# Odd sewer pipe configuration



## jmr106 (Sep 5, 2016)

Had to change this question around due to more details. When I first started digging around the sewer line yesterday, I presumed this based on what I saw in the ground:








An original cast iron pipe that is visible (the far left pipe next to the a/c) in the crawlspace. Then I found what I thought were two extra pipes to the right side of it. One had a section a couple of feet long. Looks like maybe clay pipe with the larger end facing the sewer pipe side. Just laying there in the ground with no connection on either end.






 A "third" pipe ended up being small pieces of either the second pipe or perhaps what was left over from a third pipe that is no longer there. Hard to say which. Got all of those out, and I'm left with this:






Main sewer pipe joins with the active sewer pipe coming out of the crawlspace, but there is some kind of connection branching off from the main sewer pipe that looks like it might have gone to one of the old pipes that aren't there any longer. I've never seen anything like that before.


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## jmr106 (Sep 5, 2016)

Closeup of the parts in question:  











The top is hard and metallic like there is some kind of cap on the extension, but then I see what looks like some kind of rubbery pieces mixed in there. It looks like some kind of old p-trap or something and is going vertical as it comes off from the sewer line. Any pipe connected to the top of that - even long ago - would have literally been poking inches out of the top of the ground. Anyone ever seen anything like that before?

Note that the sewer line isn't leaking in any visible area. The puddle is from where I had to hose off the pipes to be able to see anything because they were so dirty looking that nothing would show up very well on photos.


Wednesday, I'll be checking with the city to see if they have property records and diagrams indication any old septic tank removal or existing tank out in the yard somewhere. As I figured, metal detecting the yard for pipes leading to an old septic tank/drywell would be a failure - everything beeps and I'm chasing rocks, various old metal pieces of stuff thrown down over the years, etc.

What are the chances of the remainder of these old, broken pipes under the foundation increasing water flow into the crawlspace? Would they wick water or is it not really worth it to chase them into the crawlspace?


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## nealtw (Sep 6, 2016)

So the sewer line goes out behind the house, are you still on a septic tank?


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## jmr106 (Sep 6, 2016)

nealtw said:


> So the sewer line goes out behind the house, are you still on a septic tank?



Nope, they are on city sewer. Both of the current sewer lines go out behind the house, but then join the same main sewer pipe. That pipe runs over to the side of the house (upper left of photo) and joins the sewer pipe that apparently 90s and runs straight out to the road. They have been on city sewer since my parents got the house in '79 and who knows how long the former owners were on it before that.

I expected to find pipes continuing on (basically where the pile of dirt is on the left) and running out into the yard, having been cut off by the modern sewer pipe. I haven't had a lot of time to dig there yet. I'm thinking they just cut the pipes and ran the sewer in between. Not sure if they would have removed those.

I'll see what the city has to say. I've read that you can ask if there was a septic abandonment permit. Apparently some states require them if you hook up to city sewer and leave the septic tank. Of course, it is possible that they may have removed it. It seems that if it was removed, that is supposed to also be noted on the property records/maps. In the meantime, I'm going to gather all info about this property that they have in one sweep. I'd like to see the land maps and see what kind of stuff they did with this land when they built the house. It sure would ease my mind if there was in fact some kind of ditch, drain, etc., that they covered up and dug into when the crawlspace was dug out. It would at least explain the crawlspace water flow issues. Tried to look up stuff online like how many former owners the house had, building plans, work permits, land layout, etc.  I'm not kidding, some of the sites that purportedly are state/county-related want $300+ for one report. I don't think they're legit or they're trying to charge for public records for a huge profit. I remember going to the courthouse and paying $10-15 at most to get the name and owner info for the house next door when they had something going on with an unrelated issue. Took them minutes to look it up and print me a copy from the computer. I hope the property maps and such are also scanned in that way. So I'll see what I can find. No more digging until I find out more Wednesday.

Should I cut this weird extension part out of the pipe and bridge it with pvc and Ferncos while I have it uncovered? Looks like part of the lid is broken, but the rubber stuff is still blocking the pipe.

I'm also pondering chasing those second/third pipes under the foundation of the house to see if they continue. However, I'm not sure that those would really contribute to the water issue if they're full of dirt. Not completely sure if that's worth it, but I want to see what the foundation itself is like, if there is one. 

I've pondered getting one of those lighted pipe inspection cameras and pushing it into the dirt hole in the crawlspace (the purported water flow hole behind the retaining wall) to see where it goes. Home Depot does rent them (I think you linked to one before), but I see that they want $300 deposit and it is literally about $170 or so for 4 hours. To rent it for one day is like $400-$500 if I remember correctly. Very large piece of equipment that would be very awkward to get down into the tight crawlspace. Pretty high price, too.

I'm not sure that there is a slab foundation on the house. I think that is called rubblestone or something like that. The way that the crawlspace toilet/sewer pipe (the one closest to the a/c) is running right up under the foundation and just under the surface dirt outside...I can't see how there would be a foundation there. Digging under that is probably going to take me directly to the crawlspace dirt. Could that be why the water flow is higher down there?


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## nealtw (Sep 6, 2016)

Years ago I was the grunt for an outfit hooking houses to sewer, old septic tanks had to be broke down and filled with sand to keep the rats out.
With basement houses we just hooked up to the old lines and when around the house, with non basement we redid everything under the house and took the shortest route out the front.
That curved pipe in the yard might have been a whole house trap, but the ones we came across had two clean outs.

Frodo should be along to give you some real advice.


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## jmr106 (Sep 6, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Years ago I was the grunt for an outfit hooking houses to sewer, old septic tanks had to be broke down and filled with sand to keep the rats out.



If one has been removed and no longer there, or filled in...I'm fine with leaving it there if it isn't causing drainage issues in the yard. However, I have also come across endless news reports of adults and children dying at enormous rates from randomly falling into these old septic tanks/cesspools/drywells with metal/concrete covers that rot away over the years. Apparently methane fumes can be so strong from an unfilled old septic tank that simply taking the (very heavy) lid off and/or standing over the opening has caused people to pass out and fall in/drown. That's pretty scary. 3 adults and a dog walk that back yard many times per day.


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## nealtw (Sep 6, 2016)

They are usually where you can find them, they did have to be pumped out from time to time.

They were never far from the house.


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## Sparky617 (Sep 6, 2016)

Due to the topography of our area, our sewer line goes out the back of our house.  The neighbors' across the street sewers go out the back of their houses as well.   The sewer lines take a completely different path to the town sewage treatment path 2 miles away.

When my childhood home got sewers back in the 1970's they didn't make us tear out or even pump out the old tanks, they were just abandoned in place.  They were concrete tanks & lids so little fear of the top or cover caving in.  My dad built a large addition to our house after the sewers were put in and we had to pump the tank at that time because it wound up in the crawlspace.  

That is a mess of pipe you have there.  You might need to get them checked with a camera to see which ones are still in use.   Are you getting water in the crawlspace?  What problem made you decide to go on this archeological dig?


