# Floor Height after tile



## rdharbis1 (Feb 14, 2012)

I am removing two layers of linoleum in my kitchen and dining room for the purpose of putting in a tile floor.  My home was built very well in the mid-60's on 16 in centers with 1 x 6 planks laid on the joists at at a 45 degree angle and what appears to be at least 3/4 inch plywood on top of that.  I want to put down backerboard and tile this floor but the floor height after applying these layers seems to me would be too high.  I will have to cut the french door and the pantry doors and there are three doors out of this area onto hardwood floors and each of those thresholds will have a significant rise.  I can make comment on what I want to do, but what I want to know is what are you supposed to do.  Is the height of the floor irrelevant in renovations like this?
BTW:  The linoleum in the kitchen area and the transition to the hardwood areas is level at the moment.
Thanks,


----------



## isola96 (Feb 14, 2012)

How high will you think you'll be?


----------



## rdharbis1 (Feb 15, 2012)

I guess with the thinset, backerboard, thinset, tile = ~1 inch?  I guess it is not that bad, I just don't recall seeing it like this in other homes (I look at new homes for ideas and design patterns)


----------



## isola96 (Feb 15, 2012)

rdharbis1 said:
			
		

> I guess with the thinset, backerboard, thinset, tile = ~1 inch?  I guess it is not that bad, I just don't recall seeing it like this in other homes (I look at new homes for ideas and design patterns)



You have planks under ur 3/4" ply right? that will be we're your to high I could be wrong cuz I don't know how thick ur planking is. U plan on putting a saddle under the entry door?


----------



## rdharbis1 (Feb 15, 2012)

The planking sub-floor is older lumber and are 1 x 6 running at a 45 degree angle with the floor joists.  I can see this construction from the basement.  I renovated my bathroom last summer and completely gutted the entire room, all the way to those planks.  The original construction had put the tile in a mortar bed supported with mesh wire on just the planks.  There was a layer of roofing felt between the planking and mortar bed.  I took all of that out (down to the planking) and put in 3/4 inch plywood on top of the planking and then backerboard and then tile and there is about an inch rise as you enter the bathroom.  I put a marble threshold  under the door and the bathroom tile is about 1/4 inch higher than that.
Back to the kitchen, I would like to remove the flooring down to the planks, make adjustments that need to be made there for support and lay a thinner, rigid underlayment of some type.  I don't know what that would be.  On top of that underlayment, I would begin the tile installation starting with the backerboard.
Sorry, I am not familiar with the term 'saddle'.  I do not want to remove the exterior door unless absolutely necessary.  What to do about the threshold has everything to do with what is done with the floor/subfloor.
And thanks for the replies and considerations ... I am not a pro at this, just a DIY guy.  I am not against getting the pros if this is bigger than I realize.


----------



## nealtw (Feb 15, 2012)

You don't need backer board just tile over the plywood. If you are going after the height you will want to remove the 3/4 plywood and replace it with your backer board but then the ship lap may be to flexible and you would change that to plywood. I would think you have a good floor just the way it is, just tile it.


----------



## rdharbis1 (Feb 15, 2012)

Thank you nealtw, that's kind of what I was hoping to hear!
I have been given many suggestions, the best of which is just to tile right over the linoleum.  Heck, I could start tonight if that is an appropriate plan of action.


----------



## isola96 (Feb 15, 2012)

nealtw said:
			
		

> You don't need backer board just tile over the plywood. If you are going after the height you will want to remove the 3/4 plywood and replace it with your backer board but then the ship lap may be to flexible and you would change that to plywood. I would think you have a good floor just the way it is, just tile it.



I was not about to say tile over ply as I would be hunted on this site but yes there u go some one else said it for me lol


----------



## nealtw (Feb 15, 2012)

Remove the lino and check for squeaks as that old floor was just nailed down, I would screw thru to the joist and add shorter screws to tighten up the 1x6.


----------



## isola96 (Feb 15, 2012)

rdharbis1 said:
			
		

> Thank you nealtw, that's kind of what I was hoping to hear!
> I have been given many suggestions, the best of which is just to tile right over the linoleum.  Heck, I could start tonight if that is an appropriate plan of action.



