# Dormer Roof Fried Shingles



## Pavesa (Sep 1, 2014)

Hi

I'm new to the forum and hoping I can get some thoughts about a roof issue I have.

I have an old house in Nova Scotia - about 150 years old - and made of pretty sturdy materials, I think cedar in many places. When I bought it, it was in solid but superficially rather neglected condition. I've done loads of work on it myself; window frame repair, wall repair and wall shingling, installed a new shower room, built a woodshed (real beaut), loads of stuff.

Since buying the house, I've known that the front (north) half of the roof needs reshingling, particularly the dormer which seems to get fried by the sun and blown to hell by noreasters. The back of the house and L are pretty OK. Every major gale takes away more shingle tabs off the dormer. There seems to be no leakage at all into the building which made me think that probably the ice and water shield underneath was keeping it sealed. I spoke to a roofer a couple of years ago and he thought probably it was ok and the steep angle was making the water run off pretty quick. We talked about replacing just the shingles on the dormer but he said it would be difficult to impossible because although the shingles on the rest of the roof are mostly intact they're also rather brittle.

I finally took the plunge and took a closer look today and to my horror found gaps between shingles where the tabs had blown off but no ice and water at all, just wood.

I have no real experience at all of roofing and unfortunately, at least for now (might possibly change in the short term), very little budget.

I'm kind of wondering about my options. 

I can't replace the whole north half of the roof, out of the question for now. One thought is to get some roll roofing and just cover the dormer roof, nailing it firmly in place at, say, 9" intervals and protect it with that until I can get a budget to get the whole north half replaced. The other possibility is that the roofer is wrong and a skilled roofer (if they exist around here - not sure) could replace just the dormer roof. Maybe carefully tarred ice and watershield would be a better temporary fix.

As I mentioned, it's a pretty solid place and I think it's a relatively recent issue and I doubt there is structural damage but even if there was I can't fix it now.

Any ideas?

Thanks


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## JoeD (Sep 1, 2014)

It is a bad idea to be replacing a roof in sections. I would do the whole roof at the same time. Roll roofing is viable temporary option.


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## Pavesa (Sep 1, 2014)

Hi JoeD

thanks for the thoughts.

Just a couple of other things.

1) Should I try and remove the existing shingles from the dormer? My thought is probably not as I'm very cautious about damaging the rest of the roof which as I mention is pretty fragile. Probably best to remove the existing loose tabs that are serving little purpose and put the rolled roof over that.

2) I'd tend to lay the roll roofing horizontally, working up the roof.

3) Should I plan on using tar to attach the rolled roof or would just roof nails sealed with tar be enough?

Thanks for any further thoughts on things I might have missed - I've not done this before..

cheers


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## nealtw (Sep 1, 2014)

Welcome to the site. How many sq ft on the dormer compared to the rest of that side of the house? Does the dormer meet the roof at the peak or further down the roof?
Is the dormer over finished living space and do you have venting from the soffit to the ridge?


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## JoeD (Sep 2, 2014)

Whether you remove the shingles or not will depend on their condition. Since this is basically a temporary repair, if the shingles are flat I would just go over them. If they are not flat and are curling up at the corners you will need to remove them.

Nail the top edge and tar under the bottom edge then nail it and put a dab of tar over each nail.


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## Pavesa (Sep 2, 2014)

Hi

thanks very much for the replies.

The dormer starts about 3' below the apex of the roof of the house. I calculate that the area of the front half of the roof excluding the dormer is about 700 sq ft and the area of the dormer is about 100 sq ft. Although I describe the rest of the roof as fragile, all of the shingles are intact with no missing tabs. It really is just the dormer that's in bad shape. In fact many of the tabs have blown off on the southwest side and it would be very easy just to pull off the remainder to leave a relatively flat surface with just the upper part of the shingles that is nailed to the roof remaining.

The dormer is over the upstairs hallway. This is a very old house and there never has been any ventilation between the soffit and the ridge. In fact there was no ventilation into the roofspace at all when we bought the place so the first summer I put vents into both ends of the main roof and into the L together with cutting a vent from the main roof into the L.

