# Terminating wires



## swimmer_spe (Jul 19, 2022)

This house had a hot tub outside.There is a dedicated breaker for it. Below the deck is the wires and a disconnect box. I think that some outdoor plugs are also off this run.

Without an electician doing it, what is a safe way to terminate the wires such that it is safe to turn on the power to the run and that the water/snow/ice does not corrode it?


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## Snoonyb (Jul 19, 2022)

Well, tell us more.
Are the conductors encased?
  A. In what material?
Are you sure that there are in fact additional plug circuits and how many?
 A. How are those conductors encased?


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 19, 2022)

Snoonyb said:


> Well, tell us more.
> Are the conductors encased?
> A. In what material?
> Are you sure that there are in fact additional plug circuits and how many?
> A. How are those conductors encased?


It looks like BX wire that is encased in a rubber coating.

I am not sure, but they are the only things not working in our house and that is the only breaker that is off.


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## Snoonyb (Jul 19, 2022)

Well, it's not snowing, so turn the breaker on, and test.


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 19, 2022)

Snoonyb said:


> Well, it's not snowing, so turn the breaker on, and test.



Regardless of whether this is that circuit, I want to make those wires safe so that I can leave it on.


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## Snoonyb (Jul 19, 2022)

Well, since you don't want to test for viability, how long have the circuits been there and when was the last time they were active?

As I'm not familiar with plastic coated BX, could you provide a photo, including any present terminations, and associated "J" boxes?


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 19, 2022)

Snoonyb said:


> Well, since you don't want to test for viability, how long have the circuits been there and when was the last time they were active?
> 
> As I'm not familiar with plastic coated BX, could you provide a photo, including any present terminations, and associated "J" boxes?





			https://www.google.ca/search?q=outdoor+wire+220v&sxsrf=ALiCzsaCrZ6YSBz0DWrWCFSWRDnxn00ATA%3A1658284551095&ei=B2rXYsrABcmaptQPj9iMqAw&ved=0ahUKEwiK4Oqst4b5AhVJjYkEHQ8sA8UQ4dUDCA0&uact=5&oq=outdoor+wire+220v&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBggAEB4QCDIGCAAQHhAIMgUIABCGAzIFCAAQhgMyBQgAEIYDOgcIABBHELADSgQIQRgASgQIRhgAUMgIWMgIYMgNaAFwAXgAgAGRAYgBkQGSAQMwLjGYAQCgAQHIAQjAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz
		


Something like that.

I do not know how long it has been there and I do not know how long since it was shut off. I think it was shut off simply due to them getting rid of the hot tub.


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## Snoonyb (Jul 20, 2022)

SO, a store post, is an actual substitute for an on-site photo, really!

So, how about some actually on-site photos and "J" boxes?


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## afjes_2016 (Jul 20, 2022)

swimmer_spe
I agree with snoonyb. If you want good and accurate advice it is best you provide some actual pictures instead of a store/item link. We would rather not guess and give you incorrect advice.


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## Hamberg (Jul 20, 2022)

Not that it matters much but based on the link from the OP, they may be "up north"!? Like @Snoonyb said, we really need some pics to see what you are working on.

If, in fact, there are multiple circuits in the "box" there would have to be 2+ breakers. A hot tub would be a minimum 40A (more likely, 50A) breaker and, if up to current code, the other feed would be 20A.

If there is only one breaker in the sub/disconnect then the other, outdoor, outlets are not run from that box.


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## bud16415 (Jul 20, 2022)

From what we know so far a hot tub disconnect outside will be a GFCI disconnect and may have one or two breakers depending on the manufacture of the tub. Mine has two one for the heater 20a and one for the rest of the pumps and stuff 30a. So it is possible when they removed the tub someone went off the 20a side for some outdoor outlets.



The GFCI disconnect should not be under a deck unless it is easily accessible from where the hot tub was but not so close it could be reached from inside the tub. Code says 5’+ and in a line of sight with the tub.



If the tub was properly removed the wires should have been removed inside the disconnect and the wire taken out with the tub. The wrong way would be to leave the wires and have them wire nutted or taped up where the tub was. If the wires are not there then the only thing that should have been done is the knock out hole where they exited the disconnect should have had a cap installed.



 With the main breaker feeding the disconnect turned off you can open the box and remove the safety panel and then take a picture of the guts and we can tell you what you have.


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 20, 2022)

Hamberg said:


> Not that it matters much but based on the link from the OP, they may be "up north"!? Like @Snoonyb said, we really need some pics to see what you are working on.
> 
> If, in fact, there are multiple circuits in the "box" there would have to be 2+ breakers. A hot tub would be a minimum 40A (more likely, 50A) breaker and, if up to current code, the other feed would be 20A.
> 
> If there is only one breaker in the sub/disconnect then the other, outdoor, outlets are not run from that box.



... I'll crawl under the deck.



bud16415 said:


> From what we know so far a hot tub disconnect outside will be a GFCI disconnect and may have one or two breakers depending on the manufacture of the tub. Mine has two one for the heater 20a and one for the rest of the pumps and stuff 30a. So it is possible when they removed the tub someone went off the 20a side for some outdoor outlets.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Will do.


