# Help!  What is this growing in my crawl space?



## papakevin (Nov 28, 2011)

I'm having a oh ($%&!) crap moment here and looking for help ASAP.

After stablizing the living room and starting to install a new vapor barrier, I took a break and have not been at my flip home in a couple weeks.  It's been raining non-stop in the area lately, and fearing that the crawl space may be taking on water, I went to check it out.  I found that it does has some water in it, plus something nasty black looking stuff growing down there (see photos).  Is this stuff black mold?  Another type of mold? Something else? I don't know where it came from, but it wasn't there two weeks ago.  

What can I do to stop this immediately?  I was planning on installing a sump pump to get the water out, but apparently I was too late.  Thinking I could just pour some liquid bleach in the crawl space to stop what's going on now, but not sure that's the right thing to do.  Also have heard a Borax solution can stop growth, but again not sure.  

One thing I am sure of is I need some help quick!


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## nealtw (Nov 29, 2011)

What ever it is, the first step is to get the water out and dry it out.


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## joecaption (Nov 29, 2011)

Let me make a few guesses and assumptions and you correct me if I'm wrong.
The grade under the house is lower then the grade outside. 
Are there any working unplugged up gutters with lines leading far away from the house.
The area around the foundation outside does not slope away from the foundation, it's level instead.
There is no french drain.
There's mulch or flower beds right up againt the foundation.
The  key to dealing with this once and for all is to prevent the water from getting in the first place.
There should never be standing water under a house, and it should fail any home inspection if you were to try and sell it.
Yes you can treat the mold or fungus all you want but it's going to just come back unless you address the real problums causing it. All that water under there is going to cause fungus to grow on the floor joist which will eat the cellulose holding the wood fibers together, the insulation will get soaked and start to fall down, the insulation hangers will rust out, any electrical juntion boxes will get corroded wire connection.


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## bookerc (Nov 29, 2011)

Are you sure it is not some chemical reaction? Does not look like any living thing to me. But, I am judging from the photos.


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## papakevin (Nov 29, 2011)

Joe, you are correct. The crawl space is below ground level and I've been fighting the water issue for a while.  I will be trying a french drain this weekend, but there's a concrete patio feeding water into the side of the house I need to address.  I did extend the down spouts and even dug in some pipes to drain away the water, but will check to make sure nothing is clogged up.

Bookerc, I hope you are right.  With the water coming up in the crawl space, it could have been living, then covered with water. Previously, I a hired handyman to do some work and he spread a bunch of lime down in the crawl space, claiming it would kill any mold, but don't know if that's true or not.  Hopefully the black stuff is a result of the lime, but not counting on it.


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## joecaption (Nov 29, 2011)

Lime  will do nothing.
Boric acid (boron) will.
The grade under the house needs to be raised. If not then you will have nothing but a pond under that house. The only way to do it is to order a tandom load of driveway fill and haul it under the house. 
I use three people, One outside loading and two under the house.
We use 2, steel mason pans and drill holes on both ends, put a 1/2 rope long enough to reach the full length of the house, one on each end. One is to pull it in the other is to trail behind and pull it back out. Not a fun job and I pay  my guys $5.00 more an hour to do it.
A small house like  that could be done in about 1-1/2 days.
We have done this under mobil homes and houses up to 100' X 75'.


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## papakevin (Nov 30, 2011)

Is there a difference between borax and boron?  Guessing yes since they have different names, but can borax be used in place of boron to kill mold?  I can find borax locally at Walmart under the name 20 Mule Team (or something like that).  Have not found a source for boron as of yet. Thanks.


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## joecaption (Dec 1, 2011)

It can be ordered on line and  It's also marketed as a product called Roach Away. It's sold in Wal-Mart, Lowes and Home Depot in the area where pesticides are sold.
Boron is an amazing thing and is used to kill insects safely, a fireproofing agent, treating rotted wood.
Just mix it with really hot water and mix it in a pump sprayer to apply it.
If you ever see a real exterminators truck most will have two tanks, the smaller one is for spraying some form of a boron productin soloution with water to treat fungus under homes, the other big tank is for treating termites with a differant chemical in it. In his tool box will be Boron in a "Puffer" you just push the handle in and out and Boron is puffed out to treat anything from roachs, millipieds, centipieds, silverfish, boring bees, powder post bettles ect.
Even a lot of your ant killers like Tero have Boron in them.
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1821681


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## papakevin (Dec 2, 2011)

Cool, thanks.  Any idea what the mix ratio should be for spraying?  I plan on covering the entire area - floor joists, walls, floor - to help kill and prevent future (mold?) growth.


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## CrawlSpaceMoisture (Dec 3, 2011)

A sump pump will get the water out... AFTER the water soaks through the entire crawlspace to get to it!  Once you've taken care of the exterior obvious issues, you'll probably need a 'french' drain on the inside to a sump pump. 
the stuff - have no clue
no mold-cleaning chemical will stop a fungi from coming back unless the causes (moisture) are dealt with.  never use bleach on a wood product, btw - can help it come back with a vengence!


