# 220 sub panel with no Neutral



## NWillemain (Dec 15, 2020)

So my friend had an ex install a subpanel out on a separated deck for a hot tub. They couldn't get the hot tub main board to power on. I come over one day and found the following:

•Subpanel has 2 hot legs and a ground coming in.
•Using 60amp GFCI 220v breaker
•Load Neutral coming from the circuit breaker was connected to Neutral bus bar
•Neutral from hot tub was connected to Neutral bar
•Jumper was placed from Neutral bar to Ground bar..............

Measuring each hot to neutral gave 120v, measuring to ground gave 120v, but measuring hot to hot resulted in 0v

Detached jumper from ground to neutral.
Same measurings to ground but to neutral was no 0v.

Replaced circuit breaker
No change 

I ran a wire from the subpanel back to the main panel at the house but inside the panel the neutral and grounding had a jumper bar across that aswell...

Is there something I'm missing or is it time to throw in the towel?


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## JoeD (Dec 15, 2020)

With a GFCI breaker the load neutral has to connect to the breaker. The breaker pigtail connects to the neutral bar. But since your hot tub does not have a neutral that should not matter.
You problem is the lack of 240 volts. It sounds like one of the hot wires is dead. Do you have 240 volts across the terminals of the breaker? If not the breaker could be in the wrong slot. You might need to move the breaker up or down one slot.


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## NWillemain (Dec 15, 2020)

This hot tub has a Neutral. I have the pigtail going to neutral bar and hot tub neutral going to breaker. So the Neutral bar at sub panel ONLY has neutral pigtail and hot tub neutral, no wire from main breaker panel.

At the Subpanel both legs have 120V when you check with ground, but going across them yields 0v. That's how I caught the issue. So it would not require a Neutral wire from the breaker panel out to the sub panel?

I have attached her subpanel breaker though its probably not needed.

I'll have to drive back out there and check for the 220v at the main breaker panel. Forgot to check after I saw no neutral bus by itself.


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## bud16415 (Dec 15, 2020)

First off the sub panel breaker needs to be a GFCI it needs to be close to the tub within sight but has to be far enough away that it can’t be reached by anyone in the tub. Code is 5-6’ minimum if I recall. It is not to code to make the breaker in the main panel a GFCI and that is the only point of protection.



That breaker does not look like a GFCI and a hot tub can be deadly without one.



The only way you can be reading 120v at both hot wires but zero between them is if they are both getting their power from the same side of the 240. Both are hot but the same potential. That is mostly common where there is a open and a short would be my guess.

I can’t stress enough the need for a properly functioning GFCI.


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## NWillemain (Dec 15, 2020)

Hot tub is approximately 8ft away. The breaker I supplied is a GFCI breaker is a subpanel

Unsure about the 240 breaker since I didnt wire any of it. Sounds like she is going to need an electrician to come out and work the main breaker box so I dont screw it up.

From what I saw inside the panel, white and black coming out the right side of a double breaker(on right side of panel) then routed out to the deck with ground terminated on bus bar.

Will drive out tomorrow and confirm how the main breaker is wired for black and white.

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If the breaker has the load neutral pigtail going to neutral bar. Nothing else on the bar.
The hot tub has neutral wire going into circuit breaker. Do I or do I not need a Neutral running from main box out to subpanel? If it is needed where would it terminate in a main box if both sides (Neutral and Ground) are jumpered together?


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## NWillemain (Dec 15, 2020)

This is what I walked in to minus the jumper from neutral to ground. This is the subpanel.


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## NWillemain (Dec 15, 2020)

This is the GFCI she had installed in subpanel.




			https://www.amazon.com/Siemens-QF260A-Circuit-Interrupter-Lockout/dp/B01D4UHYTW/ref=asc_df_B01D4UHYTW/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167139094796&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2467690322585482406&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9012880&hvtargid=pla-305283312169&psc=1


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## Snoonyb (Dec 15, 2020)

In the service load center, where the breakers are installed, there are two buss bars and each of those buss bars are connected through the meter and provide 120V, 180 degrees out of phase.

The hot tub is being powered from, just one of those buss bars, so you'll need to provide the correct breaker at the main service panel so that the power originates from both buss bars.


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## NWillemain (Dec 15, 2020)

Okay I'll check the breaker in the load center when I get back out there. Should the Ground bar and Neutral bar have a jumper bar connecting the two in the load center? Or is that only because everything currently is 120V only?


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## Snoonyb (Dec 15, 2020)

Load center yas, sub panel no.


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## bud16415 (Dec 15, 2020)

can you tell us also the wire size running from the house to the GFCI sub panel and from there to the tub?


