# Breaking out power receptacles into own circuit breaker



## jvc714

Hi There,

Whoever that worked on my house prior to me moving in put 75% of the house on a single 20A circuit breaker.

I would like to break it up so I have have multiple 15/20A circuit breakers so it does not trip so much (especially in the summer and winter with the A/C or electric heaters).

The house does not have a basement/crawl space or attic/crawl space.  The outside of the house is siding and inside is textured drywall.  

The old owner dropped in a second circuit from the circuit breaker box under the soffit using an MC cable. I am not sure if this is permitted or not.

I would like to do something similar but want to do it right.  Should I run a conduit under the eve / soffit or will I be able to get away with running an MC cable?

Thanks in advance.


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## joecaption

Older home?
How many amp's is the main panel?
What size wire was ran?
Is there an attic?


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## bud16415

I would start out making a map of the whole house and all the outlets and light locations. Turn off one breaker at a time and see what is on the same breaker. Then I would pull all the outlets and see what ones are feeding another and what ones are the end of a line. I would then try and determine what outlets are feeding others and how the circuit is strung together by whatever method I could figure out, like just using logic as an example back to back outlets on two sides of a wall may feed each other or maybe they went around the room and a string. When that didn&#8217;t work I would then start opening circuits where one fed another and see what goes out. 

By this point you should have an idea of how many you want on a breaker and how you want to break it up. Then I would look for the easiest of those broken up circuits to get a new wire back to the panel. 

At that point hopefully the questions Joe asked will allow you to add some new breakers run some new wires (the correct size) to the most logical points in what you have now to minimize your time and cost and destruction to your home. 

If you think the house was mis-wired by the previous owner as to putting too much on a circuit most likely he made other mistakes and things not compliant with code and you should correct them at the same time. Like proper use of GFCI&#8217;s etc. 

Once you get your map corrected with the new wiring make sure to label everything in the panel and mark the inside of the outlet covers with the breaker that controls them and keep your drawing near the panel for a year from now when you forget what you did, or the next owner. 

That&#8217;s how I would do it I&#8217;m not a pro just a homeowner like you.


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## JoeD

When adding new circuit they should be designed so that one AC or one heater only is on a circuit.
Where is the panel? Is there an attic? Can you get cables from the panel up into the attic?


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## Snoonyb

From post #1;"The house does not have a basement/crawl space or attic/crawl space."

Are the ceilings 8' or cathedral? Because a ceiling joist system allows you some measure of versatility in accessing interior spaces by using the joist bays.


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## bud16415

The problem with space heaters and window AC units is trying to figure out what outlet someone might plug them into or what window. During the remod of our house we had a window unit in the one living room window for a summer the largest 120v you can buy. It did a great job of cooling the first floor and around here you don&#8217;t really need central air. So that being a good location I wired a dedicated outlet right below the window for it. Once the furniture went in she said I want the AC in the other window. I asked why and the dog got used to looking out that window over the winter. So you know who won on the AC location. 

If you use a lot of high draw appliances like that, the best you can do is cut back on the number of outlets and run more circuits.


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## jvc714

First I would like to thank everybody for responding. 

Basically, it is a older home.  there is no place to run cable above or below the house without having to gut the ceiling and drilling through all the 2x8 beams that support the roof.

I have already tried to coordinate who can use what at the same time but the way it is wired, it is impossible.

Basically, does anybody know if I am legally allowed to run an MC cable or I am required to run a PVC conduit under the eve / soffit outside to add additional circuit breakers to an break up an existing branch circuit?  I already found a place that I can safely tap (inside a closet).  

Thanks in advance.


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## nealtw

jvc714 said:


> First I would like to thank everybody for responding.
> 
> Basically, it is a older home.  there is no place to run cable above or below the house without having to gut the ceiling and drilling through all the 2x8 beams that support the roof.
> 
> I have already tried to coordinate who can use what at the same time but the way it is wired, it is impossible.
> 
> Basically, does anybody know if I am legally allowed to run an MC cable or I am required to run a PVC conduit under the eve / soffit outside to add additional circuit breakers to an break up an existing branch circuit?  I already found a place that I can safely tap (inside a closet).
> 
> Thanks in advance.


That might be a code question for your area, but I think the bigger question is how many amps in the service you have, do you have spare spaces for breakers and are the breakers available.
You mentioned that some one put in 20 amp breakers, are the wires 12 gauge going to those breakers. In the breaker box the difference in wire size between 20 amp and 15 amp should be visible.
http://electrical.about.com/od/panelsdistribution/f/calculateload.htm


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## Snoonyb

So, where are you, because the code in 2013, may not be the code today?

