# Kitchen Can Lights, How Many?



## thomask (Sep 8, 2010)

We are starting reno on our 1987 era kitchen.  It currently has a track light fixture on ceiling.  We would like to remove track and replace with 4-6 can lights.  Kitchen floor area is 10x10 feet with ceiling approx 9 x 9 feet due to soffits.  How many lights needed?  We do have undercounter lights and one can light already in over the sink. Plan to add two pendants also over bar area.

Thanks for ideas.


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## kok328 (Sep 8, 2010)

There really isn't any rule of thumb for lighting it's more of a personal preference in what you'd like to achieve.
I've got 3 on one side of the kitchen spaced approx. 4-5ft. apart and only one on the other side of the kitchen.  Each set has it's own switch so I can throttle down/up the lights as needed.


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## thomask (Sep 8, 2010)

kok328 said:


> There really isn't any rule of thumb for lighting it's more of a personal preference in what you'd like to achieve.
> I've got 3 on one side of the kitchen spaced approx. 4-5ft. apart and only one on the other side of the kitchen.  Each set has it's own switch so I can throttle down/up the lights as needed.




Thanks kok328

Are your lights 65 watts each? Do you have plenty of light?

My first plan is to add four can lights spaced about 3 feet apart. I will have them on one switch but with a dimmer. There would be 4-65 watt br30 floodlight bulbs  = 260 watts light.
The original overhead box will either get a small decorative ceiling light on separate switch or I will have to patch the ceiling, which is another issue.

BTW Finished trim around two pantry doors this afternoon and looks much improved. That dadgum last carpenter never finished them out.

Hey, that guy was me.


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## kok328 (Sep 9, 2010)

Yes, I have 65W indoor floods in them.  I tried 65W CFL's but, they weren't bright enough so I took them out and put the originals back in.  Seems to be adequate lighting for me.  the bank of 3 lights is over the cooking area and the other light is over the dining table.


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## thomask (Sep 9, 2010)

I agree those CFLs just do not have the same light it seems. 

They also have a tone that makes food look like you are back in an elementary school cafeteria.


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## ohmy (Sep 13, 2010)

At 9' the spread should be about 4' with 6" lights. Its best to overlap alittle and when in doubt go with more light and add a dimmer.


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## thomask (Sep 13, 2010)

ohmy said:


> At 9' the spread should be about 4' with 6" lights. Its best to overlap alittle and when in doubt go with more light and add a dimmer.



ohmy

Do you feel four would work ok? I will be adding a dimmer but the ceiling dimensions are only 8 x 8 feet and I don't want a swiss cheese look if you know what I mean.  How many can be run off one switch?


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## kok328 (Sep 13, 2010)

thomask, no problem running 4 fixtures off one switch.
Formula:  Wattage of fixture time number of fixtures divided by 120 Volts less than or equal to 15 Amps.
So (4) 80Watt fixtures on a 120Volt circuit would be 2.7 Amps on a 15 Amp light switch.
(4*80)/120=2.6666~


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## thomask (Sep 13, 2010)

kok328 said:


> thomask, no problem running 4 fixtures off one switch.
> Formula:  Wattage of fixture time number of fixtures divided by 120 Volts less than or equal to 15 Amps.
> So (4) 80Watt fixtures on a 120Volt circuit would be 2.7 Amps on a 15 Amp light switch.
> (4*80)/120=2.6666~



Thanks kok328

Do you feel 4 cans on a 8x8 foot ceiling is enough or is 5 or 6 better?


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## kok328 (Sep 13, 2010)

4 cans should provide ample lighting, assuming you don't need a greater amount of light for other reasons.
You could go with more and use the dimmer and/or install one in the middle of the room where you said there used to be a fixture.  With the under-counter lights and sink light, you should be fine.  The cans I have are the type you can aim so you can target cooking & eating areas.  You can always add more if you need them.


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## thomask (Oct 15, 2010)

Thanks everyone, wood floor just got down so now I need to start on kitchen.

Moving stove from bar to wall by refer.  

Need to move cabinets also.


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## oldognewtrick (Oct 15, 2010)

thomask said:


> Thanks everyone, wood floor just got down so now I need to start on kitchen.
> 
> Moving stove from bar to wall by refer.
> 
> Need to move cabinets also.



Congrats on the progress, but remember:worthless:


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## thomask (Oct 18, 2010)

old dog/ new trick

will do, standby for some pics, have been in Alaska last week just got home


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## thomask (Nov 15, 2011)

Please excuse me for the delay. Hey this retirement thing is keeping me awful busy.  

