# Replacing 3 way Switch



## bjmcgoo22 (Jan 17, 2017)

Hi, 

I'm attempting to replace an old light switch in the hallway. The switch controls a hall light that is controlled by 2 other switches located in different locations. There is another switch (a 2 way) housed in the junction box that controls the outside porch light.

I wired the new switch according to what I've found online and now it will not turn the light on unless the switch down the hall is turned on. 

I've researched 3 way switches and can't find a setup that resembles mine. 

This is what I'm dealing with: http://imgur.com/OTclbro

When I took the old switch out, I was hasty and didn't take note of how exactly it was installed but the two switches were connected together with a short pigtail (red in the diagram).

Any idea why these two would be connected together? 

Suggestions how the new switch should be wired?


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## nealtw (Jan 17, 2017)

3 way switches is for 2 switches
4 way if for 3 switches, so google 4 way wiring and see if that helps.
I can not access your photos.


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## JoeD (Jan 17, 2017)

If you did not change any of the other switches then the problem is in the new switch.
You have the wrong wire on the COMMON terminal. The common terminal will be black and often marked COMMON.
I hope you didn't change any of the other wiring in the switch box and only transferred the three wires from the old switch to the new switch. Take one of the wires from the not common terminal and swap it with the common terminal. Test it. If it still doesn't work then swap the third wire with the common.


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## bjmcgoo22 (Jan 17, 2017)

nealtw said:


> I can not access your photos.



Try the pic now.

http://imgur.com/OTclbro


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## nealtw (Jan 17, 2017)

bjmcgoo22 said:


> Try the pic now.
> 
> http://imgur.com/OTclbro



Try Joe's instruction. 
And yes the photo is there, but there should be three wires at each switch.


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## bjmcgoo22 (Jan 17, 2017)

Thanks, I'll give it a shot.


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## afjes_2016 (Jan 18, 2017)

Something does not look right here. The old switch was a single pole switch according to your diagram and you are replacing it with a 3 way switch but then in the diagram there is no cable with three wires in it, only 2. If this were a three way set up you would have at least one cable with 3 wires in it (black, red, white). Just because there is a red jumper being used does not indicate it is a 3 way set up. Someone may have had red wire and not black when making the jumper.

Best to take photos of the boxes so we can see the wires clearly.


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## Kabris (Jan 18, 2017)

For whatever reason, 3-way switches of different brands have various configurations, but the black screw is always your common and the others the travelers. I believe I've already seen the common as a brass screw and the others different.


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## nealtw (Jan 18, 2017)

What was the problem with the old switch and did it ever work properly?


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## afjes_2016 (Jan 18, 2017)

Kabris said:


> For whatever reason, 3-way switches of different brands have various configurations, but the black screw is always your common and the others the travelers. I believe I've already seen the common as a brass screw and the others different.



But again, the old switch was a single pole switch (you show replacing with a 3 way switch) and there is no cable with 3 conductors. I say this only according to your diagram. There must be at least one 3 conductor cable (black,red,white)in the box if we are talking about a 3 way switch. Photos would help please.

Unusual, even though various brands have different configurations there should be 3 screws plus a ground screw for a 3 way total 4 screws. The original "old" switch you show would have had only two screws plus a ground screw; 3 in total. Still there should be at least one cable with 3 conductors plus a ground.

Note: if the light is controlled by _"2 other locations" which is what the OP stated originally_ then the switch in question can only be either a 3 way or a 4 way switch.

3 way switch will have a total of four screws including the ground
4 way switch will have a total of 5 screws including the ground.

And also as NealTw asked, why are you replacing the switch to begin with? What was the problem with the old switch?

Just can't wrap my head around why you are replacing a single pole switch with a 3 way switch unless you diagram is showing a single pole switch and the diagram is including the ground screw and we are assuming it is a 3 way because of that. This is why i say pics would help us.


