# Stone front porch



## bethany14 (Oct 9, 2006)

I'm having a hard time finding info on how to construct a stone porch.  Does anyone out there know where I can find some info?
Thanks!
Oh, and here's a pic of what I'm thinking:


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## bethany14 (Oct 13, 2006)

nobuddy?
Well, as of right now, the plan is to sink footers 36" down using cylinder forms.  We're planning for 8x8 posts that will rest upon those cylindrical forms.  I'd rather build up the footer though, at least to rail height on the porch, and have the posts begin there.  Is that possible?  Or is this look a facade built around posts that go all the way down?  We'll have 8 posts for our 24' wide x 10' deep porch.  (code requires that it be free-standing)  We're planning a deck for the rooftop that will be around 75% greenroofed which is why we're using such big posts.
Any ideas?


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## mudmixer (Oct 13, 2006)

The photo looks like a traditional stone wall that would be on a continuous footing. You could do the same. I doubt if it is just a facing because natural stone that size would need a footing for support.

Why not consult a professional? You will probably need drawings anyway to get a permit and show it is a free-standing porch.

The connection of the porch roof to the house could be tricky if they insist on keeping it separate. A local designer whould have a good idea about the application of the local code requirements.

Dick


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## bethany14 (Oct 14, 2006)

Thanks Mudmixer, your name lets me know you know what you're talking about on this 

So, if I poured a continuous footing and set some cinder blocks in it (with rebar, right?) and then faced it with pretty stones I could achieve that look, right?  Or, I could skip the stones altogether and muddy up the face of the cinder wall to coordinate with the 'stucco' facade of my home... So then, what would my floor joists attach to, and how?  Would I attach my beams to the cinder wall and hang joists like usual?  Or would the joists hang right on the cinder wall with some sort of masonry joist hangar?

As for the porch roof, it will attach as any other roof would, but it will be 100% supported by the porch structure.



> Why not consult a professional?


That is what I hope to accomplish here 

Here's what I've got so far for my plans, they are not finished though!!!  And if you want, you can check out my house in my gallery.
Thanks for your help!!


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## bethany14 (Oct 20, 2006)

Can't seem to find enough info on stonework for porches, so here's my lumber plan.  I'll head to permitting monday AM, so let me know what I should change before then!  Thanks in advance for your input!

edited to add: the plan doesn't include tying the new front porch to the old side porch.  we'll attack that later.
edited again to add: as of 10/28 Still haven't made it to permitting   --keep changing the plan!


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## K2eoj (Oct 20, 2006)

Stonework or brickwork structurally would be the same and there would be lots of ways to do it. In my area I start everything with a soils test/report because of our weird soils. No sense doing thousands of dollar worth of work to find it is moving around on you. 

I'd vote for a continuous footing below frost line. Or better yet a concrete footing/wall combo from frost line to grade, (slightly below grade). Then you can get your top and bottom rebar and take care of your tensile strength. 

Probably a few other ways too.

We could probably help you out on the actual laying of the rock when you get that far.

K2


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## bethany14 (Oct 23, 2006)

Thanks K2 
I'm warming to the idea of a continuous footing.  I can rent a terramite back hoe for about $200 incl delivery...that appeals to me more than renting an auger and digging 8 footers.  Both are feasible, I imagine the continuous footer would provide a far more rigid structure.  Since I'm raising 8x8 posts up to the 2nd story deck (which will hopefully support a vegetated roof) I like the idea of them beginning at rail height.  
So, I envision a continuous wall that rises to just about floor height, and then built up blocks to rail height with posts resting on them.  But then, should I be worried about moisture trapped under the porch?  And what about the posts next to the house?  This has to be free-standing, so I can't get around that.  
Another thing I'm confused about, is what's the difference between resting the floor joists on top of the beams and hanging the joists from the beams?  Seems to me hanging them is simpler and more efficient...but do you lose strength by doing that?
One more thing 
If I secure the post to the block footing, can I also rest my beams on the footing?  Could I sandwich the post with 2-2x10's?  Or, should I set the beams on the block footings and rest the posts on them?  Or would the continuous wall up to floor height then become the beam?  And if so, how wide should the block wall be in order to support beams/joists at one level, and posts at another?
And lastly, am I making this more complicated than it has to be?  Sorry if so, and thanks for any & all input


