# Multiple Lights Stop Working



## eharvey650

Hello to all. Looking for some information to steer me down the right road to fixing my electrical issue. I'll try to be precise in describing it. One evening had three light fixtures stop working at approximately the same time. They were all on and went out. They are: hallway bathroom ceiling light, vanity light (same bathroom), and hallway ceiling light (right outside the bathroom). I later discovered that a bedroom closet light (backside of the bathroom) does not work now either. I suspect that they are all on the same circuit. There is a total of 5 switches that control these 4 lights ( 2 for hallway light). Checked for voltage at all the switches, there is none. Reset all circuit breakers. Still nothing. Checked voltage of all breakers, everyone checks out ok. What should I be checking next? All other lights, outlets and appliances are working. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Ernest


----------



## Snoonyb

You'll need to find where the hot pair feeds the circuit and it could be in either a switch box or in a fixture box.

If you have no indication of voltage in any of the switches, it's probably in one of the fixture boxes.

I would start at the ceiling fixture in the bathroom and because it "appears" that the loose connection is with the hot conductor, be very careful.


----------



## bud16415

Just a thought and only because you mentioned bathroom and a sudden loss of power. Do you have a GFCI in the bathroom and have you checked it to see if it tripped?


----------



## beachguy005

When you checked the voltage of all the breakers, did you check the actual load side of the breaker, at the breaker, for that circuit?  And as bud pointed out...check the GFCI.


----------



## Kabris

When testing for voltage at switch locations, did you test hot to neutral and hot to ground? If you get 120V from hot to ground but not hot to neutral, you lost a neutral somewhere, possibly in your panel. If that's the case, check the connections on your neutral buss.


----------



## afjes_2016

I agree with some others that have suggested this; since there is a bathroom involved please be sure (that if there is a GFCI receptacle in the bathroom), that the GFCI did not trip. Although a circuit for a bathroom may not go to any other room except for another bathroom does not mean someone did not do this. Some electricians do put the bathroom lights on the GFCI. I for one does when my customer requests it. I usually give them the option when wiring. Yes, putting the lights on a gfci may end you up in the dark if it trips but also when coming out of the shower or washing your hands and flipping the light switch you could get a shock, so therefore GFCI is handy in that case. Personal preference.

Please explain how you checked for voltage. Also, approximately how old is this house? Again, a GFCI may be the culprit but maybe not in that bathroom but somewhere else. I have seen set ups where someone wired a GFCI next to the breaker panel, wired to load and ran to a bathroom and to outdoor receptacles to save money; by far not to code. I have even seen a GFCI in a garage protecting a bathroom.


----------



## eharvey650

I should have mentioned that neither of my bathrooms have GFCI. House was built early 70s. I do plan on having them installed in the future.


----------



## nealtw

eharvey650 said:


> I should have mentioned that neither of my bathrooms have GFCI. House was built early 70s. I do plan on having them installed in the future.



Aluminum wire?


----------



## nealtw

If you have power at the breaker and all the wires are tight in their connections. Make a mental or written list of everything that is not working and turn that breaker off and see what else turn off, there could be a loose connection in one of those boxes.
If you don't find a loose connection in a good box then start taking things apart in the switches and light fixtures and outlets. You are looking for a live pair with a loose connection.
Start with the closest to the breaker box.


----------



## afjes_2016

You need to let us know how you checked for voltage first.

Even though you do not have GFCI receptacles in the bathroom please check other areas of the house. I have found some homes that have GFCI protection in the bathroom by a GFCI in a garage or basement. Yes, this is not code but this does happen. Find all GFCIs in your home first, be sure they are all reset and have power. Doing this first will be far faster and easier in troubleshooting.

Then be sure you have voltage on the circuit from the panel (be sure you know what circuit you are dealing with).

If you take apart any switches or receptacles be sure you take pictures and or notes so when you put them back together you don't complicate the issue with more.

A very big culprit is usually receptacles that were installed via "back stab" instead of the conductor being placed under the screw of the receptacle. Again, also check all your connections, wire nuts are tight etc. Open each box whether if be switch or receptacle and check your connections there. You may find one box that has power coming in to it but not going back out causing the problem. I do this first before I start taking apart ceiling fixtures that are not functioning simply because most times it is a switch or receptacle that causes the issue.

Also when you take apart switches (especially if there is a black and white wire going to the switch) only test from both black to ground OR white to ground. Testing from black to white will not tell you anything as it is probably a switch loop and many people then think that is their problem.

When you take apart switch boxes especially if there are more than one switch some people get confused as they find power coming into the box and still the lights/receptacles are still not working. This could be because there are two separate circuits coming into one box. When I wire I never bring in more than one circuit to the same box.

