# Basement Framing for HVAC



## jjohnston

I am planning to start the framing of my Basement.  I have a couple questions about HVAC and ducting.

1) Do I need 6" walls to drop my cold air return ducts through (I think code here requres they be ducted, not use the wall cavity)?

2) My Basement has a main cold air return duct that runs the full length of the basement, can I just punch a hole in that and run my ducts down the wall?  that main duct seems to go directly over the walls I would drop the duct down.


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## nealtw

It is about the square inches, if one cavity in a 2x4 wall is not enough, do 2 cavities or move the stud over for bigger cavity.
I have never seen duct run down the wall for return air. But if you have to cut the hole before you build the wall.


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## kok328

Re: the main, yes you would tie in to that but be sure to install a manual damper in each tie in branch.


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## jjohnston

I"m debating having an HVAC company do it...  I don't know a lot about HVAC.  But if I do the framing, I did confirm with an HVAC place that they do need to put oval ducting down inside the walls now.  they said they use a 3.5" oval duct that works in a 4" studded wall.  But now my question is, if its 3.5" I would need to cut a 3.5" hole in my top plate, and code says I can't cut more than half the wood out without some kind of metal reinforcement.  Can I still do this?  I don't know how strong 1/4" of wood on either side of that duct would be.

Also, in framing, I am looking at the below for my top and bottom plate.  it says its #2.  but my 8' long studs are stud grade.  am I OK using #2 grade for my top plates?  I'm planning on doing a double top plate.

https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/lumber-boards/studs/2-x-4-lumber/p-1444422747483.htm


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## nealtw

I thought you were talking about return air.
Heavy metal strips for bearing walls, not so important for non bearing wall but absolutely needed to protect wire are plumbing from drywall screws.


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## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> I"m debating having an HVAC company do it...  I don't know a lot about HVAC.  But if I do the framing, I did confirm with an HVAC place that they do need to put oval ducting down inside the walls now.  they said they use a 3.5" oval duct that works in a 4" studded wall.  But now my question is, if its 3.5" I would need to cut a 3.5" hole in my top plate, and code says I can't cut more than half the wood out without some kind of metal reinforcement.  Can I still do this?  I don't know how strong 1/4" of wood on either side of that duct would be.
> 
> Also, in framing, I am looking at the below for my top and bottom plate.  it says its #2.  but my 8' long studs are stud grade.  am I OK using #2 grade for my top plates?  I'm planning on doing a double top plate.
> 
> https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/lumber-boards/studs/2-x-4-lumber/p-1444422747483.htm


Top and bottom plates are usually wet lumber as it is easy to straighten them out as you nail them in place. If you order studs the will be pre cut for standard wall height and cost more. And most times don't fit in the basement. If you have to re cut them you may as well just buy 8 footer.

2 and better is the standard for all home construction.
Sill gasket between wood and concrete, always.


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## Snoonyb

What is the intended occupancy of the individual rooms that would require an individual return for each space and what manner are you intending to seal each space so that a centrally placed return would not be sufficient?

If your walls are non-bearing, there is no need for double top plates.

Dimensional lumber, IE., 2X4, is 1.5" X 3.5", and is why the HVAC CO is stating that dimension for their duct.


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## jjohnston

I guess my reason for double top plates are, length.  max length I can get is 20' for wood locally.  So I need to build walls in multiple sections.  Code says I need to stager my top plates for strength, so I figured, double wall plate, have the top plate extend 2' past the 2nd top plate, and I fulfilled my requirement.  

My basement measures 8'4" from the cement to the bottom of the floor joists above.  So either I have a 1" gap or I do a double top plate, and cut the 8' studs down a half inch?  but am open to suggestions of better ideas.

Code changed here in Minnesota in 2015, that now all cold air returns need to be ducted.  we can no longer use the space between the studs...

For dropping the return air duct down the wall, do I simply leave a gap in the top plate, or try and cut it out?  or does the HVAC person do the cutting?

Intended occupancy is 1 bedroom, 1 bathroom, 1 media room, and 1 family room.  I think code states that all bedrooms need to have a supply and a return.  My media room will be sealed off from the rest of the basement, so its a separate room.  Not completely air tight, but as tight as I can get it without going crazy about it.


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## jjohnston

Oh, and do I care about premium grade stud vs standard grade stud?  its about 60 cents more for premium per stud...


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## Gary

Do they say why you can't use the wall space? Not doubting it, just wondering why. I'm guessing it has something to do with fire prevention?


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## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> Oh, and do I care about premium grade stud vs standard grade stud?  its about 60 cents more for premium per stud...



Not sure what that means but if you are buying pre-cut studs I like the finger jointed ones made out of scraps because they are straighter and real lumber.
They are not to be used for horizontal.
If you are dealing with the big box stores and you are buying pre cut. Measure them. Canadian standard studs are 92 1/4  US standard stud 92 5/8.
They have been known to just sub one for the other.

Do you know how to level down from upstairs so everything is square in the basement.


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## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> Oh, and do I care about premium grade stud vs standard grade stud?  its about 60 cents more for premium per stud...



OK found a listing for LUMBER and PREMIUM LUMBER, still don't know what that means.
The cheap and standard stuff we use is SPF 2 and better and I suspect that is the cheap lumber but if it is number three, spend the $.60.


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## jjohnston

Yeah, it has to do with energy efficiency.  all ducts now need to be completely sealed by either welding, adhesive, etc.   maximum air leakage can't exceed something like 2% over the entire system.

Its same thing for plumbing.  all hot water lines need to be insulated from right out of the water heater, all the way through the walls to the faucet.


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## Gary

ahh, that makes sense I guess.


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## jjohnston

lol both say stud grade or better.  the only difference I could see is one says Species may vary among Spruce, Pine and Fir, the other just says varies from pine to fir.  so no spruce in the cheaper ones...


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## jjohnston

nealtw said:


> Not sure what that means but if you are buying pre-cut studs I like the finger jointed ones made out of scraps because they are straighter and real lumber.
> They are not to be used for horizontal.
> If you are dealing with the big box stores and you are buying pre cut. Measure them. Canadian standard studs are 92 1/4  US standard stud 92 5/8.
> They have been known to just sub one for the other.
> 
> Do you know how to level down from upstairs so everything is square in the basement.



level down?  Umm... I guess not, didn't know that was a thing...

I do know my unfinished basement has its ceiling drywalled already due to the new fire codes


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## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> level down?  Umm... I guess not, didn't know that was a thing...
> 
> I do know my unfinished basement has its ceiling drywalled already due to the new fire codes


Good then the fire stopping between walls and floor system is done. Are your outside walls finished and if not how high is the foundation?


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## jjohnston

outside walls are not finished, that will be my first step.  I believe the block goes up about 8' 3" until hitting the current drywall, then the space between the drywall and the block has spray foam filling the void. but I will measure to be sure.


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## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> outside walls are not finished, that will be my first step.  I believe the block goes up about 8' 3" until hitting the current drywall, then the space between the drywall and the block has spray foam filling the void. but I will measure to be sure.



That's ok I was just thinking full height half height or curb.

Best laid plans get screwed by someone else doing a good thing.

We always got there before the drywallers so we fire stopped with the top plate using a 2x8 against the sill plate on top of the wall but your spray foam did that in.
If you have an interior wall near the staircase, work your long lines off that and measure over to the outside and check that for straight and use the 3,4, or 6,8,10 to make sure the other walls are square to that. 
We always leave a 1" gap from wall to foundation but with a block wall you can get closer, but not touching.


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## jjohnston

I want to do 2" thick rigid insulation again sedan the block, then 2x4 wall framed right against the insulation.


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## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> I want to do 2" thick rigid insulation again sedan the block, then 2x4 wall framed right against the insulation.



That will work tape the joints and that is the vapour barrier use a 6" blue skin 
Under the wall and up the foam and that really seals it.
https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.blueskin-weather-barrier-6-inch.1000403475.html


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## jjohnston

Oh nice!  I'll look into that!  Would that replace the sil gasket or whatever it's called?

