# L flashing used on new roof ok?



## willingtolearn (Dec 1, 2011)

I recently enlarged my existing covered patio. My contractor demoed my existing one. My new patio is 16 x 24. It has a gable roof. I noticed he did not use step flashing. He chalked a line 3in from the roof line and then used a grinder with diamond blade and cut through the hardie plank/board. He then used 2 pieces of L flashing (4 total) and a top piece. He then slid the L flashing up behind the hardie siding. I do have a attic ladder into the roof and I don't see any felt paper under the flashing. There is felt on the roof sheathing though. Obviously I'm not happy with his work. How much more protection would step flashing have been. It seems to me he took the easier route.

Thanks

willing


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 1, 2011)

Welcome to House Repair Talk.

Could you post a pic of the area you are referring to? Attaching pics is easy, scroll down from the reply box and click on "Manage Attachments".


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## willingtolearn (Dec 2, 2011)

I will try to take pics tommorrow.

Thanks


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## willingtolearn (Dec 2, 2011)

Here is some pics. Aside from the top piece looks like he used 2 long pieces. On the right side its caulked with geocel as well as the left. I'm assuming the L flashing must be 6in.


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 2, 2011)

At first it looked like a pretty good install till I got to the last couple pics. Shingles should be step flashed in a wall not installed with what looks like track flashing. This will not work. Flashing is a two part equation, you have step flashing on each shingle course then counter flashing that covers the top edge of the step flashing. This really isn't rocket science, they print the instructions on the wrappers of the shingle bundles. If they try and tell you this is the way to flash a wall, tell them they are sadly mistaken.


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## nealtw (Dec 2, 2011)

Yes to what Oldog said. 
On a side note. Does your main roof have any soffit vents? I see solid blocking between rafters and there should be a vent in every forth one.


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## willingtolearn (Dec 3, 2011)

Yes the soffit has vent holes in everyone.
 What will happen if they leave the track flashing?  Should kickout flashing be used also? Also there is no sheathing behind the hardieplank, that is how all the new homes in hawaii are made. A home like this goes just short of a million bucks; ridiculous. Also is no step flashing a building code violation. I was hoping the building inspector could help out.

Thanks Willing


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 3, 2011)

Yes, kick out flashing should be used at the bottom. This keeps water from being channeled behind the siding. I'm not sure what codes require where you live, but shingle MFGs require step flashing. Non compliance to installation specs can void any material warranties.


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## JTGP (Dec 3, 2011)

Willingtolearn, What is going to be done to solve this?


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## Perry525 (Dec 4, 2011)

I suggest you take a walk and look at other homes and check out their flashing, then go on-line and learn how it should have been done.


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## willingtolearn (Dec 4, 2011)

I agree with all of you 100%. I'm just trying to figure out a solution. This contractor was highly recomended by a good friend of mine. Turns out this contractor knows people I know.(Thats what happens when you live on an island.) The original contract called for him to build to plan. The plan just calls for flashing, it does not call for what kind. I called and asked him why he didn't use step; his response was it would be real hard to get step inbetween the hardieboard and frame. He said I will not have problems. Yes all the other homes have step flashing and most have kickouts where the roof terminates on a wall.
  If worse comes to be and I call another roofer to do the job right, do they have to tear up the whole roof, or can they just remove the tabs of shingles closest to the wall?
  This has been one very stressful job.
Thanks
Willing


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 4, 2011)

What shingle mfg did you use?


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## willingtolearn (Dec 5, 2011)

certainteed.


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## inspectorD (Dec 5, 2011)

Bottom line...he is giving you a line of garbage.
Step flashing is easy to do on that wall. The existing flashing will be used as a counter flashing that covers over the top of the new step flashing you install. Give him the chance to come back and fix the problem, after you explain that " bad press  on a small island" is more expensive than them doing the job correctly.


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## joecaption (Dec 5, 2011)

Installing Hardee planks need sheathing and Tyvek under it, (Download the install manual on the James Hardee web site) also any cuts he made needed to have the cut areas resealed with latex paint before the caulking took place, exposted cuts will cause the material near the cut to flake off.
In the last picture it looks like he ended the counter flashing right where there's a butt seam and is counting on the caulking to keep water out.
I would have continued it out about 1" at least passed the shingles so water would drop into the gutters. 
Hardee board never lays perfectly flat againt the piece below it so without the sheathing and Tyvek under it water and wind can get behind the siding, if anything hits the siding with no support behind it it's going to blow a hole in it.


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## willingtolearn (Dec 5, 2011)

Joe caption your right. Also thats not counter flashing, that IS the flashing. Thousands of these half to 1 million homes are made with no sheathing behind the hardie plank, hardie board. 

