# Replacing switches in bath 4-function exhaust/heater/lights unit



## theorbo (Feb 14, 2016)

Hello - thanks for checking out my issue. I've reached the limit of my knowledge and am ready to call in an expert but figured I'd see what the experts here would recommend. I'm definitely not an expert but do feel that I have a solid grasp of the caution and care that needs to be taken while doing any electrical work.

I purchased an older 1950s/60s-era home a few years ago and I have wanted to change the switches that control a Nutone 9093WH multi-function bathroom exhaust/heater/light/night-light. My goal is to put the exhaust on a spring-wound mechanical countdown timer and the other three functions on a single-gang 3-function switch.

I cut the power at the circuit breaker and then double-checked that there was no power coming into this switch box. I unwired the existing switches paying attention to how it was wired. Then I wired the new switches in the manner that I thought was appropriate based on the instructions. When I turned-on the breaker the unit made a very loud buzzing sound that I could hear from quite far away at the breaker-box. 

At that point I thought that I had not correctly identified the hot line leading from the panel to the box so I unwired everything and then had all the lines nutted-off and I was going to test to see which was hot. So at this point nothing is connected and the wires are all separate with a nut covering the exposed copper. When I flip the circuit breaker something makes that same sound. As best as I can tell there is nothing else on this circuit to make any noise so I am confused as to how something is being energized with all the wires disconnected from the switches. 

I'll provide some pics as well as the rough wiring diagram I've drawn showing how the wires were originally when it was functioning, and how I had wired-in the new switches. Any advice is welcome - barring something obvious that I'm missing i will call in a professional to sort it out.

Some links in case it is helpful:

Nutone installation with wiring diagram:
http://www.nutone.com/common/productDigitalAssethandler.ashx?id=5eeb792d-96cb-469e-ab13-ecf32f0c25b3

Timer instructions:
http://www.intermatic.com/~/media/i...on/timers/spring_wound/fd_ff_instructions.pdf

Combination Switch:
Pass & Seymour TradeMaster Decorator Combination Switch, White
TM8111WCC
http://www.legrand.us/passandseymour/light-switches/decorator/tm8111wcc.aspx#.VsD3vfkrK70

http://www.legrand.us/~/media/produ...esources/instruction-sheets/other/340819.ashx


Thanks,
David


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## slownsteady (Feb 14, 2016)

Which of the black wires is carrying the current (line) to the box? I'm pretty sure that wire is supposed to go where B4 is. So B4 can't be a jumper between the two units. I'm also thinking that the timer needs it's own line feed.


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## slownsteady (Feb 14, 2016)

I would add that you can hook up one thing at a time and test it before moving on the next.


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## bud16415 (Feb 14, 2016)

Ok all wires not connected and capped off and you turn on power and it makes a buzz. The rest of the circuits is not important at this point as nothing is connected. I&#8217;m assuming all the white wires are still combined in the back of the box. 

Sounds to me like there is something else on the circuit. When you turn the breaker on and hear the buzz it doesn&#8217;t trip? When you hear the buzz you shut it off? 

Can you tell where the buzz is coming from?


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## theorbo (Feb 14, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Which of the black wires is carrying the current (line) to the box? I'm pretty sure that wire is supposed to go where B4 is. So B4 can't be a jumper between the two units. I'm also thinking that the timer needs it's own line feed.



Thanks - that is a good question and one thing I didn't do prior to disconnecting it all - I'm living and learning.  Based on how the box appeared to be a bundle coming into each 2-switch gang (red, black, white) and then there was this extra white & black. I was hoping that this lone black was my line from the panel.


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## theorbo (Feb 14, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Ok all wires not connected and capped off and you turn on power and it makes a buzz. The rest of the circuits is not important at this point as nothing is connected. Im assuming all the white wires are still combined in the back of the box.
> 
> Sounds to me like there is something else on the circuit. When you turn the breaker on and hear the buzz it doesnt trip? When you hear the buzz you shut it off?
> 
> Can you tell where the buzz is coming from?




Yes, all the whites are nutted-together in the back of the box. And yes, your comments are correct. The circuit doesn't trip and I hear the loud buzzing/humming. It sounded like the noise is coming from above me - where the Nutone is located.  Is it possible that whoever installed this ran from the house panel to the ceiling/box where the device is located? And then from that to the switch? I can't figure out what else could also be on the circuit.

Thanks for your feedback, bud16415.


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## bud16415 (Feb 14, 2016)

It was pretty common in the 50/60&#8217;s to wire that way. Power can come to the switch first or to the appliance first and then run down to the switch. In those cases you will see a pair of wires coming down to the switch from a ceiling light or fan or such. 

What kind of a breaker is the circuit on? Is it a single or double. When you see a cable with the red and black that can be a 220v multi wire branch circuit were they bring 220 up on one cable and then make two 110v circuits. 

I still don&#8217;t see how the fan could be getting powered up if the switch controlling it is out of the loop. 

You have to try and map out what you have going on.


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## nealtw (Feb 15, 2016)

Is the old fan still installed?
Have another look at the white wire that dissapears behind the red in the photo showing all the wires.


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## KULTULZ (Feb 15, 2016)

You need to find the schematic for the original fan install. The PN should be on the old unit somewhere. GOOGLE it.

The unit you are presently installing requires Nm-b 2 wire w-GRD. The circuit is wired with 3 wire w/GRD presently (there is also an additional 2 wire which may be a switch loop). Regardless, you need to verify circuit feed. A NEUTRAL must go to the control unit.



> 2. The switch installs in a double-gang outlet box. When a
> thermostat or timer is used, connect at point marked T.



R U going to have the timer on both FAN (VENT) circuits or just the FAN?

I don't see (or fail to see in the instructions the wanted AMPERAGE of the supply circuit, whether 15A or 20A (I would think with the heat lamp it would be 20A). Have you checked code to see if the install calls for GFCI protection?


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## bud16415 (Feb 15, 2016)

Looking at your before sketch it shows power coming in on B3 the jumper bar is intact on the right side of both switches so B4 wire jumpers power to the other switch. B1, B2, R1 and R2 all go up to do the different things. That&#8217;s how it was working. 

B3 should be your hot wire. I don&#8217;t know how the combo switch is set up, but you need to jumper power between the two switches. On the timer side line should be power and load should be what it controls and B3 has to be jumpered to that line.


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## nealtw (Feb 15, 2016)

Some of the tabs on the old switches may be cut and there may be 2 circuits involved. Power could be coming in on one or both the three wires.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 15, 2016)

theorbo said:


> At that point I thought that I had not correctly identified the hot line leading from the panel to the box so I unwired everything and then had all the lines nutted-off and I was going to test to see which was hot. So at this point nothing is connected and the wires are all separate with a nut covering the exposed copper. When I flip the circuit breaker something makes that same sound. As best as I can tell there is nothing else on this circuit to make any noise so I am confused as to how something is being energized with all the wires disconnected from the switches.



