# Quad Outlet in Single Gang Box



## eforti (Feb 2, 2016)

Hello All,
I'm new to this forum and have read through the rules to ensure I'm not spamming people here. I've just launched a new electrical outlet on kickstarter that can double or triple your outlets at the push of a button. 

I'm curious to get peoples input on whether or not you could see using this product in your homes. I'm not going to post a link yet, just upload an image. That way I'm not risking being flagged for spam!

Please see attached and let me know your thoughts on the design.

Regards,
Eric


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## nealtw (Feb 2, 2016)

I like it.........


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## eforti (Feb 2, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I like it.........



Thanks nealtw! Happy to hear it


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## slownsteady (Feb 2, 2016)

Pretty cool. i like the USB slot. How well does it handle wall warts? I imagine they can get in the way when popped opened.


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## eforti (Feb 2, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Pretty cool. i like the USB slot. How well does it handle wall warts? I imagine they can get in the way when popped opened.



Hey slownsteady, 
Thanks for the feedback! I'm attaching an image with several plugs installed to show the space available. The sideways nature of the outlet faces actually provides a bit more space than traditional orientations. Would love to hear your thoughts.

Regards,
Eric Forti


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## slownsteady (Feb 2, 2016)

What size box do you need to install it?


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## bud16415 (Feb 2, 2016)

There are a whole lot of add on adapters some have USB some have 6 outlets etc. the market is flooded with these. All a home owner has to do is plug it in. I personally would rather stick with the cheap outlet and add one of these if I needed more. If it quits working toss it and for $5.39 buy another and never need an electrician. 

I am also an inventor and have a few patents under my belt and it is very difficult to protect yourself in today&#8217;s world from the influx of made in china knockoffs, and to be completive and a price point to get any traction in the market you will also have to build in Asia. 

I like the inventiveness a lot and the way you stopped by for opinions. I have done similar things in the past asking for honest opinions. What I always wanted to hear is the truth not what I wanted to hear. 

If this was the shark tank I would have to wish you well but tell you I&#8217;m out. 

Here is one of the plug in adapter made by none other than GE. 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0009HKEXM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## eforti (Feb 2, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> What size box do you need to install it?



Hey slownsteady,
We've installed it in an 18 cu in box with no issues (box fill calculations support that as well). 

Here's an image with a cutaway box:


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## eforti (Feb 2, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> There are a whole lot of add on adapters some have USB some have 6 outlets etc. the market is flooded with these. All a home owner has to do is plug it in. I personally would rather stick with the cheap outlet and add one of these if I needed more. If it quits working toss it and for $5.39 buy another and never need an electrician.
> 
> I am also an inventor and have a few patents under my belt and it is very difficult to protect yourself in todays world from the influx of made in china knockoffs, and to be completive and a price point to get any traction in the market you will also have to build in Asia.
> 
> ...



Hello bud16415,
You are 100% right that there are cheaper alternatives out there that will meet many peoples needs. I wouldn't blame anyone for using those solutions. Our thought is that this design is an elegant solution to several of the problems people face when they don't have enough outlets that may be worth a bit more. Your input and critiques are definitely appreciated and noted.

Regards,
Eric Forti


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## bud16415 (Feb 2, 2016)

It looks like you are quite a ways beyond concept and have built some hard tooling. I&#8217;m sure your design involves quite a few molded parts and if launched in a big way would require automated assembly to keep the price down. 

I will ask even though I&#8217;m out what your target price point is in the US market? 

That&#8217;s the number along with return that will really sway the masses one way or another. 


Did you print the samples you show or have you set up to mold parts already?


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## nealtw (Feb 2, 2016)

eforti said:


> Hey slownsteady,
> We've installed it in an 18 cu in box with no issues (box fill calculations support that as well).
> 
> Here's an image with a cutaway box:



So you box can be installed in a finished wall, so that would be just near another box already there?


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## eforti (Feb 2, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> It looks like you are quite a ways beyond concept and have built some hard tooling. Im sure your design involves quite a few molded parts and if launched in a big way would require automated assembly to keep the price down.
> 
> I will ask even though Im out what your target price point is in the US market?
> 
> ...


Hello bud16415,
The parts you see are prototypes (but admittedly they look really good). We've gotten quotes for tooling and are nearly ready to take that next step. In regards to price point we're launching after Kickstarter with a retail of $39.99 and $49.99 for the 4 Plug and the 4 Plug w/2 USB's. When compared to the Adorne Pop-Out that only has 3 plugs, which are all hidden in the closed position, we're at a lower pricepoint by $10 and over featured. What are your thoughts on our pricing?

