks Joe, two wires drop down to the switch box. One is a two wire cable with a black (free now) and a white wire controlling the dining room lights. The other one is a three wire cable with a green, white and black wire controlling the kitchen lights. 
I installed the double switch using the black wire and green wire from the three wire cable and used the white wires from each light to connect to the switch. That switch works perfect now so I figure I did that part right. That leaves me with the free common wire.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 27, 2018)

What you have in that box, are only switch legs, with the hot pairs in the fixture boxes.

A hot pair is, generally, a black and a white conductor, the black being the hot of the pair. Depending on the age of the house you may not have a ground conductor in each romex.

The free black conductor you are referring to a "common", is the hot conductor from that fixture.

You can switch the new fixture, but you need to be entrepreneurial to do that.

You pigtail from the black connected to the common switch to one of the blacks of the new switch. You then remove the fixture connected to the romex with the "free" black conductor, when you have this ceiling box open you will find that that black is connected to the hot pair, you then disconnect that black from the hot, and connect that black to the grouped whites. Then at the switch box you connect the black from the 14/3 to the other black from the new switch, and you connect the white from the 14/3 to the "free" black.

If you didn't get lost, the new fixture should work.


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## tacoeater (Jan 27, 2018)

Thank you Snoonyb, I understand most of your instructions but kind of lost on the fixture box wiring. Right now the fixture Green, White and Black are connected to the 14/3 Green, White and Black wire. When I disconnect the black wire from the fixture and connect it to the grouped whites what happens to the black from the 14/3 wire?
One last question, the green ground wire from the new switch and the 14/3, do I group them together with the existing switch green or just group the new switch with the new 14/3? In the fixture box I grouped the green of the 14/3 and the fixture wire and also grounded them out to the new metal fixture box.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 27, 2018)

Just to clarify, 14/2 with a grnd. is referred to as 14/2 & grnd., because the current carrying conductors are the numerical identifiers.

*From post #3; "One is a two wire cable with a black (free now) and a white wire controlling the dining room lights."*

This is the fixture I was referring to, which does not have a grnd. conductor, and is referred to as just 14/2.

Where the kitchen fixture is wired with a newer class of romex and is 14/2 & grnd.

The dining room fixture should be connected with the white from the dbl. switch to the fixture black, do not disturb this connection. The white from the fixture should connect to the grouped whites, and this is where you connect the "free" black conductor.


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## tacoeater (Jan 27, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> Just to clarify, 14/2 with a grnd. is referred to as 14/2 & grnd., because the current carrying conductors are the numerical identifiers.
> 
> *From post #3; "One is a two wire cable with a black (free now) and a white wire controlling the dining room lights."*
> 
> ...




Ok, I think this should be left to a pro, really lost. I thought all the re wiring was go be made at the new fixture box that I know since I installed it. 
Thanks again.


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## tacoeater (Jan 27, 2018)

Just read your edit, Ill try to make sense of it now.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 27, 2018)

Also, before you button things up there are a couple of things son that you don't have to rely on memory, and others can easily Identify whats going on.


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## tacoeater (Jan 27, 2018)

Well, calling a pro in. Anyone in San Diego up for the job?


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## Snoonyb (Jan 27, 2018)

Could you elaborate on where the difficulties lie?


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## tacoeater (Jan 27, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> Could you elaborate on where the difficulties lie?





Just not sure where to do the changes, I mean you explain it pretty well but to someone like me that has no knowledge of how everything works is kind of confusing. I was hoping the changes were just in the switch box and the new fixture box. Im more of a diagram guy I guess. But I do appreciate your time.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 27, 2018)

tacoeater said:


> Just not sure where to do the changes, I mean you explain it pretty well but to someone like me that has no knowledge of how everything works is kind of confusing. I was hoping the changes were just in the switch box and the new fixture box. Im more of a diagram guy I guess. But I do appreciate your time.



There are actually two ways to have accomplished it, and the one I described keeps you out of the attic.

So now I'll tell you that which requires time on your hands and knees, in the attic.