If you are absolutely sure you know what breaker you are dealing with and you are familiar with removing a wire from a breaker try switching breakers. Disconnect the black from the breaker in question, connect it to another temporarily and see if you then have power.

If you find any of the let's say receptacles have 120v going from black (hot) to ground but not neutral to hot then you are looking for a loose neutral. 

Check the affected breaker, follow where the romex comes into the panel and find the neutral. Check the neutral connection at the neutral bar and be sure it is secure.

Again, do not attempt any work in the panel unless you are familiar with doing so. And remember, even if you shut off the main breaker the lugs coming into the panel are STILL HOT!!

Once you do all this and get some results we can then guide you a bit better as to what your next step is.

I may have included things in here you may already know but I don't and others here don't know your skill level or ability working with electric.


----------



## eharvey650

Kabris said:


> When testing for voltage at switch locations, did you test hot to neutral and hot to ground? If you get 120V from hot to ground but not hot to neutral, you lost a neutral somewhere, possibly in your panel. If that's the case, check the connections on your neutral buss.


 

I haven't tested any connections at the switches with a multimeter, only with a non contact voltage alert device to see if any wires were getting power. None of the switches box light up. The bathroom ceiling light seems to be were power enters from breaker. It has three 3 separate conduits of wires in there. The vanity light has 1 and the hallway light has 2 (probably because it has a switch upstairs and downstairs).


----------



## afjes_2016

eharvey650 said:


> I haven't tested any connections at the switches with a multimeter, only with a non contact voltage alert device to see if any wires were getting power. None of the switches box light up. The bathroom ceiling light seems to be were power enters from breaker. It has three 3 separate conduits of wires in there. The vanity light has 1 and the hallway light has 2 (probably because it has a switch upstairs and downstairs).



Do not rely mainly on a "contact tester" they can give you incorrect results at times.

Again, before you start anywhere else are you getting power at the breaker to the black wire going into it? That is your first step besides being sure you are working with the proper breaker. You will need a meter for this. Test from breaker to neutral or ground bar to see if you get 120v. If you don't then be sure the black wire is firmly seated (secured) behind the breaker screw. Until you find out if you have power at the breaker you could be spending a lot of time for nothing. Again, if no power at the breaker try swapping the black wire to another breaker that is working. BUT again, only work in the panel if you are familiar with it and know what you are doing.

We can't assume anything at this point as to where the problem may be as we can tell so far that the bathroom was not wired to code so therefore the problem may exist outside the bathroom.


----------



## Snoonyb

eharvey650 said:


> I haven't tested any connections at the switches with a multimeter, only with a non contact voltage alert device to see if any wires were getting power. None of the switches box light up. The bathroom ceiling light seems to be were power enters from breaker. It has three 3 separate conduits of wires in there. The vanity light has 1 and the hallway light has 2 (probably because it has a switch upstairs and downstairs).



If you have an indication of the presence of voltage in that ceiling fixture, shut successive breakers of until you have no indication of voltage.

The black conductors will probably be grouped together in a single wire nut. Remove the wire nut and if the conductors are loose, twist them together and reinstall the wire nut, turn the breaker back on.

You'll need a simple VOM (volt/ohm meter) to accomplish voltage tests behind the dead front panel of the elec. service.


----------



## DFBonnett

Had a similar problem at my daughter's condo. Was painting bedroom #1 and lost power to bedroom #2. Seems all power to #2 came from a stab connector on an outlet in #1. Wire had been partially cut through, likely during initial installation, and removing the outlet cover was all that was needed to finish the break. Your problem may be similar.


----------



## eharvey650

afjes_2016 said:


> Do not rely mainly on a "contact tester" they can give you incorrect results at times.
> 
> Again, before you start anywhere else are you getting power at the breaker to the black wire going into it? That is your first step besides being sure you are working with the proper breaker. You will need a meter for this. Test from breaker to neutral or ground bar to see if you get 120v. If you don't then be sure the black wire is firmly seated (secured) behind the breaker screw. Until you find out if you have power at the breaker you could be spending a lot of time for nothing. Again, if no power at the breaker try swapping the black wire to another breaker that is working. BUT again, only work in the panel if you are familiar with it and know what you are doing.
> 
> We can't assume anything at this point as to where the problem may be as we can tell so far that the bathroom was not wired to code so therefore the problem may exist outside the bathroom.


