# Removing galvanized and going copper



## maxdad118 (Jan 25, 2017)

So I've sweated copper a few times and not paying top dollar to have it done. To minimize down time I'm considering doing a lot under the house before tying into the riser out front and water heater. Also I'm using 3/4" with 3/4x 3/4 x3/4 tees for takeoffs to 2 separate bathrooms and a line for a future Tankless? Does this seem like a good system I planned? Some copper is under the house already but my water pressure is about 45lbs at the front spicot downstream of an old gate valve on galvenized riser...The whole horizontal run under the house from the riser is galvenized&#128542;. Space is limited so I'm going to tackle this in phases. A little one day and so on. I plan on ball valves at each 3/4 takeoff so I can get the water back on once 1 bathroom is back up. Eventually I will do the hot as well and heard 1/2" from the water heater is all that's necessary? Does that seem right? Hopefully I'm not buying off more than I can chew...The line from the meter to the riser appears to be PVC. Any suggestions or tips are greatly appreciated.!!


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## bud16415 (Jan 25, 2017)

maxdad118 said:


> Any suggestions or tips are greatly appreciated.!!



Welcome to the forum.

I redid my house a couple years ago and did it top to bottom in PEX. IMO it is the only way to go for me at least.


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## kok328 (Jan 25, 2017)

Use 3/4 off the water heater and the reduce to 1/2 about 4ft from its final destination. 
FYI- pex is easy to run but if it freezes you can't put an electric pipe thawer on it cause it does not conduct electricity.


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## maxdad118 (Jan 25, 2017)

I don't want any chance of rodents chewing through that's why I'm going copper. Thanks


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## bud16415 (Jan 25, 2017)

kok328 said:


> Use 3/4 off the water heater and the reduce to 1/2 about 4ft from its final destination.
> FYI- pex is easy to run but if it freezes you can't put an electric pipe thawer on it cause it does not conduct electricity.



If copper freezes you can thaw it out and find where it split quicker I agree.


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## bud16415 (Jan 25, 2017)

maxdad118 said:


> I don't want any chance of rodents chewing through that's why I'm going copper. Thanks



Good point. I didnt realize that mice and rats were as big of a problem with PEX until now when I started searching. Our house is old and from time to time we get a mouse so I will keep an eye on it. I put out dope in the fall about the time mice might be looking for a warmer place in my shop or garage or basement. I havent heard of PEX damage here from rodents but in some areas of the country I guess it is bad. 

If it is a problem I would also be worrying about my wires and chance of fire. :thbup:


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## Snoonyb (Jan 25, 2017)

The usual method is to "T" 3/4x1/2x3/4 to each fixture until the end and then 3/4x1/2, and the reason is to allow for a consistent supply when all fixtures are operating simultaneously.

3/4 in and out of the water heater and since you are planning for an eventual tankless, run a 1/2" return from the farthest riser so that with a timer and pump you can have instant hot water.

If in fact your supply to the house is PVC, how is your elec. service grounded?

Copper is good for an average of 20yrs. and you can manifold from copper to pex.


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## bud16415 (Jan 25, 2017)

This thread has me researching rodent proofing PEX now. It seems there are several spray products that people use on wiring to car engines to PEX that are reported to work and are safe to humans. If I get any good leads on it I will start a thread as to not hijack this one.


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## markfothebeast (Feb 6, 2017)

My personal suggestion here. 

-3/4" copper or larger to the water heater and cold water.

-3/4" or larger OUT of the water heater.

-Build a manifold that equally distributes water pressure to each fixture, even if you decide to use pex. Each sink or appliance should be split to 1/2" lines.

-Expansion tank BEFORE the water heater with s/o valve before the expansion tank. I don't care what anyone says, every water heater should have an expansion tank.