Is your ceiling open beam, because how many circuits are accessible from one closet?


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## JoeD

MC cable is not considered waterproof. I don't think it is permitted outside.
Can you remove the eaves and run the cable inside them? That might also allow you access into the walls to drop cable down into the outside walls and into the ceiling space to run cable in the space between the rafters. This should minimize the holes that need to be drilled.


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## afjes_2016

jvc714 said:


> ...
> Basically, does anybody know if I am legally allowed to run an MC cable or I am required to run a PVC conduit _under the eve / soffit outside_ to add additional circuit breakers...



Again, you are best off finding out from your AHJ (authority having jurisdiction; local code office). What may be to code in the NEC may not be to the local office.

Also, _if you end up using PVC or some other type of conduit_ anywhere outside be aware (in case you don't know) that you can not run Romex within the conduit if the conduit will be outside. You must use individual conductors which are rated for wet locations. Romex is only rated for dry locations (THHN), you must use wire/conductor that is rated also for THWN (W=weather).


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## JoeD

You do not have to run individual conductors. You do have to run WET(not weather) rated wires or cable. There is wet rated cable.


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## bud16415

I haven&#8217;t wired as many house as some of you guys or rewired, but I have never seen one that there wasn&#8217;t a way to fish some wires without doing that much repair staying inside the house. Not saying there might be a time when you have to run a wire around outside in conduit and back in but I would rather repair a few holes in the drywall before I did that. I find there is usually a place to use as a chase.


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## afjes_2016

JoeD said:


> You do not have to run individual conductors. You do have to run WET(not weather) rated wires or cable. There is wet rated cable.



Apparently I was having a bad day when I replied here. :hide: Yes, "W" stands for wet and not weather which is what I wrote earlier in the sentence; my bad. Also, I meant that the individual conductors have to be rated as THWN where as Romex is not; yes, wet rated cable is allowed but a pain to run in conduit and to strip. My statement was misleading; sorry. Your correction is noted.


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## jvc714

Nealtw: As far as load, I added everything together that I would be using and it does not come anywhere near 80% of 100A.  The house has two 50 amp breakers that are tied together.  I believe this assumes that I have 100A in the box available.  The box has plenty of un-used circuit breakers as the house runs on 4 curcuit breakers while the the box can hold 10.

Snoonyb: Everything inside is closed up and textured except for the closets.

JoeD: The eves outside are not covered.  The good news is that if I end up running the conduit to the closet, I would just have to run it down the wall as it is an outside wall and hook it up to the power outlet there.  I already looked at the power outlet and if I disconnect it, everything downstream also loses power.  I think I can just reconnect everything downstream with the new curcuit and just cap the current one.  This would put everything downstream on a different circuit breaker.  I also read that I need to run THHN inside the conduit too.

bud16415: I agree with you.  At this point, I don't think I have much of a choice because I don't want to rip open the ceiling or walls as much as possible because every time I do anything to this house, I always find something wrong with the previous work and I end up spend a lot more time and money on fixing the mickey mouse work than I originally anticipated.  As a result, I am trying to avoid touching anything if at all possible.  As far as the aesthetics with the conduit outside, I am not terribly concerned as the old owner already ran MC cable under the eve.  This would just add to it or I can replace the current MC cable with my conduit.

Basically, I am located in the unincorporated areas of Los Angeles county in California.  Based on the way the old owner worked on this house, I really just want to make it safe and convenient for my family and I am not prepared to upgrade everything electric to the current code as this may end up costing me over $10k+ let alone losing space in the house from use until I am done which can be a while.  I don't mind running a PVC conduit if that's the right thing to do if it is safe.  If I am not remembering wrong is that if anything gets altered, I need to bring it up to code.  If the county ever comes and inspects it, they will flag everything the old owner did and I will end up having it brought up to code in the time frame and expense I am not prepared for.  I will eventually bring everything up to the current code but not this year or next year.

Based on all the feedback that everybody gave me, I think I will run the PVC conduit outside.  It seems to be the easiest and safest for my family.

I will keep everybody posted on it.

Thanks again.


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## Snoonyb

Could you please post a photo of the service, because you may have one of the few remaining _*A Base services*_.

Having two 50A breakers tied together means you have a 50Amp main, not 100Amp.

In other words you have 50A available on each buss bar.


