# my cabin is on leaning cement columns :/



## mrmarbles (Oct 21, 2014)

so, my newly acquired 22x24ft cabin was built on 9 columns of cinder blocks, they go 4 ft into the ground and are filled with cement and rebar, but they're leaning forward (there was a wall of earth pushing the place from behind, which i've since dug back).

I think in the spring I will replace the columns one by one, this time with 2 blocks per row. but I want it to make sure it survives the winter. it's the front 3 supports that worry me. I've put some jack posts behind them temporarily, just to reduce the weight a bit, but I'd like to do more. I'm thinking of making 2 stacked cradles of 6x6 hemlock timbers near the front, supporting a new beam that would run from 1 side to the other, and then put a jack post under each place where the new beam makes contact with the existing beams (see attached diagram -- the jack posts, new beam and hemlock cribs would be the addition i'm thinking of doing). 

does that make sense? the hemlock cradles wouldn't be directly supporting the existing beams, but they would be supporting the new beam. I'm open to suggestions, but it can't be a huge job or involve a team of people.

by the way, don't tell me the place will fall any day, I know it looks bad but it's been like this for years, and with some extra supports it will surely survive until the spring! thanks.


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## nealtw (Oct 21, 2014)

Welcome to the site, congrats on the new house I think. 
Your plan for the cribing I think is good, get that done asap and then look at how best to fix it.


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## bud16415 (Oct 21, 2014)

The only thing I might question is what the winter frost might do. Right now all your support points are below the frost line. If you have a lot of temporary cribbing in tight resting on top of the ground and get an inch of lift from a frost I&#8217;m wondering if it will stress the other supports.

I don&#8217;t know for sure but tossing it out there Neal and some of the pros might have thoughts on that.


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## inspectorD (Oct 21, 2014)

Well, the cribs could lift the structure off the columns, but they would go right back down with it when it settles. The biggest issue is the lean and lack of diagonal support, But with the way these columns are built with block, there is no real way to fix that. I would lean towards a wooded column like a pier post. (old telephone poles) Then attach them at the blocks at ground level with an anchor from Simpson Strongtie. That way you do not have to dig down again and disturb soils. Diagonal bracing is the key, because we see it is still standing straight up...for now. 
just remember to have an exit strategy when your under there.. this is no place to be if your not experienced, or even comfortable being under there.
Good luck.


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## bud16415 (Oct 21, 2014)

Thanks for confirming my fear of the frost lifting the cabin. We don&#8217;t know the climate where it&#8217;s located but around here I would see movement at least a half dozen times thru the winter. Right now those stacked block columns have been in compression forever. I wouldn&#8217;t want to trust what loading and unloading with the lean and set they have might do to them. 

I know the OP feels comfortable with them as historically they have worked but I would really error on the side of caution with that much weight and that much height and the columns built as they were. My fear would be a chain reaction failure. If one of the outer columns fail that weight would pull against the next one in and so on. 

Given the OP wants to make it to spring I would do the cribbing but not the new beam and place 3 stacks of cribbing one under each of the existing beams. I feel that getting a big huge beam in under there would be a lot of work and one slip up with equipment could do damage to something. The cribbing could be put around the jack posts. 

The question to me is do you crib it up tight or just have them under there just in case and held down a half an inch. Come spring the cribbing could then be jacked against as the columns are replaced one by one. The double stack filled and rebar sounds like it&#8217;s a lot better and DIY friendly. 

Oh and I forgot welcome to the site.


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## broadbill (Oct 21, 2014)

Instead of the crib idea (which sounds like alot of labor just to get through this winter), what about using a come-a-long system to pull the cabin back a few inches so it sits right on the piers?  Leave the come-a-long in place for the winter.  

Then in the spring build your temporary cribs _on the outside _ of the foundation so that the cabin's weight is safely supported without you having to work underneath it until they are in place.  Do your work under the cabin (better piers, diagonal bracing...all that has been suggested) and then remove the cribs.


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## nealtw (Oct 21, 2014)

I would make no attempt to pull it back in place, something would break.


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## broadbill (Oct 21, 2014)

nealtw said:


> I would make no attempt to pull it back in place, something would break.



Fair enough...then in that circumstance I wouldn't recommend he work under there at all; and should shore it up soundly from the outside first.


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## bud16415 (Oct 21, 2014)

broadbill said:


> Fair enough...then in that circumstance I wouldn't recommend he work under there at all; and should shore it up soundly from the outside first.


 

 I agree. I understand photography pretty well and know about distortion in photos and such and for me those photos are pretty clearly showing bow and tilt as the new work he has added looks to be all plumb and provides a good reference. I know the OP is only moderately concerned and even went as far as to ask to not be told it could come down at any minute and maybe it wont but I feel the prudent way to look at it as if it could. If not being under it is a concern then likewise not being inside it should be equally a concern. 

