# Moving tub and sink?



## KatyE (Jan 27, 2015)

Hi all. I am looking for advice about my upcoming bathroom remodel. My biggest problem is that the bathroom entry door is in the kitchen. First, it takes up valuable kitchen space, and second, I HATE having the bathroom right there. When we have guests, and people gather in the kitchen, it almost feels like you're going to the bathroom right with the crowd surrounding you. We would like to close that door off and put a new door off of another (less used) room. The problem with that is that the new door will be located right where the tub currently sits. 
I have always heard that, if at all possible, you should leave fixtures where they are, because moving plumbing is expensive. So I came up with a way to at least leave the toilet where it is, and we would really just be switching the tub and the sink. We plan to put a clawfoot tub where the sink is currently, with exposed plumbing. The new sink is a porcelain console sink. 
SO the question is, will the fact that we already have water running to each location and drains at each location help with the cost? Or are shower and sink plumbing completely different? I ask because, we have to really budget carefully before getting started on this project. I have endured too many projects that drag on for months and months (and sometimes years) because we started without having an honest plan. I know we need to have some wiggle room left in the budget, but plumbing is a big part of the budget, so I want to have a good idea what we are looking at before we jump in.
Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks in advance!


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## nealtw (Jan 27, 2015)

Do you have access to the plumbing below the floor and what is the floor. concrete, wood?


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## KatyE (Jan 27, 2015)

Yes, we have access in the basement, which is unfinished. The subfloor is wood, and we are planning to replace it. The walls, too. It'll pretty much be a gut job, so everything will be accessible.


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## CallMeVilla (Jan 27, 2015)

Yes, it is possible the supply lines and drains will help reduce the total cost of the project.  The tub drain plumbing will have to be modified so the sink will drain into the wall.  The sink plumbing will have to be moved from in-wall to in-floor.  Both these steps will require demolition of some degree but not the destruction of the entire room.  Similarly, the supply lines may have to be adjusted in height and location but this sounds like minor plumbing.

To create a tub drain, an in-floor p-trap will be required.  Hope you can get at the floor from underneath because that will make it very easy to reframe and add drain pipes.
To create the sink drain means cutting the existing tub plumbing out and inserting a drain into the existing drain stack.  All other needed plumbing is there!  Again, access from underneath would be really helpful.  Plan on breaking out the wall and cutting the drain stack.

This is a project can be done by a confident DIYer ... or a DIYer with competent help ...


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## bud16415 (Jan 27, 2015)

It&#8217;s funny you mention this as our first floor bathroom is off the kitchen and off the bathroom is the laundry room. We were doing a total gut to the house and moving a few walls and doorways around and it would have been fairly easy to redo how you gain access to both rooms and I had made plans to move them as what do I know I&#8217;m a man. The one thing she insisted on is I leave them two rooms alone as they were. She&#8217;s a multitasking type person and loves to be able to jump between rooms when cooking and doing laundry and using the bathroom. The house came with that bath being wheelchair accessible and when we have older relatives over they like that fact and its close by. It isn&#8217;t our only bathroom though and if we are having a party some people use that restroom while others use the second floor I gather because it is more private. A secure lock on the door and an exhaust fan that makes some noise also helps. 

As to your question having the plumbing close by is always better. Supply lines these days with the newer flexible lines it doesn&#8217;t matter too much about location but drain lines are a little harder to move a great distance. The best way is to make a layout to scale and then lay your new layout on top of it and see what has to move. As Neal said if you have a basement or crawl space below its not that hard. If your house is on a slab then it becomes a project.


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## nealtw (Jan 27, 2015)

The drain for the tub is bigger than the one for sink so you nay have to do some work with that. If you are doing a complete gut this shouldn't be a big deal. Depending on how the tub drain works with the joist is a consideration and it dosn't want to be centered  on a joist so if it does some framing in the floor would be needed.


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## CallMeVilla (Jan 27, 2015)

nealtw said:


> The drain for the tub is bigger than the one for sink so you nay have to do some work with that. If you are doing a complete gut this shouldn't be a big deal.



The new connection into the drain stack will reduce (maybe) from the sink plumbing p-trap into the stack.  This is a common transition.  The slightly more subtle one is the 1 1/4" sink tail pipe which has to transition into the 1 1/2" p-trap plumbing. That requires an adapter.


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## KatyE (Jan 27, 2015)

Oh, that is good news! I had a feeling it should be doable without major money, but what do I know? Yes, it will all be gutted anyway, so no extra expense for that. We will get the plumbing done while the room is empty. It's a small bathroom, and there is easy access in the basement. I would love to do it ourselves. I'll have to see how my husband feels about that, but I'm game. Fortunately, it's a very small area. Thanks for your help!


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## KatyE (Jan 27, 2015)

We do have an old cast iron stack. Not sure if we have the tools to work with that. Maybe we'll have to have a plumber out after all?


