# HillyBilly special lean to  lea to temp wall



## kevindropboxx (Mar 16, 2014)

My house is a 1940's lean to.  It was expanded for more space with  additional lean to rooms. The house roof is like a v at one point where  the lean to's join. 

The kitchen was once a screened in porch and still has the 2x4 framing because it is weight bearing.

 Here is a link to a lean to addition that looks like my kitchen.

http://www.hometips.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/lean-to-shed-construction-diagram.gif


The  living room is a lean to in the opposite direction of the kitchen.   Where they meet is a V and all of the water from the roof exits there.   Now the header and the corner beam are rotten.  

I want to build  two temporary walls, get rid of the load bearing wall and replace the  corner where the wood is rotten.  I was thinking I would put in 16' LVL.

My  question is how do I build a temporary wall on slanted roofs?  Do I  affix studs to the rafters with just a bottom plate? Build a wedge of  some sort?

I cant get my brain around this construction.

















Could I build something like a temporary truss?
Should this be in the wall forum?


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## nealtw (Mar 16, 2014)

Welcome to the site. For yopur temp wall place a 2x? plate on the ceiling and the floor cut the top of the stud on the same angle as the roof and nail them in place. If you have the drywall down you could forget the top plate and run the stud right under the rafter and the add a joiner block to the top side of the stud and the side of the rafter, then you know they will stay in place.


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## slownsteady (Mar 16, 2014)

I'm having a real hard time picturing your place. I know of a lean-to as a three- sided structure, and your illustration helped a little. Could you post a picture or two??


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## kevindropboxx (Mar 22, 2014)

I have taken some photos.  It isn't easy for me to tell what is going on so I took a lot.  The original house had a porch i think with a flat roof.  Then an additional roof was built over it.


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## kevindropboxx (Mar 22, 2014)

The problem area.  At some point a roof was leaking and the corner stud and top plate are rotten.  They kept adding wood and nails.  There must have been 20 nails in the corner stud. The top plate (I guess its called) for the old porch is rotten too at the end, so the old flat roof is going to fall down I think.

Any advice would be great.  !


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## nealtw (Mar 23, 2014)

Kevin, I don't want to be mean but you haven't got much to work with here. And it looks like you have plenty wrong.
What is the end game here, just fix it up or go after structure to make it right?  If it's structure we first have to look at what it is siting on.


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## kevindropboxx (Mar 25, 2014)

Thanks Neal for the honesty.  I inherited this old lake house and I think it has been sitting here empty for 25 years. The lake is receding.. I can't imagine the property value is going to skyrocket. But, I would hate to put in a kitchen only to find out the foundation is rotten.   So foundation it is.  

It's a pier and beam.. the beam is two 2x4's.  The 2x4's are leaning a bit.

Framing. 
 If you are looking into the kitchen, on the left the corner stud is what I think is a major problem.  It isn't easy to take photos to show you.  I believe someone saw that it was rotting and started nailing things to it to keep it together.  There were pieces of wood nailed everywhere as a patch. THEN the person built a roof over all of that.. 

So I know I at least need to replace the stud. The top plate resting on it is rotten in the same corner.  I was thinking I would make two temp walls and get rid of the existing framing and replace it with a LVL beam. 

The crazy two roof system that is going on and the slanted lean to roof in the living room have me scratching my head.

What a mess! The more I think about it the more confused I get.


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## bud16415 (Mar 25, 2014)

My first house was an old farm house right up on Lake Erie it was a house built to be a house around 1880. They sold the farm off because of the attraction of the great lake to a lot of people to build their own cabins or cottages or just fishing shacks. They were for summer usage and built without any codes etc. much like your place. Over the years most of them were added to and some became year round homes even but they all suffer from the ground up. People keep pouring more and more cash into them. 

To get your place up to code would likely cost more than buying something prefab and setting it on the property. I also know sometimes these old camps hold sentimental value and that is something hard to put a price on. If I had it and wanted to use it as a retreat I would do more of the same and patch it up with what I could find used and still make it a fun safe place. Anything rotted of course has to go and get filled back in at least with new and most likely doubled up. Figure out what is the foundation like Neal suggested and then make sure points of load find their way back to the foundation. After you get it feeling solid close it up, paint it up and enjoy.


edit:
 Looking at your photos a little more those two roofs that slope together and run down a valley seem to be a major problem area or one waiting to happen. Do you have any pics from back showing the whole building and those roofs? Did they just tar the heck out of that area or is it rubber or something like that?


