# Newel post placement



## vinny186 (Jan 20, 2017)

Getting ready to install a handrail but was wondering if anyone had any suggestions as to where to place the newel post.

Would you place it in front of the knee wall or notch it out about 1/2 way to fit around the knee wall to possibly give it more support?


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## nealtw (Jan 20, 2017)

I would be tempted to cut some of that away and then put the post there. That will give you more room for 2 lags.
You may want to put it on the outside so it is not comfortable hand rail as you want to drive people to the other side of the stair case at the top.

I have had that staircase and you really do need the hand rail on the other side of the stairs.
If that is the same stairs as you transition post.


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## vinny186 (Jan 20, 2017)

Cutting it is a good idea because it will also provide more room on the landing. How would you get a plumb even cut?


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## bud16415 (Jan 21, 2017)

I think I wouldn't touch what was there at all and just cut the bottom of my post at a angle and attach it to the top of the cap piece if it looked like that was sturdy. Maybe with a threaded rod going down thru a hole or with a mortise. Just an idea.


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## Gary (Jan 21, 2017)

Mine may be a little overkill, but I cut a square hole in the floor in front of the first riser and attached a 4''x4'' to the floor joist north & south with carriage bolts and also the first riser east & west. Then after the floor was done I wrapped the 4''x4'' with oak. Been there nearly 20 years now with some pretty rough use from kids, etc. and not so much as a wiggle or creak.


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## vinny186 (Jan 21, 2017)

Thanks Gary. I might go that route if I can't find a less complicated alternative. 

Bud, my knee wall is 2 1/4" thick, would you cut the post to fit around the knee wall in some fashion?


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## Gary (Jan 21, 2017)

I might be inclined to do it like this. I'd put another face board over the front  also , I  left it open to show left, right & middle filler board. If the stringer is solid, which I presume it is, this should hold pretty well. IMHO 
If painting I would just fill the joints and sand smooth, if using stained & finished wood, I would probably 45° the joints to make it look like a one piece solid post. using quarter sawn on the opposing sides sells the solid post look a little better. Put some good sized screws through the post boards into the stringer, countersink & plug with wood plugs or put a finish baseboard around the bottom to cover the screws.


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## slownsteady (Jan 22, 2017)

Are you sure that wouldn't compromise the strength of the post?


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## bud16415 (Jan 22, 2017)

vinny186 said:


> Thanks Gary. I might go that route if I can't find a less complicated alternative.
> 
> Bud, my knee wall is 2 1/4" thick, would you cut the post to fit around the knee wall in some fashion?



 I like Garys idea and that is what I was thinking as well. 

Nice graphic Gary. :thbup:


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## vinny186 (Jan 22, 2017)

So instead of making a series of complicated cuts to fit the post around the base of the knee wall, cut the post at the correct angle to sit on top of the knee wall and cover it all up with face boards?


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## Gary (Jan 22, 2017)

vinny186 said:


> So instead of making a series of complicated cuts to fit the post around the base of the knee wall, cut the post at the correct angle to sit on top of the knee wall and cover it all up with face boards?



Yes, that's what I was thinking. You could glue the layers for a little extra support. It all depends how well that stringer is attached to the steps & the floor. There's a lot of stress there. Especially if you have kids that like to  use it as an anchor as they spin around it going up & down the stairs. :nono:


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## bud16415 (Jan 22, 2017)

vinny186 said:


> So instead of making a series of complicated cuts to fit the post around the base of the knee wall, cut the post at the correct angle to sit on top of the knee wall and cover it all up with face boards?



Most posts are made that way anyway. Most are hollow.


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## Gary (Jan 22, 2017)

Giving it a little more thought it wouldn't take much to install a lag bolt (drill pilot hole like a Kreg screw hole). Or, get a long bolt or ready rod, drill all the way through to the basement/crawl space & put a plate and nut on it. that would draw it down nice and snug.
Thanks Bud. I agree, the middle board is just a spacer, wouldn't even have to be a solid piece top to bottom. You could even put a stub piece on the stringer first, drill a couple holes straight down through the stub into the stringer and bolt that solid first. If you get that part plumb and anchored solid, the rest is a piece of cake.


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## nealtw (Jan 22, 2017)

vinny186 said:


> Cutting it is a good idea because it will also provide more room on the landing. How would you get a plumb even cut?


 
I will take that back.
The knee wall you are taking about is like just trim work with more trim work added to it, there is not enough strength there.

I like Gary's idea of going thru the floor but you would have to go thru the second flloor too to attach to the floor joists.


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## vinny186 (Jan 23, 2017)

No kids for me and knowing how it was installed, I probably won't even touch it when going upstairs - in fact what I should do is block it off with some yellow police line tape lol

I bought a 4 1/2" bolt to drill thru the post into the knee wall and will wrap the whole thing in 1/2" poplar which will be glued and nailed to the post.