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## NWillemain (Dec 15, 2020)

They ran 6 gauge for hot tub. Waiting for response on the panel to sub panel
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They ran 12 gauge from main box to subpanel


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## Snoonyb (Dec 15, 2020)

What is the make and model of the tub and how about a photo of the nomenclature tag?


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## NWillemain (Dec 15, 2020)

She's not home to ask for those. I told her to get an electrician out to fix it properly. Did the minor troubleshooting I knew and provided her the info for them to have an idea of where to start. The guy she had out that installed everything originally wasn't an electrician so probably going to end up costing her 3x what she originally would have paid. Thanks for help yall.


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## bud16415 (Dec 15, 2020)

I think you have a good plan. My guess is that they are going to rip that #12 out and do it right. 

She's lucky you came along and didn't burn her house down.


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## NWillemain (Dec 15, 2020)

Yeah I may not be an expert but when I first looked at it I was like are you kidding me? How did they not notice the breaker voltage? Lol

She had 2 friends over previously looking at it and everyone just immediately troubleshot the hottub main board. I checked the breaker at subpanel 1st and that's when i was like uhhh something ain't right here.


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## Jeff Handy (Dec 16, 2020)

House fire, or hot tub deep fryer!


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## afjes_2016 (Dec 16, 2020)

I hope you made it quite clear to her not to even power up the hot tub at this point. Make sure the breaker at the main panel that feeds the panel at the hot tub is not turned on until a licensed and qualified electrician checks this out. There are a lot of things wrong. Best to have the electrician check everything. If in fact a 12 gauge is feeding that panel for the tub there is an issue then. Wondering what breaker they used at the main panel to go to the tub panel. 12 gauge is only rated up to 20amps.

Again too much not right with this set-up. No more friends to look at it - just a licensed electrician.


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## NWillemain (Dec 16, 2020)

60A in main aswell as in sub

Made her well aware to leave both breakers off. When I go back today I'll be tagging it out and leaving all my notes just in case. Thing hasnt even been used since she got it a year ago. Probably has even more issues at the hot tub. So I'm tagging out and letting the pro bang his head cuz mine hurts haha.


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## afjes_2016 (Dec 17, 2020)

A licensed electrician will be able to determine pretty quickly what the problems are and how to rectify them. Whether she is willing to do it is something else. It will cost money but it will end up being safe in both electrical and human hazard.


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## Jeff Handy (Dec 19, 2020)

I wired up a hot tub from the breaker box to a new gfci sub panel on the patio about 20 years ago. 
I used 4 gauge wire. 
In steel conduit. 
60 amp gfci breaker. 
It was a real bitch to manipulate those thick wires to hook things up. 
And tough to pull in conduit. 
Two conductors, plus neutral and ground. 
I think I could have gone smaller on the neutral and ground, but kept it all 4 gauge for peace of mind, and in case of a dead short somewhere. 
At the time, it was a real pain to locate the 60 amp gfci, most places only had 50 amp.


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## bud16415 (Dec 20, 2020)

My hot tub I wired with a 50a in the panel then #6-3/G romex red, black, white, ground. My sub panel has two GFCI a 20a and a 30a per tub design. Then on to the tub I ran #8 individual wires (7) in seal-tite. The reason some tubs have dual GFCI is the heater is on the 20a and the rest of the tub pumps and control are on the 30a. If the heater goes out in the winter the tub recognizes it starts an alarm and goes into survival mode slowly circulating the hot water in the tub thru the piping. Doing this it gives you a good week to get heater replaced without anything freezing and breaking. Not all tubs have this but it is a feature they all need up north IMO.


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## afjes_2016 (Dec 21, 2020)

Bud16415 - I like that feature of the safety circulator in case the heater goes out. I have had two hot tubs in the past. None of them had that feature. But what happens if there is a power failure for more than a day and you don't have a generator - yikes!!


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## bud16415 (Dec 21, 2020)

afjes_2016 said:


> Bud16415 - I like that feature of the safety circulator in case the heater goes out. I have had two hot tubs in the past. None of them had that feature. But what happens if there is a power failure for more than a day and you don't have a generator - yikes!!



Worst case is I would drain the tub. Doing that gets most of the lines empty enough I feel to protect against bursting with a freeze.



Other people I know put a small cube heater in the pump area they can plug into a small generator if the tub conks out. It would take a good size gen to run the tub on.

I drain my tub into my grinder-pump tank that pumps out to the towns sewer system. if the power is out I would have to drain it to the back yard. In the fall I take all my garden hoses and blow them out with compressed air before I put them away. Nothing worse than trying to drain a hot tub with a hose full of ice.


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