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## jvc714

Snoonyb said:


> Could you please post a photo of the service, because you may have one of the few remaining _*A Base services*_.
> 
> Having two 50A breakers tied together means you have a 50Amp main, not 100Amp.
> 
> In other words you have 50A available on each buss bar.




Snooyb:  I made a mistake when I originally typed it.  I mean to say I have two 100A breakers tied together. I have attached a photo with the cover off.

As you can see, there are are 8 usable breakers (main takes up 2).  There is a space on the bottom for 2 more.

Only 5 of the 8 usable are turned on.  The other 3 either does not connect to anything or it does not correspond to anything on the property.  I would like to use the remainder to break up the load that is put on breaker 4th down on the left side.  Eventually, I would like to break up the load for first one on the left side as it is shared between the bathroom and kitchen.


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## Snoonyb

Thanks for the clarification.

Could you step back a few feet and post another photo showing the meter and the whole service, with the cover still off, as well as a bit of the surrounding wall and the service mast.

Also, I see 9 breakers occupying 8 breaker spots, the top left is two breakers, and it appears there are both 12/3 and 14/3 circuits feed from the breakers, as well as a couple individual circuits.


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## nealtw

I have seen base molding removed and enough drywall removed to set conduit next to studs with 1x2 placed above and below the conduit to space out the molding.


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## slownsteady

nealtw said:


> I have seen base molding removed and enough drywall removed to set conduit next to studs with 1x2 placed above and below the conduit to space out the molding.


So make a chase out of your baseboard? Clever.


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## nealtw

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvWZQ9y6UKk[/ame]


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## kok328

I see a 100amp panel with 9 breakers, 4 turned off and 1 not wired to anything.
All other breakers go somewhere.
This might be a replacement panel for the old 4 hole glass fuss panels, that would explain alot.


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## Snoonyb

It's the reason I've asked for a panoramic view.

I recognize the panel as if I were standing in his yard, instead of south OC. It's been so long since I've done this style of change over, I've forgotten the panel name.

Time flies, when you're having fun.


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## jvc714

Snoonyb: I have attached a photo of the whole panel.  When I took this photo I forgot you requested it with it open exposing the wires.  I will take the photo again tomorrow during the daytime.

NealTW: I think that is a great idea.  Unfortunately, my base board is too small to run a chase through it and I don't have crown molding.  Thanks for the suggestion though.


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## Snoonyb

Thanks;
That's actually a relief. I had built a mental picture of something far more complicated.

Could you include the weather-head, where the overhead connection from the pole and a close-up of the service with the dead front panel removed, like before.

Thanks again.


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## JoeD

The baseboard can be changed to a wider version.


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## slownsteady

:agree: Changing the baseboard is a lot easier than some of the other methods suggested.


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## jvc714

Here is the picture with the picture with the cover open.  I will take a picture of the weather head tomorrow in the daytime.  I'm not sure how I am going to be able to get it into one picture.  Basically, the pole goes up through the roof and the weather head is on the top.

As far as making the baseboard into a chase, I really want to do it but it is not an option right now for several personal reasons.


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## Snoonyb

Thanks again, every little bit helps.


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## nealtw

As you already have conduit on the outside I would go ahead and do the same, I would run 12 wire for 20 amps and for one more wire you can run one to the kitchen  too. I would leave all the old outlets alone and just run new.
In the kitchen I would enter in the back of a cupboard to a junction box so you could run a couple outlets from there starting with a gfci.
Just put some of those child proof caps in the outlets you don't want to use any more.


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## jvc714

Snoonyb: I have attached the pictures you asked for.

Nealtw: Is there a reason why you suggest leaving the old outlets alone and running new?  In regards to the conduit you are referencing, it is an MC cable.  I have attached a picture of it.  I am thinking of ripping it out and just run an extra wire for the one I am already running as it is going to a similar location in the house.


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## nealtw

I will leave suggestions on products to those with more knowledge  than me.
The old boxes in the house will likely be small and and you will have to cap the old wires and then add another set. If you go with 12 g, they are pretty stiff.
Depending on what exactly you want to do it might be better to break into a system but if you find 14 g wire there you would have to go back to 15 amps.


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## Snoonyb

Thanks again.

Where does the liquidtite that comes out of the bottom of the service go, and is the armored cable to it's left clamped to a driven ground bonded to cold water?


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## jvc714

Merry Christmas everybody.

Snoonyb: The liquidtite one goes to a underground conduit that leads to my laundry room.  The other (smaller one) is tied to the grounding rod.

