# Garage Tilting



## biddlecom

My garage is tilting to the left towards my house.  It is about 16 feet wide and 35 feet long.  Is there a way I can fix this so it doesnt fall over during the Maine winter?


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## Sparky617

Is there any rot causing this garage to rack?  Having two garage doors front and back is taking some rigidity out of the structure.  Do you need both doors?  If not, I might try to unrack it and install a cross brace across the door you  don't need on the inside.  Going from the bottom side closest to the house and the top side away from the house.  Closing in the door and installing plywood or OSB sheathing once you unrack the garage should keep it from leaning.   Any rot issues would need to be repaired.


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## biddlecom

I actually would be willing to do that but how do I get the garage square again before I cover the door and add sheathing?


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## Sparky617

A couple of ways come to mind, hopefully one of the contractor types will weigh in before too long.

You could use a hydraulic jack and a 2x4 or 4x4 to push on the top plate from inside to push it out to vertical.  Assuming the thing isn't going fall in on you.  A second way could be to attach a come-along to the top plate from outside and pull it up to vertical.


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## nealtw

Is the inside open studs so we can see whatrs going on and what is it sitting on.
A concrete foundation in main I think should be 4ft below ground level.
So we need to know what you have.


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## biddlecom

So I attached a few more photos.  I apologize that they are not the best.  The garage is on footings (photo attached)  that are 4 ft Im pretty sure.  The rafters are kind of weird, there is a block between them for some reason.  My main goal is to get it as straight as possible easily and secure it so it will last another 5+ years.


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## Sparky617

The blocking looks like it is trying to transfer the load from the ridge to the joist.

The garage has solid lumber (as opposed to plywood) sheathing on the diagonal.  Absent the two garage doors this would be very strong.  The two garage doors take away all the structure allowing the garage to rack.  

Another thought on pulling it up would be to use the come-along inside going from the bottom of the wall away from the house diagonally to the top of the wall closest to the house. Kind of like a turnbuckle used to strengthen a gate or door.


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## nealtw

Sparky; Good thoughts but you're ahead of your self, first we find out what is wrong and figure out hiow to tackle that problem.

biddlecom; It appears that it is out of level. Tie ceiling ties below the rafters should be level from side to side. If it is just a leaning probem they will still be level.
So do a quick check of those and then measure the width between walls at the ceiling and at the bottom of the walls.

What is the floor surface, concrete?


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## biddlecom

its an asphalt.  I can do the level check when I get home today.  I see it just being a leaning problem because the footings are still solid and in place.  And it seems the only reason the garage isnt leaning over even more to the left is because of the side area and the awning on my side door.


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## Sparky617

I suspect it is leaning because you have two garage doors cut out one on each end.  With plywood sheathing on the inside you may be able to keep both doors and get it standing vertical.  I'm not sure if sheathing the back wall alcove will be enough to keep it from racking but it would be my first effort.  If you can live without the back overhead door framing that out once you get it unracked and putting in sheathing should keep it from racking in the future.

The pictures aren't great but it doesn't appear that there is any rot on the sill plate or studs.  It appears to be racking in the direction that solid wood sheathing is running.  Cross bracing would help.  The diagonal bracing was a good idea, but with the big hole cut out of it for the overhead door that wasn't enough structure to keep it from racking.   Had the overhead door been over a few feet and the sheathing between it and the current narrow side been plywood it probably would have not racked.


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## biddlecom

If I do the come-along method.  What rating coma along should I get, 2,000 lbs or 4,000 lbs?  Do you use chains with come-alongs?


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## beachguy005

I can't tell by the pictures but are all the walls secured to the footing through the bottom plates?


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## biddlecom

yeah it has a piece of rebar or something along those lines that goes through the wood.


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## nealtw

If you can prove that the foundation is stll level from side to side and the walls are the same distance apart top and bottom the full length f the garage, then you can lean it back with (spring braces)
spring braces are nothing more than a 2x4 on the flat, one end against the floor and foundation on one side and high against a stud on the other wall. One person bend the 2x4 by pushing down in the center and another person nails it to the stud. Now you have it jammed in there with a big curve, just pull the center back up so the 2x4 is straight and you have moved it 1/2 to 1". do that in 4 or 5 places as well as at or near the doors. Once you have done that leave it sit for a day to allow things to move and settle again. If the 2x4 don't want to stay straight put a leg in the middle between the floor and a rafter then nail the 2x4 to it.
The next day start with a new set of 2x4s and do the same thing with studs close to the first ones. On the third day you will bwe able to re-do the first 2x4s and so on.
I do see a problem in photo 6 of post 6 where the foundation and the wall look strange at the door and that will have to be watched cloosely will moving the structure..
If the walls are not secrurely bolted down then nail a 2x4 from bottom plate to bottom plate near where the spring braces will be used so the bottom dosn't kick out.
What was suggested about the plywood on the inside of the wall around the garage doors is called a stress wall. 1/2 plywood or osb screwed or nailed every 4" around the perimter and the studs and solid blocking where the sheets meet between the studs.


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## bud16415

Could be the photos but I dont see it racking. The front view looks like the right side is out but the left side looks straight. If it was racking a level on both front corner would read the same. The roof looks to have a dip also.


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## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> Could be the photos but I dont see it racking. The front view looks like the right side is out but the left side looks straight. If it was racking a level on both front corner would read the same. The roof looks to have a dip also.



That's why I thought it might be foundation issue.


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## bud16415

nealtw said:


> That's why I thought it might be foundation issue.



Could be foundation, but OP said all was solid I believe. Could also be the roof is starting to buckle down drawing the one side in. Cell phone cams have almost a fish eye lens though and can cause things to look off. He does show the garage up against the awning so I dont think it was built like that. Most likely a combination of all the above.


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## slownsteady

OP says the floor is asphalt, and it looks to me that the wall is kicking out instead of the whole structure leaning. So I'm doubting that there are real footers involved.


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## beachguy005

You really need to clear out everything you have stored in there and then get a framing contractor out to inspect it and tell you what your issue actually is.  I think it's a foundation issue and it's foolish, and dangerous, to just attach a come along, trying to square it up. At least until you figure out the cause.


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## nealtw

beachguy005 said:


> You really need to clear out everything you have stored in there and then get a framing contractor out to inspect it and tell you what your issue actually is.  I think it's a foundation issue and it's foolish, and dangerous, to just attach a come along, trying to square it up. At least until you figure out the cause.



We are still waiting for measurements and levels.


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## biddlecom

Hello, I attempted to take measurements but it wasn't working out to well on my own.  However I did some investigative work and have some new photos.  If you look at photo 'tilt footing inside 1" and "tilt footing outside 1" that footing is tilting about 45 degrees.  The footing is the one under my awning.  Also if you look at photo 19 then you can see that both walls are tilting towards my house.  The rest of the photos show footings that are level.  It seem that I would need to fix the tilted footing and then use come-alongs to straighten it out and then reinforce the walls?


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## nealtw

The language of foundations is important. 
Footing are below gound level at the depth of frost to and bigger that the foundation or piller toi spread the load over a bigger footprint
Foundation is a solid wall made out of many different materials usually concrete
Pillers or posts are in the ground with or with out footing with beams across the top for the building to be built on.

The latter seems to be what you have and we need to know how stable that is now.
If you have access to one where yoiu can dig without breaking asphaut or concrete, dig down and see how deep it goes and if there is a footing.


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## beachguy005

I'll agree with nealtw.  I think when the building was constructed, all they did is lay timbers on the driveway and built a garage on top of them.  Over time, weight, rot and weather have caused the "foundation" to settle and move.  Causing the walls to separate.
In your area, there should of been a concrete footer dug and poured to below the frost line. PT sill plates bolted to the footer and the walls built on that. Preventing the walls from ever moving out or in.
I know in Maine, they're not much for permits and such, but I think this is the result.


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## biddlecom

If I was to dig down and then found out that it was not at least 4 feet deep then what would be the next step?  If it was 4 feet deep then what would be the next step?


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## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> If I was to dig down and then found out that it was not at least 4 feet deep then what would be the next step?  If it was 4 feet deep then what would be the next step?



If they are deep enough perhaps they could be added to to make them stay put and maybe replaced one at a time, really I don't know but usually we want to know as much as we can find out before we start pushing and pulling at things.

I think last year you had a cold spell that lasted longer than usuall. The longer the time the deeper it gets and may have got to what ever depth your pillers are.
The outside raised up in the frost pushing the otherside toward the house. But yes I am guessing.

You have to figure the cost of replacing the unit to see if you are willing to do a whole bunch of work on a garage that will still be very old when it is fixed, if it can be fixed


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## biddlecom

I can dig down and see on Saturday.  Like I said though it looks like all the pillars are straight and the building is sitting on them fine minus that one that has tilted.  If I was to dig that one out and reset it then straightened and reinforce the garage then it would last 5+ more years?  I do plan on tearing down and rebuilding I just don't have the funds at the moment and dont need nor want another lone right now.


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## nealtw

I did miss where you said only one leaned over. Does it learn sideways or back to front and does it look like that has happened in the near past?
If you drive a nail into the bottom plate half way and bend it straight up then you can hook your tape to that to measure, one person.


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## biddlecom

In the photo facing the garage the left front pillar is leaning at about a 45 degree angle to the left towards my house.  The rest of the pillars are fine.  After thinking about it I think this has been happening for a couple years now. 

When measuring am I just doing left wall to right wall on the floor and then on the top?  Just one place or like front middle back?


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## nealtw

Yes you want to know if it is just one spot or many that are different. We would hope the top is the same for the length of the garage but check a couple places anyway, you never know what you will find some people build funny.


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## Snoonyb

I have a whole different take on this.
Looking at the OH door picture, it appears that the garage is leaning away from the dwelling, as evidenced by the door itself.
It appears that the wall farthest from the house is rolling off the foundation and that motion is causing the structure to deflect in that direction and I would surmise that the garage foundation and the garage floor were not tied together.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> I have a whole different take on this.
> Looking at the OH door picture, it appears that the garage is leaning away from the dwelling, as evidenced by the door itself.
> It appears that the wall farthest from the house is rolling off the foundation and that motion is causing the structure to deflect in that direction and I would surmise that the garage foundation and the garage floor were not tied together.



Ya that's why we need measurements and levels


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## Snoonyb

What needs to happen is the dwelling side of the garage needs to be shored up, in and out, to stabilize it.

The floor needs to be cut for the placement of a new foundation under the wall away from the dwelling..

Prior to excavating for the foundation, remove the freeze boards from the exterior and secure the wall in place.

Excavate and pour the new foundation, support and move the deflected wall back in place.

Yes, I know it's an oversimplification.


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## bud16415

Snoonyb said:


> What needs to happen is the dwelling side of the garage needs to be shored up, in and out, to stabilize it.
> 
> The floor needs to be cut for the placement of a new foundation under the wall away from the dwelling..
> 
> Prior to excavating for the foundation, remove the freeze boards from the exterior and secure the wall in place.
> 
> Excavate and pour the new foundation, support and move the deflected wall back in place.
> 
> Yes, I know it's an oversimplification.




Along with that the building needs some additional strengthening to the structure to resist the type of movement that has happened. It needs good points to rest on and it needs to be somewhat self supporting not relying on the footings to hold it straight. IMO the failure happened because the bearing points moved by rolling over and the building itself had no rigidity and went right along for the ride. Who knows what came first did the wall push an inadequate footing out or did the footing fail and take the wall with it?


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## Snoonyb

Absolutely and if the OP wants to "expose" himself to the learning curve a step by step can be provided, but he'll need to learn the language.

When the building is back in place, plumb and square and even though the effect will be marginal, because of the width, adding shear panel, on the inside, to each side of the OH door will help.

The other end will be far easier and more effective.


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## biddlecom

I am just trying find the cheapest and safest route in fixing the garage.


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## bud16415

biddlecom said:


> I am just trying find the cheapest and safest route in fixing the garage.



     The old saying is something like (Fast, Good or Cheap. You can pick any two.) In your case you want cheapest and safest and that might be an example of pick one. You have set a time line of five years you want your repair to last and then you will be in a position to build something new and better. IMO I find if someone is looking five years down the road, that in five years there will most likely be one of two things happen. The repair will still be holding and the replacement will be pushed out to 6, 7, 8 years to forever. Or two in five years it will be a problem again and there will still be a budget problem and another stop gap will be put in place. Actually I think the problem you are having now was the result of a five year replacement plan back when the inadequate footings were done. 

I actually think you have a decent looking out building someone has done siding and the roof and all the material from one foot up Im guessing is solid. I had a garage built exactly the same at my old house. Someone got a hold of a bunch of timbers about 50 years ago and put up and outbuilding saying at the time Im 40 years old and if this thing lasts 30 years what do I care if it falls down when Im 70 or 80. Then someone younger came along and thought its not so bad put on some siding and a roof and paint it up and it will be good for another 20 years, etc. It looks to me like a problem started showing up 5 to 10 years ago and someone did the quick fix of jacking the corner up a little and then hand digging a little under the corner and drilling a hole thru the beam and pounding a piece of rebar in as a pin and then mixing a few bags of ready mix and putting a shallow pad under the corner and calling it a day. Winters came along and freeze thaws worked away at the corners combined with some more wood rot and it let go. 

You have a building that I would guess is going to cost at a minimum 20k to replace. Depending how much DIY you put in could be saved for a maybe 1 or 2k now. The trouble is you have another cold snowy winter around the corner and a month or two to get moving and do something or your spring project is going to be ripping the garage down. If you dont have any funding at this time or very limited you need to at least make it last the winter if you can and do not use it at all this winter getting everything out of it. 

The farm I know well lost one barn and half of another last winter with snow loads. They have been picking away at cleaning the mess up all summer. Those barns looked straight and solid going into last winter. Yours, you dont want to be up on this winter shoveling snow. 

