# A Vitamin-C Story



## Eddie_T (Jan 12, 2022)

Before the days of cell phones I was sitting in a clinic while my wife was getting a chelation drip. A doctor who was head of a testing lab associated with the clinic was getting a Vitamin-C drip. He told of a conference he attended in MI and afterwards was driving up the peninsula to spend Thanksgiving with family.

As he drove he felt cold or flu symptoms and started taking Vitamin-C  capsules at the recommended regimen of 500 mg every 30 minutes until bowel tolerance is reached. He said he had not reached bowel tolerance by the time he reached his destination. When he arrived there was a message for him to call one of the doctors from the conference. He was told that one of the doctors sitting at his table had died of legionnaires disease.  He asked "how he would know if he had it" and the reply was you "would be dead".


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## Guzzle (Jan 12, 2022)

FWIW, Wikipedia views this therapy
"with an attitude or look of suspicion or disapproval"


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## Eddie_T (Jan 12, 2022)

Yup, but FWIW I don't experience the common cold.


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## Guzzle (Jan 12, 2022)

Anecdotal evidence, availability heuristic.

It may help some conditions & make others worse, in which case each person should decide for him/her self, assuming the likelihoods of each are known.

Me do it?  No.


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## Eddie_T (Jan 12, 2022)

Do you experience colds? When I told my wife's internist how I avoided colds and regulated my BP he laughed. I thought at me but he came back with a huge book entitled Alternative Medicine for me to peruse. He opined try it if works fine, if not move on.


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## Guzzle (Jan 12, 2022)

I hardly ever get sick, so I'm biased.  
My wife is into alternative stuff but also has some other docs.  I hope the alt stuff doesn't harm her but I let her docs advise her.


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## Spicoli43 (Jan 13, 2022)

Guzzle said:


> FWIW, Wikipedia views this therapy
> "with an attitude or look of suspicion or disapproval"



FWIW, Wikipedia is absolutely worthless unless you agree with their world view 100% of the time. They aren't "Independent".


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## Guzzle (Jan 13, 2022)

Spicoli43 said:


> FWIW, Wikipedia is absolutely worthless unless you agree with their world view 100% of the time. They aren't "Independent".


I don't know how much credibility to give to Wikipedia. In principle, over time, it may zero in on some truth.

The www is constantly mutating.  Following the money, I guess.

My paper dictionary & my Encyclopedia Brittanica are my main sources. 
The Brits have biases but almost certainly they're not the same as in "the land of the free & the home of the brave."

In one of her several books, Ms. Vos Savant said the best info source is books & the worst is radio/tv.  The www wasn't yet prominent when she wrote this but I think it's below radio/tv.


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## Spicoli43 (Jan 13, 2022)

Wikipedia is Far Left and against natural medicine, as they are bought and influenced by Pharma, which is true of all major media, Left or Right.









						Liberal Bias of Wikipedia Called Out in 5 Studies
					

Left-wing media bias has taken over once-neutral Wikipedia, just as co-founder Larry Sanger lamented earlier this year, according to five studies reviewing the content of the online encyclopedia....




					www.newsmax.com


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## Guzzle (Jan 13, 2022)

Then what are we to do?





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						Truth - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				








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						Ideological bias on Wikipedia - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Spicoli43 (Jan 13, 2022)

Well, I completely ignore Wikipedia. They Cherry pick everything, and since the subject is Vitamin C...

"There is no effect of taking vitamin C in doses up to 8 grams per day after a cold has already begun."...  Yeah there is, for me, 4.5 grams, or a TSP of Ascorbic Acid, kills off any hint of a cold, did it as recently as this week. They formed their opinion on a few cases or people reporting no effect, if they didn't completely fabricate the entire article.





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						Vitamin C and the common cold - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Guzzle (Jan 13, 2022)

After skim-reading these massive articles, I think I don't know what the truth is.
But I sure know what BS is. 


“When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it.”

How biased is Wiki, 1% to 99%, in some direction? 
Are they biased in *more than one direction at the same time* so they are never "neutral"?

Now we're getting somewhere.


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## Eddie_T (Jan 13, 2022)

I usually go to NCBI to see what they say but in the end go with what works for me as that's what's relevant. I noticed with respect to Vitamin-C and the common cold the cited NCBI studies didn't use the proper dosage which makes me suspicious.


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## Guzzle (Jan 13, 2022)

As long as you don't eventually come down with some awful illness that the plaintiff's attorneys of the future will be talking about on your TV .

BTW, IIRC, these types of lawyers are looked down upon by other lawyers.


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## Eddie_T (Jan 13, 2022)

I just use my IQ to separate fact from fiction. One can't paint either side with a broad brush. Anecdotal is at times brandished as a weapon however sometimes anecdotal has a larger sample than trials. Years ago I heard that coconut oil guarded against dementia now the MSM is touting olive oil. Be wary and well read.