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## frodo (Feb 7, 2017)

your plan sounds like a good one.

if I were you, I would run 1'' pvc from the meter outside to the house.

then install a ball valve and  use the ball valve to transistion to copper

run a straight line of 3/4 as a trunk line to the fartherest bathroom or to the water heater

3/4 to bathrooms
3/4 x 1/2 tees to individual fixtures along the way..end the run with a 3/4 x 1/2 x 1/2 tee

hot water from heater  3/4 to the bathrooms...then 3/4 x 1/2 x 1/2 tee 

on repipes....I drill a hole in the floor outside the wall  behind the toilet  and in the cabinets
instead of tearing into the wall. 
then use a ''bell' eschushion  and a ''straight '' stop  instead of angled  with the valve tight on the eschushion on the floor,,and chromed risers to the fixture..looks good

I have done hundreds of these,,,if you have any questions feel free to look me up


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## Snoonyb (Feb 7, 2017)

frodo said:


> your plan sounds like a good one.
> 
> if I were you, I would run 1'' pvc from the meter outside to the house.
> 
> ...



In the 50's when this house was built the potable water system was galv., from the meter, and the elec. service used it as a grnd. without a driven grnd. rod. The main has since been changed to what appears to be sched. 40 PVC, subsequently removing the length of galv. from the elec. grnd.

I had asked how his elec. service was grounded, because when I change a main service from metal to PVC I permit it, use sched. 80 PVC and drive two ground rods 7' apart.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 7, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> Good point. I didnt realize that mice and rats were as big of a problem with PEX until now when I started searching. Our house is old and from time to time we get a mouse so I will keep an eye on it. I put out dope in the fall about the time mice might be looking for a warmer place in my shop or garage or basement. I havent heard of PEX damage here from rodents but in some areas of the country I guess it is bad.
> 
> If it is a problem I would also be worrying about my wires and chance of fire. :thbup:



The primary reason PEX becomes subjected to rodent damage originates from the manner of eradication, IE. poison or trapping. Poison causes them to become extraordinarily thirsty and so the hot water side of the PEX is vulnerable.


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## slownsteady (Feb 7, 2017)

Going back to the plan in post #1, using valves to temporarily end your run, just use a short copper pipe and sweat a cap on the end. It's easy to cut off the cap later and continue the run. the waste is negligible.


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## frodo (Feb 7, 2017)

slownsteady said:


> Going back to the plan in post #1, using valves to temporarily end your run, just use a short copper pipe and sweat a cap on the end. It's easy to cut off the cap later and continue the run. the waste is negligible.





beat the pipe closed with a hammer and solder the end  you beat

damn caps cost money  :rofl:


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## maxdad118 (Feb 8, 2017)

Good tips guys! Thanks. It's been raining cats and dogs these days so I'm putting it on hold for a bit, maybe a month or so away. Plus I have a new proble-roof leak&#55357;&#56873;


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## Snoonyb (Feb 8, 2017)

So, you're ready for all the "water masters" to vote themselves a raise, because they may have to work more than their usual 15min. a day to figure out what to do with all the rain.

Look in the attic and there should be wet sheating boards where the water is coming in.

Water will travel and then drip on to the insulation and ceiling, giving you a false location.


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## maxdad118 (Aug 18, 2017)

frodo said:


> your plan sounds like a good one.
> 
> if I were you, I would run 1'' pvc from the meter outside to the house.
> 
> ...



Do you have a picture of this? So instead of coming out of the wall it's coming thru the floor, vertically by the toilet and in the cabinets beneath the sinks? That would make it easier!?&#128515;&#128077;


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## Snoonyb (Aug 20, 2017)

maxdad118 said:


> Do you have a picture of this? So instead of coming out of the wall it's coming thru the floor, vertically by the toilet and in the cabinets beneath the sinks? That would make it easier!?&#128515;&#128077;



There are seldom published photos of this practice, and there are two schools of thought in following it.

Yes it is easier too just drill 3 holes from underneath and stick 3 pieces of pipe up and use 3 compression valves.

However, in the case of the WC, is the floor a soft surface or a hard surface?

And in the case of the lav cabinet, are you intending to change it in the near future, and if so, expand the holes for the pipe to make the removal of the lav cabinet easier.

Sometimes things are not always as easy as they appear.


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## maxdad118 (Aug 20, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> There are seldom published photos of this practice, and there are two schools of thought in following it.
> 
> Yes it is easier too just drill 3 holes from underneath and stick 3 pieces of pipe up and use 3 compression valves.
> 
> ...



What is the WC acronym referring to? And the previous owner installed slate for a bathroom flooring!! Horrible! Eventually this will get gutted and remodeled.


