# Cratering in our Driveway Different from Every other Driveway in Development!



## ajvas1 (Aug 2, 2014)

:help:

We live in a housing development with many townhouses and many driveways.  We purchased new about 6 years ago.  This thread will be based on included pictures I am guessing.  I have two things going on now:

#1.  The cratering of the concrete covers our entire driveway, the path to our door, and the sidewalk at the end of our very very short driveway.  You can see small stones in the craters.  If you go left OR right, none of the houses or driveways have this kind of damage/wearing---Why my concrete and no one else's?

#2.  The proverbial rust stain left from a car AFTER the cratering problem.  I would assume using a power-washer would just chip away more of my driveway, so I suppose I would be looking for more of a chemical solution that would not cause my driveway to deteriorate further.

Pictures show #1-closeup of cratering damage #2. Entire driveway and sidewalk...the cratering is nonexistent on both the left and right of picture. #3. The rust stain discussed (and the deterioration all in one)


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## bryce (Aug 2, 2014)

These are questions to ask your housing attendant. He's there for a reason.


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## JoeD (Aug 2, 2014)

Looks like spalling. Do you use salt on drive and walks in the winter?


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## ajvas1 (Aug 2, 2014)

JoeD said:


> Looks like spalling. Do you use salt on drive and walks in the winter?



That's the thing, I meant to say that we most definitely do NOT salt our driveway.  Any salt would have come from vehicles in winter...you see how it travels ALL the way out to the sidewalk...Its almost like that entire section was poured at once during construction.

Anyway, while we await word from HOA (which will probably just threaten to fine us, not help us), this is not a situation that can be "patched"....the entire driveway would have to be re-poured?

The more immediate concern is the rust staining since we can wait on the concrete, but may get fines for the staining...any suggestions on how to handle the rust?  Thank You for ALL posters...I realize you are taking your own valuable time to write these responses and I do not take that for granted.  BOTH my wife and myself recently lost our jobs, so your advice is truly appreciated.

(One thought: Our driveway seems to be at the focal point of a VERY gradual sloping to our left and right.  When we had large snow melts, a small lake would collect at the foot of our driveway.  Could this salty solution being tracked onto our driveway over and over really be the cause?  I mean there is ZERO spalding/damage on neighbors houses in either direction.)


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## ajvas1 (Aug 2, 2014)

The housing attendant must be the guy we call who is in charge of the development who simply says our warranty is up...not much help there.


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## oldognewtrick (Aug 2, 2014)

Sorry to hear about your loss of jobs, its definitely still tough times no matter what we hear from the media.

What about trying a little CLR in a small section and see if it removes the rust?

Oh, and  to House Repair Talk!


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## CallMeVilla (Aug 2, 2014)

The rust can be removed mechanically using a wire disk in an angle grinder.  Why?  Because you should recoat the driveway.  By grinding the rust off, you remove it economically.  If the spalling is really deep, you can prep the driveway with some RapidSet mortar (dries to 5,000 psi) before recoating.

Here is how it gets done.  HAVE FUN

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxPXvhDhTvE[/ame]


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## ajvas1 (Aug 3, 2014)

Thanks Everyone!


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## nealtw (Aug 4, 2014)

Concrete installed in hot weather and allowed to dry to fast, the surface will not be as hard as it should be.


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## slownsteady (Aug 7, 2014)

Is the driveway considered part of the common property or is it under your ownership? That will determine a lot of what the HOA can say or do.


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## BridgeMan (Aug 8, 2014)

The photos indicate the concrete is experiencing scaling, not spalling.  The former is usually limited to the surface, while spalling goes much deeper and eventually results in complete deterioration.  The OP's scaling looks to be the result of too much chert in the mix, an aggregate which absorbs water and then fractures when freezing conditions occur.


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## slownsteady (Aug 8, 2014)

ajvas1 said:


> ......(One thought: Our driveway seems to be at the focal point of a VERY gradual sloping to our left and right.  When we had large snow melts, a small lake would collect at the foot of our driveway.  Could this salty solution being tracked onto our driveway over and over really be the cause?  I mean there is ZERO spalding/damage on neighbors houses in either direction.)



