# I need contractor advice please



## havasu (Jun 15, 2016)

My G/F has an acquaintance  (female who lives alone, 60 Years Old) who is on a fixed income. She lives in a 1300 sq ft single family home. Her A/C is 40 years old and costs too much to operate. Thinking she would get really great deals on home improvement companies, she paid Angie's List $120 for a year's worth of referrals from selected experts who supposedly give her great deals. 

With Angie's list referral, she called a local general contractor to explain her dilemma. A salesman for the company came over and talked her into a whole house fan, saying these things are better than air conditioning, and 1/10th the cost. She quickly agreed.....then the sales pitches started. They told her the only way their whole house fan would work properly was if she added a gable vent fan. She quickly agreed to this as well. 

The sales pitch continued. The salesman told her that her batt insulation was dirty, unsanitary, and showed signs of mold since she had a small roof leak a few years ago (in a 120 degree attic in Southern California, yeah, right). They recommended removing and "sanitizing" the attic space, then blow in brand new, sterile insulation, which would really improve her insulation and make her whole house fan really energy efficient. 

After signing a dozen pages of legalese type, they told her they would start in the next day or two, and once she was happy, she would be required to pay the small fee of $6900 immediately. 

Work was postponed numerous times, but after several delays, they scrubbed her attic, an employee fell through her ceiling (leaving a 3' hole saying it was her attic's fault) cut several electrical wires, mounted the whole house fan alongside a gas pipe (touching) and broke a few A/C ducts. The whole house fan was set in lopsided, so one corner sticks about 1/2" lower than the other 3 sides. She said she would pay the amount once the work was finished and all the damage was fixed.

She spoke to me about this predicament last night. The first thing I did was ran this company using YELP, and discovered they were rated 2 out of 5 stars, and nobody had anything good to say about this company. They are known as hard sellers, pushy sales team, argumentative, and nothing good to say about this "Fly by Night" company. 

I am extremely pissed that these folks took her for a ride and screwed her royally. I have an A/C installer that could have installed an energy efficient system in her house for less than $4K! I suggested she refuse to pay them at all, and although I'm sure there will be a mechanic's lien on the house, but short of taking them to court and explain that this $400 Home Depot whole house fan ended up costing her $6900, what other options does she have?

I really despise people who take advantage of older, naive single women. Do any contractors have any advice they could offer me other than say that this was a lesson learned and to "Pay the Piper?"


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## nealtw (Jun 16, 2016)

That's ugly, where I live she would be SOL.
Angie's list is advertising a guarantee, as she needed an AC, I think she could argue, it doesn't work.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 16, 2016)

Since this "acquaintance" has informed you of this dilemma, have you volunteered to act as her agent, has she kept and accurate calendar of events and are you familiar with CA. lien law?

When they send the final billing, make sure it is itemized, detailed and all the lien releases are included.

And then the fun begins.

By the, whole house fans work very well, when the user is properly instructed and they are far less expensive to operate than the highest SEER HVAC.

Maybe your acquaintance should be advised that you would be willing to discuss any future repairs.


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## Chris (Jun 16, 2016)

There is ways to get this resolved. tell her not to pay them if she already hasn't. If she needs to buy time tell her to tell them she want's number 3 releases from their suppliers, a warranty letter and a conditional final release from them, all this is legal to ask for. What is this companies name or license number? I have some avenues I would rather not make to public.

Don't forget inspections and permits.

Call or text me and I can walk you through this.


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## Speedbump (Jun 16, 2016)

Then as a last resort, pay them a very small amount when all the screaming is over.  Agree to pay them $10.00 a month until paid off.  She is on a fixed income and this would probably fly.
I would also check on permits.  I'm sure if nothing else, an electrical permit would be required as I wouldn't want a whole house fan plugged into an AC outlet.  If you get the inspector down on them, they might back way off.

This post should be added to the Angies list post.


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## havasu (Jun 16, 2016)

Thanks for all the comments and ideas so far. Yes, once I heard about what happened, I decided to get involved. Before blasting negative comments on Angies List and Yelp, I want to make sure all my ducks are in order. This stuff really ticks me off. I told her that from this point forward, I will volunteer to give her a hand dealing with issues at her home.


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## Chris (Jun 16, 2016)

Call her city and see if a permit is required to remove and replace insulation and do electrical and add the fan. She should have copies of the permit.


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## nealtw (Jun 16, 2016)

There should be some proof of mold on the wood in the attic and what they did to clean that, did they install air chutes how much insulation did they install compared to what they charged for.
Why did it need a gable vent, does the house have soffet and box vents?


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## Chris (Jun 16, 2016)

All sorts of bad on this one.


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## havasu (Jun 16, 2016)

I just looked at the mess they called home improvement. She has a 2' square hole in one portion of her attic. There is two breaks in the ceiling drywall, which cracked the mud in a span of 10'. She has a hole in her heater closet where they tried adding the whole house fan, but then changed locations. She showed me a video clip of all the blown in insulation spinning around in the attic when the fan was turned on. The whole house fan was installed at such an angle that she has a 1/2" gap on one side, and the other side is flush. The final insult was the homeowner received a $250 gift card to cover the grief from all the damage they caused. 

