# GFI Outlet / Seperate Light Switch - Light won't turn off!?



## cheri28 (Feb 5, 2013)

My husband is wiring a GFI and separate light switch into the bathroom. The GFI also controls an outlet across the room &#8211; these components are working. He capped all of the whites together and we had 120v&#8217;s to both the main light (which we tested and it turned on) and the light over the vanity (which we tested with power meter). However, with the whites all capped together the lights could not be turned off.  He tried a few different ways, but can&#8217;t seem to wire it so that the GFI and outlet will stay on and the lights will turn on and off. Do you have any suggestions or diagrams that you can share to how to wire the light switch properly so it will turn on and off? I have attached some pictures with the hope that they'll help. THANK YOU!!

Edit: I have attached a picture of how it is hooked up right now _(with this hook up, the lights do not work at all)._ *<--- That is incorrect. With this hookup the lights DO work, just will not turn off. * :help::help::help:

Also - here is what my husband said: 
*The GFCI is independently wired to the source. All's well with the GFCI and bridged outlet...power to both. Do the neutral wires for both light fixtures need to be connected to the source neutral? The source load wire is split with one leg to the GFCI and one to the switch. The light fixture loads are bridged to a common single wire hooked to the top screw of the switch with the source load connected to the bottom screw. The two fixture neutrals are wire-nutted to each other. Why are the lights constantly on, regardless of the switch's position?*


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## Wuzzat? (Feb 5, 2013)

cheri28 said:


> He tried a few different ways


With just three wires wired or not wired to just three terminals there are about 30 wrong ways and only one right way to do it so the odds are not in your favor, and this is assuming all the components work correctly.
Knowing the meaning of the wire colors will reduce the uncertainty but sometimes the colors will mislead you.
I guess there is an off chance that the switch contacts are welded closed.

An electrician will be along presently but in the meantime you could bone up on the colors.  

Welcome, Ms. Cheri number 28.


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## cheri28 (Feb 5, 2013)

Thank you! 

Oh gosh - it feels like there are even more than 30 different ways to get it wrong (because I think we've tried that many!). I believe there are just black and whites, plus the grounds. He's a busy guy - so I'm trying to do some research for him, so please forgive my extreme lack of knowledge. :help:


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## Housedoctor57 (Feb 5, 2013)

You do not have a neutral white or blue in your picture coming from the lights back tot he other 2 white neutrals. Only neutral I see is between the 2 lights is between themselves.


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## cheri28 (Feb 5, 2013)

Any step by step process would be greatly appreciated!


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## Housedoctor57 (Feb 5, 2013)

Cheri,
This is a simple approach. 
Find the wires going to the actual light fixtures. You should have a black, white, and possible green or bare copper to each fixture. Obtain a sacrificial 2 wire extension cord, like to use on a table lamp. With the extension cord UNPLUGGED, cut off the end where you connect the lamp. Now, connect the white wire to one of the 2 extension cord leads. Connect a single way light switch to the other wire on the extension cord. Connect the black wire going to the light fixtures in the bath to the other screw on the switch. Plug the extension cord into a working wall outlet and test the circuit, the lights should switch off and on. 
If that works, remove the 2 wires from the extension cord connection.
Connect the white wire to the other white wires in the wall box. Connect the black wire from the light fixtures to the LINE side of the GFIC. Turn the breaker that controls the GFIC on and have a drink!


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## kok328 (Feb 5, 2013)

There is no neutral or ground going to the lights.  The lack of neutral to the lights will prevent them from coming on not off.  Disconnect the hot wire from the output side of the light switch, the lights should go out but, I don't understand how they are ON to begin with.
I don't think your drawing is totally accurate to what has been wired up.


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## Wuzzat? (Feb 5, 2013)

Yes, the lights are in parallel as they should be but why does the switch have three wires to it?  It's not a ground.


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## cheri28 (Feb 5, 2013)

The lights do turn on, they just won't turn off. (edit)


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## nealtw (Feb 5, 2013)

Pigtail short wires from the load side of the gfi and attach the light and the extra plug to those pig tails. the source wires go the line side of the gfi.


