# Water inside breaker box?



## louder (Oct 18, 2021)

I recently noticed some rust in the bottom of my breaker box in the basement. I cleaned it up, and figured it was due to age or dampness. 
The other day I noticed some rust tracking on the main breaker. I removed the front panel, wiped everything down, but couldn't tell where its coming from. 
Yesterday it poured for about an hour, so i went down there to see if I could spot any leaks, but didn't see a thing. This morning, long after the rain stopped, the box is wet, and its dripping steady from the inside of the gray service cable. 
I pulled the meter, removed the wet breakers, blow dried everything real well and gave a good look at where the water is coming from. 
The cable going in the top is sealed, both with a gland nut and a ton of putty. The bottom of the meter box is also wet and rusty. 
There's no seal around the meter itself and nothing around the side of the cover. It sits out in the open on the wall. I see no way for water that gets in around the meter to get out the bottom other than filtering through the wire casing or when it fills up and runs out around the meter. When I pulled the cover, there was a half cup or so of water sitting in the bottom of the box. 
I asked if I could put some foam around the meter and they said no, There's a good 3" of casing intact on the wire at the bottom, for it to run into the cable it would need to be at least that high in the box before submerging the open end of the cable. My guess is rain is getting in around the meter and following the cable into my box inside. 
Any ideas?


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## Sparky617 (Oct 18, 2021)

Does your entrance cable come in from overhead lines?  Typically, cables are run with a "drip loop" on them to cause the water that follows the line to drop off before following it into the box.   Can you provide some pictures of your set up?  Pictures can really help answer some of our questions and solutions.


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## Sparky617 (Oct 18, 2021)

Here's an explanation of Drip Loop









						The Importance of a Drip Loop on Your Home - Waypoint Inspection
					

Drip loops work with gravity to drip water off service entrance lines before entering the service entrance conduit and home.




					waypointinspection.com


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## Eddie_T (Oct 18, 2021)

I think I would add a drain to the box until the utility gets interested in addressing the problem.


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## louder (Oct 18, 2021)

There are three wires that come across from the pole across the street, to a gray service cable that runs down the side of my house to the meter box, then another length of the same cable runs from the bottom of the meter box into the house a few feet below and down into my breaker panel in the basement. There's a drop loop up top but that wire doesn't connect directly to the lower wire, it terminates at the meter lugs. Water gets in both around the meter, which has no gasket and around the edges of the door which also have no gasket. The house was built in the 70's and the set up is likely original. 
I can see that the water is running out of the cable itself, not around it. Its getting into the insulation and following the wires into the main panel. When it rains, the box fills up to the bottom of the meter, it collects more water than it can drain out around the front panel and cable clamp at the bottom.

Common sense would say there should be a seal or gasket around the meter panel itself where it meets the glass meter but there's nothing, just an 1/8" or so gap. 
Two things will stop it, first is seal off the ring around the meter, and second, seal up the cable end inside the meter so water can't get in. They won't allow me to do either. 

They tell me the meter and box are mine, they own up the lines from the pole and the security tag on the meter. 

When I called the electric company they told me I need a new meter box, and that it was my responsibility not theirs. They said I have to have an electrician do the work after calling for a disconnect. I asked how long after its changed will they come back and reconnect it, I was told 14 to 28 days after its inspected. I was told once its done, the inspector has 5 business days to do the inspection.
I called a few electricians and was told $5k to change the meter box, not counting materials and permit fees and to figure on $6500 to $8k to replace the wires in and out of the box as well. They
quoted me $235 for the meter  box, and $300 to $390 for the wire, plug two new ground rods and ground wire for $110. plus $300 - $350 for other hardware, like the cap on the cable, the fittings on the box, and AntiOx grease for the wires.
When I priced the parts I got about $200 total in parts and that was buying them at the local big box store. I called to see if I could buy the parts myself and was told they only install what they sell. 
After a few estimates like that I decided the only way to do it and not get ripped off is to just do it myself.


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## Sparky617 (Oct 18, 2021)

You may not be able to do the work yourself.  In my town I can do electrical work with a permit and get inspections.  In nearby Durham I can't without taking a test, not sure what the test entails though.   Messing with a meter and the mast for the power company to run a new drop isn't quite like running a new outlet.   Nor is running the entrance cable between your meter base and your panel.  

I trained to be an electrician and feel pretty comfortable in a panel box, and just in the past month I've run two new circuits a 50 amp car charger and 100 amp basement sub panel on my house.  Both passed inspection.  I had to work around hot bus bars on my main panel under my meter, I took precautions to make sure nothing was going to come in contact with them as I was bringing in the service cables.  I wouldn't recommend this to anyone that isn't knowledgeable and very handy.  The chance of getting seriously hurt is pretty high.


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## kok328 (Oct 18, 2021)

louder said:


> I recently noticed some rust in the bottom of my breaker box in the basement. I cleaned it up, and figured it was due to age or dampness.
> The other day I noticed some rust tracking on the main breaker. I removed the front panel, wiped everything down, but couldn't tell where its coming from.
> Yesterday it poured for about an hour, so i went down there to see if I could spot any leaks, but didn't see a thing. This morning, long after the rain stopped, the box is wet, and its dripping steady from the inside of the gray service cable.
> I pulled the meter, removed the wet breakers, blow dried everything real well and gave a good look at where the water is coming from.
> ...


I would install the missing gasket to prevent water entering the cable and drill a drain hole in the bottom of the meter box.


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## Eddie_T (Oct 18, 2021)

You can do it yourself if you're careful. It's only 3 connections to break/make. When my electrician installed a new panel hot he wore gloves, removed the three wires one at a time, marked and taped them. After that everything was safe until time to reconnect. His most critical action was to route the wires one at a time, remove tape and carefully insert into panel main breaker and neutral lugs. After that he just left the main breaker open as he wired and installed individual breakers.


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## louder (Oct 18, 2021)

They told me the cable, meter and box are all mine, they only own the wires overhead, until they go bad, then its my responsibility.  
My problem is that a new meter box isn't any more sealed than the one I've got. 
There is no gasket ring around the meter hole, just metal. I wanted to add a ring of foam rubber around he opening when the guy from the electric company had it off but he said I can't do that. I suggested a bead of caulk but no way. He said the box had to go. 
(I have a good used meter pan from a neighbor who replaced his.) I trial fit the old meter into a new panel and its got about the same amount of clearance between the meter and the front panel.
Maybe the insulating plastic behind the meter shrunk? Or are the newer meters shallower?

I have no problem replacing the meter box, and/or the cable but not if its not going to be any better than what I've got.


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## Eddie_T (Oct 18, 2021)

Can you put a rain deflector above it but not touching the box? Mine is well under the eave of the roof.

I'm guessing that NJ is a union state (did I mention that I have a severe distaste for unions?)


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## ekrig (Oct 19, 2021)

Well, if the meter box is yours, one would think that you can (should?) take care of it in whatever way necessary to keep the service going without problems, such as sealing for the rain.

Anyway, adding a cover to the box could a solution, something like a flap that someone can lift to get complete access to the meter when necessary. The only concern I can think of with doing anything around the meter is whether that might increase the risk of fire, so keep that in mind.


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## Eddie_T (Oct 19, 2021)

You might join Mike Holt's forum and ask the question there.

General Electrical Forum


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## BuzzLOL (Oct 19, 2021)

I think I would simply put a strip of electrical tape across the top gap in the box... refresh it when needed... it would stop the water and can be easily/quickly pulled off if anyone needs to get into the meter box... maybe the 2" wide tape if the usual 3/4" wide tape is too narrow...


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## louder (Oct 19, 2021)

Eddie_T said:


> Can you put a rain deflector above it but not touching the box? Mine is well under the eave of the roof.
> 
> I'm guessing that NJ is a union state (did I mention that I have a severe distaste for unions?)


