# Under Cabinet Lighting



## cibula11 (Mar 26, 2008)

I am planning my kitchen remodel and have some questions about wiring for under cabinet lighting.  All cabinets and backsplash will be replaced, so access should not be an issue.  
I currently have an outlet inside a base cabinet that is not being used.  (I think it was for an older gas stove, we know have electric).  Could I use that as my power source?  If so, can I just run romex to the needed areas and connect at this power source junction box?  Can I install a switch at the end of this run or do I need to install it close to my power source?  Any help would be well, helpful.


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## handyman (Mar 26, 2008)

since we dont know what the outlet was used for ..i would recomend..running new 14-2 wire to the panel box with its own single pole breaker..handyman


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## Square Eye (Mar 26, 2008)

Use a plug-in test light and determine what else is on that circuit.
If you're doing a remodel, you'd just as well get all of your small appliance circuits GFI protected, if they aren't already. If the receptacle under your counter is already protected and isn't a fully loaded circuit, you can use it. Switch it anywhere you want but installing it close to the source would simplify things. Most kitchen circuits are 20 amp circuits so you will need to use #12 wire. Keep your wiring protected and out of the way. A screw through a wire can cause a whole mess of trouble


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## triple D (Mar 27, 2008)

You definitely want your switch to be before the lights. But you can run wire from plug to switch then back to lights. I usually run a wire for each light from switch box if there's only 3 or 4 lights. It's a little tight in the box, but it's a minor "technicality". This makes life easier in that little area they give you inside the light for wiring. Let us know what you find sharing that circuit though, I don't think the little load of u.c. lights will bother none. Probably only a couple hundred watts your adding? Good luck.....


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## cibula11 (Mar 27, 2008)

Thanks!  I'm sure that I'll have some other questions as I get further into it.   I even thought about using low-voltage wiring, so yes, it won't be much wattage.


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## Parrothead (Mar 27, 2008)

Square Eye said:


> Use a plug-in test light and determine what else is on that circuit.
> If you're doing a remodel, you'd just as well get all of your small appliance circuits GFI protected, if they aren't already. If the receptacle under your counter is already protected and isn't a fully loaded circuit, you can use it. Switch it anywhere you want but installing it close to the source would simplify things. Most kitchen circuits are 20 amp circuits so you will need to use #12 wire. Keep your wiring protected and out of the way. A screw through a wire can cause a whole mess of trouble




You do indeed need to run a couple  20-amp circuits for the countertop receptacles, but you don't want your lighting to be on those circuits. I see no reason why you couldn't use the existing one for the undercabinet lighting, and then add your two (yes, you need two) separate GFCI circuits for the countertops.


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## BimmerJon (Mar 28, 2008)

Parrothead said:


> You do indeed need to run a couple  20-amp circuits for the countertop receptacles, but you don't want your lighting to be on those circuits. I see no reason why you couldn't use the existing one for the undercabinet lighting, and then add your two (yes, you need two) separate GFCI circuits for the countertops.



Parrothead? You wouldnt happen to be member on a BMW board would you?


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## cibula11 (Mar 28, 2008)

I will be keeping all the current receptacles, but just using the one below the cabinets as my source for the undercabinet lighting.


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## speedy petey (Mar 28, 2008)

cibula11 said:


> I will be keeping all the current receptacles, but just using the one below the cabinets as my source for the undercabinet lighting.


As Parrot head so very clearly pointed out, this is NOT code legal, or a good idea.
Find another source for your lights.


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## speedy petey (Mar 28, 2008)

cibula11 said:


> I will be keeping all the current receptacles,


Are you sure you have everything up to current codes as far as receptacles spacing and circuit requirements??? 
A kitchen remodel DOES require this you know.


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## Parrothead (Mar 28, 2008)

BimmerJon said:


> Parrothead? You wouldnt happen to be member on a BMW board would you?




Nope. I post on one of TxBuilders other forums (homebrewtalk), but I use a different name there.


