# Rotten floor joist under walker-in shower



## zerokreap (Apr 7, 2017)

So, I bought my first home back in 06, then moved to a new city in 10. I was unable to sell the place for what I needed (was not going to pay someone to buy the joint), so it became a rental property. It pays for itself and then some with rent each month. So I'm ok with the arrangement, though it is not ideal considering my proximity to the property (I live about 95 miles away). 

The house was built in 1925, with a 650 or so square feet addition added in the late 1950s. The problem I am having is in the 1950s addition. 

Right after moving into the place, the walk-in shower was clearly in need of some attention. The floor was cracking along grout lines, but it didn't look horrible. Called a tile guy in, he said I likely had a leaking shower pan that needed replacement. So I had him install a new shower pan using one of those pan liners that goes up the wall, which he said would "never leak." At the time, he also said that there might be damage underneath the house, but that there was no obvious structural damage...no bounce or troubling unevenness in the floor. Anyway, I am fairly certain that shower pan he installed has performed quite well since...and is not currently leaking. However, it would seem that there was considerable damage done before the new lined pan was installed. Specifically, a floor joist was soaking in water leaking from the pan for quite a while...maybe years.  

From what I see under the house, it looks like the joist actually bent fairly significantly, before eventually breaking in the not too distant past, thanks to rot. I have never seen a bent joist...I wonder if it is a testament to the older growth lumber that would have been used at the time. It would take quite a while for a timber to bend like that, no?

















As you can see, I have hard water, which has caused some calcification on the foundation wall there, as well as the wood subfloor and joists. 






Those two joists in the pic (to the right of where the rotten joist sits) have the hard water staining, but they don't seem to have any rot...I poked them substantially with my screwdriver to check for weak spots. Then again, perhaps there's no way that the integrity of the timber isn't compromised, considering that we can see that the water has definitely been in contact with the wood at some point. And, to my untrained eye, it looks like maybe those joists were sistered at some point to shore up the wood compromised by prolonged contact with water?


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 7, 2017)

If I think back to the state of the walls and pan when I moved in, in terms of cracking and other signs of movement, I would say the main joist in question was bent when I purchased the place, and perhaps only broke sometime in the past few years after I had the pan replaced. I say this because there was a time when, all of a sudden, it seemed like the room was settling more than usual. The place is well-built, but on soil with high clay content...so water, or lack thereof, can cause quite a bit of movement in piers. So I was used to some movement and cracking in walls. This just seemed a bit extreme for that particular room. 











You can see the floor has dropped about a half inch since the replacement pan was installed. Most of this movement occurred in the last year. 






The shower sits in the right-most 4' of the other side of that yellow wall there, with the laundry room on the other side. 






There's some obvious "cross-bracing," if that's the right word, that was done at some point. Perhaps additional evidence that the problem was "fixed" at some point in the (perhaps distant) past. It looks like it might have been done after bending in the joist had occurred, but before the break. So perhaps it was done when the pan that I replaced was installed. Who knows...the work looks pretty amateur though. 

I would really love to do this work myself, and save a ton of money...but I need some more experienced folks to give me their opinions. I have not done any foundation work before. However, having carried out other big jobs on my houses, as well as my cars, I doubt it is completely beyond me and would love to give it a shot. Of course, if you more experienced folks think this is best left to professionals, I can pony up the money and save myself a lot of time....I definitely have other things I could be doing for my day job. 

I would like to think that I have two options...that I can either do some good bracing with screw jack posts on the joists on either side of the broken joist, or lift everything a touch more, cut out the rot on the joist, and sister up a new one. Unfortunately, if I am going to really fix that joist, I am going to have to go through the shower pan and subfloor to get to it. There is currently just not enough room to do it any other way...there's about 14'' right now in the crawl space where the joist is. I would love to avoid that for a few more years if possible....so as to get a few more miles out of the money I spent to have the current lined pan installed. 

Like I said before though, those other joists might already be compromised, even though there's no rot. So maybe the only good decision is a full repair of all three of those joists? 

By the way, on the other side of that wall with hard water staining that is running under the shower, there is another 15' of good joists...no rot or anything.

Any thoughts?