I had put a rubber flap just above the box and the meter reader reported it, a service guy came out, and opened the box, he told me that the meter reader reported it as 'tampering'. He cut the zip tie off the flap and told me "nothing can be attached to the service wire or meter' I suggested putting a small dog box around the meter and was told that nothing can be above the meter or shrouding it.
He made it clear that the meter must be mounted on the end wall, with no overhang above.
Not a fan of unions either.
The gap around the meter is large enough to wiggle the meter around a bit, maybe 3/16" or so. 
I've tried to find a new meter box but they've been unavailable for months for some reason. I picked up a used one at the flea market for a couple bucks, its a bit larger than what I have now, and the meter in that panel is 'loose' too. There doesn't appear to have ever been any sort of seal around the meter on that box either. The
I even tried just putting a loop of string with a tag end to help trail water down off the glass meter before it ran into the gap below the meter. That worked about 80% but they pulled that off too. HD had a few underground and all in one type boxes there and none of them had a seal around the meter either. Just bare steel around the hole for the meter. 

I was told that any box or awning over the meter would be against code because the service cable would then be considered enclosed which cannot be. The service cable or conduit apparently has to be completely exposed on the side of the house. They want clear view of the wire going from the overhead drop from the pole to the meter. Any shroud, cover, or box is considered an obstruction. 
I think the rules are likely to prevent someone from hiding a meter by pass or any tap into the line above the meter.


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## ekrig (Oct 19, 2021)

Ah... the joys of living in NJ...
Seriously, sorry to hear about that. Some folks can be pretty a??? about stuff like that, as if somehow someone is touching their food.

Anyway, maybe just use the tape approach...


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## Eddie_T (Oct 19, 2021)

I guess their problem is mostly an "I'm in charge" complex. Here's how they do it in Atlantic City when there's an overhang but it's done when the house is built and uses conduit from the weatherhead.



With a smart meter they probably would seldom visit your property unless they are just harassing you.


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## Blue Jay (Oct 19, 2021)

So just drill a couple of holes in the bottom to let it drain and forget about it.


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## louder (Oct 19, 2021)

All of the meters here are on the left side end wall nearest the street. No overhang above. 
A number of years ago I tried to have it moved to the other end of the house, I wanted to put the breaker panel in the closet but they would not let me move the location of the meter or service wires. 

If I ran a steel conduit above the meter,  in order to get to the required 15 to 17ft height, I'd have 10ft of unsupported conduit above the roof line.  Not to mention the fact that every time the wires get hit by a tall truck or the city spreading salt with the dump body up, it would likely rip the corner off my house rather than just breaking the ceramic insulator on the wall.
I inquired about running pvc conduit up to the roofline and across to the triplex from the street higher on the roofline but they told me I couldn't have any horizontal conduit runs in the main service before the meter. So leaves standard SE cable the only option on a single story home. 

There's enough of a gap at the bottom of the cover and around the sides to let water out, but I think the water is dripping off the bottom of the meter on the inside right down into the open end of the cable at the bottom of the box.

When the guy was here from the electric company to 'check' the meter after the meter reader reported the string hanging from the meter, he opened the meter, tested the meter, checked the wires and knocked on the door to let me know that "Attaching anything to the meter or adjacent wiring is illegal".


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## Eddie_T (Oct 19, 2021)

Why do they still have meter readers, smart meters transmit the data? Did the union preserve meter readers positions?


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## louder (Oct 19, 2021)

No idea. They actually went back to an older style meter about 8 years ago, they had meters with a digital readout in the middle, then after the big Derecho we had in 2012 they switched back to the older analog type meters.  Most of the wires were ripped off the poles and a good many poles were downed. First they fixed the poles, then put up new single run triples wires vs. the old three bare wire runs we had before, and finally, about 6 months later they replaced all the meters. We got  letter with a monthly bill saying to expect a momentary power outage as the meter was 'upgraded'. 
A worker for the power company told me that the reason was that the old meters were without power for so long, (over 2 weeks here), that they lost stored data. 
We were without power for 17 days here that one month, and my electric bill that month was $412. When i called to find out why it didn't reflect the days of lost service, I was told that they were 'authorized' to charge and estimated amount for the days without service based on the prior years usage. They said charging for the period when no power was used was a way to offset all the costs of the storm. 

I found out too that if I turn off my main breaker, lock up the house and go to FL for a few months, my electric bill gets estimated regardless of the true reading even though there was no usage. I was told it was to offset the many costs and losses the electric company has incurred over the years. I was out of state for work for 6 months three years ago, knowing I was going to be gone for that long, I killed the power, shut off the water main, drained down the plumbing, and prepped the house for a long vacation. 
My electric bills for that period, were almost identical to prior years for that month. Even though my security system picked up the meter being read every month.  The meter is read by the electric company themselves here, the water meter is read/scanned by a private company monthly. My water bill also stayed the same, never dropping to the minimum even though my water main was turned off at the street. (I have my own water main wrench). 

There's enough room to put a piece of rubber around the edge of the meter opening, it would fill the gap both in depth and diameter to the meter. (Think door edge molding on a car).

I know some houses have smart meters but none near me here. 
How does a Smart meter report back?
With so many people dropping their landlines, I can't see it working off a phone line?

Our water meters got remote sensors about 15 years ago, there's a wire from a sensor they screwed to the top of the meter that goes to a 3" square black box on the outside of the house. All the meter reader needs to do is point a gun at it and it picks up the reading. But he still has to walk the neighborhood. The guy told me that he can read up to 20ft away, sometimes, but it works best within around 8ft or so. 
The electric meter still has the five dials on the face. The digital meters they replaced had both, an LCD readout, and three dials across the top.


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## Eddie_T (Oct 19, 2021)

I think there's some illegal activity going on. I would contact the NJ Board of Public Utilities for clarification on billing practices.


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## Sparky617 (Oct 20, 2021)

Smart meters can work a number of different way, and telephone lines isn't one of them.  They have ones that work over the cellular network and ones that actually send the data over the power lines.  Or they can send a vehicle around their service area to collect the data as they drive by.  Clearly it is much faster to have a car drive around my neighborhood than to have a meter reader walk all 260 homes in my subdivision.  The cell collection system has challenges because of dead spots in cell coverage.  If you're making a call and you don't get a signal you can move out of the shadow of a building, but if your meter is in a dead spot, it can't exactly move to a better location.   

Our electric service has at least two components, same with gas service.  The first is a set charge for providing the service, the second is usage based.  The set charge covers the transmission lines, and other sunk costs to provide the service.  Usage covers the cost of producing the electricity.  

We've had smart meters for years now.  The only dumb meter I have now is my gas meter.  I can log on to a website and see my water usage on a near real time basis.  Our water meters use a radio collection system the town utility department installed at many points around town.  They installed a new meter with a radio antenna to support the system.


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## ekrig (Oct 20, 2021)

Everything that has been said in this thread is reasonable but I've found that unfortunately many things in NJ defy logic and reasonableness. It is a beautiful state but, generally speaking, the administrative ineptitude/incompetency/corruption is mind boggling. Rant over!

I'm with @Eddie_T that you should contest that bill because that is tantamount to robbery in my book. They don't get to make the rules as they go.

Coming back to the original topic: Since it seems that they don't let you address the issue, does this issue put your house/property at risk of damage because of the water or increased hazard of fire (water+electricity is risky...)? If so, I'd document the issue and report it to the electric company, your insurance company and town. Since they don't let you fix, I would think that either they need to fix or are liable for damages if they happen. I'd contact a lawyer to double check that too.


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## Sparky617 (Oct 20, 2021)

ekrig said:


> Everything that has been said in this thread is reasonable but I've found that unfortunately many things in NJ defy logic and reasonableness. It is a beautiful state but, generally speaking, the administrative ineptitude/incompetency/corruption is mind boggling. Rant over!
> 
> I'm with @Eddie_T that you should contest that bill because that is tantamount to robbery in my book. They don't get to make the rules as they go.
> 
> Coming back to the original topic: Since it seems that they don't let you address the issue, does this issue put your house/property at risk of damage because of the water or increased hazard of fire (water+electricity is risky...)? If so, I'd document the issue and report it to the electric company, your insurance company and town. Since they don't let you fix, I would think that either they need to fix or are liable for damages if they happen. I'd contact a lawyer to double check that too.