How long does it typically take for a beginner to frame a 16' x21' room?


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## nealtw

I haven't been a beginner for a long time. Yes that would be a replacement for sill gasket. Code is anything that will be a moisture break, tar paper, sheet poly. Sill gasket is cheap easy and is already 3 1/2" wide.

4 walls how may against the foundation? Any existing walls already built.


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## jjohnston

1 wall is already framed.  I need to run 2 on exterior wall 21' side.  And 1 in the middle.  Will need to figure out how to attach that to the floor joists above, because that one 16' wall I think falls in between floor joists.


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## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> 1 wall is already framed.  I need to run 2 on exterior wall 21' side.  And 1 in the middle.  Will need to figure out how to attach that to the floor joists above, because that one 16' wall I think falls in between floor joists.



14 1/2" + - blocks between joist every 3 ft or so and each end will be fine for holding the wall and to hang drywall.

Check that code again on the return ducts, make sure is doesn't just apply to attic and crawlspace.


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## jjohnston

Ok.  So nail a board between the floor joists every 3' then nail the top plate to those...?

Do you think I could frame that 1 room in 3 8 hour days?

I know it's hard to say because everyone works at different speeds and has different abilities...


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## nealtw

Oops forgot about the drywall, I will get to it

Let's say the better part of of a day to glue up foam.
Measure and mark the floor 3 3/4" from foam at each end of the foundation walls, check those marks to the existing walls, you may need to decide where to hide the errors.
Find center of the room and mark 1 3/4" on each side of center in two places.
Find a real straight 2x4 and with a level transfer those marks to the ceiling
Two people needed to pull and snap a line with chalk line. All the lines.
Lay out the bottom plate with the gasket and attach to the floor unless you are using hand driven concrete nails leave that for later.
Starting in the inside corner, and put an X between 0 and 1 1/2" and a mark at 23 1/4 and an X on the far side of that. Tack a nail there and  hook the tape to the nail and mark ever 24 inches and end with a an X on the other inside corner.

Or 15 1/4" and every 16" if you like, not needed in non bearing walls

Cut another set of plates to match the bottom plates and transfer the layouts on them, nail them to the ceiling start in the middle and work to the ends so you can bend out any warps there.

The center wall with no backing above the drywall cut out between the lines 3 1/2 by a 12 inches in three places slide a 18" block up inside and line it up with the lines and screw it in place with drywall screws so it covers the hole. You may want to put a screw in to use for a handle,
Replace the drywall you cut out and now you have something to screw to for the top plate.

One day, or less.

Closets? Door ways, windows?


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## nealtw

Not counting the foam, two of us would do that room before coffee break if the lumber pile was close at hand, but my grandson didn't need a ladder and we had nail guns, nail shooter for the floor, chop saw and didn't have to take time to think about it.

You have choices where the center wall meet the other wall you can just add 4 blocks between the studs on the long wall or just back the end stud with a 2x6 stud or 2  2x4s all or just put a stud in both inside corners. you do want to tie the corners together like in the corner for the two foundation walls just nail a block to one of those studs on the backside so the second one can be nailed to the block.


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## nealtw

I posted a thread for a cheater for measuring studs.
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?p=163942#post163942
If you are hand nailing into concrete do that last so the studs hold everything in place. 1 3/4" is all you need and then they only have to poke the concrete


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## Snoonyb

jjohnston said:


> I guess my reason for double top plates are, length.  max length I can get is 20' for wood locally.  So I need to build walls in multiple sections.  Code says I need to stager my top plates for strength, so I figured, double wall plate, have the top plate extend 2' past the 2nd top plate, and I fulfilled my requirement.



Building walls in sections and standing them, is typical wall framing and the lap is 4'.

But you are building non-bearing interior partitions.

U.S. standard stud length is 92-1/4, 95, 96 and 108".  



jjohnston said:


> My basement measures 8'4" from the cement to the bottom of the floor joists above.  So either I have a 1" gap or I do a double top plate, and cut the 8' studs down a half inch?  but am open to suggestions of better ideas.



However, from the floor to the drywall would then be 8' 3-3/8", so were I you, rather than a double top plate, I'd rip a sheet of 3/8" OSB.



jjohnston said:


> Code changed here in Minnesota in 2015, that now all cold air returns need to be ducted.  we can no longer use the space between the studs...



Is the return air duct within the floor joists or below the basement ceiling drywall.



jjohnston said:


> For dropping the return air duct down the wall, do I simply leave a gap in the top plate, or try and cut it out?  or does the HVAC person do the cutting?



I'd lay the walls out on the ceiling and ask the HVAC vendor to stop by and lay it out, then stand the walls leaving a space for the returns.



jjohnston said:


> Intended occupancy is 1 bedroom, 1 bathroom, 1 media room, and 1 family room.  I think code states that all bedrooms need to have a supply and a return.  My media room will be sealed off from the rest of the basement, so its a separate room.  Not completely air tight, but as tight as I can get it without going crazy about it.



Does each bedroom in the floors above each have their own individual return, or a centrally located return?

I understand the sealing of the media space for tow way noise reduction.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> U.S. standard stud length is 92-1/4, 95, 96 and 108".



http://www.atlanticforest.com/product/precut-studs-pet/

I didn't know you had a section like that. 

Ours are 92 1/4
104 1/4
116 1.4.
Anything like 96 or 120 would be plus up to 1/4 inch and could not be trusted to be all the same.


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## Snoonyb

These are mill standard stud lengths and there is no variation board to board.

Also, before the OP starts banging walls together, he needs to map out the elec. and internet, and determine how he's going to get them into the walls and ceiling.

He's more than likely going to have a lot more drywall repairs than anticipated.


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## nealtw

Up here it is the outside walls that finished and half that drywall gets torn out to fix wiring and such.


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## Snoonyb

If he plans it right he can have one side of the walls drywalled before the inspection so the inspector can see the process and have some level of confidence in his abilities.


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## jjohnston

Some of the comments are making me nervous.  Not sure if I should just hire a company...  if I did what would I look for?  Rough carpenter companies?


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## Snoonyb

There can be complications, which are overcome by planning, asking and thinking the project through.

You've been afforded the basics, now the planning, placement of equip., doors, etc.

By the way, in your room layout have you taken into consideration, egress windows for the bedrooms?


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## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> Some of the comments are making me nervous.  Not sure if I should just hire a company...  if I did what would I look for?  Rough carpenter companies?



We are here to help, and best if you develop the whole plan of action.


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## jjohnston

I've decided to hire an hvac company to do that part.  They quoted me 1,700.  But I wanted to do framing and electric myself.  My plan was frame it all, have hvac done, then do electric and low voltage, then have drywall done, then paint, then have trim done.  I have a layout I will try and upload and get suggestions as soon as I get to a computer.


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## jjohnston

Oh I would have plumbing done for me too.  
I would invite the inspected out after all installed but before drywall and pull a permit just before inspection.  That suggestion came from the city inspector.


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## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> I guess my reason for double top plates are, length.  max length I can get is 20' for wood locally.  So I need to build walls in multiple sections.  Code says I need to stager my top plates for strength, so I figured, double wall plate, have the top plate extend 2' past the 2nd top plate, and I fulfilled my requirement.
> 
> My basement measures 8'4" from the cement to the bottom of the floor joists above.  So either I have a 1" gap or I do a double top plate, and cut the 8' studs down a half inch?  but am open to suggestions of better ideas.
> 
> Code changed here in Minnesota in 2015, that now all cold air returns need to be ducted.  we can no longer use the space between the studs...
> 
> For dropping the return air duct down the wall, do I simply leave a gap in the top plate, or try and cut it out?  or does the HVAC person do the cutting?
> 
> Intended occupancy is 1 bedroom, 1 bathroom, 1 media room, and 1 family room.  I think code states that all bedrooms need to have a supply and a return.  My media room will be sealed off from the rest of the basement, so its a separate room.  Not completely air tight, but as tight as I can get it without going crazy about it.