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## Snoonyb (Aug 20, 2017)

WC is short for "water closet", somewhere water is temporarily housed.


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## Snoonyb (Aug 20, 2017)

maxdad118 said:


> What is the WC acronym referring to? And the previous owner installed slate for a bathroom flooring!! Horrible! Eventually this will get gutted and remodeled.



I did a few of the punch through the floor system, but stopped because I became the A hole when people wanted to change their lavs, and my referrals suffered.

I now cut the drywall and cut the galv. below the elbow and remove the pipe from the bottom, feed the new through the same hole, solder the 90, compression angle stop and patch the drywall.


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## maxdad118 (Aug 21, 2017)

I imagine when we do the remodel and replace the damaged sub floor, I can then, reroute the copper back into the wall.


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## Snoonyb (Aug 21, 2017)

You can, depending upon how much you enjoyed your 1st trip under the house.

However you'll need to map your FJ (floor joist) near the WC so you can use a masonry bit and drill the slate from the top.


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## maxdad118 (Aug 24, 2017)

Spent about an hour under the house crawling and inspecting my situation....wow! Somebody ran about 20 ft of copper from a galvanized transition. It gets better. Instead of teeing off and running some copper over to the main bathroom it continues all the way over to the laundry room, which is slab and goes about 2 ft, tees off back under house and galvanized to the kitchen sink, 20 ft back to the main bathroom all galvanized! Ugh! Space is very limited where it enters house so that was my main concern. I have a plan and that's all that matters, I'm just glad I can access everything. The hot side appears to be all copper and the roll kind, some spots appear to be smaller than 1/2 near the fixtures so that will be another project. I did notice some pinholes that weren't spraying yet but moist around the rust and corrosion. Can't wait to remove all this crap and get some pictures for you all but I'm sure you've seen it all haha.


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## frodo (Aug 25, 2017)

water closet


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## maxdad118 (Aug 26, 2017)

Got a few drops drilled and set, I will leave about 4-6" exposed if I ever have to replace valve and need some new pipe.


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## Snoonyb (Aug 26, 2017)

That's the Idea.

Whether you could find them or not, there are strait thru compression stops, instead of the angles, which require shorter braided connectors.


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## maxdad118 (Aug 26, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> That's the Idea.
> 
> Whether you could find them or not, there are strait thru compression stops, instead of the angles, which require shorter braided connectors.



Didn't know that??&#128515;So the supply line connects at the top?


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## Snoonyb (Aug 26, 2017)

That's correct.

They can be a bit pricey, so you'll need to shop around;https://www.ferguson.com/category/valves/supply-stop-valves/straight-supply-stop-valves/_/N-zbq54t


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## maxdad118 (Aug 26, 2017)

Nice, thank you...about $6 more. I'm fine with what I got but will definitely keep that in mind if I ever decide to change it. I'm really excited to get this done and see a change, can't wait.


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## Snoonyb (Aug 27, 2017)

Like I say, shop around.

Shark-bites are always more expensive. Check ACE, LOWE"S and home desperado.

I find walking in gives you a truer representation than some out of the area generalized web site.


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## maxdad118 (Aug 29, 2017)

Got a little done this evening..


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## Snoonyb (Aug 29, 2017)

You need to break the contact between the hanger and the copper to prevent electrolysis.


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## maxdad118 (Aug 29, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> You need to break the contact between the hanger and the copper to prevent electrolysis.



They are copper hangers..at least that's what the label said. I'll keep an eye on them regardless. Thanks.


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## Snoonyb (Aug 30, 2017)

They do not appear as such in the photos.


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## frodo (Aug 30, 2017)

You will also need to use a  bell escutcheons instead of the flat escutcheons shown in your picture
that way, your straight stop can be directly on the escutcheons and no copper will show,  then use chromed supplies to hook up the faucets
and use a tubing bender


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## frodo (Aug 30, 2017)

nice solder job!!!  it looks clean,  I am impressed you wiped your joints:thbup:

I do notice one thing,  use a copper 2 hole strap on your pipe
they will stop your pipe from banging,  the hangers you are using are not strapping the pipe down
I stopped using those years ago because of the banging


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## frodo (Aug 30, 2017)