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## kok328 (Jul 20, 2022)

Snoonyb said:


> Well, since you don't want to test for viability, how long have the circuits been there and when was the last time they were active?
> 
> As I'm not familiar with plastic coated BX, could you provide a photo, including any present terminations, and associated "J" boxes?


OP is describing Seal Tight conduit.  Used for outdoor/moisture resistant, wet location applications.
Turn off the breaker and remove it from the panel, it doesn't have the right specs to be reused for anything.  Use the space for a couple of 20A circuits/outlets.


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## Eddie_T (Jul 20, 2022)

kok328 said:


> OP is describing Seal Tight conduit.  Used for outdoor/moisture resistant, wet location applications.
> Turn off the breaker and remove it from the panel, it doesn't have the right specs to be reused for anything.  Use the space for a couple of 20A circuits/outlets.


What specs would be wrong for re-purposing?


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## bud16415 (Jul 20, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> What specs would be wrong for re-purposing?


I’m assuming it is the 50a current rating and downstream having 20a outlets protected by it.


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## Eddie_T (Jul 20, 2022)

bud16415 said:


> I’m assuming it is the 50a current rating and downstream having 20a outlets protected by it.


The 50a current rating wouldn't be a problem if fed by a properly sized breaker. I guess the only problem might be whether it's configured as a branch circuit or sub panel.


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 20, 2022)

kok328 said:


> OP is describing Seal Tight conduit.  Used for outdoor/moisture resistant, wet location applications.
> Turn off the breaker and remove it from the panel, it doesn't have the right specs to be reused for anything.  Use the space for a couple of 20A circuits/outlets.



Our plan is to get a hot tub one day, so really, this is just a long term temporary thing till we get one.


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## Hamberg (Jul 20, 2022)

@swimmer_spe -   all conjecture until we see pics…


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## kok328 (Jul 20, 2022)

swimmer_spe said:


> Our plan is to get a hot tub one day, so really, this is just a long term temporary thing till we get one.


Sounds like your wired so you can't have 120V 20A outlets unless you power the 240V 50A circuit.  I'd remove the load leads for the 50A so nothing to worry about (wrie nuts, electrical tape, corrosion, etc).
Post a pic if you can.


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 20, 2022)

kok328 said:


> Sounds like your wired so you can't have 120V 20A outlets unless you power the 240V 50A circuit.  I'd remove the load leads for the 50A so nothing to worry about (wrie nuts, electrical tape, corrosion, etc).
> Post a pic if you can.



I'll post a picture when it drys out. We just had a good rainstorm blow through and it will be quite wet under there.


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## bud16415 (Jul 20, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> The 50a current rating wouldn't be a problem if fed by a properly sized breaker. I guess the only problem might be whether it's configured as a branch circuit or sub panel.


99% of 240v hot tubs have a regular breaker in the panel rated at 50-60a. that feeds a hot tub sub panel that contains a disconnect via a 50-60a GFCI that by code has to be near the tub. This is where the home owner kills the tub to do work on it like draining and refilling etc. It is also there for safety so the GFCI can be tested monthly and if the tub trips it or something goes wrong like a hose breaks you can quickly shut it off. It is not allowed to put the GFCI into the main panel and wire it all the way out to the tub. even though people do it.



If someone removed the tub and saw the GFCI sub panel as a place to pull off 120v for some outlets all the overload protection backing it up would be too high. This I believe is what the OP thinks was done.



 To the OP if you someday want a hot tub it would be great to have the GFCI sub panel already in place, but you don’t want it under the deck where it is hard to get at and not to code anyway. Depending on where the main panel is and what’s involved you could use this box as a junction box for a new tub and run out of it to a new one above the deck and at least 5’ from the tub.


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 20, 2022)

bud16415 said:


> 99% of 240v hot tubs have a regular breaker in the panel rated at 50-60a. that feeds a hot tub sub panel that contains a disconnect via a 50-60a GFCI that by code has to be near the tub. This is where the home owner kills the tub to do work on it like draining and refilling etc. It is also there for safety so the GFCI can be tested monthly and if the tub trips it or something goes wrong like a hose breaks you can quickly shut it off. It is not allowed to put the GFCI into the main panel and wire it all the way out to the tub. even though people do it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know it shouldn't be under the deck. I have no idea why it was under the deck. It looks more like they pulled a feed from a junction box before it.

Short answer is I want to make the circuit safe to put power to to figure out whether it feeds other things and then go from that.


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## bud16415 (Jul 20, 2022)

Then you won’t know what’s in it till you open it up. It could have been already striped out and they are just using it as a junction point. Wait till it dries out cut the power to it and see if your outside outlets still have power. Then open it up and have a look.


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 20, 2022)

bud16415 said:


> Then you won’t know what’s in it till you open it up. It could have been already striped out and they are just using it as a junction point. Wait till it dries out cut the power to it and see if your outside outlets still have power. Then open it up and have a look.



Power is already cut and has been since we moved in almost 2 years ago.


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## bud16415 (Jul 20, 2022)

swimmer_spe said:


> Power is already cut and has been since we moved in almost 2 years ago.


Do your outside outlets work?


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 20, 2022)

bud16415 said:


> Do your outside outlets work?


