# Side porch repair



## ome (May 8, 2016)

We are repairing our attached side enclosed porch. 
22' by 8'. 
12 windows and 2' wall.   All wall studs on 22' outer wall will be replaced with double pressure treated 2 by 4's.  Pressure Treated 2 by 8's under 2 by 12 horizontal sill(?)
All nailed with 3" stainless steel ring shanked nails. 
Under each double 2 by 4 is a 2 by 8 nailed to support beams underneath the floor. 
All floor joists will be sistered with same size standard lumber with 3/8-1/2" bolts , washers and lock nuts, plus hot dipped galv 3" nails. 
4" thick granite 18" square blocks with 4 by 4 or 6 by 6 timbers for supports under floor joists. 
No poured cement footing for side pirch, just a few for corners of front porch. 
Originally was a open wrap around porch, then side porch was enclosed with windows and a knee wall. 
Not sure I want to use construction adhesive for sistering beams. 
Any advice is greatly appreciated. 
Not sure how many supports to put in under the porch floor and the perimeter beams. 
Two huge ciculating hot water radiators at either end of enclosed porch. 
Thanks 
ome


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## joecaption (May 8, 2016)

Why are you using pressure treated wood and stainless steel nails inside above the flooring at all?
Looks like the flooring was just installed over the joist with no sub flooring, and your trying to add a new bottom plate with only a 1 X over the open floor joist.
Doing it that way there's going to be a ton of air gaps for the air from under the floor to get in.
If your trying to split the span of the joist and add support to the floor to reduce bounce and sag then you really need to add a doubled up beam down the center, not a single post holding up a single joist.


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## ome (May 8, 2016)

joecaption said:


> Why are you using pressure treated wood and stainless steel nails inside above the flooring at all?
> Looks like the flooring was just installed over the joist with no sub flooring, and your trying to add a new bottom plate with only a 1 X over the open floor joist.
> Doing it that way there's going to be a ton of air gaps for the air from under the floor to get in.
> If your trying to split the span of the joist and add support to the floor to reduce bounce and sag then you really need to add a doubled up beam down the center, not a single post holding up a single joist.


Thanks for posting,
I have had leaks coming in around the windows and in between them, saw some water damage to the inner wall studs, so just to be on the safe side, I chose the pressure treated and ss nails just in case it leaks again. 
That os not a 1 by but a 2 by sitting horizontally on the three beam header underneath at the outer wall perimeter, just over the hatch opening in the wall. 
I am doing the inside first , then going under to support the floor beams or joists. 
Sorry, not sure of all the terms, I am just a homeowner with experience in finish work and metal work. 
Should I be starting under neath?
My plan was to open the walls, replace the vertical supports while replacing any rotting wood with treated lumber, just cause of potential water damage. 
Then, I am ripping up the floor, down to the beams, and working with the beams from underneath and inside. 
Then just finish with ply and new wood floor. 
ome


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## nealtw (May 8, 2016)

I would just add to Joe's questions and ask why not just re build the outside walls properly and re install windows properly.


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## ome (May 8, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I would just add to Joe's questions and ask why not just re build the outside walls properly and re install windows properly.



Answer is, unfortunately lack of funds have forced me to do everything myself. 
That being said, I do not have the experience or knowledge to do the necessary framing for the windows and rebuilding of the walls, even though I could just copy what is there, if it was done correctly. 
It us not wven done correctly, so this is my only option. 
ome


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## nealtw (May 8, 2016)

ome said:


> Answer is, unfortunately lack of funds have forced me to do everything myself.
> That being said, I do not have the experience or knowledge to do the necessary framing for the windows and rebuilding of the walls, even though I could just copy what is there, if it was done correctly.
> It us not wven done correctly, so this is my only option.
> ome



There people here to help you. It is just putting wood in there to handle water is fine but if you close it up with just about anything you could end up with mold.
Even just fixing up the walls the windows should be pulled and installed properly.
At least just talking about it is cheap.


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## ome (May 9, 2016)

nealtw said:


> There people here to help you. It is just putting wood in there to handle water is fine but if you close it up with just about anything you could end up with mold.
> Even just fixing up the walls the windows should be pulled and installed properly.
> At least just talking about it is cheap.



Thats why I posted this question. 
Am I posting in the wrong section of the forum?
I just am looking for some help, and would be willing to learn and try something new, only if it would be adviseable to do so and only with the support from others who have the experience and knowledge. 
ome


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## nealtw (May 9, 2016)

The blocks holding off the ground, you do realize that they should be at the depth of the frost level. With out that depth your porch could be subject to movement in the winter that will damage all your work?
Can you post more picture, outside showing window trim and roof over hang. Inside of the roof structure if it is open, and if you can show more of the wall in question.
Are you intending to do a finished floor and what would that be?


