# Hey Canadian Friends



## oldognewtrick

Well the US Thanksgiving is coming up, just wondering if you have any questions about our customs that you have been dieing to, but afraid, to ask.

Let me start-deep fried turkeys are DELICIOUS.

                 -yes, collar greens are served on turkey day.

                 -deer hunting before dinner is a tradition.

                 -i don't know why inspector wears that funny hat.

                 -we can't 4-wheel on the moon so we practice the day after  
                  thanksgiving when all the city folk are at the malls.

                 -did I mention deep fried turkeys are DELICIOUS


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## Nestor_Kelebay

Canadians are dying to know:

What are "grits"?  You know, when Granny Klampett tells Jethro that they're having roadkill stew and "grits" for supper, what are the "grits"?

If an American doesn't bag a deer before dinner on Thanksgiving, does he just shoot something else instead?

Turkeys and pumpkins both play an important role in traditional American Thanksgiving Day celebrations.  There are male and female turkeys.  Are there male and female pumpkins?  If so, how would they, you know, the pumpkins I mean, do IT?


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## TxBuilder

Grits are like polenta. I grew up eating them and I love them.
We shoot anything anyways the day is unimportant.
Yes pumpkins have male and female. We are not picky  when it comes to this though. They both make excellent pies/ Best friends for life.


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## oldognewtrick

Vegetarian is an old Indian word for "Bad Hunter" if you don't shoot a deer it is not southernly correct to substitute another animal for dinner.

If you have never had GRITS then you don't know what you are missing. Grits also stands for "Girls Raised In The South" ahh... Grits. Gotta love em.

Where else but the good Ole USA, where the symbol for a Holiday is then an eatable item. Pumpkins, Turkeys, Easter Rabbits, Apple Pie. ummmm Apple Pie.


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## TxBuilder

I did not know that.


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## Nestor_Kelebay

Well, I'm amazed.

Grits is (close enough to be called the same thing) cornmeal.  I had grits for supper many times when I was a kid, but it musta been a Ukrainian way of making "grits" cuz my GRANDMOTHER used to make it for me and my two sisters when my mom couldn't be around to make supper.  And, my grandmother never spoke or read (or probably even understood) a word of English in her life (short of "yes", "no", "hello" and "goodbye").

My grandmother would make a simple porridge out of cornmeal, and on top of it she would put a big scoop of sour cream, and that would be supper for us kids.  Easy, quick and filling.  I remember eating that at our old house, but I never knew I was eating "grits" with sour cream.

I always figured "grits" was some kind of green vegetable.  That's one of the few things that The Beverly Hillbillies never taught me about life in America.

Getting a full size Thanksgiving Deer into the oven of a standard 30 inch wide range must be a real fight, tho.


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## oldognewtrick

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> Well, I'm amazed.
> 
> Getting a full size Thanksgiving Deer into the oven of a standard 30 inch wide range must be a real fight, tho.



It's one of those 'Hear, hold my beer and watch this" moment.

I actually like grits. Great with eggs, served with butter and lots of black pepper. Don't know about the sour cream thing... Grits are much the same as cream of wheat except it's a corn meal product. Dang now I'm getting hungry, guess we'll make a run to the Waffle House tonite


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## Nestor_Kelebay

oldog/newtrick said:


> It's one of those 'Here, hold my beer and watch this" moments.



I'll bet.  I'm wondering if Guiness has a catagory for "biggest deer in a standard size oven" and who the current record holder is.  No doubt it would involve a lot of planning, just like those 12 Japanese tourists that fit into a standard Los Angeles phone booth.


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## Nestor_Kelebay

Clearly, one thing that all Americans have to be thankful for on Thanksgiving Day is that the Pilgrims didn't adopt the moose as the traditional Thanksgiving Day meal.  You guys'd be having moose leftovers till Christmas.  Obviously, the Pilgrims were a level headed bunch.

In the US, Thanksgiving is celebrated on the 4th Thursday in November.  In Canada, it's the second Monday in October.  We just celebrate the previous Sunday cuz that gives the cook time to prepare a big meal and family the time to come from the country or neighboring cities.  Do you guys just wait for the following weekend, or do you actually carve the Thanksgiving deer on Thursday?  I guess, just like in all things, practical considerations overrule tradition, and Thanksgiving is actually celebrated on the following weekend.


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## oldognewtrick

Nestor, I have sat in a many woods in Ky, Tn, Al, Oh and have not yet seen the first moose. If the moose replaced the turkey as our symbol for thanksgiving day there would be a lot of meals of grits and pour-age with sour cream. 

At my house Thanksgiving Day is a 4 day weekend. Starts on wed about 11:00 and gets over about noon on Mon. I usually try to take vacation days this time of year and I for one am thankful that all the kids are back in town to live. My oldest daughter just moved back from NYC with her husband, who I really like a lot. Good to have the family within visiting distance.

No venison for me yet this season. Thats what happens when you hunt for one special animal. We are seeing the rewards of managed hunting the past 8 years, with taking a tract of about 5,550 acres and planting winter food plots and providing safe zones for the animals to seek sanctuary, not overly pressuring the animals and maintaining a healthy herd balance for bucks to does. So if you want to see a redneck stuff a deer into a kitchen range I guess you'll have to wait a little longer. Only Guinness at this house is in a bottle. On the bright side we are taking the corn feed hogs (7) to the processor the 2 ND week of DEC. Right now thet are pushing about 225#. You wouldn't believe the difference between corn feed and grocery store bought pork. It's almost like it's a different animal. The sausage and pork chops are AWESOME!