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## triple D (Mar 29, 2008)

You said your going to run low voltage wiring? Will you have a transformer maybe at that plug your talking about? What kind of wire are you planning on running and what size? If they are low voltage lights, the wire sizing is critical. Just a brain fart, always here to help. Good luck....


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## cibula11 (Mar 30, 2008)

speedy petey said:


> Are you sure you have everything up to current codes as far as receptacles spacing and circuit requirements???
> A kitchen remodel DOES require this you know.



The kitchen was remodeled in 89'. We are just replacing the cabinets and countertops. I just figured the unused receptacle would be okay to use for 3 or 4 undercabinet lights.
I don't have any room on my panel to add another circuit and there are no junction boxes in adjacent rooms that I could access. If it becomes too much of an issue I found some low voltage (plug in) that run on dimmer touch pad that I could resort to.


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## triple D (Mar 31, 2008)

If you were going to resort to some plug in style lights, your load would still be on the plugs, right? So if you don't have a bunch of load on that circuit like a micro, refer, or 3 fry daddys and an espresso maker, then you might as well pull power from that plug you spoke of, to a switch, and put up a nicer line of lighting. Sure it is against code, but if you match the wire size, it's as safe as any other wiring in your house. Hell, it might even be a dedicated circuit, we still haven't even heard from you about what is on that circuit.  Many people are probably stirring right now, but when it boils down to it, your safety lies in your installment, proper wire sizing, and breakers. There it is, another opinion from me. Good luck again....


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## cibula11 (Apr 14, 2008)

While I was considering this outlet under a base to use, I realized that there is romex hooked up to a fluorescent light that is sitting on top of my cabinet above the sink.  There is a double switch that powers the garabage disposal and this light (which has not been used).  Is there any way to tie my cabinet lighting onto this switch?  I realize that each time I turn on the switch both the light above the sink and the cabinet lights would come on.

I guess my other question is, would that be weird to have the light come on above the sink with cabinet lights?  If so, is there a way I can use the wire coming out of the wall to power my sink light and my cabinet light.  ( I would assume on seperate switches)


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## Square Eye (Apr 14, 2008)

You can do anything you want to. 
Putting a light circuit on with other lights is what many electricians would opt for in a kitchen.  
BUT 
What else is on this circuit with that light? That would be the determining factor.


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## cibula11 (Apr 14, 2008)

I would assume that is it just the garabage disposal and that light.  It could have other outlets on it, but I would think that all the outlets would be on another circuit because of the proximity of them all.  Is there a good way to test what else is on the circuit since the light is not working?

If this does work, could I install a double switch in place of the single light switch?  One would control the light, one the cabinet lights and then the other single controlling the garabage disposal?

I shut off the breaker (15 amp) and there are 3-4 outlets, garbage disposal, sink light, range hood (will be microwave) and two ceiling lights on this circuit. Do you think 4-5 cabinet lights will be okay?


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## Square Eye (Apr 15, 2008)

It's going to be busy with that microwave. Where are the other receptacles?

Look, I agree with triple D, if you add your lights on this circuit or any other in your kitchen, it won't be much different than using plug-in units. A garbage disposal and a microwave at the same time plus whatever the other receptacles are powering may be a bit excessive but the odds are that most of that stuff won't be on at the same time. I lived in a home where the washing machine, the microwave, the range hood and the toaster were all on the same circuit. Was aggravating at breakfast time lol but the worst thing that ever happened was the breaker tripped. I eventually moved the washing machine circuit to a dedicated breaker/circuit. You should consider adding a circuit or 2 but if you call an electrician in, he may wire the lights to that box, add a duplex switch for the lighting exactly as you have suggested and then tell you to call him back if you have a breaker tripping problem. Existing work is not always dealt with as if it were new, I'm not saying that that makes it right. I'm merely suggesting that you may have to look at this thing practically and make a decision. Is it worth it to you to run a new circuit for the microwave and maybe another for the receptacles? Or, are the appliances and lights on that circuit not going to interfere with each other enough to justify running a new circuit or 2?


