# broken roof truss?



## kskatz (Nov 10, 2012)

Hello, I just bought a house and the porch roof overhang is sagging. there's no post on this corner supporting it. (wasn't designed to be)
Is this a problem caused by damaged or rotten roof truss? If so,.. what's the repair method?
Thanks,


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## notmrjohn (Nov 10, 2012)

The problem is the design. That end of the roof, at least, does not have trusses.
The sag is caused by there being such a long unsupported overhang of rafters beyond the beam.
There does not appear to be any damage to rafters, roof isn't bulging to show a break.  Is there a ceiling in open area? The only way to really check rafters would be to remove it so you could see what's up there.

You  could run a hefty beam from back wall, fastene to post and on out to roof corner. Easier would be to put a post at the corner, and possibly a beam across to stone wall.

But the sag is made more noticeable by that bizarre gutter and downspout arrangement. What's with that U bend? And the slope of gutter is opposite sag of roof, emphasizing it. Is there some reason it drains at the house side?

 I'd reverse the slope of the gutter anyway. Instead of drain pipe use a steel pipe that would also be the supporting post. Or run drain pipe inside box column.

A neghbor of mine has similar but worse eave problem of similar width and overhang, but with truss roof. every five to ten years or so, they rip off fascia and soffit, sister in new rafters and joists. Sag reappears. That roof must be solid rafters by now. For some reason they refuse to put up a post.


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## nealtw (Nov 11, 2012)

The beam between the house and the post should be level, Have you checked it?


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## nealtw (Nov 12, 2012)

I suspect that the footing under that post was not big enough or was not on undisturbed soil and has settled. If that is the case, the beam could be lifted back into place. If then it continued to settle the footing would have to be dug up and re-done properly.


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## CallMeVilla (Nov 13, 2012)

A fixable mess  ...  I would remove the fascia and jack the entire front up to the proper angle, ensuring the front is level.  Remove the existing post and pour a new, deeper footing (accounting for freeze-thaw).  I would add a footing in the bedding in front of the rock wall for a new post.  Next, I would add a horizontal beam spanning the rafters left to right, supported by new posts.  Attaching the rafters to the new beam and replacing the fascia will finish the fix  ...  maybe for a very long time.

Oh, and fix that silly downspout too!


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## JoeD (Nov 13, 2012)

What's deal with the big C bend in the gutter downspout? Why not straight down and why not at the end away from the house?


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## mudmixer (Nov 13, 2012)

kskatz -

If would help if you gave your location to determine the problems the home could have encountered due to the weather and frost, etc.

Are those really trusses extending over the entry area or are they just joists with little continuity back into the home itself? - The adjacent section of the house behind the does not seem to be trussed because of a vaulted ceiling.

The strange drainage pipe on the right of the entry certainly could be responsible for the accumulation of junk in the gutter and the sagging since there was no way for it to drain decently.

It does appear the the outer (left end) of the roof is slightly lower than the rest, but the sagging gutters throws every thing off. that is certainly a large area to collect water and leaves and choke down through a single downspout even if it is straight.

If there is no breaking of the roof members, it may be possible to replace the posts and/or footings and make everything level and drain well.

Dick


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## BridgeMan (Nov 14, 2012)

That overhang looks way too low, such that only very short people are able to walk under it without ducking down.  Have you considered just cutting it back 3 or 4 feet, making it shorter and higher?


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## nealtw (Nov 14, 2012)

I'm still waiting for the OP to put a level under that beem, the post has to be 3" down.


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## BridgeMan (Nov 14, 2012)

We call them "beams" on this side of the border, nealtw.


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## nealtw (Nov 14, 2012)

Yup, where I live the post is the chunk of wood between the post and the footing. The slope of the beam is a result of the post sinking.


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## notmrjohn (Nov 14, 2012)

Beem me oop. Scooty. I've aboot had all the poutine I can stand

katz, we're all intrigued  by that drain spout, please explain. 

And do put a level on the "beem" so neal can relax. The angle of the photo and the gutter slant may be over emphasizing the sag.


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## nealtw (Nov 14, 2012)

No immagination:  the pipe was installed to run down by the window and back out at the bottom, and the last guy that moved the gutter put the pipe up in the wrong order, likely to keep dripping water away from window.


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## notmrjohn (Nov 15, 2012)

So it was originally designed to wash the window every time it rained.