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## nealtw (Jan 18, 2017)

afjes_2016 said:


> But again, the old switch was a single pole switch (you show replacing with a 3 way switch) and there is no cable with 3 conductors. I say this only according to your diagram. There must be at least one 3 conductor cable (black,red,white)in the box if we are talking about a 3 way switch. Photos would help please.
> 
> Unusual, even though various brands have different configurations there should be 3 screws plus a ground screw for a 3 way total 4 screws. The original "old" switch you show would have had only two screws plus a ground screw; 3 in total. Still there should be at least one cable with 3 conductors plus a ground.
> 
> ...



I think the old switch he is showing is the other switch in the box for the outside light, not the one being replaced.

Is there a chance that someone could have used the white as a red and left out the neutral and would that work.


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## afjes_2016 (Jan 18, 2017)

NealTw: Look at my post again. I just updated it and it probably did not post before you posted.

I think we are confusing his 3 way with a single pole but his single pole diagram is including the ground screw making it a total of 3 screws. Notice there is no cable with 3 conductors which of course you need with a 3 or 4 way switch. The OP said it is controlled from 2 other locations so therefore there must be at least one 4 way and 2 three way switches.

He needs to take a photo


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## nealtw (Jan 18, 2017)

afjes_2016 said:


> NealTw: Look at my post again. I just updated it and it probably did not post before you posted.
> 
> I think we are confusing his 3 way with a single pole but his single pole diagram is including the ground screw making it a total of 3 screws. Notice there is no cable with 3 conductors which of course you need with a 3 or 4 way switch. The OP said it is controlled from 2 other locations so therefore there must be at least one 4 way and 2 three way switches.
> 
> He needs to take a photo



He likely found his mistake and has it working and will leave us guessing:down:


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## afjes_2016 (Jan 18, 2017)

nealtw said:


> He likely found his mistake and has it working and will leave us guessing:down:



:agree:  I hate when that happens!  Urgh!!


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## afjes_2016 (Jan 18, 2017)

nealtw said:


> ...Is there a chance that someone could have used the white as a red and left out the neutral and would that work.



Quite honestly at this point it is hard to tell. But, remember now, no 3 conductor cable, replacing a single pole switch with a 3 way it is possible it is a switch loop. The OP may be confused. Again, if no three conductor cable in the box no way a 3 or 4 way switch then.

I would discard the "red" wire at this point because according to the diagram it is only a jumper. You can use any color conductor as a jumper.


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## bjmcgoo22 (Jan 18, 2017)

OK, just got home from work and ready to fix this thing. Thanks for everybody's comments. I'm about to try and switch around the wires like Joe suggested but I took a few photos to share. 

And to answer the question, I'm replacing the switch because it no longer works correctly and gets stuck in the middle (its one of those "quiet" switches). After taking the old one out of the box, I notice the poles are rusted and the housing is cracked so definitely in need of replacing. 

Here are photos of what I'm working with (the newly installed switch is on the right):

Wires: http://imgur.com/HSOxvf2

Wires going to left switch (porch light/ only controlled by this switch): http://imgur.com/b0ccP1l

How I currently have new switch configured (I was 99% sure this is how the old one was set up / the black wire (jumper?) is connected to the other side of new switch on the traveler screw: http://imgur.com/qyErlWS

As you can see, no ground wires at all. I guess it's grounded through the box and conduit?


Thanks for all the help with this. 



PS, I wouldn't leave you hanging, just had to work 12 hrs...


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## JoeD (Jan 18, 2017)

The black wire going from one switch to the other is the common. Put it under the black common screw.

Before you do that you need to fix the issue of two wires under one screw. That is not allowed. Take the power wire and nut two short black pigtails to it. Take the other end of the pigtails and connect to the switches.


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## afjes_2016 (Jan 18, 2017)

bjmcgoo22 said:


> OK, just got home from work and ready to fix this thing. Thanks for everybody's comments. I'm about to try and switch around the wires like Joe suggested but I took a few photos to share.
> 
> And to answer the question, I'm replacing the switch because it no longer works correctly and gets stuck in the middle (its one of those "quiet" switches). After taking the old one out of the box, I notice the poles are rusted and the housing is cracked so definitely in need of replacing.
> 
> ...