Regards,
Eric Forti


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## eforti (Feb 2, 2016)

nealtw said:


> So you box can be installed in a finished wall, so that would be just near another box already there?



Hey nealtw,
Is your comment about the blue wall box design? It's an Old Work box that's intended for an easy drop into a finished wall, yes. You can run wires from another local box as needed. Our design fits into New Work boxes as well, this is just the one I have a cutaway view of.

Hope this answers your question but if not please let me know.

Regards,
Eric Forti


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## JoeD (Feb 2, 2016)

I think his question was about putting two devices in a double box or one of them in a box with a switch beside it. The cover doesn't look like it would allow that.


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## eforti (Feb 3, 2016)

JoeD said:


> I think his question was about putting two devices in a double box or one of them in a box with a switch beside it. The cover doesn't look like it would allow that.



Thanks for clarifying JoeD,
Our design is not currently setup for more than 1 gang. So it wouldn't work in the double box with another outlet or switch. We could definitely envision design that's compatible with a switch, but having two of theOUTlet next to each other doesn't seem like it would work well based on opening angles. You'd have plugs interfering with each other. 

Sorry for my confusion!

Regards,
Eric Forti


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## Snoonyb (Feb 3, 2016)

Since this is designed to be a permanent installation, instead of a "fireman's friend" that bud was referencing. What is the design load, any agency approvals, ETL or UL?


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## eforti (Feb 3, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Since this is designed to be a permanent installation, instead of a "fireman's friend" that bud was referencing. What is the design load, any agency approvals, ETL or UL?



Hello Snoonyb,
Our initial launch product is a 15A design, but we have already designed a 20A version for launch after Kickstarter as well. We will be submitting to cULus so that we've covered in the U.S. and Canada. 

Regards,
Eric Forti


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## bud16415 (Feb 3, 2016)

eforti said:


> Hello bud16415,
> The parts you see are prototypes (but admittedly they look really good). We've gotten quotes for tooling and are nearly ready to take that next step. In regards to price point we're launching after Kickstarter with a retail of $39.99 and $49.99 for the 4 Plug and the 4 Plug w/2 USB's. When compared to the Adorne Pop-Out that only has 3 plugs, which are all hidden in the closed position, we're at a lower pricepoint by $10 and over featured. What are your thoughts on our pricing?
> 
> Regards,
> Eric Forti



Your price point is reasonable and if your cost of manufacturing to you is down in the $10 to $15 range you could make a go of it depending on finding a high end new construction market. I still dont see someone with a dual outlet needing a quad removing the outlet they have and installing a new flip out unit in its place when for 1/8 the cost they could remove the cover plate screw of the one they have without even killing the power and plugging in and securing an external 6 outlet unit with just the cover plate screw. So for me if it came with the house I would use it, but if I was building new and it was any place I saw a possible need for more outlets in advance I would just put in a double to start. 
Im a basic kind of guy and the guy that stands in front of the peanut butter section at the grocery store for ten minutes thinking about what jar to buy. Im extremely a DIY person and would love to install one of your units even though I would most likely not buy one. I have two sisters and one brother in law that if they saw your device in a good on floor demo display setting would absolutely love it and the elegant design, and buy it as Im sure they would all have a couple locations that it would help them out with. Unfortunately none of them would be able to install it on their own and when they found out an electrician would likely charge 100 bucks to drive over and do it for them I would get the call. Floor space in any of the big retail stores is a factor and your design needs a demo display IMO to sell it in volume like that or people will walk right past it on a shelf in a box. A normal outlet can be anyplace in a store as you go in with the purpose of buying it no salesmanship required. There is an online opportunity and the internet is great for posting video and such to help in marketing. The drawback is like the link I posted above on Amazon and that is where you would have to be is as soon as I find your product Amazon posts below (People that looked at this also looked at this) and you are linked to the 5 buck simpler to install solution. Builders of upscale homes dont shop on Amazon they go thru massive supply houses and by 1000 outlets at a crack and thats the market I see you needing to be in along with wal-mart , lowes, HD etc. 

People that buy these wont be the guy that needs to plug 3 things in behind his end table. They will be the person that wants a clean look in their office or kitchen but finds they are running out of outlets above a counter where it would be simple to pop out another outlet or the USB. I have one that plugs in and has 2 USB ports and it gets used all the time on the kitchen counter for charging phones. A lot of people that buy power strips and these plug expanders are renters and college kids. Apartments are old houses or cheaply made places with minimal outlets, dorm rooms are places built in 1960 that thought the only outlet a kid would need is for a desk lamp. In both cases no one will be rewiring. 

