# rewiring to fix open ground?



## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 16, 2013)

We recently bought a 2 story red brick (w/ attic and basement)  built in 1941.  While investigating issues  with added hum  in my guitar amps  we found that 90% of the outlets in the house  show an open ground issue on the tester.   The wiring is a mess, there are multiple fuse boxes   and a mix of "knob and tube" and more modern wiring.

  We plan to have the  hole house rewired eventually but need to have a new roof put on first,  i cant deal with the noise issues with my guitar amps untill then though.   I was thinking maybe i could just have new wire ran to my music room for now.  Could running new wire to that room including a ground fix the problem?

  Would it be as simple as running conduit  through my basement wall and up the outside of the house to the attic and then down into the 2nd floor music room outlets?   Any idea what it would cost me to have someone do this?


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## Wuzzat? (Dec 16, 2013)

Brandon_Hanley said:


> i cant deal with the noise issues with my guitar amps untill then though.


First plug your guitar into a grounded outlet and make sure the 60 Hz hum is gone.

Finding a ground and complying with whatever version of the NEC your area is using is not quite the same thing.
If you run a single insulated ground #14 or #12 conductor somehow to a ground, it will be small enough to hide under a bead of caulk or quarter-round.
Also, a large capacitor run to almost any ground will give you an AC ground which should reduce your noise problem; I don't know if the NEC addresses this arrangement.

The NEC language sometimes has logical fallacies, on purpose or by accident, so if you post NEC excerpts that allow or prohibit whatever method you propose then several of us will be glad to try to translate this into plain English.

Speaking of logical fallacies, if you believe "If the shoe fits, wear it." says anything about the other three cases, you have already fallen into the fallacy trap.


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 16, 2013)

Wuzzat? said:


> First plug your guitar into a grounded outlet and make sure the 60 Hz hum is gone.
> 
> Finding a ground and complying with whatever version of the NEC your area is using is not quite the same thing.
> If you run a single insulated ground #14 or #12 conductor somehow to a ground, it will be small enough to hide under a bead of caulk or quarter-round.
> ...



i've had the amps in the add on room with modern wiring for the past 2 years and they sound excelent,   the moment i plugged them into the outlet upstairs i knew there was a problem.  i really should have used the tester up stairs before agreeing to turn my old music room into the kids play room.  i keep my outlet tester with my amps  because i usually check every outlet before plugging into it for the first time.

you mentioned hiding a ground  but what would i hook it to to ground it?    the rest of the post i dont understand at all,  not sure what any of that means.


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## Wuzzat? (Dec 16, 2013)

Brandon_Hanley said:


> i've had the amps in the add on room with modern wiring for the past 2 years and they sound excelent,   the moment i plugged them into the outlet upstairs i knew there was a problem.  i really should have used the tester up stairs before agreeing to turn my old music room into the kids play room.  i keep my outlet tester with my amps  because i usually check every outlet before plugging into it for the first time.
> 
> you mentioned hiding a ground  but what would i hook it to to ground it?    the rest of the post i dont understand at all,  not sure what any of that means.


And some of it's bad advice, unfortunately.  Sorry.

Revision A:
The National Electric Code has rules for providing earth grounds to outlets, some rather restrictive.  I don't think you are allowed to attach to the nearest cold water pipe, for instance.
However, if you are allowed to snake a single insulated ground wire by some route to your breaker panel, you won't have to snake new thick two-wire-with-ground Romex cable inside finished walls.
Also, if you only want one outlet grounded it would good if it is located near the circuit breaker panel ["load center"] in an unfinished basement.  Then, running Romex shouldn't be a problem.

If you provide more details and photos for your particular case, someone well-versed in whatever edition of the Code that is used in your area can maybe help you.  
Your local permitting dept. can tell you what version of the Code with what amendments they are using.

You should also be aware that in some cases three-light outlet testers will lead you astray but I think for your case your readings are valid.


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 16, 2013)

Wuzzat? said:


> And some of it's bad advice, unfortunately.  Sorry.
> 
> Revision A:
> The National Electric Code has rules for providing earth grounds to outlets, some rather restrictive.  I don't think you are allowed to attach to the nearest cold water pipe, for instance.


  are there any other simple ways to get a good ground  for even one outlet  untill i can get the whole house rewired in the next 2 years? 