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## nealtw (Jan 27, 2015)

You can rent the cutter for the cast and there is a rubber joiner to plastic pipe but best you talk to the husbend first.


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## frodo (Jan 27, 2015)

can you make a drawing of the room with the current plumbing
and another drawing  showing the new proposed location of the fixtures
also,  pictures of the plumbing in the ceiling of the basement

with that info,  I [we]  can pretty much tell you exactly what needs to be done.


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## KatyE (Jan 27, 2015)

Well, let's see. Basically, what you labeled as  existing is the future layout. The current layout is pretty much like what you labeled as new, except for the placement of the door, which is on the adjacent wall, same corner. But as far as the layout of the fixtures, yes. That's the switch we are making. I will try and post actual pics of the pipes in the basement tomorrow. Hate to admit it, but I can't remember how to hook the camera up to the laptop, and my husband has already gone to bed. I did tell him how helpful you all have been, and he is on board. Not sure how quickly we can make it happen financially, but having the fear of the unknown plumbing cost tamed will help to get things moving along.


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## nealtw (Jan 27, 2015)

Work at those pictures; Frodo will be able to flush out the details.:banana:


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## frodo (Jan 28, 2015)

need you to do some homework.  the existing toilet, we do not want to move,  [expensive]

so,  need to know the measurement from the wall where lav is to center of toilet.

a tub is 30''  then, by code you need minimum 15''  to center of toilet from tub

so from the lav wall,  needs to be 45''  minimum  for your flip to work


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## KatyE (Jan 28, 2015)

Okay, we're good there. Barely. Like I said, it's a small room.
Here are the pics. I had to figure it out on my own. 
The stack runs right through the bathroom. It's right in that corner. I am going to assume you know which pipes are which, but if you have any questions, let me know.


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## nealtw (Jan 28, 2015)

Frodo should be along soon but I would like to know if you know what the gray tup is? Is into the pipe or does it go outside or something. And next time you're down there take a screw driver or something and poke around at the floor joists, just to see if one has really soft spots where they are stained.


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## inspectorD (Jan 28, 2015)

nealtw said:


> Frodo should be along soon but I would like to know if you know what the gray tup is? Is into the pipe or does it go outside or something. And next time you're down there take a screw driver or something and poke around at the floor joists, just to see if one has really soft spots where they are stained.



That grey tube...is a lead drain line..which may need to be replaced. If you are not already, I would also look into replacing those red and blue painted water lines... they are most likely clogged.


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## KatyE (Jan 28, 2015)

Here's my best attempt at the layouts:


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## KatyE (Jan 28, 2015)

nealtw said:


> Frodo should be along soon but I would like to know if you know what the gray tup is? Is into the pipe or does it go outside or something. And next time you're down there take a screw driver or something and poke around at the floor joists, just to see if one has really soft spots where they are stained.



The tube does go into the pipe. I think it's the drain from the sink, but it's hard to say for sure. I was concerned about those joists, too. Never noticed it in the dim basement, but the flash of the camera highlighted it (and the many cobwebs--ahem). It is not wet, and it is solid. Looks like it might have gotten wet at some point, and it is just below the sink, which did leak badly some years back, but we fixed it and never seemed to have any other trouble from it. There is a problem with the joist closest to the wall, right under the tub, though. There has been a persistent leak from the tub. We fix it, it goes away, and then it starts again. It is leaking again, which we just discovered. That is why the corner is so wet. But it seems to have chipped off a bit of wood from the joist, right next to the stack. It still seems solid, but I think we have decided to cut off the water to the tub for now, until we are ready to proceed. We do have another bathroom upstairs, so it's workable. I just don't want to do any more damage, and we can live with just a half bath on the main floor for a while. Glad Frodo asked for pics. I wouldn't have noticed that otherwise.


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## frodo (Jan 28, 2015)

my suggestion would be to completely remove and replace all the plumbing in the bathroom
including the water lines.   is this going to be a diy or are you wanting to hire it out?


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## nealtw (Jan 28, 2015)

As this is a plumbing question, somewhere between demo and plumbing post some questions in framing about these joists.


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## frodo (Jan 29, 2015)

do not get overwhelmed, it is doable,  your pipes right now are old and leaking,  your water lines are galvanized the water must taste bad.   if you decide to remove replace the plumbing, we will go step by step with you till you get in put in.

your drawing shows a waste stack going upstairs.  i assume that is your upstair bathroom.  is that bathroom above this bathroom?
or in another area?    
to do this job, their are a couple of tool you will need.


http://screencast.com/t/lwklsTZ6i1

http://screencast.com/t/IDZRyPLEFf8P

you do nut have to buy the drill,  you can rent it. 

http://screencast.com/t/QPYhL1WQ

http://screencast.com/t/7SN7PSOd


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## bud16415 (Jan 29, 2015)

frodo said:


> my suggestion would be to completely remove and replace all the plumbing in the bathroom
> including the water lines.   is this going to be a diy or are you wanting to hire it out?