Hmmm: I missed this answer. In the main part of the house double plates are required so joists landing above don't have to land above the stud and the plates can be overlapped for strength. But with this high ceiling I would use 2 just to shorten the studs and as pointed out adding plywood to get down to 8 ft or less would be good too.


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## Gary

Having built my own house and doing all phases myself form plans to finish work (except the concrete work) I can say keeping all city inspectors in the loop before & during construction is a good idea. Any questions I had, I went to city hall and asked the guys that would be doing the final inspection, and did things as they suggested. As inspections came & went, I didn't have one thing that needed redoing. They appreciated, that I appreciated their input.


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## nealtw

So we need to get the whole plan going, are the windows big enough for egress. Size of window for bedroom is code for your area.

Do you need  a hallway thru one room to the other, or are we cutting doorways thru existing walls.
Do you have a plan for or a location for closets.

With the drywall there a good plan for wires will be needed and some of that can be done before the walls are built so any access holes you need to cut might be just above the wall and hidden.


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## jjohnston

Attached is the plan I have now...  any suggestions?


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## jjohnston

Oops that one came out a little small.  lets try this one.


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## nealtw

so we see a problem with the window for the second room.


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## jjohnston

Sorry don't go by window sizes.  I need to measure.  My builder did put egress windows in sized for a bedroom in the front right and family room on the back right.  I will measure and fix that.  Was it the window size you were questioning or something else?


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## jjohnston

Window in family room is 115" wide and 43" tall.  Bedroom is 60" wide 43" tall.  They do open.


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## nealtw

Here we need the part of the window that opens to be something like 6 sq ft in each room bedroom, if you don't have a window, you can't build a closet.


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## jjohnston

Oh ok.  The bedroom with closet opens and the open part is about 30" x 40"


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## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> Oh ok.  The bedroom with closet opens and the open part is about 30" x 40"



Just trying to get my head around this.
Are looking at finishing the front bedroom and the portion of the family room for a bedroom?


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## Snoonyb

You need to submit this plan for plan check, *before*, you build because there are specific requirements for lighting, that do not appear to be addressed in some of the rooms.

Why the excessive recp. in the family and bedroom?


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## jjohnston

Right now nothing is done.  Just cement block walls.  The only existing studs are around the stairs, and the 1 wall that separates the utility room and the media room.  So the layout i uploaded is what it will be when done.  I'm starting with the media room for now.


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## nealtw

It the utility room the mechanical room too, is there rough in plumbing for the bathroom  and where is the breaker box?


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## jjohnston

Sorry I'm bad with terms.  Yes utility is mechanical.  Water heater, furnace, breaker box, etc.  They did run water pipes over to the future bathroom before the ceiling drywall went in.  They had to do drywall the ceiling due to new fire code.


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## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> Sorry I'm bad with terms.  Yes utility is mechanical.  Water heater, furnace, breaker box, etc.  They did run water pipes over to the future bathroom before the ceiling drywall went in.  They had to do drywall the ceiling due to new fire code.



Drains in the floor for toilet and bath?
So when you do one room at a time, best to start furthest from breaker box.
You will have to plan all the wiring and run lines  at least out to the end of what you are finishing. or plan on running a sub panel for the rest of the basement.

And you have heat and return ducts below the drywall ceiling?


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## jjohnston

Yes floor drains for tub and toilet are there.  Darn, maybe I'll just work on framing for now then and just do it all at the same time, then just do electric etc all at once instead of a room at a time.  Makes sense.  Yes, hvac ducts are in ceiling already.  But only 1 cold air return in the whole basement.  So they will need to add that, but the main line runs right over all walls that cold air returns would need to be added to.


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## nealtw

Soo just so I am clear, The two bedrooms are on each side of the bathroom and there is a window that is not showing on the plan?
Do you have ceiling lights, in the right places and the switches?
Is the HVAC running close past the stair case wall?


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## jjohnston

Oh no.  Just 1 bedroom down there.  The area to the other side if the bathroom will be unfinished storage.


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## nealtw

Measure from the center of the toilet pipe to the wall?


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## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> Oh no.  Just 1 bedroom down there.  The area to the other side if the bathroom will be unfinished storage.



Earlier I thought you said two bedrooms, that's where I went off the tracks. :rofl:


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## jjohnston

shoot, if I did I didn't mean it.  Lol


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## nealtw

I might have picked that up from another thread.


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## nealtw

So if the return air is closest to the staircase wall, that all gets easy.


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## jjohnston

Yeah, the return air ducts run directly in front of the stairs, across the top of the media room, across the top of the family room, and across the top of the bedroom.


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## jjohnston

Oh, and this is my plan for those pillars around the pipes in the media room.


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## KULTULZ

jjohnston said:


> They had to do drywall the ceiling due to new fire code.





Is this a fairly new requirement in all or just scattered locations? I suppose it has to be fire rated- 5/8"  Type X?

What if a basement remodel called for a partially closed ceiling and a suspended ceiling over mechanical areas?


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## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> Is this a fairly new requirement in all or just scattered locations? I suppose it has to be fire rated- 5/8"  Type X?
> 
> What if a basement remodel called for a partially closed ceiling and a suspended ceiling over mechanical areas?



It's a great idea for unfinished basement with furnace who knows what people store down there.


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## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> Oh, and this is my plan for those pillars around the pipes in the media room.



Good plan, how much room between duct and wall in the media room?


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## jjohnston

nealtw said:


> Measure from the center of the toilet pipe to the wall?



About 17 and 1/4 inches.  I wanted to do 2" rigid Insulation then 2x4 framing.  Can I still do that behind toilet?


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## nealtw

So all the stuff I can think of to work into the plan of action.
1. beside the stairs the return air drops can be run out the side of the duct and into that wall 3 1/2 x 10 for family room , oval under top of stairs to extra room. Can be capped for future use.
2. bedroom oval can be cut in to run down in the first wall between the bedroom and the hallway by the stairs.
3. media room, I think the holes for the return can go on the side of the duct and down the wall
4. as you may not have room to work on the wall behind the air ducts in the media room, the drop to hide the ducts may have to be built before the wall, Just in the media room.

5. The  plan shows ceiling lights in family room, bedroom, bathroom, and you will want one in the extra room and the hallway by the stairs.
  What if anything is there now, what are you planning on doing. is the insulation above the drywall, that would make it harder but not impossible to run wires.

6. Did they make allowance for the bathroom fan?  Look on the outside for the best place to take it out. It will want to go up into the floor joists and out.

7. Is there a vent pipe going up the wall and where in the bathroom?

8  House planners use a program that places toilets and showers x" from outside of the wall and that does not allow for the wall you are going to build inside.
   Builders tell the plumber what he would build to finish the walls and places the pipes to fit that. So there is a good chance the measurements from the wall and each other are screwed up.

9. Some plumbers install the trap for the shower and bring that pipe up and cap it.
    Some plumbers place foam around the pipe so the surface of the concrete can be chipped way so the trap can be added.
    Some plumbers just bring the pipe up, they carry a jack hammer and plan to use it.


