# Residential circuit problems [receptacles/breakers]



## Quatrix (Aug 19, 2018)

Good day experts. I need your help with several issues with my home circuitry: 

 Intermittent power coming through cable to my bathroom receptacle. The situation is as follows: in the subject bathroom I gained access to the receptacle and disconnected all pigtail wires. Next, I left connected the hot, neutral, and ground wires to the receptacle and kept it exposed for a few days (outside of its box), while monitoring the voltage with a multimeter. Throughout those few days I tested the receptacle by plugging in various appliances, such as a hair dryer. Satisfactory results. However, after the 3rd or 4th day, receptacle voltage disappeared, I no longer had 120VAC, circuit breaker tripped. If I reset my breaker power comes back. 

My breaker panel is somewhat a mess too. Another breaker (not the one mentioned above) is stuck in 'tripped' state and does not reset. 

I have a single pole switch upstairs which functioned to turn on/off ceiling light going downstairs into the basement. It no longer does the job. Upstairs I have two 3-way switches next to the 1-pole switch (all in one row) which do function fine and turn on/off ceiling light going upstairs and another light outside (front door). I also have three 3-way switches next to my front door, once you step into the house. They all function fine, one turns on/off  ceiling light going upstairs, another one turns on/off light outside (front door), and last one turns on/off the light going downstairs into the basement. How is it possible that I had a 3-way and a single pole switch both working 'together' in turning on/off the same ceiling light (downstairs into the basement)?

I also have a problem with another receptacle not getting 120VAC in my 2nd bathroom.
Summary: All of the written above unsats are located upstairs and breaker panel (basement). Altogether, I have two duplex receptacles which do not receive 120VAC (two bathrooms), two unsat circuit breaker behavior, and a single pole switch which stopped functioning to turn on/off basement light. 
My questions: From the unsats listed above, what seems to be the probable cause? If this is a fault, how do I find it and what specific tools I should purchase? A toner and probe, a TDR, or something else which will identify an open or a short? Which specific tools are reliable, because if I would need to open my walls I would want to get as close to the fault as possible. I guess in this situation price of instruments is not an issue, as long as they are reliable and help me clear the unsats.


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## Snoonyb (Aug 19, 2018)

Welcome.
"Summary: All of the written above unsats are located upstairs and breaker panel (basement). Altogether, I have two duplex receptacles which do not receive 120VAC (two bathrooms), two unsat circuit breaker behavior, and a single pole switch which stopped functioning to turn on/off basement light."

The basement control switch is easily replaced and only require the same screwdriver you used to remove the bathroom recepticle.

If you are not familiar with working behind your service distribution panel's, dead front panel, hire an electrician to change the faulty breaker.

Are you sure that there is not a GFCI recp. or breaker controlling your bathroom recep?

As for general tools; An inexpensive VOM, A multi-tool wire stripper and a 6 in 1 screwdriver.


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## Quatrix (Aug 20, 2018)

*Snoonyb,*
Thanks for the feedback; however, your advice is no benefit to me. I already tried changing the breakers and the switches and receptacles and still that did not solve the problem. The problem is more involved and just a simple screwdriver is not going to solve it. Looking for a lot more advice. I will take the responsibility of being the electrician if you are willing to provide suggestions to resolve these problems. 


Snoonyb said:


> Welcome.
> "Summary: All of the written above unsats are located upstairs and breaker panel (basement). Altogether, I have two duplex receptacles which do not receive 120VAC (two bathrooms), two unsat circuit breaker behavior, and a single pole switch which stopped functioning to turn on/off basement light."
> 
> The basement control switch is easily replaced and only require the same screwdriver you used to remove the bathroom recepticle.
> ...


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## Quatrix (Aug 20, 2018)

Snoonyb,
Tripping breaker issue is caused after I have disconnected everything from the main feeder cable going from basement breaker panel, upstairs to my bathroom. When I opened my box, I disconnected all pigtail wires from the receptacle in that same bathroom. The receptacle worked for a few days, (this is where I have tried connecting the hair dryer), after day 3, it stopped working, and I no longer had 120VAC between hot and neutral. I have already tried replacing the breaker which resulted in the same condition as before. How do I locate the short? Please provide details.  