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## nealtw (Sep 6, 2016)

Sparky617 said:


> Due to the topography of our area, our sewer line goes out the back of our house.  The neighbors' across the street sewers go out the back of their houses as well.   The sewer lines take a completely different path to the town sewage treatment path 2 miles away.
> 
> When my childhood home got sewers back in the 1970's they didn't make us tear out or even pump out the old tanks, they were just abandoned in place.  They were concrete tanks & lids so little fear of the top or cover caving in.  My dad built a large addition to our house after the sewers were put in and we had to pump the tank at that time because it wound up in the crawlspace.
> 
> That is a mess of pipe you have there.  You might need to get them checked with a camera to see which ones are still in use.   Are you getting water in the crawlspace?  What problem made you decide to go on this archeological dig?


http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=21057
And check out post 19


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## jmr106 (Sep 6, 2016)

Sparky617 said:


> That is a mess of pipe you have there.  You might need to get them checked with a camera to see which ones are still in use.   Are you getting water in the crawlspace?  What problem made you decide to go on this archeological dig?



Long story. There's a ton of threads about it at various times and places. This is an issue of water flowing into the crawlspace in a very unique situation. 

The latest pic has the only two active pipes. Both coming out of the house and joining the main sewer line. I've removed the broken ones, but still looking for a source of water. I'm also chasing a mystery object with "tin" over it that was dug up once or twice over the years by someone who isn't here any longer to give me details. Looking for anything to explain the enormous water flow during 2-3 day rains. Most comes from one side of the wall, it appears. There's a hole in the crawlspace dirt there that looks like a pipe is somehow feeding it or something.


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## jmr106 (Sep 6, 2016)

Sparky617 said:


> They were concrete tanks & lids so little fear of the top or cover caving in.




Maybe then, but this place is 66 years old. I'll find out hopefully tomorrow from the city when this property went on sewer. Lots of cement/concrete septic tank lids are crumbling and caving in killing people all over the country now. Apparently those are ranging from the 1930's to 50's. So it is a safety issue that I'm trying to cover while solving these other problems, too.


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## Sparky617 (Sep 6, 2016)

My childhood home is now 60 years old.  Not sure of the condition of the tank today as we moved when I graduated from HS.  A concrete tank shouldn't be falling apart unless it was affected by the freeze-thaw cycle.  Breaking the top and filling it in would require compaction as you go, or it will settle over time.


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## slownsteady (Sep 6, 2016)

If you have access to the end of one of those broken pipes, stuff a hose into the end and see if it flows into the crawlspace. Depending on the results, do the same to the other. A pipe that has the end stuffed with dirt is not necessarily completely full or it may have stones in it that will allow flow.


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## nealtw (Sep 6, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> If one has been removed and no longer there, or filled in...I'm fine with leaving it there if it isn't causing drainage issues in the yard. However, I have also come across endless news reports of adults and children dying at enormous rates from randomly falling into these old septic tanks/cesspools/drywells with metal/concrete covers that rot away over the years. Apparently methane fumes can be so strong from an unfilled old septic tank that simply taking the (very heavy) lid off and/or standing over the opening has caused people to pass out and fall in/drown. That's pretty scary. 3 adults and a dog walk that back yard many times per day.



If the city can tell when the sewers were installed, they should be able to tell you if filling the tank was part of the deal at the time.


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## frodo (Sep 6, 2016)

i did not read 2 pages

in my area,  old sections of town used septic tanks for years. they were generally in the back yard.
then, the city ran a sewer main down the middle of the street,  and gave the home owners a time period to hook the sewers up.
the plumbers would come in and  cut the line as it exits the house,  and run it around the house to the street

looks like that  is what happened at our place,  from the looks of the pipes.  i would replace the whole run with plastic.

we also would fill the old septic tanks,  we found the cheapest way was to use sand,  using sand, and wetting it , you will not have to compact it
saves in labor and equipment

if it were my house,  i would enter the crawl space, and reroute the pipes to exit out the front of the house, instead of going around it.
pricey..but a better system


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## nealtw (Sep 6, 2016)

At the front he will have to check the depth to see if the new pipe could go below the footing.


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## Mastercarpenty (Sep 6, 2016)

Not sure about now, but maybe 15 years ago you didn't need an abandonment permit here, but you had to disclose that info on a house sale and you had to also stake it's location or you were liable for every future issue involving the tank. Underground fuel tanks were the same but I know you need permit to do anything with those now. 

You really need to find out about the old tank and those pipes. My brother located the septic tank at my Mom's house with his VW- both rear wheels broke through the 'lid' which turned out to be just plywood! It's sheer luck that the whole back end of the car didn't go in, we had a heck of a time getting it out as it was. Had a concrete lid set there so all is well now. Yes, the fumes (more rightly the lack of any oxygen) can kill you but the biggest danger is infection if the skin is broken before or during the mishap. 

Generally a septic tank will follow a straight line from the first stick of pipe after the one leaving the house- turns are usually made there if they are needed. Probe the soil with a small stiff rod down to a few feet and you should find it. You might also locate it by the greeness of grass over the drain field lines since they "y" off just past the tank. Look at the land and think of where you'd set a tank and that's often where it is. If it's not filled, I'd do that for sure. 

Phil


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## jmr106 (Sep 7, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> If you have access to the end of one of those broken pipes, stuff a hose into the end and see if it flows into the crawlspace. Depending on the results, do the same to the other. A pipe that has the end stuffed with dirt is not necessarily completely full or it may have stones in it that will allow flow.



That's my current problem. The "two" pipes turned out to be one section of clay pipe that was a couple of feet long and the third pipe was just fragments that happened to be in a solid fashion that made me think it was another pipe when I first hit them. I haven't found any other piping going back towards the house or connected to the sewer line other than the main line that I know is active. So now I'm wondering how much of those pipes is under the edge of the foundation and in the crawlspace. I went right up against the house foundation in most of that area and I haven't found any other pipes and just found a few more broken pieces of clay pipe. So now at the current time, I don't know if the pipes go out into the yard still (because my pile of dirt from the current dig is in that general area) or if they extend into the crawlspace and are just hiding under the foundation.

But given that I don't see water absolutely pouring out of the drains of retaining walls that are right out in the open when it rains a lot...there shouldn't be any reason why it comes out so much in a closed crawlspace. Sure, if the ground is saturated, some would come in. Just not the rate that I've seen.


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## nealtw (Sep 7, 2016)

They just throw all their garbage in the trench and buried it.  We never did that.:rofl: much


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## jmr106 (Sep 7, 2016)

Sparky617 said:


> My childhood home is now 60 years old.  Not sure of the condition of the tank today as we moved when I graduated from HS.  A concrete tank shouldn't be falling apart unless it was affected by the freeze-thaw cycle.  Breaking the top and filling it in would require compaction as you go, or it will settle over time.



