# Converting the attic into a living space



## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

Hello all,

I'm in process of converting the attic into a living space and partially storage.

I'm in North NJ build in the early 90's with some insulation already.

Since I will do most of the work myself, I will take my time and try to do it right, and looking for suggestions on the insulation type, radiant barriers and all that good stuff.

We do get a good few months of hot summer and pretty cold winters so i need to take that into consideration. The attic spreads out above the master bedroom, part of bathrooms and the other 2 rooms on the second floor below.

The attic floor is currently covered with the pink R-23 insulation wall to wall, the outside wall have very little insulation.
After I do the air seal all over the place..

1.Does it make sense to and some more insulation on the top of the R-23 the floor has because it looks in good shape, or should i remove it all together and put a new one ?
2. Side walls I was thinking of using R-60.
3. Not sure on the Radiant barriers though need some advise on them.
 These are the things that will get me going for now..

Appreciate the feedback..


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## nealtw (Jan 21, 2016)

It is important to maintain the air flow from the soffet to the peak, build you knee walls out of 2x6 and add to the rafter so you have about 8" for insulation and air flow.


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## bud16415 (Jan 21, 2016)

Right now your attic is a cold space outside the homes thermal blanket, thus the insulation in the attic floor. You will be changing it to a conditioned space and making the thermal blanket the roof. Follow Neal&#8217;s advice  on making a new cold zone against the roof for air flow and the insulation now in the floor will be doing nothing except sound deadening between the floors as they will be the same temp on both sides. 

How do you plan on heating and cooling the space?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

I have forced air for heating / AC, i have on feed, and will tap to another from one of the rooms below, also will tap into the return from the same room.

If that don't do the trick, probably portable heater and AC.



bud16415 said:


> Right now your attic is a cold space outside the homes thermal blanket, thus the insulation in the attic floor. You will be changing it to a conditioned space and making the thermal blanket the roof. Follow Neals advice  on making a new cold zone against the roof for air flow and the insulation now in the floor will be doing nothing except sound deadening between the floors as they will be the same temp on both sides.
> 
> How do you plan on heating and cooling the space?


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## nealtw (Jan 21, 2016)

love2xlr8 said:


> I have forced air for heating / AC, i have on feed, and will tap to another from one of the rooms below, also will tap into the return from the same room.
> 
> If that don't do the trick, probably portable heater and AC.



Tell us about the roof structure, how much do you have to remove to open it up?
Ceiling joists and rafters are not usually heavy enough for the transition.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

If i understood your question correctly, the only thing i like to remove if possible are the 2x4's that go across which will give me more clearance in return, but i know they support the roof and i'm scratching my head if there is a was for the support without the 2x4's..

See picture.



nealtw said:


> Tell us about the roof structure, how much do you have to remove to open it up?
> Ceiling joists and rafters are not usually heavy enough for the transition.


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## nealtw (Jan 21, 2016)

The collar ties are important for two reasons. They hold the rafters stiff in a triangle, so they lean on each other. With out them you would need a ridge vent or box vent for every bay on both side.
You might raise them a little, I would be happy to leave them if you can get 90" for ceiling height. Min. height for any room is 80 inches.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

The problem is that they're about 65", that's why i wanted to get rid of them..



nealtw said:


> The collar ties are important for two reasons. They hold the rafters stiff in a triangle, so they lean on each other. With out them you would need a ridge vent or box vent for every bay on both side.
> You might raise them a little, I would be happy to leave them if you can get 90" for ceiling height. Min. height for any room is 80 inches.


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## nealtw (Jan 21, 2016)

Snow and wind load are the big concerns. As the load comes on the triangle formed here is what keeps every thing up.
If the roof was designed for that the ridge board you have would be a beam, a big beam with extra support all the way to the foundation and that section of the foundation might have had extra support with an over sized footing.
So you will be adding knee walls that will add support but now you have to look at the floor joists and their span, in short will they carry that extra load when it snows.
In new construction the cheapest way to do this is with bonus room trusses. You can see how they have formed a triangle at the top and on both sides to keep everything ridged.
If you google bonus room trusses and check out images you won't find any that are less than a 10/12 pitch, most are 12/12 pitch.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

I actually have the knee walls, but not sure if they provide any support or load for that matter..

See picture, just ignore the mess ...






nealtw said:


> Snow and wind load are the big concerns. As the load comes on the triangle formed here is what keeps every thing up.
> If the roof was designed for that the ridge board you have would be a beam, a big beam with extra support all the way to the foundation and that section of the foundation might have had extra support with an over sized footing.
> So you will be adding knee walls that will add support but now you have to look at the floor joists and their span, in short will they carry that extra load when it snows.
> In new construction the cheapest way to do this is with bonus room trusses. You can see how they have formed a triangle at the top and on both sides to keep everything ridged.
> If you google bonus room trusses and check out images you won't find any that are less than a 10/12 pitch, most are 12/12 pitch.


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## nealtw (Jan 21, 2016)

They did install the studs directly below the rafters, do you know if that was there when the house was built or just added later.
What size floor joists do you have.
Measure the height of the bottom of the ridge board?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

I'm not 100% since im the 3rd owner, but the way it looked it seemed thats how it was build..

This is a townhouse if it makes any difference..


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## nealtw (Jan 21, 2016)

love2xlr8 said:


> I'm not 100% since im the 3rd owner, but the way it looked it seemed thats how it was build..


Evan if it was intended to carry a load the engineering included the collar ties



			
				This is a townhouse if it makes any difference..[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Only that you are changing the structure of the outside envelope and any damage caused by you will or may effect other units.:hide:
> 
> Keep in mind, re-sale value. Any good home inspector will pick up on the missing ties and call for an engineers report, so with that in mind what ever you come up with you want to over do it and take photos of what you have done so it can be inspected with out removing stuff and you might get away with it.
> 
> ...


