# Is this a lousy granite installation?



## timbo59 (Jan 28, 2011)

As of last weekend we had the granite installed in our new kitchen, and a number of issues have come up. I know about cabinets, but as this is the first time Ive had granite installed I dont know if Im making too much of a fuss, or whether I have reason to feel aggrieved at the results.

To begin with, I went out of my way to tell the guy who came to do the measuring two specific points 

1) that the edge of granite lining up against the wall oven cabinet had to be perfectly in line with it as we didnt want to have any kind of facing on the woodwork (granite backsplash, tile, etc)

2) To be careful with his measurements because both walls that made up the L of the kitchen were not straight.

In short, I couldnt have gone more out of my way to highlight the fact that there were issues that could throw off the installation, and mess up our desire for a clean line along the oven cabinet. We even called the owner of the business to reinforce our point, and also asked him to try and make sure that the separate pieces matched up as closely as possible at the joins, because we were well aware that the granite we chose had some strong patterning that could pose problems lined up together. The guy admonished me over my concerns with Sir, we are professionals and do our job properly!

Well, the measurer came back a second day, and to ensure he got the measurements rights used some cardboard strips, which he glued together to create a template. Suitable impressed, I thought that everything was going to be okay. Then Saturday arrived and I sat there thinking What the hell are they doing as I watched the companys installers do their work.

Firstly, Id always been led to believe that a bead of silicone or some sort of adhesive was put along the top of the cabinets prior to installing the granite. These guys just sat the granite straight on top. (They also came close to causing some severe damage by trying to stand the edge of the heaviest piece, the corner, on the weakest points of both the sink cabinet and the cooktop cabinet  I had to hurriedly tell them not to do so in order to prevent them cracking the cabinets and possibly dropping the slab as well.)

When theyd finished installing the four pieces I couldnt believe it  after everything I had said, and after being told how professional they are, theyd still contrived to screw up one of the things I had asked  to make sure they measured the cut along the wall oven cabinet correctly so that there wouldnt be a gap. The granite touched the cabinet at the front, then gradually receded away towards the back, leaving an unsightly gap of about 3/16ths. The installers just looked at me like I was being an SOB when I asked why it was there after Id been assured it would be taken care of. They then filled it with tinted epoxy resin, and followed up by sticking a thick bead of silicone, half an inch wide, along the granite and cabinet edge. I hurriedly wiped the latter off before it had a chance to set, because I sure as hell didnt want the whole thing made to look even worse by an unsightly gob of silicone permanently on show. Ive also been told that silicone can stain granite?

After they left I took a close look at the job and just found their work to seemingly be a testament to sheer sloppiness and lack of professionalism. Theyd left so much silicone sticking out from the under mount sink that Id have had a half inch bead left showing permanently had I not gone around and tidied it up. The end piece at one end of the kitchen was so mismatched color-wise that it looked almost like it came from a different type of slab altogether  yet had they simply turned it around before making the cutout for the sink the all-important front edge would have made a slightly better match to the neighboring piece. There was also a noticeable unevenness, a bump of sorts, where the two pieces met, and it was quite noticeable from even across the kitchen. When I looked more closely I figured out the reason  the smaller slab to the left was about an 1/8th of an inch thinner than the other piece, so that while theyd been able to shim it level on top, they couldnt do anything about the bottom edge and had tried doctoring it up so as not to show. The back corner of the same piece, on the very end of the cabinets, was sticking out from the wall by ¼ and they had tried masking it yet again with another big gob of silicone following right round the contoured edge.

I also found out, with the use of a ruler, that theyd mislaid the whole thing and had obviously not heeded my warnings about the walls. Towards the corner of the L on one side the granite edge was sticking out from the base cabinet underneath by nearly two inches, yet 6 feet away the depth was the more standard 1 ½ inches. The mismatch in measurements on the other part of the L were almost the same, telling me that the whole thing should have been lined up slightly differently. Had they done so the gap along the oven cabinet would probably not have been an issue. I just sat there asking myself what the heck the templates had been for if theyd messed the situation up so much and ignored all my warnings?