We never know any ones skill set when they come for advice and what type of equipment you have etc. or how much you have to spend at this time.


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## biddlecom

Any suggestions for keeping it up through the winter?


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## bud16415

biddlecom said:


> Any suggestions for keeping it up through the winter?



 I would be looking at some diagonal bracing top to bottom forming an X several places down the length of the building. The forces they would see could be quite high so most likely they would be lag bolted or thru bolted in place. What does the building measure across and height inside up to the truss? Its anyones guess how much is enough. Seeing photos and being there are two different things when taking a guess.


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## nealtw

Bud cross bracing will keep it up for the winter but depending on what is wrong, it might be just as cheap to fix it with the same 2x4s. On the other hand if you have it cross braced and it stresses somemore you may be afraid to remove those braces to fix it in the spring.


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## biddlecom

From all the talk on this forum at this point it seems I need to secure it so it stays up this winter then just tear it down this coming spring.


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## bud16415

That&#8217;s one option. Depends on the type of person you are really. I know people that would take one look at it and tear it down in a heartbeat and build something new from scratch. I know others that respect old buildings and see value in saving them or making things better. Same way if I tore it down I would be salvaging all the materials as I went others the labor to do so outweighs the savings for them and they would bring in an excavator with a claw and have it in a dumpster in 2 hours. 

Only you know your abilities and how much the building is worth to you. As a side note have you talked to your insurance company about it?


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## Snoonyb

Before you make the decision to remove it, first verify that you can in fact replace it, in place.
Zoning rules and required separation may be such that you cannot place the new, as close as the existing, to the dwelling. Where repairing is allowed.

This is accomplished by preparing a dimensioned plot plan of the property with all of the existing building, except the garage, located, and asking the municipality where you can place a parking structure, it's min. size.


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## bud16415

nealtw said:


> Bud cross bracing will keep it up for the winter but depending on what is wrong, it might be just as cheap to fix it with the same 2x4s. On the other hand if you have it cross braced and it stresses somemore you may be afraid to remove those braces to fix it in the spring.



I would be afraid to try and fix it now for the same reasons. Yes I would be working to fix it this fall also.


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## biddlecom

bud16415 said:


> Thats one option. Depends on the type of person you are really. I know people that would take one look at it and tear it down in a heartbeat and build something new from scratch. I know others that respect old buildings and see value in saving them or making things better. Same way if I tore it down I would be salvaging all the materials as I went others the labor to do so outweighs the savings for them and they would bring in an excavator with a claw and have it in a dumpster in 2 hours.
> 
> Only you know your abilities and how much the building is worth to you. As a side note have you talked to your insurance company about it?





I don't think insurance companies cover so called "neglect".  Not saying I neglected it but that's probably what they would see it as.


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## beachguy005

Before you resign yourself to tearing it down in the spring, I'm going to again mention having a framing contractor in your area give you onsite advice rather than our online opinions.


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## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> I don't think insurance companies cover so called "neglect".  Not saying I neglected it but that's probably what they would see it as.



Timing is everything.
Had you initiated a claim in spring, citing extreme snow loads, excessive melt times and pictures would have been a plus, because they will not just take your word, but will continue to take your money.


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## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> I don't think insurance companies cover so called "neglect".  Not saying I neglected it but that's probably what they would see it as.



Here is another thought.
If your city and/or state has adopted the community development program, titled CDBG, you may be eligible for assistance within one or more of those programs.

You can inquire when you take your plot plan to the building dept.


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## nealtw

I have been wrong a few times but I havn't seen anything that isn't fixable in a day or two for a couple people with a plan and maybe 2 or 3 hundred dollars.


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## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> I have been wrong a few times but I havn't seen anything that isn't fixable in a day or two for a couple people with a plan and maybe 2 or 3 hundred dollars.



 Temporarily, yes.
However in this case, permanently, that won't pay for the material.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> Temporarily, yes.
> However in this case, permanently, that won't pay for the material.



What materials you talk about that are so expensive?


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## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> What materials you talk about that are so expensive?



Permanently;What needs to happen is the dwelling side of the garage needs to be shored up, in and out, to stabilize it.

The floor needs to be cut for the placement of a new foundation under the wall away from the dwelling..

Prior to excavating for the foundation, remove the freeze boards from the exterior and secure the wall in place.

Excavate and pour the new foundation, support and move the deflected wall back in place.

Unless you have a secret you an't shar-in?


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> Unless you have a secret you an't shar-in?



I will and have shared my secret.
Ask relevant questions and get the answers.

All we know right now, it it is leaning and one column has moved.

We do not know if that column caused any problem.
We do not know if all the columns are still in line with each other and level with each other.
We do not know if if the width of the ceiling is the same measurements as the width at the base.
We do know the condition of the sill beams and how much they have settled or rotted
It seems you have some of these answers, what is your secret.


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## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> I will and have shared my secret.
> Ask relevant questions and get the answers.
> 
> All we know right now, it it is leaning and one column has moved.
> 
> We do not know if that column caused any problem.
> We do not know if all the columns are still in line with each other and level with each other.
> We do not know if if the width of the ceiling is the same measurements as the width at the base.
> We do know the condition of the sill beams and how much they have settled or rotted
> It seems you have some of these answers, what is your secret.



"All we know right now, it it is leaning and one column has moved.

We do not know if that column caused any problem.
We do not know if all the columns are still in line with each other and level with each other.
We do not know if if the width of the ceiling is the same measurements as the width at the base."

Pictures 1,3 &4 answer these for me.

35yrs. experience.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> "All we know right now, it it is leaning and one column has moved.
> 
> We do not know if that column caused any problem.
> We do not know if all the columns are still in line with each other and level with each other.
> We do not know if if the width of the ceiling is the same measurements as the width at the base."
> 
> Pictures 1,3 &4 answer these for me.
> 
> 35yrs. experience.



Well sir, you may be right, but I will wait for the information requested before I throw in the towel.
With all that experience you should be able to at least come up with a way to make it stable and usable for the winter on a budget. I know I can with my pittance of experience.


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## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> Well sir, you may be right, but I will wait for the information requested before I throw in the towel.
> With all that experience you should be able to at least come up with a way to make it stable and usable for the winter on a budget. I know I can with my pittance of experience.



Stable and usable is i man, less than 6hrs. and less than $100.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> Stable and usable is i man, less than 6hrs. and less than $100.



Now, that's a better answer and when the OP says that is what he wants to do , we can talk about it.

In the mean time I will still wait for the answers so maybe it can be fixed before winter.


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## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> Now, that's a better answer and when the OP says that is what he wants to do , we can talk about it.
> 
> In the mean time I will still wait for the answers so maybe it can be fixed before winter.



I consider it a jack-leg-laborer stop gap.

Why not, is an excuse.


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## biddlecom

Im going to get some measurements and do a little more "digging" to see if I can find anymore info for you gentlemen tomorrow.  Im also going to take a look at the roof and see whats going on up there cause it seems that might be part of the issue.


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## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> Im going to get some measurements and do a little more "digging" to see if I can find anymore info for you gentlemen tomorrow.  Im also going to take a look at the roof and see whats going on up there cause it seems that might be part of the issue.



While you are assembling the requested dimension, would you be so kind too drop a plum-bob at the front corner of the garage closest to the dwelling, and again at the corner of that wall where it turns 90 degrees, and include those measurements as well.

If you do not have a plum-bob, you can use a chalkline or fashion one with a string and a claw hammer.


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## biddlecom

Here are some photos.  These are mostly showing the roof and how its bowing.  Also, you can see in pic 10 that, that is a good place for snow to settle.  I admit I did not keep up with roof racking this year.  Also you can tell that the roof has a very low pitch.


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## biddlecom

Also in these ones you can see the roof is bowing in a couple spots.


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## biddlecom

Measurements Requested

Front Bottom 148" and Front Top 142"
Middle Bottom 144" and Middle Top 143"
Back Bottom 144" and Back Top 142"

Plum-Bob: Front 103" and Back 101"

I dont promise these measurements are 100% accurate.

Also in these photos you can see better how the building was constructed.  It looks as thought they did some odd things to make some stronger bracing.

So, I was thinking about it last night and I would hate to tear this building down.  The wood on it is solid and probably cost a lot as well.  Tell me if this idea makes sense.  What If I was to brace it this winter so it doesn't get worse and then once spring hits I can completely take the roof off and then fix the walls and some foundation work and then rebuild a brand new roof with a steeper pitch.  Also I would cover that back garage door with a wall and do some interior reinforcing?  That seems like a good step price wise and will probably make the garage last for the life of the home.  Let me know your thoughts gentlemen.


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## Snoonyb

Using a plum-bob from the top outside corner, to the ground, will result in a dimension registered in less than 12", which will indicate the amount that that corner has deflected out of plum.

Your plan to restructure the roof will bring the structure in line with your areas weather conditions.


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## biddlecom

Snoonyb said:


> Using a plum-bob from the top outside corner, to the ground, will result in a dimension registered in less than 12", which will indicate the amount that that corner has deflected out of plum.
> 
> Your plan to restructure the roof will bring the structure in line with your areas weather conditions.



I did do the plum bob (measurements above).  You want me to do it on the outside rather than the inside?


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## Snoonyb

If you would please.
The line suspending the plum-bob is held against the buinding at the top of the wall, The plum-bob suspends vertically to just above the ground. When the motion stops, lower it to the ground and measure the distance from the point where it touches the ground to the building, making any adjustments necessary to compensate indentations so that you are measuring to relatively the same building elements.


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## biddlecom

Snoonyb said:


> If you would please.
> The line suspending the plum-bob is held against the buinding at the top of the wall, The plum-bob suspends vertically to just above the ground. When the motion stops, lower it to the ground and measure the distance from the point where it touches the ground to the building, making any adjustments necessary to compensate indentations so that you are measuring to relatively the same building elements.



I think I understand what your saying now.  The issue is that wall is not tilting to the left toward the house because of my awning and the back corner isnt tilting because of the extension room.  So when im place the string it stays semi flush with the wall.  If im wrong I do apologize.  Im not familiar with this stuff.


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## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> I think I understand what your saying now.  The issue is that wall is not tilting to the left toward the house because of my awning and the back corner isnt tilting because of the extension room.  So when im place the string it stays semi flush with the wall.  If im wrong I do apologize.  Im not familiar with this stuff.



Ah-ha, that was my concern given the #2 of the original pictures which shows the two roofs intersecting.
I suspect that were you to use a strait 2x4 8' and a 6' level at the same corner, you would find that there is near 1/2" to 1" out, which would correspond with the deflection indicated at the lower left hand corner of the garage door in the #3 and #4 pictures.

To relieve the strain and possible damage to the awning roof from potential snow loads, I would screw a 2x cleat to both the dwelling and the garage, corresponding with the top plate of the garage wall and install a brace 1/2" or so longer than the distance between them, until you can accomplish the repair permanently.

Be sure and caulk the top of the dwelling cleat, to prevent water intrusion.


----------



## nealtw

When some one added the back half they removed the back wall of the original and that was likely what started the problem.
I like the idea of a steeper roof but in reality  the cost of building new walls would be the least of the expence. So if you plan on replacing the roof  I would just knock it down and start over.
I understand that a large expence for new garage may not fit with the older house and may not add any value to the property so that is a big consideration.
I think an effort should be made to save the structure, which would be cheap for materials but labour extensive and still might not do the job, there are no garrentees.
I had much the same thought as Snoonyb for bracing against the house, but then we don't know what the loads are or could be and we would hate to do dammage to the house if it couldn't take any more side loading.
As the repairs would be time consuming , I agree it should be left for spring.
Before I suggest stableizing for the winter which might envolve some loss of use, what do you use it for ? I see the bike and alot of storage, do you open those doors in the winter?


----------



## Snoonyb

The OP needs to pay a visit to the local building authority to determine his alternatives.

Many municipalities have restrictions regarding repairing structures, which demand that a portion of the existing building remain, thereby justifying the "repair", just the foundation alone is not considered sufficient justification.

When the structure has been removed, they can demand the compliance with the current zoning ordinance.

As previously discussed, a visit to the building authority will clear that up.


----------



## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> When some one added the back half they removed the back wall of the original and that was likely what started the problem.
> I like the idea of a steeper roof but in reality  the cost of building new walls would be the least of the expence. So if you plan on replacing the roof  I would just knock it down and start over.
> I understand that a large expence for new garage may not fit with the older house and may not add any value to the property so that is a big consideration.
> I think an effort should be made to save the structure, which would be cheap for materials but labour extensive and still might not do the job, there are no garrentees.
> I had much the same thought as Snoonyb for bracing against the house, but then we don't know what the loads are or could be and we would hate to do dammage to the house if it couldn't take any more side loading.
> As the repairs would be time consuming , I agree it should be left for spring.
> Before I suggest stableizing for the winter which might envolve some loss of use, what do you use it for ? I see the bike and alot of storage, do you open those doors in the winter?




The garage is used for storage of our 2 vehicles and 1 bike.  I can live without my vehicle in there over winter but my wife can not.  Also as for building codes I remember looking into it a few years ago and if I tear and rebuild it wouldn't even be worth it because I would have to push over to far.  As of right now im only a foot away from my neighbors line.  I dont mind investing my time into this and know someone who is very good with this stuff.  I also dont mind putting a few thousand into it.  Im just trying to figure out the best route to go once spring hits.


----------



## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> The garage is used for storage of our 2 vehicles and 1 bike.  I can live without my vehicle in there over winter but my wife can not. I remember looking into it a few years ago and if I tear and rebuild it wouldn't even be worth it because I would have to push over to far. I dont mind investing my time into this and know someone who is very good with this stuff.



Keep in mind the municipalities have the legal right to, and often do, amend building and zoning ordinances twice a year, and as you've discovered repair will fit your needs.

