# Joints to use in a lintel for French doors



## Pavesa (Mar 1, 2016)

Hi

I have a project to install some French doors on the rear south side of my house overlooking the back yard and I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions around my overall plan and also particularly on the kinds of joints I should use for the lumber. The house dates from about 1850 and is in a rural area and I guess in those days the back yard was just a general dumping ground so there are just 3 very small windows overlooking it, one of which is in the pantry! So, I'm wanting to convert a room on the back of the house into a sunroom by installing some French doors giving a view over the back lawn. The width of the French doors is about 6' so there are obviously structural implications as studs are going to have to be removed and I need to install a lintel to give support.

It's a 1 1/2 storey timberframe house and very solidly and heavily built. I'm showing a drawing, Picture (1),of the layout of the wall where I want to put the French doors. At each end of the wall is a heavy 4"x6" post marked A and F. Next to F is a window and to the left of this are a series of 4"x2" (genuine inches btw) studs marked B - E. The current window is between stud E and the 4"x6" post F. The window and studs D and E need to be removed to make room for the French door. Studs D and E are only about 1/2" apart and may be loadbearing, supporting the middle section of the wall and the 2nd storey of the house but I have no way of knowing. I think I have to assume they are load bearing and I should run a lintel between the structural posts A and F as I think it would be dangerous to assume that B and C would be a strong enough to take the load. Any thoughts on the concept of my plan to this point would be very helpful. 

I've bought a very sturdy 4"x5" beam from a local architectural salvage firm to be a lintel across the 9' gap between A and F and I'm thinking about what kind of joints I should use to secure the lintel to the posts and to the studs. Picture (2) shows how I think the lintel (dotted lines) would fit on the wall.

I think steds A & B have fairly straightforward cross lap joints onto the lintel as shown in Picture (3).

Studs D and E need to rest securely in the lintel and Picture (4) shows how I see that working. In all cases, I'd secure the studs to the lintel either with screws or carriage bolts or maybe I should glue them?

My main uncertainty is about the joints to use to attach the ends of the lintel to the posts. The posts are obviously heavily loadbearing and the major support for the building so I'm very mindful of the need to maintain their strength. The other thing is that they're fixed in position so although a mortise and tenon joint is the obvious candidate, because the posts are fixed I wouldn't be able to move either of them to one side to insert the tenon into the mortise.

Picture (5) shows one possibility. I cut a notch 2 1/2" high and say 2" into the post and cut a corresponding tongue into the end of the lintel such that the lintel can rest in the notch in the post. Accuracy would be important (and a challenge!) to ensure that all of the notches aligned, including the notchs for the studs. I see the primary negative on this as being removing 1/3 of the 6" width of the post and weakening it.

I have some very old dense lumber from an old barn and another possibility for attaching the lintel to the posts would be bolt support pieces of this lumber to the side of the post to create a slot for the tongue of the lintel to fit in. This is shown in Picture (6). In this case, the only weakening of the post would be from having the 4 (say) bolts that fixed the support pieces. My guess is that this joint wouldn't be as strong as the cutting the notch in the post but it does avoid weakening it and it would probably be easier on accuracy as the lap joints could be cut and the tongue on the lintel could be cut and then the bolted supports could be positioned afterwards to support the tongue wherever it ends up against the posts.

I guess the other possibility would be some combination of Picture (5) and (6) cutting a notch but maybe only about (say) 3/4", ensuring the lintel was embedded in the post and supporting it with support pieces as described in Picture (6). This would minimize the weakening of the post.

I'd be grateful for any thoughts on my project. I've pulled drywall off to locate the stud and post positions so I know for sure where they are.

Thanks

Andrew


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## nealtw (Mar 1, 2016)

OK I got about half way thru your post.

Let,s start over. What you have is balloon framed house. They did all kinds of things when building these houses, some for good reason and some for convenience of material available.
You don't have to and probably shouldn't follow their lead with fancy joints and methods.
In newer housed we have benefit of platform framing to make it easier to understand and work on.
The studs in your house are full length, so they directly support the floor above and the roof.
So first you calculate the load from above, do the floor joists or ceiling joists or rafters land or attach to these studs.
Or is there a center support for the ridge beam in the attic landing directly above this planned cut out.

You would treat the corner post as a king stud.
The header for a single door is 5" longer than the door is wide, 2 inches to allow for the frame of the door and 3" to allow for a jack stud on each side to hold up the header.
For a double 2' 6" door or bigger you add 9" to the header  2' for the frame 6" for 2 jacks on each side and 1" for the strip of wood they put between the two doors.
In normal conditions with nothing more extreme than the floor ,and ceiling and rafters above the engineers would not call for anything more than a 2 ply 2x10 header up to about 8 ft long.
You may be able to calculate weights and loads and come up with something less but with out an engineer I would want to just use the double 2x10.