Chris has been a great help and found out this contractor has lost his contractor's license twice in the past for unscrupulous activities. He also called the city she lives in and found out that no permit was pulled, so she is currently pulling a permit  and now getting the city inspectors involved. 

I appreciate everyone's help on this and I will keep all posted.


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## oldognewtrick (Jun 16, 2016)

What about contacting Angie's List and sharing the info. Hopefully they will delete this contractor from their list and save someone else the heartache she's going through.


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## havasu (Jun 16, 2016)

oldognewtrick said:


> What about contacting Angie's List and sharing the info. Hopefully they will delete this contractor from their list and save someone else the heartache she's going through.



That is a good idea except Angie's List is just a money grubbing entity who doesn't care what happens as long as the contractor pays their advertising on the site. I did advise the homeowner that you could deal with Angie's crap after she deals with the CSLB and this idiot contractor.

She went to the city and he remembered the conversation with Chris. He told her it was the contractor's responsibility to pull the permit, and would be waiting for him to walk through the doors. (It was apparent that the city inspector just wants to talk to the contractor, face to face)


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## oldognewtrick (Jun 16, 2016)

Oh, I agree it total about Angies List, it's a pay to play referral service.


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## Chris (Jun 17, 2016)

havasu said:


> That is a good idea except Angie's List is just a money grubbing entity who doesn't care what happens as long as the contractor pays their advertising on the site. I did advise the homeowner that you could deal with Angie's crap after she deals with the CSLB and this idiot contractor.
> 
> She went to the city and he remembered the conversation with Chris. He told her it was the contractor's responsibility to pull the permit, and would be waiting for him to walk through the doors. (It was apparent that the city inspector just wants to talk to the contractor, face to face)



I'm glad she went. He seemed like a decent guy when I talked to him on the phone. I hope she follows through with getting her stuff taken care of. He needs to fix his errors and man up or pay the consequences.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 17, 2016)

havasu said:


> She went to the city and he remembered the conversation with Chris.



Perhaps, for the benefit of the viewing audience, the two of you could share the process you employed to ascertain the information you've, thus far accumulated.

While it's sensational here-say about the contractors license being found in default, as a matter of integrity, why, what were the circumstance?



havasu said:


> He told her it was the contractor's responsibility to pull the permit, and would be waiting for him to walk through the doors. (It was apparent that the city inspector just wants to talk to the contractor, face to face)



Did the inspector, or chris, also inform you or your acquaintance that a Code Enforcement Permit could be applied for by the property owner?

By the way, it's;"The Dept. Of Consumer Affairs State Contractors License Board"


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## havasu (Jun 17, 2016)

I don't know exactly what had transpired between the city enforcement officer and the gal, but I do know she showed him the shoddy workmanship and even a video taken while the whole house fan was turned on low and as the gable fan was blowing. The blown in insulation was going everywhere and has now partially clogged the 1/4" mesh at the gable vent. 

The lady now understands that she will probably never get any discount on what she paid them to do, but at least everything is going to be looked at closely, and all the damage this guy did will get fixed.


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## Admin (Jun 17, 2016)

Thank you for looking out for her.   It's good when the guys with the white hat comes to help the damsel of any age in distress.   Especially an older damsel that has been fiscally taken advantage of and her home messed up royally.


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## KULTULZ (Jun 17, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Did the inspector, or chris, also inform you or your acquaintance that a *Code Enforcement Permit* could be applied for by the property owner?
> 
> By the way, it's;"The Dept. Of Consumer Affairs State Contractors License Board"



...hmmph...

Did not know that...

Is this in the states or Canada?


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## Chris (Jun 17, 2016)

It's here in California. The owner is ultimately responsible for permits and can pull them but it is usually done by the contractor.


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## KULTULZ (Jun 17, 2016)

Chris said:


> It's here in California. The owner is ultimately responsible for permits and can pull them but it is usually done by the contractor.



Now that can opens a can of worms...

If the contractor says, "*PERMITS?*...*PERMITS?*... I don't need no stinkin' permits!"

 How is the owner to know...


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## havasu (Jun 17, 2016)

I read her contract and it clearly states that if the work performed requires a permit, the homeowner will pay the cost of the permit, however any permit pulling will be done by the contractor. In my opinion, if this is an honest contractor, he will advise when a permit is required and act accordingly.


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## nealtw (Jun 17, 2016)

havasu said:


> I read her contract and it clearly states that if the work performed requires a permit, the homeowner will pay the cost of the permit, however any permit pulling will be done by the contractor. In my opinion, if this is an honest contractor, he will advise when a permit is required and act accordingly.



It's a game they play, if people refuse to pay, they tip the city that work has been done with out a permit just to make misery for the home owner.


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## havasu (Jun 17, 2016)

Just curious and I understand this doesn't apply, but if work is done already, with no permit pulled, how does the city confirm that work inside was done? Warrant? He said - she said?


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## nealtw (Jun 17, 2016)

They can ask to inspect thing that can not be seen.


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## havasu (Jun 17, 2016)

Ummm, that is quite illegal in the United States unless permission is allowed. At least 25 years in law enforcement taught me wrong?