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## nealtw (Mar 25, 2014)

What it looks like to me is two small building moved close together and a kitchen built in between.
Are you living in it now and will this be a camp or a home?


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## slownsteady (Mar 25, 2014)

The roof (rafters & sheathing) look newer than the stuff underneath. Do you know if that was added recently? Is it keeping things dry now?


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## kevindropboxx (Mar 30, 2014)

I don't know if this place will ever be up to code.  Im living and working from here right now.  It's free rent and I can try to bring it back to life.  

The roof is newer than the stuff underneath. I think the stuff underneath once was a porch that became rotten. Someone built a new roof on top of the existing rot.  They used it as support!

I shoveled a foot of leaves off of the roof and took photos, and I also took some photos of the foundation. The beam might need to be replaced. Its green.


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## kevindropboxx (Mar 30, 2014)

Foundation:


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## kevindropboxx (Mar 30, 2014)

Roof photos:


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## guyod (Mar 30, 2014)

As far as resale goes I dont think you can make this house buyable at least above land value without framing out a new roof.  So if you planning on selling it ever be aware any money and effort you are putting into the interior you will probably not get back. So what Im say is refiance and go all out or do it as cheap as possible to make it livable.


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## nealtw (Mar 30, 2014)

I guess I wasn't being mean. Just do what you have to to make it livable, no extra money. Anything  that you need advice on ,we will be glad to help


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## kevindropboxx (Mar 31, 2014)

Thanks Neal. I don't know anything about selling houses. Unless the lakes start to rise I don't see myself putting any real money into the place. It is a nice place to write a book and get out of the big city. Relatives bought the kitchen cabinets. So far I have bought a tankless water heater, Romex, and breaker. 

I know the kitchen has the old roof under the new roof and that there is a beam that is rotten. I need to figure out how to make a few temp walls so I can replace the beam.  

The old roof is in the way! The new roof rests on the old rotten roof. 

Do I buy a few jacks and replace the rotting beam outside before taking on the kitchen? Guyod is that what you meant by foundation?  

Guyod You weren't being mean at all. My treehouse as a kid was built better than this place!  This place is a hillbilly special. 

I'll try to pull some lights onto the old roof and take some photos. The roof doesn't leak. The rotten wood is from when the hillbilly lived here. 

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Home Repair


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## nealtw (Mar 31, 2014)

(If)  I am looking at the right place, you are talking about the beam above the green light fixture in the 4th photo in post #4.
Two thing to look at first, are the ceiling joists on the other side of the beam, hanging on this beam. Likely not but you want to be sure. then will the floor be strong enough to hold the extra weight of the roof. Extra wood on the floor to spread the load onto more joists or extra support under the floor to transfer the weight to the ground.
Once you have sorted that out a temp wall can be built with a stud cut to the angle of the rafter and a block nailed to the side and the rafter so everything stays put. One stud for each rafter.


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## bud16415 (Mar 31, 2014)

On the bigger picture look at it this way you are living for very little cost there and you have very little invested. If you were paying rent what would it cost you for a place and maybe not as nice of a location? So if you were to invest every month what you would be paying in rent you will still be ahead of the game. 

We just bought a short sale home for cash and not much of it that was in really deplorable shape. The idea being fix it up as best we could and not for resale and have cost free living as far as a payment after that. You are doing much the same. 

You need to know your place is safe first off and then sound secondly. I see the rot issues not being caused by the roof over the roof but by a combination of the first roof maybe having started it before someone tried to fix it with the second roof and then and now the second roof needing some work and letting moisture in to get the decay started again. Getting all that stuff off the roof was a good start and after you get it shored up inside I would be back on that roof giving it a soft power wash and then a new coating of something. Looks like there are a few spots that could use the rolled roofing patched and others that would get by with a tar job. 

The new place we bought has a detached garage that the roof is worse than yours and the long range plan will be some metal barn like roofing but as soon as the snow goes away here I plan on doing some rolled roofing and tar for now. I would rather spend the extra cash on the main house. 

That valley on your place looks like the worst place and maybe some of the roofing guys will offer some advice on how to patch that up better than tar. I know people that have used the ice dam stuff in areas like that. 

Are those live oaks I see growing around?


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## guyod (Mar 31, 2014)

A dollar saved is a dollar earned. With taxes more like $1.30.  So Im all for what your doing.  