It isn't that it can't be fixed, permitting may *REQUIRE* the work be done by a licensed electrician.  There may be steps he can take short of replacing the service entrance but without pictures we can only guess.


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## bud16415 (Oct 20, 2021)

It sounds to me that I agree with @ekrig. There is ether more to the story than the OP is relating or the electric company is being a PITA.



Find a lawyer and have him write a certified letter putting the utility on notice of the assumed risk put on the homeowner by their negligence in preventing them from fixing the problem and their inability to help the homeowner in fixing the problem. The utility has placed the homeowner in a catch 22 situation that may lead to fire, electrocution and or death. The letter is to be kept as a record when the eventual happens blame will be placed where it belongs.



It is totally ridicules that outside water is flowing thru the meter and following the entrance cable into the house and causing damage to the main panel. Water and electricity do not mix well and always ends in problems.



This is not rocket science and you are being pushed around by the low level folks at the utility company and a letter documenting what you have done needs to be seen at a higher level in the company. You pay your bills and you deserve better service.

Don’t dick around with these guys you need to go over their rank.


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## Eddie_T (Oct 20, 2021)

This sounds goofy but I would make a small drip hole in the cable sheath at its lowest point in the basement.


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## bud16415 (Oct 20, 2021)

Eddie_T said:


> This sounds goofy but I would make a small drip hole in the cable sheath at its lowest point in the basement.


I actually thought about that also. The water is not going to have much affect on the coated conductors. I think he also has a ground in there by the looks of it that it might not be good for. But then who wants a bucket sitting under your main panel. It is something that shouldn't be that big of a deal. Where I live the first guy that came out would have sealed it up.


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## Eddie_T (Oct 20, 2021)

@bud16415  The PoCo workers in my area are nice to work with as well. They were troubleshooting my underground feed (approx 1000 ft) with a "thumper". I had a generator running in my drive back feeding a 240v receptacle just inside my garage door. I asked them if I should turn it off so they could hear better, they said they were good. They never once questioned how I was connected. I am sure they wore gloves and checked transformer for voltage before disconnecting primary leads and attaching the thumper.

I confess that I resent (and resist) authority as so many that have some authority tend both to flaunt and overreach  it. It caused me minor grief in the army but I was smarter than the career boys and most often outfoxed them.


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## Eddie_T (Oct 20, 2021)

It's not only the PoCo, the electricians in NJ sound a bit high and mighty too. In the south where they are not unionized I can find a good old boy that would do it for a couple of hundred (or less) if I furnish the parts. I hired an electrician to replace my panel since I needed it done in one day. The cost parts and labor was $600 and he wired it hot so I didn't chance a reinspection.


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## bud16415 (Oct 20, 2021)

Eddie_T said:


> It's not only the PoCo, the electricians in NJ sound a bit high and mighty too. In the south where they are not unionized I can find a good old boy that would do it for a couple of hundred (or less) if I furnish the parts. I hired an electrician to replace my panel since I needed it done in one day. The cost parts and labor was $600 and he wired it hot so I didn't chance a reinspection.


I have done some work hot myself in my younger days, but I would never advise anyone on here to do such. On giving forum advice it is seldom the poster gives us enough clues to even advise working behind the panel.



You are correct in some places the power company guys will tell you go ahead and pull the meter and get going with what you need to do and that they will stop buy later and check things out and tag it. Other areas doing that will end you up in court. NJ seems to be one of those places.



I had a neighbor one day I drove past his place and I see auto jumper cables connected to wires on top of his mast. I pulled in and said Rick what the heck are you doing? He said oh my power got shut off and they (power company) told me to do this to get going. I said no way would they tell you that I didn’t just fall off a turnip truck. I told him do what you think you have to but you will get caught. Couple days later I see the cops loading him in the car in cuffs. He believed I turned him in. Maybe I should have but I didn’t. Ended up costing him big time.

I really feel the OP has reached his DIY limit and needs to play hardball to get someone’s attention.


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## louder (Oct 20, 2021)

As far as the power company goes, I've never gotten past talking to whom ever answered the phone, or the guy who comes out to replace the meter tag. 
They are adamant that home owners may not touch any part of the service before the main breaker or beyond the meter. Any disconnect, meter removal or reconnect must be done only after inspector approval, any change to the main breaker panel requires an inspector's certification tag. 
The one on the current panel is dated 1977. Not much in the house has been touched since then.

The meter box is the type that isolates the neutral from the box, so any water that may get into the upper cable up top, will follow the casing down through the box into the lower cable. The meter is 4ft below the roof line on an end wall, the service cable enters the top of the meter box, the cable from the meter leaves the bottom of the box and goes down about 3ft and into thebasement through the wall directly to the breaker panel straight below the meter. I think the majority of the water is from what gets in around the round meter glass itself. 

The law says a homeowner has the right to repair their own home, when it comes to electric, it says the homeowner is responsible for everything up to the wires leading to the pole, if there's a pole on the property, the owner is responsible for the wires to the last pole on their land. The catch is that only the power company can made connections and install the meter, and they will only do so after it has passed inspection by the local electrical inspector. The problem is getting the inspector there when needed and getting the company out to reconnect in a timely manner. I was told 14-28 days for a disconnect, and the same for an inspection. The cost of a reconnect is $360, and the cost of each inspection is $87.50. 
At this point I don't need a new service or a disconnect, I just need to stop the water from geting into the meter box or getting down the bottom cable. I'm sure a simple gasket around the meter would do the trick, but they wont allow it. My guess is that somewhere along the line the meters got smaller, and that created the problem. It obviously hasn't been leaking water for 43 years, so it has to be something that changed recently.


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## bud16415 (Oct 20, 2021)

Again and my last comment.



Break it down it is like a dog chasing his tail.



You have a problem and they are telling you that you own the problem and then telling you that you cannot fix the problem and your attempts at doing that or suggesting what to do have met with being told you can’t.



You are locked in a cycle and you and your family are the ones taking the risk. I would make it perfectly clear to not the lineman or the person answering calls but to the power companies lawyers that they are being put on notice of their responsibility if something happens. Not because of what they do, but because they are preventing you from making your home safe. Trust me they don’t want a 25 million dollar law suit when you get electrocuted because they prevented you from stopping water coming into your home alongside their power.

This business that you can’t have a roof over your meter is totally absurd.


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## Eddie_T (Oct 20, 2021)

I can be an obstinate cuss when riled. I would add a shade sail to that end of my house. A sail that touched none of the electrical but shaded my lawn or deck chairs and accidentally diverted rain away from the meter. If they wanted it down take me to court my property. And maybe get a TV reporter on my side if they did


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## tmiskimen (Oct 21, 2021)

There should be a weep hole in the bottom of the meter socket to drain away any water that may get into the socket to prevent exactly the problem you are having. Is it per chance plugged with dirt or the like? Speaking from 35 years of IOU meter experience.


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## Eddie_T (Oct 21, 2021)

My meter box has no drain per se but could drain around the ground wire which exits the bottom.


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## Sparky617 (Oct 21, 2021)

One cool thing with the Smart meters I can call the electric company and have them kill the power to my house remotely, do the work, and then have them restore the power remotely.  No need to pull the meter or dispatch a tech.  When I added my new sub panel circuit and EV circuit I put the breakers in place before I pulled the wires into the panel so the bus bars were all concealed.  Newer panels would have a main shut off to kill the power to the bus bars.  Not required when my house was built in 1999.  Pretty common here to have a main panel as part of the meter panel, and then a sub panel in the garage with most of the circuits.  The main has my AC units' breakers, my garage sub, my range breaker (currently unused) and now my basement sub and EV circuit.