Thanks,
David[/QUOTE]

Did you turn the breaker on just the once, or repeated times to insure that, that was the occurrence?

Your planned installation appears correct.


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## bud16415 (Feb 15, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Some of the tabs on the old switches may be cut and there may be 2 circuits involved. Power could be coming in on one or both the three wires.



In the one photo you can see the tab on the old double switch is not cut. And there is nothing connected to the vent screw where R1 is on the other side and seeing as how R1 vent worked you have to assume it was connected. No other way it could all work in the first sketch. My guess is B3 is the black wire right in the center of the box.


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## nealtw (Feb 15, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> In the one photo you can see the tab on the old double switch is not cut. And there is nothing connected to the vent screw where R1 is on the other side and seeing as how R1 vent worked you have to assume it was connected. No other way it could all work in the first sketch. My guess is B3 is the black wire right in the center of the box.



R2 B3 ???????? if the tab is not cut you don't need two wires


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## bud16415 (Feb 15, 2016)

nealtw said:


> R2 B3 ???????? if the tab is not cut you don't need two wires



B3 is the power coming in R2 is power going out thru Heat switch. B3 power goes thru jumper bar to B4 B2 is power out to night light thru switch jumper wire takes power to second switch and with jumper bar intact it powers light and vent B1 goes to light thru switch and R1 goes to vent thru other switch.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 15, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> In the one photo you can see the tab on the old double switch is not cut. And there is nothing connected to the vent screw where R1 is on the other side and seeing as how R1 vent worked you have to assume it was connected. No other way it could all work in the first sketch.





bud16415 said:


> My guess is B3 is the black wire right in the center of the box.



It appears that the hot pair are entering the right hand center and are labeled as B4.

It also appears that the switch legs are in two 12/3's, one entering the lower right hand corner of the right box and the entering the center of the left hand box.


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## nealtw (Feb 15, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> B3 is the power coming in R2 is power going out thru Heat switch. B3 power goes thru jumper bar to B4 B2 is power out to night light thru switch jumper wire takes power to second switch and with jumper bar intact it powers light and vent B1 goes to light thru switch and R1 goes to vent thru other switch.



I will buy that but I still want to know what the noise is?


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## bud16415 (Feb 15, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I will buy that but I still want to know what the noise is?



And thats the $64,000 question.


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## nealtw (Feb 15, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> And thats the $64,000 question.



Could be as simple as something else turned on that is on the same circuit.
But proving everything before going ahead would be a good idea.


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## bud16415 (Feb 15, 2016)

Could be something just happened to come on at the same second and has nothing to do with anything. I had a lightbulb burn out one time just as I flipped a breaker and it drove me nuts trying to tie the two things together.


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## nealtw (Feb 15, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Could be something just happened to come on at the same second and has nothing to do with anything. I had a lightbulb burn out one time just as I flipped a breaker and it drove me nuts trying to tie the two things together.



Should be easy to prove by just heating the breaker on and off a few times.
I want to know what kind of heat that is, just a heat lamp or baseboard heat with 220  volt. At this point there would be nothing an any box that I didn't know about, including the breaker panel.


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## bud16415 (Feb 15, 2016)

I assumed it is one of those red bulbs that were the thing back in the day. I haven&#8217;t seen one of them in quite a while.


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## nealtw (Feb 15, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> I assumed it is one of those red bulbs that were the thing back in the day. I havent seen one of them in quite a while.



Me too, but I think we need all the info, proved.


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## theorbo (Feb 15, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> What kind of a breaker is the circuit on? Is it a single or double. When you see a cable with the red and black that can be a 220v multi wire branch circuit were they bring 220 up on one cable and then make two 110v circuits.



This is a double-breaker ... and to make sure I am explaining correctly what I think you are asking I mean that in the circuit breaker panel there are two little switches that move in tandem for this one circuit.


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## nealtw (Feb 15, 2016)

The other breaker is running something elsewhere in the house!!
Have you got a meter or test light, how are you proving there no power to the box?


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## theorbo (Feb 15, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Is the old fan still installed?
> Have another look at the white wire that dissapears behind the red in the photo showing all the wires.



Thanks for the advice, nealtw. The old fan/apparatus is still installed as I am not trying to replace it, only the switches. It is a round Nutone 9093WH. This is not a heat lamp, or bulb, but rather a non-visible 1500W "fan-forced" heater (heat is from a heat element).  

I am not at home during the day but there are three white wires in the box. Two that come from each of the "red-white-black-copper" bundles that are sheathed in black (appear to come in from the top of the box). And then a third white wire that appears to be traveling with a black wire (without a red).  And yes, to another's comment ... this black is the B3 wire in the middle of the photo.


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## theorbo (Feb 15, 2016)

KULTULZ said:


> R U going to have the timer on both FAN (VENT) circuits or just the FAN?
> 
> I don't see (or fail to see in the instructions the wanted AMPERAGE of the supply circuit, whether 15A or 20A (I would think with the heat lamp it would be 20A). Have you checked code to see if the install calls for GFCI protection?



Thanks, kultulz. My goal is to have the timer control ONLY the exhaust fan/vent and NOT the heater.  This probably doesn't answer your question but the switches previously used were 15 amp, i recognize that this doesn't necessarily mean it was wired correctly. 

Here are the specs I've found for this unit: 
http://www.nutone.com/products/product/94825119-2ac2-4332-ad48-26867766d73f

My understanding was that GFCI protection was only needed if this was installed over shower/tub, which this is not. I will confirm this, however.


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## theorbo (Feb 15, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Looking at your before sketch it shows power coming in on B3 the jumper bar is intact on the right side of both switches so B4 wire jumpers power to the other switch. B1, B2, R1 and R2 all go up to do the different things. Thats how it was working.
> 
> B3 should be your hot wire. I dont know how the combo switch is set up, but you need to jumper power between the two switches. On the timer side line should be power and load should be what it controls and B3 has to be jumpered to that line.



Thank you. The new combination switch also has a tab that keeps all three functions on the same circuit unless I remove the tab, which I have not. That's why I thought I could bring-in the power on the lower left common and could use the lower right common to feed the timer.


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## theorbo (Feb 15, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Thanks,
> David



Did you turn the breaker on just the once, or repeated times to insure that, that was the occurrence?

Your planned installation appears correct.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Snoonyb.  I have closed the breaker twice and got the same noise both times.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 15, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> I assumed it is one of those red bulbs that were the thing back in the day. I havent seen one of them in quite a while.



It's a Nickel-chrome, 15ooW, open coil, fan forced.


