# Easy light switch power question.  But I’m dumb....



## dborns (Dec 22, 2019)

This is a question I’d normally make a quick phone call to my Dad to answer, but he passed recently so I’m on my own.  It should be easy to figure out, but I can’t get it.
I have a room under my porch.  It has a pull chain light on the ceiling, so that box is always hot. 
I removed the pull chain light and installed an outlet for a LED light, but I want to do two other things.  I want that light on a switch, and I want to install an outlet that’s always hot, not only when the switch is on.  
So, hot to the only light box, how do I run a switch to that, but also run a wire for a constant hot outlet?


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## Snoonyb (Dec 22, 2019)

You can add the recep. to or off the existing hot pair, and add a separate switch leg for the led.


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## pjones (Dec 22, 2019)

Turn the power off to the whole house when working on this please. For safety.


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## dborns (Dec 22, 2019)

Snoonyb, I understand that, but how do I do it?


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## Snoonyb (Dec 22, 2019)

What conductors are in  the ceiling box?


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## bud16415 (Dec 22, 2019)

First off sorry to hear about your dad. We never really know how much they helped us until they are no longer here.


We need to know where you want the switch and where you want the outlet?


You will have to be able to run a wire from the outlet to the switch box and also to the outlet box. If is outside the whole works needs to be powered from a GFCI breaker or a GFCI outlet that could be located on the ceiling next to the light or in the line feeding the light.


If getting wires from point A-B and A-C isn’t a problem and figuring out how to get a GFCI into the picture to protect it all and be up to code then we can tackle the wiring.


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## Jeff Handy (Dec 23, 2019)

It sounds like you might be attempting work beyond your level of ability, just a warning.


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## dborns (Dec 23, 2019)

Sorry I should have explained that.  The hot box is in the ceiling.  I want a constant hot outlet run off that on the wall, and obviously a switch just for the light on the opposite wall.


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## Jeff Handy (Dec 23, 2019)

The way you do this circuit and switch extension neatly, correctly, and safely, is to hire it out.


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## Snoonyb (Dec 23, 2019)

See post #5.


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## dborns (Dec 23, 2019)

Black, white, ground.


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## dborns (Dec 23, 2019)

It’s easy to run the wall outlet.  Just tap into the constant hot that’s going to the box now, I’m just trying to wrap my head around working that outlet in the ceiling as also switched.


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## dborns (Dec 23, 2019)




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## dborns (Dec 23, 2019)

Sorry for the bad drawing, it’s early.  So I have a constant hot, white, and ground at the ceiling box.  I removed the pull string bulb and put an outlet in because the LED light has a plug.  I want to run off that box to a constant hot outlet, but also want to put the ceiling box on a switch for the light.


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## bud16415 (Dec 23, 2019)

What I would do is from the hot Jbox in the ceiling I would run 2 new cables to the outlet location one B/W would then be connected to the hot pair in the ceiling with wire nuts and the (Line) side of a GFCI outlet in the wall. The other B/W at the outlet would be connected to the (Load) side of the GFCI outlet and return protected power to the ceiling. You then need to run a cable B/W down to the light switch location connecting both B/W across the switch to the 2 screws. Then in the ceiling connect the black from the (Load) line to your light and the black from your switch to the light and connect the 2 whites together with a wire nut.


Of course all the green/bare wires go to the green screws and get tied together. Do all the wiring with romex wire and if the walls are open staple the wires to the studs and joist every few feet. If the walls and ceilings are closed in you have to figure out how to fish the wires. The type of Jbox you use is also dependent on if it is new construction or old construction.


Doing it this way will give you GFCI protection at all porch locations that anyone would be touching outlet and switch.  


As always kill the power at the breaker before starting and check it at the ceiling that it is dead before starting with a meter.


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## dborns (Dec 23, 2019)

Understood.  But, could you explain without the GFCI in the equation?  That’ll clear some confusion for me.  This is inside, under the porch.  It’s like a sub basement.  No need for GFCI protection.


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## bud16415 (Dec 23, 2019)

That changes things a little. If you have an outlet in the ceiling make it what I call the light above.


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## bud16415 (Dec 23, 2019)

Basements do require GFCI protection.


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## mabloodhound (Dec 23, 2019)

That's a fairly simple job.  After turning the breaker off, disconnect the wires to the outlet in the ceiling box.  Run a new pair (black/white/grnd) to the wall outlet and this will connect to the b/w/g in the ceiling box.  Then run another pair to the switch box.  One wire will be connected to the hot black in the box and down to the switch and then back up off the other leg of the switch to the brass screw on the outlet in the ceiling.  Run a pigtail off the original hot white wire to the silver screw on the outlet.
So you end up in the ceiling box having the 3 black wires tied together and the two white wires and a pigtail tied together.  The white wire coming back from the switch is actually a hot black wire and should be marked as such.  Add wire nuts and close it up.


