# Help finding recessed lights



## knlsand (Jan 13, 2008)

I seen part of a program where they were installing cans for recessed lighting in new construction. What I thought made them so nice was, they are installed even with joist so you can drywall over and cutout holes later. Has anyone out there seen these? The people I have talk to think im nuts.
Hope you guys can help,
Mike


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## Daryl in Nanoose (Jan 13, 2008)

You will find in new construction that drywallers mark the location of the boxes and then router them out later. Is this what you mean?


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## knlsand (Jan 13, 2008)

No thats not what i mean. The only ones i seem to find out there have a small flange and requires a cutout to be made before totally securing drywall.
These have no flange so you could actually finish the ceiling totally then come back and make cutouts.
Hope that makes more sense.


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## Daryl in Nanoose (Jan 13, 2008)

The pot lights I see up here have a flange that fits on with springs after the drywall is finished.


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## booft (Jan 13, 2008)

Anyone have pictures of this, I kind of know what you mean, I think but still unsure a little bit. I might be thinking of something else though too.


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## knlsand (Jan 13, 2008)

Maybe im using the wrong terms, sorry if im driving you guys crazy. Lets start over.
The housings that get mounted to the joists dont have a ring that sticks down. These are mounted even with the botton of joist allowing you to cover with drywall and cutout hole at a later time. Im not sure they could be something new.


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## ToolGuy (Jan 13, 2008)

I wouldn't know where to find them, either now or when it came time to do the cutouts.


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## speedy petey (Jan 15, 2008)

You are talking about Lightolier 1XXX series. They are exactly as you describe, and yes, they are nice for the reason you state. It is rare to have the rock all messed up around them since there is no flange to deal with. 
Just cut them out IMMEDIATELY, or you WILL lose one every now and then.


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## ToolGuy (Jan 15, 2008)

Of course, since most layouts are evenly spaced you can always measure to find one that had it's pencil mark mudded over. 

I've personally never happened into these flangeless cans but I've been thinking about it and I like the idea. when I use my rotozip to cut around the flanges there is little room for error, as the thickness of the bit riding on the outside of the flange makes for a hole just slightly smaller than the finish ring. Every time the rotozip decides to follow it's own path (and it sometimes does), I end up with a few cutouts that need a little extra attention when mudding the room. But if I'm cutting inside the perimeter of the can, the cutout is no larger than the inside of the can. Also, I don't thing the rotozip could take off on it's own if it wanted to.

I'm sure it doesn't make a difference to the client (I'm a contractor), as long as the lights are of a good quality and offer a reasonable selection of finish rings. But if the contractor is choosing the cans to be used, these seem like a really good, time saving choice. 

I don't do anything electrical anymore, but I still like to know what excellent products are out there. Thanks for starting this topic.


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## guyod (Jan 15, 2008)

I just installed my first cans last week. they sounded like the type knlsand was talking about. you installed it flush with the rafters/joists and once you cut out the hole there was screws you loosened to drop the can flush with the drywall. got them at lowes. maybe there all like that i dont know. is it important that can be dropped flush with the drywall? i installed them in a drop ceiling so it didnt matter .
 i used my rotozip like tool guy said first time it actually worked like it was suppose to in a ceiling tile.


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## ToolGuy (Jan 16, 2008)

All the cans I've installed have the solid flange, thus had to do the cutout before I could finish fastening the drywall. I guess it's not really required that you drop the flange, but I don't see why you wouldn't want to. At the very least, I'd prefer to have metal between the heat of the bulb and the ceiling material, be it drywall or drop ceiling panels.


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## speedy petey (Jan 16, 2008)

ToolGuy said:


> At the very least, I'd prefer to have metal between the heat of the bulb and the ceiling material, be it drywall or drop ceiling panels.


You will. The trim.


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## ToolGuy (Jan 16, 2008)

speedy petey said:


> You will. The trim.



Uhh.... of course, I knew that. I was just testin' ya. Good job.  

Question: Why would someone not drop the flange down like they're suppose to?


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## guyod (Jan 16, 2008)

the question is are you suppose to? maybe that is the difference between cans for insulated and uninsulated


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## ToolGuy (Jan 16, 2008)

guyod said:


> the question is are you suppose to? maybe that is the difference between cans for insulated and uninsulated



And the plot thickens...  

I think I'd drop the sleeve down just so the client doesn't ask me why I didn't. And if I'm doing something for myself (yeah right, that'll ever happen), I'll drop it for structural integrity, in case of a hurricane or earth quake.


