# sloping slab floors, not related to foundation



## bgaviator (Nov 11, 2014)

Hello. I am new to this forum. I hope I can make my post make some sense, and hopefully this is the right forum, although it might be more appropriate in the foundation or flooring section.


We just bought our first house. It is only 15 years old. When I toured our house before buying, it was completely empty. I never noticed sloping floors because I was more concentrating on the overall look of the house. During our inspection our inspector made mention of how the floors had a slope to them in the kichen due to some spilled water that had rolled down towards the dining cove area at the end of the kitchen. I still didn't give anything much though....my mind was going a mile a minute with other thoughts as this was our first house purchase. 


Our inspector didn't turn up anything majorly wrong with the house. And I even wanted a structural engineer's assessment due to the terrain our house is built on (on a hill, that slopes dramatically down just past the back end of the house.) The structural engineer gave it a green light too, and his report stated that no structural repairs should be needed to our house. Minor settlement had occursed by the notation of some cracks in the brick veneer and mortar, but I was told these were very common and I should just tuck-point them so that moisture wouldn't get in. 

Once I got moved in, I then started noticing imperfections more, and the floor was a huge one. Our house is a slab foundation. 


About halfway across the living room (carpeted), you can start to feel the floor pitch downwards......the carpet from the living room butts right up to the tile in the kitchen floor, upon which you can see where the floor tile just past the end of the kitchen counter starts to pitch down as well. It is not only noticeable walking across, but I can visuall see it as well. The floor then pitches downward again about halfway across our master bedroom which is beyond the kitchen. It's like the floor slopes and then levels back out in sections.


I have a 4 ft level, and I placed one end at the end of our living room. I had to raise the damn thing 1 inch to get the bubble level! I slid the level down 4ft from the starting end, and I had to raise another 1/2 inch. So there's 1.5 inches of slope in just 8 ft! 


My immediate thoughts were some type of foundation issues. However our drywall had no common signs of foundation issues with any kind of cracks. The bottom trimboards all look original, and are straight. Windows open and close fine. Doors close fine. The brick around the fireplace in the living room all looks straight and level. Visually, most things look perfectly fine.

I had one foundation company come out, and he could find nothing majorly wrong that needed fixing. I asked him about leveling the floors and he warned me that it could get very expensive and messy. He said I would have to tear up all the kitchen tiles and replace, and possibly have to re-cut the door frames that leads to our back wood deck and raise the door up. He told me and I quote "If I were you, and it bothered me that much, I would just sell the house." This left me very distraught. 


I decided to get a second opinion and called a different foundation company. This second company tried to sell me on these push-piers because when they took a self leveling laser level, he showed me on the outside of the back end of the house was lower than the front half. 
He asked me if this was something I wanted to fix right away and I told him I wasn't sure.....as soon as I said that it's like he was done with me, and I was wasting his time. He never addressed the issue about my floors sloping because what he was trying to sell wouldn't have corrected the issue I really was concerned about. 


So here's the thing with me. I'm pretty OCD about things being straight and level. It is driving me insane that my floors slope like this. I am pretty convinced the house was just built this way.....the floors were like this before they started framing because everything else is visually and structurally fine from what we can tell.


I'm not sure why the builder would have left the floors this way, but I really want it corrected. The problem is that almost all the resources I've found on the internet, and companies I've found when I do keyword searches for "floor leveling" almost all have to do with foundation issues. Well I'm pretty convinced at this point I don't have a foundation issue, and that I just need to correct the sloping from the top. 


How would this be achieved on a large scale to include half my living room, the end of the kitchen, and going into our master bedroom? I am not even sure who to call, because foundation companies don't seem to be the answer for me. 


My wife doesn't understand why this makes me upset. She is fine with the sloping floors. I really love my house overall, but I HATE this part.....and it's aggrevating to the point where I can't enjoy living in my house because I'm constantly thinking about the imperfection. I appreciate any advice, thoughts, and suggestions.


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## oldognewtrick (Nov 11, 2014)

First off,  to House Repair Talk!

Have you revisited with the home inspector and engineer since you discovered the issue?


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## bgaviator (Nov 11, 2014)

I sent an email to the home inspector, and he told me my concerns were more appropriate to address to the structural engineer.  i wrote to the engineer, and he never wrote back.

the first foundation company I had come out was very familiar with my structural engineer and told me he was very good and they trusted his assessments.  But i'm not sure how much stock I take in that.  I'm leery and skeptical of everyone these days.


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## oldognewtrick (Nov 11, 2014)

Instead of merely writing, I'd suggest calling him on the phone and explain your discovery.


