# Outhouse Main Cable Size



## uniopp (Nov 4, 2020)

I want to run a cable from my main house (120V) to my outhouse which is 170’ away.
In my outhouse, I need 10 separate 20A outlets, each on their own circuit with individual breakers (not daisy chained).
What size/gauge would the main cable need to be to handle that kind of load?
Thanks


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## Snoonyb (Nov 4, 2020)

Welcome.

So you want to install a 100A sub panel.

What is the size of your existing service, and the main breaker?

Photo's of the service entry panel, open, and of the nomenclature label, will help.


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## JoeD (Nov 4, 2020)

Receptacles don't use any power. What do you intend to use those receptacle for? That will determine the size of the feeder.


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## bud16415 (Nov 4, 2020)

First welcome to the forum.

170’ walk to the outhouse seems like a long walk on a cold morning and 10X (20 amp) seems like a lot of power for an outhouse. What will all the power be used for?


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## Sparky617 (Nov 4, 2020)

bud16415 said:


> First welcome to the forum.
> 
> 170’ walk to the outhouse seems like a long walk on a cold morning and 10X (20 amp) seems like a lot of power for an outhouse. What will all the power be used for?


I suspect this outhouse is an outbuilding.  Workshop maybe?


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## kok328 (Nov 4, 2020)

Sounds like a very specific request.
Do you plan on using all 10 circuits at the same time?
Do you have a large enough main panel to support a 200A sub-panel (probably not)?


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## bud16415 (Nov 4, 2020)

Oh I thought it might be a two story double seater.


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## slownsteady (Nov 4, 2020)

LOL. So appropriate this week.

Funny, but I also think of an outhouse as a........well, outhouse (or as my italian grandmother used to call it ; "back-housa")


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## Jeff Handy (Nov 5, 2020)

Sounds like a grow house being set up. 

Whatever you are planning, you need to give much more info. 

Or hire a local pro. 

And the cable (or conductors in conduit) will be 240 volts, with a neutral and ground. 

You can run 120 volts from that, or 240 if needed. 

Total amps or watts needed for your planned use, and local codes, will determine your cable type and wire gauge. 
Also if conduit is needed, what type, burial depth, many things. 
170 feet is a long feeder. 

And some devices like heaters or motors that run continuously need heavier gauge than something running occasionally.


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## Jeff Handy (Nov 5, 2020)

kok328 said:


> Sounds like a very specific request.
> Do you plan on using all 10 circuits at the same time?
> Do you have a large enough main panel to support a 200A sub-panel (probably not)?


You can pull 200 amps of 120 volt from a 100 amp sub panel being fed by 240 volts.


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## afjes_2016 (Nov 5, 2020)

Code dictates that you can only run one circuit to an unattached building. If you want 10 dedicated circuits you will need to run one main circuit to the out house to a sub panel and then from there branch off to your individual 20amp circuits.

But it would help  if you gave us some idea of what you want to run on these individual circuits so we can advise properly what size feeder you should run to the outhouse's sub panel and the size of the sub panel  in the out house.

It would also help if you provided us with the size rating of your house panel that you plan to run this main feeder from to the out house.

Usually load calculations are performed to see what size rating panel you need as the sub panel.

Just like Joed said outlets (receptacles) don't use power. Therefore it is hard for use to guide you properly without knowing your intended needs in the out house.


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## uniopp (Nov 6, 2020)

Firstly, Thanks for all the replies.
Secondly, I'm sorry for the confusion with my choice of words - "outhouse", I should have said "outbuilding", in fact I should have said sound stage because the building is actually being used to practice music/lighting.
Looks like we need to run one feeder line to a sub panel and then divide up into 10 x 20A individual circuits.
My house mains has 240v (for some air conditioners) and /120v for the rest. We currently have 150A but I assume we can upgrade that if needed.
Anyway, I'm wondering what size the feeder cable should be cover the load.
Of course I will be getting an electrician to hook everything up but would like to lay the feeder myself in the meantime prior to deciding which contractor to use.
Thank you.


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## Jeff Handy (Nov 6, 2020)

Post your zip code, and members may be able to advise what is required as far as method of burial, cable type or conduit, etc.


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## afjes_2016 (Nov 6, 2020)

uniopp: Stop!! - I only say this as a "heads-up" to you. 


> Of course I will be getting an electrician to hook everything up but would like to lay the feeder myself in the meantime prior to deciding which contractor to use.