Some do, some don't. The problem is that the end of the wire from the hot tub disconnect is just lying on the ground, so, before I turn the power back on, I need to make that safe.


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## Snoonyb (Jul 20, 2022)

swimmer_spe said:


> Some do, some don't. The problem is that the end of the wire from the hot tub disconnect is just lying on the ground, so, before I turn the power back on, I need to make that safe.



And this, not being in the OP, was helpful?

It helps, when you tell the whole story.


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 20, 2022)

swimmer_spe said:


> This house had a hot tub outside.There is a dedicated breaker for it. Below the deck is the wires and a disconnect box. *I think that some outdoor plugs are also off this run.*
> 
> Without an electician doing it, what is a safe way to terminate the wires such that it is safe to turn on the power to the run and that the water/snow/ice does not corrode it?





Snoonyb said:


> And this, not being in the OP, was helpful?
> 
> It helps, when you tell the whole story.



It was.....


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## bud16415 (Jul 20, 2022)

Yes that is what I asked or explained in my first post. That should have never been left that way. once inside the box and behind the safety panel all those wires need to be removed from the screws and that whole cable taken off and then the hole capped.



With the breaker off I would still do a voltage test where the power comes in.



 I had a friend that sold his house and took his hot tub with him and left the wires hanging like yours. I couldn’t leave it like that so I went into the main panel and took the wires off the breaker and taped them up and left them inside the main panel. I wrote a note card explaining what I did and the breaker was for a tub if the new owner ever wanted one. And taped it inside the door to the panel.


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## Snoonyb (Jul 20, 2022)

swimmer_spe said:


> It was.....



Where does your OP say, "laying on the ground"?

"This house had a hot tub outside.There is a dedicated breaker for it. Below the deck is the wires and a disconnect box. I think that some outdoor plugs are also off this run.

Without an electician doing it, what is a safe way to terminate the wires such that it is safe to turn on the power to the run and that the water/snow/ice does not corrode it?"


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 20, 2022)

bud16415 said:


> Yes that is what I asked or explained in my first post. That should have never been left that way. once inside the box and behind the safety panel all those wires need to be removed from the screws and that whole cable taken off and then the hole capped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My goal would be to remove it, like you said, but still have power for the outside plugs that may be powered by it. Since I don't own a megger, I plan to make the wires safe and then use a plug tester. Good thing is, there is also an outside light that is on the same circuit as the those plugs. Under the deck is a mess of cables and wires and I am trying to sort it all out without having to rip the deck up to get at everything.


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 20, 2022)

Snoonyb said:


> Where does your OP say, "laying on the ground"?
> 
> "This house had a hot tub outside.There is a dedicated breaker for it. Below the deck is the wires and a disconnect box. I think that some outdoor plugs are also off this run.
> 
> Without an electician doing it, what is a safe way to terminate the wires such that it is safe to turn on the power to the run and that the water/snow/ice does not corrode it?"



Would it be any better if none of it was laying on the ground? Part of my plan once I get under there is to get the boxes off the ground and secured somehow to the underside of the deck. Before I go there just to do that I want to fix it so it is safe to energize it.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 21, 2022)

You seem completely unsuited to attempt any work on this mysterious mess of wires etc. 
You should not do any of this yourself, sorry, it is beyond your ability to safely work on it. 
The existing work also sounds like it was installed by some amateur fool like uncle Joe or cousin Moe, so who knows what some self-taught chucklehead did to wire up the hot tub and outdoor outlets years ago?
Hire a pro, or expect to be electrocuted.


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## afjes_2016 (Jul 21, 2022)

Jeff Handy said:


> You seem completely unsuited to attempt any work on this mysterious mess of wires etc.
> You should not do any of this yourself, sorry, it is beyond your ability to safely work on it...



Jeff, I'm sorry but I find your reply to be a bit rude and boarder line condescending.

We are here to assist OPs with their DIY electrical work and even attempts at it. If we feel that what they want to do or have to do may be over their heads we can be a bit more polite and considerate when we advise them to seek the assistance of a licensed electrician. We don't want DIYers to read replies like this and hesitate in asking their questions with fear of being "banged" for their lack of knowledge. Sure there are times when we need to stress to an OP that maybe what they are attempting could be over their heads but I think most of the time we are more easy and polite in telling them. At least I try to be.


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 21, 2022)

Jeff Handy said:


> You seem completely unsuited to attempt any work on this mysterious mess of wires etc.
> You should not do any of this yourself, sorry, it is beyond your ability to safely work on it.
> The existing work also sounds like it was installed by some amateur fool like uncle Joe or cousin Moe, so who knows what some self-taught chucklehead did to wire up the hot tub and outdoor outlets years ago?
> Hire a pro, or expect to be electrocuted.



There has been a lot of things I have had to make right around here. Some of it has been electrical. If it is as simple as get a juntion box and put the wire in, sealing it in properly and then put marettes on the ends, it is well within my abilities.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 21, 2022)

You are right that I was too blunt with my assessment. 
Sorry about that. 
I think by being direct, I was trying to make my point too quickly or firmly. 
And I was trying to scare the OP but in a good way, to discourage and also protect. 
But I stand by my warning that in this instance, the posts so far are laying out a situation that needs a pro or more experienced amateur to assess it. 
Sorry for being too grouchy, I have good and bad days.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 21, 2022)

The outdoor outlets that are not working might be tied to another gfci outlet inside the house or garage. 
Or on the deck, front porch, garage, etc. 
Check the TEST/RESET buttons everywhere. 
An outlet that does not have those buttons can still be fed and controlled by another one upstream that does have them.