Were I you, this would be my course of action.

Beside separating the garage from the awning roof and you reduce the pressure on the dwelling by lengthening the cleat on the dwelling to 4 or 6 so you are spreading the load.

The door in pictures 3 &4 does not appear usable , so Im assuming you have another vehicle access and wont address that now.

On the right side of the garage where the foundation is beginning to roll, drive 5, 36 steel stakes 24 into the ground, 4oc., 1-1/2 away from the garage wall, place 1 or 2 2x6s too arrest further deflection from snow load. the 2x6s can be used for rafters when you restructure the roof.

In the spring one of the first thing is to remove the roofing and roof structure which will make the walls easier to deal with. You can save as much of the sheating as you can for reuse, keeping in mind the nominal thickness of the old and new.


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> The garage is used for storage of our 2 vehicles and 1 bike.  I can live without my vehicle in there over winter but my wife can not.  Also as for building codes I remember looking into it a few years ago and if I tear and rebuild it wouldn't even be worth it because I would have to push over to far.  As of right now im only a foot away from my neighbors line.  I dont mind investing my time into this and know someone who is very good with this stuff.  I also dont mind putting a few thousand into it.  Im just trying to figure out the best route to go once spring hits.



So you have every reason to save this structure and unless you are expecting winter next week, let's get to work.


----------



## biddlecom

I would like to get it stable for this coming winter and then start the roof rebuild and reset this spring.


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## nealtw

Supplies needed;
!2 -14 ft 2x4s
5 sheets of 1/2" plywood or 7/16 OSB whichever is cheaper
5 lbs 3" common nails, with heads
5 lbs 3" double head nails
ten pounds 2 1/2 inch screws with a few driver bits that fit the screws
skill saw
A drill that will drive screws
A heavier than normal hammer, 22 ounce framming hammer
2 or 4 ft level
string level
chaulk line
One very straight 8 ft 2x4


----------



## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> Supplies needed;
> !2 -14 ft 2x4s
> 5 sheets of 1/2" plywood or 7/16 OSB whichever is cheaper
> 5 lbs 3" common nails, with heads
> 5 lbs 3" double head nails
> ten pounds 2 1/2 inch screws with a few driver bits that fit the screws
> skill saw
> A drill that will drive screws
> A heavier than normal hammer, 22 ounce framming hammer
> 2 or 4 ft level
> string level
> chaulk line
> One very straight 8 ft 2x4



I can get all of that.  What would be the plan once I acquire all the material?


----------



## nealtw

The spring brace that I touched on earlier, I will lay out more detail, I'm on my way out soon. so later.


----------



## nealtw

Do trhe garage doors have those dangerous springs or just manual lift?


----------



## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> I would like to get it stable for this coming winter and then start the roof rebuild and reset this spring.



Asked and answered.


----------



## bud16415

I don&#8217;t know what Neal&#8217;s plan is but if you are going shopping, there are screws and then there are screws. IMHO anything that can be nailed together can be screwed together and when it comes time to take it apart screws work a lot better. The type of screws you want are the type sold for building decks the good ones have a square or a star to drive the screw. The type I like are called guard dogs and they look like a Philips head but are not. They drive off both a square and a star at the same time with a special bit. Driving these good size screws takes a good quality drill motor. With screws you don&#8217;t need the double headed nails because you won&#8217;t need to buy a 4&#8217; crowbar come spring. I would suggest 3&#8221; and  4&#8221; deck screws.


----------



## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> Do trhe garage doors have those dangerous springs or just manual lift?



They have those 3 footish springs


----------



## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> They have those 3 footish springs



If it is you're intent to use the door pictured, it is a fairly simple process to correct and stabalise the support structure until spring when you can address a formal rebuild.


----------



## biddlecom

Snoonyb said:


> If it is you're intent to use the door pictured, it is a fairly simple process to correct and stabalise the support structure until spring when you can address a formal rebuild.



I will be filling in the back garage door.  I don't want to do that until I straighten the walls.  So I plan on stabilizing it this winter then in spring I would like to take the roof down, straighten the walls, fix the foundation then put a new roof on and reinforce the walls.


----------



## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> I will be filling in the back garage door.  I don't want to do that until I straighten the walls.



So, do you intend to use one or both doors for access, or is the door pictured going to be the primary access?


----------



## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> I dont know what Neals plan is but if you are going shopping, there are screws and then there are screws. IMHO anything that can be nailed together can be screwed together and when it comes time to take it apart screws work a lot better. The type of screws you want are the type sold for building decks the good ones have a square or a star to drive the screw. The type I like are called guard dogs and they look like a Philips head but are not. They drive off both a square and a star at the same time with a special bit. Driving these good size screws takes a good quality drill motor. With screws you dont need the double headed nails because you wont need to buy a 4 crowbar come spring. I would suggest 3 and  4 deck screws.



Bud : the deck screws we use are brittle and don't have the sheer strength of a nail, can you check that out and make sure they are equivalent.


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> They have those 3 footish springs



The door and the hardware will be in the way. The torsion springs at the top are dangerous to work with and I have no experence with the stretch type on the side. Unless youu want to remove the siding off the front instead.


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> The door and the hardware will be in the way. The torsion springs at the top are dangerous to work with and I have no experence with the stretch type on the side. Unless youu want to remove the siding off the front instead.



There is absolutely no need to remove any siding to make the door pictured functional, and the door is a standard overhead door with typical jamb mounted hardware using 2 or 4 #6 or #7 springs.


----------



## nealtw

Because we don't know how well the srtructure is holding up, I will want some extra bracing, temperary.A 2x4 from bottom plate to bottom plate on apposing wall and the same at the top.
See the video on tiying a string line from bottom plate to bottom plate.Raise the string on the nail 1 inch on both ends and hang your string level in the middle.
Raise and lower the string on the nails so you can measure how different they are.
If the two plates are level, then you can push the one side until it is plumb. Check that with a straight edge touching top and bottom plates only and  a level against that.
If the plates are not level, that is another problem that will need to be dealt with a little later but then plumb is not what we will go for.
So if they are not level we will go for square intsead of plumb. We will be using the 3,4,5 method Or in this case 6,8,10.
You measure from the frist stud on the front wall along the top plate 8 ft, be carefull, then measure down from the same spot 6 ft on the stud. the measurement between  the 8 ft mark and the 6 ft mark will be 10 ft when it is square.
All of this has to be understude before going ahead so questions please.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACcDtyMwvyc[/ame]


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> Because we don't know how well the srtructure is holding up, I will want some extra bracing, temperary.A 2x4 from bottom plate to bottom plate on apposing wall and the same at the top.
> See the video on tiying a string line from bottom plate to bottom plate.Raise the string on the nail 1 inch on both ends and hang your string level in the middle.
> Raise and lower the string on the nails so you can measure how different they are.
> If the two plates are level, then you can push the one side until it is plumb. Check that with a straight edge touching top and bottom plates only and  a level against that.
> If the plates are not level, that is another problem that will need to be dealt with a little later but then plumb is not what we will go for.
> So if they are not level we will go for square intsead of plumb. We will be using the 3,4,5 method Or in this case 6,8,10.
> You measure from the frist stud on the front wall along the top plate 8 ft, be carefull, then measure down from the same spot 6 ft on the stud. the measurement between  the 8 ft mark and the 6 ft mark will be 10 ft when it is square.
> All of this has to be understude before going ahead so questions please.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACcDtyMwvyc



The methods you are quoting are archaic, unnecessarily time consuming and what the OP has stated were his intent in addressing in the spring.

So lets go back to what you said, and wanted to address earlier;
"I have been wrong a few times but I havn't seen anything that isn't fixable in a day or two for a couple people with a plan and maybe 2 or 3 hundred dollars.

Not as described.

With all that experience you should be able to at least come up with a way to make it stable and usable for the winter on a budget.

Asked and answered as far as the structure goes. All that remains is the door to achieve stable and usable.

I know I can with my pittance of experience.

Remember, stable and usable.

The door and the hardware will be in the way.

How then will the door be usable.

The torsion springs at the top are dangerous to work with and I have no experence with the stretch type on the side. Unless youu want to remove the siding off the front instead.

Addressed.

Remember, 1 man and near $100, stable and usable.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> The methods you are quoting are archaic, unnecessarily time consuming and what the OP has stated were his intent in addressing in the spring.
> 
> So lets go back to what you said, and wanted to address earlier;
> "I have been wrong a few times but I havn't seen anything that isn't fixable in a day or two for a couple people with a plan and maybe 2 or 3 hundred dollars.
> 
> Not as described.
> 
> With all that experience you should be able to at least come up with a way to make it stable and usable for the winter on a budget.
> 
> Asked and answered as far as the structure goes. All that remains is the door to achieve stable and usable.
> 
> I know I can with my pittance of experience.
> 
> Remember, stable and usable.
> 
> The door and the hardware will be in the way.
> 
> How then will the door be usable.
> 
> The torsion springs at the top are dangerous to work with and I have no experence with the stretch type on the side. Unless youu want to remove the siding off the front instead.
> 
> Addressed.
> 
> Remember, 1 man and near $100, stable and usable.



The door will go back up when the work is done
You said in your thirty five years you have never takled anything like this with success. In the spring he wants to rip the roof off and straighten and plumb the walls, I can't immagine doing that with out the roof installed and as it wqill take the same work in the spring as it would now and it will only take a few days to strighten this thing up, what's the point of leaving it.

Enough with the nonsence, ask questions or add advice.


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> The door will go back up when the work is done"
> 
> If you are referring to the door pictured, there is no reason that it would ever have to be, taken down.
> 
> "You said in your thirty five years you have never takled anything like this with success."
> 
> You are confused because I have never said that.
> 
> "In the spring he wants to rip the roof off"
> 
> Actually the OP is contemplating removing the roof and reframing it with a steeper pitch to address the obvious effects loading has had on the existing.
> 
> "and straighten and plumb the walls"
> 
> Which is far easier to accomplish without the roof load, especially since the foundation has rolled and will need to be excavated and replaced along almost its entire length.
> 
> "I can't immagine doing that with out the roof installed and as it wqill take the same work in the spring as it would now"
> 
> Do you remember when the OP posted that he knows someone in the area who is familiar with this type of repairs and that he would approach him in the spring?
> 
> "and it will only take a few days to strighten this thing up, what's the point of leaving it."
> 
> You are dreaming if you think you can roll a displaced foundation back in place.
> 
> "Enough with the nonsence, ask questions or add advice.



The only question I have, I've asked, and am awaiting an answer, and will then advise the OP on the method to stabilize the pictured garage door for use, which is all that remains to get him through the winter.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> The only question I have, I've asked, and am awaiting an answer, and will then advise the OP on the method to stabilize the pictured garage door for use, which is all that remains to get him through the winter.



After pushing the wall back in place the wall that the door is in it will be sheeted as we do for earthquakes and it will stay in place.
Once the OP  sees how easy that works he should be able to fix the whole garage in one week end.


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> After pushing the wall back in place the wall that the door is in it will be sheeted as we do for earthquakes and it will stay in place.
> Once the OP  sees how easy that works he should be able to fix the whole garage in one week end.



You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.


----------



## biddlecom

I feel this is getting over complicated.  I do appreciate everyones help and input but I feel the simpler solution is in most cases the better one.  

Before the snow falls:
I need to do simple bracing in order to keep it where it is

In Spring:
	-Take the roof off
        - fix the foundation	
        -Straighten the walls
	- put a new roof on
	-cover the back garage door and put a small door in
	-reinforce the garage	

The reason I want to do it like this is because the help I have is very very limited before spring.  Once spring hits I will have knowledgeable people helping with the major parts.

The other reason is because Im in the middle of home renovations this winter.  So if I can brace the garage for the winter (fast and easy) I can focus on getting home renovations done this winter then give 100% focus on the garage in the spring.

So, if someone can help me with the best route to brace my garage for winter and then maybe tips for how to pull a roof off, straighten wall, and redo foundation and reinforcement tips for spring that would be great.  

Again everyone who has been helping seems very knowledgeable and I appreciate all the help.  I have been learning a lot and have been enjoying the conversations and brainstorming.


----------



## nealtw

build 2 temperary walls between the house and the garage. And at the back cross brace it like Bud suggested earlier.


----------



## biddlecom

Im not 100% sure what is meant by building temp walls on both sides.  Couldnt I just do the cross brace on the back door.  Stake the right side (snoony suggestion) and then maybe set 2x4 up like in the drawing?


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## nealtw

The angled brace between the house and garage should work but attachement at the top of the garage will be key I would do that in two places.


----------



## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> I feel this is getting over complicated.  I do appreciate everyones help and input but I feel the simpler solution is in most cases the better one.
> 
> Before the snow falls:
> I need to do simple bracing in order to keep it where it is



What Ive suggested will arrest the motion.
What you do, is up to you.

Regarding repairing the right side of the garage overhead door to functional operation, this would be my course of action;
1. With the door in the closed position, on the driveway, mark the edge and both  faces using chalk or masking tape or your choice of marker. 
2. On the left side of the door, measure the distance from the door to the face of the door trim.
3. Open and raise the door to its fully open position and using a 2x to support it in this position.
4. Disconnect the spring/s from the right side of the door as well as any safety devices.
5. Remove the wood trim from the exterior right side of the door.
6. Remove the nails holding the siding and sheating to the 2x king stud from the bottom to the height of the door header.
7. Cut the nails securing the 2x king stud and the 2x door jamb to the sil.
8. Set an L bracket, similar to those used for securing stair treds, with
    drive anchors, 1/4 back from the previously marked door edge.
9. Lever the 2x king stud and door jamb assembly over onto the L bracket
    and secure in place with screws, keeping in mind the previously measured
    reveal, in step 2.
10. Install a gusseted L bracket on the inside of the door jamb at its
     bottom, as additional support, secured to the floor with drive anchors.
11. Install a block under the king stud and a 2x cleat from the door jamb 2x
     and attached to the sil.
12. Reinstall the door spring/s and safety devices.
13. Remove the 2x supporting the door and check for proper operation.
14. Screw a 16 wide piece of plywood to the outside as a measure of
     weather proofing. 

