# california going dry



## frodo

calif. governor,  asking for 25% reduction in water consumption.

if it was me,  drill a well and hide it,   :2cents:



http://www.salon.com/2015/04/01/californias_in_crisis_mode_gov_brown_announces_first_ever_mandatory_water_restrictions/

California&#8217;s in crisis mode: Gov. Brown announces first-ever mandatory water restrictions
California's epic, ongoing drought just made history again
LINDSAY ABRAMS  Follow
 Share  0   5     1  

TOPICS: CALIFORNIA DROUGHT, GOV. JERRY BROWN, WATER SHORTAGE, SUSTAINABILITY NEWS, NEWS

California's in crisis mode: Gov. Brown announces first-ever mandatory water restrictions
FILE - In this July 15, 2014, file photo sprinklers water a lawn in Sacramento, Calif. (AP Photo/Rich Pedroncelli, File) (Credit: AP)
Facing an ongoing drought of historic proportions, California Gov. Jerry Brown Wednesday announced the state&#8217;s first-ever mandatory water restrictions.

On Brown&#8217;s executive order, the L.A. Times reports, the state water board is to cut water usage by 25 percent, a move expected to save 1.5 million acre-feet of water over the coming nine months.

It&#8217;s an unprecedented move for an unprecedented situation. The Sierra Nevada&#8217;s snowpack &#8212; which replenishes streams and rivers during the typically dry summer and fall &#8212; is only at about 5 percent of its historical average for April 1, the date considered to be its peak. That means this dismal amount of snow is about all California&#8217;s going to get to carry it through the coming months. The official measurement isn&#8217;t due out until later Wednesday, but to say this shatters records is an understatement: the previous low was just 25 percent below average.

&#8220;It&#8217;s a different world,&#8221; he said during Wednesday&#8217;s announcement, which he made from a dry patch of grass in the Sierra Nevada. &#8220;We have to act differently.&#8221;

The restrictions, importantly, don&#8217;t affect agriculture, which is responsible for about 80 percent of the state&#8217;s water usage. But it will impact nearly everything else &#8212; as a press release details, the order will:

Replace 50 million square feet of lawns throughout the state with drought tolerant landscaping in partnership with local governments;
 -Direct the creation of a temporary, statewide consumer rebate program to replace old appliances with more water and energy efficient models;
 -Require campuses, golf courses, cemeteries and other large landscapes to make significant cuts in water use; and
 -Prohibit new homes and developments from irrigating with potable water unless water-efficient drip irrigation systems are used, and ban watering of ornamental grass on public street media






california, needs a desalination plant like the ones in australia


----------



## slownsteady

The rest of the southwest is desert. It's about to grow.


----------



## nealtw

price of veggies is going up.


----------



## Chris

As much as I hate jerry brown and I do hate his stupid railway to nowhere tax. We are in a drought, the same drought we have been in for the last 50 years. That and the California  way of one upping your neighbor by having bigger and better yards is not helping.

That being said we have plenty of water but we don't know how to manage it. We stop giving water to farms and we triple the rates for people who use more than others but then it is ok to have twenty golf courses in Palm Springs running water all day because the elite want it. We let 98% of all rivers dump into the ocean because it is illegal to capture that water. We can't capture rain water because then we are keeping it from the ones who want to charge us for it. Our water districts  dump millions of gallons of reclaimed water down the drains daily because they can't get rid if it fast enough because putting pipe in the ground costs money.

That and this state somehow thinks we are a tropical paradise when we are really an arid desert.

I'll stop now.


----------



## slownsteady

an understandable rant.


----------



## nealtw

Rant aside, most of that will be changing soon , very soon. Los vagas in the desert dosn't make sense but some of the things they are  to manage and save water is going in the right direction.


----------



## Sparky617

Farmers definitely need to get smarter on how they irrigate in California, and many already have.  To me it doesn't make a lot of sense to grow water intensive crops like rice and cotton in California when they can be grown elsewhere without the huge impact on the water supply.  That said, most of our fresh produce comes from either, CA, FL, TX or now more often than not Mexico and Central America. 

Locavore sounds all well and good, but I do kind of like to have salad, strawberries, and fresh vegetables year round.  Absent a greenhouse you can't grow it year round in NC.


----------



## nealtw

They should have been working on this befroe the lake went dry.


----------



## Chris

Half of our LA Cities require you to keep a green lawn, My grandfather lives in Glendale and if he doesn't keep a green lawn he gets a fine but if he waters on a day that is not Wednesday, Friday or Sunday he gets a fine. If he uses too much water he gets a fine.

Where I live nobody should have a lawn, It is around 100 degrees and dry all summer long, we waste a lot of water keeping them alive yet no one goes outside to use them until winter. I have a very very small lawn of about 8' x 30' that is shaded so that helps.

I am a pipeline contractor and when I install a new fire or water line I am required to flush it for 5 minutes at full bore. I did a job last year that had 15 fire hydrants and 13, 10" fire risers that all had to be flushed at full bore for five minutes, we wasted more water in two days than a city does in a year. I flooded the Santa Ana river. Nobody seems to care about that waste.


----------



## nealtw

Plan for the future, every dissaster is an opportunity.City wide grey water systems, cisterns in every yard. and lawn removal.


----------



## Sparky617

nealtw said:


> Plan for the future, every dissaster is an opportunity.City wide grey water systems, cisterns in every yard. and lawn removal.



In the western US capturing water in rain barrels and cisterns can be illegal.  A number of California cities do use reclaimed water for landscape watering.  My own town in NC did it and new neighborhoods along the route a getting reclaimed water for landscaping and in office settings using it for the chiller plant.  The main goes right behind my house but my neighborhood didn't get plumbed because the one existing neighborhood they did plumb pitched such a fit about the mess that they stopped the program in new neighborhoods.  Ours was supposed to be the second existing neighborhood to be plumbed.

My employer uses the reclaimed water on the chiller plant for two 6 story office buildings and stopped taking a million gallons (so I'm told) a month of drinking water for the HVAC system.   There are a lot of things we can do to conserve water and California needs to be at the forefront of this effort as they have 10% of the population all living in a very fertile desert.


----------



## nealtw

Sparky617 said:


> In the western US capturing water in rain barrels and cisterns can be illegal.  A number of California cities do use reclaimed water for landscape watering.  My own town in NC did it and new neighborhoods along the route a getting reclaimed water for landscaping and in office settings using it for the chiller plant.  The main goes right behind my house but my neighborhood didn't get plumbed because the one existing neighborhood they did plumb pitched such a fit about the mess that they stopped the program in new neighborhoods.  Ours was supposed to be the second existing neighborhood to be plumbed.
> 
> My employer uses the reclaimed water on the chiller plant for two 6 story office buildings and stopped taking a million gallons (so I'm told) a month of drinking water for the HVAC system.   There are a lot of things we can do to conserve water and California needs to be at the forefront of this effort as they have 10% of the population all living in a very fertile desert.



All those rules will be a thing of the past soon, the deniers have caused a lot of time to be waisted. WE can grow here but we are going to be short of water too. Who knew you should water trees in Jan. when it dosn't rain for a month, some died.


----------



## slownsteady

Sparky617 said:


> Farmers definitely need to get smarter on how they irrigate in California, and many already have.  To me it doesn't make a lot of sense to grow water intensive crops like rice and cotton in California when they can be grown elsewhere without the huge impact on the water supply.  That said, most of our fresh produce comes from either, CA, FL, TX or now more often than not Mexico and Central America.
> 
> Locavore sounds all well and good, but I do kind of like to have salad, strawberries, and fresh vegetables year round.  Absent a greenhouse you can't grow it year round in NC.



Combine the water problems with the rising cost of fuel (not happening right now, but will happen again) and there is a large argument for local farming. Problem, here in the NE, is that land is too valuable for farming. Only the developers can afford large tracts. It's gonna get interesting, folks.

Idea for a new forum: DIY California. There's a lot to work on.


----------



## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> Combine the water problems with the rising cost of fuel (not happening right now, but will happen again) and there is a large argument for local farming. Problem, here in the NE, is that land is too valuable for farming. Only the developers can afford large tracts. It's gonna get interesting, folks.
> 
> Idea for a new forum: DIY California. There's a lot to work on.



We've had a land freeze on farm land for years so it is there for farming at a better price, but what it really did, is reserve acres for the rich to have a hobby farm around there great houses.


----------



## Chris

It would be nice if we could catch our grey water and use it for irrigation but it is illegal. That would be enough to water most all the plants in the yard minus any grass.

Gardens are way better to look at than grass anyway and can be done to where minimal water is used. I bet my little lawn uses more water than all my other drip lines combined on a few acres of my property.

They really should require a reclaimed infrastructure like we have for domestic water. 

I do a lot of work for treatment plants and know that they produce way more reclaimed water than they can even begin to get rid of, all this water is technically drinkable and would be great for home irrigation.

My old neighborhood they piped in reclaimed to a park but wouldn't let any homeowners connect. It just doesn't make sense to me that we have remedies to problems but stupid laws and rules stop us from doing anything about it.

We have a similar problem with electricity, the power company for years says we don't have enough power and that stuff needs to be done so then comes solar. Now with so many people having clean energy the same power company has done two things, one they are raising the rates for everyone else saying they don't have the same customer base they used to and also coming up with a connection charge for those that don't use much power or live by the beach and don't run AC. An extra charge for not using enough power. It's a loose loose situation.


----------



## nealtw

I'm not busy so I have to charge mega buck, works for me.


----------



## frodo

when you get tired of all that foolishness out their.  and want to live where you can do with your reclaimed, rain, water as you wish,
can drill as many water wells as your pocket can afford.

come on down here. .  we have utilities that need installing also. .

you know what i had to go thru to build my house?


----------



## slownsteady

nealtw said:


> We've had a land freeze on farm land for years so it is there for farming at a better price, but what it really did, is reserve acres for the rich to have a hobby farm around there great houses.



As long as it's open land, eventually it will get farmed. I've already seen small corn patches between houses. It is amusing.


----------



## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> As long as it's open land, eventually it will get farmed. I've already seen small corn patches between houses. It is amusing.



that's a maze ing


----------



## oldognewtrick

nealtw said:


> that's a maze ing



come on....really?


----------



## nealtw

well, maybe a bit corny


----------



## oldognewtrick

No, sounds like something I'd say...;D


----------



## slownsteady

Ba-Dum-Dum! Neal's on fire. Go on, we're all ears


----------



## inspectorD

But I think we need to get to the 'Root" of the problem.... and get rid of all those dumb people..

Opps..sorry...damn outside voice...:banana::banana:


----------



## nealtw

WE will have to take stock of the facts


----------



## oldognewtrick

nealtw said:


> WE will have to take stock of the facts




Don't try and confuse me with facts. ...


----------



## Speedbump

> I'll stop now.



Take politics out of the equation and the problem would take care of itself.  Don't get me started!


----------



## frodo

slownsteady said:


> Ba-Dum-Dum! Neal's on fire. Go on, we're all ears



what you say??


----------



## frodo

its a seedy topic.


----------



## bud16415

nealtw said:


> All those rules will be a thing of the past soon, the deniers have caused a lot of time to be waisted. WE can grow here but we are going to be short of water too. Who knew you should water trees in Jan. when it dosn't rain for a month, some died.


 

Who are these deniers you speak of?


----------



## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> Who are these deniers you speak of?



pass                ............


----------



## mudmixer

When you have lawns and yards, the local competitive ego is contrary to the conservation of water. - Perhaps the U.S. should look at modern India.

There, where the growing populations are, people live in apartment buildings (land is expensive and dear). Most buildings are 3-7 stories (parking plus 2 to 6 stories of living).

These buildings are built with dual "gray" water and "black" water systems to every apartment. The "gray" water  is from sinks and showers/baths. "black" water is generally from toilets and similar uses. The common sense is that the gray water needs minimal treatment to be used in many ways and is much cheaper to treat/improve. The "black" water takes a full water treatment plant to provide very sanitary water at a high price. Since it is has been required in modern apartments and hotels to keep the quality up at a low cost. - Unfortunately, with the the existing methods, water costs in the U.S. tend to prohibit different modern systems this is based on my observations from India between 1995 - 2012.

Dick


----------



## slownsteady

mudmixer said:


> When you have lawns and yards, the local competitive ego is contrary to the conservation of water. - Perhaps the U.S. should look at modern India.
> 
> There, where the growing populations are, people live in apartment buildings (land is expensive and dear). Most buildings are 3-7 stories (parking plus 2 to 6 stories of living).
> 
> These buildings are built with dual "gray" water and "black" water systems to every apartment. The "gray" water  is from sinks and showers/baths. "black" water is generally from toilets and similar uses. The common sense is that the gray water needs minimal treatment to be used in many ways and is much cheaper to treat/improve. The "black" water takes a full water treatment plant to provide very sanitary water at a high price. Since it is has been required in modern apartments and hotels to keep the quality up at a low cost. - Unfortunately, with the the existing methods, water costs in the U.S. tend to prohibit different modern systems this is based on my observations from India between 1995 - 2012.
> 
> Dick



Water will have to get way more expensive for that to happen here.


----------



## chrisn

http://www.theonion.com/articles/report-majority-of-earths-potable-water-trapped-in,38356/


:hide:


----------



## frodo

chrisn said:


> http://www.theonion.com/articles/report-majority-of-earths-potable-water-trapped-in,38356/
> 
> 
> :hide:



i do not believe the article  .   2/3   or 68$  is an inflated #


----------



## oldognewtrick

If and I mean a big *IF* that article was anywhere close to truth, how do they explain that when consumed by the human body, the liquid is filtered and eliminated as body waste? If the Onion spoke any form of truth about this then we'd all die from drinking Coke products.

Just my :2cents:


----------



## bud16415

How can this article not be true it comes from &#8220;America&#8217;s Finest News Source&#8221;. There must be some better news sources on other continents though or they would have included them in their header. 

You can&#8217;t print things on the internet unless they are fact checked and correct. 

Go to the onion&#8217;s home page and do a search on global warming. You will find many well though out articles on the subject such as this. 

http://www.theonion.com/articles/report-climate-change-skeptics-could-reach-catastr,36521/

The closing conclusion of that article is that &#8220;But frankly, it appears to be far too late now.&#8221;

I liked the article on How over the last 7 years Eskimos have lost 7 words for snow. That could be outweighed though as over the last two winters I picked up several new words for snow. Unfortunately I cant type them here.


----------



## oldognewtrick

bud16415 said:


> I liked the article on How over the last 7 years Eskimos have lost 7 words for snow. That could be outweighed though as over the last two winters I picked up several new words for snow. Unfortunately I cant type them here.




This made me laugh just a little, well maybe just a little more than that.


----------



## bud16415

oldognewtrick said:


> This made me laugh just a little, well maybe just a little more than that.


 


Glad to put a  on your face. 

Happy Easter All.


----------



## Sparky617

frodo said:


> i do not believe the article  .   2/3   or 68$  is an inflated #




The Onion is a satirical website/magazine.  You can believe it is all made up.


----------



## Speedbump

I loved that one on snow.



> Its so close, and theres so very much of it, she added, but what good does it do anyone?


 I mean come on, it goes great with chips and dip!