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 21, 2022)

Jeff Handy said:


> The outdoor outlets that are not working might be tied to another gfci outlet inside the house or garage.
> Or on the deck, front porch, garage, etc.
> Check the TEST/RESET buttons everywhere.
> An outlet that does not have those buttons can still be fed and controlled by another one upstream that does have them.



Already done that. If they don't work once I energize this circuit, my next step is to rip up the deck boards to find the route as the wires are not buried, just under the deck.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 21, 2022)

Just a long shot, but if the dead outlets are all gfci, they might have just died from the gfci chip blowing out.
Modern gfci outlets do that.
The older type just stayed live, with gfci protection gone, which of course was dangerous.
The modern ones also have a much stiffer RESET button, needs very firm press to reset.
There might still be live conductors attached to them, which you could test with a non contact voltage tester.

There could also be a wall toggle switch that you never use, in the garage, mud room, etc, that controls all these dead outlets. 

Very common issue, people find a forgotten wall switch behind a shelf, or amongst a forest of other switches,


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 21, 2022)

Jeff Handy said:


> Just a long shot, but if the dead outlets are all gfci, they might have just died from the gfci chip blowing out.
> Modern gfci outlets do that.
> The older type just stayed live, with gfci protection gone, which of course was dangerous.
> The modern ones also have a much stiffer RESET button, needs very firm press to reset.
> There might still be live conductors attached to them, which you could test with a non contact voltage tester.



Already tested with a non contact voltage tester. It read no power.

Short of getting a megger, I have done all I can with the circuit dead. I feel that once the wires are made safe, if I throw the breaker, those should have power. If it does, I now have something to go on and now know what my next steps are.


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## Eddie_T (Jul 21, 2022)

Not telling you to do it but I would prolly just turn the breaker on and see what happens. If anything's wrong it'll just trip.


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## bud16415 (Jul 21, 2022)

I grew up and apprenticed starting at the age of 17 with a company that at that time was the largest manufacture in the world. Being the young apprentice and being taught by guys that learned their given trades well before WWII and lived thru the depression as children, they told it like it is, and didn’t hold back.



I was no worse for the wear being taught that way. My dad also had an impact on me that kids today don’t get. At about 8 or 9 he told me I would be mowing the yard and the instructions went like this. Stick your hand in there when it gets clogged and you will pull it out with stumps where you had fingers. Pull the mower back over your toes and kiss your feet goodbye. Here is where the gas goes, check the oil here, wind the rope around this, here is the choke, now get going.



There is a time and a place in today’s world for being blunt and it is a much different world. I want to first agree with @Jeff Handy s post and then compliment him for understanding when we cross the line it is ok to simply admit it and move ahead. I would also like to compliment @afjes_2016 for pointing out something he felt could better be handled with some civility in a non confronting manner. Lastly @swimmer_spe complements on replying to this with telling us your intentions without going negative.



 This is the way we all need to handle things here on the forum. We don’t want anyone to ever get injured on advice we give or work beyond their abilities. We need to help when we can and watch out for others who’s advice we may question. It is the OPs job to explain everything they can about their problem and to read and comprehend all the advice they get back.


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 21, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> Not telling you to do it but I would prolly just turn the breaker on and see what happens. If anything's wrong it'll just trip.



If it were only 110, I might. 220, Ah Hell Naw!



bud16415 said:


> This is the way we all need to handle things here on the forum. We don’t want anyone to ever get injured on advice we give or work beyond their abilities. We need to help when we can and watch out for others who’s advice we may question. It is the OPs job to explain everything they can about their problem and to read and comprehend all the advice they get back.



I have found that kindness kills, and ignoring comments is even better.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 21, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> Not telling you to do it but I would prolly just turn the breaker on and see what happens. If anything's wrong it'll just trip.


If a 50 or 60 amp breaker is protecting those 15 or 20 amp exterior outlets, and there is no smaller breaker in between, then the wires could melt or burn if there is a short, or other funky situation out under the deck.


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## bud16415 (Jul 21, 2022)

swimmer_spe said:


> If it were only 110, I might. 220, Ah Hell Naw!


First off that’s kind of a misconception laying on wet ground under a deck messing with 120v lines or a 240v service will both have what it takes to kill you dead as a door nail.



Non contact testers have a place but I would never trust one totally.



 There is a device called a megger and it is not what you need or want in this case. What you need is a simple multimeter that has the ability to measure at least voltage. You can pick one up at Ace Hardware for 25 bucks. They come digital or analog and I have one of each but being old school I kind of like watching a needle move rather than numbers jump around. Ether will tell you what you need to know and better to buy one now as once you get one you will wonder why you didn’t do it a long time ago.


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## bud16415 (Jul 21, 2022)

Jeff Handy said:


> If a 50 or 60 amp breaker is protecting those 15 or 20 amp exterior outlets, and there is no smaller breaker in between, then the wires could melt or burn if there is a short, or other funky situation out under the deck.