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## louder (Oct 21, 2021)

They acknowledge the problem, tell me its my responsibility to pay a "Licensed Professional" to fix it, (apparently one of their own), or, do it myself and submit to multiple inspections, a mandatory upgrade to current code throughout the house, and deal with possibly days or weeks without power. 
All the prices I got were more than it would cost me to install a new service in a new home. 
None of the 'Professionals' seemed interested in actually doing the job, at least not anytime in the near future, (likely so long as they have new work to do).
I was told by two 'Professionals' that if I replace the meter 'pan', and cable to the breaker box, it constitutes a 'new service' thus would need to be brought up to modern day code standards. That includes the installation of a new breaker panel, new service cable, new meter pan, and all new breakers, with would include two ground fault breakers, and 11 arc fault breakers, at roughly $88 each. 
Since the house still has some two wire runs to lamp outlets in the bedrooms and living room, that wiring would also have to be replaced as well as any wiring with braided outer insulation.
The basement lighting has a thick, silver woven wrapped type of wire running to the overhead light fixtures, which are only still there as a back up. The individual wire is 12/2 vinyl insulated with a bare 14ga ground wire. Its not a problem, its not a fire hazard, its just older style wire. Its been here for 42 years and powers only four LED light bulbs in an unfinished basement.  The wires leading to the stove outlet in the kitchen, 9ft above the breaker panel are made from the same stuff, but in 8/3 with a ground. Not hard to replace, but I'm not replacing something that's not a problem. 
The bathroom has no outlets, just a single LED fixture over the sink. According to two 'professionals' bringing everything up to 'code' would mean adding ground fault outlets, all new wiring and a fan to the bathroom. This all came from two separate 'pros' who gave me estimates to replace the meter pan. None would just replace the meter pan, or the service cable since I figured if its disconnected on both ends and only 10ft long, why not put new stuff back up.
All quoted prices well beyond double the retail cost of any of it locally, not to mention I can buy wholesale from where I used to work. 

I'm more than capable of replacing just about anything myself, but the prospect of being without power for a long period of time when its starting to get cold out is my big concern, especially when something as simple as an 18" strip of foam weather stripping would likely fix the problem inside the meter box.

There is drain holes in the bottom, there are four holes in a 3" square pattern around the center of the bottom panel, plus the lower edge is just flat, no wrap around, but the inside of the box is folded upward there about 1/2" or so, but the ends of that fold are not sealed tight, nor are the corners of the box. 
The issue is likely the path water takes as it runs off the meter down behind the panel. Its likely dripping directly onto the open end of the cable.

The bottom line is the water needs to be either diverted away from the end of the lower SE cable, or prevented from getting into the box in the first place. At the very least, the end of the cable should be 'sealed' with something that keeps water out. I'm sure a big handful of sealing putty would do the trick, or even simply pouring some sealer over the open end of the cable.

The sail panel idea won't work here, we get too much wind ripping through here, I'd have to pour footings and support poles to keep it from taking off. (The neighbors 3x6 glass topped patio table got picked up and thrown across the street the other day, and all we had was a few 'windy' days. I've replaced the rear storm windows on my house now 10 or more times after they got broken by either wind pressure or flying debris from the field behind the house.


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## louder (Oct 21, 2021)

Eddie_T said:


> My meter box has no drain per se but could drain around the ground wire which exits the bottom.


This box doesn't have a ground wire, so no intentional holes other than the four screw holes fr a conduit plate on the bottom that aren't used since its got regular SE cable and a clamp. 
Not even the neutral is connected to the meter box, the only neutral connection inside is wire to wire via two ring clamps with bolts. The meter lugs sit ontop of an X shaped plastic insulator secured by four screws countersunk in the plastic. No connection in the box is grounded in anyway. 
The meter box is small, maybe 8x10" or so.
Its also buried into the siding, so only the face of the box is flush with the siding, the cable on top is also cut into the siding a bit. 
I had a house in PA about 20 years ago and the SE cable was enclosed in square plastic rain gutter, it kept the sun off the cable and looked a lot better than a huge chunk of cable just hanging hap-hazard like on the outside of the house. I started to do that here, but they told me I cannot cover the cable, unless I replace it and use conduit, but they said conduit isn't an option because my installation would require a lateral run along the rising roof line. So no conduit, no vinyl trim around the wire.


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## bud16415 (Oct 21, 2021)

Sparky617 said:


> One cool thing with the Smart meters I can call the electric company and have them kill the power to my house remotely, do the work, and then have them restore the power remotely.  No need to pull the meter or dispatch a tech.  When I added my new sub panel circuit and EV circuit I put the breakers in place before I pulled the wires into the panel so the bus bars were all concealed.  Newer panels would have a main shut off to kill the power to the bus bars.  Not required when my house was built in 1999.  Pretty common here to have a main panel as part of the meter panel, and then a sub panel in the garage with most of the circuits.  The main has my AC units' breakers, my garage sub, my range breaker (currently unused) and now my basement sub and EV circuit.


I don’t think I like the lack of LOTO protection with someone across the state having the ability to fire the power back on while I’m working on it at my end. Something comforting knowing the meter is pulled to me.


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## louder (Oct 21, 2021)

When I lived in PA years ago, one house I had had a switch on the meter box, there was a big handle on the right side of the meter box, with a lock ring top and bottom so if you turned it on, or off, you could padlock the handle in place. It kept it from either being turned on when you wanted it off, and prevented kids from just flipping it off as a joke.
The other place had switch boxes on the pole out front, the boxes were at eye level, the meter was on the house. The switch box was an emergency cut off in case of flood or fire, that house was on a lake, and all the houses in the area were set up that way. To kill your power, you simply walked out to the pole and threw the switch, and moved the double key tumbler padlock to the bottom position to keep it off. 
The meter was then dead, as was the wires from the pole to the house. They considered anything past the pole 'customer owned', but more than once replaced those wires due to system upgrades over the years with no charge to me. The meter there was a small rectangular box with both analog and digital readout. It sat in a stand alone cast aluminum box that was connected to the main panel inside via heavy aluminum conduit. The customer had no access into the meter assembly, but did have access to the point where it connected to the main service from overhead, and to the lug secured wires at the access plate where the conduit entered the building. That house used to be an office before I bought it, so that set up may have been from those days, the electric bill there was cheap so I never bothered to change anything. 
I don't think my summer electric bill there ever exceeded $60.


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## bud16415 (Oct 22, 2021)

I think in today’s world the powers to be don’t want the average individual anywhere near the current potential coming off the pole. Being able to switch that on and off other than at your main panel is asking a lot of most people.


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## louder (Oct 22, 2021)

I can understand that, I've got two neighbors that call me every time they pop a circuit breaker. One is a retired nurse, the other a retired bus driver. 
People are getting dumber as time goes on. If it can't be done through their phone,  their lost.

I'm not one of those. I just wish we didn't have to break the law to fix our houses here. 
The bottom line is this is only a pair of 110v lines and a neutral, its not the sort of power that can reach out and touch you. Simple precautions is all it takes. If i were to replace the whole service, I'd just go up top and cut the wires at the crimps and do what I needed to do, then either bug them back together old school or see about finding the right crimp ferrules to make the 4/0 to 2/0 crimps with. Like I said, I've got the crimper here, and a pair of large fiberglass handle cable cutters, both where left here by an out of town power company that came to help restore power during a big storm years ago.  (They left tools and parts all over the place, Including a 40ft fiberglass pole for resetting the fuse or closer on the pole out front).

But right now, all that I need to do is stop the water from running down the inside of the SE cable into my main panel in the house. If were to redo the whole service, I'd run that cable around and below the box and come in from the bottom vs. the top to prevent this from ever happening again, but there's also some senseless code here saying that the SE cable must not travel more than 5ft from the meter before attaching to the main breaker. If not, it requires an external switch separate from the meter box on the outside of the house. I've not found any such switch that's water proof that didn't have an enclosed breaker or fuses. They're just not something that's used in this area I guess.  

