# some roof questions



## buffalo




----------



## buffalo

Tried posting pics from my gallery but it wont work from my cell phone.

Once weather breaks I want to roof this tarped section of my roof. Right now there are a couple square plastic vents roofed in and that's it. It was an inlaw setup but I'm going to make it one large master bed.so the interior will get gutted , some beams installed for load bearing walls , and looking into weather the current stick built roof needs to be beefed up.I believe its all 2x4. The living space is  aprox 22'x22' . Give or take a foot. The roof has a single layer of shingles over some 1x4 tounge and groove board.

My first question is about venting. There is no soffit so a ridgevent would be worthless? What are my options? Can I build an extension to the roof to come out another foot , at a different angle and create a soffit and then cut a ridge vent? That might also help keep snow and rain away from the house?What are my options?

My second question is about the type of roof I want to install. I was thinking about going with a metal roof. I know the materials will cost more , but I'm thinking it will be a lot easier for me and I could do it with a friend a lot quicker.looking around online I see a lot of aluminum roofs with exposed screws and 30guage metal. They seem kinda cheesy . I'm told expansion and contraction can pull the screws around and the rubbers on the screws can fail over time.
         I'm a sheetmetal worker by trade , mainly HVAC , but years back I worked for an archetectual company and installed a few standing seam roofs where the clips and screws are concealed. So then I'm thinking even a step further and why don't I just make my own panels and gutters out of a 26 guage stainless steel. I have acess to breaks and shears and such. I've soldered stainless before , I know that's a pain , one job was a chemical plant and all roof components had to be stainless.I really haven't done a price check yet to see the cost differance between a prefab and me just buying my own sheets but I'm guessing its got to be significant. Am I crazy here?


----------



## nealtw

Stainless sounds expensive, but let's leave that for now and look at the rest of the problems. If you had a new roof framed today, the rafters would be 2x10s with 2x4 straping above that to allow for venting above the insulation. The heel cut is what we measure from the top of the wall on the outside to the underside of the sheeting so a 2x10 rafter with a seat cut to sit on a 2x4 wall with  a 2x4 stapping would have a heal cut of about 7.5 inches, engineered trusses are built with a simular heel cut.
If your 2x4 rafters have a seat cut to sit on the wall you will have a heel cut from 0 to 3.5 inches so extending the tails on the rafter will not give you enough space above the wall for insulation and air flow.
Normally we would say to add material to the bottom of the rafters to allow for more insulation but even with that you could still have a problem with ice dams if you are in a cold zone.
I do want to see the photos both inside and outside of the house and welcome to the site.


----------



## buffalo

Hey neal thx for the response . I'm the same guy you were advising in the introduction thread . I got on a laptop today and fixed the pics . I figure a 4x10 sheet of 26ga SS costs me about 100$ . The metal cost would be between 2-3K for that job including gutters and all . Sometimes I get carried away and maybe im on overkill mode?

  Like you said , leaving that aside for now , you can see in the pics I have no soffit . Ice dams are all around my house , the current gutters are worthless even in summer . Right now I have a foot of snow all over the roof and iceickels from the roof to the ground (I do break what I can) . 

  The ceiling in this space is only 7'5" . Maybe I'm better off just extending the walls and installing trusses? I have a ton of work though and I
 hate to devote to much money to this small area of the house . 

  I do have short videos too , is there a way to post those , or maybe just a youtube link? I cant get into the attic without opening up from the inside and its in the teens and singles digits this time of year so those pics will have to wait a bit . Right now that area is on a hydronic baseboard zone I been keeping at 45F since Im on oil and its costing me a fortune . (Yes my cheap butt sleeps in there , and no , my wife doesn't)


----------



## buffalo




----------



## buffalo

This is probabaly a bad interpretation of what I was thinking ....but could I cut triangle framing and add it to the bottom of my roof like in the picture above , at the back right of the structure? That would give me an overhang/soffit , with a cavity for air to travel up to a ridge vent?


----------



## nealtw

Yes that would work, we have also added swoops on the edge of the roof for the same effect but the curved fasia on the end is a ****.  You already have a prety low slope so those fixes may be questionable. Your quicker fix might be just to add 2x8 rafter right on top of the old roof, 6 inches of insulation before new sheeting. A level cut on the bottom to meet a 2x4 liner and you will have maybe 8 or 10 inches for vented soffet that would still be above window height and a ridge vent on the top.


----------



## buffalo

So basically that would almost be building a New roof over the existing? Would i have to worry about the added weight? I gotta snap some pics and beg your advise as to weather the existing framing is sufficient , in my own unexperienced opinion , I think its not so good.

At that point might i be better off cutting the whole roof right off and ordering trusses? Then I can raise the ceiling a couple feet too ? I want to be cheap , but I want it to be right. An even balance I suppose. I know the main house is gonna cost me a bit. As long as I'm framed and water tight I don't mind spending years on the interior.


----------



## nealtw

If you go with new trusses, have the truse company add the inhches you need you would'nt want to just add to the wall for extra height it would be a weak point.
If you were going to add new rafters above, you would add a new ridge board also you would just have to beef up the support on each end for the ridge beam, The lower end of the rafters would put weight on the exterior wall. Either way, it should be run past an engineer anyway.

With new trusses you could leave the walls low and do it with sissor trusses for a vaulted ceiling with out adding much cost, if any.


----------



## buffalo

I had thought about step vaulting the ceiling as is , if I left the roof framing , and it was worthy . I would have to have exposed joists , but somehow make it look good. If I went this route , what is the best option for venting without a ridge vent?


----------



## nealtw

You can always goes go with the no vent system, you still need enough insulation above the wall


----------



## buffalo

Ok , thinking out load here...what if I did put a metal roof on. I run 2x4 over the existing roof verticalaly towards the peak. Then I run 2x4 purlin horizontally across and install a metal roof over that. Then i have good airflow under the new roof. I address any possiable structural needs on the existing framing , and I can staple insulation between the existing trusses.


----------



## nealtw

If you insulate like that you will be making the attic a conditioned area with a different set of problems and four inches is still not enough.
I have spent a little time thinking about this, sometimes the short cut are not worth the effort, this is small straight forward roof, get a price from a truss company just to see what the cost would be like. Look at rising the pitch to match the pitch of the other roof, vaulted to raise the ceiling and solve all the problems.


----------



## buffalo

That was originally my plan , but the main house is gonna cost me a lot so I was seeing my options , I don't really need a vault ceiling , maybe just by a foot then pack insulation in there but not to the deack. 
 But your right I should at least check the prices of trusses. Were supposed to get 3-5' of snow withing 24 hrs , maybe the roof wont even make it .

24" on center would be the norm?


----------



## nealtw

24" would be the norm where I am, that would be a question for the truss guy. I suggested a vault in order to solve the height problem of the wall, I doubt if it would drive the price up much if at all. You would hate to change the roof and still have low ceiling but leving the ceiling in place may save the drywall, you would just leave the ceiling joists and drywall in place.
Hopefully you have insurance again the snow damage.


----------



## buffalo

I'm sure I'm starting to sound like the crazy guy with wacko ideas..

But asumming I was able to leave the existing roof framing , I was thinking about building a new 2x4 wall over the existing walls. I'm going to rewire the house and the existing wire is old and no grounds. I know the insulation probabaly needs improvment. So why not just abandon it all and put up new? Then I would have 2 walls of insulation? I'm on oil hydronics for heat currently , but I'm going to install ductwork for forced air , so I can demo any heating lines in the way with no issue. The ceiling itself has 1'x1' tiles that gotta go . At any rate all new drywall will be installed. 

Any reason my wall over wall might be a bad idea?


----------



## buffalo

Double post


----------



## oldognewtrick

You don't want to create a double vapor barrier. Moisture can get trapped and cause really bad mold issues.


----------



## buffalo

I dont believe this is any plastic behind the existing drywall. If i demoed the drywall and left the insulation would it be any different than a 2x6 wall (obviously being slightly thicker)?


----------



## nealtw

Like oldog say it could be a problem but if you just gut the space and build new walls matching stud for stud. You would have good insulation value then. Evan paint on the old drywall can be a vapour barrier and can cause problems.
Back to the roof ; As you suggested earlier about 2x4s above the rafters and then straping. If you remove the old sheeting for the bottom 2 ft, that would give you space for more insulation of the wall. You would be looking to get 6" batts there with air flow over that.
Or one more idea; Remove 8" of drywall from top of wall and ceiling add firestop behind the wall drywall and and build a sloped ceiling there on the 45. Then you could add drip edge venting and you would be good to go.
It's good to explore all ideas before starting, nothing is crazy until you do it.


----------



## buffalo

Im really diggin that 45degree , drip edge vent idea.I ran across a thread you replied to a ways back. The guy posted this product.http://www.everflovent.com/pro_inhaler.html

I could easly fab somthing like that up at work.Then the drip edge vent is actually unable to get water in it behind the gutter( I wouldnt include that "inhaler vent") .


----------



## buffalo

That would work no matter what type of roof I put down. Im kinda liking the metal roof idea because I can do it myself quickly , and without tearing off the single single layer there now. If I did go the make my own route I have acess to cheap metal and shops to fab. The one shop has a brake that is computerised , you punch the numbers into the program and it sets the depth and angle of brakes and does it all . You just have to flip or rotatethe peice when needed. 

Favor time is gonna come with the next roof to the main house. I want to cut it all off and order trusses , build a couple walls androof it in a weekend. Maybe rent a lull .then im gonna need some hands.that may have to wait till the next summer .


