# Sagging Roof on Shop



## Cooter85

I have a 24 x 40' shop with a bonus room upstairs. The roof is sagging in the middle, and one of the walls is bulging outwards. It has 2x10 rafters nailed to a ridgeboard 24" OC, and notched and nailed at the wall plates (2x6 walls). The collar ties are 2x8's, on every other rafter, and no ceiling joists, as the walls are 4' high in the upstairs room. The home was built in 1978, all lumber is nailed, no ties or mending plates or anything.

The bottom ends of the rafters are pulled away from the ridgeboard about 1.5" at the worst in the middle. And they have slid off the wall plate a few inches as well .

I tried lifting the ridge with a bottle jack and got it level, but the rafters need to be pulled in. How can I do this? 

My understanding is that without ceiling joists, there is nothing holding the bottom of the roof from spreading outwards from downward force, but putting joists on top of the walls would be right at chest level in the room. So could I reinforce the roof enough with other methods to not need joists at the wall plate?

I'd appreciate any advice. To a new homeowner trying to finish a man cave.


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## inspectorD

Sounds like your going to need a load carrying ridge beam, or some posts in the room.
I would go with the ridge beam, probably a laminated product. And you will need a way to get it into place because it will be one piece..or you will have posts.

An engineer can point you in the right direction for a few hundred bucks. Call around.


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## oldognewtrick

:agree: with inspector, hire an engineer to write a scope of work. Lots of moving parts should failure occur during a repair if not done right.


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## bud16415

First off I&#8217;m not a builder or a professional in any building trade so take my advice or suggestions as coming from a homeowner handyman such as yourself. The smart side of me is going to give you the smart advice you were given above. It also wont be a cheap date and most likely wont be a DIY fix. It will require most likely a crane, and going down thru the structure with support columns and into footings capable of carrying half the roof load both structure and snow etc. Windows and such will be involved.  

It looks like you are closing it in and discovered the problem. Drywall is going to add even more weight to a structure that could be close to failure. 

Now as the homeowner handy man it looks to me like it was just built by someone that thought they knew what they were doing with the collar ties and heavy rafters and trying to make a bonus area out of the space that new construction would be wasted and all trusses. The collar ties are part of the problem but IMO the method of construction of just nailing is the biggest problem. It looks to me almost the building was a homeowner built project or built by a guy with a 4&#8217; level hanging on the easy rider rifle rack in the back window of his pickup truck. It was never a structure that numbers were run on. Sometimes I say just stabilize a structure that has some problems, but with your knee wall bowing out and a drop in the roof line I say you are past that point. Your roof needs to be brought back into location then stabilized to keep it there. 

One question I have is the knee wall I just mentioned. Is that wall a short wall built on top of the floor and wall below it. Or is it balloon framed and an extension of the studs in the wall below? I think that is an important question for starters. As a short knee wall built on top and nailed down is a hinge point and offers little inward pull to resist spreading and the floor ceiling joists are not at all working with the collar ties to prevent spreading. 

I had a bunch of similar problems with the owner built garage that came with the short sale house we bought a couple years ago. Mine was much worse construction than yours and built by the owner from whatever scrap lumber he came across over many years. I had a builder come look at it and the advice was tear it down and start over. Both of them were not an option at that time and I took it on myself to correct and then over structure the stabilization. He stopped over after and said well it isn&#8217;t pretty but it should stand 100 years. 

I&#8217;m not encouraging you to get in over your head and we have no ideas what your background is and your skill levels are. Even as a DIY attempt it might cost a fair amount of money but I feel could be pulled back and fixed in a strong safe manner. I would start though by taking down just about everything you have done so far and get the roof problem fixed first.


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## Cooter85

Sorry, that is an older pic of the room. The last owner was putting 1/4" plywood walls and ceiling. I have since torn all the plywood off, and removed enough insulation to access what I need.

My plan was to straighten everything up, then put strong ties at the ridge and wall, and double the joists. I am not opposed to the idea of posts, or even building a wall in the middle of the room for load bearing.

My problem right now is how to pull the rafters inward to sit flush on both sides. Should I start from one end of the room and do one at a time, or use 3 or 4 come-alongs to pull them all at once? How do I attach the chain/cable/rope to the rafter? Drill a hole and slip a shackle through each one? Or go through the fascia and hook onto a steel bar outside to pull them all in? Lol


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## nealtw

Rafter ties or ceiling joists should be in the lower third of the height from the wall to the peak.
Measured straight up or on the angle the answer should be the same.

You show the birds mouth cut out to sit on the wall, compare that cut out to the one on the gable end. there is no guarantee that it was ever up tight.
Measure the width between wall at each end and in the middle, There are tricks to fixing this.

Before you finish insulating, lets talk about venting.


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## slownsteady

Just another homeowner chiming in, but FWIW, shouldn't the joists between the first & second floor be doing some of that wall support? Do we know whether the joists are running in the right direction and are securely fastened to the walls? Any sign of movement from them, as they should show a gap also?


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## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> Just another homeowner chiming in, but FWIW, shouldn't the joists between the first & second floor be doing some of that wall support? Do we know whether the joists are running in the right direction and are securely fastened to the walls? Any sign of movement from them, as they should show a gap also?


 Yes, I think he got his measurement by the look of the birds mouth and actual spread will be much less.


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## bud16415

slownsteady said:


> Just another homeowner chiming in, but FWIW, shouldn't the joists between the first & second floor be doing some of that wall support? Do we know whether the joists are running in the right direction and are securely fastened to the walls? Any sign of movement from them, as they should show a gap also?



Thats why I asked the question if the knee wall was an extension of the first-floor wall as a type of balloon framing or if it is a short wall attached to the deck like modern construction supporting a truss would be done. (still unanswered) The joists below play no role if the short wall can hinge on a row of nails. 