I looked close at a few other houses here and their meters fit tighter, some even have the older style meter with the larger glass globe. The glass on mine is sort of rounded, and smaller overall than the meter the box was likely originally made for. 
Changing the meter box will be a bit of a project because of how its buried in the siding, I'll have to both build up the mounting area and redo the siding to fit the newer, larger box.  
I looked at a few vids on Youtube, and it showed a SE cable fitting with a ground attachment added for other additions, like the cable and phone lines, but couldn't find any such thing here.  All they have is either an add on ground bar for the inside of the meter box, or a clamp on ground connector for the outside of the box, which the box now already has. The problem is, the box itself is not grounded or connected to the neutral wire.
So other than a wire I ran to a new ground rod beneath the meter panel, the cable and phone grounds were going no where. 

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning of not bonding the neutral inside the meter box, but yet it is in the main breaker panel.


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## bud16415 (Oct 22, 2021)

Would it be possible to post a few pictures of your actual meter showing the globe where the water gets in and also the inside of your panel and where the water comes out?


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## louder (Oct 23, 2021)

Here's a shot of the top of the inside panel and the meter. 
After looking at the pictures, I can now see that the hole in the panel is larger than the base of the meter, I can slip a piece of corrugated cardboard into the gap pretty easily. At the bottom, you can see the metal ring part of the meter's base. The old meter fit the hole a lot better. 
If memory serves me right, there have been four different types of meters on here, one was a mechanical meter like this one but the glass had a key hole on the front, and a small metal box that protruded down at the bottom of the glass near the box, there was a lockout tag hanging from the meter itself.  That meter when away in the late 70's. They then put in one similar to the one on the house now, but that one had a larger more square cornered looking glass globe on it.  
Then they put in the digital / analog meter, then this one. 

The water trails down the black wire with the red hash marks and drips down over the main breaker. Its never soaking wet, but I see the rust stains where it was. I've never seen it actually drip, but if I wipe off the water marks on the bottom of that cable, they're back in a few months.  

The way its set up now, the wire into the breaker panel runs nearly vertical up to the meter outside. It goes down a few feet below the meter box, then turns and goe through the wall just above the soul plate and down into the box which sits nearly up against the floor joists.


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## afjes_2016 (Oct 23, 2021)

I have not really been following this thread and just checked quickly the pages posted already. Since I have not seen it mentioned yet - I see you have a FPE Stab-Lok panel. As many more will tell you get it replaced as soon as possible in case you don't know. When getting it replaced the leak issue can be investigated further.

There are major safety issues with this brand breaker panel.


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## Sparky617 (Oct 23, 2021)

Can you pull back a little on the panel shot?  What is the path from your meter socket to the panel?  Are you sure the water is coming in from the meter socket?  Where is the entrance cable coming out of the meter base?  Can you post a picture of that?  If your basement is damp, the rust could be due to the panel being in a damp environment for 50 plus years.

FPE breakers have had issues as afjes points out. When my dad was wiring back in the day it was his go-to brand but that was a long time before the issues with the design were discovered.


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## louder (Oct 24, 2021)

The SE cable comes straight down, it leaved the meter box, goes down about 4ft, turns inward through the wall, just above the block foundation wall, then goes right down below to the breaker panel. The wire lays on the soul plate, wood at the base of the wall , if the water was following the outside of the cable, it would have to get past caulking around the hole in the sheathing, and caulking around the wire where it goes into the siding.  
The basement isn't super damp, and its heated both by a single vent off the heater, and the presence of the hot water heater and drier.
In warm weather, there's  a large dehumidifier that runs on automatic. 
The humidity ranges around 40 to 60% during the summer, and 20-30% in the winter. Nothing else rusts or sweats down there. 
The rust tracking is only on the one wire, and directly below it. 

There's a sub panel 3 ft to the right that holds a breaker for what used to be for a stove. The former owners had a small kitchen set up for canning in the one corner of the basement. I tossed the stove and counter years ago and put my laundry room there. 

I have a new GE panel, but I don't want to put it in until the water issue is stopped.


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## louder (Oct 26, 2021)

Its raining here tonight, so I figured I'd check the panel downstairs.
The water is dripping steady into the box, its coming in faster than it can run out of the two holes i drilled in the bottom.
I stopped it by putting a 10x12 chunk of an old mud flap over the meter tied to the wire with a piece of string. That stops 99% of the water, so does tying a string around the meter glass to give the water an external path to flow downward.
If you look at the feed wire to the right at the top, you can see water trailing off the wire, dripping on the main breaker, and running down the left bus bar filling up the bottom of the box.
After i took the pic, I knocked out most of the bottom knockouts completely.
No doubt the box has to go but the water has to stop first.

They tell me that the meter cover cannot have a seal, yet that's where the water is getting in.
It runs down over the meter, follows the tapered glass back toward the panel, and into the gap around the meter, it then drips off the bottom of the meter down into the open cable leading to my breaker panel inside.
What I want to do is put a weather strip around the inside of the cover and a wad of plumbers putty over the splayed open end of the lower cable. No doubt that'll stop the issue but they say no way, replace the meter box.
I have a new 200a panel, (the current meter box is marked 125a). The meter doesn't fit the new box any better than the old box, it'll do the same thing unless I stop the water from trailing back into the box.
The guy from the electric company let out a bit of info the other day too, apparently the swapped out the meters in the spring, which is when this all started, the replacment meters are smaller. They dredged up some previous model meter because too many folks were finding ways to tamper with the meters they were using. I never noticed the difference myself, but the bill went way high around that time too, but it also coincided with AC usage around that time too.

Just a note: The outside of the top of the box and the cable are dry, the water is definitely coming from inside the SE cable from the meter. 
If I were to poke a hole in the SE cable casing, the water would then likely run down over the panel. 
The only fix is stopping the water from getting into the cable or into the meter box completely.


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## Sparky617 (Oct 26, 2021)

I'd use electrician's putty instead of plumber's putty, if by plumber's putty you mean the stuff you put around a drain before fastening it to the sink.   Does the meter box drain?  It sounds like the outer sheath of the entrance cable is below the bottom of the box and the water is flowing into the sheath and down into your panel.  I'd make sure the meter box drains, and seal around the entrance cable as it leaves the meter box.  If the outer sheath of the entrance cable was up a bit from the bottom of the box the water would probably not have a chance to go into it and down into your service panel.




			https://www.lowes.com/pd/Gardner-Bender-16-oz-Duct-Seal/4595233


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## Eddie_T (Oct 26, 2021)

It upsets me that your service company has such lack of service and compassion. Duke Energy is much easier to work with. The input is from the bottom (underground service) and the three wires from the transformer are in conduit. My panel is back-to-back with the meter. The transformer is too close to the house for code and that bush that hides it is also not to code. I showed them a spot to relocate the transformer but they haven't done so (and that was years ago). So you might say we have an easy going relationship (but this is the south).


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## BuzzLOL (Oct 26, 2021)

I'd do what's needed and tell the power company to F off... gotta do that sometimes...


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## louder (Oct 26, 2021)

Sparky617 said:


> I'd use electrician's putty instead of plumber's putty, if by plumber's putty you mean the stuff you put around a drain before fastening it to the sink.   Does the meter box drain?  It sounds like the outer sheath of the entrance cable is below the bottom of the box and the water is flowing into the sheath and down into your panel.  I'd make sure the meter box drains, and seal around the entrance cable as it leaves the meter box.  If the outer sheath of the entrance cable was up a bit from the bottom of the box the water would probably not have a chance to go into it and down into your service panel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The putty I've got here is gray, we used to use it on mobile homes to seal windows, wiring, and any bolted on install.  I think its made by 3M, it used to come in strips in a three pound box. 

