# Where do I need a GFI in my kitchen?



## Chris (Oct 20, 2014)

In my mountain house they had some fishy stuff going on. In the kitchen they had a GFI on every plug. I know it probably doesn't hurt but I am wondering where they are required or wanted/ not wanted?


----------



## Speedbump (Oct 20, 2014)

I was told that one per circuit is all that is needed.  Also; I understand it has to be on the outlet nearest the sink in kitchen and bathroom.  In my humble opinion they are about as useful as a backflow preventer on every house.  I don't know how many contamination issues these things have prevented, but I'll bet there have been a lot of lawsuits over people tripping over the damned things.


----------



## bud16415 (Oct 20, 2014)

I have every outlet in the kitchen GFI protected one for every circuit. GFIC outlets can also be used to bring older wiring that didn&#8217;t have a ground wire up to code. There is no need in either case to put one on every outlet that I could see. The first one the feed comes to attaches to the line connection and the rest branch off the load connection.


----------



## havasu (Oct 20, 2014)

I'm still lost when trying to configure the GFCI and the "line" versus "load" stuff.


----------



## Chris (Oct 20, 2014)

Just for informational reasons, why do we use a GFI? Isn't that also the reason we have breakers?


----------



## bud16415 (Oct 20, 2014)

No Breakers are like what fuses used to be. They do not stop the power until you reach the rating. Say you have a 15 amp breaker if you grab onto the hot wire in one hand and the common in the other your body has a resistance that will determine how much current flows thru you. Chances are you will not reach 15 and just keep passing current. A GFIC looks at the current in the hot leg and the common and they should be the same. If there is another path to ground such as you the hot wire will be carrying the current thru the device and also thru you where the common will only be carrying the current thru the device. As soon as the GFIC measures the imbalance it cuts the power out to everything. You will only see current for a very brief instant and do not have to come anywhere close to what the breaker is rated at.


Another way to look at it is when you start plugging a bunch of George Forman cookers and electric fry pans and coffee makers and toasters all into one line in your kitchen you will trip the breaker and not the GFIC as nothing was ever out of balance. 

They do two different jobs the breaker protects your wires from melting down your GFIC protects you.


----------



## bud16415 (Oct 20, 2014)

havasu said:


> I'm still lost when trying to configure the GFCI and the "line" versus "load" stuff.


 


Many people wire outlets by bringing the power to the first outlet with one set of the screws on the outlet (there are two sets) and then go on to the next outlet using the other set of screws. Thats kind of what line and load are like only GFIC are made and labeled to be used that way. 

The correct way I believe even though its done both ways is to make a pig tail connection in the back of a standard outlet box. And just bring a single white and black out to the outlet. The advantage being if you ever need to replace it the whole string wont go down and when you replace you just deal with two wires.


----------



## carnuck (Oct 20, 2014)

When we first moved to our place if you touched the fridge and the stove you got a low zap. If you stood for maybe a minute like that, then your muscles would tense up and it would be hard to talk. I fixed the problem (loose neutral in the stove wiring) but since the previous owner had multiple heart attacks before selling, I wonder if they were related?


----------



## Chris (Oct 20, 2014)

So I have a plug just above and a maybe a foot away from each side of my sink. Do I need a GFI in both of those or just the first plug on the Circuit? 

Will it hurt to have a GFI on each? Is it overkill? Will it help anything?


----------



## kok328 (Oct 20, 2014)

Quiet an assortment of answers and questions here for a product that has been on the market for years.
We first have to ask what is the circuit layout for the kitchen.
It might be possible but, not likely that all the receptacles are from different circuits in which case each circuit should be protected per code requirements.
I'm not a big fan of "grandfathering" electrical.  Changes in electrical code are for safety reasons.  I'm not saying that everyone should update as code changes but, consider them as a safety upgrades when possible.
Also, be sure not to have the refrigerator on a GFCI protected circuit because if the outlet trips, you will loose all your food.  The fridge should ideally be on a dedicated circuit but, if that is not possible, the fridge outlet should be before the GFCI outlet.


----------



## kok328 (Oct 20, 2014)

Chris said:


> So I have a plug just above and a maybe a foot away from each side of my sink. Do I need a GFI in both of those or just the first plug on the Circuit?
> 
> Will it hurt to have a GFI on each? Is it overkill? Will it help anything?



If these outlets by the sink are on the same circuit, you only need one GFCI outlet on the outlet closest to the line power feed.  Just make sure you wire it up correctly paying attention to "Line" vs. "Load".  If they are on different circuits then you need two GFCI outlets.