----------



## nealtw

Maybe rent a lull .??


----------



## buffalo

It will be kind of tall being on the 2nd story. The pic is from the back side of the house as opposed to the front , which mkes it look single story. Figure I could cut off sections of the old with it and lift off , lift up wood for walls , set trusses , and lift whatever roofing I decide up. 

Lull being a telescoping forktruck. Im certified so I dont see a problem with them renting me one. Hopfully get a good rate through work. We have them everywhere . Dozens at a time during peak season.


----------



## nealtw

Now I get it. Should be handy for taking things down. We had one handy on a douplex house one time we didn't find it handy enough. We coordinate deliveries with crane trucks so we never have to hand bomb lumber around or up. We evan have the roof sheeting on the floor before we drop the trusses on top. we lay the trusses on the side so we can sheet the gables before they are stud up. Stand on top of a wall is a little scary sometimes.


----------



## oldognewtrick

Buffalo. if you are going to put a metal roof on, PLEASE tear off the existing shingles and put on a heat resistant underlayment made for hard surface roofing. If you leave the shingles, they will cook under the metal, curl and distort the metal pans. I've even seen them fracture the seams and cause numerous leaks. It's penny wise and dollar foolish to roof over the shingles. Trust me, I'm a roofer.


----------



## buffalo

nealtw said:


> Now I get it. Should be handy for taking things down. We had one handy on a douplex house one time we didn't find it handy enough. We coordinate deliveries with crane trucks so we never have to hand bomb lumber around or up. We evan have the roof sheeting on the floor before we drop the trusses on top. we lay the trusses on the side so we can sheet the gables before they are stud up. Stand on top of a wall is a little scary sometimes.



Yea a crane would probabaly be ideal. But I'm not qualified and hiring an operator would cost me more. You guys that do this for a living have your timing/ coordination  and methods down to a tee. I'm just trying too mooch your knowledge without being too sloppy :beer:


----------



## buffalo

oldognewtrick said:


> Buffalo. if you are going to put a metal roof on, PLEASE tear off the existing shingles and put on a heat resistant underlayment made for hard surface roofing. If you leave the shingles, they will cook under the metal, curl and distort the metal pans. I've even seen them fracture the seams and cause numerous leaks. It's penny wise and dollar foolish to roof over the shingles. Trust me, I'm a roofer.



Thx for the advise and if I go metal i will tear them off. What exactly is a heat resistant underlayment?  Are there different types for different applications?


----------



## nealtw

People like yourself hang around big box stores to much. They will rent you a truck to take your lumber home. Find a real lumber yard in your area, they will have trucks of all sizes with and with out cranes. Here a drop load will cost about $60 and a crane will cost about $100 which includes about 15 minutes of crane time. You will have an advantage as half your floor is already in place so once you have cleared the debrea you will be able to have pre-cut studs wall sheeting and floor sheeting all delivered to the floor. Have your wets and joist delivered on the ground but make sure the wets are at least 14ft so you can lean up to to the house. Wets are the 2x4s or 2x6s for top and bottom plates and such and yeas you order wets, they are cheaper and they straighten out as you nail them in place. We would order the roof sheeting on a later order but you might have room for that too along with all the stuff to finish.
I doubt if your fork lift would be able to deliver all that material to the floor at the back of the house from the front.
Just some stuff to think about. The picture is a lumber real lumber truck.
On TV we see people pulling trusses up by hand from the ground, they lay them flat and pull them over the side wall and bend them. With the trusses comes a full set of instructions and the first page is the big warning about how to pick up the trusses or how not to pick up the trusses. You would have to be able to pick them up in the center with a chain and set them on the house and if not, get them delivered with a crane.


----------



## oldognewtrick

buffalo said:


> Thx for the advise and if I go metal i will tear them off. What exactly is a heat resistant underlayment?  Are there different types for different applications?



Organic, 15/30lb felt, will break down under the heat. We use a material made by Tamko, called Metal and Tile underlayment. It's similar to Weather Wach, but it has a higher heat resistance. You can install this over your ply and have a 90 day UV exposure. There are some other synthetics that are good also, GAF, makes a product called Tiger Paw, that holds up well to UV and is also used a lot under hard surface roofing.


----------



## buffalo

It's time for me to really start pricing everything out. If I do shingles what kind are the best?


----------



## oldognewtrick

If you do shingles, stick with either GAF or Certainteed. 

If you do metal, don't forget all the accessories. You need to price the metal itself, lock strip along the eave, rake detail, valleys, ridge cap, Z bar for the cap and rakes, butyl tape, screws, wall flashing and flashings for your plumbing boots.


----------



## buffalo

Alright after thinking about it a bit I'm droping all my crazy ideas and listening to you guys. I'm thinking about doing the entire roof for the whole house on one shot. I gotta rip 2 roofs off , and set trusses. Then I will use shingles recommended. If you look at my previous pics , on the main house , I need to build new walls on half the house in order to set trusses.I downloaded a drafting program sweethome3d to lay out my plans. I will want scissor trusses throughout for ceiling height. I priced out my crane and lull idea. A lull will cost me 1500 a month , crane 135$ hr. Although the crane I priced is prob to big. Anyway I still have questions. 

1).  What do I sheet my trusses with? Particle board ( osb?) Seems crappy , do you guys use plywood? What's recommended? 

2). My drafting program seems like more of a final 3d view " apperance" program. I'm looking for some rough framing programs , any advise here? 

3). I have plans for additions , which may include sliding glass doors , windows , in the existing sturcture that I may not get to till later. I know the basics of walls , but I'm unsure of framing requirements for windows and doors . I know size can vary , but can I prep the framing for things to be added in the future and in the now , just have it framed and fill with insulation untill I cut it open?


----------



## oldognewtrick

Before we bought a Lull, thats about what we were paying. Cant you set the trusses with the Lull?

If I were going to deck a house I was going to live in it wouldn't be OSB, it would be Advanteck...just my:2cents:


----------



## nealtw

You will have to watch the thickness of the floor, 2x10 floor joist that we use will shrink to about 9 1/4" and you will want to match the thickness of the plywood or? subfloor.
I would use OSB roof sheeting for walls and roof it has lines printed for 16 and 24" on center nailing, even when they don't land on a stud the line helps.
If you want I will tell the horrors of using plywood, it cost more and it's quality, my a!!.
I have had a program by 3D Home Architect, basic but does the job, Just google them, for some reason I can't copy and paste there address.
 We don't rent cranes, we just have thing delivered with trucks with cranes. Time saved is well worth the cost.


----------



## oldognewtrick

nealtw said:


> I would use OSB roof sheeting for walls and roof it has lines printed for 16 and 24" on center nailing, even when they don't land on a stud the line helps.
> If you want I will tell the horrors of using plywood, it cost more and it's quality, my a!!.
> .



Well, we agree to disagree, every house I've roofed with OSB was crap...sorry. I don't like how it swells when it absorbs moisture. Maybe your experience with OSB has been better.


----------



## buffalo

oldognewtrick said:


> Before we bought a Lull, thats about what we were paying. Cant you set the trusses with the Lull?
> 
> If I were going to deck a house I was going to live in it wouldn't be OSB, it would be Advanteck...just my:2cents:



My train of thought was lifting the old roof off( in sections) and lift the new roof with a lull. Trusses and flooring and shingels ect.. with the lull. Although a crane would prob be easier , a lull will be cheaper with a lot more time to use. Don't think I could use the delivery crane , I need to have the trusses delivered while having the existing roof demoed , I'm not that good. I think I could get a good 5-10 guys for a weekend. I been banking favors for 10 yrs.:beer:

Any advise on pricing trusses? I'm gonna start calling next week. Is it basically , a start calling for prices with dimensions thing? Local would be cheaper?


----------



## buffalo

nealtw said:


> You will have to watch the thickness of the floor, 2x10 floor joist that we use will shrink to about 9 1/4" and you will want to match the thickness of the plywood or? subfloor.
> I would use OSB roof sheeting for walls and roof it has lines printed for 16 and 24" on center nailing, even when they don't land on a stud the line helps.
> If you want I will tell the horrors of using plywood, it cost more and it's quality, my a!!.
> I have had a program by 3D Home Architect, basic but does the job, Just google them, for some reason I can't copy and paste there address.
> We don't rent cranes, we just have thing delivered with trucks with cranes. Time saved is well worth the cost.



I know osb is cheaper   I've had some fall apart in my rainy outdoors , while plywood can take a beating. Obviously with a Proper roof you shouldnt have this concern.  Talk to me guys. And what thickness?  What are the pros and cons?


----------



## nealtw

Thickness is min. code for your area, here it is 7/16. for the roof and walls that will be covered with anything but vinyl siding.
We just finished two custom houses, both used 1/2 plywood for everything and it rains here, just a little. Evan when we kept the plywood under tarps it swells with the moisture and warps. Makes it really hard to get it in the "H" clips on the roof. We had some rejected by the roofer because it delaminated when it got wet, 30 sheets had to come off on a 16/12 section of the roof and it's slimey to walk on when it is wet.
OSB will swell, so just keep a cover on it untill you use it, no problem.

Framing in for window and doors for future use is no problem. Headers that are more than 5ft want two jack studs under each end. windows are rough framed to the size of the window as in a 3. 0 x 5. 6 window  the rough opening will be 36" wide and 66" high
Doors are 82 1/2" high and 2" wider than the door, so a 3. 0 x 80" door, the rough opening is 38" x 82 1/2". For an out swing door lower it by an inch.
A double door exterior door add three inches to the two doors so 36 +36 + 3
A double interior door, just add the 2 inches
Sliding glass patio door are windows so you frame them like 72" wide and 80" high.
And yes after you frame in a window, just add studs that can be removed later.