The OP mentions that puddles form here. Any possibility that the concrete got a good soaking before it had a chance to fully cure? That may be enough of an argument for the HOA to concede on. (although I would take Bridgeman's word otherwise)


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## stadry (Aug 10, 2014)

there's no ' spalling ' in this video whatsoever as bdge says,,, actual true spalling is damage caused by 2 adjoining conc pieces rubbing together & chipping small/large pieces off ( either from traffic loads OR temp changes ),,, what IS illustrated in the video is extreme loss of cementitious paste,,, that's the stuff that holds aggregate in place which makes conc hard among a few other things like low water:cement ratio, proper placementl, & curing practices,,, will agree proper prep is critical to any repr

'course i'm only a jr member & dumb contractor who's done this work professionally for 35yrs so what do i know,,, i've met sullivan, too,,, several times,,, reminds me of the guy on this old house & the other guy who fronts for rebuilding houses - photogenic

perhaps the op's d/w suffered some damage from rain which would've weakened the surface,,, wtr running downhill will often erode conc, too,,, consider a polymer modified o'lay for best results altho, no matter what or who says it, its rarely done well by diy'ers,,, know that's not what many want to hear but, generally, if 1 wants pro results, they must use pro materials, methods, & equipment,,, then again, most diy'ers don't have the experience/knowledge to separate what they hear - some is fact while other stuff is bs - knowing which is which is critical to success,,, its rare that shopping at any apron/vest store will contribute much to successful conc repairs impo unless 1 includes safety glasses & cases of wtr


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## slownsteady (Aug 11, 2014)

turns out that "spalling" (or spall) is a generic term and is not specific to concrete. So I'm not surprised that there is a difference in definitions here.  this is from Wikipedia:
_Spall are flakes of a material that are broken off a larger solid body and can be produced by a variety of mechanisms, including as a result of projectile impact, corrosion, weathering, cavitation, or excessive rolling pressure (as in a ball bearing). Spalling and spallation both describe the process of surface failure in which spall is shed._

A google search will also come up with different reasons and cures for concrete spalling. Even pros can disagree based on what they call things.


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## stadry (Aug 12, 2014)

it does apply to other materials - eg, granite & marble - yet we rarely hear anyone say their countertop is spalled or there's a spall on the living room wall's plaster,,, sometimes conc spalls as the result of d-cracking,,, oftentimes language separates us as in trying to define what my bride' nagzilla, means when she says some things  :rofl:


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## stadry (Aug 12, 2014)

notwithstanding the product sullivan's using, better materials contain dry hybrid-polymers, silicon carbide aggregate, white cement to which is added just water - no primer necessary,,, according to the video, the mtl he's touting isn't recommended for exterior use because it doesn't have any fine aggregate,,, micro is generally used indoor for decorative work,,, having done this work professionally, i can't imagine any pro picking a wire brush & grinder,,, as bdge posted, there's no indication of any spalling however it does appear to exhibit extensive scaling.

i wouldn't choose rapidSet mortar for repairs,,, using a wire disk in an angle grinder MIGHT be fine for small spots,,, otherwise pickling the driveway followed by an ammonia neutralization is the usual method,,, i suspect any pro would do the same who's work is cementitious overlays.,,,  to my knowledge, none of the rqd materials ( gloves & safety glasses excepted ) are avail @ the apron/vest stores but only from specialty supply houses.

typically these materials work best @ 1/8" thickness or slightly less,,, for this particular section, we would've used a broom to apply the 1st coat, a squeegee for the 2nd ( he's using a magic trowel - drywall trade - which also has applications for polymer-mod'd conc's


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## BridgeMan (Aug 12, 2014)

Having made a living in structural evaluation, and inspecting many thousands of deteriorated concrete surfaces, starting in 1967, I've relied on the definition of scaling provided by the Federal Highway Administration's Bridge Inspector's Training Manual:

Scaling: The gradual deterioration of a concrete surface, due to the failure of the cement paste, caused by chemical attack or freeze/thaw cycles.


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## inspectorD (Aug 12, 2014)

http://www.cement.org/docs/default-...defects-causes-prevention-repair.pdf?sfvrsn=4

Scaling:
is the loss of surface mortar exposed to the freeze/thaw cycle. The aggregate is usually clearly exposed and often stands out from the concrete. Scaling is primarily a physical action caused by pressure from water freezing within the concrete.
Spalling:
is a deeper surface defect than scaling, often appearing as circular or oval depressions on the surface or as elongated cavities along joints. Spalls are caused by pressure or expansion within the concrete, bond failure when new and old concrete meet, impact load, fire, or weathering. Improperly installed joints or corroded reinforcing wire can cause spalling.


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## BridgeMan (Aug 13, 2014)

Your link essentially described scaling as I did.  And the OP's pix clearly show good examples of scaling.  Not spalling.

But it still needs to be determined:  Is she skinny, thin, or svelte?


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## stadry (Aug 14, 2014)

most reasonable people have a good understanding of how fed &/or most government agencies perform assigned duties & fulfill their responsibilities - they build empires, expand budgets, have meetings, conduct studies ( often of subjects previously studied ad nauseum ), & obfuscate,,, the personnel often have failing memories & rarely lose their jobs,,, somehow records become ' lost ', or simultaneous hard drives crash inexplicably,,, MORE RARE is the government lout who gets sentenced to prison tho richly deserved but, instead, is allowed to retire or transfer

imo, by now, most have more faith in the private sector where there are more responsibilities AND proportionate consequences,,, but perhaps i degress


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## slownsteady (Aug 14, 2014)

> But it still needs to be determined: Is she skinny, thin, or svelte?



