# Help w/ pre-existing wiring



## PromethusBound (Jun 12, 2017)

So we had to demo the front 1/2 of our garage and as part of that effort, I need to relocate the power that was run to the front half to the back now. Unfortunately, I didn't pay attention when we were doing the demo to label the power cables.  So the pipe has (1)White (1)Black (1)Yellow and (2) Blue wires. I ran the voltage detector against them and I see that Black and Yellow are hot and the rest show nothing. Does that make any sense? I would assume White would be hot, black negative and yellow ground, or am I wrong? Could they have run dual power lines out there? If so they are both hooked up to a single small breaker so that doesn't seem to make sense. I attached some photos any suggestions would be appreciated.


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## bud16415 (Jun 12, 2017)

Black is hot white is what they call or used to call the common wire and it goes to ground so measuring 120v on the black to the white sounds correct. Normal wiring if there was a second hot connector it would be red, in your case someone ran some weird color wires for some reason. Blue wire is common for DC voltage. 

If you measure black to white and get 120v and yellow to white and get 120v and then measure black to yellow and get 240v or numbers around that then those 3 wires are or could be a multi wire branch circuit. 

I&#8217;m also assuming you are in North America and not Europe. 

Do you feel comfortable working with this Electricity? If not you should get a pro to look at this. 

You need to find what feeds these wires and disconnect it on the other end.  

What were these wires connected to?


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## nealtw (Jun 12, 2017)

If it comes from the house, let's see how it is wired there.


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## PromethusBound (Jun 12, 2017)

So I just spend some more time out there after reading the meter's manual again I now have some results that make more sense. If I test the black one with any other wire I get between 115-119 volts. The only wire I get 119 from is the white wire which makes me believe that those are +/- and the rest are showing up as 115 so could they all be grounded?


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## PromethusBound (Jun 12, 2017)

I checked the breaker inside the house but it only had a single red wire connected which doesn't match anything outside. Unfortunately, I can't tell where they ran the wires from w/o tearing up the ground and possibly asphalt.


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## nealtw (Jun 12, 2017)

PromethusBound said:


> I checked the breaker inside the house but it only had a single red wire connected which doesn't match anything outside. Unfortunately, I can't tell where they ran the wires from w/o tearing up the ground and possibly asphalt.



OK, twenty questions.

What did you have in the garage,.
 A breaker panel? 
# of outlets
# of lights in side
# of lights outside.
special outlets for compressor or welder or?

You could have 3 wires for 120 volt
You could  have 4 wires for 120 volt
You can have 3 wires for 240
you can have 4 wires for 240.

You can not have anything with one red wire.

Did you have lights that could be controlled from the house?


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## PromethusBound (Jun 12, 2017)

The garage had a single 120 outlet, a couple of interior lights and a garage door opener. No breaker in the garage. The red wire is the only wire I am seeing going directly to that specific breaker. I am not aware of any switches inside the house but I am seeing piss poor wiring all over the place. Like our front walkway lamp post that can only be turned off by using the breaker panel and even then it kills 1/2 our kitchens power. No reason I would think 240 is an option, the W/D set that was already in place was 120 and there is no 240 anywhere else in the house.


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## nealtw (Jun 12, 2017)

PromethusBound said:


> The garage had a single 120 outlet, a couple of interior lights and a garage door opener. No breaker in the garage. The red wire is the only wire I am seeing going directly to that specific breaker. I am not aware of any switches inside the house but I am seeing piss poor wiring all over the place. Like our front walkway lamp post that can only be turned off by using the breaker panel and even then it kills 1/2 our kitchens power. No reason I would think 240 is an option, the W/D set that was already in place was 120 and there is no 240 anywhere else in the house.



Red wire come from a conduit or cable in the breaker box  the other wires from the conduit go to common, (wire wires),  ground ( bear wires)
Anything else.

Did the power to the door opener go out when the breaker for the light was turned off. 
Most time the ditch for wiring will be a fairly straight line so dig up a few feet of wire to see where on the house it is pointing.


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## nealtw (Jun 12, 2017)

PromethusBound said:


> So I just spend some more time out there after reading the meter's manual again I now have some results that make more sense. If I test the black one with any other wire I get between 115-119 volts. The only wire I get 119 from is the white wire which makes me believe that those are +/- and the rest are showing up as 115 so could they all be grounded?



To get readings like that you are touching power and ground or power and neutral. 

Sometimes you can get some reading between common and ground but I doubt it would be that high.

Turn off that one breaker and check the wire ends for power again, just to make sure there is only one breaker involved.