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## slownsteady

nealtw said:


> That will work tape the joints and that is the vapour barrier use a 6" blue skin
> Under the wall and up the foam and that really seals it.
> https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.blueskin-weather-barrier-6-inch.1000403475.html


I have noticed on a couple occasions that Home Depot Canada carries some different products than HD-US. I pasted the name Blue Skin into my Home Depot site and got no exact match.....just sayin'


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## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> I have noticed on a couple occasions that Home Depot Canada carries some different products than HD-US. I pasted the name Blue Skin into my Home Depot site and got no exact match.....just sayin'



It is a trade name, they use the same product for windows, they do carry the wide stuff  and Henry makes all sizes.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Henry-WP200-Waterproof-Membrane-HEWP200937/202091036

Or this
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Grace-Vy...Roll-Fully-Adhered-Flashing-5003105/203057405


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## jjohnston

1. beside the stairs the return air drops can be run out the side of the duct and into that wall 3 1/2 x 10 for family room , oval under top of stairs to extra room. Can be capped for future use.
     The cold air return is already in for the family room right in the framing of the stairs.
2. bedroom oval can be cut in to run down in the first wall between the bedroom and the hallway by the stairs.
     Sounds good.  so if the duct is 3.5" and my top board of the wall is 3.5" how do I cut the oval?  do I need to frame that wall with a 2x6?
3. media room, I think the holes for the return can go on the side of the duct and down the wall
4. as you may not have room to work on the wall behind the air ducts in the media room, the drop to hide the ducts may have to be built before the wall, Just in the media room.
     They actually already built the soffit to hide the air ducts.  My plan is to build my wall up to the bottom of that soffit.  is that ok?

5. The plan shows ceiling lights in family room, bedroom, bathroom, and you will want one in the extra room and the hallway by the stairs.
What if anything is there now, what are you planning on doing. is the insulation above the drywall, that would make it harder but not impossible to run wires.
     The bedroom I want to do a regular ceiling light, I used the wrong symbol.  Bathroom will have the standard wall vanity light, and ceiling exhaust fan.  In the unfinished storage room behind the bathroom, there is one of those ceramic utillity light things in the ceiling now.  I think I will want to move the wire and switch during my electric rough in.

6. Did they make allowance for the bathroom fan? Look on the outside for the best place to take it out. It will want to go up into the floor joists and out.
     HVAC scares me, and I actually have a quote from an HVAC place which includes the bathroom fan.  They want about $1,700 to do the whole thing.  8 supply vents, 3 return vents, and the bathroom fan, all taped and sealed.

7. Is there a vent pipe going up the wall and where in the bathroom?

8 House planners use a program that places toilets and showers x" from outside of the wall and that does not allow for the wall you are going to build inside.
Builders tell the plumber what he would build to finish the walls and places the pipes to fit that. So there is a good chance the measurements from the wall and each other are screwed up.
     I will contact the plumber that did our house.  Our house is only 1 year old, so I still have all their contact info.  the HVAC company is the same one that did the initial build a year ago.

9. Some plumbers install the trap for the shower and bring that pipe up and cap it.
Some plumbers place foam around the pipe so the surface of the concrete can be chipped way so the trap can be added.
Some plumbers just bring the pipe up, they carry a jack hammer and plan to use it.
     In the bathroom area where the tub would be, there is what looks like an upside down paint tray cemented to the floor, it sticks out of the ground.  I think they said they would just cut it out and it would all be ready to go...


----------



## jjohnston

KULTULZ said:


> Is this a fairly new requirement in all or just scattered locations? I suppose it has to be fire rated- 5/8"  Type X?
> 
> What if a basement remodel called for a partially closed ceiling and a suspended ceiling over mechanical areas?



Yes, its new for 2015.  They said it is because new houses are built with those OSB I beam things, and they burn to fast, so firemen were having problems falling through floors, the sheet rock slows the burn and makes it safer incase of fire.  for basement remodels, a lot of times it sounds like the remodelers rip out the dry wall, and start all over again.  for me, I am hoping to salvage as much of it as possible for cost savings...


----------



## nealtw

2. if the hole is cut in the duct the wall can be built and the top plates just get cut away to run the duct, or run the duct and stop the wall on each side, drywall hides all.
4. Yes, they really did all the dirty work.
5. You will be removing some drywall for duct work so wiring should be able to be addressed at the same time but some might want to be fished into ceiling and pulled thru top plate as you build the wall.

6 Check with the builder, if I was the builder I would have had the heat runs in and capped near where they are needed, he would have paid extra for that but it would make you job real easy.

7. Is there a vent pipe going up the wall and where in the bathroom?

8. It is the measurements I am after, from the center of the toilet to the wall, you may have to adjust the wall plan to fit what they did.


----------



## jjohnston

2. if the hole is cut in the duct the wall can be built and the top plates just 
get cut away to run the duct, or run the duct and stop the wall on each side, drywall hides all.
OH, so it is ok to code to not have a top plate all the way across to accommodate ducts?  that answers a BIG question I had

6 Check with the builder, if I was the builder I would have had the heat runs in and capped near where they are needed, he would have paid extra for that but it would make you job real easy.
I will check, but I didn't have the final layout in my head quite yet.  Just the bathroom.

7. Is there a vent pipe going up the wall and where in the bathroom?
I don't think so.  I think one needs to be run.

8. It is the measurements I am after, from the center of the toilet to the wall, you may have to adjust the wall plan to fit what they did.
OH ok, it is 17.5" from the center of the existing pipe, to the cement blocks.


----------



## jjohnston

OH, what kind of nails do I need?  3.5" or 2 3/8" for the framing?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004R9TX/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


----------



## nealtw

You have answered most of my questions and for the most part I think your first step is to go ahead with the foam.

You called it a soffet, I call it a drop, most basement have at least one. 
Some times we drop the whole bathroom 6 to 8 inches to allow for ducts and exhaust vents and maybe plumbing vents to be run. That might be worth considering.

For better looks and  sound in the media room the drops are often matched on both side of the room and some times the family room too.
*IF* you did that you could run a new trunk line down that side of the house for for heat and or return so little or no ceiling would be removed.
You could also look at return air vent in the wall between the media and mechanical room doing most or all of the duct work in the mechanical room.

Just a few things to think about, but I would plan on the foam for all the outside walls and laying out all the walls on the floor and ceilings and then look at HVAC and wiring before building the walls.


----------



## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> OH, what kind of nails do I need?  3.5" or 2 3/8" for the framing?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004R9TX/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



If that fits your gun, 3" max. One box should be close to what you need.
There are lots of places you are just nailing two boards together, 3" might poke a finger as you hold the lumber, 3 1/4 or 3 1/2 really do a number on that finger.

Add one of these to your tool list
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Estwing-12-in-Pro-Claw-Nail-Puller-PC300G/202033613


----------



## jjohnston

Thanks!  I thought about buying the rigid insulation and all the framing wood in a couple weeks (see if I get lucky with a sale).  see how far I can get with the insulation in a day...  But think if all the stuff is there, I can peck away at it as time allows.


----------



## jjohnston

2" to 3.5" nails are what the gun can do.  Below is the one I'm looking at.  They have a 2 and 3/8" nail for it, I may go with that.  I wasn't sure what or if Code required any specific nail for the framing.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0032JTDPO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


----------



## nealtw

Yes for a rough count on studs measure  all your walls and you will need about 1 per foot for 16" on center and for 24" OC you need 2/3 per ft.
For plates a 3 times the wall measurement plus a couple lengths and more if you might drop the bath ceiling.
If I can talk you into the drop up the other wall, 10 ft 2x2 can be bought in a bundle of  12, one bundle.
Check ceiling height all over the place to see how level the floor is so you can order the right length of studs.
If you need 1/2 inch filler to make studs work, ply or osb is fine you get about 96 ft out of one sheet.


----------



## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> 2" to 3.5" nails are what the gun can do.  Below is the one I'm looking at.  They have a 2 and 3/8" nail for it, I may go with that.  I wasn't sure what or if Code required any specific nail for the framing.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0032JTDPO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



Code is 3" and I wouldn't bother trying shorter, that should be good home owner gun.


----------



## jjohnston

In my media room, I actually want to drop the ceiling all around the room.  So if my current drop for air ducts is 4' wide, I would make a drop on the right side, front, and back 4' wide.  making the middle of the room higher.  Not sure if that would look weird or not...  but the drop across the back would give me a spot to mount a projector if I did a built in shelf...