One of the drawbacks of most of these firemans friends as (Snoonyb called them unfairly I might add) is they dont work with split outlets where half is controlled by a switch. I dont know if yours has a method to do that? 

I didnt even know about the Adorne pop out but just watched their little vid. They are addressing exactly the market I described above, and their whole thing is looks not utility. The premise is in some visible locations an outlet is viewed as old looking and ugly but a necessity. They show both locations someone might want to hide an outlet with a fancy modern looking clean appliance looking thing. Mounted into a highly visible stone backsplash in a kitchen counter and that location where you always plug in the sweeper that is easy to get to but sticks out like a sore thumb. They have come up with a million ways to make an attractive faceplate but you always have that ugly plastic outlet poking out with the 6 black holes. They are selling the clean look is all they have going for them.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 3, 2016)

eforti said:


> Hello Snoonyb,
> Our initial launch product is a 15A design, but we have already designed a 20A version for launch after Kickstarter as well. We will be submitting to cULus so that we've covered in the U.S. and Canada.
> 
> Regards,
> Eric Forti



You have a long road ahead of you in obtaining "agency" approvals.

I still prefer a plug strip which has its own safety measures built in, so until you have a protection method that can isolate the device from the circuit in the event of an overload, I'd be out.

Fireman's friend was a term assigned by fire officials, who by the way, are also the senior building officials.


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## bud16415 (Feb 3, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> You have a long road ahead of you in obtaining "agency" approvals.
> 
> I still prefer a plug strip which has its own safety measures built in, so until you have a protection method that can isolate the device from the circuit in the event of an overload, I'd be out.
> 
> Fireman's friend was a term assigned by fire officials, who by the way, are also the senior building officials.



The only real problem in the days of old with fuses were they all screwed into the same base. People would stick a couple Firemans friends into and outlet and then build an octopus of cords and blow a fuse. So the fix was go down to the basement and pull the 15a and stick in a 20a fuse if that blew keep going higher. That and if you couldnt find a fuse just pop a penny in the hole and screw the blown fuse back in.  It really wasnt the firemans friend that caused the fire it was the too big of fuse. With breakers thats a lot harder to do. And no matter how many cords you run off an outlet you hit 15a and you are done. 

You bring up a good point though using something like this in the kitchen or anyplace that requires GFIC you will still need something up stream.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 3, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> The only real problem in the days of old with fuses were they all screwed into the same base. People would stick a couple Firemans friends into and outlet and then build an octopus of cords and blow a fuse. So the fix was go down to the basement and pull the 15a and stick in a 20a fuse if that blew keep going higher. That and if you couldnt find a fuse just pop a penny in the hole and screw the blown fuse back in.  It really wasnt the firemans friend that caused the fire it was the too big of fuse. With breakers thats a lot harder to do. And no matter how many cords you run off an outlet you hit 15a and you are done.
> 
> You bring up a good point though using something like this in the kitchen or anyplace that requires GFIC you will still need something up stream.



The predominance of failures were from to many 16 and 18ga extension cords being run over by furniture.


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## beachguy005 (Feb 3, 2016)

My issue on it is in having that many plugs into any receptacle on the wall, always looks sloppy.  Irrespective of the design of the device.  One cord from a plug strip, if you need more outlets, looks neater.
None of the "agencies" approve anything.  They "list" them as meeting or not meeting whatever standards are required for the particular device.  Something is UL or CSA listed...not UL or CSA approved.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 3, 2016)

beachguy005 said:


> My issue on it is in having that many plugs into any receptacle on the wall, always looks sloppy.  Irrespective of the design of the device.  One cord from a plug strip, if you need more outlets, looks neater.
> None of the "agencies" approve anything.  They "list" them as meeting or not meeting whatever standards are required for the particular device.  Something is UL or CSA listed...not UL or CSA approved.



Would the NEC or the LADBS or the ICC qualify as an agency, without whose approval, it doesn't happen?


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## havasu (Feb 3, 2016)

With all the bending, does it cause a lot of stress on the solid wire terminals, or did I miss where this was covered?


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## beachguy005 (Feb 4, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Would the NEC or the LADBS or the ICC qualify as an agency, without whose approval, it doesn't happen?