----------



## nealtw (Apr 8, 2017)

So the brick wall is the original outside wall of the house?


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 8, 2017)

nealtw said:


> So the brick wall is the original outside wall of the house?



Perhaps. The original outside wall proper is another 10 to 12 feet the other direction. On the pic showing the laundry room, it is the wall on the far left that you can't really see (with the door opening into the other room). I think that foundation wall might have been an outside support for a small or storage room that was converted into the bathroom with the walk-in shower. I'll see if I can post some more pics.


----------



## slownsteady (Apr 8, 2017)

Forget sistering, there's not enough good wood there to save. A bit hard to tell from the pix, but it looks like the broken "joist" is sitting on top of that wall and it looks like the wall has settled quite a bit. Footings and short jacks may be the best you can do; Footings being the most important part. How long are the joists?


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 8, 2017)

nealtw said:


> So the brick wall is the original outside wall of the house?








In this pic, you can see the original outside wall to the right...the rotted joist would be to the left, outside of frame.






Here, you can see that wall, atop which the rotted joist sits, but from the laundry room side.


----------



## nealtw (Apr 8, 2017)

zerokreap said:


> Perhaps. The original outside wall proper is another 10 to 12 feet the other direction. On the pic showing the laundry room, it is the wall on the far left that you can't really see (with the door opening into the other room). I think that foundation wall might have been an outside support for a small or storage room that was converted into the bathroom with the walk-in shower. I'll see if I can post some more pics.



If the shower isn't leaking now the tile guy did a good job, structure not so much.

That joist that is bent, I think it took lots of water, lots of weight and lots of time. What you need to figure out is if that is a bearing wall, Is the wall directly above it beside the shower.


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 8, 2017)

nealtw said:


> If the shower isn't leaking now the tile guy did a good job, structure not so much.
> 
> That joist that is bent, I think it took lots of water, lots of weight and lots of time. What you need to figure out is if that is a bearing wall, Is the wall directly above it beside the shower.



The wall above it is only about 4' and is shared by one side of the shower on one side and the left-most wall of the laundry room (in the previous pic) on the other. 

It runs parallel to the joists, so I was thinking that it wouldn't be load-bearing unless it was an original outside wall...but that's just my ill-informed guess at this point.  






I just posted this pic, but here it is again, so that I can point out that the wall ends there on the left. At that point, there is a gap of about 3' where a few pipes run...the central beam runs just to the left of that opening....and a load-bearing wall in the old part of the house sits atop that beam about 10' further away from that break I mention on the left side of the wall in question. Other than it looking fairly built up for support, and that it might be an original outside wall, is there any way to know if it's bearing load?


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 8, 2017)

zerokreap said:


> The wall above it is only about 4' and is shared by one side of the shower on one side and the left-most wall of the laundry room (in the previous pic) on the other.
> 
> It runs parallel to the joists, so I was thinking that it wouldn't be load-bearing unless it was an original outside wall...but that's just my ill-informed guess at this point.
> 
> ...



I take that back, the central beam of the addition runs across the leftmost part of the wall in question. The main beam of the original house is in line with the left side of that opening I mention. 






In this pic, you can see that central beam for the addition, looking from the other direction. The drain for that walk-in shower is off to the left there. and you can see the opening in the wall from the other side there on the right....with the drain line from the laundry room running through there....that is also my route into the crawl space for the original house.


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 8, 2017)

slownsteady said:


> Forget sistering, there's not enough good wood there to save. A bit hard to tell from the pix, but it looks like the broken "joist" is sitting on top of that wall and it looks like the wall has settled quite a bit. Footings and short jacks may be the best you can do; Footings being the most important part. How long are the joists?



I'll need to take that exact measurement. If I had to guess, I would say 12-14 feet. Maybe I can ride down there tomorrow and take any new pics or measurements y'all think I might need to figure this out. 

Would I need to pour a footing, or could I just use an entrenchment tool and dig down 8 or so inches, pack the dirt if needed, and put a prefab footing in place? If I need to go with the more involved option of a poured footing, I will definitely need to go through the floor.


