# Can we use both push in (on back) and side screws of one outlet?



## vikasintl (Sep 3, 2015)

I am tying into an existing outlet box to provide power for a new electrical outlet. The existing outlet already has 2 lines connected to it - one from "upstream" (to the fuse box) and one downstream to one more outlet. The existing lines are connected to the "quick connect" holes in the back of the outlet, leaving 2 open terminals on each side of the outlet. Is it okay to connect the third new line to the side terminals? Also existing outlet does not have ground wire...its old house only two wire romex but for new outlet I can use 3 wire romex (with ground) so can I use ground terminal of existing out and side screws of existing outlet to add another outlet to it?


----------



## nealtw (Sep 3, 2015)

No. One set of wires to an outlet make a set of pigtails about 6" long and join the wires in the back of the box. So you join all the blacks together with a short black going to the gold side of the outlet and all the whites joined together with a short white going to the silver coloured side of the outlet.
For less trouble down the road, always use the screws not the push ins.
When you have no ground it is a good idea to have one gfi on each run, the outlet closest to the fuse box.


----------



## vikasintl (Sep 3, 2015)

nealtw said:


> No. One set of wires to an outlet make a set of pigtails about 6" long and join the wires in the back of the box. So you join all the blacks together with a short black going to the gold side of the outlet and all the whites joined together with a short white going to the silver coloured side of the outlet.
> For less trouble down the road, always use the screws not the push ins.
> When you have no ground it is a good idea to have one gfi on each run, the outlet closest to the fuse box.



I did not understand ...you are saying don't use push ins on the back and use screws on both sides? right now all 4 push in connectors are used... so remove all those 4 wires from the back and connect both white and add the third white and all of them on silver colored side in one screw and same with black?


----------



## JoeD (Sep 3, 2015)

Can you use them? Yes you can.
Should you use them? NO. Most here will not recommend using the pushin connections. They are a very common source of bad connections.

Also you are not permitted to extend ungrounded circuits.


----------



## bud16415 (Sep 3, 2015)

Don&#8217;t use the push in connections ever would be my recommendation and don&#8217;t buy the outlets that have them in them. IMO they are the source of lots of problems down the road. 

A &#8220;pig tail&#8221; is just a short wire used to connect several wired together with a &#8220;Wire nut&#8221; and then the other end of the pig tail has a loop bend to go under a screw head on an outlet or switch. It is a better method of connection and in the future if the outlet wears out all you have is two screws to deal with in replacement of the outlet. Also if an outlet stops working all the rest downstream will work fine.

If you don&#8217;t have a bare copper ground wire you should have a GFCI outlet as the first one of the string of outlets. In the case of a GFCI you will have 4 wires connected to it. the screws at the top are labeled &#8220;Line&#8221; that&#8217;s where the power comes in. the screws on the bottom covered with a strip of yellow tape when you open the GFCI package up are labeled &#8220;load&#8221; and those go off to the next outlet. With most GFCI outlets you don&#8217;t bend a loop on the wire to go under the screw head, all you have to do is strip the wire straight and insert it in from the back similar to the push in connectors you mentioned only on GFCI you then tighten the screw and it locks tight on the wire. GFCI&#8217;s allow two blacks and two whites to be attached to the load side. So in that case you could go off in two directions from the GFCI and they would all be protected. 

If you use one that doesn&#8217;t have the bare ground wire the GFCI will protect you and all the outlets on the string. In the package there are stickers that you are supposed to stick on the outlet cover to let people in the future know there is not the safety ground wire in the box. 

Here is a link showing the pigtails. 
http://www.handymanhowto.com/how-to-replace-a-worn-out-electrical-outlet-part-3/

Here is a link to the GFCI 

http://communities.leviton.com/thread/1080


----------



## nealtw (Sep 3, 2015)

vikasintl said:


> I did not understand ...you are saying don't use push ins on the back and use screws on both sides? right now all 4 push in connectors are used... so remove all those 4 wires from the back and connect both white and add the third white and all of them on silver colored side in one screw and same with black?



Yes, that is the way it is done, the only time you wire thru the outlet is when you are using a gfi outlet.

And no we do not know why they still put the push ins on the back.