 I agree with Frodo except if the toilet is not moving I wouldnt mess with that cast drain pipe. Just about everything else will be easier to replace right to the point it enters the cast drain line and there are many adapter fittings to make those connections easy. 

  Im a big fan of PEX for supply lines and I wont use anything else. It is very DIY friendly once you get a couple tools.


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## KatyE (Jan 29, 2015)

We would like to DIY, if it is feasible.
Are you talking about just drain lines and water lines, or are you including the toilet and/or stack?


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## frodo (Jan 29, 2015)

everything, you have some  leaky pipes. lets replace that stuff,  and you will be done with it.


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## nealtw (Jan 29, 2015)

I agree, it will be easier in the long run. Where is the washing machine moving to?


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## frodo (Jan 29, 2015)

nealtw said:


> I agree, it will be easier in the long run. Where is the washing machine moving to?




exactly,  cut it out,  start over,  bring it up to code, 

cu the cast off.  6'' above the floor and put a clean out.


couple of questions.  where is the kitchen sink drain?
 where is the washer/dryer drain?

what all is hooked to that stack?   

can you give me a layout of the house/  bathrooms/  kitchen/washer

what is in the basement?  1st floor?  2nd floor?  3rd?


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## KatyE (Jan 30, 2015)

Let's see....
The 2nd floor bathroom is directly above the 1st floor bath. The pipe you asked about--yes, that is the kitchen sink drain. The sink is right on the other side of the wall from the bathroom, but will be moved across the room in an eventual kitchen remodel. The washer doesn't drain into the stack. It sort of goes right into the floor, near the stack. I suppose it must connect somewhere to the sewer line. I can only tell you that we have never had any issues with it. The washer is located in the utility room (same room that the new hallway/entry space will be taken from, but a different spot in the room). That's all we have.
As for the leak, I know exactly where it is coming from. It is the tub faucet. 
Isn't replacing the stack big bucks? Or is that only if you have to pay for the labor? 
My husband and I talked it over last night when we realized that the tub was leaking again. I always hoped to get the bathroom done inside of 2 weeks....you know, like they do on t.v.   But we are just going to have to cut off the water supply to the tub for now, and work on demoing that area, then framing the new hallway/entry. At that point, we'll have to demo everything else, fix the plumbing, and then finish the room as we are able. It's not so much time (though spring is our busiest time because of kids' schedules), because I can do a lot of the work during the day. It's more the money. And honestly, the more we have to do, the longer it will take. I am okay with that, I guess, since my dad taught me to do the important things right. However, depending on how much this will cost, I don't know how soon I will be able to get started. I finance most of our home improvement projects by plasma donation. It's slow, but steady. Can anyone give me a ballpark for the stack, pipes, etc. that I will need? I do mean ballpark. Not looking for guarantees....just a target to shoot at so that I can have an idea when I can get started.  Who knows? It's always possible that we will get a little tax refund......


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## KatyE (Jan 30, 2015)

nealtw said:


> I agree, it will be easier in the long run. Where is the washing machine moving to?



The washing machine won't move. It is in the utility room. As you walk from the kitchen to the utility room, it is to the left, across from where the door to the new hallway/entry will be. It's a good spot and I don't plan to move it.


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## nealtw (Jan 30, 2015)

The distance to the new sink location in the kitchen, that might throw Frodo a curve.


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## KatyE (Jan 30, 2015)

The new sink will be no more than 10 feet from the current one. Maybe 6 feet from the washing machine plumbing.


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## nealtw (Jan 30, 2015)

So fifteen feet from from the stack. Can you have a look at the roof tomorrow and see if there are two stacks sticking up. Should be a big one near where the toilet stack is and hopefully a smaller one, above the kitchen sink.


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## frodo (Jan 30, 2015)

just a ballpark,  materials only,  no fixtures, no tools, 
 pvc pipe and fittings,pex pipe,  for bathroom,  and new drain to kitchen sink 


 replace waste stack  6'' above floor to ceiling of 1st floor.. around $500.00
this is without putting a pencil to anything, 

I suggest..first thing that is done,,the water going to that bathroom  be isolated  valved off.
so that the rest of the house can function while the bathroom is down.

2nd,   demo bathroom

3rd,  demo the waste stack and replace the stack  in one day..a weekend.
         so that the upstairs bath will not be down more than 1 day. 

4th    run waste lines in bathroom/vents

5th    run waste line to kitchen 

 6       run new water lines 

is the ceiling of the bathroom being removed and replaced?


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## frodo (Jan 30, 2015)

do you have windows paint on your pc ?
can you draw,,a floor plan  of your house ?  

here is a sheet of paper..