Your lucky there is no snow load.  If you can walk on roof without alot of bounce i doubt it is in danger of falling down.   
I would start by removing anything that is not load bearing from old roof.  Then take a picture and use paint program to mark where the beam is.  There is so much going on its hard to see what is going on without being there.


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## kevindropboxx (Mar 31, 2014)

Sorry I screwed up your names.  I was on the iPhone app and have the memory of a gnat.
Bud they are live oaks. 

I think like all of you have said, what I need to do is to do as little as it takes to make it safe. I can live here and fix it up as I go.  

The electric was replaced years ago, the water pipes are fine.  It looks like the roof and foundation are the issues, anything else is cosmetic.  

Guyod: The roof doesn&#8217;t bounce.  I didn&#8217;t walk on the slopped part.

Bud: I think you are right about the roof. It will need a coat of something or ???  I don&#8217;t know what an ice damn is.  Ill look it up.  

I think since there is no gutter, water from maybe the entire house pours from the roof at that section and splashes everything. It really rains here. (I don&#8217;t know if a gutter could take all of the water.)  I have watched the interior wall and even with the cracks in the siding it doesn&#8217;t get wet.  

Im positive the kitchen once was a screened porch. The old roof must have slanted in such a way that the water ran down the corner stud. It became rotten. So the best solution is to leave it, add a bunch of nails and extra wood, then build a new room. 



NealTw: 4th photo post #4 is outside with a water hose and rotten beam. The beam is 2 2x4&#8217;s and It is under the part of the kitchen that needs to be replaced. I&#8217;m not sure how to jack the house up. There is dirt almost touching the beam along the house.  

I guess I dig the dirt out from under the rotten beam so I can reach the floor joist. Then slowly jack each one up until I can pull out the beam and replace it.. with pressure treated wood?  Do I put a jack at every floor joist? 

I have taken some photos of the ceiling joists.. they are a work of art!


Ill read the previous posts again and make sure I didn&#8217;t miss any questions.
Thanks everyone.


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## kevindropboxx (Mar 31, 2014)

It has taken me all day to learn to use a photo program.  [to type in some words!] 

 I know it is hard to tell what is going on with all of the extra wood.  I want to make sure I don't take down something that will make the roof cave in. 

Im going to post the photos one at a time so I can comment. 

Up first.
This is the problem area. Where it says hillbilly it is extra wood nailed on.


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## kevindropboxx (Mar 31, 2014)

Here we have the 'ceiling joist'.  It holds up the old roof. It is rotten and is being held up by a piece of wood for the drop ceiling, which is resting on rotten beams.


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## kevindropboxx (Mar 31, 2014)

Here are the rafters stage Left (if you were on stage looking at the audience).  

I don't know what is going on here.  Is that one piece of vertical wood holding up the entire roof?


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## kevindropboxx (Mar 31, 2014)

Here is stage Right.   Notice the vertical piece of wood that rests on the old roof.


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## kevindropboxx (Mar 31, 2014)

In order to build a temp wall, as I understand it, I am supposed to support the rafters with 2x4's cut at an angle on one end and a bottom plate on the other.

The old roof stage Left still has old roof on both sides of the 'ceiling joist' (which is rotten on one end and being held up by wood from the drop ceiling) But it doesn't look like the old roof on the front side is serving purpose at all. 

Do I support the ceiling joist and remove the front part of the old roof, so I can build a temp wall by affixing 2x4's to the rafters? 

What do I do with the rotten ceiling joist? It isn't supporting anything except old roof boards  AND that one piece of wood stage Left. 

Are there two pieces of wood holding up the roof?

Here is the old roof stage Left.

Im confused again!


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## nealtw (Mar 31, 2014)

Photo in post 25, some 6 or 8 ft of old sheeting has been removed to give a veiw of above, did you do that? Can you continue to remove the rest. peice by peice leaving anything that lools like it might be critical to the suport?


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## beachguy005 (Mar 31, 2014)

I think what you need to be looking at first is the foundation.  Repairing a roof that has a rotting house under it is a waste of time and money.
You should find a good framing contractor and if you don't want to pay him to do the work, pay him to consult.


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## nealtw (Mar 31, 2014)

beachguy005 said:


> I think what you need to be looking at first is the foundation.  Repairing a roof that has a rotting house under it is a waste of time and money.
> You should find a good framing contractor and if you don't want to pay him to do the work, pay him to consult.