My BP control with hawthorn berry was somewhat of a blind trial. Someone who had just had the roto rooter procedure performed on one carotid artery and the other was a candidate was asked if he had started taking any medications. He answered just a hawthorn berry supplement. His doctor said keep on taking it. My thought was it can't hurt so I started taking it. Quite some time later I found that my BP was that of a teen so I reviewed my supplement intake to see what might have affected BP finding it to be hawthorn berry. A couple of times over the decades  I have adjusted the dosage upward as needed.

Then there's Dr. Smith, did he beast legionnaires disease or was it a fluke?


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## Guzzle (Jan 13, 2022)

If an info source A tells me not to listen to info source B then I no longer listen to info source A.

BTW, don't read posts other than mine!  Seriously, I have to get a day job. . .


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## Guzzle (Jan 13, 2022)

https://lib.calpoly.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Evaluating-Credibility-Fall-2017.pdf


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## Eddie_T (Jan 13, 2022)

That tracks pretty well with my approach. I especially check for hidden agenda and  the money trail. But for me the bottom line always is does it work for me and are there any hidden risks?

I shy away from infomercials such as for Nopalea where they infer that their doctor discovered the benefits of the nopal cactus. If I decide to try it I would look for a more economical product with no TV presence.

I may bake some artisan bread and try dipping it in olive oil to see if it improves my short term memory. I can't envision taking it by the tbsp but if there's a way to enjoy its intake (salads, subs, bread) maybe it's worth a try. NASA recommended mixing butter and olive oil 50/50 for a bread spread.


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## Guzzle (Jan 13, 2022)

Well, I guess you have it under control, but watch out for the placebo effect.

My memory used to be taken care of automatically but now I do tricks to compensate for short time memory lapses.  
I ask myself, Where did I put X? and I wait for a non-verbal answer.  More & more it works.  Think of this problem as a clever adversary to be outwitted.

Good luck.


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## Spicoli43 (Jan 13, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> I may bake some artisan bread and try dipping it in olive oil to see if it improves my short term memory. I can't envision taking it by the tbsp but if there's a way to enjoy its intake (salads, subs, bread) maybe it's worth a try. NASA recommended mixing butter and olive oil 50/50 for a bread spread.



Well, you take vitamins, right? I take my vitamins with a shot of EV Olive Oil because of the fat soluble need, and because I like the taste.


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## Snoonyb (Jan 13, 2022)

Hawthorn berry, interesting.

My weigh-in; I haven't had a cold in 18yrs, and even when I had, and was working, I didn't take any time off, because I was responsible to debtors, and when I had asked, comedically so, for a couple days relief, the uproars of laughter were evident.

So, I've never been vaxed for anything other than tetnus(sp) since 1969, and don't intend to change now.

"O"+, vit C and D daily regiment.


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## Eddie_T (Jan 13, 2022)

Placebo effect is not limited to supplements.


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## Guzzle (Jan 14, 2022)

"there is now evidence that placebos can have effects even when the patient is aware that the treatment is a placebo."

I thought I knew stuff.  Now I think I know nothing.  Gotta' read up on this one.


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## Spicoli43 (Jan 14, 2022)

Guzzle said:


> "there is now evidence that placebos can have effects even when the patient is aware that the treatment is a placebo."
> 
> I thought I knew stuff.  Now I think I know nothing.  Gotta' read up on this one.



The mind controls the body. Wax on Wax off, Danielson.


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## Guzzle (Jan 14, 2022)

Spicoli43 said:


> Wax on Wax off


The only points I ever got in martial arts contests was by punching!


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## Eddie_T (Jan 14, 2022)

It's interesting that the mantra against supplements is that they are not regulated by the gov. You can find out a lot about supplements and side effects (if any by) going to NCBI or webmd. I tell people to look up the side effects of their beta blocker and compare them to my hawthorn berry.


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## BuzzLOL (Jan 14, 2022)

Spicoli43 said:


> FWIW, Wikipedia is absolutely worthless unless you agree with their world view 100% of the time. They aren't "Independent".


99% of info in Wiki is prolly OK... but when you get into addictions/politics/perversions/'woke', it can go whacky... there's also Conservapedia online...


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## BuzzLOL (Jan 14, 2022)

Guzzle said:


> "there is now evidence that placebos can have effects even when the patient is aware that the treatment is a placebo."


It's been known forever that fake sugar pills can make a person feel better if they THINK the pills should be making them feel better... religions are known to have the same effect in some people...


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## BuzzLOL (Jan 14, 2022)

Guzzle said:


> I don't know how much credibility to give to Wikipedia. In principle, over time, it may zero in on some truth.
> 
> The www is constantly mutating.  Following the money, I guess.
> 
> My paper dictionary & my Encyclopedia Brittanica are my main sources.


