# Small Kitchen Floor Issues



## tk3000 (Jul 18, 2014)

Hello Folks, 

I have a house built in the 50s whose kitchen has sustained some water damage with water trapped inside the subfloor, etc. After sometime and effort the plumbing issues was solved, but in some instances I ended up prying up and pulling out some of the wood planks (I know it does not look like plywood, so I assuming they are wood planks, see pics) of the subfloor (or maybe underlayment; not sure what they used as underlayment back in the 50s) creating an uneven surface, but the subfloor itself seems to be solid and in good shape. Is there a straightforward way to even out the surface?


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## CallMeVilla (Jul 18, 2014)

You are right ... looks like plywood to me.  I would lay down 1/4" Hardie-Board in a bed of thinset to stabilize the floor.  Ordinarily, you don't need thinset because you are using an ample supply of screws.  Either way could work, depending on how wavy your floor is.

Here is a basic video to help you.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zSHQdy8MVM[/ame]


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## tk3000 (Jul 19, 2014)

CallMeVilla said:


> You are right ... looks like plywood to me.  I would lay down 1/4" Hardie-Board in a bed of thinset to stabilize the floor.  Ordinarily, you don't need thinset because you are using an ample supply of screws.  Either way could work, depending on how wavy your floor is.
> 
> Here is a basic video to help you.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zSHQdy8MVM



Thanks for the response. The wood subfloor has missing parts (it has been delaminated), and thus I would like to fill it in with some material to even it out (at first I considered wood shims, but that would too much work and prone to imperfection). Would thinset be work well with wood when the wood expands and compress? 

Would it be ok to install the backer board on the easily accessible floor only, and not having to remove the kitchen cabinetry to install backer board under them as well (too much work I would imagine).


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## CallMeVilla (Jul 19, 2014)

Depending on how much is missing, you might consider cutting out a larger piece and replacing the bad area.  Just cut to the middle of the floor joist so you can re-screw the new piece to solid framing.

After fixing the bad pockets, I would still stabilize with Hardie Board because it will act as an integrated system, locking the floor into a strong, single plane ... then you can use any finish flooring afterwards with great confidence.


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## beachguy005 (Jul 20, 2014)

tk3000 said:


> Would it be ok to install the backer board on the easily accessible floor only, and not having to remove the kitchen cabinetry to install backer board under them as well (too much work I would imagine).





If the floor under them is ok, you can tile up to them.  That's the way it's done all the time on floor replacement.
You may want to pull out the appliances to tile under them but be sure you have enough space over the top of them to reinstall.  Usually that's an issue for the dishwasher and sometimes the refrigerator, if it has a cabinet over it, when you add an inch or so of new flooring.


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## CallMeVilla (Jul 20, 2014)

GOOD POINT, Beach ... People screw up on dishwashers all the time.  Either they leave them in place and tile them in like King Tutt ... or they pull them out, tile underneath and discover they don't have enough height to put them back into the cabinet!

Check your appliance heights!  I prefer tiling under all appliance locations.  The little bit of extra effort is well worth it.


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## tk3000 (Jul 21, 2014)

Awesome, I will make sure I do not do the dish washer spot. I bought some utility shims (larger ones) to fill in the spots with missing wood, and since I don not expect it to be perfect I would use thinset to make it more even.  Once I screw the shims in, and apply a layer of thing set on the wood subfloor, the next step would be to lay down the backer boards to make it ready to install ceramic tiles. 

I am planing on using thinset with latex given that it is a wood subfloor. Wouldn't the thinset fill the grooves on the wood subfloor and thus make it difficult to expand and contract. Should the wood shims be somewhat spaced as well to allow for expansion and contraction? 

Thanks!


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## Rusty (Jul 21, 2014)

CallMeVilla said:


> You are right ... looks like plywood to me.  I would lay down 1/4" Hardie-Board in a bed of thinset to stabilize the floor.  Ordinarily, you don't need thinset because you are using an ample supply of screws.  Either way could work, depending on how wavy your floor is.
> 
> Here is a basic video to help you.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zSHQdy8MVM



Sorry, but you always need thinset under the CBU.


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## nealtw (Jul 21, 2014)

This floor should be checked, floor joist length , size and spacing, just to make sure you are not aiming for dissapointment.


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## tk3000 (Jul 21, 2014)

nealtw said:


> This floor should be checked, floor joist length , size and spacing, just to make sure you are not aiming for dissapointment.



There are some very large nails which I assume are nailed to the floor joists, so I would follow the pattern. But I can go down to the Hells Tunnel (craw space) and double check on that, actually I will do that as I screw everything to see if the nails are coming out of the subfloor or going into the joists


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## slownsteady (Jul 21, 2014)

> ...actually I will do that as I screw everything to see if the nails are coming out of the subfloor or going into the joists



you will get a feeling for that pretty quick without going under. The screws that miss will probably keep turning after they are fully sunk.


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## nealtw (Jul 21, 2014)

Tricky way to measure floor joists, I use a tape measure.