Framing must be looked at as a mechanics problem and the forces and angles work together. As an example, the lower the pitch the greater the tension in the collar tie. The higher the collar tie the greater the tension. In a truss, all the members for the most part are in compression and tension. A rafter and collar tie or just rafters and joists are the simplest of truss. Once the forces exceed the strength of the fastening system movement happens. 

The OP is asking questions no one knows the answer to yet. In general to answer his last question I think they would all have to be pulled back at once. As doing anything in part the rest of the structure would be resisting and thats when things start breaking. His effort to jack the ridge back up didnt work because he didnt have a horizontal force component to his plan.


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## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> Thats why I asked the question if the knee wall was an extension of the first-floor wall as a type of balloon framing or if it is a short wall attached to the deck like modern construction supporting a truss would be done. (still unanswered) The joists below play no role if the short wall can hinge on a row of nails.
> 
> Framing must be looked at as a mechanics problem and the forces and angles work together. As an example, the lower the pitch the greater the tension in the collar tie. The higher the collar tie the greater the tension. In a truss, all the members for the most part are in compression and tension. A rafter and collar tie or just rafters and joists are the simplest of truss. Once the forces exceed the strength of the fastening system movement happens.
> 
> The OP is asking questions no one knows the answer to yet. In general to answer his last question I think they would all have to be pulled back at once. As doing anything in part the rest of the structure would be resisting and thats when things start breaking. His effort to jack the ridge back up didnt work because he didnt have a horizontal force component to his plan.



We hope it is balloon framed,the floor would be holding the roof.
But if it is then the floor upstairs comes into question, if the joists are just nailed to the side of studs, jacking the roof from that floor could cause a whole world of trouble.
So I agree we need much more info about the structure before making suggestions.


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## bud16415

nealtw said:


> We hope it is balloon framed,the floor would be holding the roof.
> But if it is then the floor upstairs comes into question, if the joists are just nailed to the side of studs, jacking the roof from that floor could cause a whole world of trouble.
> So I agree we need much more info about the structure before making suggestions.



We dont know what we dont know. My guess is it is built just like you would frame a two story house only the second story walls are only 4 high. Good construction practice would put the first floor studs directly under the second floor studs and the rafters directly over them. that doesnt provide much strength for pushing that short wall out though.


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## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> We dont know what we dont know. My guess is it is built just like you would frame a two story house only the second story walls are only 4 high. Good construction practice would put the first floor studs directly under the second floor studs and the rafters directly over them. that doesnt provide much strength for pushing that short wall out though.



There is a fix for either way it is built, I just want to know how bad it is before getting into it.


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## Gary

I'm also just an amateur carpenter. I was employed by a general contractor building houses in my younger days, so that's where my experience comes from.  
If it were mine, and this may be overkill, but that's what I tend to do. I would run cable from the outside wall through the building and out the opposing side. Maybe one in the center would be enough. If not, use as many as needed to support the walls with somewhat even pressure. Maybe ready rod through the walls tied to the cable. Run the ready rod through steel plates on the outside or even timbers to distribute the load. then tighten up nuts on the ready rod until you have tension on the cable (s). At best you may be able to draw the bow out of the walls by tightening the ready rod bolts. If that doesn't work at least you'd have some back up support while figuring out a plan of action. 
I'm going on the assumtion that the structure may not be stable? This would at least provide some temporary stability, making it a little safer to work on.


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## nealtw

Gary said:


> I'm also just an amateur carpenter. I was employed by a general contractor building houses in my younger days, so that's where my experience comes from.
> If it were mine, and this may be overkill, but that's what I tend to do. I would run cable from the outside wall through the building and out the opposing side. Maybe one in the center would be enough. If not, use as many as needed to support the walls with somewhat even pressure. Maybe ready rod through the walls tied to the cable. Run the ready rod through steel plates on the outside or even timbers to distribute the load. then tighten up nuts on the ready rod until you have tension on the cable (s). At best you may be able to draw the bow out of the walls by tightening the ready rod bolts. If that doesn't work at least you'd have some back up support while figuring out a plan of action.
> I'm going on the assumtion that the structure may not be stable? This would at least provide some temporary stability, making it a little safer to work on.



You would pull it in before you knew how far you want to pull it.

If the OP is correct about it being out 1 1/2  inches and he shows that maybe the rafter has slipped out from the wall. Then the roof has moved with out the wall. If the walls are short knee walls on the platform, you may just have pulled wall out from under the roof.

You just don't have enough info to make suggestions here.


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## Gary

My main thought was just tension, on the walls, at least at first, not moving anything. At least that way there would be some measure of safety if the building is unstable. If the roof is slipping off the top plate, then support under the ridge pole. I guess what I'm saying is be darn sure it's supported well before work starts. 
But you are right, more info is needed to know for sure what is and isn't needed. More pics at least. Someone with experience on site to inspect would be the best solution if only for advise. If he's unsure at all, this probably isn't a good DIY project. Things could go south in a hurry.


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## Cooter85

It is not balloon framed. The upstairs walls are nailed to the floor. The floor joists run perpendicular to the direction of the roof rafters. They are 2x6s, 24" OC, and they rest on 8" beams in the walls, and one big 8x24 timber in the middle (my car engine hanger.  )

The birdsmouths are nearly flush against the wall plate on either end, and gets progressively worse towards the center. Same goes with the rafter contact with the ridgeboard.

My best guess is to start on the ends and pull one or two at a time, working toward the middle until everything comes together. My concerns are where and how to hook on to pull. Also, each board has 4-6 nails in it, and I would probably need to cut them loose or else risk pulling the knee wall in too far.


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## bud16415

Thanks for the information. 

Right now the only thing that is holding your building together is the collar ties and the only thing holding them is a handful of nails. The problem as you would expect is worse in the middle as the ends are gaining strength from the end walls below. The information that the floor joists are running the long way in the building is also not good news IMO. 