Are they trying to tell me if you put a can of coke in a distiller, the water wouldn't come out?


----------



## slownsteady

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion

There are other websites besides HRT


----------



## oldognewtrick

slownsteady said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion
> 
> *There are other websites besides HRT*



Don't be starting any false rumors buddy boy...


----------



## Chris

In the spirit of saving water, I am saving it in my above ground. My daughter is gonna love this summer.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Repair1428204102.763654.jpg


View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Repair1428204123.895337.jpg


View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Repair1428204146.546219.jpg


----------



## havasu

With the summer fire concerns, do you have a gas pump and fire hose for your "reservoir?"


----------



## Chris

I have a few at the office I can bring home.


----------



## chrisn

oldognewtrick said:


> If and I mean a big *IF* that article was anywhere close to truth, how do they explain that when consumed by the human body, the liquid is filtered and eliminated as body waste? If the Onion spoke any form of truth about this then we'd all die from drinking Coke products.
> 
> Just my :2cents:



that is why I added the:hide:

:banana:


----------



## frodo

thought this was appropriate


----------



## Chris

I'll take two!

News is saying we are cutting 25% whether we like it or not. Wonder if our governor or any other officials are going to have to cut back?


----------



## frodo

Chris said:


> I'll take two!
> 
> News is saying we are cutting 25% whether we like it or not. Wonder if our governor or any other officials are going to have to cut back?




hell no,  i bet he takes a few laps in an olympic pool every morning.

rationing is for you pions....


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> I'll take two!
> 
> News is saying we are cutting 25% whether we like it or not. Wonder if our governor or any other officials are going to have to cut back?



Unfair, house likely controlled by state maintenance and laws would have to change.


----------



## frodo

Chris said:


> I'll take two!
> 
> News is saying we are cutting 25% whether we like it or not. Wonder if our governor or any other officials are going to have to cut back?




wonder how much 2000 miles of hose would cost?


----------



## Speedbump

California is just like Florida.  Billions of gallons running into the Ocean everyday from Rivers, Streams, Springs etc and the gubt is saying we have to conserve while they build de-sal plants, reservoirs pumping out of rivers mandatory water restrictions etc while billions of gallons of fresh water that could be used are running into the salt water.  Been going on here for years.  We have more water than we could use and they are trying to scare the general public out of their wallets.

It's called politics!


----------



## Chris

As of this morning supposedly the metropolitan water district who supplies many of the local districts with water is going to cut water by 20% in a few months.


Mr. Jerry brown says there will be fines of 500 a day for using too much water. We are being told to take five minute or less showers.


----------



## Speedbump

I just want to know how Mr. Jerry Brown got in for a second go round.  There must be some very low info voters out there.  

The fines make perfect sense; since they have used up all the things that they could tax.


----------



## havasu

Speedbump said:


> I just want to know how Mr. Jerry Brown got in for a second go round.  There must be some very low info voters out there.



It's called entitlements. The same reason the POTUS got his second gig.


----------



## Speedbump

> It's called entitlements. The same reason the POTUS got his second gig.



I'm afraid your right.  I have no idea how we are going to slow it down.


----------



## bud16415

I live in a unique place where water will run in two directions sometimes fairly close together. The great lake basin takes water north and right as you cross the ridge water flows south and eventually ends up in the Gulf of Mexico. Both directions end in salt water. This time of year with the rains and the thaws there is so much water rolling both directions it would make your head spin. The great lakes are the largest body of fresh water on the planet and mostly untapped. 

There is a group that think anything mankind does is wrong and the solution is to stop all progress because it&#8217;s all greed driven and bad. On the other hand most of California if left to nature would be a desert just as nature provided that the vast amounts of fresh water flowing out of my area should return to the oceans to evaporate and come back down as rain and snow. 

Logic plays such a small part how these decisions of leaders are deployed and economics drives it all. Economics is nothing but a tool to control people with. It&#8217;s time people wake up and step back and look at the large picture. 

On a similar but slightly off topic subject my brother in law Mr. Knowitall  brings an article Easter day to show me a wonderful thing the police will be doing shortly with new smart cars and GPS. He was telling how the police will be able to issue speeding tickets based on the information your car feeds them. Won&#8217;t it be wonderful the cops won&#8217;t have to leave the station and the roads will be safer. I told him that&#8217;s only half the story like Paul Harvey used to say. I said they know where you are at they know the direction they know the speed limit and they know the road conditions and how many cars are on that road. I said why not just limit the speed the car can go based on all that and forget about speeding altogether. The answer is no speeding no revenue stream. And then I told him now you know the rest of the story. The government wants you to speed. 

Years ago I said on a holiday weekend between Erie and Pittsburg you could see 40 state troopers with radar guns each getting paid a big salary with training way beyond writing tickets. Why not pay someone minimum wage to drive a pace car down the center of the lanes with a big lighted bar so no one could pass it going the speed limit. Ten people doing that would control 100% of the speeders. 

It&#8217;s all about money and power not water and the people in control do not lack logic and intelligence just the opposite they are doing exactly what their plan is they are not stupid buffoons they are highly intelligent with an agenda and are following a plan.


----------



## Speedbump

I couldn't have said it better!


----------



## Chris

Speaking of going dry, the coyotes keep chewing through my drip lines to get water. I know I could sit up all night for a week and shoot all the coyotes but I figured against my neighbor who doesn't want them around I buried a bucket in the ground that is filled off my drip line. Maybe that will keep them from tearing up my irrigation?

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Repair1428443185.564604.jpg


----------



## frodo

Chris said:


> As of this morning supposedly the metropolitan water district who supplies many of the local districts with water is going to cut water by 20% in a few months.
> 
> 
> Mr. Jerry brown says there will be fines of 500 a day for using too much water. We are being told to take five minute or less showers.



they gottta get the money to pay for all the new welfare recipients that are showing up'   


5 minute bath  
  tell my 45 minute wife that!!!!

you better have the door open and the truck running when you do :rofl::rofl:


----------



## Chris

I cant wait to see the morning news to see what they come up with for another reason to conserve or what kind of fines we can expect for watering our 30 year old lawn.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> I cant wait to see the morning news to see what they come up with for another reason to conserve or what kind of fines we can expect for watering our 30 year old lawn.



What would you have them do.


----------



## inspectorD

I would petition to stop Nestle from still Bottling water and selling it...But thats just me..:2cents:

http://rt.com/usa/172764-nestle-california-bottling-plant/


----------



## nealtw

This is the new deal our guys came up with, it will surely slow them down

*Starting in 2016, corporations will be charged $2.25 for every one million litres of water they extract*


----------



## bud16415

Chris said:


> Speaking of going dry, the coyotes keep chewing through my drip lines to get water. I know I could sit up all night for a week and shoot all the coyotes but I figured against my neighbor who doesn't want them around I buried a bucket in the ground that is filled off my drip line. Maybe that will keep them from tearing up my irrigation?
> 
> View attachment 8850




 Chris
  I understand your desire to protect your drip lines and can even understand why you might not want to dispatch the coyotes permanently. I dont know how close the drip lines are to your dwelling but I would assume fairly close as most people living in a desert area build for themselves a tiny oasis around their home and leave the rest to nature. 

  I personally wouldnt want to share my oasis with the coyotes. They need two things to survive water is the most important and second is food. A source of water will keep them around. Sometimes solving one problem will cause a larger problem. 

  I would be opposed to anything except getting them as far away as I could from my house. We never used to have coyotes around here I never heard of them being native to this area until maybe 20 years ago. We have an abundance of water and lots of game and the population has exploded but they remain little problems as they stay in the wild areas feeding on white tail deer on down. I know farmers that will drag a road kill deer into a field with the intent of killing the coyotes at dusk and will come back within 2 hours to find the carcass stripped to a pile of bones. Thats something like 150 pounds of meat gone that fast, and a good judge of the number of them around here. 

  IMHO helping them in any way is the wrong direction to go.


----------



## Chris

That's where I'm torn. I don't want to help them either but I'm tired of fixing irrigation. These lines are about 300 feet from my house on my lower fence line. I'm thinking I will just continue my fence around the property and be done with them. Only need a few thousand feet of fence.


----------



## frodo

fence will not stop them...make a depression out of concrete.  put one of your drippers in it.

let it water the wild life,   if they have a pool,  they will leave the drippers alone.

it is not only the yotes,  its rats, mice, and other varmets.

better yet,  dig a pond,  stock it with cat fish


----------



## nealtw

You need a pet road runner
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IvM3NJ_2fA[/ame]


----------



## slownsteady

wrap your dripper lines with chicken wire or something similar, or replace them with metal. (with little tiny holes in them?? )


----------



## nealtw

put the water outside the fence and set up the motion sensor on your side of the fence 
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Havahart...ted-Sprinkler-Animal-Repellent-5266/203281169


----------



## Chris

I think I am going to set up my game cameras to see exactly what I have coming in.


----------



## slownsteady

nealtw said:


> put the water outside the fence and set up the motion sensor on your side of the fence
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Havahart...ted-Sprinkler-Animal-Repellent-5266/203281169



Using water to deter thirsty animals...hmmmm.


----------



## frodo

fire up the BBQ pit....when I was in the Philippines.   dog was quite tasty....taste like chicken LOL


----------



## bud16415

http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_pritchard_invents_a_water_filter?language=en


----------



## frodo

thats easy,,,run it thru my distiller......DUH!...

or...teaspoon bleach per gallon of water

http://screencast.com/t/UJoB26erRF9


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> What would you have them do.



That I don't know exactly but I would not start out with things are good and then a week later start threatening fines so high no one could afford them. There needs to be some sort of transition or incentive other than getting fined and potential jail time for using a service you pay for. Maybe start with the things that use the majority of the water, golf courses, water parks, water districts, cities and the like. Don't tell me I need to kill my lawn when the entire city has acres upon acres of grass in all the islands and along side roads that is irrigated and only there to be pretty.

All I am saying is that lets look at the whole problem and realistic solutions before we start threatening people. Also lets stop trying to make this arid desert into something it's not.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> That I don't know exactly but I would not start out with things are good and then a week later start threatening fines so high no one could afford them. There needs to be some sort of transition or incentive other than getting fined and potential jail time for using a service you pay for. Maybe start with the things that use the majority of the water, golf courses, water parks, water districts, cities and the like. Don't tell me I need to kill my lawn when the entire city has acres upon acres of grass in all the islands and along side roads that is irrigated and only there to be pretty.
> 
> All I am saying is that lets look at the whole problem and realistic solutions before we start threatening people. Also lets stop trying to make this arid desert into something it's not.



I agree with all of that, I think the talking should have started month ago, with puplic hearings, as it is your likely going to have real hard feeling between the north and south. You guys loose lawns, they will loose livelyhood and property value, I'm afraid it will get ugle, when what is needed is people all working for a common goal.

I can understand how you all got to where you are and why it is such a big part of the economy, backing out of that system is going to be painfull for everyone, including people across the country and beyond.


----------



## Chris

I have two things holding me in this state, one is my grandparents, they are the only family I have left here and don't want me to leave until after they are gone, second is my company, I do well here so it would be a huge transition to start that over somewhere else although it could be done. If it weren't for those two reasons I would be gone already, I truly do not overly enjoy living here, I hate the fact that if I want to go anywhere I have to sit in traffic for hours, it's hot as hell in the summer and we get no rain in the winter (Arid desert). The cost of living in through the roof and there is no neighborly love, no one gets together to do anything anymore, just a bunch of grumpy *** people living next to each other and everyone is so far over extended trying to keep up with the Jones that we all work 7 days a week or can't afford to go out and do anything because of all the fancy crap we own. It's really quite depressing watching it all the time. People out here live to work and thats it. Where else can you make 45 bucks an hour and your wife make good money and you still can't afford to go out to dinner on a saturday night? Where else is it more important to pay 5 grand a month for a house and 1500 a month in cars to not be able to afford to drive them, it's crazy. Living in SoCal is truly not as enjoyable as some make it out to be. I will be done with my little rant now. I just hope I can get out before my daughters realize what they are growing up in.


----------



## Chris

Back to the water part, that should have been talked about 20+ years ago, I remember growing up in a small town in the mountains and we had big signs asking us to conserve, heck back then I don't know how we could have any more, heck no one in town even had a lawn and the only plants were pine trees.


----------



## inspectorD

Chris said:


> I have two things holding me in this state, one is my grandparents, they are the only family I have left here and don't want me to leave until after they are gone, second is my company, I do well here so it would be a huge transition to start that over somewhere else although it could be done. If it weren't for those two reasons I would be gone already, I truly do not overly enjoy living here, I hate the fact that if I want to go anywhere I have to sit in traffic for hours, it's hot as hell in the summer and we get no rain in the winter (Arid desert). The cost of living in through the roof and there is no neighborly love, no one gets together to do anything anymore, just a bunch of grumpy *** people living next to each other and everyone is so far over extended trying to keep up with the Jones that we all work 7 days a week or can't afford to go out and do anything because of all the fancy crap we own. It's really quite depressing watching it all the time. People out here live to work and thats it. Where else can you make 45 bucks an hour and your wife make good money and you still can't afford to go out to dinner on a saturday night? Where else is it more important to pay 5 grand a month for a house and 1500 a month in cars to not be able to afford to drive them, it's crazy. Living in SoCal is truly not as enjoyable as some make it out to be. I will be done with my little rant now. I just hope I can get out before my daughters realize what they are growing up in.



The problem with that..is there is always one more excuse. I have wanted to leave here for about 10 years..but I am so involved with many Town projects, and the good people here in Town..I dont think we will go until we retire. I live with 80 acres of land, people wave at my rig when I go down the road..and I dont leave town much for work...I eat lunch at the same booth with 5 other guys every stinkin day... and more come in depending on jobs and the day. We get more done at the lunch counter than our small town selectmen do in a month. 
Living for your belongings is not living... you need to visit your relatives when you can, and do what makes you happy...or live with the misery you call life. 
I would never live in a congested, hot and lifeless area...Get out and dont think twice...or your stuck .. but thats just my opinion.:2cents:


----------



## slownsteady

two interesting articles on the subject:

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ca...-apps-target-california-water-wasters-n167651
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/20...es-gallery-of-guzzlers-in-californias-drought


----------



## Speedbump

Where I am here in Florida was a sleepy little town 20 some years ago.  Now, they are building houses (not homes) so fast that if you don't drive down the street every day, you'll get lost.  Traffic everywhere.  Where two lanes were more than enough, now six aren't even close to enough.

We have had water cops here for many years.  The homeowners associations tell you your grass has to be green and the in trying to please them, you water on the wrong day and the water cops fine you.

That's why I live in the boonies.  I water when I want which is hardly never with manual valves and nobody bothers me. "YET"

What is really weird is that before I went into the Army in 1968, I went to LA for 3 months to goof off.  Holy crap, the traffic was horrendous then, even with 6, 8, hell I don't know maybe even 10 lanes on some highways.  What's it like now???  I can't imagine!


----------



## Chris

Traffic is plain horrible here. I live about 50 miles from LA and at minimum it takes about two hours to get there. Getting home in the afternoon takes 3-4 hours sometimes. There is traffic everywhere no matter what direction you go. I have a major interchange about 14 miles from my house and it regularly takes an hour to get through it.

