# flip switch off, breaker trips



## shan2themax

Ok, so I just installed a ceiling fan in my sons room.  I have done this before and read the directions.  As long as you dont turn the switch 'off' everything works fine.... if you flip the switch off to turn off the fan/light, the breaker trips.... I cant say I have ever had this happen before I certainly havent, although I have tripped breakers when turning a switch on... just not by turning it off.....


It had 2 blacks out of the ceiling and one black from the fan, and one blue to the light kit, I put these all together.
I had two white from the ceiling and one from the fan.  These are together, 
I copper from green screw on fan to ground on the ceiling mount. Copper from ceiling attatched to ceiling mount.

and let me reiterate, it only trips when turning the  switch OFF

what in the world have I done?


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## donmorgan

If the power was brought in at the ceiling box and not the switch box this will take some correction in your hook up of the fan. Look at the connections on the switch are there two black wires or a white and a black connected to the screws on the switch? let me know and we will go from there. You may email me directly through my website contact form if you wish...Don


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## shan2themax

I will check tomorrow as I cannot see in the room right now to take the switchplate off, but... I needed to replace the switch anyways, so this will give me the momentum  to do it... I will do this in the am..... 

Thanks for offering to help...

BTW, am I right in guessing that if there is a white and a black that I need to connect a white and a black together in the ceiling?  I do have 2 of each plus the 3 wires in the fan that go to them, but... I guess we can get to that tomorrow....

Thanks again!!!

I should add that the ceiling fan I took off didnt have a light kit but the blue and black where wired seperately to the each black I think...... I could be wrong... but, I am sure that both whites where together because they are taped together and I didnt untape them, I just cut some of the tape off and put my other white from the fan with this....

I thought that this may be important....


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## shan2themax

i added a little information to my last post about how the previous fan was wired... 

nonetheless, the switch has one black and one white wire.  The black wire goees in top of the switch (where you can see the word 'off') and the white wire is going to the bottom of the switch.


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## donmorgan

Do you own a voltage meter or tester? We will need to check some things.


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## shan2themax

I have a multimeter... not digital


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## donmorgan

Did you wire the switch?


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## shan2themax

no, I didnt change the switch out and didnt bother it at all until this am to see what color wires there were.... I might add just for clarification for me..... in the ceiling there are 2 neutral and 2 hot and 2 grounds.  the neutral were taped together and the nots were not, the grounds are wired together also


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## donmorgan

I am wondering if the power from the breaker box was brought in at the ceiling box and not the switch box. When you told me that there was a white wire on the switch I believe the power was brought in at the ceiling box in which case we need to check where the power s coming from. With the switch in the off position check to see if you have power in the ceiling box between a white and a black in the same cable pair. We may have to disconnect all the wires in the ceiling box to isolate the power source. Be careful. Wear gloves if you need to.


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## shan2themax

Just so I get this right.... I am going to turn the switch to off... which is going to trip the breaker.... and while it is off I am going to check neutrals and hots?


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## donmorgan

we need the power on to check where the voltage is coming from. Either from the switch box through the switch or from the breaker box through the ceiling box to the switch.


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## donmorgan

In the switch box is there just one white one black and a ground?


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## donmorgan

B.T.W. is that a ground fault or arc fault breaker (has a test button)?


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## shan2themax

one white one black one ground in swith, no it is not a testable switch, 

still working on testing


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## shan2themax

ok, so I think my mulitmeter is junk... the only thing I can get it to read are batteries....

with the fan totally unwired teh switch works without tripping a breaker....

I am using the dc on the multimeter with the black probe on ground and the red probe on what I want to test... and it isnt showing anything at all, even if you flip the switch... so I am going to assume that unless I am doing something incorrectly that the multimeter doesnt work


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## donmorgan

The meter needs to be in AC mode above 120 volts. Some times the leads on the meter need to be switched to accomplish AC mode. I don't know the type of meter you have.


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## shan2themax

I thought I tried that too (ac) but, nonetheless, i will go attempt it again... it has been a while since I have used this thing.... It is analog


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## shan2themax

both neutrals have nothing, one hot has nothing, one hot has 110ish (these are from the ceiling)


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## donmorgan

analog is fine test the meter on a known good outlet ie. one where a lamp is currently working.