The outer sheath is just over 1.5" above the floor of the box. 
The problem is the sheath is both directly below the lip of the meter, and its spread open a bit by the black wires as they bend outward to the lugs. Water that his the glass meter globe, runs down and back and follows the glass and lip of the meter back inside the box, dripping directly onto the open end of the cable. 
The water last night got so bad it looked like a garden hose, we had 3" of driving rain. I went outside in the rain and duct taped a trash bag over the front panel of the meter, and that stopped the flow of water but that's not a fix. The thing needs either an enclosure or some sort of seal between the cover panel and meter. Right now, any rain that hits the meter runs inside and down the cable. The water doesn't even get to the floor of the box, it goes right down the cable first, only when the cable is completely flooded does is spill over and out the drain holes I drilled. 
(The drain holes are basically not needed because the bottom of the meter box cover is a straight edge, with a gap all long the bottom. Since the box is half sunk into the vinyl siding, I drilled the holes outboard of the siding. 
When the cover was first removed a few weeks ago, it was full of debris at the bottom, pine needles, rotten leaves, dead stink bugs, etc. The cover gap is obviously large enough around the meter to let quiet a bit of junk in besides just water.


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## louder (Oct 26, 2021)

BuzzLOL said:


> I'd do what's needed and tell the power company to F off... gotta do that sometimes...



The problem with that is when I pulled the cover and added a rubber gasket the meter reader called it in as not having a tag, (they must get bonus points for every one they write up), they came right out, pulled the cover, ripped off the weather stripping, came to my door to make sure I knew they were there and that adding anything to the meter constitutes 'Tampering'. 

They retagged the meter and told me that its illegal to remove the tamper tag, and doing so is a crime, next time they're going to file a police report. 

 Right now its still raining, I've still got the bag duct taped around the face of the box. 
(The fact that a bag taped around the front cover and meter stops all water, tells me its not leaking in from the SE cable above or at the top of the box).


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## Sparky617 (Oct 27, 2021)

You really need to seal it up inside the meter socket.  It sounds like water is getting into the sheath and coming down inside that to your panel.  How you do that without breaking the seal is a problem.  It is going to require the support of the electric utility.  If you made a video of the water coming in during a rainstorm it might help.  Using a UV resistant tape to seal the gap between the meter and the base would probably help a lot, but may get removed every time they read the meter.  I'm thinking real duct tape, the foil kind that has a paper backing you remove to uncover the adhesive.  Regular duck tape will break down in the sunlight in a few months.


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## louder (Oct 27, 2021)

I really don't see why they won't let me add a ring of weatherstripping around the meter opening.
All it would take is a strip of 3/8" foam tape in there to stop water from getting in. The problem is simply that the meter has a large gap where it meets the panel.
I'm getting the impression they want to force you to pay out big dollars no matter what. No matter what is wrong, they tell you it'll take an "Approved licensed electrician".  

I completely understand that some folks shouldn't touch electrical, (some shouldn't ever pick up any tools) but I'd rather leave it up to Darwinism rather than some money hungry dirt bag at the power company or municipality.


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## Eddie_T (Oct 28, 2021)

If your meter box is not grounded or bonded to the neutral it could be a hazard when wet. Mine shows no obvious bond but the neutral lugs are not insulated from the box.

Some media outlets have reporters who take interest in problems such as yours. In my area their websites have click-ons i.e., WLOS Investigates, Ask WLOS or Channel 7 On Your Side and they often get results.


 .


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## louder (Oct 28, 2021)

The existing box is branded GE and is not bonded neutral or grounded originally. 
Looking inside, its obvious they went to great lengths to isolate the neutral. 
I added a pair of new 8ft copper clad grounds and a separate ground wire to the box because the guy who tagged it last said its required. The same guy who said that I cannot have a seal around the meter or cover, or any sealer on the cable end. 

I thought about the TV angle but we're not really in the direct viewing area of any stations here, Philly is closest and I know a few people at two of the larger stations but I figured I'd save that as a last resort. 

I mentioned replacing the box and service cables when to the same guy, he made it clear that doing so would constitute an 'upgrade' or new service, which would mean I'd have to upgrade the whole house to NEC 2020 code standards including hundreds of dollars of AFCI breakers, new wiring to support them, and a special exterior emergency shut off switch. When I looked into the cost of just the switch, which I wouldn't mind having, the best price I found was $840, and none were available due to shortages shipping issues. The same with the meter box, I looked into a new one and couldn't find a single meter pan in stock for under $100, the list price on the things is only $40, but the current shortages and building boom has prices through the roof. 

I also mentioned that I intend to replace the panel with a GE unit, and was told 'You better check with zoning enforcement before doing that, I don't think they allow GE breaker panels." 
I was told on the phone that 'any' upgrade or improvement requires the bringing the building up to meet all current code standards'. 

Today, the power company was here and said someone reported the bag over the meter, they ripped off the bag, opened and checked the meter box inside, when I tried to put some putty over the cable housing end he told me its against the law for a resident to touch anything inside the meter box or any wires connected to it.  I told him its on my property, and I'll do as I please with it, tag it and get tfo my property. He tagged it and said to expect a visit from the police. As he was leaving, unknown to him, he dropped about 30 new meter tags in the grass and about 10 used ones that were cut off.
Later I found a warning notice on the door stating that my meter was resealed, and they checked boxes for known hazards around meter, and the guy wrote in 'exposed ground rods sticking out of ground below meter', and "Illegal cover or shroud over or attached to meter". 

I called the power company and complained about the dirtbag they sent out here, the woman on the phone told me they get a lot of complaints about him. I insisted on talking to a supervisor but as usually none were available. The classic answer if you ask about anything code related is to call one of our approved lic. electricians. 
I asked how one becomes an 'Approved Lic. Electrician', and she said "you can't" and hung up on me. 

It seems when it comes to touching the meter or trying to repair anything, its their meter and their box, when it comes to replacing anything, all of a sudden its mine.
They just started using an outside meter reading company in April. 
In fact, today's the end of the billing cycle, I intentionally didn't run any major items all month to see how bad their ripping me off here. Last month, and the past three months were $190- $199 for electric. This month the only things I've run have been my cell phone charger, laptop, and two LED lights. They swear every month is an exact reading and charge. Last months bill showed that I used 880 kwh of electricity plus the minimum charge of $23 and a fuel surcharge due to the rising cost of natural gas they say. The charge over the minimum service was $153.46. 
I read this month as only 177 kwh, 9/28 to 10/28. If the fuel surcharge and minimum charge as constant, the bill should be $79 for this month. I won't know for a couple weeks when it comes in the mail. 
I've never seen a state so intent on making its residents so miserable and broke.

As far as replacing the stab lok panel, I've been intending to do so anyhow, but now I find out doing so would require I bring the whole house up to NEC 2020 specs, including adding AHCI breakers and rewiring about half the house. Then they say that GE panels are no good either. The inspector said that he won't approve any panel that uses or can use narrow breakers. 
I've used nothing but GE in all my houses, and shop, its been the go to brand for years. All of a sudden they're no good? Apprently HD, Lowes, and four electrical supplies haven't caught on because they still have them for sale here. (I shouldn't include HD, they don't have anything in stock, the sign up says that due to the recent rash of bad weather, and supply issues we've been overwhelmed by electrical component orders which has depleted our inventory for the next five to six months). Lowes right next door is well stocked and half the price. None of them carry either AHCI breakers or exterior emergency switches, or switched meter panels though.


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## afjes_2016 (Oct 28, 2021)

"_The inspector said that he won't approve any panel that uses or can use narrow breakers_. "
If a panel is rated for narrow, thin, piggy back, or tandem breakers (what ever you want to call them in the field) and you have the proper brand and type of breaker as per the panel label information there should be no reason at all that they would not be accepted or cause a failure in inspection. I would ask the inspector to site that code and I would highly doubt that they could justify that if it were even only a local code.

"_I also mentioned that I intend to replace the panel with a GE unit, and was told 'You better check with zoning enforcement before doing that, I don't think they allow GE breaker panels._" 
Really? I don't think they can dictate the specific brand you can and can not use unless it is something like FPE stab lock that has known safety issues a brand you happen to have.