Not saying that you're particularly wrong, but a lot of kids and older people have died from stepping on concrete lids http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sinkhole-danger-old-septic-tanks/  from old septic tanks/cesspools. Granted, maybe some are stronger than others.  But they noted that "as the homes were modernized, the cesspools were abandoned and  forgotten. During the years, however, the concrete covers crack and  break down, which could lead to a sinkhole in your yard."  One lady's son was 2 years old and fell in one just outside of their house. While she was trying to pull him out, pieces of the concrete lid were falling in on top of him. So for whatever reason, I guess some states might be worse than others (temperatures, environment, etc.).


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## nealtw (Sep 7, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Not saying that you're particularly wrong, but a lot of kids and older people have died from stepping on concrete lids http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sinkhole-danger-old-septic-tanks/  from old septic tanks/cesspools. Granted, maybe some are stronger than others.  But they noted that "as the homes were modernized, the cesspools were abandoned and  forgotten. During the years, however, the concrete covers crack and  break down, which could lead to a sinkhole in your yard."  One lady's son was 2 years old and fell in one just outside of their house. While she was trying to pull him out, pieces of the concrete lid were falling in on top of him. So for whatever reason, I guess some states might be worse than others (temperatures, environment, etc.).



They built a concrete box and instead of forming the lid from inside, they laid boards across the top and put a thin coat of concrete over that. As the boards have long since rotted away, the thin concrete lid has trouble holding it's own weight. 

I would expect the tank to be very close to where you have been digging and the broken pipes you have found may well be the pieces that went to the tank from where you are.


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## jmr106 (Sep 7, 2016)

Mastercarpenty said:


> Generally a septic tank will follow a straight line from the first stick of pipe after the one leaving the house- turns are usually made there if they are needed. Probe the soil with a small stiff rod down to a few feet and you should find it. You might also locate it by the greeness of grass over the drain field lines since they "y" off just past the tank. Look at the land and think of where you'd set a tank and that's often where it is. If it's not filled, I'd do that for sure.



Well, since we have a dog...lots of her favorite spots are very green. About 33% of the yard where she goes has its own greenery. If there was just one sewer pipe coming from the house, it would be easier. But there's one under a bedroom window that is for the bathroom sink and washing machine drain. That goes to the main sewer. Then there's the toilet/tub/kitchen sink drain that goes out in the earlier photo next to the a/c and also joins the same sewer line that goes out to the street. I assume that the toilet pipe would be better to follow. However, those pipes are about 15-20 feet apart from each other.


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## jmr106 (Sep 7, 2016)

I will be checking around in the morning. Checking with the public works/water & sewer departments to see if I can get a map of what may have been in the area of this land when the house was built. 

Called the real estate division of the local courthouse today. They referred me to water & sewer and gave me a phone number in regards to any ditches/drains/sewer questions. I'd like to know in what year this property went to city sewer and if they have record of any work in the yard, septic tank, etc.

They also gave me the planning and zoning department and a phone number...more specifically to help with the septic tank and sewer questions. As I figured, so many of the county departments are so intermingled that they aren't sure where to direct you. I'm betting that calling those numbers will get me more numbers or referred back to the courthouse that gave me the numbers. 

I've located the plat map and parcel # online. Pretty big yard for a residential house crammed up against others in a neighborhood. 67' feet wide in the front and back yard, and 205 feet long from front to back. The higher majority of that is the back yard. So that's quite a space to be looking for something under the ground...

Interestingly enough, 8 or 9 houses down the street, there is an extension arm of the local creek that shows as flowing through their back yard (that would make it up hill if the creek fed it, so that can't be the case) on said map. It just pops out of nowhere in their yard on the map and runs down and flows into the creek down the street. It only the creek itself is labeled. Confusing. The old topo maps maps showed it going under ours, too. Not expecting the maps to be too revealing. I'll probably never know the answer about whether or not something natural is feeding the water if I can't locate pipes in the crawlspace funneling it in.


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## nealtw (Sep 7, 2016)

After the war we had lots of big lots like that and people built a kinda shack to live in and built there house over years as they could afford the material.


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## jmr106 (Sep 7, 2016)

Well, that was a big failure. I called Planning and Zoning. They don't have anything. They gave me Water & Sewer. I called Water & Sewer and they gave me Watershed. Called Watershed and they gave me the County Board of Health, Division of Environmental Health. She said I could pick the records up in person or get them by email. I chose email and got them within an hour or two. However, they sent the same property number for the address up the street - the road ends in Drive and not Circle, which is what it should have been. I called them back and the lady on the phone said, "I just happened to be walking into the office when they were talking about it and that's all that they have. They don't have the one for Circle, so we don't have what you're looking for" in a tone of voice as if she had an attitude.  

Typical government workers.   I knew it would be a run-around. I think she may have been too lazy to go scan another one. From the info that she did send:

The property up the street was built in 1949, just a year before the house I need records for. However, that house is up the street on the main road. This one is on a side road branching off from the main road. So it probably got sewer later than the house on the main road.

It did have a drawing for the house up the street:








Looks like theirs is about 14' from the house if I'm reading that correctly. Other info included is a 300 sq ft absorption area/100 linear feet, 36" trench depth and width, and they checked "no" for basement plumbing. But this was apparently for work done in 1999. Not too helpful, and it isn't even for our house, of course.


Thinking of getting a thin rod and just probing all over the yard until I hit something hard, or chasing the pipes on other side of the sewer line where they cut them off to run the sewer.


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## frodo (Sep 7, 2016)

it is easy to find the old tank. follow the pipe, 

i guarantee you  they dug up the sewer ine,  cut into it  turned it to the street

the section the cut out is the trash you found,


the old pipe is in the ground, dig along beside the pipe to the tank


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## jmr106 (Sep 7, 2016)

She doesn't want me to change the sewer pipe run. However, I may run pvc to where it joins the main sewer and tee it off. The main sewer looks like clay pipe, but that cast iron pipe coming from the crawlspace and joining the main sewer is likely clogged inside with rust just like the kitchen drain pipe i replaced. Frodo, got any advice about that leftover p-trap looking thing still attached to the main sewer pipe? Looks like a cap or something that someone rigged. Cut it out of the main sewer line and bridge the main line with Ferncos or just bury it again as is? I think I'm the only one in decades that uncovered that. I'm more of an "all in or not at all" kind of person, but she doesn't want to put money into anything like that that won't even be visible since she's selling in the future anyway.

Two sewer lines still exit the house. Is my best bet to follow the one under the bedroom window (bathroom sink and washing machine drains) or the toilet/tube/kitchen sink drain pipe? Both of them had to have joined the septic together, and I'll bet there's another old septic pipe on the other side of where the pipe from the bedroom window joins the main sewer pipe. Will it hurt anything to leave the pipes there? Just wondering if I should be worried about any water issues from that if the septic was broken/filling up with water. The water flowing into the basement when it rains seems clean, but I'm sure it is filtered by a lot of dirt, as well. It doesn't smell or anything. During high flows it looks muddy...hard to tell if that is coming from the dirt outside or inside of the crawlspace.


