# Roof is leaking and not sure why or where



## pokerduder (Jan 18, 2015)

Hello,

I've uploaded a YT video to help me explain the issue I'm having... [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEXPUotjcDs[/ame]

So I got up this morning and noticed water on my window screen. The odd part though is that the window is located under a porch roof. I have no idea where the water is coming from. 

The roof is only 9 years old. We did have our windows replaced about a week ago. I don't think that's the issue though since our roof overhangs. But maybe?

This may have been going on for years are we just never noticed it. With the new windows installed, we were able to see water on the screen and investigate.

Any help or theories would be appreciated.

Thanks a bunch,
lee


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 18, 2015)

First off  to House Repair Talk!

Now, how old is the roof? Has this ever happened before? What type of roofing material is on the roof, shingle, roll roofing? Has anything changed recently on the roof or wall? Are you noticing any moisture in the ceiling below (inside) or the second story (interior) wall?

I know, a lot of questions....


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## pokerduder (Jan 18, 2015)

The roof is 9 years old with 30-year shingles.

This is the first time we've noticed the leak, but we're unsure how long it has been happening. The only thing that has changed is the we had new windows put in. 

We don't see any moisture inside the house.

Thanks,
Lee


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## havasu (Jan 18, 2015)

I don't think this has anything to do with your new windows. You obviously have moisture penetration somewhere on the roof, probably where your overhang meets the house. That is where I would concentrate your efforts.


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## bud16415 (Jan 18, 2015)

Did they use the porch roof to work from doing the windows? Is the porch roof shingles also? Looks like there is a ridge of snow on the porch roof at the overhang line. Are you having the same Jan thaw we are having? I&#8217;m thinking an ice dam and a couple paths for the backed up water to follow.


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 18, 2015)

How much slope is there from the wall to the gutter? Is it a 30 year dimensional or 3 tab shingle?


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## pokerduder (Jan 18, 2015)

Yup, they stepped on the roof to install the windows.

I just remembered, we also had new gutters installed over the summer. Is there any chance we could have water running off the top of the roof, slipping into the underside of the roof, running down to the exterior of the house and dripping down there?

Not sure how much slope there is to the roof. They are dimensional shingles.

I don't think there's enough snow on the roof to create an ice dam scenario. There's only a couple of inches. But here's a pic...







thanks,
lee


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 18, 2015)

Couple things, exposed nails at the top course of shingle. There should be head wall flashing extending over the nails that tucks up, 3" under the siding.  That is to low a slope for shingles, especially dimensional, because of the uneven surface. A pitch of between 2-4/12 can be shingled with a layer of Ice and Water shield underneath. Also, check and see how much over hang you have on the shingles over the gutter. Ideally, there should be drip edge and 1/2" of shingles hanging over the gutter.

It's probably the exposed nail heads. Melting water is probably getting in around them. A temporary fix is to caulk the nail heads with a rubber based caulk. Do this when the shingles are dry.


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## havasu (Jan 18, 2015)

Whether these are where the leaks originated or not, you need to smother the areas with some Henry's # 208 wet roof repair or similar.


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## inspectorD (Jan 18, 2015)

I have another question... are these new windows full replacements that are installed in the old frames, or was actual siding was removed to install these windows.


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## pokerduder (Jan 18, 2015)

No siding was removed. They just replaced the old windows. I don't think it's the windows. The reason we never noticed the problem before is because our old windows didn't have screens. So the water dripping down wasn't noticed.

I'm going to contact the roofing company tomorrow. I supposedly have a 15 year workmanship warranty. What would you suggest I ask them? Or how should I approach the phone call?

Thanks,
Lee


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## nealtw (Jan 18, 2015)

The roof is questionable but this could also be leaky window above the roof or even ice dam on the main roof.
If you havew vinyl soffet under the porch, that could be removed fairly easy for inspection.


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 19, 2015)

If it was rain, I would be more inclined to suspect the windows. Since we see snow load, I'm more inclined to look at ice damming. 

Any caulk applied to the exterior of the shingle will only be a temporary repair until proper flashing is installed.