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## nealtw (Feb 15, 2016)

We do need more information, the noise may have been something like a garburator, left turn on because it didn't work when the power was off.
You can get into the wiring of the fan from the front by removing the screen and pulling the motor plate and the wires are there
I would drop the light so you can see the wires and if you can open the heater to see the wires I would do that to.
Are the two breakers labeled?
You need some sort of testing equipment, some where you have 240 volts in one of those boxes.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 15, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Did you turn the breaker on just the once, or repeated times to insure that, that was the occurrence?
> 
> Your planned installation appears correct.



Thanks, Snoonyb.  I have closed the breaker twice and got the same noise both times.[/QUOTE]

Have you opened the "J" box in the appliance to determine if the power is junctioned there, prior to traveling to the switch box?

As they age, these open coil heating elements will began to rattle. It's just a function of age.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 15, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Thanks for the advice, nealtw. The old fan/apparatus is still installed as I am not trying to replace it, only the switches. It is a round Nutone 9093WH. This is not a heat lamp, or bulb, but rather a non-visible 1500W "fan-forced" heater (heat is from a heat element).
> 
> I am not at home during the day but there are three white wires in the box. Two that come from each of the "red-white-black-copper" bundles that are sheathed in black (appear to come in from the top of the box). And then a third white wire that appears to be traveling with a black wire (without a red).  And yes, to another's comment ... this black is the B3 wire in the middle of the photo.



Is the breaker a 15 or 20A?


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## theorbo (Feb 15, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Is the breaker a 15 or 20A?



Each of the breakers in this pair are 20A. I was able to open the apparatus and there is a junction box with plugs on this side of it. I am thinking that the wiring is junctioned in there before traveling to the switches. 

I am wondering if a short in between the junction box and the switches is sending current back to the motor, enough to make it buzz/hum but not enough to power it?  

Now that I'm inside this device it appears to be 30+ years old, considering just replacing it while i'm going through all of this.


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## nealtw (Feb 15, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Each of the breakers in this pair are 20A. I was able to open the apparatus and there is a junction box with plugs on this side of it. I am thinking that the wiring is junctioned in there before traveling to the switches.
> 
> I am wondering if a short in between the junction box and the switches is sending current back to the motor, enough to make it buzz/hum but not enough to power it?
> 
> Now that I'm inside this device it appears to be 30+ years old, considering just replacing it while i'm going through all of this.



Take photos.not sure what you have opened


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## Snoonyb (Feb 15, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Each of the breakers in this pair are 20A. I was able to open the apparatus and there is a junction box with plugs on this side of it. I am thinking that the wiring is junctioned in there before traveling to the switches.
> 
> I am wondering if a short in between the junction box and the switches is sending current back to the motor, enough to make it buzz/hum but not enough to power it?
> 
> Now that I'm inside this device it appears to be 30+ years old, considering just replacing it while i'm going through all of this.



It is odd that there could/would be 2, 20A breakers powering an appliance that is usually powered by a single 20A.

Is there power on any of the conductors in the switch box, metered to the grnd. or white conductors?

Are you familiar with or comfortable with working behind the dead front panel of the elec. service?

The dead front panel is the removable metal panel covering the inner workings of the service.


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## slownsteady (Feb 15, 2016)

In case someone here hasn't looked at the links in post #1, here is the diagram supplied by the switch maker.:


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## slownsteady (Feb 16, 2016)

There is nothing in that unit that requires 220V, so it is a mystery why that thing is on a double pole breaker. But when you throw that breaker I bet a bunch of stuff in your house goes on or off. You need to shut it off and walk around your house and map out what is turned off. You can do that with a small desk lamp or a plug-in radio, or better yet, one of those little dummy lights - er, I mean a circuit tester. As soon as you feel comfortable with what you're getting into, think about moving the bathroom fixture onto a single 20A breaker. Call a pro if you're not comfortable doing that.
The "Jbox" that is up inside the ceiling box is basically nothing but a 4-outlet receptacle. there are four outlets visible, and if you open that, I think you will find all the whites tied together and each of the blacks tied to one of the wires coming from the switches. I think you may also find the outlets are labeled by the Mfr, but they might have fallen off over the years. 

According to your first diagram and the labels on your old switch plate (if the labels were accurate) : R1 feed the vent, R2 feeds the heater, B1 feeds the light and B2 feeds the nightlite. That leaves B3 which may be the hot line - *check this before going forward* because only you can confirm the guessing that we are doing.
As best as I can tell from the switch instructions, the hot line wants to go to the switch where you currently have the B4 jumper


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## bud16415 (Feb 16, 2016)

In your panel is every breaker spot taken? 

The way you had your new switches wired looks right to me. 

I doubt you have any kind of a short in the fixture that&#8217;s causing the buzz. Have someone listen for the noise when you turn the switch on. the other half of that breaker is controlling something different in your house. As SNS mentioned you have to find out what else is on that breaker.


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## theorbo (Feb 16, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> There is nothing in that unit that requires 220V, so it is a mystery why that thing is on a double pole breaker. But when you throw that breaker I bet a bunch of stuff in your house goes on or off.



I am not sure about the circuit breaker ... I have emailed the previous home owners to ask them if some work was done that necessitated putting the Nutone on a separate circuit. I have not found any other light or outlet in the home that is sharing this circuit with the Nutone bathroom fixture.

Here's some pics of both the circuit breaker panel and the opened fixture. I believe that we can see the j-box, but I haven't torn into it yet. The circuit I am using is #4, second from top-right in the box. The writing from someone in the past has written "Bath" and "Nutone" to the right of the breaker. In small print on each of the little toggles it says "20A" and in this case there are two that move in tandem.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 16, 2016)

theorbo said:


> I am not sure about the circuit breaker ... I have emailed the previous home owners to ask them if some work was done that necessitated putting the Nutone on a separate circuit. I have not found any other light or outlet in the home that is sharing this circuit with the Nutone bathroom fixture.
> 
> Here's some pics of both the circuit breaker panel and the opened fixture. I believe that we can see the j-box, but I haven't torn into it yet. The circuit I am using is #4, second from top-right in the box. The writing from someone in the past has written "Bath" and "Nutone" to the right of the breaker. In small print on each of the little toggles it says "20A" and in this case there are two that move in tandem.



Now that you have all of the "plug-ins", unplugged, does the "buzzing" persist, or have you plugged them back in, in succession, to determine the source?


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## nealtw (Feb 16, 2016)

So we don't have 240 volts, just 2 X 120 volts, Are the tied together, do you have to turn them both off at the same time, I do not see a joiner?

The half sized ground indicates some of the wire is from the 50s.
Most of the breakers are 20 amp, is the wire 12, if they are 14 the breakers should be 15 amps
We don't know if there are 2 feeds to any part of this system.
The OPs wiring looked correct but we can not tell which wire came from which cable
We don't know what the noise was
We do not know which box was fed from the breaker.