Getting prices on trusses can be tricky, trusses have to be engineered and guess who pays for that, sometimes you can get that done and shop for prices but usually you are stuck with the guy that had that work done. You do want to get onto people that buy trusses and find out who is the bargain outfit and who gives more problems than they are worth.
One of our very good outfits got bought out latey. We expect some mistakes from time to time but we had 6 major problems on one house with this outfit.


----------



## buffalo

I ended up downloading a program called sketchup , ill start messing with it tomarrow. 

I have some questions on tools. I'd like a nice saw and a nailgun. I have a large kobalt stationary compressor already with hoses to reach anywhere. On a Job the other day a carpentar had a nice dewalt saw on a table that cuts angles and straight cuts . All I currently have is a hand held circuliar saw. I don't mind buying tools ill have forever.

  So my question is what kind of saw and nailguns should I bee looking at? I'm proba alt just construction simple walls with windows and doors. And I'd like a nailgun that I can use for framing and roofing. Can you change the nail types in most guns? I'm just looking for some equipment to get me through this adventure , I'm obviously not making a career out of it.


----------



## oldognewtrick

Roofing guns and framing guns are two different tools. Roofing guns use nails in a coil and framing guns use longer nails in a sleeve. They are not interchangeable.

If you have never done something of this magnitude, I would suggest finding a friend who is a contractor, or a framer friend or someone who works in the trade. It's great you want to DIY, but the potential for having catastrophic failure is great if you don't know have the knowledge to manage something of this scope. An engineer would be a good place to start. You have a lot of things to think about, like wind load, live load, load points etc. Just my :2cents:


----------



## buffalo

I know a hand full of roofers ( commercial guys but I know they do residential roofs on the side , I helped on a tear off once ....thats work! )  who will help me  and my good friend was a framing carpenter for years. My help isn't going to be a few suits selling insurance . All journeyman tradesman. 
  I'm personally a union sheetmetal worker. I'm a foreman for about 6-7 years about 20 yrs in the trade. I install mechanical systems on a commercial level . My field is more air handlers , roof top units , structurial steel ,  welding , job site coordination between trades. I personally don't see much wood.  It's seems pretty straight forward so far really. My house is just a rectangle , I need to build a couple walls and set trusses.  But I don't under estimate anybody's trade and my lack of knowledge. I'd like to educate my self as much as possiable . It's the little things ya know? And I know therea a ton of them because I learn something new every job after 20 years.  

I guess my intension is to draft up my plans and have them stamped by an architect.


----------



## oldognewtrick

I've seen so many projects over the years where homeowners watch these 30 minute TV shows and think, hey I can do that stuff and it turns out to be a ...well, you know what. 

Sounds like you have a nice project you're planning, just don't forget to add at least a third or more to the $$$ and timeline budget you estimate it to be.


----------



## nealtw

Stanley bostich makes framing nailers that are resonable to bay and easily sold when your done. You can get them in a strip or stick nailer or a coil style, neither shoot roofing nails. I think HD and others rent these. Stick nailer is handier as you can carry extra nails with you when climbing around trusses.
I like having a chop saw like your friend has, on the job, you do have to build a table for it and it can be a little awkward on the site. Most framers here just use a skill saws but I like to keep body parts attached so I use the chop saw when I can.


----------



## nealtw

Oldog made some good points about it being a big job. It's great that you have a friend that was a framer but all framers are not created equal. Is it his intention to teach you before hand, some help while you do it or take charge of the job. Will you have someone who can walk walls to stand trusses?


----------



## buffalo

nealtw said:


> Oldog made some good points about it being a big job. It's great that you have a friend that was a framer but all framers are not created equal. Is it his intention to teach you before hand, some help while you do it or take charge of the job. Will you have someone who can walk walls to stand trusses?



My friend is no journeyman at it , I'm sure by his own admission. I am hopfully  going to meet up with another carpentar friend Friday and go over some things . I know some others too , more acuantices . I wouldn't be opposed to hiring an expert in to run all of us around a weekend . Walking walls...prob not ,  tbh I'm stuck on the lull idea .I rig with these things all the time , I could pick your nose with one. A crane is basically not an option for me. 

Some thoughts I'm unsure of 

  Does the first truss sit flush with the outside wall? 
  What's a good process for plumbing the first truss , and for.that matter the rest? 
  I have to price trusses out yet. What pitch is best? 
  When you guys set rafters you make that notch to sit on the wall , how does it work with trusses? 

I know I don't have all the answers or know how. I have a lot of time . That's why I'm here . I appreciate your guys help.


----------



## nealtw

We don't use a crane to stand trusses, just to have them delievered to the top of the house. Some have them delievered and leave them standing in a package. We have them layed down. On a house like yours we would have a package landed and layed down toward the center at each end. The gable truss is different from the rest and would be on top of each pile. This allows you to sheet the gable and add the look outs and drywall backing before you stand it up. As soon as it is up, reasonable plumb, a long 2x4 braceis placed near the top and streached back to an outside wall leaving room that it won't be in the way of aother trusses being stude. It is placed so the sheeting is inline with the sheeting of the house, this will required some one to stand on the wall and see that it is line up while someone nails it in place.
The seat cut is built into trusses not cut out. It is the end of the 2x4 that would be the ceiling part of the truss, they should fit to the outside of the sheeting front and back of the house, good luck with that. As they never fit you pick either front or back and make sure every truss fit the same along that wall. That does mean you need a straight and firmly braced wall.
Two 3" nails in each end to the top of the exterior wall do not nail it to interior walls untill after the catwalk is in, last. Carefull layout is very important as per instruction that come with the trusses
To hold trusses straight on layout a 1/4 is add across the top about half way up the slope, level and on the exact layout that is on the wall, front and back. these are temp so you nail one 3" hand nail in every truss, nail left up just enough to pull them later. they stay in place until they are in the way for the next piece of sheeting.
Let the questions begin.
I can't see how you could do this with out some one walking the walls.
If you think that is scary, the liner is the 2x4 that goes on the tales of the trusses usually about  20 or 24" outside the exterior wall althow this could likely be done off your forklift.


----------



## bud16415

All the power equipment is a plus in getting things up on the roof. It always seems the projects I get involved with are limited on equipment and also manpower. If you find yourself trying to move and set trusses with two or three guys and no equipment you will be doing it like most of the DIY community. I have a few tips if you get forced into doing it with the elbow grease method. 

The way I have always done them is carry and set them upside down (point down) gravity works in your favor that way. Before we get them up there have their locations already marked on both sides on the top of the wall and ahead of time we made up a bunch of sticks out of 1x2&#8217;s for our spacing with two nails started at 16&#8221; or 24&#8221; depending on your center distance these are placed a few places along the top of the truss to hold them to the one next to it until you get to the sheathing.

When we go to flip the truss up we attached a pole with a rope to the center of the truss pointing straight up with the rope attached to the high end of the pole two screws work well for this. Get the truss as close where it&#8217;s needed before flipping leaving room for it to flip. Now the guy in the center pulls on the rope and the truss turns over very easy and the guy in the center holds the pole to keep it upright and stable. He can lift on the pole and the other guy or guys can walk it down into place. Nail it into the wall and attach your sticks while checking center distance remove your pole and repeat. When you get close to the end you will have to flip and shuffle a few as you run out of room for your pole to do them one at a time, by then you will have something sturdy to lean them against. 

I have set them alone with this method using a weight I hang on the pole after I flip them and walk them down using a step ladder going a little at a time end to end. 

Leave the sticks on right until you nail your plywood. I don&#8217;t drive the nails for the sticks down and you just pull and toss the sticks as you go. The trusses can be knocked over a smidgen here and there as you go as they may have a little bow in them. 

Like I said in the beginning a crane is nice but not always in the budget. Several buildings I have made we made our own trusses so the delivery thing for free wasn&#8217;t there also. Sometimes where a building is located you can&#8217;t get back to it with equipment etc.


----------



## nealtw

Bud; with houses you have walls in the building that don't allow the flip. It's not usually bad for the guy walking the center, some time you have to build something to walk on. It's the guys on the end that have  scary job. Sometimes we see lower scafolding put in for them. The whole thing can be like a house of cards and can easily fall over.


----------



## bud16415

Good point. I haven&#8217;t done one by hand off the end of the building but have seen others do that. They run the top plate long off the end and then hang them upside down flip them one at a time and walk them down. 

House of cards is very correct and why I like to use the straps as I go. Sometimes I see long straps spanning several trusses but when you take one of those off you have several loose trusses. I have seen some people use a 2X inside the truss to hold them but once you nail that in if your truss is bowed it&#8217;s hard to get it over to fall on the center of the end of a sheet. 

I guess that&#8217;s why the old timers like my dad built stick construction he never had a helper. 

I&#8217;m curious to hear how Neil and the other pros feel about Hurricane strapping trusses and or stick built even when code doesn&#8217;t require it. I personally think for the little cost and time involved it&#8217;s a good thing to do.