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## bud16415 (Jun 13, 2017)

Neal&#8217;s advice is correct. Turn off the breaker and check the wires again. If with the breakers off the power is dead hopefully that one breaker was just for the garage and you can unhook the red wire and it is all dead and you can safely forget about it all and leave it in the ground. Under no circumstances leave any hot wire in the ground like that capped off. If you need power to the garage now run a new line that you know what is in it and how it is wired.  

Your electrical skills seem very limited based on some of your comments. Again if you don&#8217;t feel ready to unhook wires inside your breaker panel, get a pro or even a friend that has done this work to help. There is 240v inside that panel and it is nothing to mess around with if you are not sure of what you are doing.


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## PromethusBound (Jun 13, 2017)

I have verified that all power is dead when the breaker is off. At this point, my only remaining concern would be how to determine which is actually ground. I would assume that would be yellow, hard to imagine any decent electrician would use one of the blue wires for that purpose since they look so close in color to each other.


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## nealtw (Jun 13, 2017)

PromethusBound said:


> I have verified that all power is dead when the breaker is off. At this point, my only remaining concern would be how to determine which is actually ground. I would assume that would be yellow, hard to imagine any decent electrician would use one of the blue wires for that purpose since they look so close in color to each other.



So do we want to get to the answer or just guess at it.

You have a set of wires in the ground.
You have a set of wires in the breaker box.
You have to find  the junction box or boxes where those groups of wires meet and then go from there with the information gained there.


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## afjes_2016 (Jun 14, 2017)

As already mentioned; no guess work :nono:  when working with electrical wires. It can cause serious problems if you are not absolutely sure what wire is what.

Look to see what wires are coming into the panel; check each color wire and where it is going. Then the wires on the other end should match up. But if there is a jbox between the panel and the end the wires could have been mixed-matched when connected in the jbox for whatever reasons.



> I would assume that would be yellow, hard to imagine any decent  electrician would use one of the blue wires for that purpose since they  look so close in color to each other.


Exactly what we are talking about. No guess work here. It is not so much that you would think an electrician would not use blue but instead yellow really means nothing as if the electrician followed code he/she would have marked the ground wire designating as ground with green tape etc. Same for the neutral wire (no such thing as "common" wire). Then the other two would be hot wires.


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## bud16415 (Jun 14, 2017)

I have kind of been following this thread and I guess the question no one has asked yet is, What are you trying to archive?

Do you just want to render these wires and your house and garage safe? Or are you planning on somehow repurposing these runs to repower the half of the garage you saved? 

What is your end goal?

There is nothing unsafe with leaving disconnected wires in the ground or walls etc. if they are not in any way connected to the power center. You can&#8217;t cap the ends and bury them in the ground, but if you trace them back to a legal junction box it is then safe to cap them off for future use.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 14, 2017)

PromethusBound said:


> I have verified that all power is dead when the breaker is off. At this point, my only remaining concern would be how to determine which is actually ground. I would assume that would be yellow, hard to imagine any decent electrician would use one of the blue wires for that purpose since they look so close in color to each other.



There may not be a "specific" grnd. conductor, as is commonly understood.

Is the conduit in photo #1 plastic or metal?

If the conduit is metal, one of the conductors could be bonded to a box within the structure, which in-turn would give you a voltage reading, if metallic conduit is the method of general wiring in the dwelling, without that specific conductor being connected in the service panel.


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## afjes_2016 (Jun 14, 2017)

PromethusBound said:


> So I just spend some more time out there after reading the meter's manual again I now have some results that make more sense. If I test the black one with any other wire I get between 115-119 volts. The only wire I get 119 from is the white wire which makes me believe that those are +/- and the rest are showing up as 115 so could they all be grounded?



Wait a second. Please something does not sound "kosher" the way you explain it.

First of all let's try and stay with proper terminology so we can all follow you properly during your investigation and at the same time give you some education (no disrespect here; just trying to keep you safe at the end).

In the above you state the only one you get power from is the black with "ANY" other one. I don't feel comfortable with this result or you are not reading your meter correctly maybe. You should be getting different readings depending on what other wire/s you touch with your meter. You need to be specific when you say "other wires". First of all how many wires are there and what are their colors at both the end (as per your picture) and what colors are connected to the breaker/s ground neutral bars in the panel. Also, do you know for a fact if there is a jbox between the breaker panel and the end (in your picture).

Also then you state above "The only wire I get 119 from is the white wire" you can't get power from only just one wire with your meter. What wire did you touch with the meter besides the white?