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## guyod (Jan 16, 2008)

what is the differance between the insulated and non insulated ceiling cans?  Is this question related enough of should in be a new thread?


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## ToolGuy (Jan 16, 2008)

You mean insulated cans or cans for insulated ceilings? The later is in a metal box to keep the insulation away from it. And just post it in any ol' thread, it doesn't really matter. I think there's one about drywalling a basement that is open to off topics.


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## guyod (Jan 16, 2008)

I was talking about the later. when i was looking at the two different kinds at the big box store. I didnt see any in a big box.  i could see any real difference. maybe the cans are double lined...


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## ToolGuy (Jan 16, 2008)

guyod said:


> I was talking about the later. when i was looking at the two different kinds at the big box store. I didnt see any in a big box.  i could see any real difference. maybe the cans are double lined...



Yeah, I was guessing. Maybe double lined is it. Let's find out...


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## ToolGuy (Jan 16, 2008)

Ahah, I knew I'd seen them before...

http://www.lbclighting.com/NLIC-401QSAT.html

And here's one more realistically priced..

http://www.lbclighting.com/NHIC-17QAT.html


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## guyod (Jan 16, 2008)

guyod said:


> i could see any real difference. maybe the cans are double lined...



I meant : I *couldnt* see any real difference


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## ToolGuy (Jan 16, 2008)

guyod said:


> I meant : I *couldnt* see any real difference



Funny thing, I read it how you meant it, not how you wrote it. But yeah, I don't see any difference either. 

I added some extra _thrown _in insulation to a ceiling with cans in it, and I made baffles from sheet aluminum to keep the insuation away from the lights. Not sure if they were rated for contact with insulation cuz I didn't install them.


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## speedy petey (Jan 16, 2008)

ToolGuy said:


> Question: Why would someone not drop the flange down like they're suppose to?


Some "cans", or more accurately, recessed housings, simply do not have a "ring" that protrudes from the back side of the sheetrock to the finished side. 
As I stated, the Lightolier 1XXX series is such a housing.


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## speedy petey (Jan 16, 2008)

As far as IC/non-IC goes it can be anything and it can be nothing. 

SOME cans (Halo H7UICT and Lightolier 1XXXIC) have a big square box around the inner can. These are typically air-tite housings.

SOME cans (Halo H7ICT) have a baffle above the socket and a prong preventing the socket frame from being adjusted upward.

SOME cans (Lightolier Lytening series) have NO difference between IC and non. The trim and installation denotes the rating. 

SO...there is really *NO* cut and dry answer to what makes a can IC or not.


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## inspectorD (Jan 16, 2008)

Boy am I confused.... No lights for you. 
And someone is bustin stones....structurally. 

I install units according to what works in that area due to centering and things not fitting. What needs to be sealed can be modified...as long as the "building guy" says it's AOK.
 Or just go to some really high end low voltage lighting and open your pocketbook.


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## guyod (Jan 16, 2008)

Thanks for the info. Hopefully the next time i shop for cans i wont be so overwhelmed trying to figure out the differences..I installed utilitech new construction lowes generic brand i think. Im normally a patient person but they where about to be  ripped out and thrown across the room. i restrained and just threw the screw driver haha.. not getting them again.


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## speedy petey (Jan 16, 2008)

guyod said:


> I installed utilitech new construction lowes generic brand i think. Im normally a patient person but they where about to be  ripped out and thrown across the room. i restrained and just threw the screw driver haha.. not getting them again.


What works best for them, (and Emerald, Commercial Electric, etc.) is avoiding them like the plague. 

Stick with known established name brands and you'll be fine.


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## ToolGuy (Jan 16, 2008)

speedy petey said:


> As far as IC/non-IC goes it can be anything and it can be nothing.
> 
> SOME cans (Halo H7UICT and Lightolier 1XXXIC) have a big square box around the inner can. These are typically air-tite housings.
> 
> ...



Thanks Speedy, your two posts have shed more light (haaa haaa... couldn't resist  ) on this matter than the entire thread, and we now know more about recessed lighting fixtures than most small-time general remodeling contractors, such as myself. If there was a golden light fixture award, I'd nominate you for sure.


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## speedy petey (Jan 16, 2008)

Why thank you.


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## inspectorD (Jan 17, 2008)

I have to agree with Toolguy on this one.....nice job


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