# How do I wire these switches?



## Eisenfaust8 (Oct 4, 2016)

I'm working on replacing old switches and outlets in the house and came to a couple of snags. The first is this single switch that controls a ceiling fan (the picture with the switch hanging out of the box). 

As you can see, at the bottom there are two black wires, one wrapped around the terminal screw and then the second is inserted into the hole for that terminal too. Can I just copy that? Is this the end of the circuit? 

Secondly, I was replacing a switch that is one of two controlling a set of outside lights. In the last two pictures, the switch on the bottom is the old one, with the top being the new one I purchased. The old one didn't have a ground but a hole at the top right that said 'common'. I'm guessing I bought the wrong kind of switch for this, as the new one only has two terminals and a green ground screw. I'll just go to HD and find a replica of the old one with a common connection. But can someone explain to me how this type of switch works so I know? 

Thanks


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## nealtw (Oct 4, 2016)

The bigger new switch is a three way, that you would use where 2 switches operate the same light, the top and bottom of the stairs.

Not sure what they are doing with the switch in the wall but best would be to twist those two together with a another 6" wire going to the switch, add a wire nut. Don't mix up the wires.
The extra wire might be a second light or an outlet near by.


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## Snoonyb (Oct 5, 2016)

In the top photo, the switch is a single pole and controls a single run. The two conductors are power and one is a traveler.

When replacing the 3way switches you'll find that the screw pattern will be different on th new, so the conductors connected to the black screws are the important to replicate. The other two are travelers and sometimes you have to swap them around until you get the sequence correct.


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## nealtw (Oct 5, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> In the top photo, the switch is a single pole and controls a single run. The two conductors are power and one is a traveler.
> 
> When replacing the 3way switches you'll find that the screw pattern will be different on th new, so the conductors connected to the black screws are the important to replicate. The other two are travelers and sometimes you have to swap them around until you get the sequence correct.



Really??????


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## Snoonyb (Oct 5, 2016)

Absolutely.


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## nealtw (Oct 5, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Absolutely.



That would be so easy, why would they change to something much more difficult to figure out. May be because you need it to work.:nono:


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## Snoonyb (Oct 5, 2016)

nealtw said:


> That would be so easy, why would they change to something much more difficult to figure out. May be because you need it to work.:nono:



Who is They?


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## nealtw (Oct 5, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Who is They?



They would be the people that make the switch.


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## Snoonyb (Oct 5, 2016)

Were you to familiarize yourself with the presently available 3way switch terminal configuration, you would know that the old 3way switch pictured is different from that that is presently available.


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## nealtw (Oct 5, 2016)

It is what you learn after you know it all that counts.
If you actually knew how they work, you would know just how foolish your statements are.

We are all human and we all say things that are wrong from time to time, the only question left is how deep the hole is when you stop digging.


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## Snoonyb (Oct 5, 2016)

The difference being, you guess and pretend you know.


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## havasu (Oct 5, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> The difference being, you guess and I pretend I know.



Wait, what? :trophy:


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## nealtw (Oct 6, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> The difference being, you guess and pretend you know.



Just pretend I don't know you were referring to the Carter system which hasn't been used since knob and tube wiring. If it were that system there is no way to wire it with a new three way switch because it has only two wires.

Do you think, giving people advice on wiring is good place to pretend.
If it were up to me you would be gone.:down:


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## afjes_2016 (Oct 6, 2016)

Let's identify these switches in sequence of them appearing.
Image #1
Single pole switch. back view

Image #2
Single pole switch (top) front view
3 way switch (bottom) front view

Image #3
Single pole switch (top) back view
3 way switch (bottom) back view

ok, to prevent confusion when saying how many screws there are lets just not include the ground screws.