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## jmr106 (Sep 10, 2016)

Septic tank found just on the other side of the sewer city line under about 16 inches of dirt. The mystery tin was also found. The large piece of old tin (very thin tin, at that) was deteriorated pretty badly and part of it caved in when I shoveled the dirt from the top of it. It was covering a hole. I dug it out and got this hole that is maybe 6 inches wide and several feet long:






On either side of that hole, there appears to be a cement cement slab probably 3" or so thick. Not sure if that's attached to the walls themselves or just something they brought in and covered it over with. I'm puzzled why they thought that thin tin would cover such a hole properly. 

I'm pretty sure that I have reached the sides where the hole in the top ends (but that may not be the actual wall sides of the tank) and I have removed the tin piece that was covering this particular hole. I think there is more tin under the dirt that I haven't uncovered lengthwise yet. I'm currently unsure if there are more holes like this. Pardon the night pics, it shows up poorly in the daytime.

The only way to get a peek inside currently is taking an old cell phone and sticking it down into the edge of the hole to take pics with the flash. These are looking back towards the back yard:











The walls inside look somewhat solid, but its hard to say. On the back side towards the back yard, I see a single pipe extending down most of the way to the dirt floor. The depth is deceiving. At first I thought maybe 5 feet just under the opening. It looks like a lot of dirt has fallen in there or may have been there from when they covered it. Towards the back yard side, it looks more like 6-8 feet and possibly up to 10 feet deep into the ground. The pics don't really do it justice. The probe that I was sticking into the ground to find it...that was nearly 7 feet long. When I first found a little section of the hole, I stuck it down out of curiosity and it didn't even touch bottom. I could have dropped it and it would have kept falling. 

Interesting pipe on the back side. I don't see it connected on the top, but it is "hanging" there somehow. It is possibly against the side of the wall and affixed somehow. Towards the back yard side, it goes back maybe 6-8 feet in length. 

The side towards the house goes back maybe 2-3 feet max. 

Towards the house side, I see this about a foot or so from the top of the tank:






This pipe is maybe 2+ feet back and underneath the slab that I was crawling on to get the pics. I can't tell if that's capped or just full of dirt. Obviously an old clay pipe. This must have been where the water was going into the tank from the house. This whole thing looks homemade, but maybe this is just how they made them back then. 

I'll dig down and find that pipe, since it is maybe 1.5 feet underground at best. I'd like to see how well both of them are capped. I have read where most places state that you should break through the bottom of the walls to prevent water from being retained inside, but I'm not about to go into that thing. Thankfully, it appears to have already been pumped and/or everything dried up over the decades since it wasn't used. As soon as I popped the lid, there was a big swarm of mosquitoes around the open hole. Couldn't tell if they came from inside or just from around the yard.


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## slownsteady (Sep 10, 2016)

Fill that hole and it is likely you won't be getting so much water in your basement. Even with crushed pipe, it's a likely path for water to follow.


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## jmr106 (Sep 10, 2016)

What are the possibilities of this being a major contributor to the water issues in the crawlspace?

The hole that I took the photos in is this far from the house, but the actual tank extends about another 2-3 feet towards the house:







I guess it could be that the wall inside has degraded and might also be leaking somewhere on the lower part of the wall. I will be attempting to fill it full of dirt in the future. I just want to get the whole thing dug out first and make sure that there aren't any more surprises. I'm hoping that there are more openings along the length of it that would allow me to fill it in on top. I don't want to punch through 3+ inches of concrete to open a hole to put dirt in various areas while filling it up. 

That's also a heck of a lot of dirt. Nearly like filling a bedroom floor to ceiling with dirt. I know that a lot of places will actually give you free dirt by the truckloads. The left side of the yard has a chainlink fence. No access there. Even if I took the fence down, I'd have to cut a middle post off at the ground to get a big dump drunk through there. They would break the sump discharge pipe, possibly fracture the clay sewer line underground on the side of the house due to the weight, etc. The side to the right in the photo is what used to be an old driveway that ran along the side of the house near the back porch. Most of it is intact. Not a lot of room to work with over there, especially for something like a big dump truck Maybe 7-8 feet wide. I'm scared they'd take out the porch, awning, fence dividing the properties, etc. I'd have to measure the width between the back porch and the fence. Lots of humpy bumpy going on with that driveway and it isn't used and is behind gates anyway. So I'm trying to figure out how the heck I'm going to get that much dirt back there. It appears that a lot of the "free fill dirt" places either want you to pick it up yourself or you have to be a contractor to use their services.


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## slownsteady (Sep 10, 2016)

Chain link fence can be removed from the posts and reinstalled afterwards. Measure the space between posts. On the other side, bushes can be cut back. A dump truck can definitely take the abuse of a few  humpy bumpies. Cheap fill shouldn't be too hard to get.


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## slownsteady (Sep 10, 2016)

http://www.kingcounty.gov/healthservices/health/ehs/wastewater/owners/works.aspx

A septic tank would have a half pipe, which would channel the water from the middle of the tank (sludge is at the bottom, grease at the top) into the leetch field


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## jmr106 (Sep 10, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Chain link fence can be removed from the posts and reinstalled afterwards. Measure the space between posts. On the other side, bushes can be cut back. A dump truck can definitely take the abuse of a few  humpy bumpies. Cheap fill shouldn't be too hard to get.



Any idea how small dump trucks come? Tomorrow, I'm going to measure the width that the gates open and between the fence and porch to see how wide it is. I'm going to have to make that side work. Way too much going on to take that fence down and add on another project to find the time to put it back up.


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## jmr106 (Sep 11, 2016)

I'm thinking that this one may be something like this:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZayXc3CNpA[/ame]

It is the only possible configuration that I've found so far that remotely resembles it. Possibly slab lids. Haven't tried to lift any. I'm assuming that they're probably a couple of hundred pounds each. Some tanks seem to have compartments, but this one is just one big tank. I'll have to get back to you on that middle pipe thing...not even sure if it has one. I don't see anything sticking down into it in the middle, which is just a couple of feet from where I've dug up the area. I didn't see a pipe in the middle so far. I presume that the pipe hanging on the back side of the wall is possibly still connected the the drainage area somewhere further out into the yard.

So far, I have been searching around and haven't found an explanation as to what this small gap is in between the slabs that they felt the need to put thin tin over. I don't see anything like that even in the video. The opening of their slab lids is about 2-3 times the little opening that I've found that is apparently in between the slabs for some reason.


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## jmr106 (Sep 11, 2016)

7 feet of width on that driveway side between the fence and porch. I'd estimate more on the 6.5 feet side to avoid taking out the awning. 

I'm thinking of just getting some really thick plastic and spreading it across the driveway in the back yard on the inside of the gates and up against the edge of the fence (to keep dirt from going through the chainlink fence into the neighbor's yard). Then having them back up and dump right there on the driveway just inside of the gates. Use a wheelbarrow to take it back to the hole and dump it.  

The depth is definitely deceiving. I used a long pipe and bent it accordingly to get a closer measurement today. 