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## bud16415 (Jan 30, 2015)

Im not a pro but have rebuilt a few of these old places and to me that cast iron stack and drain has been working for 100 years and looks like it has several hundred more years left in it. The part above the basement floor is most likely in better shape than whats underground I would think. 

Seeing as how the OP is on a budget I would suggest giving them all the pros and cons of going both ways and let them pick what is in their budget and also skill level. 

Taking the stack down is also going to disrupt their second story bath during the project also.


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## frodo (Jan 30, 2015)

Mrs E.   can you explain to me.

  is the bathroom wall,  sitting on the concrete?   

is that pipe the toilet waste ?   12'' from the wall?   


where is the bathroom wall in relation to the concrete stem wall  and joists?

i need to know,  if that wall is accessible for a 2'' pipe , i suspect, it is not ,that is why i do not see any vents.


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## frodo (Jan 30, 2015)

.................


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## frodo (Jan 30, 2015)

list of fittings,  so you can chase prices, and get an idea

to replace waste stack
20' 4'' pvc sch 40 pipe
 1- 4''  c.o. tee with plug
  1 - 4x2  san tee
1--  4x2 wye
1--4x3 san tee
2-  4''   plastic x cast iron bands
............................
to not replace stack,  but cut in and replace/reposition fittings. 
3 - 4''  pl  x  4'' ci bands
2--2'' plastic x cast bands
10'  4 '' pipe  
1- 4x2 wye
...........................
pvc,  sch 40 fittings 
drain fittings

4x3  reducer,  
3''  combo
3x2 reducer
2''  90
2'' san tee
2'' ptrap
2x 1 1/2 bushing
1 1/2 trap adapter
4''  closet colllar
4x3 90

...
lav,  2'' st 45
2 x 1 1/2  san tee
1 1/2  90

kichen drain


2''90
2''45

.pipe

10' 3'' pvc
60' 2''
10' 1 1/2''
10'  4''

qt, glue,,qt  primer,    2 rolls  2 hole hanger strap,  

budget in,,$.50.00 for stuff forgoten


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## KatyE (Jan 30, 2015)

Okay, I have taken a few more pictures, and I will try to figure out how to add the labels and arrows. I will also work on getting the full layout pic for you. 

For now, before I forget (because I have to admit that I am getting overwhelmed), please just let me say, "THANK YOU"! You are all so helpful. I have looked at some other message boards that I would never post to, because a simple question tends to draw attacks and insults, rather than help. 

My dad could have given us some advice, but he died 10 years ago, before this project was even on our radar. My husband's dad is the type who probably knows, but never bothered to teach his sons, so my husband, though he can do the work, needs advice to know what to do and when. My husband works in the trucking industry, and is gone from 6 am to 7 pm each day (and that's when nothing goes wrong), plus drives on many Saturdays, just to keep the bills paid. So I try to figure out what needs to be done, how much it will cost, and do what I can until he has time to work on it with me. I have learned a lot over the last several years, just by doing. But this will be our first major plumbing project. And I have never so much as changed a faucet. So all that to say, I don't know what I'm doing, I don't even know the right terms most of the time, and I am pretty lost. You have been so helpful and patient, and I am grateful. Knowledge banishes fear, and I am learning from you. I just didn't want to forget to say thank you.


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## KatyE (Jan 30, 2015)

Okay...I figured it out. I looked at both sides of the roof. There is only one vent pipe, and this is it.


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## nealtw (Jan 30, 2015)

frodo said:


> .................



Frodo; will you be able to work a vent somewhere for the future kitchen change?
bedrooms upstairs.


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## nealtw (Jan 30, 2015)

Katy:
You can print Frodo's list and ask for a quote at a plumbing supply or lumber yard. Maybe just by email.


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## frodo (Jan 30, 2015)

hope so,  the vents,  are going to have to wait till the wall gets opened up
and she can tell us where the old vents are at.  i suspect,that the upstairs drain is wet venting the down stairs right now


my plan for the waste stack.  I have to meet code.

and it looks like the bathroom wall sits on the concrete sill.

so in order to get a drain up to the bathroom.  

this is what i propose,  

you are going to need to get a 4 1/2'' grinder with an abrasive wheel to cut the old cast iron
you will need thick leather gloves, i prefer a full face shield,

http://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/grinders-buffers.html

let me introduce you to harbor freight,  cheap tools, they will last long enough to to the job.  LOL


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## KatyE (Jan 30, 2015)

Okay, here are a few pictures that will hopefully make more sense of the basement situation. The foundation wall basically has a ledge at the same level as the bottom of the joists. The lav drain and water supply lines are sort of tucked behind the joist and above the ledge.


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## KatyE (Jan 30, 2015)

And here is the laundry drain. I just realized that the dishwasher is also tied into this. It is a portable dishwasher, but Jeff hooked it up like a permanent where the sink will eventually go. It has worked well and I don't have to block the sink every time the dishwasher runs.