That post may have sunk but I don't think that's the main cause of the sag. There is just too much eave overhang, without trusses or rafter ties (no ceiling joists), the rafters are just not stiff enough. Especially that barge rafter on the end, it only has a partner on one side.  This is a common problem in my neighborhood where many of the houses have truss roofs but a similar long overhang. The houses with a gable at the front have 3 corbels positioned in about the same places as the  beams in this house.  Side and rear gables do not even have the corbels. 

 Even with corbels the rafters, especially the barge rafters without truss support, sag.  Some of them have bowed over the years causing a hump in the roof slope. Some  have sagged in the middle making a dip in slope and a kick at the end, like a ski jump. One of my barge rafters even broke late one night.( Some folks awaken at the crack of dawn, the crack of a rafter will really get you out of bed.)  

 Jacking up the post high enough to cure that sag could  put a hump in the roof, especially if the rafter has bowed. If 'twere me, I'd put a post right out at the corner. A 4X4 or 4" pipe on proper footing would probably do. Or, if ya just don't want a post there, possibly a stiff horizontal beam back to existing post and on back to wall. A hollow corner post could replace that weird down spout. Or use the existing spout with the C and hang a loud wind chime on it to annoy the neighbors.


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## nealtw (Nov 15, 2012)

John: I have seen the curve you are talking about, but I don't see it here. The second photo shows the facia nice and straight. If you look at the second photo at where the shingles are not in a straight line above the gutter. That says to me the sheeting in that area is stressing over a change of plane. Your curve would show slight changes from there to the lower outside corner. 
But I have been wrong before. Hopefully we learn what the fix is.


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## kskatz (Nov 18, 2012)

You guys are not only shedding light on the issue but entertaining as well! .. Here's the deal. I have a contract on this house to buy. It's in a neighborhood of houses costing $300,000. and up. this house needs total remodel but even then is way under priced at $150,000. I'm trying to find out why they are willing to sell so cheap. I was there today and I put a level on the green beam. It's got a pretty good slope to it. Also,.. in line with the beam, just inside the house is a crack in the wall. noted by arrows in the new pictures I'm attaching. Also, it was hard to see in the pictures but there is also a considerable hump in the roof. I drew a line where the hump is on other picture. Also. just on the other side of the wall with the mystery downspout,.. (I have no idea why it's like that) the ceiling has seperated from the top of the wall by about 5/16". at first I thought maybe the slab floor had just sunk and needed mud jacked up but I put an 8' straight edge on the floor and there's no dip or bump and I put a level on it and it's perfectly level. so it has to be the roof bowing up. Is the large green beam a major structure feature to the house and could it be broken inside the wall about where the crack is on the interior? the wall that is seperating from the ceiling is on the other side of where the crack is and runs perpendicular. I'll try to find a picture of it.


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## kskatz (Nov 18, 2012)

might be hard to see but the black line where wall meets ceiling is a gap. the top of the doorway shown is the other side of the first picture with crack in wall depicted by two arrows.


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## kskatz (Nov 18, 2012)

I'm thinking I should back out of this house purchase. looking like bigger/costly structural issues I may not want to deal with.


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## JoeD (Nov 18, 2012)

The post sinking could be the cause of many of those issues. The other end of the beam is tilting up and making all the cracks and humps.


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## notmrjohn (Nov 18, 2012)

"a neighborhood of houses costing $300,000. and up. this house needs total remodel but even then is way under priced at $150,000"  But what are other houses actually *selling* for? Real estate market is still "iffy." 

I agree with joe's diagnoses. I don't think the beam is integral part of main house structure. It probably only extends inside about as far as roof hump. Are there similar beams at other end of house? Is there an attic crawl space so you can see if beams are part of framing?  The "corbels" I was talking of earlier are fake beams, just a "beam end" just long enough inside to fasten to something under roof.  Even if top beam extends across ceiling of that room, it may not extend very far under rest of roof.  

 As joe sez, the tilted beam is pro'lly cause of cracks and other  problems. Except wacky drain pipe and wrongly  sloped gutter draining at wrong end. I don't think your looking at very expensive repair, but crawl around up stairs.


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## BridgeMan (Nov 18, 2012)

It's certainly your call regarding if you think it's not worth the potential hassle.  Based on what I'm seeing, I'd probably buy the place and correct the roof overhang slope issues for less than $1000 or so in materials, then do a major remodel for another $80,000 +/- as my budget and time allowed.  When all is said and done, it would be a property worth close to $300,000--certainly not a bad investment.