   As I said....they don't approve anything.  You can buy tons of products that have no UL listings. I can build, sell and even buy a widget without any UL, CSA or any other testing certification lab label.


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## eforti (Feb 4, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Your price point is reasonable and if your cost of manufacturing to you is down in the $10 to $15 range you could make a go of it depending on finding a high end new construction market. I still dont see someone with a dual outlet needing a quad removing the outlet they have and installing a new flip out unit in its place when for 1/8 the cost they could remove the cover plate screw of the one they have without even killing the power and plugging in and securing an external 6 outlet unit with just the cover plate screw. So for me if it came with the house I would use it, but if I was building new and it was any place I saw a possible need for more outlets in advance I would just put in a double to start.
> Im a basic kind of guy and the guy that stands in front of the peanut butter section at the grocery store for ten minutes thinking about what jar to buy. Im extremely a DIY person and would love to install one of your units even though I would most likely not buy one. I have two sisters and one brother in law that if they saw your device in a good on floor demo display setting would absolutely love it and the elegant design, and buy it as Im sure they would all have a couple locations that it would help them out with. Unfortunately none of them would be able to install it on their own and when they found out an electrician would likely charge 100 bucks to drive over and do it for them I would get the call. Floor space in any of the big retail stores is a factor and your design needs a demo display IMO to sell it in volume like that or people will walk right past it on a shelf in a box. A normal outlet can be anyplace in a store as you go in with the purpose of buying it no salesmanship required. There is an online opportunity and the internet is great for posting video and such to help in marketing. The drawback is like the link I posted above on Amazon and that is where you would have to be is as soon as I find your product Amazon posts below (People that looked at this also looked at this) and you are linked to the 5 buck simpler to install solution. Builders of upscale homes dont shop on Amazon they go thru massive supply houses and by 1000 outlets at a crack and thats the market I see you needing to be in along with wal-mart , lowes, HD etc.
> 
> People that buy these wont be the guy that needs to plug 3 things in behind his end table. They will be the person that wants a clean look in their office or kitchen but finds they are running out of outlets above a counter where it would be simple to pop out another outlet or the USB. I have one that plugs in and has 2 USB ports and it gets used all the time on the kitchen counter for charging phones. A lot of people that buy power strips and these plug expanders are renters and college kids. Apartments are old houses or cheaply made places with minimal outlets, dorm rooms are places built in 1960 that thought the only outlet a kid would need is for a desk lamp. In both cases no one will be rewiring.
> ...



Hey bud16415,
Thanks for all the feedback! I very much understand the points you're making around preference for something cheaper and easier. The comment you made about needing an electrician I guess depends on the individual installing them. If they can install a duplex outlet, they'd definitely be able to install this product. It's just as easy if not easier based on our markings to help with color codes, etc...After our Kickstarter campaign we will definitely be engaging with the big distribution houses (some have already be in touch with us) throughout the U.S. and Canada as they drive great volume. We've also talked with Amazon about getting a feature page as a startup because they provide great support to startups now. 

Again, thank you for the feedback because all of it helps us craft our message, design the product, and answer more questions!

Regards,
Eric Forti


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## eforti (Feb 4, 2016)

havasu said:


> With all the bending, does it cause a lot of stress on the solid wire terminals, or did I miss where this was covered?



Hey havasu,
The wires you attach to our sub-housing never move. That's a stationary part. Inside the housing we have a unique design that avoids bending wires. We're determining if we have IP around the design so we can't share the details of it just yet.

Regards,
Eric Forti


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## bud16415 (Feb 4, 2016)

eforti said:


> Hey bud16415,
> Thanks for all the feedback! I very much understand the points you're making around preference for something cheaper and easier. The comment you made about needing an electrician I guess depends on the individual installing them. If they can install a duplex outlet, they'd definitely be able to install this product. It's just as easy if not easier based on our markings to help with color codes, etc...After our Kickstarter campaign we will definitely be engaging with the big distribution houses (some have already be in touch with us) throughout the U.S. and Canada as they drive great volume. We've also talked with Amazon about getting a feature page as a startup because they provide great support to startups now.
> 
> Again, thank you for the feedback because all of it helps us craft our message, design the product, and answer more questions!
> ...




We all know how easy it is to change an outlet and no one here would think twice about installing your outlet. In my life I have found way more people afraid of home wiring than comfortable with it. The other point I will add is in general I find the kind of people comfortable with doing wiring are in most cases are the bare bones types not high end consumers. Thats not always true. I grew up in the late 50s early 60s when a lot of people were still building their own homes. Building codes were something you kind of glanced at and no one took out a permit to do anything. People put their own tires on and changed their own brakes on their cars. 