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## slownsteady (Feb 16, 2016)

I can't be positive from that picture, but it doesn't look like a double pole breaker, just a tandem. I can't see any physical connection between the switches. can you throw each switch independently? if you can, then you need to make distinction between "breaker 4A" and "breaker 4B". Okay, your unit is wired in the housing somewhat different than mine, so part of what I said above may be invalid. Mine has 4 outlets and 4 plugs (1 for each of the functions).
It's possible that you have 2 hot lines coming into the switchbox. Could be the installer put the heat element on it's own circuit. Again, you need to check each wire individually for current.


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## bud16415 (Feb 16, 2016)

He doesn&#8217;t have enough wires to have two feeds in the Jbox. It could have been run with two feeds to the Nutone and brought only one back down to the jbox. I actually looked to see if Nutone did anything like that so the heater could be on its own line and turned on and off with a relay from the heater switch. I couldn&#8217;t find any option for one to work that way though. The heater draws 1700 watts and then the fan and a couple lights you are getting close.


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## nealtw (Feb 16, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> He doesnt have enough wires to have two feeds in the Jbox. It could have been run with two feeds to the Nutone and brought only one back down to the jbox. I actually looked to see if Nutone did anything like that so the heater could be on its own line and turned on and off with a relay from the heater switch. I couldnt find any option for one to work that way though. The heater draws 1700 watts and then the fan and a couple lights you are getting close.



The way it was wired, it looks like one feed. I am concerned about the size of wire. Built in the 50s with 12 gauge wire, I am just not a believe and that would be a fire hazard. From what we can see all the breakers are 20 amps.


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## bud16415 (Feb 16, 2016)

Looks like all the breakers are the same.

Five minute job to pull the face off the panel and take a look behind and see how many wires come off.


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## theorbo (Feb 16, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> I can't be positive from that picture, but it doesn't look like a double pole breaker, just a tandem. I can't see any physical connection between the switches. can you throw each switch independently? if you can, then you need to make distinction between "breaker 4A" and "breaker 4B".



Ok, well I have learned some things. So you are right, these breakers DO actually move independently. Sorry about misleading you all there ... in my previous residences anytime you had something that looked and felt like these breakers do, it meant they went together. So of course each time I was putting my finger in between the two and throwing them together. 

It was slightly weird that the panel has numbers for each "bay" but no indication that there are actually two breakers per number.

I also figured out together that there are actually 6 GFCI outlets in another bathroom that are on either circuits 4A or 4B. So they are currently off, as is the Nutone unit. 

If at the circuit breaker I close 4a I hear the buzzing noise but if I close 4b I do not. From the handwriting to the right of the panel, I believe that 4b is actually the circuit that the Nutone fixture is wired to.

So I still don't know what the buzzing/rattling noise is when I energize circuit 4a.


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## nealtw (Feb 16, 2016)

Each slot was made for one breaker and in most cases that is what they had when they were new.
My guess is that is not original to the house, and then someone else changed all the breaker to doubles. All the 20 amp breakers need a bigger wire than a 15 amp breaker would use.
Can you turn on one and get the other bathroom up and running. Could it be just a noisy fan in that bathroom.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 16, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Ok, well I have learned some things. So you are right, these breakers DO actually move independently. Sorry about misleading you all there ... in my previous residences anytime you had something that looked and felt like these breakers do, it meant they went together. So of course each time I was putting my finger in between the two and throwing them together.
> 
> It was slightly weird that the panel has numbers for each "bay" but no indication that there are actually two breakers per number.
> 
> ...



You previously suspected, with some certainty, that the noise originated from the appliance.

Are all the internal components of the appliance still unplugged?


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## theorbo (Feb 16, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Can you turn on one and get the other bathroom up and running. Could it be just a noisy fan in that bathroom.



No, I don't think that is it. The fan in that bathroom is already on a rotary mechanical timer and is currently working with the breakers in their current position. Only the outlets in that bathroom are not working. This home underwent some remodeling at some point and these GFCI outlets (6 of them!) were added or at least were replaced.

Snoonyb, the interior plugs of the device are still unattached. I have not left the breaker closed long enough to walk around and listen from many different locations but when I was upstairs near the unit and a friend closed that breaker it did sound like it was coming from above me in that direction. I do not know what else is up there that could be making that sound. 

I wish I could close the breaker and roam around to pinpoint the sound's origin. Would the breaker open the circuit if the cause of the noise is dangerous? For instance would a fire-causing short or arc-ing be a possible cause for this noise?


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## nealtw (Feb 16, 2016)

Is the heat part of that same unit or is it a different unit?


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## Snoonyb (Feb 16, 2016)

theorbo said:


> No, I don't think that is it. The fan in that bathroom is already on a rotary mechanical timer and is currently working with the breakers in their current position. Only the outlets in that bathroom are not working. This home underwent some remodeling at some point and these GFCI outlets (6 of them!) were added or at least were replaced.
> 
> Snoonyb, the interior plugs of the device are still unattached. I have not left the breaker closed long enough to walk around and listen from many different locations but when I was upstairs near the unit and a friend closed that breaker it did sound like it was coming from above me in that direction. I do not know what else is up there that could be making that sound.
> 
> I wish I could close the breaker and roam around to pinpoint the sound's origin. Would the breaker open the circuit if the cause of the noise is dangerous? For instance would a fire-causing short or arc-ing be a possible cause for this noise?



There needs to be a relative time to occurrences parallel.

Did your friend turn the breaker on AFTER you had unplugged the appliance components, or before?

You could have a marginal doorbell transformer acting up.

I'd turn the breaker on and if there is no noise, start plugging the components in to source the noise.


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## theorbo (Feb 16, 2016)

I have two bathrooms: 

The first is my master bath and it has the Nutone 4-Function device which is currently disconnected and is what I am trying to replace the switches. Also in this master bath is a GFCI, and two other lights, all of which are functioning.

My second bath is a hall bath and it has the 6 GFCI (not functioning) and two overhead lights (functioning) as well as a single-function exhaust fan which is on a timer and is currently functioning.


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## theorbo (Feb 16, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> There needs to be a relative time to occurrences parallel.
> 
> Did your friend turn the breaker on AFTER you had unplugged the appliance components, or before?
> 
> ...



This house *does* have doorbell transformers but I don't think any of them are in the vicinity of where I've heard the noise. If I close the breaker "4a" then the noise is still there (with the device components unplugged) and it was there before prior to my disconnecting the device components.


