# What is the feasibility and cost of flipping this furnace?



## jmr106 (Apr 10, 2016)

The original plan was to flip the whole system, run it length-wise in the hole and hang it from the floor joists.

After heavy research on it, I'm thinking this will be a failure when I get a quote on it on Wednesday. I'm expecting them to say that it will cost as much or more than a new system to do such a thing.

So my other option and question to them is going to be...can they flip the furnace itself and give me that extra 2+ feet of space to elevate the whole machine, while leaving everything where it is? Someone is going to check it on Wednesday. I'd want to elevate it on a bunch of 16" x 16" paver stones. If it could be done, it would be probably 9 or 10 of them on each side stacked next to each other. 

Just wondering if those of you in the HVAC community can chime in on perhaps a cost for something like that. Surely it can't cost as much as moving the whole thing would. I understand that the vertical flow coil would need to be changed out for a horizontal flow coil, which seems to run about $500 or so.


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## mako1 (Apr 11, 2016)

I have to ask. Why do you need to do this? What's the issue with the placement now?


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## slownsteady (Apr 11, 2016)

mako1 said:


> I have to ask. Why do you need to do this? What's the issue with the placement now?


A river runs through it. Here's his 19 page thread explaining how much water gets channeled through his crawlspace: http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=19909

Any improvement in elevation would be helpful. Flipping it on it's side would allow for more room underneath.


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## jmr106 (Apr 12, 2016)

mako1 said:


> I have to ask. Why do you need to do this? What's the issue with the placement now?



Long story short, that block wall that you see is about 3.5+ feet below the outside dirt. The former owners that dug that didn't do anything properly, didn't install proper drains or anything. So that water seeps into the dirt (yet all of the top of the dirt crawlspace itself stays dry), then through the wall and runs across the floor of that hole in mass quantities.


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## jmr106 (Apr 15, 2016)

A little update...

I had a couple of HVAC people come out on Wednesday morning for a spring inspection just to check the unit itself, as part of the service plan checks. I purposefully waited for that visit so that they couldn't charge anything for the call. He did state that flipping the whole unit itself would cost as much or more than an entirely new system. This was the same company that installed it in 2012. He also said, "Why did they put it down in the hole? Why didn't they hang it when they installed it? That is what they should have done."

He looked at the top air handler where all of the ducts connect and said that there is only about 3" max between it and the floor joists, so that wouldn't be worth it to try to elevate it up that much and would be a waste of time and money. Plus, 3" is nothing. I thought that the upflow coil itself might be a vertical only and may need to be replaced with a horizontal flow coil. He said that it is a multi-flow and could be turned with no problem. The furnace...he at first said that the furnace isn't a horizontal furnace. Yet in my photo, the sticker on the inside of the furnace shows clearances for horizontal and vertical furnace installation codes and rules with inches shown for each size of furnace. Then when I asked him again later if the whole furnace needed to be changed out for a horizontal (since he told my earlier that it was a vertical), he seemed to think that it could be flipped horizontal and the side with the big return on it would need to have that hole covered. Then they'd have to make another hole in the furnace and do some modifications. 

So we're unsure on the furnace's ability to go horizontal. Or maybe he just didn't realize that it was horizontally capable when he first looked at it and later determined somehow that it could, which is why he answered differently. Other than the mods on the furnace and all ducts being changed for new ones (6 ducts plus the one larger return hose that goes just about straight up above the machine to the hallway), that seemed to be all that he was convinced was needed. He couldn't quote a price without talking to the installation manager. Any approximate estimates given that work? 

He said he took some photos, got the model numbers and was going to go back and sit down and talk to his installation manager about what the best thing to do would be. I'm hoping that they'll consider that this was technically their fault for not realizing this to begin with and - if the bill is larger - give some type of discount on the labor. The old system flooded and was replaced. The old was installed by another company long years ago. It wasn't on blocks then, but that 1 foot elevation is doing nothing and it nearly flooded with the new one before I got a second pump down there. He did mention that the ducts would need to be run again due to various lengths and such, and that the unit itself may need to move a few inches in a particular direction. I told him my idea of elevating it on cement pavers like the single one that they have underneath the styrofoam blocks supporting the system currently. He replied with, "Well, they've got it on one already."  I told him that I wanted to elevate it up on a lot of them and he seemed okay with that. He told me that if the furnace was flipped, that it would be "about chest high"...I can't see that happening, but it looks like it would be maybe around the top of the bricks (maybe 3 to 3.5 feet) if the furnace was flipped horizontal. I wish it could be raised that high. 

However, that will be a bit useless for the water heater. Even if they can raise it that high for the system, the smallest vertical natural gas water heater that I could find was 46". It is about 7' from the hole floor to the joists. Considering 8" from the floor joist (not sure what code is in my state) for safety and code, I'd still only end up with 30" that I could elevate the water heater. I even looked at the 30-something gallon water heaters. Anything less than a 30's probably wouldn't work very well, I'd imagine. Currently a 40 gallon. It isn't that we use a lot of hot water or anything. Maybe a 10 minute moderately warm shower (low flow showerhead) and the kitchen and bathroom sink. That's all that we use hot water for. Any suggestions on that? If all went well with the system, then the water heater height would be the only determining factor of how much I could fill in the hole with gravel. Granted, 2.5 feet is most of the way up to the wall. The deepest parts (not counting the sump hole itself) can't be over 3.5 feet at most up to the top of the wall. Plus, I might want to leave that extra foot anyway...for changing air filters in the system and such.