What I see today is there are still a good percentage of DIY handy people around and they get called on by friends and family for these simple projects. My sister has a porch light hanging by the wires she went to lowes and bought a replacement and has had it for over a year waiting on someone to change it (as in me) my brother in law always says he will do it and then asks how to go about it. I have explained 10 times turn on the light figure out what breaker runs the light shut it off turn the switch off undo two wire nuts save the bulb and throw out the broken fixture connect the two wires and and screw the fixture back up. I get asked do I need gloves? How do I know the power is really off? Maybe I shouldnt answer Oh you will know if its on! and yes I will eventually put it up for her. There is normally someone around to install one. 

Now what happens when someone opens up the old outlet and pull it out only to find 4 wires connected to the old switch and another few in the back pigtailed together with wire nuts and the old steel work box is only 2 deep? I get a call can you help me install a new outlet and I say sure. I go over and take a look and its in a tiled back splash over a kitchen counter. 

I know thats the extreme situation but everyone here will tell you some combination of the above is pretty common. 

A old guy called me a couple weeks ago wanting to put in a GFCI and said he was trying but kept tripping the breaker. I figured I better help before he burned down the house. I got over here and the box was full of wires. After figuring the mess out and that I could indeed install the GFCI and I mention this story because they also take up a lot of room in a box. He had a regular outlet in the kitchen and thought after 50 years he should be up to code. I wanted to suggest something other than the outlet but he had it and I thought I could get it all in the box. I ended up trimming every wire a little shorter than I would like and reforming the wires in the back of the box to make room for it all and just barely got it all back in the box. I was there for a good hour just messing around with one outlet. 

They are all not simple. New construction deep boxes no problem. 

Builders will keep costs down on New construction and I have seen million dollar homes around here with the cheap 49 cent outlets in the walls. To upgrade to a $50 outlet is going to have to be an upgrade brought up from the buyer or designer just like all upgrades. 

Please know Im not trying to be critical and I wish you the very best with this endeavor. These points I make are exactly the things I would want to hear or need to hear if I was in your position. Once you get on Amazon the user reviews will start to pop up and internet shoppers do read them. You will get lots that say great product was a snap to install and we use and love it all the time. And you will get the ones saying check your Jbox first to make sure it will fit mine didnt or I got it only to find out it wouldnt fit in beside my other outlet. Or worse mine wouldnt fit so I bought the $6 plug in USB outlet. 

The key to a successful product launch is knowing in advance what might happen.


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## bud16415 (Feb 4, 2016)

eforti said:


> Hello Snoonyb,
> Our initial launch product is a 15A design, but we have already designed a 20A version for launch after Kickstarter as well. We will be submitting to cULus so that we've covered in the U.S. and Canada.
> 
> Regards,
> Eric Forti



Just an additional thought why not just make one product with the 20a rating? I wouldnt think the price point would be much different to build and you could cut your inventory in half as well as tooling.


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## slownsteady (Feb 4, 2016)

Eric: Make sure you have strong springs (or whatever) and a sturdy clip to hold it shut. Nothing pisses me off more than a swinging part that won't stay put.


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## bud16415 (Feb 4, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Eric:  Nothing pisses me off more than a swinging part that won't stay put.



 I used to have that problem too. :rofl:


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## bud16415 (Feb 4, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Eric: Make sure you have strong springs (or whatever) and a sturdy clip to hold it shut. Nothing pisses me off more than a swinging part that won't stay put.



On a more serious note we do cycle test every product we build. Picture the old film you used to see in grade school where a machine was opening and slamming a car door a million times we still do that. The trend now is with computers and computer animation life cycle testing along with strength testing can be done on models inside the computer (virtual testing) Thats why all these consumer products only last a short time and swinging parts wont stay put.  There is a trend to rush into the market place and skip these steps and you end up with these product recalls that sink companies. The stuff from China they just dont care if it works a week a year or a day.

Go back to my thread about can openers from last year. It is if people expect stuff to fail and we mindlessly toss it and buy another just like it. This product is a bit higher up the list of things we expect to last for 30 years or more. And your advice about life testing is a very good point.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 5, 2016)

beachguy005 said:


> As I said....they don't approve anything.  You can buy tons of products that have no UL listings. I can build, sell and even buy a widget without any UL, CSA or any other testing certification lab label.