Final measurement that I'm going with is: 4.2 feet deep under the whole (given that some dirt has fallen in from opening the hole), 10 feet long and 4 feet wide. Still fairly deep, but thankfully not as deep as originally thought.

168 cubic feet of dirt? How do I figure out how many cubic yards that is? Apparently the companies deliver based on cubic yards.


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## nealtw (Sep 11, 2016)

A cubic yard is 3x3x3+27 cu ft    168 / 27=  about 6 yards   = 60 to 80 wheelbarrows


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## jmr106 (Sep 12, 2016)

I have a majority of the top uncovered now. So far, the only other opening that I have come across is a tiny crack about an inch or so wide. That quickly filled with dirt as I was digging. That's about a foot or two back from the larger opening towards the back yard side. I thought I would come across more tin, but so far nothing but a little piece here and there. The slab on the back side of the hole has a different sound and sounds more hollow or something. I was wondering if it was going to cave in at a few points and started digging from the side until I determined that it was quite stable. I'll just have to keep digging and see what I see further back. I'll need an opening better than that tiny opening to fill this thing up. I'm hoping that some of the slabs lift off and haven't been cemented when they pumped it. However, I'd be quite happy to find another larger opening with tin over it that I can punch through. I'm not fond of the idea of how much one of those slabs weigh. One person trying to grab a single side and move it would result in the other side diving into the hole. Unless, of course...I stood on another nearby slab and pulled the slab up and over on top of the slab, hoping that it can hold the weight. 

To prevent any happy little accidents with the dog or anyone somehow forgetting about it, I have roped it off with landscaping fabric and also secured it to the ground to keep any wandering whatevers away.


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## slownsteady (Sep 12, 2016)

My first thought is to take a sledge hammer to the cover and let be part of the fill.....but wait till you have dirt delivered before doing that. Other thought is to lift just one end and slip a 2x4 under it, then do the same to the other end. Then you could slide it or "roll" it off.


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## nealtw (Sep 12, 2016)

You will ind that you have three panels and one has been slide sideways to open it up for pumping. The pump guy left it open with a promise from people on site that is would be back filled.

When we dealt with these things we were to break the lid or drop the lid in and knock the side down so the would be 12" below surface. Usually you can move the lids around with a 5' digging bar.
Sand is your best filler as you add sand and water and it will fill every nook and cranny.

BTW, great job on finding this thing, good for you.:thbup:


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## jmr106 (Sep 12, 2016)

As for the dirt delivery...can't drop that in the front yard. On the side of the house where the chainlink fence is, even if I took down the fence, I'd have to dig out a metal fence post in the center. Then they'd drive around in the truck and break the pvc sump pipe running way out into the back yard. I'm sure the weight of a dump truck would probably crack the clay sewer pipe on the side of the house running out the street, then I'd have another headache. Plus, the neighbor on that side is a bit...bonkers and I don't want to look at him. The back porch side of the house is too small to let any type of dump truck into the back driveway.

The only way that I can see is those gates. They swing outward towards the front driveway. Trim the bushes back on the front, open the gates as far as they will go and either get some really, really thick plastic or some kind of large thick tarp. Put it flat on the back driveway area and also run it vertical and flat up against the fence to prevent dirt from getting to the neighbor's yard. That's just overgrown bushes on the other side of that and they never go there anyway, but I'd like to make an effort to be neighborly. It should help keep the back driveway from becoming a muddy mess, too. Once most of the dirt is removed from on top of the plastic/tarp, just drag it away into the back yard. In theory, at least.

I'm unsure of the current codes. Not about to call the county and ask or to "report" that I've filled it in. Given our county, they'd probably fine me for not being licensed/try to send out an inspector or something dumb like that. I've read that in some cities, they require it to be pumped and filled. Of course, they've already pumped it a long time ago. I'm planning to fill it. In other areas, they require complete destruction of it, removal of the structure and filling in of the hole remaining. So, when the house is sold later in the future...if anyone asks, I'll simply say that it was found and had already been filled.  Going to check those clay pipes on either side of it and make sure that they capped them properly.


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## nealtw (Sep 12, 2016)

Before you get to carried away, call your suppliers and see if they can put you in contact with a Bobcat service, theyy will have their own smaller truck and with the bobcat can deliver and back fill the tank, and at the same time have the gravel delivered for the crawlspace, I think Bobcats are less than 6 ft wide.
I know money is tight, but so is the time to do all that you have to do


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## nealtw (Sep 12, 2016)

http://www.craigshandymanservice.com/georgia/decatur/more-services/bobcat-services.html


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## jmr106 (Sep 12, 2016)

nealtw said:


> You will ind that you have three panels and one has been slide sideways to open it up for pumping. The pump guy left it open with a promise from people on site that is would be back filled.
> 
> When we dealt with these things we were to break the lid or drop the lid in and knock the side down so the would be 12" below surface. Usually you can move the lids around with a 5' digging bar.
> Sand is your best filler as you add sand and water and it will fill every nook and cranny.
> ...



The whole top of the tank is already about 16" or so below the ground surface. The lids appear to be recessed/fitted into the sides somehow. 

Probably what bothers me more is that nobody looked for this in the past. Grew up here as a kid. Family and pets have walked/mowed that yard untold thousands of times. Someone could have fallen through all the way up their hip(s). Sad that there are so many millions of these all over the country. Every time I've searched for info on it online, I constantly come across articles where people fall in these things and suffocate or drown. Any future properties will be thoroughly investigated.  

Will sand generally cost more or about the same as dirt? I see that there are a lot of free sites where you can post a wanted ad for free sand or dirt. Will sand channel water more so than dirt or about the same? I don't know that much about filler materials.

Then after I get done with this septic thing, I need to figure out that sewer pipe. I was thinking about this piece from earlier in this thread.









Wondering what it went to, since the main sewer pipe went out and was cut. The clay pipe found next to the house was from either the side of the septic tank that was cut to run the main sewer or a section that was cut out to tee in the cast iron sewer pipe from the crawlspace. The tee connection itself seems to be cast iron with the clay pipe somehow fitted into it. This capped pipe is much smaller than the 4" sewer pipe. Maybe a 1.5" or 2".  The current configuration in the crawlspace has a wye off from the toilet pipe that comes down. One of the connections from the wye is the tub drain pipe.








That looks annoyingly like the same size/type of cast iron pipe as that capped branch-off from the main sewer line. I'm wondering if this didn't do something funky way back when and go up under the house in another direction. I haven't found any old smaller pipe for this one, but that smaller connection had to go to something. This is also about the diameter of said hole that I'm pretty sure water flows into the crawlspace from, beside the retaining wall. So I may still end up chasing a phantom pipe into the crawlspace from outside of the house at some point.


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## nealtw (Sep 12, 2016)

Most times the delivery will cost just about as much as the product.