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## nealtw (Nov 11, 2014)

Check the ceiling for level, if it is level, that would be a sure sign that it was built like that.
Slab foundation may mean different things depending on location.
You said the back yard slopes away does the front foundation come up above the floor?


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## bgaviator (Nov 12, 2014)

Never thought about checking the ceiling. 
So let's say it was just a builder mistake or it was done on purpose....I fully understand I'm going to have to jack up all the porcelein tile in the kitchen to get that section level.......but what kind of company/person would be good to do something like this floor leveling?  Foundation companies seem to only be concerned if there is an actual structural issue.  Would I hire a flooring installation company?  Do they usually do these kinds of services in addition to installing new carpet/tile?


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## nealtw (Nov 12, 2014)

That would be some miner changes to the framing near the floor and having a concrete finisher re-level the floor.
That if the back half of the house isn't sliding down the hill or water hasn't washed the fill from under the slab.
Foundations are different in defferent areas because of frost in the winter so where do you live?


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## bgaviator (Nov 12, 2014)

Northern Mississippi


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## beachguy005 (Nov 12, 2014)

I would have to believe that the house wasn't built that way.  A stick built house on an uneven slab creates a lot of other construction issues.  A drywall contractor can always tell if a house is built level and plumb with proper spacing on studs because their drywall fits square and tight, especially in the corners.  
My point being that I don't think any framing contractor is going to build on an uneven base because it's so easy to fix beforehand and it makes the rest of the job very sloppy, and it's usually different contractors.
Get a good 6 foot level and check your walls for plumb.  If the house is sinking on one end your walls will list a bit also.  Just because everything looks original now, you don't know what it looked like before it was put up for sale.
As for leveling the existing.  There are concrete contractors that would do that.  You would take up the flooring, remove the baseboard and the door trim you could undercut in place. They laser level the floor marking the walls and pour a new surface.
There's a lot on youtube if you search slab leveling.


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## bgaviator (Nov 12, 2014)

I have a 4 ft level.  I checked the walls at the end of the house.  They are fairly plumb.  The bubble isn't perfectly centered, but it still is within the black lines.


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## nealtw (Nov 12, 2014)

Checxking the level of the wall is tricky as you may have crowned studs that would give you a bad reading, but to give it a try is good. Hold one end of the level away from the wall and note the distance when the level is plumb. But if the house is out 1 1/2" over fifteen ft. it will hardly show on the plumb. The ceiling against the wall above the bad area of the floor is a better indicator.


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## beachguy005 (Nov 12, 2014)

Frankly, I would live with it for the time being.  Reasons being is that you don't know if it's stable or getting worse.  Why level it now only to find out in a year the the house is actually sinking.


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## bud16415 (Nov 12, 2014)

First off welcome to the forum. 

I would say you have one of two sets of circumstances. One is the slab was poured wrong and the builder went with it rather than correcting it do to cost. In that case it is what it is and all your reports hold true and it is cosmetic and a nuisance that can be fixed or learned to live with. The second option is something has changed or is changing. The next step you have to assume in that case is the previous owner repaired the house to sell it. With that degree of movement without major repairs there would be large cracks in the flooring and walls and ceilings. Doors and windows would be messed up also. Depending on the degree of repairs done there will be clues you can use to figure out what case it is. 

You have to first look at the big picture and go outside and think about where this tilting point is in your house. Look at the lay of the land etc and ask yourself is this line at a point where excavation may have ended and filling began. Soil may have been moved from virgin ground to areas that needed to be filled trying to make a flat level surface. The soil moved needed to be compacted to a point it was as stable as the undisturbed area. Over time it went down caused problems inside the house and the fix was to make it look good again if not level. In that case you now will be stable and it is what your reports said. 

Inside you can do as suggested going around with your level and tape measure taking readings. All levels are not the same as to how far a half or quarter a bubble is and keep thinking if it was repaired things could have been shimmed to bring things back closer to plumb. If you go along and measure your ceiling height you may get more clues. Are the kitchen cabinets and the tile fairly new or do they look to be the 15 years old the house is. There are lots of ways to get clues but without being there or seeing many photos its hard to suggest what kind of detective work you need to do. Im just trying to give you the gist of how to go about doing it. 

Making it level might be a bit more than it first looks. Will you have to take up all the base cabinets and counter tops? 