Another thing to look for is evidence of nail holes if the window installer put toe boards to secure a work platform for the window installation. More than once I've seen toe boards nailed through the roof, the board pulled and a hole left that leaks.


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

A proper window installation would have found any problems that were already there, but the installer wouldn't have made that quick money.


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 19, 2015)

nealtw said:


> A proper window installation would have found any problems that were already there, but the installer wouldn't have made that quick money.



You wouldn't believe how many calls we get for leaks that turn out to be windows and door that are the source of the water intrusion.


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

oldognewtrick said:


> You wouldn't believe how many calls we get for leaks that turn out to be windows and door that are the source of the water intrusion.



There is a lot going on here, I would bet the origanal roof had a flashing so this roof is nail on top of it and in certain coditions you could get an ice dam on that roof, the roof above, is low slope could be having ice dam issues. I don't see a gutter on the upper roof. If there is a hidden gutter that could be leaking or if the water just runs over the edge onto a roof full of snow could cause problem. Might be an old leak in the window area or just a poor installation of the new window or new holes in the roof that you pointed to with toe boards.


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## inspectorD (Jan 19, 2015)

How about a picture of the insulation in this area of the attic. I'm puttin my money on ice damming. The porch bottom rows will never ice dam.. theres no heat underneath it. And with new windows, you could have a better heat path to the ceiling. Where as before the windows leaked the warm air, and the ice dams acted more slowly..
The waster is coming from behind the siding, way up... I don't think this is a porch roof issue. Dont let them sell you something you don't need.


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

inspectorD said:


> How about a picture of the insulation in this area of the attic. I'm puttin my money on ice damming. The porch bottom rows will never ice dam.. theres no heat underneath it. And with new windows, you could have a better heat path to the ceiling. Where as before the windows leaked the warm air, and the ice dams acted more slowly..
> The waster is coming from behind the siding, way up... I don't think this is a porch roof issue. Dont let them sell you something you don't need.



I redo what I was thinking, A pile of snow on the lower roof and a good waterflow off the upper roof, so slush dam on lower roof.


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## pokerduder (Jan 19, 2015)

As far as ice dams... there's hardly any snow on the roof. Also, I know that when the roof was put on, they used an ice & water barrier 6 feet from all bottom edges. I'm not saying it isn't possible. But the snow you see in the pic above was only an inch or two.

There is no gutter on the top roof.

I really appreciate everyone's input and help on this. Thank you


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

You said that the water on the screen got your attention but you showed water on the deck and the siding, you never noticed that before?


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## pokerduder (Jan 19, 2015)

nealtw said:


> You said that the water on the screen got your attention but you showed water on the deck and the siding, you never noticed that before?



No, because our old windows didn't have screens. With the new windows, the window/screen sticks out enough to catch some of the dripping water. That's what clued us in.


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

You don't have a bathroom above this area?


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## pokerduder (Jan 19, 2015)

nealtw said:


> You don't have a bathroom above this area?



No. Both rooms above the porch are bedrooms.


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

pokerduder said:


> No. Both rooms above the porch are bedrooms.



So the window guy just changed the windows and covered the old trim with metal?


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## pokerduder (Jan 19, 2015)

nealtw said:


> So the window guy just changed the windows and covered the old trim with metal?



I believe so.


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

So you still have a few possibilities. Usually we get a call from a friend of a friend after the window guy has been there a few times to re-caulk everything and  says it isn't his problem.
Sometimes it is just his installation, but more often it is something more where the old window leaked for years or other problems start to show up just because things have changed a bit.
He, most times has done everything in his contract. What the contract never says is, we will remove everything down to framing and inspect for water damage and wait while other problems are fixed.

If I was called out to your house, I would inspect the roof for new nail holes that Oldog mentioned but with a low slope thats not likely. After that I look for the cheapest to fix distructive inspection I can do. That would be drywall around the windows above. I would be looking for rot and where it starts or if there is new water there( wet but no rot) I would also keep in mind that you have a very low slope roof and no visable venting in the soffet so this could be a very old ice dam problem and still what ever the problem might not show up inside the sheeting.


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 19, 2015)

When it warms up a bit, get the hose out and start leak testing, starting from the bottom up till you make it leak. We do this a lot.