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## Nestor_Kelebay

Oldog/Newtrick:

I don't have a problem with hunting, provided that it's done in a responsible way with conservation in mind.  I've never hunted in my life, but I'd much rather see wild deer being hunted to cull their numbers rather than see them starve to death if their populations get too high.  Just as in the US, our provincial government (and probably federal too) monitors the population of game animals and sets strict quotas on what can be hunted, when and how many of each animal a hunter can take.  Years ago, the law was that if a hunter was caught with more than he was allowed to take, then the government would confiscate everything he used to hunt with, including the vehicle he was using, so there was actually a market for old beat up cars.  They've changed that, but I really don't know what the laws are now.

Here in Winnipeg, the Canada Geese are accumulating to fly south for the winter.  They do that every year, but last year there was a suprisingly large accumulation of them in Assiniboine park.  I was riding my bike throught the park, and I musta seen ever bit of 3 or 4000 geese in the field where they play cricket.  (We have a large Pakistani and Indian population here in Winnipeg, and the game of cricket is popular with these people cuz of the British rule of India that ended with Ghandi).  I think there was so many geese there because we had quite a bit of rain before that, and worms in the ground come up onto the ground after a rain.  So, I guess it was good feeding on worms for those geese.  I was just surprised to see so many of them.  There's about 8 cricket "fields" in that area of the park, and the whole area looked like it was covered by geese.  Normally, they accumulate in wetter areas (like along the river) where there's more bugs for them to eat, but I guess the sight of a few birds feeding attracts a flock, and the sight of a flock feeding attracts a bigger flock.

The group "Ducks Unlimited" spends a bunch of money up here (and north of here) creating wetlands for ducks and geese to nest in.  Maybe that's why we have so many Canada geese here.


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## oldognewtrick

Nestor you are 100% spot on with hunting in a ethical manner. A lot of groups besides DU have invested a lot of money and time to reintroduce species to former habitat areas. The Rockey Mtn. Elk federation has brought Elk back to Tennessee over by Knoxville at a Royal Blue State park. The national Wild Turkey Federation has brought back the wild turkeys to hunt-able populations, grants are available to plant CRP to provide habitat for Quail that have almost disappeared due to the cleaning of farm fence rows and coyotes. All of these efforts are under the guide of our state game and fish commission and funded through the cost of hunting licenses.

I never hunted till I turned 49 years old, never had an interest. Now I really enjoy sitting in the deer woods on a cold crisp fall morning and enjoying all the sights that nature provides. Deer are amazing animals, extremely keen eye sight, hearing and they never second guess their sense of smell, or sitting on a early morning ridge listening to turkeys fly down from their nightly roost and hearing the clucks and gobbles as they try to locate likely partners for the days mating session. It's really enjoyable to be a part of nature, to take the time to enjoy the things we drive by in our hectic daily lives.

This is how I got my screen name, you can teach an old dog new tricks if you are open trying new things.


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## travelover

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> Oldog/Newtrick:..................I musta seen ever bit of 3 or 4000 geese in the field where they play cricket. ........................




I'm amazed that your geese play cricket. The ones down her just kind of waddle around a poop a lot.


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## Nestor_Kelebay

> on a cold crisp fall morning and enjoying all the sights that nature provides.



Everyone likes that.  One of the reasons why golf is so popular is because if it wasn't for the little white ball, the whole game would boil down to a long leisurely walk in the park.

There's a fair number of deer in the Winnipeg area.  There's a road called "Wilkes Avenue" that used to go (they've since changed it) from close to where I live to close to where my sister lives, and so I've traveled that road many times.  I frequently saw wild deer when driving down Wilkes Avenue, and my sister had her car written off when she accidentally hit one (again, while driving down Wilkes Avenue).  That really shook her up.  Not only did she feel bad about hitting the deer, but it wrecked her car and she had to spend time shopping for a new one.  The problem is that deer don't have any concept of the speed the car is going and there's a 90 Km/hr (about 55 mph) speed limit on Wilkes Avenue, and so what (to them) seems like a safe distance to cross in front of the car results in them being hit by those cars.


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## Nestor_Kelebay

travelover said:


> I'm amazed that your geese play cricket. The ones down her just kind of waddle around a poop a lot.



Yeah, ours waddle and poop too.  But, to be honest, I can't say that I've ever been inconvenienced by their pooping.  I think that's probably cuz about the only time you see them in/over the city is in the spring and fall when they're flying north and south respectively.  In the winter they're all gone south, and in the summer you see the odd family of Canada geese on a river or pond somewhere.  Or, you can go to a place like Oak Hammock Marsh which is a wet swamp about 10 miles from Winnipeg that was built by Ducks Unlimited with financial help from the provincial and federal governments to provide a wetland habitat for ducks and geese.  Ducks and geese live at Oak Hammock Marsh throughout the summer.  I've only been to Oak Hammock Marsh once, but I really didn't see any ducks or geese when I was there.  It's a huge place, and I guess the ducks and geese mostly don't fly around when they're mating, feeding, or tending to their young.  I think they probably just feed on the bugs that live in the shallow waters there, so there's no need for flight.

http://www.oakhammockmarsh.ca/

I guess the ones that continue flying north prefer the rivers and gazillions of small lakes in northern Manitoba to the relatively dry farmland of southern Manitoba.  So, during the summer we only see Canada Geese along the river banks or in ponds here and there.  The only time I ever see them in large numbers is when they're congregating to fly north in the fall.  They'll congregate in grassy fields where they feed on the bugs in the ground, and it's not uncommon to see 100 or more of them in one area.  I guess they congregate in groups like that because not all of them know where to go when they fly south in autumn and north in spring.  So, the experienced ones teach the newbies, I guess.