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## slownsteady (Feb 16, 2016)

theorbo: you've got a few issues here and it's hard to tell which are related. it may be better to solve these one-issue-at-a-time. let's see if we can isolate that buzz.
So here's the first question: before you started this project, and when you had all your breakers on, did you hear the buzzing noise? Ever?
Now, with all breakers on, and the wires for the nutone disconnected from each other, do you hear the noise?
And with just breaker for the Nutone (4B?) off, do you hear the noise? Make sure to hit the reset buttons on all of those GFCI outlets.


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## nealtw (Feb 16, 2016)

he outlets in the other bath are not working, check for electric razer, hair dryer or anything that might have been turn on and left because they didn't work.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 16, 2016)

theorbo said:


> This house *does* have doorbell transformers but I don't think any of them are in the vicinity of where I've heard the noise. If I close the breaker "4a" then the noise is still there (with the device components unplugged) and it was there before prior to my disconnecting the device components.



Thank you.

Is the attic accessible?

Do you have a voltage tester, other than a proximity?


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## theorbo (Feb 16, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> theorbo: you've got a few issues here and it's hard to tell which are related. it may be better to solve these one-issue-at-a-time. let's see if we can isolate that buzz.
> So here's the first question: before you started this project, and when you had all your breakers on, did you hear the buzzing noise? Ever?
> Now, with all breakers on, and the wires for the nutone disconnected from each other, do you hear the noise?
> And with just breaker for the Nutone (4B?) off, do you hear the noise? Make sure to hit the reset buttons on all of those GFCI outlets.



Agreed - thanks to all of you for your questions and patience as we work through this. 

Before I ever did anything everything was working as I expected it to and there was no buzzing noise. To confirm, I had all breakers in the on position at this point. Since I purchased this home 2.5 years ago I have never heard anything like that. And just to give a little more color about what it sounds like ... I recently had the blower motor in my furnace wear out. It was getting electricity but not turning-over, making a loud buzz/hum noise. Hopefully that is descriptive to some of you.

If I turn both of the "4" breakers on I do hear the buzz. 4a = buzz but 4b does not. If only "4b" is closed then I do not hear the buzz. If "4a" is closed then I hear the buzz. If "4a" and "4b" are both closed then I hear the buzz.

Should I hit the reset button of all the GFCIs and then check again?


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## theorbo (Feb 16, 2016)

nealtw said:


> he outlets in the other bath are not working, check for electric razer, hair dryer or anything that might have been turn on and left because they didn't work.



Thanks that is a good idea. Unfortunately nothing is plugged into the 6 outlets in the hall bath with the exception of a small lamp which is in the off position and should not turn on when the outlets are energized.


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## theorbo (Feb 16, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Is the attic accessible?
> 
> Do you have a voltage tester, other than a proximity?



Yes, I have access to the attic and I have a digital multi-meter.


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## nealtw (Feb 16, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Yes, I have access to the attic and I have a digital multi-meter.



Can you take a video and capture the sound.
I wonder if squirrels light up when you electrocute them :trophy:


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## Snoonyb (Feb 16, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Yes, I have access to the attic and I have a digital multi-meter.



Thanks.

Not that you would need the meter in the attic, just for voltage tests at the switch box.

You may need to venture into the attic to determine the source of the noise.

As lengthy and cumbersome as the process may seem, there is a method and it is simply a process of elimination.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 16, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Can you take a video and capture the sound.
> I wonder if squirrels light up when you electrocute them :trophy:



Medium rare is quite tasty.


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## theorbo (Feb 16, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> You may need to venture into the attic to determine the source of the noise.
> 
> As lengthy and cumbersome as the process may seem, there is a method and it is simply a process of elimination.



Understood - I recognize the need to go through the process and I appreciate the help. I am not in a hurry, just want to go about this in a methodical way while minimizing any damage to my home and property. 

With that said, I've been hesitant to allow the noise/buzz/hum to go on for longer than a second or two and in all instances except one I've been in the basement at a far corner of the house operating the circuit breaker. What is the likelihood that it will be safe enough to let the noise continue for a minute or two while I figure out where it's coming from? Will the circuit breaker prevent anything dangerous from occurring?  Or is the source of the noise likely not dangerous? 

I realize that I am asking a couple of hypotheticals here. Basically I am thinking that to determine where the noise is coming from I am going to have to let the noise continue for a few minutes.

I have to hit the hay for tonight but I will be back to continue this. Thanks again to all of you.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 16, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Understood - I recognize the need to go through the process and I appreciate the help. I am not in a hurry, just want to go about this in a methodical way while minimizing any damage to my home and property.
> 
> With that said, I've been hesitant to allow the noise/buzz/hum to go on for longer than a second or two and in all instances except one I've been in the basement at a far corner of the house operating the circuit breaker. What is the likelihood that it will be safe enough to let the noise continue for a minute or two while I figure out where it's coming from? Will the circuit breaker prevent anything dangerous from occurring?  Or is the source of the noise likely not dangerous?
> 
> ...



! more thing. Do you have an attic exhaust?


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## nealtw (Feb 16, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Ok, well I have learned some things. So you are right, these breakers DO actually move independently. Sorry about misleading you all there ... in my previous residences anytime you had something that looked and felt like these breakers do, it meant they went together. So of course each time I was putting my finger in between the two and throwing them together.
> 
> It was slightly weird that the panel has numbers for each "bay" but no indication that there are actually two breakers per number.
> 
> ...


Turn on 4B and see if all the outlets come on.
Check to see if you have power at your open switch box.
If you have no power to that open box and no power to some of the gfci, the gfcis will be on the same circuit and will have to be checked.


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## nealtw (Feb 16, 2016)

Hard wired smoke detectors, sometimes sound a signal when power is restored.


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## slownsteady (Feb 16, 2016)

If you are _really_ worried, you need two people and two cell phones. One person is positioned at the breaker and you pre-position yourself near the noise. Turn it on long enough to get a better sense of the noise, and have the breaker person shut it off. then go to where the noise was coming from (ie. the attic) and have the breaker turned on again. Keep working this way until you zero in.
it might also be smart to familiarize yourself (to have a clear idea) of the different sounds you might hear; a mechanical buzz does not sound exactly like an arcing circuit.


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## bud16415 (Feb 17, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Understood - I recognize the need to go through the process and I appreciate the help. I am not in a hurry, just want to go about this in a methodical way while minimizing any damage to my home and property.
> 
> With that said, I've been hesitant to allow the noise/buzz/hum to go on for longer than a second or two and in all instances except one I've been in the basement at a far corner of the house operating the circuit breaker. What is the likelihood that it will be safe enough to let the noise continue for a minute or two while I figure out where it's coming from? Will the circuit breaker prevent anything dangerous from occurring?  Or is the source of the noise likely not dangerous?
> 
> ...



I wouldnt worry about leaving it on for a few minutes to track down the sound. You have a working breaker in place and if anything was overloading that would trip. Figure out if the noise is coming from the fan or something else. Thats number one.