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## oldognewtrick (Mar 1, 2016)

Purchase a door "pan" to be installed under the door.


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## Pavesa (Mar 1, 2016)

Hi NealTW

thanks very much for the thoughts. I'll work through what you've drawn to my attention and get back!

Andrew


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## nealtw (Mar 2, 2016)

These are for a better understanding of balloon framing

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SiYkNaEPOo[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIiVOJpWuUY&ebc=ANyPxKq19ki1AKIoB3byfzQKkQ5KBKrWLopW2QMjiDbXMawV6oLukzpXgnHiQT0aTHphSfiaJyS144NI7eX1o1SY_aP5jkHFZw[/ame]


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## Snoonyb (Mar 2, 2016)

Pavesa said:


> Hi
> 
> I have a project to install some French doors on the rear south side of my house overlooking the back yard and I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions around my overall plan and also particularly on the kinds of joints I should use for the lumber. The house dates from about 1850 and is in a rural area and I guess in those days the back yard was just a general dumping ground so there are just 3 very small windows overlooking it, one of which is in the pantry! So, I'm wanting to convert a room on the back of the house into a sunroom by installing some French doors giving a view over the back lawn. The width of the French doors is about 6' so there are obviously structural implications as studs are going to have to be removed and I need to install a lintel to give support.
> 
> ...



Bafore you start this project you'll need to determine if the 2nd floor, floor joist actually bear on this wall, because if they do not, you are not off the hook, there is just another method.

If they do you can simply build a temporary wall about 18" in from the new door/wall, the full length over A & F.

If they are not then you'll need to find the distance from the new door/wall to the 2nd, 2nd floor, floor joist, and build a temp. wall there. 

At the 2nd floor you'll need to determine if the ceiling joist end over the wall above the door/wall and if they do you'll need to build another temp wall there.

If they do not there will either be a ceiling joist or a 2X nailing cleat nailed to the wall as a nailer for the ceiling. Set a 2X flat to the ceiling and brace back too a 2X above the wall below.

As for the new "lintel" which in framers terms is called a header.

The general rule for determining the size of a header is 1" in height for each lineal foot of length, double when supporting a 2nd floor. So you can compose your header from multiple pieces of lumber nailed together to achieve the 4" width.

I prefer dimensional one piece headers so I would p/u a 4X10 RO, (rough sawn), and install it between A & F.

The general rule for nailing headers to king studs is 1-16D for each inch of height, so 5 nails on each side.

Neal is correct, and opening 6' and over requires double trimmers on each side ok the opening.

I have a couple of questions;

Which direction and what size are the floor joist under the door/wall floor?

Is the new door going to be a store bought prehung unit, or are you composing it?


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## mako1 (Mar 2, 2016)

Andrew what is your location? This could have something to do with the correct answer.


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## bud16415 (Mar 2, 2016)

The OP called his house a timber framed house not a balloon framed house and his first drawings showed big posts at the corners and filled in with studs. He also showed a lot of joinery common in timber framing. He may well have a balloon framed house and is miss describing what he has or he might have timber framed / barn construction and in that case the studs he wants to remove would play no structural role. 

Before we give any specifics on something like this I think some photos need to be looked at.


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## nealtw (Mar 2, 2016)

That was my next question, that's why I dropped off the videos.
I have been trying to figure out what questions to ask without ripping the house apart.


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## nealtw (Mar 2, 2016)

mako1 said:


> Andrew what is your location? This could have something to do with the correct answer.



mako1: If you think I have gone off in the wrong direction, don't be bashful.


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## Pavesa (Mar 2, 2016)

Hi Snoonyb

thanks for the information and the videos links - very interesting and useful.

I checked and the joists (3"x8") run parallel to this wall so they aren't bearing on it. Post F (King stud) is the corner of the building so there's going to be a hefty beam running running perpendicular to the wall I'm working on to support the joists.

The door is a pre-hung unit to fit in. Under where the French door is going to be is a beam running along on top of a thick stone foundation wall. I'm attaching a photo - the beam is 7.5" x 7.5".


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## Pavesa (Mar 2, 2016)

I should have added that the joists under the floor (ie/ those in the basement ceiling) run parallel to the wall with the French doors.


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## nealtw (Mar 2, 2016)

Pavesa said:


> I should have added that the joists under the floor (ie/ those in the basement ceiling) run parallel to the wall with the French doors.



We have kind of moved on to figure out just what you have.
What ever it is the sill plate you showed in the last post could be found in any style
This picture has a little of both the gable end is timber framed and the side is more like balloon frame. 
So the question becomes, is there a beam at floor level or are there open bays past the floor.


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## mako1 (Mar 2, 2016)

That's why I asked where he was located and got no response .He may have a timber framed house or could be in another country with framing we are not familiar with. Judging from his OP I sure think that's a possibility.
 I would not be so quick to give him advice on a ballooned frame home assuming he's in the US.