As far as my other tripped breaker goes, I tried replacing it as well and that also did not solve the problem, it also trips and stays like that.

At the top of my stairway, I only had the single pole switch which controlled ceiling light going downstairs into basement. It no longer functions and I have no more upstairs switches which can control basement light. The only way I can still turn on/off basement ceiling light is by standing next to my front door (from the inside) and turn on/off one of my 3-way switches controlling the basement light.


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## Snoonyb (Aug 20, 2018)

"Tripping breaker issue is caused after I have disconnected everything from the main feeder cable going from basement breaker panel, upstairs to my bathroom. When I opened my box, I disconnected all pigtail wires from the receptacle in that same bathroom."

Is this one operation or two?

" The receptacle worked for a few days, (this is where I have tried connecting the hair dryer), after day 3 it stopped working, and I no longer had 120VAC between hot and neutral. I have already tried replacing the breaker which resulted in the same condition as before."

The problem is, is that with all this disconnected, you say that you still have voltage and small appliances still function, and if that's the case, the power is still on, from somewhere.

"How do I locate the short? Please provide details." 

If the breaker trips after everything is disconnected from the hot pair fed from the breaker, then the short is in the hot feed, so, disconnect the hot, white and grnd conductors from the breaker, the neutral buss-bar and the ground clamp, and with both ends of the feed in free clear air do resistance checks across all three.

"As far as my other tripped breaker goes, I tried replacing it as well and that also did not solve the problem, it also trips and stays like that."

You'll need to identify everything that's off and start eliminating them one by one.  

"At the top of my stairway, I only had the single pole switch which controlled ceiling light going downstairs into basement. It no longer functions and I have no more upstairs switches which can control basement light. The only way I can still turn on/off basement ceiling light is by standing next to my front door (from the inside) and turn on/off one of my 3-way switches controlling the basement light."

You probably have a loose connection in the hot bundle in the switch "J" box.


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## Quatrix (Aug 22, 2018)

Snoonyb,

I would like to correct myself in the statement that I had two faulty circuit breakers. In fact, I only have one, let’s assign number two to it. The bathroom receptacle (where I connected the hair dryer) is connected to this C.B. #2 and once I disconnected all of the other pigtailed wires, I was able to move the handle to OFF and then back to ON. Whereas before, when all wires were connected, I was not able to do that at all. However, even now when all pigtail wires are disconnected and I only have black (hot), white (neutral), and ground coming up from my breaker to the receptacle (no pigtails), 120VAC disappears with time. Sometimes, it disappears in 20 minutes and sometimes it could take 3 days for it to disappear. Please check my understanding of this situation: I have black, white and ground all fed from my C.B. #2 directly to bathroom receptacle. By untwisting all of the 'extra' white, black, and ground wires, I removed any other loads on this C.B. #2. To perform a continuity check I should twist my black and white wires together and then go downstairs to my breaker panel; remove my black, white, and ground wires from their bus bars so that they are all in free air and hook up my meter in between the black and white. Repeat for ground wire. What happens if I get an open? What should I do? Could it also mean that these wires seen in the bathroom do not come directly from the breaker, but come from another location, for example? Then, certainly, if these are not direct feeder wires from C.B. #2 I wouldn't get a continuous path up to my bathroom and meter reading must show infinity. 

P.S. Please see images attached below. 






Snoonyb said:


> "Tripping breaker issue is caused after I have disconnected everything from the main feeder cable going from basement breaker panel, upstairs to my bathroom. When I opened my box, I disconnected all pigtail wires from the receptacle in that same bathroom."
> 
> Is this one operation or two?
> 
> ...


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## JoeD (Aug 22, 2018)

Sounds like a loose connection. Look for a junction box between bathroom and the panel.


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## Quatrix (Aug 22, 2018)

JoeD said:


> Sounds like a loose connection. Look for a junction box between bathroom and the panel.