Do NOT purchase any materials or do any of the work yourself - YET!!

Most if not all licensed electricians will not pick up where you left off due to liability issues.

They will not take the liability for the work you do or for the materials that you provide.

If you are going to do any of the work yourself or buy any of the materials you MUST FIRST be sure that you have a licensed electrician on board with this and who agrees to this. 

I would suggest that you call three electricians. Have them come over. Explain what you want done. Let them give you written estimates. Be sure you mention that you want to do some of the grunt work yourself to save money and be sure the electrician agrees to it prior to starting any of the work.

This is a big mistake that many people make.

Let the electrician decide the size of the feeder based on the demands of the equipment you will be running and the future needs of this building.

I highly suggest that you do this first!!


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## Annapolis Albert (Nov 6, 2020)

It might make more sense to put your sound stage on it's own power meter.


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## Jim_in_JAX_FLA (Nov 6, 2020)

especially for possibly, tax write-off of the elec bill ???


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## JoeD (Nov 6, 2020)

You still haven't answered the question about the size of the loads you will using.


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## bud16415 (Nov 6, 2020)

Annapolis Albert said:


> It might make more sense to put your sound stage on it's own power meter.



I agree with this it may be the most practical solution due to the load required and the distance.


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## afjes_2016 (Nov 7, 2020)

I'm onboard with the others that suggested maybe you should run a separate service to this building for its power needs.

Asking us for a feeder suggestion to run 10- 20amp circuits is not really going to give you a bright enough picture of your needs and unfortunatly we may misguide you in doing so. The reason is we don't know the "load demand" requirements of the equipment you plan on running in this structure.

Besides the fact of seriously considering a separate electrical service to this structure you should really get a few licensed electricians to not only give you estimates but you should give them a list of all the equipment you plan on running in this building. This way they can perform what is called a "load calculation" to determine what service you will need in this building to run your equipment properly and safely. From there they can write up an estimate for you.

I would seriously suggest to you that you do not purchase any materials or run any conduit etc until you have done what I and others have suggested. You may find that you have spent a lot of money for nothing in materials.

Feeding power to a building that will contain equipment/lighting like this will will require some real thought for power demands. If it were for a living area it would be a bit more cut and dry - sound stage with lighting etc will require far more thought on the electrician's end. Not to mention the codes that may be involved since this is not simply a living area.

_I hope you plan on getting a permit for this project and that you are going to be contacting the electrical inspector who will need to sign off on this project to ask him/her what their requirements will be which may be above and beyond (more than likely) of the NEC._


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## Ron Van (Nov 7, 2020)

I’m a little confused by all this. When they build a house, the electricians don’t know what the potential load will be but they wire it anyway. Isn’t there a rule of thumb, like 5amps per outlet or something like that? I don’t know how big his band is but my band practiced in a room that only had 2 X 15a circuits in it and never tripped a breaker.


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## bud16415 (Nov 7, 2020)

Ron Van said:


> I’m a little confused by all this. When they build a house, the electricians don’t know what the potential load will be but they wire it anyway. Isn’t there a rule of thumb, like 5amps per outlet or something like that? I don’t know how big his band is but my band practiced in a room that only had 2 X 15a circuits in it and never tripped a breaker.


Homes follow the code and the codes take into account average/normal loading. It is possible to overload/overwhelm any house circuit also and the panel will not allow that.



This project is a little different as he is asking for something quite a bit larger than any typical extension of a home system and at first an unknown need for so much power. Now we know a little more but powering a band can be a wide range of requirements. Your band needed less than 30amps and that is what I would also expect for a little local band. Then on the other hand I’m involved with the building of home theaters on another forum and there are quite a few people that have such massive home theaters they also have 8-10 20amp circuits. It seems crazy to me that it takes that kind of power to watch a movie at home but banks of giant speakers with huge amplifiers can really suck up power.

I have a 100amp sub panel run to my garage shop and barely ever draw over 30amp the wire running to it has to be sized for the possibility of full usage. Then you also have to factor in the type of wire and the distance, along with what is feeding the house also.


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## Jeff Handy (Nov 7, 2020)

170 feet distance plus extra misc. connection lengths in and out, you will be getting some voltage drop that will require upsizing the wire gauge.