Haven't heard from him yet. I presume that they're working on it, but will try to call them seem and see if they came up with anything.


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## ohmy (Apr 15, 2016)

Furnaces in crawlspaces are tough. Not only are they hard to get to when you need to replace the filter or maintain them, but they leak and if there is any air gaps in the plenum the unit will pull nasty air in from the crawspace. 

 I just did a rental house rehab with this exact problem and ended up install a package unit outside. This eliminated the need to go in the crawsplace to maintain the system, stopped the musty smell, and hopefully will extend the life of the unit if there is a flood.


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## jmr106 (Apr 15, 2016)

ohmy said:


> Furnaces in crawlspaces are tough. Not only are they hard to get to when you need to replace the filter or maintain them, but they leak and if there is any air gaps in the plenum the unit will pull nasty air in from the crawspace.
> 
> I just did a rental house rehab with this exact problem and ended up install a package unit outside. This eliminated the need to go in the crawsplace to maintain the system, stopped the musty smell, and hopefully will extend the life of the unit if there is a flood.



They were asked about an outside unit before the new one was put in. They weren't fond of having to punch a huge hole through the house foundation to run all of the air duct pipes all over the place, since all vents are floor vents. The cost may have been triple or quadruple the cost of a regular system. It won't be in the crawlspace per se, even if the floor is elevated only halfway. When you open the crawlspace door and get through the actual door, it is about 2.5 feet tall in the few feet of space between the door and stepping down into the hole. So even if I filled the hole 3/4 of the way, there would be a good 3' to 3.5' to get over there by foot by just bending down to avoid the floor joists.  

It is about 7-8 feet at most inside of the basement door currently, so there is no crawlspace to actually crawl through, even if I filled it in most of the way. I can easily bend down and stand on my feet while slowly walking over on my feet, even in the area just inside of the basement door before you step down into the hole. There isn't really a smell issue.


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## nealtw (Apr 15, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> I have some ideas but need some info before I say things that might prove to be dumb ideas.:rofl:
> Can you get some photos of the duct work above the furnace?
> Can you measure from the top right corner of the furnace to the floor joist and to the wall on the right.  And from that spot on the wall to the floor joists.
> 
> ...


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## nealtw (Apr 15, 2016)

If the water tank was set in a big water proof box like an industrial tool box  and the fill went around it. this on is 24x24x45, it would displace 15 cubic feet of water 800- lbs
40 tank full of water  800+ lbs 
That would give you another 24" of height and be big enough to get down to the front of the tank although tight.


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## jmr106 (Apr 19, 2016)

The quote on flipping the furnace is $2,500 to $2,800. I'm going to consider that to not be worth it and switch to another plan.

There is a large cement block under the styrofoam blocks. It was the base for the system before this (the one that flooded). I've been to various home improvement stores. They don't sell these large cement blocks. I haven't measured it, but it is way larger than any of the 16" x 16" blocks and pavers that I saw at the home improvement stores. If I had to guess, that may be 30" x 30".  Where would the former HVAC company have gotten this from? It looks like another 3 or possibly 4 of them might fit underneath. Why do the companies not use these? Is it because they feel that the  moisture might wick up the cement?  In the same way, that 400+ pound  water heater in the back cannot be elevated on some little styrofoam  blocks. So I'm a bit curious about whether or not cement blocks are a bad idea and what should be used for these applications.

I could still put crushed gravel on the floor, elevate the water heater, put in a proper sump basin (I may have to dig that spot out a little deeper for a new basin), etc. Flipping that furnace just seems like too much trouble and cost.

Any thoughts on what could be used to elevate it as-is in place of those blocks, and what might be similarly suitable for a water heater without worry of water wicking up it? Would it really wick up multiple blocks together? 

The smallest water heater that I've found (still a 40 gallon) is 46" tall. Curiously, I noticed that a lot of the 30 gallon ones were actually 50 inches, while many 40 gallon ones were in the upper 40's. I would have thought it would have been the reverse. The larger the water heater, the taller it is. Less gallons would theoretically not be as tall.


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## nealtw (Apr 19, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I have some ideas but need some info before I say things that might prove to be dumb ideas.:rofl:
> Can you get some photos of the duct work above the furnace?
> Can you measure from the top right corner of the furnace to the floor joist and to the wall on the right.  And from that spot on the wall to the floor joists.
> 
> ...


........................


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## nealtw (Apr 19, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> The quote on flipping the furnace is $2,500 to $2,800. I'm going to consider that to not be worth it and switch to another plan.
> 
> There is a large cement block under the styrofoam blocks. It was the base for the system before this (the one that flooded). I've been to various home improvement stores. They don't sell these large cement blocks. I haven't measured it, but it is way larger than any of the 16" x 16" blocks and pavers that I saw at the home improvement stores. If I had to guess, that may be 30" x 30".  Where would the former HVAC company have gotten this from? It looks like another 3 or possibly 4 of them might fit underneath. Why do the companies not use these? Is it because they feel that the  moisture might wick up the cement?  In the same way, that 400+ pound  water heater in the back cannot be elevated on some little styrofoam  blocks. So I'm a bit curious about whether or not cement blocks are a bad idea and what should be used for these applications.
> 
> ...