----------



## nealtw (Apr 8, 2017)

A load bearing foundation will have a wall sitting on it or floor joists that end on it. With a wall sitting on it or above it there may be ceiling joists that end on it and or support for the roof structure.
If it was the original outside wall you may be able to tell just by looking at the roof.
With a modern build, we call platform framing, the floor is built first then the walls are built on that.
Older balloon framing, the walls were built and then the floors were added.

I am guessing that you must have balloon framing and the floor may have broke loose from the wall. But that is just a guess.


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 8, 2017)

nealtw said:


> If the shower isn't leaking now the tile guy did a good job, structure not so much.
> 
> That joist that is bent, I think it took lots of water, lots of weight and lots of time. What you need to figure out is if that is a bearing wall, Is the wall directly above it beside the shower.



To be honest, I have not tested the pan yet. I just figured the damage would be much worse if it had been leaking for the last 8 or so years (after having been leaking for so many years before that). 

I was thinking I could run the shower with the shower head plastering the shower wall with water (there are currently open gaps on the perimeter of where the floor meets the wall. If the lining is leaking at all, I should see something after running that water for 20 or so minutes, no? I suppose I could also clog the drain and let the water fill up to where the wall and pan meet. I hate to do that, but worst case, one more day of leaking will not hurt.

The place is currently sitting empty and I'm not going to put anyone in there until this is fixed, so I can do whatever is need to figure this out....and, like I said, I can just pay someone to get this done if it is just over my head.


----------



## nealtw (Apr 8, 2017)

I may be a little disoriented but it looks like one side has been lifted and a beam under it. 
The other side maybe can be fixed in a similar fashion.
If the shower pan is rubber it may have stretched to fit and hopefully not lost.


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 8, 2017)

nealtw said:


> A load bearing foundation will have a wall sitting on it or floor joists that end on it. With a wall sitting on it or above it there may be ceiling joists that end on it and or support for the roof structure.
> If it was the original outside wall you may be able to tell just by looking at the roof.
> With a modern build, we call platform framing, the floor is built first then the walls are built on that.
> Older balloon framing, the walls were built and then the floors were added.
> ...



From what I have been seeing under there, I tend to agree with your assessment. I think the framing has fallen off the outside foundation wall of that addition on one side, thanks to the broken joist.






In this pic, you can see the outside foundation wall just left of the drain for the walk-in shower (just out of frame). The wall in question, would also be to the right, just out of frame. I am looking toward that outside wall from the center of the crawl space.






In this pic, we are looking further left on that outside wall....comparing with the pic above, you can tell the fraing has slipped down about 4 inches there toward where the joist is rotten.


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 8, 2017)

nealtw said:


> I may be a little disoriented but it looks like one side has been lifted and a beam under it.
> The other side maybe can be fixed in a similar fashion.
> If the shower pan is rubber it may have stretched to fit and hopefully not lost.



You're correct. As far as the shower pan liner, I would definitely rather be safe and redo it, if there's any question at all.


----------



## nealtw (Apr 8, 2017)

That far out of level should really show up in the house.
If that is a bearing wall supporting ceiling or roof you need to make sure it doesn't need repairs too. But lifting the floor back in place doesn't look to hard.


----------



## nealtw (Apr 8, 2017)

zerokreap said:


> You're correct. As far as the shower pan liner, I would definitely rather be safe and redo it, if there's any question at all.



I would do my best to attempt a lift and if the shower went back together, caulk it and wait a day and then test it for leaks. if it's good it's good.


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 8, 2017)

nealtw said:


> That far out of level should really show up in the house.
> If that is a bearing wall supporting ceiling or roof you need to make sure it doesn't need repairs too. But lifting the floor back in place doesn't look to hard.



Well, there are cracks in several of the walls that open and close throughout the year, depending on rainfall. 






In this pic, we looking at the second bedroom, which has a bathroom between it and the room that's attached to the bathroom with the walk-in. That's actually the longest and craziest crack in the place. There is one that's a bit wider which is in the living room...on the wall closest to the room that attaches to the walk-in shower bathroom...just across the hall. Just through the door and to the right. Fairly long, and quite wide crack (below).