Wuzzat? said:


> If you only want one outlet grounded it would good if it is near the circuit breaker panel ["load center"] in an unfinished basement because then you will not have to snake new two-wire-with-ground Romex cable inside finished walls.


  sadly the room i need a grounded outlet in is on the second floor and the panel box is in the basement.



Wuzzat? said:


> If you provide more details and photos for your particular case, someone well-versed in whatever edition of the Code that is used in your area can maybe help you.


   anything in particular i should take photos of?



Wuzzat? said:


> You should also be aware that in some cases three-light outlet testers will lead you astray.


  they come in handy though.  when they have shown everything was correct i've never had a problem,  when they show there is something wrong it gives me a heads up to try another outlet or pull the outlet to check  before wasting time lugging a 70lb amp around.


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## nealtw (Dec 16, 2013)

When you rewire, you will be installing a ground plate or ground rods, why not install one now and run a ground to that outlet, just temp up the side of the building.


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## CallMeVilla (Dec 16, 2013)

Listen to Brandon ... 'Needs a temporary fix ... will rewire completely eventually ... does not have a lot of electrical experience.'

Keep it simple and responsive to Brandon's needs.  Neal's idea is the most helpful and practical.  A ground rod on the outside connected to the upstairs outlet would do the job until he can get a rewire.


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 17, 2013)

nealtw said:


> When you rewire, you will be installing a ground plate or ground rods, why not install one now and run a ground to that outlet, just temp up the side of the building.


  i believe i already have one ground rod  on the opposite side of the house.   there is definatly some sort of "stake"  in the ground a few inches from the foundation  with a section  of some sort of wire  connecting it to the house.   not sure if thats what your talking about but its the first thing i thought of when reading your post.



CallMeVilla said:


> Listen to Brandon ... 'Needs a temporary fix ... will rewire completely eventually ... does not have a lot of electrical experience.'


 we hope to have the rewire done within 2 years.    we really want to do it now but need to have a metal roof put on as our main project of 2014.   there is nothing but baseball fields behind my house for a few hundred yards   to break the wind  that comes out of the hills so once a month or every other month we have to pay someone to go up and replace patches of shingles that are blown off.  its bleeding us dry  between paying someone to keep going up  and the damage to the second floor ceilings where it comes through the attic floor.

I will investigate more tomorow  and see if i can find where the ground rod hooks  and runs   and see  if i can find an easy way to run wire from the basement to attic  to drop into the room.   according to the outlet tester half the 1st floor  is wired correctly with ground but none  on the second floor have ground.

allot of the plumbing (damn near all)  is copper  so if all else fails  that may be the easiest.

any special requests for what to take photos of to help you all help me?


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## nealtw (Dec 17, 2013)

In older houses you can usually find a clear path beside the plumbing stack from the attic to the basement. If you find that opening, close it up at each floor too. It's a great way for a fire to get from a basement to the attic so any path like that should be closed.


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## JoeD (Dec 17, 2013)

A ground rod is not the solution. The ground wire needs to go back to the panel. where the neutral and ground are bonded.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNZC782SzAQ&noredirect=1[/ame]


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## CallMeVilla (Dec 17, 2013)

Nice video  ...  So the simple, temporary solution might be an exterior ground (insulated, not bare) that goes back into the basement to the main panel.  

Can you do that?

PS  The insulation protects dogs from doing something stupid.


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 17, 2013)

CallMeVilla said:


> Nice video  ...  So the simple, temporary solution might be an exterior ground (insulated, not bare) that goes back into the basement to the main panel.
> 
> Can you do that?
> 
> PS  The insulation protects dogs from doing something stupid.


   there is already an exterior ground rod connected to one of the panels.   problem is i have 2 pannels,   one newer looking panel  with lots of flip switch breakers that are poorly labled in the basement,   and one old panel with 4-5 fuse sort of things that screw in and are shaped like corks  that is mounted  to what used to be an exterior wall before the additional room was built on.

it kind of seems like the newer panel was used as a sort of sub panel running off of the old panel.