Your Encyclopedia Britannica prolly has about 26 volumes... Wikipedia would need over a million volumes for all the info in it... and much of it is updated daily... someone well known dies and it's usually in there that day or the next day... etc...


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## Guzzle (Jan 14, 2022)

I would imagine by now that the FDA has gotten bribes & threats to get approval for many elixirs.


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## billshack (Jan 14, 2022)

the truth , Pauling came out with his book _Vitamin C and the Common Cold_ '
Now *Linus Carl Pauling* was a very good scientist , but he went way to far and started coming out with all sort of false claims. yes vitamin c in very good for you in fact if you do not get enough you will suffer heath deterioration. 
How Linus Pauling duped America into believing vitamin C cures colds









						Linus Pauling - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Eddie_T (Jan 14, 2022)

BuzzLOL said:


> It's been known forever that fake sugar pills can make a person feel better if they THINK the pills should be making them feel better... religions are known to have the same effect in some people...


FWIW if you keep trying to bash religion you'll get the thread shut down!


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## Eddie_T (Jan 14, 2022)

billshack said:


> the truth , Pauling came out with his book _Vitamin C and the Common Cold_ '
> Now *Linus Carl Pauling* was a very good scientist , but he went way to far and started coming out with all sort of false claims. yes vitamin c in very good for you in fact if you do not get enough you will suffer heath deterioration.
> How Linus Pauling duped America into believing vitamin C cures colds
> 
> ...


Vitamin-C is not a cure-all and may not work for everyone but I can't even remember when I had my last common cold and I got hit a time or two every winter before I started taking it.


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## Guzzle (Jan 14, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> FWIW if you keep trying to bash religion you'll get the thread shut down!


That might be the strategy, to shut down your thread using the admins as proxies.


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 14, 2022)

Guzzle said:


> That might be the strategy, to shut down your thread using the admins as proxies.


It's perfectly acceptable to have civil discussions. Everyone can't agree on every or any subject. We encourage talk. What will get a thread shut down and people banned is disrespecting another member. Everyone agreed to the rules of the forum when they registered.




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## Eddie_T (Jan 15, 2022)

I just read an interesting article indicating that COVID-19 non-survivors have half the Vitamin-C plasma levels of survivors. Since it is cheap and has an excellent safety profile the article said that it might be administered even though larger studies have not been completed.


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## Eddie_T (Jan 22, 2022)

I baked bread and I'm finding that dipping it in olive oil is a bit messy. Artisan type bread is tough and crusty so I ended up with olive oil dripping down my chin. I am now tearing the bread into small chunks and using a tiny hors d'oeuvre fork to dip. I will get some minced garlic and maybe some fresh herbs to try. It's not bad with garlic salt and thyme though the flavors haven't infused much. One recipe for dipping oil said reduced chance of heart attack in just five weeks.

I may now have to worry about too much olive oil (and bread) instead of how to get 2 tbsp of oil down per day.


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## Guzzle (Jan 22, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> I just read an interesting article indicating that COVID-19 non-survivors have half the Vitamin-C plasma levels of survivors. Since it is cheap and has an excellent safety profile the article said that it might be administered even though larger studies have not been completed.


As long as it doesn't make things worse.
"Primum non nocere."


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## Spicoli43 (Jan 22, 2022)

Make sure it's legit Olive Oil.


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## Spicoli43 (Jan 22, 2022)

Guzzle said:


> As long as it doesn't make things worse.
> "Primum non nocere."



Great saying, but only about 2 percent of Allopathic Doctors follow it.


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## Eddie_T (Jan 22, 2022)

Interesting that four days after my last shopping venture I felt a slight temperature rise. I checked my temp several time finding the rise to be only 1°F and lasted only one day. Maybe the omicron was after me but my vitamin-C sent it packing.

Most of the current omicron data is anecdotal and they don't even realize it.


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## billshack (Jan 22, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> I baked bread and I'm finding that dipping it in olive oil is a bit messy. Artisan type bread is tough and crusty so I ended up with olive oil dripping down my chin. I am now tearing the bread into small chunks and using a tiny hors d'oeuvre fork to dip. I will get some minced garlic and maybe some fresh herbs to try. It's not bad with garlic salt and thyme though the flavors haven't infused much. One recipe for dipping oil said reduced chance of heart attack in just five weeks.
> 
> I may now have to worry about too much olive oil (and bread) instead of how to get 2 tbsp of oil down per day.


You should put a little balsamic vinegar in with the olive oil.  old Italian way .


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## Eddie_T (Jan 22, 2022)

@Spicoli43 What is your goto olive oil brand?


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## Spicoli43 (Jan 22, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> @Spicoli43 What is your goto olive oil brand?



Napa Valley Naturals... Here is a list of certified oils.