I do actually have some architectural shingles and I'm wondering whether I could shingle rather than use roll roofing in this temporary fix.

Thanks for any thoughts..


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## nealtw (Sep 2, 2014)

You might re-roof the dormer and step out sideways above that to the peak. But while working on anything up there you likely will do more damage to the old roof. If you have water up there without good venting, you my find other problems.


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## Pavesa (Sep 2, 2014)

Hi nealtw

thanks for the thoughts. The new piece of roof would have to be woven into the original shingles which are pretty brittle so I think it would probably do more harm than good. Am I right that you think shingling over the existing shingles is a viable option rather than using roll roofing? It would be my preference; I have more than enough packs of architectural shingles to do it (= no cash outlay and my budget is very limited) and it would look a lot better even though the roof is currently black and my packs of shingles are silver gray.

The roof at some point in its history has had water get in at the bottom of the valleys because the wallpaper at end of the upstairs hall by the dormer window has water marks, although it does feel quite dry to the touch now - the main reason why I thought an ice and water shield must be protecting it. The upstairs hall hasn't been decorated for maybe 50+ years and it would be surprising if nobody had ever neglected the place over that time scale. I'm hoping that I've caught this before too much water has got in. We had hurricane Bertha in early August and the occasional downpour since. I've kept a pretty close eye on that roof and my suspicions were only very raised recently - I think after Bertha - by a light coloured band seemingly between 2 shingles - the colour of wood - so I thought I should take a closer look. Still, it may have been getting in and running down the roof boards and into the walls or woodwork so invisible in the upstairs hall.

Fingers crossed!


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## oldognewtrick (Sep 2, 2014)

Pavesa, first off  to House Repair Talk!

Now, about your roof...I hate to see you throw good money after bad. If you shingle over the existing and it's a dimensional, it will probably leak again. They are not meant to be laid over. If you think it may be a short period of time before you re roof the front, I would suggest tarping the area with a heavy poly tarp. You can get them in color, even black. My guess, $25.00, and you won't pay for an extra layer of shingles when you roof. Tractor Supply has some 10 mil tarps that are thicker than the blue ones, if you have one in your area.


Just my:2cents:


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## nealtw (Sep 2, 2014)

Oldog's thought are likely worth more than 2 cents.


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## Pavesa (Sep 2, 2014)

Hi oldognewtrick

thanks for your welcome to House Repair Talk and also your thoughts on my issue, this is all new to me and I really appreciate the thoughts and suggestions.

By dimensional, I assume you mean there's a thickness to the old shingles on the roof which pushes shingles attached to them out of line. Food for thought, maybe the thing is to remove all the shingles from the dorma section with the exception of a part maybe 8"-9" above the valley so there's an overlap with the existing roof. I guess another way of achieving that would be just to remove all the tabs from the existing shingles on the dormer, leaving just the top half which nailed to the roof. This would be flat and just 1/8" thick and perhaps would be a reasonable surface for attaching new shingles.

I'm personally rather reluctant to go with tarp as I'm sure they must deteriorate much faster than permanent roofing materials. My situation is stressful enough without knowing that there's a clock urgently ticking on raising thousands of $ to get the roof repaired within months. I do plan to get it done as soon as I possibly can in any case but the world is being very fickle at the moment and lots of random stuff is going on that's outside anyone's control.


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## nealtw (Sep 2, 2014)

If venting is questionable you want ice sheild over the lower wall and felt over the rest, bare wood is the way to go. I think oldog will just say to buy 2 or 3 tarps and change as needed for as long as it takes.


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## oldognewtrick (Sep 3, 2014)

Putting a roll roofing material over the old shingles will create another  set of problems. Top nailing will compromise the membrane and you won't be any better off than putting a tarp on it. Don't worry about starting a clock ticking on starting repairs, that ships already sailed. Sorry.


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## bud16415 (Sep 3, 2014)

You have done a great job describing your place and roof. Any way you could post a photo of the condition. For some reason I see your roof in my mind as really high roof. 

