# Tips for saving money when hiring an electrician?



## JoeLink (Jul 28, 2014)

I just purchased my first condo, built in 1970, which Im currently in the process of renovating. Im at the point where I need to find an electrician for a list of maintenance and upgrades I'd like to have done. I've had a couple offer to do side work, but the HOA mandates they be licensed and insured (which I'd prefer anyhow!). I don't have a large budget, but I'm not 'cheap', I won't cut corners to save a buck.

Here's the electrical list:


Inspect breaker box, replace if needed (1970 Square D box).
Replace bathroom exhaust fan. Access to attic crawl space.
Install 7 can lights (kitchen, living room, and hall). Access to attic crawl space.
Wire office outlets to their own breaker, if needed.
Install power outlet in closet next to TV. Separate breaker, if needed.
Relocate bedroom power outlet for TV (raise 5 feet, same stud).
Relocate living room power outlet for TV (raise 5 feet, same stud).
Install new power outlet in bedroom closet.
Install new power outlet in office closet.

Here's the low voltage list:


Relocate coax panel to closet next to TV
Install HDMI panel in closet next to TV
Install HDMI panel behind TV

*My Questions*


I've heard the markup on electrical materials is very high, and that I should provide my own. Is this a good idea? Will this piss off my contractor? Are there specific things I should provide, and things I should let him provide?
Since there's quite a bit of work here, I should be able to have the work performed under contract rather than T&M, right? I'd really prefer they stick with the quote, and it seems this is the way to go. Any advice here?
Do most electricians charge for travel time? If so, I should factor their location into my selection process, right?
Should I hire a separate low voltage guy, or have the electrician do the work?
I'm pretty handy, and I have free time I could use to help, if it'd make the job cheaper. Is this an option?
Do you have any sort of ballpark as to what I should expect to pay for this?

Thanks in advance!


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## JoeD (Jul 28, 2014)

Call and get estimates. When you talk to the electrician you you can ask him the questions.


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## beachguy005 (Jul 28, 2014)

I agree with JoeD on this.  The one thing to consider buying, or at least knowing what you want, is the fixtures. Lighting and fan. A contractor will need to know them to figure an install.  Apart from the labor that's going to be your largest expense.
You know what you want done...which is a good thing.  You really can't ballpark any prices because there are lots of variables, especially with a condo.  Access and such.
Just call a few contractors and mention your willingness to help.


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## JoeLink (Jul 28, 2014)

Thanks guys, that's my plan a little later today. I made the post hoping I could get some insight before I talk to the electricians. I'd like to know what to expect, or at least know enough to spot dishonesty (though this is doubtful, I'm calling reputable places). 

I do have attic access and the fan, this one: http://www.homeclick.com/panasonic-...g-mounted-ventilation-fan-light/p-650365.aspx


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## slownsteady (Jul 28, 2014)

Some of that stuff is "side job" kind of work, and if you bring in a licensed guy for the breaker panel stuff afterwards, then you might be okay. But the flipside is that you will have to book two guys, coordinate their schedules, possibly leave walls open, etc. May not be worth it.

Why would replacing the breaker box be your responsibility in a condo??


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## JoeLink (Jul 28, 2014)

slownsteady said:


> Some of that stuff is "side job" kind of work, and if you bring in a licensed guy for the breaker panel stuff afterwards, then you might be okay. But the flipside is that you will have to book two guys, coordinate their schedules, possibly leave walls open, etc. May not be worth it.
> 
> Why would replacing the breaker box be your responsibility in a condo??



I thought about that. Really the HOA only requires the license/insured guy for the attic access. 

The breaker box is my responsibility since it's in my condo. Each unit has a separate breaker box. I'm thinking/hoping the one I have is alright.


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## Wuzzat? (Jul 28, 2014)

JoeLink said:


> I won't cut corners to save a buck.
> 
> 
> [*]Install 7 can lights (kitchen, living room, and hall). Access to attic crawl space.
> ...


For each dollar you spend you should get a dollar's worth of safety or usefulness.  IMHO CBs and GFCIs give you your money's worth, not so for AFCIs.


Using nameplate data or Websites, figure the power draw for these items.  Check against your electrician's calculations for allocating this power draw to existing or new breakers.

IMHO, breakers that never trip in your place due to your habits and furnishings may be tapped into for additional current draws.  
There's something to be said for experience vs. rules.  I lengthened a cord on an iron so it could be plugged into an outlet on a different breaker than the ones customarily used for that room.