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## theorbo (Feb 17, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> ! more thing. Do you have an attic exhaust?



Yes, there is an attic fan that is on a switch and another attic fan that is on an automatic thermostat. The automatic attic exhaust fan is on the other end of the house, though. 




nealtw said:


> Turn on 4B and see if all the outlets come on.
> Check to see if you have power at your open switch box.
> If you have no power to that open box and no power to some of the gfci, the gfcis will be on the same circuit and will have to be checked.



Ok, so the mystery continues. Tonight I tried operating both the 4a and 4b circuits, independently, trying to determine which one the GFCIs in the hall bath are on. I also plan to use my multi-meter to confirm my belief that the Nutone is on the circuit 4b. 

But first, to recap from yesterday... I discovered that the 6 GFCI outlets in my hall bath (the other bathroom without the Nutone) were no longer operating. They have small LEDs on them and none of them were lit. Then I checked the circuit panel again and discovered that circuit 4 is not a double breaker but actually two independent circuits, 4a & 4b. When I operated the 4a circuit I heard a buzzing sound that I had been hearing since I had started this project. When I operated 4b by itself I did not hear any noise. Later in the evening I had depressed the test/reset buttons on all of the GFCIs in the hall bath and none did anything.

So back to tonight ... I had a friend help me operate the circuit breakers and I was positioned upstairs ready to figure out where the noise was coming from, as well as see which circuit would bring my LEDs back on the GFCIs. Guess what, we operated both circuits and neither created the buzz nor did either of the circuits bring the GFCIs back to life. I even tried depressing the test/reset buttons while both the 4a and 4b circuits were energized. 

Could my depressing of the test/reset buttons have changed something?


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## nealtw (Feb 17, 2016)

You are supposed to bring info that would help solve this:rofl:
We don't know if those plugs were working before you started so turn on one breaker and check for one or more live wires at the open switch box. And turn the other one on.
Let's deal with the gfcis later.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 17, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Yes, there is an attic fan that is on a switch and another attic fan that is on an automatic thermostat. The automatic attic exhaust fan is on the other end of the house, though.



If it is substantially cooler, IE. below the low limit of the thermostat, that fan will not activate.

Which does not eliminate it from the process, because hollow attics carry sound, even those insulated.

Does the switch operated fan operate correctly? 



theorbo said:


> Ok, so the mystery continues. Tonight I tried operating both the 4a and 4b circuits, independently, trying to determine which one the GFCIs in the hall bath are on. I also plan to use my multi-meter to confirm my belief that the Nutone is on the circuit 4b.



I believe the hot pair is entering the switch box at the center on the right side and is just a black, white and grnd. conductor. Meter between the black and the grnd. However if there is no reading, untie the whites and meter from the black to the white.



theorbo said:


> But first, to recap from yesterday... I discovered that the 6 GFCI outlets in my hall bath (the other bathroom without the Nutone) were no longer operating. They have small LEDs on them and none of them were lit.



When you say 6 GFCI, are you reffering to 6 duplex recep. or 3 duplex recep.?

These are smart GFCI and tell you, by the LED, when power is available. 



theorbo said:


> So back to tonight ... I had a friend help me operate the circuit breakers and I was positioned upstairs ready to figure out where the noise was coming from, as well as see which circuit would bring my LEDs back on the GFCIs. Guess what, we operated both circuits and neither created the buzz nor did either of the circuits bring the GFCIs back to life. I even tried depressing the test/reset buttons while both the 4a and 4b circuits were energized.





theorbo said:


> Could my depressing of the test/reset buttons have changed something?



GFCI will wear out, but it's from being stressed, not at rest.

At this point you'll need to start taking plugs apart, but start where you believe the first in line is.


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## slownsteady (Feb 17, 2016)

Ok, so if the buzz is declared solved, let's concentrate on the Nutone. Have you figured out which wire is the hot one?


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## nealtw (Feb 18, 2016)

I have been trying t figure why someone needs six outlets in a bathroom. And why would they all be gfci s
Then they all could be junction boxes after a main panel was moved.
But then they all should not go out at the same time.


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## slownsteady (Feb 18, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I have been trying t figure why someone needs six outlets in a bathroom. And why would they all be gfci s
> Then they all could be junction boxes after a main panel was moved.
> But then they all should not go out at the same time.



I agree, that is weird, and may indicate more weird wiring. But let's solve the master bath first.


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## nealtw (Feb 18, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> I agree, that is weird, and may indicate more weird wiring. But let's solve the master bath first.



What if the buzzing and the power was coming from the gfci area.


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## theorbo (Feb 18, 2016)

Forgetting the gfci outlets in the other bathroom for the time being, I want to check the 5 wires I have at the switch for the 4-function nutone device. Would you guys be able to give me the steps to using my multi-meter? I realize that I want to make sure I have it on the right setting. And then where do i touch my black and red leads?


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## bud16415 (Feb 18, 2016)

You want to set it on AC volts and a scale that goes over 120V there should be a 240V setting you want to then check between each wire and the bare copper ground wire or at the wire nut where the white wires are. You should see no voltage on any except the one I pointed out before is your incoming hot wire.


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## nealtw (Feb 18, 2016)

With mine, I set it on 150 volts AC. 
Black to ground, red to the find the power
If that doesn't work put the black to the cluster of whites.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 18, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Forgetting the gfci outlets in the other bathroom for the time being, I want to check the 5 wires I have at the switch for the 4-function nutone device. Would you guys be able to give me the steps to using my multi-meter? I realize that I want to make sure I have it on the right setting. And then where do i touch my black and red leads?



Whether your meter has plugin selections or a rotary dial to select the function, you need the RED probe to be in the "+" or AC voltage function and in a numerical range above 240.

In the AC function the RED probe is the positive and the BLACK probe is the negative, or in meters where both leads are loose, movable and plug-in's, is the common slot.

You contact the BLACK probe to the grnd. or bare copper conductor and I believe the hot pair is entering the switch box at the center on the right side and is just a black, white and grnd. conductor. Meter between the black and the grnd. However if there is no reading, untie the whites and meter from the black to the white.


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## theorbo (Feb 18, 2016)

Thanks for the instructions. So currently all the wires are capped-off with a nut. Perhaps I am paranoid but is it risky to remove the nut once the circuit is energized?  Also, do you guys think I should leave the nutone device components unplugged as they are now or plug those back into their receptacles?


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## Snoonyb (Feb 18, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Thanks for the instructions. So currently all the wires are capped-off with a nut. Perhaps I am paranoid but is it risky to remove the nut once the circuit is energized?  Also, do you guys think I should leave the nutone device components unplugged as they are now or plug those back into their receptacles?



You can uncap them individually as you proceed or all at once.

Just keep all the red's and black's separated as they are now, so you don't get confused.