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## Wuzzat? (Dec 17, 2013)

JoeD said:


> A ground is not the solution. The ground wire needs to go back to the panel. where the neutral and ground are bonded.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNZC782SzAQ&noredirect=1



Can he legitimately run a buried heavy wire outside that joins a new rod to the other rod that grounds the panel? Depending on the conductor sizes & lengths it might be safe and code compliant.

Can he legitimately run ground wires on the building exterior surface to the load center?

Thanks for the video.  I'll study it.
I know Mr. Holt makes a fortune teaching this stuff but as an electrical/electronic engineer I find his interpretation of the behavior of electrons to be a bit bizarre, at times.
But he's rich and I'm not. . .

On the plus side, he seems to be surprised at some of the latest code changes.  And so am I.


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## CallMeVilla (Dec 17, 2013)

My last post on this  ...  I would suggest running an insulated ground wire inside water tight conduit from the upstairs room ... run it outside then kick it inside to the basement ... connect to the NEW box.  This ground would give you a temporary ground until you can rewire the house

Relatively inexpensive, efficient, and properly done.

Gotta get back to work ...


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 17, 2013)

on another note i just tried to pull the outlet in question for photos  and i couldnt get it out far enough to get a good photo  but it doesnt look like the knob and tube that goes through alot of the house.   it looks like its got the plastic coating on,   2 black connected to  one side of the outlet and 2 white to the other,   there is also 2 bare peices of copper wire that looks like it comes out of the same outer plastic coating as the other wires and it connects to the metal box holding the outlet.

not sure what that means since i thought that would mean its grounded but its giving me the problems with amps  and the tester says its open ground.

any ideas there?

ill try to get some photos loaded of the 3 (found another one) panel boxes  and some other stuff later today.


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## Wuzzat? (Dec 17, 2013)

Brandon_Hanley said:


> on another note i just tried to pull the outlet in question for photos  and i couldnt get it out far enough to get a good photo  but it doesnt look like the knob and tube that goes through alot of the house.   it looks like its got the plastic coating on,   2 black connected to  one side of the outlet and 2 white to the other,   there is also 2 bare peices of copper wire that looks like it comes out of the same outer plastic coating as the other wires and it connects to the metal box holding the outlet.
> 
> not sure what that means since i thought that would mean its grounded but its giving me the problems with amps  and the tester says its open ground.
> 
> ...


Put a 120 v bulb in a pigtail socket from the H/W store and go between
the black and white - bulb lights?
the black and bare - bulb lights?
the white and bare - bulb lights?


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 17, 2013)

Wuzzat? said:


> Put a 120 v bulb in a pigtail socket from the H/W store and go between
> the black and white - bulb lights?
> the black and bare - bulb lights?
> the white and bare - bulb lights?



would a multi meter or test light work for this or does it have to be the bulb/pigtail?


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## Wuzzat? (Dec 17, 2013)

Brandon_Hanley said:


> would a multi meter or test light work for this or does it have to be the bulb/pigtail?


Better a big incand. bulb, to eliminate phantom voltages.  
Putting a meter across the bulb will give you even more info about the integrity of the connections in your house.

If you have a metal cold water pipe entering your house and a long skinny extension cord, carefully measure

Black to white - should be within 5% or 10% of 120v
black to bare - should be within 5% or 10% of 120v
black to pipe entry point - should be within 5% or 10% of 120v
white to bare - less than one or two volts
white to pipe entry point - less than one or two volts
bare to pipe entry point - zero


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## bud16415 (Dec 18, 2013)

I&#8217;m far from an expert on audio related problems. That being said your hum sounds more like one being caused by a ground issue than the lack of ground or poor ground with noise on it. I would try a thing called a ground lift adapter as an experiment and see if the issue improved. Most places don&#8217;t call them that what they are is the cheater plug adapter to use a three prong plug and old two prong outlet. They are only about $1 at any hardware store. 

I run all my audio thru an Uninterrupted power supply that has power conditioning also and that seemed to solve a lot of similar issues. If you have access to one that might be something to try also. 

That&#8217;s my two cents for what it&#8217;s worth.