Imagine seeing a huge field packed full of these honkers.  It's like seeing an international goose convention.

You can tell Canada Geese by their distinctive white cheeks.  People hunt the Canada Geese.  I've never hunted cuz I've never wanted to.  I'd rather spend the day on my bicycle or on the couch watching TV.  I'm too lazy to hunt.


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## TxBuilder

You tell them from a distance from the Honk Eh, Honk Eh. I think you were thinking about Collard Greens maybe Nestor? If we had chose the moose we first would have to have them. And we don't actually eat the deer on thanksgiving we keep it till the end of deer season then turn it into useful food products ex. Sausage, Tamales, More Sausage.


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## oldognewtrick

Tx, Tx, Tx... don't tell Nestor were not trying to stuff a deer in the kitchen range on turkey day. I was really hoping for him to have the mental image that at 1:00 on Thanksgiving Day there was a national passionately trying to stuff a deer carcase into the oven to feed the hungry masses assembling to devour everything in site. Oh well... guess we won't bring up the truth about snipe hunting.


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## inspectorD

What did I miss, and who took my hat ? I' for one need some advice...tell me about snipe hunting, I have seen a few around here, but they are to quick for me...any advice?


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## Nestor_Kelebay

Well guys, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I knew the Thanksgiving Deer was  bogus.

I have no clue what collared greens are, but I could guess that it was some sort of green vegetable.  If we have them up here, then they go by a different name cuz I've never heard any store advertising them for sale.

There are lots of "traditional" American foods that we don't have here, like "grits" (although we have cornmeal), collared greens, black eye peas, corn bread, corn dogs, sasparilla, and other stuff like that.  But, we have Whopper's, McNuggets, Pizza, Twinkie's, Potato Chips, Coke, Pepsi and Kool-Aid, so we're good.


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## travelover

Collard greens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Re the geese - they were so numerous on the campus where I attended college that the sidewalks would get slippery from their droppings.


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## Nestor_Kelebay

Yeah.   I heard that some of your golf courses in the US sometimes have problems with the geese pooping on the greens.  They use dogs and horns to chase the geese off the greens, and even turn on the sprinklers to scare the geese away, but they always come back to poop on the greens.  It's a problem cuz if you can't make a 20 foot putt cuz of all the poop the ball runs into on it's way to the cup, it can be frustrating, and it raises your score.

(Don't tell anyone that Canadians train the geese to do that before sending them south every winter.)


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## TxBuilder

Everyone knew that you crafty Canadians.


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## Nestor_Kelebay

Curses!  Now they suspect us.

We'll have to tie them to the railway track.


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## inspectorD

But what do whe doo abowut Moose and sqquerell.....


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## Nestor_Kelebay

These are no doubt the moose and squirrel you're referring to.

Bullwinkle: Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat.
Rocky: Again?
Bullwinkle: Presto!
Lion: ROAR!!!
Bullwinkle: Oops, wrong hat.

(Boris points the cannon at Rocky and lights the fuse.)
(Cannon fails to fire.)
Natasha: Vhere is "BANG" in large font?


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## oldognewtrick

Nestor, how far is Winnipeg from Frost Bite Falls, Mn? Do you ever run into Natasha any where? I use to think she was pretty hot. Time probably hasn't been kind I would suspect....

Gotta miss some of those old cartoon's from childhood. Guess it was a different day back then.


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## TxBuilder

I too dig Russian chicks. I always wondered what she did to get stuck with Boris. It never worked out! You think at some point they would be reassigned  to taking out a rhino/rat team. Why were the Russian's against Rocky and Bullwinkle anyhow?


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## Nestor_Kelebay

Oldog/Newtrick:
     I did a little bit of digging, and apparantly the fictional town of Frostbite Falls is located in Koochiching County in Minnesota.

Frostbite Falls, Minnesota - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Welcome to Koochiching County, Minnesota

      Koochiching County is also where the real town of International Falls, Minnesota is located.  International Falls, Minnesota holds the dubious honour of being the coldest town/city in the lower 48 states with an average annual temperature of 36.4 deg. F.

US Extremes and Records - EnchantedLearning.com

     Because of this, the nicknames for International Falls, Minnesota is "Icebox to the Nation" and "FROSTBITE FALLS, Minnesota".

International Falls, Minnesota - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, the fictional town of Frostbite Falls is believed by Rocky and Bullwinkle affectionados to be the real town of International Falls, Minnesota.

     International Falls, Minnesota, with it's population of 6,700 lies directly across the Rainy River from Fort Frances, Ontario with it's population of 8,000.  The Rainy River is the border between the US and Canada, and the International Falls International Bridge connects the two towns.

Fort Frances ? International Falls International Bridge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, the distance from Winnipeg to Frostbite Falls, would be very close to the distance from Winnipeg to Fort Frances, Ontario, which is 245 miles.

Fort Frances, Ontario, Canada

TxBuilder:
     Why were the Russians after Rocky and Bullwinkle?  I think that aspect of the comic was just a reflection of the cold war that was going on at the time.  Rocky and Bullwinkle, coming from Minnesota were American, and Boris and Natasha were Russian.  So, given the state of world politics at the time, they would have been expected to be adversaries.  It's interesting that the comic showed Boris and Natasha always trying to attack Rocky and Bullwinkle, without ever giving a reason, but it never portrayed Rocky and Bullwinkle as the aggressors against Boris and Natasha.