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## nealtw (Jan 21, 2016)

love2xlr8 said:


> I'm not 100% since im the 3rd owner, but the way it looked it seemed thats how it was build..


Evan if it was intended to carry a load the engineering included the collar ties



			
				This is a townhouse if it makes any difference..[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Only that you are changing the structure of the outside envelope and any damage caused by you will or may effect other units.:hide:
> 
> Keep in mind, re-sale value. Any good home inspector will pick up on the missing ties and call for an engineers report, so with that in mind what ever you come up with you want to over do it and take photos of what you have done so it can be inspected with out removing stuff and you might get away with it.
> 
> Is it you intention to heat and use the area behind the knee wall for storage?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

What size floor joists do you have.

2x6
Measure the height of the bottom of the ridge board?[/QUOTE]

About 10".


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

I agree with you and i know the implication of the resale value, but my main concern is the safety..

Yes, that's my plan for the area behind the knee walls, to be used for storage.



nealtw said:


> Evan if it was intended to carry a load the engineering included the collar ties
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## nealtw (Jan 21, 2016)

2x6s are never enough for for a floor or moving a load from the knee wall to the outside wall.
Would you be allowed to make changes to the roof like adding a ridge vent or a whole bunch of box vents?

The only thing I have seen when some trusses were assembled wrong they had us add a triangle of 3/4" plywood to firmly attach the joist to the rafter and the knee wall. The worry here is a big load on one side can push the roof and the knee wall , if it does carry the load will act like a fulcrum and the nails holding the rafters to the wall could be pulled out. Then the question becomes how many of these triangle would be enough.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

Would you be allowed to make changes to the roof like adding a ridge vent or a whole bunch of box vents?

Possible, but might not be worth the aggravation..

Currently there are 4 vents, and an opening 15"x10" "window" to the side wall.

The only thing I have seen when some trusses were assembled wrong they had us add a triangle of 3/4" plywood to firmly attach the joist to the rafter and the knee wall. The worry here is a big load on one side can push the roof and the knee wall , if it does carry the load will act like a fulcrum and the nails holding the rafters to the wall could be pulled out. Then the question becomes how many of these triangle would be enough.[/QUOTE]

So its seems is not as easy as I thought..


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## nealtw (Jan 21, 2016)

Keep in mind that drywall 5/8 x 4x8 is about 65 lbs so you would be adding quite a bit to the dead load.
If you want to go ahead I would strongly suggest you consult an engineer and the rules that you have for the complex.
Even if you don't go ahead, there are some insulation issues I think I can see.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

Yes, and I'm glad i found this site as i might have made a mistake..

As far as the rules are concern, i can pretty much can do anything internal, as long as is approved and appropriate, very little to anything outside can be changed.

Does it matter how much spacing is between the beams ? I was told by a contractor few years ago that the floor can hold pretty heavy loads..



nealtw said:


> Keep in mind that drywall 5/8 x 4x8 is about 65 lbs so you would be adding quite a bit to the dead load.
> If you want to go ahead I would strongly suggest you consult an engineer and the rules that you have for the complex.
> Even if you don't go ahead, there are some insulation issues I think I can see.


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## nealtw (Jan 21, 2016)

Where I live a floor is made out of 2x10s period. There are span tables that will tell you how much weight a 2x6 floor will carry but carrying the load and not sagging are 2 different things. And then you don't know how much weight is already being carried. It was designed to carry the the drywall ceiling below, the insulation and right now we can add the weight of the floor sheeting and there is some weight from the roof carried thru the knee walls, intended or not.
If you use this for living space the drywall wants to be 5/8 on the ceiling, if you want to use it for storage with heat you could likely cheat that but then you should have a fire rated door between that and the living space.
What about the stairs or do you have level access from the house?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

What about the stairs or do you have level access from the house?[/QUOTE]

Yes i do,, i have an opening big enough to build a stair case, right now using a step ladder..


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## nealtw (Jan 21, 2016)

love2xlr8 said:


> What about the stairs or do you have level access from the house?



Yes i do,, i have an opening big enough to build a stair case, right now using a step ladder..[/QUOTE]

How big is the hole for stairs and who built that?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

Its W3'X L7', was build by a contractor who renovated my master bathroom right under the attic, i asked to remove the drop down latter that for some stupid reason was located inside my master bathroom.


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## nealtw (Jan 21, 2016)

7 ft doesn't work. With a min tread length of 10 inches = 8.5 treads 9 risers mix height @ 8 inches =72 inches if you can count the 9th one. So the head room is either 63 or 72 depending on where you measure it. Min. head room is 80 inches.


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## nealtw (Jan 21, 2016)

Have I spoiled your day yet?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

I'm not sure if i follow you on this one. Please take it easy with me, I'm only a network engineer..



nealtw said:


> 7 ft doesn't work. With a min tread length of 10 inches = 8.5 treads 9 risers mix height @ 8 inches =72 inches if you can count the 9th one. So the head room is either 63 or 72 depending on where you measure it. Min. head room is 80 inches.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Have I spoiled your day yet?




Nahh, but the more info I get the more i think my "man cave" plan is otta of attic window..


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## nealtw (Jan 21, 2016)

Fair enough I will try again.
If you have an eight foot ceiling down stairs and we add to that the thickness of the ceiling including drywall and plywood. We get a total height of about 103.5" so we divide that by 8 the max height for each riser and we get, we get 12.93. We need to have the stairs to all be equal so now we divide the 103.5 by 13 and we get the risers for the stairs. 7.93 inches which is just a hair under 8"
With 13 risers you have 12 treads X 10 min = 120" that is the full run. Now you figure how many of these fit in the 7 ft opening that you have.
This will help.
http://www.renovation-headquarters.com/stairs1b.htm


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

aha, i see this is the building code requirement.