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## Wuzzat? (Dec 18, 2013)

JoeD said:


> A ground rod is not the solution. The ground wire needs to go back to the panel. where the neutral and ground are bonded.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNZC782SzAQ&noredirect=1


By turning off the sound until the slides came up I was able to tolerate this gentleman for almost the whole time.  I especially cannot stand the hand-waving.

BTW, interestingly enough, although I study body language (it never lies), I have never looked up the official meaning of hand waving.  Maybe because where I hang out nobody waves their hands like that.

In my opinion: 
He sometimes gives either-or answers to things that are more complex and so those answers are, I believe, wrong.  Some of the last slides appear to fall into this category and appear to contradict earlier slides.

I don't doubt that he is popular, and probably no person is harmed by following his advice.  Misinformed maybe, but not harmed.

Can this gentleman sue me for libel?  Only if he can prove damages, that people actually read what I post and believed me and he lost business as a result.
How do I know this?  
Because an electrician on another forum defamed me all over the place, I knew what county he was licensed in and I seriously considered making an example of this disgruntled person by suing him for defamation & libel.   
So I consulted lawyers, in return for any electrical advice they might need.
I find out that since he never posted my real name I had no case.  He only defamed my forum name.

That dead dog story was an anecdote.  Science cannot base itself on anecdotes, or on faith, or on matters of opinion, or on hearsay.
Maybe he likes dogs.  He once compared stray voltages to stray dogs.


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## bud16415 (Dec 19, 2013)

Seams there are devices made just for this purpose, the one I see most in googling this is called a (Hum X) it&#8217;s a filter designed to eliminate ground loop. And what you may want to buy if my above suggested test does prove to show you indeed have a ground loop condition. The links below are some interesting reads on the subject, and point out a potential danger in playing your instrument without a ground long term. The last one has an interesting concept of using a ground fault outlet, wired as if being used in a circuit without a ground wire. Others may comment on that solution and the safety of that. Could a guy make a short extension cord with a two prong plug on one end and a GFCI outlet on the other in a box and get an acceptable level of safety while eliminating the ground loop? That I don&#8217;t know. I know they make short adapters with GFCI built in them that have three prong plugs and carry the ground thru.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBEvnSmXc84

http://www.harmonycentral.com/t5/Guitars-and-Amps/Banish-Ground-Loop-Hum/ba-p/34633804

http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/problem_solving.html


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 19, 2013)

i've thought of getting something like that  but the humx and other similar devices only get rid of the hum but still risk shock   and the gfci outlets  only fix the risk of shock.   i'd like to get rid of both.


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 19, 2013)

quoted from HERE



> *OPEN GROUND receptacles indicate that the bare copper wire in the sheathed cable is not connected to the green
> screw on the receptacle.* It also occurs frequently in older homes originally wired with a 2-wire system (knob and
> tube or duplex wiring) where an upgrades has included a 3-prong receptacle. This is an unsafe practice and does
> not comply with current Electrical Codes  which requires that original and replacement outlet be grounded correctly.
> ...



my ground is only hooked to the metal box behind this outlet,   could my problem be as simple as unhooking it from the metal outlet box and attatching it to a green screw on the outlet or am i missing something


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 19, 2013)

also what is the trick to getting the outlet out to work on it?   either the wire is too short or it wont pull through the back of the box.      while trying to get it out far enough to show the wires behind it  i've tried everything short of putting both feet on the wall and pulling on the outlet with both hands like a cartoon.    i did get it out far enough that i could see the ground is connected  to the top and bottom of the metal outlet box    and that white wires are connected to both silver screws on the outlet and black wires connected to both brass colored screws.   and there is a green screw like the quote above mentions  with nothing attatched to it


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## bud16415 (Dec 19, 2013)

Sometimes older wiring or some electricians seemed to really scrimp on the wire length. Some of the older boxes were not as deep and the kept the wires short making them harder to work on. You have two blacks and two whites that means one black and white are feeding the box from someplace (could be another outlet) and the other pair is going off to feed something else. The bare wires are the ground the white is the common and the black is hot. The ground wires should be joined together in a way that connects them both to the box and also that green screw on the outlet. That green screw goes internally to the bigger round ground prong hole in the outlet. 