GFCI outlets are expensive in comparison to a regular duplex outlets and they can get too sensitive with age, resulting in nuisance trips.


----------



## Chris (Oct 20, 2014)

I'm not worried about cost, I just want a proper working system. When I go back to the mountains this weekend I will see what is on what circuit and go from there.


----------



## nealtw (Oct 20, 2014)

Depending on the age of the house. They used to bring 2 circuits on a three wire, cut the tabs on the outlets and run red to the tops and black to the bottom. This is a head scratcher with gifs, You have to seperate the 2 circuits, easy enough but you have to make double sure you have found them all before turning anything on.


----------



## JoeD (Oct 20, 2014)

You need to add your location. It makes a difference.
In the USA, for kitchen small appliance branch circuits, you do not a GFCI receptacle at each location. You do need GFCI protection at each location. One GFCI receptacle can protect all the other receptacles on the circuit if you use the LOAD terminals.

In Canada you only need GFCI protection within 1.6 meters of the sink.


----------



## Chris (Oct 20, 2014)

I'm in beautiful California.


----------



## havasu (Oct 20, 2014)

Chris said:


> I'm in beautiful California.



Land of the fruits and nuts!:trophy:


----------



## Chris (Oct 21, 2014)

Don't forget you're my neighbor. Which one are you?


----------



## nealtw (Oct 21, 2014)

A nut is a fruit composed of a hard shell and a seed, which is generally edible. Wikipedia


----------



## kok328 (Oct 21, 2014)

California is in a world all by itself.
Make sure GFI's don't cause cancer in CA.


----------



## Chris (Oct 21, 2014)

I'm sure they do. I will also have to get permission From all my neighbors before I can install. Also have a plan drawn up by a civil engineer.


----------



## slownsteady (Oct 21, 2014)

Protestors will be assembling there in the morning.


----------



## Chris (Oct 22, 2014)

I woke up and there are people with signs in my front yard.

Pretty sad all the big cities here bring a bad name to our little towns.


----------



## slownsteady (Oct 22, 2014)

Boy, they look angry.....


----------



## Chris (Oct 22, 2014)

They do! I better not tell them how many I have.


----------



## havasu (Oct 22, 2014)

I told you. It is not just me who is still confused on that damn "Line Vs. Load" crap!


----------



## donmorgan (Oct 22, 2014)

The GFCI needs to be the first outlet in the branch circuit from the circuit breaker box. The other outlets that are connected to it will be protected by the GFCI.


----------



## bud16415 (Oct 22, 2014)

It depends on how the wiring was done. In modern wiring yes you go from the breaker to first outlet with GFI and then daisy chain all the others in a line. Some of the old methods were to do what they call octopus wiring. Go to a light say then off to each outlet from there. 

In my house whoever wired the basement came off the breaker to a GFI outlet about a foot from the panel. Then ran all the basement lights off that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Home Repair


----------



## nealtw (Oct 22, 2014)

He'll figure it out


----------



## CallMeVilla (Oct 22, 2014)

Maybe we can sort this out ...

1.  Simply, the GFCI will trip if you are receiving a shock.  It is a spring loaded device which senses a dangerous load situation and acts faster than you can move.

2.  A typical breaker is thermally activated when it sees an overload on a circuit exceeding its rating, e.g., 15A or 20A.  It takes time to heat the breaker unless it is a dead short.

3.  How many GFCIs are needed?  In residential, I have one per circuit at the "front" of the circuit to protect the full run.  While I have heard conflicting remarks, I now believe multiple GFCIs can be put on the same circuit but they add nothing.  Here is a caution ... Modern code requires a separate circuit for your refrigerator.  Why?  If there is only one circuit to all appliances in the kitchen and one GFCI at the front of the run, if the GFCI trips (due to refrigerator startup?), you might lose power to the refrig ... and ruin your food.  In kitchen remodeling DIY, it is probably best to run that extra circuit just for extra protection.

4.  As to "Line" versus "Load", that is easy.  Your power-in from the main is your LINE power and must be attached to those lugs as indicated on the back of the GFCI.  If you are doing a longer run to another receptacle, those wires attach at the LOAD position as indicated on the GFCI.  The LOAD wires then become the LINE feed for the next GFCI receptacle as if it had originated from the main.  If you choose not to use additional GFCIs downstream, just connect the LOAD wires as you would with any receptacle.


----------



## havasu (Oct 23, 2014)

That diagram really helped me. Thank you for finally making it sink it!


----------



## CallMeVilla (Oct 23, 2014)

One more GFCI item that IS important to share ... Pay VERY CLOSE attention to the labeling on the backside of the GFCI as to where the LINE and LOAD connections need to be made.