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## shan2themax

shan2themax said:


> both neutrals have nothing, one hot has nothing, one hot has 110ish (these are from the ceiling)



we posted at the same time... lol


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## donmorgan

between a hot and neutral from the same cable we find the supply circuit from the breaker box


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## shan2themax

so, I am understanding that the whites need to be capped off, and the hot is the hot (black) and the neutral hot is the neutral (pretend its white?)

and I thought I had a pretty good understanding of some electricity until this ceiling fan.


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## donmorgan

You need to take the hot in the ceiling box with the voltage on it a connect it to the white wire going to the switch box. The black coming back from the switch goes to the fan black and blue wires. The white that was with the hot wire in the ceiling box will connect to the fan white wire. The grounds all connect together and connect to the green on the fan. Does this make sense? Please ask for clarification if not. Be careful.


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## shan2themax

It does and it doesnt..... first off..... how do will I know which of the white wires goes to the light switch?  

Now as far as connecting the wires from what I read this is what I understand.... the hot black and both of the whites( one coming from the switch and the other connecting to the white on the fan) will connect together with the fan white?

and

the black and blue on the fan will connect with the black coming back from the switch?

Please correct me if I got that wrong!


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## donmorgan

The white that goes to the switch will not read any voltage when you check with your meter between it and the black that is hot. Would it be easier if you called me. Feel free to if you want I trouble shoot questions from my website all the time. If not we will continue on this way. But re-read my instructions. You will not tie the whites together at the ceiling box.


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## shan2themax

I dont know what website you are talking about...

So, I am going to undo the white wires (they are twisted together) and figure out which one goes to the switch (this is where my problem lies) and once I do that.  I will connect the hot black with white switch, then the other white to the white fan.  then the neutral black to the black/blue fan

Is that correct?

I guess my thinking was that the previous fan had both whites together and that is what was confusing me as the fan worked, it just didnt have a light kit


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## donmorgan

Yes, that sounds right. Look at my profile for my website. I think you can just click on my name above the picture of the pipe left of the posts.


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## shan2themax

ok... so this is embarassing to say at 37, but, My mother is on my phone and is refusing to get off of it.....

so.... I guess the biggest question is..... how do I know which wire is the switch wire?


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## donmorgan

Between the hot black wire in the ceiling box and only one of the white wires should you get a reading. The white wire that you don't get a reading from should be the one that goes back to the switch box...also it should be the one that is bundled in the same cable with the black wire that had no voltage on it.


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## shan2themax

I am not sure If i can see enough of it... but ... I will look again to make sure...
and now that I have read what you responded... duh...... 
sometimes.... I am just downright silly....


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## shan2themax

ok... I see what you are saying and I am going to get busy fixing it... I will post back when I am done... and thank you kind sir... for all of your help.


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## shan2themax

ok, so I checked the wiring again... still one hot black one neutral black and two neutral whites, grounds together.... then I turned the breaker and switch off.

I took tthe hot black and the neutral white and put it with the white on the fan.  I then took the neutral black and neutral white and put it with the black/blue fan wires........

On the switch the top screw (see word OFF) is black and the bottom is white.

I turned the breaker back on and it tripped
I turned the breaker off, then flipped the switch to on, and the breaker tripped

and I had such high hopes... lol

so, I am going to read back through all of this...........


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## shan2themax

I think I know what I did wrong... hang on.....


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## donmorgan

That is why I thought phone would be better. So you can tell me in real time what you see and I could ask better questions. I understand your hesitance at a phone conversation. It's a sad commentary on our society. Keep trying though I may draw a diagram and post it, if I can figure out how...Don


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## donmorgan

Connect hot black in ceiling box to white in ceiling box going to switch. White in ceiling box that was with the hot black in ceiling box to fan white, then black coming from switch box to fan black and blue.


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## shan2themax

I will have the phone in a few minutees as she is leaving... so, hang on and I will call that number


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## shan2themax

OK..... so I won the battle with the ceiling fan along with the smarts of DONMORGAN.  he was a huge help... now the Fan turns on and off and the blades spin around and everything... now... If i had only bought the correct light bulb....hmmmmmm



thanks DOn


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## donmorgan

I'm not responsible for light bulbs. I take it everything works as it should with the switch.


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## kok328

oops, didn't see page 4.  congratulations.


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## Taconnica

:2cents:



donmorgan said:


> Connect hot black in ceiling box to white in ceiling box going to switch. White in ceiling box that was with the hot black in ceiling box to fan white, then black coming from switch box to fan black and blue.




This is a confusing way to put it...but once I deciphered what was meant by it, it helped me a lot.  I was having the EXACT same issue.  Basically... there are only two possibly ways for the wires to go...it's a bit like a puzzle.  One way is right and one way is wrong.