 

I rechecked all the breakers and they all are reading between 122.7 to 123.3 volts at the box. My son and I spent the better part of a day checking every fixture, outlet, appliances, and switches to identify what was working or not. And what had power or not. We went one breaker at a time to identify what was on each breaker. We did have 2 120 breakers that we could not determine what was on them. Keep in mind that the lights in question could be on one or both of those breakers. Do you think that the bathroom ceiling fixture with the three sets of conduits is the point where power is coming from the breaker? Of could there be a junction box in between the breaker and that fixture?

To answer a question in a previous thread about my level of experience. I'd consider myself a novice when it comes to home electrical wiring and codes. I'm a retired aircraft mechanic now driving tractor trailers. But I'm always up for learning new things.


----------



## nealtw

Two breakers?
You could have 2 breakers feeding, they do that to save wire, they will be feeding one cable with 2 hot wires, black and red, and the breakers should be tied together, so when one kicks off the other goes with it.
If that is the case finding the first box will be as easy as finding the box with that red wire.

Those two breakers are 15 amp?
You have found range, dryer, water tank, AC  breakers.

As power is going to one unit an another and another and so on, you will not be able to tell witch is the first.

The first hint is the switches, if there is only one cable, it is a switch leg and the power is at the light.
Three cables in the light box is a good hint, could be power coming in and going out and a switch leg.
Look for that red wire first if you have a red that light box would have 4 cables.


----------



## eharvey650

nealtw said:


> Two breakers?
> You could have 2 breakers feeding, they do that to save wire, they will be feeding one cable with 2 hot wires, black and red, and the breakers should be tied together, so when one kicks off the other goes with it.
> If that is the case finding the first box will be as easy as finding the box with that red wire.
> 
> Those two breakers are 15 amp?
> You have found range, dryer, water tank, AC breakers.
> 
> As power is going to one unit an another and another and so on, you will not be able to tell witch is the first.
> 
> The first hint is the switches, if there is only one cable, it is a switch leg and the power is at the light.
> Three cables in the light box is a good hint, could be power coming in and going out and a switch leg.
> Look for that red wire first if you have a red that light box would have 4 cables.


 

I found the red wire in the bathroom ceiling light box. Let me make a corrections to an earlier post. There are 4 conduits in the bathroom ceiling box, not 3. One is a 4 wire conduit and the other 3 are 3 wires. The 4 black wire are tied together with a wire nut. The 4 whites are tied together. And the 4 bare copper wire appears to be together. Though unsure about the latter because I see no wire nut connected. The red wire is going to the light fixture. And a 6 inch section of black wire is tied in with the 4 white wires at the wire nut, and that black wire then connects to the light fixture. What should be my next course of action?


----------



## eharvey650

nealtw said:


> Two breakers?
> Those two breakers are 15 amp?
> You have found range, dryer, water tank, AC breakers.


 

The two breakers in question are 15 amp. All of the major appliances are accounted for and their breakers.


----------



## Snoonyb

See post #13.

The 15a breakers are probably your light circuits.


----------



## nealtw

Your description of how the wires are sounds wrong.

Do you have power at the light box now?


----------



## Snoonyb

eharvey650 said:


> The red wire is going to the light fixture. And a 6 inch section of black wire is tied in with the 4 white wires at the wire nut, and that black wire then connects to the light fixture. What should be my next course of action?



The red and black conductors are a switch leg.

They used "crimp-sleeves" to bond the bare copper conductors, (grnd). during that era.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> The red and black conductors are a switch leg.
> 
> They used "crimp-sleeves" to bond the bare copper conductors, (grnd). during that era.


No they are not He has a three wire from the breaker box


----------



## Snoonyb

Which you "assumed" was 240V;"You could have 2 breakers feeding, they do that to save wire, they will be feeding one cable with 2 hot wires, black and red, and the breakers should be tied together, so when one kicks off the other goes with it."


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> Which you "assumed" was 240V;"You could have 2 breakers feeding, they do that to save wire, they will be feeding one cable with 2 hot wires, black and red, and the breakers should be tied together, so when one kicks off the other goes with it."



I assume lot's of stuff in order to get all the answers before making suggestions.


----------



## eharvey650

nealtw said:


> Your description of how the wires are sounds wrong.
> 
> Do you have power at the light box now?


 

It's exactly as I described. The four wire conduit has a red, black, white and bare copper wire. The other three conduits have only a black, white and copper wires. All four blacks are tied together. All four whites are tied together. The four bare copper wires are loosely twisted together (seems very loosely). The red strand of wire from the four wire conduit is connected to the back side of the ceiling light wire. And from the four white wires joined by wire nut, a short section of black wire was added at the nut and it connects to a wire from the back side of the ceiling light. I don't know if that's wired properly or not, but it worked for 19 years. Can someone explain to me how to properly test this box and all its wires?