Ok, where would I look for this J-box? It seems to me the problem is more complex... I have another bathroom with dead duplex receptacles and a single pole switch that does not work in turning on/off basement ceiling light. I mean how do I find the other end of wires efficiently? Even if I find some box with wires, how do I know the whites and the blacks are spliced here and lead to the bathroom where I tested the receptacle with a hair dryer? Which instrument should I use?


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## Snoonyb (Aug 22, 2018)

1st lets again address the basement lights; At the switch box, you need to remove all three switches from the box, in performing this you will find a wirenut with 4 black conductors, 3 of these conductors should be attached too the 3 switches and the one connected to the single pole switch controlling the basement lights is loose or has become disconnected. To repair this remove the wire nut and join the loose conductor with the other 3, then using a linemens plier, twist the bundle together and install the wirenut.

"However, even now when all pigtail wires are disconnected and I only have black (hot), white (neutral), and ground coming up from my breaker to the receptacle (no pigtails), 120VAC disappears with time. Sometimes, it disappears in 20 minutes and sometimes it could take 3 days for it to disappear."

You may have a loose connection at the breaker; Remove the dead front panel, shut the breaker off and tighten the screw on the breaker holding the conductor, and try it again.

"To perform a continuity check I should twist my black and white wires together and then go downstairs to my breaker panel; remove my black, white, and ground wires from their bus bars so that they are all in free air and hook up my meter in between the black and white. Repeat for ground wire."

This is my method; With both ends of the 3 conductors in free air test between grnd and the other 2 individually, all should read open, the grnd too neutral joined then grnd too hot joined then neutral to hot joined, which should all read continuity.

"What happens if I get an open? What should I do? Could it also mean that these wires seen in the bathroom do not come directly from the breaker, but come from another location, for example? Then, certainly, if these are not direct feeder wires from C.B. #2 I wouldn't get a continuous path up to my bathroom and meter reading must show infinity."

A "J" box would be indicated by something else being off, when the breaker is off.


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## WyrTwister (Aug 23, 2018)

First of all , you may have more than one defect .  So , you may have to take this in phases , not all at once .

     Circuit breakers are usually labeled with odd numbered CB's on the left and even numbered CB's on the right .

     # 2 is the upper right hand CB .  The photo shows it is tripped .  Is it one that has been replaced ?  I would probable start with it .  And / or any defects on the same floor as the panel .

     I suggest you make a list , and even a rough drawing of all the receptacles , switches and light fixtures that are having problems .  Probably by floor , on separate pages .

     Often , the defect or defect will be located on the first device on a circuit that has a problem .  Or , on the last device on that circuit that does not have a problem .

     If you do not have an accurate panel directory , start out by making one .  This will help you ( maybe a little later on ) determine ( passably by process of elimination ) how the cable is routed and what circuit goes to where .

     Sometimes in a receptacle that is behind furniture or some other object .  Sometimes for so long the home owner has forgotten is is even there .  Sometimes behind the largest / heaviest piece of furniture in the whole house ( Murphy's Law ) . 

     Now then , I think some one has mentioned GFCI receptacles .  These are typically located in kitchens ( do not think you mentioned any problems there ) , bathrooms , garages , outdoor receptacles ( often problems there due to water infiltration ) and any where else around water .  Check these areas .

     Now , for right now , I suggest you DO NOT take any 3-way switches apart .  For a home owner , they often prove to be a BIG puzzle , that a home owner may not be able to solve .

     Before you take anything apart , label and document each wire & where it is terminated .  And take photos .

     Please report back , your progress .

     I have over 35 years in the trade .  If I were to walk on sight and start trouble shooting this situation , it might still take some time to trace it out .  Please do not expect this to get resolved simply / quickly .

     Each electrician probably has a little different method routing circuits / cable .  And you do not have any way to know how he / she did it .

Best of luck ,  
Wyr
God bless


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## mabloodhound (Aug 23, 2018)

That basement light might be back fed from that 3 way by the door.  Possibly because of some prior funky wiring.  I would remove that connection entirely and wire the basement light correctly to that single switch that used to work.  The bathroom outlet sounds like a loose connection.  Look for another box that may be feeding that receptacle.


