# HELP! - new wiring for garage



## medwar (Jul 28, 2015)

I have a detached garage with remnants of knob-and-tube that I would like to rewire. There is a newer NM line coming out of the attic running exposed to the garage that has been cut at the house. The stub that has been taped off is dead according to my voltage sensor. There is a working motion sensor light near the stubbed NM.

At the house - there is a panel by the meter in the crawl space with only one 15-amp breaker. I cannot tell what it services  as nothing seems to die when I kill it. It looks like this:




There is another panel in the house with individual breakers.  The main breaker for all is only 40-amps. The motion sensor light is on a 15-amp breaker along with the lights for several rooms.  There is a free 40-amp and 15-amp breaker.

Only one receptacle in the house appears to be grounded (how is that?).

I would like to tear out the old knob-and-tube in the garage and put in several interior receptacles, one exterior receptacle, two interior lights, and one exterior light. 

Questions:

1) Can I just extend a line from the live motion sensor (on the 15 amp breaker) at the side of the house to serve the garage?  If that is not big enough  how do I tap the unused 40-amp breaker?

2) I imagine I should use conduit to bring the line to the garage below-grade  is PVC ok for that?

3) I would like to put in GFCI receptacles that are grounded. Is it possible to ground the garage if the rest of the house isnt grounded? How do I do that?

4) What is the small 15-amp breaker in the crawl-space? Am I safe to work on the house if the main breaker is off on the interior panel

Thank you!!


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## CallMeVilla (Jul 28, 2015)

Oh boy .... so many issues.  I will tackle the undergrounding and let my buddies chime in on the rest.  Needless to say, you have capacity issues and the need for grounding.  But, if you want to run a line to the out building, here is a good primer on what and how ...

http://www.familyhandyman.com/electrical/wiring/how-to-bury-underground-cable/view-all#step1

If you live in a freeze-thaw area, the depth and nature of your underground line matters.  Your line feed (hot line) matters.  Yes, in theory, you could use the motion light as your source but it might be better to upgrade your service (40A ???)  Modern homes are running 200A at the main so you are way under the typical home.

Keep researching and learning before you do anything half-way.  This is a great opportunity to begin the proper upgrading.


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## nealtw (Jul 28, 2015)

The breaker by the meter, Can you just trace the cables coming and going to see what might be going on.
The free 40 amp breaker would be for a stove and you wouldn't want to use that for any lighting.
The 15 amp line should carry the lights you want but you could be getting to the limit of thwe 40 amp main.
GFCIs will work without ground.
I too think you should be looking at a new service for the whole house.


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## slownsteady (Jul 28, 2015)

I think step one is to map your existing wiring so that you know what's on every breaker and which breaker is feeding which (possibly). Are you sure you found the main panel? You could be looking at a sub-panel.


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## medwar (Jul 28, 2015)

Thanks y'all - I really appreciate it. Two things I should clarify:

1- (at the risk of getting laughed out of the forum) Im renting this house. The landlord says he'll get "his guy" to come look at it - but thats been in the works for some time now and I would like to get it done (and he said he would cover all materials needed). 

2- I plan to run some big tools in the garage (table saw, etc). So far I have run them off the kitchen outlets with no problem. 

I have always wanted to learn the basics - and this seems like it could be an opportunity. If not I will forget it. 

So: here is the pic of the in-house panel:



#1(15amp) is lights for 5 rooms and exterior and outlets for 2 beds.
#2 (30 amp) is outlets for kitchen, bath and dining.
#3 (20 amp) is lights and outlets for living and 1 bed.

Here is the panel in the crawl space by the meter:



I think there is the supply coming from the box marked "120V main" going through the meter to the panel, and then going to the box marked "120V house". Its only a 15 amp breaker - and when I kill it nothing seems to happen in the house....... What is this breaker for?? 

What do you think of this plan: get a professional to tap the unused 40amp breaker at the house panel (is that possible?) - and run that to a sub panel in the garage (where I can do the receptacles/ lights). 


Thank you guys very much


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## nealtw (Jul 28, 2015)

This has been upgraded (loose term) sorta, I would be suspect of the landlords guy .
It dosn't sound like you know enough to get into it, no offence. Get your own guy to look at it. The 30 amp breaker is a deffinate no no in my book and 20Amp is questionable. The kitchen circuit may run your tools but the breaker won't kick out before the fire starts.