If you look at the big picture this state is really not all that desirable to live in. But... It is still the land of opportunity, you can be or do anything you want out here. Where else can you become a millionaire over night and loose it all the next day to be right back on top next year.


----------



## Speedbump

Wow, so it is almost as bad as I expected it to be 47 years later.  I get mad now because I have to sit at a four way stop with 10 cars in front of me when it used to be nobody in front.  Just pull up, stop and go.  But 2 hours for a 45 minute trip, I don't think so.


----------



## bud16415

It is a little tough to become a millionaire overnight here. But then again you don&#8217;t need a million to have a nice life. We bought a nice 3 bed 2 bath fixer up house for 24k in a quiet little to town with a good fishing river across the street. I drive 30 miles to work but it&#8217;s only a 40 minute drive. The ones that pass me get there quicker. In summer all the food you need you can get at the road side farmers stands. Dozen sweet corn is still 2 bucks. 

The Amish tell me they think we move to fast.


----------



## havasu

Sweet corn in our markets usually will run 3 for a buck, but only when it is on sale.


----------



## Chris

and it gets up to .69 cents an ear or more.

I really need to start traveling more to see the country, I would really love to raise my kids elsewhere but it is difficult when I don't know where elsewhere is yet. I hear a lot of good about a lot of places and even just visiting isn't enough but it's a start. I would love to buy something and get it paid off before I leave.


----------



## buffalo

I'm kind of nerdy in this aspect. But did you guys know that the Sahara desert , the largest desert in the world , was a lush tropical region 10,000 years ago? Climate change is real , but , imo , not the way fear mongering governments portray it. Just another way to tax. I'm not so convinced on the whole man made doom side. 

I'm in Buffalo ny , I I'm thinking I'm done with winters! I wonder where in the world has better climate? And I wonder do I ever hear of anything bad in south america? What if I worked my butt off to plow a small field , raise 3.chickens , have a goat for milk.....is that guy happy? .....does having cable TV and a new car aND a nice house equal happiness and quality of life. 

It's just a question , because I don't know?


----------



## nealtw

With climate change we mostly think of oil and coal and what it does, which is bad enough but there used to be alot of trees to scrub the air of all that stuff but we have lost 50% of that world wide.
Never mind the politics, do your own research. WE can't beleive that 90% of scientests are quacks. China and India are leaving us in the dust for alternatives to oil and coal.
http://www.rain-tree.com/facts.htm#.VSyFwJtGSzk


----------



## Chris

I'm a believer that good family and friends with a decent roof over your head is what make the good life. I could live in a hut if my family was happy and I was surrounded by good people.

That being said we have great weather if you don't like the cold. Central and northern ca are beautiful. Me personally I would be ok with snow if I had a beautiful summer. It's no fun to enjoy if your stuck inside with the air on. I guess the same could be said for winter too.


----------



## bud16415

China and India are not leaving us in the dust with anything except at how much coal and oil they are burning and how unclean they are burning it. 

As to CO2 and plant life the people who grow things indoors in greenhouses understand the benefits of CO2. Few links below

Buffalo:  I know the question of happiness you ask. Happiness is where you find it. I dont think it is in a location or with a standard of living. 

http://phys.org/news/2014-10-co2-atmosphere.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ear...e-carbon-dioxide-than-previously-thought.html

http://www.livescience.com/44330-jurassic-dinosaur-carbon-dioxide.html

http://www.novabiomatique.com/hydroponics-systems/plant-555-gardening-with-co2-explained.cfm

http://www.climatedepot.com/2013/05...only-a-big-yawn-climate-depot-special-report/

https://www.hydrofarm.com/resources/articles/co2_enrichment.php


----------



## chrisn

Chris said:


> Traffic is plain horrible here. I live about 50 miles from LA and at minimum it takes about two hours to get there. Getting home in the afternoon takes 3-4 hours sometimes. There is traffic everywhere no matter what direction you go. I have a major interchange about 14 miles from my house and it regularly takes an hour to get through it.
> 
> If you look at the big picture this state is really not all that desirable to live in. But... It is still the land of opportunity, you can be or do anything you want out here. Where else can you become a millionaire over night and loose it all the next day to be right back on top next year.



Just try and paint something with oil based paint:rofl:


----------



## Chris

What is oil based paint?


----------



## havasu

The city I worked at was forced to paint the red curbs with water based paints. Once it rained, they had to go out and re-paint. Stupid Kommiefornia rules....


----------



## Speedbump

They can do that because it isn't their money.  If they need more, they add a new fee!


----------



## Chris

Can't buy quality materials in California. Even our lumber has tags stating it will cause cancer.


----------



## bud16415

Chris said:


> Can't buy quality materials in California. Even our lumber has tags stating it will cause cancer.




 Our lumber has the same tags. They say the wood only causes cancer in California. Thats why Im staying here. 

  On NPR this morning they did a thing on what farmers get water in California. I didnt realize it goes by permits that go back 100 or more years. In this one case one farmers grandfather was one of the first to apply for water rights so he gets millions of gallons all he can use because he is grandfathered in literally. The farm across the road shut off totally. 

  They dont call it the left coast for nothing.


----------



## Chris

Makes no sense does it. I have been following the news and the only ones who are being made to cut down are farmers and average homeowners


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Makes no sense does it. I have been following the news and the only ones who are being made to cut down are farmers and average homeowners



You mean anybody with a lobbyist is OK


----------



## Chris

Yes. 

Not a single mention of golf courses or cities or anyone else


----------



## nealtw

trickle down should work, no?


----------



## Chris

Only if it trickles. With water I think not.


----------



## frodo

we have silly commiefornia stickers on everything....sounds like every one in commiefornia has cancer.

thats where the zombies will come from.


----------



## Chris

Breathing our air causes cancer.


----------



## bud16415

This morning on NPRs continuing series on the California water shortage they talked about a new billion dollar desalination plant for San Diego. The mayor is behind the project reluctantly as it has a large carbon footprint and there is some chance fish eggs will get sucked up and also the plan is to return the salt to the ocean after they take out the water. I couldnt understand the energy problem with a new plant like this you would think they would just spend another billion and build a solar or wind plant right next to the water plant after all that technology Im constantly told is the answer to all the problems. 

Does it make sense to burn coal in another state and then send them power to take salt out of water. Why not build a pipeline like they want to build from Canada for the oil and send the great lakes to California. I wonder if that pipeline would be as controversial. 

As to dumping the salt back in the ocean I cant figure out what putting it back where you got it would hurt. Around here they used to dump snow into Lake Erie in the winter to get rid of it. That is now against the law as the salt is viewed as a pollutant. It is ok to leave it piled up till spring and let it melt and go down the storm drains into the lake. 

Then there are the fish eggs. 

Below is a link to more information on the project. 

http://inhabitat.com/san-diego-coun...illion-desalination-plant-to-address-drought/


----------



## havasu

From what I've been told, the return water is extremely salty, so it will really disrupt the sea life around the plant.


----------



## Speedbump

We have a large de sal plant here.  The whole thing was a typical govt project. Contractors went bankrupt (after they got paid for botching the whole thing) then they sued and lost then hired another shoddy contractor (probably come senators nephew) who finally got it working somewhat.  They dump the salt back where it came from;  the fish sometimes have three eyes, but the govt said that was normal so nobody worries about it.  

If a civilian was hired to do this project, they would take the salt and sell it to a water softener contractor and pay for the entire project in a matter of months.  Even the fish would be normal.  Oh, hell what am I thinking, that would make too much sense.


----------



## buffalo

I remember reading somthing about other states wanting the water from the great Lakes , there was big oposition. Get your own water!:rofl:

I don't know exactly how the disilation plants work , but in the northeast budgets are blow on rough winters from salting roads. Can't the salt be used for snow melt?


----------



## nealtw

That isn't the same salt they use on roads.


----------



## buffalo

I don't understand the differance. Is it the size of the salt , what makes it different? 

What I know about salt.

 from a study I watched on tv....there are 3 things our body requires. Food , water and salt. Our need for food induces hunger. Our need for water induces thirst. We have noNE of this for salt , but it's a nessacary ingredient. It may somehow be linked to addictions humans have. A craving.

Buffalo ny was one of the biggest usa cities at one point. Why , salt. We have large salt mines. It's why the erie canal was dug....by hand. salt was very valuable , epically before refrigeration.  It preserved meat. 

The mongols of gangis khan , used to ride with meat packed with salt under thier saddles. The pounding and sat enabled them to eat the meat raw. 

Salt was so valuable in ancient time , Roman soldiers  were paid in sAlt.

That's it:beer:


----------



## nealtw

The term &#8220;road salts&#8221; generally refers to the four common chloride salts used as deicers in Canada: sodium chloride (NaCl), calcium chloride (CaCl), magnesium chloride (MgCl) and potassium chloride (KCl), along with an anti-clumping agent, ferrocyanide salt.

I'm sure you have something like this down in the US


----------



## bud16415

The salt is removed from sea water with a process called reverse osmoses. It leaves the salt as a brine I believe. It would work fine IMO to melt snow but most salting equipment is set up for rock salt (solid). Around here they use a lot of salt brine from the gas wells on the dirt roads to keep down dust and to help rust our cars out year round instead of just during the winter. It is against the law to dump the stuff but ok to spray on the roads, go figure. They are using brine more and more in the winter now and some of the bridges and overpasses have spray systems built in now.


----------



## chrisn

nealtw said:


> That isn't the same salt they use on roads.



well, how hard could it be to


----------



## Chris

I heard the plant going in San Diego will provide less than 3% of the local population with water. They are going to have to build thirty of them in San Diego to make a dent.


----------



## frodo

here is a good little scam.

in teluride co.

A local co, has the contract to remove snow from the parking lots.

they scoop it up with front end loaders and truck it to there yard. 

when the snow melts, they have the contract to place gravel on the parking lots to keep the mud down.

they go to the melted snow piles,  scoop up the gravel that they scooped up with the snow and get paid to truck it back to where it came from.


nice huh?  :rofl:


this did not have anything to do with salt,,,,just seemed about as absurd.


----------



## Rustedbird

They say here, that "brown is the new gold." Being from Back East where it rained a lot and the blasted grass grew no matter what, with having to mow it sometimes twice a week, I'm all for letting the lawn be as dry as a bone. I'm going to cut it down to as low as I can go, and just weed it anything that pops up the level of the regular grass. 

Yeah, I live in California now.


----------



## Speedbump

> They are going to have to build thirty of them in San Diego to make a dent.



Yeah, but look at all the kickbacks and payoffs it will generate.


----------



## Chris

If we can afford all this nonsense why can't we afford to do a pipeline from places that have too much water to out here? Besides getting water to where it is politically needed it will give jobs to thousands of people for years to come. And is less stupid as a high speed railway to nowhere.


----------



## Chris

For all those people who think our farms don't need water or are evil because they use water might want to think twice about what they would eat without us. California produces more fruit, nuts and veggies than most states combined.  Here is an example of the percentages we produce.

California produces a sizable majority of many American fruits, vegetables, and nuts: 99 percent of artichokes, 99 percent of walnuts, 97 percent of kiwis, 97 percent of plums, 95 percent of celery, 95 percent of garlic, 89 percent of cauliflower, 71 percent of spinach, and 69 percent of carrots (and the list goes on and on). Some of this is due to climate and soil. No other state, or even a combination of states, can match Californias output per acre. Lemon yields in California, for example, are more than 50 percent higher than in Arizona. California spinach yield per acre is 60 percent higher than the national average. Without California, supply of all these products in the United States and abroad would dip.

Maybe instead of whining that that farms take too much water how bout we kick everyone out of california that is not associated with farming so we can use our resources for what is important and needed in life? Food!

I keep hearing that those evil farmers are using as much water as LA. How dare those evil people make all that food for the country.


----------



## frodo

it rains here all he time.....i took this picture of an old barn, day before yesterday...ck out how green


----------



## chrisn

Chris said:


> For all those people who think our farms don't need water or are evil because they use water might want to think twice about what they would eat without us. California produces more fruit, nuts and veggies than most states combined.  Here is an example of the percentages we produce.
> 
> California produces a sizable majority of many American fruits, vegetables, and nuts: 99 percent of artichokes, 99 percent of walnuts, 97 percent of kiwis, 97 percent of plums, 95 percent of celery, 95 percent of garlic, 89 percent of cauliflower, 71 percent of spinach, and 69 percent of carrots (and the list goes on and on). Some of this is due to climate and soil. No other state, or even a combination of states, can match Californias output per acre. Lemon yields in California, for example, are more than 50 percent higher than in Arizona. California spinach yield per acre is 60 percent higher than the national average. Without California, supply of all these products in the United States and abroad would dip.
> 
> Maybe instead of whining that that farms take too much water how bout we kick everyone out of california that is not associated with farming so we can use our resources for what is important and needed in life? Food!
> 
> I keep hearing that those evil farmers are using as much water as LA. How dare those evil people make all that food for the country.



YES, now there is a good plan::agree:


----------



## Chris

And now we have an oil spill. We just can't keep any valuable resources where we need them.


----------



## Speedbump

The poor Birds, they are the ones that suffer the most with oil spills.  Don't worry though, Obama will fix it!


----------



## havasu

I hear he plans on placing all the birds on welfare. This way, he will have another Democratic voter for life.


----------



## slownsteady

Are these the same people that thought it was treasonous to criticize Bush?


----------



## Chris

New restrictions in place today.

You can water your lawn up to twice a week for ten minutes.

Not allowed to wash your car or use a hose outdoors.

Restaurants can only serve water if requested.

Must cut back by at least 25%

Up to a thousand dollar fine for the first offense.


----------



## Speedbump

We went through the same scenario years ago.  I can't remember if it was in the 90's or early 2000's.  But we had the same deal.  We also now have the water police.  How much you wanna bet you will have them too from now on?  That is if you don't have them already.


----------



## Chris

We have water police and nut job people running around turning people in.


----------



## Speedbump

Oh WoW, you have both.  Although, I suppose we have some nut jobs here too.  A friend of mine got fined $500.00 for watering his fruit trees at the wrong time.  So he laid out several hoses throughout his yard and there was a cut in the hose conveniently near each tree.

I'll bet the golf coarse's are just watering away as are all the government  buildings.


----------



## slownsteady

Same old story: "There's enough water for me, so I don't have to conserve. If I don't get caught, then it's not a problem."


----------



## Chris

They are only enforcing residential right now.


----------



## nealtw

This must have been good news.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/23/u...rs-to-cut-water-use-to-ease-drought.html?_r=0


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> This must have been good news.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/23/u...rs-to-cut-water-use-to-ease-drought.html?_r=0



I know most do not agree with me but personally I think we should do everything in our power to keep water going to farms. As I have stated before they produce over 90% of the nations fruits and nuts. and not just our nation. Without our farms producing at 100% two things will happen, one will be we will have a decrease in quantity coming out of them which will in turn cause shortages and thus shortages will cause prices to skyrocket.

As much as I disagree with the fines and how they are forcing us to cut back I would rather see us as residents be forced to cut and more importantly golf courses and other large consumers. If they changed some rules and let us use grey water for irrigation and have holding tanks of sorts we would not need as much fresh water, bad part about that is really how many people would actually go out of their way to participate?