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## nealtw (Mar 2, 2016)

mako1 said:


> That's why I asked where he was located and got no response .He may have a timber framed house or could be in another country with framing we are not familiar with. Judging from his OP I sure think that's a possibility.
> I would not be so quick to give him advice on a ballooned frame home assuming he's in the US.



Really old houses were timber framed in North America. Balloon framing started sometime after 1800


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## Pavesa (Mar 2, 2016)

Hi

well, it has that sill plate at the bottom of all the walls. I think there's a beam at floor level, certainly there's no open bays into the walls running down into the basement. I haven't had reason to tear the shingles off the outside much so what's behind them is a bit of an unknown.

I'm attaching a couple of photos which might give the experienced eye some clues. The one from the rear (with the satellite dish) gives a good view of where the French doors are going. They'll be on the sunny wall to the left of the satellite dish with the guttering pipe running down it. Post (king stud) F is just the left of the small window in the picture and there is an extension to the main building beyond that. Post A is where that wall meets the L out the back. There was no insulation in the L when we moved in and I was doing prep work up in the attic and occasionally a piece of plaster would drop down the inside of the wall and it seemed to fall right down to the bottom of the first floor wall although not actually into the basement. The other photo is from the front of the house.



I hope this helps!


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## nealtw (Mar 2, 2016)

That is a nice looking house.
I don't see a problem. 
When you open the wall for this job you will be able to tell if there is a beam holding up the floor or not. If that beam is right above the studs it would be timber framed and you could not do much damage by just cutting a hole for the new door.
If the floor joist is along side the studs or let into the studs you will have to support the roof while you work on the new header.

If you can get to that section of the attic and see what the top of that wall looks like and see if you can drop things into the basement, that would tell a story. and if it is open balloon framing you should plan on doing the fire stopping talked about in the videos.


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## nealtw (Mar 2, 2016)

If it is balloon framed you want to plan the header so it reaches far enough so the jack and king studs don't land above the basement window.


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## Pavesa (Mar 2, 2016)

Hi nealtw thanks for the help, it's really appreciated. I'll be opening up the wall a lot to get the beam and the French doors in so I'll give it a good examination. The videos says 1880's was in the middle of the balloon framing and this house is a bit earlier than that, it seems 1850-60. 

I think you're thinking the door will be on the wall with the satellite dish but it's actually going to be on the adjacent wall, the one with the inverted yellow bucket in front of it.

In fact, the attic is rather inaccessible now as it contains about 10" of blown-in insulation. I did a lot of prep up there beforehand and the top of the walls is rather difficult to see because it's 1 1/2 storey and the walls are at the bottom of the roof slope above the upstairs bedrooms.

The L was added later as there's a concrete conduit for a small stove pipe that leads through the wall from the main house into the upstairs of the L.


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## nealtw (Mar 2, 2016)

Pavesa said:


> Hi nealtw thanks for the help, it's really appreciated. I'll be opening up the wall a lot to get the beam and the French doors in so I'll give it a good examination. The videos says 1880's was in the middle of the balloon framing and this house is a bit earlier than that, it seems 1850-60.
> 
> I think you're thinking the door will be on the wall with the satellite dish but it's actually going to be on the adjacent wall, the one with the inverted yellow bucket in front of it.
> 
> ...



I did have the wrong wall and I figured getting to the top of the wall was tricky so we will just wait and see, I suspect that it will look much like the framing in the last photo I posted.


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## Pavesa (Mar 4, 2016)

Hi Mako1

I apologize profusely. The tread switched over to a new page before I noticed your response so I didn't see it!. I live in rural Nova Scotia.


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## Pavesa (Mar 4, 2016)

Hi bud16415 and Mako1

thanks very much for your attention to my question and I do apologize for not responding. Unfortunately the thread switched over to a new page and I missed your questions. I live in rural Nova Scotia - Annapolis Valley - a farming community with plenty of old barns here etc - a couple of examples below. I'm from the UK, but there does seem a long tradition of timber framing here.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...d=0ahUKEwjx4Kb-hafLAhUHkYMKHQC9Dx0QMwghKAQwBA

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...d=0ahUKEwjx4Kb-hafLAhUHkYMKHQC9Dx0QMwgsKA8wDw


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## nealtw (Mar 4, 2016)

You could rent an IR camera on a cold day.


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## nealtw (Mar 4, 2016)

Pavesa said:


> Hi Mako1
> 
> I apologize profusely. The tread switched over to a new page before I noticed your response so I didn't see it!. I live in rural Nova Scotia.



You can change somewhere here so you get 20 posts per page.

Will this be one door or 2 and what size are you going for? 

Mako1, Bud and Snoonyb

I think we can agree if this is timber framed, it will be pretty straight forward but if it is balloon framed,we should come up with a plan a couple plans so when Pavesa opens the wall he can get it back together in short order.