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## inspectorD (Jan 19, 2015)

I still would like the pic of the attic. The only roof picture we have seen here is of the porch roof , which would leak to the outside of the porch and have nothing to do with ice dammimg. The upper roof however will leak all the way down to the ground behind the porch roof flashing if it was not installed correctly...I have no idea what the upper roof looks like from the video. The picture you took of the snow, is the porch roof from a window.
 We need to see the insulation, and underneath roof deck plywood to rule that out. This is why I ask. 

Another question, is this water from melting snow, or from a recent rainstorm?


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## pokerduder (Jan 19, 2015)

nealtw said:


> If I was called out to your house, I would inspect the roof for new nail holes that Oldog mentioned



I looked myself and didn't see any holes.


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## pokerduder (Jan 19, 2015)

inspectorD said:


> I still would like the pic of the attic.
> 
> Another question, is this water from melting snow, or from a recent rainstorm?



The attic is basically a crawl space and it has been insulated and sealed off. So I won't be going in there unless I absolutely have to.

It rained yesterday and we had melting snow. It is about 32 today and there's a little bit of water but not much.


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

pokerduder said:


> I looked myself and didn't see any holes.



Do have access to the attic?


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## pokerduder (Jan 19, 2015)

nealtw said:


> Do have access to the attic?



The attic is basically a crawl space and it has been insulated and sealed off. So I won't be going in there unless I absolutely have to. It's a nightmare going up there.


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

pokerduder said:


> No siding was removed. They just replaced the old
> 
> I'm going to contact the roofing company tomorrow. I supposedly have a 15 year workmanship warranty. What would you suggest I ask them? Or how should I approach the phone call?
> 
> ...



Where is the flashing?


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

Did they take away all your old windows, were they wood  and why did you change them?


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## pokerduder (Jan 19, 2015)

nealtw said:


> Where is the flashing?



I looked and thought I could see a glimpse of the flashing under the shingles. Is this OK to do?


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## pokerduder (Jan 19, 2015)

nealtw said:


> Did they take away all your old windows, were they wood  and why did you change them?



The windows were original to the home (wood). So they were 40 years old. We replaced them with vinyl. They took them all away.


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 19, 2015)

pokerduder said:


> I looked and thought I could see a glimpse of the flashing under the shingles. Is this OK to do?




No, flashing in a head wall goes over the shingles. Ask them what the roof pitch is. A pitch less than 2 should not have shingles.


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## pokerduder (Jan 19, 2015)

oldognewtrick said:


> No, flashing in a head wall goes over the shingles. Ask them what the roof pitch is. A pitch less than 2 should not have shingles.



When you say "less than 2", do you mean degrees? If I had to guess, it is somewhere between 5 and 10 degrees.


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 19, 2015)

No, roof pitch is measured by how many inches of fall you have in a 12"horizontal run. If you take a 2' level and hold it flat, measure down from the end away from the shingles and it measures 4", you would have a 2/12 roof pitch. If it measured 24" inches you would have a 12/12 pitch.


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## pokerduder (Jan 19, 2015)

oldognewtrick said:


> No, flashing in a head wall goes over the shingles.



I just re-looked and I think what they did was shingle over the headwall flashing for aesthetics. So in other words, they laid down the shingles, put the flashing over it like they were supposed to, and then put a row of shingles over the metal.


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

The slope may look worse than it is because the upper floor extends at least 2 ft  over the Porch.
Lee: can you take a picture of the slope looking at the end of that roof? while standing on  the ground.


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 19, 2015)

pokerduder said:


> I just re-looked and I think what they did was shingle over the headwall flashing for aesthetics. So in other words, they laid down the shingles, put the flashing over it like they were supposed to, and then put a row of shingles over the metal.



This is incorrect thing to do because you punch holes in the material that is suppose to keep you dry. It should be nailed in the wall and covered by the siding, not nailed through the roof shingles.


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## pokerduder (Jan 19, 2015)

nealtw said:


> The slope may look worse than it is because the upper floor extends at least 2 ft  over the Porch.
> Lee: can you take a picture of the slope looking at the end of that roof? while standing on  the ground.