In  reality i have no need for headroom, the way the entrance/opening to attic is constructed..




nealtw said:


> Fair enough I will try again.
> If you have an eight foot ceiling down stairs and we add to that the thickness of the ceiling including drywall and plywood. We get a total height of about 103.5" so we divide that by 8 the max height for each riser and we get, we get 12.93. We need to have the stairs to all be equal so now we divide the 103.5 by 13 and we get the risers for the stairs. 7.93 inches which is just a hair under 8"
> With 13 risers you have 12 treads X 10 min = 120" that is the full run. Now you figure how many of these fit in the 7 ft opening that you have.
> This will help.
> http://www.renovation-headquarters.com/stairs1b.htm


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## nealtw (Jan 21, 2016)

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw9oX-kZ_9k[/ame]
So, it opens to a room with a higher ceiling


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## slownsteady (Jan 21, 2016)

Keep in mind that the codes in NJ may not be the same as BC. That said, as I read this, there are quite a few strikes against the addition. Only a local engineer who can check on-site can be the final judge.:2cents::2cents:


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## nealtw (Jan 21, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Keep in mind that the codes in NJ may not be the same as BC. That said, as I read this, there are quite a few strikes against the addition. Only a local engineer who can check on-site can be the final judge.:2cents::2cents:



Codes may be a little different but key word is little, I think have an engineer laughing at this would not be worth the money, but I have been surprised by engineers more than once.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

lol

No it was a small closet that we reserved to be the entrance to the attic..

I don't know if this picture is worth a 1000 words, but check it out anyway.

It kind of reminds me of Saddam Hussein hiding hole, I'm trying to remember why he got hanged, I hope it wasn't for a code violation..:rofl:











nealtw said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw9oX-kZ_9k
> So, it opens to a room with a higher ceiling


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

That is true, i will see if i can have an eng. take a look, and maybe laugh at my stupid idea..





slownsteady said:


> Keep in mind that the codes in NJ may not be the same as BC. That said, as I read this, there are quite a few strikes against the addition. Only a local engineer who can check on-site can be the final judge.:2cents::2cents:


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## nealtw (Jan 21, 2016)

love2xlr8 said:


> lol
> 
> No it was a small closet that we reserved to be the entrance to the attic..
> 
> ...



No it is not I want to see the other end of the seven ft. opening. What above your head when you took that photo? That is the head room I am taking about
By the time you have climbed up to the seven ft mark you are standing 24" above the floor or 72" below the ceiling.


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## slownsteady (Jan 21, 2016)

you mean "the place where you would normally bang your head" ?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 21, 2016)

well the first pic is what above my head, which is the 8ft wall and the attic, the other 2 are taken from the top down..


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

love2xlr8 said:


> well the first pic is what above my head, which is the 8ft wall and the attic, the other 2 are taken from the top down..



So, if you stand in that door way and run a tape measure to the other wall, you have 7 ft, extend that tape out to 10 ft and see that your stairs interfere with that other door. Now come back to the door frame and measure up from the floor measure up 24 inches and mark that with a pencil. Now measure from that mark to the ceiling in the hall way. That is what you bump your head on when you are standing on the third step.


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## bud16415 (Jan 22, 2016)

The rule of thumb I often use is the rise plus the run should always be 18&#8221;. Neal is talking about a comfortable climb of 8&#8221; of rise and 10&#8221; of run 7 & 11 is even an easier climb. I don&#8217;t know code inside and out or what pertains in your neck of the woods but I believe around here attic access can be steeper and they would allow a 9&#8221; rise and 9&#8221; run without any problem as long as it is attic access. I mean they allow pull down steps that are 11&#8221; rise  7&#8221; run more like a step ladder. 

Assuming you want the space as a man cave some light&#8217;s , heat etc. I wouldn&#8217;t sell it to the engineer or anyone that it was living space only that I wanted a conditioned attic space for storage that you can walk around in. it is not unreasonable to want your stuff stored where it won&#8217;t be cooked in the summer and froze in the winter. If you sell it as a bedroom or anything other than a storage place they are going to ask for egress plans for fire and the whole 9 yards. 

If that flies you will still need to figure out venting for the room and how to insulate it. Keep in mind the space will get smaller as you build the sloped ceiling out for insulation and maybe the floor up if the 2x6 are not enough. Right now you have collar ties on every other rafter. They may let you move them up if you put one on every rafter. You need at least 6&#8217;6&#8221; not by code just by common sense to walk around up there. 

If you get that far then you can store a 42&#8221; tv up there and a lazy boy recliner with a dorm fridge beside it for an end table. When you sell the house someday you advertise it as a finished attic great place to keep Xmas stuff.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

Sorry, I dozed off last night..

I get the 10ft for the stair, but not sure on how will you hit the wall when i have about 15' of clearance anyway you look at, inside and outside the entrance.



nealtw said:


> So, if you stand in that door way and run a tape measure to the other wall, you have 7 ft, extend that tape out to 10 ft and see that your stairs interfere with that other door. Now come back to the door frame and measure up from the floor measure up 24 inches and mark that with a pencil. Now measure from that mark to the ceiling in the hall way. That is what you bump your head on when you are standing on the third step.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

And that's exactly my thinking on doing, but again, not sure myself of the local codes, but i know one thing the contractor who build the entire development cut so many corners that and still got way with it.



bud16415 said:


> The rule of thumb I often use is the rise plus the run should always be 18. Neal is talking about a comfortable climb of 8 of rise and 10 of run 7 & 11 is even an easier climb. I dont know code inside and out or what pertains in your neck of the woods but I believe around here attic access can be steeper and they would allow a 9 rise and 9 run without any problem as long as it is attic access. I mean they allow pull down steps that are 11 rise  7 run more like a step ladder.
> 
> Assuming you want the space as a man cave some lights , heat etc. I wouldnt sell it to the engineer or anyone that it was living space only that I wanted a conditioned attic space for storage that you can walk around in. it is not unreasonable to want your stuff stored where it wont be cooked in the summer and froze in the winter. If you sell it as a bedroom or anything other than a storage place they are going to ask for egress plans for fire and the whole 9 yards.
> 
> ...