The floor joists just above are not landing here, I think I read that they are running the same direction as the wall.
If that is right the floor does not add much weight to the wall and maybe it even add strength as the one joist will be nailed across the studs or let into them.

I'm thinking of the trick used by house movers when they move a garage, they go around the inside with 2x12s lag bolted to the studs as temp beam to hold everything straight.
He could do that across the area anywhere above the cut out area, maybe on the inside even above the floor.

Ship lap isn't good at keeping things square how much do we worry about an angle brace that he will likely find in there?

Thoughts?


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## Pavesa (Mar 4, 2016)

Hi

thanks for coming back to me on this.

It's going to be a 2 door French door initially. It's a south facing wall so we want to see how warm it gets and we have an option on putting another window in further along the wall if it seems a good idea. The width is about 71 inches for the 2 doors.

It's still pretty cold here in Nova Scotia (10f last night). My plan is to get all the internal work done, including pulling off the drywall and the framing for the door and installing the header then when there's a good weekend hit the job of cutting through the outer wall (shingles) and putting the door in in a day or so.

I was interested in the idea of using a temp beam to hold everything straight. I've been toying with this idea myself. I have a nice old straight length of 4.5"x2" and I was thinking of attaching this to another piece length-wise to make an L section maybe with some triangular reinforcement to hold the L from collapsing. I'd then screw this to the studs and the posts from the outside of the wall to keep the studs supported by the corner posts while I'm installing the header.

Another thought to supplement this support is maybe only to cut out 2.5" from the studs D and E (the 2 to be removed - see picture 4 above) when making the notch for the header to fit in. As the studs are genuine 2"x4", this would leave 1.5" of wood in place in the stud leaving some support from the studs while I'm fitting the header. I'd then just cut the stud off flush with the bottom of the header when it's in place. The header would still be 2.5"x5" section inside the joint which I think would be plenty strong enough and there would still be 2.5"x2" of the stud sitting on top of the header which I think would be fine. Do you think this would work?

From what you're saying about timber framing though, it sounds like this may be completely unnecessary if there's no weight on the studs. I guess I'll find out when I pull the drywall off from the top of the wall.

You're right, the floor joists above don't land on this wall, they're parallel.


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## bud16415 (Mar 5, 2016)

Just so we are all on the same page I marked up your picture as to just where you want the new French door. The small addition to the left of the red line looks like an addition and is most likely stick framed. The main house may be timber or it may be balloon. Ether way a major load point is the long red line at the corner and I&#8217;m assuming you want your door to the right of the red line. 

I always try and do as much as I can before cutting thru the skin of the house and then when does get opened up it&#8217;s a quick job setting the door or window and the least amount of siding on an old place like this is disturbed. 

We can make all kinds of plans but till we see the framing it&#8217;s a lot of guessing. I say clean most of that wall off inside and see what you have and then we can figure out how to best brace it for the header. 

The fact that the floor joists run opposite to the rafters makes me think you are timber, balloon framing they would have anchored the joists into the studs and went on up to hold the rafters I would think. Ether way that wall is load bearing it has all the weight of the roof on it.


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## Pavesa (Mar 5, 2016)

Hi Bud,

Thanks for the posting and taking the time to think around my problem. Yes, that's exactly exactly where the French doors are to go. You,re also right about the extension, I think it dates from the 70's maybe. Depending on how warm it gets in there I might put another window in the wall to the left of the French doors, ie/ to the left of the vertical red line on your drawing.


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## bud16415 (Mar 5, 2016)

Pavesa said:


> Hi Bud,
> 
> Thanks for the posting and taking the time to think around my problem. Yes, that's exactly exactly where the French doors are to go. You,re also right about the extension, I think it dates from the 70's maybe. Depending on how warm it gets in there I might put another window in the wall to the left of the French doors, ie/ to the left of the vertical red line on your drawing.



Sounds great and you are welcome. It is far from a blueprint but sometimes a thumbnail sketch clears up a lot of what people are guessing at. The second window should be pretty straight forward in the single story little bump out. 

I have cut studs out from the inside with the clapboards still attached and then pried them off the siding from the inside. There are two reasons to add the temp beam on the inside. The main one is to support any load from above but also to hold the studs firm when you are cutting as to not loosen everything up above. I would highly recommend attaching it all together with heavy deck screws and the temp stuff goes together and comes apart without a lot of stress on other places you want to stay tight. 

The very last step I like to do around here is cut the siding and pop in the window or door and slap up the trim and the nosey neighbors never wonder whats up and when they ask about it later I say no that door was always there I cant believe you never noticed it before.


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## Pavesa (Mar 5, 2016)

OK, so I took the drywall off from above the window to see what I could find. I thought I'd not go up to the ceiling initially as the join with the wall is going to be taped and the ceiling is what we would call "artexed" in the UK - sort of scroll plastered - so if I can avoid smashing that up unnecessarily it would be a good thing.