Years ago I was fixing up a house to sell and needed some fill to enlarge the driveway and a friend was building a house three door up and the engineers had him haul out tons of dirt and replace it with gravel and he was paying for truck to take it away and he asked if I could take some to save him some money. I took 3 truck loads and then it rained a little, a week later I went to spread that out. It had dried like concrete, so I had 40 yards of pick and shovel as well as wheel barrow. So be careful where you save money.

All you can do is dig up what you can and identify what you can... 
Sewer pipes are covered with sand or pee gravel to protect them before the dirt goes back in the ditch, so it wouldn't be hard for water to follow the outside of the pipe.


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## jmr106 (Sep 12, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Before you get to carried away, call your suppliers and see if they can put you in contact with a Bobcat service, theyy will have their own smaller truck and with the bobcat can deliver and back fill the tank, and at the same time have the gravel delivered for the crawlspace, I think Bobcats are less than 6 ft wide.
> I know money is tight, but so is the time to do all that you have to do




I'll call around and see what I can find with the suppliers. But things are looking up. Potential new employer called me the other day and is interested in my work history, but wants to offer me free training into a new career field that doubles my current pay. Going to talk with him this week. If I get good news on that, future projects will be a quick breeze financially. :thbup:  Having someone flip that system wouldn't be an issue anymore. At the current rate, even if I have someone dump the dirt/sand and do the work myself, I'm planning to have this septic tank filled and grass starting back to growing within 1-2 weeks max. I'm picking away at the dig before work and on weekends. I'd just like to see the whole tank and make sure both end pipes are capped before I fill it. Should be done digging this out by the end of the week at the very most. Probably way before that. It could be that the tank is filling up with water and draining it through cracks in the walls...might very well be coming from that and just seeping into the crawlspace from the nearby soil. Hard to say. 

Going to start on moving those two air ducts in the way of the crawlspace sewer pipe soon. Sewer pipe from the crawlspace will be replace and temporarily clamped onto the old one. Planning to do that in one day. Another day will be continuing the pvc run out to the clay pipe with a tee. I doubt that the main sewer clay pipe has anywhere near the restricted flow issues as the cast iron pipe that is probably rusted halfway closed inside like the old drain pipe was. I didn't see any gravel with these, so they probably used sand.


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## nealtw (Sep 12, 2016)

Check you code on PVC outside, here at has to be the black ABS and for the difference in price all the pros do everything in ABS now.


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## frodo (Sep 12, 2016)

rent a 
georgia buggy,   dump the dirt in the front yard,  load it into the buggy,  wheel it around to where you want to go.


pay the dump truck driver a little extra to stay and dump into the buggy, instead of filling by shovel


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## jmr106 (Sep 16, 2016)

I've found a local company that delivers the dirt and also lists that you can contact them for a quote on Bobcat work. Thinking about a change of plans. Instead of dropping on the front driveway, I may just have them drop it in the corner of the front yard, about 10 feet away from the house. The Bobcat could just scoop it up and take it back there. I'd already have the lids open and it could just be dropped in. The irritating thing is that they are from side to side, so to really drop them in without getting much on top of the concrete, they'd have to drive on top of the tank roof. Not sure how smart that would be. It looks like  $175.00$225.00 for 1/2 tandem load delivered.

I need a little over 6 cubic yards, so that's apparently about 12,000+ pounds of fill dirt. I was thinking about sand so that it would fill in everything better, but that's about $300 to $400 delivered just for the sand vs probably $200 for fill dirt plus the Bobcat. Delivery will likely be next Saturday. 

I'll probably dig up the pipe on either end and see how they capped it, tomorrow. If they just put a piece of tin or something up against the end of it, there's probably water pouring in from the surrounding dirt through the pipe. Got any advice on how to cap a big clay pipe like that?

I'm pondering if the bottom corner of the tank (the side closer to the bedroom window) has a crack/hole in it. That's 2 feet closer to the house under the ground, so probably 8 feet from the house. Oddly in the same place where said water flow hole is in the crawlspace.


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## nealtw (Sep 16, 2016)

So if this thing is filling with water and feeding the house, sand might  not be a good option,, dirt would have a better chance or packing down and slowing the water flow.
Order the gravel that you need for the crawl space and have him move that close to the door while you have the bobcat there.
The pipe, you could dig it up at the house and smash it there and fill the hole with grout. Or with a fernco coupler add a cap.


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## nealtw (Sep 16, 2016)

We never found steel in those old lids, often we just broke them with a 10 lb hammer


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## jmr106 (Sep 16, 2016)

Is there anything I could do about the already existing flow hole that probably leads from the tank to the crawlspace? If it has carved a little channel that size between both, that's probably 5 feet underground outside. I can't really inject anything into the hole from the crawlspace and have it magically run the length of the hole to wherever the water is coming from. I'm hoping that this stops it a lot just by having the dirt there to displace most of the free room for the water. It is probably safe to say that since I haven't found any other pipes...the water may be coming from this big open space and there may even be a direct channel straight to the crawlspace with less resistance than the surrounding dirt.


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## nealtw (Sep 16, 2016)

Hmm, Any pipe from the house to the tank should be close to the level of the top of the tank, even the pipe leaving the tank would be just a few inches lower than the house pipe.

I think you have found the original creak bed that was buried or was always an underground creak.
If you could find the original exit you could pipe it under or around the house but that would be costly and messy.

I am trying to figure out what could be done to find the original exit so you could set up a flow thru in the basement below gravel level.


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## jmr106 (Sep 16, 2016)

I don't know how they get the creek/spring/intermittent stream data for things like topo maps, but recent maps say nothing should be there as far as a creek. So I'm puzzled as to whether this big hole is filling up and causing water flow, it is just the water soaking through the dirt when it rains, a pipe is funneling it somehow or there's something else. All I know is that over a period of a couple of days, I have done the math before. In two days, after several days of rain, it pumped out like 13,000 gallons total that came in. Not a drop when it is dry, so it is something intermittent and only happens when it rains a lot, whatever it is.


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## nealtw (Sep 16, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> I don't know how they get the creek/spring/intermittent stream data for things like topo maps, but recent maps say nothing should be there as far as a creek. So I'm puzzled as to whether this big hole is filling up and causing water flow, it is just the water soaking through the dirt when it rains, a pipe is funneling it somehow or there's something else. All I know is that over a period of a couple of days, I have done the math before. In two days, after several days of rain, it pumped out like 13,000 gallons total that came in.



It may of always been underground and not disturbed until the digging in the basement, if that was the case finding or opening the exit would just let it go at the level that it is coming in.
If they had waterproofed the outside of the block wall would the water just run around the outside and find the exit.


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## jmr106 (Sep 18, 2016)

Finally got the whole top part of it dug up. I'm puzzled. It looks a lot longer than that in the video/pics, but I guess the length is deceiving just like the height. My previous method of measuring it was by sticking an old fence post in (had to bend it to get through the small opening) and going back to the wall, then marking the post and measuring it when I pulled it out. I think it went diagonal and probably threw off the numbers, however. The width was easily measured from wall to wall. The depth still seems to be about 4.5 feet on average. So, it is probably more like 7 feet long. I'll get some official measurements later today. This will change how much dirt I need to get delivered, of course.