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## oldognewtrick

O.k. tell me what is Tim Hortons?


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## Nestor_Kelebay

Tim Hortons is a chain of over 3000 coffee/donut shops across Canada.  There are only about 100 Tim Hortons locations in the US, so you may not be aware of them.  They're kinda like you're Dunkin Donuts in that they specialize in both coffee and donuts.

Tim Horton was originally a Canadian professional hockey player who went into the fast food restaurant business.  He subsequently died in a car crash, but the restaurant chain that bears his name lives on, and is now focused on serving coffee and donuts; not hamburgers or pizza or ice cream or anything else.

Tim Hortons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Canada was never part of the US coalition in Iraq (cuz we weren't convinced it was  really necessary to go to war in that case).  Instead, we sent our troops to Afghanistan (where they are under UN command) so the US could concentrate on Iraq.  To show support for the Canadian mission in Afghanistan, Tim Hortons opened up a location inside the Canadian military base at Kandehar.  The coffee and donuts at that location are the same as any Tim Hortons in Canada, but the employees there are civilians hired by the Canadian Military to work at that location.

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=8f567fe7-fb94-4b91-a261-69b4236c6566

I don't know how many Canadian soldiers there are in Afghanistan now, but I know that there has been just over 100 of them killed over there so far, mostly by road bombs.  I think the Canadian mission to Afghanistan is scheduled to end in 2011.  There's an awful lot of frustration in the Canadian military with the Afghan mission.  What exactly the problems are, I dunno.  I just know that there's reported to be a lot of tension between the government and the top brass of the Canadian military.   In the past coupla years, the head of the Canadian Defense Staff, (General Rick Hillier) has been replaced, and there's talk that it was because he wasn't telling our government what they wanted to hear.  General Rick Hillier was very popular with the troops, and basically put them before his own career ambitions.  So, they replaced him with a more "politically sensitive" puppet.  I don't know a lot about what happened there, but it kinda smells, if you know what I mean.

The problems with democracies is that they don't make good fighters.  Once there are casualties on the battle field, then the public sentiment changes and the democratically elected government in charge of the military is more concerned about it's popularity with the voters than it is with what it's generals think.  So, we keep getting ourselves into these political quagmires where the generals say they need more troops, equipment and resources to win the war, and yet there's growing opposition to continuing the war on the home front.  And, as we all know, the politicians ultimately in charge of the military care more about their political careers than anything else, including the young kids they send into harms way.  A country has to REALLY have it's back to the wall and know that there is no option but to go to war for it's own survival before you can get the public resolve to fight to the end.  So, the situation in Canada regarding Afghanistan is about the same as it is in the US regarding Iraq.  There's some for staying the course, there's some against staying the course, and they're all against having had so many young people killed without having anything to show for it at the end of the day.  But, can't say we haven't been in this situation before, and we shoulda learned from it.


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## oldognewtrick

Nestor, well we have learned about Canadian Bacon, Boxing Day, Halloween Traditions, Tim Horton's, but the burning question I'm sure is on everyones mind is do Eskimos( uh I mean) Inuits kiss by rubbing noses? Or is this just another myth still to be debunked...


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## Nestor_Kelebay

I don't know if they still do that, but, yes.  It's called a "Kunik" in Inuit, but it's wrong to call it a "kiss".  It would be more appropriate to call it an "eskimo hug" because it's done by both men and women with both men and women.  It's simply an affectionate exchange with someone you feel close to, and doesn't have any sexual connotations at all.

Eskimo kissing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You see, lifestyles are changing in the north and I'd be surprised to see anything like this practice surviving.  Nowadays, the people in the north have satellite TV and they dress and behave just the same as you or I would on a cold day.  It's much more likely to see Inuit riding ski-doos, hunting with rifles, wearing modern parkas and shaking hands with people they meet than practicing any of their old traditional ways you might see depicted on TV or in the movies.  Nowadays, there are tour ships that go up north to Alaska, mostly to see the whales, glaciers breaking and the landscapes.  But, no one expects the people living up there to be living the same as they were 100 years ago.  They make souvenirs for the tourists out of seal skin and soap stone, but it's just to earn money so they can buy the same stuff as we do with our money.


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## oldognewtrick

Well there you go... another myth debunked. Next thing you'll tell me is that not all southern rednecks drive around in old Chevy pickups, look like Larry The Cable Guy, are married to their 1st cousin, drink PBR and live in a trailer parks. Wait thats Arkansas.:hide:


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## Nestor_Kelebay

What's PBR?

One thing Canadians are probably wondering about is whether the portrayal of racism in the southern US like we see on TV and in the movies is accurate.  My (and probably the typical Canadian's) understanding is that the south nowadays is really very different than the south of the 50's, 60's and 70's.  Apparantly, nowadays, there's not much difference (in a black person's perspective) between living in Mississippi or living in California or living in Minnesota.  That is, there is probably some degree of prejudice, but it's not appreciably worse in the South than it is anywhere else.  Is that about right?

(If this might be too sensitive a subject to discuss in this forum, then please let me know.  I meant no offense, nor do I want to put anyone on the spot.)

Also, I note that eastern Tennessee is in the Appalachian mountain range, or what is commonly referred to as "Appalachia".






Typically you find natural resources in older mountain ranges like mineral ores and coal because the uplifting of the Earth's crust followed by erosion of the mountains puts those ore deposits within easier reach of the surface.  Is eastern Tennessee (and Appalachia in general) fairing well (as Canada is) from a resource based economy, or are the people living in Appalachia having a tough time of it since coal is falling out of favour as a fuel source?