Newltw: I can go either 12 gauge or 14 gauge as I will run two sets to replace the single 12 gauge.


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## Snoonyb

Thanks again.

Liquidtite has a trace copper grnd. strap that can be tied under the connector nuts to the EMT and service can and is considered bonded.

I'm assuming that the MC you have referred to is that from the single gang exterior box to the left of the service mast just under the eaves.

The side knockout should accommodate a larger EMT, or PVC, affording you the ability to, with a larger box, several circuits.

By the way, because you have several 15A breakers "OFF", which were probably light circuits, are you intending to identify them?


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## jvc714

Snoonyb: Yes, the MC I was referring to is the one in the picture above just under the eaves.  

I do plan on running additional circuits through the existing knockout.  If it's not enough, I will run a bigger PVC to it.  My original question was if the original work with the MC cable is considered as "legal."  If it is considered legal, I can just run another one right next to it because it is flexible and follows the contours of the roof eaves.  On a related note, I noticed that the ground / neutral bar is pretty full.  Is there a possbility I can add another one on the other side?

Thanks in advance.


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## nealtw

Have you thought about building a box around the meter extended up to the soffet area and putting in vinyl soffet. Wiring would be a lot easier.


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## Snoonyb

jvc714 said:


> Snoonyb: Yes, the MC I was referring to is the one in the picture above just under the eaves.



Thanks. I asked for the photos because I wanted to see if the MC was exposed or disappeared into a soffit, and because it is exposed it needs to be replaced, for the reasons already stated.  



jvc714 said:


> I do plan on running additional circuits through the existing knockout.  If it's not enough, I will run a bigger PVC to it.



Because you can replace the pull elbow at the service with and "L" or "T" to facilitate running both light and plug circuits under the eaves and/or around the base of the wall.



jvc714 said:


> On a related note, I noticed that the ground / neutral bar is pretty full.  Is there a possbility I can add another one on the other side?



You do not need to individualize the conductors in your existing buss bar, which should afford you sufficient space.

Are you going to take the opportunity, in this venture, to update or at least "J" box sufficient circuits for an eventual kitchen remodel.


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## jvc714

Snoonyb: Yes, I do plan on updating the "J" box for future expansion.  The kitchen / bathroom really does need additional circuits but I may wait until I remodel the bathroom as the kitchen was remodeled 4 years ago by the old owner.

Thanks very much for taking the time to answer all my questions.


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## Snoonyb

Any time.

That may be where some of the unidentified circuits are terminated.


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## WyrTwister

bud16415 said:


> I would start out making a map of the whole house and all the outlets and light locations. Turn off one breaker at a time and see what is on the same breaker. Then I would pull all the outlets and see what ones are feeding another and what ones are the end of a line. I would then try and determine what outlets are feeding others and how the circuit is strung together by whatever method I could figure out, like just using logic as an example back to back outlets on two sides of a wall may feed each other or maybe they went around the room and a string. When that didnt work I would then start opening circuits where one fed another and see what goes out.
> 
> By this point you should have an idea of how many you want on a breaker and how you want to break it up. Then I would look for the easiest of those broken up circuits to get a new wire back to the panel.
> 
> At that point hopefully the questions Joe asked will allow you to add some new breakers run some new wires (the correct size) to the most logical points in what you have now to minimize your time and cost and destruction to your home.
> 
> If you think the house was mis-wired by the previous owner as to putting too much on a circuit most likely he made other mistakes and things not compliant with code and you should correct them at the same time. Like proper use of GFCIs etc.
> 
> Once you get your map corrected with the new wiring make sure to label everything in the panel and mark the inside of the outlet covers with the breaker that controls them and keep your drawing near the panel for a year from now when you forget what you did, or the next owner.
> 
> Thats how I would do it Im not a pro just a homeowner like you.


    Very good answer !      Very much the way I would do it .

     I have held a journeyman's license for over 35 years & now semi-retired .  But never did a whole lot of residential .  Mostly commercial .

     If no attic & no under floor crawl space ,  this represents a challenge to do it well without making it look bad or tearing stuff up .

     If you know what crown molding is , set at a 45 degree angle at the junction of the top of the pall & the ceiling , will provide a passage for some cable .  ( around here , Romex is used for house wiring . )

     Another thing you need to do is see how many new circuit breakers can be safely added to your existing panel / loadcenter .

     If you are OK with cutting & replacing ( and painting ) , then it gives you more options .

God bless
Wyr


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