One other issue of possible concern to me would be the existing slope of the property towards the house (from the side where the front door is located).  It looks like a lot of runoff from heavy rains could be directed against the foundation.  If there's plenty of natural flow towards the street, then this isn't an issue.  But if there's no place for that water to go, it has the potential to cause problems.


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## kskatz (Nov 18, 2012)

So you dont think the green beam is part of the major structure but more decoration and helping hold up the porch roof?
They are also on the back side of the house. If that is the case, I could slowly jack it up and put a better footing under it and repair the crack in the wall. But,.. what would cause the ceiling to bow above the walls in that area of the house,. under the flat roof? The floor at the bottom of the wall is flat and level with no sign of any sinking.


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## nealtw (Nov 18, 2012)

The wall inside with the crack showing beside the door is a bearing wall and should have a header over the door. For whatever reason they ran the beam long to include the header. As the outside end has gone down the corner of the house is holding all the waite and the beam is teetering up over the door. I wouldn't expect this to be a problem to jack up the beam a little at a time over a few days it would be back in place. I would jump at this house, but I wouldn't change the flat roofs, that would add cost you would never get back. I agree with Bridgeman, the shape of the yard may be a problem.


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## BridgeMan (Nov 20, 2012)

The more I look at your situation and pix, I'm inclined to think the total "green beam" problem and associated wall/ceiling gap inside the house are related, and not a major issue.  Looking at the photo (with your wife/GF in it), the right end of the beam has settled vertically, having gone down several inches or more.  Probably caused by a missing or insufficient footing under the column--super easy to fix.  The left end of the beam, being anchored to the exterior wall of the house, has rotated away from the house and is pulling the wall with it, as the right end deflects vertically.  That's why there's a gap at the ceiling.  If you check the wall for plumb at that location, my money says the wall will be tilted outward at the top.  Another relatively easy fix--simple geometry says that when the column is raised as part of installing a proper footing under it, the beam will rotate back to level, where it began life, and the interior ceiling gap should close up.  You can deal with closing up what little gap may remain by taping/mudding/texturing the corner joint, at the same time you get rid of the popcorn ceiling in that room.

That just leaves the side yard drainage (potential) issue.  Not insurmountable, but something to look into to see if there could be future flooding problems in the house.  If it were me, I'd check the inside of the exterior walls along that side of the house, just above the floor moldings, with a moisture meter.  Any readings substantially higher than 14% or 15% indicate that water has gotten above the slab, and could be causing mold issues inside the walls.  Not a total red flag, but definitely approaching a point where you just might consider walking away from the place.  If you paid for a home inspection, a good inspector using thermal imaging should have caught any moisture/mold-in-the-wall problems.


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## notmrjohn (Nov 25, 2012)

From the amount of slope of the "green beam" shown in the "photo (with your wife/GF in it)", if that was a structural beam the other end would be several feet higher, unless it had actually broken. If it had broken, I think you'd see a lot more damage than those minot cracks. However, if it had broken it would be right about where you drew the line showing the hump in roof in post 16. 

*But* that hump is also right where the end of a short non structural beam would end, if outer end sunk, inner end would lift up right there causing the hump. I do *NOT* think beam broke. But I do think you oughta stick your head up there and take a look.

 They haven't built houses using beams that long and large as structural parts for many years. Except in higher end homes.  Nowadays exposed beam ends are the tacked on corbells like I have. Another style house in my neighbor hood has flatter non gabled roofs with two  exposed beams supporting car port roof. Similar to what you have, the inner beam ends rest on exterior load bearing wall. As neal and bridge and I and I dunno who all has suggested. 

I agree the cost of leveling the beam is gonna be no more than a grand, if that much. And I agree that you should jack it up gradually, I dunno if it would take a few days, but jack a few inches at a time, listen for pops, cracks, other noises, go inside take a look at whats happening to wall, ceiling, cracks , humps etc, B4 jacking more. 

I hadn't paid much attention to that slope, that may explain why gutter drains at wrong end. But not the wacky C, mebee they had a couple of elbows left over and decided to use them just because they were there. A twisted interpretation of "waste not want not."  Could be water running down the slope is what caused footing to sink. Fixing drainage is another  less than a grand repair. A trench, a surface drain or two, hard solid drain pipe to a place lower than house.  Do not use the cheap corrugated pipe, or perferated "french drain" pipe.

Mebbee if they'd just used some bacon when preparing the "green beams" they would be more robust.  When I first read  "Looking at the photo (with your wife/GF in it)"  i was thrown for a loop as loopy as the drain pipe. You rarely see a photo with both wife and GF in it.


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