# Romex under raised foundation help please



## remout (Oct 15, 2015)

121 y/o cypress cottage, massive floor joist with two layers of 1" barge board on top. Top layer is the floor. Plan is to use 12/2 with ground indoor romex. 

I want to run electrical from flush mount floor receptacles down through the floor and over to the breaker panel. I'm not sure about the rules for routing and securing the romex to and or through the joists. Where I live the crawl space is considered dry.

Can I staple the romex to the side of the joists? If so does it matter where, top middle or bottom? 

Is there a rule regarding max spacing between staples?

When I cross joists at an angle, can I go under the joists or must I drill through?

Many thanks!


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## JoeD (Oct 15, 2015)

Yes you can staple to the side of the joist. Minimum distance between support is 4 feet. Electrical doesn't care if go under or through. You need to not structurally damage the joists if going through. That would be a different code.


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## bud16415 (Oct 15, 2015)

I am not a fan of floor mount outlets. Is there no way to get them in the walls?


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## remout (Oct 15, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> I am not a fan of floor mount outlets. Is there no way to get them in the walls?



Yeah, me either.
I'm always hesitant to write "no way". The walls are solid wood. Going from the top it would mean removing and reinstalling quite a bit of 100 y/o face nailed floor boards in the loft.  This would then expose the interior of the wall, solid wood barge boards. From the bottom I'd have to get through 6 X 6 beam (cypress was dirt cheap here 121 years ago) running along edge of wall, then I'd still have the barge boards to deal with.

Previous owner's answer was external boxes and external conduit, pretty ugly.


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## nealtw (Oct 15, 2015)

Going thru the joists is usually ok, your holes want to be in the middle third.
We did a reno on a house that was just 2x4 nailed together, the whole house, floors and all, no joists. The electricions just cut a path with a chain saw for the wires, talkj about ugly


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## slownsteady (Oct 15, 2015)

Have you looked at modern surface-mount electrical? It looks a whole lot better than it used to. Nice square boxes and wire chases that can be painted.


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## CallMeVilla (Oct 15, 2015)

I prefer to space my staples closer than 4' apart.  Typically end up no more than 24" to keep the run tight and straight.  You can use 12/2 ROMEX but I really like 12/2 UF (underground feed) in a crawl space because the casing is much tougher and resistant to weather and rodents.  A bit harder to work with but the benefits outweigh the stiffness.


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## bud16415 (Oct 16, 2015)

remout said:


> Yeah, me either.
> I'm always hesitant to write "no way". The walls are solid wood. Going from the top it would mean removing and reinstalling quite a bit of 100 y/o face nailed floor boards in the loft.  This would then expose the interior of the wall, solid wood barge boards. From the bottom I'd have to get through 6 X 6 beam (cypress was dirt cheap here 121 years ago) running along edge of wall, then I'd still have the barge boards to deal with.
> 
> Previous owner's answer was external boxes and external conduit, pretty ugly.



I agree with SnS some of it now looks a lot better than the old garage looking wiring. I would also like not making the penetrations thru all that old exposed wood any larger than I had to. If it were mine I would weigh the looks against the negatives, the biggest being dirt getting in the outlets on the floor. My old house came with them in the floors for similar reasons dealing with old hand hewn beams and electrification of a house. I spent weeks moving them up into the walls. Understand you have a whole different set of problems and its the floors or surface. 

The rest of the information given above sounds good to me.


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## hornetd (Oct 16, 2015)

Some of this has already been covered but I thought that I would put it in one place.  Non Metallic Type (NM) cable must be supported within Eight Inches of a non clamping box entry or within Twelve Inches of a clamped box entry (314.17).  NM must be supported not further apart than every Four and one half Feet.  A bored hole is considered a point of support.  The rub is that it must closely follow the building surface so you will usually  have to staple it more often than Four and one half Feet lest it sag.  Not to be quarrelsome but you cannot run NM that is smaller than Three Number Eight or Two Number Six American Wire Gauge (8/3 or 6/2 AWG) under the joist unless it is run on running boards.  On the side of the joists it should be run at least One and one quarter Inches from any edge that maybe penetrated by nails, screws or other fasteners.  In your case good practice would be to use only the middle third of a joist's height to fasten the cable to.  That keeps it away from either edge by far enough to be unlikely to be damaged.  Don't bend it tighter than a radius of five times it's largest width at the inside of the bend.  That means that you  will want the change from the side of a joist to a bored hole through the joist to be loose enough to not visually distort the jacket.  

For ease of running the NM cable through bored holes you will want all of the holes to be bored in a right angle run to the direction of the joist.  If you do not have the use of a drill that will fit between the joists so as to bore at a right angle then bore every other hole at an upward angle in one direction and come back the other way drilling the remaining holes at the opposing upward angle.  Once you do that you can feed the cable up through one hole and back down through the other two joists at a time.  It is easier to pull the cable directly in a line through holes that are drilled at a right angle to the face of the joists however.  So you may want to rent a right angle drill motor and buy a short Forstner bit or a stubby auger bit.  

334.15 Exposed Work
In exposed work, except as provided in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in 334.15(A) thro ugh (C).  

(A) To Follow Surface. Cable shall closely follow the surface of the building finish or of running boards.

(C) In Unfinished Basements and Crawl Spaces. Where cable is run at angles with joists in unfinished basements and crawl space s, it shall be permissible to secure cables not smaller than two 6 AWG or three 8 AWG conductors directly to the lower edges of the joists. Smaller cables shall be run either through bored holes in joists or on running boards. Nonmetallic-sheathed cable installed on the wall of an unfinished basement shall be permitted to be installed in a listed conduit or tubing or shall be protected in accordance with 300.4. Conduit or tubing shall be provided with a suitable insulating bushing or adapter at the point the cable enters the raceway. The sheath of the nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall extend through the conduit or tubing and into the outlet or device box not less than 6 mm (1&#8260;4 in.). The cable shall be secured within 300 mm (12 in.) of the point where the cable enters the conduit or tubing. Metal conduit, tubing, and metal outlet boxes shall be connected to an equipment grounding conductor complying with the provisions of 250.86 and 250.148.  

334.24 Bending Radius
Bends in Types NM, NMC, and NMS cable shall be so made that the cable will not be damaged. The radius of the curve of the inner edge of any bend during or after installation shall not be less than five times the diameter of the cable.  

334.30 Securing and Supporting
Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be supported and secured by staples, cable ties, straps, hanger s, or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m (41&#8260;2 ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting.  Flat cables shall not be stapled on edge.  Sections of cable protected from physical damage by raceway shall not be required to be secured within the raceway.


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## remout (Oct 17, 2015)

Thanks Fellas! I really appreciate all this advice.


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## frodo (Oct 18, 2015)

I cable trayed mine under the house

i used 3''  2 hole straps  every other joist in a straight line from the meter to the other end of the house

then stapled to the side of the joists as i branched off.  it is neat, clean,  not a bunch of wires run ever where


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