Image #1-single pole switch. Because we don't know what else is inside the switch box we can conclude several things from this picture.
The single conductor is going back to a light fixture giving it power when the switch is in the on position (or vice-versa). Two conductors, one is power coming into the switch and the other is power going back out to some other device. Or the single conductor is bringing power to the switch and the two conductors are leading to two other lights etc giving them power on or off. There is no way to tell by this picture. BUT-This is in no way a 3 way switch (note the face of it; if there is ON/OFF there is no way it can be a 3 way switch). 
The proper (most recommended way) to wire this switch is not to use the back stab and only the screws (this particular switch, some such as GFCI have a pressure plate where the conductor may be place in the hole and the screw tightened). Also, do not place two individual conductors under one screw. Remove the conductors, twist them together with a short (at least 6" jumper of the same size) and wire nut (proper size) them together then placing the other end of the jumper under the screw

The other switch, 3 way. You must use this type of switch if you are controlling your lights from more than one location. You must match your conductors properly when installing the new switch. Again, lets forget ground screws. On the 3 way you will have one screw that is black. this is your common screw (most important of all the screws on the switch). This is either where the power coming into the switch or goes back to the lights, again, we can't tell at this point but not important. What is important is that the old switch you took out you must match to this switch. That old switch should have had the same type of different colored screw than the other two, more than likely black. The conductor that came out of that screw must go to the black screw on the new 3 way switch.

If in image #2 the top switch is the new one then in fact you purchased the wrong switch. You purchased a single pole switch and need a 3 way switch.

As you asked, here is how a 3 way switch works.



> In the top photo, the switch is a single pole and controls a single run. The two conductors are power and one is a traveler.


This is not correct. Please don't confuse the OP. There are no travelers when referring/wiring a single pole switch, only with 3 and 4 way switches.

Hope this helps you.


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## Snoonyb (Oct 6, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Just pretend I don't know you were referring to the Carter system which hasn't been used since knob and tube wiring. If it were that system there is no way to wire it with a new three way switch because it has only two wires.



There you go again, living in a time before you found utube to correct you.



nealtw said:


> Do you think, giving people advice on wiring is good place to pretend.
> If it were up to me you would be gone.:down:



And then, who would be here to educate you about current and evolving processes, correct your erroneous assumption and blatant misstatements, certainly not the good-ol-boy network I refuse to be a part of.


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## Snoonyb (Oct 6, 2016)

afjes_2016 said:


> This is not correct. Please don't confuse the OP. There are no travelers when referring/wiring a single pole switch, only with 3 and 4 way switches.
> 
> Hope this helps you.



I use the term as a simple way to denote power traveling from switch, to switch to switch with the potential of powering many devices, when you are dealing with novices.


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## afjes_2016 (Oct 6, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> I use the term as a simple way to denote power traveling from switch, to switch to switch with the potential of powering many devices, when you are dealing with novices.



I understand what you are saying but especially when working with a "novice"  in MHO I would suggest using proper terminology to prevent even more confusion on the OPs end.


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## nealtw (Oct 6, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> There you go again, living in a time before you found utube to correct you.
> 
> 
> 
> And then, who would be here to educate you about current and evolving processes, correct your erroneous assumption and blatant misstatements, certainly not the good-ol-boy network I refuse to be a part of.



I have corrected you a few times and we have argued about things, I have backed up my arguments with pictures and or videos found on the interweb, so what.

You would be ignored if you didn't say foolish things that only confuse people coming here for help.

On occasion I do say I am guessing when I answer someone, I have never seen you say I am pretending I know something and will argue for days not to prove anything but just to piss people off.:down:


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## Sparky617 (Oct 6, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> I use the term as a simple way to denote power traveling from switch, to switch to switch with the potential of powering many devices, when you are dealing with novices.



A traveler is a specific wire or wires, those used in 3 and 4-way lighting circuits.  In a single pole switch, you have the hot or line and the leg going to the device or load.

afjes describes the situation perfectly.


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## Eisenfaust8 (Oct 6, 2016)

Thanks, guys. I got everything wired up 

My last question is, aren't these outlets UL approved? If they are, then why the distaste for the backstab vs. screw connections? Aren't they all tested to the same level of dependability?


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## nealtw (Oct 6, 2016)

Eisenfaust8 said:


> Thanks, guys. I got everything wired up
> 
> My last question is, aren't these outlets UL approved? If they are, then why the distaste for the backstab vs. screw connections? Aren't they all tested to the same level of dependability?



I think it is just the number of times they are the problem when something stops working. They are tested for safety not durability.