I did one better. I measured 8 inches down on a 2 foot level.


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

pokerduder said:


> I did one better. I measured 8 inches down on a 2 foot level.



If you did that right that it would be 4/12 pitch.
Put a level on the underside of the ceiling in the porch, does it slope toward the house?


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## pokerduder (Jan 19, 2015)

nealtw said:


> If you did that right that it would be 4/12 pitch.
> Put a level on the underside of the ceiling in the porch, does it slope toward the house?


Where the majority of the leaking is happening, yes. Slightly. But it does seem to be pitched towards the house. 

As I move towards the front door, it seems to get better until it starts to slope away.


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

pokerduder said:


> I did one better. I measured 8 inches down on a 2 foot level.



If you did that right that it would be 4/12 pitch.
Put a level on the underside of the ceiling in the porch, does it slope toward the house?

Water can get to strange places but the nails that Oldog is looking at are below the wall and I would think water would more likely show up on the outboard end and would expect that water to show up at the outside beam unless the ceiling is sloped. I think it is more likely coming down the wall, from window or roof above.

When the roof was replaced did they do some ice sheild?
I still think removing drywall will tell the story from there you could cut a hole in the sheeting and inspect the inside of the lower roof and prove or dis-prove window or upper roof leaks.


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## pokerduder (Jan 19, 2015)

nealtw said:


> When the roof was replaced did they do some ice sheild?


Yes. They installed a water/ice barrier 6 feet up along the bottom edges.


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

pokerduder said:


> Where the majority of the leaking is happening, yes. Slightly. But it does seem to be pitched towards the house.
> 
> As I move towards the front door, it seems to get better until it starts to slope away.



So that blows a hole in my last post. Is that wood ceiling in the porch?


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## pokerduder (Jan 19, 2015)

nealtw said:


> So that blows a hole in my last post. Is that wood ceiling in the porch?



Not sure. I've never had it opened. If I wanted to take off the under-siding on the porch, would I just flex it until it pops out?


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

pokerduder said:


> Not sure. I've never had it opened. If I wanted to take off the under-siding on the porch, would I just flex it until it pops out?



If it's vinyl yes you should be able to move something enough to find screws or nails to remove, then you take them down in order. For some reason I have never taken down aluminum so don't know but it wouldn't be that easy I think.


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 19, 2015)

nealtw said:


> So that blows a hole in my last post. Is that wood ceiling in the porch?



There should be ice and water at the transition of the roof and wall also...


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## pokerduder (Jan 19, 2015)

nealtw said:


> If it's vinyl yes you should be able to move something enough to find screws or nails to remove, then you take them down in order.



Here's a new video showing a close-up of the underside. I'm not sure how helpful it really is. 

http://youtu.be/y67xT8kdjhk

I'm still not sure how they come off though. I figured they would just pop right out. You mentioned starting at one end and working my way down. I'll give that a try tomorrow.


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

pokerduder said:


> Here's a new video showing a close-up of the underside. I'm not sure how helpful it really is.
> 
> http://youtu.be/y67xT8kdjhk
> 
> I'm still not sure how they come off though. I figured they would just pop right out. You mentioned starting at one end and working my way down. I'll give that a try tomorrow.



This might be a better way to get a peek see.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_l0E86jbK0[/ame]


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## inspectorD (Jan 19, 2015)

nealtw said:


> This might be a better way to get a peek see.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_l0E86jbK0



The Soffit material you showed is vynil. It is really east to remove. 
Basicly just siding that is on the ceiling, Watch how this guy removes it.[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bh7tHkZBMs[/ame]
You may need to buy a  'ziptool"  but not a rotozip. ;-)
I still say, you have a problem above this porch, and the water is running behind the ledger board and siding at the top of the porch roof.

Y


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

inspectorD said:


> The Soffit material you showed is vynil. It is really east to remove.
> 
> Y



I think he has aluminum


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## pokerduder (Jan 19, 2015)

nealtw said:


> I think he has aluminum


Yeah, it's aluminum.


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

You could cut a hole like that with a skill saw.