There quote for a full change to the system. I am seeing a much easier solution .

If you knock down a couple blocks to the right the furnace will lay on it's side the round duct set up will still work, the chimney is still close and a connection to the main duct can be made with a ninety and  You need to change a few parts around inside the unit to make it lay down. re hook gas line.
Sounds like one day and a ninety.


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## jmr106 (Apr 20, 2016)

nealtw said:


> There quote for a full change to the system. I am seeing a much easier solution .
> 
> If you knock down a couple blocks to the right the furnace will lay on it's side the round duct set up will still work, the chimney is still close and a connection to the main duct can be made with a ninety and  You need to change a few parts around inside the unit to make it lay down. re hook gas line.
> Sounds like one day and a ninety.



Any idea who might do such a thing for a more appropriate price compared to the big companies? I expected them to charge a considerable amount for moving stuff around and such. It just seems like they want almost the price of a new unit for doing very little without moving it much at all. 

I'll have to get down there sometime soon to get some measurements/pics. Haven't been down there lately.


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## nealtw (Apr 20, 2016)

The first time I wanted to move a furnace I made sketches and took measurement and went and found the people that make the ducts and stuff locally. They helped me with what I needed and found a guy that was new in the trade but knew more than I.  We had it moved in an hour and I had a gas fitter hook up the gas. All pretty cheap but that was a long time ago too. I would put an add on Craig's list and see if you can find someone that works more reasonable.


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## buffalo (Apr 20, 2016)

Those prices seem a bit high to me. But that's how those company's make thier money. It's hard to say without seeing it all but my guess is 300$ materials assuming you can spin that furnace on its side without disconnecting the copper line sets that tie into your coil. 

So lets assume the furnace is hung horizontal. A few black pipe nipples and fitting to retie in the gas. If your lucky the electric has enough slack and you don't need anything. Aa little bit of 4" round stove pipe to Re vent it . Your return duct is a giant flex bomb , easy. What about your supply runs? Are they all flexes coming off your pmenuim?


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## jmr106 (Apr 20, 2016)

What are my chances of finding a legit HVAC worker that works on the side without their company knowing? I was tempted to ask the guy what "he" would charge for it, but he had an assistant with him and some may also fear that you'd tell their company and get them fired I guess. I know that they are charging what the company wants, but they likely get like $20-25 per hour as a company employee. So part of me feels that someone on the side would happily take xxx hundreds of dollars cash to do it. The guy wanted to help me, but his install manager seems like a sales driven jerk. Of course, business is business.

Should I look for an independent contractor and get an estimate?


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## nealtw (Apr 20, 2016)

buffalo said:


> Those prices seem a bit high to me. But that's how those company's make thier money. It's hard to say without seeing it all but my guess is 300$ materials assuming you can spin that furnace on its side without disconnecting the copper line sets that tie into your coil.
> 
> So lets assume the furnace is hung horizontal. A few black pipe nipples and fitting to retie in the gas. If your lucky the electric has enough slack and you don't need anything. Aa little bit of 4" round stove pipe to Re vent it . Your return duct is a giant flex bomb , easy. What about your supply runs? Are they all flexes coming off your pmenuim?



My thing was to leave the plenuim where it is and just swing the furnace bottom to the right to sit on the wall even if that meant knocking down the blocks on level. With a 90 to join the furnace to the plenuim the furnace hole don't have to be re cut or filled.


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## nealtw (Apr 20, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> What are my chances of finding a legit HVAC worker that works on the side without their company knowing? I was tempted to ask the guy what "he" would charge for it, but he had an assistant with him and some may also fear that you'd tell their company and get them fired I guess. I know that they are charging what the company wants, but they likely get like $20-25 per hour as a company employee. So part of me feels that someone on the side would happily take xxx hundreds of dollars cash to do it. The guy wanted to help me, but his install manager seems like a sales driven jerk. Of course, business is business.
> 
> Should I look for an independent contractor and get an estimate?



Let's see what Larry has to say but I am thinking you could do this yourself with a helper.


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## buffalo (Apr 20, 2016)

nealtw said:


> My thing was to leave the plenuim where it is and just swing the furnace bottom to the right to sit on the wall even if that meant knocking down the blocks on level. With a 90 to join the furnace to the plenuim the furnace hole don't have to be re cut or filled.



I just re read the thread , sorry neal I missed your intent as I just scrolled through the OPS questions without reading everything else. Yes , that's a good idea. Understand , residential sheet metal are some pretty basic parts that fit a nice new build . For an elbow like that your probably talking a custom fitting. But you could put that furnace anywhere and measure back to the plenuim , and create any fitting you need . Me and a helper could do that "work" 8hrs.  But you should set the furnace them measure the fittings you need . 

I would say , on the sidea you could go way cheaper. ASk your friends if they know anyone . Maybe craigslist but I find that sketchy . I'd say  1,000 labor or under , and that's a high estimate. Parts , depends on the guys plan and knowledge . If your handy you could pull it off yourself , just be prepared for setbacks or the learning process. Is it a big deal if it takes you 2 days , a week , a month ?