The OP did say the problem was caused by the bank moving and pushing the building forward and he has removed the bank in contact. That is most likely a good thing but that could also be a destabilizing factor to my way of thinking as now the whole foundation is a series of parallelograms without any diagonal members in tension to keep things from hinging. 

I wouldnt rule out cables as you suggest but I wouldnt want to do anything that causes movement until I knew things were supported against lateral shifting. 

Looking at this more as the day goes on if there was ever a case to advise someone to get professional help this may just be the one. I know its a cabin and as such calls out for DIY engineering but how many times have I read where someone is questing a wall removal as maybe being load bearing and they are advised to get an engineer to confirm before doing anything.


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## mrmarbles (Oct 21, 2014)

Thanks so much for all the input! I'm located in Quebec, where we get a lot of snow and very cold winters. I hadn't considered the possibility that frost could lift the cribs! Do you think that would happen? If so, at the very least, I should probably not make them too tight, based on this advice. Any significant lift could definitely stress the supports, since they are connected to the beams above them with a metal strap. Also, I guess lifting off the front supports would stress the rear supports.

One thing is that when I dug a few inches into the ground to make a flat surface for my jack posts, I discovered that there is a cement footing of sorts, which runs only from the front column to the middle column on either side of the cottage. This is what my jack posts on those sides are currently resting on (as seen in the attached photo of 1 side). So maybe I should rest my cribs on those (without adding beam running from 1 crib to the other), since that cement will not lift in the frost. It's only about a foot wide though, so the rest of the cribs would still be on the ground.

Also, inspectorD's suggestion of attaching a post to the bottom of the columns seems to me like a very good idea which I hadn't though of. Even if the top of the front columns were to continue to bend forward, there's a good chance that the base would stay in place and therefore keep the wooden post in place. I would probably use a 6x6 post for this. I'm not entirely clear on how I would attach that to the cement pillar though.


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## bud16415 (Oct 21, 2014)

From the little bit of searching I did I see Lally columns are rated around 14,000 lbs. They figure the weight of single story structures between 50 and 200 lbs per sq ft. So let&#8217;s guess in the middle your building is 50,000 lbs. and for safety sake the columns are good for 5000. That&#8217;s saying 1 lally is roughly good for about 1/10 of the weight and you have 9 of the block columns now so you are in the ball park I would say. 

You are very lucky if you found the pads that go down to footer depth I would say. 

Here is an idea I had the Lallys are no better than the blocks stacked up to resist things moving side to side they will carry load but nothing if things try and move. 

What if you connected them both into these footings below and into the beam above and then rigged something to top to bottom and bottom to top with turn buckles in the center. This would carry load and also stop racking in the one direction. Maybe you could do something similar in the other direction also. I&#8217;m thinking maybe something welded top and bottom to the Lally to take a heavy cable or threaded rods.


PS

I still would advise you to talk to a structural expert and run the numbers.



On edit:
If you did a tension set up like that along with the X bracing I mentioned that would be in tension you would also need a beam / brace Lally to Lally across the bottom to act in compression. Reason being is you have no idea how secure those pads are into the earth. You can&#8217;t count on the ground  acting as that member.


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## slownsteady (Oct 21, 2014)

Looking at this last photo, I'm thinking the jack posts are enough - based as they are, on the piers. Trying to do too much could just add to the complexity.

That being said, it also occurred to me that diagonal or lateral bracing could be tied into the uphill side, just snug enough to prevent the bow from increasing. Not sure how exactly to do this though. And this is definitely not a professional opinion.

Edit: I didn't see Bud's last post when I wrote this, but it follows similar lines of thought, somewhat.


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## nealtw (Oct 21, 2014)

Now I agree working under this might be a little dicy. The temp fix for it might better be to digg holes infront out about 12ft to frost depeth and install 6x6 lening back to the housr and bolted to it and put concrete in the hole to hold the post, maybe, still leaves him working in front of it.

I would investigate the pads between the posts, if they are footings or a bridge between posts I would build a block wall between the posts.


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## bud16415 (Oct 21, 2014)

I like the block wall if it runs across. I assumed they were just bases that never got used. 

I wonder if bolting something to the front without tie rods or something running all the way to the back would work. Framing wasn't intended to hold a house sideways. If the bank was what pushed it out in the first place. Anchoring to it long term wouldn't be good. I know Neal said temp though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Home Repair


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## nealtw (Oct 21, 2014)

It could be the hole thing slipping to the lake?????, around here it would be a maybe.