What I've offered, is what I would do to stabilize the structure in place as well as allow it to be usable.

What you do, is up to you.


----------



## bud16415

nealtw said:


> Bud : the deck screws we use are brittle and don't have the sheer strength of a nail, can you check that out and make sure they are equivalent.



In general I can find information both ways in favor of nails and in favor of screws. Most of the buildings in the world were built with nails and code is all based around nails and nail spacing for the most part. Inspectors will sometimes not pass screws without a report saying they are adequate. 

Basically comparing similar size nails and screws the nails are about 20% to 30% better in shear where on pullout the screws are close to twice as good. in many cases nails will bend better than screws so if a nail starts to fail it will be visible where a screw could go suddenly. 

I would go with what code requires unless I wasnt getting code involved. 

For me a tight joint that wont promote movement is better than one that with time has movement. Once there is any movement in a joint there is a gap and a gap provides leverage and increases forces. I like screws and the reason I like them is having torn down as many things as I have built I can say without a doubt screws dont want to let go without a fight. The only real way to take a screwed joint apart is with unscrewing the screws. Nails you can always Jimmy apart. 

In my case Im always accused of using way too many screws. So if a joint I was building called for 4 nails I would most likely be putting in 6 screws. 

My free standing deck with the hot tub on it I screwed all together. It is free to move with the frost and after a couple winters is still real tight when it moves back in the spring. With nails I think I would have had more problems. 

There is testing that goes both ways and even more people advertising that they build with screws as if it were better I think its a personal choice for the most part. I know your buddy Mike Holmes is also big on screws.


----------



## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> Im not 100% sure what is meant by building temp walls on both sides.  Couldnt I just do the cross brace on the back door.  Stake the right side (snoony suggestion) and then maybe set 2x4 up like in the drawing?



The brace on the left side is an alternative, however, on the right side would encroach upon your neighbors property, so you should verify that being acceptable to them, before proceeding.

Also, it does nothing to arrest the ongoing foundation displacement.


----------



## biddlecom

Also said:
			
		

> The foundation is going to be redone in the summer.
> 
> As for the right side brace.  Would I even need one?  the building isnt leaning that way and ill have the stakes on that side.  Also wouldnt an x shaped brace on the back garage door be enough?


----------



## bud16415

Can I ask a dumb question? 

Before any of this happened as far back as you can remember how much space was there between the garage and the awning it is now resting on?


----------



## biddlecom

bud16415 said:


> Can I ask a dumb question?
> 
> Before any of this happened as far back as you can remember how much space was there between the garage and the awning it is now resting on?



I cant remember but maybe a few inches.  now its bending the awning.


----------



## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> The foundation is going to be redone in the summer.
> 
> As for the right side brace.  Would I even need one?  the building isnt leaning that way and ill have the stakes on that side.  Also wouldnt an x shaped brace on the back garage door be enough?



The perspective of right and left, is viewed from the outside looking at the door in pictures 3&4.

You can either install the cleat or the angle brace on the left side to hold the garage away from its intersection with the house porch awning, as a simple method of reducing the possibility of damage.

If you feel more reassured by installing an "X" brace at the back entrance, that go ahead. Part of the reason that the deflection is less apparent at that end, is the length of the wall opposing and the shear value developed by that length.

Which is absent at the door end pictured.


----------



## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> I cant remember but maybe a few inches.  now its bending the awning.



One of the most common and often employed methods of "racking" a building or framing is to use a diagonally place 2x, in this case, from bottom left too upper right. The upper is placed near the top of a stud and pulled down. You may need 2 or 3 and adjust them as necessary, to achieve the separation of the garage roof and the porch awning.

When you have achieved separation install a 2x cleat to the garage and install your angle braces, BEFORE removing your racking devices.


----------



## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> In general I can find information both ways in favor of nails and in favor of screws. Most of the buildings in the world were built with nails and code is all based around nails and nail spacing for the most part. Inspectors will sometimes not pass screws without a report saying they are adequate.
> 
> Basically comparing similar size nails and screws the nails are about 20% to 30% better in shear where on pullout the screws are close to twice as good. in many cases nails will bend better than screws so if a nail starts to fail it will be visible where a screw could go suddenly.
> 
> I would go with what code requires unless I wasnt getting code involved.
> 
> For me a tight joint that wont promote movement is better than one that with time has movement. Once there is any movement in a joint there is a gap and a gap provides leverage and increases forces. I like screws and the reason I like them is having torn down as many things as I have built I can say without a doubt screws dont want to let go without a fight. The only real way to take a screwed joint apart is with unscrewing the screws. Nails you can always Jimmy apart.
> 
> In my case Im always accused of using way too many screws. So if a joint I was building called for 4 nails I would most likely be putting in 6 screws.
> 
> My free standing deck with the hot tub on it I screwed all together. It is free to move with the frost and after a couple winters is still real tight when it moves back in the spring. With nails I think I would have had more problems.
> 
> There is testing that goes both ways and even more people advertising that they build with screws as if it were better I think its a personal choice for the most part. I know your buddy Mike Holmes is also big on screws.



We square up walls on the floor and sheet them, so they shoulod stand up nice and plumb, key word there is should sometimes with humps and bumps in the floor anything is possible. Long walls genelally find an average and will sit plumb but short walls that are  like 4 or 5 feet long, you can easiily move top over 3/4 inch out of square to get plumb. All that pushing is hard on the nails and I have not tried screws, but if you ever have just try to bend a screw over it will break at the first hit so I wouldn't trust it.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> One of the most common and often employed methods of "racking" a building or framing is to use a diagonally place 2x, in this case, from bottom left too upper right. The upper is placed near the top of a stud and pulled down. You may need 2 or 3 and adjust them as necessary, to achieve the separation of the garage roof and the porch awning.
> 
> When you have achieved separation install a 2x cleat to the garage and install your angle braces, BEFORE removing your racking devices.



So you have jammed your 2x4 lower on the appossing wall , what if you can't trust that wall to not move, as we don't know how firm the foundation post is..

That is why I said to join the two walls with a 2x4 before stressing anything.
But you are right about the method, but you don't just pull it down on the high end. You go to the center and push it down for all your worth and have a friend nail the high side in place. Now just pull the 2x4 up to straight and you have likely moved everything an inch or most of an inch.
I still would not trust the door way to take that stress so I would nail a 2x4 to the bottom plate and lay out across the garage on the floor and nail that cross brace to the other end to that one. So the temp fix is much the same as the perminant fix. The door would only have to be removed to install the plywood which will hold it in place.


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> So you have jammed your 2x4 lower on the appossing wall , what if you can't trust that wall to not move, as we don't know how firm the foundation post is..
> 
> That is why I said to join the two walls with a 2x4 before stressing anything



Thats a good point.
When I rack a building, it is a leveraged, careful, slow, deliberate look and listen process and in this instance the object is only to achieve sufficient separation to clear the roof away from the porch awning, and if need be I'll attach a full length 2x on the face of the studs I'm racking against, if the conditions dictate.


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> I feel this is getting over complicated.  I do appreciate everyone&#8217;s help and input but I feel the simpler solution is in most cases the better one.
> 
> Before the snow falls:
> I need to do simple bracing in order to keep it where it is
> 
> In Spring:
> -Take the roof off
> - fix the foundation
> -Straighten the walls
> - put a new roof on
> -cover the back garage door and put a small door in
> -reinforce the garage
> 
> The reason I want to do it like this is because the help I have is very very limited before spring.  Once spring hits I will have knowledgeable people helping with the major parts.
> 
> The other reason is because Im in the middle of home renovations this winter.  So if I can brace the garage for the winter (fast and easy) I can focus on getting home renovations done this winter then give 100% focus on the garage in the spring.
> 
> So, if someone can help me with the best route to brace my garage for winter and then maybe tips for how to pull a roof off, straighten wall, and redo foundation and reinforcement tips for spring that would be great.
> 
> Again everyone who has been helping seems very knowledgeable and I appreciate all the help.  I have been learning a lot and have been enjoying the conversations and brainstorming.



For replacing the roof, I would want to use the roof for stablity for fixing the walls.
First you strighten it up to reasonable ans stabilize the front and back wall.
Cross brace the crap out it and with a temp wall lift one side a few inches,
Repair the foundation as required and replace the bottom beams and set it back down, straighten the bottom of the wall and bolt it down.
Move the temp wall to the other side and do the same for the foundation and bottom beams and drop it down, straighten the bottom and bolt it down. Now with the cross bracing still there remove the roof, straighten the top of both walls replace the roof with engineered trusses


----------



## biddlecom

Should I use a poll jack (?) to jack the left side to get the garage of my awning and then place the 2x4 and cleats then release the jack?


----------



## biddlecom

Also, if I jack or use come along to get the garage off the awning should I use a 4x4 rather than a 2x4?


----------



## bud16415

Just wanted to throw out an idea to the group here. What if the repair was done pole barn style. Jack the corner or side up and support with poles or an inner temp wall. The bottom plate is shot most likely so dig some holes 4&#8217; deep and drop some PT 6x6 poles in the wall under the top plate. Something could then be done with a band board running around the bottom to catch the studs.


----------



## bud16415

nealtw said:


> We square up walls on the floor and sheet them, so they shoulod stand up nice and plumb, key word there is should sometimes with humps and bumps in the floor anything is possible. Long walls genelally find an average and will sit plumb but short walls that are  like 4 or 5 feet long, you can easiily move top over 3/4 inch out of square to get plumb. All that pushing is hard on the nails and I have not tried screws, but if you ever have just try to bend a screw over it will break at the first hit so I wouldn't trust it.



Neal as to screws. The black cheap screws are quite hard and brittle and will snap if you bend them over. The green guard dog screws are just tough but would be pretty hard to break they will bend. Now if you clinched them like you do a nail I think they would break but by the time anything gets bent that far you have more troubles than the fastener.


----------



## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> Should I use a poll jack (?) to jack the left side to get the garage of my awning and then place the 2x4 and cleats then release the jack?



Using a poll jack at the same angle as the eventual braces will primarily have the affect of lifting the wall off the foundation, because of the angel presented.

Using 2x on the inside of the garage will better address correcting the angular displacement.

The following is another method I've used, however it has the potential of causing interior cracking in the dwelling.
I would first install the 2x cleats on both the dwelling and the garage, to spread the load over several stud bays.

Then use a small hydraulic jack and a short length of 4x4, horizontally.


----------



## biddlecom

Snoonyb said:


> Using a poll jack at the same angle as the eventual braces will primarily have the affect of lifting the wall off the foundation, because of the angel presented.
> 
> Using 2x on the inside of the garage will better address correcting the angular displacement.
> 
> The following is another method I've used, however it has the potential of causing interior cracking in the dwelling.
> I would first install the 2x cleats on both the dwelling and the garage, to spread the load over several stud bays.
> 
> Then use a small hydraulic jack and a short length of 4x4, horizontally.



What about a comealong?


----------



## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> What about a comealong?



The use of a come-along would need to anchored outside of the bottom of the right wall, and I would employ more than a single device.

The anchoring could be accomplished by attaching to a length of 4x4 even with the right wall sil, so that you are pulling against a wider area of wall, increasing the effectiveness.

However you proceed, keep in mind the eventual reuse of materials purchased, eliminating waste.


----------



## biddlecom

Okay, so this is my plan for before winter.

Put 10-36&#8221; rebar on the right side of the building to keep the wall from moving further out.  Then I will attach a come along to the upper left wall and to the bottom right wall.  I will pull it just enough to get the garage off the awning.  At that point I will attach the bracing to the left wall foundation of my house and the left wall eve of the garage.  Then I will release the come along and then do bracing on the back garage door.

I think that is simple enough for me to do myself and enough to hold it so it doesnt get worse over winter.


----------



## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> Okay, so this is my plan for before winter.
> 
> Put 10-36 rebar on the right side of the building to keep the wall from moving further out.  Then I will attach a come along to the upper left wall and to the bottom right wall.  I will pull it just enough to get the garage off the awning.  At that point I will attach the bracing to the left wall foundation of my house and the left wall eve of the garage.  Then I will release the come along and then do bracing on the back garage door.
> 
> I think that is simple enough for me to do myself and enough to hold it so it doesnt get worse over winter.



From the pictures of the roof it appears that the left wall of the garage is a gable end and would suggest that the braces installed there end at a cleat at the wall top plate which will result in a sharper and more effective resistance, than at the gable end eves.

Also, and as an after thought, when you gradually release the come-along/s, there will be some level of rebounding, so I would install the cleats and braces I had originally suggested, since the angle bracing will mitigate the potential for any affects to the dwelling.


----------



## biddlecom

Well, The garage reinforcing went well and I'm on track to fix it this spring.  Thank you everyone for your help.


----------



## slownsteady

Please post some pics of the fix. How far did you have to move things?


----------



## biddlecom

Okay the garage held up during the winter and now its time to figure out what to do next.  I apologize for not sending picks, there was just not much to show.

So, the reason the garage is failing is because the front left sonotube has failed.  That corner has gone out of place which has caused the garage to tilt and the roof to bow down.  So I will be taking the truss/roof completely down and replacing it.  I would like to jack the building up and fix the sonotubes that need it and maybe have a couple more if need be.  First question is how do you jack the building up.  Its about 14 feet wide and 32ish feet long.  Second question is how would i realign the walls?  Would i use come-alongs.  Third question is should I realign with the roof on or take the roof off first and then realign?  I would think it would be a lot easier with the roof off.