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## bud16415 (Jan 22, 2016)

Do you have a dry basement? I have always went down with my man cave desires when I could.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

I do, but its already taken 

Kids playroom.



bud16415 said:


> Do you have a dry basement? I have always went down with my man cave desires when I could.


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> The rule of thumb I often use is the rise plus the run should always be 18. Neal is talking about a comfortable climb of 8 of rise and 10 of run 7 & 11 is even an easier climb. I dont know code inside and out or what pertains in your neck of the woods but I believe around here attic access can be steeper and they would allow a 9 rise and 9 run without any problem as long as it is attic access. I mean they allow pull down steps that are 11 rise  7 run more like a step ladder.
> 
> Assuming you want the space as a man cave some lights , heat etc. I wouldnt sell it to the engineer or anyone that it was living space only that I wanted a conditioned attic space for storage that you can walk around in. it is not unreasonable to want your stuff stored where it wont be cooked in the summer and froze in the winter. If you sell it as a bedroom or anything other than a storage place they are going to ask for egress plans for fire and the whole 9 yards.
> 
> ...


You're right it is living space and outside stairs that have a max height of 8" commercial is even less. and the landing top or bottom has to be 36" long

Min head room changed at the same time that doors went to 80", I think that changed somewhere in the 60s.


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

love2xlr8 said:


> Sorry, I dozed off last night..
> 
> I get the 10ft for the stair, but not sure on how will you hit the wall when i have about 15' of clearance anyway you look at, inside and outside the entrance.



So looking again at the last picture in post 38. Are you saying you can cut away part of that wall with pink insulation in it?

Then we need to know what structure is in there, is that a bearing wall or does the same roof line continue over that room?

We haven't talked about what they did to the structure when the made the hole for the stairs.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

That wall leads to the hallway, the hallway is an open area with high ceiling and skylights the almost the size of 2 stories about 16 feet high..

Its not a bearing wall..



nealtw said:


> So looking again at the last picture in post 38. Are you saying you can cut away part of that wall with pink insulation in it?
> 
> Then we need to know what structure is in there, is that a bearing wall or does the same roof line continue over that room?
> 
> We haven't talked about what they did to the structure when the made the hole for the stairs.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

Codes aside, and taking into the consideration that the place will mostly utilized in the area behind the knee wall for storage and most of the traffic will be getting bins in and out of there, and the "living area" will be more for me to catch a hockey/football/soccer game maybe with a friend once in a blue and enjoy a nice cold brew or a movie a every so often, but definitely I wont be taking a shower and running upstairs everyday.
As much as i like the height to be a conformable 84" or more i could tolerate lower as i'll be seating my behind.

That being said, is there anyway to finish it, with adding some more support either doubling the 2x6, or adding 2x10 for the living area, closing the ceiling lighter materials such as wood panels instead of sheetrock, and lighter flooring.. Safety is my priority, I would make sure that the floor can support the weight 100% for what i intend to do, otherwise would be ohh well moment..


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

love2xlr8 said:


> That wall leads to the hallway, the hallway is an open area with high ceiling and skylights the almost the size of 2 stories about 16 feet high..
> 
> Its not a bearing wall..



So there is no change of direction in the outside roof line between the attic and the high ceiling next to it? You are likely right but I just want to make sure.

Now I do have to ask some questions about the hole for the stairs. You have a basement, are there walls below both side wall of the stair opening?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

nealtw said:


> So there is no change of direction in the outside roof line between the attic and the high ceiling next to it? You are likely right but I just want to make sure.
> 
> No
> 
> Now I do have to ask some questions about the hole for the stairs. You have a basement, are there walls below both side wall of the stair opening?



Again, if i understand youi correctly no they are not..


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

Now I really feel like I am picking on you.

The guy that cut that hole should have done a lot more for structure. 
Is the ceiling in the basement finished or can you still see the floor joists?
It is bad enough with what has been cut out already, all the weight form the ceiling and the knee wall has been transferred to the lower floor but if you want to extend the hole by cutting into that upper wall you would also be cutting one or two more ceiling joist out, do you have wall to carry that load.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Now I really feel like I am picking on you.
> 
> Are you kidding me, i really appreciate you input.. Actually i leaned a lot about attic, i was under the impression that you just slap some plywood and walls and call it a day..
> 
> ...


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

So if you can't cut anymore floor joists out, cut the wall out above the stairs doesn't help as the floor will be in the way.
So stairs to code is " no " it can't be done. The ceiling would have to be cut back at least one or two ft.

There are a few ways stairs can be framed in a new house but in a reno the choices are limited.
In the last picture in post #38, what we see there is fine if both walls were load bearing. As they are not load bearing the joist should be hung with hangers onto a double floor joist, the double floor joist should extend out to the next uncut floor joist and hung off of that. AS you are adding all that weight to the uncut joist at each end they would be doubled or tripled up. depending on the weight calculation.
The other way he would deal with this would be to put a beam in the basement under each wall with load posted down to the floor which would require a hole cut in the floor to add a footing.


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## bud16415 (Jan 22, 2016)

Do we know it wasn&#8217;t framed that way? It sounds like the original builder made a closet that was very long and deep. Why would he do that unless it was an option the original owner didn&#8217;t care to have stairs in there? I don&#8217;t know just wondering maybe there is something in the pics I&#8217;m not seeing.