You are correct the nails will fight you with trying to pull things back as will all the sheathing attached to all the other rafters that you don&#8217;t plan to pull on. As I mentioned above the collar ties are taking it all and for movement to have happened the nails attaching the collar tie to the rafter had to start to twist. It is like a house of cards right now. You haven&#8217;t mentioned where you live and if there is the likelihood of a bunch of snow loading the roof in the next month or so? 

I still go with the first impression of the two experts here that bringing in a pro would be a good idea. I also know you have some abilities and desire to get this fixed yourself. Personally I would go back and do something very much like our member Gary suggested and make some attempt to stabilize what you have for now. 

Here are some ideas and only ideas and thoughts at this point. Assuming it was all framed dimensionally correct in the first place what has happened is the drop in the ridge is with doing the trig is equal to the spread in the walls. Things are kind of toggle-ing around points that want to rotate, base of the knee wall, connection of the collar ties and the ridge. 

You are going to need more collar ties at that height at least one for each pair of rafters and better one on each side of each rafter. I would be tempted to put those in first even if they had to be removed and done again after you pull the walls in. if they were attached with a single bolt .50 dia and washers and nuts they could take load and still can rotate during the correction. Oversize holes spaced in the right direction would be needed as the span of the collar tie will lessen when it goes up. That could be calculated. I would then cable the bottom of every other set of rafters. Strap come-along&#8217;s or cables with turn buckles etc. and snug it all up. At that point you could remove the old collar ties one at a time by sawing off the nails and replacing them like you did the new ones. Once I had the roof safely stabilized and freedom to move I would place 3 or 4 jacks against the ridge like you have and slowly pull all the bottoms in a little at a time and work the jacks up a little at a time. 

The roof didn&#8217;t start to fail one rafter at a time it slid out as one big heavy piece and IMO to bring it back it has to come back as one piece. 

The only other way I could think of fixing it would be wait for good weather and remove the whole roof and rebuild it from scratch. 
Again I&#8217;m not a pro and the above are just ideas to be taken with a grain of salt.


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## nealtw

This is the kind of job where we would bring in the engineer, the owner, all the employees and anyone else that was interested.
And kick around ideas until we talked about every sound or silly idea until a plan was developed.

Bud talked about the weight, that is killer, then there are jacking points. Jacking in the center could blow the peak apart..

If the sag in the roof is acceptable, making it stable where it is would be a good option.

Are the knee walls still plumb or are they leaning out?


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## bud16415

My understanding Neal is they are leaning 1.5&#8221; in the center and tapering better near the ends. 1.5&#8221; IMO is too much. 

As to the jacking I suggested that should only be done after the bottom is cabled tight and then even it shouldn&#8217;t be the main force resetting the roof it should just follow along taking some of the weight. 

I think a heavy snow load or strong winds could be the tipping point. I wouldn&#8217;t want to be up there when the knee walls kick out. When they go they are going all at once. Add up the weight of all that lumber and count the nails in those collars. I would be putting a pin / bolt thru every one of them first thing.


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## Cooter85

I live in Oregon, we get a bit of snow once in awhile.
The knee wall shown in the pic is bulged out about 1 1/2 in the middle. The other walls are fine.


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## bud16415

Here is a thought for securing the ridge. Four of these for each set of rafters at the top with holes thru the ridge board with all thread and nuts. These would hold and pull the top tight as you pulled the bottoms back.


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## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> My understanding Neal is they are leaning 1.5 in the center and tapering better near the ends. 1.5 IMO is too much.
> 
> As to the jacking I suggested that should only be done after the bottom is cabled tight and then even it shouldnt be the main force resetting the roof it should just follow along taking some of the weight.
> 
> I think a heavy snow load or strong winds could be the tipping point. I wouldnt want to be up there when the knee walls kick out. When they go they are going all at once. Add up the weight of all that lumber and count the nails in those collars. I would be putting a pin / bolt thru every one of them first thing.



I doubt that it near a tipping point, if you have ever seen a barn fall down.
But I do agree that fear here is a plus and every fear should be addressed.

Keep in mind that this took years to sag and the every board on the roof has 3 nails into every rafter that have all been stressed so moving this back into place will take some time as it will be 1/8 to 1/4" per day.

So you would brace one wall to the floor while you work with the other wall.
Chain from one side of the floor to the top of the wall or bottom of rafter with a turnbuckle and a couple Simpson hurricane tie downs to pull the wall back slowly.


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## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> Here is a thought for securing the ridge. Four of these for each set of rafters at the top with holes thru the ridge board with all thread and nuts. These would hold and pull the top tight as you pulled the bottoms back.



Four for each set , or a set for four rafter sets.
If you drill thru the ridge you would be close to the bottom of the ridge so I think you could go just below the ridge but I like the fact that you have adjustment.
Jacking would be tricky to say the least. if you jack the center you would want to remove nails from the rafters to the walls and do both sides at the same time. O you could jack one side on an angle to correct the other side but the structure of the floor really comes into question.


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## bud16415

nealtw said:


> I doubt that it near a tipping point, if you have ever seen a barn fall down.
> But I do agree that fear here is a plus and every fear should be addressed.
> 
> Keep in mind that this took years to sag and the every board on the roof has 3 nails into every rafter that have all been stressed so moving this back into place will take some time as it will be 1/8 to 1/4" per day.
> 
> So you would brace one wall to the floor while you work with the other wall.
> Chain from one side of the floor to the top of the wall or bottom of rafter with a turnbuckle and a couple Simpson hurricane tie downs to pull the wall back slowly.




Yes and I was suggesting the brackets above for the ridge also perhaps. Drill holes thru the ridge and bend some all thread to pull one rafter to the other to close the gap at the top at the same time you cable or come along the bottom. 