----------



## nealtw

We're in an earthquake zone everything is strapped down, bolted down, bolted together, stress walls are added. Even bookshelves and refrigerators are supposed to be tied to the wall. We do have a strapshot gun just for hangers and straps.
I have seen two truss sets blown down with a gust of wind while men are working on them, one friend broke his neck when his fell knocking him off the building, scary stuff. It makes you understand that nothing can be trusted, temp braces must be in place at all times and as soon as you have a few up, even with the midline straps for layout you add angle brace on the top surface. If you keep all of that in mind you will be fine until you plumb up the gable which can't be done until almost everything is done and then most of the time all temp braces have to be removed to adjust it.
We never get to work on a house like this one, designers like hips, valleys, fake gables. We just did a big house with a 16/12 pitch three sets of trusses. Trusses on top of trusses, vaulted ceiling 18ft high and hand framed timber trusses. It was a test. The best part was the engineer spent hours inspecting it and past it without a call back.


----------



## buffalo

Well i had the day off today and went down and talked to the building inspector. I then went into work and had one of our guys in the CAD department do me a simple layout. I think I will be using him for CAD from here on. I'll try and post the simple layouts when I get to a computer, id like your opinion on a couple things.  Next step is to hit up a lumber yard . 

I do have a couple questions , but I want to read over the posts a bit to be sure I'm not missing it.


----------



## nealtw

I found some instructions that will be helpfull http://www.tpic.ca/english/pdf/handling.pdf
I also found this site about these people building a garage. They made lots of mistakes and did alot of it the hard way but it might give us things to talk about.
Mistakes on quick reveiw. Window framing,  wall squaring, wall sheeting, angle bracing the trusses temp and perminent, catwalks and tie braces (not shown) Window installation ?
Done the hard way, handing up plywood over side (safer and easier from inside the building) sheeting the gable and building the ladder for the lookouts and tail liner last (all tails are not equall and liner should be put on level and straight  before sheeting)
We are a little ahead here we also need to look at laying out for walls and wall construction, bracing and a bunch of other details
http://www.toadmama.com/ex_walls.html


----------



## buffalo

One thing im confused about or reading wrong , you don't sheet any of the roof until all the trusses are set correct? 

 The first truss should be perfectly plumb and braced , are you saying I may have to tweak trusses  as I sheet so they end up on center? 

Im unsure of what catwalks and tie bracing refers too.  The lookouts are bracing on the under side of the trusses? Lookouts and tailliners would be the portion of the roof that extends past the exterior wall? 

I read the 2 links you gave me last night . Very helpfull , thanks for digging them up. Is like to understand all of your thoughts on thier mistakes , maybe I should start with the walls. I'm going to build 2x6 walls . I'm not sure what by code I will need as far as windows. Technically its already a 2nd floor living space , but will i be required to add windows , I'm going back to the building inspector todqy though for those answers. The wall I'm building along the front of the house will be part of 3 bedrooms. I was thinking of framing a sliding glass door in each as down the road I'd like a deck. 

Hopefully I can upload a pic of my cad which will be a little more clear.


----------



## nealtw

I will try typing slower so you can keep up.
After all the trusses are stud and nailed on the end walls, with a 1x4 running across the top section about half way up on both side on lay out
Then you add a catwalk, which is nothing more than a 1x4 running across the top of the ceiling portion on lay out, one ever ten ft of truss these run perpindicular to the truss.
Now you have a unit with all the trusses nail at the ends and bottom cord running straight. You nail the trusses to the interior wall. While some one is climbing around up there you add drywall backing to the top of the interior walls. Wall running same direction as the trusses can have a 2x6 on a 2x4 wall to catch drywall on both sides. Walls that are still not held in place stiff can have blocks nailed between the trusses and nailed to the wall,
Only then you can plumb the gable end with an angle brace( 14ft  2x4 from near top inside of gable down to the top surface of the ceiling cord and nail it to a 2x4 block that is nailed across 2 or 3 trusses down there) You don't do this while the wind is blowing as all other braces may have to be removed to plumb up the gable.
If you have done everthing perfect the other gable will be plumb just add the brace (good luck with that) it never happens, you will have to plumb that end too.
The liner is a 2x4 nailed on the ends of the truss tails.
As you know lumber comes bent a wavy all over the place there is reall nothing holding the top cords straight for when you nail the sheeting to them, you need something to help with that.
Having the liner nailed to the trusses on layout will keep that end in place. The 1x4 you have nailed across the top surface half way up will help but you will still want to check layout on each  sheet 
until you get close to the 1x4s. and then remove the 1x4s. Osb has lines printed on it to help with nailing.
Ridge block can be added before you sheet if you can reach the peak from inside is the best time. The trusses should have a space between them like 22.5. The trusses will have joiner plates in the way so 22.5 will not fit, we subtract 1/16" and find that works most of the time, get that wrong or have the blocks a little off straight and the layout will screw up in a hurry so that wants to be checked as you go. If you can't reach the peack you waite until the sheeting is up close but then the blocks will have to be cut to fit as the layout will always be off a little.

The look out is the 1 ft that sticks out over the end of the gable ends. I said 1 ft because that is easy anything more requires a whole lot more work and problems you don't need to get into.
There are a few ways to do this. what we do is . Cut four 2x4s exacly the same as the top cord of the truss and a bunch of 9" blocks.
After sheeting the gable end we add one of our 2x4s along the top nailed thru the sheeting into the top cord of the truss one. The top block on each side is the only one that is improtant for placing. They want to be placed so that the bottom corner of each is touching each other. One block every three or so ft is good and then add the other 2x4 on top of the blocks. We do all this while the gable is laying flat on to of the pile of trusses and then stand it up.

When I have time I will look over that link to see if I can find more things to talk about.
Two sliding glass doors. The city will require that you have keyed locks on then until you have the deck built. I would frame them in and stud and sheet over them until you have the deck built.
Vinyl or fibreglass decks are now considered a roof and should be built 6" below the floor of the house and the vinel decking wants to go up the wall and under the door, so the doors will have to be removed to put the vinyl down.
Headers that are 5ft and larger must have 2 jack studs on each side so a 72" sliding glass patio door (window) the rough opening is 72" wide and 80 inches high and the header will be 2   2x10s nailed together 3 nails every 16 inches 78 inches long. Real doors are different.


----------



## buffalo

Thx for your patience Neil . Very good explinations and I'm pretty straight on what has to happen now. Couple questions.I was planning on looking into scissor trusses. The 1 story inlaw area is approx 7'6" from floor to existing joist. The 2 story area is approx 7'0" from floor to joist . This would give me a better ceiling height. 

At 7' I wouldn't have the height to allow for the ruff opening of a slider correct ? Are there shorter ones? 

My outside stud dimensions are approx 22' , so what is a typical soffit , 2' ? If I purchase a 4/12 roof , the center of my truss will only be apox 4' tall. I would be looking at a 26' end to end truss.


----------



## nealtw

I would go up to a 6/12, the lower you go the more work will have to be done after they are installed, tee bracing and such that will be in the instructions to make them strong enough for what ever snow load you might require.  and you have a better chance of walking around in them for flat ceiling.
I would go with vaulted on the lower roof and then you will need to go 6/12 outside and get 4/12 inside a little trickier to assemble but not impossible.
The upper roof I would build the new walls with full height pre cut studs knok the top plates off and add studs beside the old ones and bring them up to height if the old exterior is 2x4 just make the new studs and top plates 2x6 and later you could add the 2" where needed to bring the rest of the wall out to 2x6. I would raise the headers in the old walls too.
Vaulting in the upper roof only if it is one big room as usually they are flat and vault one room,say a master bedroom or bath. If you vault the whole thing then the interior walls have to be built later to meet the ceiling height.
On a 6 or 4 / 12 the tales close to 2ft usually. they don't want them to interfere with the windows, the higher the pitch the shorter the tales with an eight foot ceiling. With a nine foot ceiling you lower the windows to allow for longer tails. So yes you would be close to 26 ft give or take.


----------



## nealtw

http://www.pahi.org/sitebuildercont...lders-guide-to-trusses-alpine-engineering.pdf


----------



## nealtw

I have a diy friend that has been talking about the roof for his new garage for a while. He just called me to ask if he could be a grunt on the roof job so he could learn, I'm not sure how the insurance will work but I told him he could be a non working looky loo. Not a bad idea.


----------



## buffalo

First floor exterior wall floor plan . (all existing walls)


----------



## buffalo

Ok , I kinda figured that was gonna be imposable to read. One thing I hate about this house is no internet connection. Everything is off my phone , or a laptop in conjunction with my wifes hotspot , and no mouse! All slow and impossible to maneuver.


  From the pic you can probabaly make out some points I do have questions on . The lower square is the inlaw setup , the upper rectangle is the main house . My measurements were taken from outside of stud to outside of stud in the basement . In a perfect world I would assume the stud layout should end up the same on the second floor , for a truss length I would have to take the outside stud demsion and add to it the sheathing thickness on both sides correct?

  My big question , I know the dimensions are not legiable....but the main house steps out 8" for some reason towards the top 18'8" of the floor plan . Can I just install the exact same size trusses on the second floor and build the new wall accordingly to accept them? I would then have to weather in the 8" exposed on the outside at the 2nd floor 'floor level' . 

obviously you wouldn't stager the ridge line . Or would the lumber yard make a truss to take that into account and I build the walls with the exact OD of the first floor?