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> Do we know it wasnt framed that way? It sounds like the original builder made a closet that was very long and deep. Why would he do that unless it was an option the original owner didnt care to have stairs in there? I dont know just wondering maybe there is something in the pics Im not seeing.



It was a closet for the bedroom behind that new drywall.
If it was framed for that we would expect to see more framing there or in the basement.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

Its not you, the pictures i took, just tell a fraction of the story..




bud16415 said:


> Do we know it wasnt framed that way? It sounds like the original builder made a closet that was very long and deep. Why would he do that unless it was an option the original owner didnt care to have stairs in there? I dont know just wondering maybe there is something in the pics Im not seeing.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

nealtw said:


> It was a closet for the bedroom behind that new drywall.
> 
> It was an opening in the room behind it, not quite a closet..
> 
> If it was framed for that we would expect to see more framing there or in the basement.



The level below is not the basement btw, the level below is the living room, and dining room.

Basement is in the basement .. The second level below..


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

love2xlr8 said:


> The level below is not the basement btw, the level below is the living room, and dining room.
> 
> Basement is in the basement .. The second level below..



Yes I understood that. Is the basement ceiling finished?


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

I did find a photo to help explain the head room problem. This building was designed for the stairs to run the other way.


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## slownsteady (Jan 22, 2016)

If you're not too concerned about doing it all to code, and you are okay with a steep stairway as "attic access", then you shouldn't have to cut any more framing to get there. So the questions becomes; 1) can you fit a comfortable room up there without screwing up the ventilation or roof structure? 2) If you move the load off the exterior walls, do you have enough strength in the interior walls to support the changes? (or something like that). It seems that we are talking about lots of factors without answering any single question.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Yes I understood that. Is the basement ceiling finished?
> 
> Yes, it is.. The laundry room which is in the basement isn't, it has drop down tiles which i can take a peak..


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

Take a photo of what is below the wall, you never know. You are hoping to find some timbers nailed together with the floor joist hung from that or a beam like that under the floor joists.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

All great points, but I do not have the answers to this questions, i was hoping to pick your and others brain.

However, i do understand without the clear picture of what's in there it will be hard to get an opinion..

I drew a "my version" floor plan of the second floor, which is right under the attic..

Not sure if that can clarify this, or make it more complicated.. 

Yellow highlighted area is the proposed living area, the purple is the area behind the knee walls..

here is a link to my google drive if you want to zoom in..

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6u5_PQ5F4A7Vjk4ekpmV0V2bjA/view?usp=sharing





slownsteady said:


> If you're not too concerned about doing it all to code, and you are okay with a steep stairway as "attic access", then you shouldn't have to cut any more framing to get there. So the questions becomes; 1) can you fit a comfortable room up there without screwing up the ventilation or roof structure? 2) If you move the load off the exterior walls, do you have enough strength in the interior walls to support the changes? (or something like that). It seems that we are talking about lots of factors without answering any single question.


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

In this picture is of the middle floor stairs going up to the next floor. On the close side we can see a beam in the floor up stairs held up by three posts.
On the far side we see a bearing wall holding up the floor. If we could see the basement here the wall and bearing points will look exactly the same with or with out the basement stairs. And the walls and or bearing points in the basement don't just sit on the basement floor, there is a footing there just like the outside foundation.


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

love2xlr8 said:


> All great points, but I do not have the answers to this questions, i was hoping to pick your and others brain.
> 
> However, i do understand without the clear picture of what's in there it will be hard to get an opinion..
> 
> ...



There most be another wall under the center of the attic , yes?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

nealtw said:


> There most be another wall under the center of the attic , yes?



Actually 2 walls, follow the purple line to the right, and the yellow to the left are the 2 walls..


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

Then those two walls should be bearing wall because the joists will be joining on them upstairs.
Have you had a peak above the tile in the basement yet.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

Yes they are..

I have not taken a look in the basement yet, I'm still working..

Some people work for a living, ya know ? 



nealtw said:


> Then those two walls should be bearing wall because the joists will be joining on them upstairs.
> Have you had a peak above the tile in the basement yet.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

Okay, here at the pic of my basement ceiling this is the support, and the stair from the 1st floor to the second floor.

Not sure if its what you're looking for.





nealtw said:


> Then those two walls should be bearing wall because the joists will be joining on them upstairs.
> Have you had a peak above the tile in the basement yet.


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

So that is a girder and it was designed to carry one hell of a load, is that in line and under the yellow wall?


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

on your drawing of the main floor behind the end wall you are showing the bathroom, draw a layout for that room and show where the stairs would bump into the the back wall. I know  just hummer me.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

Sorry,, i went up in the attic to check..

Its hard to tell what kind of support the wall has without opening the wall, but looked from an angle at it seems that its made with 2 2x4 stacked up on a top of each other..



nealtw said:


> So that is a girder and it was designed to carry one hell of a load, is that in line and under the yellow wall?


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

That's not what I meant. The knee wall is above the yellow wall and the yellow wall is on top of the girder in the basement ceiling, Yes?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

Which one bathroom 1 or bathroom 2 ?



nealtw said:


> on your drawing of the main floor behind the end wall you are showing the bathroom, draw a layout for that room and show where the stairs would bump into the the back wall. I know  just hummer me.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

The knee wall is above the yellow wall 

Correct!

and the yellow wall is on top of the girder in the basement ceiling, Yes?
Nope, its on the top of the living room/dinning room below, then one floor down is the basement..

The levels go in this order:

1.Basement
2.1st floor
3.2nd floor
4. attic


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

If you stand at the door to the stairs to the attic and look at the other end of that room. the bathroom behind that wall, I just want to know whats right behind the wall. Toilet , tub or?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

Its my master bathroom, tub, shower, toilet, and everything else in a full bathroom..



nealtw said:


> If you stand at the door to the stairs to the attic and look at the other end of that room. the bathroom behind that wall, I just want to know whats right behind the wall. Toilet , tub or?