The black wire from one black and white wire pair (in the same protective plastic coating) coming from the ceiling is wired to the other ceiling pair's white.  The white that is now by itself in the ceiling (no other free white wire there) goes to the ceiling fan's white wire.  The last black wire that is now by itself in the ceiling goes to the ceiling fan's black and blue wires.  Grounds are always together and screwed to the box in the ceiling.  In my case the two grounds from the ceiling were actually still one wire and screwed into the ceiling box already so I wired the green wire from the fan seperately to the box as well. 

If you start by connecting one black ceiling wire (from one black/white pair) to the opposite (black/white pair) white wire, then connect the leftover white wire from the ceiling to the white wire from the fan and the rest of the wires together (excluding the ground wires); so... leftover black ceiling wire to black and blue fan wires it will either work...or it wont.  If it doesn't work, you should then disconnect everything (or disconnect wires as you go to make the process less confusing on yourself) and connect the first black ceiling wire to the other white ceiling wire (the one it is has not yet been connected to) and repeat the process above.

Black Ceiling Wire (HOT) => Opposite White Ceiling Wire
Other White Ceiling Wire => White Fan Wire
Other Black Ceiling Wire  => Black and Blue Fan Wire

This is NOT a safe way to do it (the whole trial and error thing), however it will work if you have a safe breaker system set up.  I got lucky and it was correct on my first try. :

I hope this way of wording it will help someone work their way through the process.  If not...hire an electrician like we all should be doing!


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## shan2themax

My problem with it all was:
1.) as always, I was making it harder than it was....
2.) the way it was all taped together and how the original fan was wired... Im not even sure how it ever worked......

We hadnt used that fan in almost 2 years because it would only work sometimes and the only when you had the air pulling up... and it didnt have a light kit attached... yet it was wired for one.... It was a huge mess....
Luckily, I wrapped my pretty little head around it, and it makes total sense to me now, but in the heat of the moment... I needed a pacifier.....
lol


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## donmorgan

The wiring in this situation was because the power was brought into the ceiling box and not the switch box as it should have been, this is within code but can be confusing to a novice. If you have a volt meter and determine which pair is the power from the breaker box then the odds are that the other pair goes to the switch. You can use the ohm function to do a continuity check to verify that the non-power pair is indeed going to the switch if you like. To make the black to white wire connection meet code you would simply wrap some black tape on the white wire that is attached to the black wire near the connection to designate it as a hot wire so any electrician working on it later would know that it is hot.


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## shan2themax

That is what I did.  That way later on, I will remember that it is actually black, and hopefully if anyone besides me has to work on that, they will understand it! 
thanks again don


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## donmorgan

I was quite impressed with you shan2themax. I like the fact that you were relentless in trying to resolve the problem. I love it when a women does not allow the fact that she is a women to get in the way of tackling a problem. I have heard to often "I can't do that cause I'm a women" I know lots of guys who can't some of the simplest things. The only reason guys can do what they can do is because someone showed us. Men weren't born knowing the difference between a screwdriver and a crescent wrench, someone showed us. Many women I have met can accomplish some amazing things when someone just shows them how. As a matter of fact from personal experience some of my best employees have been women. Congratulations on not giving up, it speaks highly of you. It was my pleasure to be able to lend a hand. Keep up the good work...Don


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## shan2themax

Thank you very much... I am blushing... lol... I love to learn AND.. I want to do it right... for 2 reason.... 1.) I want to do it right... and 2.) I dont want to have to do it over again.... lol

But, I do seriously like learning about fixing things around the house... I hear people talking about how much they paid someone to do this or that... and I am appalled!  I guess because I have only experienced being able to pay for things on time for a very short time in life. I try to be very fiscally responsible.
Or maybe..... maybe I am just cheap... either way... I love being able to learn and learn to do interesting things! Now, just if I could con helpers into helping so it didnt take me such a long time to get things done.. I could do more, and I wouldnt get burnt out so fast...


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## donmorgan

Cheap is good, learning is good. Never stop learning. When you stop learning you die.


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## glwatman

You didn’t explain why the breaker would trip when you turn the light switch off!


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## afjes_2016

Welcome to the forum "glwatman"

You may not have noticed but this thread has not had any activity for almost 11 years - simple oversight I am sure.

We do welcome suggestions and assistance from everyone though. Hang around. Its a nice place to be.


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