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## SnellExperts (Dec 4, 2011)

Looks like a pretty serious mold issue. Nealtw hit the nail on the head advising you to dry the area out. I would also recommend calling in a mold inspection so that you can get a protocol on the extent of the mold, and what should be corrected to make sure the mold doesn't come back. Are you or your family experiencing any symptoms of mold exposure? Notice any odor that smells like mildew?


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## papakevin (Dec 4, 2011)

Snellexperts, had a local guy put a drain pipe around the inside of the crawl space and install a sump pump to keep the water out. There are drainage issues in the back of the property, which are going to be tough to fix, so went with the sump pump and vapor barrier.

I did spread around some borax in the space prior to him showing up and attempted to bag an remove what I saw. Haven't been down there in a couple day, but going there today with some boric acid mixed with water. If you have a suggestion for a parts per mix, please pass it along.  Also very open to any additional suggestions on killing this stuff and making the house safe. 

The house is a vacant house that I've been trying to fix up to sell for quite a while.  No one is living there now.  Found out I bit off more than I can chew, that's for certain. As I mentioned in my first post, I was under the house two weeks prior to the pictures you see and there was nothing growing down there.  I had removed part o the old vapor barrier, but didn't put the new section back down which left part of the ground exposed for a couple weeks.  Scary how fast whatever it is grew when a little water was added.


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## papakevin (Dec 4, 2011)

Forgot to add, thanks again!


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## joecaption (Dec 5, 2011)

By just adding the vaper barrier and not taking the time to correct the problums causing it or at least raising the inside grade it may that all you did was add a pool liner.


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## SnellExperts (Dec 9, 2011)

Haven't used that stuff in a while. We switched over to a "green" product thats completely safe cuz it's made from plant extract. Let me check when I get in the office tomorrow and I will get back to you if you still need that info.


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## papakevin (Dec 10, 2011)

SnellExperts, would appreciate any information you can provide. I have already removed what I could and treated with borax and boric acid (two different times), but thinking I probably missed some. I did put down a vapor barrier and had a guy dig out a sump pump with a drain channel around the entire inside of the crawl space, so hopefully I'm on my way to solving the problem.


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## nealtw (Dec 10, 2011)

With a drain inside the crawl space, this house will always have a moisture issue, you may want to look at a venting system like the one I have posted here.


Eliminator Crawlpsace Vent Fan System - Comdensation / Moisture Control


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## CrawlSpaceMoisture (Dec 11, 2011)

Neal,
What's Comdensation? 

How's the drain going to cause them to have moisture problems?


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## nealtw (Dec 11, 2011)

Most times the water is kept out of the crawl space with outside drainage. With this system inside there is a steady supply of water in the crawl space. In warmer weather you will have evaporation. when the weather changes to cool or cold that moisture will condence on cold water pipes, framing members that a exposed to the cold outside like the sill sitting on the foundation. A good supply of air is a cheap way to keep the crawl space and the house healthy.


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## ilikeblue (Dec 11, 2011)

It looks like mold to me, especially since your talking about all the rain involved. I've seen black mold before, and it isn't pretty!


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## papakevin (Dec 14, 2011)

SnellExperts, if you have the name of the stuff you use to kill the mold, please feel free to share. I'd like to treat the entire space with with something guaranteed to kill the mold. Tried the borate solution mix, but my sprayer kept clogging up, so willing to pay a little more for a premixed solution. 

I like the venting option for Spring.  For winter, concerned encouraging air flow will freeze pipes and have a negative effect on the plumbing.


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## nealtw (Dec 14, 2011)

Kevin
     Most people we see fixing houses to sell, do more damage than good, and by your posts here it looks like you are trying your best to make it right for whoever buys the house and I just want to say "GOOD ON YOU"


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## joecaption (Dec 15, 2011)

That boron has to be mixed with very hot water, add a small amount at a time and shake the poop out of the container as your adding it.
If you added automatic open vents they open when it warm and close when it's cold.
There about $17.00 each in Lowes, Home Depot, some hardware stores.
There's no power needed just cut the hole and stick them in.


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## papakevin (Dec 15, 2011)

Joe, I'll try it again.  Used hot water, but will admit probably added too much at a time.  Looked at the automatic vents, but will give them another look.

Neal, thanks for the kind words. Sometimes I'm my own worst enemy and I'm learning trying to get things right and flipping a house are at odds on occasion, but wouldn't feel right selling someone something that's not solid.  I've purchased two previous houses and have sold them with success, so this house is my "learning experience".  I'll likely have more money in it than I can get back out of it, but I'll write it off as paying for the education.  Ha!