----------



## nealtw

Outside of sheeting to outside of sheeting is the correct way to measure the house. Missing the measurement by a 1/2 to 3/4 can be dealt with no one will know. I pointed out that step back earlier and you just rip down the wall fill in the floor if it's not there and build a new wall. You will be re-siding that end of the house above the garage anyway.
Oh; that eight inches, that pic is back one page. The house was designed to have a gable facing the front. That would add cost and tricky work. Just tell the truss company that you want all the trusses to line up no jogs, they will have to add some to the rest of the trusses as the bairing point has moved. Likely they would add a peice of 2x4 into the truss over the wall.


----------



## nealtw

If you check my post#58 you can see how the front gable is put up with a gable and a valley set.


----------



## oldognewtrick

Neal, the link you posted in post number 53 shows the framing of the exterior walls and they are putting the plywood on verticle to the wall studs. I always thought that ply was installed on the horizonal to the wall studs. Roof decking always goes on horizonal.


----------



## nealtw

I posted that one just so we could find the mistakes and talk about them. As I understand it plywood is omnidirectional and osb has a direction it should be used but I have installed both in both direction and never had it failed. On the roof we put the sheeting on across the trusses but when you get a hip 4 ft from a valley we turn it the other way, never had that fail either.


----------



## buffalo

nealtw said:


> I would go up to a 6/12, the lower you go the more work will have to be done after they are installed, tee bracing and such that will be in the instructions to make them strong enough for what ever snow load you might require.  and you have a better chance of walking around in them for flat ceiling.
> I would go with vaulted on the lower roof and then you will need to go 6/12 outside and get 4/12 inside a little trickier to assemble but not impossible.
> The upper roof I would build the new walls with full height pre cut studs knok the top plates off and add studs beside the old ones and bring them up to height if the old exterior is 2x4 just make the new studs and top plates 2x6 and later you could add the 2" where needed to bring the rest of the wall out to 2x6. I would raise the headers in the old walls too.
> Vaulting in the upper roof only if it is one big room as usually they are flat and vault one room,say a master bedroom or bath. If you vault the whole thing then the interior walls have to be built later to meet the ceiling height.
> On a 6 or 4 / 12 the tales close to 2ft usually. they don't want them to interfere with the windows, the higher the pitch the shorter the tales with an eight foot ceiling. With a nine foot ceiling you lower the windows to allow for longer tails. So yes you would be close to 26 ft give or take.




I really like that idea to raise the ceiling on the 2nd floor and keep a flat ceiling. There are  3 beds and a bath up there. If I'm going to mess with that existing wall( which is almost 44' long) I gotta ask one more question. 

  Down the road when money is there , could be years , I want an addition on that side of the house. A big living room 2 story's high possiably the length of that wall and out away from the wall maybe 25'. I want that wall in question to open up at that point in time. The bedroom walls would pull back about 4' into the existing building.  That would leave me a 4' balcony overlooking the living room.
If I'm going to mess with the wall maybe I could build it with say 4 columns and a big beam across . Tie the existing wall Into that for now.what should I look into for what I would need for that?


----------



## buffalo

nealtw said:


> http://www.pahi.org/sitebuildercont...lders-guide-to-trusses-alpine-engineering.pdf



 Reading it , thanks.


----------



## nealtw

For the addition, that is making it huge. I can only talk about what they might design for that. there would be a big girder to hold up the existing trusses witch will include special footings in the foundation and may need a third bairing point and a valley set to go on todays roof with a gable out the back. there is a limit to the height a truck can move so you will have trusses on top of trusses.
I would draw up that set of plans too and let them look at both and make suggestions on the best way to consider both jobs.
If you went with a hip style roof now, you would have a girder about 6 ft from the back wall and might make the addition easier as you would just remove the outer six ft and add more roof on top.
But all this is engineers work, they design it ,we just put them up. But it is a good time to talk about it.

Back to the basics, I want to know about the floor upstairs, now. Joists size exactly, span and on center, plywood thickness.


----------



## buffalo

Yea , that's way beyond my ability to even learn , at that point I would need an architect to draw it all up , and sub a lot of it out. Kinda why I din't mention it till now. Just figured if I was going to rebuild that back wall I might want to address it now. Guess my next stop sgould be an architect before the lumber yard . I have an idea what I want but no set dimensions , most likely not that long. In all reality it may never even happen.

The current 2nd floor ( the actual floor I'm assuming is what your asking) is 2x6 , 16"o.c. ,  covered with a 5&1/2 " tounge and groove board. A bunch of walls on the first floor are load bearing as the joists change directions here and there , varying their length . My plan is to add beams and open the first floor up a bit.


----------



## nealtw

Oops, that ain't gonna work! Your new floor will be a span of about 10,12 ft yes. 2x10 min joists. This job just got bigger. That sounds like some added the back half of the upper floor on existing ceiling joists. At the very least we have to spend some time talking about the floor. If you have a crawl space or basement try to figure out just what walls down stairs are actually bearing or have a beam under them.


----------



## buffalo

Ouch , well I had to get medevil on my drawings. I'll have to get my cad guy to draw them up.

Basement throughout house. 2x6 joists throughout main house , 2x8 under inlaw. The main beam in the basement runs about  4-6" off center to the south of the first floor wall deviding the stairs/living room from the dining room . 

I believe the second floor joists run north south in kitchen/ dining room. East west in living room / foyer. 

I'm going to draft second drawings on what I want it to be.


----------



## nealtw

I want you to measure the joists again. 2x6 = 1.5x 5.5- ,   2x8 = 1.5x 7.5-  rough  2x6 = 2+x 6-.  I'm a non believer but I have seen some strange things.
Is that the only bearing wall in the basement, I can't figure out what is holding the floor up upstairs. Is there a drop beam between the living room and the area beside the dinning?


----------



## buffalo

Ok I just noticed something weird. All the joists in the basement are 2x8 , 7 of them are 2x6 for some reason. The beam and sills in that area are taller making up the differance.can't really tell from this pic , but its over 65' with all the joists , 12' ,  running north south and resting on the beam.






I'm gonna pop some ceiling tiles tomarrow to be sure of all the joist patterns for the first floor ceiling. I'm pretty sure I already know. Every wall on my 1st floor plan is load bearing. I believe that is a beam between the kitchen and the unmarked room due south of it. Here's a pic of a joist in the dining room ceiling. It's deceiving by the pic angle , but its true measurement is 5&1/2" . 






Pic looking from dining room into kitchen. You can see the beam running east west.


----------



## buffalo

It might not be correct , but all the joists are in the first floor ceiling already , and being used as a floor. The last 4' that's shaded on the second floor isn't used as the pitch of the roof is too low. It goes from 3' tall  to 0'  over 4 '. I can't see the new roof weighing much more , but that weight would be distributed through the exterior walls anyway right?


----------



## nealtw

2x8s are min. for floor joists and it is is pretty standard to have 2x6s for ceiling joists. The reasons why I think the back half upper was added later are. 
If you were the builder of this house in the first place why would you not pitch the roof a little more to allow for 8 ft ceiling upstairs, Why would you dedicate space for the basement stairs when you are going to have waisted space under the upper stairs. If you used 2x8 joists down stairs why would you go against code to you 2x6s upstairs.

There are alot of other things I would be looking at if I was there, like wiring, are the wires at outlets downstairs the same vintage as the wires feeding outlets upstairs. I would look at the rafters in the unused area in the attic to see if there were caller ties that have since been removed.
My first thougt was really not a big deal just toss the upper floor walls and floor deck and add floor joists and build all new but then you have to deal with the stairs, that would require all re and re  stringers landing and all.
It is time to get an engineer in to prove I am wrong and see if has ideas for saving the floor. I'm not trying to be mean but non of this would pass inspection and you wouldn't get a permit unless you can get an engineers report to go with the application.


----------



## buffalo

I hate the stairs where they are now. My plan was to move access to the second floor into the addition down the road. Well looks like things just got a bit tougher. 

In residential framing the structurial engineer is the architect correct?


----------



## nealtw

not here, call a lumber yard for a requimendation.


----------



## nealtw

If you are thinking of moving stairs, and you will likely have to had floor joists anyway, save the money for the engineer and just do it. Call the permit dept. at the city and the lumber yard what they think of 2x6 joists, you most likely will get the same answer without spending the money.


----------



## buffalo

Well to my wife's dismay I started to rip open ceilings to see exactly what up there. Your not gonna believe this but the previous tile I took out was the only joist that was 16"O.C.. All the rest throughout the house are 12" O.C. The living room has double 2x6 in the long span and a tripple in one spot. 

Does this help my situation by any chance? If its acceptable could I add double or triple joists in the gable framed area ?


----------



## nealtw

Have you gone to the city to see if permits were drawn for this or if it was original to the house. If so you may get away with it. If you did, you will never put tile in the bath up there. The walls on both sides of the living room have to be bairing or at least a double under them in the basement. The double and triple would be there to carry the load of the walls upstairs that don't seem to be in line. So, if you have a triple on top of a 2x4 wall, how are the joist attached to that. That might be a double with pressure blocks on one side, we would use hangers today but that might happen when the joists a just a little short.
Tell the wife the ceiling has to go anyway, that crap would not give you the time to get out of the upstairs in a fire.
If you find that you can use this as is, you said earlier that you were thinking of open walls down stairs. The time for that would be sooner rather than later. Now you would be able to hide most of a 2x10 double or beam in the floor.
I can turn your photo over to read it but I can't post it?


----------



## buffalo

The building inspector is aware of the 2nd story , and my roof plans. I haven't raised the question about a permit being pulled. It's deffinatly not original , as you said earlier , the wiring used in spots is way newer. Also some old 2x4 roof joists are still in the ceiling above the kitchen. They just abandoned them there as they laid the 12"O.C. 2x6 joists. The majority of older houses in this area used to be summer cottages , which eventaly became houses and additions scabed on to additions. I'm a couple miles from lake Erie beaches. 