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## inspectorD (Jan 19, 2015)

You can still use the zip tool to get it apart, it's just to start the piece, or make your own tool.. Then you need a knotted piece of rope behind it , and pull.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrnFDBcrRag[/ame]


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## nealtw (Jan 19, 2015)

inspectorD said:


> You can still use the zip tool to get it apart, it's just to start the piece. Then you need a knotted piece of rope behind it , and pull.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrnFDBcrRag



Can you find a video for that and can you put them back after?
Like that one you just posted.

And we won't talk about what they did with the house wrap.


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## pokerduder (Jan 23, 2015)

So the roof guy showed up (finally) and we talked briefly. He confirmed what I thought about the flashing being covered with shingles for cosmetic purposes. So in other words, they laid down the shingles, put the flashing over it like they were supposed to, and then put a row of shingles over the metal. But they secured those shingles by nailing them to the flashing. 

He admitted that the nails probably should have been caulked. But pointed out that the nails usually create a seal through the barrier when they are pounded in and that was the proper way to install them. We could see some nails raised up from the roof that needed to be pounded back down. 

He's going to come back later and nail down the nails and caulk. He said without it actually raining, he wouldn't know where the water was coming from.

Any thoughts?


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## nealtw (Jan 23, 2015)

I think you had more water than could come there from a few nails,


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 23, 2015)

You were fed a platter of manure. Flashing should NEVER have exposed nail through it. Even if it was caulked, the caulking will eventually fail. I would insist that he fix it properly. Just my :2cents:


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## pokerduder (Jan 23, 2015)

oldognewtrick said:


> You were fed a platter of manure. Flashing should NEVER have exposed nail through it. Even if it was caulked, the caulking will eventually fail. I would insist that he fix it properly. Just my :2cents:



What is the correct way? Just skip the cosmetic aspect of placing shingles over the flashing? Or is there another way f adhering the shingles to the flashing without pounding a nail through it?

thanks


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 23, 2015)

Head wall or apron flashing should be exposed and visible. I do not know any reputable roofer that tries to cover it up. I know quite a few roofers.


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## bud16415 (Jan 23, 2015)

http://www.nachi.org/flashing-part2-13.htm


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 23, 2015)

Great link Bud, thanks for posting it.


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## bud16415 (Jan 23, 2015)

This vid about 2/3 of the way thru shows a cover shingle as does the nachi link I posted above. In the vid they show gluing the cover shingle down to the flashing not nails. 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHxDhpfHmEg[/ame]


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## nealtw (Jan 23, 2015)

They didn't change the flashing. I think the bigger question would be the condition of the flashing that is there.
The fix would be to go back to inspectors post on removing the siding and the sheeting would be inspected at the same time.


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 23, 2015)

With out being able to get up on the roof and visually inspect the flashing and shingle install, the only thing we can do is speculate. Anything on or near is suspect, flashing's, walls, windows, overhangs. Once again, take a hose and leak test the area. This will usually find the source of the leak.


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## pokerduder (Jan 23, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> In the vid they show gluing the cover shingle down to the flashing not nails.



They say to either seal the nails or glue shingles to the flashing. So if they were to have just sealed the nails, how would that be any different than my situation where they nailed through the shingle and the flashing? (Granted, they didn't seal around the nails like they should have.)

I'm torn here because I've spent hours researching on Google the correct way to shingle over flashing. Some people say to never nail into flashing and others say that it's fine.

Blah. I need a drink. Is 1pm too early?


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## bud16415 (Jan 23, 2015)

:beer:Ya I saw them nailing that to the deck in the vid. I would rather see it nailed to the face I think. 

The hose idea is the best once it warms up. Start low and work up.:beer:


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## pokerduder (Jan 23, 2015)

So I just went out on the roof to shoot some more video and was able to see the flashing. 

They never replaced the flashing when they replaced the roof. So they left the old flashing which is probably 30 years old or more.

I don't know if this is why I'm having issues, but I'm pretty pissed right now. 

Wouldn't you expect the flashing to be replaced on a new roof? So I guess this explains why he likes putting shingles over the flashing.