80 CFM is enough for a 600 cu. ft. bathroom, like 8' x 8' x 9'.
Thank you for info that is hard to find
"at 1/4" water gauge which is the industry standard for performance measurement for Energy Star, ASHRAE, HVI, and LEED for Homes. "
The hard numbers cancel out some of the abundant BS adjectives in this link. . .


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## JoeLink (Jul 28, 2014)

Thanks, I'll do that.


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## slownsteady (Jul 28, 2014)

never heard of AFCI's before this. (for those also new to this: http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/Sect...695A6D4D0CA66A8DAA37D4F9DEF5E80C89E4004F4B4F7 )

So the first thought that comes to mind is ...if both the gfci and the afci need to be in a circuit, which comes first??


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## Wuzzat? (Jul 28, 2014)

For all pass/fail tests the question of false positives/false negatives comes up.  As I understand it, it is not possible in the universe we inhabit to minimize both at the same time.

Siemen's makes an "Intelli-Arc" device for helping electricians troubleshoot these beasts.  Forget the DIYers.

The NIST did not answer my e-mail asking if they have a standard "good arc" and a standard "bad arc".

The large number of patents on AFCIs makes me think that the false positive/false negative problem is far from being solved.

IMHO, bad connections usually make themselves known without the help of this extremely sophisticated and expensive device.


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## gottodo1 (Aug 5, 2014)

Don't hire one, do it yourself... That's the only advice I can give, but I am an EE so I suppose I'm biased. <-- Punny right?


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## JoeLink (Aug 7, 2014)

gottodo1 said:


> Don't hire one, do it yourself... That's the only advice I can give, but I am an EE so I suppose I'm biased. <-- Punny right?



I've done quite a bit of home electrical work, but some of this stuff is way over my head. Most of what I know was learned while I lived with an EE


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## JoeLink (Aug 7, 2014)

So I got my first quote, lots of great information. The best news is that the electrician saw no reason to replace the Square D breaker box, though a little re-arranging of the breakers is in order. Some of the things in the quote seem high, especially considering there will be no clean up on their part, I'll be fixing and painting the drywall afterward, and the place is completely empty. 

Here's how the quote broke down: 

1. Install an outlet, on a new circuit, directly under the breaker panel in the office. - $225
2. Install a new outlet in the office closet, directly behind a bedroom outlet, on the same circuit. - $175
3. Install a new outlet in the bedroom closet, directly behind a living room outlet, on the same circuit. - $175
4. Install a new outlet in the bedroom, 3 feet above an existing outlet, same circuit. - $200
5. Install a new outlet in the living room closet and eye level on the wall next to the closet, new circuit (this is the only new pull). - $750
6. Install five can lights in the kitchen, four can lights in the living room, and one can light in the hall, wired to existing switches/circuits, with attic access. - $3125 
7. Move CATV jack to living room closet, run HDMI from living room wall to living room closet. - $450  

What do you guys think?

I have a couple more estimates scheduled for the week of 8/18.


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## nealtw (Aug 7, 2014)

A lot of pros, don't like to work with DIY guys but shop around and find a guy that will work with you. So you can do a bunch of stuff that you can and let him finish it off with the technical stuff.
Don't be to hard on the prices he charges, he buys from a wholesaler that gives him credit. The problem is, his wholesale price is simular to retail that you could buy it for anywhere. He is only trying to get paid for his time running around to get it or stock it in his truck. So you can save if you run around and get stuff, but if you get the wrong stuff he will want to get paid while he waits for you to correct any mistakes.


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## nealtw (Aug 7, 2014)

Just saw your last post, what is there that you are afraid of doing your self. There is help here.


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## JoeLink (Aug 7, 2014)

nealtw said:


> Just saw your last post, what is there that you are afraid of doing your self. There is help here.



I appreciate the vote of confidence. I'm sure I can do some of it. The items on the list I can't do myself are 1, 5, and 6. Reasons being, the HOA requires a person be licensed/bonded/insured for attic access, and I don't feel comfortable adding circuits and/or doing work on the breaker box itself. At the rates quoted, I'll very likely be doing the other items myself and putting the $1225 into something else.


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## nealtw (Aug 7, 2014)

Turn off the main breaker and open the side of the box that has the breakers and then tell us what you are afraid of.
If the can lights are included, they are or should be the better ones that are rated for heat to work with insulation up there and you want to make sure they deal with that properly as well as look after vapour barrier.