I'm not sure; send her over and I'll evaluate....


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## stadry (Aug 14, 2014)

in my limited experience, scaling causes can usually be laid at the door of too much water in the surface paste,,, when finishing, you'll see finishers using the mason's brush to ' bless ' the mud,,, this adds wtr to the top of the conc making it easier to finish,,, i learnt this from italians but have noticed all nationalities do the same,,, this means either everyone's eyetralian at heart or something else about which i have no idea  :beer:


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## BridgeMan (Aug 14, 2014)

slownsteady said:


> I'm not sure; send her over and I'll evaluate....



If you're serious, I'll check her schedule.  But a warning--she insists on flying first class, so be prepared to pay for a pricey ticket.  And just a cheap room for $300 or so ought to be adequate.


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## BridgeMan (Aug 14, 2014)

stadry said:


> most reasonable people have a good understanding of how fed &/or most government agencies perform assigned duties & fulfill their responsibilities - they build empires, expand budgets, have meetings, conduct studies ( often of subjects previously studied ad nauseum ), & obfuscate,,, the personnel often have failing memories & rarely lose their jobs,,, somehow records become ' lost ', or simultaneous hard drives crash inexplicably,,, MORE RARE is the government lout who gets sentenced to prison tho richly deserved but, instead, is allowed to retire or transfer
> 
> imo, by now, most have more faith in the private sector where there are more responsibilities AND proportionate consequences,,, but perhaps i degress



You're confusing "digressing" with "anti-government ranting."  How you justify working that into a concrete driveway scaling thread is quite a stretch.

And besides--what happened to the truce?


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## nealtw (Aug 14, 2014)

Stadry ; You came close but, how about a full set of instructions and the products to be used. this is a diy site. With the right research the OP may decide to hire a pro but at least he will know something about he is taking about.

Bridgeman. How about some help with the fix and get over the engineership. Write your instructions with product names

........................................................ Put yourselves in the shoes of the OP and go back and read all the posts and see how frustrating that must be. Neal.


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## stadry (Aug 15, 2014)

it appears the stain's shallow because of the scaling - see the white cpot ?  we own rotary deckcrawlers w/carbide teeth so we'd use 1 of those ( aurand ) to remove the scaling,,, IF the surface of the d/w's totally s***, we'd run a walk-behind scarifier ( edco ) over it then overlay the d/w.

tools - bosch bulldog w/1" or 2" brick chisel to remove scaling,,, ' CLR ' for the rust stain,,, acid-wash the d/w w/muriatic 1:8 wtr pickling solution, rinse, then neutralize remaining acid w/1:8 wtr solution out of the std plastic garden watering thingie,,, 3,500psi p/w will clean well - better if you can find a turbo nozzle for it ( faster & more complete cleaning ),,, apron store ' cement-all ' for an overlay product ( we used it for bdge deck jnt reprs 25 yrs ago for va dot & i still drive over them on the way back to upstate ny

we use elitecrete but there are other good materials,,, i'd advise to avoid mtls which have the installer add polymer on-site,,, the just add wtr mtls are MUCH easier to use + they offer less opportunity to f up,,, other'n that, grab a stiff push broom - some use a squeegee to lay down the stuff but i like the broom as 1 can texture in the broom finish while installing the polymer-modified o'lay,,, its a technique we fancy we developed but some other guy out there's done the same & probably wants the credit for himself    so be it

ooops, color - they use white cement in these mixes so you'll need to experiment to find YOUR color- sher-wms sells wtr-bas'd pigments & will  even put it in a NEW can for you,,, find the color grey you want & buy a pint,,, add pigment to mix wtr FIRST then add bagg'd mix,,, you might f up a bog or 2 @ 1st but you'll soon get the idea + its only for the base coat which will be cover'd up,,, sealing conc o'lays is optional as w/any conc work -euclid, meadows, basf, & prosoco are 4 good sources

i'd feel much more optimistic re the op's success IF he stays OUT of the apron store as those jabonies don't know dick about conc  ( apologies to concretemasonry who is a valued contributor to this forum )

probably should incl a disclaimer - my monitor's horrible & all we've got for info is what the h/o sez  [ oy ! ]  nevertheless, good luck !

neal, leave bdge alone & GET OFF MY A**,,, you aren't the boss of me  ;-)  MY boss is still upstairs in bed - sleeping,,, have a nice day !


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