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

One more try 

/ roof
l knee wall 
l yellow wall
l girder in basement. first photo in #69
All lined up, one on top of the other


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

No,

you missing one more floor,there is another floor  between the yellow wall and the basement..



nealtw said:


> One more try
> 
> / roof
> l knee wall
> ...


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

Is there a wall there and are they all lined up?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

Yes it is and they seemed to be lined up..

That's the wall

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6u5_PQ5F4A7QXRWclBZZTBNLWM/view?usp=sharing




nealtw said:


> Is there a wall there and are they all lined up?


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2016)

How come the first time we find good new, it takes ten posts to figure it out. Gone see you next week.
Can access that, lost my google pasword


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 22, 2016)

I guess today is my day. It shouldn't ask you for password though..



nealtw said:


> How come the first time we find good new, it takes ten posts to figure it out. Gone see you next week.
> Can access that, lost my google pasword


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## nealtw (Jan 24, 2016)

love2xlr8 said:


> Its my master bathroom, tub, shower, toilet, and everything else in a full bathroom..



Draw a floor plan with all that stuff.


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## nealtw (Jan 24, 2016)

love2xlr8 said:


> I guess today is my day. It shouldn't ask you for password though..



Next time I tried, It opened. But now it's about permission, I don't know.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 25, 2016)

I will, but i fail to make the relation this time.



nealtw said:


> Draw a floor plan with all that stuff.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

I am looking for inches for the stairs where every inch counts.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 25, 2016)

The stairs will have to remain the as is, i can't expand it any further.



nealtw said:


> I am looking for inches for the stairs where every inch counts.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

You have no idea if I would make a suggestion, never mind what it is, are you afraid of the unknown?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 25, 2016)

Actually, I'm afraid of what i know which is the bathroom can't be made any smaller to add a stairs to the attic.. 

Let me make the drawing real quick..



nealtw said:


> You have no idea if I would make a suggestion, never mind what it is, are you afraid of the unknown?


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

See the slope at the ceiling, is that the end of the world for your bathroom?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 25, 2016)

Not its not, but its get a bit hairy for a diy, i have to cut into the wall tiles remove the in wall mirror which i did not plan on doing .. But good to know..





nealtw said:


> See the slope at the ceiling, is that the end of the world for your bathroom?


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

Tiles go all the way to the ceiling?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 25, 2016)

Yep... they do.. 



nealtw said:


> Tiles go all the way to the ceiling?


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

You said the attic stair room was 7 ft, can you measure from the back wall to the trim on the bedroom door in the hall.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 25, 2016)

A few inched 2-3 as bedroom door is very close..




nealtw said:


> You said the attic stair room was 7 ft, can you measure from the back wall to the trim on the bedroom door in the hall.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

So if you remove the wall with the door in it we would stretch 7ft to about 7ft 6 or 8.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 25, 2016)

About 7.2-3



nealtw said:


> So if you remove the wall with the door in it we would stretch 7ft to about 7ft 6 or 8.


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## nealtw (Jan 25, 2016)

I was hoping the 7 ft was inside measure and we would gain 4 1/2 by taking it away
Two choices, A landing about half height with two fixed wall ladders good for passing stored items up and down, might pass code, storage under platform.
Or a very uncomfortable set of stairs.
I grew up living in a attic with stairs like this, as a kid and young adult, never gave them a thought, years later, breathtaking to come down with a box in you hands


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 26, 2016)

I like the Plan A better..





nealtw said:


> I was hoping the 7 ft was inside measure and we would gain 4 1/2 by taking it away
> Two choices, A landing about half height with two fixed wall ladders good for passing stored items up and down, might pass code, storage under platform.
> Or a very uncomfortable set of stairs.
> I grew up living in a attic with stairs like this, as a kid and young adult, never gave them a thought, years later, breathtaking to come down with a box in you hands


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## nealtw (Jan 26, 2016)

So that would just be a landing built out of 2x6 or 2x8 about half way and filling about half the room, we can talk about the structure.
An 8 foot ladder attached to the bedroom wall  with about 6" to the wall and another ladder the same from the landing up on the far wall.
Then we can get back to the insulation and head room.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 26, 2016)

Can we go over the insulation and head room now, i don't even know if it possible at all to have more head room, and if the floor even support the weight..



nealtw said:


> So that would just be a landing built out of 2x6 or 2x8 about half way and filling about half the room, we can talk about the structure.
> An 8 foot ladder attached to the bedroom wall  with about 6" to the wall and another ladder the same from the landing up on the far wall.
> Then we can get back to the insulation and head room.


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## nealtw (Jan 26, 2016)

I grew up with a bedroom built on a 2x6 but it only about 11 ft across :rofl: we removed some knee wall on both sides so the beds would slide out to the expanded area. I don't think my dad knew for 10 years.
To do it right you will be lifting the plywood and adding at least 2x8 joist, costing more head room. You said man cave, one mans hiding place or party room?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 26, 2016)

well this room is 13 feet across and 15 long if my memory serves me right..

It will be mostly me, but I'm sure will have someone up there with me once in a while..


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## nealtw (Jan 26, 2016)

I think mostly you are looking at storage but with that big hole from the main floor you will still want to find a way to insulate it.
Do you have box vent that can be seen fromm inside and do you have soffit vents?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 26, 2016)

That sucks..

Well storage is better than nothing, i have plenty of things to place there..