Somewhere in the attic, hopefully, will be a 4s "J" box where the hot pairs for the light fixtures "J" box from. From there you can connect a 14/2, a new hot pair, to the new fixture box. You connect the black from the 14/2 too the black from the 14/3 running to the switch box, At the switch box you connect the black to 1 of the blacks on the switch and connect the red from the 14/3 too the other black from the switch.

At the fixture box you connect the red too the fixture black and the white to the white from the new hot pair.

If the 4s "J" box does not exist or is disproportionately dislocated, the other option is to open an existing fixture box and pull the hot pair from there.

A couple of cautions; Do not simply stuff the conductors into a wirenut and hope, always twist all connections together prior to installing the wirenuts.

When you use the white conductor to power a fixture, wrap a piece of black tape on both ends, which identifies it as a hot.

Safe-off all unused conductors with a wirenut.

If you have a VOM, Volt, Ohm Meter, and there are inexpensive options, you can Identify the presence of 240V in a junction or switch box and avert a disaster.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 27, 2018)

I hadn't gotten to the new fixture yet, because of the detail.

All of the connections were in the switch box and the dining Rm. ceiling box, so there was a path to power the new fixture.


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## JoeD (Jan 27, 2018)

Sounds like you have two switch loops which means no neutral. Were all four of the original wires connected to the original double switch. 
Ignore the green and bare ground wires.


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## tacoeater (Jan 27, 2018)

JoeD said:


> Sounds like you have two switch loops which means no neutral. Were all four of the original wires connected to the original double switch.
> Ignore the green and bare ground wires.





Yes, originally there were two switches, one for the kitchen and one for the diner. Since I didnt want to cut in a 3 gang box I went with the double switch and added a second switch for the living room in the same 2 gang box. One switch (kitchen) originally had the 3 wires and the second one (diner) had the 2 wires. Took the 3 wire black and green wires and one white from both to make the double switch work, leaving me with one free hot wire.


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## JoeD (Jan 28, 2018)

You had two switch loops. There is no neutral in that box to use for your new fixture. You must find a power source before you can connect you new fixture.


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## tacoeater (Jan 28, 2018)

Ok guys, I finally jumped right in to get it done. I removed the diner fixture like Snoonyb said I found the grouped white as the 3 taped up and the one Im suppose to join to them is the one going to the switch from the two grouped ones shown. Correct so far? I then reattach the other remaining two wires to the fixture again. Correct? I probed the wires and the single wire is the live hot one.  Ill wait for ok before proceeding. 
Thank you.
View attachment IMG_9645.jpg


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## Snoonyb (Jan 28, 2018)

tacoeater said:


> Ok guys, I finally jumped right in to get it done. I removed the diner fixture like Snoonyb said I found the grouped white as the 3 taped up and the one Im suppose to join to them is the one going to the switch from the two grouped ones shown. Correct so far? I then reattach the other remaining two wires to the fixture again. Correct? View attachment 18645
> 
> Ill wait for ok before proceeding.
> Thank you.



That's the old cloth wrapped romex w/o a ground.

Are you working with the breaker off? If not you should be.

Of the two twisted conductors, they need to be separated and the one that ends in the switch box, connected to the whites, and the other, which is the hot, wirenuted and left that way.

You may be able to easily determine which of the romex's are which, and if not you need a VOM.

At the switch box connect the "FREE" black to the white from the 14/3 of the new fixture, the black pigtail from the double switch to the new switch for the new fixture and the black of the 14/3 to the new fixture to the other black of the new switch.Wirenut the red of the 14/3.


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## tacoeater (Jan 28, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> That's the old cloth wrapped romex w/o a ground.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Yes, power off at breaker box. 
If I run the switch one of the two twisted wires to grouped whites and wirenut the remaining one, then what other do I connect to the diner fixture since it will be only leaving me with one wire. Or did you mean to wirenut it to the fixture? I forgot to mention in my original post that that free wire in the switch box is already hot, does that matter?


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## Snoonyb (Jan 28, 2018)

Thanks.

How was the dining rm. fixture connected before?