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## Snoonyb (Dec 23, 2019)

So, in connecting a recep. and a switched recep. from a single hot pair, first Identify and secure the breaker controlling the hot pair.

If the box the hot pair is in is other than a 4x2.125 octagon or a 4x1.50 sq. then you should change it to avoid overfill.

Locate and mount the box/s for the new recep. and switch.

Run the new conductors to the appropriate box/s location/s, leaving 6" of the conductors loose on both ends.

_*All of the ground conductors understood to be attached to the devices and boxes.*_

At the ceiling box group the black from the hot pair, the black to the wall recep. and the white to the switch, twist this group together and install a wire nut.
Group the white from the hot pair with the white to the wall recep., plus a 6" pigtail, twist and install a wire nut.

At the wall recep. box install a GFCI by connecting the conductors to the line terminals and grid., close the box.

At the wall switch wrap the white conductor with black tape and connect to the dark screw, connect the black conductor to the brass screw, close and cover the box.

At the ceiling box connect the black conductor from the switch to the hot side of the recep., and connect the white pigtail from the white group to the neutral side of the recep., assemble the box, cover and energize the circuit.


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## dborns (Dec 23, 2019)

Ok, thank you for that.  I’m more of a visual person, so I drew this up.  Does it look correct?


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## Snoonyb (Dec 23, 2019)

Cursorily, it appears correct, however, follow the specific directions offered for the method you chose to employ.


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## Jeff Handy (Dec 23, 2019)

Looks like two elephants at a water hole. 
One walking forward, one walking away.


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## dborns (Dec 24, 2019)

Now that you mention it, it does look pretty pitiful...


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## Jeff Handy (Dec 24, 2019)

Just teasing, circuit drawing was ok. 

It also looks like a Picasso version of a bald guy passed out on a table.


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## afjes_2016 (Dec 25, 2019)

I don't think the comments on what the drawing looks like are needed.
The OP did the best he could to illustrate the layout.

We are here to assist the DIYer. We are "professionals" in our trade.


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## Jeff Handy (Dec 25, 2019)

I was not criticizing it or his drawing style at all. 

Just making a harmless observation, plenty of room on here to have fun and say goofy things.


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## mabloodhound (Dec 26, 2019)

I do not see the proper connections in your drawing.  The hot black has to go to the switch and then back up to the ceiling receptacle using the white wire.  The hot black also goes to the wall outlet.  The white original wire goes to the wall outlet and a pigtail to the ceiling receptacle.


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## dborns (Dec 26, 2019)

”I don't think the comments on what the drawing looks like are needed.
The OP did the best he could to illustrate the layout.“

I appreciate it but I didn’t take it the wrong way at all....  I drew it 4 times trying to make it the easiest to understand, and that was the best I could come up with!  I should have had my 9 year old draw it.

Mabloodhound-  I’ll sit down and go through the description again, and redraw it for myself.  Seeing it in a schematic is easier for me to understand than reading it.

I do appreciate everyone’s advice.


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## dborns (Dec 27, 2019)

So after all the confusion on my part, I thought of an easier way to do this.  Maybe...

What if I tie the source wires into the wires coming from the wall outlet.  If I do this in the ceiling box, then run another wire up from the wall outlet to the ceiling outlet, I could then treat it as wiring an outlet on a switch with the source at the outlet.
Does that make sense, or is that not going to work?


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## mabloodhound (Dec 27, 2019)

Nope, does not make sense.  Your 'source' wires are already in the ceiling box.  All you need to do is run both the black and white (and grnd) down to the outlet box.  If you want the black hot wire to come off the wall outlet and up to the switch, you can do that and then you need another wire from the other switch terminal to go back up to the ceiling outlet (brass screw).  You still need the white pigtail in the ceiling box unless you're going to pull the white wire from the wall outlet and run that all the way up to the ceiling.


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## bud16415 (Dec 27, 2019)

dborns said:


> So after all the confusion on my part, I thought of an easier way to do this.  Maybe...
> 
> What if I tie the source wires into the wires coming from the wall outlet.  If I do this in the ceiling box, then run another wire up from the wall outlet to the ceiling outlet, I could then treat it as wiring an outlet on a switch with the source at the outlet.
> Does that make sense, or is that not going to work?




 This is what I suggested in post 15 and I suggested making the wall outlet a GFCI that has a ready connection clamp point for Line and Load. In doing this everything in the basement room would be GFCI protected including the ceiling outlet and switch. Per code.