I'm still confused about the random space that I initially dug out with the tin over it. I thought it was the lid moved out of place, like you initially suggested. However, I'm not seeing any lid humped up over the concrete roof of it. I have also uncovered the first - and so far only - lid. It is flush and where it needs to be. There's also a crack on the other side of the lid. Unless there's another one hiding under the little bit of dirt there further on the side away from the house, I'm not sure that there is another lid. That will make things very interesting. I poked around and the middle feels like a solid slab about 3 feet long. So here's hoping that the end has a lid hidden somewhere. I found the pipe on the back, but haven't gone down far enough to view it yet and just make sure that it is capped.







The lid didn't seem to be cemented on. I dug the dirt away from the sides of it and in the morning I should be able to lift it up one side at a time and move it over onto the roof slab next to it temporarily to get better video and when I go to fill it in. I'd like to particularly get better pics and video of the side close to the house to examine in detail and see if I see any cracks in the walls, etc. I won't be going down there to fix any that are seen, but simply to know. I'm sure that even after all of these years, it is likely very nasty and bacteria-ridden down there.

When they make the dirt drop and fill the hole, I may ask them to push the dirt that I have dug out back over on top of it so that I don't have to spend any more time on it. What would take me two hours will probably take them all of 5 minutes or less. I'll call them Monday to get a quote on the Bobcat work. It says they deliver in tandem and half tandem loads. I sure hope they can make it less than the 7 cubic yards (apparently about half of a dump truck, or 14 cubic yards on average for a full truck). Current guesstimates are 7 feet long, 4.5 feet deep (just to make sure I have enough) and 4 feet wide. If my math is right, that would only be about 4.7 cubic yards of fill dirt. But I want to make sure I get that right so that I don't end up with way more than I need. I sure hope I can find another lid. The one that I dug up is just teetering on the edges. The rocks are coming out of the concrete as I dig and scrape it a little bit. I see a lot of areas where the concrete is corroding to the point where chunks come out of the slabs while digging, so I'm quite glad to have discovered this. While it seems "solid"...not sure how much longer that concrete would hold under the weight of the dirt. Looks very poorly made. Man, they must have taken every shortcut they could have when they built these houses in this neighborhood.


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## nealtw (Sep 18, 2016)

They left a lip on the edge to keep the lid from siding in by mistake, my guess is that there is no lip on the ends to allow the lids to be slid sideways for pumping and was left open.

You should really do all the plumbing done around the outside that you are going to do so the bobcat can clean all that up at one time. Raising the dirt level around the house a little would not be a big deal.


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## jmr106 (Sep 22, 2016)

The company that advertises the Bobcat service with dirt delivery...the owner was doing that as a side gig at some point. Though it is still on their website as being available, he doesn't do it any longer. None of the other local delivery places do it. I'm sure I could scour the area for Bobcat contractors...probably lots of them. I'm just going to do it manually.

I'm going to see if I can get my hands on one of these:







Home Depot and a lot of home improvement stores should have it. Gorilla Cart/Dump Cart. It is a lot easier than a wheelbarrow, apparently holds about the same and the big wheels make it roll a lot better across the grass and bumpy areas. When I get to the hole, just flip it and let the weight of the dirt dump itself down into the hole. I could probably use it later to just wheel right into the crawlspace door and do the same with dumping gravel when it is time. I'll also be picking up a scooping shovel and a large tarp. I'm just going to spread it out over the driveway and edge of the yard and let them drop it right there. At a moderate/comfortable pace, I can probably have that thing filled in withing 4-6 hours max. 

So here's an odd question.

The septic measures 7.5 feet long x 4.5 feet deep x 4 wide officially. I had been unsure about the length since I had not found each end wall yet. Still only the one lid that is almost in the middle, about 2 feet wide.

Just to add a little overkill for packing down, various little holes in the yard, etc...I assume 8 x 4.5 x 4. That should be 144 cubic feet if my math is correct. Divided by 27, that should be about 5.3 cubic yards of fill dirt. When I look up 5 and 6 cubic yards being delivered at houses...why does it not "look" like it will fill the tank or be enough? I know that my measurements of the hole are right. For some reason, it just doesn't "look" like enough dirt based on the pics and videos that I have seen of people getting similar amounts.


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## nealtw (Sep 22, 2016)

Trust your math, it never looks or sounds right.


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## nealtw (Sep 22, 2016)

Can you find local adds like this, learning to drive a bobcat or skid steer will take you about 5 minutes.
http://www.kijiji.ca/b-ontario/bobcat-rental/k0l9004


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## jmr106 (Sep 22, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Trust your math, it never looks or sounds right.




Yeah, it didn't look right. But then again, I said to myself, "All of these people do that stuff every day. They use these same measurements to get what they need to fill in all sorts of things, so why wouldn't it work?"

One thing that I do find that is interesting...a lot of the companies say stuff like, "That's not very much..." when I ask for a quote. I know that thousands of people get small amounts like this delivered probably on a daily basis. I found one company that does $6.34/cubic yard plus whatever the delivery. Another company wanted $175 for 5.5 cubic yards of fill dirt and delivery. But even they say 8 yard or 16 yard deliveries. Hoping to get them to deliver less than that. I'll be calling them to see. So, like everything else...I'm finding that there are some that charge little and some charge a whole lot. Everybody only delivers in big tandems. Original plan was to have it dumped in the yard, but I don't want them backing off the side of the driveway trying to dump in the yard and cracking the driveway or something dumb like that. Sometimes it seems like if you start one project, getting what you need for that one project ends up causing you to have a few more projects. :rofl:


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## nealtw (Sep 22, 2016)

jmr106 said:


> Yeah, it didn't look right. But then again, I said to myself, "All of these people do that stuff every day. They use these same measurements to get what they need to fill in all sorts of things, so why wouldn't it work?"
> 
> One thing that I do find that is interesting...a lot of the companies say stuff like, "That's not very much..." when I ask for a quote. I know that thousands of people get small amounts like this delivered probably on a daily basis. I found one company that does $6.34/cubic yard plus whatever the delivery. Another company wanted $175 for 5.5 cubic yards of fill dirt and delivery. But even they say 8 yard or 16 yard deliveries. Hoping to get them to deliver less than that. I'll be calling them to see. So, like everything else...I'm finding that there are some that charge little and some charge a whole lot. Everybody only delivers in big tandems. Original plan was to have it dumped in the yard, but I don't want them backing off the side of the driveway trying to dump in the yard and cracking the driveway or something dumb like that. Sometimes it seems like if you start one project, getting what you need for that one project ends up causing you to have a few more projects. :rofl:



Yup, it's nuts, after you figure how much you need , remember the guy filling the truck is more or less guessing and then they might weigh it and you get a bill for so many tons and up here it really goes wild with meters and tones.