Above the window, I found 3 2"x4" studs cut off and completely unsupported, see the photos below. In fact the left and middle one are being used as a support for a more recent horizontal piece of stud which was used as support for the drywalling. The whole thing looks pretty stable, no sign of any subsiding. Maybe this clinches that it isn't a balloon frame house?


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## bud16415 (Mar 5, 2016)

On the right hand side of the window when looking out should be the corner of the original house before the small addition. 

Did you remove enough to get a look at that post / studs in that corner?

If the studs they chopped off for the window are just hanging they figured they had a strong enough strength in that corner post and the studs to the left that the ledger up stairs would carry the rafter load. You are going to double that span so just because it worked for 3 studs it might not work as good for 6. There will be two ledgers one for the second floor to land on just like a joist / last joist attached to the studs and one at the rafters. Both are acting like a beam keeping the weight off that window area. 

Looks like some blown in insulation behind the lath. What did they mostly use in your country back then. Wouldn&#8217;t hurt to take a sample and have it checked out. It looks like the ground paper stuff we see here.


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## Pavesa (Mar 5, 2016)

Hi Bud

no I didn't get to look up there as I left the top part of the wall intact. I could carefully chip out the remaining couple of inches just to see what I can see.

Yes, there's a mixture of insulation - some glass fiber and some of the blown in paper-based material.

I finished tearing off most of the drywall and took some more photos of what's in here.

The first is the top left of the window. Stud D as expected runs up into the ceiling but stud E next to it that I thought also ran into the ceiling actually stops at about window height and a new stud was added to the right of it that stops at the same place. Stud E and the new one both go to the floor. A further new stud has been added to the left of the window that runs from floor and up into the ceiling. I noticed on the back of the some of the drywall that it says 1988 and 1989 so I guess that's when the new window was fitted. There isn't one in the corresponding position at the other end of the house.

The second photo is of the top right of the window. There's a header over the window made of 2 pieces of studding but rather surprisingly it doesn't actually go right across to attach to the corner post. Maybe the bottom right does. As you can see from the photos I posted a bit earlier, the header isn't attached to the sawn off studs either! I probed into the blown in insulation with my screwdriver all the way down the right side of the window and there seems to be no attachment there at all.

It is certainly possible that they figured there would be enough strength in the corner post and the left stud D to carry the load. Is another possible explanation that the corner posts A and F in my diagram have a beam running between them between floors and the studs' sole function is to be internal carcassing for the wall?


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## Pavesa (Mar 5, 2016)

Arghh, you can read my writing on the pictures.

First photo going left to right comments are..

Stud D

Stud E stops here

New Stud Stops here and like E goes to the floor

New stud added goes into ceiling


Second photo

Header above window not attached to corner post


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## bud16415 (Mar 5, 2016)

Well it&#8217;s to late to turn back now. 

Do you know the rough opening for your door? How much is left over in height to the plaster ceiling? 

If the weather is not to cold and spring is coming soon I would remove the lath and bag up the insulation and take it down to the studs to get a good picture of what you have. You could put up some plastic or a tarp as a wind break in between working on it. Sure looks like balloon framing and I would plan on as tall and thick of a header across the span as I could fit in. Take your sawzall if you have one and cut right down the corner at the ceiling there will be nothing to be saved leaving that little strip at the top of plaster. Your ceiling for sure try not to touch as that is hard to replace. I would add new studs in on each end to support the header  and also some to go up in sistered to ones that are there now. The trick is going to be how to best brace it till you get the header in place. If you have enough height you can do it inside if not you may have to work something outside. I&#8217;m hoping that the two ledgers above will be good enough till you get the header in. 

Once you have it opened more Neal and the other framers here will have some pointers. Just don&#8217;t cut any structure until you are sure what&#8217;s going on. Getting down to the studs is no worries seeing what you have.


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## bud16415 (Mar 5, 2016)

Yours looks a lot like mine I ripped out a couple years ago and I found between the old real 2x4s and the thickness of the lath and plaster in my case and drywall in yours. I was able to use 2x6s for new studs with just trimming them a little. Its easier to rip the replacement studs from 2x6 than it is to shim everything to come out flush on both sides, plus the extra strength cant hurt. 

The header above the window looks to be about 20 years old as you thought as does the window. I doubt they really figured anything out. I think they just made a hole and filled it back in. they used two 2x4 for the header but put them in flat. Just looks like a DIY job and it worked out ok as nothing has cracked or sagged we can tell.


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## Pavesa (Mar 5, 2016)

Hi Bud

thanks for the thoughts...

I don't think the work was a DIY job though. The previous owner lived here for 60 years so this was definitely one of his projects. Thing is, I've seen plenty of his home made stuff and they really are, well, sort of just about up to the job if you ignore the aesthetics... In this case, the drywalling is quite nicely finished off and held in with drywall screws and joins done nicely and it's generally a pretty tidy job. For sure, he employed someone to do this.