Kitchen has really been taking shape here this year and I want to bring you some pics of what has been happening. 

First pic is of kitchen as it was before starting remodel with dark green wallpapper.  Wife did a super job on getting all the paper removed and it gave me motivation to get going. Took her most all day and filled up a large container.  It got a lot brighter all of a sudden!

Discovered two base cabinets had water damage and the boxes had to be replaced.  Used "real wood" this time and got them back nice and solid for new counters. You know that old carpenter never did trim out the pantry doors when he built the place in 87. Wife had a real good talk with him and he finally got off his &%% and did them right. 

You can see the trac lights needing to be replaced with can lights. The old original Jenn Aire had served many years but needed to be replaced with a smooth top. Dishwasher and refer had already been replaced along with water heater. Bar front paneling to be replaced with white bead board.


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## joecaption (Nov 15, 2011)

My kitchen is also small. I brought my guys that work for me a case of  6, 6" can lights (because there cheaper by the case) and told them to install just 4 of them. I came home and they had installed all 6, of them, way to bright and now I have planes circling my house looking for a place to land.
One really important  thing is if there's attic an attic above and no living space you need IC (in contact) air tite cans. If not there's going to be air blowing in and no way to put insulation over them.


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## JTGP (Nov 15, 2011)

Ever thought about LED under cabinet and can lighting?


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## thomask (Nov 15, 2011)

joecaption said:


> My kitchen is also small. I brought my guys that work for me a case of  6, 6" can lights (because there cheaper by the case) and told them to install just 4 of them. /quote]
> 
> Hey Joecaption,
> 
> ...


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## evstarr (Nov 15, 2011)

You expressed a plan to patch the hole where the existing fixture is/was. You cannot bury that box if there are any live circuits running thru it. 
As far as the cans go... I actually like track lighting. If it were me, I would probably put a new track up with more stylish exposed lamp heads on it. Maybe a low voltage with mr16 lamps.  < grins >


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## thomask (Nov 16, 2011)

evstarr said:


> You expressed a plan to patch the hole where the existing fixture is/was. You cannot bury that box if there are any live circuits running thru it.
> 
> Yes evstarr good point.  I will remove the box and then run switched wire to the first can light. Then wire to other cans.
> 
> ...


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## thomask (Nov 20, 2011)

Hey Old Dog: these pics are for you...

We did change plans to not move appliance locations.  we are using original cabinets with new stain and new counters.  All has been painted including ceiling. New floor in kitchen to be some type hard tile. New lights and some type backsplash to come soon.


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## oldognewtrick (Nov 21, 2011)

Good job! We like updates and pics.


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## thomask (Nov 21, 2011)

Thanks OLDOG/NEWTRICK

This thread started out as a electrical question and has progressed as most projects do to include more kitchen pics for you all out there.

With all this work you sure want to have good lighting.

New counter for wet bar, fancy equipment to match seams, remove 24 year old slide in range, built new sink base, new white beadboard for front of stove base.

Has anyone out there installed new hard tile over old tile?

Looking for motivation.... need to to get her done

:beer:


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## thomask (Dec 14, 2011)

Just finished (kinda) the snack bar front bead board and cabinet trim, built shelves for wine bottles and glasses in wet bar.  Just last night installed two hanging lights over the stove with help from my good friend.  Used stove to get centered for placement. Had to get in attic and move feeder wire for lights. This was much easier as a two man job.

Next planned is undercounter lights and then remove old track lights for new cans. Bought a hole saw for drill and it is one tool you need to respect.

BTW I am still sore tonight, I should not be an attic worker at my age.

Would anyone like some pics?  I will locate the camera...


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## thomask (Feb 16, 2012)

Here is the new beadboard bar front, wine shelves in wet bar area and the two new pendant lights over the stove. The white board really makes a difference from that old paneling and not real expensive.  It does like to soak up the white paint though.

The two pendants do put out a neat glow and are not meant to be the main source of light.  We bought the red shades as it was near the holdiays.  Looking now for some green shades for St Patricks and Easter, Ha Ha.

Still thinking on the can lights. We saw a kitchen recently that seemed kinda dark with only four cans, thinking 5 or 6 presently space two feet apart and from sofffits.  We can always add a dimmer if too much light but don't enjoy attic work at this age.

What are your thoughts on our remodel so far, any suggestions always welcome.


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## oldognewtrick (Feb 16, 2012)

I think it turned out really well and I really like black counter tops like you installed. I'd suggest posting your pics in our photo gallery at the top of the forum page so others can see the results you achieved. Good job!


