# Is this a code violation?



## hmnguyen87 (Sep 15, 2015)

Hello guys, 

I am in the process of re-running wires to an attic. I'm just wondering if the following is a code violation? I know that junction boxes is required to be accessible, and they are. this is the backwall of one of the rooms. This area is covered up (with a small opening), so no one has access to it unless you open that small cover.

http://imgur.com/5KMkkit

Thanks


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## JoeD (Sep 15, 2015)

Looks like a floor is present so protection of the cables is required. Run a board beside the cables so that anyone walking up there will step on the board instead of the cables.


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## hmnguyen87 (Sep 15, 2015)

JoeD said:


> Looks like a floor is present so protection of the cables is required. Run a board beside the cables so that anyone walking up there will step on the board instead of the cables.




Thank you for the suggestion, instead of doing that, Can i attach the wires against the ceiling joist?


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## JoeD (Sep 15, 2015)

Sure. You could run up the wall, ceiling and back down the other wall.


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## hmnguyen87 (Sep 15, 2015)

JoeD said:


> Sure. You could run up the wall, ceiling and back down the other wall.



Thank you Joe,

One more quick question, do you think it is ok to have a circuit for each bedroom? I am planning to run a 15A circuit to each bedroom and a 20A circuit to the bathroom. I am planning to use the 20A circuit for the GFCI outlet as well as the bathroom lights/fan. Is this ok to do or against code?

Thanks


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## Kabris (Sep 15, 2015)

If you plan on having roof work done in the near future, keep the wires far enough away so a nail can't hit them.  Running them across the joists is fine, but I wouldn't suggest going through them.


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## hmnguyen87 (Sep 15, 2015)

Kabris said:


> If you plan on having roof work done in the near future, keep the wires far enough away so a nail can't hit them.  Running them across the joists is fine, but I wouldn't suggest going through them.



thank you that is a good point


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## JoeD (Sep 15, 2015)

You can run as many circuits as you like for the bedrooms. 15 amps is fine.

20 amps for the bathroom is fine. Use it for anything in the bathroom as long as the circuit does not leave the bathroom.


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## CallMeVilla (Sep 15, 2015)

You can run 20A circuits to receptacles if you anticipate future demand might require higher capacity.  Routinely, receptacles would be 15A.  Just make sure you provide proper wiring size to carry the amperage.  Thus, the 20A bathroom GFCI is commonly wired with 12/2 ROMEX.


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## hornetd (Sep 16, 2015)

hmnguyen87 said:


> Thank you Joe,
> 
> One more quick question, do you think it is ok to have a circuit for each bedroom? I am planning to run a 15A circuit to each bedroom and a 20A circuit to the bathroom. I am planning to use the 20A circuit for the GFCI outlet as well as the bathroom lights/fan. Is this ok to do or against code?
> 
> Thanks



Under the US National Electric Code (NEC) if you use the Twenty Ampere circuit that serves the basin receptacle to also serve other loads then it can only serve loads that are in the same bathroom.  It may not serve any loads that appear in other rooms.  So it would appear that what you are planning is fine.  The alternative approach is to have that circuit serve the basin receptacles in more than one bathroom but then it cannot serve any other loads than the basin receptacles in bathrooms.


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## hornetd (Sep 16, 2015)

Kabris said:


> If you plan on having roof work done in the near future, keep the wires far enough away so a nail can't hit them.  Running them across the joists is fine, but I wouldn't suggest going through them.



In the OPs situation, as shown in the linked photograph,  the cable can be fished under the floor boards as an alternative to guard strips or rerouting through the overhead.  

Under the US National Electric Code cables running across the face of rafters in an accessible attic have to be fastened to running boards made of nominal One inch lumber.  Cables that run exposed across the top of the joists in that situation must be protected by guard strips.  The running boards mitigate the tendency people have to hang things from the cable.  Guard strips protect the cable from feet and storage.  Cables run parallel to the rafters or joists must be fastened so that no portion of the cable is within 1&1/4 inches of the either face of the rafter or joist.  The NEC does provide provision for running the cables through bored holes in structural lumber but the holes must be within the center third of the width of the rafter or joist and must not be any closer to another hole or knot than three times the diameter of the hole in order to avoid compromising the physical strength of the lumber.  The holes, like the cable itself must not be any closer to the exposed or sheathed faces of the lumber than One and one quarter inches.  As another respondent has already opined staying as far away from the roof sheathing as those rules permit is a very good idea.  If multiple cables need to be run parallel to the same stud or other similar dimension lumber the use of patent cable standoffs fastened to the side of the lumber is a good idea.  If you run more than three cables through the same hole more than twice in a row you will have to calculate whether the cables temperature rating is adequate for the load even after you DE-rate that rating to compensate for the cables being bundled together for more than twenty four inches.  If any of the structural components are made of engineered lumber; such as joists made of plywood webbed, two by flanged wooden I beams; or engineered wood trusses then all cutting or boring must only be done as specified in the manufacturers directions and / or markings.  

Since that space will almost inevitably be used for storage at some point, it would be better practice to install the junction boxes on the side of the studs rather than on the face of them.  This would make it less likely that storage would strike the box during handling.  The NEC does not require that however.  If you use four square boxes then it will be easier to apply finish rings to extend the face of the box out to the finished surface if you ever line that space with any interior finish.  The NEC requires that a box's open face come within One Eight of an inch of noncombustible finish, such as sheet rock, and it requires that the face of the box come flush or protrude from any combustible finish such as ceder closet lining.