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## frodo (Jan 30, 2015)

never mind,   you got it,,thanks for pictures


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## nealtw (Jan 30, 2015)

KatyE said:


> And here is the laundry drain. I just realized that the dishwasher is also tied into this. It is a portable dishwasher, but Jeff hooked it up like a permanent where the sink will eventually go. It has worked well and I don't have to block the sink every time the dishwasher runs.



The pile of dirt is likely hiding something we don't want to see but it look like the washer drain enters an open hole. If that's the case, it's not good, pack some rag or something around it to stop sewer gas from entering house.


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## frodo (Jan 30, 2015)

we can fix  that washer also,,,,piece of cake

why dont we start right here...get you feet wet on something easy

is that pipe in the ground a hub ?

if it is,  is it a 2'' hub or a 3'' hub

2'' is going to be about 4''  across and 3''  will be about 5''  4'' will be  around 6''

cause its bigger than the actual pipe


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## KatyE (Jan 30, 2015)

Okay, here are 3 layouts. I only did the area of the house that has any plumbing, as I assume that's all that matters. This area of the house is narrow, and three sides of the layout shown are exterior walls (only to the right, as indicated, are any other rooms).

The first is the current 1st floor, the 2nd is the future 1st floor, and the 3rd is the 2nd floor. The 2nd floor bathroom will eventually be remodeled, but there is no other layout possible, so nothing will change there.
The scale is not exact, but close. I just realized that the kitchen exterior wall is actually about 2 feet further out than the utility room exterior wall (bottom of picture). I always forget that.


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## KatyE (Jan 30, 2015)

frodo said:


> is that pipe in the ground a hub ?
> 
> if it is,  is it a 2'' hub or a 3'' hub
> 
> ...



I don't think it is a hub. But I took a few more pics just in case.

Just curious: The laundry drain has been there since before we moved here 13 years ago. Wouldn't we have noticed sewer gasses if that was a problem? Or had a backup of some sort? Also, I don't know if it is relevant, but there is a drain in the floor. This is what is referred to around here as a "Michigan basement"--we do have a concrete floor, but it is never meant to be finished. The concrete has channels carved into it that lead to the drain, so when we occasionally get some water in the basement in the spring, it ends up in that channel and then in the drain.


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## bud16415 (Jan 30, 2015)

Why don&#8217;t you keep the bathroom set up as is and put the new door coming in from the mud room? 

I would think if you are outside and need the bathroom it would seem quite normal having the door right there. To me it seems odd walking thru the kitchen into the laundry room and down a hall to get in the bath. Often when we have company we are in the kitchen cooking etc and guests have to go around us for the bathroom. You have a natural place for the door with a lot less work and cost and your utility room won&#8217;t be broken up into 3 areas.  You would get your nice long wall in the kitchen. I would add a door to the utility room if you don&#8217;t have one now. 

Just my thoughts after seeing the new and old layouts.


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## KatyE (Jan 30, 2015)

frodo said:


> replace waste stack  6'' above floor to ceiling of 1st floor.. around $500.00
> this is without putting a pencil to anything,
> 
> 
> ...



I missed this earlier. So you don't recommend replacing entire waste stack, all the way through second floor bath? I do remember something being done to the vent when our roof was replaced a few years ago, but I will have to check with my husband to see what it was.

And yes, the ceiling will be removed and replaced. It is plaster in bad shape, and previous owners just wallpapered over it.


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## nealtw (Jan 30, 2015)

I like Bud's idea.
There might be a trap in the floor drain if that is water we are looking at in the photo


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## frodo (Jan 30, 2015)

in the plan you posted, the future lay out.  the cabinet,  that sits next to the washer.  is that going to be a half wall?

or just the end of a cabinet.   i ask because.  if it is a half wall, and it is not on the slab,  but on the edge of it. we could put a drain  washer box  in that half wall, instead of draining into the basement


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## frodo (Jan 30, 2015)

KatyE said:


> I missed this earlier. So you don't recommend replacing entire waste stack, all the way through second floor bath?



the call is up to you,   if it was my home,  i would replace all the cast i could.

but,  if you want to try and save money..we can just cut out bare minimum

you can make up your mind after you see the inside of the pipes.  they are either clear or plugged. most likely junk in them

sounds like your washer drain is an area drain,,,we cant do anything to it.

at some point,  you do need to put a grate over the hole


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## nealtw (Jan 30, 2015)

If you change the stack up the the ceiling in the lower bathroom the rest could be changed out with the upper reno when it is done.


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## bud16415 (Jan 30, 2015)

Pull the toilet and have someone come out with a scope and take a look. Might be the best money you will spend on the whole project.