As far as removing the cabinet at a later date,  LOl, it is NOT a problem.  remove the stop and pick the cabinet up

simple and easy


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## maxdad118 (Aug 30, 2017)

Those hangers are actually temporary due to the fact the old galvanized is sitting a bit lower and not allowing me to push the pipe up against the joists. I plan on a final securing when I get that out of the way. They were holding it in place while soldering. Thanks Frodo! I have soldering experience since I was 14 but mainly on D.C. Electronics and worked at a manufacturing place where I did a lot of wire integration and terminating. Very limited copper sweating so I hope all is well with my joints. Flux and map gas and solder flowed great. I use to have more steady hands but all the coffee I drink makes me a little shaky haha. Are you talking about the horseshoe looking anchors but in copper?


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## maxdad118 (Aug 30, 2017)

Yeah, not concerned about removal of the cabinets! Haha. Thanks for that!&#55357;&#56397;


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## maxdad118 (Aug 30, 2017)

Like these?


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## frodo (Aug 30, 2017)

yep.  those are them


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## maxdad118 (Sep 3, 2017)

$6 for 10 supports??!! .59 eachx10.... I found these plastic ones in electrical conduit section for .99 a bag so I got 10 for $2!! Score!!&#55357;&#56397;


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## frodo (Sep 4, 2017)

conduit and copper piping is  different size outside diameter 

conduit is 11/16  or  13/16 where as copper is 5/8  

pipes will be loose


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## Snoonyb (Sep 4, 2017)

frodo said:


> As far as removing the cabinet at a later date,  LOl, it is NOT a problem.  remove the stop and pick the cabinet up
> 
> simple and easy



Only if you drill a much larger hole in the cabinet, or also shut the water off, remove the valves and cap the copper to prevent debris from entering.

Do it once, or do it twice.


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## frodo (Sep 4, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Only if you drill a much larger hole in the cabinet, or also shut the water off, remove the valves and cap the copper to prevent debris from entering.
> 
> Do it once, or do it twice.



turn off the water, remove the stop, tape the pipe
pull the cabinet
as far as a hole in the cabinet, it would require a 1'' hole
that is covered by a shiny chrome eschaton 



actually, you have to do the same damn thing when pulling a cabinet with the supply lines coming thru the back panel ...geeeeezzz


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## Snoonyb (Sep 4, 2017)

That there is more too it, than indicated in post #38.

"actually, you have to do the same damn thing when pulling a cabinet with the supply lines coming thru the back panel ...geeeeezzz"

Actually you plan ahead for that eventuality by cutting and removing part of the panel, when they exist, and either leaving it open or installing a removable piece, depending upon the customers preference.


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## frodo (Sep 4, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> That there is more too it, than indicated in post #38.
> 
> "actually, you have to do the same damn thing when pulling a cabinet with the supply lines coming thru the back panel ...geeeeezzz"
> 
> Actually you plan ahead for that eventuality by cutting and removing part of the panel, when they exist, and either leaving it open or installing a removable piece, depending upon the customers preference.



never happens that way,  the carpenters ALWAYS cut a 1'' or larger hole
because the pipe is capped  and the cap must pass through the hole

I really do not understand your objection to piping coming up through the floor it is done all the time

we do it in colder climates when the plumbing is on the outside way. to keep the pipes from freezing


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## maxdad118 (Sep 4, 2017)

The slop in the plastic is minimal, I will install them with a little offset so the pipe is tight. I put a piece of 3/4 in the clamp and they seemed perfect. We'll see, I'll make it work but I know your reasoning, thanks Frodo!&#55357;&#56397;


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## Snoonyb (Sep 4, 2017)

frodo said:


> never happens that way,  the carpenters ALWAYS cut a 1'' or larger hole
> because the pipe is capped  and the cap must pass through the hole.



On new installations, however the subject of the thread is repipe where it happens all the time, especially when customer service is the gateway to referrals.



frodo said:


> I really do not understand your objection to piping coming up through the floor it is done all the time



I addressed that in post #21, however on the few that I punched through the floor, I held the hole near the back of the cabinet and notched the floor of the cabinet so it could be easily removed, without shutting off the water and removing the valves, which additionally didn't impede the storage.

I started doing this when there were no backs in the sink section of lav cabinets.