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## nealtw (Apr 20, 2016)

buffalo said:


> I just re read the thread , sorry neal I missed your intent as I just scrolled through the OPS questions without reading everything else. Yes , that's a good idea. Understand , residential sheet metal are some pretty basic parts that fit a nice new build . For an elbow like that your probably talking a custom fitting. But you could put that furnace anywhere and measure back to the plenuim , and create any fitting you need . Me and a helper could do that "work" 8hrs.  But you should set the furnace them measure the fittings you need .
> 
> I would say , on the sidea you could go way cheaper. ASk your friends if they know anyone . Maybe craigslist but I find that sketchy . I'd say  1,000 labor or under , and that's a high estimate. Parts , depends on the guys plan and knowledge . If your handy you could pull it off yourself , just be prepared for setbacks or the learning process. Is it a big deal if it takes you 2 days , a week , a month ?



Thanks Larry, I did see a video on how to change some parts around inside the furnace.
So the first step would be to find the sheet metal outfit that could build the ninety.


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## jmr106 (Apr 21, 2016)

buffalo said:


> I would say , on the sidea you could go way cheaper. ASk your friends if they know anyone . Maybe craigslist but I find that sketchy . I'd say  1,000 labor or under , and that's a high estimate. Parts , depends on the guys plan and knowledge . If your handy you could pull it off yourself , just be prepared for setbacks or the learning process. Is it a big deal if it takes you 2 days , a week , a month ?



They don't know anyone. I already checked with friends and family. Craigslist...I'd probably get some weirdo that would show up with his tools in a Folgers coffee can and tell me that this doohickee should go here and that doohickee should go over there. I haven't heard the best of things when I have read of crazy news stories about people putting ads up to have work done and getting an unexpected disaster

I thought about checking around trying to find someone who essentially does their own work/has their own business and see what they quote for it. I'd hazard a guess that it won't be anywhere near what the big companies quote.

As for doing it myself...while I'm a handy person and have done a lot of stuff, I don't really feel comfortable doing this particular thing myself (or even with a helper). Plus, I just got good (and bad) news at work tonight stating that our overtime is in fact coming back again next month. So in a way, time is of the essence. I may be called back in to 56 hour weeks next month. I want to at least have the system elevated and water heater changed out and elevated by that time. In that the late spring and early summer storms are on their way, plus June kicks off the 2016 hurricane season. We've had tropical storms come over us before (one caused the flooding of the old system before this one due to power failure). The silly 12v battery backup that was there back then failed. I've since found a replacement battery backup that would power the main pumps with no problem, but I want to get all of this out there just to make sure.


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## buffalo (Apr 21, 2016)

As far as a hot water tank , what about an on demand system. No tank , it's a small box.


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## jmr106 (Apr 21, 2016)

buffalo said:


> As far as a hot water tank , what about an on demand system. No tank , it's a small box.



Talked about it in another thread. The crawlspace work of running the new 3/4" gas line from the meter...it appears that it could well exceed $3,000 for the installation and unit. Likely more. They charge $40-75 per foot for running such a line. That's a lot of feet. It runs about 20-25 feet and then turns and runs another 15 feet at least. It would need to be external tankless on the outside of the house or would require power venting, which could easily shoot to $5K. Just didn't seem worth it.


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## slownsteady (Apr 21, 2016)

No matter who works in that hole for this project, don't do it alone. Moving heavy stuff in a small space requires a spotter - at least.


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## jmr106 (Apr 21, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> No matter who works in that hole for this project, don't do it alone. Moving heavy stuff in a small space requires a spotter - at least.



Probably just going to find someone who has a helper and let them deal with it. I'll look around and see what I can find.


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## nealtw (Apr 22, 2016)

In case you thought I was joking about setting the water tank lower than the new floor level.
http://www.orschelnfarmhome.com/galvanized-sheep-water-tank/ctl16754/cp58377/si6229049/cl1/


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## jmr106 (Apr 23, 2016)

nealtw said:


> In case you thought I was joking about setting the water tank lower than the new floor level.
> http://www.orschelnfarmhome.com/galvanized-sheep-water-tank/ctl16754/cp58377/si6229049/cl1/



I've considered it, but I'd rather just elevate it and be done with it. Size doesn't seem to affect the height (30 gallon or 40) and I think it is because of something to do with a new law that was introduced a while back mandating height requirements. Thinking of just getting a 46" 40 gallon, finding the best thing(s) to elevate it on and keeping it as-is in the corner. The wall there is probably not over 3' at most at the side of the wall near the water heater, since some of the dirt has washed down over the years and the wall. So at 2.5' it would be within half of a foot of the top of the wall and well out of danger of the water. That's assuming they need 8" of room for code space between the top of the water heater and the flue/vent. I don't know what the code requires for that, but it couldn't be over that. I just don't want to stick it on anything that would draw up water and rot the metal. It is generally known that water wicks up cement/concrete, but I can't find any info on it doing that with something like 10 stacked cement blocks/patio brick type deals (and the gravel would simply go around the outside of them and they would sit flat on the floor before gravel is put down). So I'm currently curious how far water could wick up such a thing and what the danger of those cracking over the years might be. I'm iffy on any kind of metallic or wooden stand, since the legs would obviously be among the water under the gravel.

For the furnace, I'm going to check out independent contractors this weekend who do HVAC work and see if I can get some estimates from individuals and not the big companies. The company that installed it and wanted the $2,500-$2,800 for flipping it...we usually keep a year around general maintenance plan on it. It has actually come in handy before when a part shorted out or something went wrong and we didn't pay an arm and a leg for the word/replacement parts because of the plan. Pretty sure that flipping this furnace (even with a licensed contractor) will probably "void" their warranty and/or possibly the recently renewed maintenance plan, so I may get a refund on that if I find out that it does. They don't want to help fix their mistake, so I may never deal with them again anyway.