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## JoeD (Nov 8, 2020)

There are rules of thumb, but wanting ten 20 amp circuits tells me there must be some known large loads. Like kitchen you know there are large loads(toaster, coffee pot, microwave) that get plugged in so you put fewer receptacles on a circuit. Without knowing those loads it not possible size a feeder.


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## afjes_2016 (Nov 8, 2020)

Ron Van:


> When they build a house, the electricians don’t know what the potential load will be but they wire it anyway. Isn’t there a rule of thumb



This is not true. An electrician must know what the total loads/demand will be on the home/unit they are wiring. This is done by a "load calculation". This will determine the main feed and the individual circuits needed for wiring the home. Yes, you can judge the number of receptacles to place on any circuit but that is also dependent on what will be used on those circuits.

It is not as cut-and-dry and you may think.

Uniopp (the OP) has not given us yet the electrical needs of the equipment/lighting that is planned. We don't know the extent of the setup.


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## JoeD (Nov 9, 2020)

Ron Van said:


> When they build a house, the electricians don’t know what the potential load will be but they wire it anyway.


When you wire a house you have a good idea of the loads. You know kitchen and bathrooms have large loads like toasters, coffee pots, microwaves, hairdryers, etc.
Wiring specific purpose outbuilding you need more info.


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## Fireguy5674 (Nov 9, 2020)

While every house is slightly different based on the occupant, the electrician can account for many of the loads based on typical uses and the size of the house.  Years ago, even large houses often had a 60 AMP service.  As electrical demand increased, houses went to 100 AMP services.  Now 150 and 200 AMP services are common in homes.  Depending on size, specific requests or special needs they can be even larger.  The individual circuits and number of circuits are based on what loads are anticipated depending on the specific area of the house they serve.  Typically the kitchen has been an area where multiple 20 AMP circuits are used.  These assumptions continue to evolve as demands change.

So, knowing the exact anticipated loads up front is an advantage and allows for a more exact design approach.  That allows for adequate power without spending money on overkill.


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## Sparky617 (Nov 9, 2020)

For normal household wiring the outlets average out on each circuit.  Where you can get into trouble is if you have a real PC gamer type with multiple computers and old CRT monitors all on one circuit. Or a big audiophile/home theater set up.   With LED flat panels the current draw is much lower now than it was 10-15 years ago with CRTs.   In the kitchen things like microwaves, dishwashers and refrigerators have dedicated circuits and multiple 20amp circuits for the kitchen.  You can get into trouble if you are running an Instant Pot, Toaster Oven, and other heating type appliances all at once on the same 20 amp circuit.  Load calculations really matter for the big stuff: electric dryers, electric car chargers, HVAC systems, water heaters.  In the shop things like welders and stationary powertools come into play.  If it is just a homeonwer with a table saw, joiner, planer, lathe, drill press, miter saw he will probably never have a problem even if they were all in the same circuit if he never has more than one tool running at a time. Have some people over and run them all at the same time and he'll be tripping breakers.

With your sound stage the equipment will all be in use at the same time.


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## slownsteady (Nov 10, 2020)

Good thought about car chargers. They will be in demand in the coming years.


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## bud16415 (Nov 10, 2020)

slownsteady said:


> Good thought about car chargers. They will be in demand in the coming years.


That is an excellent point. It also goes to point out the current coming to our homes is not an infinite supply. Just like we can’t over load a circuit in our home without blowing something The demand of million and million of cars could likely brake the back of the power grid. It is a simple math calculation to convert the gasoline used today in propelling cars down the road to kilowatts of electricity that would be needed. As long as we keep burning fossil fuels to make electric or to power our cars it will be somewhat a wash I think other than what it will take to upgrade the grid and then upgrade our homes to handle the extra load. It’s just doing the same thing in a different way.



Now if we don’t use those fuels to make electricity then it takes a turn. That leaves wind, solar, nuclear and hydro. Nuclear is the easiest maybe but not likely followed by building dams for hydro also not to likely. So wind and solar is what gets talked about along with batteries to keep the power to fill the grid.

It will be something to watch build out for sure


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## afjes_2016 (Nov 11, 2020)

The main issue here is basically that when an electrician is contracted to wire a home the electrician will ask for a list of appliances etc that will be in the home other than the normal circuits. I know I did.

There is a distinct difference in determining the power needed for a home that will have the normal, electric range, electric dyer, electric (tank) hot water heater compared to a home that will have electric heat furnace, high demand tankless hot water heater etc. Also the square footage, number of bathrooms, size of kitchen (appliances) etc. Any electrician who has wired a house knows what I mean.

