# Some clarifications for kitchen outlets and GFCI



## condoowner (Jun 25, 2013)

Hello,

I have removed the outlets in my kitchen to install a backsplash and having completed the installation of it, I now want to install the outlets back.

The problem is that I forgot to document or take note of how the wiring was connected to the outlets.   Normally this would be no big deal since I have a general good understanding of electricity & I could simply put the outlets back the way I *think* they were installed but I have some concerns.

*Refer to my attached picture for nomenclature...*

At first, I had no idea of how the wiring was done and which breaker was controlling what..  I had done no testing (bad boy!).  SO I simply installed a conventional outlet to locations A, & C, and GFCI's to D & E.  I went to turn the breaker 26 & 28 and the main tripped! (not good!).

I immediately rtemoved everything and did some testing.

I have found that:

There are 3 breakers in the main panel (18/20, 26/28 & 6/8) controlling the kitchen outlets (marked by the electrician as so on the panel nomenclature sticker)
Breaker 6/8 controls Outlet B (not sure if fed directly from main since it uses 3 wires)
Breaker 18/20 controls the left wire of outlet A, right wire is dead.  Again, not sure if fed directly from main because of the 3 wires.
Breaker 26/28 controls the left wire of outlet C, right wire is dead.  Again, not sure if fed directly from main because of the 3 wires.

Outlets D & E are never alive so I assume they are fed from another outlet.  I have marked in purple the possible path I think of..  

So now to the questions:


Do you think my sketch is right, that is, are the purple connections correct?
If so, How can I install GFCI's to the outlets D & E with 3 wires? If they are feeding something else (hence the 3rd wire?) would that pose a problem?
Why is there a red wire in each outlet?  Whats the purpose of it?  As far as I know prior to stripping the kitchen, none of these outlets were controlled by a switch.
I have checked, all light switches and light fixtures are on a separate unrelated breaker

If all else fail, I will call an electrician.  

I appreciate any answers!!

Thanks!


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## nealtw (Jun 25, 2013)

On the old outlets, check to see if the little strap is removed to seperate the top and bottom plug, the strap is between the two screws on each side.


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## bud16415 (Jun 25, 2013)

Looks like you have 3 breakers controlling 5 outlets. The power from the breaker goes first to the GFCI and connects to the LINE connection the black wire goes to the side that says HOT the white goes to COMMON. The second outlet in each of the two A & C are controlled by the GFCI and are attached to the other set of screws marked LOAD. That way E & D  are just normal outlets but are GF protected by A & C.  B is just a stand alone GFCI and should just have wires attached to LINE.


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## CallMeVilla (Jun 25, 2013)

Unusual to find a red wire in a kitchen back splash outlet but it does typically have a purpose.  A red wire usually indicates one of the two outlets to be operated by a switch.  In this case, the strap Neal mentions would be removed, creating two separate outlet points.  The black wire would supply and "always on" power to one the one outlet and the red supplies power to the other outlet point which would be switchable.

You can test this easily by locating a likely switch and flipping it to see if you get power "on" or "off."


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## bud16415 (Jun 25, 2013)

The OP has checked all the switches in the room and none of them are on any of these three circuits. I would find it rare to have counter outlets controlled by a switch or used as a split outlet. That&#8217;s mostly seen in living and bedrooms with end table lights and such. Red and black are normally hot wires. Not sure what the OP means by being fed with 3 wires though. If he can look in the boxes and see if the red is coming in with the power or maybe it&#8217;s another cable that&#8217;s going out to the remote outlets E & D.


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## condoowner (Jun 25, 2013)

> On the old outlets, check to see if the little strap is removed to seperate the top and bottom plug, the strap is between the two screws on each side.



Unfortunately I have thrown away the old outlets a while ago... 



> Looks like you have 3 breakers controlling 5 outlets.


Correct, if you assume that *BOTH D & E are fed from another outlet in the kitchen.*



> The power from the breaker goes first to the GFCI


Are you saying this is what I have or what I should have?  Because my testing has indicated otherwise, no power to D & E whatsoever.  I have once again double checked, and ALL breakers ON in the main panel, I still have no power to D & E so somehow they must be fed from another location??



> You can test this easily by locating a likely switch and flipping it to see if you get power "on" or "off."


Already done that.  There is a braker in panel named "Kitchen lights" which controls both lights.  When the breakers for all three backsplash outlets are off (6/8, 18/20, 56/28) I still have power to the lights and light switches.  When I turn off the breaker for the lights, there is no more power to the switches and light boxes. 

Otherwise, if I turn the breakers ON for the outlets but keep the kitchen light breaker OFF, I have power to A B & C.

I am pretty sure the lights are independent from the outlets in this case.