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## buffalo (Apr 24, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Talked about it in another thread. The crawlspace work of running the new 3/4" gas line from the meter...it appears that it could well exceed $3,000 for the installation and unit. Likely more. They charge $40-75 per foot for running such a line. That's a lot of feet. It runs about 20-25 feet and then turns and runs another 15 feet at least. It would need to be external tankless on the outside of the house or would require power venting, which could easily shoot to $5K. Just didn't seem worth it.



That's crazy. A 10' stick of of 1" inch gas pipe is under 20$. You could run gas tight , a bit more expensive but very fast . It comes in a roll kind of like a hose . Might take an hour . You need to find d some one who isn't trying to hose you. What area are you in?


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## jmr106 (Apr 24, 2016)

Just a little outside of Atlanta, Georgia.


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## nealtw (Apr 24, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> I've considered it, but I'd rather just elevate it and be done with it. Size doesn't seem to affect the height (30 gallon or 40) and I think it is because of something to do with a new law that was introduced a while back mandating height requirements. Thinking of just getting a 46" 40 gallon, finding the best thing(s) to elevate it on and keeping it as-is in the corner. The wall there is probably not over 3' at most at the side of the wall near the water heater, since some of the dirt has washed down over the years and the wall. So at 2.5' it would be within half of a foot of the top of the wall and well out of danger of the water. That's assuming they need 8" of room for code space between the top of the water heater and the flue/vent. I don't know what the code requires for that, but it couldn't be over that. I just don't want to stick it on anything that would draw up water and rot the metal. It is generally known that water wicks up cement/concrete, but I can't find any info on it doing that with something like 10 stacked cement blocks/patio brick type deals (and the gravel would simply go around the outside of them and they would sit flat on the floor before gravel is put down). So I'm currently curious how far water could wick up such a thing and what the danger of those cracking over the years might be. I'm iffy on any kind of metallic or wooden stand, since the legs would obviously be among the water under the gravel.
> 
> For the furnace, I'm going to check out independent contractors this weekend who do HVAC work and see if I can get some estimates from individuals and not the big companies. The company that installed it and wanted the $2,500-$2,800 for flipping it...we usually keep a year around general maintenance plan on it. It has actually come in handy before when a part shorted out or something went wrong and we didn't pay an arm and a leg for the word/replacement parts because of the plan. Pretty sure that flipping this furnace (even with a licensed contractor) will probably "void" their warranty and/or possibly the recently renewed maintenance plan, so I may get a refund on that if I find out that it does. They don't want to help fix their mistake, so I may never deal with them again anyway.



If you are raising the tank, would remove it, do the grave and concrete with plastic vapour barrier under the concrete(6 mill poly) no wicking to worry about


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## jmr106 (Apr 24, 2016)

nealtw said:


> If you are raising the tank, would remove it, do the grave and concrete with plastic vapour barrier under the concrete(6 mill poly) no wicking to worry about



Well, my initial method was going to be to have them change the tank and elevate the new tank with whatever blocks I can use. The moisture barrier could be put over the blocks before the new tank is put on top of the blocks, but I was just going to gravel around the blocks elevating the water heater and furnace so that they will be sitting on the floor and I won't have to worry about any shifting or sinking issues with the gravel and the dirt on the floor. The current plan is just to replace the tank and raise it about 2.5 feet.

I still cannot see it being too feasible just leaving the system where it is and putting gravel around it, like I mentioned a day or two ago. I may end up just having someone qualified flip it for the lowest quote that I can find. Throwing gravel in as-is isn't going to really accomplish what I wanted. It simply won't be deep enough to take the easier way out.

I don't think I have posted a video before of what the actual flow is like down there. 

This was taken after a 30 minute thunderstorm of epic proportions. It was as-is when they had only a single 1/3HP pump down there. I added the 1/2HP (until I could figure out what to do) and temporarily improved the bracing because that pump has massive torque. That is still the newer system in the photo, so you can see the need to elevate it. Granted, it doesn't get anywhere near that bad now that I have added a larger backup pump. It is actually rare for the big pump to come on from what I have seen of it. Note that in this video, the bottom of the water heater was actually underwater probably 4-5 inches. After letting it dry out, it did in fact re-light and has worked for probably 2-3 years now without any fails. That's why there are no issues with replacing it with a new one, because it will need it anyway. 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_EcRF5jk1Q[/ame]


A similar amount of flow with both pumps working:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZLB9YcPcak[/ame]

Those two can keep it in check and it won't even creep out of the top of the hole at all. But this is what I'm fighting and it seems like a vendetta sometimes.

Videos are a bit shaky because you have to stand on about a 2.5 foot tall area on top of the wall to look down into the hole and it can be a bit hard to stabilize.

I don't know, if I can't get any better offers, I may end up biting the bullet and having someone flip it for whatever lowest bid I can get. Note the white stuff on the dirt in the hole after flooding has gone away and it dries. I'm pretty sure that's some kind of white mold.


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## nealtw (Apr 24, 2016)

To stop wicking from the concrete block you just put some in between the tank and the concrete, plastic, tar paper, roof shingle, sill gasket. This is all stuff we use under wood in basements.
When you have quotes on the furnace, are they all looking at changing everything or just laying it over like I suggested with out changing the duct work accept for a new ninety on the main duct.