California is the land of the entitled. (At least in the big city areas) which makes it very hard to actually accomplish goals. The people in charge come up with ideas and generalizations that are far fetched and not a reality. I was listening to a radio news channel today and they were talking about this water and how if you have a family of seven than in order to not get these thousand dollar fines you would have to cut your water back by 70%. They only way around the fine is to send an appeal to the California appeal board where they have the power to change things.

Meanwhile there is huge talk of an actual producing El Nino next winter which I am actually starting to believe a little because of some of the things happening out here that have never been seen before, our ocean waters are warmer than they have ever been, we are catching 200 pound tuna five miles offshore here which has never happened, our ocean as we knew it is not what it is. These warmer waters bring storms and big storms. Lets hope they are right and this winter is a wet one that has the potential to fill our water reserves.


----------



## nealtw

The trouble with climate change is figuring out what it will change. Carefull what you wish for! I would think if all the golf coarses were to close down there would be some cities in big trouble too. All you can do is hope you have the right people who can juggle all the needs of big and small business as well as the people and the farms. But just sitting here on the outside, I would think the lawns would always be first to suffer, while all the big decisions are being worked on.


----------



## Chris

I would be happier if they didn't jump to these quick decisions and then throw huge fines at them because when California does something it is written in stone. They never give it back. It would be nice if they could actually come up with good fair ideas. To say you have to cut back or pay a grand next month is not a solution to anything. What happens if you are one of those people that has already cut back to the minimum? You already let your yard die, you go to the laundromat, you save all your cooking and cleaning water for other things and then you are told you need to cut another 25%? What is that person to do?

It is just hard to jump for anything this state comes up with because most of all they come up are bad ideas or are to benefit the state and not it's people. We have a track record of failure.


----------



## bud16415

I have a bumper sticker on my truck that says (No Farmers No Food) asking a farmer to cut his water usage 25% That has been working in an area for years that has been hit by water shortage. He has already picked all the low hanging fruit off the water conservation tree. What you are really telling him is cut your production by 25% thus using 25% less water. 

He has grown his business and sized his business to be efficient at some rate of production and farming like most business the structure is in place to support some level of output. Some items of his business are more easily adjusted down by 25% than others. He must first look at the fact that his profits will be down 25% and he will need to adjust his work force down 25%. Then he has to look at all his fixed expenses he has equipment and processes sized to some level of output he expects. He&#8217;s in debt paying for an operation to accomplish some task based around an average year. it&#8217;s not bad enough weather and a million other things can impact his yield now he is told he has to self-inflict a bad year to his plan by 25%, and also told this is not set in stone we might just demand more next year. How is any businessman supposed to plan for such a manmade problem that has unknown outcomes. 

Who came up with 25% was that a guess on someone&#8217;s part? Things rarely come out to such even numbers. Who prioritized what water usage should be rationed before another? Of course drinking water would be on everyone&#8217;s number one on their list and I would think food production would be number 2. Recreational water would seem to me to be on the bottom of all lists even though I understand those people are businesses also. 

The solution to every problem involves first stating what the problem really is and then forming a plan on how best to solve the problem leaving no solutions off the table. Government is like the guy that salts his food before he tastes it. Most times they are in such a hurry to solve a problem they don&#8217;t take the time to figure out what the problem is or if they are really the right people to solve the problem. Government is pretty limited on what they can do to solve a problem. They only know how to make laws and punish people that don&#8217;t obey them and waste money in the process.


----------



## Speedbump

I agree, leave the Farmers alone.  And the statement that Farmers use 80% of the water is somewhat bogus.  Most of the water that is put on crops goes back into the ground to be used again and again.  Sure it takes time to get to the aquifer, but it does get there.  Now if somebody had said that Farmers used 79.654%, I might think someone actually did a little research, but an even 80%?  I think not.

What Chris said about what they take they never give back is very true.  And not just in California.


----------



## Chris

Speedbump said:


> I agree, leave the Farmers alone.  And the statement that Farmers use 80% of the water is somewhat bogus.  Most of the water that is put on crops goes back into the ground to be used again and again.  Sure it takes time to get to the aquifer, but it does get there.  Now if somebody had said that Farmers used 79.654%, I might think someone actually did a little research, but an even 80%?  I think not.
> 
> What Chris said about what they take they never give back is very true.  And not just in California.



I have heard that it takes five to six years for water to get back down to be pumped up again. To me that sounds like a constant recycle. Every year we use water about that same amount should be getting back into the ground.

Water is a funny thing, nothing ever uses it up, it is always recycled one way or another and always comes back, it's just a matter of when and where.


----------



## nealtw

People will only take seriously if the fines are big.


----------



## Speedbump

That sounds like an awful long time when we have gravity on our side.  I can watch the surface water levels here and they go up and as much as 6 - 7 feet most years unless we have a bunch of rain in the winter.

I think if you ask 3 hydro geologists the question:  How long does it take for ground water to get into the aquifer?  In any given location.  You would get three totally different answers.


----------



## inspectorD

Remember that Plenty of that water..goes into making the Juicy fruit and vegetables that get shipped out.. I think folks forget that water goes into the aquifer at a slower rate than the veggies and fruit go out.
There has to be a number on the water in the produce sold...which makes everything skewed towards a drought being just that it is really Stored water.
Most groundwater is evaporated...not driven into the ground.

Way to many variables to compute...and way to many folks livin in one area.


----------



## Speedbump

> Most groundwater is evaporated...not driven into the ground.


I have to disagree with that.  When it rains, it's cloudy, not much evaporation going on until it clears up.  By then a lot of that water has gone into the ground.  If evaporation were a problem, it would seem that the powers that be would quit making builders dig all of these retention ponds which are nothing more than a hole in the ground that allows surface water to seek it's level in so that the sun can get all it wants.


----------



## slownsteady

I think the Inspector was just pointing out that evaporation is another route in the water cycle. Water that evaporates doesn't leave the planet. And it happens even on cloudy days......


----------



## slownsteady

Bud: I like your post above, and agree with it mostly. But it's too big a generalization to say that farmers don't waste water. Some of the methods they use are not that efficient. And until it becomes an economic issue, there's no incentive to improve it. 

Another problem is the short memory of people. Eventually CA will get the big rains and everybody will forget how to conserve. And then it starts all over again.


----------



## Chris

Here is another thing to consider. Road construction! when we are widening highways or building bridges and really anything that has to do with dirt work we are required to keep the dust down by running water trucks all day long. Right now Caltrans (state construction company) is working everywhere  widening our roads and doing who knows what. I can't drive ten minutes without seeing a major highway construction project going on. Here is a map of current government dirt work jobs. Now each one of these projects is using hundreds of thousands of gallons of water for dust control and what not. Why can't we just put a hold on government or really any water use for dust control or a hold on some of these projects?


----------



## Chris

slownsteady said:


> Bud: I like your post above, and agree with it mostly. But it's too big a generalization to say that farmers don't waste water. Some of the methods they use are not that efficient. And until it becomes an economic issue, there's no incentive to improve it.
> 
> Another problem is the short memory of people. Eventually CA will get the big rains and everybody will forget how to conserve. And then it starts all over again.



I have to agree with some farmers wasting water. I recently drove up north to where I hunt pig and I have to drive through hours of farm land. These were mostly nut farms. Pretty much all are on drip lines now and doing well to conserve and also drip lines keep weeds from growing so there is less labor for maintenance. I drove past one farm on the way out and on the way in that both times they were putting so much water on the dirt for dust control that it was a soupy mud.


----------



## elbo

It never fails to amaze me, we can spend quatra-zillions dollars to retrieve rocks from the moon and mars, send probes all around the solar system, drill tunnels through mountains, etc. why can't they make pipelines going from areas prone to flooding to areas of drought? Years ago, a pipeline was sent to the florida keys from Miami to provide water for the keys. With todays technology and materials It shouldn't be difficult to pipe (pump ) water to various lakes and reservoirs in dry areas from swollen rivers during floods. If we had started a project with that in mind, there wouldn't be the devastation that is occurring now, not to mention the employment to construct the project
The american people have always met challenges in the past, we can do it again if we want to


----------



## Chris

elbo said:


> It never fails to amaze me, we can spend quatra-zillions dollars to retrieve rocks from the moon and mars, send probes all around the solar system, drill tunnels through mountains, etc. why can't they make pipelines going from areas prone to flooding to areas of drought? Years ago, a pipeline was sent to the florida keys from Miami to provide water for the keys. With todays technology and materials It shouldn't be difficult to pipe (pump ) water to various lakes and reservoirs in dry areas from swollen rivers during floods. If we had started a project with that in mind, there wouldn't be the devastation that is occurring now, not to mention the employment to construct the project
> The american people have always met challenges in the past, we can do it again if we want to



I've been saying that a long time but I guess it is more important to spend that 80 billion dollars on a high speed train to nowhere.


----------



## Speedbump

> I think the Inspector was just pointing out that evaporation is another route in the water cycle. Water that evaporates doesn't leave the planet. And it happens even on cloudy days......


It doesn't leave the planet, but it leaves the area and rains somewhere else.  I always got a kick out of these government types who say we are going to run out of water.  Where is it going to go???  It simply gets moved around, but it's not going anywhere.


----------



## slownsteady

unfortunate for the drought victims, and the flood victims. heard a new word the other day... "eco-refugees".


----------



## Chris

I'm gonna start a new crisis. It's called the Wisconsin air shortage...


----------



## frodo

just say'n...




water meter    in yard  



water meter with bypass in yard


----------



## nealtw

frodo said:


> just say'n...
> 
> View attachment 9265
> 
> 
> water meter    in yard
> View attachment 9266
> 
> 
> water meter with bypass in yard
> View attachment 9266



That is cute but the shortage is reall


----------



## slownsteady

Frodo: see post 131 above


----------



## Chris

I am on a well so technically I could use all I want but I still try my best to not waste anything. My yard is 97% drip for irrigation and all I really have are trees and shrubs and those are 100% drought tolerant and native to my area. I have been conserving for years not because I don't want to waste water but because I don't want to fight to keep any plants alive. My motto is if it stays alive in my yard with my poor watering skills it can stay. I do have a lawn but it is about 8' x 30' with three sprinkler heads. I am on septic so all my interior water gets recycled on site. I would still like to have the shower hooked up to a gray water tank.

I am considering tearing out the front lawn on my rental and putting in more fake lawn like I did in the back. I have no issue conserving I just don't like how the government is going about it.


----------



## slownsteady

It is going to be a way of life going forward.


----------



## buffalo

The previous owners at my house , tapped the main and brought water in on thier own. They ended up getting busted because the daughter blew him in At some point.


----------



## bud16415

Helping yourself to goods and services is never a good idea and never ends well.


----------



## Speedbump

> I am on a well so technically I could use all I want but I still try my best to not waste anything.



You must own your mineral rights.  Here in Florida only a few people actually own the mineral rights which allows the government to tell you how much of "Their" water you can use.  Especially farmers.  They all have meters on their wells.

That is probably how the Phosphate industry can devastate the land like they have and still are doing.


----------



## Chris

I know my water is owned by the local water district. We have no meter but I am sure they have it in the works. Then they will find a way to charge me for it too.


----------



## bud16415

Where I live, I live in the township but on the edge of the borough and some years back the neighbors asked to be connected to the borough water and sewer. So they made everyone close their wells and fill their septic systems. One neighbor only wanted the sewer but to keep his well so they put a meter on his well and he only pays the sewer half of the bill. When I put in the hot tub I got to wondering if it would be cheaper to figure out some other way to fill it and I called the water authority and was surprised to find out all I have to do is tell them when I fill it and they will subtract 500 gallons from my sewer bill and just pay for the treated water. Very fair. 

That&#8217;s at a local level. I can&#8217;t see the state or federal government thinking that clearly. The country is upside down with taxes and services IMO the local government should do the most and get the majority of your tax dollars the federal be involved the least and get the smallest amount of your money. That&#8217;s the way founding fathers envisioned it.


----------



## Speedbump

> I know my water is owned by the local water district. We have no meter but I am sure they have it in the works. Then they will find a way to charge me for it too



They thought about doing the meter thing here and thought better of it when they realized they were messing with voters.


----------



## frodo

i have never heard of no meter on city water, 

i want to have a well drilled, am told it is 500 feet to water


----------



## Speedbump

I don't mean on city water, they were thinking about making people put meters on their wells and charging them for using the water.  Of course when the pump needed to be replaced, they wouldn't be there to kick in some money.


----------



## Chris

Thats how I feel, if they want to put a meter on my well and charge me for the water. They can do that as long as they maintenance it and put in their own power source for the pump. I pay about 90 bucks a month on power for the pump.


----------



## nealtw

When the water is gone there will be need for the pump.Just saying.


----------



## Speedbump

> Thats how I feel, if they want to put a meter on my well and charge me for the water. They can do that as long as they maintenance it and put in their own power source for the pump. I pay about 90 bucks a month on power for the pump.



And the county is making money off the electric bill you are paying in the form of taxes, fees or whatever they want to call it.


----------



## frodo

who owns the mineral rights ?  who owns the water ?

I would be ________if i would pay them for my water from my land

that is not only no, but hell no


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> When the water is gone there will be need for the pump.Just saying.



That doesn't make it acceptable to put a meter on a well. Really what does putting a meter on a well do for anything other than make money for the water district? They are not going to force anyone to use less, they are just going to make money off of the situation.

If they were truly concerned about running out of water they would do something about it. Maybe give a daily amount and then the meter shuts off? All they seem to be interested in is making money off the situation.

The news last night kept saying how we should be turning in our neighbors if we see them using too much water. Since when am I supposed to be the judge of how much water one gets.

Maybe instead of spending money on high speed trains and other ridiculous ideas we spend money on a pipeline from the rest of the flooded country to here for a more permanent fix.


----------



## Speedbump

The State government own's all but a little bit of the States mineral rights here in Florida.

Like Chris said, if they were really concerned in saving the water they would do something about it instead of trying to make money with it.  I don't know if you have many springs in Colliefornia, but we sure have them here in Florida.  If they wanted to do anything about a water shortage here, they could just tap the springs that spew billions of gallons of water every day into the Gulf or the Atlantic.  The only people who talk about that are people with some walking around sense.


----------



## Chris

We have some springs and we have many rivers that flow to the ocean. We are not allowed to tap those because it may or may not effect a certain fish that has six remaining in our area. That and all the tree huggers would rather watch that water go away than use it to live ourselves. I tiny weed or a fish that will probably survive anyway are more important that humans around here. I'm not saying those things are not important but when it comes down to them or us I hope we make the correct decision.


----------



## frodo

Chris said:


> That doesn't make it acceptable to put a meter on a well. Really what does putting a meter on a well do for anything other than make money for the water district? They are not going to force anyone to use less, they are just going to make money off of the situation.
> 
> If they were truly concerned about running out of water they would do something about it. Maybe give a daily amount and then the meter shuts off? All they seem to be interested in is making money off the situation.
> 
> The news last night kept saying how we should be turning in our neighbors if we see them using too much water. Since when am I supposed to be the judge of how much water one gets.
> 
> Maybe instead of spending money on high speed trains and other ridiculous ideas we spend money on a pipeline from the rest of the flooded country to here for a more permanent fix.