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## ome (May 9, 2016)

nealtw said:


> The blocks holding off the ground, you do realize that they should be at the depth of the frost level. With out that depth your porch could be subject to movement in the winter that will damage all your work?
> Can you post more picture, outside showing window trim and roof over hang. Inside of the roof structure if it is open, and if you can show more of the wall in question.
> Are you intending to do a finished floor and what would that be?



If it would make that much of a difference, then will go to frost line and pour cement. 
The forum only lets me post one pic at a time , total. 
Roof is not open.  This roof has had been replaced with plywood and shingles 25 years ago. 
Sank towards middle where the windows are.  Reason seemed to be water damage, rotting beams, and insufficient supports. 
If I dig for cement supports below frost line, how many, one in each corner, and two at a 6 ' span in the center of the 22' knee wall, then one in the middle of the floor beam, under the main beam. 
I weld, if I welded 1/2" plate to "x" size round or square pipe, , what size pipe. 
How many holes in a 1/2" plate and what size wood support?
I have plenty if 12" by 12" by 1/2" mild steel plate. 
Should I put a flinch plate instead of sistering the floor beams. 
When sistering, can I use my framing nailer, how many 3" by .131" diam per 12"?
Or should I drill and bolt, 3/8, 1/2" or larger?
Thanks for any advice in advance
one


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## nealtw (May 9, 2016)

I would expect your frost level to be about 3 to 4 ft, crappy digging job under there.
I would expect it could be done with three bearing points but an engineer would be looking at snow loads and all that, he would also look at window placement.

I meant can you view the structure from below or do you have a ceiling and is the ceiling flat or does it follow the roof line.
Other new people have posted more than one photo.

Sisterring joists , 3" nails 3 every 16" would do fine.  Why do you need to sister them? 

Condition of joists and beams as they are now?

And your plan for a finished floor?


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## ome (May 9, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I would expect your frost level to be about 3 to 4 ft, crappy digging job under there.
> I would expect it could be done with three bearing points but an engineer would be looking at snow loads and all that, he would also look at window placement.
> 
> I meant can you view the structure from below or do you have a ceiling and is the ceiling flat or does it follow the roof line.
> ...


Thank you so much,
I will go and snap some more pics. My iphone is all I have, no computer or laptop. I can post one pic per post. 
We have an interior flat finished ceiling. 
The roof is not visible from inside. 
The structure can be seen from below thru crawling under theu the hatch. 
I wanted to sister the beams just to make them stronger, or if any were cut due to plumbing, or just rotted. 
Is there any negative to sistering if not needed, like extra load?
The condition of the joists and beams is good, except certain portions of the outer wall beam are a bit soft in areas. 
Our plans are either oak, which was over a yellow pine subfloor. 
The rest of the house I put in Brazilian cherry, just cause it came in straighter boards and we liked the hardness for our labrador. 
I was going with Douglas Fir for the outside front porch floor, replacing the rotting yellow pine. 
If I had money, I would put ipe t and g in as narrow as it comes. 
No maintenance is my aim lol. 
Thanks 
And will post another pic later. 
ome


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## nealtw (May 9, 2016)

If you can post only one photo just do another post, each will require 10 digits and look as simple as ...............


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## nealtw (May 9, 2016)

Can you do a rough sketch of the joist system showing beams and joists, lumber sizes and apox. measurements and take a picture of that.
And how are things attached to the house.


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## ome (May 9, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Can you do a rough sketch of the joist system showing beams and joists, lumber sizes and apox. measurements and take a picture of that.
> And how are things attached to the house.



Yes, will do, just will take me till the weekend, if things go well. 
I did something I never do, nor will do again, let a carpenter repair a knee wall 2 by 12 , with a 2 by 8 by 4 instead if a 2 by 8 by 6, leaving only a span of 4" from the weak spot to the end of the 2 by. 
He already nailed in the double 2 by 4's for support, with SS nails. 
I only have about 110 of these ,which were leftover from an older project. 
Besides pulling it all out , which I would have to do, and I do not want to add further damage while attempting to do so. 
Here is another pic


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## nealtw (May 9, 2016)

......................


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## ome (May 9, 2016)

Like this?


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## ome (May 9, 2016)

I tried with three pics, only posts my first choice. 
Are you using an IPhone or android? Laptop or smartphone?