----------



## jjohnston

nealtw said:


> Code is 3" and I wouldn't bother trying shorter, that should be good home owner gun.



OK, I may use these for nails then.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004R9U1/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


----------



## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> OK, I may use these for nails then.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004R9U1/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



Nail guns are either stick or coil nailers and they are built with an angle.
So the nails are different for different guns so just make sure you are matching the nails to the gun.


----------



## nealtw

Have a look at the ceilings
https://www.google.ca/search?q=In+h...ved=0ahUKEwidmu6-567RAhUKxGMKHUuHAVQQ_AUIBigB


----------



## jjohnston

I actually like those!


----------



## jjohnston

Forgot to ask.  Is the center of toilet drain pipe supposed to be 15.5 inches from wall?  If so and I'm only 17.5 inches how do I stud the wall behind?  2×4 would be to thick...


----------



## frodo

Gary said:


> Do they say why you can't use the wall space? Not doubting it, just wondering why. I'm guessing it has something to do with fire prevention?



mold,  cold air, condensation


----------



## frodo

typical duct size for a residental house is 8'' round duck  with  6'' in small rooms like bath or laundry


----------



## frodo

jjohnston said:


> Forgot to ask.  Is the center of toilet drain pipe supposed to be 15.5 inches from wall?  If so and I'm only 17.5 inches how do I stud the wall behind?  2×4 would be to thick...



.......................


----------



## Snoonyb

jjohnston said:


> Forgot to ask.  Is the center of toilet drain pipe supposed to be 15.5 inches from wall?  If so and I'm only 17.5 inches how do I stud the wall behind?  2×4 would be to thick...



12 or 10" from the finished wall surface.


----------



## jjohnston

thanks everyone for your help.  Its been a HUGE help!!  I am curious how I should frame the windows.  the top of the window isn't flush with the block, it sticks out a bit at the top.  Attached is a picture.  I should have included the bottom of the window, but below the window is block flush with the other block, so its like from the bottom of the window up kinda juts in toward the window.


----------



## nealtw

Toilet looks fine, depending on size of shower unit, it may want to be in the room before the interior wall are built.

They wood framed the area above the window, the easiest is to match what is there  when you frame the new wall, just match the framing to the window, two studs on each side top and bottom plates for window level with their framing. And add short studs to continue your lay out below the window.
Every door and window gets 2 studs on each side


----------



## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> In my media room, I actually want to drop the ceiling all around the room.  So if my current drop for air ducts is 4' wide, I would make a drop on the right side, front, and back 4' wide.  making the middle of the room higher.  Not sure if that would look weird or not...  but the drop across the back would give me a spot to mount a projector if I did a built in shelf...



If you want to do the drops anyway then it would be easy to run Hvac and wiring in there instead of doing anything to the ceiling.


----------



## jjohnston

Thanks!

I'm about to purchase all the lumber.  Menards has it all on sale, PLUS 11% rebate.  Is Menards lumber ok to work with?  They are by FAR cheaper than local lumber yard (menards $1.72 for 2x4x8 vs $3.02 for lumber yard for 2x4x8) Menards rating is Grade: Stud or Better


----------



## Snoonyb

Menards is a direct competitor of HD and Lowe's, and also sells groceries.


----------



## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I'm about to purchase all the lumber.  Menards has it all on sale, PLUS 11% rebate.  Is Menards lumber ok to work with?  They are by FAR cheaper than local lumber yard (menards $1.72 for 2x4x8 vs $3.02 for lumber yard for 2x4x8) Menards rating is Grade: Stud or Better



All lumber for construction has a grade stamp, you are looking for #2


----------



## jjohnston

Weird, this one just says Grade is Stud or better.  Weird, it just says stud or better...  I may need to run to menards and see if they will let me look at them before I purchase.  I don't know if "Stud or better" is higher quality, or lower quality than #2.

https://www.menards.com/main/buildi...ds/studs/2-x-4-x-8-lumber/p-1444451086852.htm


----------



## nealtw

In Canada all lumber needs a grade stamp within 2 ft of one end, Lumber yards carry all the grades or most  of them. To save space it could be that the box store only stock #2 but the grade should be there.


----------



## Snoonyb

It depends on the mill.

Studs are graded as stud, #2 or utility, and the differences in quality are obvious, besides which, utility is often hemlock.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> It depends on the mill.
> 
> Studs are graded as stud, #2 or utility, and the differences in quality are obvious, besides which, utility is often hemlock.



Grade has to do with knots and defects and where they are in the board.

For years we built with hemfir, which was a mix of fir and hemlock.


----------



## nealtw

I see their lumber like 2x8 is listed as #2 so it could be  the mill doesn't cut studs out of anything less.


----------



## jjohnston

I contacted a few more lumber yards and prices seem even higher that the first lumber yard.  I can get steel sutds cheaper than these lumber yards want for wood 2x4...  Hmm, any advantages to metal?  Disadvantages?


----------



## nealtw

A different set of tools and maybe a different set of standards. Electrical  wires are protected, That would be the first thing I would check on extra work and expense.


----------



## jjohnston

lol nevermind.  I'll stick with wood.  I'm more familiar with wood than metal.


----------



## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> lol nevermind.  I'll stick with wood.  I'm more familiar with wood than metal.



Can you post some pictures of the mechanical room from different angles.


----------



## Snoonyb

jjohnston said:


> I contacted a few more lumber yards and prices seem even higher that the first lumber yard.  I can get steel sutds cheaper than these lumber yards want for wood 2x4...  Hmm, any advantages to metal?  Disadvantages?



Steel studs; Snips, screw gun, ramset/tapcons and a level, lighter weight easier to haul, and faster assembly.

Wood; Saw, nail gun, compressor, hoses, drill, various bits, ramset/tapcons and a level.


----------



## jjohnston

Faster assyembly?  I figured shooting a nail with a nail gun would be faster than screwing each stud...  only with steel no twisting and warping?


----------



## nealtw

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlFg8fiDAhE[/ame]
They have have made the corner trickier than it has to be.


----------



## jjohnston

it looks fairly straight forward, but time spent cutting each stud, seems longer than a chop saw to cut a 2x4?  Plus I worry I would need to start all over again with my code research, etc.

Is warping of studs a huge problem that people run into?  I think that's the thing I worry most about.


----------



## nealtw

I have never done steel studs but the pros I have seen do it use a metal cutting chop saw and cut studs  1/4 short to allow for what ever, might be better for sound proofing, just guessing.


----------



## jjohnston

Thanks!  I think I'll stick with wood.  do I need to worry about warped studs?  Is it legal to pull the warp out, like placing a wood brace between a non warped stud and a warped on?  or is it best to place it aside and return it later?  Not sure how much of a problem warping is?


----------



## nealtw

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw7cavIpgm4[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGSe24Tb9yc[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaCdxV4hTmw[/ame]


----------



## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> it looks fairly straight forward, but time spent cutting each stud, seems longer than a chop saw to cut a 2x4?  Plus I worry I would need to start all over again with my code research, etc.
> 
> Is warping of studs a huge problem that people run into?  I think that's the thing I worry most about.



Dry studs are not usually a problem, what you see is what you get. All lumber has a crown and you want the crown going the same way in all studs. When you nail doubles together like window or door frames you put one each way and you bend them to line up and they will hold each other straight.
Yo might find a few that go wild after you have built the wall. But seldom since we quit using hemlock wets.


----------



## Snoonyb

jjohnston said:


> Faster assyembly?  I figured shooting a nail with a nail gun would be faster than screwing each stud...  only with steel no twisting and warping?



Steel studs for your project is a one man job.

There are very specific requirements for toe nailing, and it isn't 1 nail in each end of each stud, it's more like 4-8D in each end of each stud.

Where I use 2, 7-20X7/16 in the bottom and one in the top. You can cut the studs inmasse with a chop-saw or about 3sec. with a snips.