Of course, in these pics, I had just finished some sort-term repairs on them...just using some Dynaflex 230.


Also, the "flat roof" that sat atop the addition, was actually rather concave when I moved in...one of several major problems, like this joist, that the pre-purchase inspection missed...all of which had to be fixed rather soon after I took possession of the house. No to digress, but while I didn't do very well with that first house, there was so many problems that I learned a lot about what to look for...silver lining and such. Anyway that part of the roof had gone concave and was holding a ton of water and leaking, so I had a new pitched roof build on top of it and attached to the pitched roof of the original house. 

To jack that portion of the floor back up, would it cause any unwanted changes in the roof over the addition?


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 8, 2017)

nealtw said:


> I would do my best to attempt a lift and if the shower went back together, caulk it and wait a day and then test it for leaks. if it's good it's good.



That sounds reasonable.


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 8, 2017)

nealtw said:


> I would do my best to attempt a lift and if the shower went back together, caulk it and wait a day and then test it for leaks. if it's good it's good.



Like you mentioned, I can go with something similar to what's on the other side of the possible load-bearing wall we've been discussing...


----------



## nealtw (Apr 8, 2017)

with something like this you can map out the floor and make a plan of action
https://www.boschtools.com/us/en/boschtools-ocs/line-lasers-23506-c/

A job like this might take more planning than work.

I would also check the ceiling for level too.


----------



## bud16415 (Apr 8, 2017)

Neal is the expert so I will go with his plan. For me crawling around below the floor is fine for making a plan of action, but I would be removing the floor and make the repairs from above given the damage you show. I have a feeling the view from above will show you a lot more as to what is going on. It changes the scope of the job quite a bit but could speed it up at the same time.


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 8, 2017)

nealtw said:


> with something like this you can map out the floor and make a plan of action
> https://www.boschtools.com/us/en/boschtools-ocs/line-lasers-23506-c/
> 
> A job like this might take more planning than work.
> ...



Neal, can you elaborate a little more on this. The link takes me to a page with several different tools. And to be honest, never have used anything other than a classic level, I am not exactly sure how to use one of these to map things out as you suggest.


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 8, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> Neal is the expert so I will go with his plan. For me crawling around below the floor is fine for making a plan of action, but I would be removing the floor and make the repairs from above given the damage you show. I have a feeling the view from above will show you a lot more as to what is going on. It changes the scope of the job quite a bit but could speed it up at the same time.



Your point is well-taken, but because of that wall I would not be able to get exactly above the rotten joist. Would that nullify the advantage of coming in from the top?


----------



## bud16415 (Apr 8, 2017)

zerokreap said:


> Your point is well-taken, but because of that wall I would not be able to get exactly above the rotten joist. Would that nullify the advantage of coming in from the top?



I dont think so even if you had to remove some of the wall coverings it would give you the big picture. The more of this I do the more I find getting to the problem ends up being less work in the long run even with having to go back in and repair all the tear out. Plus as I get older working in cramped quarters is not my thing as well.


----------



## nealtw (Apr 8, 2017)

zerokreap said:


> Neal, can you elaborate a little more on this. The link takes me to a page with several different tools. And to be honest, never have used anything other than a classic level, I am not exactly sure how to use one of these to map things out as you suggest.



These are lower priced laser levels that can be set on the floor, the make a level red line thru out the room a few inches from the floor.

With some very simple math and a tape measure you map the floor slope.
If the light come out of the machine at 3" and you find across the room it is 5" from the floor you have a 2" problem in that area.


----------



## nealtw (Apr 8, 2017)

zerokreap said:


> Neal, can you elaborate a little more on this. The link takes me to a page with several different tools. And to be honest, never have used anything other than a classic level, I am not exactly sure how to use one of these to map things out as you suggest.



I just meant you might gain access to a small hole to see the type of construction at the bottom of the wall. Or is it sitting in the floor?


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 8, 2017)

nealtw said:


> These are lower priced laser levels that can be set on the floor, the make a level red line thru out the room a few inches from the floor.
> 
> With some very simple math and a tape measure you map the floor slope.
> If the light come out of the machine at 3" and you find across the room it is 5" from the floor you have a 2" problem in that area.