I have one opening to the side wall i think its a 10x15 opening, and 4 soffit vents 2 in each side of the roof


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## nealtw (Jan 26, 2016)

Look up at the peak, when there is a ridge vent the sheeting stops short of the peak by an inch or so.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 26, 2016)

I'll check it out as soon as I get home


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## nealtw (Jan 26, 2016)

A little bit about the venting. It is there for two reasons. In the summer it provides air flow to cool the roofing from below giving some types of roof more life.
In the winter we hear about ice dams. ice dams are caused by heat being transferred from the outside wall up to the roof , which melts snow, the water runs down a little further and re-freezes, over time that build ups until the water backs up under the roofing and you have a leak. In newer houses you will find that the soffet is all vented. In older house it was every so many feet but the soffets were level creating a common area for the air to find it's way to all the bays. so when insulating you apply cardboard or plastic chutes against the sheeting to allow air flow above the insulation. We keep a gap above the insulation all the way to the peak when you are insulation the roof.
If you finished the ceiling as is you would have a common are for the air to find it's way to the vent on the outside wall.
If you remove the ties and finish the ceiling you have lost all venting.
Two fixes here would be 1 remove the roofing , just the piece over the peak , cut some sheeting away and install ridge vent that is not seen very easily from outside. This would be best but comes with strata problems.
2 completely insulate the roof no vents but this might shorten the life of the roof or cause ice damming. The ice damming might be dealt with, with a little ingenuity, but both of these " ifs" might end up with a strata problem.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 27, 2016)

Since you are in Canada you covered the cold weather, how about on the hot summer days ? Will the attic will be nice and toasty ??



nealtw said:


> A little bit about the venting. It is there for two reasons. In the summer it provides air flow to cool the roofing from below giving some types of roof more life.
> In the winter we hear about ice dams. ice dams are caused by heat being transferred from the outside wall up to the roof , which melts snow, the water runs down a little further and re-freezes, over time that build ups until the water backs up under the roofing and you have a leak. In newer houses you will find that the soffet is all vented. In older house it was every so many feet but the soffets were level creating a common area for the air to find it's way to all the bays. so when insulating you apply cardboard or plastic chutes against the sheeting to allow air flow above the insulation. We keep a gap above the insulation all the way to the peak when you are insulation the roof.
> If you finished the ceiling as is you would have a common are for the air to find it's way to the vent on the outside wall.
> If you remove the ties and finish the ceiling you have lost all venting.
> ...


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## nealtw (Jan 27, 2016)

You bet ya. You do have a window.
The roof absorbs a lot of heat and with the rafters touching both inside and outside with out a break, heat will transfer as well as all the warm air from the house inside rising to the top.
No matter what you do, it will get warm up there.


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## nealtw (Jan 27, 2016)

I am guessing, you did not find any evidence of ridge vents, are the rafters 2x6 or 2x8?
http://buildingscience.com/documents/guides-and-manuals/irc-faqs/irc-faq-conditioned-attics


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 27, 2016)

OH yeah i forgot to mention that there were not raft vents.

Rafters are 2x8



nealtw said:


> I am guessing, you did not find any evidence of ridge vents, are the rafters 2x6 or 2x8?
> http://buildingscience.com/documents/guides-and-manuals/irc-faqs/irc-faq-conditioned-attics


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## nealtw (Jan 27, 2016)

So after all that is worked thru, I would strongly say do not remove the ties.
Install chutes in every bay for soffit venting ,6" fiberglass insulation vapor barrier " 6 mil poly"
Normally I would add another 2 1/2" to the rafters for more insulation but with the space being so limited, your choice.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 27, 2016)

What about of the open vents in the roof are they being closed or should i add some type of fans ??



nealtw said:


> So after all that is worked thru, I would strongly say do not remove the ties.
> Install chutes in every bay for soffit venting ,6" fiberglass insulation vapor barrier " 6 mil poly"
> Normally I would add another 2 1/2" to the rafters for more insulation but with the space being so limited, your choice.


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## nealtw (Jan 27, 2016)

For the people , members or non members watching this thread with interest.
There is no one answer, most houses have there own problems and details.
I have spent years doing work like this and I only work from experience, I am not qualified to make decisions on engineering and if I was called to work on this house I would call for an engineer to inspect this work and draw up what he wants to make it right.
We can only assume the contractor that has worked on this house was qualified but he cut ceiling joists with out making any correction to the framing that should be done and he should have worked thru this exercise and things would have been different if the OP understood that stairs would never fit in the space.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 27, 2016)

Now that we're pass the disclaimer, can we move on ?


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## slownsteady (Jan 27, 2016)

Reading this thread - mostly as a bystander, and definitely as a non-pro - it sounds like you have a few strikes against your original plan. So are you going forward? How has the original plan changed?


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 27, 2016)

I don't know yet, but one thing i know for sure that i need to fix the insulation and add some more lighting to the space, everything else will be an added bonus if i can make it happen..

Edit:

Original plan is otta the window, the question is having turn into a climate controlled storage space..



slownsteady said:


> Reading this thread - mostly as a bystander, and definitely as a non-pro - it sounds like you have a few strikes against your original plan. So are you going forward? How has the original plan changed?


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## nealtw (Jan 27, 2016)

My Buddy that is not a member but always has something to say to me about this stuff just emailed me questioning why I didn't explain what should have been done for this opening.
To start with may I say, "we don't know what we don't know" and "we only think we know what we think we know" and then there is a little bit that "we do know"
What we do know.
2x6s spanning 13 ft are at their limit for supporting a ceiling, they will carry much more weight but there is a sag issue.
As they land on the walls just below the knee walls we can assume that they are load bearing walls and we did our best to prove that with what looked like good results.
The problem is the wall three feet away that is now supporting the cut floor joists. all the weight from this part of the floor is transferred to the floor below which could cause a sagging issue in that floor.

