# Purchased big project home, certain will need suggestions/advise/moral support too :)



## Floridagal (Dec 6, 2014)

We recently purchased a home was permitted as owner/builder construction. The home was going to be this couples dream home but as life changes so did their plans to finish the home we just purchased.  

Our history of DIY projects have been complete remodels of bathrooms, and kitchen, and flooring (wood & tile).  Husband is very handily, and is a licensed elevator contractor (new installation and complete tear downs/installing new). 

The home is a 2 story 2788 sq ft 4 bedrooms/3 bath concrete home. The home has metal roof, all windows and doors (except for front door), 2 central AC units, all duct work complete, rough plumbing/electric is complete, shower pans installed, all framework done. 

Brief list of what needs to be done (which I'm certain will grow) 
Insulation walls and ceiling 
Drywall
flooring
kitchen and bathroom cabinets, tile installation and fixtures 
installing front door 
finish staircase 
railings around approx 12 x 10 area that is open to 1st level 
light fixtures interior and exterior 
landscaping 
paint part of exterior/all interior 

Once we start the project after the 1st of the year, I'm sure we will have many questions, and maybe even a plead for HELP now and then&#8230;we are going to transfer the owner/builder permit into our name and the engineer has agreed to allow us to use existing plans filed with the building department. We will sub-contract out jobs that we know are too much for us to do or something we don't want to tackle (knowing our limits) and when to let the pros do what they do, and take on the projects that we know we can do, and feel confident about being able to complete. 

First question I have is, what is the average savings on labor when doing a lot of the work yourself?


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## beachguy005 (Dec 6, 2014)

I don't think you can get a true average savings because of all the variables. What's your time worth, how long will you take, how does the quality of your finished work compare to that of a hired pro, equipment and tools you have or will need. To say you can save 50% in labor wouldn't be accurate if it took you 3 times as long to finish plus calculate the tools you had to buy and any mistakes you made.
I've done a lot of work on my own and for me it was more of an issue getting it done when I wanted, learning the project and self satisfaction of doing the job...even if it wasn't perfect.
I also know that I've paid contractors for jobs done that I had to repair after they left and even one that almost killed me.


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## johnv713 (Dec 7, 2014)

If you know what you're doing I'd say at least 30%.  Got a quote 10k for my patio. Did it myself and saved about $6500 . Fix the house roof myself for about $200 but the original quote was $1200. Most of the stuff on list you shouldn't have much problem with, just a matter of how much time have you got. BOL!


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## frodo (Dec 7, 2014)

looks like your house is at the inspection stage for dry wall

questions>>>

have the inspections been done?
 you need, framing/insulation
                electrical
                plumbing/hvac. do not proceed with out these

also.  most residential permits are good for a year.  you might want to ck if the permit you have is 
 1 transferable
2  still valid

befors sheet rock,  using a 4' level,  check walls for bows,  ck door frames for plumb
 ck windows for plumb/square
has cable been run?   Dsl? smoke detectors?  alarms?  dryer vent?  door bell?  

is backing installed for cabinets?  towel bars?   TP holder?


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## Floridagal (Dec 7, 2014)

frodo said:


> looks like your house is at the inspection stage for dry wall
> 
> questions>>>
> _Frodo_
> ...



There is no drywall or backing for cabinets or any fixtures in yet in bathrooms or kitchen. Washer/dryer hookups are in, water heater system is ready to be installed. 

Checked all the permits, and pulled a history of all so that we have it at hand, in case we need to refer back to anything.  

Thank you for all your suggestions and questions. All is helpful!


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## Floridagal (Dec 7, 2014)

Frodo, 

I answered your questions following yours in the blue box, not sure why the last part wasn't under your questions as well. But thank you for all your helpful questions.


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## Floridagal (Dec 7, 2014)

johnv713 said:


> If you know what you're doing I'd say at least 30%.  Got a quote 10k for my patio. Did it myself and saved about $6500 . Fix the house roof myself for about $200 but the original quote was $1200. Most of the stuff on list you shouldn't have much problem with, just a matter of how much time have you got. BOL!