The owner of the business came out and basically, in his glib, fast-talking fashion, tried claiming that there were no issues and tried throwing it back at us by claiming everything and anything he could think up that made it our fault. The mismatched piece was fine, my gripe about the gap along the cabinet was me splitting hairs (despite their assurances that they could do it), the bulge and difference in thickness at the join was also something he just laughed off, while the gap at the back corner was blamed on the very same walls I had instructed them to take heed of. The whole process got reduced to a joke when I pointed out a spot where his installers hadnt been bothered to clean up some of the epoxy on the oven cabinet, and he repeatedly kept claiming he couldnt see what I was talking about  I finally had to put a pencil up to it to point out what anyone could have seen from yards away.

So I leave it to you guys, as Im no expert on the matter. Do we have reason to feel aggrieved, or not? Its not like we expect perfection, but if I ask for something, receive repeated assurances that all will be well, only to see exactly what I had worried about come to fruition, I feel like I have reason to be pissed. Same with the color match. I didnt expect them to go cherry picking through slab after slab just to give me a perfect color match, but within the two slabs we set aside I would have expected someone to map and plan the cuts that would have given us the best match. As a friend of mine said when he looked at it, he considered that the the two pieces looked like they came from different types of granite.

Also look at the cutout for the sink  are there limits to what kind of radius cuts can be made to follow the contours of a sink, or could we have expected better with regard to what we got with ours?

Pictures can be found at Photobucket here Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket

PS  One solution proposed for the gap were not happy with along the oven cabinet is to sit a single piece of granite, 3 high, on the counter top against the cabinet, like a backsplash. I just thought it would look weird having a single piece there without a matching backsplash going right round the rest of the counter. We didnt want a granite edge along the back, which is why we were so specific about wanting a clean edge along the oven cabinet. Any thoughts on the point?


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 28, 2011)

First off, welcome to House Repair Talk and sorry to hear of your install problems with your counter tops. Big question is have you paid them yet? Holding their money will give you leverage. The link you have posted to photo bucket doesn't work. You can attach pics here real easy, simply scroll down on the message page till you see manage attachments and you can upload from your computer.


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## timbo59 (Jan 28, 2011)

Oh, sorry about that. I'll attach them below.

Unfortunately we have paid in full, so it looks like we'll have to go through the court system to get the money back or have the situation resolved.

It's just our bad luck we happened to try this guy first up, as he's round the corner from where we live, and got caught out.


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## Daryl in Nanoose (Jan 28, 2011)

this is definitely not a acceptable install, I have never seen a color match so far off and the radius cut should of been a lot closer to the radius of the sink. Way to much gap, they simply did not pay attention to detail. The problem is right now there are so many company's doing Granite that think they know what there doing. I sincerely hope you come out on top during this. 
Did you try a stop payment on the cheque?


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## timbo59 (Jan 28, 2011)

Hi again,
            Yeah, we did, but as luck would have it we were a day late trying stop payment.

Our problem was that we just didn't know for sure if we were right in our grievances or being overly fussy - like I said, this is our first time round with granite. We try to be fair and honest people, and handed over the final installment under pressure and to just get the guy out of our house - I was just getting really steamed at the behavior we were having to put up with. We were definitely not happy with the results, but the guy just kept hammering away that there are limits to how accurately you can cut stone, match it up, etc, etc - just wouldn't take a backward step and made it all seem as if we were being utter bastards over the matter.

I've since found out from various sources, both here on the net and from people we've had come around to take a look at the work, that we were perfectly justified in our concerns and that things like the color mismatch are certainly not the norm, as this guy suggested. Just wish we had been a little more sure of our position from the beginning.


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## Daryl in Nanoose (Jan 29, 2011)

It's to bad this had to happen, they really took the fun out of this project. I wish you all the best in getting this fixed up. Keep in touch we wold like to here about how your making out with this.


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## LHall (Jan 29, 2011)

Wow - an eye opener for me.  I'm getting ready to do my kitchen next month.  I'll now be super picky about getting references for the installers.   

Hope you can get some resolution on this.  Totally unacceptable.