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## Rusty (Jul 22, 2014)

CallMeVilla said:


> Depending on how much is missing, you might consider cutting out a larger piece and replacing the bad area.  Just cut to the middle of the floor joist so you can re-screw the new piece to solid framing.
> 
> After fixing the bad pockets, I would still stabilize with Hardie Board because it will act as an integrated system, locking the floor into a strong, single plane ... then you can use any finish flooring afterwards with great confidence.



The only flooring you can put over hardi board is ceramic. And the hardi MUST have thinset under it. CBU adds no strength at all to a floor. It and the thinset are to prevent voids.


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## tk3000 (Jul 22, 2014)

samfloor said:


> The only flooring you can put over hardi board is ceramic. And the hardi MUST have thinset under it. CBU adds no strength at all to a floor. It and the thinset are to prevent voids.



Does that mean that it is not necessary to aim at the spots with a joist. It does make sense considering that the screws designed to CBU are rather short. 

But if the voids and gaps are not too thin (given some delaminated parts of the wood due to water damage), should not one use some large wood shim to help fill the void?

thanks


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## Rusty (Jul 23, 2014)

I suppose you could use the shims. And you do NOT want the CBU screws into the joists.


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## slownsteady (Jul 23, 2014)

> But if the voids and gaps are not too thin (given some delaminated parts of the wood due to water damage), should not one use some large wood shim to help fill the void?



I think i would be more concerned that the delam plywood isn't going to have enough structural 'integrity'. Might consider replacing plywood sheets


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## tk3000 (Jul 24, 2014)

slownsteady said:


> I think i would be more concerned that the delam plywood isn't going to have enough structural 'integrity'. Might consider replacing plywood sheets



The need to possibly use shims is simply to level it and fill some voids. The depth of the voids would be max of 1/4 inch (also taking into account the floor and underlayment removed). 

The place was vacant for many months and the main water valve was leaking (small droplets) for a long time, so it was a perfect environment for mold, etc, and of course some water to deposit into the subfloor. And I know about places that have been totally flooded and they saved the subfloor. The subfloor seems to be sound and safe, but I can not be 100% of that; besides I do not have a track history of the place ( I bought it 3 months ago)

If it was up to me nothing in a house would be made out of lumber to begin with. Lower load bearing; organic, so prone to deteriorate; and can not see a water. In all the countries I lived before, such things are all made out of concrete


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## tk3000 (Jul 24, 2014)

Below are some pics:


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## slownsteady (Jul 25, 2014)

> The need to possibly use shims is simply to level it and fill some voids. The depth of the voids would be max of 1/4 inch (also taking into account the floor and underlayment removed).



Maybe you are right. But 1/4 inch is 33% of 3/4 inch plywood.


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## bud16415 (Jul 25, 2014)

I was putting laminate in our kitchen last winter and was going over those old floors that had all kinds of bad spots with missing stuff. I mixed up a few bags of the floor leveler in a mortar pan and filled in all the low spots. Worked great.

You can see some of the places filled in this thread. 

http://www.houserepairtalk.com/f45/how-buy-fixer-up-house-home-17318/


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## Jungle (Jul 25, 2014)

Yes i had this problem, subfloor was serious unlevel.
 First i would take out anything rotten or looks bad poor structure. Then use lumber 2x10 x 12' you can shim it up by cutting pieces of lumber or using small bits of ply wood. You should get a laser level. Make sure the lumber you buy is very straight of course. You could measure from the ceiling, assuming that's level.


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## tk3000 (Jul 27, 2014)

Jungle said:


> Yes i had this problem, subfloor was serious unlevel.
> First i would take out anything rotten or looks bad poor structure. Then use lumber 2x10 x 12' you can shim it up by cutting pieces of lumber or using small bits of ply wood. You should get a laser level. Make sure the lumber you buy is very straight of course. You could measure from the ceiling, assuming that's level.



I have some lumber that can be used, and I also have a larger level to help in finding the right level. I happen to have a laser level too, but a basic type (I normally use it to cut drywall (so no need to scribe/mark the wall itself with a pencil).

I also plan one using liquid nail and small wood nails to hold the shims to the subfloor, then I am going to lay down the backer board with thinset mortar. 

There are parts of the floor in this house that seem to have several layers of  old floor on top of each other; basically they did not bother to uninstall the  older floor and simply install newer ones on top of the older ones (since the 50s). Is that common? So many layers...

I also found lots of staples throughout the floor with some pieces of what may be carpet fiber and foam attached to them. In the following pic, the baseboard was removed and I found that thing (seems carpet fiber) under the backboard and on the corner of the wall): 







thanks!


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## Rusty (Jul 28, 2014)

Not strange at all to find several layers. I once tore up a floor where they had put plywood over carpet and installed vinyl. It didn't work.


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## beachguy005 (Jul 28, 2014)

Don't know why you're using shims to fill any voids.  Frankly, if the floor joists were sound I would of just used Self-Leveling Underlayment on the whole floor and been done with it.


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## bud16415 (Jul 28, 2014)

beachguy005 said:


> Don't know why you're using shims to fill any voids. Frankly, if the floor joists were sound I would of just used Self-Leveling Underlayment on the whole floor and been done with it.


 
i suggested that in post 20 also :beer:


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