						64 Certified Pure and Authentic Olive Oils
					

Need help selecting an olive oil? Check out this list of olive oils certified for both purity and quality by the North American Olive Oil Association.




					www.aboutoliveoil.org


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## Guzzle (Jan 22, 2022)

*"Around two-thirds of respondents to a global survey rated doctors as trustworthy*, according to the Ipsos Global Trustworthiness Index 2021."

But there was the Tuskegee Experiment.

I don't know what to say about this.  
I do know antibiotics saved me from taking a week to die in great agony at pain level 8.
And I cannot repair myself.


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## Guzzle (Jan 23, 2022)

Apparently you have survived this long not trusting docs & I have survived this long trusting docs.
One conclusion may be that trust doesn't matter, but that seems unlikely.


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## Eddie_T (Jan 23, 2022)

I trust docs when I need them but with the careful use of supplements I seldom need them. Usually in any group I am the only one w/o even one prescription or a primary care doctor. But I use docs for surgery and would if I needed antibiotics beyond amoxicillin (fish mox).
And then there's Dr. Smith and the vitamin-C story.


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## Guzzle (Jan 23, 2022)

I'm surprised we're debating this with no one going Postal.  Good for us.

With my kid it's not possible, it's either win/lose/draw or forfeit.  All her tuition & child support down the drain. 

With her, the intelligence axis is 

"1. 
of or involving right angles; at right angles.
2. 
STATISTICS
(of variates) statistically independent."

from the dumb idea axis.


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## Eddie_T (Jan 23, 2022)

We are doing well!
I've had some good discussions in a home fellowship group. It had two doctors and a nurse (one of the doc's wife and a whiz on both pharmaceuticals and supplements). They were quite interested in my results in healing a stasis wound using wet bed dressings during the day (standard of care) and drying it with a hair dryer for the overnight dressing (scabs are God's way).
Others can do what works for them (or not) but I definitely know my methods work (for me). My son is on statins, I don't try to get him to drop them. I just give him supplements to help with leg edema which may be due to the statins reducing heart function and CoQ10 levels.


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## Eddie_T (Jan 23, 2022)

I heard a good spiel promoting bone broth on GMA3 of all places. The guest speaker was suggesting that it should be incorporated into any weight loss scheme and named its many nutrients. She said for something as simple and delicious as onion soup use bone broth instead of beef broth for the liquid.


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## Guzzle (Jan 23, 2022)

IIRC, leg edema can mean right side heart failure.
Many symptoms can be from one cause & vice versa. 
Med stuff is harder than engineering design & HVAC design.  More interface with these pesky humans!


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## Eddie_T (Jan 23, 2022)

An engineer friend of mine told me a little story regarding his first need for a doctor. He picked one out of the Detroit phone book solely because he had a familiar name. The name was the same as that of  a classmate who flunked out of engineering. When he showed up for his appointment it was the same guy. He said to the doc, "You were lousy at engineering how did you become a doctor?" The reply was, "You can become a doctor by memorization but that won't work for engineering." I find that to be true, most docs can't or won't think outside the box.

My wound care technique followed a logical path that the wound care specialists wouldn't try because it wasn't the standard of care they had been taught.


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## Guzzle (Jan 23, 2022)

Eddie_T said:


> "You can become a doctor by memorization but that won't work for engineering."


I hope he hasn't killed anyone yet.
Some doctors are finally getting on to Bayesian Reasoning & Evidence Based Medicine.  The computer does the Bayes' calcs for them, if they are not too proud to use it.

*Bayesian analysis in the diagnostic process
Abstract*
A diagnosis is made by a process in which the physician gathers evidence. The physician uses this evidence to put the patient in a class of patients with a disease. Bayes' theorem quantifies the effects of the evidence in increasing the probability that the patient has the disease. This article will discuss the potential of Bayesian analysis for medical diagnosis. Applications of Bayesian analysis to the diagnostic process could improve the efficiency of this process."

Could? I don't see how it can fail.


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## Eddie_T (Jan 23, 2022)

The problem I find with doctors is that they (unlike you) don't have time to play analysis games. Due to insurance requirements they have little face time with patients and  computer time is limited to the necessary virtual paperwork. In the case of wound care I was far ahead of the doc as I had unlimited time to research available articles on the subject of the latest high tech dressings and their applicability. The real world is far different than what you imagine with the theories you like to read and talk about.


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## Eddie_T (Jan 26, 2022)

Back to olive oil dipping. I have decided that I don't care so much for an herb loaded dip. I like for the taste of the bread to prevail so I am only adding a note of garlic salt to the oil.


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## 68bucks (Jan 27, 2022)

You should check out Fustini's. The sell olive oil and vinegar. They are a little expensive but they have a bunch of flavored (infused) oils and vinegars. We love the place. They have several locations in Michigan but you can order online too. If you can get to one you can sample all the different choices.


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