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## JoeLink (Aug 7, 2014)

nealtw said:


> Turn off the main breaker and open the side of the box that has the breakers and then tell us what you are afraid of.
> If the can lights are included, they are or should be the better ones that are rated for heat to work with insulation up there and you want to make sure they deal with that properly as well as look after vapour barrier.



I'll remove the cover next time I'm there and see what I'm dealing with.


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## gottodo1 (Aug 8, 2014)

The costs ARE high compared to doing it yourself but when you consider his costs they're really not that bad, they're just not DIY costs. . All of those are fairly easy and there's TONs of threads here on each topic. Plus with Neal & Villa around, what could really go wrong ~


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## nealtw (Aug 8, 2014)

gottodo1 said:


> The costs ARE high compared to doing it yourself but when you consider his costs they're really not that bad, they're just not DIY costs. . All of those are fairly easy and there's TONs of threads here on each topic. Plus with Neal & Villa around, what could really go wrong ~



All my advice is garranteed for as long as it take to hit the close button:rofl:


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## JoeLink (Aug 9, 2014)

I removed the panel cover yesterday, here are the photos.


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## JoeLink (Aug 9, 2014)




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## JoeLink (Aug 9, 2014)

Duplicate Post


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## CallMeVilla (Aug 9, 2014)

I think the electrician is buying a new BMW with your checkbook!  Some of this work you can do (I assume) to save major money and the rest might require help.  The guy you got saw dollar signs ... get somebody more realistic.  Maybe a licensed and insured handyman would be acceptable and cost much less?

1. Install an outlet, on a new circuit, directly under the breaker panel in the office. - $225
    Really?  He is going to pull a whole new circuit to your panel, through the walls and repair the wall damage for this?  Doubtful.

2. Install a new outlet in the office closet, directly behind a bedroom outlet, on the same circuit. - $175  Really?  Essentially back-to-back, one old work box cut-in and some simple ROMEX wiring, no wall damage?  

3. Install a new outlet in the bedroom closet, directly behind a living room outlet, on the same circuit. - $175   See #2 above 

4. Install a new outlet in the bedroom, 3 feet above an existing outlet, same circuit. - $200
  This one REALLY frosts me.  All he has to do is cut-in for an old work box, drop his ROMEX 3 feet and make the connections ... for $200?  You have to be kidding!

5. Install a new outlet in the living room closet and eye level on the wall next to the closet, new circuit (this is the only new pull). - $750  So, if this one costs $750, why does #1 only cost $250?  Something wrong here! 

6. Install five can lights in the kitchen, four can lights in the living room, and one can light in the hall, wired to existing switches/circuits, with attic access. - $3125    I hate to seem like a broken record, but this is where he gets the BMW down payment.  With attic access, this is a one-day job at best for a skilled guy.

7. Move CATV jack to living room closet, run HDMI from living room wall to living room closet. - $450    More of the same.  He will identify the CATV line (hope it is CAT 6), split it in the attic, and drop it into the closet into a low volt old work box.  All he needs is the termination tool.  Better run two HDMI sets from the closet to the TV box ... they can fail and running a new one after the fact sucks.  I always run them in pairs to be sure.


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## JoeLink (Aug 10, 2014)

CallMeVilla said:


> I think the electrician is buying a new BMW with your checkbook!  Some of this work you can do (I assume) to save major money and the rest might require help.  The guy you got saw dollar signs ... get somebody more realistic.  Maybe a licensed and insured handyman would be acceptable and cost much less?
> 
> 1. Install an outlet, on a new circuit, directly under the breaker panel in the office. - $225
> Really?  He is going to pull a whole new circuit to your panel, through the walls and repair the wall damage for this?  Doubtful.
> ...



I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post :rofl:

I didn't realize it, but one of my uncles was an electrician apprentice for a while. He volunteered to help out, so I've revised my lists 

Electrician List
1. Inspect breaker box.
2. Install 5 dimmable can lights in kitchen.
3. Install 4 dimmable can lights in living room.
4. Install 1 dimmable can light in hall.
5. Install outlet in living room closet, separate circuit.
6. Re-wire office outlets to separate circuit. 
7. Quote wiring bedroom outlets to light switch.