Wait wait wait. Something is not right here. Lets back up here please for a moment. According to your original diagram there were no cables (romexes with three conductors). Also you seemed to be trying to replace a single pole switch with a 3 way switch.

These pictures are out of focus and zoomed in way too far.

This photo HERE shows a three way (from what I can tell) on the right side and a single pole on the left side with a jumper going from the right switch (3 way) to the left switch (single pole) and makes no sense at all.

Sorry bjmcgoo22 something does not make sense here. The switch on the right looks as though it is a 3 way switch (dark screw on right side indicating a common screw). Why is this 3 way switch here first of all and why is there a jumper going from where a traveler should be to the switch on the left side? I ask why is this 3 way switch here first of all because there is no cable with 3 conductors in this box. Then you state that this switch BOX is one of two other switches that controls the lights (4 way switch set up). If this was the case then this switch box would have at least once romex with 3 conductors (if it was a 3 ways switch) and if it was a 4 way switch it would have a least two romexes with 3 conductors.


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## afjes_2016 (Jan 18, 2017)

JoeD said:


> The black wire going from one switch to the other is the common. Put it under the black common screw.
> 
> Before you do that you need to fix the issue of two wires under one screw. That is not allowed. Take the power wire and nut two short black pigtails to it. Take the other end of the pigtails and connect to the switches.



Yes you can't have two wires under one screw  :agree: but still, why is there a jumper from the switch on the right (which seems to be a 3 ways switch) to the switch on the left side??  Again, there are no romexes with 3 conductors (red,blad and white). The jumper is going from what is a traveler position to the switch on the left side. Does not make sense.


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## nealtw (Jan 18, 2017)

Pull the other two switches and leave the wires connected and take pictures. One should have 3 wires( screws) and one should have 4 wires( screws)


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## Snoonyb (Jan 18, 2017)

Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill, joe is close, but the answer is right there in this image; http://imgur.com/HSOxvf2


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## nealtw (Jan 18, 2017)

This should be what he has. Neutral is from some other source.


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## bud16415 (Jan 18, 2017)

In the first photo power comes in on the center cable and goes to left switch single acting (outside light) and is jumper to the 3 way switch on the right out of that switch are a white and black traveler that go to the other three way down the hall the other wire off that one goes to a light in hall and on to a common down there.

That&#8217;s my take on how it is wired. Left cable outside light right cable travelers and center cable power.


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## afjes_2016 (Jan 18, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill, joe is close, but the answer is right there in this image; http://imgur.com/HSOxvf2



Yes the switch on the right seems to be a switch loop and the switch on the left a regular switch configuration. What are you trying to say Snoonyb? 

Still no reason for a 3 ways switch which the original diagram indicates. No cable/romex with 3 conductors.


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## afjes_2016 (Jan 18, 2017)

Ok it seems i posted after others posted. 

Hummm! Still, his picture shows a 3 ways switch ( according to the pic). There must be at least one 3 conductor romex in the box then and I don't see one.

Please, tell me what I am not seeing here then. I am open to suggestions.


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## nealtw (Jan 18, 2017)

In the first sketch post 1 if he put the pig tail (power) to the top screw on the right and puts white and black to the other screws it will work.


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## afjes_2016 (Jan 18, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> ...Thats my take on how it is wired. Left cable outside light right cable travelers and center cable power.



So what you are saying is Bud that maybe someone used 2 2 wire romexes instead of one 3 wire romexes. That is a possibility but unlikely-But still possible.


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## nealtw (Jan 18, 2017)

afjes_2016 said:


> Ok it seems i posted after others posted.
> 
> Hummm! Still, his picture shows a 3 ways switch ( according to the pic). There must be at least one 3 conductor romex in the box then and I don't see one.
> 
> Please, tell me what I am not seeing here then. I am open to suggestions.



Long before this was a three way it was a switch leg, with power going to the light. The neutral at the light is still in uses. 
When it is set up like that with power at this switch the whole thing can be wired with 2 wire.

