# Shower Floor Leaking



## ctgriffi (Mar 2, 2015)

Hi, I'm a hands-on guy in my late 30s who loves to fix/build; I have some professional remodeling experience, as well as a few years in the building maintenance industry. I don't know much about tile showers, however, and am looking for some advice on the following:

I'm preparing to add another bedroom to the unfinished portion of a family member's basement, but there's a pressing issue that needs to be addressed first. (This custom home was finished about five years ago and, in general, seems to be well-built with good materials.) The master BR has a large, walk-in, tiled shower that has been slowly leaking into the basement below. As far as anyone can remember, it's been a nagging problem, probably started soon after they moved in. (Yes, they should've taken it up with the contractor immediately, but that's another story.)

The leak is not substantial&#8212;a small drip that comes down through the subfloor, where a cutout was made for vent piping and forms a small puddle on the basement floor (always happens right after morning showers). But, obviously, no leak is acceptable when you're preparing to frame up a room, directly underneath.

The shower drain piping is exposed in the basement ceiling and there are zero leaks from those PVC connections. Recently, as a test, I ran that shower for 20 minutes straight while watching the problem area below... didn't see a single drop of water appear anywhere. Then, last night, we did a leak test: sealed off the floor strainer with duct tape, filled the shower with a few inches of water, turned it off and waited... Sure enough, within minutes, a steady drip was coming into the basement below&#8212;through the same place it always does.

FYI, the shower floor is tiled with small (1") tiles, and the grout looks quite good on the floor itself, although the perimeter, where the shower floor meets the wall, _does not_.

So, what are my options? What's the best way to attack this problem? Can I chip out old grout and re-grout those areas? Do we need to demo the entire floor? Appreciate any/all advice or recommendations. Thanks very much!


----------



## Sparky617 (Mar 2, 2015)

Water goes through grout it is not waterproof so regrouting is not going to fix your leak.  I suspect the shower pan is bad from an installation mistake.  I had to replace mine a few years ago because the pan was installed improperly.  It is a complete tear out from the floor up to about a foot to replace the pan.

Mine is a membrane pan.  The leak happened at the curb by the door because the guy installing it didn't do the corners properly.

I wish I had a less invasive answer for you, but I suspect my sight unseen analysis is your problem.  Definitely fix it before doing work in the basement.


----------



## bud16415 (Mar 2, 2015)

I&#8217;m a little confused that it leaks every time after morning showers but you ran it for 20 minutes and didn&#8217;t get a leak. You then got a leak after you forced the water back to the edges. 

If you wanted to try another test you could hook up a hose or something and have someone spray into the edge as someone else watched and work your way around the base until you found the side that&#8217;s causing the problem. Or you could try fixing it by sealing that inside corner all the way around with a sealant suited for tile. 

The correct way would have been to turn it in to the builder right off the bat but for some reason that didn&#8217;t happen. The next correct way would be to have it all rebuilt as described in the above post.


----------



## CallMeVilla (Mar 2, 2015)

I like to go from the basic to the difficult.  Yes, you could rip out the pan and re-do it.  Let's try the following:

1.  Let the pan dry as much as feasible.
2.  Scrape the grout from the corners and re-seal with quality bath caulk.  While you are at it, do the vertical corners too.  Don't forget the curb.
3.  Re-seal all the grout lines in the floor TWICE.  Let the sealer setup between applications. 
4.  Allow all sealer to cure.  

Try the leak test again making sure to completely seal the drain flange.  If you get no leak, great.  If you get a leak, the problem is isolated at the flange.  That could be very bad news but lets not borrow trouble ...


----------



## ctgriffi (Mar 2, 2015)

Well, not great news, but not totally unexpected either. Thanks for the insight, Sparky. (and all others... didn't realize that a few more posts had just appeared!)

In terms of the "sight unseen analysis," I could post some photos of the shower, but I'm guessing that wouldn't be much help. Getting eyes on anything would mean cutting a good size hole in the bedroom wall behind the shower, and that still won't show what's happening underneath.