So this approval requirement, by this agency does not exist?

http://ladbs.org/LADBSWeb/LADBS_Forms/InformationBulletins/IB-P-EC2014-013ElectEquipApprvlReqs.pdf


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## beachguy005 (Feb 5, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> So this approval requirement, by this agency does not exist?
> 
> http://ladbs.org/LADBSWeb/LADBS_Forms/InformationBulletins/IB-P-EC2014-013ElectEquipApprvlReqs.pdf



  Really?  LA building codes?  What any code approves, be it NEC or local building codes, has nothing to do with manufacturing a product. They only allow or disallow it's use. Look at most residential or commercial project specs and there will usually be a clause that all products will meet UL, CSA or some other recognized testing lab. It's done as an assurance the products will meet certain standards.  There are times when an Engineer or Architect for a project will get a non listed product approved through the building codes, usually because it's a custom build for a specific application. Those rules govern the use or installation, not the manufacture or sale. You could buy hand made sockets from China, wire from Somalia and plugs from Elbonia and collect tree branches from your back yard.  Use all of those parts to build rustic artisan table lamps to sell to your neighborhood rubes.   It wouldn't have any listed parts and it wouldn't have any testing labs listing as a table lamp, but that doesn't mean it can't be built, sold or purchased. Code, such as you noted above, would prevent it from being used in areas governed by those codes, but not from being built, sold or purchased. Go to any crafts fair in the country and people sell non listed products all the time.


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## nealtw (Feb 5, 2016)

All those bits and pieces coming from China are approved UL or CSA if we buy appliances across the border that are UL approved we still have to get the CSA approved or the insurance company says they are not covered.


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## beachguy005 (Feb 5, 2016)

nealtw said:


> All those bits and pieces coming from China are approved UL or CSA if we buy appliances across the border that are UL approved we still have to get the CSA approved or the insurance company says they are not covered.



 There are parts brought into this country from China that are not UL listed.  There is no law that says only UL listed products are to be imported into the US. Even if you buy UL listed cable, UL listed cord caps and plugs and bring them to your shop to make extension cords, those extension cords would not be UL listed. If you were going to be selling them as extension cords your lawyer or insurance carrier would probably insist that you get a UL listing on them to protect your company from product liability.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 5, 2016)

beachguy005 said:


> Really?  LA building codes?  What any code approves, be it NEC or local building codes, has nothing to do with manufacturing a product.



Manufacturing is not the contention, however this is; *"None of the "agencies" approve anything." *

Every city, county and state, IE., agency, has the right to "allow or disallow", IE., approve the use of any product manufactured, to be installed in any residential or commercial construction, within their jurisdiction.



beachguy005 said:


> They only allow or disallow it's use.



After meeting standards confirmed by specific testing facilities, and satisfying an agency approval process.



beachguy005 said:


> Look at most residential or commercial project specs and there will usually be a clause that all products will meet UL, CSA or some other recognized testing lab. It's done as an assurance the products will meet certain standards.



However, they cannot be installed unless they have attained the governing agencys approval.

In an effort to attain a level of legitimacy, in the building mfg. industry, having these agency approvals is critical to a products success.

He has along road ahead.

After all, this does not appear to be the latest who-zi-whats-it.

As a general rule, "kickstarter" is a method of attaining funding, for underfunded projects, and investors need to do their due diligence.


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## beachguy005 (Feb 5, 2016)

So, you've morphed the point from whether the testing labs approve anything, which they don't, to now talking about local authorities enforcing codes, which they do.
The reality is that none of my points even referenced building codes or inspectors.  Regardless of how you want to convolute it, the fact still remains that UL and CSA or any other testing labs don't approve for use.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 5, 2016)

beachguy005 said:


> So, you've morphed the point from whether the testing labs approve anything, which they don't,



The reality is, that I've morphed nothing, nor have I convoluted anything and the plain and simple fact is, that it is the business of UL, ETL and CSA to either *"approve or disapprove"* products submitted for testing to receive their *"approval"* for inclusion in their *"listing,"* as performing as submitted.



beachguy005 said:


> to now talking about local authorities enforcing codes, which they do.



Which has always been, and remains, my contention that without those agency approvals, it doesn't happen.

The confusion arrose when you assumed the I meant UL ,ETL, and CSA were the "Agencies" I was referencing too, when it was the governing agencies.