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## Fireguy5674 (Feb 6, 2013)

I drew a diagragm but I cannot get my scanner to work.  So I will try to describe what I drew.  If your drawing is correct, as was pointed out, you have no neutral or ground to the lights so they should not work at all.  The source wire coming in should be hooked to the line side of the GFI, Black wire on gold screw side and the white wire on the silver screw side.  The bare wire goes to the Green screw.  That will provide power to your GFI.
Now from the LOAD side of your GFI on the gold screw you will need to run a black wire to your plug in and to your light switch.  A separate black wire should run from the other switch terminal to the light fixture to both black wires there.  From the silver screw on the LOAD terminals you will need to run a white wire to the receptacle and to the light fixture which will attach to both white wires there.  The bare neutral source wire should be attached to the green screws on both receptacles, the switch and a green ground screw or a green wire pigtail on the light fixture.  In your wiring diagram you show the white wires in the fixture tied to each other but not to a source neutral and your bare grounds run from the switch to the light fixture but not to the source ground.  By wiring everything off the Load side of the GFI everything in the bathroom will be GFI protected.  If you do not want that move the power and neutral wires for the light to the LINE side of the GFI.
Looking at your picture I cannot tell where the two wires on the one terminal of the switch come from.  If the wires got reversed and the wire to the light got put with the power source wire then the lights would not turn off although if your drawing is accurate then they should not light at all.


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## Fireguy5674 (Feb 6, 2013)

Me again.  I went back and read your husbands description again about six times.  In answer to his first question, Yes the neutrals from both of the fixtures need to be tied to the source neutrals.
"The source load wire is split with one leg to the GFCI and one to the switch. The light fixture loads are bridged to a common single wire hooked to the top screw of the switch with the source load connected to the bottom screw."  AS I read that there is a source wire hooked directly to the wire going to the lights.  If they can find a ground source yes they will be on all the time.
Remove the source wire to the switch completely and tie the light neutrals to the LOAD neutral from the GFI.  Your lights should work correctly and be GFI protected.  Check your grounds to be sure everything is grounded.


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## kok328 (Feb 6, 2013)

Unfortunately, we can't have the lights going off if/when the GFI trips.  You will need to power the lights directly from the source and not through the GFI.  The only thing I saw missing in the OP's diagram was a lack of neutral & ground to the light fixutres.


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## Wuzzat? (Feb 6, 2013)

Wire your lights in parallel and wire this assembly in series with a working switch.
Put the two wires coming out of this series/parallel arrangement across the line side or the load side of the GFCI.  
If you want to be kind to later workers color the wires appropriately.

For less drama, put a lamp across the open switch and make sure this makes all bulbs glow dimly.  If you control two Xw incands, use a 2Xw for this test lamp.  Don't do this with CFLs or LEDs.

If necessary and if there is a high school nearby get one of their science geeks to advise you, but don't let him/her actually work with, or touch, your wiring.


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## Fireguy5674 (Feb 6, 2013)

kok328 said:


> Unfortunately, we can't have the lights going off if/when the GFI trips. You will need to power the lights directly from the source and not through the GFI. The only thing I saw missing in the OP's diagram was a lack of neutral & ground to the light fixutres.


 
I may be wrong since I don't have a code book handy, but I thought anything that can be reached from the sink, ie possible ground or maybe water, had to be GFI protected including the light switch or light fixture.  Or have I been doing it wrong for several years?


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## nealtw (Feb 6, 2013)

I would protect the light also, it's better to be alive in the dark. Both white and black from the source go to the line side of the gfi.


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## Housedoctor57 (Feb 7, 2013)

I guess they got it working and now don't need our ideas. I really hate it when nobody has the courtesy to come back with what was wrong or to say it works now......


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## nealtw (Feb 7, 2013)

Housedoctor: It may be a little early for that judgement, but evan if you are right, I try to immagine the discussion in that house. 
Total frustration when what appears to be a simple job just will not come together. Sometimes the wife finding the answer on the internet will solve the problem but may do little to clear the air. Keeping us happy may be last thing on the to do list.


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## cheri28 (Feb 7, 2013)

Thanks all for your help. I think we are just going to hire an electrician - we're just at a loss (including following diagrams). He's tried so many different ways and that darn light won't shut off.


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## cheri28 (Feb 7, 2013)

(and I wasn't ignoring any of you - sorry you thought that).


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## cheri28 (Feb 7, 2013)

nealtw said:


> Housedoctor: It may be a little early for that judgement, but evan if you are right, I try to immagine the discussion in that house.
> Total frustration when what appears to be a simple job just will not come together. Sometimes the wife finding the answer on the internet will solve the problem but may do little to clear the air. Keeping us happy may be last thing on the to do list.


 
Thank you for this - you're right - the level of frustration is absolutely there.


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## Fireguy5674 (Feb 7, 2013)

I think I attached a wiring diagragm to this we will see if it works.  Maybe it will help simplify things.  I hate to have you hire an electrician (nothing against them) but this should be pretty straight forward.  Plus the sense of accomplishment when it works.