Nazi's did the same thing in 1930 germany..had neighbor turning in neighbor


----------



## Chris

They are really pushing that here now. Ive seen it on TV and heard it on the radio. Even encouraging people to drive around and look for it. 

It's getting closer to time to leave this state.


----------



## Speedbump

The real bad part of all this is, it might start in California, but the other states eventually follow suit.  Once it happens, we can never go back.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> That doesn't make it acceptable to put a meter on a well. Really what does putting a meter on a well do for anything other than make money for the water district? They are not going to force anyone to use less, they are just going to make money off of the situation.
> 
> If they were truly concerned about running out of water they would do something about it. Maybe give a daily amount and then the meter shuts off? All they seem to be interested in is making money off the situation.
> 
> The news last night kept saying how we should be turning in our neighbors if we see them using too much water. Since when am I supposed to be the judge of how much water one gets.
> 
> Maybe instead of spending money on high speed trains and other ridiculous ideas we spend money on a pipeline from the rest of the flooded country to here for a more permanent fix.



Well in my crooked little mine, I think the aquifer belongs to the people and if the people don't regulate it, some one will be watering his lawn three times a week, and using more than his or her share. By now you have to know that it is not a never ending supply and if you and your neighbors don't control it, it could be gone. Oh ya, that' what you elected people to do.


----------



## buffalo

Iraq and Mesopotamia is supposed to be the cradle of civilization (I think not),  you think all those people live there because it's a desert? No , thousands of years ago it was fertile. Weather patterns change , and the majority of civilizations past , were destroyed by them. Along with greed maybe.


----------



## slownsteady

Chris said:


> We have some springs and we have many rivers that flow to the ocean. We are not allowed to tap those because it may or may not effect a certain fish that has six remaining in our area. That and all the tree huggers would rather watch that water go away than use it to live ourselves. I tiny weed or a fish that will probably survive anyway are more important that humans around here. I'm not saying those things are not important but when it comes down to them or us I hope we make the correct decision.



Yeah, but there are so many of us..........


----------



## Chris

Maybe we should kill off half of us? It would solve a lot of problems.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Maybe we should kill off half of us? It would solve a lot of problems.



Free birth control??


----------



## nealtw

Raise the min wage to $50 all the companies would leave the people will follow, No people, no water, no problem:banana:


----------



## Chris

We already have free birth control. Need a different route.


----------



## nealtw

What drives me nuts, out here we had a dryer than normal winter and warmer tnan normal spring, and now they are talking about low snow pack, like it just happenned last week. You do wonder what we pay these people for,


----------



## Speedbump

> By now you have to know that it is not a never ending supply and if you and your neighbors don't control it, it could be gone.


Where is it going to go?


----------



## nealtw

Speedbump said:


> Where is it going to go?



Are you implying the water supplying wells is a never ending supply, where do you think it comes from?


----------



## bud16415

Speedbump said:


> Where is it going to go?


 

I know where some of it went its been raining here for a week straight and all drainage is at capacity.


----------



## oldognewtrick

nealtw said:


> Are you implying the water supplying wells is a never ending supply, where do you think it comes from?



Pretty sure it evaporates, makes clouds and rains on Erie, PA


----------



## Chris

I really truly believe in about eight months we are going to be flooding here. Hopefully it is enough to put a bunch of water back in the ground.

Water doesn't go away and we will always have water. The question is where will the water be.


----------



## nealtw

oldognewtrick said:


> Pretty sure it evaporates, makes clouds and rains on Erie, PA



If it was oil they would just pipe it back to Cal.


----------



## Speedbump

> Are you implying the water supplying wells is a never ending supply, where do you think it comes from?


Water is reused over and over again.  It evaporates, rains, soaks into the ground and gets filtered.  Wells are simply conduits to the aquifer from where the water is pumped to the surface where it us used for drinking, bathing and irrigation where it again evaporates, rains...

Sewage is just two steps short of the evaporate/rain cycle.


----------



## bud16415

I watched a program about waste water management and the laws along the Mississippi river and how many times the water gets used on its way thru. The part that amazed me is take town &#8220;A&#8221; up north they by law take out the water and have to clean it before sending it out in pipes to their consumers. They have a level of clean they have to maintain before it can be sent to homes. The water is then used and returned to their waste water treatment and by law they have to clean it many times cleaner than the processed water sent to the homes before they dump it back into the river. The ratio was 50 times I believe. They showed a glass of this water and the guy said this is the cleanest water you will ever see and it was being dumped back in the river for the next town &#8220;B&#8221; to take out and re-clean. The host of the show asked if it&#8217;s that clean and pure why waste all that energy processing it only to throw it in with dirty water, why not just send it back to your customers. The guy said well no one wants to drink waste water. So by the time the water gets to town &#8220;Z&#8221; how much wasted processing has gone on. 

At my old house I had a well and septic and I never cared how many gallons my toilet used to flush as the eco cycle was all right there in front of me. Was I really wasting water if I had a five gallon flush toilet?


----------



## Speedbump

Bud, that sounds like something only the government could come up with.  Totally wasted effort as far as I'm concerned.

The other thing that bothers me is that people want their water to be so pristine that it's actually bad for them once it's cleaned to that degree.  PH goes way down, no minerals which are good for your etc.  Then they will go to the store and buy a case of bottled water that has no regulations and they have no idea where it came from. Usually from a tap.


----------



## Chris

I do a lot of work at a bottling facility and it is just tap water with added chemicals.

My well water tastes great out of the faucet but most people that come over are scared to drink it.


----------



## bud16415

At our old house we had a 100 yr old well and the previous owners lived there for something like 70 years drinking the water. Some water treatment company called when I wasn&#8217;t home and were invited over to give us a &#8220;Free&#8221; water test. I was so mad but I let these two jokers come in with their science lab kit and they started putting on their show at the kitchen table. I offered them both a glass of water and they declined so I poured myself one. As they added a drop of this and a drop of that our water turned brown and looked like well you know what and the one guy said that&#8217;s what you are drinking do you want to drink that. As I sipped my water I told them it must be good for you whatever it is the last folks drinking it are almost 100. I had to kick them out after an hour and never did get my free gift.   We have a bottle plant in our little town and it takes the same water everyone in town drinks and puts it in bottles and calls it some mountain name.


----------



## Speedbump

Whoever sold the American public on the idea that well water was bad must have had some gift of gab!  Because he did a great job convincing people that water from a well with no added chemicals is bad but city water with three poisonous chemicals in it is good for you.


----------



## Chris

Speaking of California, today I went to the DMV because I never received my year sticker in the mail. I filled out the forms and they said they needed to see my pink slip to my truck. They showed someone else as the lien holder. I brought it back in to prove I owned my truck. It turns out the DMV made a mistake in the paperwork when I paid off my truck so their system was wrong. I had to pay 15 bucks for a new title to fix the problem. I argued that it was not my problem and they said the title I had was fine and works like any other title but I wouldn't get my tags. She kept saying it's only 15 dollars and its fixed. I eventually paid it and left. I hate this place!


----------



## slownsteady

an article on what Chris was talking about on the previous page...

http://www.npr.org/2015/06/15/414616299/endangered-species-protections-at-center-of-drought-debate


----------



## nealtw

The tree huggers up here were complaining that some big companies like water bottlers and oil companies wern't paying their share for the water or were using more than they should. So the BC government spent a few million studying the situation and came up with a new evaluation to make it more fair. Now Nestlé has to pay there share for the water they use. $2.25 for 1,000,000 litres. I think I have to go with the tree huggers on this one.


----------



## Chris

Yeah they pay a whole lot more down here for water. Nobody gets anything for free.


----------



## Chris

I installed a new water service for Niagara and just the permit fee was well over a hundred grand for the same thing I would spend hundreds on if it were for my house.


----------



## nealtw

I can't find how much Nestles pays for water in California.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/california-drought-s-newest-battlefront-is-bottled-water-1.3074419


----------



## Chris

Much of so cal has been able to drop water usage by almost 30%. Now we are having water main breaks again. We had three major ones yesterday and another last night.


----------



## Speedbump

Sounds like Tampa.  Since the pipes were put in many many years ago, they keep breaking.  Instead of using some of the left over money they collect for water usage for installing new piping, they spend it on stupid stuff.  Typical Government.  If people knew how much profit there was in city water, they would riot.


----------



## Chris

Yesterday they announced rate increases due to less use of water and needing to fix old pipes.


----------



## Speedbump

> Yesterday they announced rate increases due to less use of water and needing to fix old pipes.


Your kidding right???


----------



## bud16415

Speedbump said:


> Your kidding right???


 

Works for me. People are using 30% less water the state didnt lay 30% of the work force off, so I would guess they have to raise prices hmmm about 30%. 

A old timer once told me when I was complaining about a little foreign car I had and how much it cost to keep running, he said If you want all that economy then you have to pay for it.


----------



## slownsteady

> If you want all that economy then you have to pay for it.



  I couldn't have said it better.


----------



## Chris

Not kidding! It was on the news yesterday.


----------



## bud16415

Think about any other business model in private enterprise that would work that way. Private business wants you to consume more so they can sell more. And they will figure out every time how to give you a &#8220;better product&#8221; for less cost if they can to direct the sales in their direction. Yes sometimes they go too far in search of less cost and lessen the quality and the consumers vote every time they buy an item if the cost and quality are acceptable to them. If the government would get out of water and let people figure out how to get more of it and better quality and sell it at a profit it would happen.


----------



## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> Think about any other business model in private enterprise that would work that way. Private business wants you to consume more so they can sell more. And they will figure out every time how to give you a better product for less cost if they can to direct the sales in their direction. Yes sometimes they go too far in search of less cost and lessen the quality and the consumers vote every time they buy an item if the cost and quality are acceptable to them. If the government would get out of water and let people figure out how to get more of it and better quality and sell it at a profit it would happen.



What model are you proposing, oil, gold. cars. Shareholders and CEOs, charging what the market will bear. Perhaps varying quality for different price range. Like cars and telephones. Perhaps like people that don't drive can take the bus they could also pick up water at the puplic tap down on the corner.
From a country where we hear so much about rights I think if you are not looking at the right to clean air and water, you have been drinking something other that water.


----------



## bud16415

nealtw said:


> What model are you proposing, oil, gold. cars. Shareholders and CEOs, charging what the market will bear. Perhaps varying quality for different price range. Like cars and telephones. Perhaps like people that don't drive can take the bus they could also pick up water at the puplic tap down on the corner.
> From a country where we hear so much about rights I think if you are not looking at the right to clean air and water, you have been drinking something other that water.


 

Exactly the models I was thinking of in fact. The fact that you have electricity and cable tv and cars and telephones and cellular phones and iPhones and food is because of free markets and free enterprise. If I live out in the country and I want to dig a well and pump up water and my neighbors want to pay for it instead of digging a well of their own what is wrong with that. If I can figure out a way to take salt out of the ocean water and make clean water and I build a machine that can do that for people why cant I sell it and make a profit. And if they start selling like hot cakes Im not going to say oh no 30% of you cant have one I will want to sell one to everyone. People used to beat rugs to get them clean. It would be like saying people have a god given right to beat rugs and no one should come along and invent sweepers and get rich selling them. The government couldnt invent their way out of a paper bag and all they do is play tricks with numbers to control people. Where are the ideas on the water shortage coming out of government. What governor is inventing a solution to the problem. All they know how to do is make laws and fine you or lock you up. Or protect some fish and starve people of water.


----------



## Chris

On a side note gas jumped up almost a buck today. 4.39 here by my house.

Something about they didn't ship in enough and a refinery breaking down.


----------



## Speedbump

> From a country where we hear so much about rights I think if you are not looking at the right to clean air and water, you have been drinking something other that water.


I am already drinking something else!


> On a side note gas jumped up almost a buck today. 4.39 here by my house.
> 
> Something about they didn't ship in enough and a refinery breaking down.


Wow, it's around $2.50 here.


----------



## Chris

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Repair1436641072.934470.jpg


This morning.......


----------



## Speedbump

Here's one just down the street from my house.


----------



## buffalo

Wow , diesel is always higher out here. We are typically the 2nd highest prices in the nation , behind california. Nobody knows why....


----------



## Chris

Diesel has always been cheaper here but that is usually because gas is so expensive.


----------



## slownsteady

buffalo said:


> Wow , diesel is always higher out here. We are typically the 2nd highest prices in the nation , behind california. Nobody knows why....



Here too. Diesel is about the price of premium gas. Same in PA, from what I can see.


----------



## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> Exactly the models I was thinking of in fact. The fact that you have electricity and cable tv and cars and telephones and cellular phones and iPhones and food is because of free markets and free enterprise. If I live out in the country and I want to dig a well and pump up water and my neighbors want to pay for it instead of digging a well of their own what is wrong with that. If I can figure out a way to take salt out of the ocean water and make clean water and I build a machine that can do that for people why cant I sell it and make a profit. And if they start selling like hot cakes Im not going to say oh no 30% of you cant have one I will want to sell one to everyone. People used to beat rugs to get them clean. It would be like saying people have a god given right to beat rugs and no one should come along and invent sweepers and get rich selling them. The government couldnt invent their way out of a paper bag and all they do is play tricks with numbers to control people. Where are the ideas on the water shortage coming out of government. What governor is inventing a solution to the problem. All they know how to do is make laws and fine you or lock you up. Or protect some fish and starve people of water.


I would think fishing might be a good way for some to make a living and the same for farming, nevermind they are food souces for the masses, might be something almost important as water. We already saw what big business did to the golf and the coast of Alaska.


----------



## bud16415

nealtw said:


> I would think fishing might be a good way for some to make a living and the same for farming, nevermind they are food souces for the masses, might be something almost important as water. We already saw what big business did to the golf and the coast of Alaska.


 

Farming, Fishing and Oil are all great industries and all have been responsible for environmental mishaps. Look at the dust bowl in the 30s or killer bees brought to Brazil in the 50s or the over fishing of the Great Lakes where I live. Yes there have been Oil related disasters manmade and naturally occurring. Not to mention Mount St Helens in 1980. All these things are bad, and water is important.

Do anything long enough and there will be a mishap even working on houses. 

Everything bad hasnt happened do to greed and big companies and everything good hasnt been because of the little guy. How many billions of gallons of fuel have been shipped without a problem. Pipelines work safer than train cars or ships but some people are against pipelines and some in government as well. 

Im not saying there are not many great advancements dealing with water that need to be done. I just dont see government should be in the drivers seat getting them done. Try and imagine building Hover Dam today, it was a big deal in the 30s whos talking about a project like that today?


----------



## Speedbump

Diesel has always been higher here too.  I have no idea why.  It can't be as expensive to refine as gasoline, but the price still remains higher.  I bought some yesterday for $2.4? per gallon.


----------



## buffalo

Diesel is cheaper to refine than gas. I'm told it's because it's traded as a commodity and in more demand than supply as opposed to gas. I drive a dodge cummins. 240k miles and I'm going to get every last mile I can out of her. Buying a vechicle is just crazy now days. You lose 5k driving off the lot!