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## beachguy005 (Feb 5, 2016)

Given that you said..."What is the design load, any agency approvals, ETL or UL?".  It's hard to believe that your context of "agency" meant all or any local, state, regional or federal code enforcement departments.  
Irrespective of that, I have never implied that I was referring to them.  I have clearly been talking strictly about testing labs.
While you seem to still believe that even UL has some type of use approval authority, it's my belief that they don't.
If I had a widget that designed to do x, y and z.  A UL listing would only prove under laboratory conditions that the widget does what I say it will do.  If it doesn't, they can't prevent it from being used.  They just don't give it a UL label. Any Government enforcement body could deny use, if the item was even subject to inspection.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 6, 2016)

beachguy005 said:


> Given that you said..."What is the design load, any agency approvals, ETL or UL?".  It's hard to believe that your context of "agency" meant all or any local, state, regional or federal code enforcement departments.



In context, "any agency approvals," are defined by comas, as separate.

The point is, if the intent to establish a level of legitimacy to compete in the bldg. industry as a recognized supplier, UL, ETL and CSA approvals and listing are a prerequisite to agency approvals.

Were the intent be to simply develop a product that would be acquired by another, your reward will be commensurate with the front end progress you have accomplished. 



beachguy005 said:


> Irrespective of that, I have never implied that I was referring to them.  I have clearly been talking strictly about testing labs.



I know and thats why I was more interested in the broader application process, and Its pitfalls.



beachguy005 said:


> While you seem to still believe that even UL has some type of use approval authority, it's my belief that they don't.



You can't even backquote that, because their approvals are a function of their business model and are a prerequisite of a product being listed by them.



beachguy005 said:


> If it doesn't, they can't prevent it from being used.



Except that it cannot be used in a building, because an approved testing labs listing must be included in the application for building use approval.



beachguy005 said:


> They just don't give it a UL label. Any Government enforcement body could deny use, if the item was even subject to inspection.



Every government agency has a listing of all products approved for use, in buildings.


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## slownsteady (Feb 6, 2016)

Are you getting all this, Eric?
Just tell them to stop when you've had enough:rofl::banana::banana::rofl:


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## eforti (Feb 6, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Are you getting all this, Eric?
> Just tell them to stop when you've had enough:rofl::banana::banana::rofl:



haha! Isn't this what forums are all about?!

I've got my two cents but I think I'll keep out of the way on this. What I will say is that my partner and I have been in product development for over 20 years between the two of us and the products we help develop, manufacture, and distribute are all tested by an agency of sorts depending on which country they're being sold into. We're very familiar with the process and feel confident that we'll be able to work with the requirements they set forward effectively. 

Looking forward to more input from you guys! 

Regards,
Eric Forti


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## beachguy005 (Feb 6, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> In context, &quot;any agency approvals,&quot; are defined by comas, as separate.
> 
> The point is, if the intent to establish a level of legitimacy to compete in the bldg. industry as a recognized supplier, UL, ETL and CSA approvals and listing are a prerequisite to agency approvals.
> 
> ...



    You actually believe that the government knows if every piece of equipment in any particular building has been approved for use?    You actually believe that all parts in a building have been listed by a testing agency?  You actually believe that every item used to construct a building is on some master list that gets reviewed and approved before construction? Clearly you are delusional and that's why this argument has become pointless, although I'm sure most have thought it happened a while back.   I spent 30 years in the electrical industry. From Purchasing Agent to working with tools in the field.  As an outside Salesrep to commercial, industrial, oem and contractor accounts. The facts are that companies sell non listed products in the US, that distributors sell those non-listed products, contractors install non-listed products and the &quot;agency&quot; inspectors have no way of knowing if every product used is in fact listed. In fact, it's especially true with a building that's just being maintained.  The company in charge of maintenance for the building has no oversight on what they use for new or replacement parts.   So keep your blinders on and you go right on thinking what you want.  You're more interested in trying to prove your comments are defended and using twisted logic to attempt it.  Say what you want, because I know you need to have the last word, but I'm done commenting on this thread.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 6, 2016)

beachguy005 said:


> Say what you want, because I know you need to have the last word,



Only to clarify some of your presumption and assumptions, which, given your background, displays only a cursory knowledge of the process required in attaining legitimacy in the building industry.



beachguy005 said:


> You actually believe that the government knows if every piece of equipment in any particular building has been approved for use?



If it applies to their responsibility, HEALTH & SAFETY, absolutely.



beachguy005 said:


> You actually believe that all parts in a building have been listed by a testing agency?