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## cheri28 (Feb 7, 2013)

Fireguy5674 said:


> I think I attached a wiring diagragm to this we will see if it works. Maybe it will help simplify things. I hate to have you hire an electrician (nothing against them) but this should be pretty straight forward. Plus the sense of accomplishment when it works.


 
I don't see any attachment. Hmmm - but that may be operator error on my end as well. I wonder if it would work better if you private messaged it to me? Then I can post it for others who may be in this situation. 

And, thank you for your effort.


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## Fireguy5674 (Feb 7, 2013)

:banana:  This is me because I think I managed to upload my diagragm.  I hope it makes things clearer than mud.  Let me know if it helps.


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## cheri28 (Feb 7, 2013)

Fireguy5674 said:


> :banana: This is me because I think I managed to upload my diagragm. I hope it makes things clearer than mud. Let me know if it helps.


 
AWESOME!!!! THANK YOU!!! I'll print this and show it to him!! ::


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## nealtw (Feb 7, 2013)

nobody was upset cheri.
Let's start over step by step.
1. the source white and black go the line side of the gfi
2. Make a white and black pig tail. (wire about 8 to 10 onches long)
3 Connect the pigtails to the load side of the gfi.
4 Now you have four wires connected to the gfi, double check that white is to white screws and black to black screws, they are marked.
5. With a wire nut connect the white pigtail to the white from the light and the white from the other plug.
6. Make another black pigtail and wire nut it to the first pigtail along with the black from the other plug.
7. Now you have a black wire from the light and a black pigtail, they both go the switch.
I hope this helps.


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## JoeD (Feb 7, 2013)

Are you sure the switch is working?


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## cheri28 (Feb 8, 2013)

Thank you, all!! He got it working using FireGuy's diagram!! We really appreciate all of your help!


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## Housedoctor57 (Feb 8, 2013)

Congrats and thanks for posting the results. 
Go see a movie or have a nice dinner on the money you saved.


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## Sparky723 (Mar 9, 2013)

nealtw said:
			
		

> Pigtail short wires from the load side of the gfi and attach the light and the extra plug to those pig tails. the source wires go the line side of the gfi.



No. Do not wire this way.


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## nealtw (Mar 11, 2013)

Sparky723 said:


> No. Do not wire this way.


 
An expanation might be helpfull


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## Sparky723 (Mar 12, 2013)

nealtw said:
			
		

> An expanation might be helpfull



Put lights on load side, then they are slave to the gfci. So when it trips, its lights out.


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## nealtw (Mar 12, 2013)

I know it says that in the code, just before the excepts. I don't quite understand the arguement. The lights are already slave to power outages and the breaker but what you are saying is sorta in the code and is industry practise. Fair enough, but just saying no to someone with out explanation dosn't help people learn. 
Thanx, Neal


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## Sparky723 (Mar 13, 2013)

nealtw said:
			
		

> I know it says that in the code, just before the excepts. I don't quite understand the arguement. The lights are already slave to power outages and the breaker but what you are saying is sorta in the code and is industry practise. Fair enough, but just saying no to someone with out explanation dosn't help people learn.
> Thanx, Neal



Got a code reference?


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## nealtw (Mar 13, 2013)

No but I found this discussion.
http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-5453.html


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## Sparky723 (Mar 14, 2013)

nealtw said:
			
		

> No but I found this discussion.
> http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-5453.html



Guess I should live in Mass.
Checked it out-if new install, then it is permissible-but not required.
I just would not want to be on toilet or in shower and lights go out just b/c the GFCI tripped for some reason.
To me, it's an inconvenience. I wire bathrooms where the home run goes to the switch box, power goes from here to GFCI and then onto other outlets and power to one side of the switch and the lighting switch leg to the other side. This way the lights are controlled only by the switch.
It's unpractical to take power to the outlets and THEN to the switch for lighting. I've never seen it done and will NEVER do it that way.
I only want other outlets to be slave to the GFCI.
To me, lighting is separate from power. It's the way I've done it for 20+ years.


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## nealtw (Mar 14, 2013)

Fair enough but go back on this whole story and see if anyone asked if the switches were far enough away from the shower or the placement of the fan and the reach of a hand held shower head. Cheri and her hubby were to frustrated to answer twenty more questions, so help them get it working, as safe as possible and then go back and ask the other questions and make suggestions on possibly changing it. Just don't assume everything else is safe in the room, if you were there you would have looked at all this stuff.
If one of these kicks while you are on the toilet, you do have a problem


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## Sparky723 (Mar 14, 2013)

nealtw said:
			
		

> Fair enough but go back on this whole story and see if anyone asked if the switches were far enough away from the shower or the placement of the fan and the reach of a hand held shower head. Cheri and her hubby were to frustrated to answer twenty more questions, so help them get it working, as safe as possible and then go back and ask the other questions and make suggestions on possibly changing it. Just don't assume everything else is safe in the room, if you were there you would have looked at all this stuff.
> If one of these kicks while you are on the toilet, you do have a problem



Neal, 
I read that first paragraph 2-3 times and I have no idea what your talking about.


