# Install Recirculation Pump



## sdupp (Feb 29, 2012)

I am not much of a plumber but I have installed a few faucets in my day. I would like to install a Metlund S-50 Series Hot Water Recirculation Pump in my master bedroom. I hesitate to attempt this job because the connections under my sink are PEX tubing and the values are FlowTite values (Push On) Below I will include links to the type of values I have and one to the recirculation pump.  Any recommendations would be much appreciated. 


http://www.accortechnology.com/flowtite.html

http://www.gothotwater.com/d-mand-products/sts-50t-series


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## Speedbump (Feb 29, 2012)

I'm not a Plumber either, but I don't think you want to install a circulating pump under your sink.


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## nealtw (Feb 29, 2012)

These things keep the water heater working and add much to the heat bill.


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## sdupp (Feb 29, 2012)

Speedbump said:


> I'm not a Plumber either, but I don't think you want to install a circulating pump under your sink.



As you stand around waiting for hot water to arrive at your bathroom  sinkor, worse, wander off to do something else while the tap is  runningwatch what's flowing down the drain: not just water, but all the  energy that went into heating it.


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## sdupp (Feb 29, 2012)

nealtw said:


> These things keep the water heater working and add much to the heat bill.



 This setup saves water. Less intuitively, it also saves energy. That's  because the water going back to the heater is usually slightly warm, so  reheating it takes less energy. And the pump moves water faster than a  typical faucet can, which means less heat loss in the pipesand less  waiting time for you.


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## paul52446m (Feb 29, 2012)

sdupp said:


> This setup saves water. Less intuitively, it also saves energy. That's  because the water going back to the heater is usually slightly warm, so  reheating it takes less energy. And the pump moves water faster than a  typical faucet can, which means less heat loss in the pipesand less  waiting time for you.



You are right it will not waste energy. You are already wasting energy waiting to get hot water there and when you are done all that water in the line gets cold again. After you install the pump i would insulate all the hot lines to save more
 energy.  Paul


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## Speedbump (Mar 1, 2012)

If your going to install a pump it needs to be in the main hot water line after the heater.  It will then be fed to the furthest point where your having to wait for the hot water.  Just before that last faucet, you tee into the (probably) 3/4" line and loop back with 1/2" to the bottom of the heater.  These pipes will have to be insulated or you will be heating your home with the water heater.


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## sdupp (Mar 1, 2012)

The only place in my house I have to wait a long time for hot water is my bedroom; therefor this is where I intend to install the recirculation pump. My neighbor has one he put on top of the hot water heater with a timer and also he installed a loop under his bedroom sink. I want hot water when I want it, don&#8217;t care for timers. The one I&#8217;m using serves the same purpose but allows me to install an on button, motion sensor on or remote control. 
Back to my original question, does anyone know how to remove these values? >> http://www.accortechnology.com/flowtite.html


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## nealtw (Mar 1, 2012)

You might be better off to make your connection in the wall as these valves don't like being removed.


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## isola96 (Mar 3, 2012)

A circulator won't help your problem, maybe a check valve....  Need more information on your setup.


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## inspectorD (Mar 3, 2012)

Since nobody else will, I will answer your actual question.

1. Shut off your house water at the mainline.

2. Disconnect the nut end of the connector first. This is the chrome nut that attaches to the faucet. It should only be hand tight, but some installers will wrench them on. A 6 or 8 inch adjustable wrench will work fine. For the toilet it's the large white plastic nut connected to the toilet tank.

3. Rotate the valve on the pipe counter-clockwise with a slight pull while turning. 

4. After about 6 or 8 twists, the valve should turn itself completely off of the pipe.

5. When the valve is removed, you'll see about a half inch of the pipe tip will have these spiral scars. They look almost like a fine pipe thread. They're not. They're caused by the gripping teeth inside the valve when the valve is rotated. 
This is the important part. When you go to re-install your valves (they are re-usable if there is no damage to the O-ring inside), cut-away the scarred portion of the pipe. If you can't, then just smooth the pipe surface with emery cloth or a fine sand paper before re-installing your valve.

6. Push the valve back onto the pipe with a slight turn of the wrist a full 1 and one-quarter inches. It works well to measure and mark the pipe. Try and avoid "screwing" the valve onto the pipe. Just push it on with a slight turn of the wrist to the 1-1/4" mark.

And good luck with your circulator pump, I'm sure you will be back to ask more later.


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## sdupp (Mar 3, 2012)

Thanks inspector D finely someone with information I can use. I also read somewhere that if the method you described doesn&#8217;t work; I can use a Dremel to cut them in half and pry them apart. I have decided to remove the values and add some compression fittings. I&#8217;m going to need a tee and a new shutoff value so I can hookup the Recirculation pump.  I wish I had copper but everything PEX & plastic values. Lowe's has a bunch of fitting for PEX piping, so I will figure it all out once I remove the Values. Going to put in an outlet under the sink first, got a have juice. 
Thanks for your Help!


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## Speedbump (Mar 5, 2012)

Good luck on this one!


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## isola96 (Mar 5, 2012)

I think speedbumb was right. if you install a circulator it needs to be on the main line or will have no affect. Check your accustat and your pressure on water heater.


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## sdupp (Mar 5, 2012)

isola96 said:


> I think speedbumb was right. if you install a circulator it needs to be on the main line or will have no affect. Check your accustat and your pressure on water heater.