DIY Electrical List
1. Install outlet above existing bedroom outlet, for bedroom TV.
2. Install outlet in office closet, behind existing outlet.
3. Install outlet in bedroom closet, behind existing outlet.
4. Install PowerBridge, from living room closet to living room wall.

DIY Low Voltage List
1. Install power bridge from living room wall to AV closet. 
2. Install HDMI panel in living room closet and behind living room TV.
3. Relocate CATV jack to living room closet. 

HVAC List
1. Replace bathroom exhaust fan. 
2. Quote adding fan to living room closet. 


I have 4-5 more estimates coming up in the next two weeks, the first being tomorrow. Can't wait to see how they compare.


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## gottodo1 (Aug 11, 2014)

Nothing like Family to help set things on fire, I mean help with electrical work ! I think you're in good shape though. I think your list has gotten bigger since the last posting, it's funny how that happens.


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## JoeLink (Aug 11, 2014)

gottodo1 said:


> Nothing like Family to help set things on fire, I mean help with electrical work ! I think you're in good shape though. I think your list has gotten bigger since the last posting, it's funny how that happens.



Heh I'm sure that's true! 

I've shuffled a few things around, and eliminated much of the low voltage work for now. The more I learn about this stuff, the more I realize much of it I can do myself. 

I just had my second guy come out for an estimate, though I won't know what it is for a day or two. He pretty much said the same things as the first guy as far as how they'd go about doing the work. 

The one thing he mentioned is that it'd be easier for them to punch the new can lights through the ceiling from below, rather than installing them from above. Wouldn't this take longer?


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## JoeLink (Aug 20, 2014)

I received a few more quotes, two of which I feel are much closer to what I was thinking. I'm leaning toward this company. They're not the cheapest, but like I said, price is only one factor in all of this. 

Here's the quote, what do you think? 

*Breaker Panel Improvements: 270.00*
Remove the old circuit breakers from the existing Square D QO style panel located in the bedroom.
Replace with modern circuit breakers for the best circuit protection.
Relocate the two single breakers that are in the mains section of the panel. Install a two pole breaker to
replace it for code compliance.
Electrician: 1X2p20,2X1p15,1X2p503X2p30,1X2p40
Provide tighten and torque of the breakers and grounding/neutral connections within the breaker panel.

*Whole System Surge Suppressor - Recommended Option (QO style with two 15a twins required.): 200.00*
Install a surge suppression device to protect an investment in your electronic equipment and appliances
including computers, DVRs, televisions, LED lighting,
audio equipment, video games, portable device chargers, laundry equipment, heating and air conditioning
systems, kitchen appliances and more.

*Dedicated Circuit For A/V: 190.00*
Install a dedicated 120 volt grounded circuit and a duplex receptacle to serve the upper shelf area of the
small closet in the living room.
As the circuit breaker panel is full, this will require a twin breaker.

*Living Room Recessed LED Lighting: 735.00*
Provide and install four recessed light fixtures (see notes below) to serve the living room.
Provide connections to the existing wall switch location. The wall switch currently serves a duplex wall receptacle.
Replace the wall switch with a white Lutron Maestro dimmer switch.

*Kitchen Recessed LED Lighting: 960.00*
Provide and install three recessed light fixtures (see notes below) to serve the kitchen.
Provide and install two recessed light fixtures (see notes below) to serve the kitchen island.
Disconnect the existing pair of kitchen ceiling light fixtures and prepare the openings for sheetrock repair by others.
Provide connections to the two existing wall switch locations for each of the two groups of recessed lighting.
Replace the wall switches (2) with white Lutron Maestro dimmer switches.

*Hallway Recessed LED Lighting: 170.00*
Remove the existing ceiling light fixture from the central hallway.
Provide and install one recessed light fixture (see notes below) to replace the existing light fixture.
Provide connections to the existing switch location for the new recessed fixture.
The existing white toggle switch will remain at this location.

*Permit: 95.00*
Provide an electrical permit for the scope of work as described.

*Notes:*
"Recessed light fixtures" are 6" diameter. Each with an energy efficient dimmable LED module with regressed lens and white trim ring.
We are careful not to disturb the existing sheetrock and/or plaster. Sometimes those surfaces are disturbed during our work. Repairs are not included.
It is presumed that the attic is clear of obstructions and offers access to the areas required for the installations as described.

*Total: $2620*


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## nealtw (Aug 20, 2014)

The notes on the can lights should include language about heat rating for the insulation that has to be placed over them, I think


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