Johnv,

That's close to what we were thinking, we won't take on anything unless we are totally confident in being able to do it right.  We feel confident in installing flooring, cabinets, appliances, insulation, hanging drywall, railings, all bathroom vanity's, hooking up existing plumbing, fixtures, interior doors, ceiling fans, interior lighting in the ceiling, and exterior lighting.  There are a couple things that we will hire to have work done, such as staircase if it appears to be too difficult to finish, and drywall mudding/sanding for sure.  

Do you feel it is in the final stages of construction, or maybe 70% to 85% complete?


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## Floridagal (Dec 7, 2014)

Question regarding insulation&#8230;.Since this home has a metal roof, and the warm climate most of the year, what would be the best insulation for the ceiling? Ultimately we want something that will help the AC be more energy efficient especially in the summers.


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## slownsteady (Dec 7, 2014)

You haven't mentioned the approx location which may affect some of the answers you get. JohnV makes a good point, but remember the calculation will be different for each project  - more like Beachguy mentioned.

Keep in mind other optional projects that you will eventually want. For instance, if you're considering central vacuum, HDMI cables, wired internet, remote speakers, you'll want to add parts before drywall.

But above all, safety first. A railing around the open the open area sounds like a high priority, even if it's temporary.


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## Floridagal (Dec 7, 2014)

Slownsteady, 

It is down in the Florida Keys, the home has been completely wired for any system, the previous owner wanted everything done, actually we won't need all that he has it wired for but will keep the availability just in case.  I don't think a central vac is needed. If we were using carpet I'd consider but don't really see a point in it for us anyway. 

I agree with you 110% about the railing, I was kind of surprised the inspector didn't require a temporary right away.  Totally unsafe the way it is right now, so that will be the first thing we do. Our plans are to start after the 1st of Jan.  We have 4 day work weeks, and a reasonable amount of time to take off whenever necessary.


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## Floridagal (Dec 7, 2014)

Deleted post - duplicate


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## Floridagal (Dec 7, 2014)

We won't be getting building supplies in the Keys, we will get all from Miami or Ft. Lauderdale. Some supplies we've ordered and shipped to the house, which has saved a lot compared to the prices of the same to the Keys.


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## frodo (Dec 7, 2014)

I could be overstepping my welcome here.  but i have a word of advice about living in florida

NIX--GET RID of the carpet.  I lived in Orlando,  titusville,  and Christmas Fla.

sand gets in/on everything and is brutal on carpet.  its called sugar sand,  it filters thru the carpet to the mat...

with sand the way it is.  a central vac. system is not a bad idea.

also,  wire it for a generator.  where you are is pounded by hurricanes,  loose power a lot

tile  and wood floors. use throw rugs,    JMO   :2cents:  :beer:


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## beachguy005 (Dec 7, 2014)

Ahh...the Keys.  Your issue down there will be with the dreaded keys disease.  Nice place to live but hard to get much done.  I used to spend a lot of time with friends on Key Largo.  I'm over on the Gulf coast now.


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## Floridagal (Dec 7, 2014)

Beachguy, 

That's so true, we will try hard to not enjoy the time down there while working, and yes boating, etc, etc&#8230;it may take us the entire two years of the owner/builder permit&#8230;haha.  We love it down there, and just happened to come across this home.  The dreaded keys disease is partly why we will be doing a lot of the work ourselves, it's hard to find anyone not living on island time down there. We have friends that have purchased small fixer uppers, and that was their biggest problem&#8230;getting the guys to work a full day was unheard of down there.  

Like the west coast too, we often go over to Lovers Key.


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## Floridagal (Dec 7, 2014)

Frodo, 

Yes, yes, a must down there in the Keys and even where we live now a "Generator". We have one where we are in Florida, and would never live without one. As far as the sand and such, you made a good point about the central vac.  Not only because of the sand but the salt as well.  We will defiantly check into what it all involves. That's something I think we would have to hire for installation if purchased.  

I've lived in Florida my entire life&#8230;.I would never have carpet in a home in Florida, area rugs yes&#8230;but never carpet.  When we purchased our home where we live it was wall to wall carpet&#8230;. needless to say was the 1st improvement we made getting rid of it, and getting wood & tile.