Yes I would go slow and move from one nut to the next half a turn at a time. Maybe give it a rest day here and there during the show. The permeant fix would then be to add more collar ties with thru bolts and leave the rafter pullers in place at the top. 

I still dont like it all sitting on that knee wall on the floor with the joists running the wrong direction. Would have to pull some of the flooring and get a look at whats below.


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## bud16415

nealtw said:


> Four for each set , or a set for four rafter sets.
> If you drill thru the ridge you would be close to the bottom of the ridge so I think you could go just below the ridge but I like the fact that you have adjustment.
> Jacking would be tricky to say the least. if you jack the center you would want to remove nails from the rafters to the walls and do both sides at the same time. O you could jack one side on an angle to correct the other side but the structure of the floor really comes into question.



Compared to restructuring the whole building and using a center beam or tearing the whole roof off and building it over I wouldn&#8217;t go cheap on the hardware. I would put one of those ties on each side of every rafter and drill thru the rafter and use bolts to sandwich them together no screws. Might cost 50 bucks for each 2 rafters. The threaded rod could go right below the ridge you are correct. if the nails haven't pulled all the way out they should go back in.


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## inspectorD

Do us all a favor and call an Engineer. You need more than cables on this with a knee wall and joists bowing out an inch and a half.
Its going to be 400 at the most for them to give you a documented fix, so if anything does go wrong, and insurance or the Building officials need it, you got it.

My money is on a ridge beam,with or without posts depending on what is below. We have done a 60 foot barn with one steel beam held up at the exterior gable end walls. Another was a pair of 18 inch LVL with a steel plate bolted in between ... I've done many. 
That or your going to need some angle  braces at the knee walls.
We did it all with pipe stagging and ladders.. not cranes, and it fit in right underneath the rafters. We lifted it at both gable ends with additional crib shoring under it.  We cut a hole into the wall and slid it in with a bucket of the Backhoe.

Engineer is my recommendation..  its not an easy fix unfortunately with wood species, nails under load, snow and wind  loads ect ect...

We can help with more advice from there.


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## nealtw

inspectorD said:


> Do us all a favor and call an Engineer. You need more than cables on this with a knee wall and joists bowing out an inch and a half.
> Its going to be 400 at the most for them to give you a documented fix, so if anything does go wrong, and insurance or the Building officials need it, you got it.
> 
> My money is on a ridge beam,with or without posts depending on what is below. We have done a 60 foot barn with one steel beam held up at the exterior gable end walls. Another was a pair of 18 inch LVL with a steel plate bolted in between ... I've done many.
> That or your going to need some angle  braces at the knee walls.
> We did it all with pipe stagging and ladders.. not cranes, and it fit in right underneath the rafters. We lifted it at both gable ends with additional crib shoring under it.  We cut a hole into the wall and slid it in with a bucket of the Backhoe.
> 
> Engineer is my recommendation..  its not an easy fix unfortunately with wood species, nails under load, snow and wind  loads ect ect...
> 
> We can help with more advice from there.



I would agree with having an engineer, but all to often they suggest the most expensive fix. 
A beam is not just a beam it is also point loads and footing and if there is a door below there will be more beam. All that gets very  expensive.

The best bet is to develop three complete plans with the guesses that the common people make. And then call in the engineer and have him check the weights and do the calculations and approve or improve one or more plan.

I agree that a beam would take the weight and stop the pushing on the walls but converting the rafters to simulate scissor trusses would stop the push and leave the weight on the walls.


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## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> Compared to restructuring the whole building and using a center beam or tearing the whole roof off and building it over I wouldnt go cheap on the hardware. I would put one of those ties on each side of every rafter and drill thru the rafter and use bolts to sandwich them together no screws. Might cost 50 bucks for each 2 rafters. The threaded rod could go right below the ridge you are correct. if the nails haven't pulled all the way out they should go back in.



A complete tear down would not be needed cutting the sheeting to manageable pieces to fix like 10 or 12 ft  would be my last suggestion.


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## bud16415

inspectorD said:


> Do us all a favor and call an Engineer. You need more than cables on this with a knee wall and joists bowing out an inch and a half.
> Its going to be 400 at the most for them to give you a documented fix, so if anything does go wrong, and insurance or the Building officials need it, you got it.
> 
> My money is on a ridge beam,with or without posts depending on what is below. We have done a 60 foot barn with one steel beam held up at the exterior gable end walls. Another was a pair of 18 inch LVL with a steel plate bolted in between ... I've done many.
> That or your going to need some angle  braces at the knee walls.
> We did it all with pipe stagging and ladders.. not cranes, and it fit in right underneath the rafters. We lifted it at both gable ends with additional crib shoring under it.  We cut a hole into the wall and slid it in with a bucket of the Backhoe.
> 
> Engineer is my recommendation..  its not an easy fix unfortunately with wood species, nails under load, snow and wind  loads ect ect...
> 
> We can help with more advice from there.



He would need a 40 long beam or posts running down thru the building at one place and then use two 20 beams. Beam would be entering the building at about 20 above ground. None of that is a problem but it is clearly out of the realm of what I could do as a one-man DIY project. 

I agree seeking the help of an Engineer is always a good choice to make and if they recommend the above repair I would think they would also recommend a certified team do the work. 

I have little idea of the cost of a project like this I know 400 bucks for the report I wouldnt have an issue with if it was me. Can we give the OP a ballpark cost on this project? I know my sister just had a couple maple trees taken down with a bucket truck a 2 day project and it was 8 grand. Would something like this labor and material be doable for 20  30 k ? 

As to cables and pulling my friend has some strap type pullers that he uses for tree work, ratchet type. I have seen him pull a one ton truck sideways on the street using it as an anchor point and another time snapping a 10 limb like a stick when he got carried away trying to keep it away from a house when cutting it. So you can buy or rent some pretty strong stuff to pull a wall with. 