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## Pavesa (Mar 5, 2016)

Found some straw in the wall for insulation.. those were the days!


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## Pavesa (Mar 6, 2016)

Hi

well, made pretty good progress this weekend getting all the drywall from the inside and the lath removed and explosing what's inside.

I just exposed this, see photo.

Seems there's a prop (PS/ I call it a "prop" but I'm sure that's probably not the technical name!) at the bottom of the corner post of the building (Post F). It was actually cut off when they put the window in in 1989-1990 as the end shows a fresh cut. You can see the bottom of the prop almost butting up against the 2"x4" just to the right of the fiber glass insulation but it stops about 1/8" away and isn't actually attached - no nails, screws or anything. The strut to the right of the 2"x4" isn't attached to the prop, in fact that's a piece of the strut removed when the window was put in and reattached for support but it isn't attached to the prop. The prop is fairly lightly nailed to the middle strut you see and I would guess that some of the boards are nailed to the prop.

I really can't fathom why they cut this off the way they did; surely the 2"x4" could have been attached very securely to the prop and it could have been left for structural reasons.

Still, given it's been sawn off like this, I would guess it is now doing relatively little structurally and if it was done 25 years ago I guess that's given plenty of opportunity for stress testing and the building seems not to have moved. I would guess that there's another matching one on the other side of the post. Anyone have any thoughts on whether this can be removed?


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## Pavesa (Mar 6, 2016)

I am minded to add here that there are fairly substantial boards on the outside of the building - full 1" thick which will be providing some more support to the building and the plan is that these will be removed.

Also, thinking again about my idea that there's another prop the other side of the post, this is is likely incorrect as beyond the post is the stick framed extension. I think it's doubtful they would bother to put a prop the other side. If they thought strength was an issue, by far the easiest thing would have been to leave the existing prop in place rather than go to all the trouble to build a very robust frame the other side of the post to put in another prop there.


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## bud16415 (Mar 6, 2016)

In these old houses the sheathing was planks run back and forth like yours are. In new construction we don&#8217;t think of a sheet of plywood as being a diagonal support but they are as the one sheet has corner to corner strength. What they worried about was walls racking and they added those braces. You are right for 25 years without it the other members did the job of holding the house square. 

I wouldn&#8217;t remove any more of it than I had to and then secure the ends like you thought they should have. How far over is your rough opening going?

I would leave all the sheathing except what you remove for the opening and do that last after you have your new framing built and attached to the sheathing from the outside. Those boards add a lot to the structure. Around here sometimes they went on the outside and sometimes the inside. My old house had just wood siding on the outside and the sheathing wood was the inside walls at first until they got around to plaster in a few years. The house we are at now was built like yours. Save all that wood you cut out it will come in handy putting it back in someplace else.


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## Pavesa (Mar 6, 2016)

Hi Bud

The plan is/was to put the doors right up against the post. ie/ Where this prop is!


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## nealtw (Mar 6, 2016)

Let me catch up, I think I read all of it. 
Joist so you know, there is no header over that window, that junk is just filler.
A header is held up in Canada with what some call cripple  and others call a jack, In the USA, they use trimmers.
As your door is more than five feet wide, you need 2 under each end. If the post you speak of is the original corner of the building I would treat that as untouchable. It is not only supporting the corner but also what ever is holding up above what was cut away for the small addition.
So for a double 2' 6" door the header 69 inches long. It wants to be tight against the cut studs above.
Below the header we would like to have a sill  1 1/2  x  4 and still have 83" to the floor..

So ceiling height, height of drywall you want to leave. 
Is there a sill at the floor or do the studs go right past the floor.
Top of studs, do they go past the floor above or stop at the floor. Open a metal close hanger and poke up there and feel around.

Plan for deck or porch on the outside?
Plan for roof or shelter on the outside?

To deal with the angle brace that will be cut out, we could use new 2x4 and add plywood to the inside in the method we do for stress walls for earthquakes


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## nealtw (Mar 7, 2016)

What I forgot to mention is the the 69 inches is the min, you would run it long enough to butt into a full length original stud and the cripples would have to go all the way down to the sill plate in the basement.


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## bud16415 (Mar 7, 2016)

The big question for the pro&#8217;s is what is the best way to proceed with carrying the load during the stud removal until he gets the header in place. Is there now enough shown to make a call or should he remove more insulation. 

I would like to see an inside picture of the whole area from as far back as you can get.


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## nealtw (Mar 7, 2016)

bud16415 said:


> The big question for the pros is what is the best way to proceed with carrying the load during the stud removal until he gets the header in place. Is there now enough shown to make a call or should he remove more insulation.
> 
> I would like to see an inside picture of the whole area from as far back as you can get.