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## dborns (Dec 28, 2019)

I’m not being lazy, but again I understand better from pics other than reading.  If someone has time to draw a schematic, that would clear things up for me I’m sure.


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## bud16415 (Dec 28, 2019)

dborns said:


> I’m not being lazy, but again I understand better from pics other than reading.  If someone has time to draw a schematic, that would clear things up for me I’m sure.



You described in post 30 it pretty well without a drawing. The only reason I suggested that method is because you described the area as a porch / extension of a basement. In those type of areas you are supposed to provide GFCI protection. Assuming you had a round or octagon Jbox in the ceiling and wanted to still hang a light from it I suggested placing the GFCI at a location easy to access for testing and resetting. If you have an outlet for a corded light fixture or a ceiling light it makes no difference as I don’t think most people would want a GFCI outlet on the ceiling and a regular outlet takes up less room thus providing easier wire fill without needing a larger ceiling box. You could even break out the jumpers on that outlet and have half switched and half always hot if you wanted.


If you don’t care about GFCI just follow the other plan as @mabloodhound suggested.


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## dborns (Dec 28, 2019)

Understood.  I picked up a few more items I needed and will draw out what you suggested.  
Thanks


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## dborns (Dec 29, 2019)

Ok, I’ll try another piece of artwork...  Again, thank you to all of you for helping.  I like to learn how to do stuff myself and not pay someone, so I’m learning.   Snoonyb, you mentioned a GFCI.  It’s a basement under the front steps, completely dry, so I will skip that.
Attached is the better drawing of what I’m thinking.  Please advise if I’m still totally off.
Run source B/W to wall outlet
Run hot off wall outlet to ceiling outlet
Run white off wall outlet to ceiling box and tie in to switch white
Run hot from switch to other terminal on ceiling outlet
Run white from switch to the tie in at the ceiling box from the wall outlet


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## Michael Armstrong (Dec 29, 2019)

I would be more inclined to run one pair (W/B) to the switch. At the switch, interrupt the hot (B) with the switch, and run the resulting (W/B) pair the to the light.


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## bud16415 (Dec 29, 2019)

https://www.ecmweb.com/national-ele...nts-for-groundfault-circuit-interrupters-gfci


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## mabloodhound (Dec 30, 2019)

No!  The hot black must go to the switch and then from the other switch terminal, to the ceiling outlet brass terminal.  The white goes to the other silver terminal on the outlet.


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## bud16415 (Dec 30, 2019)

I agree with @mabloodhound the way it is sketched would work but the switch is on the common/neutral leg so the outlet in the ceiling will go off and on but it will also always have a hot leg attached even with the switch off. People normally will flip a switch to change a bulb but seldom open the breaker. I know in your case you can pull the plug on the ceiling light for service. It is always better to switch the hot leg then with the switch off there is no power to the light or in this case outlet.


As to the wall outlet it is not best practice to use the second set of screws to continue the circuit. It is much better to use wire nuts and a pigtail to the outlet. The one exception would be if you used the GFCI outlet I recommended as they are made with one termination side labeled line where the hot pair connects and the other side labeled load where everything down stream is protected for GFCI. They also have a very secure wire clamp so all you have to do is strip the wires.


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## Jeff Handy (Dec 31, 2019)

Not “better” to switch the hot leg. 

It is “essential” and “required” to switch the hot leg. 

Neutral cannot be switched. 

Or people can die, appliances can burn up.


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## bud16415 (Dec 31, 2019)

Jeff Handy said:


> Not “better” to switch the hot leg.
> 
> It is “essential” and “required” to switch the hot leg.
> 
> ...



I agree it is not only to code but the safe thing to do in always switching the hot leg in residential wiring. On the other hand we buy grandma a table lamp with a non-polarized plug and don’t worry about her changing the bulb by simply turning the light off first.


These plugs and replacement plugs are still sold every day.


https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hubbell-15-Amp-Volt-White-2-Wire-Plug/50179179


Everyone should be aware of proper polarity with light socket wiring.


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## Fireguy5674 (Dec 31, 2019)

Bud, I have a question regarding your #40 post.  I have never heard don't use the second set of  screws on an outlet to extend a circuit as best practice.  I am not an electrician by trade but have done a lot of wiring over the years.  I have never heard that said before and rarely seen it done.  Normally when I have seen it, it was because there was more than two wires that needed tied together.  Where did you see this suggested as best practice?  As long as the wire for the extended circuit is securely fastened around the second screw I have never seen a failure.  Not trying to start a flap here, just truly curious.