My kitchen has close to as much sway as you are talking about because it is 100 plus years old and wood framed. I just worked around it and even though I know its out a mile I no longer notice it. I had a family member over and he said my god this floor is cockeyed. I said yes it is and he walked around remarking about how off it was and I said see if you can tell me where the high end is. He pointed to one end and said this is the high spot and I said well where is it low and he said over there. So I took a golf ball and set it at his low spot and it rolled up hill to his high spot. His eyes almost popped out of his head and I told him thats why I didnt fix it its scientific proof there isnt gravity.


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## slownsteady (Nov 12, 2014)

First thing first: get a grip on your OCD, because no house is perfect and if this stuff gets you crazy, you won't be happy in any house. I'll venture to say you may be lucky that the slope is there because it has captured all your attention 

But now: I couldn't tell from your original post whether you were checking level on the slab or on the floor above it. I find it hard to believe that your slab would slope in steps. If it settled unevenly, it would be one continuous slope from end to end.


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## nealtw (Nov 12, 2014)

I have seen this before with a high low foundation. The front is 8, 10 or 12 ft high and the back is the height of the slab. and frost protection depth. A newbe mistake is to step the back down too deep so they don't have the required depth for the slab over the front footing. If it is not cought in time for corrective action, the house is built and the concrete finishers have no choice but to do it like this.  There a simple repair they could but they never ask me.


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## bgaviator (Nov 13, 2014)

I thought I would share a little more about my house and its unique terrain situation.  My house sits on top of a hill, and at the back of my house, not much beyond where the brick ends, we have a hill that slopes dramitcally downward for about 20 ft or so before leveling out.  We have a wood deck in the middle back part of the house that overlooks this hill.  It provides for a grand view and all, but it is worrisome from an erosion concern.  It was one of the biggest concerns we had prior to buying the home.  
We decided we were willing to deal with it, as we plan on doing a multi-tier retaining wall to help with stability in the future, although my structural engineer inspection did not believe the house was going to be going anywhere.  

At the back corner of our house where our bedroom is, there is some very ugly concrete sticking out around the back side of the house and in the corner.  I asked my inspector and structural engineer about this as it didn't look right to me.  It was very odd looking.  Neither person seemed too concerned with it, and just stated it was extra concrete to the footer, probably to aid in stability due to the terrain behind the house.  

My concern was of course whether the house was having foundation issues, and this ugly concrete was added after the fact.....cause I honestly couldn't see why this would have been originally built this way, as such an eyesore.  But being a first time home buyer, and being in a rush to find a place, I went with their proffesional opinions that it was nothing to be too concerned about.

When I pointed this concrete out to the first foundation company that came to my house, he stated that we could only speculate why the concrete was added.  He said it could have been due to previous foundation issues, or it could have been done for another purpose......but that only by talking directly to the previous owners would we ever really know for sure.  

The previous owners on the home disclosure sheet had "no" checkmarked for any foundation issues or previous foundation repairs.

Here are some pictures of the back part of my house.  You will get a sense of how steep the terrain is below our house.  The shots of the tall ornemental grass is by my son's room.  They have a couple of tiers just constructed with landscape timbers....and they have a bunch of ornemental grasses, including Liriope.....I assume to possibly aid in soil stability.  The other shots are at our bedroom.  You can see the concrete sticking out along our back window.  The previous owners had constructed a flower bed using retaining wall block.  This past spring I filled it in with more soil and planted flowers.  I still would like to know whether this was all originally like this, or done after some issue had arisen.  I can't seem to get any straight answers, and I'm not sure who to trust.


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## bgaviator (Nov 13, 2014)

pardon the weeds in the pictures.....the yard and flower beds were in pretty terrible shape when we moved in earlier this year.  It's probably hard to tell, but in shot 2, the hill starts to drop down significantly not much beyond our back wall.  I had a landscape company come out to quote a retaining wall system, and using 3 tiers it was going to cost about $12,000.  The landscaper kept shaking his head, saying he couldn't believe they would built a house so close to a steep terrain like that without already having had some type of wall system in place.  He assured me though that the retaining walls he could put in would stop any erosion/stability concerns.


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## nealtw (Nov 13, 2014)

I would go the city and see if they have the original plans permits, inspection sheets, engineers report and geo-tect reports as well as permits pulled for repairs or improvements.
This is a red flag that should have stopped you dead at the time.


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## bud16415 (Nov 13, 2014)

I personally wouldn&#8217;t spend the 12 grand on a 3 tier arrangement designed by a landscaper unless I wanted it just for the artistic appeal of terraced gardens etc. You have several opinions you paid for by people in &#8220;The Know&#8221; that say you are stable and not to worry. Having some landscaper going in with a skid steer and notching away at the bank and putting in a couple retaining walls IMHO won&#8217;t improve what you are being told you have. If you doubt the information you were provided then hire someone else to do a new study for you without any skin in the game for getting work out of his report. 