  Also If I do have hire someone else to finish the job correctly, does the whole roof need to come off?

Willing


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 5, 2011)

willingtolearn said:


> Joe caption your right. Also thats not counter flashing, that IS the flashing. Thousands of these half to 1 million homes are made with no sheathing behind the hardie plank, hardie board.
> 
> Also If I do have hire someone else to finish the job correctly, does the whole roof need to come off?
> 
> Willing



Without being on the roof to say for sure, you SHOULD only have to remove the shingle near the wall from the sofit to the ridge.


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## joecaption (Dec 6, 2011)

There's just a few I see that were left short for some reason that may need replacing.


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## willingtolearn (Dec 6, 2011)

I talked to him today. He said the reason he did not use step is the tight space and also there is no blocking behind. He used the metal studs as blocking. He said the previous roof had blocking built into the studs as new construction. I told him maybe we can step flash over the continuous using it as blocking. I'm assuming the metal studs are 16 oc. Remember there is no sheathing behind the hardie only studs. He told me he will put kick outs in. 

He's not sure about putting step over continuous. This might be a bad idea also, but I'm willing to try anything. He says he stands behind his work and I can call him even 15 years down the road. He laughed and said maybe not 20 years.

Willing


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 6, 2011)

willingtolearn said:


> He said the previous roof had blocking built into the studs as new construction.
> Willing



If it was there before, where did it go? Why if blocking was removed was it not replaced?


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## nealtw (Dec 6, 2011)

It should have been easy to install backing blocks from the attic above the patio.


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## willingtolearn (Dec 6, 2011)

Hey guys I'm assuming that where the original roof was it had blocks. Also it's a 2 story house so I don't believe its accessable from the attic. What do you think about putting the step over the L flashing. I know its not proper but even if its 50% better I would have more of a piece of mind.

Willing


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## nealtw (Dec 6, 2011)

Did he build the new roof? Some one should be able to take that flashing off and install blocking in an hour. I was talking about the space inside that roof but I guess the siding was left in place there.


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## willingtolearn (Dec 7, 2011)

Yes thats correct. He left the siding in place, and on the right side there is a hole from the original roof, he covered it with tyvek. Above the new roof he just chalked a 3" line and cut a hole following the new roof with a grinder with diamond blade. 

Thanks
Willing


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## willingtolearn (Dec 10, 2011)

My contractor is going to send his roofer out next week to take a look to see if step can be put over the L flashing. I had too other roofing companies come out to look at the job.
   Both said they probably wouldn't touch it because its a new roof and It might invalidate the contractors warranty. I told them I don't have any warranty on paper. On guy said it was amazing how he got the flashing under the siding. I asked him how they would do it. He told me they would they would reuse the existing flashing or just run new flashing up against the wall. I then said how would he waterproof the flashing against the siding. He mumbled something about acrylic or something, very vague. By the ways these 2 companies won the best roofer awards in the state survey! 
  If any good roofers want to come to Hawaii and fix my roof I'll buy you a plane ticket over here!

Willing to learn.


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 10, 2011)

willingtolearn said:


> My contractor is going to send his roofer out next week to take a look to see if step can be put over the L flashing. I had too other roofing companies come out to look at the job.
> Both said they probably wouldn't touch it because its a new roof and It might invalidate the contractors warranty. I told them I don't have any warranty on paper. On guy said it was amazing how he got the flashing under the siding. I asked him how they would do it. He told me they would they would reuse the existing flashing or just run new flashing up against the wall. I then said how would he waterproof the flashing against the siding. He mumbled something about acrylic or something, very vague. By the ways these 2 companies won the best roofer awards in the state survey!
> *  If any good roofers want to come to Hawaii and fix my roof I'll buy you a plane ticket over here!*
> Willing to learn.



Packing my bag as you read this

It's not that difficult, all they have to do is remove the shingle closet to the wall, remove the track flashing. Since there is no blocking behind the siding, install some blocking between the studs. Fill the shingles and new step flashing back in and fabricate new flashing to slide up under the siding and cover the top edge of the step flashing. Make sure there is a hem on the bottom of the new counter flashing to keep the bottom edge true and straight. 

The flashing at the bottom is back wards. The siding is over the track flashing. They have tucked their raincoat into their pants (where have I heard that expression before?)