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## mrmarbles (Oct 21, 2014)

You guys are good people, I'm glad I found this forum. About the hill... I think that if it weren't for the pressure that had pushed the house from behind, the cement columns would still be straight. The land in the front hasn't moved, and I don't think the columns under ground have moved. It's just that the house got pushed forward, and it brought the front columns with it, and because they're filled with rebar, they bent instead of collapsing.

Right now, based on InspectorD's suggestion, I'm thinking of putting 2 wooden posts in on either side, resting on the "footing" (after I check that it goes down a few feet into the ground and isn't just a 'bridge') and attached to the cement columns as pictured in the diagram below (brown = wood, grey = cement). The front post will stay held in place by the base of the front cement column, and then the diagonal support post will keep the middle cement column from moving forward. If I had that set up on either side, with jack posts helping out in the centre of the house, I think it could be pretty solid and much less expensive than the cribs.


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## inspectorD (Oct 21, 2014)

This is what you need to do..and it is very easy to do. Crib support the areas you will work on and start to remove columns and use wood. metal columns will rust where the welds are ,and concrete cannot be diagonally braced. You need diagonal bracing or you will have the same issues. 
Here are some pictures,


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## oldognewtrick (Oct 21, 2014)

I fully understand budget restrictions, but don't confuse inexpensive with the cost if catastrophic failure occurs.


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## nealtw (Oct 21, 2014)

I think inspector has it.


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## mrmarbles (Oct 21, 2014)

Inspector, that looks like a good, easy enough, and relatively inexpensive solution. I can see that diagonal bracing is much easier to implement with wooden posts like that. Since my place is only 24 feet wide, I wonder if 9 wooden posts of treated 6x6s would do the job, or if I should put in 2 internal rows instead of 1.

At any rate, I will have to wait until the spring to do that since I think it's getting too cold up here to be pouring cement.


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## nealtw (Oct 21, 2014)

Looking at Inspectors photo, you would just hold the house up with cribbing or some other support and cut your posts just above ground level, drill and install a saddle for the 6x6 posts.


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## inspectorD (Oct 21, 2014)

Yes, just as Neal said... you dont need any poured concrete, just support what you have, remove the block columns that are there, down to a certain point....which may be the top of the footing and attach with a simpson strongtie collar to your new 6x6 posts. 
All of this can be done anytime, just depends on if you like to work in the cold or not. :beer:

Have fun searching what you think will work, http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/?source=topnav


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## bud16415 (Oct 22, 2014)

It&#8217;s hard to offer an opinion with only some of the information at hand. I tend to offer advice based around the uncertainty of the information and the severity of the consequences. In this case all we have to go on is what we see in a few photos and what the OP has shared. No one knows for sure what is under the ground we are told the footings are down 4 foot. That would be good. 
I quite often use the theory of what I can see is my guide to what I can&#8217;t see in terms of quality. Most of the time I find the unseen quality is actually less. 
What we are talking about is a structure that was most likely owner built or handyman built without any engineering done. My clue to this is would anyone approve a column built by stacking 17 blocks in a straight line like that. We are told they are filled and rebar added but what we don&#8217;t know was the rebar put in in pieces and was the fill total. Why were the blocks laid across the grade as opposed to with the grade capturing more of the beam and having a stronger section resisting the grade. All this points out to me I wouldn&#8217;t trust what I don&#8217;t see equally as much. 
Given the quality of engineering or lack of I have to assume the actual footings to be a wheelbarrow full of home mix dumped in a hand dug hole. 
In contrast if you look at the photos inspectorD posted the footings at the corner of the house look to be 3 foot diameter and I&#8217;m sure 4 plus foot deep, or a couple yards each. I agree the diagonal bracing is what gives it great strength. Wood diagonals can both act in tension and compression but in both directions if they are needed they are pulling or pushing against the footing.

I personally wouldn&#8217;t feel good about attaching anything to the first block out of the ground, but if I did I would also look at a lower column to column member at least on any of the columns that had diagonal bracing coming off them. The building being the top member forming a simple truss.


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## nealtw (Oct 22, 2014)

Bud, those are good points. But I have looked at from the other way.
No complaints about major settling so I thought the footing were deep enough and have been carrying the load.
The post have had a lot of stress, so they have to have something of value inside them, and the least damage on them will be where the ground has supported them against the stress.
But that could all change when the post is cut down and you see what is there, as rusty steel will break concrete and would have to be addressed.


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## bud16415 (Oct 22, 2014)

nealtw said:


> Bud, those are good points. But I have looked at from the other way.
> No complaints about major settling so I thought the footing were deep enough and have been carrying the load.
> The post have had a lot of stress, so they have to have something of value inside them, and the least damage on them will be where the ground has supported them against the stress.
> But that could all change when the post is cut down and you see what is there, as rusty steel will break concrete and would have to be addressed.