----------



## ctgriffi (Mar 2, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> Im a little confused that it leaks every time after morning showers but you ran it for 20 minutes and didnt get a leak. You then got a leak after you forced the water back to the edges.



That confused me too, Bud. I think it's because my 20min test had the shower head pointed mostly at the drain. The leak(s) seems to happen when water is concentrated around the edges of the shower floor, which might happen more when somebody's in there, directing spray all around. (It is a pretty good-sized shower.)


----------



## ctgriffi (Mar 2, 2015)

CallMeVilla said:


> I like to go from the basic to the difficult.  Yes, you could rip out the pan and re-do it.  Let's try the following:
> 
> 1.  Let the pan dry as much as feasible.
> 2.  Scrape the grout from the corners and re-seal with quality bath caulk.  While you are at it, do the vertical corners too.  Don't forget the curb.
> ...



This is pretty much what I was planning on doing, as a first attempt. I guess I wonder how long-lasting this fix might be, if it does seem to correct the problem.

Any recommendations on quality bath caulk and good grout/tile sealant?


----------



## bud16415 (Mar 2, 2015)

ctgriffi said:


> That confused me too, Bud. I think it's because my 20min test had the shower head pointed mostly at the drain. The leak(s) seems to happen when water is concentrated around the edges of the shower floor, which might happen more when somebody's in there, directing spray all around. (It is a pretty good-sized shower.)


   If by going around it and finding maybe just one area where the leak is getting thru you could then try using bath and tile caulk in that area only and if the problem goes away great if it comes back maybe you could remove tile in just that area and see if you can seal it.


----------



## CallMeVilla (Mar 2, 2015)

I had an upstairs shower leak thru the downstairs ceiling light.  Great fun.

I opened the wall behind the mixing valve and supply plumbing to get a better look.  TAH DAH!  The leak was coming thru the tiled soap holder on that wall.  I scraped all the grout around the soap holder and anyplace else on that wall.  Re-grouted.  Re-sealed the grout.

BOOM!  Problem solved plus the bonus of installing an access door to the copper plumbing.  You might consider this approach to see if the leak is around your shower fixture too.


----------



## ctgriffi (Mar 2, 2015)

CallMeVilla said:


> I had an upstairs shower leak thru the downstairs ceiling light.  Great fun.
> 
> I opened the wall behind the mixing valve and supply plumbing to get a better look.  TAH DAH!  The leak was coming thru the tiled soap holder on that wall.  I scraped all the grout around the soap holder and anyplace else on that wall.  Re-grouted.  Re-sealed the grout.
> 
> BOOM!  Problem solved plus the bonus of installing an access door to the copper plumbing.  You might consider this approach to see if the leak is around your shower fixture too.



With the shower off and a few inches of static water sitting there, it was steadily leaking, so I think it's probably the floor, although I agree it seems prudent to get a look at the back of the fixture/supply area.


----------



## havasu (Mar 2, 2015)

I'd first check to see how the drain is connected to the pan. Might save yourself big bucks.


----------



## ctgriffi (Mar 2, 2015)

havasu said:


> I'd first check to see how the drain is connected to the pan. Might save yourself big bucks.


I can actually see the drain connection pretty clearly from below, and everything looks great (dry) there. Maybe I'll take another at that soon, though; might be helpful to see what kind of pan was used.


----------



## kok328 (Mar 2, 2015)

On another note make sure the basement has legal egress otherwise you maybe wasting time & material by building a bedroom there.


----------



## nealtw (Mar 2, 2015)

Is there a bench in the shower. Cut into the wall from other rooms to inspect from outside where you will find drywall behind the tile and all kinkds of other no, no's


----------



## CallMeVilla (Mar 2, 2015)

ctgriffi said:


> With the shower off and a few inches of static water sitting there, it was steadily leaking, so I think it's probably the floor, although I agree it seems prudent to get a look at the back of the fixture/supply area.



If you never splashed on the walls, this is a good test ...  but the leakage will accumulate in the floor if it comes from the walls and you might not be able to ID the source.  Oh, and you are SURE the drain flange was sealed when you did the test ... ?