I did not say it was right. But if the neutral is at the light there is no need to run a neutral to the switches


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## afjes_2016 (Jan 18, 2017)

nealtw said:


> In the first sketch post 1 if he put the pig tail (power) to the top screw on the right and puts white and black to the other screws it will work.



But again according to the first sketch he is replacing a single pole switch with a 3 way which makes no sense (in reality you can use a 3 ways switch in a bind if you don't have a single pole handy).

We still have not heard from the OP anything about the other two switch locations.


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## nealtw (Jan 18, 2017)

afjes_2016 said:


> But again according to the first sketch he is replacing a single pole switch with a 3 way which makes no sense (in reality you can use a 3 ways switch in a bind if you don't have a single pole handy).
> 
> We still have not heard from the OP anything about the other two switch locations.



No, in the sketch he has labeled the outside light switch as old and the one you are looking for is not depicted.


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## afjes_2016 (Jan 18, 2017)

nealtw said:


> ...I did not say it was right. But if the neutral is at the light there is no need to run a neutral to the switches



Yes that is correct however the common must have either the hot or the load to the light and the other two travelers. Something is just not right here; I am sorry.  Until we get better pictures (from all switch box locations) I can't figure this out. Also the OP mentioned 2 other locations that this light is controlled by. Just does not make any sense to me.


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## JoeD (Jan 18, 2017)

> Yes you can't have two wires under one screw but still, why is there a jumper from the switch on the right (which seems to be a 3 ways switch) to the switch on the left side?? Again, there are no romexes with 3 conductors (red,blad and white). The jumper is going from what is a traveler position to the switch on the left side. Does not make sense.



You do not need a red wire to make a three way. Power comes from the one cable and the other two wire cable is the travellers. I don't know where the neutral is being picked up at the light but if it worked before it will work again.


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## nealtw (Jan 18, 2017)

afjes_2016 said:


> Yes that is correct however the common must have either the hot or the load to the light and the other two travelers. Something is just not right here; I am sorry.  Until we get better pictures (from all switch box locations) I can't figure this out. Also the OP mentioned 2 other locations that this light is controlled by. Just does not make any sense to me.



Did you see post 22


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## bjmcgoo22 (Jan 18, 2017)

Here are photos from the other 2 locations.

4 way: http://imgur.com/pjmI2zR

3 way: http://imgur.com/mVKF2Iq


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## Snoonyb (Jan 18, 2017)

afjes_2016 said:


> So what you are saying is Bud that maybe someone used 2 2 wire romexes instead of one 3 wire romexes. That is a possibility but unlikely-But still possible.



What bud said is correct, as is the diagram neal posted, because it has never been a prerequisite the a 12 or 14/3 romex are necessary for a three way switch to operate, just a convenience.

All the op had to do was swap the locations of the travelers, and it would have fixed the problem.


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## bjmcgoo22 (Jan 18, 2017)

JoeD said:


> The black wire going from one switch to the other is the common. Put it under the black common screw.
> 
> Before you do that you need to fix the issue of two wires under one screw. That is not allowed. Take the power wire and nut two short black pigtails to it. Take the other end of the pigtails and connect to the switches.





JoeD's suggestion worked. The original 3 way was configured differently so the orientation of the screws were set up on different sides. That's what was throwing me off. I moved the jumper to the common and it works just fine. I'll just need to buy a couple pigtails to do the job properly. 

Thanks again for all the help.


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## nealtw (Jan 18, 2017)

bjmcgoo22 said:


> JoeD's suggestion worked. The original 3 way was configured differently so the orientation of the screws were set up on different sides. That's what was throwing me off. I moved the jumper to the common and it works just fine. I'll just need to buy a couple pigtails to do the job properly.
> 
> Thanks again for all the help.