I tried to point that out a couple times.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 21, 2022)

bud16415 said:


> First off that’s kind of a misconception laying on wet ground under a deck messing with 120v lines or a 240v service will both have what it takes to kill you dead as a door nail.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Even cheaper and more simple, just a typical contact type voltage tester with a small display window, which lights up to indicate whether voltage is 240 or 120. 
Some also show lower voltages, but I like to use different testers for that.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 21, 2022)

Pretty much off topic, but this illustrates that I have seen some goofy stuff with hot tub wiring, and homeowners who are sometimes too casual about safety. 

I am not an electrician, but am experienced enough to handle fairly advanced wiring. 
And I know my limits. 

I had a long time client who had a new hot tub installed, and they also had it wired up to the breaker panel in the basement. 

It would run the jets, or the heater, but not both at once. 

The installers had put a 50 amp gfci breaker in the main panel, and the tub needed 60 to operate properly. 
They ran LiquidTite conduit all the way, with no outside disconnect. 

I rewired everything, in hard conduit, and installed a 60 amp gfci disconnect outside, which was hard to find in pre-internet days. 

Then they wanted another dedicated outdoor circuit installed nearby, for twinkle lighting, which I installed ten feet away, and instructed them that the lights have to be low voltage, with a transformer at the outlet. 

I came by one weekend, and some idiot guest had a boom box plugged into the new outlet, sitting on the very edge of the tub. 
I explained that you can’t trust gfci with your life like that, but he was arguing that it was fine. 

I unplugged the boom box, cut the cord, and left. 

My clients were cool with it.


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## Eddie_T (Jul 21, 2022)

Sorry I misunderstood, I thought the breaker for outdoor wiring had to be GFCI.

BTW 240V is 120V to ground rather than 240V. Will still kill you though.


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## bud16415 (Jul 21, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> Sorry I misunderstood, I thought the breaker for outdoor wiring had to be GFCI.


It does have to be GFCI, but GFCI does nothing with limiting current it looks for unbalanced current in the mil amp range, thus detecting a second path to ground.



If you take a 50a GFCI and crowbar a dead short it will not open until 50a is passing.



 The GFCI and the current rating are not connected.


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## Eddie_T (Jul 21, 2022)

GFCI doesn't detect current to ground it checks for balance in the lines assuming any imbalance is going to ground. 

I guess you are suggesting a short could occur between conductors w/o impacting the ground wire. I suppose that could be a possibility.


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## bud16415 (Jul 21, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> GFCI doesn't detect current to ground it checks for balance in the lines assuming any imbalance is going to ground.
> 
> I guess you are suggesting a short could occur between conductors w/o impacting the ground wire. I suppose that could be a possibility.


That’s correct about GFCI.



 I have many things in my home that only have a two prong plug like lamps etc. My electric drill is double insulated and only has two prongs. If that gets an internal short plugged into a 15/20a outlet and the outlet is protected with a 50a breaker the wires in the walls or the wires to the drill become the fuse and have to burn thru as they can’t carry 50a.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 21, 2022)

bud16415 said:


> That’s correct about GFCI.
> 
> 
> 
> I have many things in my home that only have a two prong plug like lamps etc. My electric drill is double insulated and only has two prongs. If that gets an internal short plugged into a 15/20a outlet and the outlet is protected with a 50a breaker the wires in the walls or the wires to the drill become the fuse and have to burn thru as they can’t carry 50a.


This is mostly correct. 
However, the fuse or breaker is not meant to protect your drill. 
The fuse or breaker is meant to protect the house wiring from melting, over heating, or burning, etc, which would endanger the house or occupants etc. 
But your point about protecting the wires in the drill is relevant, because nowadays more and more small appliances have a fuse built right into their plug, just to protect the appliance or its wiring, usually much smaller that 15 or 20 amps.


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## Eddie_T (Jul 21, 2022)

I would still flip the breaker, just not plug Bud's drill into one of the receptacles or crawl under the deck.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 21, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> Sorry I misunderstood, I thought the breaker for outdoor wiring had to be GFCI.
> 
> BTW 240V is 120V to ground rather than 240V. Will still kill you though.


The breaker in the main panel could be a regular breaker, feeding a sub panel or disconnect outside for the hot tub, which then has the tub gfci breaker inside it.  
And maybe the outside box also has a 15 or 20 amp gfci breaker inside it, feeding the dead outlets. 

Or the existing junction box might have led to a disconnect box which has now gone bye bye. 

Time to open up the deck to expose the mystery wires or junction box etc. 
You can always kill the main breaker in the main panel, to safely poke around in the wires down there. 

When killing and restoring main power, I first like to power off and/or unplug sensitive electronics, like computers, tv, microwave, sound system, even the fridge and washer dryer. 
Or turn off their breakers if dedicated. 
Sometimes a circuit board can get fried by the big voltage surge when switching main power.


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 21, 2022)

Jeff Handy said:


> If a 50 or 60 amp breaker is protecting those 15 or 20 amp exterior outlets, and there is no smaller breaker in between, then the wires could melt or burn if there is a short, or other funky situation out under the deck.