It is just my guess again and I haven&#8217;t seen any photos from back a distance to see what the big picture is. If I had to guess there was some filling done on that side of your house before it was built. The compaction wasn&#8217;t enough and there wasn&#8217;t enough cover to the soil to establish the hill in the beginning and the house went down on that end by settling or by undermining. The fix was to dig down a little and pour that berm into a ditch and up the brick wall a ways. It was to act as a key and lock in what was under the house. After they felt they got it stable (?) they went inside and started doing the best they could given the slope and the broken slab. Some filling was done to blend out the areas and tile worked good as it could be laid to the contour. Drywall fixed and all the rest and they then just lived with it. Again that&#8217;s just a possible or plausible scenario to me. 

I wouldn&#8217;t have put in the block planter on that side. I really wouldn&#8217;t be doing to disturb that side and I would be encouraging growth etc. anything to shed water and keep the soil in place.  Around here the freeze thaw cycle would push the wall over and down the hill in one winter. 

Have you talked to the neighbors? Any of them been around long enough might remember the problems?

You need to not determine for yourself what you think needs done. You need to not build things that look like they are working to hold up the hill. You need to convince yourself that the first report was correct  or get another. You need to know is the hill side stable and if it is forget about it and do whatever you want inside the house to make you able to live there. If you find out the hill isn&#8217;t stable it won&#8217;t be a $12,000 fix you might be adding another zero to that number. You will be hiring lawyers along with professionals in these fields, not landscapers.


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## nealtw (Nov 13, 2014)

As usual Bud has the right idea. I would just like to know if there was a record of what was done and there should be. If the last owners didn't do or have the work done, then it was done by a previous    owner or the builder and then you (could) think that it is passing the test of time.
Up here we have rules to do with the slope away from the house. Once you go past some angle a retaining wall must be put in as part of the house foundation or further down the hill. Depending on the situation they go from slightly larger footings to extemes like 12" wall and 8ft footing with more steel than concrete. Costing any where from a few K to 100K.
With that in mind I would not let any one move soil around in the back yard to much depth with out a geo-teck on site to take responsibility for the job.


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## bgaviator (Nov 14, 2014)

it's more than just stability, the reason I want the retaining walls, it's also so I don't have to mow there!  It is dangerous and very difficult to mow that section.  The hill is so steep.  I want to have three tiers, with the terrain flat on each section, and plant something that will aid in soil stability like liriope, or any other kind of good soil stability plants.  Just something I don't have to mow!

I'm going to try and take more pictures tomorrow morning to show everyone what I'm working with.  This thread has kind of gotten off topic, but it kind of ties in to my original concerns with the foundation and sloped floor sections.


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## nealtw (Nov 14, 2014)

I can only tell what I have seen engineers call for in a simular situation.
On a sloped lot the builder wanted to build an allan block wall about 12 ft from the house to give the house some flat back yard. The block wall wants to be put on  undisturbed soil and the engineer wanted a true retaining wall for the house support, about $60,000. He compremized with the suggestion that the back of the house foundation was deep enough so he could draw a line from the bottom of the footing at no more that 30* decent that went below the footing of the block wall. So after the house was built they could intsall the allan block with no concerns about damage to the house.
The back wall was a full 8 ft deep with the slab level with the top of that wall.
Some of the things we don't know about your house are.
Type of foundation, depth of foundation, amount of steel in the foundation, size of footing.
What the problem was and who designed the repair.

Concrete footing and foundations are great for supporting the weight of the house under compression but any forces that pull on, it will fail everytime and that is why we have steel re-bar in it.

If you have an engineer design the work he will have all these answers before he writes his report on what to do. If he can't access the plans and reports from the city he will have you pay for someone to dig some beside the house and get some answers. Yup, expensive, but the upside is he is responsible for his work for 30 years as apposed to some strangers on line giving you their best well intentioned guess.


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## slownsteady (Nov 14, 2014)

Forget about mowing a slope that steep. Get a good "weed-whacker" and use it periodically.

If you want to add retaining walls, build them out in front of the slope and then backfill behind them. The more mass you have at the base of the mound will be somewhat helpful.

But by all means, as the guys have stated above, get an engineer who can be trusted and is not associated with any builder, to give you an honest assessment. If that won't satisfy you, make it a rental property and get a condo.