----------



## nealtw

With the breakers turned on you should have 120 volts between black and white and 120 volts between red and white.

If you are sure that your wiring is as said, this is not the first box, confirm that there is a red wire to one of the breakers.
Look in the switch box for a red wire.


----------



## afjes_2016

While using a 3 wire cable (romex) with a ground is used sometimes to save wire it is mainly used for what they called a MWBC (multi wire branch circuit). Yes, by code you must have a tie between the two breakers if using two individual breakers or you may use a two pole breaker. One conductor (wire) such as red would go to one breaker (or pole of a two pole), the black to another, the neutral white wire to the neutral bar and the ground of course to the ground bar.

However, first let us not assume because he sees a red wire in the ceiling fixture of the bathroom that he has a multi wire branch circuit. They are usually used in switched receptacles or alternating receptacles from one to the next. It is possible (as I have installed many of these) that if he has a fan within the light fixture that the fixture was wired with a 3 wire romex so that one conductor would energize the light and one the fan independently as wanted. If he has two separate switches that normally run this light fixture as in one for the fan and one for light this may be the case.

eharvey650: Your use of terminology my be confusing some of us which is fine. Now that you have stated your knowledge level we know a little better how to word our answers. You use the term "conduit". Without me having to re-read all your responses to be specific lets start with the correct termonology first. This will help. What do you mean by conduit? Are the wires (individual conductors) within a "pipe" we will call it now whether it be metal or plastic PVC, metal sleeve? A Romex is a set of conductors within a sheath outter layer and within are individual conductors each having its own insulation (except for ground most times). Let's not confuse cables with wires with conduit etc. You can call a romex a cable, the conductors inside are just that conductors or wires. Some cities and towns require conduit to be used in residential homes so it is not uncommon but not in many places. I think Chicago is one of them. However if it is conduit keep in mind that the electrician wiring did not have to use a specific color conductor when running the wires within the conduit where as if it is a manufactured romex cable the colors are normally standard. First, is it a conduit or Romex. 

Here is said
"The red wire is going to the light fixture. And a 6 inch section of  black wire is tied in with the 4 white wires at the wire nut, and that  black wire then connects to the light fixture. "

It seems that they used black wire as a jumper from the neutral (white wires) to the light which should be connected to the white wire of the light fixture. They  should have use white. The red wire going to the fixture I would assume is connected to the black wire of the light fixture. How many wires (conductors) are coming from the light fixture itself?

And does the light fixture have a fan. If so is there a separate switch you use to turn on the fan only?


----------



## eharvey650

nealtw said:


> With the breakers turned on you should have 120 volts between black and white and 120 volts between red and white.
> 
> If you are sure that your wiring is as said, this is not the first box, confirm that there is a red wire to one of the breakers.
> Look in the switch box for a red wire.


 

I have only one breaker that has a red wire coming from it screw. It's a 30 amp connected to another 30 amp (labeled 9 -11) by on/off handle. According to my records, the dryer outlet is on that breaker.


----------



## eharvey650

I might add that the dryer works just fine. Been using it throughout this ordeal with the upstairs lights.


----------



## nealtw

Okay then we are back to the beginning.
So only one of these breaker is for this circuit. 
It would look like power is coming from the switch box to the light box and feeds the other 3 blacks, and the red is only the switch as was suggested earlier.
So how many cables are in the switch box. and is there a red one there.

Now we do not know which is the first box, we might know the switch comes before a bunch of other stuff.


----------



## nealtw

Have you had a problem with critters in the attic or walls?


----------



## Snoonyb

See post #13.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> See post #13.



You might be right about the switch leg but he does not have power at the light box,,, I think.


----------



## Snoonyb

Correct, except he had previously stated a presence of voltage with the proximity tester, which he may have been reading that from the red conductor, and until he uncouples the conductors mentioned in post #13 and uses his VOM to find the hot, "TWISTS" the conductors back together, we are pretty much at a standstill.


----------



## afjes_2016

One question. Do yo have power at the light box at any of the wires? If not, then your problem is not the light box.


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> Correct, except he had previously stated a presence of voltage with the proximity tester, which he may have been reading that from the red conductor, and until he uncouples the conductors mentioned in post #13 and uses his VOM to find the hot, "TWISTS" the conductors back together, we are pretty much at a standstill.



He said, it seams it is coming in there, but he didn't say he had power there. 
I took that to mean there were lot's of wires there.


----------



## Snoonyb

I presumed he had continued with the proximity tester, for him to conclude that it appeared to be the entrance point for distribution, the next stop after the breaker.

As in a point of distribution, where "stuffed", as opposed to "twisted" conductors in a wirenut have a higher probability of becoming loose and displaying the failure he's experiencing.