That would save so much trouble but morter will never work on the linoleum.

Is the linoleum glued down or floating? 
If glued scrap off the paper the best you can and sweep up floor really good before you start your morter tile.


----------



## rdharbis1 (Feb 16, 2012)

nealtw said:


> Remove the lino and check for squeaks as that old floor was just nailed down, I would screw thru to the joist and add shorter screws to tighten up the 1x6.


It was asked about the lino, yes, it is glued down.  Scraping is how I removed a portion of it.  This will probably be the hardest part of the job unless I remove the plywood.  If I remove the plywood, I'll just cut it up in sections with lino glued on!
I do not understand the part about the shorter screws.  I was intending  to use screws to get rid of squeaks.  I am assuming that you mean to use shorter screws through the plywood to secure the planking to the plywood after the longer screws are used to secure the planking to the joists.  
Did I understand someone to say go ahead and remove the plywood and tile on the planking (using the backerboard in place of the plywood).  I haven't thought of that but it would be a perfect solution, I think!


----------



## nealtw (Feb 16, 2012)

Yes you can replace the plywood with the backer board. Put it down with thinset morter and screws.


----------



## drunkenDIY (Feb 16, 2012)

hey RD - I just completed a similar project in a 1962 home. It's more work, but if you ever plan on selling the house, I seriously recommend pulling up the ply. Wear a mask, set a circular saw to the depth of the ply, and cut it into workable chunks, right through the lino. If the ply/lino is original, it was likely put down with nails, and will come up easily in chunks with a crowbar. 

Once the ply is up, lay 1/2" hardie backer directly on the 1x6 sub floor, and tile on top of that. The transition between rooms will be almost exact, if you have 3/4" wood floors (depending on how many times they've been refinished). 

Check this out for the before: http://www.drunken-diy.com/where-demo-ends-and-rebuilding-begins/ 
And the after: http:http://www.drunken-diy.com/how-not-to-lay-tile/

The extra few hours is totally worth not tripping every time you walk into the room.


----------



## nealtw (Feb 16, 2012)

drunken: Looks like you've been having fun, look good.


----------



## isola96 (Feb 16, 2012)

drunkenDIY said:
			
		

> hey RD - I just completed a similar project in a 1962 home. It's more work, but if you ever plan on selling the house, I seriously recommend pulling up the ply. Wear a mask, set a circular saw to the depth of the ply, and cut it into workable chunks, right through the lino. If the ply/lino is original, it was likely put down with nails, and will come up easily in chunks with a crowbar.
> 
> Once the ply is up, lay 1/2" hardie backer directly on the 1x6 sub floor, and tile on top of that. The transition between rooms will be almost exact, if you have 3/4" wood floors (depending on how many times they've been refinished).
> 
> ...



That's a cool blog! I just liked it on Facebook


----------



## Daddytron (Feb 16, 2012)

isola96 said:


> That would save so much trouble but morter will never work on the linoleum.



my bathroom was like that... they layed lath over the vinyl. it held up quite well, but I wouldn't recommend it, as it is a real pain in the butt scraping that off if you ever want to change it up


----------



## joecaption (Feb 17, 2012)

Big mistake, 1 X6's and linolium should never be under a tile floor. It's going to flex, and the thin set is not going to stick to the linolium.
Less work to remove what you have down to the floor joist and use Advantec subflooring with constrution adhesive and screwed down with ceramic coated deck screws, then a layer of 3/8 subfloor rated plywood, 1/4 tile board set in thin set.
Then to have to go back and remove all that tile when it comes loose, and the grout cracks.


----------



## joecaption (Feb 17, 2012)

http://www.johnbridge.com/
This is a web site with nothing but info about tiling.


----------



## nealtw (Feb 17, 2012)

What Joe says is the standard but you have to be carefull here as sometimes people are causing a much greater problem here.
The problem comes at each side of the room where the non bearing walls are sitting on the floor. These walls most times do not sit on a joist and is supported by the floor boards. When these board are cut close the wall and replaced unless steps are taken to support that wall it will sag and damage the floor on both sides of the wall.