----------



## Sparky617 (Mar 3, 2015)

Water will go through grout, if it didn't there wouldn't be a need for cement backer boards and shower pans of all varieties.  Water splashing on the walls is expected and should not cause a leak.  If the area around the the drain is dry you can make a pretty good assumption that the drain is working properly and is sealed to the pan.  There are weeping holes in the drain below the tile surface to drain any water that comes through the grout and into the pan.   99% of the water goes down the visible drain without going through the grout, but the grout does get wet and some of this water will work its way down instead of evaporating up.  Also, any voids in the grout or caulk will allow the water to pass through to the pan more easily.

If your test of blocking the drain and filling the base of the shower with water produced a leak after several hours I'm sticking with my original diagnosis that your pan is leaking and likely from a mistake during installation.   I was unsuccessful in getting my builder to fix mine.  I finally had to call in a tile guy and have it done at my expense.  My tile guy showed me how the installer screwed up the corners around the curb at the door.


----------



## ctgriffi (Mar 3, 2015)

Sparky617 said:


> If your test of blocking the drain and filling the base of the shower with water produced a leak after several hours I'm sticking with my original diagnosis that your pan is leaking and likely from a mistake during installation.   I was unsuccessful in getting my builder to fix mine.  I finally had to call in a tile guy and have it done at my expense.  My tile guy showed me how the installer screwed up the corners around the curb at the door.



Just to clarify, after a normal shower, there is usually a small puddle that appears down below&#8212;sometimes it's only a few drops. But, when I sealed the drain, added a couple inches of water, shut it off and waited, _within a few minutes_ there was a steady trickle of water coming down in the exact same area.

And, actually, as I mentioned once before, I ran the shower for 20 minutes recently (as a test, no one in there) and didn't see a single drop come down. Could the weight of large human beings be a contributing factor to this pan issue?


----------



## slownsteady (Mar 3, 2015)

ctgriffi said:


> Just to clarify, after a normal shower, there is usually a small puddle that appears down belowsometimes it's only a few drops. But, when I sealed the drain, added a couple inches of water, shut it off and waited, _within a few minutes_ there was a steady trickle of water coming down in the exact same area.
> 
> And, actually, as I mentioned once before, I ran the shower for 20 minutes recently (as a test, no one in there) and didn't see a single drop come down. Could the weight of large human beings be a contributing factor to this pan issue?


Sure, why not? A 150 pound weight may cause deflection in the shower floor if it is not properly supported. But that may show up as loose or chipped grout from the flexing.


----------



## Sparky617 (Mar 3, 2015)

ctgriffi said:


> Just to clarify, after a normal shower, there is usually a small puddle that appears down belowsometimes it's only a few drops. But, when I sealed the drain, added a couple inches of water, shut it off and waited, _within a few minutes_ there was a steady trickle of water coming down in the exact same area.
> 
> And, actually, as I mentioned once before, I ran the shower for 20 minutes recently (as a test, no one in there) and didn't see a single drop come down. Could the weight of large human beings be a contributing factor to this pan issue?



It could also be where the water was hitting the walls when you ran it without anyone in the shower.  Stopping the drain up and filling it up with several inches tells me your leak is in the pan, likely in one of the corners.  Given the age my bet is you have a membrane pan unless your local codes requires a lead or copper pan.  A membrane pan is made from a heavy synthetic rubber membrane.  It is folded into place without cuts in the corner to remove the excess material.  If it were cut in the corners it requires glued corner pieces to seal the cuts.  Here is a good video on installing membrane pans.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRwu1SE_***


----------



## ctgriffi (Mar 3, 2015)

Sparky617 said:


> Here is a good video on installing membrane pans.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRwu1SE_***


 Tried to watch that vid, but couldn't get the link to work. Could you repost, plz?


----------



## Sparky617 (Mar 3, 2015)

Try this:  https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=membrane+shower+pan+installation  If that doesn't work just go to youtube.com and type in membrane shower pan installation in the search box.


----------



## ctgriffi (Mar 3, 2015)

Might've been better to do this on the front-end, but, anyway... here are some photos. Usually makes things clearer (and much more interesting).