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## nealtw (Jun 17, 2016)

havasu said:


> Ummm, that is quite illegal in the United States unless permission is allowed. At least 25 years in law enforcement taught me wrong?



I was talking about building inspectors that work for the city or the electrical inspectors.

We had a builder here that forgot to get a sheeting inspection, when the builder called for the insulation inspection. The inspector made him pull the insulation so he could beat on the inside of the sheeting to see if it was nailed, then he realized that it was a stress wall so he wanted to see the nails so all the siding had to come 2 walls.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 17, 2016)

havasu said:


> I read her contract and it clearly states that if the work performed requires a permit, the homeowner will pay the cost of the permit,



Which affords the contractor the ability to add the charge for the permit, as well as an administrative fee to the price that was initially negotiated. This also applies to any subsequently negotiated change orders.



havasu said:


> however any permit pulling will be done by the contractor. In my opinion, if this is an honest contractor, he will advise when a permit is required and act accordingly.



As a responsibility of his State License, and while the property owner is ultimatly responsible for the property, once you have signed a contract, the property owner is subordinated to the implied professional.

And by the way;"Perhaps, for the benefit of the viewing audience, the two of you could share the process you employed to ascertain the information you've, thus far accumulated."


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## Snoonyb (Jun 17, 2016)

havasu said:


> Ummm, that is quite illegal in the United States unless permission is allowed. At least 25 years in law enforcement taught me wrong?



"They can ask to inspect thing that can not be seen."

It's called a Code Enforcement Permit and is perfectly legal.


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## nealtw (Jun 17, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Which affords the contractor the ability to add the charge for the permit, as well as an administrative fee to the price that was initially negotiated. This also applies to any subsequently negotiated change orders.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If he has contracted to pull the permits and one was required, the rest of the contract is useless to him, he has to do what was contracted to do. 
Unless he had her sign a waver to that clause.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 17, 2016)

havasu said:


> The lady now understands that she will probably never get any discount on what she paid them to do, but at least everything is going to be looked at closely, and all the damage this guy did will get fixed.



Who erroneously told her that?

Whoever it was doesn't understand the process.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 17, 2016)

nealtw said:


> Unless he had her sign a waver to that clause.



The property owner cannot do that, nor can they be coerced into "signing her live away" which a waiver is tantamount to.


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## nealtw (Jun 17, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> The property owner cannot do that, nor can they be coerced into "signing her live away" which a waiver is tantamount to.



They get away with it here with old people, they draw a line thru that clause and have the costumer initialize it, they tell the customer that non are required but after that little trick the permit becomes the homeowner responsibility.
Lawyers don't like grey areas so people end up paying the bill.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 17, 2016)

nealtw said:


> They get away with it here with old people, they draw a line thru that clause and have the costumer initialize it, they tell the customer that non are required but after that little trick the permit becomes the homeowner responsibility.
> Lawyers don't like grey areas so people end up paying the bill.



What is generally waived here is the 3 day waiting period, and while it's legal, and the fool who signs that has only themselves to blame for what they get.

There is another little document that also comes into play, It's The Business and Professional Code.


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## nealtw (Jun 17, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> What is generally waived here is the 3 day waiting period, and while it's legal, and the fool who signs that has only themselves to blame for what they get.
> 
> There is another little document that also comes into play, It's The Business and Professional Code.



That's why they pick on old people. And when all is said and done they feel foolish and are more apt to take the blame and if they do go the legal way, there are no guarantees and the lawyers want money up front.:hide:


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## Snoonyb (Jun 17, 2016)

KULTULZ said:


> How is the owner to know...



Yellow pages.


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## nealtw (Jun 17, 2016)

Buyer beware. There should be no shame in being took, these people are good at what they do. I know a lawyer that got took. I felt really bad for him.


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## havasu (Jun 17, 2016)

Just so we are on the same page, I myself am just trying to learn the process. I'm certainly not trying to get everyone upset or think I am trying to be argumentative. I do know that a failure to pay will create a lien on the property. I'm just know that with a permit pulled, if there is a delay or non-completion of the permit, it just sits in the city files. I learned this well when I purchased this latest house. I learned that there were 3 non-completed permits pulled on my house and the inspector just shrugged his shoulders and said, "I really don't know" when I asked why. 

I just can't understand that with the 4th Amendment due process, nobody would be allowed inside a residence absent exigent circumstances or full permission to enter. Wondering if drywall is nailed ever 8" would not constitute exigent circumstances. 

Chris helped me by running this contractor on the public CSLB website. We learned that he lost his license twice as a result of unscrupulous activities, and based on his newly acquired bond, he has now piggy-backed with another contractor, who is currently licensed in this state. They are now both in cahoots with their whole house remodeling business, and have changed their name 3 times in 3 years and moved locations 3 separate times as well.


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## Chris (Jun 18, 2016)

Plus they were not licensed to do AC work which is why they talked her out of fixing the AC in the first place when they should have just backed out of the whole job and recommended the proper contractor.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 18, 2016)

havasu said:


> Just so we are on the same page, I myself am just trying to learn the process.



You had someone who ask you to contact him privately, who should have explained the process to you.