"which makes me believe that those are +/-" what do you mean by this. AC is different than DC in so many ways. There is no "-" or "+" in AC. Not trying to be difficult with you but I just don't want to see you hurt yourself.

Let's all get our "lingo" straight and together so we know what each wire is representing. 

We must remember what PromethusBound said.
"The garage had a single 120 outlet, a couple of interior lights and a garage door opener. *No breaker in the garage.*" Therefore it would be incorrect for us to assume that there are two hots, one neutral and a ground wire going to the garage. My mind is telling me that who ever ran these lines may have broken code by running more than one circuit to the garage. Anyway, we have to stop and slow down a bit for PromethusBound.

PromethusBound also states "The red wire is the only wire I am seeing going directly to that specific breaker." All those wires and only one connected to a breaker with power from at least two that PromethusBound has mentioned so far.

PromethusBound, please understand I am not trying to single you out of this conversation. I am trying to get a better picture (we are trying to) so we know how to guide you. We are not there, we can't test your wires for you nor can we see the breaker panel feeding these wires. For this reason we must get a "clearer" picture (understanding) of what is what before we can advise you properly. Your safety is our (members here who assist) number one goal.

Ok a big question. PromethusBound are you in the US? or another county? I only ask because you do not specify and electrical is/can be different in other counties. The colors you are mentioning are not standard colors for the US; however being in conduit individual conductors can be run and any color can be used; but standard is black, red, white, green etc; or all black with colored tapes designating what each wire is. Is there a junction box between your breaker panel and the garage wires? 

Since we all are not working with the standard /2 or /3 Romex here we have no idea what was done and how it was done in the way of running power out to the garage. Also no breaker panel in the garage according to PromethusBound. I suggest we all take a step back and start from the beginning. I only say this because of the inconsistencies that I am noticing here in the replies.

And again as Nealtw points out that you say which does not make sense with all these wires as "I have verified that all power is dead when *the *breaker is off." The breaker?? A single pole breaker or two pole breaker, do you know the difference; if not let us know because i can't see how you can have all these wires and only one is connected to a breaker if single pole.

Ok, I have said enough. I think we all know what I mean and what my concern is here.

PromethusBound please keep in mind with terminology.
Hot wire - wire connected to the breaker. _*Un*_-grounded conductor
Neutral wire - (not common or negative) connected to the neutral bar of your panel (see NOTE below)- Ground_*ED*_ conductor
Ground wire - connected to your ground bar of your panel.  Ground_*ING*_ conductor. (see NOTE below)
This all makes a big difference.

Note: if the wires are connected to a main panel the ground and neutral may/will be on the same bar or ones connected. If a sub panel the ground and neutral will be isolated from each other.


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## PromethusBound (Jun 15, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> I have kind of been following this thread and I guess the question no one has asked yet is, What are you trying to archive?
> 
> Do you just want to render these wires and your house and garage safe? Or are you planning on somehow repurposing these runs to repower the half of the garage you saved?
> 
> ...




I was hoping to extend it to the new garage to power an outlet and a single overhead light.


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## PromethusBound (Jun 15, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> I have kind of been following this thread and I guess the question no one has asked yet is, What are you trying to archive?
> 
> Do you just want to render these wires and your house and garage safe? Or are you planning on somehow repurposing these runs to repower the half of the garage you saved?
> 
> ...





Snoonyb said:


> There may not be a "specific" grnd. conductor, as is commonly understood.
> 
> Is the conduit in photo #1 plastic or metal?
> 
> If the conduit is metal, one of the conductors could be bonded to a box within the structure, which in-turn would give you a voltage reading, if metallic conduit is the method of general wiring in the dwelling, without that specific conductor being connected in the service panel.




The condiuit is metal. If I have the + and - can I just ground the wiring inside the garage?


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## nealtw (Jun 15, 2017)

:nono:.................


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## Snoonyb (Jun 15, 2017)

PromethusBound said:


> The condiuit is metal. If I have the + and - can I just ground the wiring inside the garage?



1st of all, with the breaker on, which of the conductors read near 120V to the metal conduit?

2nd can you provide a more panoramic view of the area surrounding the exposed end of the conduit?


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## afjes_2016 (Jun 16, 2017)

PromethusBound said:


> The condiuit is metal. If I have the *+ and -* can I just ground the wiring inside the garage?



Ok, maybe others know what you are referring to here as + and - but I don't and in order for me to assist you I need to understand. I can't attempt to answer this question with any certainty if I don't know what you are referring to.

Also, what do you mean by "just ground the wiring inside the garage"? Ground it how?