Btw, the drain line goes straight back from the drain flange towards the shower entrance, passes under the cabinet that's just visible on the right-hand side of the first photo. The vent line runs up through the enclosed space between the angled shower wall and the cabinet; currently, there's no access to any of that.


----------



## nealtw (Mar 3, 2015)

I repaired a simular shower a couple years ago. Tub surround was built out of wood and flat on top so the water sat there and was able to work it's way down into the wood work and around into the far wall. I was able to repair and cover that area with concrete board and seal it with redgard and found a tile that almost matched and replaced the same glass back in place.
I would be really suspect of the far edge of the shelf where it meets the wall, Any cracks there will feed water outside the pan.


----------



## Sparky617 (Mar 4, 2015)

It looks like the leak is near the vent pipe.  What is the small white/clear plastic pipe for in the last picture?  I once had a leak under my shower that only appeared during a very hard rain, Hurricane Fran was one time it showed up.  It turned out to be a bad gasket around the top of the vent pipe on the roof.  It had cracked in time due to sun exposure and age.  During a very heavy rain there would be enough water running down the outside of the pipe and getting past the cracked gasket to make it inside the house and make a wet spot on my family room ceiling below where the vent pipe did a 90 degree turn from vertical to horizontal.  Since yours only shows up after a shower I doubt that is the problem.

If the leak is near the seat I really like Nealtw's last post.


----------



## ctgriffi (Mar 4, 2015)

Yes, the water appears around the vent pipe cutout, trickles down there, but it's not coming _from_ the vent-T. The small tubing you noticed is one of the PEX supply lines, and, yes, it looks like water collects around there, too, although I've never seen it dripping down from that area.

The bench seat is against the wall, which is at the opposite end, about six feet away from where the leak seems to appear.


----------



## nealtw (Mar 4, 2015)

I would still be opening the backside of the wall behind the soap dish and or the mixing valve just for a look see.


----------



## bud16415 (Mar 4, 2015)

Let&#8217;s use some logic. It leaks a little when used as a shower. It doesn&#8217;t leak when the spray is sent just to the center drain. It leaks a lot when the drain is plugged and filled with enough water to back up against the sides. That all tells us it&#8217;s in the floor or the first inch of the walls. The water has to find a path out and it&#8217;s not coming out the hole for the drain and there is a spilt in the subfloor past that it could also come thru. That rules out the back of the shower. It is coming out the vent stack hole and that strongly suggests the front of the shower. It&#8217;s also pooling around the PEX in the same area. 

The common place for a membrane to leak is where it is cut and sealed like the drain hole but in this case clearly not the drain hole. The next place it would be cut is around the edges and chances are it was folded up so that leads to one of the three front corners or two front walls. 

I would suggest taping the drain shut again and slowly add water. The slope is running to the drain so as you add water the circle of water will get larger. At the point when you see the first leaking where the circle touches the edge should be the problem spots. If I had to guess I would say the sharp point corner at the door. Once you have a clue then you may be able to remove just that area and make a repair.

edit:   You could get a can of plumbers putty and make a dam around each area in question also and fill the dammed up area with water to try and find the bad corner.


----------



## mako1 (Mar 4, 2015)

CallMeVilla said:


> I like to go from the basic to the difficult. Yes, you could rip out the pan and re-do it. Let's try the following:
> 
> 1. Let the pan dry as much as feasible.
> 2. Scrape the grout from the corners and re-seal with quality bath caulk. While you are at it, do the vertical corners too. Don't forget the curb.
> ...


 IHO That adice is not to good.Grout sealer is not going to fix a poorly installed shower pan .Do you want to fix the problem for a few days or fix it for good?Do it right and take it out and get someone that knows what they are doing to install it properly.Sealing the grout is putting lipstick on a pig.


----------



## nealtw (Mar 4, 2015)

mako1 said:


> IHO That adice is not to good.Grout sealer is not going to fix a poorly installed shower pan .Do you want to fix the problem for a few days or fix it for good?Do it right and take it out and get someone that knows what they are doing to install it properly.Sealing the grout is putting lipstick on a pig.