Customer service is why I've worked from referrals for over 35yrs. and do not advertise.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 4, 2017)

maxdad118 said:


> The slop in the plastic is minimal, I will install them with a little offset so the pipe is tight. I put a piece of 3/4 in the clamp and they seemed perfect. We'll see, I'll make it work but I know your reasoning, thanks Frodo!&#65533;&#65533;



You can wrap the pipe with tape to take up the space.


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## maxdad118 (Sep 4, 2017)

Spent a few hours running some copper from laundry room(slab) into crawl space, tied kitchen drop into tee 3/4x 1/2x 3/4...continued on over to master and stopped for the day. Dug up around riser to get a good look at it and premade the riser. Water heater valve and elbows premade along with washer tee and until I get the old stuff out of the way that's where I left off. Still need to add a tee and stub out for future tankless between the bathrooms.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 4, 2017)

Good planning.

Even though your heat will be above the ball valve, a rag soaked in cold water makes a good heat sink.


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## maxdad118 (Sep 4, 2017)

Thank you!


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## maxdad118 (Sep 8, 2017)

For making my pvc connection at the riser location, can I use the primer and purple cement or is there a 'food grade' cement? I realize it fuses the plastics and isn't a glue but wondered if there is any precautions as I will be drinking from it! Haha. Can't be any worse than the nasty galvanized it's been going thru, right?


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## frodo (Sep 9, 2017)

just run the water to flush out any residual taste,  you will be fine


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## maxdad118 (Sep 9, 2017)

Spent another fun morning in my crawl space. I tied in my 3/4 lines to both bathroom lines, the master is already copper so it's just waiting for me to shut off the water, cut it, install tee and tie it in. My father in law built the master and used 1/2" for everything so hopefully it doesn't cause an issue? I ran 3/4 to where I will tie into it. I ran out of energy under there because my old Dewalt cordless is garbage, battery doesn't hold a charge anymore, as I was drilling holes through the girders to keep it up high and eliminating the use of extra elbows. My piece of crap harbor freight corded drill started smoking when trying to drill through the foundation for my future tankless so that's on hold as well. But, I'm very close and that's rewarding! I'm short about (3) 10' sticks of copper so I'll have to get those this week, maybe tomorrow and borrow my father in laws hammer drill.


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## maxdad118 (Sep 10, 2017)

I also noticed that some of the fittings(tees and elbows) came with a very subtle imperfection or burr and not allowing a clean de- burred pipe to fit very easily? I knew to debur a fresh cut edge but didn't notice the fittings to come with a small imperfection. Not all of them but some.. I've been using a rotoburr tool and this is very quick and easy!&#55357;&#56397;


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## frodo (Sep 10, 2017)

by code, every cut piece of copper shall be reamed


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## maxdad118 (Sep 10, 2017)

Good to know, I've been doing it. Time consuming process too. Thanks&#55357;&#56397;


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## Snoonyb (Sep 10, 2017)

It's interesting, how sheltered a life we live, all these mfg's things you expect to be ready.

Since I also run a lot of elec. in conduit, I use my linemens pliers. Not as clean as the roto-tool, but works.


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## frodo (Sep 10, 2017)

I use a simple reed deburring tool, except 2 1/2 pipe and bigger, i use a round file

I use my drill to put my wire brush in


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## maxdad118 (Sep 21, 2017)

Has anyone used one of these plunge saw tools for difficult access cutting of galvanized pipe? There is one spot where I need to cut and a sawzall may be difficult. Just want to know before I crawl all the way to the most difficult corner of my crawl space. Thanks.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 22, 2017)

I have this tool;

Fein FMM 350 QSL Multimaster Oscillating Multi-Tool with Hard Case and Top Accessory Package

And have used both of these blades, however because they are not designed specifically for your application, take a couple of blades, or more, with you.


Fein 63502106210 MultiMaster 3-1/8 in. Starlock HSS Segment Saw Blade

Fein 63502152290 1-3/4 in. Universal Oscillating E-Cut Saw Blade (10-Pack)


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## maxdad118 (Sep 22, 2017)

It's mainly one cut that I need to do and I got a carbide blade. Rest I should be able to use my sawzall for the most part. Thanks, I appreciate it.