----------



## afjes_2016

I feel unless he confirms one way or the other that he does have power in the light box fixture we are just beating a dead horse at this point.

Proximity testers are really only good to let me know for sure there is no power in a device box etc if power exists after I shut off a breaker to trouble shoot or do other work. I always use my meter after that. 

eharvey650 do you have some type of a meter to use other than a proximity tester?


----------



## Snoonyb

From post #15;"I rechecked all the breakers and they all are reading between 122.7 to 123.3 volts at the box."


----------



## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> I presumed he had continued with the proximity tester, for him to conclude that it appeared to be the entrance point for distribution, the next stop after the breaker.
> 
> As in a point of distribution, where "stuffed", as opposed to "twisted" conductors in a wirenut have a higher probability of becoming loose and displaying the failure he's experiencing.



See the last line in post 25


----------



## Snoonyb

Asked and answered.


----------



## afjes_2016

> Can someone explain to me how to properly test this box and all its wires?


This is the last line in the message.

I believe he was told he needs a DMM = digital multi meter - to start with other than just the proximity tester.

But if his proximity tester is not even picking up any type of power he does not have to perform any tests.

In his replies though he mentioned he received some type of power coming from the fixture box with his proximity tester. 

He is also mixing terminology. 

If he does remove any wire nuts from the light fixture box he needs to be sure he does not remove wires from the bundle. He could have a real mess on his hands at that point trying to reconstruct what goes where.

If no power for sure at light fixture box then that is not the issue.


----------



## nealtw

Was he told to tighten the screws at the breaker box?


----------



## eharvey650

afjes_2016 said:


> eharvey650: Your use of terminology my be confusing some of us which is fine. Now that you have stated your knowledge level we know a little better how to word our answers. You use the term "conduit". Without me having to re-read all your responses to be specific lets start with the correct termonology first. This will help. What do you mean by conduit? Are the wires (individual conductors) within a "pipe" we will call it now whether it be metal or plastic PVC, metal sleeve? A Romex is a set of conductors within a sheath outter layer and within are individual conductors each having its own insulation (except for ground most times). Let's not confuse cables with wires with conduit etc. You can call a romex a cable, the conductors inside are just that conductors or wires. Some cities and towns require conduit to be used in residential homes so it is not uncommon but not in many places. I think Chicago is one of them. However if it is conduit keep in mind that the electrician wiring did not have to use a specific color conductor when running the wires within the conduit where as if it is a manufactured romex cable the colors are normally standard. First, is it a conduit or Romex.
> 
> Here is said
> "The red wire is going to the light fixture. And a 6 inch section of black wire is tied in with the 4 white wires at the wire nut, and that black wire then connects to the light fixture. "
> 
> It seems that they used black wire as a jumper from the neutral (white wires) to the light which should be connected to the white wire of the light fixture. They should have use white. The red wire going to the fixture I would assume is connected to the black wire of the light fixture. How many wires (conductors) are coming from the light fixture itself?
> 
> And does the light fixture have a fan. If so is there a separate switch you use to turn on the fan only?


 

My apology for the incorrect term used to describe what I'm seeing. I guess Romex is the term I should have used. There's four Romex entering the ceiling box. 

To answer a previous question:There is NO ceiling fan assembly with the ceiling light. 

To answer another question: It's a three light bulb ceiling light. It has a black and a white wire from each light socket on the assy. The red wire from the Romex is connected to black wires from the light assy. And white wires from the light assy is connected to that short piece of black wire that is connected at the wire nut to the white wires from the Romex.


----------



## eharvey650

afjes_2016 said:


> This is the last line in the message.
> 
> I believe he was told he needs a DMM = digital multi meter - to start with other than just the proximity tester.
> 
> But if his proximity tester is not even picking up any type of power he does not have to perform any tests.
> 
> In his replies though he mentioned he received some type of power coming from the fixture box with his proximity tester.
> 
> He is also mixing terminology.


 
I do have a DMM. It's how I got my voltage readings at the breakers. Initially I was checking all the switch boxes with what I call a non-contact voltage detector. I see you used the term proximity tester. I guess they sell them using both terms. In any event, even with the DMM I find no voltage at the light box or at the switch box.


----------



## nealtw

Home work.
You said you had the 120 volts from each of the breakers in question.
1 I would like you to turn off the main and attempt to tighten screws on the breakers and at the buss where the whites are

2. Can you do a rough sketch of the house and draw in the fixtures you think are part of the circuit including the location of the breaker box.

Mark each fixture with O, L, S  Outlet, light, switch and mark each of those with how many cables in each.
eg L4.
Take a photo of that sketch and post it.