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## cibula11 (Apr 15, 2008)

Thanks for the input.  I really don't want to mess with adding a new circuit since there is not really any room available on my panel.  I just thought since a switch and power source existing in this area it would be easier than having to add lights and a switch.  

So, if I do end up putting my cabinet lighting on this switch with the disposal and kitchen light.   Is it as easy as replacing one light switch with a double switch and reconnecting the light and the new cabinet lighting to the other end?


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## Square Eye (Apr 15, 2008)

Should be


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## triple D (Apr 18, 2008)

I can almost guarantee your microwave will not work on this circuit. It will snap the breaker like a dry twig. A micro hood combo will draw at least 1350 watts, and surely calls for a dedicated circuit. Just the micro and the existing lights will probably do it in alone. So you might consider putting micro on counter top, and plugging in the kitchen circuit your fridge is not on. Then you are right on track with switching changes for lights. You could run 14-2 and stub in center under each upper, right up against bottom of cabinet, these could run in a daisy chain, or you could run one for each cabinet back to j-box under counter. Then you could pick from several lights like flourescent or halogen. I'm sure we could find a little room in your panel for that new micro circuit, if you showed us a picture of it. Hey, good luck!


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## cibula11 (Apr 18, 2008)

The other circuit in my kitchen has the fridge and two receptacles.  Anyway that would work for the micro hood?

Is there any way I can replace the vent hood with the over the range micro at all?  I really don't have experience adding a new circuit and I know that when I had some electrical updated they used some tandem breakers to free up space, so I really don't think I have any room.  I already have the micro hood, so if it is between an over the range microwave and adding new cabinet lights I will take the microwave and do plug in lights if necessary.


Okay, I just realized after reading some things that it is common to put a gas stove and vent hood/microhood on the same circuit.  I replaced the gas stove with electric, which freed up the outlet that was used for the gas range.  So, could I just add the microwave on this circuit (what used to be used by the gas range) by extending the wiring to the upper cabinets?


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## speedy petey (Apr 18, 2008)

cibula11 said:


> So, could I just add the microwave on this circuit (what used to be used by the gas range) by extending the wiring to the upper cabinets?


What else is on that circuit?


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## cibula11 (Apr 19, 2008)

I checked what was on the old gas range circuit and I found that there was a couple of receptacles on it as well.  I plugged in the new over the range microwave on this circuit and turned pretty much everthing else on in the kitchen.  I figured the breaker would trip, but it didn't.  The only thing I noticed was when I turned the garabage disposal on, the lights flickered, but even without the micro running, they do that now.  

I know that what is current code is probably not how my house was wired.  The breakers have never tripped and I haven't had any problems with overloading a circuit.  I guess I'm trying to figure out if this is a MAJOR no no, or if it is just not up to current code?


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## triple D (Apr 19, 2008)

A major no no, maybe not, but a code issue? YES, But after all, its just us guys out here, I won't say anything if you don't. If the proposed outlet you spoke of for the micro, is the old gas oven power, and disposal, and a couple of counter top plugs that never get used, and a couple of existing lights; and you tried it and had no problem, and nothing will be plugged in to the other plugs like toaster, skillet, coffee, etc, etc., then I think it would work in theory. Is it right? NO, But probably will work. Definitely scratch u.c. lights off this circuit's list. Good luck!


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## cibula11 (Apr 19, 2008)

triple D said:


> And nothing will be plugged in to the other plugs like toaster, skillet, coffee, ect., ect. than I think it would work in theory. Is it right? NO, But probably will work. Definately scratch u.c. lights of this circuits list. Good luck! Take er easy.....



Occasionally there will be some things plugged in, but obviously not running all at the same time.  I'll get an estimate and see if it is worth it.  I am just noticing as  I learn more about electricity, that most the way my home is done is not "code".  It works perfectly fine and in my opinion is not dangerous.  I just didn't know how this ranked on that scale.  