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## jmr106 (Apr 24, 2016)

nealtw said:


> To stop wicking from the concrete block you just put some in between the tank and the concrete, plastic, tar paper, roof shingle, sill gasket. This is all stuff we use under wood in basements.
> When you have quotes on the furnace, are they all looking at changing everything or just laying it over like I suggested with out changing the duct work accept for a new ninety on the main duct.



I told them that I would like to flip the furnace as-is. They seem to want to change all of the ducts and such, too. All of them seem to have some extra length, so I don't know why they want to do that. It seems that this is looked at as an enormous undertaking to the point of replacing the system from how they describe it. They seem to keep going back to the upper installation for some reason. Is there any reason at all why any of that stuff would have to turn in any direction? Or are they just chasing money by purposefully taking the long way?

I know that the return would need to be changed, but literally all that I need is for the very bottom furnace part itself to be turned. They're talking about flipping the coil, rearranging all of the stuff, etc.


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## nealtw (Apr 24, 2016)

I t is true that adding duct especially corners reduces the efficiency but they should explain the difference and give you both prices. 
This say the tank has to be 12" from wood to the top of the collar on top of the tank. I think.
Page 6
http://www.statewaterheaters.com/lit/im/res-gas/185874-001.pdf


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## jmr106 (Apr 24, 2016)

There was another specific HVAC forum that I asked a similar question on, just to get varied opinions and see if everyone saw it the same way. They edited my post, removed any price numbers that I put in my post, said that they "can't talk about prices there" and then replied with this quote:

"This isn't something you're going to get done for pocket change. It's uninstalling a unit, moving it, modifying it and reinstalling it to work  right. We can not discuss specific prices here. 				They are  going to remove everything (including recovering the refrigerant),  re-arrange all the duct and reinstall everything, then pull a vacuum and  recharge the a/c.  This is a really big job.  whomever does this is going to have to commit a couple guys for a couple days to get through this.  Tough situation. What about the a/c? someone is going to have to recover the refrigerant, cut the line set, lay the coil on it's side and install a baffle (to keep the condensate from being blown down the duct) re connect the lines set, pull a vacuum and recharge the system. Thats going to take at least four to five hours alone. You're getting a good deal at those prices"

I'm getting the impression that a lot of HVAC people are really big (something not nice here) or maybe just trying to defend their trade, I guess?

Why does everyone want to uninstall everything?   That's what is driving me bonkers. I should note that the gas line is on some kind of metallic flex gas hose that they simply ran from the solid (house) gas line to the solid small pipe inside of the furnace itself. I ask to have the furnace part flipped and they want to tear the whole thing out and start over. I don't understand.

If I get another quote or two and keep getting this from the HVAC companies, I just might get a little shady and find some on-the-side HVAC guy who is qualified/licensed, but would do the work for profit for themselves instead of on behalf of a company. Somehow I don't think a couple of people who know what they are doing would turn down even up to $1,500 in cash in their hand to make it work. It isn't necessarily that I don't want to spend the money, it is just that now because I seem to get so many negative reactions from HVAC companies (and various HVAC employees in general from various places online), part of me would rather pay a person for profit instead of a company. I feel that I'm paying for the employees because they're attached to the company, and not just for the job, materials and hourly rate.


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## slownsteady (Apr 25, 2016)

'ya know, if every HVAC guy that you've talked to says it's a big job, maybe there's more to it than we see here. After all, nobody that has responded here is an HVAC pro (afaik). 
Seeing how well the new pump setup is handling the flow ( and this takes us back about 20 pages in the first thread), why not improve the sump and pump setup, clean the trench and put put some sheet drain on the walls to direct the flow downward....and call it a day?


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## nealtw (Apr 25, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> 'ya know, if every HVAC guy that you've talked to says it's a big job, maybe there's more to it than we see here. After all, nobody that has responded here is an HVAC pro (afaik).
> Seeing how well the new pump setup is handling the flow ( and this takes us back about 20 pages in the first thread), why not improve the sump and pump setup, clean the trench and put put some sheet drain on the walls to direct the flow downward....and call it a day?



Just a correction, read Buffalo's remarks.

It is not just putting rocks in a bucket. The river ran through it and maybe never flooded the crawlspace before the basement was dug, so raising the floor and pump should largely decrease the times and the amount of water to be pumped.


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## jmr106 (Apr 27, 2016)

The wall is likely holding the water and backing up in the dirt. I have looked down inside of the cinderblock holes before and saw water at least about halfway up the wall when it was coming a good 2-3 day moderate rain. So the idea of drilling holes through the wall makes me wonder if I just need to pierce the initial outer layer of the cinderblocks or drill through both layers to the dirt on the back of the cinderblock. Still planning to fill those cinderblock holes to the top with gravel to keep the dirt from washing out and plugging any holes that were drilled. If it is getting into the inside of the wall and sitting there, I would think that drilling through the first side of the cinderblocks should solve that and let it drain. I mean, that's just common sense. But if the water level in the wall is a proper indication of the water level behind the dirt, then there is perhaps 1 to 1.5 feet of water sitting behind the wall waiting to drain during a heavy rain system. 