I&#8217;m up against something similar with a couple different roof problems that the time is growing near to get them fixed before winter and like you the funding isn&#8217;t there to do the major correct reroofing job. 

I just was wondering what kind of access you have to yours? I don&#8217;t enjoy roof work and my plan is to not have to do it again come spring. I have never had luck with the cheap tarps making it thru a winter around here with the cold and winds even covering a wood pile. 

My plan on my one roof facet that sounds to be about as old and dried out as yours is to start at the bottom and work up a few rows at a time. Remove, clean up, ice guard then new shingles. That&#8217;s on the steep pitch small roof on the main house. And I will be building staging of some sort as I go up.
Half the roof on the garage needs redone and it has rolled roofing on it now that&#8217;s 10 years past its expiration date. I want to do tin on it but that&#8217;s also waiting and it&#8217;s going to get a new layer of rolled roofing.


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## Pavesa (Sep 3, 2014)

Hi

I'm attaching photos, I hope it works ok. This is the front, north side of the house and the right side looking at the front is the west, worse side.

neiltw when you talk about ice&water and membrane, I wonder if you think the dormer has walls or are you referring to the walls of the house. The dormer doesn't have walls as you can see from the photos.

I left the photos at high resolution and the zoomed ones show the situation very well at least on my pc but they seem to be compressed on upload, so I don't know how well they'll be seen. I can post them on another host with the link in full detail if needs be.


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## nealtw (Sep 3, 2014)

For some reason a shed roof dormer is what came to mind. Maybe because that's what I am building this week.
Nice looking house.


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## oldognewtrick (Sep 3, 2014)

That's not what I would consider a dormer roof, it's called a gable. I, along with Neal, envisioned a shed roof dormer with walls. I would strongly advise against trying to work on this yourself unless you are a roofer by trade. Gravity always wins.


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## Pavesa (Sep 3, 2014)

Hi

sorry about the confusion, I'm a newbie at all this..

Hi bud16415 mine's a one and a half storey house. It's a real pain when funding isn't really there to get the job done properly as you want, you need to get the best from limited resources. We get some awful gales; noreasters in winter that develop into huge blizzards. See this

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saZnpFBVW_U[/ame]

You can imagine the effect of this on 3-tab shingles. And the summer we have tropical storms and hurricanes.

My plan is to try and get a local independent guy to do the actual roof work but be the slave bringing him the roof materials so I can keep a close eye on what he's doing.


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## Pavesa (Sep 3, 2014)

Hi

I'd just like check whether it being a gable rather an a dormer matters so far as the suggestions that have been given so far?

Thanks..


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## bud16415 (Sep 3, 2014)

I&#8217;m glad I asked for photos and what you posted is what I had envisioned except I was picturing a full 2 stories. I know what your winds are like and we get similar winds coming across the great lakes when frozen bringing that artic cold air along. 

The way your valleys  are woven is how they used to do them here, and makes replacing just part of it tough. I don&#8217;t know how you could really seal the valley with any kind of rolled roof except with a lot of mastic and hope for good results. Would also be hard to tarp without going up and over the ridge line and the wind would want to lift it right up. 

To do just the gable I would think to reweave it without breaking a lot of shingles he will want to go over at least a few shingles on the main roof and tie it in. in doing that and removing those shingles you can run ice guard down the valley. I don&#8217;t know at that point if I would flash the valley or do the weave again.  I would say pick out the shingles you want and do it with those and in a year or so do the rest the match will look good even if you take up the new ones on the main roof you are putting down now. I agree if you are not sure about doing it safely bring in someone with the right equipment to stage it up. 

Maybe olddog will give us his thoughts on the best way to approach the valley now.


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## oldognewtrick (Sep 3, 2014)

There really is no good way to repair the gable and tie into the roof. If the shingles are brittle you will just transfer the point of water intrusion. I would somehow find funding to replace at least the total front. There are companies around here that advertise monthly payments.


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## Pavesa (Sep 3, 2014)

Hi

thanks again for all the help and advice on all this.