Again OP any ideas you get from me are coming from a non pro DIY handyman.


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## bud16415

nealtw said:


> A complete tear down would not be needed cutting the sheeting to manageable pieces to fix like 10 or 12 ft  would be my last suggestion.



I agree it might not have to be 100%. He would get into quite a bit more that way at the least new shingles and all that. 

I have to think it slid as a unit it has to come back as a unit. Pulling on one place the connection I dont think could be made strong enough to move it all. 

With a beam you will still have to do most of the above to push the beam up once it is in there and then something to close the gaps to get the wall to come in.


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## nealtw

If a beam went in the walls and roof still have to be put in place first.
The header over the window would have to be made bigger with barring points to the floor and then the beam over the garage door has to be increased, with point loads to the ground that may require bigger footing.
40 ft would be out of the question so you would need a post in the center of the man cave and below a post and a new footing or a beam to spread that load to each side and point loads and footings and the footing or two and possible beam and footing at the other end.
All the walls and roof has to held in place until the beam is lifted and installed, after the collar ties are removed.
Or the roof is held up from below while the peak is cut out to allow the beam to be dropped in from above.

Inspector: did I miss anything.


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## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> I agree it might not have to be 100%. He would get into quite a bit more that way at the least new shingles and all that.
> 
> I have to think it slid as a unit it has to come back as a unit. Pulling on one place the connection I dont think could be made strong enough to move it all.
> 
> With a beam you will still have to do most of the above to push the beam up once it is in there and then something to close the gaps to get the wall to come in.



When I was talking about chain and turn buckle I did not mean to say one would do the job. I like the turn buckles because they are slow and strong and cheap. I would think one ever 6 or 8 ft  and the chain has to be the good tested stuff. Anybody selling chain should be able to tell the difference for tested and untested, if not buy somewhere else.


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## slownsteady

Reading along on this, two things cross my mind: Is there is a real concern to working from the inside? Could a post (column) be placed and snugged up to the ridge to relieve some stress while working on this? I understand it is a second floor so it would be column over column. Has the OP checked the plumb of the lower exterior walls?


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## nealtw

slownsteady said:


> Reading along on this, two things cross my mind: Is there is a real concern to working from the inside? Could a post (column) be placed and snugged up to the ridge to relieve some stress while working on this? I understand it is a second floor so it would be column over column. Has the OP checked the plumb of the lower exterior walls?



The floor should be holding everything in place but yes the whole structure would have to be looked at before anything was done. That would be weights and stress factors that would best be left to the engineer.

What ever method of pulling is done, the size of the equipment for the weight being pulled, the amount of stress a plywood floor can take and what needs to be done to increase the structure below to take that stress.
At the very least I could see some blocking in the floor and maybe a temp something from side to side below like a 2x10 to give the floor more of a box structure while the pull is being done.


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## nealtw

2 methods that come to mind to hold everything in place after it is straighten out.
1. cut slots in floor so full length studs can be brought up from below and build a new balloon frame wall inside both the upper and lower walls, tie the studs to original studs with plywood.

2. Scissor the rafter with angle ties from the area of the rafter tie on one side to the area of the collar tie on the other side.

Rafter ties are in the lower third
Collar ties are in the upper third

As the gable would not need this, some box up framing would allow for the window.


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## nealtw

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-heavy-equipm...rs/1127518157?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true


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## bud16415

nealtw said:


> http://www.kijiji.ca/v-heavy-equipm...rs/1127518157?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true



Most farmers have a dozen of those hanging in the barn along with 20 log chains is what we call them. I agree with what you said above I would put one every other rafter. I would look into renting them. I do know some guys would go buy them use them and then return them. I would never do that but some people would.


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## inspectorD

nealtw said:


> If a beam went in the walls and roof still have to be put in place first.
> The header over the window would have to be made bigger with barring points to the floor and then the beam over the garage door has to be increased, with point loads to the ground that may require bigger footing.
> 40 ft would be out of the question so you would need a post in the center of the man cave and below a post and a new footing or a beam to spread that load to each side and point loads and footings and the footing or two and possible beam and footing at the other end.
> All the walls and roof has to held in place until the beam is lifted and installed, after the collar ties are removed.
> Or the roof is held up from below while the peak is cut out to allow the beam to be dropped in from above.
> 
> Inspector: did I miss anything.



Well.. this is why he needs someone there to give him the answer... We are speculating on everything and throwing out a wild cost does nothing for the guy,,but scare him to not do it the right way..I mean..who wants an Inspector hangin around..:nono::rofl:

 Basically, you need the two end supports or even a center post always supported to the ground. The footings are probably just fine, and again we need the expert.. Bottom line is with the low ceiling height and the kneewalls not being balloon framed. He has two options. 
A wall in the center to hold the ridge and building from spreading any further,
or a large ridge beam installed directly under the existing ridge supporting the rafters. Most likely with some hardware and bracketing as you lift getting installed. 
The sequence is very important, thus the engineer...or at the least, a really good structural carpenter to guide you through it. 
Safety..is number one.:help:

I dont usually hang around here and throw out the engineer .. this is different.


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## Cooter85

The bottom floor of the shop seems built very sturdy, all walls are plumb and square, no noticeable cracks in the foundation. The problems seem to be only on the top walls and roof. I'm wondering if the upstairs room was a later addition to the shop, as there doesn't seem to be the same level of craftsmanship or attention to detail as the lower floor.

I appreciate the concern with safety and caution. I dont feel that it is anything beyond my capability, or that warrants opening a can of worms with an engineer. Whatever plan I act on will be done slowly and incremental, with an extra pair of eyes or two on it.