Normally I would agree with this but after looking at the photos of the house sitting on blocks and the fact the floor is held up with a rotton beam and the only way to to get to that beam is to dig your way in. The whole section is a house of cards. There is very little holding this roof together. Would you really suggest to put someone under this house in this condition.


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## beachguy005 (Apr 1, 2014)

I must of missed where I made the recommendation.   Irrespective of your interpretation of my comment, foundation work can be, and is, done safely.


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## bud16415 (Apr 1, 2014)

First off the live oaks IMO make the whole project worth doing. 

Trying to piece together your photos in my head and it appears the wall that has the piece in it marked &#8220;Remove&#8221; with the cup hooks screwed into the bottom is a load bearing wall that ends at the rotted post marked &#8220;Replace&#8221;. If I&#8217;m seeing it right the short rafters are all carried on that wall. (Best shown in post #4)

That wall I only count 4 studs and it has the opening into the kitchen without much of a header. When you look under the floor where the building sets on the block piers is there a beam or more piers following along under that wall for support?

I agree with Neal start with the strapping that the drywall was attached to and get all that cleared out. I would save it as you can use it over later maybe. Then I would take a sawzall and start removing that old roofing that has no function one piece at a time to get that weight out and open it up. 
Then that wall I was just talking about. I don&#8217;t think I would take that beam out that&#8217;s rotted on the end. As its holding up the middle of the building and I don&#8217;t know what you have to jack against to support that load. I would be tempted to go back that beam until it was solid and put a good strong post in there with support under it all the way to the ground then cut off the rotted end and sister some new stuff to it. Just not as hillbilly as the older repairs. Hopefully there is a good beam under that wall and you can add a few studs into that wall also.


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## bud16415 (Apr 1, 2014)

This is the stuff I called Ice guard. We use it up north on problem spots. 

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Grace-Ic...i_gpa=pla&ci_src=17588969#product_description

I&#8217;m not a roofer and the roof guys may have better advice on your valley.


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## kevindropboxx (Apr 1, 2014)

- House of cards: take the top cards off first&#8230; Then fix the table leg the house of cards is sitting on.  Never build a house on a rotten table. 


Do you want the good news first or the bad news?

I think I have good news. I don&#8217;t think any of the new roof is resting on the rotten wood.  When someone built the living room onto the kitchen they built the new kitchen roof with it and just left the rotten wood.

Here are some photos.


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## kevindropboxx (Apr 1, 2014)

And the bad.. I think.

This is what is holding up the load bearing wall and kitchen floor.

I don't know if you can tell, but there is one pier or post and a can supporting everything


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## kevindropboxx (Apr 1, 2014)

The floor was built in steps.  

The bedroom steps down into the kitchen which steps down onto the living room floor.  Here is the bottom of the load  bearing wall and the step up to the kitchen.

Do I try to access the underside of the house by removing some of the kitchen floor?  Is it ok that there is only one pier or supporting the floor and load bearing wall? There have to be about 10 supporting the other side of the kitchen/bedroom.

Where do I go from here?

Thanks again!


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## nealtw (Apr 1, 2014)

So, still you want to take the old roof out carefully until you prove you are not disturbing the newer roof.
The beam under the floor is what like 1, 2, 3 ply 2x? or what and total length measure iinside house ddn't go under there and best guess distance to post. Then if you can get an eye on it, can you see a sag in it?


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## slownsteady (Apr 1, 2014)

Everything in this post is about the construction of the kitchen, right? What condition is the rest of the house in? At some point you have to wonder if the building is worth all the effort and materials and costs. Of course, I don't know your situation and I am not one of the pros, so I can only ask questions from the outside. You certainly have the right guys answering questions for you.

Here's a download with way more info than you need at the moment. I've seen it posted here before and it has lots of details that can be helpful. At the least, it will help with a common language for all the parts and connections:
http://www.awc.org/pdf/wcd1-300.pdf


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## bud16415 (Apr 2, 2014)

When you say one pier holding it up that&#8217;s the one in the middle of the beam? You also have one on each end of the beam? Answer Neal&#8217;s question if you can and along with the beam size what&#8217;s the length and also the distance between support points (piers)?  

The new construction looks like it was put in with the addition and also to work with that bad beam they left. What is the stud spacing on the new wall? Is the new wall directly over the beam in the crawl space. 