----------



## Snoonyb

Off-load the roof.
Separate the wall to be lifted and plumbed from the door wall.
Brace the wall, raise and rest it on 4X4's, repair/replace your foundation, slide the wall over and reset it on the foundation, plumb and reattach the garage door wall.


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> Okay the garage held up during the winter and now its time to figure out what to do next.  I apologize for not sending picks, there was just not much to show.
> 
> So, the reason the garage is failing is because the front left sonotube has failed.  That corner has gone out of place which has caused the garage to tilt and the roof to bow down.  So I will be taking the truss/roof completely down and replacing it.  I would like to jack the building up and fix the sonotubes that need it and maybe have a couple more if need be.  First question is how do you jack the building up.  Its about 14 feet wide and 32ish feet long.  Second question is how would i realign the walls?  Would i use come-alongs.  Third question is should I realign with the roof on or take the roof off first and then realign?  I would think it would be a lot easier with the roof off.



I believe your come-a-long question is where we started.

Are you open to suggestion from someone who has done this before or are you just looking for ideas that might or might not work to back up your plan?


----------



## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> I believe your come-a-long question is where we started.
> 
> Are you open to suggestion from someone who has done this before or are you just looking for ideas that might or might not work to back up your plan?



Preferably someone who has experience but am willing to take suggestion from everyone.  I want to do this project in the most correct way, safest way and cheapest way possible. Also will note that I will do as much of it as possible by myself and recruit friends and family when necessary.


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> Preferably someone who has experience but am willing to take suggestion from everyone.  I want to do this project in the most correct way, safest way and cheapest way possible. Also will note that I will do as much of it as possible by myself and recruit friends and family when necessary.



Great but not a good plan, go back read the posts and pick some one that made suggestion that you feel will work and put him in charge of the job and let others make comments to him or correct his thinking.

If you work with more masters you will end up with some safety issues missed.
This not an impossible or particular tricky but it has to done with patience and understanding.:hide:


----------



## Snoonyb

Who led you to the conclusion that there were trusses used for the roof structure, because none of the photos show that, and there does not appear to be any photos of the underside, front section of the roof?


----------



## nealtw

Is there a beam over top of this door?
Need a photo of the rafters above this original garage.
The back of those rafters should be sitting on a beam about 18 ft from the front.
Pictures and measurement of those beams.
With a 6 ft level or level with straight edge check the left side of the garage in this photo.


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> Is there a beam over top of this door?
> Need a photo of the rafters above this original garage.
> The back of those rafters should be sitting on a beam about 18 ft from the front.
> Pictures and measurement of those beams.
> With a 6 ft level or level with straight edge check the left side of the garage in this photo.



Msg.#6 has several of the hdr. above the door, but none of the other framing connection.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> Msg.#6 has several of the hdr. above the door, but none of the other framing connection.



Those rafters are side to side the front should be front to back


----------



## Snoonyb

Look beyond and you'll see an obvious cavity, which indicates that the rear of the front gable was framed after the length, and there will not be a beam, just a tie-in.


----------



## biddlecom

Here are some picks of the front garage door from the inside.  Is that what you wanted?


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> Here are some picks of the front garage door from the inside.  Is that what you wanted?



Almost I want to see what the back end of those rafters are sitting on, there should be a beam there.


----------



## Snoonyb

There's no beam there, the valleys are created as a tie-in.

Lay on the floor with your feet pointing away from the door and take the photo looking strait up, panoramic.

Or from a ladder with your back toward the door.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> There's no beam there, the valleys are created as a tie-in.
> 
> Lay on the floor with your feet pointing away from the door and take the photo looking strait up, panoramic.
> 
> Or from a ladder with your back toward the door.



That is what I am afraid of, if it is sagging because all that weight is hanging on a 2x4, lifting the front corner may break something back there.


----------



## biddlecom

Does it matter?  I am taking the roof/truss down and making new roof/truss.


----------



## nealtw

Sorry I missed that statement earlier. If you take the roof off, you then lay the walls down fix the foundation and stand the walls.
Besides the expense removing the roof is dangerous work and gets more dangerous as you go because the building gets less and less stable as you go.
The safest way would be to remove and replace as you go, but then you want your walls to be stable and in place first.
I think most or all of this roof is fixable and the walls may be easier to deal with with the roof structure still there.
It's a big ugly job either way.

If you want we can run thru the job for both.


----------



## Snoonyb

There is the difference, you do not have truss 1 in the roof structure.

Your desire to accomplish the repairs in the simplest, and "cheapest" manner, is another limiting factor.

The roof structure now is an 1930's framing example.

You do not need to completely remove the roof and structure, just the front portion including both valleys and correct the wall displacement.


----------



## biddlecom

I like both of your ideas about not replacing the roof.  I figured it needed to be replaced because the back portion is about a 1 foot pitch (almost flat) and the back portion is bowing down.  Now if I don't have to "replace" the roof but fix a few problems with the roof that would be amazing.  That will make things cheaper and seems it would make it easier to jack up the garage and fix the walls and post.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> There is the difference, you do not have truss 1 in the roof structure.
> 
> Your desire to accomplish the repairs in the simplest, and "cheapest" manner, is another limiting factor.
> 
> The roof structure now is an 1930's framing example.
> 
> You do not need to completely remove the roof and structure, just the front portion including both valleys and correct the wall displacement.



Let's explore that, if you remove the roof, You have cross braces holding the walls where they are, now how do you jack up walls and straighten things with out removing the braces and if the walls have sagged they will be hard to get level.


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> I like both of your ideas about not replacing the roof.  I figured it needed to be replaced because the back portion is about a 1 foot pitch (almost flat) and the back portion is bowing down.  Now if I don't have to "replace" the roof but fix a few problems with the roof that would be amazing.  That will make things cheaper and seems it would make it easier to jack up the garage and fix the walls and post.



Even if I was going to change the roof structure, I would use the old structure first to fix everything else.

My plan would be to lift all of one side at a time so you could straighten the bottom of the wall fix any of the beams sitting on the concrete and set it back down.

I will admit that it is a rough plan and there is much to look at before we say  " get her done."


----------



## Snoonyb

The only part necessary to be removed will be the front 8-10'.

The roof beyond that is holding the walls together, and because of the top-plate ties, only the already displaced bottom plate would be loose.

I wouldn't "X" brace, but brace to the floor at the first paired rafter.


----------



## nealtw

Some of the questions that I have are.
The beam at the back of those rafters in the front section. the beam should have extra studs in both walls to support it. then the concrete pier should be right below that. That pier and extra studs is call a "barring point" 
So what is or isn't there?

The front garage door should have a barring point under the corner of the building and under the studs holding up the beam over the door.
The  beams under the walls are near the ground so they will have to checked for rot. 
A hard poke with a screw driver, you will soon feel the difference between good and bad timber.


----------



## biddlecom

After looking it only looks like 1 sonotube is at a 45 degree angle and the rest are fine.  I also noticed that there are 6x6 on the sonotubes going around the garage.  Then there is a piece of rebar that goes through that 6x6 to hold the building in place.  In my head im thinking I should jack the entire garage at the same time (if possible) so I can take out the old 6x6 and place new one down, then I can place the walls back on the new 6x6.  Once the garage is lined back up I can make any corrections to the roof.  Does that sound like a feasible beginning plan at this point in the conversation?


----------



## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> Some of the questions that I have are.
> The beam at the back of those rafters in the front section. the beam should have extra studs in both walls to support it. then the concrete pier should be right below that. That pier and extra studs is call a "barring point"
> So what is or isn't there?



The big rafter that has 3 2x4 on each wall for that.  Im not 100% sure if there are sonotubes under that though.  I will have to look when I get home.



nealtw said:


> The front garage door should have a barring point under the corner of the building and under the studs holding up the beam over the door. The  beams under the walls are near the ground so they will have to checked for rot. A hard poke with a screw driver, you will soon feel the difference between good and bad timber.



Ill have to look into this as well but thats one reason I want to replace the 6x6 so I have new timber.


----------



## nealtw

At one time it was normal just to throw some timbers on the ground and build a shed or garage on them, the hope was if frost lifted it, it would be even and then settle down the same.
The idea of having a foundation below the frost line is to protect it from moving. The problem here is the frost can lift the beams as they are on the ground and that may have caused some of your problems.
That might take some out of the box thinking no matter what else is done.


----------



## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> At one time it was normal just to throw some timbers on the ground and build a shed or garage on them, the hope was if frost lifted it, it would be even and then settle down the same.
> The idea of having a foundation below the frost line is to protect it from moving. The problem here is the frost can lift the beams as they are on the ground and that may have caused some of your problems.
> That might take some out of the box thinking no matter what else is done.



The beams are below the frost line though.  Wouldn't that prevent them from moving up or down?


----------



## nealtw

In Maine I believe the frost line is 48" below ground, that would be the level of the bottom of your footing or piers.


----------



## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> After looking it only looks like 1 sonotube is at a 45 degree angle and the rest are fine.  I also noticed that there are 6x6 on the sonotubes going around the garage.  Then there is a piece of rebar that goes through that 6x6 to hold the building in place.  In my head im thinking I should jack the entire garage at the same time (if possible) so I can take out the old 6x6 and place new one down, then I can place the walls back on the new 6x6.  Once the garage is lined back up I can make any corrections to the roof.  Does that sound like a feasible beginning plan at this point in the conversation?



Lifting the entire structure has removed "cheap" from consideration.

The quickest is a house mover.

The cheapest, and it's pretty much a push, is accumulating the cribbing, assembling them and the jacks.

The days of labor are free.


----------



## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> In Maine I believe the frost line is 48" below ground, that would be the level of the bottom of your footing or piers.


  Correct. 48" is the minimum


----------



## biddlecom

So when I get home I will check the 6x6 and see what kind of shape they are in.  If they are still pretty solid then it seems all I have to do is raise that one corner in order to fix that sonotube.  Then straighten the garage (however that is done).  Fix any roof issues I have and call it good?

Is there anything else I should check, take picks of, or measure?


----------



## biddlecom

also if the 6x6 are rotted can I just raise sections the garage one at a time and replace as I go?


----------



## bud16415

I am not a pro but I think if this was mine I wouldn&#8217;t take the roof off. The building fell off its footing and racked. Everything wants to go back to its original position. I would lift and pull it back then brace it and replace the supports. It&#8217;s not like you are lifting a 2 story brick house I would think a couple cylinders and a pump and some heave duty pullers you could pick that corner right up and rack the building back square. 

When the garage door lines up you will know you are there. In fact the garage door opening is the reason it moved in the first place no shear strength at all in the front.


----------



## biddlecom

bud16415 said:


> I am not a pro but I think if this was mine I wouldnt take the roof off. The building fell off its footing and racked. Everything wants to go back to its original position. I would lift and pull it back then brace it and replace the supports. Its not like you are lifting a 2 story brick house I would think a couple cylinders and a pump and some heave duty pullers you could pick that corner right up and rack the building back square.
> 
> When the garage door lines up you will know you are there. In fact the garage door opening is the reason it moved in the first place no shear strength at all in the front.



Yeah when I do get it aligned again I am going to strengthen the front garage door and either fill in the back garage door or strengthen it.  The plan you suggest seems to be about were I want to go with this because the more I investigate the garage the more it looks like the only reason this has happened is because of that footing that gave out and the weak garage door set up.


----------



## bud16415

it&#8217;s an old structure and to me the cost of replacing the whole roof and all if I was going to go that far I would just tear the whole thing down and build a nice new pole barn garage for about the same cost and maybe less labor. To me it looks like it can be saved and made good leaving as little untouched as you can. Again I am nothing more than you are I&#8217;m a homeowner that spends a lot of time hanging out with farmers and they are always doing projects like this. 

To me the thing that&#8217;s holding it from going is that little roof over the house doorway. That is not built to take much force and hasn&#8217;t crushed yet so you might not have to pull super hard on the inside to keep it moving in the right direction. It wouldn&#8217;t be too hard to go inside and estimate how much lift you will need based on the weight of what you can see.


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> So when I get home I will check the 6x6 and see what kind of shape they are in.  If they are still pretty solid then it seems all I have to do is raise that one corner in order to fix that sonotube.  Then straighten the garage (however that is done).  Fix any roof issues I have and call it good?
> 
> Is there anything else I should check, take picks of, or measure?



I want you to check the plumb on the left front so you can show Bud that is actually leaning the other way. Just hold a level on the side wall pull the level out to plumb and measure how far out it is and you have something like 1/4 in the length of the level. Or 1/4 in 4  ft

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's look instead of what we have or think we have first.

Sono tubes were not around when this garage was built, so this has been fixed before.  so why did it fail again. If we don't solve that question even a whole new structure could have the same problem in a few years.

Right now my thinking is to fix this front section and it will be piece meal, we just want to make sure we know what you are going to find and how best to fix what ever.


----------



## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> its an old structure and to me the cost of replacing the whole roof and all if I was going to go that far I would just tear the whole thing down and build a nice new pole barn garage for about the same cost and maybe less labor. To me it looks like it can be saved and made good leaving as little untouched as you can. Again I am nothing more than you are Im a homeowner that spends a lot of time hanging out with farmers and they are always doing projects like this.
> 
> To me the thing thats holding it from going is that little roof over the house doorway. That is not built to take much force and hasnt crushed yet so you might not have to pull super hard on the inside to keep it moving in the right direction. It wouldnt be too hard to go inside and estimate how much lift you will need based on the weight of what you can see.


Pole barns don't have timbers sitting on the ground.


----------



## nealtw

This is typical garage foundation, notice the wing walls come in from the corner to support the beam over the door  and the two wings are tied together so the wings don't spay sideways.
So as I see it with out support for the beam over the door and the wing wall try to sag they are pushing both wing walls outward at the bottom.