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## granite-girl (Jan 29, 2011)

Oh my! That is definitely unacceptable work.  At the oven cabinet - is there an "ear" at the front edge ? It'd be the front frame & 3/4" th. & the box of the cabinets attaches to it about 1/4" in from the edge.  That could be causing your gap & where a backsplash would cover that up.  I know you didn't want one there, but it's either that or they notch out the granite around that.  Don't know if that's common practice, though.
The sink cut out could have been a little closer radius cut, but I know those are hard to match exactley & maybe the template from the sink was off a little.  You're walls being out of square or uneven... granite can't be cut uneven - it's a straight cut no matter what.  That's what backsplashes are for granite or tile, if there was that much of a gap - they should have explained to you & suggested a granite backsplash.
I'd say you have some grievances, but don't really know what you can do about it now.  
Good Luck - keep us informed.


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## granite-girl (Jan 29, 2011)

Oh - yeah that color match at the sink NO WAY!  And to do it right there at the sink front & center.  Come on man!


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## simonk (Jan 30, 2011)

That is definitely NOT acceptable work!  Do whatever you can to get your money back AND the job done correctly by someone who knows what the heck they're doing!  Good luck!


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## havasu (Jan 30, 2011)

The problem you had with the granite installation is the exact reason why I have hesistated having it installed in my house. If that was me, I'd be filing a small claims suit against the company. Just document everything in writing and take numerous pictures. Once the judge sees this horrible installation, I'm certain they will impose a judgement in your favor! Good luck, and keep us informed!


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## nealtw (Jan 31, 2011)

This company has a name and people in your area need to know it. Before you file papers with the courts, find out how many cases are filed allready. It would be better if you could join with others against him.
Out here if you win a court case the courts will take the money out of his bank if you have his bank account numbers, but by then they have closed that account and your on your own again. Ask lots of questions before you start, it can get worse.


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## Misty00 (Feb 10, 2011)

You have every right to be upset with the results and the treatment you received.  I am amazed at the color difference around the sink.  Just out of curiosity, did you research the BBB ratings on the company you chose before hiring them?


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## granite-girl (Feb 10, 2011)

Timbo - What's happening ?  Any developements on your granite ?


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## timbo59 (Feb 11, 2011)

Hi again,
            The latest, after three aborted attempts to get there (another story on its own!) was that we went out to their warehouse facility a few miles away where they do their cutting, in order to look at the slab they used, the promise being that they would re-cut the end piece to match the join at the sink. The offer is that we would pick the section to negate any criticism on the matchup.

The one thing it confirmed was that they definitely used a second slab to source the end section that caused the problem - you could see where they had taken out the 4.5' section. The dumb thing was that they could have negated the whole issue by going for another area that would have given a near perfect match. I took along some photographs of the counter at the join to make sure we could get the match we needed, and holding them up confirmed that there was an end that could work. Someone obviously just got lazy and couldn't be bothered to make it happen. They didn't have to cherry pick through the entire slab - nor would I have expected them to - to find a match at the expense of compromising the whole 10' slab. There was a section on one corner that would have worked fine, and that's the one we picked.

Only concern now is that they do the cut properly, eliminate the gap at the
back that they left before with the previous piece, and do a better job with the sink cutout - at least on the new half. As I said to them, I'd rather they erred on the side of making it fractionally too big and having to notch the drywall to make it fit, than under cut it again and leave the gap.

The overall job, and the attitude we've dealt with, still leaves a lot to be desired, but at this stage we'll be happy just to get the match up issue sorted out so that the counter at least looks okay.


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## oldognewtrick (Feb 11, 2011)

Glad to hear you're making progress, keep us updated.


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## Daryl in Nanoose (Feb 12, 2011)

nice to see you making some headway with those guys


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## granite-girl (Feb 12, 2011)

Havasu-  Timbo's job was obviously botched from the beginning it sounds like.  But not all  granite installations go this way.  People should definitely research their fabricators and there are plenty of good ones out there.  Usually you can view your slabs & be there when they lay out the template on your slabs.  But there's no reason to be worried about getting granite for those reasons.  Go for it ! It's a great work surface & more beautiful than anything man can make!