AFCI breakers not AHCI breakers
AFCI  =  A.rch F.ault C.ircuit I.nterrupter

"_The classic answer if you ask about anything code related is to call one of our approved lic. electricians._"
The power company stated you could only use one of their selected "licensed electricians" - I don't think I have ever heard this before.


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## Eddie_T (Oct 28, 2021)

I'm just musing  as to what I might try  ·  ·  · a small inconspicuous dollop of silicone (in the shape of a chocolate chip) to encourage a drip off the glass. Seal the SE cable with silicone where it enters the breaker panel and maybe an inconspicuous compromise of the sheath to drain it before it enters the wall.

This will only work if you have power outages. Check with Lowes to find a panel that would pass code and zoning. Be prepared with all materials to switch out the panel during the next power outage. For safety even though power is out treat the wires as if hot. Then if the meter box and SE cable have to be replaced the panel should be grandfathered in, IOW play dumb as if the panel has been there as long as you have owned the house. Maybe age the panel's appearance or find a used panel.


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## louder (Oct 30, 2021)

Before the rain started this morning I took a lump of putty and made a rope and presses it into the gap all around the meter. I kept packing it in till the gap was sealed flush. 
We had a good bit of hard rain today and so far not a drop of water through the cable. 
its not a permanent fix but for now it stops the immediate problem.

There's been a few power outages but most are caused by tree branches or traffic accidents, they don't last long enough most of the time to swap a breaker panel.
If I can keep it going till warm weather comes around I'll pull the meter and do the swap, if it becomes an emergency, I'll just swap the panel out hot or pull the meter myself and not worry about their bs. The panel definitely needs to be changed out first, before anything obvious is done. 
There's no way I'm upgrading wiring that's not bad. Its not as if the place is wired knob and tube or with some antique wiring that's not safe. All the wiring in the house is plastic insulate. The only run that's not three wire is the basement light sockets, and those are only running four 5w LED bulbs now. 
The current box, regardless of it being an FP box, it full and I need more room in the box. Not so much for more amps, but for more circuits. Right now the system is laid out to control quarters of the house, plus a few added breakers put in for a couple of ac window units, lights in the attic, and a few outside outlets. 
The FP panel uses both narrow and wide breakers, if it had only wide breakers, it would only have 12 spaces for breakers. I have a 32 space 200a GE panel, 40ft of 4/0 cable, and a half dozen weathertite connectors for up top. I need to find a suitable 200a meter pan.


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## DesertRider (Oct 30, 2021)

louder said:


> The problem with that is when I pulled the cover and added a rubber gasket the meter reader called it in as not having a tag, (they must get bonus points for every one they write up), they came right out, pulled the cover, ripped off the weather stripping, came to my door to make sure I knew they were there and that adding anything to the meter constitutes 'Tampering'.
> 
> They retagged the meter and told me that its illegal to remove the tamper tag, and doing so is a crime, next time they're going to file a police report.
> 
> ...


not saying to do it, but you can buy every type of  “Tamper Seals “ on eBay... cut theirs, do what you need to do and replace... as long as it’s the same style seal, they have no idea.


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## louder (Oct 31, 2021)

I watched the meter reader the other day, the first thing he does is scan the tag, then he reads and enters the reading off the dials and hits enter. 
There's a bar code on the tag, and the lock tag number is on the monthly bill next to the 'date of reading'. 
The old tag was the same, but in a lighter color. 
The numbers on this tag are deeply imprinted in the plastic, but the bar code is just surface printed or applied to it, you can feel that the bar code is smoother and slightly raised as if it were a decal of some sort It doesn't peel off, there's no edge to the bar code. 
The tag that was on it originally had only a number and a four digit alpha numeric code stamped into it. 
The last three they put on were like this one.
(Years ago the tags were all metal, a steel ring with a crimped aluminum or tin body with a number in the crimp).


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## Sparky617 (Nov 1, 2021)

I would NEVER count on an extended power outage to do this work or work on hot wires.  The potential for serious injury/death is too great at service entrance level currents and voltages.


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## Eddie_T (Nov 1, 2021)

I said extended outage only as an additional safety I would still treat wires as is hot. YMMV but my electrician installed a new panel hot and I watched how careful he was. He removed the feed wires (wearing gloves) one leg at a time and taped them. Then removed and replaced the panel. With the new panel in place he first routed the feed cables to near proximity then installed the main breaker, un-taped and connected the feeds. He left the main off and proceeded to add breakers and connect branch circuits.

The greatest concern regarding current would be an arc flash and he was careful to avoid any possibility of that. Shock hazard is still only 120V unless you touch both lines or both rails. Though I don't recommend live work he did it to avoid inspection. We didn't know if panel clearance issues would be grandfathered in with inspection (plus I have no GFCI or AFCI breakers or receptacles).


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## bud16415 (Nov 1, 2021)

*As a DIY forum and being a Mod here I’m going to say No to any type of “HOT” electrical work involving 120/240V circuits. Be it a light switch or receptacle and certainly a service panel. No one here should be recommending any such work.*
*


I actually believe the more professional the advice giver the more likely they will be to agree working on anything in home electrical other than making measurements with approved test meters should be done “COLD” and verified cold with a meter before starting.



Trying to do any work during a power outage is about like playing Russian roulette.
*
*If anyone feels they want to work hot that is up to them, but as an advice giving forum I have to say no to suggesting it.   *


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## louder (Nov 1, 2021)

This is one of the reasons I'd like to see a whole house shutdown switch on the outside by the meter, but adding one here changes everything. 
If the shutdown switch is a breaker, it acts as the main breaker and safety switch, thus making the inside panel a sub panel. This changes both the type and wiring for the breaker panel inside because it then becomes a sub panel. 
There doesn't seem to be a non-breaker type safety switch option available, at least not one that's part of the meter pan itself.

Most homes that were built more recently or those which have had full upgrades done to the main service have combination meter/main breaker panels outside with no main breaker in the panel inside. 
A few have all in one type meter/breaker panels but I do not like the idea of having to go outside in the cold to reset a breaker. Not to mention doing such a conversion here would mean that each and every wire currently going to my downstairs breaker panel would need to be extended or replaced so it would reach an outside box. That's not an option. 

I don't have a problem working on it hot, but if pulling the meter is all it takes to be able to do it more safely, then I'll pull the meter and simply tell them the tag fell off or something. They have no reason to inspect anything inside just because the tag is off, and I do not have to let them inside the house. 

Having owned a dozen or so homes over the years, I feel I'm very capable of basic electrical work and after having to fix some supposedly pro-repairs in the past, I strongly prefer to do the work myself. 
Just looking at what is here in this house, and the way they ran the cables and mounted the panel, which was apparently done by a pro a long time ago, I'm not impressed.  The whole mount looks more like a temporary installation that never got finished. The panel is hanging on two 2x4's extended down from the floor joists rather than being mounted to the wall. The 2x4's were only attached with two nails which were hammered in leaving both boards loose. The panel itself was just a row of 1x4 planks nailed together and then nailed to the two short pieces of 2x4 hanging down.  

I added four full length 2x4's and extended the panel to a full 60" long, then fastened the bottom to the wall. Its now held in place with a half dozen deck screws up top, and two drive-it fasteners at the bottom. I also intend to make up a vinyl shield to keep the wires that come down from the above wall off the edge of the concrete blocks.  

I'm also not fond of how they jammed the panel in the corner like they did, its crammed between the water main, water meter, and the plumbing for an outside faucet, and  the drain and vent line from the kitchen sink runs directly above it. I can't move it to the right because of a window, and beyond that is the porch foundation.  It just seems that if they had put the service on the opposite side of the house, it would have solved a bunch of location issues, but apparently local codes require it be on the front corner on the left side of the house.