Picking this thing up and straighten out everything is easy enough. I am open to suggestions on how best to solve the problem with with these two footings.


----------



## Snoonyb

Yes for #149 & #150.


----------



## biddlecom

i did the level and its 2 1/4" in order to level the level.  also i tested for 6x6 and the bottoms of them are rotted.  so i guess i have to replace the 6x6 which means i have to jack the entire building up or jack it up in sections? not sure how to go about that


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> i did the level and its 2 1/4" in order to level the level.  also i tested for 6x6 and the bottoms of them are rotted.  so i guess i have to replace the 6x6 which means i have to jack the entire building up or jack it up in sections? not sure how to go about that



2 1/2" the side closest to the door and over the whole height or just the level, how long is the level. Is the top of the wall closer to the house or the other way.


----------



## nealtw

When I was ten the sill plates in our house were rotten, my dad got a bunch of 6x6 timbers and started in one corner and lifted a 3 story house with a temp wall cut off the bottom of the wall installed a beam and dropped the house back down. That summer my 14 yr old brother and I did the rest of the house. So when I say that part is childs play, believe it is.

The other problem we are going to have is figuring out what is straight, Do you have a string line and do you know how to tie one.


----------



## nealtw

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACcDtyMwvyc[/ame]


----------



## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> 2 1/2" the side closest to the door and over the whole height or just the level, how long is the level. Is the top of the wall closer to the house or the other way.



The bottom is closer to the house. Its a 4 foot level and I put it in the middle.


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> The bottom is closer to the house. Its a 4 foot level and I put it in the middle.



So the wall top to bottom is out 2 1/4" or it is out 2 1/4" in four feet.
The latter would be 4 1/2 for an 8 ft wall there is a big difference.


----------



## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> So the wall top to bottom is out 2 1/4" or it is out 2 1/4" in four feet.
> The latter would be 4 1/2 for an 8 ft wall there is a big difference.



So I took my 4' level and placed it in the middle, so it was 2' from the top and 2' from the bottom.  Then I leveled it and it measured 2 1/4''from the top of the level.


----------



## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> When I was ten the sill plates in our house were rotten, my dad got a bunch of 6x6 timbers and started in one corner and lifted a 3 story house with a temp wall cut off the bottom of the wall installed a beam and dropped the house back down. That summer my 14 yr old brother and I did the rest of the house. So when I say that part is childs play, believe it is.
> 
> The other problem we are going to have is figuring out what is straight, Do you have a string line and do you know how to tie one.



After watching your video I know how to do the string line now.  I will have to pick some up at the store tomorrow though.  What do I do with it?


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> So I took my 4' level and placed it in the middle, so it was 2' from the top and 2' from the bottom.  Then I leveled it and it measured 2 1/4''from the top of the level.



So we know both piers are out of whack, How do you feel about digging a trench all the way across from corner to corner 4 ft deep.:hide:


----------



## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> So we know both piers are out of whack, How do you feel about digging a trench all the way across from corner to corner 4 ft deep.:hide:



I'm willing to do what I need to do.  What reason would I do this? I also want a solid plan before I start doing anything.


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> After watching your video I know how to do the string line now.  I will have to pick some up at the store tomorrow though.  What do I do with it?



I want to see how straight the roof line is so it would be a nail on the front corner outside of wall and the back corner. match the height down from the top on both ends. Pull and tie the string from nail to nail.
So now you slide both ends out on the nails say 1 inch.
Now you can go along and measure that same distance from the string to the wall above each pier. Then check level or plumb for each of those spots.

Make a chart and give each pier a name that we can use thru the job.

As this is the right side start at the front corner, R1 and R2 and so on . 

So R1 height from top or bottom or what ever looks like it should have been level. string is 1" out.
Plumb is ? out at the bottom .
I want that info for all spots over the piers just on the right side for now.
The way you used the level was not quit right but it will do for now. Let the string stop moving before you take a measurement.


----------



## biddlecom

So after thinking about it for a minute.  It seems I will have to jack up the garage little by little and replace the 6x6s as I go.  As Im going I can fix, replace, add any polls that I need to and then level the building out as I go?  Is that how it would be done.  Also once that part is done and the walls are level I can reinforce the front and back garage doors and reinforce level out the roof?  Correct?


----------



## Snoonyb

So, have you concluded that just the 6X6 has failed, or are you speaking of after the rolled foundation has been repaired.


----------



## biddlecom

Snoonyb said:


> So, have you concluded that just the 6X6 has failed, or are you speaking of after the rolled foundation has been repaired.



So the foundation are tubes and then the 6x6's on those tubes.  I would think going around and replacing the rotten 6x6's and fixing, replacing, adding tubes would give me a solid foundation.


----------



## Snoonyb

Before you embark upon this, establish some level lines, which basically require several stakes, a pencil and a water level.

The stakes should be placed in such a manner that they will not be easily displaced by the traffic generated in the repairs.

I'm presuming that the foundation rolled in part, because of insufficient diameter, or depth.


----------



## biddlecom

Snoonyb said:


> Before you embark upon this, establish some level lines, which basically require several stakes, a pencil and a water level.
> 
> The stakes should be placed in such a manner that they will not be easily displaced by the traffic generated in the repairs.
> 
> I'm presuming that the foundation rolled in part, because of insufficient diameter, or depth.



Thats probably accurate.  Im thinking when I dig up that pole that gave out I will know how long it is and see if its below the frost line (48'').


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> Before you embark upon this, establish some level lines, which basically require several stakes, a pencil and a water level.
> 
> The stakes should be placed in such a manner that they will not be easily displaced by the traffic generated in the repairs.
> 
> I'm presuming that the foundation rolled in part, because of insufficient diameter, or depth.



Both side kicked outwards, I see 2 reasons.
1 no support under the jack studs both sides of door,
2 they needed to be tied together.


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> So after thinking about it for a minute.  It seems I will have to jack up the garage little by little and replace the 6x6s as I go.  As Im going I can fix, replace, add any polls that I need to and then level the building out as I go?  Is that how it would be done.  Also once that part is done and the walls are level I can reinforce the front and back garage doors and reinforce level out the roof?  Correct?



Yes I am hoping that we can get some idea where it was or where it should be for at least straight.
I would like to get the side beams off the ground because they are subject to even the lightest frost. But every idea I have for that, I also come up with other problems that might be caused by that fix:rofl:


----------



## nealtw

We also need distance between piers and distance to the back of the rafters in that front section.
Are the piers is the same location on both sides?


----------



## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> Thats probably accurate.  Im thinking when I dig up that pole that gave out I will know how long it is and see if its below the frost line (48'').



As you work your way back along the outside wall, where you replace the foundation use the appropriate post anchors ton capture the 6X6 instead of having to lift over or move the structure out of the way.

http://www.strongtie.com/resources/literature/wood-construction-connectors-catalog


----------



## bud16415

Here is what it looks like to me.


----------



## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> Here is what it looks like to me.



Print the the photo and measure from the corner over to the door.
He has checked it with a level the bottom has kicked out 2 1/4 inches.

This is no place for a quick fix.


----------



## nealtw

Bud & Snoonyb

There is no point in suggesting fixes that don't solve the problem as it will just happen again.

The question first do we have enough foundation in the piers to just lift and fix.
We have had suggestion of just pulling it straight, removing the roof, and complete re and re.

None of this is rocket science but come on we have to have as many facts as possible.

The real fix would be to lift it set it on cribbing and put a foundation under it and set it down. That is what you would do if you were building new.
I am just trying to figure out if it is possible to do less than that and get a permanent fix.

I have the OPs head full of the information I need, please don't get ahead of the information stage.


----------



## Snoonyb

It's pretty straight forward for me, and the determining factor for weather it will last, will be the dia., #, depth and rebar cage installed of the foundation.

There should already be a line to follow described by the existing floor material.

I'd still remove the front section of roof because the down pressure resulting in the tendency toward a parallelogram has caused a lot of the connectors being loose and marginal at best.


----------



## bud16415

nealtw said:


> I have the OPs head full of the information



As they say on the Shark Tank. Im out.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> It's pretty straight forward for me, and the determining factor for weather it will last, will be the dia., #, depth and rebar cage installed of the foundation.
> 
> There should already be a line to follow described by the existing floor material.
> 
> I'd still remove the front section of roof because the down pressure resulting in the tendency toward a parallelogram has caused a lot of the connectors being loose and marginal at best.



There might be a few ways to fix this or maybe it should come down but I want to know what everything is before giving the OP  those choices.
Any ideas on how to hold it all together if we lift it that will still let things go back together when the weight is applied later.


----------



## Snoonyb

I think I addressed that on pg.13, msg #121.

6 pgs. ago.


----------



## nealtw

The wing wall was suppose to support the beam over the door, would you take the whole wall down, as both sides have to be fixed?


----------



## nealtw

Every job needs new toys these are just a few thing you can start looking for bargain on.
New or used, good or cheap, don't care, usually it is the blade in a saw that makes a difference, if you not sure, check back with us before you buy.
5 ft digging bar
7 1/4 circular saw
hammer drill
20 ton jack, Cheap at home depot, I usually don't use jacks but having two on site is not a bad idea.
sawall


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> The wing wall was suppose to support the beam over the door, would you take the whole wall down, as both sides have to be fixed?



The entire door wall is a separate element and can be detached from the wall whose support has rolled, and I'm not advising to take either down.

Facing the door wall from the outside, the deflection of the left wall is from the effect of compression, which remedying the right wall, pulling the left wall to plumb, reattaching the door wall and adding shear panel will correct.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> The entire door wall is a separate element and can be detached from the wall whose support has rolled, and I'm not advising to take either down.
> 
> Facing the door wall from the outside, the deflection of the left wall is from the effect of compression, which remedying the right wall, pulling the left wall to plumb, reattaching the door wall and adding shear panel will correct.



I don't think so, you have the weight of the roof coming down on the door jacks.
It would have been better if the door beam had gone right to the corners? maybe


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> I don't think so, you have the weight of the roof coming down on the door jacks.



How do you convert a rectangle to a parallelogram, without compressing a corner.



nealtw said:


> It would have been better if the door beam had gone right to the corners? maybe



In hind-site maybe it would have taken longer, but it was an eventuality.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> How do you convert a rectangle to a parallelogram, without compressing a corner.
> 
> 
> 
> In hind-site maybe it would have taken longer, but it was an eventuality.



I have to look at pictures.


----------



## nealtw

I can't find a good photo of the inside of that.


----------



## Snoonyb

Pg. 18 msg.#178

Oh my god, we're at pg. 20.


----------



## biddlecom

So I been a little confused on what I need to do.  Can we try to work together and agree with a step 1? It seems I have to figure out measurements, string lines, things like that? Is that correct and agreed upon or is there something else I should do first?


----------



## Snoonyb

I would forgo the string line and the dimensioning, because you should have a relatively clear line described by the separation between the floor and the deflected wall and rely on a tape measure and an established level.

You can rent a jack similar in purpose to this;http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/371491053956?item=371491053956&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466&rmvSB=true

Here are a couple more, which should also be available; http://www.amazon.com/dp/B010VW4YZ8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052PLE4E/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


----------



## nealtw

Sorry, I missed where the floor is obviously straight.
We do not know how well this building is holding together, which you pointed out.


----------



## Snoonyb

I do not remember ever saying the floor was straight, but that there should be a straight line of demarkation defining where the support has moved away.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> I do not remember ever saying the floor was straight, but that there should be a straight line of demarkation defining where the support has moved away.



So, just put it back where it was. Ignore the fact the OP wants to change out all the rotted beams and that it might be just as easy to straighten the structure at the same time. 
Ignore the fact that just jacking in one place could be just enough to have a complete failure of structure.


----------



## biddlecom

I feel I have a semi solid plan.  Jack it up in sections, fix the tubes and replace the 6x6.  Once its lowered and level I will reinforce the front and back garage doors and fix any roof issues.  It seems to make sense to me but Im not to familiar with this kind of work.  If this does make sense then what would be the first step in order to accomplish this?


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> So, just put it back where it was. Ignore the fact the OP wants to change out all the rotted beams and that it might be just as easy to straighten the structure at the same time.
> Ignore the fact that just jacking in one place could be just enough to have a complete failure of structure.



After all of the discussion about bracing and supporting?


----------



## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> I feel I have a semi solid plan.  Jack it up in sections, fix the tubes and replace the 6x6.  Once its lowered and level I will reinforce the front and back garage doors and fix any roof issues.  It seems to make sense to me but Im not to familiar with this kind of work.  If this does make sense then what would be the first step in order to accomplish this?



First you'll need to brace it, and against the house will be the easiest and most convenient.

And you'll need to decide weather or not you want to lift the door wall and the displaced wall at the same time, which I'm not an advocate of, determine what lengths of 6X6 pressure treated are available, you are willing to purchase, or railroad ties or on the off chance you can come across some creosote.


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> I feel I have a semi solid plan.  Jack it up in sections, fix the tubes and replace the 6x6.  Once its lowered and level I will reinforce the front and back garage doors and fix any roof issues.  It seems to make sense to me but Im not to familiar with this kind of work.  If this does make sense then what would be the first step in order to accomplish this?



And it is just about that easy, Usually we just lift up one side repair that and carry on.  The problem is the structure has been stressed and we do not know that we can trust the foundation and rotted beams will hold everything together while you do that. We can brace things all over the place to keep things together. The trick is know what needs to be braced and why.

Put it this way. If this is my garage and I want to fix it. The questions I would ask myself.
What is wrong with it?
What caused it to go wrong?
Are there fixes that will stabilize it for a few years?
Are there fixes that would be more permanent?
How much more work would it be to add straightening?
Will any of this work add value to the property?
Cost of material and time for each of these thoughts?

Cost of complete rip down and re build.

I do not have enough info yet to make that decision for my garage.