Once you have identified the hot pair plug the components back in and then verify that you still have voltage at only the hot pair.


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## theorbo (Feb 18, 2016)

Thank you Snoonyb. Another probably obvious question. You are calling it a "hot pair" ... But only one wire should be "hot" or register ~120V, is that right? Or am I missing something?


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## Snoonyb (Feb 18, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Thank you Snoonyb. Another probably obvious question. You are calling it a "hot pair" ... But only one wire should be "hot" or register ~120V, is that right? Or am I missing something?



Correct!

However the term "hot pair" defines an electrical supply from which you can power a device and is composed of a supply conductor and the return conductor.

In this case a black or red conductor and a white conductor.

The bare copper or grnd. is a safety.


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## nealtw (Feb 18, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Thank you Snoonyb. Another probably obvious question. You are calling it a "hot pair" ... But only one wire should be "hot" or register ~120V, is that right? Or am I missing something?



If you find two hot wires, measure between them if you get nothing, they are from the same leg or on the same circuit. 
You could read 240.
As you don't have breakers tied together I would not expect 240.


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## theorbo (Feb 18, 2016)

Ok, so only the middle, bottom black wire is "hot". I am now putting the nutone components back in their place and will re-test.


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## nealtw (Feb 18, 2016)

I think that your wiring was fine, you could hook up one at a time to make sure you are right.


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## theorbo (Feb 18, 2016)

The 3-function switch is working fine. Now to install the timer.


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## nealtw (Feb 18, 2016)

Sounds like a plan.:beer:


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## Snoonyb (Feb 18, 2016)

theorbo said:


> The 3-function switch is working fine. Now to install the timer.



Before you stuff everything back in the switch box, turn the breaker off.

Be careful to loop the conductors and keep them slightly away from contact with the grnd. and the box.


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## theorbo (Feb 18, 2016)

We are in business!  I think the hardest part was slowly working all the wires into the box. 

Thanks for all of your help and advice. I've learned so much through this process so it wasn't in vain. I still have circuit 4a off and the GFCIs in the other bathroom are not functioning but that isn't a problem in the near term. I'm leaving for vacation this weekend and i'd like to come back here when I return in a week or so and debug that issue if you guys are willing.

Again, you have all been so forthcoming and willing to share your knowledge and I am very appreciative of that.


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## nealtw (Feb 18, 2016)

Good job................


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## Snoonyb (Feb 18, 2016)

theorbo said:


> We are in business!  I think the hardest part was slowly working all the wires into the box.
> 
> Thanks for all of your help and advice. I've learned so much through this process so it wasn't in vain. I still have circuit 4a off and the GFCIs in the other bathroom are not functioning but that isn't a problem in the near term. I'm leaving for vacation this weekend and i'd like to come back here when I return in a week or so and debug that issue if you guys are willing.
> 
> Again, you have all been so forthcoming and willing to share your knowledge and I am very appreciative of that.



Some photo's and, maybe a ham sandwich?


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## bud16415 (Feb 19, 2016)

well done.


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## slownsteady (Feb 19, 2016)

Have a good vacation. We'll be here when you're ready.:beer:


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## havasu (Feb 19, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Some photo's and, maybe a ham sandwich?



I didn't contribute at all since I don't know "jack" about wiring, but sure wouldn't mind biting down on one of those ham sandwiches!:


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## theorbo (Mar 2, 2016)

Hi all - i'm back from vacation and ready to finish this project that I've started. For anyone jumping into this now I'll give a very brief synopsis of what's going on ...

I replaced some switches in one of two bathrooms. After cutting the power to both of my bathrooms, when I turned the power back on at the circuit breaker I heard a loud buzzing noise. At first I wasn't sure where that was coming from but I have since narrowed-it down to the GFCIs in the other bathroom, the one where I made no wiring changes. 

At one point I pressed the test button on all the GFCIs while the power was off. While the power was off it seems that when you hit the reset button nothing happens? When I tried again and turned on the power to these outlets I no longer heard the same buzzing sound.

Tonight I powered the circuit with the GFCIs again and if I hit the reset button on two of the outlets nothing happens. But, for the third pair of outlets (in the photo this is the ones with a lamp plugged-in) if I hit the reset button on this outlet the lamp turns on and then the buzzing starts. I quickly hit the test button to stop the buzzing noise.

Any idea what may be causing this? Or what I should try next? I have had no issues prior to cutting the power to this circuit. Previously all of the GFCIs were working and had their green LED illuminated.


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## nealtw (Mar 2, 2016)

You again

Now you can make one work or the noise you can turn off the breaker and make sure the power is off.
The good news is, you only need one of those to gfci and then feed the others, so you just have to figure out where the power comes from for the line on the first one the other is fed from the load on the first one.
You just have to figure which one is good or bad.


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## Snoonyb (Mar 3, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Hi all - i'm back from vacation and ready to finish this project that I've started. For anyone jumping into this now I'll give a very brief synopsis of what's going on ...
> 
> I replaced some switches in one of two bathrooms. After cutting the power to both of my bathrooms, when I turned the power back on at the circuit breaker I heard a loud buzzing noise. At first I wasn't sure where that was coming from but I have since narrowed-it down to the GFCIs in the other bathroom, the one where I made no wiring changes.
> 
> ...



HMMMMMMMMPF! No photos, OR, a ham sandwich. Thats gratitude for ya.

Does it buzz without the lamp.

With the power off, remove the duplex recep. with the lamp connected. and check if all the wires are securely connected, because it sounds as though there is a loose connection.


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## theorbo (Mar 9, 2016)

Hi all, sorry for the delayed response. I've been able to look at the GFCIs, and it appears that they are all connected in series starting with the outlet closest to the corner. I also noticed that the ground wire is disconnected in this initial GFCI. Could that cause the buzzing/rattling noise that I have heard?  Thanks for your help.

Now, about that ham sandwich ...


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## nealtw (Mar 9, 2016)

If you had one gfci you would bring power in on the screw marked line and then you can feed other non gfci outlets from the load screw.
If you have three gfci outlets all wires should be hooked to the line side of all outlets.
Disconnect one at a time until you find the guilty guy.


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## Snoonyb (Mar 9, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Hi all, sorry for the delayed response. I've been able to look at the GFCIs, and it appears that they are all connected in series starting with the outlet closest to the corner. I also noticed that the ground wire is disconnected in this initial GFCI. Could that cause the buzzing/rattling noise that I have heard?  Thanks for your help.
> 
> Now, about that ham sandwich ...



Reconnect the grnd., power the circuit up and start doing voltage tests, line-load.


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## Snoonyb (Mar 9, 2016)

nealtw said:


> If you had one gfci you would bring power in on the screw marked line and then you can feed other non gfci outlets from the load screw.
> If you have three gfci outlets all wires should be hooked to the line side of all outlets.
> Disconnect one at a time until you find the guilty guy.