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## thomask (Feb 17, 2012)

oldog/newtrick said:


> I think it turned out really well and I really like black counter tops like you installed. I'd suggest posting your pics in our photo gallery at the top of the forum page so others can see the results you achieved. Good job!



Hey old dog/new trick,

Thanks for your kind reply. The granite is called Peacock Verda and is black with green accents.  It really shines when the light hits it. Some time back we were in a Home Depot EXPO store and were talking with their designer who suggested this would be a good color to go with our medium oak cabinets.  She was right IMO.  The dark tops,, medium cabinets and white beadboard seem to all fit together with the new oak floors. Also need to determine a good backsplash now.  

Any thoughts?


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## CallMeVilla (Mar 27, 2012)

Just finished a ceiling remodel that is similar to yours.  There is a 7th light around the corner.  All this is on a 20amp lighting circuit and 4-way switches.  Under-cabinet lights come next using LED strips powered of an existing 15amp light circuit because they are low volt and draw close to nothing.


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## thomask (Mar 27, 2012)

CallMeVilla said:


> Just finished a ceiling remodel that is similar to yours.  There is a 7th light around the corner.  All this is on a 20amp lighting circuit and 4-way switches.  Under-cabinet lights come next using LED strips powered of an existing 15amp light circuit because they are low volt and draw close to nothing.



Thanks for the post CallMeVilla:  

:help:Can you give me ceiling dimensions and some pictues.  I need some ideas here, my "Supervisor" is getting anxious for work to get back in gear and I want to keep her happy (if you know what I mean ).

Also tell us about your 4 way switches.


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## CallMeVilla (Mar 27, 2012)

Hope I can upload the pics.  Kitchen ceiling (recessed part) is about 11.5' x 6.5'.  Don't have a good shot of the "before" on the ceiling.  It was your typical 80's ceiling with two light boxes holding two 4' florescent light fixtures each, recessed into an over-built drywalled ceiling.  We tore out the framing (which was not structural) and created a trey celing which still allowed for recessed lights.  We sized/spaced the lights to over-wash.  While we are at it, we ran low volt wiring to drop down under each cabinet for the LEDs.  They all return to space inside the top of the leftmost cabinet by the sink  --  a receptacle is mounted there for the LED transformer.  A single pole switch controls the LED lights.

The recessed lights were a combination of old work and new to save cost, since we did not drop the entire ceiling.  We had to relocate the HVAC vent slightly and relocate some wiring that was in the way.  This required dropping part of the ceiling so I used new work cans there.  

The 4-way switches were required because you can turn on the recessed lights from three switch locations. Explanations on how to wire 4-way switches are available on line  --  too hard to explain here.  

Finish surface was skip trowel to match rest of house.  No, it wasn't just sloppy mudding on my part!

If the pics do not come through, shoot em an email and we will use that approach instead. ([email protected])


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## thomask (Sep 13, 2012)

UPDATE

Still have not decided to cut holes in the kitchen ceiling but have made progress.  Just recently installed undercounter light pucks on their own switch and outlet.

Added a duplex outlet inside an upper cabinet and used a spare switch that was never used for a disposer.  Installed the lights under the cabinets and they do add a nice downlight on the new counter tops. 

Has anyone ever done any toe kick lights in their kitchen with rope lights?  

CallMeVilla, what do you think?  Can you post one picture of your ceiling here please.

Have I gone too far?


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## nealtw (Sep 13, 2012)

Toe kick lights look great as long as you want to clean the floor 3 times a day, every thing shows up.


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## thomask (Sep 13, 2012)

nealtw said:


> Toe kick lights look great as long as you want to clean the floor 3 times a day, every thing shows up.



You have a good point there nealtw, our new stove top looks great when it is clean but does take some elbow grease, same for dark granite tops.  We are thinking of using old brick pavers for floor.

My friend just put in (toe lights) in his master bath as a night light.  I thought that was a novel idea.


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## thomask (Dec 20, 2012)

nealtw said:


> Toe kick lights look great as long as you want to clean the floor 3 times a day, every thing shows up.



Nealtw, I agree and with four grandkids around no need to bring extra attention to the floor, :agree:

If anyone would like, I have some pictures on recent lighting addition...I did figure how to use some old but new fixtures in the remodel.


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## nealtw (Dec 20, 2012)

Looks good, when the bi-fold doors start to fall apart, don't throw them out. Just take all the hardware off and hinge each panel to the frame and add door stops and spring button on top and get another life out of them.