If you think you have enough info now to make a decision on how best to do it, there are people here to give advice to how to tear into the job.


----------



## biddlecom

What if I was to do something like in this video?

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlXlyxzDQV8[/ame]


----------



## Snoonyb

Have you decided to replace the supports on both sides or just the right side.

The jacking system is another method.

You can use this method but placing a garage on gravel with what amounts to a scoop foundation, will not permanently stabilize it, unless you are also tying the perimeters together with a reinforced concrete slab


----------



## biddlecom

Snoonyb said:


> Have you decided to replace the supports on both sides or just the right side.
> 
> The jacking system is another method.
> 
> You can use this method but placing a garage on gravel with what amounts to a scoop foundation, will not permanently stabilize it, unless you are also tying the perimeters together with a reinforced concrete slab



Im going to replace all the 6x6 and check and replace any of the post that need it.  After talking to some people at work im going to do a concrete slab instead of replacing with asphalt.  As far as tying them together I wasnt planning that but it seems like a better idea.


----------



## biddlecom

Some more pictures.


----------



## biddlecom

some more pictures


----------



## biddlecom

couple more


----------



## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> Im going to replace all the 6x6 and check and replace any of the post that need it.  After talking to some people at work im going to do a concrete slab instead of replacing with asphalt.  As far as tying them together I wasnt planning that but it seems like a better idea.



Embarking on the jacking system will require the raising of the entire garage, in mass.

Replacing the 6X6 and the supporting foundation that have failed, totally will afford you a stable base to set the garage on.

However a concrete slab as the floor should be kept separate and allowed to float.

If you recall, at the end of the video the narrator said something about a ton of rebar.

What he was referring to was creating a gradebeam, which is essentially a specific rebar cage encased in concrete.

Which is another method that could be employed for your situation, however, the further you delve into this, the further you get away from cheap and easy.


----------



## Snoonyb

Thanks for the photos.

They should add significant clarity.

And I was wrong in my ASSumption regarding the roof "tie-in" statement, photos 9 & 10 of 205 and 1 of 206 show that the valleys were actually carpenter framed valleys.


----------



## biddlecom

Well from what everyone was saying I would be able to save the roof and basically the entire garage and not have to replace much.  So if I was able to get away with $3000-$4000 I would be happy.


----------



## Snoonyb

The governing factor, will be, should I by Domino's pizza and Bubwieser, or just a franchise.


----------



## biddlecom

Snoonyb said:


> Embarking on the jacking system will require the raising of the entire garage, in mass.
> 
> Replacing the 6X6 and the supporting foundation that have failed, totally will afford you a stable base to set the garage on.
> 
> However a concrete slab as the floor should be kept separate and allowed to float.
> 
> If you recall, at the end of the video the narrator said something about a ton of rebar.
> 
> What he was referring to was creating a gradebeam, which is essentially a specific rebar cage encased in concrete.
> 
> Which is another method that could be employed for your situation, however, the further you delve into this, the further you get away from cheap and easy.




As for the jacking system.  Would I be able to do what they did with the 2x10 on both sides of the wall and instead of jacking the entire building up just jack up a portion at a time.  I dont want to invest in a bunch of jacks I will only use once.


----------



## biddlecom

Snoonyb said:


> The governing factor, will be, should I by Domino's pizza and Bubwieser, or just a franchise.



which ever is cheaper.


----------



## Snoonyb

biddlecom said:


> As for the jacking system.  Would I be able to do what they did with the 2x10 on both sides of the wall and instead of jacking the entire building up just jack up a portion at a time.  I dont want to invest in a bunch of jacks I will only use once.



Ideally, you want to avoid twisting and further disruption of what remains of the connections in the structure.

Yes 2X10 are just fine.

I see 10 lift points and 20 support points to jack from.

Set them all up before you start. 

You can rent a couple 10 to 20ton bottle jacks pretty inexpensively and move from jack point to jack point.

Just take your time.

Since you have diagonal sheathing under the siding, when you make the cuts for the support beams, try and cut in the center of the stud.

Brew 102 was .37 a quart.


----------



## biddlecom

Snoonyb said:


> Ideally, you want to avoid twisting and further disruption of what remains of the connections in the structure.
> 
> Yes 2X10 are just fine.
> 
> I see 6 lift points and 20 support points to jack from.
> 
> Set them all up before you start.
> 
> You can rent a couple 10 to 20ton bottle jacks pretty inexpensively and move from jack point to jack point.
> 
> Just take your time.
> 
> Since you have diagonal sheathing under the siding, when you make the cuts for the support beams, try and cut in the center of the stud.
> 
> Brew 102 was .37 a quart.



.37 a quart is a good price.  Heard it wasn't the best tasting beer though.


----------



## Snoonyb

It was just right on a seaman apprentice salary.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> You can rent a couple 10 to 20ton bottle jacks pretty inexpensively and move from jack point to jack point.



Really
http://www.contractorsrentalsupply.ca/equipment/bottle-jack-12-ton-10/

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Big-Red-20-Ton-Low-Profile-Bottle-Jack-T92007A/100595081


----------



## bud16415

Ok I know I said I was out on this thread as too many cooks spoil the broth. BUT IMHO I would never jack this whole building up off the ground similar to what was shown in the video. That building was relatively short and all built at one time. It also didn&#8217;t have a door on both ends and one for sure as loose as a goose. What you have there is a house of cards and what&#8217;s keeping it from falling over is it is leaning on the house and it is stuck to the ground fairly well over 90% of the base even if it is rotten in places. 

It is going to need jacked up and pulled back on one side similar to what was shown in the movie. Connect from the corner with a ledger in and out as they show going back about 6 studs jack the building back into square by pulling and jacking and maybe even jacking the bottom over if it doesn&#8217;t go on its own. Once you get it square crib it up good and stiffen the front wall to resist racking again. Even if you have to skin the whole front wall with plywood add diagonal bracing plates etc. 

Now you can do whatever you want to make a foundation. I wouldn&#8217;t do a full pour and all that as I wouldn&#8217;t value the building as high as the cost of doing that. The last guy made a try at doing it with putting some inadequate footings in and it looks like freeze thaw rolled it over to me. You can move along 8 feet at a time maybe 12 and lift the building a half inch in just that area and cut out the bad and replace with PT beams and build footing if required or sink posts. 

Or if you stiffen the whole thing up good enough them lift it up dig a 4 foot footer pour a wall as Neal suggests and anchor it down. That&#8217;s a really big DIY job though. 

Buy a jack it&#8217;s nice to have around after you do this job. 

Good luck I&#8217;m out again.


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> Really
> http://www.contractorsrentalsupply.ca/equipment/bottle-jack-12-ton-10/
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Big-Red-20-Ton-Low-Profile-Bottle-Jack-T92007A/100595081



Really; http://www.werentmosteverything.com/search.asp?search=bottle+jacks&imageField.x=11&imageField.y=8

http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?q=bottle+jacks


----------



## biddlecom

okay guys. I have a baby due in a couple weeks and my company just went through something major which landed me a different job and is going to take up my time for a good year.  So I need a fast fix.  Im thinking if I brace both garage doors and place a 2x10 on both inside and out side walls (for jack points) that will give me a solid base.  Then I can use 1 jack? for each section and replace and straighten as I go.  Would that be a solid plan for the first stage which is fixing beams and replacing 6x6 sill plates?


----------



## nealtw

It all has to be stabilized before you jack anything for the quick fix, it would just be temp walls and bracing.


----------



## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> It all has to be stabilized before you jack anything for the quick fix, it would just be temp walls and bracing.



What do you mean by temporary wall? Also would 1 jack be enough?


----------



## nealtw

Just so you know what I have been thinking
The cause of the problem
The beams sitting on the ground. Has been lifted by frost, if the beams are attached to the piers then the piers have moved to.

My fix would be to lift ones side, straighten and level that side, remove all the beams on that side.
Ignore the piers and convert the structure to a pole barn by cutting a notch in the bottom plate, digging down 48" and install a post every 10 or twelve ft.
Set a 2x10 on top of the posts and screw it to the studs and then add another 2x10
The posts in the corners and beside the doors could be placed inside so to keep the wall together.


----------



## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> Just so you know what I have been thinking
> The cause of the problem
> The beams sitting on the ground. Has been lifted by frost, if the beams are attached to the piers then the piers have moved to.
> 
> My fix would be to lift ones side, straighten and level that side, remove all the beams on that side.
> Ignore the piers and convert the structure to a pole barn by cutting a notch in the bottom plate, digging down 48" and install a post every 10 or twelve ft.
> Set a 2x10 on top of the posts and screw it to the studs and then add another 2x10
> The posts in the corners and beside the doors could be placed inside so to keep the wall together.



So why would you suggest a pole barn?  Also who would you keep the post from rotting?  Below is whats in my head from what you said.  Is that picture correct?


----------



## nealtw

Treated lumber that is rated for under ground use would be enclosed in concrete and even when raw lumber is planted the only place it rots is where it meets water and air so at the surface.
For extra protection we just wrap a 6" peel and stick around the post at ground level.
Your picture is good except the post would be higher, as high as possible to give the wall stiffness. In a pole barn they go right to the roof but I doubt you could get that in there.
Once that is done the space where the beams were would have to be filled but that would be constructed so it would crush first so the frost would not hurt the building again.


----------



## Snoonyb

Only if you send your wife and the baby to one or the other of your mother-in-laws.

If jacking is your method, next is assembling the material for raising the entire structure, deciding what you are going to use to attach the new 6X6, acquire the treated 6X6,  then you can safely  work on lifting the garage.


----------



## biddlecom

Is there a reason that i couldnt set it up the same way it is now.  Im not sure I want to do a pole barn.


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> Is there a reason that i couldnt set it up the same way it is now.  Im not sure I want to do a pole barn.



It will happen again.


----------



## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> It will happen again.



It would happen because of frost?


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> It will happen again.



Not if it's done right.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> Not if it's done right.



And how would you do it right?


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> It would happen because of frost?



Yes, right now the beams are the foundation and are subject to frost.
That why foundations are 48" deep.


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> And how would you do it right?



Just like I've been saying all along.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> Just like I've been saying all along.



I guess I missed that. Kindly explain again.


----------



## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> Just so you know what I have been thinking
> The cause of the problem
> The beams sitting on the ground. Has been lifted by frost, if the beams are attached to the piers then the piers have moved to.
> 
> My fix would be to lift ones side, straighten and level that side, remove all the beams on that side.
> Ignore the piers and convert the structure to a pole barn by cutting a notch in the bottom plate, digging down 48" and install a post every 10 or twelve ft.
> Set a 2x10 on top of the posts and screw it to the studs and then add another 2x10
> The posts in the corners and beside the doors could be placed inside so to keep the wall together.



Im confused about the 2x10.  is the 2x10 the top sill plate where the roof connects?


----------



## biddlecom

Also if my post i have in the ground right now are 48" deep they shouldn't be subject to frost right?


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> I guess I missed that. Kindly explain again.



We're at 24pgs, for an 8pg. thread.


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> Im confused about the 2x10.  is the 2x10 the top sill plate where the roof connects?



That is where I would screw it to the wall if you can get an 11 ft post in a hole on the inside of the garage.
If it were right at the top, it carry the roof and the screws would just hold the weight of the walls


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> Also if my post i have in the ground right now are 48" deep they shouldn't be subject to frost right?



You have posted picture but I still don't have a clear picture of how the roof in the front section ties into the back section, can you post a photo or two of that .


----------



## biddlecom

Here are some photos.  This about as good as it will get.


----------



## nealtw

That what I was afraid of, we won't find that construction method in a book, they went about it backward.
If you just lift the font of the building and stress the joints back there any more we could cause something to break.
So we have to either fix it first or support it temporary while you do the lift and come back to it.


----------



## nealtw

Just so you know the difference in this picture 
The ridge board at the top of the picture is a beam, the gay taking the picture is standing on a beam which is supported by the other angle beam and then the short angled piece is also a beam


----------



## nealtw

I have the fix I think and when you are ready we can go over them.


----------



## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> I have the fix I think and when you are ready we can go over them.



Yeah we can start.  I would like to get prep and materials going this weekend into next.


----------



## nealtw

.................


----------



## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> .................



I would like to not tear down anything I dont have to.  Maybe just fix it.


----------



## nealtw

I want 5  2x4s one under each of those rafter that end at the angled piece. put a 2x4 on the ground like you were building walls in a V shape nail the bottom in place nail a scab to the top and onto the piece you are support.
About 6 ft off the floor I want a 2x4 nailed across those back on the angle deeper into the garage and nailed to the outside walls.
Discussion??


----------



## nealtw

biddlecom said:


> I would like to not tear down anything I dont have to.  Maybe just fix it.



You will fix it later.
The beam is there we just have to use it like it was intended to be used.


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> That what I was afraid of, we won't find that construction method in a book, they went about it backward.
> If you just lift the font of the building and stress the joints back there any more we could cause something to break.
> So we have to either fix it first or support it temporary while you do the lift and come back to it.



That's a typical carpenter framed valley.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> That's a typical carpenter framed valley.



Maybe in your world, most people want it to stay where they put it.


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## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> Maybe in your world, most people want it to stay where they put it.



And they have for decades and decades.

However, try to maintain some perspective here, IE. how long are the rafters in the example you posted, 14-16ft?

How long are the rafters in the OP's garage, 6-7ft?


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## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> That what I was afraid of, we won't find that construction method in a book, they went about it backward.



Really?

Look here;http://www.awc.org/pdf/codes-standa...-WCD1-ConventionalWoodFrame-ViewOnly-0107.pdf

Pg, 44


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> And they have for decades and decades.
> 
> 
> Find that book and burn it.


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## Snoonyb

Mao tried that.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> Mao tried that.