(I notice that on the above map, ALL of West Virginia and the biggest hunk of Pennsylvania are in Appalachia.  I notice that Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania is deep in Appalachian territory, and Pittsburgh is synonymous with the steel industry.  You need coal to make coke to make good steel.  Are coal and iron mining still a large part of the economy of Appalachia?)

Is "Knoxville, Tennessee close to "Fort Knox"?


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## oldognewtrick

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> What's PBR?
> 
> *PBR- Pabst Blue Ribbon*
> 
> One thing Canadians are probably wondering about is whether the portrayal of racism in the southern US like we see on TV and in the movies is accurate.  We have "white supremacists" up here, but they are a small group and rarely make themselves known.
> 
> Is there an active white supremacist movement in the southern US, or have they pretty well disappeared nowadays.  My understanding is that the south nowadays is really very different than the south of the 50's, 60's and 70's.  Apparantly, nowadays, there's not much difference to a black person between living in Mississippi or living in California.



I'm sure there are many "Racist" folks left in the south. What I find is that it's not just a white racist, there are black racist also. Is it a problem, yes. I don't have a problem with cultural mixing, my next door neighbor is of Hispanic descent, the black family across is a preacher, the lady across the street is Honduran. They let me live here and I enjoy it. It's nothing like you might see on T.V. or even as it was back in the 50 and 60's. It's an underlying issue but I've had some very good friends over the years who have different cultural backgrounds than I. If Alan Keys would run for president on a major ticket, I'd vote for him in a heartbeat.


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## Nestor_Kelebay

That's about the same as in Canada.  I have had every different race in my building.  As long as they pay their rent on time and don't cause any problems for me or their neighbors, then I say live and let live.

I only asked that question because your American TV news networks were commenting on the increased security around the White House before Barack Obama took the Oath of Office, and I was wondering why they would protect him more than any other President.  It wasn't until they mentioned the possibility of an assassination attempt that it dawned on me that that could be a very real concern.  But, to be honest, I thought to myself, "Wow, do those people still exist?"

Barack struck me (and prolly most people) as being a middle of the road, level headed, thoughtful kinda guy, and would prolly make an OK president, or at least no worse a president than anyone else.  It struck me as odd that anyone would want to kill him just cuz he wasn't white.

Following your post, I Googled Alan Keyes and came up with the Wikipedia biography on him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Keyes

He seemed like a level headed kinda guy until I came to this part:

Obama citizenship lawsuit
Keyes filed a lawsuit on November 14, 2008 against the California Secretary of State, then-Vice President-elect Joe Biden, and California's 55 Democratic electors, seeking to challenge Obama's eligibility for the US Presidency. The suit requests that Obama provide documentation that he is a natural born citizen of the United States.

Following Obama's inauguration, Keyes denied he had been constitutionally inaugurated, refused to call him president, and called him an "usurper" and a "radical communist".

I'll be the first to admit that having been born in Indonesia, Barack Obama would not be considered "a natural born citizen" of your country.  I expect that part of the constitution requires that the President be born in the US.  However, given that the overwhelming majority of Americans were willing to set aside that requirement, it strikes me as "sour grapes" that Alan Keyes wouldn't, and chose to pursue it through the court system.  Technically, Alan Keyes had a legal point, but it seems to me that on an issue like the choosing of a President, the will of the American people should prevail despite this requirement in your constitution.  (although I'm no constitutional expert by any means)  The Constitution establishes America as a  democracy, and to use it's rules to unseat a democratically chosen President seems to me to be "undemocratic".

Also, once elected and having taken the Oath of Office, to call Obama a "radical communist" strikes me as just sour grapes, or the same kind of partisanship politics that's a mainstay in both Ottawa and Washington.  I, for one, want the person who's supposed to be my "representative" in Ottawa to be open minded and willing to work with everyone, regardless of their political stripe, just as I would and I'm sure all Americans would as well.

I expect that Alan Keyes has excellent qualifications and a lot of experience, but I think he probably regrets some of his decisions in this particular matter.  After all, the President of the United States isn't just the head of your country.  The President of the United States, like it or not, also becomes a world leader.  The decisions he makes can and do affect everyone in the world, so, to that extent he has to carefully consider the broad implications of everything he says and does.  I'm sure that Alan Keyes realizes that calling Barack Obama a "radical communist" was a gross overstatement.  Barack leans left, but there's an awful lot of space between him and Fidel (who really was a radical and a communist).

So, what's PBR?  And, do you drink it out of a bottle or is it home made?


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## oldognewtrick

Ft Knox is just outside Louisville, KY nowhere near Knoxville, TN. 

PBR-Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer. If you ever come to Tennessee I will buy 1 or 6.

The Appalachians are some of the ares in the US with poverty. Partly because of diminished coal production and lack of industry.

Knoxville is a rather progressive city, home of the University Of Tennessee. I really like Knoxville, close to Gatlinburg and a generally pretty part of the state. We were in Gatlinburg a few weeks ago and it's a tourist destination, but it's changed over the years. The whole area of Pigeon Forge, Seiverville (home of Dolly Parton) Gatlinburg have turned into T-shirt-knick knack shops. Use to be a quaint getaway now its water parks and theme parks.

Google Alan Keys and see his info. A great man with conservative views.