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## afjes_2016 (Oct 6, 2016)

Eisenfaust8 said:


> Thanks, guys. I got everything wired up
> 
> My last question is, aren't these outlets UL approved? If they are, then why the distaste for the backstab vs. screw connections? Aren't they all tested to the same level of dependability?



"UL" = equals minimum safety standards to be met (by them, the laboratory). Just like NEC (by NFPA). We here give you our suggestions from "field" experience. This is why I "liked" nealtw's reply.

Yes, back stabbing is approved. However, by field experienced persons such as myself (_no, I am by far not an expert!!!!!_) find many times that back stabbing receptacles or switches serve to be an issue in the future. The pressure applied to any electrical connection is the secret to keeping that connection "safe!!". "Loose wires start fires" is what my instructor always preached. It is true too. Many times loose wires will arc and cause heat, failure and or fire in time. When you put a wire in the back-stab location/slot and then push the light switch, receptacle etc back into the box wire tend to move, bend etc. The pressure applied to the piece of metal that holds the wire/conductor in place in a back stab is not sufficient over time to hold a tight connection. It may not fail at that moment but over time may start to slip out of the connection and cause a failure such as no connection or worse, an arcing. It is highly recommended that all conductors be placed under a screw (only one wire per screw) and tightened sufficiently with a proper sized screwdriver.


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## Eisenfaust8 (Oct 6, 2016)

afjes_2016 said:


> "UL" = equals minimum safety standards to be met (by them, the laboratory). Just like NEC (by NFPA). We here give you our suggestions from "field" experience. This is why I "liked" nealtw's reply.
> 
> Yes, back stabbing is approved. However, by field experienced persons such as myself (_no, I am by far not an expert!!!!!_) find many times that back stabbing receptacles or switches serve to be an issue in the future. The pressure applied to any electrical connection is the secret to keeping that connection "safe!!". "Loose wires start fires" is what my instructor always preached. It is true too. Many times loose wires will arc and cause heat, failure and or fire in time. When you put a wire in the back-stab location/slot and then push the light switch, receptacle etc back into the box wire tend to move, bend etc. The pressure applied to the piece of metal that holds the wire/conductor in place in a back stab is not sufficient over time to hold a tight connection. It may not fail at that moment but over time may start to slip out of the connection and cause a failure such as no connection or worse, an arcing. It is highly recommended that all conductors be placed under a screw (only one wire per screw) and tightened sufficiently with a proper sized screwdriver.



Very informative. Thank you!


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## afjes_2016 (Oct 6, 2016)

Eisenfaust8 you are very welcome.


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## Snoonyb (Oct 6, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I have corrected you a few times and we have argued about things, I have backed up my arguments with pictures and or videos found on the interweb, so what.
> 
> You would be ignored if you didn't say foolish things that only confuse people coming here for help.
> 
> On occasion I do say I am guessing when I answer someone, I have never seen you say I am pretending I know something and will argue for days not to prove anything but just to piss people off.:down:



While you have some practical experience and a great deal of knowledge, in very specific areas, everything I post is from practical, self taught hands-on experience, not learned or justified from someone else's internet posting.

And while you thrive on belaboring and stretching a topic past its point of natural expiration, it's boring and I have better ways to spend my time.


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## Snoonyb (Oct 6, 2016)

afjes_2016 said:


> "UL" = equals minimum safety standards to be met (by them, the laboratory). Just like NEC (by NFPA). We here give you our suggestions from "field" experience. This is why I "liked" nealtw's reply.



UL is Underwriters Laboratory.

Products are submitted along with an accompanying statement of performance. Those that meet those performance standards receive an approval.


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## nealtw (Oct 6, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> While you have some practical experience and a great deal of knowledge, in very specific areas, everything I post is from practical, self taught hands-on experience, not learned or justified from someone else's internet posting.
> 
> And while you thrive on belaboring and stretching a topic past its point of natural expiration, it's boring and I have better ways to spend my time.



There you go, there is no right or wrong way there is just your way.
Doing it wrong for a life time is not experience.
You sir have no idea what my experience is but we do know you have no idea about some of the stuff you talk about.


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## afjes_2016 (Oct 6, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> UL is Underwriters Laboratory.
> 
> Products are submitted along with an accompanying statement of performance. Those that meet those performance standards receive an approval.