----------



## bud16415 (Sep 3, 2015)

nealtw said:


> Yes, that is the way it is done, the only time you wire thru the outlet is when you are using a gfi outlet.
> 
> And no we do not know why they still put the push ins on the back.



I wish they made regular outlets that held wires the same way the GFCI works with the wire coming in from the back under a clamp with the screw. It would save time and make wiring a simpler process. I also think that type connection is a better connection than the loop on the end of the wire. A regular outlet has an exposed hot point at the screws with the GFCI type its fairly safe. 

With all the code changes and stuff they do they should have outlawed back stabs years ago.


----------



## CallMeVilla (Sep 3, 2015)

Our practice is to replace back stab receptacles.  They only cause problems.  Go to heavy duty receptacles and re-wire as necessary


----------



## slownsteady (Sep 3, 2015)

http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=18854&highlight=back+stab


----------



## vikasintl (Sep 3, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> Dont use the push in connections ever would be my recommendation and dont buy the outlets that have them in them. IMO they are the source of lots of problems down the road.
> 
> A pig tail is just a short wire used to connect several wired together with a Wire nut and then the other end of the pig tail has a loop bend to go under a screw head on an outlet or switch. It is a better method of connection and in the future if the outlet wears out all you have is two screws to deal with in replacement of the outlet. Also if an outlet stops working all the rest downstream will work fine.
> 
> ...



Thanks for detailed answer. I found a Gfci outlet that I can use...(by the way there is one gfci outlet close to box in each circuit ) as a new outlet ...and this new outlet is going to be on exterior wall (yes it will be in weatherproof cover) ...
So how do I wire existing outlet which is backstabbed with all 4 wires (2 wires from box and 2 wires going to another outlet) to the new gfci outlet?

also while trying to remove that backstabbed wire ...I took accidently out the one screw from one side where black wires are connected...is that ok?


----------



## slownsteady (Sep 3, 2015)

someone will correct me if I am mistaken, but only one GFCI needed per circuit if that one is closest to the fuse box (first in line).


----------



## vikasintl (Sep 3, 2015)

slownsteady said:


> someone will correct me if I am mistaken, but only one GFCI needed per circuit if that one is closest to the fuse box (first in line).



So if I have one that is close to line ..I dont need any extra ...as it won't help any further?

I have one lying around...but if its not going to help ...I would just save it..


----------



## hornetd (Sep 3, 2015)

JoeD said:


> Can you use them? Yes you can.
> Should you use them? NO. Most here will not recommend using the pushin connections. They are a very common source of bad connections.
> 
> Also you are not permitted to extend ungrounded circuits.



If this installation is subject to the US National Electric code you can extend the circuit by one of two methods: 
You can bring an Equipment Grounding Conductor to the new outlet from any of several points on the existing grounding and bonding system or, 
You can install a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter as permitted by section 406.4(D).  

250.130 Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections
(B). For replacement of nongrounding-type receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment grounding conductor in the branch circuit, connections shall be permitted as indicated in 250.130(C).
(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4) An equipment grounding conductor that is part of another branch circuit that originates from the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates 
(5) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure
(6) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure


----------



## bud16415 (Sep 3, 2015)

Sounds like someone already did the whole house for GFCI by putting one outlet on each wire coming out of the main box. If that is the case you are covered and all you have to do is use regular outlets and pig tails for everything else. can you post a photo of main power box and the outlets?


----------



## hornetd (Sep 3, 2015)

vikasintl said:


> Thanks for detailed answer. I found a Gfci outlet that I can use...(by the way there is one gfci outlet close to box in each circuit ) as a new outlet ...and this new outlet is going to be on exterior wall (yes it will be in weatherproof cover) ...
> So how do I wire existing outlet which is backstabbed with all 4 wires (2 wires from box and 2 wires going to another outlet) to the new gfci outlet?
> 
> also while trying to remove that backstabbed wire ...I took accidently out the one screw from one side where black wires are connected...is that ok?