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## KatyE (Jan 30, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> Why don&#8217;t you keep the bathroom set up as is and put the new door coming in from the mud room?
> 
> I would think if you are outside and need the bathroom it would seem quite normal having the door right there. To me it seems odd walking thru the kitchen into the laundry room and down a hall to get in the bath. Often when we have company we are in the kitchen cooking etc and guests have to go around us for the bathroom. You have a natural place for the door with a lot less work and cost and your utility room won&#8217;t be broken up into 3 areas.  You would get your nice long wall in the kitchen. I would add a door to the utility room if you don&#8217;t have one now.
> 
> Just my thoughts after seeing the new and old layouts.



Totally agree with your thoughts. Unfortunately, the trap door access to the basement prevents it. The door lifts up out of the floor and swings toward the porch door. You then step onto the stairs going down to the basement. It has to be left open when someone is down there, because it would be very difficult to lift from below. So if someone were to open the trap door while someone else is in the bathroom, we could have a very bad accident. In my dreams, we would provide access to the basement from elsewhere in the house, but there really isn't another place in the house. We are stuck.

And yes, we do plan to add a door between the kitchen and utility room.


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## KatyE (Jan 30, 2015)

frodo said:


> in the plan you posted, the future lay out.  the cabinet,  that sits next to the washer.  is that going to be a half wall?
> 
> or just the end of a cabinet.   i ask because.  if it is a half wall, and it is not on the slab,  but on the edge of it. we could put a drain  washer box  in that half wall, instead of draining into the basement



That's just the kitchen cabinets.


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## KatyE (Jan 30, 2015)

nealtw said:


> If you change the stack up the the ceiling in the lower bathroom the rest could be changed out with the upper reno when it is done.



Okay. I guess I didn't realize we could connect new pvc to old cast iron. I suppose I was envisioning one long cast iron pipe. 

I was also envisioning much higher numbers. If the ballpark is in the $500 range, we will probably just go ahead and do it. It will take a few months to save up, because I want some wiggle room in the funds available. The last thing I need is a house with no bathrooms available. But I was thinking it would cost in the thousands, and that would take much, much longer.


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## KatyE (Jan 30, 2015)

frodo said:


> the call is up to you,   if it was my home,  i would replace all the cast i could.
> 
> but,  if you want to try and save money..we can just cut out bare minimum
> 
> ...



When we replace the stack, can we just connect the washer/kitchen sink/dishwasher drains into the new stack? I don't know what an area drain is. I assume it's bad? I'll be honest with you. I never noticed that the washer drained into the floor until I went down to take these pictures.


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## nealtw (Jan 30, 2015)

KatyE said:


> When we replace the stack, can we just connect the washer/kitchen sink/dishwasher drains into the new stack? I don't know what an area drain is. I assume it's bad? I'll be honest with you. I never noticed that the washer drained into the floor until I went down to take these pictures.



You can tie them all in, the problem he will be having is the vent. The vent is to provide air behind water, that stops the water in the trap from sucking out.
The fixture can only be X number of feet from the vent and you will be way over what ever it is for that size of pipe. A new one may have to go up thru the attic space or back to the bathroom via the ceiling in the kitchen.

Frodo said pvc pipe and fitting, don't be surprised if they want to sell abs instead. Up here we can't use pvc in the house, so that could be area code thing??


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## frodo (Jan 30, 2015)

good point.  where are you ?  differnt parts of country,  different codes.

I said the pvc,  was a ballpark figure, with out adding anything up..  take that list i gave you, go onto homedepot
or whoevers site,  and price out the materials.   after you get your total,  add 20% to  it for whatevers

the water pipeing,  we have not even touched that subject yet

I would like to install a drain for your washer,  BUT,  you have the washer sitting on a slab.  

if you can figure out how to give me a half wall  at the end of your cabinet


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## frodo (Jan 30, 2015)

KatyE said:


> When we replace the stack, can we just connect the washer/kitchen sink/dishwasher drains into the new stack?




new drains and vents


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## KatyE (Jan 30, 2015)

nealtw said:


> You can tie them all in, the problem he will be having is the vent. The vent is to provide air behind water, that stops the water in the trap from sucking out.
> The fixture can only be X number of feet from the vent and you will be way over what ever it is for that size of pipe. A new one may have to go up thru the attic space or back to the bathroom via the ceiling in the kitchen.
> 
> Frodo said pvc pipe and fitting, don't be surprised if they want to sell abs instead. Up here we can't use pvc in the house, so that could be area code thing??



I guess the vent thing is new to me, and I don't completely understand it, but I will run it by Jeff when he gets home. Do the fixtures drain to the current stack, and the vent ties in some other way?

Edited to say that I posted that before seeing Frodo's last message. There is a space next to the washer, where the drain goes now. It is set into the current wall between the kitchen and washer, and may provide what we need for the drain. I think just that space goes over the basement, rather than the slab.  Also, I may not be using the term "slab" correctly. It is off of the ground by maybe six inches. Not enough for a crawl space, but enough to run plumbing under it if need be.  Also, I think it is just a wood floor under the tile--not concrete.