These are smart GFCI's and need power to the line terminals or they act as if there is no power, and can't be reset.


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## nealtw (Mar 9, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> These are smart GFCI's and need power to the line terminals or they act as if there is no power, and can't be reset.



Not sure that, that is different than what I said?


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## Snoonyb (Mar 9, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Not sure that, that is different than what I said?



He has three individual GFCI's, connected in series, a single and two in a 4s box.


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## nealtw (Mar 9, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> He has three individual GFCI's, connected in series, a single and two in a 4s box.



Yes and only a _*non*_ gfci should be in series after a gfci


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## Snoonyb (Mar 9, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Yes and only a _*non*_ gfci should be in series after a gfci



But thats not what he has and because these are smart GFCI's they need power to the line on each successive recepticle or they will not register as powered and cannot be reset and remain in the tripped position.

See msg. #97.


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## nealtw (Mar 9, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> But thats not what he has and because these are smart GFCI's they need power to the line on each successive recepticle or they will not register as powered and cannot be reset and remain in the tripped position.
> 
> See msg. #97.



But this why you wire them all to the line as in the picture.

If these are self testing maybe that is what the buss was.
If the are in series and the first one tests then the others trip too.
I don't understand why he has three. One would do the job.


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## slownsteady (Mar 9, 2016)

Simple to find out if they're strung together; turn off any one and see if the other two go out. Try all combinations. If they are strung together, remove the two 'followers' and replace with standard outlets.
Now, about that buzz; if it is still there when you have removed the excess GFCI's, and you have unplugged the light to be sure it wasn't the cause, you can use one of your 'new spares' to replace the buzzing GFCI.


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## Snoonyb (Mar 9, 2016)

nealtw said:


> But this why you wire them all to the line as in the picture.
> 
> If these are self testing maybe that is what the buss was.
> If the are in series and the first one tests then the others trip too.
> I don't understand why he has three. One would do the job.



Oh, I agree and that may eventually be the cure.

Judging from the jiffy box where the switches were reconfigured, someone has been at work here and appears to have not entirely grasped the concept of GFCI circuitry.


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## nealtw (Mar 9, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Hi all, sorry for the delayed response. I've been able to look at the GFCIs, and it appears that they are all connected in series starting with the outlet closest to the corner. I also noticed that the ground wire is disconnected in this initial GFCI. Could that cause the buzzing/rattling noise that I have heard?  Thanks for your help.
> 
> Now, about that ham sandwich ...



OK, communication problems aside. Buy two regular outlets and replace #2 and #3 wire them to the load side of the first one, then everything is protected and install the other two on other circuits in the house.
Now that you paid the extra price you may as well get some good use out of them.


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## bud16415 (Mar 10, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Hi all, sorry for the delayed response. I've been able to look at the GFCIs, and it appears that they are all connected in series starting with the outlet closest to the corner. I also noticed that the ground wire is disconnected in this initial GFCI. Could that cause the buzzing/rattling noise that I have heard?  Thanks for your help.
> 
> Now, about that ham sandwich ...



If anything they should be connected in parallel. If they are really in series thats not a good thing at all. 

I would take them all out but the first one and reconnect the ground wire.


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## theorbo (Mar 10, 2016)

Here's some pics - I want to make sure that I am describing the situation correctly.  I think I need to get a pic of what's going on in the corner GFCI's box. What is a "jiffy box"?


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## bud16415 (Mar 10, 2016)

The two you show are wired in parallel and as they should be. The black and white connection is a parallel jumper. I think there should have also been a jumper to the safety ground also or a pigtail to it as you show. 

There is no real need to have two together like that the way I normally do it is put one in the first position attaching power to the line terminals then run from the load terminals to the next regular outlet and then parallel wire as many as I want protected down the line. Any outlet down the line will then trip the first one. There is really nothing wrong with having a bunch of them like that except it wastes money doing that.


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## Snoonyb (Mar 10, 2016)

theorbo said:


> Here's some pics - I want to make sure that I am describing the situation correctly.  I think I need to get a pic of what's going on in the corner GFCI's box. What is a "jiffy box"?



Thanks.

A "jiffy box" is the style of box depicted in the switch reconfiguration and the one in the new photos containing the 2 GFCI's.

The wall material is cut the size of the box, the conductors inserted into the box, the assembly inserted into the wall and two clamps are tightened to hold the box against the top and bottom retaining tabs encircling the screw tangs for retaining the device inserted in the box.

I prefer to do a wall patch and use a standard box than fiddle around in a tight, marginal quality installation.

Regarding the 3 duplex recep. you are dealing with; The general method of installation is as Neal described.

OR, if the 2nd duplex GFCI recep. is feed from the load side of the first, to its line side, move the connection from the load side if the first, up to the line side, of the first, at the 2nd, if the 3rd is fed from the load side of the 2nd, move the conductors from the load side of the 2nd up to the line terminals and you will have three independently acting GFCI"S.

Also, keep in mind, GFCI:s wear out.

This is expanding, quickly, to some potato salad, to accompany the ham sanwich.


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## theorbo (Mar 19, 2016)

Thanks for all the explanations and help with this 'simple' project that morphed into much more than I bargained for. 

I was finally able to get my GFCIs sorted out today - ultimately the middle outlet was bad and had to be replaced.

Regarding why the previous owners used three separate GFCIs even though they are connected to each other via load to line ... I wonder if it was because by code any outlet in the bathroom had to be on a GFCI and if there was only one GFCI and the other two were traditional 3-prong outlets then the inspector wouldn't be able to know that they were GFCI protected without dismantling the outlets?

In any event - thanks all! This has been a major learning exercise for me. You guys rock!


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## slownsteady (Mar 19, 2016)

There is really not much sense in guessing why a particular homeowner does a particular thing. But I would venture a guess that he/she just didn't know that one GFCI protected multiple outlets.


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## Snoonyb (Mar 20, 2016)

theorbo said:


> I wonder if it was because by code any outlet in the bathroom had to be on a GFCI and if there was only one GFCI and the other two were traditional 3-prong outlets then the inspector wouldn't be able to know that they were GFCI protected without dismantling the outlets?



Daisy chained, as they were, would fault all three were the 1st too fault and the same would occur were the two slave recep. controlled by the GFCI.

As an inspector, I carried a small GFCI tester, for use when the contractor or homeowner was not present for the inspection, with a plug-in tool or lamp.

Inspectors are not allowed to disassemble an assembly.



theorbo said:


> In any event - thanks all! This has been a major learning exercise for me. You guys rock!



Regarding the aforementioned ham samich and tater salad. would you be so king as to drop them just down from your house, at the corner of WALK/DON'T WALK?


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