We can easily say that if a home has basic appliances such as electric dyer, electric range and tank hot water heater and that will be it we know what the demand will be without having to do much of a sit-down load calculations. Add in the larger demand appliances etc then a load calculation would be advisable. 

I wired a three family house once by myself. Three floors. The very first thing I did was sit down with the owner (landlord-it was a recon from a fire) and plan out the wiring needs for each unit. Each unit was also unique. Units ranged from a studio to a three bedroom.

So it really is not cut-and-dry when it comes to wiring a home.


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## Sparky617 (Nov 11, 2020)

bud16415 said:


> That is an excellent point. It also goes to point out the current coming to our homes is not an infinite supply. Just like we can’t over load a circuit in our home without blowing something The demand of million and million of cars could likely brake the back of the power grid. It is a simple math calculation to convert the gasoline used today in propelling cars down the road to kilowatts of electricity that would be needed. As long as we keep burning fossil fuels to make electric or to power our cars it will be somewhat a wash I think other than what it will take to upgrade the grid and then upgrade our homes to handle the extra load. It’s just doing the same thing in a different way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Serious greens know that nuke is going to be required to provide the base load.  Unicorn flatulence isn't going to power our increasingly electric world.  Without massive battery banks wind and solar can't carry the load 7x24, in northern regions you don't get enough sun during the short winter days to store much.

Our church looked at installing solar panels this year.  Even covering every square foot of the flat roof we couldn't get more than 50% of our power off of solar.  The economics just didn't add up since we're a non-profit and don't benefit from tax credits for solar. This was with a grant from the local utility.  We're also in the relatively sunny southern US.

I'm planning on wiring a 50amp circuit into my garage for an eventual EV.  I'm pulling the permits for my basement and will include the EV outlet with that work. Even if I don't get an EV while I own this place it is very likely someone will in the next 5-10 years.  At this point we intend to stay here for the foreseeable future.


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## bud16415 (Nov 11, 2020)

Sparky617 said:


> Serious greens know that nuke is going to be required to provide the base load.  Unicorn flatulence isn't going to power our increasingly electric world.  Without massive battery banks wind and solar can't carry the load 7x24, in northern regions you don't get enough sun during the short winter days to store much.
> 
> Our church looked at installing solar panels this year.  Even covering every square foot of the flat roof we couldn't get more than 50% of our power off of solar.  The economics just didn't add up since we're a non-profit and don't benefit from tax credits for solar. This was with a grant from the local utility.  We're also in the relatively sunny southern US.
> 
> I'm planning on wiring a 50amp circuit into my garage for an eventual EV.  I'm pulling the permits for my basement and will include the EV outlet with that work. Even if I don't get an EV while I own this place it is very likely someone will in the next 5-10 years.  At this point we intend to stay here for the foreseeable future.


Agree.



There is also the cost and energy in converting energies. I worked for GE for 43 years and we built wind units in my plant for a few years until the company told us to stop competing with our branch in China. There is nothing simple or cheap in producing any of this green stuff. We were also getting into huge battery setups for the power grid and that technology is really out there. I remember reading once a long time ago it took as much energy to make a solar cell as it would produce in its life. I’m sure that is no longer true but there is still some trade off.



Cash for clunkers was a good example of well intended programs. The energy waste of taking a car out of service in that the energy to build it was already out there and the replacement needs to be built it was much smarter to just let them die of old age.

I have a 100a circuit to my garage so I guess it would be easy to hook one up. I have it for the workshop and welder.


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## afjes_2016 (Nov 12, 2020)

.

And in the meantime we have not heard from the OP since Nov 6th.    

I guess we will never find out what type of equipment/lighting will be used so we won't be able to advise on the needs.

Oh Well

.


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## Sparky617 (Dec 7, 2020)

rickermilers said:


> I’ve got the same setup. I actually added another 100-watt panel for a little extra power.


I assume you mean 100 amp, 100 watts wouldn't be enough for a couple of light bulbs.


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## afjes_2016 (Dec 7, 2020)

.

*rickermilers*

First welcome to the forum



> I’ve got the same setup. I actually added another 100-watt panel for a little extra power.



We assume you mean 100amps

Just a little friendly information - unfortunately adding a panel does not give you extra power to use - only more circuit spaces. Upgrading your incoming "Service Entrance" and main panel/disconnect will give you extra power.


.


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