Anything we do to repair this, the weight some how wants to be transferred to the foundation. An engineer might calculate the weight and how it might disperse thru the structure but I can only go on what they all call for in new construction and renos that I have worked on.
Normally around a staircase like this would be to hang the cut floor joists from a double floor joist which is hung off a double or more at each end.
The problem with this fix it that as it is just 2x6s there still could be a sag, which would then just put the weight back on the non bearing wall and the floor below.
Now we could put bigger beams in but then they would protrude thru the ceiling below. Probably not a good option and then we would also have to open walls all the way to the basement to add more studs.

If I was standing with an engineer I would make suggestions based on what he wants to to do and what would be easiest for me to do. 
My suggestion would be to just address the sag in the floor below and that would be to go one floor below that pull the ceiling and double the floor joists or maybe every other floor joist under that area. I think an engineer would go for that.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 27, 2016)

Thank you i really appreciate it.


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## bud16415 (Jan 28, 2016)

If the joists were snipped off and now that section of the ceiling is floating on one end you have to fix that. Over 6 foot of opening as Neal said the point the joists come in should be joined by a double 2x6 and maybe even 3. My suggestion is and this is just going by being a handyman and DIY homeowner is that the number of joists cut off have to be replaced at the ends to support the beam of 2 or 3 you are adding in with hangers. If you take out 4 joists then you need to add in two at each end and I would do one more per end for good measure. If I thought the span is too long for 2x6 to carry more than the weight of the ceiling then you need to add in more joists. There is two ways to get strength in a joist or a beam the best is to go taller so as Neal suggested 2x8 2x10 etc. the reason a beam gets stronger as it gets taller is because of what they call extreme fiber and in the calculation height counts more than width. The reason I beams have the flanges with nothing between except the web. The trouble with going higher is you lose ceiling height. That&#8217;s not to say adding in 2x6 will not improve the load bearing of the floor it&#8217;s just that it is not the best most efficient use of material. You will be adding more weight per strength, but I think I would think about that. 

Something else to think about is as storage space the floor loading in an attic could end up much higher than your tv and recliner you first thought about. Once you make easy access with stairs people have a way of filling attics with heavy stuff one little box at a time. Next thing you know you have massive amount of weight up there. 

Just speaking as a DIY here I would want the collar ties raised up to be around 6&#8217; if I could. It might require one on each side of every pair of rafters. But I would like a walk way down the center if I could. I would also suggest you hire someone to run the numbers and recommend how to do it and give you a report. Where I live I probably wouldn&#8217;t do that and just fix it to my satisfaction running my own numbers. That&#8217;s a risk we all take in home repair and I certainly can&#8217;t recommend you do it that way. That&#8217;s up to everyone to evaluate for themselves. 

My attic is not conditioned it is just vented and we use it for storage but we understand it gets quite cold in the winter and quite warm in the summer so what we put up there are things that don&#8217;t care about temp. I would never consider making it a heated space but love it as a storage place. My stairs are also narrow and steep and the door to the attic I added 4&#8221; of foam insulation to the inside of it.


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## nealtw (Jan 28, 2016)

If he raises the ties the insulation blocks the air flow.
I think the stairs are out, I think it will be a landing and 2 fixed ladders.
I am not sure how long the joists are outside the knee wall are but he can use that area for storage..

The wait from this floor is being carried by I think the dining room floor down stairs. I think doubling every other one of those joists would be the simplest. One at each end of the 10 ft if he puts a beam at the end or the joists in the attic.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 28, 2016)

"I am not sure how long the joists are outside the knee wall are but he can use that area for storage.."

Top of my head 5' wide and about 20' long.. give or take.. on both sides..


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## nealtw (Jan 28, 2016)

love2xlr8 said:


> "I am not sure how long the joists are outside the knee wall are but he can use that area for storage.."
> 
> Top of my head 5' wide and about 20' long.. give or take.. on both sides..



That would be a stronger place for storage.
That should be the same width as the bedroom down stairs, I can't make that compute. I would have thought 10 maybe 11 ft.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 28, 2016)

You are correct its the same size as the bedroom downstairs.. MY bad..



nealtw said:


> That would be a stronger place for storage.
> That should be the same width as the bedroom down stairs, I can't make that compute. I would have thought 10 maybe 11 ft.


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## nealtw (Jan 29, 2016)

love2xlr8 said:


> You are correct its the same size as the bedroom downstairs.. MY bad..



The vent on the end of the building, where exactly is that, centered? how high?
It occurred to me t it is in the right place, air may not have to get under the ridge board, so maybe you could raise the ties a little.


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## love2xlr8 (Jan 31, 2016)

The vent on the end of the building, where exactly is that, centered? how high?

Not in the center on the 3rd row on each side.. They all 80" high.


It occurred to me t it is in the right place, air may not have to get under the ridge board, so maybe you could raise the ties a little.[/QUOTE]


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## nealtw (Jan 31, 2016)

love2xlr8 said:


> The vent on the end of the building, where exactly is that, centered? how high?
> 
> Not in the center on the 3rd row on each side.. They all 80" high.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Post a photo.


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## love2xlr8 (Feb 2, 2016)

Here you have it:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6u5_PQ5F4A7ZWlILU1CN0otMEk/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6u5_PQ5F4A7MDdjQ19VZUVmbzQ/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6u5_PQ5F4A7ZHdJaWtjNGtSMlU/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6u5_PQ5F4A7eFZQcDVHZDhObnc/view?usp=sharing

i have 4 of the vents, and one of the site window or whatever is called.



Post a photo.[/QUOTE]


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## nealtw (Feb 2, 2016)

So the vent in the end is not high enough to use it for anything and as I understand it should not be there. It would only short circuit the system that takes air from soffits  to the peak vents.
So two choices, ridge vent or have the bottom of the ties eight inches below the ridge board, that would give you 6 inches for insulation and 2 inches air gap.
I think you have 10 now, not much to be gained there.


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