So 1/2" bolts in the collar ties with oversized holes. Attach steel rope with turnbuckles on every other rafter, and lift the ridge with 3 jacks while pulling the roof together over a few days or a week. Then reinforce with extra collar ties, hurricane clips, rafter hangers, angle brackets on the walls, etc, etc. Sounds like a winning plan.

Does 1/4" steel rope sound adequate? Where should I drill the holes to attach it? Above the birdsmouth, or behind it?


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## inspectorD

Cooter85 said:


> The bottom floor of the shop seems built very sturdy, all walls are plumb and square, no noticeable cracks in the foundation. The problems seem to be only on the top walls and roof. I'm wondering if the upstairs room was a later addition to the shop, as there doesn't seem to be the same level of craftsmanship or attention to detail as the lower floor.
> 
> I appreciate the concern with safety and caution. I dont feel that it is anything beyond my capability, or that warrants opening a can of worms with an engineer. Whatever plan I act on will be done slowly and incremental, with an extra pair of eyes or two on it.
> 
> So 1/2" bolts in the collar ties with oversized holes. Attach steel rope with turnbuckles on every other rafter, and lift the ridge with 3 jacks while pulling the roof together over a few days or a week. Then reinforce with extra collar ties, hurricane clips, rafter hangers, angle brackets on the walls, etc, etc. Sounds like a winning plan.
> 
> Does 1/4" steel rope sound adequate? Where should I drill the holes to attach it? Above the birdsmouth, or behind it?




Good Luck.


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## nealtw

Cooter85 said:


> The bottom floor of the shop seems built very sturdy, all walls are plumb and square, no noticeable cracks in the foundation. The problems seem to be only on the top walls and roof. I'm wondering if the upstairs room was a later addition to the shop, as there doesn't seem to be the same level of craftsmanship or attention to detail as the lower floor.
> 
> I appreciate the concern with safety and caution. I dont feel that it is anything beyond my capability, or that warrants opening a can of worms with an engineer. Whatever plan I act on will be done slowly and incremental, with an extra pair of eyes or two on it.
> 
> So 1/2" bolts in the collar ties with oversized holes. Attach steel rope with turnbuckles on every other rafter, and lift the ridge with 3 jacks while pulling the roof together over a few days or a week. Then reinforce with extra collar ties, hurricane clips, rafter hangers, angle brackets on the walls, etc, etc. Sounds like a winning plan.
> 
> Does 1/4" steel rope sound adequate? Where should I drill the holes to attach it? Above the birdsmouth, or behind it?



Whow, slow down you didn't read half of what was talked about up above.

If you want to go off half cocked with little or no idea of all the dangers, and without consulting an engineer, I too am out.


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## Cooter85

Dont get me wrong, I am very concious of the fact that I can do even more damage, or worse, collapse a roof on top of myself. Thats why I am doing my research, and throwing it out to you fine folks for advice, and I greatly appreciate all the help so far. The plan is still being developed, and I don't intend on going further than what feels safe.

I simply can't afford to pay 10's of thousands of dollars to rebuild it, so I'm gonna work with what I've got. I know the best way would be to get a professional to redesign and rebuild, but I'm thinking more like whats gonna give me at least 20 or 30 more years.

I might come off like I lack a healthy dose of fear, but I am just 'cautiously optimistic.' Then again, you only live once, right?


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## nealtw

Some times you can try something and if it doesn't work go to plan B.
This not one of those places. When you consider all the things that could go wrong, time is on your side.
You know the saying, For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. You have to be really sure you understand what every action gives you and how to make it work for you. 

Your statement above, let's look at that. I just have a few question.
How much pressure is pushing the structure out side ways.
How much weight can 1/4 cable pull, with some particular clamping method that you were thinking about.
Drill a hole in  trusses and pull.
How much weight could you pull before the rafter splits, releasing all that pressure at one time.
Will the floor structure be structurally sound enough to pull that kind of weight.
IF we agreed this would be a good plan, these are the questions you ask an engineer. No body here can come up with the answers.

The cheapest way would be to stabilize it just where it is.

So what kind of budget would you think would be max.


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## bud16415

I understand engineering fairly well but I am not a structural engineer. There is a lot to be said for bringing in an expert in whatever specific field your problem involves. It is always money well spent. 

I also look around where I live and see all these wonderful century old homes that are rock solid still and barns built from 12x12 hand hewn hard wood timbers 150 years old and some still built today by the Amish here. I marvel at the engineering that was done by the seat of their pants. It was only 50 years ago when I grew up and even then a far different time when things were still seat of your pants engineered to a large degree. It is true though the bad designs and plans aren&#8217;t around as a testament as they fell down a long time ago. So what I see is the best or the best. 

Back on topic: 
Inspector D laid out two workable solutions. A central beam and support columns or a central wall down thru the building and into adequate footer or footings. The beam would give you free span like you have now with the exception of one or two columns inside the building. The wall would divide both floors in half except for doorways that could be added to it. 

The discussion Neal and I were having with you is a third option and that is trusses built in place better than what you have now that are failing. The two rafters and a collar tie are a very basic truss system and easy to calculate the strength of. The collar ties are in tension and most likely more than strong enough in tension given good attachment points at the end. They didn&#8217;t stretch 1.5&#8221; so the nails had to move. If the builder had put one on each pair of rafter we most likely wouldn&#8217;t be talking. If they had been attached better we wouldn&#8217;t be talking. The only other mode of failure that would allow movement would be if the rafters were bending between the collar and the birds mouth. That is easy to check with a straight edge and you didn&#8217;t mention a bow, but you should check for that. When I was a kid builders used to spike these together with huge nails that were extra long and then clinch them by bending over the end. I remember my dad showing me how to clinch a nail as a kid and him explaining how that will never pull out. No one does that today that I know of. 

As to what method you use I think you have a good idea now of your options and if you hire an engineer you will know the questions to ask him and his plan of action would outline all the details of the how to. If you go seat of your pants we can offer ideas etc . just realize nothing we say is cut in stone.