Still waiting to see if it is timber or balloon and I asked about the roof outside as the temp beam could be put there and left as part of the roof structure.
I still think the temp beam, if room doesn't allow for that I would put it upstairs.

Depending on heights he may have to work the header from the outside.

Yes more pictures.


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## Pavesa (Mar 7, 2016)

Hi Neal

thanks for the feedback.

I follow all you say I think. I haven't cleared everything out to see below floor level yet to see what everything's attached to down there and as I mentioned, I left the top part of the wall in place to avoid damaging the ceiling. I'll have to clear out down to the bottom of the wall anyway so I'll get on with that and I'll also carefully remove some drywall up to the ceiling on a section between a stud and post F so I can take a look what's up there. I'm a weekend warrior on this though, so it'll be the weekend before I get to it again..

I don't plan a deck or porch at this stage.

"To deal with the angle brace that will be cut out, we could use new 2x4 and add plywood to the inside in the method we do for stress walls for earthquakes"

Can you explain how this would be done?

I had a couple of "engineering" thoughts on this. One is to build a very substantial header between the posts and extend it maybe 5" beyond post F into the stick extension and then drop an angle brace down from that. The other is to build a very substantial header between the posts and build an angle brace to post A maybe it already has one that would do the job. Or do both! See pictures below..


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## bud16415 (Mar 7, 2016)

Does the inside spacing between C&F allow for the 69&#8221; Neal was talking about and also 6 inches for the double 2x on each side? So the question is between C&F is there 75&#8221; or more?


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## Pavesa (Mar 7, 2016)

Hi Bud

yes, the distance between C and F is 77.5"


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## Snoonyb (Mar 7, 2016)

Pavesa said:


> Hi Neal"To deal with the angle brace that will be cut out, we could use new 2x4 and add plywood to the inside in the method we do for stress walls for earthquakes"



I'm going to bore you with a little, "historical," clarification here.

The, "angle brace" and I believe you had refereed to as a prop, is a typical version in ballon framing, of the method employed to resist racking and when they occurred in long sections of walls, oppose each other. This style of bracing was replaced in platform framing by diagonal let-in braces which were let into the studs, sil and double top plates and occurred at a max. spacing of 20ft.



Pavesa said:


> Can you explain how this would be done?



I'd be very careful here and really think this through.

Properly employed and installed you should be able to attach to the sil or bottom plate and have a minimum width of 24".

I'd be concerned with the prospect of over stiffening a first floor section and not addressing the 2nd floor.

I had a couple of "engineering" thoughts on this. One is to build a very substantial header between the posts and extend it maybe 5" beyond post F into the stick extension and then drop an angle brace down from that. The other is to build a very substantial header between the posts and build an angle brace to post A maybe it already has one that would do the job. Or do both! See pictures below..[/QUOTE]

This probably would not be necessary unless you were going to attempt to engage the addition in the resistance.

Isn't this just peaches.


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## Pavesa (Mar 7, 2016)

As you saw from the photos, the wall outside of where I'm working is very accessible. 

I thought I could maybe have a temporary beam running along the outside of the wall attach to the two posts A and F and then securely attach the studs to that for support. Also I think I don't need to cut off studs D and E entirely. I could leave, say, 1.5" out of the 4" depth in place with a corresponding notch out of the header to give some support while I'm getting the header in place. Once the header is in place, I could just cut the studs off from below the header. The header btw is a 5"x4" solid beam salvaged from an old house that I bought locally.


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## Pavesa (Mar 7, 2016)

"This probably would not be necessary unless you were going to attempt to engage the addition in the resistance.

Isn't this just peaches."

Yes, the joy of discovery in old houses! I installed a bathroom upstairs and had to reconfigure the whole project because there was a beam where I planned to open a doorway!

My "engineering" ideas wouldn't put any load at all on the addition, it would all be carried on the substantial header beam I have.


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## nealtw (Mar 7, 2016)

Pavesa said:


> Hi Bud
> 
> yes, the distance between C and F is 77.5"





bud16415 said:


> Does the inside spacing between C&F allow for the 69 Neal was talking about and also 6 inches for the double 2x on each side? So the question is between C&F is there 75 or more?



Two old studs 69" apart including the cripples. If there is another stud that makes that work or we go to the 77.5".


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## nealtw (Mar 7, 2016)

Pavesa said:


> "This probably would not be necessary unless you were going to attempt to engage the addition in the resistance.
> 
> Isn't this just peaches."
> 
> ...


where did you find the beam in the upstairs?


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## nealtw (Mar 7, 2016)

Pavesa said:


> Hi Neal
> 
> thanks for the feedback.
> 
> ...



Somewhere there is a beam or a wall holding up the floor upstairs and you never want cut into anything you don't have to , stay within the 77.5 inches.