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## tacoeater (Jan 28, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> Thanks.
> 
> How was the dining rm. fixture connected before?





It was connected to that single wire and to the two twisted wires. The three grouped wires were tucked in the way they are now.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 28, 2018)

Thanks.

The neutral was switched, instead of the hot.

Are those pictured the only conductors/connections in the box?


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## tacoeater (Jan 28, 2018)

Yes, thats all of them, but I did noticed that they came into the box from different directions. Did you get my edit where I forgot to mention in my original post that the free wire in my switch box is live/hot with power on at the breaker box? View attachment IMG_9649.jpg


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## JoeD (Jan 28, 2018)

The single black wire looks like the one that should go on and off when you flip the switch.
The one with blacks and a white is the constant hot. Take the tape off and put on a wire nut. Do not remove any of the wires from the bunch.

Connect the new fixture to the single black and the bunch of whites with wire nuts.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 28, 2018)

Thanks again.

Ok hold off on separating the conductors mentioned.

In reviewing the photos, it appears the there is a combination of Knob and Tube and romex, which amplifies the discussion, and raises some questions.

In the attic are there individual conductors held off the sides of the ceiling joists by ceramic knobs and when they run through framing members there is a ceramic tube?


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## tacoeater (Jan 28, 2018)

JoeD said:


> The single black wire looks like the one that should go on and off when you flip the switch.
> The one with blacks and a white is the constant hot. Take the tape off and put on a wire nut. Do not remove any of the wires from the bunch.
> 
> Connect the new fixture to the single black and the bunch of whites with wire nuts.





The single one and the 3 grouped ones are always constant hot, I have a probe,  the two grouped together have no power and also dont get power when I flip the switch but not  sure if its because the fixture is disconnected.


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## tacoeater (Jan 28, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> Thanks again.
> 
> Ok hold off on separating the conductors mentioned.
> 
> ...





I only have about 2 feet of crawl space in my attic, plus all the ducts from my ac/heater unit all in the way. I do remember seeing a J box in a far corner where all the wires come out of. To drop the new wiring to the switch and to the new fixture was a nightmare for me being 6 tall and 275lbs. Something I dont want to go thru again. I really appreciate all your time guys, but its looking like this job is not for me.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 28, 2018)

Don't give up yet, we're getting closer, we just need to understand your wiring.

Are the 2 twisted conductors hot with the switch on?


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## tacoeater (Jan 28, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> Don't give up yet, we're getting closer, we just need to understand your wiring.
> 
> Are the 2 twisted conductors hot with the switch on?





With the fixture disconnected no. But not sure if that matters. Switch on or off no power on it.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 28, 2018)

tacoeater said:


> I only have about 2 feet of crawl space in my attic, plus all the ducts from my ac/heater unit all in the way. I do remember seeing a J box in a far corner where all the wires come out of. To drop the new wiring to the switch and to the new fixture was a nightmare for me being 6 tall and 275lbs. Something I dont want to go thru again. I really appreciate all your time guys, but its looking like this job is not for me.



2', that's funny, been there done that in the LA basin.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 28, 2018)

tacoeater said:


> With the fixture disconnected no. But not sure if that matters. Switch on or off no power on it.



Doesn't matter, I'm pretty sure it's switched, that's the neutral and thats what we need for the new fixture, just not one that's switched.

You that with your proximity voltage tester there is voltage on the 3 conductors wrapped in tape. Are they all white?


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## tacoeater (Jan 28, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> Doesn't matter, I'm pretty sure it's switched, that's the neutral and thats what we need for the new fixture, just not one that's switched.
> 
> 
> 
> You that with your proximity voltage tester there is voltage on the 3 conductors wrapped in tape. Are they all white?





No, looks like one white and two blacks. View attachment IMG_9650.jpg


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## Snoonyb (Jan 28, 2018)

Sorry for the delay, and the disassembly, its been a long time since I've worked on K&T.

I think you're correct, you'll need a local tradesman. the 2 blacks and white are probably a switch and a couple of receptacles.