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## Marble_com (Feb 28, 2011)

That has to be the worst seam matching EVER! Totally unacceptable. You should be allowed to pick how you want the countertop cut from FROM the slab and the exact slab that is going to be used. These guys are amateurs and do not know what they are doing. If that was my granite, I would report them to the BBB and write reviews online on their ability as a fabricator. In addition, you must get your money back or they must redo this job correctly to your satisfaction. Also, the countertop was not scribed to the angle of the wall, something that a quality fabricator would be able to do.


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## handyguys (Mar 2, 2011)

The match between slabs is laughable. The sink cutout is unacceptable.

One tip - When i did my parents kitchen http://www.houserepairtalk.com/f45/kitchen-before-after-lots-pics-6667/ Each slab with individually selected by my parents. The installer used crayon to rough draw on where the cuts would be. They were able to move things around so mom could have certain parts of the granite in particular places (like sparkly flecks under the pendant lights and a cool looking swirl not lost by the sink cutout).

Also, I don't like seams at the sink. if the seam fails water can easily get in and rot out the cabinets. Sometimes its unavoidable and has to be done and is the easiest place to hide a seam. 

I DO think you are being picky about the gap-along-cabinet. I wouldn't have used epoxy there but instead a color matched caulk but it looks like a pretty small gap to me. All the overhangs should be consistent if the cabinets are installed correctly tho.


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## timbo59 (Mar 3, 2011)

Hi again folks,
                  Okay, here&#8217;s the update.

The granite installers returned last week and replaced the offending piece. This time I watched them closely, and got a firsthand taste of just how bad they really are. 

The replacement end piece was poorly measured, overlapped everywhere, and had a sink cut out almost as bad as before.  On a couple of occasions, when the two guys stepped out to get equipment, I took a closer look, and snapped some pictures of the granite and the joins &#8211; judge for yourself.  Is it me, or is the rough cut on the sink join just plain bad, or standard fare with granite?  And note the join at the front prior to the copious filling and grinding that took place.

The heart stopping moment came after they&#8217;d ladled a ton of epoxy filler into the front join, let it dry, then began to grind everything down. Me, I would have taped some sort of protection over the drawer fronts on the sink to ensure a slip didn&#8217;t damage them.  Not these guys. Only after they left did I realize that both drawers had been scraped during their work. So not only did they do a lousy install, but they also damaged the cabinets. And one had to really watch this guy in action to see just how much they make up for the inaccuracy and poor cuts by grinding the hell out of the differences and using copious amounts of the tinted filler to mask the results and gaps. If you look where the jagged back join was, you can see how they ground the underside to take away the some of the remaining roughness that the filler didn&#8217;t mask.

In addition, they short changed us on the length of the replacement piece, which I didn&#8217;t notice until after they left. Instead of the usual one and a half inch overhang, like we had with the previous piece, they left us with only a half inch overhang. It&#8217;s going to affect the backsplash, because if you note the pencil mark on the wall in the picture, it runs down directly from the wall cabinet above. If I want to run the backsplash down from the end of the wall cabinet, I&#8217;m going to have to allow for the curvature of the granite edge. That or I&#8217;m going to have to take the backsplash back half an inch or so. I just kept looking at it and thinking what the hell, did an extra inch of granite really mean that much to them?

They also reneged on their agreement to give me a matching 3" strip of granite to put up against the wall oven cabinet to cover the epoxy-filled gap they&#8217;d left.

Finally,  having wasted a month of my time, putting us through all this crap, and knowing full well that he&#8217;d left scrape marks on the cabinet drawers, the guy in charge presented me with a piece of paper to sign, signifying that I considered their work satisfactory.  He was pissed when I declined.