O.K. this thing about rubbing noses, when ever I go outside in cold weather my nose starts running, rubbing noses with anyone else would probably not be well received here in the south. How the heck did that tradition get started/ Who was the first person to say "hey theres someone I've not seen in a while, lets rub runny noses". You know I've quit shaking hands with people till the swine flu goes away. I just don't have a clue where you would come up with the nose embrace to signify a warm embrace.....


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## Nestor_Kelebay

> O.K. this thing about rubbing noses, when ever I go outside in cold weather my nose starts running, rubbing noses with anyone else would probably not be well received here in the south. How the heck did that tradition get started/ Who was the first person to say "hey theres someone I've not seen in a while, lets rub runny noses". You know I've quit shaking hands with people till the swine flu goes away. I just don't have a clue where you would come up with the nose embrace to signify a warm embrace.....



It's just that when it's 50 or 60 degrees below outside, about the only part of you that isn't gonna be covered is your eyes cuz you need to be able to see where you're going.

So, the idea of rubbing noses allows for some form of intimate personal contact when about the only part of your body that's exposed is the area around your eyes.  Ya just moosh your parka hood against the other person's, and rub away.  If it feels good, it can't be bad for you.

Besides, everybody's doing it...


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## TxBuilder

I live in the South and the racism is pretty bad. I don't know if it's as bad as the TV portrays it but it's still pretty bad.


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## oldognewtrick

Tx, now tell the truth... the biggest form of racism in Texas is the Beef BBQ people discriminating against the pork BBQ folks right?


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## Nestor_Kelebay

I've always believed in evolution, and it seems obvious to me that direct personal experience is Mother Nature's best teacher.  When a calf gets a shock from an electric fence, it remembers never to go near any fence that looks like that again.

Prejudice is one of the strongest personal opinions we have.  But, it's not possible to become prejudice against a recognizable group without direct personal experience.  No matter how many negative things we hear or read about a certain group of people, we always temper our opinion with the knowledge that we don't have any direct personal experience to go by, and so we never actually formulate strong personal opinions until we have that direct personal experience.

So, (and I know people are prolly gonna bark at me for saying this), I believe that there is always some degree of truth in a stereotype.  That is, if a large group of people are prejudice, then I say the only way they could have gotten that way is if each one had direct personal experience that made him/her that way.  And, I say that because the alternative is to say that thousands of otherwise sane and responsible people are behaving totally irrationally.

So, I'm not saying I'm prejudice myself.  But what I am saying is that if I know that there is a large percentage of the population that is prejudice against a particular group, I don't dismiss it because to do so is to say that these otherwise normal level headed people are all behaving irrationally on only one subject, and that just doesn't happen.  I find that it's more probable that each of those people had sufficient personal experience with that group to have formed a negative opinion on their own.

So, let people bark at me.  I simply find that the above makes far more sense than to claim that "prejudice" people behave perfectly rationally in every other aspects of their lives, but suddenly behave irrationally when it comes to his one particular group.  That doesn't make as much sense to me as believing that those people all became prejudice because of their personal experiences.

And, I guess that's because I believe that studying the differences between the various human races is a legitimate scientific endeavor.  Unless and until we do that, we're gonna keep saying that we're all born equal and that we are made into who we become by the environment we grow up in.  Environment may play a role, but unless and until we look at this scientifically, we don't know how much of a role.

I refuse to believe that a chihuahua dog will grow into a great dane if raised in a sufficiently nurturing environment.  I find it more sensible to believe that there are important differences in the DNA of the chihuahua and the great dane that account for their different growth cycles.  However, as soon as we start looking at people through the same lens, then the crys of "Racism" start.  I feel that unless and until we study people scientifically, then to say we're all the same is just playing the ostrich.  We don't want to know the truth.  And, so my response to the cry of "You're a Racist!" is "You're an Ostrich!.  Keep your head in the sand!"


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## oldognewtrick

You bring up the point of canines, no matter what you do to a Chihuahua it will never be a Great Dane. Its not in its genetic make up to mutate into another breed of animal. 

I believe that prejudice is a learned behavior. When a child is born it doesn't know a thing, everything must be taught, even tolerance of others. When that child is brought up with hate,  it will probably hate others. If that child is brought up with love, it will probably love others. Dogs can be raised to be passive or they can be raised to be aggressive. I have a 85lb Shepard-Lab mix, she can be intimating to strangers, I've taken bones out of her mouth, taken food dishes away while she's eating, why? Cause it was better for me to find out if she was food aggressive than the kids when they were young. We taught her from the beginning that aggressive wasn't allowed. People are the same. Teach them to be racist and they will be, Teach them to hate and they will. Teach them to work together in a positive way and maybe that would be a benefit for society.

I do believe that a lot of prejudice is observance of others and differences in life experiences but I've found that the better you get to know someone of a different culture the more we have in common.

And I also believe we can have a civi discussion without barking at folks


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## TxBuilder

oldog/newtrick said:


> Tx, now tell the truth... the biggest form of racism in Texas is the Beef BBQ people discriminating against the pork BBQ folks right?


Not exactly. For the record in Texas if you want BBQ Pork your going to have to look for it.


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## TxBuilder

Nestor,
What we qualify as personnel experience is not limited to direct contact. One of the wonderful expressions of our existence is empathy. It works in both a negative and positive context. Also our understanding of what is rational can only be understood through the contrast of other cultures. Within our independent cultures we find very little wrong and yet very much distinguishable. It's only through outside perspective that we gain the ability to rationally accept morality. As this is defined though our singular perspective all we have is right. It takes the third perspective culturally, or anthropomorphic visions of god to acquire the contrast that leads to negative postulations of other races. To say you are prejudice is merely to say that you accept the perception of an outside race our influence provided by the culture to which you participate.