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## johnv713 (Dec 7, 2014)

Someone mentioned you've to buy your own tools and sometime they ain't cheap. They'll pay for themselves in the long run though. What are you trying to do with the stair case? Dont know enough to help ta there, just curious.


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## nealtw (Dec 7, 2014)

Consider the cost of living else about while you are working on this place. At that stage, we would be about six week to completion with contractors and a general contractor.


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## Floridagal (Dec 8, 2014)

johnv713 said:


> Someone mentioned you've to buy your own tools and sometime they ain't cheap. They'll pay for themselves in the long run though. What are you trying to do with the stair case? Dont know enough to help ta there, just curious.




John, 

Since my husband is a elevator contractor he has a lot of tools, plus we know a lot of friends in different trades, all have offered their help by letting us borrow the tools that we don't have, we also can rent and buy some as well. Not sure what you mean about cost of living? Our primary home that we are keeping for a couple more years is fairly close to the home we've purchased.  The cost of living is pretty much the same as where we live. Possibly you're referring to the cost of accommodations while we're working on the home? That will be an additional cost here and there but not much as we will be staying at one of our friends vacation homes down there. Once we get the CO we will be staying in the home.  

If we lived far away, a few hours or more, the travel back and forth would be expensive but that's not the case.  To our amazement we have found that gas nearby the island where the house is much cheaper then where are our primary home is, grocery stores are the same as where we live, the island where we purchased is a tiny island there is absolutely nothing on the island other then residences, and a big resort as soon as you cross over the bridge to get on the island.  However, everything is within a few miles or less.  

The staircase is up but, it's raw. No nearly finished, we can order a staircase kit, or we can have someone come in to finish what's there, living in Florida my entire we're not too familiar with staircases either.


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## Floridagal (Dec 8, 2014)

nealtw said:


> Consider the cost of living else about while you are working on this place. At that stage, we would be about six week to completion with contractors and a general contractor.





Thanks, I was thinking about 8 - 10 weeks with a contractor and crews. The problem in the Keys is the contractors down there are double the cost then out of Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Palm Beach county because theres not a lot of them down there. This is partly why we will be doing a lot of the work ourselves, and sub contracting out some of the work.


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## Floridagal (Dec 8, 2014)

I'll see if I can download some of the photo's of the home and post.


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## Floridagal (Dec 8, 2014)

Nealtw, 

Question re staircase treads, do most match the steps to the wood flooring used? When we get to the staircase I'd like to install something that's not going to be slippery that also looks nice, any suggestions? I've noticed there are many staircase kits that we can order, not sure if that would be advisable&#8230; either way we will hire to complete whether kit or not.  

We will be using slate flooring in this area where the staircase is located which is a fairly large open foyer area, wood everywhere else except bathrooms & laundry room. However its pretty much an open concept so not sure if we go with treads if normally you would match the wood treads to the wood flooring, that will be visible from the foyer.


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## nealtw (Dec 8, 2014)

Some go for wood to match, more often we see hardwood end caps under  the spindles and carpet on the stairs
http://store.kinzelwoodproducts.com/false-tread-cap/


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## frodo (Dec 8, 2014)

central vac is EASY EASY  to install, did i say easy,  i meant real easy


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## nealtw (Dec 8, 2014)

frodo said:


> central vac is EASY EASY  to install, did i say easy,  i meant real easy



They do a good job and in most cases will outlast the house but there are down sides too. Draging the hose around the house, riping the woodwork apart on every doorframe and drywall corner. 
Get tired of haulling the hose up and down stairs, go buy a second hose and beaterbar and it will cost as much as a protable unit.

Now we see battery driven units and I am sure they will get better in a few years, I would not go for a built in again.:2cents:


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## frodo (Dec 8, 2014)

then put a outlet in each room.  did someone only put 1 upstairs in your house and 1 down stairs?

i have never had m that system.  i just drag the vac around with me.

funny thing about vacuums.  I bought the top of the line mega..does everything. for the house

my wife bough a cheapo wally world unit.  she likes the cheapo better


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## slownsteady (Dec 8, 2014)

One word: Roomba............