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## pokerduder (Jan 23, 2015)

Awesome! Here's a short YT video showing what i saw... http://youtu.be/ufi6woJjvEw


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## nealtw (Jan 23, 2015)

You will find that more often than not, all be it, the right way to do it is to remove some siding and replace the flashing. Given the choice and the added expence would you have gone for the better method? The higher bid guys should have told you what they would have done, so you would know the difference.

I went back to the video to see if I could learn more.

No rain, freezing with snow sitting on roof.

Considerable amount of water leaking somewhere.

Ice dam material for six feet, should rule out the upper roof.

Ice dam material is not needed on a roof over unheated area. No ice dam on porch.

Aluminum is much like vinyl siding in that it leaks and a good house wrap is required to protect the house from  the water. New flashing around the windows could be closing an exit path for the water.

The flashing on the roof not being done right may cause a problem.

All that being said, the water had to come from somewhere that it was sitting frozen, so where  was the water sitting frozen?

Heat coming from the house may have been warming and melting the snow close or over the flashing, creating an ice dam situation.

By now we should all have seen snow melting on the streets and how much water can back up beside the curb when slush plugs up a 12 by 20 drain grate.

At the time of the video we can see the temp changed in a hurry we can see the top half of the porch roof had melted off . Where did that water go if the snow below does nothing more than impede it's path.


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## bud16415 (Jan 23, 2015)

The slighter the pitch the easier it is for any kind of slush dam to back melting water up hill and breach the top of the shingle. I think that might have been my first suggestion a couple days agowhen snow falls off that upper roof it will pile right where you said it would land. Then all that roof snow starts melting and coming off as slush and building a ridge the water on one side of the ridge runs off the other side works its way up under the old flashings and enters the roof. 

Neal said it&#8217;s a cold roof so no need for ice dam material under the shingles I don&#8217;t know about that some kind of self-sealing membrane might be in order if that&#8217;s what&#8217;s going on.


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## nealtw (Jan 23, 2015)

I just think that was too much water for the nails or window leak considering would have to come from snow sitting some where.


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## pokerduder (Jan 23, 2015)

nealtw said:


> I just think that was too much water for the nails or window leak considering would have to come from snow sitting some where.



I think you're right. It might be time to venture into the crawl space (attic) this weekend. Any advice on what I should be looking for (besides the obvious).

Should I address the fact that he never replaced the flashing even thought it might not be the root of the problem?

thanks


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## bud16415 (Jan 23, 2015)

The water doesn&#8217;t have to enter thru the nail holes. When it backs up it can go right up under that flashing with the big wrinkles and as it was reused it was ripped up and the new shingles slipped in below it no sealer went between the flashing and the shingle. If it backs up to the top of the shingle it has a big gap there to run right in anyplace it wants. By the looks of it to me a 2 or 3&#8221; ridge of slush would be enough with that pitch.


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## inspectorD (Jan 23, 2015)

Before you go into the attic... run the hose where the wall meets the porch roof flashing. If you get water running in the same spots, its the flashing. 
However... do not stop there... you may have more leakes above also. It could be a couple of things. But those nail holes would not contribute that much water to what we saw. Its usually, flashing that fails first.


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 23, 2015)

inspectorD said:


> Before you go into the attic... run the hose where the wall meets the porch roof flashing. If you get water running in the same spots, its the flashing.
> However... do not stop there... you may have more leakes above also. It could be a couple of things. But those nail holes would not contribute that much water to what we saw. Its usually, flashing that fails first.



We don't know how the wall is flashed with out demo. The underlayment should turn up the wall behind the siding. Could be ice damning, could be siding, could be windows, could be a lot of things...till some gets a hose and starts eliminating things, we will kick this horse till its glue...


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## pokerduder (Jan 23, 2015)

oldognewtrick said:


> we will kick this horse till its glue



lol... You guys are awesome! Thank you so much for all your help.


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## bud16415 (Jan 23, 2015)

If they didn&#8217;t remove the flashing but ripped it up to get the shingles out from under it and then nailed the new shingles down a few inches over thru the flashing after they slipped them under I doubt the new underlayment went up the wall behind the siding. If they took the shingles off with a shovel they most like ripped the old underlayment all up and slid it in under the flashing the same way. My guess is they were not to worried because it&#8217;s outside with a open porch and the roof above has a good size overhang. 