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## Nestor_Kelebay

Oldog/Newtrick & TxBuilder:

     I can no more accept that you can teach someone to hate a person or group of people than you can teach someone to love that person or group of people.  On matters of the heart like this, we each make up our own minds.  You can train a dog to do what you want, but we humans tend to make up our own minds on how we feel about things.

     Both my father and mother were prejudice against jews their whole life.  I see them as being different in many respects from the catholics, hindus, agnostics and athiests I've associated with, but I bear them no ill will whatsoever.  Those jews I've met in person or online seem to think much the same way I do, and so I don't find them objectionable to be around the way my parent's did/do.  My mother believed every jew wanted to take over the world at everyone else's expense.  I don't even know if she's aware that the Shalom Mission here in Winnipeg feeds the poor and homeless every Christmas and Thanksgiving, and provides a place out of the cold for them to go the rest of the time in the winter.

     For me to make my point, you will have to decide if two fundamental points are true or not:

1.  My first point is that direct personal experience is more influential in shaping our opinions on any subject than anything else, like things we've read or learned from others.  If you got attacked by a dog, you're going to be wary of dogs no matter how much you read and how many people tell you that you have nothing to fear from dogs.

2.  Prejudice is one of the strongest personally held opinions, and it can't be taught.  There is a difference between being told something and knowing in your heart that it's true.  For example, if someone tells you that someone is a drunken lazy slob, you file that piece of information away, but you don't form an opinion on that person because you yourself don't have any personal experience to go by, and you know not to trust word of mouth because it may be biased.  No matter how many people tell you negative things about a particular person, you realize you've never met that person and so you reserve judgement knowing that you have no first hand knowledge to go by.  It's only once you've met them that you form your own opinion based on what you've observed.  It's only once you have first hand knowledge from direct personal experience that you have the confidence to form your own opinion.

My point is that if millions of people in the US are prejudice against a particular group, then:

1. I cannot believe that all of these Americans all blindly accepted what they heard on TV or on the radio or from their parents about that group without question that information.  Human brains aren't wired that way.  We each acknowledge someone else's opinion, but none of us will form opinions strong enough to be called "prejudice" or "hatred" based on unsubstantiated information.  The only way any of us will form strong personal opinions is through direct personal contact and personal experience.

2.  To say that those millions of people in the US are "prejudice" is to say that they're all behaving irrationally.  These are people that behave perfectly rationally in every other aspect of their lives.  I simply can't believe that so many people would have such a peculiar mental problem in only one aspect of their daily life by coincidence.

So, I for one, feel that it should be OK to scientifically study the various human races.  We can't do that now because scientists get their funding through grants, and no one is going to fund such a study because they're going to be labeled as racist.  But, the bottom line is that no one really wants to look under that rock because they know that what they're gonna find is probably going to be awkward and politically poisonous to deal with.  I feel that it's better to look under the rock and to deal with what we find than to keep our heads in the sand and remain ignorant about it.  The way we have been dealing with it is stupidity on stilts, by claiming widespread prejudice is a "quirk" of the south.  All them otherwise normal people down there are just plumb crazy when it comes to that particular subject, ain't no rhyme nor reason to it.  I don't believe that and neither does anyone else.  We're just happier swallowing that line than looking under the rock.


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## TxBuilder

I'm only disagreeing that you can't be taught prejudice. I think in debating many well spoken and intelligent people they apply their personnel experience without ever realizing that they are smarter than the majority. 
Nestor your clearly intelligent. That puts you in the minority. It also disallows you to insinuate understanding of the ignorant thought process because it's not some thing your contesting with. 
I understand that it's a logical self defeatist argument but my experience with racism in a population were the hated races race is minimal, is that the idealization and thus the stereotype  is what becomes hated. Not necessarily the actuality of said race.


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## oldognewtrick

TxBuilder said:


> I'm only disagreeing that you can't be taught prejudice. I think in debating many well spoken and intelligent people they apply their personnel experience without ever realizing that they are smarter than the majority.
> Nestor your clearly intelligent. That puts you in the minority. It also disallows you to insinuate understanding of the ignorant thought process because it's not some thing your contesting with.
> I understand that it's a logical self defeatist argument but my experience with racism in a population were the hated races race is minimal, is that the idealization and thus the stereotype  is what becomes hated. Not necessarily the actuality of said race.



Yep, what he said.....

I can see Nestors point of view and agree to a point but my limited experience tells me that for the most part its not so. Nestor you do bring up some good points and I'd still like to buy you a PBR if your ever in the middle of Tennessee. (thats a Pabst Blue Ribbon) oh, racism/discrimination is not limited to the south. All areas of the USA suffer from this condition.


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## travelover

Based on my experience on other forums, I'd suggest sticking to home repair topics and steering wide around political, religious and racial topics. :2cents:


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## inspectorD

It's all fun and games until......someone throws a :banana::banana::banana:


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## Nestor_Kelebay

Yeah, all of us know Travelover is right.  This topic belongs in the same bag as handguns, capital punishment and abortion.  They're all problems with no good solution.

So, I agree.  Why argue about it and get our blood pressure up when it's not going to make any difference anyway.  I guess I just don't like to be told by the media that unless I agree with the politically correct version of things, then I'm a racist.  I prefer to think of myself as a realist.

Anyhow, point taken, Travelover correct, end discussion, over and out.