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## nealtw (May 9, 2016)

I am on a computer. Some people use some site where you can store pictures on line and then just post a link to that.
http://s5.photobucket.com/


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## ome (May 9, 2016)

I have tried that for other sites, didn't work, so I will just post one at a time. 
I just took some inside the room and outside, and will get to the rest by friday ir sat. 
Did u get a chance to see my last question, any option to pulling it all off?
Thanks,
ome


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## nealtw (May 9, 2016)

ome said:


> I have tried that for other sites, didn't work, so I will just post one at a time.
> I just took some inside the room and outside, and will get to the rest by friday ir sat.
> Did u get a chance to see my last question, any option to pulling it all off?
> Thanks,
> ome



I would hope things can be fixed up with out taking it all down.
The sag in the center is a concern and I don't understand why the wall is thicker below the windows.
Above each window should be a double 2x? supported by studs beside the windows all the way to the floor. Up under the floor there should be solid blocking under the floor sheeting to spread that load to a beam or something below. So we know some are all of that is missing.
What I would like to do is understanding the framing and support below and then look at the wall to see what can be done with that.


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## ome (May 9, 2016)

I did not mean taking down the entire structure, I was referring to my prior post, about a carpenter repairing with the wrong  size 2 by ? and  having to possibly take it down and redo. 
Thank You for explaining the correct way this room should have been converted to. 
I believe u just pointed iut to me what had gone wrong. 
In 1904 this house was built. 
Either at that time or some time later, the a wrap around porch was built. 
A knee wall construction, with the lower ground level was wider than the top of the knee wall where a 2 by 12 was put with wooden pillars to carry the load of the roof. 
I do not know if they used a canterlever?
Or just attached to the house with a ledger. 
All was good, until, someone had the bright idea to build a sun porch, by " enclosing" the side porch. 
They just used the 2 by 12 as a sill for  the windows to sit, and three  2 by 4's inbetween each window, only going down to the same 2 by 12". 
Then they did not properly support to transfer the loads. 
Water damaged was at the center of the dip in the 22' long wall. 
The room is 8 by 22' roughly. 
They used different sized 2 by ? for joists and beams under the floor. 
Same thing was done in the attic, all different size rafters for the ceiling. 
Looks like they used whatever they had. 
Now, I would love to do it right, but , I am no framer, give me a table leg and I will make one by eye on my lathe, but please don't ask me to frame, unless u get me to drink, cause I don't drink. 
ome


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## nealtw (May 10, 2016)

1904 would explain some things, likely has been replaced but the same type of framing was used.
So part of that wall sits on the ground or close to it? So the inner part sits on the floor and outer part extends further down past the floor?


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## nealtw (May 10, 2016)

What city and state are you in, need that for frost depth.


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## ome (May 10, 2016)

We are in freeport, NY
I think it is 42" , IIRC. 
Yes, almost like a woman's skirt. Victorian style, so the angle is seen even in the wall with the 2 by 4's.   If the inside width is 8', then the outside bottom of the wall is 9' wide, flaring out an extra foot or so over a 
There us still the original wall, outer wall was cedar shakes over one by threes, then asphalt shingles, then we came along and sided it, could not afford to restore.  The outer wall is 53" from outer showing 2 by 12 to ground.   The inside wall is about 2' high from floor to window sill or 2 by 12. 
So that being said, the outer wall is resting on the ground by means if the aluminum bottom cap. 
The inner wall  sits on the finished floor. 
They used a cheap 1/4" wainscoting.   I used 3/4" wainscoting when finishing the third floor ir walk up attic.


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## nealtw (May 10, 2016)

So the window sill is flat from the inside out under the window all the way to the ouster wall? That would be the water bottom?


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## ome (May 10, 2016)

nealtw said:


> So the window sill is flat from the inside out under the window all the way to the ouster wall? That would be the water bottom?



Yes, but what do u mean by the "water bottom"?


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## nealtw (May 10, 2016)

ome said:


> Yes, but what do u mean by the "water bottom"?


I meant water problem sorry.


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## ome (May 10, 2016)

Yes, the windows were never put in correct, missing the pitch of a sill for a window to let the water run out and not stand. 
We tried to create a pitch, and went over with aluminum and lots of silicone caulking. It finally worked , after caulking literally it all. 
No leaks at all.   Roof is not an issue, atleast as far as leaks. 
Thanks
ome
Is this what u do for a living, consultations, or are you also a builder?


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## nealtw (May 10, 2016)

Among many other things I retired last year from framing houses.
When you are framing houses, every other trade has something to say about what they need to make their job easier or better so you end up with a good understanding of all aspects of the job.