And yes, there will be a wall behind the sink.


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## frodo (Jan 30, 2015)

a vent equalises the pressure in the system....blah blah blah

http://www.jlconline.com/plumbing/plumbing-venting-explained.aspx



put your finger over the end of your straw in your glass of coke,  pick the straw up.  coke stays in straw..no vent
 take your finger off of straw,  coke drains out...vent 

it also keeps sewer gas out of the house 

every fixture has to have a vent,  when you walk down the street,  look at the roofs of the houses.  usually on the back of the house.

the vent for your washer  and kitchen sink can go up to the attic. in the wall above the  utility area


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## nealtw (Jan 30, 2015)

KatyE said:


> I guess the vent thing is new to me, and I don't completely understand it, but I will run it by Jeff when he gets home. Do the fixtures drain to the current stack, and the vent ties in some other way?



Your stack goes up thru the roof, that allows the gases out but it also allow air in so that the traps don't vacumn the water out of the traps in the system.

The new location for the kitchen sink and proper set up for the washer will to far away.


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## frodo (Jan 30, 2015)

KatyE said:


> I guess the vent thing is new to me, and I don't completely understand it, but I will run it by Jeff when he gets home. Do the fixtures drain to the current stack, and the vent ties in some other way?
> 
> Edited to say that I posted that before seeing Frodo's last message. There is a space next to the washer, where the drain goes now. It is set into the current wall between the kitchen and washer, and may provide what we need for the drain. I think just that space goes over the basement, rather than the slab.  Also, I may not be using the term "slab" correctly. It is off of the ground by maybe six inches. Not enough for a crawl space, but enough to run plumbing under it if need be.  Also, I think it is just a wood floor under the tile--not concrete.



Do the fixtures drain to the current stack, and the vent ties in some other way?

yes,   a new drain line to the new kitchen location and washer  they will drain to the waste stack. 

where is the water heater?


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## KatyE (Jan 30, 2015)

The water heater is a few feet from the stack, basically under the current tub--opposite end from the faucet.

I took a couple pictures of the laundry area. Whether that works or not, we can build whatever we need for the drains. The kitchen will be a complete gut, as well. I hate knotty pine.


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## KatyE (Jan 30, 2015)

I think I get it now. So the vent and the stack aren't necessarily right together....just that my stack acts as a vent? So new vents need to be installed for the sink and washer, but that has nothing to do with the location of the stack, and they can still drain to the stack?  And honestly, if that's wrong, you can just say no and leave it at that. I like to understand things, but I don't need to take up all your time just because I don't get it. The straw explanation helped me understand what the vent is for, anyway. 
So, I feel like I have a decent idea where we have to start. Like I said, it will take a couple of months of saving pennies to be ready to go, but we can turn the water off to the tub in the mean time, and when we have the cash ready, we will start demo and get the stack replaced.
One other question: Since we are changing all the pipes and replacing the entire floor of the bathroom, does it really matter whether we move the toilet? Isn't the expense in the pipes and covering them up (walls, floor, etc.)? I mean, it seems like we're more or less starting from scratch. I had my mind set on the layout because I was trying to avoid unnecessary expense, but if upgrading the plumbing negates that goal, there might be a better layout available. Silver lining?


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## zannej (Jan 30, 2015)

Frodo beat me to the straw as an example of a vacuum. LOL. He explained it better than I could have, though.

One thing that I don't recall seeing mentioned is about the required slope of the pipes. Different sized pipes require a specific slope. For instance, the smaller pipes (1 1/4" to 2") require a 1/4" per foot drop (so every 4 feet the pipe should drop by one inch). I believe 3" and above need about 1/8" drop. But, this is to be determined by your state's plumbing code and other factors such as the number of fixtures attached also affect things.

Likewise, the vent pipes need to slope upward at least 1/4" per foot for horizontal runs. This slope allows air to travel up, but allows moisture build up to travel down.

There was a post about plumbing codes by state-- if you can find your state on the list and identify what code your state follows you should be able to find documents detailing the required size of pipes for fixtures as well as slope.

There is a maximum developed length allowed for horizontal pipes because if the run is too long, the water line will be above the trap weir and will create a seal that blocks airflow. In some states the maximum horizontal run of a 2" pipe (prior to reaching a vertical run) is 8' but in others it is 6' or even 5'. Keep in mind that a vent pipe should not go horizontal until it is at least 6" above the flood level of the highest fixture it serves.

I take it the trap for your washing machine drain is not above the floor? I know that technically it is supposed to be above the floor. There's a diagram somewhere of how a washing machine should be plumbed. I'll have to dig it up.