-- 
Tom Horne


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## hmnguyen87 (Sep 17, 2015)

hornetd said:


> Under the US National Electric Code (NEC) if you use the Twenty Ampere circuit that serves the basin receptacle to also serve other loads then it can only serve loads that are in the same bathroom.  It may not serve any loads that appear in other rooms.  So it would appear that what you are planning is fine.  The alternative approach is to have that circuit serve the basin receptacles in more than one bathroom but then it cannot serve any other loads than the basin receptacles in bathrooms.



Hi that's not a bad Idea, do you one I can use 1 20A circuit for 2nd and 3rd floor bathroom? essentially, the 20A circuits will have 2 GFCI outlets, and nothing else on it.

THanks


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## hmnguyen87 (Sep 17, 2015)

hornetd said:


> In the OPs situation, as shown in the linked photograph,  the cable can be fished under the floor boards as an alternative to guard strips or rerouting through the overhead.
> 
> Under the US National Electric Code cables running across the face of rafters in an accessible attic have to be fastened to running boards made of nominal One inch lumber.  Cables that run exposed across the top of the joists in that situation must be protected by guard strips.  The running boards mitigate the tendency people have to hang things from the cable.  Guard strips protect the cable from feet and storage.  Cables run parallel to the rafters or joists must be fastened so that no portion of the cable is within 1&1/4 inches of the either face of the rafter or joist.  The NEC does provide provision for running the cables through bored holes in structural lumber but the holes must be within the center third of the width of the rafter or joist and must not be any closer to another hole or knot than three times the diameter of the hole in order to avoid compromising the physical strength of the lumber.  The holes, like the cable itself must not be any closer to the exposed or sheathed faces of the lumber than One and one quarter inches.  As another respondent has already opined staying as far away from the roof sheathing as those rules permit is a very good idea.  If multiple cables need to be run parallel to the same stud or other similar dimension lumber the use of patent cable standoffs fastened to the side of the lumber is a good idea.  If you run more than three cables through the same hole more than twice in a row you will have to calculate whether the cables temperature rating is adequate for the load even after you DE-rate that rating to compensate for the cables being bundled together for more than twenty four inches.  If any of the structural components are made of engineered lumber; such as joists made of plywood webbed, two by flanged wooden I beams; or engineered wood trusses then all cutting or boring must only be done as specified in the manufacturers directions and / or markings.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the detailed reply Tom. appreciate the help


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## hornetd (Sep 18, 2015)

hmnguyen87 said:


> Thanks for the detailed reply Tom. appreciate the help



Your entirely welcome.  I'm glad that you found the information helpful.


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## hornetd (Sep 18, 2015)

hmnguyen87 said:


> Hi that's not a bad Idea, do you one I can use 1 20A circuit for 2nd and 3rd floor bathroom? essentially, the 20A circuits will have 2 GFCI outlets, and nothing else on it.
> 
> THanks



I think you are asking if the same twenty ampere circuit can serve the GFCI that is located by the basin (sink) in two different bathrooms.  If that is the question then the answer is yes.  The US National Electric Code (NEC) allows a single Twenty Ampere branch circuit to supply as many bathroom basin receptacles as there are in the home as long as the only load supplied is bathroom basin receptacles.  If any other load is supplied from that branch circuit then all the loads served by that one branch circuit must be located in the same bathroom.  

The villain of the piece is the monster hair dryers that consume 1800 watts.  That is the entire ampacity of a Fifteen Ampere branch circuit that is operating at 120 volts.  If so much as a shaver charger were on that circuit while the hair dryer is in use the circuit will trip after a time once it's bimetallic overload element gets hot enough to trip the mechanism.  In families with multiple teenagers I have been called out because the second or third user always trips the breaker when they are using the hair dryer one after another to prepare for school.  

Although the NEC would permit it I would advise against using a feed through arrangement via the GFCI in one bathroom to protect the receptacle outlets which are located in other bathrooms.  Doing that will save a small amount of money but if the one GFCI trips the person who was using the outlet in a different bathroom will not know what is wrong or how to restore service.  Going to the panel will tell them nothing about a GFCI receptacle that has tripped in a room different than the one in which the basin outlet is now dead.


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## hmnguyen87 (Sep 19, 2015)

hornetd said:


> I think you are asking if the same twenty ampere circuit can serve the GFCI that is located by the basin (sink) in two different bathrooms.  If that is the question then the answer is yes.  The US National Electric Code (NEC) allows a single Twenty Ampere branch circuit to supply as many bathroom basin receptacles as there are in the home as long as the only load supplied is bathroom basin receptacles.  If any other load is supplied from that branch circuit then all the loads served by that one branch circuit must be located in the same bathroom.
> 
> The villain of the piece is the monster hair dryers that consume 1800 watts.  That is the entire ampacity of a Fifteen Ampere branch circuit that is operating at 120 volts.  If so much as a shaver charger were on that circuit while the hair dryer is in use the circuit will trip after a time once it's bimetallic overload element gets hot enough to trip the mechanism.  In families with multiple teenagers I have been called out because the second or third user always trips the breaker when they are using the hair dryer one after another to prepare for school.
> 
> Although the NEC would permit it I would advise against using a feed through arrangement via the GFCI in one bathroom to protect the receptacle outlets which are located in other bathrooms.  Doing that will save a small amount of money but if the one GFCI trips the person who was using the outlet in a different bathroom will not know what is wrong or how to restore service.  Going to the panel will tell them nothing about a GFCI receptacle that has tripped in a room different than the one in which the basin outlet is now dead.




Thank you!!


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