# Help with Kitchen Multiwire Break Circuit



## TommyCloud (May 8, 2016)

Okay, I admit this one has me a bit stumped.  We have a multiwire break circuit leading to the kitchen, using 12-3 w/ground.  Red hot attached to one 20A breaker, black hot to a neighboring 20A breaker (vertically stacked, so on different legs in the breaker box).  White neutral to the neutral bus, ground to the ground bus.

In the kitchen, red attached to a two-receptacle plug for dishwasher (under cabinet).  In the box behind that plug, neutral to breaker, neutral to this plug, and neutral to other terminal are tied together with wiring nut.  Same with ground. 

The neutral from that tie-together leads to GFI switch just above countertop (right above the other plug).  Black to breaker and this neutral are attached to LINE poles on the GFI.  Carrying wires attached to LOAD poles, taking current to other countertop outlets.  GFI is attached to ground.

This whole setup was working from the time it was wired almost two years ago.  It suddenly stopped the other day.  The only thing I changed was having to move the dishwasher outlet - unscrewing the mounting bracket and taking down the plywood it's attached under the cabinet to to get at something unrelated behind the wall.  No wiring was changed or detached; the plugs were just tilted, then gently pushed back in the outlet box and remounted.  

Since then, I still have full power to the DW plugs, and poles.  There is no power at the GFI, at least in the plugs.  If I touch the volt meter leads to the hot pole at the GFI and the ground, 120V.  Same with the neutral and the ground.  Hot and neutral together, or in the sockets, nothing.  I replaced the GFI switch with a new one, thinking that was the problem.  No change.  I also checked the power at the breakers and everything is good. 

I am kind of at a loss here.  The set-up is the same as every multiwire break circuit diagram I can find online.  There is obviously power at the GFI, since the hot/ground is completing a circuit.  I cut the GFI out of the loop and the problem replicated all the way around the countertop circuit:  power at the hot and ground, but no reading or minimal (like 3V) in the plugs and neutral poles. 

I want to say there is an issue with the neutral connectors.  I pulled out the wiring nut behind the DW outlet, stripped apart and twisted it back together.  The connection looks good.  

Any thoughts?


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## bud16415 (May 8, 2016)

If I read you right you measure 120 at the screws on the GFIC and not at the plug coming out. The load wires measure hot also but nothing at the load outlets but 120 at the load connections???? Did you try pluging something in the outlet like a mixer to see if you had power.


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## TommyCloud (May 8, 2016)

Bud, to clarify:  if I measure the LINE poles, I can get 120 by measuring the ground and the hot, or the ground and the neutral.  Nothing with hot and neutral poles.  No current on the LOAD poles.  Nothing in the sockets with the volt meter.  When I cut the GFI out, it was the same around the kitchen at every outlet:  120 using either the hot or neutral with the ground, but no current using hot and neutral, and nothing in the sockets.

I'll try to plug something in when I get home but reasonably sure there is no power in the sockets.


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## Snoonyb (May 8, 2016)

"In the kitchen, red attached to a two-receptacle plug for dishwasher (under cabinet). In the box behind that plug,* neutral to breaker, *neutral to this plug, and neutral to other terminal are tied together with wiring nut. Same with ground." 

*"neutral to breaker,"*

Which breaker?


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## Kabris (May 8, 2016)

Sounds like you have 120V traveling through your ground wire.


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## Kabris (May 8, 2016)

Or you lost a neutral.


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## Kabris (May 8, 2016)

Do you know how to test for continuity?


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## Kabris (May 8, 2016)

Test continuity between hot and neutral at GFCI with power OFF. If your meter rings out, your hot and neutral are tied together somewhere and you have no working neutral.


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## TommyCloud (May 8, 2016)

Snoonyb said:


> *"neutral to breaker,"*
> 
> Which breaker?



Sorry, neutral to the breaker box.  It's attached to the neutral bus.



Kabris said:


> Test continuity between hot and neutral at GFCI with power OFF. If your meter rings out, your hot and neutral are tied together somewhere and you have no working neutral.



Okay I will try this.  Thanks.


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## bud16415 (May 8, 2016)

:agree: with Kabris


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## Kabris (May 8, 2016)

Important to test continuity with the power OFF, you'll only get an accurate reading that way, and I've heard you can damage your meter if the power is ON, but I've already done it several times by accident.


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## TommyCloud (May 9, 2016)

Okay, I set my multimeter to Ohms and tested.  Testing on the GFI returned infinity no matter which poles I tested.

On the dishwasher outlet (which had power), there was no reading when I touched the red hot and neutral poles on the plug sides.  But when I touched the neutral and ground, the reading came back as zero, which means there was a closed circuit there, right?

Does this mean my ground and neutral are touching somewhere in the wiring?  Would that explain why the dishwasher outlet has power but the GFI doesn't?


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## nealtw (May 9, 2016)

This guy says ground where the white wire is , it is neutral. 
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXlVVgsp64c[/ame]


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## nealtw (May 9, 2016)

Two black wires nutted together at the dishwasher plug should be checked, Have you checked that both breakers are on, turn them both off and turn them on.


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## Kabris (May 9, 2016)

Check all connections at dishwasher, copper making contact with each other, no exposed copper in hot and neutral, tightness, etc. I believe your dishwasher is fine, but the out feed to your GFIs is bad there, I suspect in the neutral.


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## Kabris (May 9, 2016)

You should never have 120V between neutral and ground without hearing a boom before tripping a breaker.


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## nealtw (May 9, 2016)

Kabris said:


> You should never have 120V between neutral and ground without hearing a boom before tripping a breaker.



I thought maybe outlet wired backwards.


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## Kabris (May 9, 2016)

You probably have an open neutral.


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## nealtw (May 9, 2016)

Kabris said:


> You probably have an open neutral.



He has nothing at the gfi so that might be problem with the black


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## Kabris (May 9, 2016)

No Neal the polarity shouldn't make a difference. The fact that he has 120V from hot to ground and neutral to ground points to an open or misconnected neutral. He's not completing a circuit.


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## TommyCloud (May 11, 2016)

Okay guys, got it worked out.

Something in the wire between the dishwasher outlet and the GFI got damaged.  My son suggested running a fresh wire between the two.  We did and, Blammo!, full function again.  All I can figure is that I nicked the wiring somewhere (hit the neutral or the ground) putting the plywood panel back up.  I didn't think I was anywhere near the wiring but that has to be it.  So we tucked the fresh wire in the wall and capped off the old wire.

Thanks much, I really appreciate all the help.  It's always something simple and stupid, isn't it?


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## nealtw (May 11, 2016)

Great you got it fixed and thanks for the update.


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## bud16415 (May 11, 2016)

:beer: Good going. The simple stuff no one ever asks about. If you just read the forum you will think gremlins have taken over. 

Ya All come back now!


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