Another thing to make sure of is that you have a full 15" from the center of your toilet to the edge of your bathtub and also have that same distance from the center of toilet to edge of your sink. I believe your tub also needs at least 18" to 24" of clearance on at least one side for entry and egress. So if the toilet is closer than that on one edge, you need to have enough space in either the middle or other end of the tub. I hope that makes sense.

I hope I'm not repeating anything that was already said. I wish you the best of luck on this project.


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## frodo (Jan 31, 2015)

lets talk water pipe.  i suggest you go pex.  its affordable.

did you say you have  2 full baths and 1 half bath? 

that would be ..3 cold openings per full bath, 2 in 1/2 bath, 1 at kitchen, 1 at washer,  2 hose bibs
hot...  2 -- in per full baths,  1- in 1/2 bath, 1 in kitchen, 1 in washer  that is 19 openings

for a manifold block   that would be around  $250.00 plus 19 at 6 bucks each  =120+250+370  plus pipe  100==470 

crimp tool, !00.00  crimp rings  50.00 

600--700 bucks.  we can cut that cost by not using a manifold

we can knock off 150  by using a different manifold, 

http://screencast.com/t/al5kY5wka

http://screencast.com/t/1EwcMYi6

http://screencast.com/t/IwvOJEzIY


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## bud16415 (Jan 31, 2015)

KatyE said:


> Totally agree with your thoughts. Unfortunately, the trap door access to the basement prevents it. The door lifts up out of the floor and swings toward the porch door. You then step onto the stairs going down to the basement. It has to be left open when someone is down there, because it would be very difficult to lift from below. So if someone were to open the trap door while someone else is in the bathroom, we could have a very bad accident. In my dreams, we would provide access to the basement from elsewhere in the house, but there really isn't another place in the house. We are stuck.
> 
> And yes, we do plan to add a door between the kitchen and utility room.


 

I would suggest making one of your first priorities getting rid of the trap door. I did a little searching around and some information I found points to trap doors not complying with new codes or requiring fall protection (railings and such) that come up when they are open. Without knowing your total structure its hard to suggest another location for proper steps to the basement. Maybe some of the members here that are more familiar with code and home inspections will comment. Having a heavy door that might be more than you could lift may also evoke the confined space codes, Im not sure. As you get older will you really want to mess around with a door like that and of course it will become an issue if you ever resell. There are lots of things to conceder with that trap door swinging up and blocking egress, leaving a big hole when open, reaching across to close it and the chance of it falling shut.  

Could steps be put in where you want to make the new hallway to the bathroom?

One thing that makes me thing code might not like a trap door is the only places that seem to sell modern setups are overseas in the UK and such. 

Its hard to believe there is no other location that could be opened up and steps put in. 

I will caution you as the discussion is becoming very detailed right down to what fittings to use and pricing things out. Make sure the big plan is in place first and it is 100% what you want. If it is then thats great go for it. I know the plan is going to be try and do it all as a DIY project and that is great and that is what this site is all about. Just be certain of both of your abilities and have a realistic time line. I know I read someone say you can have that old stack out and a new one in within 8 hours and not have your second bath down for more than a day. That might be true for a crew with a truck full of tools and parts but as a home owner doing this in their spare time I dont see it getting done in a day on their first attempt at plumbing. I know your budget is restricted also and I wouldnt want to see you get any big surprise and not have the funding to keep moving ahead.


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## KatyE (Jan 31, 2015)

frodo said:


> lets talk water pipe.  i suggest you go pex.  its affordable.
> 
> did you say you have  2 full baths and 1 half bath?
> 
> ...



Just two full baths, no half.

So $600-$700 for the pipes, plus $500 for the stack? $1100-$1200 total? Well, it's more than I really want to spend on plumbing (it's more fun to buy crown moulding or something more visual), but if it needs to be done, we will do it. At this point, I think we need to finalize our plan, save our money, and in the meantime, cap off the water to the tub. It will be a few months before we can come up with that, unless we get a surprise tax refund (not holding my breath), so if the leak disappears, we will at least know where it was coming from. Then, when we demo and expose the stack, we can inspect it and make the final decision then. I would lean toward replacing it regardless, but with money being tight, we will have to see. 
Thank you so much for your help, walking me through this process and letting me know my options, as well as what we really need to address, whether now or later. I will take the lists to the hardware store, get a detailed budget, and work on saving for it. In the meantime, I will lurk and pick up as much knowledge as possible, and come back for more information when we are ready to get going. Thanks again!


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## frodo (Jan 31, 2015)

your welcome,  If you have any questions,  just holler. look forward to tackling the project.


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## zannej (Feb 4, 2015)

I would also suggest, if you are NOT moving your trapdoor for the basement, to get something like this to help lift it:
SUSPA® 100 LB Gas Spring/Prop/Strut/Shock (set of 2) C16-08054

Maybe not that exact one, but something similar to make it easier to open the hatch so nobody can get trapped. Ideally you would have the access somewhere else and have a vertical door that opens to it.


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