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## WyrTwister (Aug 23, 2018)

I have had quite a few service calls that came down to receptacles that used what I call " back stabbed " wiring .  Receptacles where the wires were stripped back and the bare ends plugged / stabbed directly into holes in the back of the receptacle .  Thankfully that is no longer done .

     Now , the wires are terminated at the screws .

     I have also had cases where the device was physically broken , interrupting the current path .

     I have had outside receptacles get wet and burn up .  Receptacles around washing machines , that over flowed and got receptacles wet .  Even on the opposite side of the wall .  Or underneath a mobile home ( heat tape receptacle ) .

     Any place around water is suspect .  Water and electricity normally is a bad combination .  And may have a GFCI receptacles or circuit breakers in the circuit .

Wyr
God bless


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## Quatrix (Aug 23, 2018)

Thank you all for your replies. Let us focus in on the bathroom receptacle and attempt at solving this problem first.
One thing that stuns me is the C.B. #2 behavior; after I reset that breaker it may work for unexpected amount of time. I will be back at my parents home in a week where I will be able to write back on my progress; however, last time I was involved in this project I disconnected all of the extra black and white wires tied together with a wirenut from the bathroom receptacle, went to the basement to close my C.B. #2, went upstairs, and measured 120VAC between black and white wires strictly coming up through a hole in the box. Next, I plugged in a hair dryer and it worked for a while. I figured the problem is solved. I was mistaken because on the 3rd day I went back to check on the receptacle and it was dead.
So, most likely those wires are probably OK, otherwise I wouldn't get 120VAC (at least for 3 days they are). Even if there was a J-box between C.B. #2 and bathroom receptacle those wires would also be OK because I wouldn't have got 120VAC. Why are we getting these spontaneous trips of the breaker? I can try buying a different breaker and see if that fixes anything but I doubt it will. Besides a loose connection or a bad breaker what could be the cause?


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## Snoonyb (Aug 23, 2018)

You'll need to find what else is on the circuit and what is not on.

This tool will help you trace cables in the walls; https://www.grainger.com/product/5V...0494!&ef_id=W39t2gAAAG-1OLuT:20180824023050:s

They are also sold at Lowes and Home desperado.


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## WyrTwister (Aug 24, 2018)

Quatrix said:


> Thank you all for your replies. Let us focus in on the bathroom receptacle and attempt at solving this problem first.
> One thing that stuns me is the C.B. #2 behavior; after I reset that breaker it may work for unexpected amount of time. I will be back at my parents home in a week where I will be able to write back on my progress; however, last time I was involved in this project I disconnected all of the extra black and white wires tied together with a wirenut from the bathroom receptacle, went to the basement to close my C.B. #2, went upstairs, and measured 120VAC between black and white wires strictly coming up through a hole in the box. Next, I plugged in a hair dryer and it worked for a while. I figured the problem is solved. I was mistaken because on the 3rd day I went back to check on the receptacle and it was dead.
> So, most likely those wires are probably OK, otherwise I wouldn't get 120VAC (at least for 3 days they are). Even if there was a J-box between C.B. #2 and bathroom receptacle those wires would also be OK because I wouldn't have got 120VAC. Why are we getting these spontaneous trips of the breaker? I can try buying a different breaker and see if that fixes anything but I doubt it will. Besides a loose connection or a bad breaker what could be the cause?


     Nail through a Romex cable ?

     When that CB trips of you turn it off , make a list of all the other receptacles , switches & lites that are also on that circuit .

Wyr
God bless


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## Quatrix (Sep 8, 2018)

Good day experts. I am finally ready to report back on my findings. I will describe my actions in sequence, in the manner as I encountered additional unsats:

*Purpose*: Determine if black, white, and ground wires seen at the upstairs bathroom receptacle are a direct feed from the breaker panel downstairs.   