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## nealtw (May 10, 2016)

It is not hard to see this outside wall should be re built from the foundation up but, that will depend on you, I doubt you want to do that, so mostly I am looking for ways to straighten it up and make it water tight.


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## ome (May 10, 2016)

Sounds good.  Thank God I met someone who knows their trade well. 
I remember using .225 " diameter sinkers when helping my dad build an eactension to our house when we were kids. 
Maybe 50 years ago. 
Now I use .131 mostly , or .148 out of my newer framing gun. These tools are finally going to see some work. 
I assume we do not need to fabricate a flinch plate?
Is there anyplace I can use my skills ll as a stick welder?
We can do some simple fabrication. 
Thanks 
ome


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## nealtw (May 10, 2016)

ome said:


> Sounds good.  Thank God I met someone who knows their trade well.
> I remember using .225 " diameter sinkers when helping my dad build an eactension to our house when we were kids.
> Maybe 50 years ago.
> Now I use .131 mostly , or .148 out of my newer framing gun. These tools are finally going to see some work.
> ...


The only time we use steel is when some engineer calls for it but you never know.
Is any of the framing above the windows open so we can see what was constructed up there?


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## ome (May 10, 2016)

nealtw said:


> The only time we use steel is when some engineer calls for it but you never know.
> Is any of the framing above the windows open so we can see what was constructed up there?


There is a one by running above all the windows, and only one piece of molding came off, in this area. 
Does not show much, but if u want to see a close up, no problem. 
Here is the pic with out a close up.
Kind of dark, and I don't know why the pics come out sideways.


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## nealtw (May 10, 2016)

I see something like a 2x4 on the flat and the white piece above that should be a beam or header to hold the weight of the roof off the window. So that board should be hiding something behind it like 2 2x6s on edge.


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## ome (May 10, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I see something like a 2x4 on the flat and the white piece above that should be a beam or header to hold the weight of the roof off the window. So that board should be hiding something behind it like 2 2x6s on edge.



Should I try and get that board out, to see what is going on ?


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## nealtw (May 10, 2016)

ome said:


> Should I try and get that board out, to see what is going on ?



I would like to prove something else is there first.


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## nealtw (May 10, 2016)

ome said:


> Should I try and get that board out, to see what is going on ?



So if the three 2x4s between the windows are 2x4s there could be a double something above that would be 3" and then that piece would be a 1/2" filler but if those uprights are actually 2x3 then  that piece piece might be a full 1" and would be structural.


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## ome (May 11, 2016)

nealtw said:


> So if the three 2x4s between the windows are 2x4s there could be a double something above that would be 3" and then that piece would be a 1/2" filler but if those uprights are actually 2x3 then  that piece piece might be a full 1" and would be structural.




Did u get my pm's?


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## nealtw (May 11, 2016)

ome said:


> Did u get my pm's?



not today.


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## ome (May 11, 2016)

nealtw said:


> not today.



I sent them at about 330 -345 am?
Anything I should do before taking pics?


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## nealtw (May 11, 2016)

Did we loose a photo, I thought I saw one that showed the floor and bottom of short wall?

The one inch board above the windows, if you drill a few 1/4" holes, you can determine if there is solid wood there, do not make swiss cheese out of it


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## ome (May 11, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Did we loose a photo, I thought I saw one that showed the floor and bottom of short wall?
> 
> The one inch board above the windows, if you drill a few 1/4" holes, you can determine if there is solid wood there, do not make swiss cheese out of it


Will make some 1/4 " holes, not more than two. 
I will send the pic again. 
In the prior post, I assume i were referring to  the windows being moved by the wind?
I will also take a pic of the other window with a small amount of rot in the 2 by 4's that are inbetween the windows. 
Is that called a mullion?
Thanks
ome


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## nealtw (May 11, 2016)

ome said:


> Will make some 1/4 " holes, not more than two.
> I will send the pic again.
> In the prior post, I assume i were referring to  the windows being moved by the wind?
> I will also take a pic of the other window with a small amount of rot in the 2 by 4's that are inbetween the windows.
> ...



Mullion is in a window between to panes of glass.

Your 2x4s  the middle one is likely a king stud going to the top plate and the other two are Jack studs holding up the header for each window.


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## ome (May 11, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Mullion is in a window between to panes of glass.
> 
> Your 2x4s  the middle one is likely a king stud going to the top plate and the other two are Jack studs holding up the header for each window.



That makes sense, thanks. 
will have pics by sat, if does not rain much.