Gary, what do you mean by "put a stub piece on the stringer first?"


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## nealtw (Jan 23, 2017)

One bolt is a pivot point.


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## nealtw (Jan 23, 2017)

If you look at Gary's picture in post 5 .
He has a 2x4 wall either incorporated under the rough treads or beside the stair case and he still went thru the floor.
What you have looks like trim board either slid  in beside the treads or cut out to fit the stairs, there is not structure there.


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## Gary (Jan 23, 2017)

vinny186 said:


> Gary, what do you mean by "put a stub piece on the stringer first?"



Yes, some what like this. If you have access to the underside of the floor there, you could run a couple ready rods through the whole thing with fender washers top and bottom or better yet steel plates. 
You'd need a long bit. I TIG welded an 1/2" rod to a 1/2" bit for stuff like this, but there may be long bits at a tool place maybe?  If you can make this stub post solid, you should have a fairly solid post. 

Another idea may be to cut the stringer back and lag bolt the post to the front of it and also toenail screws into the floor. Hard to say what would be the best route without knowing how sturdy that white stringer piece is.

A little more work but if you didn't have a long bit you could glue a laminate type stub post together and leave gaps in the center layer to run the ready bolts through.


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## vinny186 (Jan 23, 2017)

My basement ceiling is just below the stringer/knee wall so I'm going to open it up and see what sort of structure is there and hopefully come up with a way to solidify the post.

Gary, thanks for the diagrams, I imagine it must take some effort to create them but I find them very helpful.


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## Gary (Jan 23, 2017)

O.K., so now you know I have too much time on my hands. I'm on the injury list so I have to stay busy somehow.
Another solution might be to use metal plate, 3/16" would be more than plenty. You could probably get by with just the one plate on the front of the post as your railing would hold it from moving parallel to the stairs. And, a wide plate on the front would hold it from moving side to side because the plate would be in shear. Hear again though, it still depends on how well it can be anchored to something solid under the carpet. The plate wouldn't have to be thick, as I mentioned you would be putting a shear load on it, and it could be hidden by routing a cavity in the back side of the wood you box it in with. If you can pull the carpet up you could chisel a 3/16" pocket in the floor to eliminate a carpet bump. A matting plate under the floor and it would be solid.

If you're lucky enough to have a floor joist in that location to tie it off to that would be even better.


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## nealtw (Jan 23, 2017)

Gary said:


> O.K., so now you know I have too much time on my hands. I'm on the injury list so I have to stay busy somehow.
> Another solution might be to use metal plate, 3/16" would be more than plenty. You could probably get by with just the one plate on the front of the post as your railing would hold it from moving parallel to the stairs. And, a wide plate on the front would hold it from moving side to side because the plate would be in shear. Hear again though, it still depends on how well it can be anchored to something solid under the carpet. The plate wouldn't have to be thick, as I mentioned you would be putting a shear load on it, and it could be hidden by routing a cavity in the back side of the wood you box it in with. If you can pull the carpet up you could chisel a 3/16" pocket in the floor to eliminate a carpet bump. A matting plate under the floor and it would be solid.
> 
> If you're lucky enough to have a floor joist in that location to tie it off to that would be great.


If he has access to the framing below the sub floor will be in the way, but he could cut a hole so he could use nuts and bolts for the straps.
There is smaller system made for this. Kit 505
https://stairfasteners.com/s_newel.htm


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## vinny186 (Jan 23, 2017)

I just cut a hole in the ceiling to reveal the underside of the stairs and all I can see is   a plywood box on which sits the stringer. I drilled down thru the stringer 10" towards the basement but never saw the end of the drill bit (probably need a bit 2-3" longer)

I like your idea of encasing the post and stringer in metal plates because I could bolt thru to both sides of the stringer and post. For the underside of the stringer, I'll attach some sort of structure to bolt the base of the metal plates to.


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## nealtw (Jan 23, 2017)

That is a different picture than I was envisioning but that still is not strong enough so bolting thru to below some how is the best.
You landing does want to be 36" from the nose of the stairs. That might change where you place the post.


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## vinny186 (Jan 23, 2017)

Not sure if this gives any idea as to the strength of the knee wall but the original railing was a one piece metal hand rail that had three attachment points to the inside of the knee wall and also at the top of the stairs to a wall.


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## nealtw (Jan 23, 2017)

Steel might be more ridged. But my fear with the stringer is a few nails or screws to the floors and what ever is holding the treads in slots in the stingers. Could be just glue.


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## vinny186 (Jan 26, 2017)

After going through all my options and considering I's have to cut my carpet in 2 or 3 spots I decided to go a different route and go with metal newel posts that can be attached to the wall instead of the floor and cable to take the place of balusters. 

I appreciate all the good advice everyone posted.


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