I'm likely going with a 1/3HP as a main pump and setting a 1/2HP as a backup. Both of those combined can average 120+ gallons per minute and 7,200 gallons per hour. I just can't imagine that much water ever coming in within an hour. I doubt that even with holes drilled everywhere that it would ever be a flow rate that high. The faster it comes in, the more immediate and faster it would go out and get pumped away from the house. Maybe some people will say that is backwards to have the smaller pump first, but most sump basins are only 22 gallons at best. That's about the best I can find. I don't want short cycling with a larger pump than normal, but I want the larger pump there if it starts creeping up towards the top of the basin and can't keep up. So, that method seems best. Otherwise, the smaller pump should be able to do just fine on its own in most cases. After all, that 1/3HP pedestal keeps up with most flows on its own at just 35-40 gallons per minute. The PVC discharge pipe will be changed. The 1/2HP requires 2" minimum discharge for its flow rate. The 1/3HP is just 1 1/2". 

The battery backup system could actually handle both pumps at the same time if necessary. It would work the same way and each would only come on when needed, of course.

For what its worth, I don't think the current pedestal pumps are even able to pump at max flow. They share that 1 1/2" PVC and likely drop efficiency by sharing the smaller pipe. Still figuring out the size that the new pipes will need to be and whether both pumps should share a single pipe (like they do now) or each have their own. I do use check valves and such, but the concern of any issue (pipe coming loose even though it shouldn't, etc.) is in the back of my head even after fixing everything. Yet running two different pipes...1 1/2" and a 2" right beside it is a bit awkward. In fact, my mother hates the idea of running two solid pvc pipes side by side out into the yard. There are flex hoses and such, but I've heard of those bursting open. So I'll have to figure that out...


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## nealtw (Apr 27, 2016)

I think your thinking the running the smaller pump is right.I would think the blocks full of water may give you some idea of the normal water level in the dirt, maybe not.


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## slownsteady (Apr 27, 2016)

> It is not just putting rocks in a bucket. The river ran through it and maybe never flooded the crawlspace before the basement was dug, so raising the floor and pump should largely decrease the times and the amount of water to be pumped.


The displaced water has to go somewhere.

JMR: keep in mind that you will increase the flow rate if you put more holes in the blocks. Unless you have a way to calculate that, it is a guessing game whether you have enough pumping power.

And, now that you have an idea of the cost for refitting your units and cleaning up your trench, have you reconsidered the costs of diverting the water before it reaches your crawlspace? You wrote that off as too expensive back at the beginning, but now you have numbers to compare it to.


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## jmr106 (Apr 29, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> The displaced water has to go somewhere.
> 
> JMR: keep in mind that you will increase the flow rate if you put more holes in the blocks. Unless you have a way to calculate that, it is a guessing game whether you have enough pumping power.
> 
> And, now that you have an idea of the cost for refitting your units and cleaning up your trench, have you reconsidered the costs of diverting the water before it reaches your crawlspace? You wrote that off as too expensive back at the beginning, but now you have numbers to compare it to.



It is a guessing game. Hard to know which pumps to get or how much that flow is going to increase. I can't see a feasible way of even calculating that, mainly because I still have no idea if this is a spring/storm drain or intermittent stream that goes crazy when it rains a lot. Or, it could just be rain water from the surrounding ground that comes in when the ground is saturated. 

Yeah, I looked into stuff like the french drains and other deep drains around the outside of the house a long time ago. Waterproofing in general gets up around the cost of a new car. These drains around the perimeter of the house seem to do the same, which is why those were written off. Average cost for a front and back yard regrade averages a $5,000 starting cost for pros. It apparently can double that in a hurry.

Even after days of rain, usually the water flow stops a day or two after it stops raining and the pump quits coming on completely. Should I just not drill into the wall and just put sheet drain up as-is to redirect it? I'm not sure exactly why they made such a huge hole for a little water heater. This was before there was any system at all down there and there was just a floor furnace, so I don't understand the former owner's intent. A 15' long hole for a water heater that's maybe 2' across at best?


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## frodo (Apr 29, 2016)

some units are BOTH horizonital and vertical units.

all you really have to do is move the condensate drip pan [if it has ac]   

under the A coil.

my unit is a upright or horizontal.    it is in the attic

what is brand and model of your unit ?


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## jmr106 (Apr 29, 2016)

frodo said:


> some units are BOTH horizonital and vertical units.
> 
> all you really have to do is move the condensate drip pan [if it has ac]
> 
> ...




Paperwork from the most recent HVAC visits say:

Make: Rudd
Model: 13AJN24A01

While a search for that model will bring up an outside a/c unit by itself, this also apparently comes together as a combo furnace and a/c system under the same model.


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## nealtw (Apr 29, 2016)

frodo said:


> some units are BOTH horizonital and vertical units.
> 
> all you really have to do is move the condensate drip pan [if it has ac]
> 
> ...



It is a furnace that can be flipped, Buffalo figured he could do it with a helper in a day, but all the local pros just want to re-duct the whole house and seem to have a min. charge of $2500 and lots of excuses:hide:.


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## jmr106 (Apr 29, 2016)

nealtw said:


> It is a furnace that can be flipped, Buffalo figured he could do it with a helper in a day, but all the local pros just want to re-duct the whole house and seem to have a min. charge of $2500 and lots of excuses:hide:.