Actually, for the benefit of others, it should have been accomplished in public.



havasu said:


> I'm certainly not trying to get everyone upset or think I am trying to be argumentative. I do know that a failure to pay will create a lien on the property.



Have you taken the time to review the CA Lien Law? It's available on-line.

Actually, I can walk down the street, pick out an address and file a lien. Justifying and enforcing that lien is another story.

While a failure to pay can trigger an enforcement action against a property owner, there are prerequisites and often opposing legal action will cause a stay on that action.



havasu said:


> I'm just know that with a permit pulled, if there is a delay or non-completion of the permit, it just sits in the city files. I learned this well when I purchased this latest house. I learned that there were 3 non-completed permits pulled on my house and the inspector just shrugged his shoulders and said, "I really don't know" when I asked why.



This is why you ask for a copy of all permits before buying a property and why you do not pay until the permit/s have been finaled. 



havasu said:


> I just can't understand that with the 4th Amendment due process, nobody would be allowed inside a residence absent exigent circumstances or full permission to enter.



I could explain the numerous circumstance in which a code enforcement action originates, evolves, up to the City Attorneys referral, or, you could stop by city hall and ask.



havasu said:


> Wondering if drywall is nailed ever 8" would not constitute exigent circumstances.



It could. 



havasu said:


> Chris helped me by running this contractor on the public CSLB website.



Would that be CalStateLongBeach, or  "The Dept. Of Consumer Affairs State Contractors License Board"?

Something an interested party might find easier to locate, than CSLB.



havasu said:


> We learned that he lost his license twice as a result of unscrupulous activities, and based on his newly acquired bond, he has now piggy-backed with another contractor, who is currently licensed in this state. They are now both in cahoots with their whole house remodeling business, and have changed their name 3 times in 3 years and moved locations 3 separate times as well.



So, was this "in cahoots" elaborated upon, IE. is it an RME or an RMO, or a limited partnership. Information also available on-line.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 18, 2016)

Chris said:


> Plus they were not licensed to do AC work which is why they talked her out of fixing the AC in the first place when they should have just backed out of the whole job and recommended the proper contractor.



Individual trades are "C" licenses and often contractors will carry several C licenses, besides a B1 or B General.

Not carrying a C licenses does not preclude a B contractor from contracting for a project. What does, and it's the reason B contractors will carry several C, is because the sole B contractor must contract 3 permit-able trades.

It's a matter on economics, for the property owner.


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## havasu (Jun 18, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Would that be CalStateLongBeach, or  "The Dept. Of Consumer Affairs State Contractors License Board"?
> 
> Something an interested party might find easier to locate, than CSLB.



I don't understand your hang up on referring to the CSLB as THE DEPARTMENT OF CONSUMER AFFAIRS....


I simply type in CSLB on Google and here are the first five listings:

About 128,000 results (0.65 seconds) 
Search Results
Forms and Applications - Contractors State License Board
www.cslb.ca.gov/About_Us/Library/Forms_And_Applications.aspx
California
Watch CSLB's video on how to correctly complete a contractor license application. ... Include this form when submitting an "Application for Original Contractor ...
[PDF]Application for Contractors License - Contractors State License Board
www.cslb.ca.gov/.../FormsAndApplications/ApplicationForOriginalContract...
California
As part of the CSLB application process and as required by law, you must be ... Make sure you submit Certification of Work Experience forms that have.
Conditional and Unconditional Waiver and Release Forms ...
www.cslb.ca.gov/.../Conditional_And_Unconditional_Waiver_Release_For...
California
Conditional and Unconditional Waiver and Release Forms. General Principles: No lien release is binding unless the claimant signs and delivers a waiver and ...
Contractors State License Board
www.cslb.ca.gov/
California
The Contractors State License Board (CSLB) protects California consumers by ... Forms and Applications · Board Meetings · Disaster Help Center · CSLB Job ...
&#8206;Applicants · &#8206;Forms and Applications · &#8206;Consumers · &#8206;Licensed Contractors
New Mechanics Lien Release Forms Available on CSLB Website ...
www.cslb.ca.gov/Media_Room/Industry_Bulletins/2012/July_11.aspx
California
Jul 11, 2012 - Updated forms reflect legal changes that took effect July 1, 2012. SACRAMENTO &#8212; The Contractors State License Board (CSLB) is reminding ...

:beer:


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## Snoonyb (Jun 18, 2016)

Because quite simply, It's the State Department It is a branch of and, the correct title, WITHOUT having to go to google and wade through the alternatives.

Have you reviewed the lien laws yet?

Have you been made aware that the Licensing agency has an investigating branch, and they have subpoena powers?

So, before you advise your acquaintance that she cannot get a discount and that all is lost, you'd do well to dig a little deeper than the information you've thus far gleaned.


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## Chris (Jun 18, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Individual trades are "C" licenses and often contractors will carry several C licenses, besides a B1 or B General.
> 
> Not carrying a C licenses does not preclude a B contractor from contracting for a project. What does, and it's the reason B contractors will carry several C, is because the sole B contractor must contract 3 permit-able trades.
> 
> It's a matter on economics, for the property owner.