I like the commercial ties that I feel could be used to close the top and hold it closed in the future when used as a hurricane tie. How many and what size would be the question. They looked like they are 7 bucks each. I doubt I could make anything in my shop for less even with free labor. As to the cables / chain and how to attach. Holes and shackles plating the sides of the rafter where the bolts or holes would be located or even how hard the pull would be, are unknown. Would you pull both sides at once or pull one at a time as Neal suggested pulling from the floor and the strength of that attachment point are questions to be answered? Cables are quite strong but do stretch. I would want cable stretch to be minimum and would upsize to keep it at that. Chain is a better way to go as it has a really low stretch factor. 

You could start off by counting the rafters and the length and figuring the weight add in the weight of the sheathing and shingles and come up with a weight of the roof on one side. Knowing the angle of the roof you can figure the reaction force needed to hold the roof at its base if you had no collar ties. Simple statics problem. Then knowing how far up the collar ties are you can calculate the tension required for one collar tie to hold that force again basic statics problem. Then take that force and divide it by the number of ties you have. To get an idea how many you might need. The force you came up with at the bottom isn&#8217;t what you need to pull in with it is the force to just hold it. Then it gets tricky. How much additional force will it take to straighten those bent nails back and react against all the twisting and set that the wood has taken over the years. I don&#8217;t know how to figure that and it will be interesting to see how an  engineer figures it. If it is 2x or 5x or 10x the holding force maybe they know from experience. 

Stabilizing it would most likely be fine as a fix except you would be left with gaps and a bent outside wall. Would that be a problem down the road if you go to sell it. You would need something to show it was now sound and an engineer&#8217;s report saying it was good and proof of the fix would go a long way. 

All things to think about.


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## nealtw

Balloon framed structures were built like this and worked.
I would suggest building this inside from the bottom up.
By cutting a hole in the floor just big enough to work a stud up from below and build a new wall inside both sides and connect that to the original studs.

Then with the help of an engineer, things might be pulled into place or locked into place as is.


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## Cooter85

Ok, I called a contractor to come take a look, I will see what he says. I was just going to go for it, but if more experienced guys are telling me I need help, I will get a professional opinion.

This is my first home, only been there a little over a year, so I want to do everything myself if I can. Also, just had our first kid 2 months ago, so money is tight. If I can save a few thousand by doing myself, I would rather take that option. Appreciate the word of caution.


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## nealtw

Cooter85 said:


> Ok, I called a contractor to come take a look, I will see what he says. I was just going to go for it, but if more experienced guys are telling me I need help, I will get a professional opinion.
> 
> This is my first home, only been there a little over a year, so I want to do everything myself if I can. Also, just had our first kid 2 months ago, so money is tight. If I can save a few thousand by doing myself, I would rather take that option. Appreciate the word of caution.



Congrats on the baby and the first home.
There is no one here that would like to see you hurt or with out a garage but we are more than willing to help.
Just sometimes understanding is more important than a getterdone attitude.

See what your contractor has to say , throw some ideas that you have got from here and see what he says.

Be sure to let us know what he is saying. 
Watch out for the guy that doesn't think the engineer is needed.

Contractors don't like coming out so you can pick his brain and there will be no job for him. Offer to pay him an hour or two.


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## slownsteady

I don't know what an engineer would cost in your area, but having one draw out a plan does not mean you are on record for doing the work or are committed to having a contractor do it. If it cost a few hundred bucks and you can execute the plan yourself, you may be saving that much in lost attempts or wrong equipment. And there is always the possibility of a hybrid DIY, where you come to an agreement with a contractor to supervise your labor and help where necessary.


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## nealtw

Engineers are fine with weights and measures, and they are good at telling you what the end product should look like. 

That is why you have to be ready with the plan of your own or anticipate his plan.

They do tell you what size beam the post holding up and the footer below that, Doing the work and how to do it is not his specialty. 
If something needs to be pulled  or lifted, he can tell you how much it weighs or where the stresses are and can look at equipment and attachment and make suggestions on the specs for those.

That's why I said; have two or three fully buttoned down plans, before you talk to one. Be prepared to argue for the fix you would like to do and make him look stuff up and do the math.


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## bud16415

:agree:

Neal is spot on here. If you do the math yourself or he does it the math is the math. When you bring in a contractor he knows his capabilities and if he has a big crane in his shop and a crew of ten guys he won&#8217;t think twice about running a 40&#8217; beam down thru your building. A DIY homeowner has a whole different set of capabilities and those form his idea of a best process. One may not be better than another. This job runs the whole range of solutions IMO. The simplest being just stabilize the roof and fortify what is supporting it right where it is at and call it a day. 

That is what I did in my garage. It wasn&#8217;t worth the money to fix correctly as I could have tore it down and built new for less. It needed a roof but had 4&#8221; of swayback in the structure. The Amish guy I hired to put tin on it wanted to jack it back to straight and I said no shim it out to flat and cover it. Inside I had stabilized all the weak points so it wouldn&#8217;t get worse and it is sound just not pretty. 

This building looks to me to be more worthy of getting it both safe and sound and also looking better. I felt that was the OP&#8217;s intent also. And if not perfect at least better. Budget is a big concern when we bought this property a couple years ago I assessed the garage and didn&#8217;t like it but the effort and money had to be directed into the house for at least a year and a half. Garages seem to come in second place when the house needs a new kitchen. Women get their way like that. So I did the minimum to keep the garage standing at first and then added the roof in two years to keep what I had done from getting wet. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.


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## nealtw

Here is a sample of rafters converted to scissor trusses


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## bud16415

Those would be strong but the OP would lose a lot of head room on the sides.


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## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> Those would be strong but the OP would lose a lot of head room on the sides.



They can go up higher and get the same effect..