----------



## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> Farming, Fishing and Oil are all great industries and all have been responsible for environmental mishaps. Look at the dust bowl in the 30&#8217;s or killer bees brought to Brazil in the 50&#8217;s or the over fishing of the Great Lakes where I live. Yes there have been Oil related disasters manmade and naturally occurring. Not to mention Mount St Helens in 1980. All these things are bad, and water is important.
> 
> Do anything long enough and there will be a mishap even working on houses.
> 
> Everything bad hasn&#8217;t happened do to greed and big companies and everything good hasn&#8217;t been because of the little guy. How many billions of gallons of fuel have been shipped without a problem. Pipelines work safer than train cars or ships but some people are against pipelines and some in government as well.
> 
> I&#8217;m not saying there are not many great advancements dealing with water that need to be done. I just don&#8217;t see government should be in the driver&#8217;s seat getting them done. Try and imagine building Hover Dam today, it was a big deal in the 30&#8217;s who&#8217;s talking about a project like that today?



http://www.newrepublic.com/article/...il-fuel-exploration-double-under-obamas-watch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/walmart-government-subsidies-study
Give me a break!


----------



## Chris

buffalo said:


> Diesel is cheaper to refine than gas. I'm told it's because it's traded as a commodity and in more demand than supply as opposed to gas. I drive a dodge cummins. 240k miles and I'm going to get every last mile I can out of her. Buying a vechicle is just crazy now days. You lose 5k driving off the lot!




I have the same truck. Best one out there and hope you don't plan on getting rid of it because it will likely outlast any new car you buy.


----------



## bud16415

What some people don&#8217;t know from a barrel of crude oil you don&#8217;t get to pick and choose what you make from it. There is a distillation process and it yields what it can of gasoline and diesel. When it was first drilled for the product they wanted was kerosene for home lighting and the more volatile stuff like gasoline was considered too dangerous to use as there were no cars with engines to burn it in. They were brewing out what they could sell that had uses and dumping the rest, massive pollution issues. The country was becoming electrified but mostly only the cities thus the huge demand for lamp oil. Guys like Ford came along and said don&#8217;t throw that fuel out we could build automobiles to use it with internal combustion engines. Over the years the industry has found uses for all of it. People hate the plastic products but they are really a byproduct and need to be used up for something. The evil corporation McDonalds used to give you your sandwich in a little box made of foam. It was cleaner cheaper and a 100 times more environmental friendly than a paper box that uses lots of energy to make. It also kept your food warmer and broke down quickly in landfills to almost nothing but a soil amendment. The public outcry over McDonalds not being green with these evil foam containers caused them to change back to the manufactured &#8220;Green&#8221; paper box. 

The proportion of gas and diesel being used has to stay in balance. We all can&#8217;t drive diesel. That is one of many factors that go into the pricing. There is also more tax on diesel going back to Nixon as only large trucks then used it and it was a way to increase road tax on one group indirectly. 

Here is the breakdown. 
http://www.oilspillsolutions.org/refining.htm


Good Read.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a4567/4330313/


----------



## slownsteady

This is a little confusing, as I understand that home heating oil and diesel are actually the same thing. I wonder if this infographic is actual production or just an illustration of where the product goes in the market.

But that could also help explain why CA has low diesel prices, ....because they have less demand for home heating oil.


----------



## bud16415

Diesel as far as I know has to be cleaner than home heating oil due to regulations. And off road gets a red dye. Diesels will run on quite a few things. I have a friend that takes all the used cooking oil from around town runs it thru a filter and has a tank with a heater in it in his truck to get it thin enough and plows snow with krispy Kream oil and his truck running makes you hungry for donuts. 

I&#8217;m sure there is overlap between fuel and heating oil so it could reflect how it is sold.


----------



## nealtw

I have read that something like 20 big ships pump more crap in the air than all the cars in the world.


----------



## Chris

Just like a normal lawn mower pollutes more in its life than you new car does. Don't know how true it is but I believe it.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Just like a normal lawn mower pollutes more in its life than you new car does. Don't know how true it is but I believe it.



No catalytic converter on the lawn mowers but I think that is still a stretch, if you look at the amount it is used.


----------



## buffalo

bud16415 said:


> Diesel as far as I know has to be cleaner than home heating oil due to regulations. And off road gets a red dye. Diesels will run on quite a few things. I have a friend that takes all the used cooking oil from around town runs it thru a filter and has a tank with a heater in it in his truck to get it thin enough and plows snow with krispy Kream oil and his truck running makes you hungry for donuts.
> 
> Im sure there is overlap between fuel and heating oil so it could reflect how it is sold.



From what I know , as a dummy keep in mind , diesel and heating oil are the same. There is #1 and #2 diesel , I forget which , but it's sold in winter here for vechicles. The winter diesel and heating oil are the same , heating oil and off road diesel are dyed red. Thas why they dip tanks on truckers .....red dye means no road tax was added and a big fine. 

  I have ran heating oil in my truck alot , because people convert thier furnaces to natural gas , and I have taken what was left in thier tank and ran it in my truck. 

Diesel engines themselves can run just about anything as a fuel. Coal , natural gas , ect. It's just a matter of getting the fuel to it . Most vechicles are plumbed to accept clean diesel , with the injection pumps and injectors.

10 yrs ago I converted my truck to run on waste veggy oil. Did it for a bit. At the time , the pickup of the used oil charged restaurants to haul it away. Now they pay them to take it. So at that point it wasn't free anymore and a waste of time.


----------



## bud16415

buffalo said:


> From what I know , as a dummy keep in mind , diesel and heating oil are the same. There is #1 and #2 diesel , I forget which , but it's sold in winter here for vechicles. The winter diesel and heating oil are the same , heating oil and off road diesel are dyed red. Thas why they dip tanks on truckers .....red dye means no road tax was added and a big fine.
> 
> I have ran heating oil in my truck alot , because people convert thier furnaces to natural gas , and I have taken what was left in thier tank and ran it in my truck.
> 
> Diesel engines themselves can run just about anything as a fuel. Coal , natural gas , ect. It's just a matter of getting the fuel to it . Most vechicles are plumbed to accept clean diesel , with the injection pumps and injectors.
> 
> 10 yrs ago I converted my truck to run on waste veggy oil. Did it for a bit. At the time , the pickup of the used oil charged restaurants to haul it away. Now they pay them to take it. So at that point it wasn't free anymore and a waste of time.


 

Diesel and home heating oil are the same if you compare off road diesel. At least in the states on road diesel the stuff without the red die are held to a higher standard and or have ash and sulphur removed or lowered to meet emission regulations. You are not allowed as you mentioned to run any of the red dyed diesel in an on road. The fine is quite high and they go back based on the miles on your odometer and fine you so much per mile assuming you have used it all along so if you have 250,000 miles on your truck and they dip your tank you are going to be paying the rest of your life.

I know a kid that runs red diesel and he keeps a half dozen empty ATF bottles in the back of his truck and tells me if he gets stopped hes going to tell them hell ya its red I add ATF to my fuel as it helps my engine. Some of his red neck buddies told him this works. I told him to knock it off as hes going to get fined. Time will tell.


----------



## Chris

Three more major water line breaks last night.

These pipes can't handle the pressure and surges they get when people are not using water. During the day so many people use water that it keeps the pressures lower throughout the system and at night it used to be irrigation. Now with much less night time usage thing are popping.


----------



## Speedbump

The good citizens of California have created this mess by being obedient to the powers that be by using less water.  NOW WHAT?

Hey, I heard California is in for an El nina or nino.  I don't know which one is which, but it sounds like you may be in for flooding and all that sort of thing.

I guess you have to be careful what you wish for.


----------



## Chris

There is a lot of talk about floods and lots and lots of rain this year. Wonder if they will still be singing the same tune this time next year.


----------



## Chris

I throughly confused now. The news just reported that we had six major storms up north in the last couple of months that has kept our reservoirs full and without them we might have faced a shortage.


----------



## nealtw

Some fire on 15 today..


----------



## havasu

I'm glued to the TV watching that fire take out those cars. 

I'm also hearing about this great "El Nino" coming this fall/winter. I sure hope it waits for me to install drains and gutters.


----------



## Chris

I'm ready.


----------



## Speedbump

I'm wondering if it wouldn't have been safer to drive the car out of the way of the fire instead of running.  I didn't see the whole news clip though.



> There is a lot of talk about floods and lots and lots of rain this year. Wonder if they will still be singing the same tune this time next year.


They will be raising your taxes to build better storm drains to get rid of all that water.


----------



## Chris

People on the news said they were driving away from the fire but the fire department blocked them off and stopped them. They also said it was more of a free for all with no help or coordination from authorities.


----------



## Chris

It's been raining all morning and is supposed to for the next couple days.


----------



## Chris

Been raining two days now. Things are wet


----------



## Chris

Off my back porch.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Repair1437358248.967985.jpg


----------



## Chris

So I think in the last couple days we have had more if a winter than we did all winter. I have done more repairs to our road today than I have since January.


----------



## Speedbump

> People on the news said they were driving away from the fire but the fire department blocked them off and stopped them. They also said it was more of a free for all with no help or coordination from authorities.


That sounds typical.  I won't go into why I say that.

Sounds like the drought is over!


----------



## Chris

I'm sure the drought is still in full effect. I'm sure they will use it to make as much money as they can until people catch on.


----------



## Chris

Watching the news this morning and flooding all over Southern California. I10 is closed between us and Arizona due to a bridge and part of the highway getting washed away. Parts got 2.5" of water in the last two days, if that doesn't sound like a lot we got 8" all of last year.


----------



## Speedbump

Once it becomes obvious that the drought is over, I wonder what the political types will come up with to make money with knowing there is too much water.

I know, they will need more money for new storm sewers etc.


----------



## bud16415

Speedbump said:


> Once it becomes obvious that the drought is over, I wonder what the political types will come up with to make money with knowing there is too much water.
> 
> I know, they will need more money for new storm sewers etc.


 

I think they will play the same card we always hear when we have a winter with weeks of temps 25 or 30 below zero and people start asking where is my global warming you promised.  They always come back with we are just an abnormality and or the increased cold is a sign of the warming of the polar icecaps and that heating is causing the cold. 
In this case they will disregard all the rain and as most of it wasnt collected and came on to fast to replenish the aquafer so it was all drained off and lost and rapid rainfalls are a sign of the overall heating of the planet and not a good sign at all and now we have to double down on the austerity measures. 
Dont be surprised if Al Gore makes another movie to explain it to us in simple terms the common uneducated folk can understand. Not to mention all the rain washed all the carbon out of the air and now that water isnt safe.


----------



## Speedbump

By golly I think your on to something!


----------



## slownsteady

bud16415 said:


> I think they will play the same card we always hear when we have a winter with weeks of temps 25 or 30 below zero and people start asking where is my global warming you promised.  They always come back with we are just an abnormality and or the increased cold is a sign of the warming of the polar icecaps and that heating is causing the cold.
> In this case they will disregard all the rain and as most of it wasnt collected and came on to fast to replenish the aquafer so it was all drained off and lost and rapid rainfalls are a sign of the overall heating of the planet and not a good sign at all and now we have to double down on the austerity measures.
> Dont be surprised if Al Gore makes another movie to explain it to us in simple terms the common uneducated folk can understand. Not to mention all the rain washed all the carbon out of the air and now that water isnt safe.



Forget "Global Warming". It is an unfortunate phrase that probably should never have been used. Just change those words to "Climate Change" and everything makes a lot more sense.


----------



## Chris

Digging up a six inch water main that let go today.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Repair1437441218.200628.jpg


----------



## bud16415

slownsteady said:


> Forget "Global Warming". It is an unfortunate phrase that probably should never have been used. Just change those words to "Climate Change" and everything makes a lot more sense.


 
I can get behind Climate Change in fact yesterday it was more than 120 degrees warmer here than it was just 6 months ago. Not just the heat, at -35F the humidity was just about zero percent and yesterday it was pushing 100%. So there is no doubt some climate change going on. There have been several Little Ice Ages recorded from 1600s to now. Some evidence goes back as far as 1200s thru carbon dating of plants froze in glacial ice. Good read on Climate Change over the last 800 or so years. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
Climate has been changing for a very long time. It changes short term and it changes long term when long term is a relative thing in terms of human activity and recording or being able to measure it with our current science. 
I only use the term global warming to show how ridicules that frenzy was. I totally support the use of Climate Change but I think the incorrect term now being used thats every bit as ridicules as global warming is Man-made Climate Change where the only factor of discussion is mans impact. It is even alluded to that it is more of a North American Man-made Climate Change or even a United States of America Man-made Climate Change. Lets take it really to where most really want to call it and come up with the new and proper term, United States of America Free Enterprise, Capitalism Industrial based economic Man-made Climate Change. That really spells it out best I think and places all the blame where it belongs whatever direction the climate goes.


----------



## buffalo

1816 is called the year without a summer .

The midevil warm period , England produced finer wine than france. Europe got dependent on wheat , when the weather changed , crops failed , people died. It led up to the black plague.



There is major evidence out there even further back , there were major climate disturbences. I don't have time to look them up , and you have to dig. Archeology and such professions are as corrupt as government itself. If you propose a theory agianst the textbook , your ridiculed and your funding is cut. Egyptogoly for example is BIG business , alot of tourism.  They don't like you messing with thier income. 

The world has a far different timeline and past that we are all taught . It's just a matter of fact that nobody really cares.


----------



## Chris

This valve started spewing when we shut down the water for our broken pipe. Call out the water district since it is their valve. It has been spraying for two days now and they are not worried about stopping it until they can send proper shut down notices. It's probably leaking 5-10 gallons a minute.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Repair1437531323.835651.jpg


View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Repair1437531337.583076.jpg


----------



## nealtw

That sounds dumb but I guess you have to look at what all gets shut down to do the work. How long would it take?


----------



## Chris

Shutting down a fourteen story apartment building for about an hour. The apartment personal just want to do it and don't need notice. It's the water department that has rules they need to follow. I guess we will see how day three goes.

Trust me, there is water wasted all day everyday on the government level but the rules don't apply to them.

I was listening to a news show last night about how water shortage is the new global warming. People just are not believing in that anymore so it's on to the next big thing.


----------



## nealtw

I have been reading about aquifers, refilling the with surface water is no small job. There is no argueing about lake Meed looks like, you need snow in the mountains. We have had record heat and dry here. It's starting to feel like California. Not used to it, we are supposed to be in a rain forest.


----------



## Chris

We definitely need water but I don't think we are in any crazy drought, we are just in a natural cycle. We will get water back, it's just a matter of when. We could have a heavy winter and fill everything up. Who knows?

We should all do our best to conserve resources at any rate. I just hate that everything now days is used as an excuse to make more money. Water rates are going up because we are using less yet a year or two from now when we have plenty of water rates will go up again to pay for getting rid of excess water. These water companies are supposed to be a not for profit yet at the same time they are saying they need to raise rates to make an extra 250 million a year they are donating 250 million a year of excess money's to the city of Los Angeles. It's all the scams and fake reasons for things that upset people. If they were are truly running a good business and needed more than people wouldn't hesitate to give more.


----------



## buffalo

Plenty of water in NY this summer. Alot of flooding , luckly I have a gorge with a 30' drop past my yard . I always complain about our weather , and I have always loved the idea of California , but you guys have way to many problems. 

  Here , no tornados , hurricanes , earth quakes , wild fires ....ect. just hard winters with snow. I guess it's a trade off for that awesome view you have.