Ok, thanks. That makes perfect sense, and actually sounds like a great reason to purchase one of these tools.


----------



## nealtw (Apr 8, 2017)

zerokreap said:


> Ok, thanks. That makes perfect sense, and actually sounds like a great reason to purchase one of these tools.



Just looking at the floor joists I do think that is original outside wall, the house might have been L shaped before the addition.


----------



## nealtw (Apr 8, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> I dont think so even if you had to remove some of the wall coverings it would give you the big picture. The more of this I do the more I find getting to the problem ends up being less work in the long run even with having to go back in and repair all the tear out. Plus as I get older working in cramped quarters is not my thing as well.



He did say if the job was to much he might hire a pro.

In the mean time someone has to figure out if this is platform or balloon and develop the plan.


----------



## nealtw (Apr 8, 2017)

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUhIeGO7dao[/ame]


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 8, 2017)

nealtw said:


> He did say if the job was to much he might hire a pro.
> 
> In the mean time someone has to figure out if this is platform or balloon and develop the plan.



I do my best not to mess with the walls much int he old part of the house, since they are plaster and a lot harder to repair than sheetrock...at least, in my experience. The addition is sheetrock though, so perhaps I can cut a small porthole and figure this out. Man, I wish I lived closer to the house so I could easily run over there and sort this stuff out quickly.

Maybe some of these pics will help, otherwise I can get some better ones soon:


----------



## nealtw (Apr 8, 2017)

All that looks like newer construction, not much of it was done correctly but it for the most part is passing the test.

The areas that have turned black where there is a water stain might have things growing in them. Once that has dried out it should be treated with something that kills mold and such.
End grain treatment is copper and is used for cuts in treated lumber and works well for killing mold in lumber that can't be removed.. Paints like water.
https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.cut-n-seal-pro-guard-soft-green-946ml.1000110347.html


----------



## nealtw (Apr 8, 2017)

This brick wall looks to have built in posts that could have supported the floor. As long as it is the brick wall that is level.
It appears there is daylight showing at the far end??


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 8, 2017)

nealtw said:


> This brick wall looks to have built in posts that could have supported the floor. As long as it is the brick wall that is level.
> It appears there is daylight showing at the far end??



Yes, I think the flex downward to the right in that pic, where the joist has collapsed, is what is causing that bit of light to come in...basically, the length of the wall has shortened and turned upward on the ends, just enough, to allow a bit of light. Looking from the outside of the house, there is no obvious gap leading under the house. That pic was taken in the late afternoon and that is the west wall of the addition, so perhaps the extra light makes it look a bit more exposed than is the case. Of course, that addition could have been much better, let's not kid ourselves. 

One issue that came up was a tree growing next to that wall died a few years ago...and I think after the roots rotted, the soil began to collapse a bit. This has produced a bit of lean in one portion of the wall. Jeez this all probably makes the place sound like a total hole. 

The original portions of the house are actually very decently done. Unfortunately, I haven't taken any pics, since there's nothing wrong in that part. If I could just get this joist problem solved. I would be in pretty good shape overall.


----------



## nealtw (Apr 9, 2017)

You will need to find out just how bad the floor level is and what the construction style is. 
Even with a balloon frame some of the interior walls maybe built on top of the floors like a platform. 
If that wall is bearing, you will need to get to the attic and see just how things are sitting on the wall like ceiling joist that join there or roof structure that is landing on it. Pictures please.


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 10, 2017)

nealtw said:


> You will need to find out just how bad the floor level is and what the construction style is.
> Even with a balloon frame some of the interior walls maybe built on top of the floors like a platform.
> If that wall is bearing, you will need to get to the attic and see just how things are sitting on the wall like ceiling joist that join there or roof structure that is landing on it. Pictures please.



Unfortunately, there is no attic. That is to say, up until about 8 years ago, there was a flat roof above that portion of the house. When I discovered that roof was actually holding water and leaking, I had a pitched roof build on top of it. That roof line was tied into the pitch of the roof for the original part of the house. 

I should be back down at the house in the next week or so. I will do my best to figure out if it's platform or balloon...and if the walls are sitting on the floors or just outside the floor framing. I'll take some pics in the attic that I have over the original house. 