Last night I did demo a wall . The wall with the door seperating the kitchen and dining area wasn't load bearing. What a differance. Above the wall are 4 joists , although 1 of them is in 2 pieces? The other 3 are solid wall to wall. The upstairs beedroom wall is directly over it. 













As far as the double and triple joists in the living room go , I figured they did that because the length of the span? Two of the double joists are actually 3 joists on one wall , but somewhere above the ceiling one joist stops and its only a double on the other wall , so I just drew them in as double joists. Over the living room they sit on shims , maybe 1/2" , and are toenailed into the wall. They are also nailed into a board running perpendicular , I believe running the length of the walls.


----------



## buffalo

These are the walls I'd like to remove. The red walls are the ones I want gone now. The blue walls will be down the road if I can afford an addition and move the stairs. 

Red wall #1 I would like to turn into a wall that is about 3' high . Wall #2 I want gone. I want to open up the red portion of wall #3 to make a wider entry way. Wall #4 I'd like to open up , and build a new exterior wall to make the porch an interior room. 

I was looking at a carpenters work the other day on the job and questioning him. He removed a load bearing wall and installed a beam in the actual floor space , cutting the joists , and butting them into the beam. I din't know you could do that. That's gotta be weaker than having the joists sit on the beam? Obviously i wouldn't be able to hide the entire beam with that method due to 2x6 joists , but I'm just raising the question. I have 2 weeks off so maybe I can do some of this work.


----------



## nealtw

The double looks like old construction campared to the rest.
Yes you can buty beams in floor and use steel hangers to hang the joist from them.
The problem is the weight, and tthis is where you should have the engineer look it over.  Floors joists should stop on at a bearing wall or beam that has solid bearing. Depending on the weight some time a footing has to go below the floor in the basement. even if there is a footing there it may not be big enough for the added load
#1 carrys floor joists above dining room
#2 carrys floor joists above living room alcove
#3 carrys joists above living room
#4 A header over a 5ft opening would work, Adding the outside wall only works if you have bearing below it. And would be better for the roof.
I think you need the engineer.


----------



## buffalo

I will contact an engineer before I tackle any of that. Thanks for all your help Neil , ill let you know what happens.


----------



## nealtw

http://www.criterium-ferrari.com/
Some one like this could be helpfull.


----------



## inspectorD

great advice Neil, just having a professional look at what you are going to do.... makes everything go smoother in the long run. They may even find something you forgot, or even have another idea you could do with less cost in the long run.

Hire the Pro, $$$ well spent. And if it sin't , ask for your $$ back. Mention that up front, and have a discussion about how they can help you.
Good luck!!


----------



## buffalo

Nice link Neal. I may call them , seems like exactly what I need. I'll keep you posted.


----------



## nealtw

I was just hoping they were close to you. I'm sure you could find more like them.


----------



## nealtw

Reposting all your drawings and photos and anything elso have might be helpful.


----------



## buffalo




----------



## buffalo

[/IMG]


----------



## buffalo

buffalo said:


>



So I'm back to the original plan of just tackeling the inlaw roof . The walls between living room/bedroom and kitchen/bathroom are load bearing . I've already taken out the kitchen/living room. I peeked into the attic last week its all 2x4 stick build except the joists are 2x6. It's full of a bunch of yucky old ,blown in looking , insulation. I want to make this one big masterbed , maybe put a half bath in there. I was thinking about a big master bath , but we really don't need that I suppose . 

So the plan is once the heating season is over I demo the interior and roof , leaving only the exterior walls. Then set trusses , roof , and I have the summer to drywall/wire/paint ect. I was thinking about building 2x4 walls over the existing ones for 2x the insulation.


----------



## nealtw

If you add the walls inside then you could add to the existing walls to make them full height, that wiyulkd make the stiff enough.. Except you have to be carefull, if you don't end up raising the other roof, you don't want the inlaw roof to be high than the house and that may be why it is lower, in that case, I would look at sissor trusses and leave the wall height alone. The truss company would want to know how thick your walls are for sissor trusses.
I guess at this point all you can do with the house is draw up the plans, showing the exsisting 2x6 floor and see if they will let you get away with it.
Where I am you wouldn't need a permit to repair the roof on the suite.
In some areas there is a dollar value that a home owner can get a permit for, so you might to do it as unfinished space.

You said you had been doing some beam work, remember to keep in mind where the load is going in the basement. If the origanal wall were only carring the ceiling you may need to double up some floor joist below.


----------



## buffalo

Yea I need a permit . I wouldn't need a permit if it was only shingle work. It's somting like 100$ plus 5$ per 1000 spent so whatever. I haven't touched any load bearing walls in the main structure . Good idea about making the walls higher , haven't thought about that. 

  Have any advise on how to size beams for load bearing walls? Is like to have a plan set , so when I run it buy an engineer its basically.done and he just has to approve it.


----------



## nealtw

The height difference with the main house would be the only question. As far as sizing beams, above my pay grade. I can find span charts and figure live and dead loads and snow loads but seldem get it right because the engineers are looking at a lot more or should be, they don't like it when you over size the beam too. Didn't make sence to me until he explained, he had required a 5.5" x 9.25" beam and we installed the 5.5" x 12" that the lumber yard delivered. He said some day some engineer will look at that beam and think he can add (X) more weight to it and if someone did that they would be overloading the foundation and footing as they were designed for the smaller beam.

In your basement it looks like everthing up the middle is being carried by some steel and wooden posts. If that is all there is then the walls running the other way upstairs that are bearing the floor above or the floor that you would like to use up there. Then the beam will want to run full distance so the load is landing abaove the foundation wall and the center beam in the basement.


----------



## buffalo

I'm starting to make a material list. As far as gutters go , is there a type that has a flange attached to the gutter that rides up the roof? Then you could ice and water shield over that flange? If not what style do you recommend?


----------



## nealtw

Usually the roofer is up there first, if there is something like that, I have't seen it.
When you have figured your list, add 30 length of 2x4.


----------



## nealtw

http://freezeblock.com/
You should be able to solve ice damming with ventulation.


----------



## buffalo

Hello all , especially  Nealtw! Who has been a huge help and great teacher! 

I figured I'd stop back and beg for some more help! So I basically  did nothing structural since I last visited. I spent my money on getting natural gas brought in , new hot water tank , new furnace. There were some close calls on getting oil delivered with my driveway and snow , not to mention the sky high prices. Filled 4x at 700$ last winter! So I installed forced air and ductwork . 2 stage variable speed and a direct vent hot water tank. Now I have no need for. Chimneys. 

  So you might have seen on the news we had a killer snow storm about a month ago. Well it broke my house , lol. I shoveled for 2 days straight on my roof. I'd say I got about 7' of snow. So I had a couple contractors come out and they were kinda lost. As Neal said , I needed a structural engineer. He was out last week. 

Unfortunately  some rot was found in some joists that broke and insurance is only going to cover a fraction of the damage. My plan is to rip off the second story and rebuild. My engineer at initial inspection believes it won't be a problem. One plus is he is going to let me draw up my as builds to save me a bit of cash. So most work is on hold until I get a set of stamped drawings.

 I do have one area , the workshop behind the garage , that I would like to adress now. I'd say half the joists cracked , all bowed if nothing else , alot!  I'm worried if that goes it will further damage other areas.


----------



## nealtw

So let's deal with the garage. You wrote joists, did you mean rafters?
2x4, 2x6 ?
length?
sitting on solid walls that sit on foundation or?


----------



## nealtw

Are you living in the house now? I feel really bad that we didn't talk more about temp repairs while we were looking at other things but with that much snow, it may not of helped.
Are you still in the house and is the roof leaking?


----------



## buffalo

Yes we're living here , both the contractor and engineer said we're ok , but I do worry about the snow ahead. I did move the kids into our room though and demoed out the ceilings. Most of the rafters are rotten. The storm was just the final blow. 

So the garage workshop I believe is a 3/12  pitch with 2x6 on 24" center. They are 24' long. I know scary. I will add pictures after dinner . I was told to sister the wood , maybe on both sides and adding a beam in the middle. The beam requirement is obviously on the engineer but if I have to change it out later so be it , it's a very dangerous roof and needs to be adressed now. 

They are all bowed pretty bad if not broke , so I'm looking for expertise on how to jack this up. I'm guessing I'd use 2x6x12 with the beam supporting the middle of the 24'span. I have 2 weeks in a row with 4 day weekends , I'm sure I could fix it with all that time.


----------



## nealtw

The garage work shop has a concrete floor? It is not ment to carry a lot of weight but that a chance you have to take.
I will wait for the photos.


----------



## buffalo

Having problems posting pics from my phone. I'm having the wife try to upload them today.

Yes the floor is concrete and the walls are mostly cinder blocks with a wood wall on top of that. I'll get pics squared away today.


----------



## buffalo

I'd say broken or not they all bow 4-6". Do I jack one at a time up? I'll have to take a few better pics , but the ends that sit on walls have notches  to sit on the walls , so it's not like I can slide them in straight.