I wouldn't mind if you questioned what I say and why it concerned me but you seemed to be determined to prove something, I am not sure what. Buildings in this shape are dangerous but can be worked on, but first you have to understand what all the problems are and how best to make it safe before you start fixing things, then you have to have a plan for the fix.
Then it is ten times that important for the guy doing the work to understand the dangers so he doesn't end up dead.


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## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> I wouldn't mind if you questioned what I say and why it concerned me but you seemed to be determined to prove something, I am not sure what.



Who said that the framing style could no be found in a book?

Your answer was to burn the book, of evidence that it not only was in a book but is standard practice.



nealtw said:


> Buildings in this shape are dangerous but can be worked on, but first you have to understand what all the problems are and how best to make it safe before you start fixing things, then you have to have a plan for the fix.



While it took the OP some time to post pictures of the problems evolution, I was aware pretty much from the start what the cause and corrective actions needed to be.



nealtw said:


> Then it is ten times that important for the guy doing the work to understand the dangers so he doesn't end up dead.



I have the feeling he already understands.

So, what do you think, another couple of months and another 15-20 pgs.?


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## nealtw

Perhaps if you stopped with the stupid part things would go faster.


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## Snoonyb

"another couple of months and another 15-20 pgs."

That's just your part.


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## slownsteady

It's not a competition, guys. Take the off-topic part of your discussion off-line, and help this guy out.


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## bud16415

Just to clarify what causes stress in a structure and potential dangers of those stresses. 

When a conventional structure is built it is what they call static equilibrium. Of course there are stresses in the materials do to the weight of the building acting downward do to gravity. There are structures built that pre stressed with tension members and such but stick framing isn&#8217;t that. So the building was standing and force do to mass (weight) ran down thru the studs and into the earth and the forces balanced and the structure stood. The failure that occurred wasn&#8217;t caused by like what we see in a very old house where over centuries members deflected and relaxed and changed shape and now we are jacking against things that to put them right have to be stressed in reverse. This failure was caused by points of attachment failed and the joints then failed and the building hinged along the points of attachment. So now the building could be in a state of tension that was not in the design as pure compression loading. Structures that fail like this want to return to their original position and in jacking we shouldn&#8217;t be adding tension to the structure where it wasn&#8217;t intended instead we are relieving tension and putting it back where the design had it in the first place.  Now jacking beyond the starting point will introduce tension and possibility of danger.


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## Snoonyb

bud16415 said:


> Now jacking beyond the starting point will introduce tension and possibility of danger.



Only when incorrectly approached.

Some of the balance of your suppositions regarding the failure of this structure are marginal at best.


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## nealtw

Bud, You are making to many assumptions here.
Before you can just lift you have to understand all the stresses on a building.
Gravity is never discussed as such as it is usually the root cause, what we look for are all the effects.
In order to asses a structure we have to know the structure and it's design failures.
If we jump in and jack something up or pull it into place we assuming that the foundation is the only problem.

In this case we are most likely dealing with frost heave which may have taken it past your starting point.

If you google sagging valley rafters you will find a couple roofs constructed like this one, add to that there are no rafter ties in the front section.

We have no idea how many cycles of frost movement this has been thru.

The home owner is here because he knows he doesn't know what he doesn't know, so we can't assume he know enough to do anything safely. We have to inform him of everything that is going on, what can be done what should be done and what can't be done.
He is our eyes and ears so we have to educate him on what to look for and use his answers to give him our best advice.


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## bud16415

I agree with all that I wasn&#8217;t setting forth a plan of action or even suggesting action just that all the links in the wobbly structure are the right lengths and came from a condition that was one time stable. If you go back to the markup I made about 20 pages back I showed adding diagonal stability during the event any lifting is done as controlling those movements would allow the lift to happen in a controlled way. I wasn&#8217;t suggesting a plan of action again only some food for thought for the OP. in fact I was the one that said do not attempt to lift the whole thing as shown in that video because they were lifting a stable building straight up. This building is not yet stable. IMO putting in say rafter ties now would stabilize the roof before a lift but would also lock them into an unnatural shape and then the lift would cause stress where you don&#8217;t want it.   

Now keep going with what your plan is for him.


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## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> I agree with all that I wasnt setting forth a plan of action or even suggesting action just that all the links in the wobbly structure are the right lengths and came from a condition that was one time stable. If you go back to the markup I made about 20 pages back I showed adding diagonal stability during the event any lifting is done as controlling those movements would allow the lift to happen in a controlled way. I wasnt suggesting a plan of action again only some food for thought for the OP. in fact I was the one that said do not attempt to lift the whole thing as shown in that video because they were lifting a stable building straight up. This building is not yet stable. IMO putting in say rafter ties now would stabilize the roof before a lift but would also lock them into an unnatural shape and then the lift would cause stress where you dont want it.
> 
> Now keep going with what your plan is for him.


That is correct but you do have to understand the stresses and forces so you know where to put braces and it has to make sense to to homeowner.
Unless we ask questions we don't find problems like this and then we can't explain the problem.


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## biddlecom

Okay I know the drawing is confusing but this is what I&#8217;m planning.  The red lines are 2x4&#8217;s, I have 11 total.  There will be 3 on the outside right and 3 on the outside left side.  They will be placed where the ceiling cross beams are. Then I have 5 on the inside.  3 underneath the middle of the cross beams and 2 underneath the front garage door.  The little red lines on the right outside floor are 4 foot stakes I place last summer.  The 2 yellow strips are 2x10&#8217;s one on the outside left wall, inside left wall, outside right wall, and inside left wall.  I will use those for bracing when jacking up the building.  The blue line will be my chain and come along.  What does everyone think?


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## slownsteady

I don't think the chain and come-along should take the place of a solid wood diagonal member. First, in order for it to be tight enough to help it would be putting additional forces on the structure, potentially pulling down on that corner. Second, it will need constant adjustment as the building moves. On the other hand, if the come-along is intended to pull the structure back to square, I would anchor to the ground further away from the building, so that the force is more lateral than vertical.

General question, which i may have missed earlier; are the two side walls parallel to each other? If not, should they be adjusted before the building is un-leaned?


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## Snoonyb

SnS, the drawing doesn't give the true shape of the garage.

See msg.#207.


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## slownsteady

Snoonyb said:


> SnS, the drawing doesn't give the true shape of the garage.
> 
> See msg.#207.



understood, but the chain & come-along would still need to be angled so that that the horizontal pull would be maximized and the vertical pull minimized if he's using it to square up the structure. And, as a brace I think it is too flexible.


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## slownsteady

should be some insights here:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...2173&showall=1


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## biddlecom

slownsteady said:


> understood, but the chain & come-along would still need to be angled so that that the horizontal pull would be maximized and the vertical pull minimized if he's using it to square up the structure. And, as a brace I think it is too flexible.



Yeah I would be using it to help straighten out the garage.  Also the link you provided in the post is not coming up.


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## bud16415

The reason the blue line is going to the lower corner is because there is no higher ridged bearing point to attach to. If his neighbor would allow him to run a cable over to their house or yard for support that would produce less of a vertical force vector for sure. The redeeming thing is the force to pull and support the wall at the top is way less than the force to lift it and the roof. So as drawn if it is at 45 degrees to get one pound of force inward the blue line would have to pull 1.414 pounds and that would add one pound to the jacking beam shown in yellow. Say it takes 10 ton to lift the corner and you need 1 ton to pull the top over the jack would see 11 ton. 

Adjustable cables going both directions can act as stability control also. The blue one shown will keep the building from going to the left but wont help with the right. During the lift all those other braces will be fighting the movement IMO.


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## biddlecom

bud16415 said:


> The reason the blue line is going to the lower corner is because there is no higher ridged bearing point to attach to. If his neighbor would allow him to run a cable over to their house or yard for support that would produce less of a vertical force vector for sure. The redeeming thing is the force to pull and support the wall at the top is way less than the force to lift it and the roof. So as drawn if it is at 45 degrees to get one pound of force inward the blue line would have to pull 1.414 pounds and that would add one pound to the jacking beam shown in yellow. Say it takes 10 ton to lift the corner and you need 1 ton to pull the top over the jack would see 11 ton.
> 
> Adjustable cables going both directions can act as stability control also. The blue one shown will keep the building from going to the left but wont help with the right. During the lift all those other braces will be fighting the movement IMO.



I have to put some kind of bracing up.


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## slownsteady

go to garagejournal.com, navigate to the forum and search "My leaning garage fix". Use the quotes. You may have to fill in the anti-bot code window to show that you are human.


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## slownsteady

The red 2x4s on the right side would almost definitely fight against any effort to straighten the structure, as they would resist against the pull of the chain. The anchor point for the chain (just calling it chain for brevity, but including come-along) should be at least as far away as the base of the 2x4s on that side...further would be better. I can just imagine the roof being pulled down as easily as the side being straightened.

The red 2x4s on the left would have to be walked up and replanted with each 'degree' of un-tilting, unless they can be counted on to plant themselves as they get dragged forward.


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## nealtw

Sparky617 said:


> .





biddlecom said:


> The foundation is going to be redone in the summer.


this list included everyone that has been here.
These are the people that came in good faith and tried to help, we may disagree on what can and should be done, but that does not take away from their time and effort.
You have been asked for measurement, levels and running a string for a reference point.
You did put  level against one corner to measure the lean.
That camera is not going to fix this thing. It takes understanding, planning, and a whole lot of hard work.
Understanding isn't saying hmm isn't there something easier.


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## biddlecom

nealtw said:


> this list included everyone that has been here.
> These are the people that came in good faith and tried to help, we may disagree on what can and should be done, but that does not take away from their time and effort.
> You have been asked for measurement, levels and running a string for a reference point.
> You did put  level against one corner to measure the lean.
> That camera is not going to fix this thing. It takes understanding, planning, and a whole lot of hard work.
> Understanding isn't saying hmm isn't there something easier.



I understand what you are saying. I have been getting many different opinions and answers from many different people on and off the forum.  Im attempting to piece all of it together and come up with a plan.  I finally have my plan and will attempt to execute it.

Im going to brace and jack up the left corner just a bit so I can investigate that poll and reset it.  From there ill pull the wall so its back where it should be then ill brace it the wall against the house  so it doesn't move back.  Then I will fill in the back garage door and strengthen the front garage door.  After that I will fix and brace what parts of the roof I need to (Also may want to replace some of the beams).  Then I would like to continue jacking up around the garage and replacing the 6x6 plates with 6x6 pressure treated. 

Thats it.  Not sure what else to say.


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## biddlecom

Okay so I pulled out the concrete post and its only about 3' tall.  Should I replace it with a 4' one?  That means the rest of the tubes around the building are 3 feet as well but none of them have moved?  Should I just put the 3 foot one back in, square the building and reinforce the garage door way?


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## biddlecom

So the way it is set up now is the concrete poles are were the orange arrows are.  Should I set it up more like the red tubes?  I remember seeing someone post a suggestion like this on the forum but I cant find the post.


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## bud16415

Around here 3&#8217; depth would be fine 9 out of 10 years and most recommend 4&#8217; to be save. The last couple winters we had -30 temps for a week straight and 4&#8217; wasn&#8217;t enough as my little add on mud room is built that way and the door lifted. We don&#8217;t know what your climate is like but seeing as how the building only failed in that one corner I would leave well enough alone on the ones that have been working especially in a garage. 

I do think a bearing point under the corner is better than placed midway between two points. Two on both sides would be better and one big one across that short distance would be best.  

How did the jacking and moving go?


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## biddlecom

bud16415 said:


> Around here 3 depth would be fine 9 out of 10 years and most recommend 4 to be save. The last couple winters we had -30 temps for a week straight and 4 wasnt enough as my little add on mud room is built that way and the door lifted. We dont know what your climate is like but seeing as how the building only failed in that one corner I would leave well enough alone on the ones that have been working especially in a garage.
> 
> I do think a bearing point under the corner is better than placed midway between two points. Two on both sides would be better and one big one across that short distance would be best.
> 
> How did the jacking and moving go?



So I was talking to my father in law and he suggested putting cinder blocks down there and filling them in with concrete and rebar.  They are wider and will cover more rather then having two separate concrete poles for each side.  

The jacking up went fine but I haven't moved it yet.  Im still trying to figure that part out.  I will be attempting the move today.


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## bud16415

I think blocks would be fine if that&#8217;s how you want to go I would still pour a footing first though on undisturbed and tamped earth.


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## biddlecom

So i straightened the garage today.  Its not perfect but its close enough.  Its also a bit off because the left corner is jacked up still.  Tomorrow Im going to start digging the holes for the blocks and get those set.


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## slownsteady

As they say in Italy; "Mazel tov!"


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## bud16415

The photos look a little like a sketch I saw about 200 posts ago. 

Nice work : you might have to stick around here and become the new building jacking expert. Just make sure you get some good structure in there solid for diagonal bracing before you let the tension off the pulls. 

Again looks promising and you are doing a great job with the photos. :beer:

Did you use that car jack for your lift? I have one just about like that I have used with poles to straighten things up from time to time.


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## biddlecom

bud16415 said:


> The photos look a little like a sketch I saw about 200 posts ago.
> 
> Nice work : you might have to stick around here and become the new building jacking expert. Just make sure you get some good structure in there solid for diagonal bracing before you let the tension off the pulls.
> 
> Again looks promising and you are doing a great job with the photos. :beer:
> 
> Did you use that car jack for your lift? I have one just about like that I have used with poles to straighten things up from time to time.



I used bottle jacks to lift the building and I used that other jack to push the bottom left to the right.  I layed the jack side ways and it seem to work well.


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## biddlecom

So the garage is straight and stable.  Its not perfectly level but its close enough.  My next task is going to rebuild the front and back garage door and make it 10 times stronger.  The way it is now is a joke.  After that I will be figuring out how to make the roof stronger.


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