AGAIN! As a prerequisite to applying for agency approval, when it applies to HEALTH & SAFETY, absolutely.



beachguy005 said:


> You actually believe that every item used to construct a building is on some master list that gets reviewed and approved before construction?



AGAIN! As a prerequisite to applying for agency approval, when it applies to HEALTH & SAFETY, absolutely.



beachguy005 said:


> Clearly you are delusional and that's why this argument has become pointless, although I'm sure most have thought it happened a while back.



So, it's pointless to enlighten the broader audience about the actual process, the pitfalls and the hoops that need to be jumped thru?



beachguy005 said:


> I spent 30 years in the electrical industry. From Purchasing Agent to working with tools in the field.  As an outside Salesrep to commercial, industrial, oem and contractor accounts. The facts are that companies sell non listed products in the US, that distributors sell those non-listed products, contractors install non-listed products and the &quot;agency&quot; inspectors have no way of knowing if every product used is in fact listed. In fact, it's especially true with a building that's just being maintained.  The company in charge of maintenance for the building has no oversight on what they use for new or replacement parts.   So keep your blinders on and you go right on thinking what you want.



Didn't you mention morphing and contorting?



beachguy005 said:


> You're more interested in trying to prove your comments are defended and using twisted logic to attempt it.



So, even though I've worked both sides of the counter and have presented before ICBO, have slightly more than a cursory knowledge of the process, and have imparted that, here, I'm using twisted logic.



beachguy005 said:


> but I'm done commenting on this thread.



Yes dear.


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## bud16415 (Feb 7, 2016)

Eric

Sooner or later the dust will clear. 

Although I can&#8217;t help you with your funding, I did take a look at your page and it was nicely done. I do hope you got some insightful input from myself and others here that will help with moving forward.

Looking forward to walking thru home depot in a year or so and seeing the theOUTlet display in the center of the electric aisle. 

In closing I will offer a free slogan you can feel free to use if you want. 


&#8220;theOUTlet is popping up everywhere!&#8221;    


Good Luck


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## eforti (Feb 8, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Eric
> 
> Sooner or later the dust will clear.
> 
> ...



bud16415,
You just may see us using that slogan 

Thanks for all the support!

Regards,
Eric Forti


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## nealtw (Feb 8, 2016)

I just thought I would drop by and burst the bubbles.
Getting a patent in one country, some country's or every country, do you have the resources to fight the people that will steal the idea.
The big companies will block your attempt to sell to big box stores and wholesalers. The usual response from the buyer won't be that simple, they will just tell you, " you just don't have enough SKUs"
The bigger companies will just change a few things so that you will have trouble proving it was totally your idea.
If you are lucky we will see you on TV and you will send us two if we pay for the extra shipping and handling.
Roberts win with his suit against Sears is not the norm and it took close to 20 years.
But I do wish you all the luck. Neal


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## bud16415 (Feb 8, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I just thought I would drop by and burst the bubbles.
> Getting a patent in one country, some country's or every country, do you have the resources to fight the people that will steal the idea.
> The big companies will block your attempt to sell to big box stores and wholesalers. The usual response from the buyer won't be that simple, they will just tell you, " you just don't have enough SKUs"
> The bigger companies will just change a few things so that you will have trouble proving it was totally your idea.
> ...



Neal in a patent historically you have a number of claims made. The broader the claims reach into your invention the greater the protection the patent affords you. If anyone infringes on your claim you have the right to sue, and in most cases in the USA it is a process yes but one you will most likely win and receive a very equitable settlement. New patents that are on an item that will most likely be something if someone copied were based in the USA are one thing. Today most things are made overseas and shipped here even with foreign patents if you can afford them are almost impossible to enforce outside the states. There is so much knock off stuff out there it shows up some of the time before the real product. You are better off to patent if you want and just go into business and forget about the rest of the world and do your thing and do it better than anyone else IMO. Leave it up to the market place to figure out whos making the best quality per dollar product because you will almost never make the lowest dollar product in these cheapened up knock offs. 

If your claims work around others with a similar product by slightly changing this or that and the original holder still has his wide claims that doesnt give the new guy the right to make something almost exactly like yours as he is infringing on many of the claims you hold. The ones that end up winning the most are the lawyers. 

I didnt look up Erics patents or the past art of such an invention but having done enough patent search work it is almost the case with products like this there are all kinds of prior art they reference and I would be surprised if there wasnt similar things going back 50 years or more. Pretty much I would search a patent these days just to see what was still current that I might be infringing on and if there is ample expired patents covering what I wanted to build just go for it.


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