Anyways, if the red wires were supposed to be switched, wouldn't they (or at least one of them) be alive when the lights are alive?  They arent right now..

The only memory I have from the original wiring is the way the outlet A was wired.  If I remember correctly, it was wired something like the picture attached... Since I didnt tamper with the wire ends and left them as they originally were, at least I know which wire was attached to a terminal screw and which wire was inserted in the back holes of the outlet..


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## condoowner (Jun 25, 2013)

bud16415 said:


> The OP has checked all the switches in the room and none of them are on any of these three circuits. I would find it rare to have counter outlets controlled by a switch or used as a split outlet. That&#8217;s mostly seen in living and bedrooms with end table lights and such. Red and black are normally hot wires. Not sure what the OP means by being fed with 3 wires though. If he can look in the boxes and see if the red is coming in with the power or maybe it&#8217;s another cable that&#8217;s going out to the remote outlets E & D.



Funny you posted just before I replied...

You are 100% right, I also find stranmge that kitchen outlet be controlled by switch?  Who would turn their coffee machine or toaster on by a switch?  

Yes I also would expect the switched behavior of the outlet like in my bedrooms that are exactly like that.  Bottom outlet is always on (for small electronics, TV's, clock, etc) while upper one is switched for table lamp, etc..)

What I meant by "being fed by 3 wires" is that as far as I know, power from the main is achieved via 2 wire (14/2 with black & white)?  Is it possible to have 3 wires (14/3) coming *FROM* the main panel? (red black & white)

Unless it was a 220V service, why would there be 3 wires from the main panel?


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## nealtw (Jun 25, 2013)

The picture you posted could have 240 volts to that plug, the red and the black are both live 120 volts each  In the old systems they split the plugs and ran red to top and black to bottom so all the tops in the kitchen were on one cercuit and the bottoms on another.
You want something like this.  I'm not sure what they mean by unprotected terminal unless they are saying to use regular plugs down stream.


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## condoowner (Jun 25, 2013)

> The picture you posted could have 240 volts to that plug



240V on a 14/3 wire???  isnt' that against code?  

Why would the outlets be 240V?  no kitchen appliances consume that much power?!?!




> In the old systems they split the plugs and ran red to top and black to bottom so all the tops in the kitchen were on one cercuit and the bottoms on another.



Then it would mean that all metal tabs on the *live* sides only were broken off so the top & bottom outlets were independent?


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## nealtw (Jun 25, 2013)

If you take the cover off the breaker panel you will see that the black goes to one breaker and red goes to the one beside it.  
The only reason they do that is to save wire they both are separete cercuits but use the same white and ground and if you do it wrong you could have 240 volt to one plug and yes that would not be code but using properly is not against code.


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## condoowner (Jun 25, 2013)

nealtw said:


> If you take the cover off the breaker panel you will see that the black goes to one breaker and red goes to the one beside it.
> The only reason they do that is to save wire they both are separete cercuits but use the same white and ground and if you do it wrong you could have 240 volt to one plug and yes that would not be code but using properly is not against code.



Ok so if I was to install the normal outlets with broken tabs would it be ok?


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## nealtw (Jun 25, 2013)

I'm not sure they still do that but you can wire this with 4 gfis outlet, each on it's own cercuit.
Not sure how you could split and use gfis.


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## condoowner (Jun 25, 2013)

I think you may be right Neal..  Now the GFCI I purchased are not good for this configuration... According to Cooper's instructions, the outlet has 4 terminal screws.  The top ones are for the LINE (power source, say the main panel), and the bottom screws are for the LOAD (to feed something else).

Naturally left screws are white for neutral while right screws (brass colored) are for hot wires.

Lets say I am wiring the RED circuit (assuming you are right and they wired outlets independently as 2 circuits, red & black), then I would connect the red wire to the LINE hot terminal screw and the white neutral to the LINE white terminal screw.  Simple enough, but what do I do with the black hot wire from the "black" circuit?  The only terminal screw left on the hot side of the outlet is on the LOAD which is to feed another location..


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## nealtw (Jun 25, 2013)

Have you opened the panel to see if I was right, that would be first.


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## bud16415 (Jun 25, 2013)

The reason you see no power at E & D is they are the load side and are not yet connected. I would assume the load was run using red to maybe show it different. If I understand correct there are 3 points where you are measuring power, a black wire at A, B, C 

I highly doubt they ran 220 into a switch box and broke the two into two legs there each 110. If that was the case you would have power to measure on the red wires also. Do you show power at the red wires when everything is not connected?


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## condoowner (Jun 25, 2013)

nealtw said:


> Have you opened the panel to see if I was right, that would be first.



100% right!