If you test it with a hose just running water on the roof will not back it up like a ridge of slush would I would spray it in at the bottom of the cover shingles and see if there is a path thru to the bottom side. Just from the last photo its clear water could easily go under the flashing its just a mater if it could get past the underlayment.


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## nealtw (Jan 23, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> If they didnt remove the flashing but ripped it up to get the shingles out from under it and then nailed the new shingles down a few inches over thru the flashing after they slipped them under I doubt the new underlayment went up the wall behind the siding. If they took the shingles off with a shovel they most like ripped the old underlayment all up and slid it in under the flashing the same way. My guess is they were not to worried because its outside with a open porch and the roof above has a good size overhang.
> 
> If you test it with a hose just running water on the roof will not back it up like a ridge of slush would I would spray it in at the bottom of the cover shingles and see if there is a path thru to the bottom side. Just from the last photo its clear water could easily go under the flashing its just a mater if it could get past the underlayment.



If there was any kind of dam the water didn't have to back up to the flashing it could get in anywhere and if you point a hose up at it, it will leak everywhere.


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## bud16415 (Jan 23, 2015)

nealtw said:


> If there was any kind of dam the water didn't have to back up to the flashing it could get in anywhere and if you point a hose up at it, it will leak everywhere.


 

I guess youre right if it can get thru the tar paper its in everyplace.


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## nealtw (Jan 23, 2015)

Your looking for the path of the water on the rafters, on the wall , mud on the top side of the soffet.
What you find will give you more to look at.


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## nealtw (Jan 27, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> I guess youre right if it can get thru the tar paper its in everyplace.



If the roof was sheeted with plywood or osb, a roof leak only shows up at the cracks between sheets and only tells you that you have a leak. The problem with the hose test is people move to fast, it can take some time for a small leak to show and someone could have moved up to siding and windows before the water shows up and end up going into un-needed repairs. So once the shingles have been hosed down for a while it should be coffee time before moving up to things above. Water showing up after hosing a window would indicate both window problem and a flashing problem.


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## bud16415 (Jan 27, 2015)

nealtw said:


> If the roof was sheeted with plywood or osb, a roof leak only shows up at the cracks between sheets and only tells you that you have a leak. The problem with the hose test is people move to fast, it can take some time for a small leak to show and someone could have moved up to siding and windows before the water shows up and end up going into un-needed repairs. So once the shingles have been hosed down for a while it should be coffee time before moving up to things above. Water showing up after hosing a window would indicate both window problem and a flashing problem.



 For water to drip down on his screen it has to be at the very top point under the flashing. If it makes it thru anyplace else it will run downhill and come out some place that doesnt mean anything about his problem.

  My point has been they ripped off the old roof and tar paper and mangled the old flashing and then slid the paper under it and also the top course of shingles and then camouflaged it with a cover row of shingles nailed down to lay flat. He has enough pitch to shed water but he doesnt have a good seal against the house. If and only if thats the problem or part of the problem. Hosing the top shingle and seeing water pour out below will tell him real quick that flashing was a short cut because they didnt want to mess around pulling a couple rows of siding and doing that right. If thats the case and it sounds like he had the roofer back out I would tell him remove at least 2 rows of shingles and the bottom siding and then do a proper underlayment, new shingles and a new flashing and forget the cover up row. I dont think hes going to find any rot but you never know. Now if there is still water coming from above the window guys have to be called back also. I would think when the siding is off he will be able to see if water is coming behind it. 

  He could also go up and snap off a row of siding not really that hard to do with the $3.00 hook tool and take a look to see whats going on.


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## nealtw (Jan 27, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> For water to drip down on his screen it has to be at the very top point under the flashing. If it makes it thru anyplace else it will run downhill and come out some place that doesnt mean anything about his problem.
> .



You missed the fact that the soffet has a slope back to the house do leak any where will show up at the house and then depending on the J trim the water could travel some distance before it shows up where it did. So an inspection of the dust on the top side of the soffet may tell a big part of the story.

I feel like I'am picking on you today.


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