Sounds like the outlet isn&#8217;t grounded at this point but you have wires in there to try grounding it with. If that&#8217;s the case you are using it now without a ground and the noise isn&#8217;t a ground loop of any kind I described. 

After turning off the power and if you are going to take it apart to get in there and work figure out what black wire is the power to the box and mark it for future reference. You might have to take the wires off powered down and then carefully have them apart turn the power on and check with your meter for the hot black wire. Then shut the power back off. There should be a clamp in the back holding the wires and you may be able to get a little more length if you loosen that clamp. The ground wire and the common should be the same potential with the hot black wire when testing. Get a piece of green or bare wire and fix the grounds up like they are supposed to be and give it a try again.


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 19, 2013)

bud16415 said:


> Sometimes older wiring or some electricians seemed to really scrimp on the wire length. Some of the older boxes were not as deep and the kept the wires short making them harder to work on. You have two blacks and two whites that means one black and white are feeding the box from someplace (could be another outlet) and the other pair is going off to feed something else. The bare wires are the ground the white is the common and the black is hot. The ground wires should be joined together in a way that connects them both to the box and also that green screw on the outlet. That green screw goes internally to the bigger round ground prong hole in the outlet.
> 
> Sounds like the outlet isnt grounded at this point but you have wires in there to try grounding it with. If thats the case you are using it now without a ground and the noise isnt a ground loop of any kind I described.
> 
> After turning off the power and if you are going to take it apart to get in there and work figure out what black wire is the power to the box and mark it for future reference. You might have to take the wires off powered down and then carefully have them apart turn the power on and check with your meter for the hot black wire. Then shut the power back off. There should be a clamp in the back holding the wires and you may be able to get a little more length if you loosen that clamp. The ground wire and the common should be the same potential with the hot black wire when testing. Get a piece of green or bare wire and fix the grounds up like they are supposed to be and give it a try again.



ok i went for another look and   yes i have 2 seperate  sets of wires.   not sure what it would be feeding,  this is the only outlet in the room.     

the grounds are not touching each other,   one is connected to the clamp at the top  and one to the clamp at the bottom  of the metal box.

couple of questions

1.  do i need to use any special gauge or type of wire? im pretty sure i have some 12-2 laying around if that will work.

2 can i leave the insulation on it?

3.  do i need to connect the wire i add  to both  ground wires  or just fasten it in with one since both are connected to the box?


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 19, 2013)

is the forum unavailable  for anyone else?   i kept getting error messages for the past few minutes


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## havasu (Dec 19, 2013)

Yes, the site was down for a bit of time this morning. All is better now!


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## bud16415 (Dec 19, 2013)

By code the wire is to be bare or green for ground. Just twist them all together good and or connect them with a wire nut and run one to the green screw on the outlet. I&#8217;m not 100% sure how your local code calls for it to be done. But they all need to be together and one to the outlet and one to the box if it is a steel box. Plastic gets no ground wire.


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 19, 2013)

found a section of the same type of bare copper used for the grounds behind the outlet while waiting for a reply,  now i just need to  find some monster sized wire nuts and try to figure out how to shut the power off only to that room,   so i dont have the woman and kids bugging me  asking when ill turn the power back on every 5 minutes.


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## bud16415 (Dec 19, 2013)

Ya you really want the power off before you even try and pull the receptacle out especially with a metal box. Plug a lamp in it and have one of the kids yell (if old enough) when the light goes out. Then go to other rooms and see what&#8217;s also off and you will have a clue to what&#8217;s feeding what.


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## JoeD (Dec 19, 2013)

> Plug a lamp in it and have one of the kids yell (if old enough) when the light goes out



Plug in a radio and turn it up real loud. You will know when the circuit goes off. with out help.


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 19, 2013)

i wish it was that easy lol   would have to be one hell of a loud stereo.   i cant even hear my GF yelling for me when she's upstairs and im in the basement.   need a middle man  to relay the message.

or i could just crank the amp gain and volume up  and lay the guitar across the top of it.   pretty sure the neighbors 3 houses down would know when that thing quit squeeling.


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## nealtw (Dec 19, 2013)

Run an extention cord for some distance down the stairs so could hear a radio playing while flipping breakers.