I am all to familiar with this, I am a Class A General Engineering license holder in California. A class B can do many of the Class C trades just like I can but there are Certain ones that we can not do regardless of combining them with two other trades. From what I have been told Air Conditioning is one of those that does not fall under the B class.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 18, 2016)

Chris said:


> I am all to familiar with this, I am a Class A General Engineering license holder in California. A class B can do many of the Class C trades just like I can but there are Certain ones that we can not do regardless of combining them with two other trades. From what I have been told Air Conditioning is one of those that does not fall under the B class.



My understanding is that a B general can contract for an HVAC project and obtain a permit for the project, when, there are two additional trades being performed. He can carry the two other C clarifications or sub all three, affording the subs a point of coordination and a single entity for the customer to communicate with.

Or the property owner can act as the general and deal with the coordinating themselves.

However, the elephant in the room is, how was this project performed. Did the contractor perform all the trades using in-house labor and after market suppliers who would not have filed a Preliminary Notice of Intent. Does the contract have a start and completion date? Is there a penalty clause?

The inspector anticipating a visit from the contractor is a wish in one hand, ---- in the other scenario.


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## Chris (Jun 18, 2016)

This is from CSLB (California State License Board) 

He can not legally do the AC by itself.


"B" General Building Contractor

How is a "B" General Building contractor defined in Contractors License Law?

Section 7057(a) broadly defines general building contractor as a contractor whose principal business is in connection with any structure built, being built, or to be built, requiring in its construction the use of at least two unrelated building trades or crafts; however, framing or carpentry projects may be performed without limitation. In some instances, a general building contractor may take a contract for projects involving one trade only if the general contractor holds the appropriate specialty license or subcontracts with an appropriately licensed specialty contractor to perform the work.

Subsections (b) & (c) of B&P Code section 7057 specifically define the situations in which a "B" contractor may take a prime contract or subcontract.

The last part of the first paragraph of B&P Code section 7057 states "...or to do or superintend the whole or any part thereof." What does this mean?

Any projects, or portions thereof, that are identified under Section 7057 as appropriate for the "B" General Building classification may be completed by a "B" contractor through the licensee's own forces, and/or by overseeing (superintending) the work of properly licensed subcontractors.

How does CSLB differentiate between a prime contract and a subcontract?

Any projects, or portions thereof, that are identified under Section 7057 as appropriate for the "B" General Building classification may be completed by a "B" contractor through the licensee's own forces, and/or by overseeing (superintending) the work of properly licensed subcontractors.

What prime contracts or subcontracts can a "B" contractor take?

A "B" contractor can take a prime contract or subcontract for:

Framing or carpentry projects; or
Projects that require at least two unrelated building trades other than framing or carpentry (cannot count framing or carpentry as one of the two unrelated trades); or
Any specialty projects (even if less than two unrelated trades) for which the "B" contractor also holds the required specialty class.
Can a "B" contractor take a "prime contract" for a single specialty trade?

A "B" contractor may take a prime contract for any specialty project (even if less than two trades); if the "B" contractor holds the specialty classification or subcontracts the work to an appropriately licensed specialty contractor.

Can a General Building ("B") contractor take a "subcontract" for work involving a single trade if he plans to sub the work out?

As provided in B&P Code section 7057(b), a "B" contractor cannot take any subcontract (a subcontract is when the "B" does not have a direct contractual relation with the owner of property) for any single trade project (excluding framing or carpentry), unless he/she holds the required specialty license classification. For example, a "B" contractor may take a prime contract (contract directly with the owner of the property) to roof a home, then subcontract the work to a licensed C-39 Roofing contractor. However, a "B" may not take a subcontract to roof a home, then subcontract the work out.

Can a "B" contractor take a contract for fire protection or well drilling work?

Section 7057(c) prohibits a "B" contractor from taking a contract for any project that includes work covered under a C-16 Fire Protection or C-57 Well Drilling classification, unless the "B" contractor either holds the C-16 or C-57 class or subcontracts the work to a properly licensed specialty contractor.

Can a "B" contractor obtain a roofing permit when the work involves replacing facia board, painting eaves, and applying a new roof cover?

If the work is part of an overall general building project, then yes, the "B" contractor could obtain a roofing permit and perform or subcontract the work.

The first paragraph of B&P Code section 7057 refers to "chattels." What are chattels?

Webster's Collegiate Dictionary defines chattels as: "an item of tangible movable or immovable property except real estate, freehold, and things (as buildings) connected with real property." Example: A tool or equipment shed is a structure that is designed to house "chattels."

http://www.cslb.ca.gov/About_US/FAQS/Building_Official_Information_Guide.aspx


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## havasu (Jun 18, 2016)

You forgot to add THE DEPARTMENT OF CONSUMER AFFAIRS....:hide:


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## Snoonyb (Jun 18, 2016)

havasu said:


> You forgot to add THE DEPARTMENT OF CONSUMER AFFAIRS....:hide:



Reread the first sentence.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 18, 2016)

Thanks for the publishing the information so that the viewing audience has some Idea of how to proceed should they find themselves in a dilemma.

"He can not legally do the AC by itself."

Unless he holds that C license and permits it as a C permit.

I wonder how the conclusion was arrived at, that the property owner could not negotiate a discount?