I also discovered they&#8217;d messed up elsewhere after they&#8217;d gone. As we weren&#8217;t sure which tap we were going to use I&#8217;d asked them to drill a single hole until we knew for sure which way we were going to go, though it was likely that we&#8217;d need at least one more for a soap dispenser to the right of the tap. &#8216;Sure&#8217; they said. After they left I bought the bit myself to do the work, not trusting in their handiwork anymore, and guess what? As I finished drilling through the granite the hole cutter started scraping like crazy and shaking the drill. The next minute I heard a clattering in the sink base cabinet. They&#8217;d gone and put a mount for the sink directly where I said we&#8217;d need the hole!

So I ask everyone, especially those who are in the profession - was the second coming satisfactory in your eyes? I&#8217;m a wood worker, not an expert with stone, but if I applied myself as sloppily to working with wood as these guys work granite, I&#8217;d be ashamed of myself. It&#8217;s like the epoxy filler they use so copiously &#8211; if I ladled wood putty out to fill in similar gaps in my wood workmanship it would look like a joke.  Is granite that hard to work with accurately or cut smoothly? If so, fair enough.

As far as my wife and I are concerned, this is about as good as it&#8217;s going to be. We weren&#8217;t 100% happy with the piece we chose, but it was about as good as it was going to get &#8211; the color matchup at the front is much better, but the back still shows a difference &#8211; yet we couldn&#8217;t have done better with the choices left. The only other option would have been to insist on completely new granite, and we would have felt like SOB&#8217;s doing that. They could have done better with the front join though, if they&#8217;d been bothered to make the effort. If you look at the picture before the filler was used, you can see why it posed a problem.

So see what you think.

As ever, thanks for the support.

Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket

PS - To the person who mentioned the edge against the cabinet. You really had to see the gap before they filled it in - it was bad, nearly 1/4 of an inch towards the back. And I'd specifically asked them to do it accurately, and they'd said 'no problem'. Plus they left epoxy on the cabinet as well, which I couldn't get off once I'd discovered it.


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## oldognewtrick (Mar 3, 2011)

Well, I really hoped you would have a better outcome once they returned. I don't think these folks are true granite craftsman and are obviously out of the league in workmanship. This is not how every job turns out.


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## WoodlandConstruction (Mar 5, 2011)

In hindsite you should have stopped them when you saw the color difference. the job is totally inacceptable. If they will not agree to replace it, file a suit asap.


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## WoodlandConstruction (Mar 5, 2011)

I would'nt bother talking to them again. Just bring them to court. Go to a reputable granite shop and get an estimate to replace it. Also get an estimate from a cabinet shop to repair the damage. You can also put their insurance company on notice.


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## DrHicks (Apr 16, 2011)

timbo59 said:


> Oh, sorry about that. I'll attach them below.
> 
> Unfortunately we have paid in full, so it looks like we'll have to go through the court system to get the money back or have the situation resolved.
> 
> It's just our bad luck we happened to try this guy first up, as he's round the corner from where we live, and got caught out.



Holy cow, that's really bad!  

I can see some variance on the ends.  But white caulk to fill the gap?  

Mostly though, that sink doesn't even look like it belongs there.


Good luck!


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## IndyRyan (Apr 17, 2011)

WoodlandConstruction said:


> I would'nt bother talking to them again. Just bring them to court. Go to a reputable granite shop and get an estimate to replace it. Also get an estimate from a cabinet shop to repair the damage. You can also put their insurance company on notice.



Absolutely.  Take them to court ASAP.  They absolutely should have to pay to have a professional replacement installed.


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## crackur (Apr 19, 2011)

horrible....


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## countertopinsider (May 21, 2011)

This is a HORRIBLE Install and fabrication. There should be now way this job even made it to your house. The color match at the seam should have tipped them off during fabrication. I would say that a 1/8 gap to the panel is acceptable but anything greater to that should  be replaced. As far as the sink goes, I have overhung sinks but most the time I leave a reveal on the top just behind the radius of the sink. I leave it to the customer on how they want it to look. It looks like your sink has both going on and in the countertoo world that should not fly. 

If this was my kitchen I would demand my money back and try to find another fabricator.