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## nealtw (May 11, 2016)

ome said:


> That makes sense, thanks.
> will have pics by sat, if does not rain much.



That is just guess work, these things often stared out as just a deck then a roof was added with a beam holding up the roof with three or four posts, then windows get added and post are removed and it is anybodies guess what is supporting what. With those studs stopping at the short wall never mind the rot, would make it subject to flexing with any big wind.


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## ome (May 12, 2016)

nealtw said:


> That is just guess work, these things often stared out as just a deck then a roof was added with a beam holding up the roof with three or four posts, then windows get added and post are removed and it is anybodies guess what is supporting what. With those studs stopping at the short wall never mind the rot, would make it subject to flexing with any big wind.



Yes, I see what u mean regarding the wind.


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## ome (May 15, 2016)

Took awhile, and please excuse my lack of skill in sketching.


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## ome (May 15, 2016)

Ok,
Here are some photos
But,  I noticed the wood above all the windows is a 1" by 8".  
Here is another pic


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## ome (May 15, 2016)

Some photos were retaken with better lighting, sorry for the repetition.


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## ome (May 15, 2016)

Another pic of under floor


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## ome (May 15, 2016)

Yet another


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## ome (May 15, 2016)

And another


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## ome (May 15, 2016)

And yet another


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## ome (May 15, 2016)

And another


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## ome (May 15, 2016)

Yet another


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## ome (May 15, 2016)

And another


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## ome (May 15, 2016)

These are all the pics.  Took off the next 6' of interior knee wall. Mall beams are ok, the vertical 2 by 4's from underbthe 2 by 12 knee wall cap, to the top of subfloor in wall. 
Also, I noticed that the 2 by 4's in between each window, are really  2 by 6's. 
Thanks, 
ome


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## ome (May 23, 2016)

Here is the drawing:
Pics with legend to follow.


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## ome (May 23, 2016)

And we tested all the beams under the floor with a system of 1 to 5 and all wood beams were between one and two or rather one or two nothing worse than two.

We use the awl as you requested and it worked very well.


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## ome (May 24, 2016)

Here is a view from just beyond the hatch.


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## ome (May 24, 2016)

Here is a pic of showing the inside of the wall


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## ome (May 25, 2016)

This is a much better view of that corner. 
I would have to go under again and focus on that area.


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## ome (May 25, 2016)

Here it is 
Not really sure how to use it, can't remember if I did use it


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## ome (May 26, 2016)

Here is some info on it 
Not available for sale anymore. 
Torpedoe laser level with a magnetic base


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## ome (May 26, 2016)

And more info in the use


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## ome (May 26, 2016)

This is the other end of the angled joist from post 7
Looks to me like it goes to the wall
But will check out even further on friday.


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## nealtw (May 26, 2016)

ome said:


> This is the other end of the angled joist from post 7
> Looks to me like it goes to the wall
> But will check out even further on friday.



No that explains it good thanks


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## ome (May 26, 2016)

Excellent, your welcome


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## ome (May 31, 2016)

Good news, no dips , just a consistent angle from wall of house to outer wall of sun porch


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## ome (Jun 7, 2016)

Here is the  sketch with each 2 by 6 in between the window,


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## ome (Jun 10, 2016)

Here is a view of the front porch


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## ome (Jun 10, 2016)

And one of the empty sun porch


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## ome (Jun 10, 2016)

And another view of sun porch


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is the map


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is pic 1 of under front porch
A1


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is pic 2
A4


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is pic 3
A2


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is pic 4
B1


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is pic 5
A1B1


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is pic 6
C1


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is pic 7
A1B1


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is pic 8
B2 C2


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is pic 9
C4


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is pic 10
C3C2


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is pic 11
C2


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is pic 12
C6


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is pic 13
A4


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is pic 14
C1NW


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is pic 15
C4 looking ar A4-A2


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Summary a bit later


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is the shed estimate


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is a pic of the shed/barn showing perimeter foorings 
10" diameter by about 36" deep


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

And a # 2 and f the shed


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

And this pic # 3


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

And this pic #4


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

And this pic #5
Sorry for repeat
Thats about it to show how off he was


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

Here is a series od pics of the building of the sheds
Pic 1


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

And pic # 2 showing all the mistakes
All the floor joists and rim joists and lower framing are all treated. 
He was using two - 2 by 10's, but had to add two more, to reach the concrete pads, as  you can see in the picture


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## ome (Jun 23, 2016)

And this one , as pic 3,


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## ome (Jun 24, 2016)

Here is a pic of the South East corner


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## ome (Jun 24, 2016)

And here is the North East corner


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