As I see it there are 3 C trades involved, even though 2 of them were by virtue of change orders, and by the way, were they legally presented and an amendment to the original contracted presented?


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## havasu (Jun 18, 2016)

She wanted air but was diverted to the fans. Im not saying a reduction is out of the question as this will be something the homeowners could negotiate but im just trying to help her but not take over. The bigger question currently is how are they planning on fixing the 10 items damaged as a result of this shoddy company.  She submitted all claims and pictures via email to the president of the company, and is waiting on a response right now.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 18, 2016)

Thanks.

Could you post her list of demands?


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## Chris (Jun 19, 2016)

To me I see the shady part as she originally called to have AC replaced on her house, that is where an ethical contractor would have backed down and told her that is not there specialty and referred someone else to do the job and not try and talk her into (1) something she did not ask for and (2) something they knew would give the same end result. A whole house fan is good in combination with a proper working AC but not a good replacement of a proper working AC.

When we take our California State License Test they keep going to ethics and what is ethical. They know it is easy to take advantage of people that are not educated in our fields and these people trust us to do the right thing for them.

This Contractor knew from the get go that he was swindling a person for profit and that is what bothers me. He knew he couldn't give what was asked so he to an avenue he was licensed for ans sold her on it knowing full well that the end result is not what she was wanting.

When she turns that whole house fan on tomorrow when it is 110 outside does he think it will cool the house down to 78 like the AC would? Plain and simple took advantage of someone.


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## Chris (Jun 19, 2016)

havasu said:


> She wanted air but was diverted to the fans. Im not saying a reduction is out of the question as this will be something the homeowners could negotiate but im just trying to help her but not take over. The bigger question currently is how are they planning on fixing the 10 items damaged as a result of this shoddy company.  She submitted all claims and pictures via email to the president of the company, and is waiting on a response right now.



In California the must give in writing a request for repairs to be done, from there I am not sure how long she must wait but in the end if they are not done she can legally use the money she was going to pay them to hire a licensed contractor to complete the repairs. I will have to look up the law on that.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 19, 2016)

Chris said:


> To me I see the shady part as she originally called to have AC replaced on her house, that is where an ethical contractor would have backed down and told her that is not there specialty and referred someone else to do the job and not try and talk her into (1) something she did not ask for and (2) something they knew would give the same end result.He can not legally do the AC by itself.



Absents of ethics and integrity, while not illegal, are as often as not a sales stock in trade.

But where was the property owners evidence of competing estimates, is she devoid of a social network and why now that the barn door was left open, the horse was not only featured at the local French restaurant, but was collected and distributed to 2nd harvest recipients, did she reach out to HAVASU?

You sleep in the bed you made.



Chris said:


> A whole house fan is good in combination with a proper working AC but not a good replacement of a proper working AC.



They are opposing in operation and will not work in conjunction with each other, yet can be efficient when properly operated.

I've achieved a 50 degree temp. differential in Willow Valley Ariz. and replaced 2 of 3, 3 ton AC's, with 48" units, in two different Tudor style homes near Carson and Lakewood Blvd.

However, their efficiency is subordinate to humidity and the education of the property owner 



Chris said:


> He can not legally do the AC by itself.



And again, unless he holds that C license.



Chris said:


> When she turns that whole house fan on tomorrow when it is 110 outside does he think it will cool the house down to 78 like the AC would?



None of us know that, but getting information about it, is a case of internet dentistry.

We are now on pg. 6, and one wonders how it could have been shortened, had the whole story been in the initial post, instead of drips an drabs.



Chris said:


> Plain and simple took advantage of someone.



Buyer beware.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 19, 2016)

Chris said:


> In California the must give in writing a request for repairs to be done,



?



Chris said:


> from there I am not sure how long she must wait but in the end if they are not done she can legally use the money she was going to pay them to hire a licensed contractor to complete the repairs. I will have to look up the law on that.



There are specific requirements for abandonment and substitution.


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## havasu (Jun 19, 2016)

Snoony, I am trying to be specific as possible, but still keep the confidentiality for all involved.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 19, 2016)

havasu said:


> Snoony, I am trying to be specific as possible, but still keep the confidentiality for all involved.



I understand that, but no one besides you and chris know, much less, have asked for the identity of either parties to the agreement, nor will I ever, and nothing I'm curious about would have revealed that.

What troubles me, is the apparent capitulation, while I have already seen, from your post, a couple of questionable conditions.


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## Chris (Jun 19, 2016)

I agree she should have gotten three quotes.

I don't agree that she should have to suffer because someone she is supposed to be able to trust swindled her. Anyone and everyone can be taken at some point. We put a lot of trust in people when we simply don't have experience. 

Our society has definitely become a place where everyone tries to rip everyone off and you are supposed to know that and have to fight for fairness. Maybe she didn't grow up in a time when people did this or maybe she is sheltered? I don't know. I just know that is not how I do business.

Imagine if this were your mother that got swindled? Would you change your tune on it being her fault?

He is licensed for B general building and a C license for insulation. That's it.

Once again, not licensed for AC, which is what she needed and wanted.