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## bud16415 (Dec 20, 2013)

Do they still make radios that plug in? I know they do, we used to use walkie talkies for such things but now with everyone packing a cell that&#8217;s the method of choice over screaming. How many times have you called someone you were with in Walmart to figure out where they are at. 

There are devices on the market that you plug in an outlet and it sends a tone on the wire, you go to the basement with the other half of the device and touch the breakers to find the correct one. Another method I have seen is to get a heavy duty Xmas 120v flasher box and plug a 100 watt bulb into it go to the panel and use a clamp on amp meter to find the wire that&#8217;s pulsing like the light. I have seen electricians build a homemade load box with a switch to trip a breaker, never looked safe to me and if you see one described to build DIY I would not recommend doing that. I never trust any method and once I figure out what breaker it is I still check the wires before going to work on them. If there is even a remote possibility that someone is going to turn that breaker back on you need to post a sign or something warning (Life on the Line) or something meaningful. In an industrial setting we use a system of&#8221; lock out tag out&#8221;. But that&#8217;s not practical for home DIY. 

What I would recommend is taking the time once to go thru your house and map every outlet and light and then figure out what breaker powers each. For some reason there is a place to record that inside the panel but they are labeled so poorly it&#8217;s hard to figure out at least in the homes I have owned. Do it once and be done with the job and in an emergency you won&#8217;t have to mess around. It&#8217;s also good to know that outlets on the same circuit are broken up between different rooms etc.


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 21, 2013)

thanks for all the help folks.     i shut the power off and hooked the ground to the outlet  and it seems to have done the trick.   now im wondering how many other outlets are like this.

the whole house rewire we were planning may not be half as bad as we expected, if the rest of the 3 prong outlets have modern wire behind them also  and just need grounded that would be great,   i was expecting  knob and tube.   there is knob and tube wire hanging all over in the basement and attic  running here and there but im wondering if they just never pulled it when they installed the new pannel and ran the newer wiring to most of the rooms.


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## bud16415 (Dec 21, 2013)

Glad it worked out. My house they left all the knob and tube also. Take your time test it and rip it out. What worries me in your case is why anyone would wire grounds like that. And it would still be a good idea to pay a pro to look it over to see if they didn't do something else crazy. Don't be a stranger to the forum. And good luck with the music.


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 21, 2013)

bud16415 said:


> Glad it worked out.
> My house they left all the knob and tube also. Take your time test it and rip it out. What worries me in your case is why anyone would wire grounds like that. And it would still be a good idea to pay a pro to look it over to see if they didn't do something else crazy. Don't be a stranger to the forum. And good luck with the music.




im still going to post pictures   and stil going to have a pro come  and finish converting everything to more modern wiring   and make sure my family isnt going to burn to death


stranger?  nah lol not as long as this place is half as helpfull with the rest of the home repair catagories.  this is our first house and i want to learn to fix it up.


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## Wuzzat? (Dec 21, 2013)

Seems like insurance companies get nervous when houses have K&T.  

Also, your house may be lacking wall insulation to avoid overheating the old wiring.  This can checked by looking at your heating bills.

You could check if the remaining old wire is even carrying power.  If it does, finding the source and routing for the neutral and hot conductors can be challenging.


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 21, 2013)

Wuzzat? said:


> Seems like insurance companies get nervous when houses have K&T.
> 
> Also, your house may be lacking wall insulation to avoid overheating the old wiring.  This can checked by looking at your heating bills.
> 
> You could check if the remaining old wire is even carrying power.  If it does, finding the source and routing for the neutral and hot conductors can be challenging.



heating  bill was insane,   so we put in a wood burner last spring for this winter.  while putting the wood burner it we confirmed that the walls arent insulated,   just some sort of plaster crap with wooden slats coverng  the studs  then  brick.

some of the knob and tube is definatly still carrying power,   all the outlets in areas like hallways  and in a couple of rooms still have knob and tube behind them,   attic lights and outlets are all knob and tube and who knows what else.  im only going to mess with it on an as needed basis untill i can afford to have someone come and replace it all in the next year or two.


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 21, 2013)

well i thought it was fixed but after spending more time with it i  realize its not.   i hooked the ground up right in the outlet so im guessing the problem is somwhere between the back of the outlet box and panel box.