----------



## 1jackguy (Feb 17, 2012)

What is missing here is nobody said anything about if your putting down tile, with the weight added you need to check the bracing under the floor. To wide of spand will bouce and stap the tile.


----------



## rdharbis1 (Feb 18, 2012)

Good morning, thanks all for your interest and suggestions.  A couple of questions have been asked:
  The state of the floor joists, the kitchen is above my basement and I have access to the joists.  These are very stable and in good shape.  
   The kitchen has two external walls and one load bearing wall.  The fourth side is iron railing for the stairs to the basement.

joe, checked on your book and if it was on iBooks I would have bought it this morning.  probably will go ahead and order anyway.  I would like more info on the Advantech product.  
What dimensions does it come in?  what dimensions would I use with the 3/8 plywood?  I checked some local hardware store websites, and they talk about having it but did not give price or availability, is this a new product?
I kind of like the idea of rebuilding from the floor on up, but only if the results are worth it.  If the floor is still an inch higher, nothing gained.  Shoring up and preparing existing subfloor is doable... Sorry should never pose a different answer to someone you have asked advice.


----------



## isola96 (Feb 18, 2012)

1jackguy said:
			
		

> What is missing here is nobody said anything about if your putting down tile, with the weight added you need to check the bracing under the floor. To wide of spand will bouce and stap the tile.



If op puts ply down instead of backer board he has already double his wait limit in this case. joists has 16s on center & has 3/4 down already down which should be opposite from joists now putting 1/2" on top staggered with seams being overlapped at least 2ft from 3/4" ply that's already down to take weekness out of the prior seams. 
I'm not a pro floor guy but this method that I've been tought has not failed me yet
I also lay the second layer opposite of the 1st which I have been getting some heat recently on this method being incorrect from the old timer pros.


----------



## isola96 (Feb 18, 2012)

rdharbis1 said:
			
		

> Good morning, thanks all for your interest and suggestions.  A couple of questions have been asked:
> The state of the floor joists, the kitchen is above my basement and I have access to the joists.  These are very stable and in good shape.
> The kitchen has two external walls and one load bearing wall.  The fourth side is iron railing for the stairs to the basement.
> 
> ...



Joe will tell you that Advantec is superior to any other ply I haven't used it yet but want to in the worst way I think they come 4 by 8 ft sheets not shore how thick it comes. 
If its anyone to really listen to its joe and Nealtw both are extremely knowlagable


----------



## nealtw (Feb 20, 2012)

If you don't have non bearing walls, just go back to Joe's first post and replace it with at least 3/4 adventech, thicker if you have room.


----------



## rdharbis1 (Apr 2, 2012)

Thanks for all the inputs from everyone.  I realized this job may be too big for me and hired the pros.  I also wanted to update the forum on what their methods were.
Remove 3/4 inch plywood (this was my contribution to the job!)
Evaluate and repair planking, squeaks and lose boards.
Lay backerboard 3/8 inch on top of planking
Lay the tile
Work is in progress as I type.  I will send finished pics.


----------



## isola96 (Apr 2, 2012)

rdharbis1 said:
			
		

> Thanks for all the inputs from everyone.  I realized this job may be too big for me and hired the pros.  I also wanted to update the forum on what their methods were.
> Remove 3/4 inch plywood (this was my contribution to the job!)
> Evaluate and repair planking, squeaks and lose boards.
> Lay backerboard 3/8 inch on top of planking
> ...



Why did they remove and not replace the 3/4" ply ?!?.. Or drop down to 1/2"?... I don't recall you telling us how thick the planks were any less then 3/4" won't prevent movement.

I take it you did 3/8 instead of 1/4" because you think this will prevent movement?

I don't see that they are using thinset mortar for the backerboard to be placed in?..... This makes me think that they won't tape the seams either 
Which will make putting backer board down pointless if avoided both methods of cbu install.


----------