You will want to buy a new specification grade receptacle that has a screw tightened clamp at each terminal.  With those side clamping receptacles you can place two wires under each clamp.  Since the receptacle has two terminals on each side you can terminate Four black wires and Four white wires on that one receptacle.  Alternatively you can spice all the black wires together and all the white wires together with each splice including a jumper wire that you then connect to one screw on the side of the receptacle as was previously suggested in another reply.


----------



## vikasintl (Sep 3, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> Sounds like someone already did the whole house for GFCI by putting one outlet on each wire coming out of the main box. If that is the case you are covered and all you have to do is use regular outlets and pig tails for everything else. can you post a photo of main power box and the outlets?




This is the outlet pic. to which I want to add another outlet which will be in on exterior wall on the front of the house...this outlet is also on exterior wall but inside of house..

I also want to know for this additional outlet in circuit ...should I use romex 14 gauge without ground or 14 with ground  or 12-with ground ... distance between existing and new out would be less than a foot because only difference is one is in the house an other is out the house...same wall same place..


----------



## bud16415 (Sep 3, 2015)

Can you get a photo of the GFCI's you mentioned are already installed?


----------



## JoeD (Sep 4, 2015)

> I also want to know for this additional outlet in circuit ...should I use romex 14 gauge without ground or 14 with ground or 12-with ground


You won't find NM cable without ground.
If the fuse or breaker is 15 amp then you can use #14 cable.
If the fuse or breaker is 20 amp then you can't use #14. You must use #12.


----------



## slownsteady (Sep 4, 2015)

JoeD said:


> You won't find NM cable without ground.
> If the fuse or breaker is 15 amp then you can use #14 cable.
> If the fuse or breaker is 20 amp then you can't use #14. You must use #12.



So i guess the question becomes; how do you handle the grounding from this point forward?


----------



## bud16415 (Sep 4, 2015)

slownsteady said:


> So i guess the question becomes; how do you handle the grounding from this point forward?


 

I have no idea what others would do with the ground but to comply with code you need a GFCI in the circuit at the beginning of the run when its not practical to run all new cable. When I was doing new runs using cable with the grounds I would still connect the grounds even though they wouldnt go back to the panel. I wouldnt cut them off as you never know someone might run a new cable at some point and need them. The other thing you could do is coil the bare copper conductor up and stuff it in the back of the box.


----------



## slownsteady (Sep 4, 2015)

I agree. I would still hook up the ground wire - perhaps the OP still has metal boxes. And who knows? On some future project he may open up the walls and have an opportunity to run a separate ground back to the panel.


----------



## nealtw (Sep 4, 2015)

I believe that when you wire in a an out let that has the third hole for ground when no ground is available, those plugs should be labled "no ground"


----------



## bud16415 (Sep 5, 2015)

nealtw said:


> I believe that when you wire in a an out let that has the third hole for ground when no ground is available, those plugs should be labled "no ground"


 

The stickers come right in the box with the GFCI outlet. Stick one on every outlet down stream.


----------



## Kabris (Sep 5, 2015)

The pictures the OP provided show a close up of the existing terminations on the receptacles.  That's what we in the trade like to refer to as shiners. That is, there is too much bare copper exposed on the ungrounded and neutral conductors.  The wires should only be stripped back enough to terminate. At the same time, there should be enough stripped back so no insulation is getting pinched in the screw/clamp. Many of the GFCI's and other devices even tell you the length to strip. It is often stamped on the device.  From the way it is now, there is the possibility that the ungrounded and neutral wires could come in contact with each other, which, in best case scenario, would result in a pretty loud pop and a tripped breaker. Depending on the age of the wire, worst case scenario would be it could lead to a fire.


----------



## frodo (Sep 13, 2015)

,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## hornetd (Sep 14, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> I have no idea what others would do with the ground but to comply with code you need a GFCI in the circuit at the beginning of the run when its not practical to run all new cable. When I was doing new runs using cable with the grounds I would still connect the grounds even though they wouldnt go back to the panel. I wouldnt cut them off as you never know someone might run a new cable at some point and need them. The other thing you could do is coil the bare copper conductor up and stuff it in the back of the box.



I know that many will find this surprising and I'm sure that some will argue very loudly that the code mandated approach is wrong but if you read my explanation carefully you may come to agree with the code making panels that the approach required by the code is the correct one.