I am guessing that I will need to know the framing methods for both sections of the house...I suppose it's not beyond reason that I might have balloon in one part and platform in another?

One thing I am a bit concerned about would be that the lifting action would affect where the roof line of the original and addition are tied together. I would have for this movement to cause some sort of leak. 

Lastly, any lift should be done rather slowly, right? 0.5-1'' per week?


----------



## bud16415 (Apr 10, 2017)

If this drop mostly happened before the roof was rebuilt there is a good chance the roof line will change in correcting this problem with lifting it back into place. Be very careful in planning a lift even a very slow one. Old houses mostly changed over decades and have taken a set. If things have pulled away then a lift could close the gaps back up. If it has fallen and then the roof repaired there are no gaps to close up.

Sometimes what is needed is to just solidly stabilize and then shim the damaged area back up and rebuild it.


----------



## nealtw (Apr 10, 2017)

They should have cut an access hole from old attic into new, but if the plywood is still there, looking at it might not help.

What we want to know is just how bad everything is, if it is just the floor that can be dealt with pretty quickly but if it is walls, you are right in working a slow lift to allow things to go back in place.
Depending on what is wrong and if the walls and floor are separate it might be better to just stabilize the walls where they are.

If we just guess that the ceiling was say 2x6 joists with a 10 or 12 ft span. Does it look like they would have to land on that wall.
Then when they structured the new roof they may have put new weight on that wall.


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 10, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> If this drop mostly happened before the roof was rebuilt there is a good chance the roof line will change in correcting this problem with lifting it back into place. Be very careful in planning a lift even a very slow one. Old houses mostly changed over decades and have taken a set. If things have pulled away then a lift could close the gaps back up. If it has fallen and then the roof repaired there are no gaps to close up.
> 
> Sometimes what is needed is to just solidly stabilize and then shim the damaged area back up and rebuild it.



I bet at least half of the drop had already occurred before the new roof...and then half after the roof was built. I will be sure to have a roofing expert come check things out after the repair to make sure it all looks as it should. :thbup:


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 10, 2017)

nealtw said:


> They should have cut an access hole from old attic into new, but if the plywood is still there, looking at it might not help.
> 
> What we want to know is just how bad everything is, if it is just the floor that can be dealt with pretty quickly but if it is walls, you are right in working a slow lift to allow things to go back in place.
> Depending on what is wrong and if the walls and floor are separate it might be better to just stabilize the walls where they are.
> ...



I can tell you that the old flat room was minimal...I mean, I bet there was only about 6'' of space between the ceiling and the roof. There was a thin layer of insulation and some plywood, then a thick, rubber-like roof shingle. When they built the new pitched roof atop that, it was a really simple layout with the new weight fairly evenly-distributed across that established surface of the flat roof, which they did not change at all. 

Like I said though, the next time I'm there I will do my best to figure out if the walls are sitting atop the floors or not.


----------



## mabloodhound (Apr 16, 2017)

All of those floor joists are missing metal hangers.  Especially the notched joists on the center beam.  This has decreased their load carrying value and definitely need hangers applied while you're under there.  Not a hard job, just time consuming.
And don't be too concerned about getting it all perfectly level.  Getting the new replacement joists in place and up tight to the floor is most important.  I would think a pre-poured footing on a solid base would work OK, as you suggested.  The only part that needs to be close to level is the shower pan, or at least sloped so it drains properly.
On the many old houses I've worked on (and lived in) I make them straight and strong and live with the sloping character.  This would also cause less problems with the roof line.

Dave Mason


----------



## Mastercarpenty (Apr 16, 2017)

mabloodhound said:


> On the many old houses I've worked on (and lived in) I make them straight and strong and live with the sloping character.  This would also cause less problems with the roof line.
> 
> Dave Mason



When I'm working with an old house, my level serves only as a a straight edge; everything else aligns with and references to the house as it sits. Plumbing drains are the only place ypu always need a level to ensure proper slope. Old houses may have been level when they were built but time changes that so you just follow along.