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## nealtw (Mar 14, 2013)

Maybe this will help. They talk about a hand held shower
http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_...person-tub-shocking-experience.html#post79825


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## kok328 (Mar 14, 2013)

kok328 said:


> Unfortunately, we can't have the lights going off if/when the GFI trips.  You will need to power the lights directly from the source and not through the GFI.  The only thing I saw missing in the OP's diagram was a lack of neutral & ground to the light fixutres.



Sorry Sparky, I was out-numbered on this one.  I tried but, fell on deaf ears without a code reference.


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## nealtw (Mar 15, 2013)

OK I will try this one more time for those here that are so knowledgable about their trade they have nothing more to learn.

Let's go over what we know and what we don't know.
Looking at the photos in the first posting. We can see what looks like a new box with old wires, no gromets. More than 1 wire on a screw, at least one nic in a white wire, at least one spot on black wire with green tape, let's assume that a repair, the green tape may or may not be a electrical tape.
We also know the OP and her hubby are not afraid to get into electrical work and with the problem presented we can figure they don't have a lot of knowledge on the subject.
Do you think these people called an electrician when the fan was replaced or the light was replaced.
You're right, you have know way of knowing even if they were changed. That's the point. WE DON"T KNOW.
WE DON"T KNOW if the light is wired correctly
WE DON"T KNOW if the fan is wired correctly
WE DON"T KNOW where the switches are in relationship to the shower
WE DON"T KNOW where the fan is in relationship with the shower
WE DON"T KNOW if there is a hand held shower head that could reach the fan

WE DO KNOW this is referrenced in the code
WE DO KNOW the code dose have some ifs,buts, and maybes on the subject.
WE DO KNOW wiring the lights and fan on the load side of this thing  in itself dose not create a fire or shocking risk.
WE DO KNOW the frustration level was already high if we read the posts. I mean read them like you care.
WE DO KNOW how to hook this thing up so a bad light or fan will not kill anyone.
WE DO KNOW if we solve the first problem the frustrasion level will be gone and we can ask more questions and make more suggestions about proper practice in that box the light the fan and then explain that this should be wired the other way.

I am sure the OP has given up with all this crap and has cancelled their membership and are back watching Holmes on homes and we have lost the chance to help them with just the things wrong in that box.
Maybe Hubble should put a night lite on it, so we can find the TP in the dark.


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## Fireguy5674 (Mar 15, 2013)

So when all this gets boiled down, according to the code, putting the lights on the load side of a GCFI is a personnel preference thing.  Everyone has their own preference and reasons but either way is right according to the code.  Is that a correct summarization?


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## nealtw (Mar 15, 2013)

You would need to be a lawyer to figure that out. All I'm saying is you use all tools available to make a situation safe. Just quoting code is not the answer in all situations.
I just want people to take more time, ask more questions, look for more details and make better suggestions.
When people say thing like ," I'm a licenced whatever" they are implying that all others suggestions are to be ignored becuase they know best. Which would be fine if they were the one that pointed out things others missed, but that isn't the situation here.
These same people may read this and say well Neal's just wrong, but from now on they will be looking for the details. Job Done.


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## JoeD (Mar 15, 2013)

Fireguy5674 said:


> So when all this gets boiled down, according to the code, putting the lights on the load side of a GCFI is a personnel preference thing.  Everyone has their own preference and reasons but either way is right according to the code.  Is that a correct summarization?



That is correct with one exception. If the light is in the shower or tub area then GFCI is required.


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## Sparky723 (Mar 15, 2013)

JoeD said:
			
		

> That is correct with one exception. If the light is in the shower or tub area then GFCI is required.



Joe,
Do you have a code reference?


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## Sparky723 (Mar 15, 2013)

JoeD said:
			
		

> That is correct with one exception. If the light is in the shower or tub area then GFCI is required.



551.53 discusses luminaries in showers at an RV park or in RV.
552.54 discusses luminaries in a trailer park shower.

Not disagreeing (yet),lol. Just want to see code.


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## JoeD (Mar 15, 2013)

Confused with Canadian code. 
3-320. (Paraphrase) Luminaires controlled by a wall switch in damp or wet locations where the wall switch is less than 1m but not less .5m from tub must be protected by GFCI.


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