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## inspectorD (Dec 10, 2011)

oldog/newtrick said:


> Packing my bag as you read this
> 
> It's not that difficult, all they have to do is remove the shingle closet to the wall, remove the track flashing. Since there is no blocking behind the siding, install some blocking between the studs. Fill the shingles and new step flashing back in and fabricate new flashing to slide up under the siding and cover the top edge of the step flashing. Make sure there is a hem on the bottom of the new counter flashing to keep the bottom edge true and straight.
> 
> The flashing at the bottom is back wards. The siding is over the track flashing. They have tucked their raincoat into their pants (where have I heard that expression before?)



um...er...I just want to stay out of it. All this flashing with raincoats just gets people in trouble.:hide:


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 10, 2011)

inspectorD said:


> um...er...I just want to stay out of it. All this flashing with raincoats just gets people in trouble.:hide:



Yea, but I'm on my way to Hawaii and you're stuck knee deep in the frozen cranberry bog.


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## nealtw (Dec 11, 2011)

It is hard to imagine why the blocking wasn't installed when the structure was built and when the siding was removed for the flashing the builder should have been called back to solve this problem. If the contractor was good he would have seen this coming and if the roofer was good he would have stopped until it was fixed.

I would like to suggest a fix and the roofers here can let me know where I am wrong.
I would cut that flashing at the roof line and remove the top half without damaging the roofing. Now that the open wall is exposed pieces of 2x4s or 2x3s can be cut to fit between the studs and toenailed in place.
With a sawsall I would go behind the siding and cut any nails holding the siding for a few inches. Install the step flashing under each shingle, the flashing may have to be cut to fit below the siding cut. Slip in another flashing behind the siding and house wrap and make sure it covers the top of the step flashing. Re-nail the bottom of the siding which will hold the flashing also.


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## willingtolearn (Dec 12, 2011)

I will present ideas to my contractor when he shows up. He said the top half is the hard part. It's not hardie plank but 2 large sheets of hardie board and the brown trim piece. I will present these  solutions to him when I see him face to face. 
  By the way I have a good picture of why step flashing is better, but I'm still a little fuzzy on why L flashing is bad. Is the concern where water will flow under the shingles from the L flashing and find a hole thru the felt paper such as nail holes etc. 

willing


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 12, 2011)

willingtolearn said:


> By the way I have a good picture of why step flashing is better, but I'm still a little fuzzy on why L flashing is bad. Is the concern where water will flow under the shingles from the L flashing and find a hole thru the felt paper such as nail holes etc.
> 
> willing



Yep, thats it.


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## willingtolearn (Dec 13, 2011)

My contractor said theres 2 problems. He said metal studs is hard to nail too, and you would have to nail the step flash high; so he would not be able to put blocking up without taking the hardie board up and the brown belly band(trim). He said he's coming tommorrow to double check that they sealed the shingles to the flashing.

willing


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## inspectorD (Dec 13, 2011)

Hmmmm, First of all you can't nail anything to steel studs. They get self tapping screws just like the ones I see in your siding picture. Overall The job looks OK, but he just needs a little more education on transition areas.
If this was my job, I would have screwed a piece of wood to the metal studs at the flashing area sitting on the roof deck. This would enable me to install step flashing against something solid. Then you can tuck a piece of counter flashing under the siding, and over the piece of wood and over the top of the step flashing.
If you look at your roof, there are trim pieces already projecting into the transition areas of the siding.

See what he thinks.


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 13, 2011)

And, you DO NOT nail step flashing into the wall. Let me repeat, you DO NOT nail step flashing into the wall! Step flashing is nailed into the roof deck at the top, outer corner of the step flashing.

Did I mention, step flashing is NOT nailed in the wall?


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## inspectorD (Dec 13, 2011)

Like he said,,, but give it something solid to be pushed up against.
Did he mention not to screw it to the wall also?........:hide:


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## Roofmaster417 (Dec 13, 2011)

oldog/newtrick said:


> And, you DO NOT nail step flashing into the wall. Let me repeat, you DO NOT nail step flashing into the wall! Step flashing is nailed into the roof deck at the top, outer corner of the step flashing.
> 
> Did I mention, step flashing is NOT nailed in the wall?



Agreed.,Reason,,,,Your structure is moving and fastening to the wall also complicates a repair and or reroof.A simple tear off can turn into a PITA when step is nailed to the wall.

Step flashing is better IMO than continous hands down.I have always fastened the shingle into the step flashing.Step,shingle,fastener.

I have used continous in the late 80's and early 90's but in the midwest and south east and along the gulf coast it has been single over continous.


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## nealtw (Dec 13, 2011)

OK  I'll bite, why do you not nail the flashing to the wall, when siding is applied it is about a inch or so above the roof and nailed thru the flashing? I have been told this before and could never make sence of it.


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 13, 2011)

Siding should be nailed so as to not interfer with the step flashing. When we have a reroof with vinyl siding the J chanel and edge of siding must be taken loose to get the old step out. Step flashing should not be reused, it has holes in it.


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## nealtw (Dec 13, 2011)

Any day I learn something is a good day, Thank you.


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