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## bud16415 (Jun 16, 2017)

What afjes_2016 is saying. The wires you show are AC alternating current. They switch from + to &#8211;   , 60 times per second. There is no plus or minus that is for batteries that put out DC or direct current. 

The term most used now are HOT for the power wire and neutral for the other leg of the power. 

Now for using those wires for something inside the garage. You can&#8217;t just connect to them out in the driveway or yard or where you are showing them cut. The fact they are crazy colors and not done to code would be enough for me to find the other end of them and disconnect them and run new power to were you need it all to code. 

You need a plan.


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## PromethusBound (Jun 16, 2017)

afjes_2016 said:


> Wait a second. Please something does not sound "kosher" the way you explain it.
> 
> First of all let's try and stay with proper terminology so we can all follow you properly during your investigation and at the same time give you some education (no disrespect here; just trying to keep you safe at the end).
> 
> ...



I appreciate the clarification, yes I am in the US. When testing the wires the only hot wire I found was black. When I tested Black w/ all other wires I was showing between 115-119 volts. When I tested Black & White I did see 119 but when testing black w/ all other wires it showed 115. I am not sure if its single of a double pole. I attached a photo if that helps. Its the 3rd from the bottom on the left.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 16, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> What afjes_2016 is saying. The wires you show are AC alternating current. They switch from + to &#8211;   , 60 times per second. There is no plus or minus that is for batteries that put out DC or direct current.
> 
> The term most used now are HOT for the power wire and neutral for the other leg of the power.
> 
> ...



The OP is using +&- in the generic sense and believes he has found a neutral conductor, in the white, and believes the yellow conductor is the grnd, and the other conductors in the conduit as the hots.

He is, however, short on specifics.

We all know there is a process of elimination, in both determining source, as well as identifying cause/cure for problems.

It's my belief that this dwelling uses metallic conduit and primarily individual conductors in the wiring, instead of 2 & 3 conductor romex. As evidenced in the OP's thred attic exhaust fan and that he has identified the conduit in this thred, as metal.


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## nealtw (Jun 16, 2017)

We want to see the picture of the breaker box with the cover off so we can see all the wires going in the conduit going to the garage. And what all those wires are attached to.

Can we assume that some machine that was used to knock down the garage also ran over the conduit, doing what ever damage it might. 
Some one removed a junction box, was that junction box in the garage, what is your plan on joining, if you have a junction box in the yard it will have to be accessible. 
The breaker for the garage or at least others near there are 20 amp, are all the wires 12 ga.?


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## Snoonyb (Jun 16, 2017)

As an expansion of "terminology", the removable cover which contains the breaker labeling, is called the "dead front panel."


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## Snoonyb (Jun 18, 2017)

PromethusBound said:


> I appreciate the clarification, yes I am in the US. When testing the wires the only hot wire I found was black. When I tested Black w/ all other wires I was showing between 115-119 volts. When I tested Black & White I did see 119 but when testing black w/ all other wires it showed 115. I am not sure if its single of a double pole. I attached a photo if that helps. Its the 3rd from the bottom on the left.



Could you provide a photo of all the breakers and take 1 step to the left, so that the breaker values are clear?

It would clear up the confusion displayed in posts 21 & 22 of your other thred; http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=23041&page=3

It's been about 17yrs. since I've worker on a Push-o-Matic service, but as I recall, the value of the breakers are embossed on both sides of the push lever.

However, if my recollection is incorrect, could you also provide a photo from the right side of the service, so those breaker values are clear?


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## spanishprofessor (Jul 16, 2017)

PromethusBound said:


> I checked the breaker inside the house but it only had a single red wire connected which doesn't match anything outside. Unfortunately, I can't tell where they ran the wires from w/o tearing up the ground and possibly asphalt.



Be very careful. That seems to be a job for an electrician. The cable in the picture does not look like it is properly protected. If you see that in the breaker box the only odd color wire is the red one and in the garage you have blue and yellow, then somewhere between the house and the garage, there is a junction box or a secondary breaker box. I was working in a house identifying electric issues and discovered that there was a secondary breaker box hidden behind drywall (completely covered). The only safe way to work with those cables is to turn off the main breaker. Since two of those cables show to be hot, you have 220 Volts, which can KILL you instantly.


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## hornetd (Jul 16, 2017)

Were there outside lights on the garage?  Could they be controlled from the house?  Were in the house is that switch located?

Blue was very often used as a switched conductor in single phase conduit work.  

-- 
Tommy, 50 years a sparky.

"This alternating Current stuff is just a fad.  It is much too dangerous for general use."  Thomas Alva Edison


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