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## thomask (Dec 20, 2012)

nealtw said:


> Looks good, when the bi-fold doors start to fall apart, don't throw them out. Just take all the hardware off and hinge each panel to the frame and add door stops and spring button on top and get another life out of them.



Great idea nealtw.  

My wife made me take out the louver doors and replace them with raised panels.  

By the way, she also wants me to do exactly what you said in her clothes closet, too.


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## nealtw (Dec 20, 2012)

It works great when you want to put shelves on one side of a closet, like pantry and broom closet.


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## thomask (Dec 20, 2012)

Some pics anyone?

Notice new globes for pendants and center fixture instead of the old track lights, they put out a nice glow and this was taken w/o a flash.

Fresh Boiled Shrimp anyone?


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## thomask (Jan 3, 2013)

Those undercounter lights really show off the bare painted walls of the backsplash area. 

Well we finally located some material for a backsplash.  It is a slate mini brick design and comes in 1 square foot sheets.  No two are alike and some are rough and some are smooth.  All kinds of colors but it does go well with the counter tops and the oak cabinets.

I started on New Years Day and need to do a few end pieces, seal and grout.

Does anyone care for pictures?


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## inspectorD (Jan 4, 2013)

Yeah!! Of course we do! You do know that just because nobody answers doesn't mean we aren't looking.
And your right, those undercabinet lights always have a tendency to show the defects in an area.


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## thomask (Jan 5, 2013)

Ok Ok here are some pictures if anyone really wants a look? 

Materials, tools, and layout in kitchen.

Real slate 1 x 2 tiles with a gray grout.

Backsplash was painted and was needing something.


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## thomask (Jan 5, 2013)

Installing in kitchen, not a fast process for a first time tile layer.


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## thomask (Jan 5, 2013)

It took about four days (between Bowl Games) since starting.

First picture is east wall before grouting.

Pictures two and three after grouting and clean up of both walls.

What do you think?

Will need to caulk bottom of tile at counter.

Those undercounter lights really look much better!


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 6, 2013)

I think it turned out really well, but what really matters...is she happy?


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## inspectorD (Jan 6, 2013)

That looks really nice! I like the stone look with those cabinets, gives it an earthly feel. So wat was the aproximate costs involved for the materials you chose?


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## thomask (Jan 6, 2013)

oldog/newtrick said:


> I think it turned out really well, but what really matters...is she happy?



 Well let's say she said I should go ahead and buy that new TV I had been looking for.


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## thomask (Jan 6, 2013)

inspectorD said:


> That looks really nice! I like the stone look with those cabinets, gives it an earthly feel. So wat was the aproximate costs involved for the materials you chose?



Thanks inspector D!  We had been searching for some time after we did the granite for a good match. Our house is not a fancy house but a comfortable place in need of some updates. We have a fireplace and this stone tile seems to go good with the Ledge Rock used there.

The stone tile was around 200 plus I needed to buy some tools, float, notched trowel, and grout sponge.  Then there was thin set, stone sealer, and three containers of grout.  Estimate around 300 ball park. I did have a few tiles left over.

For the price it made a big difference in the kitchen and gave it a more finished and updated look.  You might find some tile at a lower price and save about half of what we spent.



Keep in mind this slate tile was around 9 dollars a square foot.  We had seen tiles from 3 to 50 dollars and up per square foot. The new glass and metal tiles can go up in cost fast...

My arm was real sore last night after all that grouting and cleaning. Be careful to not try to do too much grouting in one day. 

Oh yeah, add in for a few advil for sore muscles.


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## CallMeVilla (Jan 6, 2013)

Tip on grouting  ...  I use a roll of paper towels instead of a sponge to wipe off the excess and the haze.  I grout, let the haze show, then use a SLIGHTLY dampened paper towel to lightly buff off the haze.  Flip it, repeat.  Do it as many times as needed.  No tedious sponge cleaning, getting a clean bucket of water ... etc.

The trick is to use just enough grout, to float it off as good as possible, to buff lightly.  It works really well with 1/2 the work.


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## thomask (Jan 15, 2013)

CallMeVilla said:


> Tip on grouting  ...  I use a roll of paper towels instead of a sponge to wipe off the excess and the haze.
> The trick is to use just enough grout, to float it off as good as possible, to buff lightly.  It works really well with 1/2 the work.



Great idea, the slate tiles are pretty rough and not slick like a ceramic tile.

I did seal them before grout and that helped.

The length of actual time from start to finish was probably a little over ten hours total, like I said lots of football over the New Years Holiday and I was learning as I went along.  A pro would have been much faster.

I may just try some floor tile.


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