Congrats; Just buy 1 ft of 14/2 and take the wire out of it.
BTW. you do not have protection from a ground so it would be a good idea to figure out which outlets should be protected and add GFCIs in line.
If you are interested in that start another thread so we can all argue there too.:rofl:


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## nealtw (Jan 18, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> What bud said is correct, as is the diagram neal posted, because it has never been a prerequisite the a 12 or 14/3 romex are necessary for a three way switch to operate, just a convenience.
> 
> All the op had to do was swap the locations of the travelers, and it would have fixed the problem.



As this is not a common set up that some have not seen before, it is a good idea to have a talk about it so the next time we see it we will all be able to help.:thbup:


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## bjmcgoo22 (Jan 18, 2017)

nealtw said:


> BTW. you do not have protection from a ground so it would be a good idea to figure out which outlets should be protected and add GFCIs in line.
> If you are interested in that start another thread so we can all argue there too.:rofl:



I bought the house 3 years ago and after seeing this (the two wires under one screw), it makes me want to pull all my switches and outlets to make sure everything is kosher. 

I'll start a new thread on adding GFCIs. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## bud16415 (Jan 18, 2017)

afjes_2016 said:


> So what you are saying is Bud that maybe someone used 2 2 wire romexes instead of one 3 wire romexes. That is a possibility but unlikely-But still possible.



It is fairly common in the DIY world and wire is not cheap. I keep a supply of  12-2 and 14-2 around but would never use a roll of 12-3 or 14-3 up in a lifetime. So I would wire it just as shown here minus the double ups under the screws and a few other things like not having a ground. I have always marked the travelers though with red tape. 

One thing that drives me nuts I think I saw in some of the pics here is when I see the wire wrapped the wrong way around the screw. 

One thing I have done and the pros can tell me if it is to code or not with a jumper like this. If I dont want to use the pigtails and wire nut I just leave the feed wire long and strip it in the middle and make a loop for the screw. Two wires come off one screw but only one thickness of wire. Then I strip the end and make a hook for the next connection. 
I first started doing it in barns as a kid where we had a string of porcelain bulb fixtures and instead of cutting the wire a bunch of times and making connections we just stripped the wire without cutting. If you did get some corrosion the rest of the string wasnt affected.


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## nealtw (Jan 18, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> It is fairly common in the DIY world and wire is not cheap. I keep a supply of  12-2 and 14-2 around but would never use a roll of 12-3 or 14-3 up in a lifetime. So I would wire it just as shown here minus the double ups under the screws and a few other things like not having a ground. I have always marked the travelers though with red tape.
> 
> One thing that drives me nuts I think I saw in some of the pics here is when I see the wire wrapped the wrong way around the screw.
> 
> ...



This situation did not have 2 cables stacked. It was achieved with one 14/2

I think your side strip is fine, but I am no expert either.


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## Kabris (Jan 19, 2017)

Bud it is to code and I've seen it done many times in the past. Although it saves space I personally prefer the pigtails just because it is a time saver in case a switch needs to be swapped out. Just my personal preference.


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## afjes_2016 (Jan 19, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> ...One thing I have done and the pros can tell me if it is to code or not with a jumper like this. If I don&#8217;t want to use the pigtails and wire nut I just leave the feed wire long and strip it in the middle and make a loop for the screw. Two wires come off one screw but only one thickness of wire. Then I strip the end and make a hook for the next connection....



:agree:I know what you are saying as I do the same thing especially if I have a 4 gang box with 4 switches. I take the feed wire and make sure I leave it extra long along with the ground wire. I bound up all my grounds in the box with the long ground and wire nut them with the green wire nut with the hole at the end. There I will put thru the long ground from the feeder. Then I do a wrap around each screw with that one long ground wire as in a daisy chain. This way all the grounds can stay neatly tucked in the back of the box and less conductors doing to the switches. Then the long feed (hot) wire I will strip the insulation back and bit starting nearer the sheathing and slide the insulation towards the end of the conductor creating a bare spot in the conductor insulation. Then move my way down a few inches and do the same thing and then for the last switch just wrap the end of the conductor around the screw. Again, far less conductors going to the switches. Then I just connect all the load wires to the lights to the switches. I think it makes it much neater and easier to handle especially if you are working with 12 gauge. I have yet to have an inspector say something about it and I don't think it is a code violation. The reason why I say this is because doing it this way you are not over loading the box with all the extra jumpers, both ground and hot.