I think I agree, as this might be a problem with the pan, the next question is; can it be fixed wiuthout redoing the whole unit.


----------



## bud16415 (Mar 4, 2015)

Of course ripping it out and putting in a whole new pan and floor or a whole new shower would fix the problem. I don&#8217;t think anyone would doubt that advice. If this problem happened right off the get go with a new home that&#8217;s exactly what should have happened and at no expense to the homeowner. That&#8217;s what I would have insisted of if it was mine. That did happen it sounds like and the owner didn&#8217;t act on the problem for a number of years for whatever reason and now wanting a new bath below the drip is a bigger issue and most likely the reasonable statute of limitations on the original builder are way past reasonable. 

The question is really does it all have to come out is there a way to find the problem and surgically repair it. The answer may be there isn&#8217;t but there is nothing lost in trying as the whole thing will have to go the other way. I agree sealing the tile is a band aid at best. If it is the seal where the wall meets the floor where the water has an easy path inside and it is an area where water is just overspray and not the main flow then maybe some caulk in the corner will make the problem all but go away. Maybe a localized repair could be made to last is the big question.


----------



## nealtw (Mar 4, 2015)

Bud: Water can do funny things and travel great distance. Adventech type flooring is verygood at holding water evan at the t&g joints. Water that has worked it's way outside the pan from higher on the sidewall might just sit until you add weight that changes the level of the floor a little.
That is why I would do as much checking in places where patching is easier before starting to rip out a shower. In my oldfashion methed I would be cutting drywall anywhere I could to have a look at the outside but today alot can be seen with a snake camera. I would want to see the inside of the tub suround the bench and the wall where the valves are as well as where the soap dish is.


----------



## ctgriffi (Mar 4, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> Lets use some logic. It leaks a little when used as a shower. It doesnt leak when the spray is sent just to the center drain. It leaks a lot when the drain is plugged and filled with enough water to back up...



I like the way your mind works, and I'm seeing it the same way. I think my recommendation is going to be that they bring in a pro to redo the floor/pan. Not cheap or easy, but this is a nice home; needs to be done right.


----------



## nealtw (Mar 4, 2015)

In this video the deal with how to seal the shelf are and the problems and then have another look at this shower and how they did it.
Even if this problem is the pan there will soon be more problems with the bench. It would be hard to believe that soime one that made mistakes with the pan then went over and above to do a good job everywhere else.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeEt-37p-hE[/ame]


----------



## bud16415 (Mar 4, 2015)

Water can do a lot of things but I haven&#8217;t seen it run up hill from the floor filled with water to an opening at a bench seat and then back down behind the tile and across the sub floor to the point in the basement its coming in. That was the point to my logic to rule out the walls etc. when you take a bucket of water and pour it on the floor it has to be leaking near the floor. 
 If we assume the contractor did shoddy work and we should bring into question all the work he did as future problems. So if there are a few more bathrooms in the house with tile they could be bad also and should be repaired. 
I do agree water could cross the T&G joints in the sub floor so they could go down gouge out a little hole in the seam or drill holes just thru the sub floor all over the place to see if water would come out them I guess. 

If you do get a pro to do a new floor I hope you get some feedback of what they find.


----------



## nealtw (Mar 4, 2015)

No my point was not that water runs uphill but even with a problem with a pan, there will be a problem with the bench and the tub suround.
Once in a while we do see where the bench and the tub suround is built and the pan is extended up to include the bench or tub suround but that is seldem.
 The bench and tub suround are built out of wet lumber that is available on  a construction site often just days before the tiler comes in. Now you have shrinkage of the lumber the flexing of the surround as the tub is filled and used and the normal flexing of the house which is really hard on any 90* corners that are tiled especially the outside corners like the edge of the bench.

The attitude seem to be, will it out last the warrentee and in most cases the answer is yes.
From the outside I would want to know what was dry and what was wet and then I would do the demo myself or have a handyman do it. and when any or all troubled areas are exposed bring in the pros for suggestions and quotes.


----------