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## slownsteady (Jul 28, 2015)

I'll let the electrical guys confirm this (or not), but if you have a Jbox before the meter, then what's keeping somebody from bypassing the meter? Doesn't sound kosher.


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## nealtw (Jul 28, 2015)

slownsteady said:


> I'll let the electrical guys confirm this (or not), but if you have a Jbox before the meter, then what's keeping somebody from bypassing the meter? Doesn't sound kosher.



It looks to me like a homeowner could get his hands on unfused wired way to easy.


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## medwar (Jul 29, 2015)

Thanks everyone. My weekend goal is no longer getting power to the garage - but getting the landlord to fix the house......

So california law says  [the rental unit must "substantially comply" with building and housing code standards that materially affect tenants' health and safety].

Is this an obvious case of "substantial" non-compliance or a gray area? We have been living for a couple months now without any fire........

I appreciate all your help.


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## slownsteady (Jul 29, 2015)

Absolutely should take care of the house first. If you can find the code for electrical and point out specific violations to the landlord, he has got to do something.


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## Kabris (Jul 29, 2015)

30 amp for kitchen outlets is a dangerous violation of code. Basically your wire will melt/catch fire before that breaker trips (probably why you could run your tools so easily). I also find it strange that your panel only has 120 volts in it. Are you sure that 40 amp you think is a spare isn't really the 2nd leg of the 120/240 (and the breaker wasn't permanently joined)?  If that is the case, then that breaker setup is also a code violation. And with that meter setup, what is that?!!  The landlord's guy couldn't fork over $20 for a meter enclosure and some connectors to make it remotely close to being Code? That deserves to go up on the Electrical Wall of Shame. I suspect the landlord's guy is one of those jack of all trades, master of none, because no electrician would ever do that. It certainly wasn't completed in a neat and workmanlike manner, that's for sure.


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## nealtw (Jul 29, 2015)

If the landlords guy dosn't think all this is a problem, you can talk to the inspectors your self.


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## slownsteady (Jul 29, 2015)

The fine line that you're going to have to find is the "political" one. How to stay on the good (or least the fair side) of your landlord, while at the same time getting him to give you decent service. it sucks when the relationship becomes adversarial.


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## Kabris (Jul 30, 2015)

slownsteady said:


> The fine line that you're going to have to find is the "political" one. How to stay on the good (or least the fair side) of your landlord, while at the same time getting him to give you decent service. it sucks when the relationship becomes adversarial.




I agree, don't rant like I did. I get worked up when I see things like that.  I am an electrician and when I see these things I do not take them lightly.  Safety and safeguarding of persons and property is the #1 intent of the NEC, and all electricians work to abide by it.


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## bud16415 (Jul 30, 2015)

I don&#8217;t know where the OP lives but here we are serviced and buy our power from Penelec and some of our neighbors belong to a rural co-op. Both of these the first time they came to read the meter if it even got that far would call this in and they would come out and cut power at the pole. They would leave you a note and a number to call and when you got it fixed they would inspect it and turn you back on. You might be able to slide something past them inside the home but a meter without a box never. 

It makes me wonder if the meter is feed off of someone else and its there for the landlord to keep track of the power.


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## frodo (Jul 30, 2015)

looks to me like you need a 200 amp service panel with meter and a TOTAL rewire of the house

your wireing  has code violations that are dangerous.

I am surprised the house has not burned up already


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## slownsteady (Jul 30, 2015)

My first thought is an anonymous call to the power Co. But when they cut the power, Medwar will be left powerless (pun sort of intended).


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## nealtw (Jul 30, 2015)

Diplomacy is key, inspectors can red flag it.


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## inspectorD (Jul 30, 2015)

nealtw said:


> Diplomacy is key, inspectors can red flag it.



Whoa..waht do I gotta do now....  red flags...huh
:rofl:


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## nealtw (Jul 30, 2015)

inspectorD said:


> Whoa..waht do I gotta do now....  red flags...huh
> :rofl:



Red flagged house is a tirm used here when the city says no-one can live in a house until repairs are made.:help:


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## medwar (Jul 30, 2015)

So my goal right now is to understand just how dangerous this house is - i.e if the landlord does not want to fix it do we want to move out? Our rental market is stupid where we live - over 100 applications on every opening. 