The other thing I have started to do lately to save me time is if I am finding myself having the wire nut a bunch of 12 gauge conductors to one wire nut I use a connector instead. They are a bit more expensive but they make it faster and neater than having the twist a bunch of wires together neatly and tuck them under a wire nut. I have a bit of arthritis in my hands and it is hard for me sometimes to handle all those conductors etc. So using the connectors helps me get it done. And another time I use these connectors is if I am working on a switch or receptacle etc where someone before me cut the conductors very short in the box. It is easier to place a connector on the short conductor and then put a jump in the same connector which will then extend the conductor for me making it easier to install the new switch or receptacle. Nothing like trying to put a GFCI receptacle in a box that has really short conductors. This way I just use the connectors with jumpers and tuck the connectors tight into the back of the box neatly, connect the jumpers to the GFCI and tuck it in the box.


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## afjes_2016 (Jan 19, 2017)

First off I would like to apologize if I offended anyone in my posts in this thread. That was not my intention. Some of my posts as I was created others were added and they fell out of sequence etc. Anyway, again I did not mean to "ruffle" anyone's feathers. We are here to help the OPs. I was just very confused by the OPs original diagram and that was throwing me for a loop. 

The biggest thing that threw me from the start was that I thought (according to the diagram) that the switch on the left marked old switch was the switch he was replacing which is a single pole switch with the new switch on the right which is a 3 way switch. I now see (almost like it just kicked me in the head as I am drinking my morning coffee) that the switch on the left is the other switch and the switch on the right is the replaced 3 way. DUH   on my part people.

And what confused me even more was the romex on the right in one of the pictures look simply as a switch loop. Again, remember i thought he was replacing a single pole switch with a 3 way.

So in this case he is picking up the neutral down the line somewhere. I just hope if it was done this way it was on the same circuit. Otherwise you are sharing a neutral. That is the other reason why I was saying you needed a 3 wire going to the 4 way. If this was the hot then I would have wired it so the neutral from the hot in this box went down the line to the light, hence the need for 3 conductors.

Anyway, I hope all of you understand why I was getting frustrated and very confused here. Again, sorry if I offended anyone!!


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## bud16415 (Jan 19, 2017)

afjes_2016 said:


> So in this case he is picking up the neutral down the line somewhere. I just hope if it was done this way it was on the same circuit. Otherwise you are sharing a neutral.Again, sorry if I offended anyone!!



Im pretty sure his neutral is a continuation of the neutral found in the Jbox he first showed. Any time I use 2 cables for a 3 or 4  way I keep them side by side the whole way as if they were one. 

I dont think anyone around here felt offended in the least. This is a great bunch and everyones goal is to help the OP solve their problem. As it is a DIY forum and especially in the case of electrical you cant be too careful.  I often want the OP to just not solve their problem but to understand what they just did that solved the problem. More of the big picture. We should all try and take the few minutes extra to explain the why along with the what to do. 

I learn something new every day here and know I know Im to code with my daisy chaining along a wire. On a similar note when Im doing outlets especially in garages and shop areas and the like I find it is just as easy to put in double outlets as it is singles, so I normally do that. For whatever reason, I dont care to power the second outlet off the first using the other screw passing the current thru the brake out jumper strip. So I sit down at the work bench and make up a bunch of doubles prewired that will pop right in a double box with a single pig tail. In the future any outlet fails it wont affect anything down stream. I even think if I was building a new home I would put in all double outlets like this in the house. But it would be really nice if they sold a quad outlet made in one block already connected up internally for roughly twice the price as a single.


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## JoeD (Jan 19, 2017)

> I just leave the feed wire long and strip it in the middle and make a loop for the screw


That is NOT against code.


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2017)

afjes_2016 said:


> First off I would like to apologize if I offended anyone in my posts in this thread.



Thank you, I don't think any one was offended


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