You must not connect the Equipment Grounding Conductor in cables that are used to extend ungrounded circuits to either the metal boxes or the receptacles that you install in the extended portion of a two conductor circuit.  The rational for that prohibition is that by bonding the new receptacles to each other or to ungrounded metal boxes you will have insured that an accidental fault between the energized current carrying conductor and a metal box or receptacle yoke will be extended to other parts of the circuit extension.  In the absence of an accidental grounding path; such as contact between an energized metal electrical box and metal plaster lath; the stray voltage will be on all the interconnected, but ungrounded, electrical boxes, receptacle yokes, and the ground pins of the added receptacles as well as the conductive surface of any three wire load that gets plugged into the circuit extension.  That widened exposure will continue until the ground fault actually is completed through the body of a human being or domesticated animal.  You will have maximized the chance of someone coming in contact with the stray voltage.  That won't keep the GFCI from doing it's job and opening the circuit but remember that only occurs after the stray current begins to actually flow to ground.  Providing that the subject who gets shocked is in good cardiac health, over four years old, and not yet physically old enough to have developed an unstable heart rhythm the GFCI will prevent serious injury or death but not until the subject has received a shock.  In electric shock trauma there are two general ways that the shock recipient gets injured.  One is the current flow itself and the other is the body's reaction to the shock.  Within the age and health limits that I have already outlined the GFCI will limit the current flow to a non injurious level.  The GFCI cannot prevent the bodies reaction to the electric shock.  That reaction is sometimes called startle effect.  When that brief current flow occurs during the opening of the GFCI's mechanism all of the effected muscles will contract.  The stronger of the muscles will win the contest and the victims legs will tend to straiten violently while their arms and hands contract and close.  This has caused people to do as little as say owe and as much as throw themselves off or a ladder or down stairs.  Instructions on how to minimize the chances of that shock ever occurring follow the quoted sections of the US National Electric Code(r) (NEC) which specifically forbid the interconnection of ungrounded, GFCI protected, circuit extensions of any length viz.

"NEC  ARTICLE 406
Receptacles, Cord Connectors, and Attachment Plugs (Caps)

406.4 General Installation Requirements
Receptacle outlets shall be located in branch circuits in accordance with Part III of Article 210. General installation requirements shall be in accordance with 406.4(A) through (F).  

(D) Replacements. Replacement of receptacles shall comply with 40 6.4(D)(1) through (D)(6), as applicable. Arc-fault circuit interrupter type and ground-fault circuit-interrupter type receptacles shall be installed in a readily accessible location.

(2) NonGrounding-Type Receptacles. Where attachment to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (D)(2)(a), (D)(2)(b), or (D)(2)(c).  

(b) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked No Equipment Ground. *An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit interrupter receptacle. * 
(c) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked GFCI Protected and No Equipment Ground. *An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles."  * [emphasis added]  

Now for the promised advise.  In order to avoid installing any conductive pathway between the receptacle yokes, electrical boxes, and connected loads of either the existing or newly installed receptacle outlets the installer can use the cable jacket that was removed from the new cable at each end in order to expose sufficient conductor length to terminate the conductors to the receptacles as an insulating covering over the unused Equipment Grounding Conductor.  Alternatively you can strip the actual insulation of of any conductor that is one gauge size larger and slide that insulation over the Equipment Grounding Conductor.  The unused Equipment Grounding Conductor must then be coded green by painting, wrapping with green tape, by applying green colored marker, or by applying commercially available insulating coatings that are brushed on like paint and dry green in color.  My preferred method is the application of insulation stripped off of the next sized conductor because I can use enough to extend up under the jacket of the NM cable and hold it in place by capping the Equipment Grounding Conductor with a small wire nut.  That leaves the Equipment Grounding Conductors available for connection if an Equipment Grounding Conductor is later run back to an acceptable point on the Electrical Service Equipment.  FWIW


----------



## slownsteady (Sep 14, 2015)

Wow. Well explained and it makes sense.


----------



## bud16415 (Sep 15, 2015)

Tom

I do agree and it sounds logical as long as you leave it in the box for future use as needed. I have seen guys nip them off and didnt like that.


----------