Older GFCIs have the LINE and LOAD connections opposite where the newer GFCIs require it!  Newer GFCIs have the LINE connection on top.  Older GFCIs reverse this, putting the LOAD connection on top.

Attention to detail is essential.  Today, I replaced a number of older GFCIs with this feature ... and could have made a real mess of the place had I knot known about this.


----------



## Chris (Oct 24, 2014)

I'm at my mountain house now. Tomorrow after hunting I will check it out.


----------



## JoeD (Oct 24, 2014)

New in box GFCI have a label over the LOAD connections that needs to be removed before use.


----------



## hornetd (Dec 29, 2014)

kok328 said:


> Quiet an assortment of answers and questions here for a product that has been on the market for years.
> We first have to ask what is the circuit layout for the kitchen.
> It might be possible but, not likely that all the receptacles are from different circuits in which case each circuit should be protected per code requirements.
> I'm not a big fan of "grandfathering" electrical.  Changes in electrical code are for safety reasons.  I'm not saying that everyone should update as code changes but, consider them as a safety upgrades when possible.
> Also, be sure not to have the refrigerator on a GFCI protected circuit because if the outlet trips, you will loose all your food.  The fridge should ideally be on a dedicated circuit but, if that is not possible, the fridge outlet should be before the GFCI outlet.



The difficulty there is that the code requires that all of the counter top receptacles in the kitchen and dining room must be GFCI protected.  If the plug for the refrigerator is behind the fridge then it is no longer a counter top receptacle even if it is on the same individual branch circuit as other counter top receptacles.  

--
Tom Horne


----------



## nealtw (Dec 29, 2014)

hornetd said:


> The difficulty there is that the code requires that all of the counter top receptacles in the kitchen and dining room must be GFCI protected.  If the plug for the refrigerator is behind the fridge then it is no longer a counter top receptacle even if it is on the same individual branch circuit as other counter top receptacles.
> 
> --
> Tom Horne



As I understand it, the fridge should not be on a gfi and it should have it's own crcuit. But if it were on the same circuit, just feed it with line power and bypass the gfi.


----------



## frodo (Dec 31, 2014)

gfci needs to be installed with 3'  of a wet area.  {sink}


----------



## speedy petey (Dec 31, 2014)

frodo said:


> gfci needs to be installed with 3'  of a wet area.  {sink}


PLEASE check your fact before making seemingly flat-out statement such as this. This is 100% WRONG.

There used to be a rule where kitchen receptacles within 6' had to be GFI protected. Now it is ALL receptacles serving counter tops.


----------



## JoeD (Dec 31, 2014)

Since no location is stated it could be correct. In Canada GFCI is only needed within 1.5m of the sink.


----------



## nealtw (Dec 31, 2014)

JoeD said:


> Since no location is stated it could be correct. In Canada GFCI is only needed within 1.5m of the sink.



Joe, dosn't that change when you have 20 amp outlets?


----------



## JoeD (Dec 31, 2014)

NO. Any receptacle within 1.5m of a sink needs GFCI. We have the option to use 20 amp T slots or split 15 amp receptacles in the kitchen. The 20 amp option is used so that a GFCI receptacle can be used instead of a double GFCI breaker that would be required for a split wired 15 amp circuit.


----------



## frodo (Dec 31, 2014)

I would like to say the statement i made was based on canadian code.   THEN i would be correct.
 BUT,  Nope.    I was misinformed,  or rather I was Wrong.    Damn,  I hate that!!!!!!

I knew better than to answer a electricians thread,  every time I do, I get shocked


----------



## oldognewtrick (Dec 31, 2014)

frodo said:


> I knew better than to answer a electricians thread,  every time I do, I get shocked



I know how you feel, if I could see electricity I could better understand it, but I do know one thing for certain about electricity, I don't like how it tastes.


----------



## KULTULZ (Oct 18, 2015)

I believe current code as (I am not an electrician)-

Current (?) code calls for a *minimum* of two 20A GFCI SABC (Small Appliance Branch Circuits) on the kitchen counter(s), both (or all) GFCI protected. The GFCI receptacle would be placed at the beginning of the circuit(s) to protect all downstream receptacles. A refrigerator can be on one of these circuits and bypass the GFCI receptacle (receptacle before GFCI or wired off line side) *or* have its' own dedicated 15A or 20A circuit. 

The receptacle for a gas range can also come off one of these circuits on the line side as it is not recommended to be on GFCI (igniter).

A DW and GD has to have its' own (each) 20A GFCI circuit.

I am open for correction if misinformed-


----------