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## CountertopSolutions (May 27, 2011)

I feel so badly for you, but I think you have enough evidence to get your money back. They were using cardboard for their templates? Every one else I know uses coroplast or wood strips. I've been in the business for more than ten years and worked in California, Nevada, Utah and Florida and this is one of the worst fab/install jobs I've seen. 

www.CountertopSolutionsFL.com


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## mycountertoprepair (Jul 12, 2011)

Just my two sense here. This is my line of business and I believe there were really Three maybe Four separate problems here. 
They are as follows:

1. As far as I know, there is no real acceptable gap tolerance at a cabinet panel. 3/16th is a huge gap here. This should not be tolerated period... I would say 1/16th max. with a colored caulk fill should be acceptable. Translucent caulk would most likely work here too.


2. The color match at your seam is just horrible. However, Most counter top companies won't pay the cash for a second slab. My shop most likely would but most won't. I'm not taking their side but offering the mind set of the shop owner. You have to figure the contractor's slab cost alone is at least half of your total bill and paying for a new slab is like them doing your job for free and then pay their guys to fabricate it and put it in. They should have at least given you the option of purchasing another color match slab.
With that said the match is horrible and if they were in any way reputable, they would have made you wait until a new slab came in and matched it properly. 

3. The person who came to template had to make a second trip for templating? Red flag #1. This same person brought "cardboard strips" as his templating material? Red Flag#2. (Granite saws use water and H2O and cardboard just don't mix) This could have been what threw off your cab. panel... 


4. This one may upset you. 
One of the hardest things to cope with in my job is the know it all customer. Hear me out.
These are the ones standing over your shoulder telling you what they read from some  internet site on how your job should be done. Then firing off so many pin point area's that have to be perfect that we get overwhelmed by it all. The fact is (well at least I hope it's a fact) we (installers) all want to do that perfect job. We all know that these tops need to be tight at the cabinet panels and gaps at tiled walls should be under 3/8th. Take my advise do not pretend to know more about their job then they do. It only pisses us off. Let em do their job and this is important: Tell them all your overhang requirements Bar area, Island etc., any special angles or radius. Tell them to leave the templates in place, Then walk away until they say they are done. This avoids them being distracted from what they are doing to answer your questions. You really don't want them to forget where they were. When done is the time for you to examine the templates. Make sure their interpretation is the same as yours and now ask all the ?'s and point out any issues you may have.. 
My point here is just let em do their job...

With that being said the overall job looked horrible and if I did that I would most likely lose alot of sleep over it. You should have really told em to take it back even before they put the glue in the seam. once it's in, it's yours...


Possible fixes
                                                   Sink

 Check the front of the sink and see if the counter overhangs more here then in the back. It may just be a bad installation and a quick fix.

                                                   Wall gap

Since they didn't glue it down you may still be able to do this. Take a razor knife and carefully cut the drywall at the top of the counter top then again at the top of the cabinet. Pull out the sheet rock and slide the counter into the wall.

                                                    Seam
                           I can't help ya here. No quick fixes...



My site is new and I am still working on it so content is very limited but I have a few articles in there that may be helpful in this regard. 

Peace 
           Mark


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## rackit (Jul 29, 2011)

This is what caught my attention:
" The guy admonished me over my concerns with Sir, we are professionals and do our job properly! "
It is at this point I like to say "Thank You" I will be in touch, close the door and find someone else who shows pictures and testominals. Friends references are nice but seems like what works for us does not work for others.
As with most trades a big computer run machine is impressive but its the tradesman doing the work. 
After years or research and design by my wife what started as a kitchen remodel took on a life of its own. I had a lot of credit at a local granite shop for making parts for them for years. She shopped all the yards to find not 1 but 2  perfect  pieces. After many delays they finally installed the counters on a Friday. When I came home I found my wife in tears about the counters.
Short version They had sold one of her slabs and had to replace it this  accounted for the delays, The replacment had been repaired with epoxy. It may have looked good in the shop but in place when you came in the front door you looked at the counter with a sun light behind it showed a big hazy spot two feet across. They repaired a defect with epoxy and polished it that made the area shiney like the rest of the rock but all around the patch did not polish up and lef a big hazy ring all around the patch.
They stood behind there work and replaced the bad piece but it points out the importance of your vigalance and the craftsman doing the work.


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