 

Neal that was kind of my point also I guess. The only thing we know for sure is the footings whatever they are carry the load straight down. If we run members into them at angles like 45 degrees or something we are now expecting that top block to take a great sideways load. If the load wasnt going to be applied then there would be a reason to have them large beams. When you look in those photos and see 6x6 beams running across corner to corner some engineer calculated how much load those could see and then sized those 2 cubic yard footings to take that force. 
The way around that is to supply another way to take that force and put all the load straight down into the footings he has. The bottom beams Im talking about work like a collar tie.


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## slownsteady (Oct 22, 2014)

Add to all this: we know that the top of the hill has moved because the house was a reference point. The OP mentioned that dirt was pushing the building. How can we NOT assume that the lower part of the hill is moving to some degree? Is there any kind of reference point for the footings?


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## mrmarbles (Oct 22, 2014)

slownsteady, the previous owners dug into the hill, and then build the house's rear supports right against the wall of exposed earth created from the dig ... then built a retaining wall that was attached to the building's supports, with earth pressing against the retaining wall. that decision plus the single-block columns were bad ones, to say the least! but that just pushed the rear supports forward, which brought the house and all other supports forward too, at least 6 inches... so the movement of the front columns occurred at the top, while their bases never moved, hence the leaning forward.

as for the rest of the discussion, I'm strongly considering taking the advice to install wooden posts with diagonal braces. this raises a few questions. Can I really just drill into the existing concrete and then insert a post saddle? aren't they usually put into wet cement.. and also, are those really strong enough to support a house, and not just a deck? for example do you think the basic post saddle would have been used in the house photos that Inspector posted, or would it have been a more heavy-duty, deeper-sunk saddle/anchor.

also, keep in mind that the 'footings' are only in place on the sides of the house, and only between the front and middle columns. the rest of the columns are just cement and rebar-filled blocks sunk about 4 ft deep. as for cutting into the existing columns and using their bases as supports for post saddles, do you really think I can cut through the rebar, and then insert a saddle? I guess I could try, but it might be cleaner/stronger to completely remove the post and pour new cement footings... especially since even the bases are leaning a bit. so I'm guessing I will install temporary wooden posts on the existing footings, combined with jack posts in other places, and then in the spring, undertake the larger operation of replacing the columns one by one... thanks for everyone's continued interest.


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## bud16415 (Oct 22, 2014)

Mrmarbles 

In looking at your photos this morning I was thinking 4 to 6 inches of movement also. That same frost movement we were talking about is most likely what pushed the cabin along over time. 

I agree with what you are planning and I think you will have a much more stable building redoing the footings. It is the right way to approach it and it&#8217;s also going to be a big job I think. It will be hard getting digging equipment in there. Do you plan on doing this by hand?  Can you get a concrete truck in close at the top. The trouble doing them one at a time is bringing the truck in many times. 

I don&#8217;t know what type of saddles they were talking about but I also was seeing some heavier iron work holding the posts. 

I hope you stick around and show us the temp work as well as the finished work come spring.


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## mrmarbles (Oct 22, 2014)

I'll definitely post updates some updates!

For replacing the columns one by one, I'm assuming I will just buy a cement mixer rather than a truck. 

do you think, for the temporary solution, that drilling 7 inches into the old cement footings (which some of my jack posts are currently just sitting on) to install one of these is a viable option? http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/canada/rcps.html 
and if so, do you think it would be strong enough to support diagonal braces, which I assume would put greater pressure on the anchor...


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## nealtw (Oct 22, 2014)

If you can prove that that is the footing near the surface and prove that they are deep enough for frost protection, likely 4 ft. from top of dirt to bottom of concrete. If they are not deep enough, you might just raise the dirt level. You can just drill into the top of the footing for the saddle or leave a few blocks and drill into those for the saddle. You want a 3/4 by 10" drill bit in a hammer drill for that and appoxy them in place.
The angled cross braces are bolted High on one post and low on the other, once that is done you have a stiff box and there is no latteral push on the saddle
I don't see a need for more concrete unless I have missed something.
For all of this use, underground rated treated lumber and hot dipped galvinized sadlles, nails and bolts.


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## CallMeVilla (Sep 21, 2015)

Sorry but I think you need a structural engineer to review this project.  The hazard of working under there without adequate shoring is bad enough.  My first choice is sonotubes buried way below frost line to compensate for possible movement and cross bracing to beef up the structure  ....  if the hillside is shifting, there is probably no long term solution anyway.  The pics freak me out.


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