That is why, with what everyone has been saying, I will open it up and see what is what. I don'teven remember if there is more than the wires in and the wires out of it. Which means even more figuring out what is what.



bud16415 said:


> First off that’s kind of a misconception laying on wet ground under a deck messing with 120v lines or a 240v service will both have what it takes to kill you dead as a door nail.



True, but 15A is a little less scary to me than a 50A. And, yes, I do know that less than 1 amp will kill me.



bud16415 said:


> Non contact testers have a place but I would never trust one totally.



They are a good first check thing. Does not tell you much, but I would trust it over nothing.



bud16415 said:


> There is a device called a megger and it is not what you need or want in this case. What you need is a simple multimeter that has the ability to measure at least voltage. You can pick one up at Ace Hardware for 25 bucks. They come digital or analog and I have one of each but being old school I kind of like watching a needle move rather than numbers jump around. Ether will tell you what you need to know and better to buy one now as once you get one you will wonder why you didn’t do it a long time ago.



As I understand it, a megger is used in situations to apply a low voltage to the lines to then be able to find the problems.


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## Eddie_T (Jul 21, 2022)

A megger is not an easy meter to use. Since a common VOM cannot measure high resistances a megger is used to look for insulation breakdown. The circuit must be completely isolated and the megger generates a high enough voltage to force a current in high resistance insulation. This is a IIRC comment as I haven't seen a megger used since my first job out of college.

So far you/we/us don't even know if you have a problem. You just have to determine what's on that 50A breaker.


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 21, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> A megger is not an easy meter to use. Since a common VOM cannot measure high resistances a megger is used to look for insulation breakdown. The circuit must be completely isolated and the megger generates a high enough voltage to force a current in high resistance insulation. This is a IIRC comment as I haven't seen a megger used since my first job out of college.
> 
> So far you/we/us don't even know if you have a problem. You just have to determine what's on that 50A breaker.



Point is, I have done what i can with a dead circuit.  The point of this post was to figure out a safe way to make those bare wires from electrocuting me.


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## afjes_2016 (Jul 22, 2022)

.

Swimmer_spe
I will chime in with the misconception that working with 240v is more dangerous than working with 120v.
One thing you must remember, it takes less than an amp to kill you and 120v and 240v have amps sufficient to kill you.

Here is a quote from an article:


> A current of 10 mA or 0.01 A is a severe shock, but it would not be fatal. As we approach 100 mA or 0.1 A, muscle contractions set in. It is imperative to realize that due to the low resistance of the heart, a current of only 10 mA is sufficient to kill us.




.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 22, 2022)

afjes_2016 said:


> .
> 
> Swimmer_spe
> I will chime in with the misconception that working with 240v is more dangerous than working with 120v.
> ...


I have read that about as much current as it takes to light up a flash light is enough to kill you, if it goes through your heart. 
That is one reason why old timers will tell you to only touch a fuse box or breaker panel with one hand, and keep your other hand in your pocket, so a possible shock won’t go across your body. 
And also to stand on a scrap piece of dry carpet, and never barefoot.


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## Hamberg (Jul 22, 2022)

Have we established the sub panel/junction/disconnect is under the deck? By most standards, doesn't this constitute inaccessible? (ART 110 NEC).

Probably shouldn't be looking to fix this thing but rather bring it up to current standards!?


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## bud16415 (Jul 22, 2022)

Hamberg said:


> Have we established the sub panel/junction/disconnect is under the deck? By most standards, doesn't this constitute inaccessible? (ART 110 NEC).
> 
> Probably shouldn't be looking to fix this thing but rather bring it up to current standards!?


I have mentioned this at least 3 times now.


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## Hamberg (Jul 22, 2022)

bud16415 said:


> I have mentioned this at least 3 times now.



 at some point, some one, will listen


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## Eddie_T (Jul 22, 2022)

afjes_2016 said:


> .
> 
> Swimmer_spe
> I will chime in with the misconception that working with 240v is more dangerous than working with 120v.
> ...


Good points! And it makes no difference what the breaker size is. When it come to electrocution a 50A breaker is no more risky than  a smaller one. The only way to get a 240V shock is to be caught between L1 and L2 otherwise it's 120V to neutral or ground. Keeping one hand in a pocket is a good idea because in these days of ugly Chinese rubber soled shoes it's harder to get a single handed shock.


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## bud16415 (Jul 22, 2022)

We as a forum should not be giving any information out on doing home electrical work with the power live. The only situation where something is done on an energized circuit should be in taking some kind of measurement of the voltage or current in the system. In those cases ether a non contact device or a probing device with proper insulated test leads and proper instructions is what should be done.



There is no safe level of exposing the human body directly to home voltages.



Things like shoes and gloves, the material a ladder is made from and how many hands you keep in pockets can be wise to do in the event of something out of your control happening, but it should not be planned on being needed.



Power should be off unless you are testing it and it should be tested to be sure it is off. In industrial settings they follow LOTO lock out tag out to insure another level of protection. It is really not a bad idea at home if you are working with others.



 As a forum I don’t want to read anything coming close to hot work.


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## Eddie_T (Jul 22, 2022)

Good point but I don't think anyone was advocating hot work.


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## Snoonyb (Jul 22, 2022)

Hot work, which I'm not an advocate of, is on occasion a necessity.