As to how much to do and the value in doing it. The answer to that is only known to the person with the house. I know in my life my opinion of value changed many times based around my ability to pay for something better. It sounds to me like the OP values having a place that&#8217;s his and paid for. And the photos show me they are not afraid of some hard work to make it livable, so based around that and the fact the labor is free this place looks like a lot of labor and a careful use of materials I say keep going and every little step makes it better.


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## slownsteady (Apr 2, 2014)

I was just raising the question; I wouldn't try to answer it from where I sit. But it occurred to me that if the whole house looked like this, you could put a trailer on the property and start from scratch.

I see that there are neighbors nearby. I wonder what kind of info they can share about this building.


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## kevindropboxx (Apr 5, 2014)

Thanks Bud for the ice damn link, and slowandsteady for the pdf it should help. I probably should read it before this post.

Slowand Steady:
The rest of the house was built right. The house was free.  This is a weekend lake house area.  One house was rented because of the economy and there is a 70+ year old woman that might remember something about it being built, but I don&#8217;t know how much she knows about construction.  I found a paper from 1954 saying that the water was tested as safe, and something about a volunteer fire department in the kitchen wall. I know the initial house was built in 1940. Perhaps the add on was built in 1954.

The shed was built right.  It is the size of a two car garage with an A frame.  There is electricity but no plumbing.  I guess I could build an outhouse and go with the theme.  Hook up the tankless water heater in the shed.  


I know how you love my ultra drawings so, I have made another.
These are the problem areas of the house.  The other side of the house is fine.  It is the kitchen roof where all of the water pours off that has caused the problems and the kitchen&#8217;s foundation, which may have shifted because of the rotten beam (where the water splashed).  

The house was built like steps up/down.  There might be one 2x4 under the load bearing &#8216;wall&#8217; in the kitchen. 
I might have exactly the same problem the hillbilly did with the original roof.  All of the water from the entire house 


Nealtw:
The kitchen is 13&#8217; long 
There are 3 piers.  The one in the middle is about at 7 1/2 feet between the two. 
There are 2 2x4&#8217;s as a joist I guess. There is a problem.  See photo. 

The photo in post #33 shows the stage Right view



Bud:
It was built outside of the kitchen, after it steps  down. 
I can&#8217;t tell where the new wall has been built.  Im guessing on top of ONE of the leaning 2x4&#8217;s in the crawl space that support the kitchen floor joists. 
Post #33 shows the kitchen joists resting on the 2 slanting 2x4&#8217;s. 
Post #34 shows the step down from the kitchen onto the living room floor.  Which would make the load bearing wall resting on nothing structural, just the living room floor. 


Maybe the new photos help.

I think if I rip the old kitchen wood out, replace the rotten green beam, and replace the load bearing wall with something like how a garage is built, I should be set. Right?   As far as this kitchen mess.  Then do what I need to seal the roof and look into gutter&#8230;?

If I can get everything except the Big Boy work done I might be able to call a couple of friends to help. 

Thanks guys!


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## kevindropboxx (Apr 5, 2014)

Stage-left-Crawl-Space

There is a pier and beam about 7 1/2 feet in-between the piers on the outside of the house.


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## kevindropboxx (Apr 5, 2014)

Stage-left-Crawl-Space
Kitchen on the right
Living room on the Left
There is a pier in the middle - you can't see.


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## slownsteady (Apr 6, 2014)

Ok. Sounds good to me. After you have the foundation under control, we'll just have to figure out how to turn around your roof!


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## nealtw (Apr 6, 2014)

So I am still confused where or what but it looks like they scabed something to the side joist of the living room and hung the kitchen joists off of that. I think I like the idea of removing the sheeting from the kitchen floor so you can figure out what to do with structure with out crawling under the house.


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## mabloodhound (Apr 23, 2014)

Kevin,

I just read through your thread and I am one that likes to save an old house when possible.   Neal and the others have given some good advice.   BUT the best advice was to get a framer to come in and help, or at least as a consultant.   Maybe a friend of a friend but you will be all the wiser with having someone knowledgeable look at this first hand.   Make sure he is a professional framer and not just someone who does occasional framing.
You've done great learning how to post pictures and using text to label them, now get someone to teach you about the framing.   It shouldn't cost you that much for a consultant and then you and your buddys can go to work on fixing it.   It does look like a place worth saving.
Dave Mason


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