----------



## nealtw

I haven't used one but I think this is the answer.
It puts a noise on the wire and the tracker allows you to follow the line from outside the wall and see where it goes and where it stops, pointing at the problem.
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00279JLBQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Don't know if you can rent one.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJGqh-XJVpk[/ame]


----------



## afjes_2016

eharvey650: Please see post #10 where I say this --



> Even though you do not have GFCI receptacles in the bathroom please  check other areas of the house. I have found some homes that have GFCI  protection in the bathroom by a GFCI in a garage or basement. Yes, this  is not code but this does happen. Find all GFCIs in your home first, be  sure they are all reset and have power. Doing this first will be far  faster and easier in troubleshooting.


You replied that there are no GFCI receptacles in the bathroom. But please by all means just humor me and double check the entire house. Look everywhere, in the basement too, even behind boxes, shelves etc, outside receptacles if you have any (be sure there is not one hidden behind any shrubs), kitchen, if you have another bathroom in the house check there, even right where your breaker panel is (one customer of mine had one there protecting his bathroom). 85% of the time I find a GFCI tripped somewhere in the home where it was least expected to be. It will take you maybe 20 minutes to look everywhere. Don't miss any wall. Even if you have a garage. This could solve your problem quicker and save you a lot of frustration. Some that I have found in a persons home they did not even know they had and they lived in the home for years.

If you do find any GFCIs please tell us how many and where they are in the home.


----------



## Snoonyb

Is there an accessible attic above the bathroom?


----------



## bud16415

afjes_2016 said:


> eharvey650: Please see post #10 where I say this --
> 
> You replied that there are no GFCI receptacles in the bathroom. But please by all means just humor me and double check the entire house. Look everywhere, in the basement too, even behind boxes, shelves etc, outside receptacles if you have any (be sure there is not one hidden behind any shrubs), kitchen, if you have another bathroom in the house check there, even right where your breaker panel is (one customer of mine had one there protecting his bathroom). 85% of the time I find a GFCI tripped somewhere in the home where it was least expected to be. It will take you maybe 20 minutes to look everywhere. Don't miss any wall. Even if you have a garage. This could solve your problem quicker and save you a lot of frustration. Some that I have found in a persons home they did not even know they had and they lived in the home for years.
> 
> If you do find any GFCIs please tell us how many and where they are in the home.



My house was newly rewired and upgraded prior to us buying it a couple years ago. They did exactly as you mentioned and mounted a GFCI about two feet from the main panel. They then ran all the basement lighting off that outlet. I had a trip on it and the four basement lights went out and it drove me nuts for about an hour until it dawned on me to reset it. I dont know if this is now the common way to get a basement lighting circuit protected?


----------



## afjes_2016

bud16415:

NEC basically stipulates (when referring to "code" there are two to follow usually, the NEC and the local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction). The NEC requires an "unfinished" basement to GFCI protection of the receptacles. I don't believe it states the lights must also be protected. But I just finished a large renovation and my customer requested that there be only one circuit in the basement (he was selling the house) so I put the lights on the same circuit. Started with a large 4x4 metal deep box, put a GFCI in it and ran to the rest of the receptacles and lights from there. A bit of an inconvenience if you trip the GFCI though, have to go searching for it in the dark.

I always put a GFCI (dedicated) at the panel also.

I have seen some crazy wiring where someone takes one GFCI and protects bathrooms, outdoor receptacles and basement receptacles with one. Against code and a pain.

A contractor I work for here and there called me one day and had me come to his job site. He said they lost power in the garage and part of the house. Very large house. They were renovating one of the bays of the garage for a room. When I got there he told me he had his guy check the entire house for a GFCI as I had suggested he do when I spoke to him on the phone prior. When I got there it took me 4 minutes to find the culprit. A tripped GFCI behind a very large cabinet in the garage. His guy said the cabinet was too large to move so he did not look behind it to see if one was there. So the guy spent 3 hours looking for the problem elsewhere. It took me 4 minutes. That is why I say you have to look everywhere. His guy just did not want to move the cabinet (too lazy).