Wire with BX or flex and your CAT just drop in the wall.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> Steel studs for your project is a one man job.
> 
> There are very specific requirements for toe nailing, and it isn't 1 nail in each end of each stud, it's more like 4-8D in each end of each stud.
> 
> Where I use 2, 7-20X7/16 in the bottom and one in the top. You can cut the studs inmasse with a chop-saw or about 3sec. with a snips.



Two 3" nails is code for 2x4s


----------



## Snoonyb

jjohnston said:


> it looks fairly straight forward, but time spent cutting each stud, seems longer than a chop saw to cut a 2x4?  Plus I worry I would need to start all over again with my code research, etc.



You are holding the steel in your hand, reach into your tool bag for your snips and 3sec. you are done.

With wood you have to drag it over to the saw or cut it and set the saw down.

A waste of time.



jjohnston said:


> Is warping of studs a huge problem that people run into?  I think that's the thing I worry most about.



Steel doesn't warp, but it does twist, but is pulled straight when screwing the drywall.


----------



## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> Two 3" nails is code for 2x4s



Each end when conventional framing, and if he is setting the sil and top plate separately, it's toe nailing.

Remember, he is in MN and has not submitted the plan for plan check, where those standards will be revealed to him.


----------



## jjohnston

Thanks everyone!


----------



## GBR

IMHO, don't use any wet wood as you want to cover it before it can totally dry out... and tar paper is not recommended under a bottom plate- it is from 5-30 perms, use some foil-faced 1/2" rigid foam board for an air/water/thermal break to the studs- they may let you use non-pt wood (full of chemicals) ask them; http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...ressure-treated-sill-plates-and-building-code

 I'd be surprised if they want a double top plate in all your non-bearing walls, a simple metal strap at intersections- if required--will meet code and save a lot of money. Much easier to nail the wall to the floor joists above with a single plate on each end of wall on the floor before you stand them. Add blocking backers between joists for the running walls, not like they are going anywhere...

 Minn. is 15/19 R-value, so unless you do some foam board on concrete wall first and make up the rest with 2x4 insulation.... ask locally- they may let you combine the 2 types for a total;   http://energycode.pnl.gov/EnergyCodeReqs/index.jsp?state=Minnesota

Gary


----------



## jjohnston

Our builder did r-10 on the iutside, so my r 10 on the inside should get me my r20 right?


----------



## jjohnston

I'm going to do wood studs and buy tomorrow. Thanks every ok e!


----------



## KULTULZ

Snoonyb said:


> Steel studs; Snips, screw gun, ramset/tapcons and a level, lighter weight easier to haul, and faster assembly.
> 
> Wood; Saw, nail gun, compressor, hoses, drill, various bits, ramset/tapcons and a level.



OK, I am no professional but I have a fear of metal studs in a basement due to possible humidity/water leaks and such. Am I overly paranoid?

Also, can BLUEWOOD be used in place of PT for floor plates (on slab)? Roofing felt is no longer recommended for use under floor plate?

Confused In W (By GOD) V...


----------



## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> OK, I am no professional but I have a fear of metal studs in a basement due to possible humidity/water leaks and such. Am I overly paranoid?
> 
> Also, can BLUEWOOD be used in place of PT for floor plates (on slab)? Roofing felt is no longer recommended for use under floor plate?
> 
> Confused In W (By GOD) V...



Around here commercial units will get metal studs for dividing up space and beside stairs, great for fire proofing but when it comes to office space washroom or anything that had a floor above, we were there to put in wood structure. We never see it in a basement, I would still want sill gasket under it.

Tarpaper? Sill gasket is already the right width.

You really want to limit the amount of treated lumber in the living space.

Painted lumber, we don't see it here yet but I am told it is great for cleaning up after a flood or mold growth, Really shortens dry out time.


----------



## KULTULZ

nealtw said:


> Tarpaper? Sill gasket is already the right width.



OK, but the sill gasket will stop heat transfer to the slab but the tar paper will stop the moisture wicking from the slab into the framing, right (I actually used both)?

When I papered my first sill/bottom plates, I actually also wrapped the sides with the paper (Advanced CDO), not thinking it would slow the drying of the PT.

Learn something everyday...


----------



## nealtw

Your not worried about the moisture in the lumber, it will dry, you are stopping the moisture from wicking up thru concrete to the wood. Any thing that stops moisture is usually acceptable but I have seen old tar paper break down years later when you take stuff apart. Sill gasket is the best because it will fill the voids and stop the water, I doubt it has much R values.


----------



## Snoonyb

KULTULZ said:


> OK, I am no professional but I have a fear of metal studs in a basement due to possible humidity/water leaks and such. Am I overly paranoid?



Humidity is a direct function of the comfort heat system and there is no "wicking" in steel.



KULTULZ said:


> Also, can BLUEWOOD be used in place of PT for floor plates (on slab)? Roofing felt is no longer recommended for use under floor plate?



This is always interesting to me, because if a home owner does not have an approved set of plans, I'm not interested, and when they do, and neither of us are in jeopardy, I follow the plan.


----------



## KULTULZ

nealtw said:


> Your not worried about the moisture in the lumber, it will dry, you are stopping the moisture from wicking up thru concrete to the wood. Any thing that stops moisture is usually acceptable but I have seen old tar paper break down years later when you take stuff apart.
> 
> Sill gasket is the best because it will fill the voids and stop the water, I doubt it has much R values.



*GOTCHA! *

Felt will break down over time allowing wicking and sill gasket provides a moisture barrier (I guess it does as it is also used on sill plates) in addition to a thermal barrier. I was overbuilding... 

But, isn't felt called for by code under a floor plate (on crete)?


----------



## Snoonyb

All of the potential shortcoming in wood framing in a basement, are not found in steel, and why I use it.

I also warranty my work for the length of time the original person contracted with occupies the dwelling.


----------



## jjohnston

My plan was all treated wood on the basement floor with a sill gasket under it.  Do I need treated if I am doing a sill gasket?

Also, I have one wall that has 4 2x6 studs holding up my load bearing header or whatever its called.  when I figure my 2x4 wall with a 2" insulation behind it that is only 5.5".  is 1/2" ok to drywall around, or am I better off trying to pull the whole wall forward 1/2 inch?  and if I pull the whole wall out 1/2 inch, do I need to add another 1/2" sheet of insulation behind the wall because of a fire block or anything like that?  Just trying to figure out the best way to frame around that support.  I don't know if drywall can be screwed to that type of thing or not since its structural.


----------



## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> *GOTCHA! *
> 
> Felt will break down over time allowing wicking and sill gasket provides a moisture barrier (I guess it does as it is also used on sill plates) in addition to a thermal barrier. I was overbuilding...
> 
> But, isn't felt called for by code under a floor plate (on crete)?



That what we did But Gary just pointed out the code change so now it is gasket


----------



## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> My plan was all treated wood on the basement floor with a sill gasket under it.  Do I need treated if I am doing a sill gasket?
> 
> Also, I have one wall that has 4 2x6 studs holding up my load bearing header or whatever its called.  when I figure my 2x4 wall with a 2" insulation behind it that is only 5.5".  is 1/2" ok to drywall around, or am I better off trying to pull the whole wall forward 1/2 inch?  and if I pull the whole wall out 1/2 inch, do I need to add another 1/2" sheet of insulation behind the wall because of a fire block or anything like that?  Just trying to figure out the best way to frame around that support.  I don't know if drywall can be screwed to that type of thing or not since its structural.



Treated on the bottom may be code in some places and against code in others.

So best you check. The post holding up a beam is called a point load. And I would just adjust the wall to match for a 1/2", as long as it doesn't screw the lay out somewhere else


----------



## jjohnston

OK, so if I pull that wall forward can I have a 1/2 inch air gap behind?  I can check with the inspector too and see, but I wanted to make sure it wouldn't be against fire code or something weird.


----------



## nealtw

You want to build your wall with a gap there anyway in case it is not perfectly straight. the fire stop is the drywall at the ceiling.