----------



## buffalo




----------



## buffalo




----------



## nealtw

My first thought was to build two walls that could be lifted with bottle jacks but that has a sliping problem.
First chore is to check for roofing nails coming thru the sheeting and will be in the way for sistering, you want to cut them with a small angle grinder and water squit bottle.
We want to do the new rafters in pairs sowhen you have your head between 2 rafters clean up the nails on your side of both rafters and then move over 2 ( explain later)
If you don't feel safe working under there, use  2x4s to tempbrace between the rafter and the floor.
I'm thinking 2x8s 14ft long (Crown up)
You will need a quick square for fast angle finding.
Cut a sample out of a chunk of 2x8 about 2 ft.
We want a tail to sit on the lower wall. Cut on end of the 2x8 at 3/12 plumb cut ( Match your roof angle)
3 inches away from your cut draw another plumb line 
On the back wall measure from the top of the wall to the under side of the sheeting (depending on how they cut the birdsmouth this might be anywhere from 3" to 4 1/2"
On the 2x8 put that measuement from the top down and draw a square line out to your plumb cut.
The area below that line is to be cut away leaving you with a tab to sit on the wall.
Engineers don't like big notches like that cut out of a timber so we can do an extra cut, so you can add to the wall later
The other side of the quick square gives you a seat cut without changing the setting.
Place that on the bottom edge of the 2x8 and slide it down untill it gives you a line about 2" long and draw that line and cut that little tri angle off.
Now that is what we would like to have sitting on the wall but it won't slide in there and lift up into place so on the top corner you will have to cut an angle that will allow you to slip it in there.
You want to remove as little as possible and a little trial and error until you have it.
Trying this to fit close to the side wall should prove that all your angles are right and will be good to go.
Use this as a sample to cut the ends of all your 2x8s
Set them all in place on the back wall, remember the will be facing each other in each bay.Other end on the floor. 
Later


----------



## nealtw

Just went and looked at the pics. Hmm chipboard and drywall, temp beam.
You do have some work to do. If you follow ny plan the beam will have to go, which can be replaced with a stud directly under each rafter.
Back to my plan
Lift up the other end of one of them just by hand has high as you can and support it with a 2x6 a few inches to long at about 12 ft from the back wall.
You want to have it at an angle so when you tap the bottom in it will lift the rafter, but not yet.
Lift each of the new rafters and place a 2x6 under each. 2x6 want to be the same length and placed in the same place on each rafter.
If we lift it like this the rafters will roll over so to hold them up right each pair will want 2x6 blocks on edge between them measure at the lower wall the distance between each pair and hopefully
the guy that sheeted the roof kept the layout straight, if not you may have to deal with that as you lift.
You want blocking near the bottom and close to where the support 2x6s are.
Thing slipping is always a concern so I would use hanger straps to attach the bottom end of the rafter to the wall and to attach the support 2x6s to the rafter
Now you should be able to lift them into place by tapping the bottom of the support 2x6 in. I would be using a 10 pound hammer for tapping each just a little at a time,working back and forth.
You may find that they have slipped up the roof a little when you have them in place, you may be able to hammer them back down with a big hammer.

I have said back wall thru out that may also mean front wall.
You will want to watch carefully that everything is staying straight as you lift extra blocking and bracing may be required.
I didn't suggest lift it straight up because iI was thinking you could lift the rafters off the back wall.
You may want to lay lumber on the floor under the support 2x6s to spread the load over a greater area.
I have not done this before, I have repaired 2 with a simular system


----------



## nealtw

I was thinking too about your house, getting thru the next snow load and the winter.
If you have gutted it I presume that is insulation too, snow will melt off quickly but also cause ice damming.
What's the plan?


----------



## buffalo

I'm going to have to read through your post a couple times and figure out what your saying although I get the jist  . That beam you see was actually there for the garage door , it probably  saved the entire roof from collapse.  I added 2 4x4 braces under to joists that you can't see from the pics. Pics are hard , I may try to make a short video.

As for the 2nd story. I dint demo all the insulation , just enough to see alot of bad things.water is coming in this morning , first real rain. I'm thinking I can carnack  the leaks. The whole roof is tarped except the flat , which is the leak. 

The PPE told me I'm lucky I shoveled , and to do so again if we get over a foot , at least 3 roof collapses on my street alone . My plan is to demo the interior 2nd floor as much as I can until I rebuild , but that will be after winter. 

I'll get some better pics and a video  if I can.

Thanks for you help and have a merry Christmas! !


----------



## nealtw

I wrote the for the worst case. Of coarse there is always 20 ways to do anything.


----------



## inspectorD

This is always a dangerous thing to deal with, please be careful.  





buffalo said:


> As for the 2nd story. I dint demo all the insulation , just enough to see alot of bad things.water is coming in this morning , first real rain. I'm thinking I can carnack  the leaks. The whole roof is tarped except the flat , which is the leak.
> 
> If the roof is leaking, you have some serious shingle issues, and the tar paper underneath probably has long horizontal cracks as well.Probably have to replace the entire roof assembly, and save as much plywood as you can.
> The PPE told me I'm lucky I shoveled , and to do so again if we get over a foot , at least 3 roof collapses on my street alone . My plan is to demo the interior 2nd floor as much as I can until I rebuild , but that will be after winter.
> Also be careful of what the PE told you, you do not want to be on a roof that will collapse if it gets more snow. And if you do shovel the roof, do each side evenly on the way down the roof, because if you do one side then the next,,, it will be disastrous. just in case you were not aware. Good luck with this,
> 
> I'll get some better pics and a video  if I can.
> 
> Thanks for you help and have a merry Christmas! !


 Merry Christmas to you as well!!


----------



## nealtw

inspectorD said:


> This is always a dangerous thing to deal with, please be careful.   Merry Christmas to you as well!!



He just wants o get the roof thru the winter, as he will be removing the second floor and replacing it as well as a whole new roof structure.

I was thinking extra 2x4 bracing down to the bearing wall. As is another big snow storm could take out the whole house.


----------



## buffalo

Not trying to be disrespectful by posting on Christmas  , but I'm taking advantage of real Internet at the inlaws.

I understand your advise I believe after reading it , Neal. Basically I make the notches  in the rafters to match what is there , to allow the rafters to sit on the wall. My notch will be deeper if i use a larger peice of wood. I'm sure you recommend  sistering  with 2x8  because thier stronger. At that point , would 2x10  be even better to sister with? 

I'm assuming you want me to sister rafters in the same bay so I can use blocking between them to keep them from tipping? I'm linking a video I took. These rafters are tied into the rafters on the main garage. The main garage rafters and these rafters are also tied into joists every 48" from the main garage. They are lagged together with 2 - 3/8 bolts each . This would only allow me to sister on the left side of every rafter. 

I'm unsure why you recommend 14' boards? The existing 2x6 rafters are 24' long. Using your method I'm calling the back wall , the wall that boarders main garage. I'd assume I would use the same process off the front wall? I'm thinking if I used 2 -12' boards and did your process off each wall they would meet in the middle , where the beam would be installed?

I'm also assuming I would know when I have jacked an entire rafter length up high enough by placing a straight edge along where the 2 - 2x12  meet? 

Just a few observations. My floor is far from level. A crack goes through it and it seems it pitches down inches towards the front wall(garage door) , from the crack. I can't rely on finished floor measurements. The outer most rafters seem unaffected since thier so well supported,  maybe I should use a string  line between the 2 to determine height instead of a straight edge? The soffit on the outside of the front wall is over 3'(not that that matters , just noting how that 24' rafter sits)


----------



## buffalo

http://youtu.be/ZRO_iG32LIc


----------



## nealtw

More pictures adds more questions. 3/12 only applies to the shed roof at the back?
24 ft includes over hang?
I am seeing 3 roof sections front and back of garage and shed.
Did the engineer suggest a beam for each? Really expensive!! Big beams!! Adding footings to support them.
New plan for garage,( No beam) Run this by the engineer.
Ignore the over hang for now.r
Cut new rafters one peice to fit to the peak and to wall, push the up to the peak and lift the lower end, once lifted bolt a ledger to the wall under the ends to support them. Add collar ties about a third from the top.
I wouldn't worrry about an uneven floor, you would just try to keep them close while you take them up.
If the floor is questionable, lay down peices of 2x12 Or?? to spread the load first.
I know you want to get this done, but it shouldn't be done to fast , I would just build temp walls under each section for now while a plan is developed.


----------



## buffalo

2 garages , I guess we will call it a garage , and a shed. The garage itself has no issues. I'm worried the shed could pull it down. I have strip most off the bottom of the rafters. That is a foam insulation board(not drywall) and particle board. There was no cercern with the garage , I just filmed it for the big picture I suppose.only the floor in the shed area is cracked , and was before the storm. In all honesty , I'd just abandon the shed before I spend money on it. But It would would cost 300$ to sister the rafters plus temp bracing , I'm ok with that for now.then have the PPE calculate a beam. That why I figured if I'm going to put the labor into it , go with 2x10  ?

The 24' rafter span includes the overhang. That's why I was thinking two 12' pieces of lumber (to make 24') and a beam in the middle where they meet.( or 2 different length lumbers subtracting the overhang to place the beam in the middle of the actual structure)I looked into it , and the shed is a 2/12 pitch not 3/12 as I initially said. It is mated to the garage wich is (just measured) 6.5/12.


----------



## nealtw

OK that makes more sense. 
So if you spend all the money doing this you still have a crappey roof that is to low slope for shingles and hundred year storms happening every other year, I don't like it. I don't think it is money and time well spent.
I would build the temp walls maybe two in the shed and spend time looking after the house.
The shed roof should be replaced with trusses that sit on the wall and extend the roof to the peak of the garage, with out adding weight to the garage roof.
I can't find a picture of it.