That's like taking your car to the shop to have the AC fixed and they roll your windows down for you and charge you 500 bucks to do it.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 19, 2016)

Chris said:


> I don't agree that she should have to suffer because someone she is supposed to be able to trust swindled her. Anyone and everyone can be taken at some point. We put a lot of trust in people when we simply don't have experience.



She absolutely bears some of the responsibility for "allowing" herself to be swindled, by a person she had no previous knowledge, familiarity or association with. CA. is rife with news of unscrupulous contractors and swindlers. 



Chris said:


> Our society has definitely become a place where everyone tries to rip everyone off and you are supposed to know that and have to fight for fairness. Maybe she didn't grow up in a time when people did this or maybe she is sheltered? I don't know. I just know that is not how I do business.



Neither do I, Short of, at gun point, I refuse to take a deposit.



Chris said:


> Imagine if this were your mother that got swindled? Would you change your tune on it being her fault?



With her knowing that I was in the business, it wouldn't have and all the information I've asked for here, and have yet to receive, I would ask of her, without which the solution would be the capitulation that HAVASU has allude the property owner should be relegated too.


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## Chris (Jun 19, 2016)

I am not going to read back but here is the scenario.

Older single lady needs her AC unit replaced.

Goes on Angieslist and pays for upgraded membership to get quality contractor

Angieslist recommends General building contractor to look at project.

Contractor shows up and when she asks for new AC unit he talks her into a whole house fan and Gable fan

Contractor then talks her into removing old insulation to install new insulation in attic area.

Work is performed at less than professional standards and contractor caused a lot of damage to existing house. (Cut insulation off electrical lines and fixed with tape, broke ceiling drywall in many places and stepped on it causing nails/screws to pull through to where drywall is barely hanging on) Stipulates that his contract says he is not responsible to fix any of this.

This is when it was posted here.

I stepped in and looked said company on public state website to verify licensing. I found this is the third company name and license that this company has used in the last few years, this comapny was started less than a year ago. The last company has a suspended license for for failure to satisfy a complaint.

I sent email to Havasu with list of steps to do in this situatuion.

1. start all correspondence in writing via email or letter.
2. make list of all concerns and problems to give to contractor o have fixed before paymnet is made.
3. Ask for lien releases from suppliers and contractor before payment is made
4. Ask for general liabilty policy showing work comp if employees were used on job.
5. If not satisfied continue to file complaint with state license board as they will step in and help
6. go to city and see if permit was needed for work performed


From there I made a call to the city in their behalf and talked to the planning dept that said that any and all electrical work needed a permit, insulation did not.

Home owner notice that when the fans were turned on the blown insulation flew around and was getting stuck in fans. She asked contractor and he said it was not in his contract to make sure this did not happen and wanted to charge more to fix it. 

In California there is a thing called best practices and since it was Contractors design it was his responsibility to make sure insulation would not do this.

Homeowner wrote letter with 14 items that were concerns or problems, contractor came out and said 12 of them were not his responsibility and left.

As of today insulation is plugged up fan and black pieces are falling out of it. System has been operational for less than a couple weeks and is already failing. Contractor will not take any responsibility for any of these issues.

Contractor insists a permit was not needed for adding electrical or fans even though city says it was.

This is where we are at today.

I am not in the business to screw other contractors but it is guys like this that give us ethical contractors a bad name and we don't need anymore of that.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 19, 2016)

Chris said:


> Goes on Angieslist and pays for upgraded membership to get quality contractor



Her 1st mistake.



Chris said:


> Angieslist recommends General building contractor to look at project.



As evidenced.



Chris said:


> Contractor then talks her into removing old insulation to install new insulation in attic area.



Were these all conducted in a single sales session, or separate visits?

&#8220;Msg. #1
They told her the only way their whole house fan would work properly was if she added a gable vent fan. She quickly agreed to this as well. 

The sales pitch continued. The salesman told her that her batt insulation was dirty, unsanitary, and showed signs of mold since she had a small roof leak a few years ago (in a 120 degree attic in Southern California, yeah, right). They recommended removing and "sanitizing" the attic space, then blow in brand new, sterile insulation, which would really improve her insulation and make her whole house fan really energy efficient.&#8221;



Chris said:


> Work is performed at less than professional standards and contractor caused a lot of damage to existing house. (Cut insulation off electrical lines and fixed with tape, broke ceiling drywall in many places and stepped on it causing nails/screws to pull through to where drywall is barely hanging on) Stipulates that his contract says he is not responsible to fix any of this.



Who evidenced these Items; &#8220;Cut insulation off electrical lines and fixed with tape, broke ceiling drywall in many places and stepped on it causing nails/screws to pull through to where drywall is barely hanging on?&#8221;

What clause in the contract is he siting that holds him harmless?



Chris said:


> This is when it was posted here.
> 
> I stepped in and looked said company on public state website to verify licensing. I found this is the third company name and license that this company has used in the last few years, this comapny was started less than a year ago. The last company has a suspended license for for failure to satisfy a complaint.





Chris said:


> I sent email to Havasu with list of steps to do in this situatuion.
> 
> start all correspondence in writing via email or letter.
> Is the project complete?
> ...






Chris said:


> From there I made a call to the city in their behalf and talked to the planning dept that said that any and all electrical work needed a permit, insulation did not.