----------



## jjohnston

nealtw said:


> You want to build your wall with a gap there anyway in case it is not perfectly straight. the fire stop is the drywall at the ceiling.



OH, Thanks!!  I would have just slammed it right against the insulation!!  I am checking with the inspector, but I may step down to 1" R-5 rigid insulation tuck taped and glued to the walls, then leave 1/2" gap behind, except that one wall, that one i'll make flush with the point load.

the builder installed R-10 rigid insulation on the outside of the block, so if I do R-5 on the inside, I believe that will give me my R-15 requirement.  then if i want I can add Roxul to add more if I want...  not sure if that would be over kill or not.  I estimate it would cost me $900 for enough Roxul...


----------



## nealtw

I would choose between  fiber glass and safe and sound by price only.
If your foam passes code and you think you may more consider just the top half. or just to the depth of the frost level in the area. For many years here that is all we had to insulate and basements were comfortable.


----------



## jjohnston

Ok, I thought maybe the Roxul due to moisture, but then I guess that is what my rigid is for, that is my moisture barrier, so I shouldn't need to worry about moisture in relation to in wall fiberglass right?

Fiberglass insulation is about half the price.


----------



## nealtw

Wet insulation is no insulation but when it gets wet you can take fiber glass out and let it dry and re use it. And somewhere there is chart on sound and I think fiber glass is actually better.


----------



## jjohnston

Thanks!  I mostly just read on the Roxul package it doesn't promote mold groth, and thought in a basement that may not be a bad thing.  However, I think that is what my vapor barrier does isn't it?  I do have a whole house dehumidifier servicing the basement only keeping it at 50% humidity at the most.  but I can actually kick that down to like 40% if I need to.


----------



## nealtw

Any time this stuff comes up the is usually an argument.

So this is my opinion, and others my have a different one.
In a living space you try to create a weather system so that warm air replaces cold air. If warm moist air contacts a cold surface the moisture can condense and if the food is there mold spores can start to grow.
So we want insulation so we don't have cold surfaces. But if there are gaps that allow air flow thru the wall we can get a weather system in the cavity or behind the insulation.
Usually we insulate the wall and apply the vapour barrier to stop the air flow. In your case you will have a vapour barrier behind the wall and you should not have any more problem with that than any other interior wall .
We don't concern ourselves about the insulation we add to interior walls for soundproofing. Most cavities in the house are closed with drywall and painted, And paint does have a value for vapour barrier, not much but enough to keep interior walls dry.


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## jjohnston

This is weird.  The inspector got back to me and said r-5 insulation on inside wall max since builder did r-10 outside.  I replied back asking if he meant min, but haven't heard.  Have any of you heard about a max for insulation?  I can get r7.5 cheaper than r5


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## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> This is weird.  The inspector got back to me and said r-5 insulation on inside wall max since builder did r-10 outside.  I replied back asking if he meant min, but haven't heard.  Have any of you heard about a max for insulation?  I can get r7.5 cheaper than r5



I think he was stating min, and yes you can do more.


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## jjohnston

Ok, he kinda lost me a bit.  Below is what he saud.

Exterior meets code with exposure and air changes per hour.  You can insulate on interior  Max. R-5 seal with tape and at edges with 2x4 wall in front.  Any foam would not be exposed.  If exposed, Thermax could be used and leave exposed.


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## nealtw

That needs clarification unless both look the same and who would know.
The other part is that the foam wants to be covered with drywall for fire protection.


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## Snoonyb

jjohnston said:


> This is weird.  The inspector got back to me and said r-5 insulation on inside wall max since builder did r-10 outside.  I replied back asking if he meant min, but haven't heard.  Have any of you heard about a max for insulation?  I can get r7.5 cheaper than r5



He can only quote you min. standards for your climate zone.


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## KULTULZ

Snoonyb said:


> All of the potential shortcoming in wood framing in a basement, are not found in steel, and why I use it.
> 
> I also warranty my work for the length of time the original person contracted with occupies the dwelling.



My fear is the galvanized rusting or flash rusting in a humid basement. Not true?


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## Snoonyb

KULTULZ said:


> My fear is the galvanized rusting or flash rusting in a humid basement. Not true?



True, in an unconditioned space, maginaly fit for occupancy, eventually, and the fact remains that the repair is far and away, simpler to accomplish then with wood.


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## jjohnston

I heard back from the inspector.  Here is what he says in regards to the R-5...

The code has changed for foundation insulation over the years.  More is not always better.  Too much insulation restricts heat loss through foundation.  It was found that this could cause the earth to freeze and cause more pressure against foundation.  With the R-10 on exterior, I would not go with more than 5 on the interior.  I would avoid using fiberglass on interior because if any moisture did come through foundation, it will wick through fiberglass unless a good water proofing is applied.


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## nealtw

jjohnston said:


> I heard back from the inspector.  Here is what he says in regards to the R-5...
> 
> The code has changed for foundation insulation over the years.  More is not always better.  Too much insulation restricts heat loss through foundation.  It was found that this could cause the earth to freeze and cause more pressure against foundation.  With the R-10 on exterior, I would not go with more than 5 on the interior.  I would avoid using fiberglass on interior because if any moisture did come through foundation, it will wick through fiberglass unless a good water proofing is applied.



There you go, we get to learn something.


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## jjohnston

Agreed!  I did find that I can get an R-5 for less, but Home Depot is out of stock   I like Home depot for it because I have a 10% off coupon lol


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## Snoonyb

And now you are seeing first hand why, had you submitted your plans for plan check, the difference between MN and British Columbia are so blatant.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> And now you are seeing first hand why, had you submitted your plans for plan check, the difference between MN and British Columbia are so blatant.



And that why I said it needs clarification. That might be code every where with deep frost and CMU. We don't see CMU foundations here. just seismic concrete.
And our frost level is only 18 inches.
It sure is something to keep in mind.


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## jjohnston

Thanks Everyone!

I know every place has different codes, but the information I have been given in this forum has given me HUGE help, and without it, I think the 4 questions I had for the inspector would have been more like 4,000.  I ordered my lumber today.  I also heard back from the inspector that I can go less than R-5 (he didn't say how much less) made it sounds like my code was fulfilled by the insulation on the outside, but I did ask him to be sure.  I am planning on doing 1/2" R-3 rigid insulation and tape the seams to still have a vapor barrier, but doing that is saving me a LOT.


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## nealtw

It does make sense that the builder would have insulated to code.


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## jjohnston

OH, is 1/2" XPS insulation ok for the walls as a vapor barrier?  or do you all think I'm better off skiping all together?  when I go to the basement it is definately MUCH colder than the upstairs even with the 4 heat vents installed already. (after I finish it will be 12...)


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## nealtw

If you have heat at the ceiling and heat rises, you have more returns and register up stairs, it does make sense that the basement is cold. That will be a problem even when you have everything done you will likely have to adjust the upstairs registers to force more air to the basement. Obviously they do want some heat lose to the foundation. If you want to skip the foam you would put a vapour barrier between drywall and framing.

BTW. If you are using a shower pan or building your own you need a kick around the bottom, 2 x 10 blocks between the studs to give solid backing for backer board. If it is not to late to add a 10 ft 2x10 to the order.


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## Snoonyb

jjohnston said:


> Thanks Everyone!
> 
> I know every place has different codes, but the information I have been given in this forum has given me HUGE help, and without it, I think the 4 questions I had for the inspector would have been more like 4,000.  I ordered my lumber today.  I also heard back from the inspector that I can go less than R-5 (he didn't say how much less) made it sounds like my code was fulfilled by the insulation on the outside, but I did ask him to be sure.  I am planning on doing 1/2" R-3 rigid insulation and tape the seams to still have a vapor barrier, but doing that is saving me a LOT.



And had you submitted your plans for plan check, most of your question would have been answered, rather than rely on information totally geographically unrelated.