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## glennjanie (Oct 23, 2006)

Hi Bethany:
I like the continous footer below frost line and concrete blocks to grade line then, if you want a porch that would be "period correct" for your house you could use limestone rip-rap. You just get a truck-load of the stone (which measure 6" to 8" each) do some pre-planning on where certain stones will be and start laying them similar to the way you would lay concrete blocks. This wall will bring out the artist in you and you can be proud of it the rest of your life.
I also like the stone piers on the wall to hold the 8x8s. 
I would use portland cement and sand mixed at a  3-to-one ratio, rather than brick mortar, because the portland cement has better binding properties. Just spread a bed of the cement and lay the stones in it, occasionally rake the joints with a leather glove on your hand. That makes it look neat and pressing the cement into the joint gives a better bond to the stone.
If this sounds like a lot of work..... it is but you will be proud of it.
You could lay a run or two of 4" wide concrete blocks with a treated wood plate on top, behind the stone to support your floor joists. Yes hanging joists is just as good as laying them on top of the perimeter band.
Glenn


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## glennjanie (Oct 23, 2006)

On second look at your example house, I'm sure they have used limestone on their porch just like I was talking about.
Glenn


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## bethany14 (Oct 24, 2006)

Glenn, you ROCK 
I like your idea of limestone rip rap alot, I'm gonna call my local aggregate folks and figure out how much I'll need.  What do you think I should do for the posts that are near the house?  They're already pretty big and will occupy a significant amout of room on the porch.  The ones on the ends I think I'd like to have the stone piers for, but I'm second guessing those center ones... Should I still make built up stone peirs for those posts?  Or should I run those up from a concrete block pier just below the floor height?  hmmmm....
edited to answer my own question 
Yes, all posts will have a stone base.  duh me


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## bethany14 (Oct 24, 2006)

and... Should the piers be 16x16?  Is there a 'standard' base for 8x8 posts?


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## glennjanie (Oct 24, 2006)

Yes, that would be sufficient. It just depends on the esthetics; what ever looks good. A concrete cap on the piers might be easier to set the posts on and look a little better too. In that case I would use 12" X 12" pier with a 16" X 16" cap on it.
Glenn


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## bethany14 (Oct 25, 2006)

Awesome, this will be great!


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## bethany14 (Oct 25, 2006)

Awesome, this will be great!
I'm having a hard time finding limestone riprap around here...the place most local to me (a huge aggregate place) said they only carry it in 12" and they won't deliver b/c it wrecks their trucks.  They quoted that 12" stuff for $1625/ton, but I'm certain what they carry is specifically for land retention.  Should I be looking at landscaping places for this stuff?  
Also, I read somewhere that a 6" wall can get 30sqft out of a ton...does that sound right?  So, a 6" wall at 3' tall would go about 10 linear feet?

I want to say thanks to you guys for all your help, especially Glenn, wish I knew where to send some cookies


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## bethany14 (Oct 25, 2006)

I sure like the look of this hodge-podge stone arrangement...


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## glennjanie (Oct 25, 2006)

Hi Bethany:
You're welcome but my computer has too many coookies now, I have to delete them frequently. LOL The whole earth has a limestone shell, it should be available anywhere; maybe you could try the yellow pages and also look for excavation companies. If there are any shallow streams in your area, perhaps you could pick up some creek-bottom stones.
The new picture appears to be a mixture of limestone and brick. It is a work of art, isn't it?
Glenn


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## bethany14 (Oct 26, 2006)

I like the idea of plucking my own rocks...I'll have to see about that.  Most undisturbed natural areas (esp streams) around here are protected, and hubby works for USFWS!!!  