----------



## nealtw

afjes_2016 said:


> bud16415:
> 
> NEC basically stipulates (when referring to "code" there are two to follow usually, the NEC and the local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction). The NEC requires an "unfinished" basement to GFCI protection of the receptacles. I don't believe it states the lights must also be protected. But I just finished a large renovation and my customer requested that there be only one circuit in the basement (he was selling the house) so I put the lights on the same circuit. Started with a large 4x4 metal deep box, put a GFCI in it and ran to the rest of the receptacles and lights from there. A bit of an inconvenience if you trip the GFCI though, have to go searching for it in the dark.
> 
> I always put a GFCI (dedicated) at the panel also.
> 
> I have seen some crazy wiring where someone takes one GFCI and protects bathrooms, outdoor receptacles and basement receptacles with one. Against code and a pain.
> 
> A contractor I work for here and there called me one day and had me come to his job site. He said they lost power in the garage and part of the house. Very large house. They were renovating one of the bays of the garage for a room. When I got there he told me he had his guy check the entire house for a GFCI as I had suggested he do when I spoke to him on the phone prior. When I got there it took me 4 minutes to find the culprit. A tripped GFCI behind a very large cabinet in the garage. His guy said the cabinet was too large to move so he did not look behind it to see if one was there. So the guy spent 3 hours looking for the problem elsewhere. It took me 4 minutes. That is why I say you have to look everywhere. His guy just did not want to move the cabinet (too lazy).



You could have wired the lights off the line side and the outlets off the load side.:nono:


----------



## afjes_2016

nealtw said:


> You could have wired the lights off the line side and the outlets off the load side.:nono:



Yes. that is true. It was a very large basement. Even if I ran one circuit and branched off of a 4x4 jbox GFCI, lights from line and receptacles from load it would have required more Romex as running from the jbox to the lights and again to the receptacles. He did not want to add the extra cost of labor and materials. We talked about that several times before he made his decision. Access was very difficult at times in the way of routing the lines in the basement. There were 5 different sections/rooms.

We also considered running the one circuit to the jbox and then going to the lights and receptacles and using GFCI in each receptacle location. But again involved the cost of a GFCI at each location. This way I only used one GFCI. I gave him the options, he made the decision.


----------



## afjes_2016

eHarvey650:

My curiosity is up. Were you able to solve this issue? If so what was the culprit? 

If not did you look further for hidden GFCI receptacles in the house?

Any update would be good.


----------



## KULTULZ

afjes_2016 said:


> I agree with some others that have suggested this; since there is a bathroom involved please be sure (that if there is a GFCI receptacle in the bathroom), that the GFCI did not trip. Although a circuit for a bathroom may not go to any other room except for another bathroom does not mean someone did not do this. Some electricians do put the bathroom lights on the GFCI. I for one does when my customer requests it. I usually give them the option when wiring. Yes, putting the lights on a gfci may end you up in the dark if it trips but also when coming out of the shower or washing your hands and flipping the light switch you could get a shock, so therefore GFCI is handy in that case. Personal preference..



...hmm...

On a learning curve here so please bear with me...

So it is possible for current to ground through a toggle swith if the user is around water? In this case, all bathroom lights should also be GFCI protected? I would put them on a separate circuit but it is a good idea, right?

Same with a kitchen sink. While now a DW and/or GD must be on separate GFCI circuits (old code wasn't) the kitchen sink overhead light circuit doesn't have to be.

 To put them on a separate GFCI circuit would be a good idea if the overhead light switch is at the kitchen sink...


----------



## afjes_2016

KULTULZ said:


> ...hmm...
> 
> On a learning curve here so please bear with me...
> 
> So it is possible for current to ground through a toggle swith if the user is around water? In this case, all bathroom lights should also be GFCI protected? I would put them on a separate circuit but it is a good idea, right?
> 
> Same with a kitchen sink. While now a DW and/or GD must be on separate GFCI circuits (old code wasn't) the kitchen sink overhead light circuit doesn't have to be.
> 
> To put them on a separate GFCI circuit would be a good idea if the overhead light switch is at the kitchen sink...



It really is personal preference to put lights in a bathroom on GFCI or switches for a light near on a kitchen sink on a GFCI.  Neither is required. However as far as a kitchen light even over the sink it just can't be on the same circuit as the counter top GFCI or one of the other small appliance circuits.

When flipping on/off  light switch in a bathroom; well yes, I guess if you just got out of the shower or just finished washing your hands there may be enough water on your hands (before drying off) to make a connection. Some would say no, some yes. The customer has the option that I normally propose. This is done while I review the number of circuits they want for the bathroom. Some want as many as 4 different circuits in a bathroom (master bath for example). Maybe one for a combination -ceiling light/fan/heater, 3 for receptacles plus lights (some blow dryers use as much as 1,600 watts maybe more) etc etc etc; some bathrooms are very large and he might want to blow dry his hair while her curling iron is heating up and she at the same time is using her hair dryer. It really depends on the customer and what they want. I give them the choice and let them decide from there.