I suggested bobcat guys because they often haul the machine with a 6 yd dump trailer, you might try landscapers, they have the same equipment.
Sometimes these guys are just hauling stuff away and want to be rid of it.

Gravel suppliers and the like will have one or two trucks that they own and then they have a list of truckers, the better price will come from the independent driver if you can find one.


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## jmr106 (Sep 25, 2016)

I had a company drop 6 yards of dirt on a big tarp in the driveway yesterday. The receptionist messed up the order at first, so they ended up being later than planned. I have been using the cart that I posted before and it works quite well. I can take about 400+ pounds right to the edge of the hole and dump it in directly. I've filled the tank to within about a foot of the opening and will finish today. It took about 6 hours yesterday. I gave up on the Bobcat thing. The companies and contractors in the local area (most of which are foreign-owned) are so wishy-washy for everything that I just decided to forget it. 

That lid was about 350 pounds at least. I could physically lift it, but not enough to flip it onto the top of the tank on either side. Used a lot of pry bars to try to leverage it, but it eventually fell into the hole and was left there. That whole lid could have gone poof at any time. It was barely teetering on the edge on each side and big chunks were breaking off from it as I was trying to pry it.

With the lid gone, more light could get in. A curious amount of dirt was already in the bottom of the tank. It has little channels on either side next to the wall, as if water has cut a path between the wall and dirt on each side and going all the way around.









Possibly a little damage to the wall on the side close to the house, but can't really tell:













The pipe seems to be full of dirt, so they may not have capped it off at all. Probably just cut it and left it there for water to flow into the open hole from the surrounding ground. Actually, I can't even tell what they did. That looks like some kind of metallic pipe slipped inside of the clay pipe or something. I presume that the mole crickets see there must have gotten inside when the small opening was open for a week or so. Curious looking part of the wall right below that pipe. This is roughly 8 feet or so from the house and approximately in the said area where the possibly water flow channel is in the crawlspace. It looks deceiving. The above is a photo taken with flash. 


This is video grab of that same hole, with continuous lighting.It looks like a big open hole under the pipe. The above photo shows that maybe the wall is cracked and/or some dirt from outside has gotten into the hole and is visible from inside of the tank. The wall of the tank is probably a good 4" to 5" thick.









Granted, this pipe is about a foot down from the roof of the tank on the side towards the house. What are the chances that when it is raining a lot for 2-3 days that water is flowing in through the uncapped pipes and old/damaged parts of the wall, filling up to the top of this about 4 feet deep and exiting through this potential hole and going through a little channel of this size into the crawlspace?  Apparently the tank could hold something like 1,200 or so gallons of water if it fill up completely. Now, on the other side of this wall is where I was digging up the area for the city sewer pipes and such. So any "channel" area that was there...I've likely dug it up and interrupted it, filling that portion of it when I covered that area back over. I'm going to poke around just outside of the tank and under this pipe and see if this little opening extends just outside of the wall of the tank in the area where I haven't dug yet. If it does, this may have been the problem of the water flow for all of those years. Granted, I have now fill the hole with dirt and there wouldn't be much room for water to get in there, even soaking into the dirt that I've put inside. I'm still thinking of capping that pipe if it is open, just to make sure. Water probably seeps into that hole from everywhere when it rains, anyway...the walls are likely all bad and certainly not waterproof.

Should I bother with putting anything else but dirt (thick piece of steel, etc.) over where the now missing concrete lid was? Or just leave it all dirt? I know that the inside may pack down a little over time.


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## nealtw (Sep 25, 2016)

The hole under the pipe is because they put that pipe in before they pored the concrete and it didn't flow all the way around..
We always just broke the lids with a 10 lb hammer and let them fall in.
Dirt level will go down when it rains and compacts so mound it up 6 to 9 inches.
It would have been nice if it had rained while it was open and empty so you could have seen what was happening.
There was a drain field somewhere that might have been backing up into the tank, like maybe where you where pumping the water.


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## Mastercarpenty (Sep 27, 2016)

Best soil compaction occurs with each 'lift' being about 6", then compacted. For something like this I'd double that and compact at each foot of added soil. If you don't compact the soil as you go it may continue settling for a year or two based on what the soil is composed of, and it will be very soft when wet for a few months of more. Eventually it will find it's own level. Nature will compact most soils more than 6" below the surface in 30 years time to about 90% of what is possible and that is adequate for foundations to be placed directly on. Mounding over like Neal suggests will work, but compacting as you go along will nearly eliminate settling giving you a finished product faster.

Phil


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## jmr106 (Sep 27, 2016)

nealtw said:


> There was a drain field somewhere that might have been backing up into the tank, like maybe where you where pumping the water.



Ive wondered about it, but to my understanding, the drain field should be somewhere towards the center of the yard and the pipe coming out of the back should angle down into the drain field with a vertical or angled drop. At least, if they did it right. The sump discharge spot is about 15 to 20 feet away diagonally from this spot.


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## jmr106 (Sep 27, 2016)

As for the compacting...I'm going to mound it up a little in the area where the lid opening is and let it compact down when it rains. If over the time it compacts down some more, I'll just add more dirt on top until it stops. I presume that inside, this tank had a concrete floor that I just couldn't see because it was covered in dirt. The dirt that I put inside of the tank may compact down under the roof areas of the tank that I couldn't remove without breaking the roof. My main concern was that if the concrete roof of the tank broke, there was a good 4 to 4.5 foot drop. If it compacted down a foot or so in the tank and the lid collapsed someday...the 18 inches or so of dirt on top would fall down and there wouldn't be anywhere to fall but maybe a foot. The dirt from on top would kind of shield the fall, too. But a 4.5 foot fall would hurt a lot more. The other reason was because that whole thing probably does fill with water and may be going into the crawlspace. Now it doesn't have much room for water.


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## nealtw (Sep 27, 2016)

Most times those old drain fields were at the end of their life when they were disconnected but they were just 1 ft clay tiles laid in gravel so water could dissipate but if you want to drain a field you would do much the same set up..
Today we would expect the foundation would be dug out and a separate hole dug for the septic tank but back then they both may have been dug out with a bulldozer at the same time. In the fifties and the sixties we were installing perimeter drains at the footing. If you have that it would anybody's guess where they ran that too but if it is no longer draining water away it could be working against you.

I still think it is about ground water level and it was always below the dirt in the crawlspace and if you raise the furnace and tank and pump level the pump my only be need for the biggest storms.


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## nealtw (Sep 27, 2016)

I would still install a couple monitor stations for ground water to see what is happening in the dirt.

There are things you can set up with tech readers but cheap works just as good.
With a post hole digger dig a hole near the depth of the hole in the crawlspace.
drop in a 4" pvc drain pipe with holes in it cap that at ground level with a clean out that can be removed.
Back fill with gravel to keep the dirt out and a foot from the top a piece of poly and then dirt, that will keep the rain, surface water out.
Build a float out of a smaller piece of pvc with caps on both ends
At anytime you can remove the clean out cap and measure the depth.
 A few of these some distance from the house and your water discharge.


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