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## bgaviator (Nov 19, 2014)

I have watched these videos on YouTube by this company out in Arizona that can make your floors "super flat".....I wish there was that kind of service around here where I live.  I do a lot of Google searches and can't find anyone that really specifically talks about specializing in this stuff.....you mostly just find foundation companies.  

The reality is that even if it could be fixed, I won't have the money for years to be able to do it.  I imagine it's not cheap, especially considering all my kitchen floor tiles would have to be ripped up and replaced, and my doors leading out to my deck might have to be re-cut and raised up.  Sounds like a project that could just snowball into a money pit, and in fact, that's what the first foundation guy that came out told me.

I think I could eventually learn to live with it.....what upsets me the most is that I'm mad at myself that I didn't catch it during the initial walk-throughs.  I wish I would have asked more questions towards the inspectors, structural engineer, and even towards the previous homeowners.  Not knowing what the real situation with the house is what drives me nutz.  Any scenario upsets me though.....if A) the house was level and one point and something happened and they had to fix it, yet it still left imperfections like the sloping floors....I am upset that wasn't disclosed to us in the disclosure sheet......if B) the builders screwed up and the floors were sloped from the very beginning that disturbs me from just plain shoddy construction work, considering how easy it would be to level the floors prior to framing. 

Our house sat on the market for 8 months before we bought it......that was a concern of ours because a lot of other homes were going much quicker around this area.  I asked our realtor what the reason our house wasn't selling like the others were, and she stated it was the hill as the biggest factor....that it scares people away, and that if we eventually put in retaining walls it would help make it more marketable in case we ever decide to sell it.....

I can't help but wonder though if other people that walked through our house noticed the floors, and walked away.......I am one of the most observant people usually.....I almost always catch things others don't.....which is why I hate myself for letting the floor issue slip past me.  But as a first time home buyer, you are naturally overwhelmed, and are bound to make mistakes.  

My wife asked me if I had noticed the floors prior to us making an offer, if I would have even still put a bid on the house.......I can't say for sure, because everything else I love about our house......I just can't love the floors!


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## bud16415 (Nov 19, 2014)

When I grew up in the 60&#8217;s buying a house the term Caveat Emptor &#8220;let the buyer beware&#8221; was the rule. I used to hear my dad say it about used cars all the time. Times have changed and we now hire inspectors and have laws about covering over a problem with the intent of hiding it. In your case I don&#8217;t feel anything was being hidden, unless the problem continues and that end of the house keeps going down. All the people you have hired have told you the house is stable and sound. You had the chance to see the problem before buying and I know you are beating yourself up for not seeing it but we have all been there with places we have bought and found sleepers later on. 

We looked at highly distressed homes to buy for our house a couple years ago doing a real bargain hunting DIY approach to it. Every house we looked at had an asking price and came with the instruction of the house is what it is there is no implied representation that the house is sound and the deal is 100%  Caveat Emptor. They all said make an offer as the asking price hadn&#8217;t moved the house in several years. Almost every house we looked at we started with what we thought the low number was for just the building lot and then started itemizing the repairs based on paying to have them done professionally. When the repairs took the cost below the base price of the lot we stopped counting. And made that offer. And eventually got our house to start working on. 

My dad always told me the best position to be in buying anything is with the mind set you don&#8217;t need to buy this one as there will always be another. Falling in love with anything is the best way cloud your vision and show the seller you will pay more than they may have sold it for. 

In your case the bottom line is you have a really nice house that I think you got for a very fair price. Like every house there are pros and cons and you are bound to find a few sleeper issues in anything you buy used. You have to think about this as more of an issue of perception on your part than reality because you have said your wife isn&#8217;t bothered by it. Every transaction we make in life we could have most likely got a better deal. All you can do is get the best deal you can and then move on. Like poker you get dealt a hand and play it as best you can. Once the hand is over you just forget it or learn from it for next time but you can&#8217;t go back and replay it.


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## beachguy005 (Nov 19, 2014)

Frankly, at this point you own the property and you realize you should of handled it differently but that's now water over the bridge, or is it water under the dam.  In any case, you've been told it's stable.  As much as you'd like it fixed now, time is probably your best option.  Start a contingency fund to address the issue in the future when you'll have a better idea of the root cause, and if it changes.
Learning to live with it as it is, is better than beating yourself up over what you should of done. Your wife is okay with it.  Be very happy about that, just don't let the floor gnaw at you and keep you from enjoying your home.


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## nealtw (Nov 19, 2014)

I can't add much to what Bud abd Beachguy have said but I do agree with them.


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