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## Snoonyb (Sep 22, 2017)

Budget for contingency.

Either try it on a piece of galv. pipe before you go under or take a couple of blades with you.

They are returnable.


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## maxdad118 (Sep 22, 2017)

Well tomorrow is the big day and point of no return once I shut that water off, once I remove the horizontal piece from the riser into the crawlspace I'll cut the PVC,  glue on my prefabbed  riser, push a 10 footer through the existing opening and sweat it to the tee on the top of the riser. Then I'll do my crawling and tie in. Hopefully all goes as planned?&#55357;&#56835;&#55357;&#56397;


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## slownsteady (Sep 22, 2017)

What do you have supporting the ten footer? I don't think it will be easy just dangling there from the elbow.


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## maxdad118 (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm putting the copper hangers temporarily nailed to the joists, I will go back under when everything is soldered and put the horseshoe looking ones every other joist and wherever I can. I'm having the 10 footer supported so it's not dangling when I solder. Some of the old galvanized is in the way so I don't have the hangers fully nailed in but enough to hold the pipes up and it allows a little 'wiggle room' to fit the next fitting or pipe.


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## maxdad118 (Sep 24, 2017)

I made a big f up! While cutting out my old pipe I somehow managed to rip right thru the 3/8 copper on the hot side! Ugh! I was filling the water heater and was hearing a strange sound from under the kitchen sink. Dammit! Not to mention that pipe is still dribbling water out of it for the past 2 hours! Nothing is open, obviously, so not hot shower until tomorrow. All my cold seems good, no leaks. My plastic pipe supports worked awesome too! I'm going to get rid of the 3/8 rolled copper and redoe that section back to the water heater, hopefully this water stops by tomorrow? I opened the faucets for a while but didn't change much. You can see the hot side dribbling water behind the wasteline in the last pic&#55357;&#56873; Can't seem to post without pictures going sideways?


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## Snoonyb (Sep 24, 2017)

Relive your childhood and enjoy the mud-pies, an occupational hazard.


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## frodo (Sep 24, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Relive your childhood and enjoy the mud-pies, an occupational hazard.



few years back, we had a hard freeze and fixing busted pipes were the important calls for a week.

I went to a day care center called the Muster Seed,  busted pipe under the building

4'' of standing water at 35 degrees. fun fun fun
I slid under the building and crawled in the water dragging my tools and torch in a plastic tub.  fixed the leak while me teeth chattered
and hands were blue
then went home for the rest of the day

Here is a BOo BOo you just might relate to
was topping out a house and needed to tie the meter in.
I looked at the meter and it was pointed down on a 45 degree angle
so I grabbed the meter to lift it up.
and heard the sound you do not want to hear   ''Snap''
oh oh..this damn meter is hooked to pvc instead of copper off the main
LOL.  I am freaking soaked
helper throws me a dresser coupling, a nipple, and gate valve
It took me FOREVER to stab that dresser on that live line
and pound a stake in the ground to hold it
I finally was able to close that valve
mission accomplished

was at a hospital and needed to demo a 1.5'' water line
hospital maintenance was NOT going to let me shut the water off.
soooooo..
I had a helper hold a sledge hammer side ways under the pipe
While I beat the pipe flat, to stop the flow
then cut the pipe, and soldered a valve on, 

My boss had put a 5 galon bucket under a tiny leak on a VAV box in the ceiling
I found the bucket about 8 years later when it filled up and startd dripping on the ceiling
LOL  I ragged his *** every chance I got

a trick that might come in handy
drill a hole in a 5 gallon bucket, install a water heater pan male adaptor
glue a 3/4 male adapter on the WH pan fitting and install a hose bib/ boiler drain
now you can drain a pipe above a wood floor with out ruining the floor
run a hose outside


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## maxdad118 (Sep 24, 2017)

Any idea what this is? Doesn't resemble the PRV I'm use to seeing. It's downstream of the meter in its own box.


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## frodo (Sep 24, 2017)

That would be a Double check valve assembly
installed in the mud, it is supposed to be in a gravel pit

typically that is the feed to your sprinkler system


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## frodo (Sep 24, 2017)

..................


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## maxdad118 (Sep 24, 2017)

Thanks Frodo


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