Do you have any idea what running a circuit would cost me?  I'd say the kitchen is about 25-30 ft away from the panel and the guy I use charges 60-70/per hr. (All cabinets would be removed for easy access)


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## cibula11 (Apr 22, 2008)

If I run a dedicated circuit for my microhood, and I have no more breaker space, can I:  Take any 20 amp breaker and replace with a 20A tandem?  Then run 12-2 or 12-3 wire from the one side of the breaker to the new microhood location and then reconnect whateve it was I took off the old breaker and attach the the new tandem?  Is this correct or am I missing a bunch?  Anything else I need to consider?


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## Square Eye (Apr 22, 2008)

12-2w/g wire with it's neutral connected, yes.
12-3w/g wire in a panel often indicates a shared neutral. Definitely not something you'd want to do with a single pole tandem breaker. 

Anyway, yes, that would give you a dedicated circuit to the microwave. All other general purpose receptacles need to be gfci protected.


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## cibula11 (Apr 22, 2008)

Okay so my neutral bar has all slots filled.  In fact the last contractor doubled up some neutrals.  Can I just add to an existing neutral.  As long as I make sure I securing screw down both neutrals is it doable?  I know probably not code, but doable?


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## Square Eye (Apr 22, 2008)

Kill the main breaker then it's doable.
Sometimes code is in the eye of the local inspector. I would usually buy the larger ground/neutral buss from the manufacturer if I knew I wasn't going to have enough room for my neutrals. But I've seen 2 wires under 1 screw a million times. 

If your panel is a newer bonded type and you can see that the green bonding screw is in place, you may be able to buy a grounding bar and move some of your bare copper ground wires to that, to make room for more neutrals. You must buy the original manufacturer's kit for it to fit properly and be legal though.


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## cibula11 (Apr 22, 2008)

Okay, so upon further inspection (I feel like I find something new each time I look).  I notice that there is a 220V in my basement that is not being used.  The hot wires were capped off to allow for additional space on the panel, but the neutral is still connected.  Since this is not currently hooked up, can I remove and cap the neutral, which would provide the one open space I need for the dedicated circuit (and be legal)?

I'm guessing my panel is not newer, probably 1980's, so I would just double them up I guess If the above isn't going to work.


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## Square Eye (Apr 22, 2008)

No. Never disconnect a neutral even to an unused circuit. UNLESS you disconnect the hot wires from the breaker and fold it all down out of the way or remove it from the panel altogether.

Why don't you set a sub-panel in the basement and branch your new circuits from there? You could use the 240v wire...


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## cibula11 (Apr 23, 2008)

The 220 was already removed from the breaker panel.  It has wire screws on the hot ends.  The only thing remaining is the neutral.  So essentially is is already removed, or at least out of the way.  By removing the neutral I would gain the one needed for my dedicated circuit.  I'm assuming since the hots have been removed from the breaker and the breaker itself is no longer in the panel, I can shut off the main and pull the neutral out of the bar??


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## Square Eye (Apr 23, 2008)

yep 
I'm convinced that you need to do this thing already lol


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## cibula11 (Apr 24, 2008)

Square Eye said:


> yep
> I'm convinced that you need to do this thing already lol




You mean 34 posts is not enough?


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## Square Eye (Apr 24, 2008)

LOL

Speedy Petey could have done it with 2


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## electrical contractor (May 4, 2009)

Code says that it has to be installed to manufacturers specs.  Many manufacturers say that you can double wires on the buss bar.  The only catch is that the wires you double up have to be the same size.  2 12's or 2 14's.  No mixing sizes.

Run a Circut to the Micro while you have the opertunity.

Then have no fear in installing undercouter lights.  Just pick the lights first and wire the lighting based on what you have picked.  You can read up on some under counter lighitng options here. under counter lighting Brands and styles


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