What is the risk with these two funky panels?

As I understand it one big risk is the high current through those large breakers. I dont know what gauge wire is connected to the 30 and 20 amp breakers - but I suspect it is old KT - because that is what is exposed in the attic. Is there another way to tell? Is the risk just fire or is there an elevated risk of electrocution somehow? The last family supposedly lived here for 30 years with no accidents.

The 30amp breaker is for the kitchen outlets which includes a gas heater, fridge, etc. Is that still overkill? Is it still dangerous regardless of what the supply wire is? 

The KT in the attic is wired with the supply and return separate. I found a new charming detail up there - curious what y'all opinion is. Looks like they spliced into the old knob-and-tube. I know nothing of these things - but it looks like the splice connects the hot to the neutral and vice-versa. From the box the three lines go to motion sensor lights. 







Again - I appreciate all the wisdom you guys offer.


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## medwar (Jul 31, 2015)

Kabris - if that was the case - would either of those 40amp breakers kill the house? Right now only the one marked "main" will.


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## nealtw (Jul 31, 2015)

There is so mutch wrong here, no one should tell you what can be done. Actually we havn't seen anything that is right here.


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## frodo (Jul 31, 2015)

when talking has done no good




do not know what state you live in...

google ...renters rights in ,,,,your state//  landlord/tenant law

look up the procedure to compel the landlord to fix the property

also look up, how to make he landlord pay for your accommodations while work is in process
you will still owe your rent, but he will have to pick up any extra expense for your lodging

be advised..after work is complete..when your lease is up..your rent will go up and/or  he is going to kick you ouy

again,,look at the tenant/landlord laws for your town

my advice,  communicate by registered letter only, sue him to fix the house


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## Kabris (Jul 31, 2015)

medwar said:


> Kabris - if that was the case - would either of those 40amp breakers kill the house? Right now only the one marked "main" will.




If your panel is only being fed with 120 volts, then the breaker marked Main will kill all the branch circuits in that panel, but the line coming into that breaker will still be live. Just everything going out will be dead. My guess is that the other 40 amp breaker was left there as a spare on purpose in case there is ever a need for a 240 volt circuit in your place. If there is ever 240 volts, the 2-pole breaker has to be permanently joined as per Code.

As far as the 30 amp for kitchen, the NEC requires at least 10 gauge copper wire for the entirety of that branch circuit. Even if 10 gauge is coming out of that breaker, who's to say that after the first splice, only 12 gauge or 14 gauge is coming off of that? Then you could potentially have 30 amps passing through a dangerously undersized wire. And besides, your standard 120 volt residential outlet is only rated for 15-20 amps. So 30 amps flowing through those devices could lead to some potentially dangerous issues.

And from your most recent pictures, it looks as if there was a lot of splicing to knob and tube there. All of that has no ground. To Code, when a ground is not present, a GFCI device is required at the very least.


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## bud16415 (Jul 31, 2015)

Back in the day of knob and tube wiring that is the way splices were made. With the common and hot leg separated by a foot or more of air they felt safe in doing that. The splices were a fancy deal with so many tight wraps of the wire and then soldered and then two different types of tape one of them was a butyl rubber and a friction tape. I have seen Knob and tube left in place at times but never extended with new wire branching out from it. In your case it isn&#8217;t hidden in a finished wall or someplace hard to get at so why wouldn&#8217;t they have replaced it. All these additions are clearly done by a handyman type guy or the landlord and done as quick and cheap as possible. 

I agree with Kabris the single worst thing you have is the 30a breaker feeding the kitchen and secondly lack of any kind of GFCI or safety ground. 

I don&#8217;t think you should burn any bridges and be out looking for another place to live until you have to, but also you need to be able to sleep at night without worry of harm coming to you or your family. With this setup I wouldn&#8217;t want any breaker higher than 15a in that panel. 

Keep in mind all of this is not right but some things will make it safer if you can&#8217;t get the landlord to go along with bringing it to code. 

I would start with changing out the 20a and 30a breakers with 15a breakers if you start popping them right and left it will be clear you need more runs and divide up the circuits. At 15a I would personally sleep a lot better. If you find that 15a breakers work ok and don&#8217;t trip then I would change out the outlets with GFCI&#8217;s or at least the ones that need to be GFCI by code and are in high risk areas like kitchen and bath. The other thing I would do is if you have kids around or anyone that might access that crawl space is secure access to that area. 