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## bud16415 (Dec 22, 2013)

What did your little three prong tester say?


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## Brandon_Hanley (Dec 22, 2013)

i didnt use it when i first added the ground  just turned the amp on and listened.    later  after trying to play though the amp and getting the noise  i used the tester and it still said open ground


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## nealtw (Dec 22, 2013)

Who ever ran the ground may have just gone to plumbing, cast irom stack or copper pipe, if the plumbing has been upgraded to plastic since, then the ground may haver been lost.


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## bud16415 (Dec 23, 2013)

In a lot of old houses I have seen where someone added an outlet or did some wiring and used a two conductor cable and a ground for the new work. They go as far as they can figuring  someday I will be upgrading and at least I will have a little bit of it done. They also go around and replace the old two prong outlets with 3&#8217;s for looks and convenience without adding the safety ground back to the panel. 

The only way I know to correct your problem is you have to figure out how your wires are run and what is feeding what and start at one end and work your way back to the point they tied into old and omitted a safety ground, and then fix it from there back to the panel. That could be easy or it could be hard. Lots of time the knob n tube is left to overhead lighting from the switch to the light on the first floor as people don&#8217;t want to ruin fancy plaster ceilings and have no access from above or below. In rewiring an old place the first floor mostly can be got from the basement and the second floor from the attic. They find a good place to run a chase up to the attic in a closet or something to get between floors. One of the biggest problems I have found with real old houses is the outside walls often sit on a big beam. To get a wire up into those walls from below you have to drill an angled hole sometimes. Old houses also have fire breaks in the walls that make it hard dropping wires down between the studs. 

The reason I mention all this is even if you hire a pro to do the whole house these are the problems they will face also. As you are doing stuff on your house be thinking about the best ways to run wires and how you may want that done.


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## Wuzzat? (Dec 23, 2013)

At this point I recommend taking a day and doing the tests in #18 to get an overall idea of the problems you're having.  
This info may influence the timing and extent of your repair/replace decision.

Just mapping the outlets may take you a day.  
In each room you can say, e.g., upper NE room, 1st. outlet on NW wall, 2nd, etc., 1st on SW wall, ceiling light, and then map each to the load center.

Frinstance, index to circuit breakers for a split bus panel

a/c, 27 & 29
basement lighting, 25
basement west wall outlet, 20
bathroom GFCIs, 22
bathrooms, upstairs, 24
breakfast area outlet, 18
cooktop, 12 & 14
cooktop light, 17
room, 24
dining room outlet, 18
dishwasher, 19
disposal, 19
Dryer, 4 & 6
family room, 25
fan, kitchen, exhaust, 17
foyer, 21
fridge, kitchen, 17
front porch, 21
furnace, 23
guest room, 22
kitchen, 25
kitchen ceiling light, 20
kitchen overhead fan, 20
living room west wall outlets, 20
master bedroom, 24
mudroom outlet, 18
outside outlet, 18
oven, 8 & 10
pond pump, 26?
porch, screened, 25?
room, 22
sump pump, 21
washing machine, 18
whole house, 3 & 5

Breaker number/amps

15A: 20 to 25
20A: 17 to 19, 26
30A: 4, 6,8,10, 29
40A: 7, 9, 11 to 14
50A : 3, 5
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Circuit Breakers

3,5 whole house except dryer, 
oven, stove, air conditioner
4,6 dryer
8,10 oven
12,14 cooktop
17 kitchen outlets, fridge
18 washing machine, 
dining room outlet, mudroom outlet, 
outside outlet, breakfast area
19 dishwasher,disposal
20 living room west wall, 
kitchen ceiling light, kitchen fan, 
basement west wall
21 sump pump, front porch, family room, 
foyer
22 upstairs room, guest room, 
bathroom GFCIs
23 furnace
24 master bedroom, 
both upstairs bathrooms
25 family room, back screened porch, 
kitchen, basement lighting
26 screened porch, pond pump, kitchen
27, 29 air conditioner

There's also a way to find the order of outlets on a branch circuit by using a 1 kw load (hair dryer, room heater, worklight) and a multimeter on the 200 mVac scale.  
It's tedious but it works.


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