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## Sparky617 (Nov 1, 2021)

New combination panel/meter bases have a main shut off breaker installed and are required by code.  My 1998/99 built house doesn't have a main breaker.  The outside panel under the meter has breakers for my garage sub panel, range outlet, two HVAC outside units and now an 50 amp EV outlet and 100 amp basement sub that I just added.  It is now full.  I put the new breakers in place before I started working inside the panel to cover the hot buses and to prevent an accidental contact.   Since my house was built to code at the time, I'm not required to upgrade the panel to add the additional breakers.

I suspect if states start really trying to push all electric to reduce fossil fuel use a lot of electrical services will need an upgrade.  Add in a 50 amp EV outlet and 200 is going to be just enough capacity.  My heat, range, water heater and clothes dryer are all gas, taking quite a bit of load off my electric service.  Summer load is higher with AC usage.


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## bud16415 (Nov 1, 2021)

Sparky617 said:


> New combination panel/meter bases have a main shut off breaker installed and are required by code.  My 1998/99 built house doesn't have a main breaker.  The outside panel under the meter has breakers for my garage sub panel, range outlet, two HVAC outside units and now an 50 amp EV outlet and 100 amp basement sub that I just added.  It is now full.  I put the new breakers in place before I started working inside the panel to cover the hot buses and to prevent an accidental contact.   Since my house was built to code at the time, I'm not required to upgrade the panel to add the additional breakers.
> 
> I suspect if states start really trying to push all electric to reduce fossil fuel use a lot of electrical services will need an upgrade.  Add in a 50 amp EV outlet and 200 is going to be just enough capacity.  My heat, range, water heater and clothes dryer are all gas, taking quite a bit of load off my electric service.  Summer load is higher with AC usage.


Around here they are already talking farmers into long term leases or sales with annual income to give up land for solar farms. They send you a 57 page contract to study with your lawyer. No big deal for the food supply as most of the farmers are growing corn, beans and switch grass now to make alcohol or bio diesel for fuel. Now they will be growing solar electric for EVs.



We haven’t had a sunny day in 2 months and likely none for the next 4-5 months. Hope they thought this thru.

My mechanic told me the other day he got his first EV in for state inspection. I asked him if it passed the smog test and he said he couldn’t find the gas cap. The woman told him she was zero emissions now and he asked her where do you think the power comes from and she pointed to the street and said out of the wires. She told him she parks in the driveway and had a long cord added to power up the charging station cost her $5k and will charge in 8 hours. He was wondering what snow and ice will do to the plug in setup.


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## Sparky617 (Nov 1, 2021)

In NC EVs are exempt from emissions tests and they don't stick anything up the exhaust pipe do them anyway. They plug into the OBD2 connection and read the computer codes.  I'm planning for the future by putting the outlet in my garage.  I don't have an EV, but I figure when I buy my next car it'll probably be an EV, the writing is on the wall and there will be a lot more options in the next couple of years.   As the American Economist Thomas Sowell said, "There are no solutions. There are only tradeoffs."    Europe was big, much bigger than the US on diesel, and then VW got caught gaming the system.  Pretty soon you won't find a new diesel car for sale in Europe.  They're going EVs there.

Not to completely derail this thread, if you're serious about climate change the only solution that will meet the base load without burning coal, gas, or oil is nuke.  Try building a new hydro plant in the USA today.


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## louder (Nov 3, 2021)

Where I'm at, there's been very little support for EV's, they did put in a few natural gas stations, but too few and far between to matter and the vehicles suffer engine issues early on due to a lack of top end lube. I bought a used van from the gas company a few years back,  it had 38,450 miles on it, and needed two new cylinder heads. (Cheaper to just buy two new heads then to rebuild).  Then after a year, my insurance company started to surcharge me saying that aging gas powered vehicles posed a high risk in accidents due to the high pressure tanks. 
Not able to sell it, I converted it back to gasoline and sold it soon after. 
I had two hybrids, one Prius, one Ford. The Prius was fine for the first 5 years, when I was looking at having to replace or rebuild the main battery, I sold it.  It had only 22k on the odometer. 
The Ford was similar but I never liked the slow, heavy feel of the 4 cylinder engine and heavy battery pack. I sold it after only a year, but got lucky and got nearly what I paid for it since new models were scarce.

I had the chance to buy a Tesla from an estate sale but the prospect of not being able to do any work on it myself, and the charging issues, combined with the fact I don't drive much these days, I couldn't justify it.  
No doubt however, sooner or later there will be no other option but I still don't think battery technology is up to the task or affordable enough for it to replace gas or diesel yet.

My pickup is diesel, its 18 years old and has only 21,000 miles or so on it. It only gets used when I need a bigger truck or need to tow something.
It should outlast me. I thought about selling it but likely wouldn't get enough to buy something much better. The same with my car which is also 18 years old and has only 33k on it.  Between being semi retired, and what work I do I do from home, my vehicles don't get much use these days.  The diesel truck does get plugged in on cold days, especially if I intend to use it, and all three have battery maintenance chargers on them. I currently have a 20a outlet on the side of the house that I plug only the truck into in the winter, it handles its heater and the charger.   
I tried those portable solar chargers you put in the windshied but they seemed to draw the batteries down faster for some reason and you had to remember to unplug the things before starting the car. If you forgot, the thing would stop working and then become a draw on the system if left connected, killing the very battery it was supposed to charge.

Farms around here are all growing acres of fuel corn, so much so its been hard to find sweet corn grown locally lately. All the corn I saw for sale this summer was trucked in from out of state. NJ is supposed to be the 'Garden State", but locally grown anything is getting harder and harder to find. 
High taxes and high real estate prices have made farm land too valuable to just grow crops. Most have turned into multi-million dollar deveopments with $650k cookie cutter homes. They build the fancy homes in farmland, then they hassle the remaining farmers over dust, smell, and noise.

Three years ago I looked seriously into going solar here, but the after crunching the numbers, and figuring how much roof space this little house would supply,  the consensus was that I do not have enough roof space to generate enough power to even lower my current electric bill, and if I were to toss the oil heat in favor of all electric heat and then add in the prospect of an EV, I'd likely still be paying the same as I am now for electric and fuel oil combined, plus either paying for the cost of the solar array. None of the large solar companies who install panels thought it was worth their while since I do not have a southern facing roof angle and even with removing two large trees, I'd still not have sufficient space and exposure to generate enough power to make it worth while. They did talk a few neighbors into it though simply on the premise of 'going green' regardless of the cost.
All five companies I spoke to came back with an estimate that had me paying $30-$40 more per month for my electric, and that was without dropping oil heat or going to adding an EV or connecting the garage.  
For me, if its not going to save me money or make me money, I'm not doing it. Then there's also the expense of roof repair when you have a solar set up on the roof. 

My roof at the time was also only 5 years old, and every company required me to replace the roof before the install at my expense. 
That wasn't going to happen. The roof up there now hopefully will last the rest of my years, beyond that, I don't much care. 

Part of the problem here also is that the local power company will not buy back excess power, they even went so far as to not allow the 7 or 8 large solar farms set up here to connect to their system.  We have huge solar farms, but they don't supply a drop of energy to this area. Word is they are not concentrating on new sources but on rebuilding the old oil/coal generator station to try to reduce costs after the cost of natural gas has soared recently.  From what I was told, the major push to go all natural gas in 2015 has backfired and the one station is under performing and the other is too costly to run. The 100+ year old main plant is supposedly under overhaul to allow the use of oil or coal again to cut costs. We're paying 1/3 more these days for power than other areas with other electric companies.  When they voted to re-tool the system, the idea was to keep costs to customers low, the end result has done just the opposite.  

Its a small power company, supplying only a few square miles of customers, so minor cost increases get spread over only a few customers.  It also means a smaller customer base allows them to keep close watch on everyone. 

When I came here, the idea was to only stay long enough to get the house in shape to sell and to move south, but costs are so high, and zoning so restrictive, its nearly impossible to get anything done and every year the taxes go up another $400 or $500.


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