----------



## Chris

I just had a girl from Indiana come into my office to try and sell me something, she was worried thinking there might be a tsunami or something. I had to laugh because I can't even remember the last time I even felt an earthquake. Really it is pretty mild here, weather is better than most of the world and it is beautiful. but then we have too many people, politics and a fee for everything. Gotta take the bad with the good I guess.


----------



## Chris

The news has mentioned that residents use about 4% of the states water and we are the only ones being asked to cut or face fines. Everything I found online says we use closer to 10%, here is kinda what the uses are from online sources.

Wild and scenic rivers protected under federal law get 31 percent.

In other rivers, we keep water flowing at a certain rate for recreation, environmental reasons or both. Maintaining such &#8220;instream flows&#8221; takes around 9 percent.

Keeping seawater out of the Sacramento-San Joaquin River Delta &#8212; the source of much of the state's drinking water &#8212; uses about 7 percent.

Managed wetlands get 2 percent.

Cities and towns get 10 percent.

agricultural irrigation accounts for around 41 percent of the state&#8217;s water pie.


----------



## Speedbump

Looks to me like the only ones who supposedly use the most are the only ones who allow the water used to run right back into the ground on which it was used to seep back into the aquifer from where it came.

You know that it's the evil Republicans who really use the most.  And it's Bush's fault!


----------



## havasu

I can easily solve the problem, just like they did with the Alaskan Pipeline. Every resident from Alaska receives a small kickback of money from the revenue earned from this pipeline. They need to up the costs of any and all produce grown in California, and allow this same kickback to the residents of California, to offset the cost of using all of our water to feed the world.


----------



## Speedbump

Nope... won't work.  The politicians have the rights to ALL kickbacks.


----------



## frodo

havasu said:


> I can easily solve the problem, just like they did with the Alaskan Pipeline. Every resident from Alaska receives a small kickback of money from the revenue earned from this pipeline. They need to up the costs of any and all produce grown in California, and allow this same kickback to the residents of California, to offset the cost of using all of our water to feed the world.



we are already giving 3/4 of the people in california government checks for food stamps and welfare,  might as well send 2 checks in the same envelope

need to pay the illegal aliens an extra 10%  just because 
and the transgenders...they get an extra 10%  cause they wannna be treated the same

I miss anybody?


----------



## Chris

You know whats sad? The fact that a few large cities in our state give the rest of the country the image that we are all deadbeats. Its very true of LA, San Diego, San Francisco, Sacramento and a few other places but really California is full of some really good people and places.

I know that I know at least two or three good people........


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> You know whats sad? The fact that a few large cities in our state give the rest of the country the image that we are all deadbeats. Its very true of LA, San Diego, San Francisco, Sacramento and a few other places but really California is full of some really good people and places.
> 
> I know that I know at least two or three good people........



And they are all members here.:banana:


----------



## frodo

Chris said:


> You know whats sad? The fact that a few large cities in our state give the rest of the country the image that we are all deadbeats. Its very true of LA, San Diego, San Francisco, Sacramento and a few other places but really California is full of some really good people and places.
> 
> I know that I know at least two or three good people........




I was stationed at Mather AFB.  sacto, calif..I enjoyed the american river very much..went camping all the time.

hung out at hoffman park.

nice place, The politics and the rich a-holes spoil it for every body else


----------



## nealtw

https://www.revealnews.org/


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> https://www.revealnews.org/




I just learned about Jehovah's witnesses and how they hide sex abuse in their church.


----------



## bud16415

Chris said:


> You know whats sad? The fact that a few large cities in our state give the rest of the country the image that we are all deadbeats. Its very true of LA, San Diego, San Francisco, Sacramento and a few other places but really California is full of some really good people and places.
> 
> I know that I know at least two or three good people........


 

We all have our cross to bear. I would vote yes in a heartbeat to give Philadelphia to New Jersey. They can even have the liberty bell as well.


----------



## slownsteady

save your efforts. we don't want it....unless you want to trade for Camden.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> I just learned about Jehovah's witnesses and how they hide sex abuse in their church.



That wasn't the link I posted, it was about aquifers


----------



## bud16415

slownsteady said:


> save your efforts. we don't want it....unless you want to trade for Camden.


 

See how bad it is when your neighbors wont even take a free city let alone one of the most historic cities in the country.


----------



## frodo

bud16415 said:


> See how bad it is when your neighbors wont even take a free city let alone one of the most historic cities in the country.



thats because its old,  needs maintance, new pipes, foundation work

darn streets have brick that needs constant pointing.


----------



## frodo

If you want to get rid of jhovah witness or Mormons who KEEP coming to the door.

I did this back in 1990.

Poured sugar on the table and oregano,  invited them in,  started hitting on the girl jehovah,  asking her if she wanted to do some drugs.
They could not get out of that house fast enough!!!!  next time I saw them, they crossed to the other side of the street.
GOOD!!!!


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> That wasn't the link I posted, it was about aquifers



Every time I click on it it goes to the jehovas thing. I'd like to see what you tried to link.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Every time I click on it it goes to the jehovas thing. I'd like to see what you tried to link.



At their site, go to topics, then environment, the secrets of the drought,and
"9 sobering facts about Californias groundwater problem" is what I was trying to share.

They sure don't make it easy


----------



## nealtw

try this 
https://www.revealnews.org/topic/the-secrets-of-the-drought/


----------



## Chris

Interesting read and I have read similar before. That brings up the question of why we still haven't made better retention and detention systems along with pipelines from places that flood.


----------



## frodo

oh oh !! this is not good.

As water dwindles, lawmakers seek access to confidential well logs

In California, well completion reports are considered confidential under a 64-year-old state law. A hearing will consider new legislation that would make these well logs public.


----------



## nealtw

Shade balls, really?


----------



## Chris

Three months ago it was all talk about the drought and how we are going to run out of water.

This months talk is rates are going up because people conserved water.

Water districts are having to find ways to get rid of excess water because people have not used enough.

I haven't heard the word drought in the news in well over a month.

All news is talking about El Niño and flooding and how we need to be prepared to get more water than we have gotten in decades.

Snow pack is already well over double where we were a year ago.

What I gather from all this is that the word drought was used to make money now and in the future. All these government rate hikes are not ever going away.


----------



## Speedbump

> Three months ago it was all talk about the drought and how we are going to run out of water.



Yup, what else is new???


----------



## bud16415

The only words that will describe it all and you are going to be hearing them every day are (Manmade climate change.)


----------



## slownsteady

Nobody worried until the drought happened and then the politicians did the only thing they know how to do; throw money at it. And yup, you won't see that money come back.
It's probably a good idea to assume the drought/rain cycle will be repeated more often now, so perhaps getting ready for the next drought isn't crazy.
And I'm sure there are plenty of thirsty small towns downstream just waiting for a chance to fill their reservoirs also.


----------



## nealtw

It's fine to knock the government for stuff we don't like but let's get real, who should pay for it and why.
!00 years ago all water was coming from the aquifers and that is a limited supply that will never recover to old levels
So in order to fill the bottom half of that state with people you needed water from the north and each city made commitments on how much they would pay for their share.
Take that total amount that has to be paid and the expence of operating the system and devide that by the volume of water used and you have a price to charge.
When you have a shortage of water, all the costs stay the same and you still need the money to operate the system, price has to go up.
So if cutbacks are working and everyone uses less water and the bills are the same, how would you suggest they pay for that.
It would cost millions for each city to start capturing there own water and the payment for the reserves in the north will still have to be made, who wants to pay for that extra.


----------



## Chris

I agree to a point. If we all have to cut back than the districts should also have to cut back. They play games with the money. LADWP Donates a quarter billion dollars a year to the city of LA of so called excess funds at the same time they are screaming they are a quarter billion short. Instead of stopping the donations of excess funds they raise rates so they ccan keep giving away excess.

Water districts don't cut back on anything. Yorba Linda Water is paying their spokesperson almost 200k a year.  A position that is not needed or could be cut for the time being.

They are selling their excess water to other government agencies, key word "excess". Supposedly water we don't have.

San Diego built up their infrastructure many years ago and are not in a shortage, state says they have to cut back and in turn charge more. They come on the news pleading with the state to not require cuts in their area because they have too much water. state say "Mandatory"

I don't have a problem with conserving or paying more for a service but especially here in California it is all politics and more ways for government to get more money out of the people. They will and have not done anything on their part to actually help with the problem at hand.


----------



## bud16415

nealtw said:


> It's fine to knock the government for stuff we don't like but let's get real, who should pay for it and why.
> !00 years ago all water was coming from the aquifers and that is a limited supply that will never recover to old levels
> So in order to fill the bottom half of that state with people you needed water from the north and each city made commitments on how much they would pay for their share.
> Take that total amount that has to be paid and the expence of operating the system and devide that by the volume of water used and you have a price to charge.
> When you have a shortage of water, all the costs stay the same and you still need the money to operate the system, price has to go up.
> So if cutbacks are working and everyone uses less water and the bills are the same, how would you suggest they pay for that.
> It would cost millions for each city to start capturing there own water and the payment for the reserves in the north will still have to be made, who wants to pay for that extra.



Neal you are starting to sound like a capitalist man. Way to go. The concept of supply and demand in a nutshell. The only thing the government leaves out of the equation is competition. Now if we could only have two or three governments all running and maintaining the water supply there would be an incentive for one of them to figure out a better way and get more of the market and lower prices. It would be more like the post office and fedx and ups only for water. Nothing controls demand like prices can.


----------



## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> Neal you are starting to sound like a capitalist man. Way to go. The concept of supply and demand in a nutshell. The only thing the government leaves out of the equation is competition. Now if we could only have two or three governments all running and maintaining the water supply there would be an incentive for one of them to figure out a better way and get more of the market and lower prices. It would be more like the post office and fedx and ups only for water. Nothing controls demand like prices can.



I would argue with that with just the immagination.
Immagine the oil companies not selling oil because there is a shortage of product and it will run out in a few months. They would pump baby pump and then take their money and file bankruptcy and leave customers high and dry.

Unless someone has sat in on city council meetings or water board or who ever makes the decissions and listen to the comments and arguements, it is just not fair to just blame them. And if someone has a better idea they should go and talk to those people.
I can immagine some company saying I can mine the water on my land and sell it. That's not hard to immagine as it is happening in your country now.
Aquifers are thousands of years old and when depleted will lose a % of capacity if you tried to refill them and the cost of re-filling will be higher than the cost of pumping the water out. Do you think those companies will re-fill the aquifer, dream on.


----------



## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> The only words that will describe it all and you are going to be hearing them every day are (Manmade climate change.)



It is funny how fast things can change, now that there is no pipeline and a different gov. both in Canada and Alberta check out what the Oil companies are saying now.
http://www.shell.ca/en/aboutshell/m...demonstrate-leadership-on-climate-change.html


----------



## Chris

I have sat in on meetings and work with districts on a daily basis.

I would be ok with the practices except the fact that if someone is not getting paid off nothing happens. We don't live in a society where we try and find the best and most cost effective way of doing business anymore. We have started so many programs and passed so much regulation that nothing can get done in a cost effective way. If we do try and do something to help the population than there is a group somewhere that will fight it until it just not worth doing anymore.

California is especially bad with this.


----------



## nealtw

That's not new, look at how many people died when the dam broke in San fransico or who made the money on electricity when they did get their dam.
But as voters it is up to us to figure out what is really going on and then choose the right people to vote for, either party. Or up here we have a multitude of parties to choose from
As an permintent member of the undecided I can tell you there is no good info to be had by talking to a member of any party.


----------



## Chris

I can agree with that. They are all corrupt in their own way. It's always a vote of the lesser evil.


----------



## slownsteady

bud16415 said:


> Neal you are starting to sound like a capitalist man. Way to go. The concept of supply and demand in a nutshell. The only thing the government leaves out of the equation is competition. Now if we could only have two or three governments all running and maintaining the water supply there would be an incentive for one of them to figure out a better way and get more of the market and lower prices. It would be more like the post office and fedx and ups only for water. Nothing controls demand like prices can.



"supply & demand in a nutshell". Exactly right, but can you imagine when the poor can't afford water - a life essential? If you think the oil wars are bad, wait until the water wars begin.


----------



## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> "supply & demand in a nutshell". Exactly right, but can you imagine when the poor can't afford water - a life essential? If you think the oil wars are bad, wait until the water wars begin.



That war has already started with the amount of water used for fracking and tailing ponds breaking thru over built dams and oil pipes breaking. Companies do a good job of regulating themselves. Let's get rid of unions so no one would dare talk and get rid of those nasty regulations and codes.


----------



## bud16415

71% of the earth surface is water and 96% of the water is polluted and undrinkable with salt. Man didn&#8217;t pollute this water the planet did it on its own. The planet also has an amazing built in water purification process. There are places on the planet that are already devoid of water and have been for 1000&#8217;s of years and there are other locations that have had an abundance of water and have for 1000&#8217;s of years. When people move to places without water and have never had water it becomes a problem of transportation of water and is it logical to do it or not. Southern states that have the potential for amazing agriculture given water make an excellent case for transporting water for such. Some population has to be in such an area to support the agriculture but the rest are there causing a demand without any benefit. Supply and demand is not in place to cause hardships it is in place to self-regulate. It is a manmade concept that is proven to work if it is not tampered with. 

As a kid we lived in the country and water had an associated cost to it. If you were on a well you had to pay for electricity to pump it if you lived in the township you had a meter and paid by the gallon. The city had an old system where government provided the water and sure you paid for it if you used it or not thru taxes. I would go to my aunt&#8217;s house in the city and ask my dad why their toilet ran all the time. He told me because my uncle was too cheap and lazy to replace the flapper that had been leaking for 10 years, and had no reason to because he didn&#8217;t pay for water. The people in the city were allowed to water their grass every other day depending on odd or even house numbers and they would stand out there for hours spraying water from a hose washing the sidewalk and driveway. We never watered our grass in the country. I asked my dad wasn&#8217;t that a waste of water and he said not really they pump it out of lake Erie and it runs down the storm drains back to lake Erie, but it is a waste of coal to make electricity to pump the water to the houses. 
The really amazing thing that happened was the city started running out of money, (They now have ran out of money) but they started to then and made a water authority and they figured out a way to put meters in each house and pay by supply and demand. The next week my uncle got off the couch and fixed the toilet and driveways and sidewalks started getting dirty. I don&#8217;t remember not taking a bath or poor people not getting a drink of water. People still watered their flowers and the grass grew some roots and the rain kept it alive.


----------



## nealtw

People will waste water no doubt whether they just live in a house or run big business, but as you stated there is a limit to usable water and it has to be used wizely. Cost does not alway change demand, you throw in cost benifet or just greed, during the shortage in California, there was areas that used moire water on their lawns, because they could (afford) it.
These are good reasons for good governess, it is up to you to find the right people to find that balance.

Another example of business not looking after business, Why is that some one has tell businesses how may washrooms to put in. Find a city that doesn't demand port-a-johns on construction sites and you won't see any.


----------



## bud16415

The opposite argument could be made for the wealthy wasting water regardless of the price. If they insist in using it wastefully in a supply and demand economy they will be lowering the overall cost for the poor by buying more. 