I even wired the standard outlets with broken tabs between red & black wires and all is fine!! I was also right with my purple lines on the first sketch. 

Location A feeds E, while C feeds D.

Now I just need to figure out how to install a GFCI outlet on a 2 circuit electric box....


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## condoowner (Jun 25, 2013)

Just to wrap up so far, I made a sketch of what Ive found to be so far..  Basically Circuits 1 & 2 are identical, one outlet feeding another..  Circuit 3 is similar but has only one outlet explaining why it has only one 14/3 and not two like the others..

All outlets are working fine, breakers not tripping, only the two green outlets now I need to install GFCI's on them..


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## nealtw (Jun 25, 2013)

Yes your sketch is right for a split system
For 4 gfis do this 
In box A join the two reds together with a wire nut, join the two whites togther and add  6" white pigtail and wire nut them.
The white pig tail and the black go to the gfi line screws, put a wire nut on the extra black
In box E wire nut the black wire and red and white go the line screws of the gfi


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## nealtw (Jun 25, 2013)

You may have spoiled the first one you hooked up, it blew the main because you had a 240 volt dead short thru the outlet.

Bud & Villa  This was standard in the 60s and 70s so you could plug a toaster and tea kettle at the same staion with out blowing a cercuit, that's likely why they went to 20 amp plugs when the gfis came in.


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## bud16415 (Jun 26, 2013)

Good call Neal and I have not ran across such a power feed setup before. I guess too many old houses for me. You learn something every day. 

Is this still common to wire this way? Personally I wouldn&#8217;t care for the 220 potential on adjacent screws on an outlet. 

In the OP&#8217;s last sketch he shows a standard outlet then feeding a GFI outlet. Is that correct? The first outlet doesn&#8217;t then have GF protection? He passes the 220V on to that GFI outlet is this a 220V GFI made just to do this?


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## nealtw (Jun 26, 2013)

NO,
 I missed that you can't split a gfi, oops

They still run 3 wire to service 2 cercuits all the time on long runs, usually nutted to a black in the back of the box somewhere, anytime you see a red , think 240 first until you prove it isn't.


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## bud16415 (Jun 26, 2013)

For sure I understand running a three conductor cable on a long run I have one going out to my garage even and then there is a sub panel. When the OP was saying his breaker number 6/8 the light should have come on as I&#8217;m hoping 6/8 is a 220 breaker and when you shut one off you get both. It would be very dangerous to test half of an outlet thinking power is off and then only having half the outlet dead. I just finished wiring my kitchen and I don&#8217;t see needing to do something like this. I have 3 circuits for receptacles and in each case the first one is a GFI and then the second is connected as a load. 

In the OP case he is doing it backwards it seems splitting the 220 at a non GFI and then running to a GFI.

He also shows in his last drawing that he is continuing the 220 run to each of the remote GFI outlets. I didn&#8217;t know of any that you can split that&#8217;s why I asked if that was something special (220 GFI split outlet) if not he needs to take the black wire away from the one run and the red the other and supply the GFI with just 110.


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## bud16415 (Jun 26, 2013)

Just thinking out loud here but if I was going to take this approach I think I would make the first box of each run a two gang junction box with a partition barrier. Something like this:  http://www.smarthome.com/25402/Two-Gang-Deep-Wall-Box-34-6-Cubic-Inches/p.aspx
I would use two GFI outlets in the one box and then run my load outlets off of this keeping everything GFI. 
You could then divide the two 110&#8217;s inside the box and keep it all separate for someone coming along in the future. 

I don&#8217;t know if that is to code or better than the OP&#8217;s setup that I gather is to code also. I&#8217;m sure the pros will sound in on what code says.


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## nealtw (Jun 26, 2013)

If you were wiring this today for 4 cercuits with 4 outlets, it would look the same but you would run a 3wire between the boxes, the red would connect to the black going to the second black.
If he followed my instructions in post 18  the red takes power to the second box and the black was capped off in the first and second box.


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## bud16415 (Jun 26, 2013)

So what you were recommending is every box get a GFI outlet and the only advantage of the 3 conductor circuit is to pass thru the other leg of the 110 saving wire on the runs between the panel and the kitchen. None of the outlets will then be split. 18 will power A 20,E 26,C 28,D and 6,B the red wire coming from 8 to circuit B needs a nut. Assuming 6/8 is also a 220 breaker. None of the outlets will be wired as loads.


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## nealtw (Jun 26, 2013)

He has four outlets and four circuits , there is nothing for any load side. The red wire just passes thru the first box and there is no need for the joining black.


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## condoowner (Jul 1, 2013)

Just as a followup , I wired the way Neal has suggested early on in this thread and everything is fine now..

Thanks guys for the help!!! Very appreciated as usual


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