I was doing some work on a garage and needed to secure the 20A feed, and found the ZINSCO breaker, was a flow-thru device, so after removing the conductor from the breaker and finishing the repairs, and using a channel-locks and then a vice grip, I was unable to dislodge the breaker, so I inserted a flat blade Stanley, dislodging the breaker AND shortening the Stanley.

Which I sharpened and used as an awl, center punch, nail set & alignment tool.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 22, 2022)

Snoonyb said:


> Hot work, which I'm not an advocate of, is on occasion a necessity.
> 
> I was doing some work on a garage and needed to secure the 20A feed, and found the ZINSCO breaker, was a flow-thru device, so after removing the conductor from the breaker and finishing the repairs, and using a channel-locks and then a vice grip, I was unable to dislodge the breaker, so I inserted a flat blade Stanley, dislodging the breaker AND shortening the Stanley.
> 
> Which I sharpened and used as an awl, center punch, nail set & alignment tool.


Turn off main power, screwdriver and you would both have survived.


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## bud16415 (Jul 22, 2022)

I’m sure many of us myself included have done some hot work in the past and most likely it wasn’t one of the smarter things in our past.



My point is a home improvement forum with all the unknowns of dealing with people we don’t know anything of their abilities it is a must we provide information that contains no hint of suggestion of doing it.



It is bad enough people get confused and wire dead shorts into things and find out tripping the breaker as soon as they restore power.



 There is danger in just about everything with home repairs but we need to be very careful in giving advice to try and explain the safest way to do something.


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## Snoonyb (Jul 22, 2022)

Jeff Handy said:


> Turn off main power, screwdriver and you would both have survived.


Elderly tenant survival equip, elec dependent.


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 22, 2022)

afjes_2016 said:


> .
> 
> Swimmer_spe
> I will chime in with the misconception that working with 240v is more dangerous than working with 120v.
> ...



I stated that a few pages back. 
It is more mental that 110V 15A circuits seem safer to handle than 220V 50A circuits. I had to move my plug for my dryer and I did the same thing as I would do with any electrical circuit, but the fact that it was 220V made ,e nervous.



Hamberg said:


> Have we established the sub panel/junction/disconnect is under the deck? By most standards, doesn't this constitute inaccessible? (ART 110 NEC).
> 
> Probably shouldn't be looking to fix this thing but rather bring it up to current standards!?



Well, the goal is first to see if anything else is on this line. Once I have determined that, I will then bring it to code, which would include moving that panel to a more accessible spot. I have plenty of cable to do that. My concern is those wires out of the panel.



bud16415 said:


> We as a forum should not be giving any information out on doing home electrical work with the power live. The only situation where something is done on an energized circuit should be in taking some kind of measurement of the voltage or current in the system. In those cases ether a non contact device or a probing device with proper insulated test leads and proper instructions is what should be done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am fully aware of LOTO, and short of throwing an actual lock on the breaker, I try to follow my training in it. I have enough meters to test that the line is dead. From the non contact ones to multimeters to the plug in ones to test whether the outlet is wired right, I can and know how to safely test it. I also know that if I throw the breaker and it pops, to make sure it is off, and leave it off and call a professional.



Eddie_T said:


> Good point but I don't think anyone was advocating hot work.



The only hot work for me would be after making the bare wires safe, to turn the breaker on to see whether that breaker powers the outlets that are out. After that, the goal is to get it to code and then use the circuit.


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## afjes_2016 (Jul 23, 2022)

.



swimmer_spe said:


> I had to move my plug for my dryer and I did the same thing as I would do with any electrical circuit, but the fact that it was 220V made ,e nervous.


One very important thing they taught us early in electrical class besides other important factors is "Do not fear electricity - but you must RESPECT electricity" Fearing something sometimes tends to make you a bit sloppy. Respect it and understand it. The second most important thing is "Know your limitations".

.


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 23, 2022)

afjes_2016 said:


> .
> 
> 
> One very important thing they taught us early in electrical class besides other important factors is "Do not fear electricity - but you must RESPECT electricity" Fearing something sometimes tends to make you a bit sloppy. Respect it and understand it. The second most important thing is "Know your limitations".
> ...



One place I worked, we had a breaker for 4160V. I never had to throw it, but it could have been somethign I would need to do. Not good when the arc flash rating is 99 feet. I respect electricity.


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## bud16415 (Jul 23, 2022)

swimmer_spe said:


> One place I worked, we had a breaker for 4160V. I never had to throw it, but it could have been somethign I would need to do. Not good when the arc flash rating is 99 feet. I respect electricity.


During my apprenticeship I had an electrical rotation assignment and I was taken out at 19 years old and with a few semesters of DC/AC circuits under my belt is all to a 400 ton mechanical punch press and the electrician I was working with opened the 550v disconnect pulled the fuses out and removed the feed. So I’m left with a 2 story tall machine that is dead and told to strip everything electrical off the machine except the main motor and junk it.



That was easy enough opening panels and seeing all kinds of old dirty relays and timers and who knows what with switches and pushbuttons labeled this and that and a mile of conduit full of numbered wires. Cleaned it down to the bones and dumped everything into scrap bins.