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## tacoeater (Jan 28, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> Sorry for the delay, and the disassembly, its been a long time since I've worked on K&T.
> 
> I think you're correct, you'll need a local tradesman. the 2 blacks and white are probably a switch and a couple of receptacles.





Hey no worries, I really appreciate the effort. Thanks.


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## JoeD (Jan 29, 2018)

Hook up a test light to the single black and the neutrals and turn on the switch. What happens.


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## tacoeater (Jan 29, 2018)

JoeD said:


> Hook up a test light to the single black and the neutrals and turn on the switch. What happens.





Sorry about the delay. No change with switch on or off. Everything connected it did turn the light on and off. But switch off or on there is power to the single wire and the 3 grouped wires.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 30, 2018)

Just to clarify, In post #18 you said; "I probed the wires and the single wire is the live hot one.", has that changed?


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## JoeD (Jan 30, 2018)

> Everything connected it did turn the light on and off



So what is the problem? the light goes on and off with the switch. What else do you want to happen?

I suspect you are using a digital meter and getting a phantom voltage reading.


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## tacoeater (Jan 30, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> Just to clarify, In post #18 you said; "I probed the wires and the single wire is the live hot one.", has that changed?





Yes, the single wire is a hot live wire and also the 3 grouped wires are hot.


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## tacoeater (Jan 30, 2018)

JoeD said:


> So what is the problem? the light goes on and off with the switch. What else do you want to happen?
> 
> I suspect you are using a digital meter and getting a phantom voltage reading.





We are now looking at the diner wire box, that is the one you questioned the wires and what they did with the switch on or off. 

Not using a digital meter. Just a probe that you touch the wires with. Lights up green, red when hot.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 30, 2018)

So, post #37?


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## tacoeater (Jan 30, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> So, post #37?





He asked me to check what it did with flipping the switch and I told him it made no difference. Theres is always a hot feed on the single wire and the 3 grouped wires, flipping the switch made no difference. Then I mentioned that the diner fixture works fine with everything connected before I opened it up as you suggested. Its still open now waiting on tradesman to come look at it. 
(Talking about Diner wire box that you asked me to open up)


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## Snoonyb (Jan 30, 2018)

I thought he was talking about the dining rm box, and I thought that post #37 was referencing the dining rm box, but if you were both referencing the switch box, without specifically identify it, I got lost.

On another subject. If the Elec. determines that you need a home run for the new fixture, how new is your service and do you still have a fuse block in the laundry rm/back porch area?


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## tacoeater (Jan 30, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> I thought he was talking about the dining rm box, and I thought that post #37 was referencing the dining rm box, but if you were both referencing the switch box, without specifically identify it, I got lost.
> 
> On another subject. If the Elec. determines that you need a home run for the new fixture, how new is your service and do you still have a fuse block in the laundry rm/back porch area?





He was asking about the dining room box, but wanted me to check what the switches did as I flipped them.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 30, 2018)

Thanks, so, how's your service?


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## tacoeater (Jan 30, 2018)

The house was built in 1947 but has the breaker box located in the front side of the house. I think that is what you are asking.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 30, 2018)

Can you post a photo of the service and meter, also the weather-head?

The weather-head is the knuckle at the top of the service mast, where SDGE connects.

I'm asking so I can give you an Idea of what to expect.


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## tacoeater (Jan 31, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> Can you post a photo of the service and meter, also the weather-head?
> 
> The weather-head is the knuckle at the top of the service mast, where SDGE connects.
> 
> I'm asking so I can give you an Idea of what to expect.





Well 2 hours later and $275.00 less in my wallet I have a working living room fixture. He ended up running new wires from the J box in the attic to my new fixture and to my switch location, also rewired my dining room fixture. 
Thanks all for the help, learned a lot with this project. 

#HappyWifeHappyLife


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## Snoonyb (Jan 31, 2018)

tacoeater said:


> well 2 hours later and $275.00 less in my wallet i have a working living room fixture. He ended up running new wires from the j box in the attic to my new fixture and to my switch location, also rewired my dining room fixture.
> Thanks all for the help, learned a lot with this project.
> 
> "#happywifehappylife


"

amen.


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