Being as this is a rental and you have limited skills in this area please proceed with caution and or get some help from someone better versed in this. Ideally you go talk to the landlord and he says you are right I&#8217;m going to rewire the whole place. But somehow I don&#8217;t see that happening and you have to weigh what you are getting for your money and how much you want to make it safe for yourself and family. If there comes a time when you plan on moving the very last thing I would do is turn him in because the next tenant might not be as wise as you and seek help with what to do.


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## medwar (Jul 31, 2015)

Thanks y'all. I will let you know how it goes....


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## slownsteady (Jul 31, 2015)

Bud is right on target as usual. There are a few low cost and relatively easy things to do to make it safer (safer and safe are two different things). But right at the top of the list is look for a new place. if the landlord is taking chances with electricity, everything else is suspect to cheap shortcuts.
As I understand it, there are GFCI breakers. One of the pros can tell you if the main breaker can be changed for a GFCI, and if that would cover the whole house. If not, replacing outlets with GFCI outlets, as bud said, is something you can do yourself. Be prepared to cover the cost yourself, then present a bill for your expenses to the landlord. Explain that you *know* these safety upgrades were necessary. If he's smart he'll reimburse you and it will start a dialogue on the rest of the house.


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## bud16415 (Jul 31, 2015)

A GFCI isn&#8217;t going to help with the house burning down if you are pulling 30a thru a wire that&#8217;s only good for 20a. The GFCI won&#8217;t know there is any problem until some current goes to ground. They are just a good idea anyplace or all places for that matter where there is a chance of someone getting shocked. Places where there could be good paths to ground are most important like sinks and pools and water. 

The circuit like a chain will fail at its weakest link. In the case of fuses and breakers you want that device to be the weakest link. If a wire can handle 20a max then the fuse should be lower than that like 15a.


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## slownsteady (Aug 1, 2015)

I wasn't suggesting the GFCI part of the problem was the only fix, but I saw it as an easy way into the problems - and an easy way into the dialogue with the landlord. Thanks for making that clear.


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## Kabris (Aug 1, 2015)

Bud is right about trying to swap out the breakers (most important is kitchen) and see if they hold. Single pole 15 and 20 amp breakers cost $5 or so at a Home Depot or Lowes, but you have to make sure you have a type that's compatible with your panel. If you don't feel comfortable attempting this yourself, then don't do it. Get in contact with an electrician or your landlord.

If they don't hold then it is apparent you need new circuits run and further evidence your landlord was cutting corners. The absolute worst thing you can do is simply put in a larger breaker when a breaker keeps tripping. The breaker is there solely to protect the wire, and if it's tripping, then it is doing its job period.

You're going to have to investigate to see what size wire is feeding things, but since you think you have a bit of knob and tube I would recommend to either demo the knob and tube altogether and replace with new romex with ground, or put it in a 15 amp breaker and GFCI protect it. That wire is very old/brittle and has lasted the test of time thus far, so the last thing you want to do is overload it. 

I hate knob and tube, and always recommend to demo it if possible. It is very difficult to troubleshoot and work with. The electricians who installed it nearly 100 years ago had a much different mindset than today's electricians. Today's electricians generally start all of their branch circuits in the basement Main and "branch" them out to the rest of the house from there (a centralized hub at the Main). The electricians back then would have a very small Main in the basement, send their knob and tube trunk to the attic, and then branch out to the rest of the house from there. But back then the need for electricity was for lights and just a couple 110 volt outlets. Much different today.


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## frodo (Aug 2, 2015)

true story,  for what its worth.

We had A Laborer working for us,  Darnell,   he had about 6 kids and lived in a shack, 
the Government ,thru some program,  gave him a mobile home. they delivered it.
but it ws his responsibility to level, hook up utilities

he did not level it,  and hooked up the electric using scrap wire from the job.

the trailer burned down, due to faulty wireing.

a government man showed,  assured him they would replace everything that was lost.

OH, By the way, government said..we understand all your records were burned in the fire
understandable
just tell us the name of the licensed electrician who wired the trailer???

Darnell said, "I wired it myself"

Government man said    "Good bye Mr Darnell"


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