I am fully aware of that fact. Thus the term "laboratory" in my post. I was simply referring to the fact that just like the NEC (National Electric Code issued by the NFPA on a every three year basis) they give the minimum safety standards for products where as NEC is for application.


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## nealtw (Oct 6, 2016)

afjes_2016 said:


> I am fully aware of that fact. Thus the term "laboratory" in my post. I was simply referring to the fact that just like the NEC (National Electric Code issued by the NFPA on a every three year basis) they give the minimum safety standards for products where as NEC is for application.



You're wasting your time, he just wants to drag crap out as long as he can.


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## Snoonyb (Oct 6, 2016)

afjes_2016 said:


> I am fully aware of that fact. Thus the term "laboratory" in my post. I was simply referring to the fact that just like the NEC (National Electric Code issued by the NFPA on a every three year basis) they give the minimum safety standards for products where as NEC is for application.



Also, there is an implicit requirement that prior to being submitted for use in buildings, products carry specific agency approvals.


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## Snoonyb (Oct 6, 2016)

nealtw said:


> You're wasting your time, he just wants to drag crap out as long as he can.



As evidenced by the difference in the number of my posts, and yours.


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## Snoonyb (Oct 6, 2016)

nealtw said:


> There you go, there is no right or wrong way there is just your way.



As usual, no back-qoute, just another spurious, erroneous assumption.



nealtw said:


> Doing it wrong for a life time is not experience.



Experience is being in practice for over 40yrs and not having, a single, warranty call-back. And I warranty my work for the length of time the original contracting party occupies the building I was tasked to perform the tasks on.



nealtw said:


> You sir have no idea what my experience is but we do know you have no idea about some of the stuff you talk about.



Want to compare resumes?


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## nealtw (Oct 6, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> As usual, no back-qoute, just another spurious, erroneous assumption.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are still at it?:down:


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## Snoonyb (Oct 6, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Are still at it?:down:



Just as I thought.


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## havasu (Oct 6, 2016)

Enough kids. Please go to your corners for a time out.  :nono:


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## nealtw (Oct 6, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Just as I thought.



A  thought is a good idea, you should practice that.


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## oldognewtrick (Oct 7, 2016)

If you guys want to argue how many angles can dance on the head of a pin, take it to private message. I've told you we're here to help folks solve problems not have a drama class. Last warning.


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## bud16415 (Oct 7, 2016)

afjes_2016 said:


> "UL" = equals minimum safety standards to be met (by them, the laboratory). Just like NEC (by NFPA). We here give you our suggestions from "field" experience. This is why I "liked" nealtw's reply.
> 
> Yes, back stabbing is approved. However, by field experienced persons such as myself (_no, I am by far not an expert!!!!!_) find many times that back stabbing receptacles or switches serve to be an issue in the future. The pressure applied to any electrical connection is the secret to keeping that connection "safe!!". "Loose wires start fires" is what my instructor always preached. It is true too. Many times loose wires will arc and cause heat, failure and or fire in time. When you put a wire in the back-stab location/slot and then push the light switch, receptacle etc back into the box wire tend to move, bend etc. The pressure applied to the piece of metal that holds the wire/conductor in place in a back stab is not sufficient over time to hold a tight connection. It may not fail at that moment but over time may start to slip out of the connection and cause a failure such as no connection or worse, an arcing. It is highly recommended that all conductors be placed under a screw (only one wire per screw) and tightened sufficiently with a proper sized screwdriver.



Great answer and I would also add that it is one thing to use the back stab to power the outlet and it is another to use it to continue the circuit down stream. There could be many more outlets fed off this one back stab point and the combined current of all the circuit up to what will trip the breaker will pass thru that friction connection.

Joining the wires with a pigtail and a wire nut is normally considered the best method but that isnt without a chance for a bad connection also if the nut is the wrong size or not tightened properly. Over the years wire nuts have changed a lot also. The old ones were ceramic or plastic and didnt do a great job of pressing all the wires together. 

I do a tight twist and a trim before I put the nut on. I know hardly anyone does that as it takes a minute longer. I was taught in the old days that the wires should be joined on their own well enough to always have a good connection and the nut is extra connection and insulation. Different people wire nut in different ways.


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