As far as the kitchen is concern (counter top receptacles) this again is up to the customer. The more circuits the better off they are. I usually explain what standard appliances draw in the way of power and then go from there. I usually alternate my circuits across the counter top also so if for any reason one circuit has a problem down the line in the future (a dead short etc) they don't have to move all their appliances to one end of the kitchen counter until they can get an electrician in to find the problem.


----------



## Kabris

The only components to a light toggle switch assembly that could potentially become energized is the cover plate screws/metal cover if a metal box is used and no equipment grounding conductor is connected. If these conditions are present at a switch box I would absolutely recommend ground fault protection, or running an equipment grounding conductor.


----------



## nealtw

KULTULZ said:


> ...hmm...
> 
> On a learning curve here so please bear with me...
> 
> So it is possible for current to ground through a toggle swith if the user is around water? In this case, all bathroom lights should also be GFCI protected? I would put them on a separate circuit but it is a good idea, right?
> 
> Same with a kitchen sink. While now a DW and/or GD must be on separate GFCI circuits (old code wasn't) the kitchen sink overhead light circuit doesn't have to be.
> 
> To put them on a separate GFCI circuit would be a good idea if the overhead light switch is at the kitchen sink...



I modern bathroom with with all plumbing in plastic pipe, that water you are standing in has to some how lead to the ground at the outlet or switch box.


----------



## afjes_2016

nealtw said:


> I modern bathroom with with all plumbing in plastic pipe, that water you are standing in has to some how lead to the ground at the outlet or switch box.



That is true, however there are other ways there could be a problem. Someone standing in the shower, decides it is too dark, leans out of the shower and reaches for the light switch to turn on the bathroom lights (body still in shower, hand on switch). A child washing their hands at the sink, one hand in the water, other hand soaking wet reaching for the light switch. Chances are slim but the added protection some people like. It does not cost much more to run the wires that way and as I said I give them the option. Yes there are codes as to how far a light switch must be from the shower but even in my house, built many years ago the two light switches and receptacle are right outside the shower curtain. Poor planning.


----------



## nealtw

afjes_2016 said:


> That is true, however there are other ways there could be a problem. Someone standing in the shower, decides it is too dark, leans out of the shower and reaches for the light switch to turn on the bathroom lights (body still in shower, hand on switch). A child washing their hands at the sink, one hand in the water, other hand soaking wet reaching for the light switch. Chances are slim but the added protection some people like. It does not cost much more to run the wires that way and as I said I give them the option. Yes there are codes as to how far a light switch must be from the shower but even in my house, built many years ago the two light switches and receptacle are right outside the shower curtain. Poor planning.



All I am saying is if all the plumbing is plastic and you reach for that light switch from the shower, the only ground is the screw on the switch plate, and the lights are not usually on a gfci. 

I do know all about using tools in the rain, having some of the power go thru the hand and never tripping a ground fault. That likely meant there was a problem with the ground in one of the cords but these things are supposed to help something when there is no ground involved as in a a two wire system.


----------



## afjes_2016

nealtw said:


> All I am saying is if all the plumbing is plastic and you reach for that light switch from the shower, the only ground is the screw on the switch plate, and the lights are not usually on a gfci.
> 
> I do know all about using tools in the rain, having some of the power go thru the hand and never tripping a ground fault. That likely meant there was a problem with the ground in one of the cords but these things are supposed to help something when there is no ground involved as in a a two wire system.



As I said it is mainly personal preference. Sometimes the thought of extra safety is satisfying enough for some. There are many ways things can happen.

Most of the newer power hand tools are double insulated now. That is why they do not have a ground prong on their plug. But having two extension cords connected together and laying on the ground in the rain and reaching to disconnect/connect them there is a chance of getting hit. When ever I use power tools and if it is even damp outside I use one of these; inline GFCI. Or something similar.


----------



## nealtw

afjes_2016 said:


> As I said it is mainly personal preference. Sometimes the thought of extra safety is satisfying enough for some. There are many ways things can happen.
> 
> Most of the newer power hand tools are double insulated now. That is why they do not have a ground prong on their plug. But having two extension cords connected together and laying on the ground in the rain and reaching to disconnect/connect them there is a chance of getting hit. When ever I use power tools and if it is even damp outside I use one of these; inline GFCI. Or something similar.



The only time we ever had a gfci pop was when the cord connection got in the mud or water, fill the female with wd40, and that is no longer a problem.
Drop a double insulated tool in the water and it will pop the breaker before the gfci.

Good ideal in the kitchen because you could touch ground at the stove or fridge, garberator, range hood or and other appliance with a three prong plug.
But the bathroom, not so much.


----------



## Marsel

Deff a loose connection or burned wire in that circuit.  Test the wire continnuty. If you didnt fixed it yet


----------