Those bricks really give it character, I think.  From what I understand they're called 'clinker bricks' and though they were originally discards from the brick firing business, those resourceful bungalow builders came along and found an artsy/funtional use for them.  I love how bungalows symolize simplicity, conservation, and art...makes ya proud to own one


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## bethany14 (Oct 26, 2006)

What if...
Instead of a lumber floor, I blocked and filled the area?  Is this ridiculous?  (it's ok to say so, I have a tendency to throw out half-baked ideas)  Then I could pour a smooth concrete/earthen floor or flagstone it...and the only lumber would be in the 2nd story deck.  
We plan to have the porch wrap around the right side of the house.  Most water run-off problems stem from our McMansion neighbors and their top-o-the-hill water eradication methods.  They are on our right side (if you're facing the house) so a solid foundation wrapped around would block and re-route their run-off to our gardens.  Of course, just a wall would do that too.
Oh, and I found a superb rock company, I think.  They're within 30min, and they have an online price list.  Only thing is, they specifically state on their site that they offer contractor prices to everyone b/c they have no intention of providing 'customer service'.  Which means me-no-picky-brains there   I definitely want the stones we get to be as local as possible.  Who knew there were so many kinds of freakin rocks!


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## glennjanie (Oct 26, 2006)

Hi Bethany:
The concrete floor is the best route for you. No matter what kind of wood you put in there, it will eventually rot out. Concrete is considered a lifetime job. Just try to get good compaction without disturbing the outside walls or the house foundation (keep mechanical tampers 12" away from any masonry wall). The flagstone would blend better with the stone walls.
Glenn


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## bethany14 (Oct 26, 2006)

That's great!  Thanks Glenn 

I'm guessing this floor needs to be below my house's foundation.  The foundation is 8" below the floor level, so I'll plan a nice wide lift around the doorways.  
How far below the height of my house's foundation should it be?  A couple inches?
Should I lay a row of block along my house's foundation, or is the existing foundation sufficient?
I guess it's time to invest in a book about foundations


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## glennjanie (Oct 27, 2006)

Hi Bethany:
Since 8" is the maximum standard height for a step I think you should make the floor even with the top of the foundation. You could either lay blocks to support the back edge of the floor OR you could break openings into the existing foundation and let it support the floor. 
Glenn


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## bethany14 (Oct 28, 2006)

I think I like the idea of breaking openings in the existing foundation, rather than trying to parallel it with a new wall.  I'll have to research it though, as I have no concept of how that would be done.
I worry about making the floor even with the foundation...in my internet research adventures (sacred text of DIY fools like myself) some folks recommend a drop to prevent potential driven rain and snow loads from seeping above the foundation.  That makes sense to me, but I don't know if it's a legitimate concern or not, as I'm about as green as rookies get 
It's 10" from the threshold to the top of the foundation. (threshold is built up 2" because I didn't want to cut into floor joists to make the new sill, now I know better and would have gone ahead and done just that) If I build up within 8" of the top of the foundation, then pour a 4" floor, that should leave me around 14" up to the threshold (2 steps?) , and 4" clear of the foundation. I think.

Oh, and what do you folks think of the "Carderock Drywall" stones?  The quarry is <30mi away, and they're $55/ton.  
http://www.carderock.com/pallets.pdf
They charge $20/ton for delivery, and if I figured correctly, I think we'll need about 14 tons.  (I need to double & triple check that, it sounds like an absurd amount)


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## glennjanie (Oct 28, 2006)

Hi Bethany:
The stone looks great! And not a bad price, either.
Yes, you should drop the floor down 2-4 inches and use 2 steps. If the existing foundation wall is concrete or cinder blocks you simply take a hammer and beat out the space between the webs of the blocks. It takes a whole lot of beating but it will eventually disintegrate and fall into the foundation. One hole each 24" or every second block (32") will be sufficient.
I think I would order 5 tons or maybe 7 tons and see what I needed after I layed those. If you over-order they might want $20 per ton to return them.
Glenn


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## bethany14 (Oct 28, 2006)

Excellent! You're the best, Glenn.
I do have those 2 windows down there, we were planning to fill them anyway being that they're under a porch.  
So much to learn...I'm off to galavant the web


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## wesley8808 (Jan 24, 2007)

Do you have an update?  I am actually doing a deck and plan to stone veneer the sides and add columns in the corner to connect the railings to make it appear more like a patio.

I am using stone tiles as the decking (www.stonedeckeast.com and www.stonedeckwest.com for better pictures)  They are a local Md company (here in the Baltimore area).

Thanks.