1.       Unscrew the hot black wire from C.B. #2.

2.       Unscrew the neutral white wire from the neutral bus bar.

3.       Unscrew the ground wire from the grounding bus bar.

4.       Go upstairs and measure following for VAC:

a.       Between white and ground = 120VAC…

b.       Between black and ground = 120VAC…

c.       Between black and white = 29VAC…

5.       After this oddity, I went back to my panel and measured for VAC on the opposite end:

a.       Between white and ground = 120VAC…

b.       Between black and ground = 120VAC…

c.       Between black and white = 29VAC…

6.       I was puzzled at first. Then, I realized I had my white, neutral wire, part of the Romex bundle with the hot black wire going from C.B. #2, connected with a wire nut to another neutral white wire going to a transformer. This transformer’s hot black wire was also connected with a wire nut and went to C.B. #15. In my understanding, this transformer feeds my chime (door bell) which gets about 28VAC. Now, once I disconnected the transformer’s white wire from the wire nut and the black wire from access to C.B. #15, I measured for VAC and got 0.

7.       Then, I went upstairs, measured for VAC, obtained zero again. I disconnected all of my conductors from the receptacle such that they were all in free air.  

8.       Next, I performed an open check

a.       Between Black and White = infinite

b.       Between Black and Ground = infinite

c.       Between White and Ground = infinite

9.       Followed by a continuity check where I connected together two wires being tested downstairs and measured for resistance upstairs, at my receptacle box:

a.       Between Black and White = continuity

b.       Between Black and Ground = continuity

c.       Between Ground and White = continuity

10.   Now I was confident that the Romex going to my receptacle box upstairs is, indeed, the feeder cable with nothing else connected.

11.   So, I was able to hook up my receptacle upstairs and connect another receptacle in the other bathroom from it. They are SAT as of today.

12.   At this point, I have several problems remaining:

a.       chime circuit is not connected/not working

                                                              i.      Any suggestions as to why I encountered the problem with my bathroom receptacle being dead and could I have a short anywhere from the transformer secondary to the chime?

b.       3-way switch problem

                                                              i.      Even though there are red wires tucked into the back of the box upstairs, I tested them for continuity with the wires going to the downstairs switch, no continuity.

                                                            ii.      I also have a split receptacle in my living room, which seems to be tied with the box upstairs…

                                                          iii.      I’m just not sure how to hook up another 3-way upstairs if there are no traveling wires going downstairs?

13.   Please see images attached and offer any suggestions. Thank you.


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## Quatrix (Sep 8, 2018)

I'm uploading additional images as I reached the max limit of 10 on the previous one. Please see additional images attached. Thank you all for the support.


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## nealtw (Sep 8, 2018)

Have you looked at the wires of the switched outlet, was it perhaps wired as half switched that has been changed.


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## Quatrix (Sep 9, 2018)

No, I haven't looked in too much detail at the split receptacle due to lack of time. However, I just got a call from my father; C.B. #2 has tripped again. He tried changing the actual circuit breaker to a brand new one and still, it tripped. Then, we disconnected the branch circuit going off of the bathroom receptacle to another receptacle in the other bathroom (this is bathroom with no tub). At this point my father was able to turn C.B. #2 ON. Currently, we are patinetly monitoring this breaker to see if it gives us any more surprises. Experts, please advise. Is there any explanation for this behavior? Please make any observations or suggestions for attack. Thanks again for your time.


nealtw said:


> Have you looked at the wires of the switched outlet, was it perhaps wired as half switched that has been changed.


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## nealtw (Sep 10, 2018)

The breaker is seldom the problem and now that you have a new one, we can be sure the breaker is just doing it's job.
You say it will stay on for a while and turn off, that is an indication that something is changing, wires heating, bending and touching something? One leg of the circuit is the problem but only when turned on.
When this breaker is on, does everything in the house work, when it is off, find everything that is not working


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## TGMcCallie (Sep 10, 2018)

Sounds to me like you need an good electrician to properly check out your system.   Could result in a hazard either to your health or fire to your home.


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## Quatrix (Sep 10, 2018)

TGMcCallie said:


> Sounds to me like you need an good electrician to properly check out your system.   Could result in a hazard either to your health or fire to your home.


If I wanted to hire an electrician, I wouldn't be asking for advise. My intent is to learn it myself; consider it as I am doing this for my own knowledge. If you have any suggestions to make particularly in how to solve this problem, please do.
I thought that is the purpose of a forum - help those in need.


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