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## travelover

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> Yeah, all of us know Travelover is right.  This topic belongs in the same bag as handguns, capital punishment and abortion.  They're all problems with no good solution.
> 
> So, I agree.  Why argue about it and get our blood pressure up when it's not going to make any difference anyway.  I guess I just don't like to be told by the media that unless I agree with the politically correct version of things, then I'm a racist.  I prefer to think of myself as a realist.
> 
> Anyhow, point taken, Travelover correct, end discussion, over and out.



I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but in other forums the hard feelings in the political discussions boiled over into the other topics and........well it got ugly. I must say this is a pretty civil bunch here. :beer:


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## TxBuilder

Alls well that ends well.


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## oldognewtrick

Nestor_Kelebay said:


> Yeah, all of us know Travelover is right.  This topic belongs in the same bag as handguns, capital punishment and abortion.  They're all problems with no good solution.
> 
> So, I agree.  Why argue about it and get our blood pressure up when it's not going to make any difference anyway.  I guess I just don't like to be told by the media that unless I agree with the politically correct version of things, then I'm a racist.  I prefer to think of myself as a realist.
> 
> Anyhow, point taken, Travelover correct, end discussion, over and out.



Nestor, I sure hope you don't feel that we are /were arguing about the problems of our society. No malice was intended on my part about your observations of US culture. I really enjoy your prospective and value your comments.

Now on to other topics, how long does the snow cover last in Winnipeg when the white stuff starts falling? Does it come and go or do you have snow cover the entire winter?


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## Nestor_Kelebay

oldog/newtrick said:


> Nestor, I sure hope you don't feel that we are /were arguing about the problems of our society. No malice was intended on my part about your observations of US culture. I really enjoy your prospective and value your comments.
> 
> Now on to other topics, how long does the snow cover last in Winnipeg when the white stuff starts falling? Does it come and go or do you have snow cover the entire winter?



Oldog/Newtrick:

Not at all.  In fact, what I've found on every DIY Q&A forum I've posted on is that people actually like to hear ideas and theories that challenge conventional thinking.  We all get tired of the same old propoganda, and like new ideas and fresh thinking that stimulates our own minds.

Up here, as the cold weather sets in, we will have light snow (typically occuring in late October) that melts when it hits the ground, or that falls at night and melts with the higher day time temperatures.  Once it gets cold enough that the snow doesn't melt because day time temperatures are below freezing, then we call that snow "permanent snow".  Permanent snow is snow that will remain until spring when all the snow melts.

This year we've been really lucky.  We just got our first snow fall a few days ago and much of it has melted.  There's still a lot of it around, so it's possible that this year the first snow to fall might also be our first permanent snow.

Also, most people that live in the south think that our roads are covered with snow all winter.  That's true of country roads, or the roads in small towns.  However, in cities like Winnipeg, it'll only be the back lanes and side streets that'll have hard packed snow on them all winter.  The main thoroughfares have enough traffic that the heat from the car exhausts will melt the snow, especially at intersections where the cars stop for red lights.  It can be -20 deg. Celsius and the main routes through Winnipeg will be WET or even DRY, depending on how much traffic there is.  And, it's all cuz of the RADIANT heat from car exhaust pipes.  The radiant heat heats the road, and that's what keeps the moisture on it from freezing.

Also, people often presume that ice has to melt into water before it disappears, and that's not true.  It's called "sublimation".  After a snow fall, we'll sweep the snow off of our cars just like anyone else, but there will typically be snow (or frozen water of one form or another) still on the car.  If you don't clean that snow or ice off, it'll disappear by itself without melting.  Even if the daytime highs are below -20 deg. C outside for weeks on end (as it has been many times in my memory) the snow or ice on your car will disappear on it's own.  What happens is that the heat inside the car from the car heater will provide energy to the snow on the outside, and the frozen ice will absorb that energy and turn directly into a vapour.  So, after a snowfall, everyone's car will have snow on it, but within a week or so afterwards, all the cars will be free of snow, and it's all because of the thermal energy from inside the car causing the ice on the outside to sublimate directly into water vapour.

It's kinda interesting to see stuff like that happening cuz it reminds you that so very much of what happens in the natural world around us is imperceptible, but yet can be very important.  For example, before Isaac Newton did his thing, asking why something fell when you dropped it was considered a stupid question.  And, that was just because gravity was so much a part of our life experience, that we couldn't concieve of a situation of there NOT being gravity to make things fall.  So, there's stuff happening around us all the time that we're completely unaware of, and every time someone discovers one of those things, the rest of the world goes "Ah Hah.  Now we know why that happens." and a whole new technology is born.  People noticing what a current in a wired did led to the telegraph and the radio and morse code and the electric motor and to your cell phone.  That's cuz that current in a wire generated an electomagnetic field that was strong and powerful, but imperceptible to us.

Anyhow, up here, the first snow will fall normally fall in October sometimes, and the permanent snow will typically come in mid-November or so.  Spring melt will typically start near the end of March, but we've had some pretty bad blizzards in early April.  By May, there won't be much snow left.  Typically, about the only ice you'll see in May will be the piles of snow they clear off parking lots cuz they take a long time to melt.  The melting is really noticable once the night time temperatures get above zero cuz then the snow is melting 24/7.  And, of course, people here are happier and friendlier every spring when you can go outside with just a jacket on.  We put up with winter, we don't enjoy it.

I'd like to live where people celebrate and run outside to make snowballs and snowmen when it snows cuz they so seldom see the stuff.  Up here, snow, like the geese flying south, is a sure sign of the coming winter.


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