Did you ask by address and if not, did you ask if there was Knob and Tube wiring in the attic, would it make a difference?



Chris said:


> Home owner notice that when the fans were turned on the blown insulation flew around and was getting stuck in fans. She asked contractor and he said it was not in his contract to make sure this did not happen and wanted to charge more to fix it.



Are they energized together, from a new switch or from the ceiling fans pull-chain?

Was the clause again Identified?



Chris said:


> Homeowner wrote letter with 14 items that were concerns or problems, contractor came out and said 12 of them were not his responsibility and left.



Did he follow up in writing or did she with a confirmation of the conversation correspondence?



Chris said:


> Contractor insists a permit was not needed for adding electrical or fans even though city says it was.



Have her visit the Building Dept. and ask for the applicable code section.

Who arrived at this conclusion, and based upon what?

Msg.#16
The lady now understands that she will probably never get any discount on what she paid them to do, but at least everything is going to be looked at closely, and all the damage this guy did will get fixed.


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## havasu (Jun 19, 2016)

The email letter was sent off. They did not respond but called her, then personally visited the house, where he denied his crew did any damage except the falling through the drywall and the damage to the attic entrance. They shot a can of texture onto the raw drywall and said, "there, it's good as new." I saw for myself the before and after pics. They tied both electrical lines into existing boxes in the attic, which I assume are for the ceiling lights.


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## Chris (Jun 19, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> Her 1st mistake.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree Angieslist is a scam and should be out of business. 

She saw the wire and took pictures, they came back and fixed with electrical tape when she brought up concern.

Havasu himself went to property to take a look and took pictures of all damages that were not there before hand and before you ask I doubt they had picture of before hand as most of us don't.

Not sure if all in a single session or not but I assume so.

Project is complete to the liking of contractor but not home owner.

I assume but don't know that final billing has been made.

Wiring was current Romex type. I did not ask by address because the entire city has the same standards for permit issuance on electrical. The city planning head and inspector verified that you can not add the fans and switches without a permit. Yes they had to run new wiring in the walls for new pernament switches.

Not sure if he followed up in writing, I doubt it because that admits guilt.

Says its in his contract to not cover damages, I personally did not read it because I am not there.


I Assume you as a contractor yourself already know most of this and are bringing it up for the general population to see. I am not sure why you lean more toward the homeowner being at fault than the contractor in this instance? I do agree that people need to and should do more research before hiring someone but I also live in the real world. It took me years to figure this stuff out and I still don't know it all. 

That is all I really know about this situation. I stepped in for about 15 minutes to help with steps to take and that is where I left it. 

I don't know, maybe she did deserve to get ripped off and the contractor is in the right to do ****ty work and run? She should have known he was a swindler. Maybe she should have gone to the city and researched the permit process for adding a new fan before she called for her AC to be repaired? I am not sure where you are going with this?


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## Snoonyb (Jun 19, 2016)

havasu said:


> The email letter was sent off. They did not respond but called her, then personally visited the house, where he denied his crew did any damage except the falling through the drywall and the damage to the attic entrance. They shot a can of texture onto the raw drywall and said, "there, it's good as new." I saw for myself the before and after pics. They tied both electrical lines into existing boxes in the attic, which I assume are for the ceiling lights.



Do you have a copy of her email?

The response was to avoid a paper trail, however, even though CA. is a equal consent state, a smart phone in a blouse pocket, set on record, as well as a second party being present at any subsequent,"scheduled", visits adds accuracy to a written follow-up msg.

And the paint was an exact match?

You had mentioned that the first attempted location was in the heater compartment. Was that comfort heat or water heat, and was any damage there patched correctly?

Was the romex secured within 9" of the tie in?

What is the size of the boxes and how deep?

How many individual romex enter each box?


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## Snoonyb (Jun 19, 2016)

Chris said:


> Wiring was current Romex type. I did not ask by address because the entire city has the same standards for permit issuance on electrical. The city planning head and inspector verified that you can not add the fans and switches without a permit. Yes they had to run new wiring in the walls for new pernament switches.



There are still a lot of dwellings in CA with Knob and Tube wiring and it cannot be buried with insulation.



Chris said:


> Says its in his contract to not cover damages, I personally did not read it because I am not there.



That clause should be a question answered, without benefit of legal counsel.



Chris said:


> I Assume you as a contractor yourself already know most of this and are bringing it up for the general population to see.



Exactly and It's the reason I abhor dragging these things out.



Chris said:


> I am not sure why you lean more toward the homeowner being at fault than the contractor in this instance?



That may be your perception and It's inaccurate, however admitting responsibility, open ones eyes.



Chris said:


> I do agree that people need to and should do more research before hiring someone but I also live in the real world. It took me years to figure this stuff out and I still don't know it all.
> 
> That is all I really know about this situation. I stepped in for about 15 minutes to help with steps to take and that is where I left it.



Thanks for the broadening of horizons the incite provides. 



Chris said:


> I am not sure where you are going with this?



When you make the process onerous, people are inclined to settle.

Sometimes a Lawyer Letter can preclude a license board complaint, and sometimes they piggy back.


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