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## Snoonyb

jjohnston said:


> OH, is 1/2" XPS insulation ok for the walls as a vapor barrier?  or do you all think I'm better off skiping all together?  when I go to the basement it is definately MUCH colder than the upstairs even with the 4 heat vents installed already. (after I finish it will be 12...)



There is another subject that hasn't discussed.

Is you existing comfort heat appliance of sufficient capacity to handle the increased load and will the existing blowers be sufficient to maintain comfort heating throughout?


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> There is another subject that hasn't discussed.
> 
> Is you existing comfort heat appliance of sufficient capacity to handle the increased load and will the existing blowers be sufficient to maintain comfort heating throughout?



Usually taken into account when house is built and he has been in contact with the O installer.


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## jjohnston

Yes, when I first started looking into this, I asked the original installer, and he said that the current one was sized big enough for finishing the basement.


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## GBR

So it sounds like a recently built house. http://energycode.pnl.gov/EnergyCodeReqs/index.jsp?state=Minnesota

    You probably do have 2" x 2'(or 4')  perimeter insulation under the slab, so a sill sealer would work. IMHO, insulate the wood rims before building the wall-  unless you have 2" FB on the exterior at the rim joist already. When retro the rims, use foil-faced to stop summer/winter condensation on the rim, both from the exterior/interior. Best; caulk all wood joints before canned foam on the under-sized cut FB for a good air seal; http://www.buildingfoundation.umn.edu/RimJoist/default.htm

Poly in the wall cavity is a bad idea for your location, since '98; http://www.buildingfoundation.umn.edu/OCBasementSystem/default.htm

   Ask the Inspector about the Class of vapor barrier needed because with 2" XPS on exterior, you may not need any more than drywall (paper-less is best) with latex paint.  While there, ask about using builders paper on the concrete face to throttle any moisture coming in to encourage drying rather than pooling at the plate. The air gap is an alternative and in your case with ext. FB, would limit any convective looping/wetness to top of wall that a gap encourages. Foam board shrinks 2% across its width to break most tapes other than furnace cement/furnace tape- but as most your FB is outside- the gaps between sheets as it ages- moist air from exfiltration would stop at the builders paper rather than condensing due to ext. FB.

Gary


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## nealtw

GBR the rim is done and covered with drywall so as that was code on the build the rim should be done to code.


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## Snoonyb

jjohnston said:


> Yes, when I first started looking into this, I asked the original installer, and he said that the current one was sized big enough for finishing the basement.



Did they also tell you the required temp. standard the appliance is required to maintain 5' above the finished floor? 

There are standards for you municipality, that had you submitted your plans for plan check, would have been a specific note on the plan check sheet.


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## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> Usually taken into account when house is built and he has been in contact with the O installer.



If the house is built with an unfinished basement, the comfort heat is designed for that configuration, because only a fool would design for maybe.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> If the house is built with an unfinished basement, the comfort heat is designed for that configuration, because only a fool would design for maybe.



:agree: but sometimes common sense doesn't appear to be used in all cases.


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## jjohnston

Snoonyb said:


> If the house is built with an unfinished basement, the comfort heat is designed for that configuration, because only a fool would design for maybe.



Unless they were asked by the home owner doing the build to size it because the plan was to finish the basement within 5 years...

I'm not to concerned with HVAC because I'm having the same company that did the HVAC for the finished floors come back and finish off the Basement part.  

I guess what I'm most concerned with this phase is the framing, and if there is something specific I need to worry about in the framing based on the VERY rough idea of electrical.

I can look into submitting my plans for review, however I was specifically told by the city inspector NOT to start the permit process, because this project isn't going to be a 30 day thing for me.  I need to do it as time allows, so it is likely to drag on for a few years I'm thinking.  It'll be an hour or two a weekend I am thinking is all...  and at some point I'll probably hire someone to finish what is left to just get it done, but wanted to do as much of it myself as I could to save money.  

I do appreciate all the helpful suggestions and things (This is new to me, so I don't pretend to be an expert), its been a huge help.  The sarcastic comments however don't generally do anyone any good.  Please remember as per this forum thread, this is the DIY section...


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## jjohnston

Sorry, another question, if I'm doing a double top plate, can I nail the first top plate to the top floor joists, build the rest of the wall on the ground, lift it up, then nail that to the upper top plate already nailed to the ceiling?

and I have a ramset for nailing to floor.  Is there a length I need to use, or will the below work for me?  and also any suggestions on if I need the green powder loads?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002XDR3Y8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## nealtw

Yes you can if the floor is really close to level. If it is not level you will be in for a whole bunch of hurt. 
Yes that will work too, don't remember colour, it should be marked for concrete. 2 1/2 or even 2 1/4  would be plenty


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## slownsteady

jjohnston: if you are thinking about bringing in a pro at some point later in the process (as you mentioned, to finish) then perhaps you should use the pro now to get the basics right. Then your work will be mostly in the finishing where you can take time and learn as you go.


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## Snoonyb

jjohnston said:


> Sorry, another question, if I'm doing a double top plate, can I nail the first top plate to the top floor joists, build the rest of the wall on the ground, lift it up, then nail that to the upper top plate already nailed to the ceiling?
> 
> and I have a ramset for nailing to floor.  Is there a length I need to use, or will the below work for me?  and also any suggestions on if I need the green powder loads?



Do you understand the difference between plan check and permit?
Do you understand the vacancy requirement's for permits, and their duration, or the process for extending them?

Each municipality has them.

Another opinion given by someone in another geographical area, and may be totally unrelated to your areas code requirements.

Had you submited your plan for plan check, you would have had the answer.


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## nealtw

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsyEWLuNpng[/ame]


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## Snoonyb

I don't know how long this guy has been in the trades, but I've never pushed a pin with another pin, and have always shot the pin through a steel plate, which prevents the pin from being buried in the sil.


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## nealtw

If you always shoot 3 inch you never have to push the nail in. Some guns won't sink the nail all the way in if you don't do that. At the end of the video you will see that he moves his metal straight edge.


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## Snoonyb

When you compress the barrel to the firing position, the nail head is tight to the load chamber.

What does him moving the square have to do with the performance of anchoring the sil?


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## jjohnston

I have a ramset.  do people usually do a nail in between every other stud space?


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## Snoonyb

Once again, had you submitted your plans for plan check, you would have had the correct answer for your area.

*Generally*, anchor points are recommended to be within 12" of the sil ends and every 4', or so.

If the sil end has a knot or the lumber is dry the greater the chance of it splitting occurs the closer to the end the pin is placed.


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## Forlorn

I am in a similar situation right now, and I have also called for the services of an HVAC company as I do not know anything about it. The HVAC guys told me that I also need to cut a 3.5" hole in my top plate. So, I have exactly the same question as you, if the code says I can't cut more than half the wood out without some metal reinforcement, should I actually do it? How have you done it?


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## Snoonyb

Forlorn said:


> I am in a similar situation right now, and I have also called for the services of an HVAC company as I do not know anything about it. The HVAC guys told me that I also need to cut a 3.5" hole in my top plate. So, I have exactly the same question as you, if the code says I can't cut more than half the wood out without some metal reinforcement, should I actually do it? How have you done it?



There are any # of plate straps that will bridge/tie them together.


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## Forlorn

Forlorn said:


> I am in a similar situation right now, and I have also called for the services of an HVAC company as I do not know anything about it. The HVAC guys told me that I also need to cut a 3.5" hole in my top plate. So, I have precisely the same question as you, if the code says I can't cut more than half the wood out without some metal reinforcement, should I actually do it? How have you done it? Man, construction is such a nervous and anxious thing. I did not even think that I would get that worried about it. We have to move out of the current house in less than four months, but our new home is not even close to being ready. Before we move out, I have to call for a good air conditioner chemical overhaul company as we will take the air conditioners with us and I want them to be clean and blowing fresh air when we will be in the new house.


I have found it, finally.


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