----------



## buffalo

I'm willing to spend the money  on the crappy roof , lol. If I can sister and beam it for a few hundred , it beats redoing a new roof structure. Trusses are not going to happen. But your right , onto the house. I downloaded 2 other videos the other day.

House exterior roof

Interior 2nd floor


----------



## buffalo

I had 2 contractors come over. One was a local guy , who I never heard from again lol. The other was a larger , I'm told reputable company. He obviously couldn't make any structural changes . He gave me an estimate of 34-36 K  to redo the structural as is on the 2nd floor  and reroof  the entire house. That's already double what the insurance company gave me.


So with the help of the PPE +drawings I'm planning on demoing  the entire second floor (except existing outside walls) and building a true 2nd story.

A guy at work just built a nice garage 32x40 footprint . 10' walls with 2x6 , Trusses and plywood cost him about 7K .


----------



## nealtw

If you are going to rebuild the second floor, would you not want to increase the size of the floor joists at the same time?


----------



## oldognewtrick

buffalo said:


> A guy at work just built a nice garage 32x40 footprint . 10' walls with 2x6 , Trusses and plywood cost him about 7K .



You're comparing an apple and an orange for a garage and finished living space. Figure around 10-12K alone just for demo and roofing on a house your size and his estimate isn't as bad as it seems. 

You can always go back to the ins company and ask to revisit the claim. I have customers do it all the time when they miss items to be repaired on their summary sheets. Just because they send you a check doesn't mean that's the end.


----------



## buffalo

nealtw said:


> If you are going to rebuild the second floor, would you not want to increase the size of the floor joists at the same time?



He did a calculation while he was he on that and said I should be good by 20%.


----------



## buffalo

oldognewtrick said:


> You're comparing an apple and an orange for a garage and finished living space. Figure around 10-12K alone just for demo and roofing on a house your size and his estimate isn't as bad as it seems.
> 
> You can always go back to the ins company and ask to revisit the claim. I have customers do it all the time when they miss items to be repaired on their summary sheets. Just because they send you a check doesn't mean that's the end.



Yea , that's what I'm told. Honestly the insurance guy seemed to really get me the most he could. But he couldn't cover the 2nd floor structural because of rot. I'm not sure if I should mess with it or not. He gave me money to Re shingle and Re plywood the entire house and garages. They were long overdo as is. 

I'm not saying it's a bad estimate. I'm just comparing lumber costs , and could easly swing that number if I did it on my own. Obviously alot more has to go into it like drywall , insulation ect.....but I'd have a safe structure over us.


----------



## nealtw

Are you still planning to enlarge the upstairs and maybe move the stairs?
I did find a table that included 2x6 floor joists, I would question 20%
https://www.auroragov.org/cs/groups/public/documents/document/005822.pdf


----------



## buffalo

The 2x6 span is 9'3" wall to wall on a load bearing wall. He did say the living room may need somthing. It's been 2 weeks with no word yet so I just emailed him . Guess I'll have to wait and see.


----------



## nealtw

I have tryed to put myself in your place and think of how I would do it.
The temptation would be as you are thinking leave as much as you can and build from there.
That might be the fastest way to get the roof back on.
But if the floor joist in the rest of the house have to be increased, then what? You could raise the new floor so it is about 7 inches higher so you have a step up into the new rooms.
The engineer would not like you to raise the back walls 7" but you could order trusses with a step in them to fit old and new walls. This might be your best bet.

Just raising the old floor to match the new would demand a replacement set of stairs

The other thing I have been thinking about is the trusses themselves and what design would be best for a beginer to install.

Your house has a gable on the front, to get that again, it will require a gable on the outside edge and 1 or 2 ply girder that spans the space that have the other trusses hung off of it and a valley set to extend the peak back onto the other trusses. Not a big deal but maybe not anything you want to learn when you are triing to get it up fast.
The truss company could make regular looking trusses to fit to widest point and and the move the bearing point for the rest of them to sit on the wall that has the 1 ft setback
The cut back for the front porch would likely just be short trusses with a different roof line in the front.

You want to get the exact measurements of the foundation and interior bearing walls and get that to a truss company for there ideas see what issues that might see.


----------



## buffalo

..........


----------



## buffalo

Sorry , it's upside down.

I want to open the dowstairs  walls up so I have to do some beams. I believe the only spot that needs attention as far as the joist length are the blue doubles in the living room. If I run a beam separating the ding room and kit hen wall , I can extend that beam all the way to the other outside wall and run those joists the opposite way to fill in that small section of l8ving room and stairs. Then I won't need a step up.


I wanted to ask you about Trusses,  do you think I may be better off building the roof? One raising walls though , one Co tractor said he could nail 2x4 on the top of the existing to take it up a bit. You told me a while back the dimensions for a slider door as far as framing , I need to look into that.

I was thinking just a gable gable deal , easy for me to learn.


----------



## nealtw

Anything new should have 2x6 exterior walls.
Which walls do you want to add 2x4s to? Not on the exterior if you are hand framing the roof as rafters push the walls out and you would be creating a bending point!!
We use a threee man crew tro stand trusses that are landed by crane on the walls. 7 hours, two men to sheet the roof one man on the roof one man on the 6 hrs Add fasia to the gables 1 1/2 . ready for roofing in 2 days. That includes drywall backing, catwalks, and tee bracing for the engineer.
Hand framing including schafolding, design for snow load, God only knows
Interior sliding door width x2 plus 2" eg, 30x2 +2 =62" As the finished frame for a slider goes in before drywall,frame the height to fit  the set up you have. It seems they are not all the same.
Exterior sliding glass door is a window and is framed to the size of the window eg 72 by 80 is framed 72x80 and the window will have 1/4" space all around.


----------



## buffalo

Ok I need an opinion on this structural engineer. I had to pay him 350$ for him to come out , which he then was supposed to write up a report for me on what we went over and he saw. Then he told me he would charge 45/hr for CAD , and 85/hr for structural . Seemed pretty reasonable to me , as another guy told me 120/hr. 

I received no report or contact so after 2 weeks I emailed him(thsee were the weeks of Christmas and new years) . 2 days later I leave a message on his phone. 3 weeks and a day to the inspection he finally emails me and says $1500 will get me a full set of drawings. This includes the 2nd story and all the load bearing walls I wanted to adress on the first floor , basically he will come out again and we will go over everything I want to adress. Kinda thought that would happen on the first visit . 

I still haven't received any "report". His deal was $250 for a verbal inspection , 350 with a report. So this coming Tuesday will be a month. He is supposed to write up a proposal for 1500 to finish. I'm wondering how long this will take. 

So I'm thinking the price seems reasonable? What do you think? 

I'm more concerned though , about how long everything takes as far as call backs and this report I still don't have. A friend of a friend is an engineer who will do the hourly rates.


----------



## nealtw

That's a tough one.
I believe if he writes this report he has to send a copy to the city also, he might be afraid the city will condemn the house and you would have to move. Or he might be a crook?
What happens here, the designer draws the plans, that would be you. Then you would take it to the city, after a week or two you get them back and they tell you what they don't like and want an engineers report on that. The engineers do a rough set of plans with little information on them mostly concerning with the areas the city didn't like. Then when the inspections are done the engineer is responsible for the inspection of the things he asked for and the city looks at the rest.
I know you would like to save the floor upstairs but the dickering back and forth over it may not be worth the time and energy and still might not work. I would take your rough set of drawings to the city, make an appointment and let them know you are a home owner that wants to make it right. You might get away with more or less but changing the floor probibly wouldn't cost what the engineer would charge all said and done.
It would be good if you knew a builder or contractor in your area to learn the ins and outs there.


----------



## buffalo

I took my drawings down to the building depth last year and they told me as long as I get a stamp from an engineer I'm good. Right now I think I'm ok with the basic plan goes as far as the town , and being able to do it. 

I'm just concerned the engineer is either taking on way to much work and being so busy may complicate things , or is just a slacker. He Deffinatly knows what he is talking about , I can tell by talking to him.

I just can't keep paying 350 for an interview.


----------



## nealtw

JUst seeing if this works, explanation later


----------



## nealtw

Suggestions anyone.
We are working out how to re-design the main floor for a more open concept the lower floor is supported by an insuffecient beam so we are triing to land bearing points in line with the posts that support that beam. New footings and post may be required to make the lay out work. Once we have that looked after we will be able to replace 90% for the upper floor, because of some silly building practice we will be able to do this well above the existing floor which can be removed later.

After that the plan will be to use a crane to remove old roof and land pre-built walls and the pre-assembled truss sections, all in one day of crane time.
I have never pre-built walls or roof section before, I have no problem with the set up and how to's but there are always pit falls, so anyone with experience that ran into problems, I would like to here from. 
Thoughts?


----------



## nealtw

bump................


----------



## nealtw

scrible...............


----------



## nealtw

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACcDtyMwvyc[/ame]
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/aluminum-line-level-3-inch/967205


----------



## nealtw

buffalo said:


> I'm willing to spend the money  on the crappy roof , lol. If I can sister and beam it for a few hundred , it beats redoing a new roof structure. Trusses are not going to happen. But your right , onto the house. I downloaded 2 other videos the other day.
> 
> House exterior roof
> 
> Interior 2nd floor



Crap!!!!!!!! for some reason I missed this , Wish I had watched sooner. the second floor one won't come up but the other is good.


----------



## nealtw

so now I see the front deck is level with the floor inside and there is a wall out there; good


----------