Phil


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 22, 2017)

Ok, so I installed 4 jack posts to raise the two adjacent joists by about 3''. This is really just the beginning, but because of my distance from the house, the work cannot happen as quickly as I would like. Basically, my thought on all of this is that I simply want to get this place up and running. I really need to get some new renters in there. So I am not planning on replacing the joist at this time, but rather simply reinforcing the surrounding joists. Of course, I would love to fix everything in the ideal manner, but it is really hard for me to justify pumping more money into this place than I already have...especially considering the fact that it's not currently worth what I owe. Maybe if the market recovers in my area, or I can get a bit more equity in the place, then I can justify spending $5-10k getting things where they need to be, but until that time, I need to limp along as effectively as possible.

First, it is important to know that I did not have much room in which to work under the house. This part of the house only has about 12-14'' of ground clearance. Luckily, where the problem exists is right next to a crawl space vent...and I am a thin, youngish fellow....so I was able to do all of the work so far through that hole. Of course, I am covered in bruises from all the time spent with my arms resting on the brick wall. Good ab workout though...a lot of planking, but I digress. 

For the jack footing, I dug down about 10'' into the ground using an entrenchment tool - 2'x'1 perimeter. I then threw down about 2'' of sand, packed it, then 4'' of gravel, packed it, then another 1'' of packed sand. I then used some old bricks I had laying around as the base for the jack stands. I know it's not ideal, but there was not enough room for anything bigger. I suppose I could have poured a rebar-reinforced concrete footing, but I was worried that I might do something improper, then not have the ability to correct the issue...like if I needed to re-position or something. another where I placed the jacks. 

I then positioned a treated 4x4 timber that I cut to about 3.5' atop two jack posts I was not sure of exact positioning, so was not able to screw the jack top plates in place before moving everything in place. So some fancy duck taping and my to plates stay in place on the jacks while I maneuvered everything into place. Once the timber was in place, I rotated the entire jack by hand to get the top plates snug against the timber/joists. I then screwed the plates into place to prevent movement as I applied real torque. 

I jacked everything up 2-3'' without any problems. Didn't hear any creaking or cracking to speak of. I then placed another to jacks under the same time, just for good measure. When I checked inside the house, there were no cracks in the wall and the floor of the shower have moved back to where it was when the tile was laid. Unfortunately, even checking with a level, I raised one side about 2/8ths of an inch too much and the tile in the shower pan cracked along mostly grout lines on one side. Four tiles (these are small 1.5''x1.5'' tiles) broke along the uneven floor. Also, the mud deck fractured. 

So now my question, can I take up tile along the fracture and simply use some thin-set to repair the deck and reinstall the tile, the re-grout? If so, that is what I will do. Then after everything is cured, I will turn the shower on full blast while I crawl up under the house and check for leaks. If I have leaks, I guess I will need to invest in a repair, rather I want to or not. 

If no leaks, then I will spend a bit more time placing addition jack stands under other parts of the structure as a bit of insurance.


----------



## zerokreap (Apr 22, 2017)

nealtw said:


> They should have cut an access hole from old attic into new, but if the plywood is still there, looking at it might not help.
> 
> What we want to know is just how bad everything is, if it is just the floor that can be dealt with pretty quickly but if it is walls, you are right in working a slow lift to allow things to go back in place.
> Depending on what is wrong and if the walls and floor are separate it might be better to just stabilize the walls where they are.
> ...



The walls seem to be outside of the floor frame on the add-on part of the house. They sit atop the floors in the original house.


----------



## mabloodhound (Apr 22, 2017)

zerokreap said:


> So now my question, can I take up tile along the fracture and simply use some thin-set to repair the deck and reinstall the tile, the re-grout? If so, that is what I will do. Then after everything is cured, I will turn the shower on full blast while I crawl up under the house and check for leaks. If I have leaks, I guess I will need to invest in a repair, rather I want to or not.
> 
> If no leaks, then I will spend a bit more time placing addition jack stands under other parts of the structure as a bit of insurance.



Sadly, too much jacking has cracked the mud.  Guess you can try thin set. although hydraulic cement might be better.  Then reset the tile and re-grout and hope for the best.
Good luck
Dave Mason


----------