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## bethany14 (Jan 24, 2007)

No update yet, my friend.  I'm waiting on spring, and a few other household tasks.  I like your stone tiles, though I'm leaning toward a less 'together' look.  I'd like flagstones for flooring, I think they'll lend a rustic look to our simple idea.
Please do let me know how it goes, mixing wood & stone.  I'm planning to build with stone & mortar, no trees.  Are you worried about the floor outliving the floor supports?


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## wesley8808 (Jan 26, 2007)

I am just north of Baltimore myself and also waiting for the weather to soften.  Although, had I known it would have been this mild I would have done it in Nov and Dec.

I am not too worried about the life, the supports (joists and beams) are the same as any other deck (PT lumber) and the tiles are laid to self drain like an ordinary deck.  And if I am still here and have to replace the supports, I can always reuse the tiles.


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## bethany14 (Jan 26, 2007)

That's true, those tiles will last forever!  I'll be sure to post on here when I get going on my porch, and you be sure to do the same!


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## bethany14 (Mar 19, 2007)

Well, I spoke to permitting and found out it's just decks that need to be 'free standing', but not porches!  Great news for me, but I still wonder what the heck the difference is between a deck and a porch 

As of now, the plan is to dig a trench around the perimeter and fill to just below grade with concrete--but I'd like an alternative to 100% poured concrete.  Should the foundation be straight concrete, or can I drop in some concrete rubble?  We have some sidewalk leftovers we can use, we're into reusing as much as we can here    I imagine it can be done, but at some ratio of rubble to poured.  Any ideas?

I'm still planning to build with the Caderocks I mentioned before, and I'd like to toss in old bricks randomly (like the pic in an earlier post) and use old bricks to 'cap' the walls and pillars.  There will be 4 pillars on the front (south facing) and 3 pillars on the side (east facing) with wood rails set in the pillars.  The front 4 pillars will support wood posts notched at top for beam parallel to the front of the house.  This and a ledger board on the house itself will support the floor joists of the upper deck.  The upper deck will have a slant of 4" over 11'.  And we'll be able to access it from our upstairs, my favorite part  

I'm still unsure of how to fill in our basement windows.  I think I can lay bricks inside them. 

Here's a rough sketch: 

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g145/killchar2/StonePorchEastView.jpg


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## bethany14 (Mar 20, 2007)

I just came across an alternative to concrete foundations called "Frost Protected Shallow Foundations" (FPSF) info here: http://www.toolbase.org/TechInventory/techDetails.aspx?ContentDetailID=713

Apparently, it costs less, is easier to install, and uses geothermal heat to maintain a frost-free foundation.  However, the rigid foam insulation forms are susceptible to termites...which are a concern here in Maryland.  

Any thoughts?


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## glennjanie (Mar 21, 2007)

Hi Bethany:
To me, the difference in a deck and porch is the roof on the latter.
Yes, fill the basement windows with concrete brick or some old bricks you may have around. 
The shallow foundation sounds good to me.
The 2 steps 7" tall will work real well; be sure they have approx. 12" treads.
Have the whole house treated for termites, emphasizing the shallow foundation. You are doing well.
Glenn


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## bethany14 (May 5, 2007)

Argh.  The stinkin county won't allow the FPSF!  
They have code amendments that address it, but for a heated space.  So, I asked the engineer if I ran PEX (radiant heat) in the porch floor if that would cut it.  I got a big fat no.  As a matter of fact, in the 30 minute conversation I had with him, he kept saying no, no, no, absolutely not.  I started to feel like he wasn't even listening to me...then he says, "What is FPSF anyway?"  When I called him, the FIRST thing I said was, "Are you familiar with FPSF?"  He was a jerk to act like he knew what I was talking about when he had no clue.  How RUDE.

On the low end of the yard the shallow foundation will only save me 14" of digging & materials, but on the higher end it'll save me 2'!  Since it's just me and a shovel (can't get heavy equipment up here) I'd REALLY like to go the shallow route.
Anyone know how to update local codes?  
Flaming bags of poo at his front door probably isn't the way to go...right?


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## glennjanie (May 5, 2007)

Sorry Bethany:
They have their codes and for whatever reason, they'll hang on to them untill you and I die. "We can't beat city hall".
Glenn


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