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## SnellExperts (Dec 15, 2011)

Sorry for the delay in a response on that product. We have been pretty busy that past few weeks, and are now in the process of knocking down one of the walls to expand our office since it is getting crowded (home office). Anyhow, sorry to disappoint, but apparently I had the product I was thinking of confused with something else. Let me know what area you are in though because we may have some connections up there and can help you out with finding a company if you decide not to do this yourself.


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## BMartin9000 (Aug 10, 2012)

Sorry Papakevin. This looks like a mess. It does look like mold and everyone is right, you need to stop that water from coming into the home. You can try boric acid to help get rid of the mold, but first I would just try scrubbing the area with soap and water. It'll be much gentler on the wood.
------------
BMartin9000
Van-De-Steeg


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## commhealy (Feb 21, 2013)

The stuff does looks like fungus of some sort.  The only way to know for sure what type of fungus is to have it DNA typed and even then there is not a lot of research into mold.  The easy thing to remember is ANY fungus growth can be dangerous and you don't want it there.  From the look of the foundation blocks there is a lot of mineral build up.  The water could be coming from the top and through the bottom of the dirt floor under the house.  It depends on the water line.  You can do everything possible outside around the house and the water might just be coming from underground.  Forget chemicals for now the water needs to get out of their.  A sump pump with a drain tile system inside it the first place to start and maybe also on the outside on the foundation.  Obviously the cost of digging down to the base of the foundation for a drain system will be much greater than the inside.  But inside is the first place to start.  You might have to build a more extensive drain system too than just around the perimeter of the wall inside.  All that moisture is going to attack that wood and your floors will start sagging.  I just got into my first house with a crawl space and am having the exact same issues....except not as bad.  Also if you have neighbors close by make sure their gutters and water is being drained properly.  The house next to me has NO gutters and one side of their house drains right on the ground and flows downhill to my house.  The wall with the worse water intrusion in my crawl space just happens to be the one facing my neighbor's house.  I am about ready to pay to have gutters put on their house.
Once you stop the water then work on the vapor barrier.  Even if it is just some 6 mil plastic from Home Depot for a temp measure.  You may also want to put a couple of remote temperature and humidity sensors in your crawl to keep an eye on the water in the air.  Anything over 50% is a problem.  40% would be ideal.


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## papakevin (Feb 22, 2013)

Ok, here's the latest.  I hope all of my issues are over and I'm still not sure what was going on, but here's what I did:

1) Noticed a low spot between this house and the neighbor's house, which collected a lot of water next to the foundation. Put in a drain pipe to drain this water away from both houses.  Unfortunately water continues to back up next to my neighbor's house, pouring into their crawl space when it rains.  Hopefully my pipe will help their property as well. 
2) Pumped out the water from the crawl space.  Used a small shovel and heavy plastic bags to remove the surface black stuff from the crawl space.  When it was cleaned out, spread quite a bit of 20 Mule Team Borax all over the crawl space., because I hear it kills or inhibits growth of any bad stuff.  
3) Put down a high quality vapor barrier wall to wall. 
4) Hired someone to dig around the foundation in the crawl space, installing drain pipe and a sump pump to remove water. Here's the kicker: While digging the drain pipe around inside of the crawl space, my hired help noticed the PVC drain waste pipe going into the cast iron sewer line was not secured properly, so he fixed it.

So, as of now, the problem seems to be fixed.  I'm wondering if the black substance that appeared in the crawl space was actually oil which came from the sanitary sewer system, which backed up into the crawl space due to the jacked up plumbing pipe when we had heavy rains in the area.  Wishful thinking?  Thoughts?


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## papakevin (Feb 22, 2013)

Here's how it looks today.  I did reinforce the floor joists using some advice from another link here because the floors had some bounce in them.


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## inspectorD (Feb 23, 2013)

That looks great! Just remember to check down there once and a while just to see how it stands up to the moisture. My advice is also not to store anything cellulose based down there, like cardboard boxes, rugs, wood, you get the idea.
That borax is good stuff, good luck with the crawlspace!


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## nealtw (Feb 25, 2013)

You used Bridgeman's suggestions on the 2x4s, Are you happy with it.


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## papakevin (Feb 27, 2013)

Yes, very please with how the floor feels now. The 2x4 solution was absolutely the easiest and best approach to cure the bounce in my floors at this house and it is almost completely gone.  You wouldn't even know it is there unless you are walking around trying to notice it, and this is with the hardwood flooring. Getting ready to install some cheap carpet on top, which will make it a non-issue.


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## papakevin (Feb 27, 2013)

Yes, very pleased with how the floor feels now. The 2x4 solution was absolutely the easiest and best approach to cure the bounce in my floors at this house as it is almost completely gone.  You wouldn't even know it is there unless you are walking around trying to notice it, and this is with the hardwood flooring. Getting ready to install some cheap carpet on top, which will make it a non-issue.  Hopefully this house will be sold in the next 60 to 90 days, so I can move onto other projects.


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