 I think if you and speedbumb would read the link below from This Old House. You would have a better understanding of how this system saves money and water.  It takes two/ three minutes for hot water to reach my bathroom. I have no idea how many gallons of water just going down the drain, wasted. My bathroom is the furthest from the hot water heater. 


http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,1558520-2,00.html


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## paul52446m (Mar 5, 2012)

sdupp said:


> I think if you and speedbumb would read the link below from This Old House. You would have a better understanding of how this system saves money and water.  It takes two/ three minutes for hot water to reach my bathroom. I have no idea how many gallons of water just going down the drain, wasted. My bathroom is the furthest from the hot water heater.
> 
> 
> http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,1558520-2,00.html


Sdupp you are right. i have installed many circulating pump on both commercial
 and house hold. If you install under the sink and a 1/2 return back to bottom 
 of heater through a check valve Then the hot water will flow from the heater, to under the sink and back to the heater. If there is any water appliances beyond this point , then they will get hot water faster also.
 Like i said before, insulate all the lines so you save energy. 
 I don't know anything about theses valves you have. But your pump should work fine. It might help if you was to show a water line diagram.  Paul


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## Speedbump (Mar 6, 2012)

It sounds foolish to install a pump under a sink when you could easily install it at the heater instead.  Unless you like crawling around under a cabinet letting your Plumbers Crack hang out.  Either way, you still have to install the return line.


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## sdupp (Mar 6, 2012)

The return line is the cold line.


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## Speedbump (Mar 6, 2012)

I'm not going to pretend to understand what these guys are trying to pull, but if your sending hot water backwards through the cold water line, aren't other cold water faucets going to be letting out hot or warm water instead of cold?  Honestly, that's the dumbest thing I have ever seen.  And talk about wasting hot water.  Did they mention insulation?

Another thing.  Any engineer or inventer who calls a Water Heater a "HOT" Water Heater, can't be thinking too clearly.


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## isola96 (Mar 6, 2012)

Speedbump said:
			
		

> I'm not going to pretend to understand what these guys are trying to pull, but if your sending hot water backwards through the cold water line, aren't other cold water faucets going to be letting out hot or warm water instead of cold?



your right  speedbump need a demestic return line for the hot water line to make the circulator to work properly doesn't work the other way.
The device the op is installing is making the fauset lines its self the loop but to each there own.


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## nealtw (Mar 6, 2012)

It needs a return line to the cold intake of the tank with a check valve above it so hot water won't go into the cold for the rest of the house the new line has to be insulated as well as the old line where ever it goes in the house. Most people don't insulate the original hot water thru the house and all estimate of cost to operate go out the window, or into the walls.


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## sdupp (Mar 6, 2012)

I give up.................  There is a sensor in the pump that senses hot water, then closes the value and turns off the pump. All it did was pump the cold water laying in the hot water line into the cold water line. So therefore NO Hot water was pumped into the cold water line.... 

*When the hot water reaches the
D'MAND System, a thermal sensor (thermistor) senses a temperature rise and quickly closes
the zone valve while it shuts the pump off. The sophisticated electronic circuitry that does
this is attached to the high-performance pump housing.*


*The Metlund D'MAND System can utilize the cold water line as a return line or use a
dedicated return line. By using the existing cold water line, it is easy to retrofit existing
homes or businesses. Special plumbing is not needed, and since the System will not allow for
hot water to cross over to the cold water line, all the cold water fixtures still have cold water.*


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## nealtw (Mar 6, 2012)

I havn't seen that kind of system so you will tell us how it works for you.


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## Speedbump (Mar 7, 2012)

Yup, me too.  I would like to hear back once you get it installed and hear how it went.


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## paul52446m (Mar 7, 2012)

sdupp said:


> I give up.................  There is a sensor in the pump that senses hot water, then closes the value and turns off the pump. All it did was pump the cold water laying in the hot water line into the cold water line. So therefore NO Hot water was pumped into the cold water line....
> 
> *When the hot water reaches the
> D'MAND System, a thermal sensor (thermistor) senses a temperature rise and quickly closes
> ...


 I guess my question would be the time factor not the energy  savings. If before you had to run i gal. of water down the drain to get hot water, and maybe this took 1 min. Is this pump big enough to pump water fast enough to cut the time factor by 80%?  
 Now if some one else in the house was using any cold water, the water you are trying to pump back to the heater is going to the person using the cold water, because of the pressure from the supply? 
 I think for that kind of money i would rather install a recirculating pump, insulate my water lines and then i would have hot water every where real
 fast.
 If you had a basement i would make it a gravity flow system which needs no pump. I have installed several systems like that.  Paul


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## Speedbump (Mar 8, 2012)

> If you had a basement i would make it a gravity flow system which needs no pump. I have installed several systems like that. Paul



I fully agree with Paul, I did the same thing in Fenton, Michigan years ago for my own house.  Worked great (as long as you insulate the pipes) and hot water was instant at every faucet.


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## sdupp (Mar 13, 2012)

The job is complete and the recirculation pump works as advertised. I get up in the morning and press the button and before I can finish taking a leak I have hot water at the faucet. It&#8217;s a whole lot faster & no more water going down the drain. It may take a few years for it to pay for itself, but I think it&#8217;s worth it. *I highly recommend it. *  :banana:


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## inspectorD (Mar 13, 2012)

Nice hot showers...what will they think of next!!
::::


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