...and the threat of a contractor doing it "improperly" and killing us all with carbon monoxide spreading all over the crawlspace and up into the house. Usually all of them say something along the lines of, "If you want to get some independent person, fine. I can't do it for that amount and anyone who does it for less is cutting corners. I can see ways that you "could" cut corners, but to do it right will require a complete teardown and removal and a new unit installation. Then there's vibration to worry about, whether on top of the wall or hung from the floor."

That's about the general response that I'm getting.


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## nealtw (Apr 29, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> ...and the threat of a contractor doing it "improperly" and killing us all with carbon monoxide spreading all over the crawlspace and up into the house. Usually all of them say something along the lines of, "If you want to get some independent person, fine. I can't do it for that amount and anyone who does it for less is cutting corners. I can see ways that you "could" cut corners, but to do it right will require a complete teardown and removal and a new unit installation. Then there's vibration to worry about, whether on top of the wall or hung from the floor."
> 
> That's about the general response that I'm getting.



So it could be hung until the floor was finished and the blocked up to sit ion the floor. What cut corners anyone is suggesting I am not sure, we would still expect a pro to look after the required details and really there should be CO detector there anyway. And are they saying the first guy did it all wrong.

:help:


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## frodo (Apr 29, 2016)

JEEEEEEEZZZZ...


I am looking at your unit.  the duct work is connected by flex duct

DAMN....

disconnect the flex...turn the unit   hang it with regular old plumbers strap
hook the flex back up.

the gas line can be hooked up with a flex

when the unit is hung,, if a fella was smart, he would hang it so that the flue worked out

I see a half a day 2 guys

not a hole lotta material

$1000.00 no problem


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## nealtw (Apr 29, 2016)

frodo said:


> JEEEEEEEZZZZ...
> 
> 
> I am looking at your unit.  the duct work is connected by flex duct
> ...


That was exactly my thinking.:agree:


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## slownsteady (Apr 29, 2016)

It may create  noise (rumble) in the house if you hang it from the floor. But hang it temporarily till you get the rest of the job done.


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## jmr106 (Apr 29, 2016)

frodo said:


> JEEEEEEEZZZZ...
> 
> 
> I am looking at your unit.  the duct work is connected by flex duct
> ...



Most of the quotes say 2 guys for 3 whole days, and these are "HVAC Techs"...  I don't understand why they are making it into such a huge deal.


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## frodo (Apr 29, 2016)




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## nealtw (Apr 29, 2016)

Are you getting quotes in writing and what exactly do they want to do. Depending on what they are saying I might have some tough questions for outfit that installed the last time.


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## jmr106 (Apr 30, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Are you getting quotes in writing and what exactly do they want to do. Depending on what they are saying I might have some tough questions for outfit that installed the last time.




So far, I can't get anyone willing to alter it as-is and flip it/adjust it as-is. They see it as a big burden to disconnect everything and reconnect it. I have no idea why they feel that the entire thing needs to be replaced in order to do so. I think it may just be because they feel that it would be easier for "them" to start over from scratch. Or, as suggested and as I figured the minute that they told me - more money for them.

 I'm actually still leaning more towards hanging it, because it would virtually cost as much to temporarily have someone flip it and then bring it back down again. Even at $1,000 to temporarily hang it and then another $1,000 to put it back down where it was after I was finished...I'd be at nearly what the original installers wanted to flip it.


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## jmr106 (Apr 30, 2016)

nealtw said:


> So it could be hung until the floor was finished and the blocked up to sit ion the floor. What cut corners anyone is suggesting I am not sure, we would still expect a pro to look after the required details and really there should be CO detector there anyway. And are they saying the first guy did it all wrong.
> 
> :help:




Well, according to many of the "pros"...they apparently consider it "cutting corners" to make adjustments to the current furnace in order to flip it. So of course, the automatic natural solution to that is to just tear the whole thing out and replace it. No comments so far on anything that was done wrong with the first install, however. They just go into the usual, "I can't really see a way to do that without changing out the whole thing..." deal. I mean, it feels kind of dumb to stand there and feel like I may need to suggest something to someone who is supposed to know way more about it than I do.


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## jmr106 (Apr 30, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> It may create  noise (rumble) in the house if you hang it from the floor. But hang it temporarily till you get the rest of the job done.



The furnace and blower are actually very quiet. The furnace makes the typical "gas and flames" noise (I presume that's the rumbling you're referring to) that can be heard lowly in the hallway, anyway. It isn't disturbing at all. 

Just to the left of the system around the area right over the edge of the wall is where the old floor furnace used to be. When they removed that, they simply put in some type of (probably fairly thin) sheet metal covering of some type that covered up the whole furnace hole and then in the middle of that sheet metal is where that big return hose is going to. I think that return hose goes up and over the back or top of the machine. So that whole area there is the hallway, anyway. Given that thin sheet metal and that we can currently hear it underneath that area, I doubt that it being a few feet closer would make any difference in the noise. I'd still prefer to hang it if I could. I guess I just need to keep trying to get estimates from smaller companies, and stay away from the larger companies that tend to charge more.


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## WyrTwister (May 17, 2016)

Were it me , I would seriously consider raising it and hanging it from trapeze of all thread rod , attached to the joists above and   unistrut .

     Unless I am missing something .

     And I would do it myself , maybe with help with the lifting , from family members .

     This is not rocket science .  I have most of the tooling .  Would probably end up buying a Presto-lite torch from Harbor Freight and some Sil-Fos from a local HVAC supplier .

God bless
Wyr


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