On houses that have ship lap or boards for sheeting under the siding all usually have angle braces, when we have cut into those the engineers or city inspectors will ask for that sheeting be replaced on each side of the cut out with plywood. As the outside section of the wall is less than eighty inches that would be no benefit. You could strip more drywall on the inside and after insulating just add plywood to the inside to make it the same thickness as the old wall.  But if the lean to addition at the side of this is sheeted with plywood or has an angle brace in it, non would be needed.
Get us the measurement to the drywall you left before you remove it. It is a good idea to leave it there if you can.


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## bud16415 (Mar 7, 2016)

I personally wouldn&#8217;t use the old 5x4 beam. I would opt for something wider and built from 2x stock with plywood between to make the header come out to the old stock dims. Likewise I would rip the trimmers from 2x6 stock to match the width of the old stock and long enough to go below the floor if needed until they were sitting solid. Go with C&F and add two trimmers to the inside of each and you would have a rough opening of 71.5. If that is too wide throw in another to get 70&#8221;. Get your header made up of 2x8 or 2x10 and then attach a 2x6 or greater all the way across the tops of everything A thru F 2 long deck screws into each stud and post. Now cut your studs off and pry them back in off the sheathing and then get your header in place. You may have to fill in the gap below the opening that the new door will sit on. the very last step I would take is go outside and screw into the new frame the sheathing and the siding. Then from the inside cut out the opening. 

I wouldn&#8217;t even worry about that lost angle brace that corner is now braced by the addition beside it as well.


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## nealtw (Mar 7, 2016)

On the out side near the soffet you have a white trim board, what exactly is that, Real wood nailed to sheeting or right to the studs if you can tell. What are the measurements of that, how many nails into each stud if you can see them?


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## nealtw (Mar 7, 2016)

Have you measured outside from the window over to the corner to make sure you are looking at the right studs on the inside.


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## Pavesa (Mar 7, 2016)

Thanks for the thought on those boards below the soffet Neil.

I took some measurements and there are 2 wooden boards face-to-face, each 1" thick x 16" high. They're original to the house. They're very heavily painted over obviously, and I couldn't see any nail marks. It is possible that the inner one was attached first and then the outer one nailed to it. I have some nice plated 6" screws I could put through both boards to make sure they're nicely attached to the studs and the posts?


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## nealtw (Mar 7, 2016)

I think if you do that a couple screws in each stud and posts as well as the upper floor joists is nailed to them if not let in. I think all that counts as the temp beam. Good to cut after that.
I would plan on pre drilling part of the way, that stuff will be hard, an impact driver will almost be a must.

The reason I asked about the deck outside is because of the window on the other wall you won't be able to drop it the required 6" for solid surface deck.
So you will want to make it out of some sort of slated deck over treated umber framing.

In order to do that and get a proper instullation for the door the ledger wants to be in place before the door goes in. We will talk about proper installation.

The window downstairs also stops you from building a free standing deck as well as digging one hole instead of 4.


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## Pavesa (Apr 21, 2016)

Hi All

been a while since I posted my questions on installing some French windows. First I should clear up that they're patio doors - seemed to have a brainstorm and mixed up patio and French doors!

The picture below is the final installation with the supporting woodwork exposed.

At the top is the old 4"x 5" beam I bought with the cut off studs sitting on top of it. On the right, the beam is attached to post F in the drawing I originally posted. There's an L at the back of the house which casts shade so I wanted the doors as far to the right as possible so the beam is attached with a really heavy duty old hinge made of 3/8" steel with a 1/2" diameter joining pin attached to post F. To the left of the doors the beam rests on one of the original 3"x4" (actual dimensions) studs removed from the wall which runs to the support beam at ground level and is screwed to stud C on my drawing. The beam then continues with another of the heavy duty hinges attaching to post A on the extreme left and there are really tight mortice joints attaching it to stud B and to stud C. Above the window, the beam is screwed to one of the lining boards of the house which is in one section for the full width of the doors and is 7/8" thick and about 12" high. This board is also screwed to the studs above the doors.

The original wall had a diagonal bracing piece at the bottom right of where the doors are, so I thought I should reproduce this somewhere in the construction and you can see this at the top left, bolted into post A, morticed into stud B and fitting tightly up against the top of stud C where it bolts to the underside of the beam.

I had quite a gap underneath the beam, so I decided to use it to add more structural support. You can see just above the top frame of the window there is a header which is one of the original 3"x4" studs I took out from the wall which is bolted through spacer pieces and shims (the new wood) into the beam. On the right the header rests on the supporting lumber of the door frame and is screwed into post F with 2 6" screws. On the left it rests on a piece of stud which is screwed (4 screws) to the side of the stud which is attached to stud C.

There was no movement at all in the wall when I cut out studs D and E after installing the beam. Also, as discussed earlier, I put 6" screws through the 16" exterior boards at the top of the wall through into the studs to give support after cutting off the studs and they're still there.

Thanks for all the advice, I really appreciate the thoughts as I've gone along..


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