Took most of a week working alone and when done he comes back and says looks great and hands me a tablet and a pen and said now we are going to wire it and bring it all up to date. I said what’s the paper for and he said to design the circuits you want to make it work. I though what the hell I should have paid attention taking it apart. He said bring your layout to Charley when you are done. Charley was the head guy in the building for this crew. So I take another week drawing a circuit and take it to Charley and he looks at it for about a minute and says pretty good you need to move this to this and he marks red on my ten pages of lines. I thought how could this guy look at that so fast and know anything. He takes me to this other area and said everything you need is in here wire it back up and Norm the first guy will put the power back for you.



So I spend the next month rebuilding this thing from scratch and Norm would check in once in a while and show me some trick to bending conduit etc. I get it done and he comes down with Charley and they look it over and Charley tells him hook it up.



Long story to get to this point when Norm gets done putting 550 to it and new fuses in he walks around the press frame puts a finger in his ear and closes his eyes and faces away and pulls the handle to on. I thought what a clown only later to find out he did that on every switch he threw as he once had one blow him over.



To conclude I don’t know who was more amazed me or Norm that the machine worked even though I never let on I had any doubts. Charley never asked or said a word if it worked or not that I knew of.



I went on for four more years of apprenticeship with about 10 other different assignments and when I graduated the very first guy to offer me a job was Charley. I took my second offer as I was more interested in tool and die making at that point. But to this day I turn my face away from machine disconnects and plug my ear.



 The really strange thing was before I retired there were ever changing rules around OSHA. I designed a machine and had my electrical crew wire it and when it came time to power it up first time my electrician leaves and comes back with his arc fault suit onface shield chest protection and heavy rubber gloves. I asked him what was up with that and he said new rules. I was amazed and asked if the operator needs all the gear to power his machine on? He said nope just us electricians.


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## Eddie_T (Jul 23, 2022)

We had one girl in a DC machines class. In the machine lab all the switches were open knife switches. She opened one slowly and drew a long arc. We never saw her again, I suspect she changed her major.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 23, 2022)

Bud, Very interesting story!


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 23, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> We had one girl in a DC machines class. In the machine lab all the switches were open knife switches. She opened one slowly and drew a long arc. We never saw her again, I suspect she changed her major.


I think she switched her career arc.


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## Ron Van (Jul 23, 2022)

Jeff Handy said:


> I think she switched her career arc.


If she didn’t, she arc to!


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## Flyover (Jul 23, 2022)

Maybe she was just auditing the class to stay current.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 24, 2022)

Maybe she just lost her spark for DC, and decided on an alternate curriculum.


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## Flyover (Jul 24, 2022)

It could be she was shocked by the courseload and wanted to conduct her studies in an area where she felt there would be less resistance.

Was she talking the class as a requirement or as an electrive?


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 24, 2022)

Her schedule might have been overloaded, and she decided to pull the plug on that course, before she got burned out.


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## Eddie_T (Jul 24, 2022)

She was gone in a flash.


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 24, 2022)

Well, this devolved into no longer being helpful....


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 24, 2022)

We make our harmless fun wherever we can. 
Quit your griping and start ripping up that deck, so we can know what is actually down there, we need pictures and first hand observation, to be able to properly advise you.


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 24, 2022)

Jeff Handy said:


> We make our harmless fun wherever we can.
> Quit your griping and start ripping up that deck, so we can know what is actually down there, we need pictures and first hand observation, to be able to properly advise you.


Not griping...


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## Ron Van (Jul 25, 2022)

It’s probably just a phase!


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## swimmer_spe (Jul 25, 2022)

Ron Van said:


> It’s probably just a phase!


Watt?


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## Eddie_T (Jul 25, 2022)

Any resistance was quite negative.


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## Jeff Handy (Jul 25, 2022)

Maybe she found the subject re-volting, and decided to look for another outlet that got her more charged up.


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## Eddie_T (Jul 25, 2022)

Maybe her dad grounded her.


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## Flyover (Jul 25, 2022)

Did you see any TV cameras following her around while she took off her clothes? She might have been a cable stripper.

It's possible she found a meditation class more energizing. At least there she could say "_ohm_"s.


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## afjes_2016 (Jul 26, 2022)

I'm not even going to follow this thread anymore - way off topic.


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## Eddie_T (Jul 26, 2022)

afjes_2016 said:


> I'm not even going to follow this thread anymore - way off topic.


It wasn't getting anywhere anyway. There wasn't enough info forthcoming for discussion or advice.


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## tomtheelder2020 (Jul 26, 2022)

afjes_2016 said:


> I'm not even going to follow this thread anymore - way off topic.


I have enjoyed this more than any other thread since I joined this forum.


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## Eddie_T (Jul 26, 2022)

She was a pretty girl I could hardly resistor.


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## bud16415 (Jul 27, 2022)

Just know the forum has a rule if you speak in puns you will be drawn and quoted!


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## Snoonyb (Jul 27, 2022)

May have been exceedingly illuminated, and blinded by the light.


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## Eddie_T (Jul 27, 2022)

If anyone would like to meter, I have her current address.


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## Snoonyb (Jul 27, 2022)

Could be a shocking revelation.


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## Eddie_T (Jul 27, 2022)

My meter box isn't Kosher, it has a bottom feeder.


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