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## bud16415 (Dec 31, 2019)

Fireguy5674 said:


> Bud, I have a question regarding your #40 post.  I have never heard don't use the second set of  screws on an outlet to extend a circuit as best practice.  I am not an electrician by trade but have done a lot of wiring over the years.  I have never heard that said before and rarely seen it done.  Normally when I have seen it, it was because there was more than two wires that needed tied together.  Where did you see this suggested as best practice?  As long as the wire for the extended circuit is securely fastened around the second screw I have never seen a failure.  Not trying to start a flap here, just truly curious.



I don’t think it is a code issue doing it both ways and I have done it both ways myself.


With doing pigtails if the outlet fails as they do sometimes you have no chance of loss of the outlets downstream. It is a bit more work doing the pigtails but in the future if you need to replace the outlet it is a simple straightforward task.


My dad taught me the pigtail method and told me the jumper bar was there with the other set of screws incase you wanted to split the outlet like switched and powered.


There is a lot written about it and most of the time the pros say the pigtail is the preferred method. That of course would depend on the skill of the guy doing the wire nut. For a while I was in the no pre-twist camp and as I went on I became convinced pre-twisting made a better joint. It is just what I prefer on all my joints I do in my personal home. Again like you I’m not a pro just a handyman doing my own work. 


https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/electrical/q-a-to-pigtail-or-not-to-pigtail_o


https://www.mikeholt.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/001774.html


https://www.mikeholt.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/005609-2.html


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## dborns (Dec 31, 2019)

This shouldn’t change how it’s wired, but just to be clear, the box in the ceiling will be a switched outlet.  I have an LED light installed in the ceiling that plugs in.
I want the wall outlet to be constant hot.


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## dborns (Dec 31, 2019)

And I always use pigtails on outlets and switches.  I didn’t start doing it thinking forwards the failure of an outlet, I just started doing it because it makes it a lot easier to wire nut than getting the wires on the terminals.  Especially when the person that did the work before you only leaves very little wire to work with....


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## bud16415 (Dec 31, 2019)

dborns said:


> This shouldn’t change how it’s wired, but just to be clear, the box in the ceiling will be a switched outlet.  I have an LED light installed in the ceiling that plugs in.
> I want the wall outlet to be constant hot.
> View attachment 23096



You still have B&W switched around. the black/hot wire wants to run unbroken to the switch. A wire nut in the ceiling box is fine. then the white wire coming back should have black tape on each end. it should go to the hot screw on the outlet and the white wire go to the neutral screw.


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## dborns (Dec 31, 2019)

Ok, I’ll try this one more time because I’m getting frustrated that I can’t figure it out, and I’m sure I’m p*****g you all off because I’m not catching on.  
-So, source power comes in to the ceiling box
-Wire nut the black from the constant hot wall outlet, the black going to the switch, and the source hot
-Wire nut the source neutral, the ceiling outlet neutral pigtail to the neutral side of the outlet,  and the neutral going to the wall outlet
-Run the neutral from the switch, (with elec tape on each end showing it’s hot), up to the brass terminal on the ceiling outlet
The black rectangles are wire nuts which would actually be in the ceiling box unlike the drawing shows.

If this isn’t correct, I’m done.  I’ll use a flashlight.....


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## bud16415 (Dec 31, 2019)

Here is what I would do. This is how we all learn stuff.
https://electriciansmesaaz.com/gfci-outlets-how-to-wiring-diagrams/


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## dborns (Dec 31, 2019)

Wow, I was way off.  That explains it perfectly.  Thank you.


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## bud16415 (Dec 31, 2019)

You are very welcome. 

Just be safe and kill all the power first to that circuit and double check with your meter it is off. I didn't show the bare ground wires but each romex will have them. attach them to the green screws and to each other and eventually back to the one in the ceiling feeding this project. 

Basically from the ceiling box you will run 2 romex to the GFCI box and one romex to the switch box. Not sure if you are pulling them thru finished walls if you are pull them both together to the GFCI box. If it is open construction run them together and staple them every couple feet. The black tape placed around the white wire is to show someone down the road it is not a white neutral wire but it has power and is actually a black wire. 

Don't feel bad about asking questions as you go and let us know how it turns out if you follow this plan.


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## dborns (Dec 31, 2019)

Will do.  I’ve done to many ignorant things while working on electricity, as in doing it while it’s hot...  
It is an open ceiling so an easy run.  I did staple the two lines I already ran, and will add a second to the GFCI box.  I encased each line in plastic conduit running down the wall for protection.  
I’ll be finishing this up Thursday afternoon when I get off work.  
Thanks again


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## Jeff Handy (Jan 1, 2020)

If there is a shared neutral up in the ceiling box, you will want to turn off the breaker for the other circuit that it is servicing. 

Or else kill main power, just to be safe.


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