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## bud16415

nealtw said:


> They can go up higher and get the same effect..



Good idea. If he covers the ceiling doing that it would look like a gambrel from the inside.  :thbup:


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## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> Good idea. If he covers the ceiling doing that it would look like a gambrel from the inside.  :thbup:



There are only two choices.  Stiff walls , stiff roof or both.. Lowering the ceiling improves insulation and venting too.


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## Snoonyb

Actually there are three, and since the other two are 20/20 hindsight, this will also be.

The failure is occurring in the middle of the ill-advised and constructed addition above the floor platform, not on the gable ends.

So, had the builder halved the space and built an interior partition wall, with a doorway, the ridge would not be bowing and the wall would not have begone to rotate.


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## bud16415

snoonyb said:


> actually there are three, and since the other two are 20/20 hindsight, this will also be.
> 
> The failure is occurring in the middle of the ill-advised and constructed addition above the floor platform, not on the gable ends.
> 
> So, had the builder halved the space and built an interior partition wall, with a doorway, the ridge would not be bowing and the wall would not have begone to rotate.



yep..........


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> Actually there are three, and since the other two are 20/20 hindsight, this will also be.
> 
> The failure is occurring in the middle of the ill-advised and constructed addition above the floor platform, not on the gable ends.
> 
> So, had the builder halved the space and built an interior partition wall, with a doorway, the ridge would not be bowing and the wall would not have begone to rotate.



The building is 40 ft so yes it would have been less with a center wall, it would still be a problem non the less, I think

This often shows up in garages and they are only 20 to 25 ft long.


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## Snoonyb

The center wall would on be 24', the same as the gable end walls.


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## bud16415

My hindsight analogy is if the builder had put a collar tie at each rafter and thru bolted them or nailed and clinched them. It would have cost a couple hundred bucks more and it would be fine now. If the collar takes the force the knee wall sees none.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> The center wall would on be 24', the same as the gable end walls.


Yes I understand that but it would still be 20 ft from the gables so that would not be close enough. You would still have a problem somewhat less.


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## Snoonyb

That may be true, eventually, but nothing as dramatic as at present.


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## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> My hindsight analogy is if the builder had put a collar tie at each rafter and thru bolted them or nailed and clinched them. It would have cost a couple hundred bucks more and it would be fine now. If the collar takes the force the knee wall sees none.



No, collar and rafter ties are both called for, for a reason. even if you could hold the top together, the rafters sag and let the walls out.

When you build it you only have so many choices.
Stiff walls like balloon framing.
Ridge beam
Trusses.
Rafter ties, the floor would do this if the walls were stiff.

I just talked to an engineer about installing a beam.
He said the same as I thought the roof has to be brought back into shape first.
He said he has called for beams and inspected the beams after they were installed and didn't know how they get the roof back in shape.


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## bud16415

nealtw said:


> No, collar and rafter ties are both called for, for a reason. even if you could hold the top together, the rafters sag and let the walls out.
> 
> When you build it you only have so many choices.
> Stiff walls like balloon framing.
> Ridge beam
> Trusses.
> Rafter ties, the floor would do this if the walls were stiff.
> 
> I just talked to an engineer about installing a beam.
> He said the same as I thought the roof has to be brought back into shape first.
> He said he has called for beams and inspected the beams after they were installed and didn't know how they get the roof back in shape.



The rafters will only sag if they are undersize. They are free to bow in any roof with the ends fixed and connected to the floor joist.  I do agree this framing of the knee wall should never been set on the floor like that and not ties to the first floor framing balloon or other. But in this roof the collars were not enough or most likely not connected well enough for the spread. 

My feeling is the rafter size is fine.


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## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> The rafters will only sag if they are undersize. They are free to bow in any roof with the ends fixed and connected to the floor joist.  I do agree this framing of the knee wall should never been set on the floor like that and not ties to the first floor framing balloon or other. But in this roof the collars were not enough or most likely not connected well enough for the spread.
> 
> My feeling is the rafter size is fine.



OK but all rafter roofs have both rafter and collar ties, you won't find an engineer that would approve what he has.

Vaulted trusses always have the inside at a lesser pitch. The lower member acts as both the collar and the rafter tie.


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## Snoonyb

nealtw said:


> OK but all rafter roofs have both rafter and collar ties, you won't find an engineer that would approve what he has.
> 
> Vaulted trusses always have the inside at a lesser pitch. The lower member acts as both the collar and the rafter tie.



The reason that an engineer would not approve what he has, is because of the knee walls, which have rotated.

In conventional framing when the ceiling joist are perpendicular to the rafters, collar ties are common and an acceptable practice.


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## nealtw

Snoonyb said:


> The reason that an engineer would not approve what he has, is because of the knee walls, which have rotated.
> 
> In conventional framing when the ceiling joist are perpendicular to the rafters, collar ties are common and an acceptable practice.



Yes ceiling joists are rafter ties.


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## Snoonyb

The point being, that both are not required.


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## bud16415

Of course the strongest place to put the collar is by making it the ceiling joist for the floor below. My house has rafters and no upper collar tie just the ceiling joist and it has been standing 150 years. 

This building was designed with 2 serious flaws. 1 is the ceiling joists running 90 to the rafters and 2 the knee wall is not solidly supported from the first floor framing to prevent it from rolling out such as balloon framing may have done by putting the studs in bending. It well could have still rolled out though just from the first floor plate and could have been a bigger problem. Something has to react the outward force and the only thing in the design to do that is the collars that have proved to be not enough or not attached well enough. 

You are correct none of this may be to code or pass approval. 

The question remains he has two problems one being how to correct the structure and two what is the correct fix within his budget hopefully and two that will still give him a useful area. All that has to be done in a safe manner and the end result should remain safe.


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## nealtw

Even with your joists going the other way , your sub floor is holding it and you have intersecting walls up and down,.


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