Most likely there is some porta john sanitation union that has the government in their pocket demanding their services be used. When you work in a big city do you often see the same company porta johns at all location or could a contractor build his own contained porta john and drag it from job site to job site to save cost. I bet if you tried that you would have some sort of paperwork in your hands within the hour. 

When we go to a trade show in any large cities the electrical unions control what happens on the convention floor electrically. If you need to plug in an extension cord you have to get a union guy to plug it in for $50 if you have a display that needs moved on a cart to your booth you have to find a union laborer to move the cardboard boxes for $50. There is always someone&#8217;s fingers in the pie no matter what.


----------



## nealtw

I can buy a port-a-john but it still needs to be cleaned, not a good examole of something most people want to get into.
Which came first the union cord plugger or stupid people overloading the circuits
Who gets sued at the show when you hurt a bystander with your cart of goods during the show.
Some of that that stuff is good management with or with out unions, it's more about insurance than pushy unions.
It's great fodder to blame unions and govment for all you think is wrong but come on spend ten minutes thinking about the bad stuff that might happen and how each person has to protect them self.
Big box stores close areas while a fork lift is in the area, that's not regs. or unions, that's insurance cost benifet.


----------



## slownsteady

> The opposite argument could be made for the wealthy wasting water regardless of the price. If they insist in using it wastefully in a supply and demand economy they will be lowering the overall cost for the poor by buying more.


Huh? Sorry, but you're going to have to explain this one and back it up.


----------



## Chris

nealtw said:


> I can buy a port-a-john but it still needs to be cleaned, not a good examole of something most people want to get into.
> Which came first the union cord plugger or stupid people overloading the circuits
> Who gets sued at the show when you hurt a bystander with your cart of goods during the show.
> Some of that that stuff is good management with or with out unions, it's more about insurance than pushy unions.
> It's great fodder to blame unions and govment for all you think is wrong but come on spend ten minutes thinking about the bad stuff that might happen and how each person has to protect them self.
> Big box stores close areas while a fork lift is in the area, that's not regs. or unions, that's insurance cost benifet.



Maybe thats where all our problems come from? People that don't think before they do things. We are forced to over regulate because people are dumb. I honestly do see it on a daily basis. Has this always been a problem?


----------



## slownsteady

It goes ALL THE WAY back.


----------



## bud16415

slownsteady said:


> Huh? Sorry, but you're going to have to explain this one and back it up.



Its called economies of scale and a main part of any microeconomics discussion. When you go black Friday shopping and score that 32 flat screen for 99 bucks the reason for that is that there are some 50 million other people doing the same thing and the rich ones are scoring the 80 incher for 3 grand. It all boils down to some 50,000 Asian workers now have a job and are making these things like popcorn and shipping them here. Yes there is that one or 100 or even 1000 guys that are profiting excessively from all this because they risked their money at the right time and on the right idea and are now the evil one percenter's and should be thrown in jail and their money should be given to the poor. 

You never once hear government talking about economies of scale But go in the board room of any private company and thats all they talk about.  

Read all about it. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale


----------



## Chris

Interesting. Never heard of it before but it makes complete sense.


----------



## havasu

For some reason, I don't see Chris talking about microeconomics with his crew during his debriefing at the local pub.


----------



## slownsteady

bud16415 said:


> It&#8217;s called &#8220;economies of scale&#8221; and a main part of any microeconomics discussion. When you go black Friday shopping and score that 32&#8221; flat screen for 99 bucks the reason for that is that there are some 50 million other people doing the same thing and the rich ones are scoring the 80 incher for 3 grand. It all boils down to some 50,000 Asian workers now have a job and are making these things like popcorn and shipping them here. Yes there is that one or 100 or even 1000 guys that are profiting excessively from all this because they risked their money at the right time and on the right idea and are now the evil &#8220;one percenter's&#8221; and should be thrown in jail and their money should be given to the poor.
> 
> You never once hear government talking about &#8220;economies of scale&#8221; But go in the board room of any private company and that&#8217;s all they talk about.
> 
> Read all about it.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale



Economics of scale may apply to manufactured goods. But water, like oil, is not subject to increased supply by cheap labor. And we all know that as supply decreases (i.e. drought) and demand increases (i.e. population growth), prices rise.


----------



## oldognewtrick

Yep, Chris's trickle down discussions are all held in the men's restroom. &#128561;


----------



## bud16415

There is the same amount of water on the planet there was a billion years ago. It goes around in a big circle sometimes it&#8217;s polluted with salt sometimes it is water vapor and sometimes it is sitting in my back yard in the largest supply of fresh water in the world the great lakes. What you are buying when you buy water is really a service and the consumable is energy to get it to you or make all those silly plastic bottles to hold a couple cups of it the ones everyone carries around being green. It is about an infrastructure getting it from where it is to a lot of people that live in a location nature says it shouldn&#8217;t be. So Neal is correct we are lowering the aquafer by putting it on the ground to grow things far away from the aquafer. 

Cheap labor is only one way of mass producing anything and really isn&#8217;t the best way. The best way is thru automation and I know you won&#8217;t believe it but automation makes more jobs than it consumes because it increases supplies of good and services thus bringing down cost and that causes demand. Water is a service you are paying for and as Chris mentioned they cut back on the usage by force of government and that drove the price up. There was a blip in the process and knee jerk reactions set all this into place now they have water that&#8217;s most likely going to end up in the ocean. 

If you have an electric car and a solar plant on your roof or windmill to charge your car raise your hand. That is all something we can go out and buy now and being DIY types could easily do ourselves. The thing that&#8217;s stopping it from happening is not the will to do it is economic. All it would cost you to get up and running is maybe $200,000.


----------



## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> Its called economies of scale and a main part of any microeconomics discussion. When you go black Friday shopping and score that 32 flat screen for 99 bucks the reason for that is that there are some 50 million other people doing the same thing and the rich ones are scoring the 80 incher for 3 grand. It all boils down to some 50,000 Asian workers now have a job and are making these things like popcorn and shipping them here. Yes there is that one or 100 or even 1000 guys that are profiting excessively from all this because they risked their money at the right time and on the right idea and are now the evil one percenter's and should be thrown in jail and their money should be given to the poor.
> 
> You never once hear government talking about economies of scale But go in the board room of any private company and thats all they talk about.
> 
> Read all about it.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale



So your big water company could scale up the amount of water to sell and yopu could buy it by the tub cheaper than the gallon. Like I said who fixes that when all the water is used and the company is gone.
Who care if the great lakes go dry and the is no usable water in N.Y. or N.O.

The acid rain was fiction and the ozone has no hole in it. You can pick your own truth but the facts will bit you in the ***.

There was a time when fair trade was the name of the game. Check the agreement between Canada and the US on auto manufacturing, worked fine for close to 50 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada–United_States_Automotive_Products_Agreement
And that was all about your scale.
But some how it's better to move shirt making to Bangladesh where there are less rules about working conditions and fire safety.
So when all the labour jobs are gone and there is limited number of jobs for the educated who are in debt for the rest of their lives, who buys the new phone then, scale has a limit.

Let's try this, you get your pink slip because your job just moved to China.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Interesting. Never heard of it before but it makes complete sense.



Back on subject, I just took this bit from AOL news

"It says you can drink the water -- but if you drink the water over a period of time, you can get cancer," said Alvarez, whose working-class family has no choice but keep drinking and cooking with the tainted tap water daily, as they have since Alvarez was just learning to walk. "They really don't explain."
Uranium, the stuff of nuclear fuel for power plants and atom bombs, increasingly is showing in drinking water systems in major farming regions of the U.S. West -- a naturally occurring but unexpected byproduct of irrigation, of drought, and of the overpumping of natural underground water reserves.
An Associated Press investigation in California's central farm valleys -- along with the U.S. Central Plains, among the areas most affected -- found authorities are doing little to inform the public at large of the growing risk.


----------



## Chris

Do you think it is from irrigation and pumping of water or all the chemicals we use to fertilize?

Maybe its time to only have farming in CA and not residents? It only makes sense seeing how the majority of the uS relies on our farming to feed their families.


----------



## nealtw

Chris said:


> Do you think it is from irrigation and pumping of water or all the chemicals we use to fertilize?
> 
> Maybe its time to only have farming in CA and not residents? It only makes sense seeing how the majority of the uS relies on our farming to feed their families.



That was mostly the notice they posted on farm workers doors, where most of the workers don't read english.
Do you think they want the rest of us to think about the farm produce as lit at niight?

From what I have read about how hard it is to get water back into the aquifer this stuff was likely put there at some time, makes you wonder about these guys pumping fracting water into the ground. 

This isn't local they showed hot spots all over the state.


----------



## nealtw

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/12/...htmlws-main-bb|dl1|sec1_lnk1&pLid=-1760862028


----------



## nealtw

talk about water consumption
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/...-energy-electricity-nuclear.html#.VmeK3ZtZjYY


----------



## Chris

February and it has been 85-90 degrees for weeks now. All my trees think it is summer. Our snow pack is where it is supposed to be for the most part but I was really hoping for this El Niño they kept talking about. Now they are saying it was too big to happen.

We have had more rain than in the last few years but still not as much as we needed.


----------



## Begreen

It's not the end of a drought yet but it looks like so far March has delivered some serious el Nino rains. 
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...nce-anemic-reserviors-20160315-htmlstory.html


----------



## Chris

We are not out of the drought but we are hovering over getting average rainfall this year.


----------



## bud16415

Too bad the min wage thread got closed. I had so many good thoughts about that and the rainfall and so many other things in your state I wanted to share. 

The guy measuring the snow pack on the news the other night was almost in tears having to say it was an average snow pack.


----------



## frodo

bud16415 said:


> Too bad the min wage thread got closed. I had so many good thoughts about that and the rainfall and so many other things in your state I wanted to share.
> 
> The guy measuring the snow pack on the news the other night was almost in tears having to say it was an average snow pack.




he blamed the drought on Bush, :rofl:


----------



## Chris

Thread is opened


----------



## havasu

Chris said:


> Thread is opened



'bout time turkey!:


----------



## Chris

Just wanted to bring this thread back. Seems it hasn't stopped raining this winter. Last winter we had one measurable day of rain and that was about it. This year Noth but water and the weeks forecast is rain. This is great for California but not for me trying to get stuff done.


----------



## Chris

Lakes are overflowing and towns are being evacuated due to to much water. I bet the price of water will go up again just like last year when we had no water they went up due to shortage now they will go up to manage the excess.


----------



## Speedbump

Seems like water is one of the things tax payers notice the least when prices go up.  Water doesn't cost the government much at all compared to what they all charge for it.
Just another disguised tax.


----------



## nealtw

Speedbump said:


> Seems like water is one of the things tax payers notice the least when prices go up.  Water doesn't cost the government much at all compared to what they all charge for it.
> Just another disguised tax.



The cost of the system has to come into that calculation


----------



## bud16415

nealtw said:


> The cost of the system has to come into that calculation



Ya have you priced lead lately it isnt cheap.


----------



## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> Ya have you priced lead lately it isnt cheap.



Well I was wondering if that dam is even paid for yet $1.3B 1968


----------



## Chris

Depends on how much of what we pay in bills and taxes goes to pay for these items and how much goes to stuff that has nothing to do with them. Our road taxes don't pay for our roads.


----------



## bud16415

nealtw said:


> Well I was wondering if that dam is even paid for yet $1.3B 1968



The Hoover dam only cost 49 million in 1936. 

We are just lucky we built this one in 1968 now it would cost a few trillion I bet.


----------



## Chris

I remember on my local news last year there was a small town that wanted to build a better and bigger dam in their town. It would cost about 1 million to build. By the time government got involved and with all the studies and reports they had to do along with different government permits it was about a 15 million dollar project. They scrapped it because they could come up with more than a couple million. This new dam would have held enough water to serve that town and a couple neighboring towns for something like a year or two without rain.


----------



## Chris

Thinking back on this thread and as I am currently switching over a golf course to reclaimed water because their wells are suffering. Last year we would get fined for using so many gallons of water all the while this one of many golf courses is pumping over a million gallons a day to water the grass. The same water district that fines me for having a green lawn hooked up a domestic line to fill the golf course lake last year and it is still filling until I am done with this project. Two 2" lines running at 150 PSI 24 hours a day. It is ok for them to water an entire golf course at over a million gallons a day because they are paying the bill yet the typical home owner can't water his 10 foot by 20 foot lawn? Doesn't make much sense to me. We don't need golf courses.


----------



## havasu

but do we really lose the water, or does it just recharge the aquafier? How much of the water is the same water that dinosaurs crapped in?


----------



## Speedbump

> but do we really lose the water, or does it just recharge the aquafier? How much of the water is the same water that dinosaurs crapped in?


Exactly what I have been preaching  most of my life.  They tell you to conserve water as we are running short.  Well; where is it going???  We aren't shipping it out of the atmosphere in space ships.  It's the same water the dinosaurs drank and did other things in.
The problem with wells it that they haven't figured a way to get rich from it without being too obvious.


----------



## slownsteady

> How much of the water is the same water that dinosaurs crapped in?


All of it.
As WC Fields was quoted as saying; "I never drink water, fish f*** in it."


----------



## Chris

Speedbump said:


> Exactly what I have been preaching  most of my life.  They tell you to conserve water as we are running short.  Well; where is it going???  We aren't shipping it out of the atmosphere in space ships.  It's the same water the dinosaurs drank and did other things in.
> The problem with wells it that they haven't figured a way to get rich from it without being too obvious.



I agree. We might go a little time without it replenishing an area but it is always here and always will be.


----------



## slownsteady

Chris said:


> I agree. We might go a little time without it replenishing an area but it is always here and always will be.


Call it a distribution problem. Although humans don't really control the distribution. Rains in CA, droughts in the northeast, floods in Bangladesh, etc.


----------



## Chris

slownsteady said:


> Call it a distribution problem. Although humans don't really control the distribution. Rains in CA, droughts in the northeast, floods in Bangladesh, etc.



Sad that we can not upgrade our infrastructure to hold onto more of it for when we need it.


----------



## oldognewtrick

Chris said:


> I agree. We might go a little time without it replenishing an area but it is always here and always will be.



Maybe....there is belief that Mars was once a wet planet with a water table, if so, where 'd it go?


----------



## havasu

It has been absorbed into the planet. if you did down a few thousand feet, I guarantee you you'll find water on Mars. Wanna bet $5?


----------



## slownsteady

oldognewtrick said:


> Maybe....there is belief that Mars was once a wet planet with a water table, if so, where 'd it go?


We used it all up before we left for Earth.


----------



## Chris

slownsteady said:


> We used it all up before we left for Earth.



I thought we took it with us?


----------



## slownsteady

Great short science fiction story where Earth is in a water crisis and astronauts go and capture a comet (or something big and frozen) and guide it back to earth to be harvested. I read it a long time ago, so I don't recall the title or author.


----------



## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> Great short science fiction story where Earth is in a water crisis and astronauts go and capture a comet (or something big and frozen) and guide it back to earth to be harvested. I read it a long time ago, so I don't recall the title or author.



Comets or just gray water from another planet.:trophy:


----------



## Chris

But it was really just a frozen poop ball from a space shuttle


----------



## frodo

with the fed money being with held,  they are in a pickle


----------