I really am reluctant to try and borrow my way through this. Firstly, firms that do financing like this will charge top dollar on their work and there'll be disguised top dollar on the financing as well. As well as this, the financing will just sold on to a bank and they're all shysters and crooks so who wants to get involved with that. Not something I'm going to do in these uncertain times.

I agree with old dog that trying to weave a repair into the existing shingles wouldn't work. Even if the tabs didn't snap off, they'd be weakened from bending and doing stuff in the valley runs the risk of breaching the ice & water shield seal at that point. I think "leave well alone" as much as possible on the existing intact roof is best.

I'm minded to use my architectural shingles to create a cap over the disintegrating gable roof. From our discussions, it seems that at least the tabs should be removed where the repair is to be made. This could be done to, say, about 18" above the valley and then my architectural shingles could be placed over the prepared area, with an overlap to the existing untampered with roof (at the bottom by the valley) of about 6". The underneath of the join between the bottom new shingles and the existing roof could be tarred to create a seal and then the new shingles just installed in a regular manner covering the gable roof with the area shown by the red line on this photo.

The last 2 winters we've had giant ferocious blizzards - the one last winter bringing about the current situation - and I really don't think a tarp solution would survive more than a couple of those and I don't want expense further down the line as early as next maybe February of having to spend more money to replace what is a temporary solution. Real roofing materials have the big advantage of at least being being tough and resilient.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this approach. If it really won't work well, more thinking to do...


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## bud16415 (Sep 3, 2014)

It boils down to do you feel the valley area is ok and will it last for a while. Water running down the gable roof with your plan will do fine. Water running down the main roof will come to the valley and try and go straight under the cut shingles. What will stop it is the tar job sealing the bottom edge of the shingles down. I would tar (or something) the whole valley to start. Then tar (or something) the new shingles down at the start.


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## inspectorD (Sep 3, 2014)

Now..I'm not steppin on any toes here... but you should do this right the first time...or pay more in the long run. Your trying to fix an issue that is one of the most important parts of your home. If your looking for a new answer, everyone here... all professionals, have already said. Remove and replace. There is nothing to think about, but you are able to do whatever you like... and suffer the leaks when those big rains and snows you talk about show up.

My advice, get a few roofers out  to give you quotes, see who will work with you if you already have the materials, Barter something you have, or can do.... but just don't half *** the roof... your just waiting for it to leak. Then the stains start inside, then the mold, then the damage triples. 
Call your local bank, credit union, State office for small loans. You know the drill. Try the trade schools.
Talk to local organizations, Church groups that donate money to help out, anything you can think of... it never hurts to ask. My wife's great grandparents borrowed money from their church to by this farm 100 years ago.... paid them back in 2 years after they did so well with the farm.. Interesting ain't it. 

Good luck, and PLEASE let us know what happens. It is a cute home.


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## Pavesa (Sep 3, 2014)

Hi and thanks for the thoughts and suggestions. I am very mindful of trying to do the right thing here and I'll certainly look into what kind of financial help might be available for this sort of thing.

I believe the valley is sound. It's where all the water from the gable ends up and there's no leak at all visible inside the building. In fact there's no signs at all of water getting into the house at all although with the gaps in the shingles I'm sure some limited amounts of water must be getting in. The issues I can see with my approach (and there are surely others I don't see) are

1) determining at what point to shingle down to. My thought is to go to a foot above the valley to minimize the likelihood of water wicking up and maybe getting in, notwithstanding that the bottom shingle is tarred. Looking across the road, I can see a house with the same roof and from the rain this morning there's a narrowing triangle of dampness in the valleys going from about 8" at the bottom to nothing at the top.

2) The roofer has to stand somewhere to do this and can he possibly stand on the existing roof, and valley, without damage causing damage and a leak.

Do roofers have any way of doing things to avoid (2)?

Again, I really do appreciate the time and effort you people I don't even know are putting into advising a newbie on my issue.

I have a sort of irregular income which, god willing, may just double in January and then I can get this really fixed next year. The crisis is taking a while to go away in some self-employed corners of the economy. I have friends in the same situation.


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## nealtw (Sep 3, 2014)

More often out here we see a metal flashing in the valley that is 2ft wide with a raised center to stop the water from moving across the valley.
http://www.sustainableroofingsoluti...nest-grade-flashing-materials-and-techniques/


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## Pavesa (Sep 3, 2014)

Hi Nealtw

that's a very good arrangement. I'm not surprised it isn't on this house. Although it was in sound but rather dilapidated condition there were some real goofs:

1) almost no guttering

2) where it did exist, the downpipes were upside down so water ran out (!)

3) therefore flooded basement

4) concrete in basement was on a slope AWAY from the sump pump giving 3" of water in a rainstorm and a foot in a hurricane

5) No shingling of the returns on the gables, just bare wood - invitation to rot

6) sky visible through garage roof

7) totally fried and shingles on small roof on the east side and on the sunroom on the north.

and that's just the roof related stuff!

and the list goes on and on.. sewer pipes not airtight. 

Buying an old house has all sorts of hidden wonders! Still, it has (so far as I currently know) turned out to be just idiotic things that needed doing and the materials are great. Underfloor beams with a full 12" by 4" section and almost as hard as concrete, wood floors with 3" of hardwood and floor boards and loads of cedar. 2 layers of cedar roof boards each 1" thick on rafters a full 5" by 5". Fantastic..


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## nealtw (Sep 3, 2014)

It sounds like it was well built.


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## nealtw (Sep 3, 2014)

Often there is two layers of roofing on a house. Areyou sure you aren't looking at a lighter colour shingle under these?


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## Pavesa (Sep 4, 2014)

Hi Neiltw

I went up the ladder and had a close look and it definitely is wood sadly.

I just had a roofer around and his suggestion is to re-shingle the gable and run shingles about 8-15" beyond the valley onto the main roof. On the main roof they would be nailed on top of the existing shingles and then tarred around to seal the edge on the main roof. He says the valley is really pretty much dead as well (although not leaking) and he wouldn't be nailing the new layer of shingles into the valley so it wouldn't be punctured but it would be protected.


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## bud16415 (Sep 4, 2014)

That was kind of my suggestion minus the weave. It would cover you over into the better roofing and if the edge was sealed down should be a good temporary fix I would think. Anything is going to be better than nothing.


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## Pavesa (Sep 4, 2014)

Hi bud16415

that's absolutely right. I have another guy coming so we'll see what he says. The guy who came round said he could do it for $125 which is very reasonable


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## bud16415 (Sep 4, 2014)

That sounds very reasonable. Just be careful if he gets hurt or something and he's not bonded. I know you plan on keeping your eye on him. 


Sent from my iPhone using Home Repair


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## Pavesa (Sep 5, 2014)

Hi bud16415

he's pretty well known in the area and does a fair bit of work around the place so I think we're fine there. He's in his 60's so I figure he knows what he's about by now.


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## bud16415 (Sep 5, 2014)

Have him cut the shingles so you get a nice straight edge along the valley and it shouldn&#8217;t even be too noticeable. You are right age counts for something.  

Post some photos when you get done. 

I don&#8217;t think I mentioned it before but you have a very nice old home there. I&#8217;m an old home lover and they don&#8217;t make them like that anymore. Looks to be in fine shape its lucky to have found you. Love the big freeze boards.


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## Pavesa (Sep 5, 2014)

Yes, one thing I have found is that this house needed everything, insulation, rewiring, heating upstairs, upstairs shower room, upgraded downstairs bathroom and kitchen to name but a few. 

I hear lots from people locally who have had bad experiences of half, and badly done jobs. They've paid for a house they think has been upgraded only to find half-assed work which either does major damage or simply hasn't really been done properly - eg/ insulation. By buying a house that had none of this done I've been able either to do or organize these things myself so it gets done right.

For example we burn 2.5 cords of wood thru winter and about 1/4 tank of heating oil and some friends with a house about 1/3 the size get through 3.5 cords. It's because I organized the insulation in this house whereas they bought it supposedly already insulated, but actually not properly.

It's a good thing to buy a place cheap that's basically sound but needs everything because you end up with a better job (notwithstanding the temporary fix I'm having to do on this roof!).


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