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## bud16415 (Dec 9, 2014)

Assuming Neal to be correct as he normally is he estimated 6 to 8 weeks for a well-oiled crew. Assuming 10 hour days and 6 days a week and with an average of say 5 people working any given day that&#8217;s maybe 2400 hours of work left. You guys will be working 3 full days and some partial time on the days you work other jobs so let&#8217;s say on an average week between the two of you and factoring in inefficacy of this not being your normal jobs and fatigue etc. say you can get an equivalent labor of 40 hours a week done that comes out to be 60 weeks or 1.25 years. 

Having just done a whole house although quite different than yours but roughly the same amount of work pretty much alone but with the help of an 80 year old guy that was a skilled builder in his day it was 2 years of coming home from work putting the tool belt on and hitting the ground running eating dinner on a ladder most nights a bite here and there. And it was about 2 years to finish. 

The savings in my case was massive as almost everything I did was high labor content and I wasn&#8217;t assuming my labor to cost anything. These kinds of projects have to be viewed as a labor of love and that you will be ending up with so much more than you could have had any other way and being able to enjoy the rest of your life not being sky high in debt. They will wear you down slowly and you have to keep your eye on the finish line. You two sound like you are up for it and we will all be here to cheer you on and answer questions when we can. The best of luck on this and it&#8217;s great seeing someone going for the smart thing not the easy thing.


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## nealtw (Dec 9, 2014)

The difference between this house and Bud's house, he was able to move in and make do. With a new house not so much, sometimes a home owner can get get an extention and move in with some things yet to do, but you want that permission and extention in writing.
First thing is the white board with all the jobs left, in the correct order, which trades come when and who can overlap.
If you do hire trades, they will want a time line and you have to have certain things ready for each of them and some framing is required after trades like hvac, plumbers, and some times electricions.


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## beachguy005 (Dec 9, 2014)

I could never understand a desire for a central vac system.  You still need to schlepp around a long hose with a vacuum attachment. They might of had some value when you had old, heavy, dusty vacuums.  Now, vacuums are of much better quality, smaller, lighter, also cleaner.  While it might be nice that the motor is out in the garage or closet, I just don't think they're worth having.
Kind of like a 30" CRT TV.  Cool when they first came out but I'd much rather have a 32" flat screen LED.


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## Floridagal (Dec 9, 2014)

Thanks Guys, 

Now I'm not so sure about the central vac system. LOL We'll check into it, but not sure what we will do. If I didn't I would think having 2 vacuums would be the smartest thing for us, one for upstairs and one of the first level.  

To address the amount of people helping us, we have 3 adult sons that all can help as well during the weekends. We also have a neighbor that is a carpenter, and all around good worker. All said they would help, plus we will subcontract some of the work out&#8230; (those jobs that we feel would be best left to the professionals). Such as the drywall mudding and sanding, it's so time consuming and when we remodeled our primary home my husband attempted it and wasn't happy at all as it wasn't as smooth as he desired.   

I'm curious as to how much work is required before we are issued a Cert. of Occupancy. Like do we have to have the floors in prior to getting the CO, do we have to have all the bathrooms complete, do they require all the appliances and kitchen cabinets in&#8230;. Not suggesting that anyone would know for sure because that's certainly up to the Building/permit department, and I'm sure every area is different with a different set of requirements. 

It would be great if we were to complete one bathroom and a bedroom, bring in a portable fridge, and grill, then we could stay there while we're working on the house.  Hey if a inspector shows up, it's easy to answer the door with a hammer in hand, who says we can't work in the evenings as well.  

I might be incorrect but I do feel this home will be a little easier then a fixer upper, because we don't have to demolish anything it's already to start working without having to knock down walls, remove cabinets, move walls or layout of bathrooms, not to mention having to gut the kitchen and bathrooms, etc.  We're excited and at the same time a bit nervous, not because of the work to be done, it's a big step for us to take on our vacation home/investment home/future retirement home. 

Trust me I'm certain that we will have many questions that most of you guys can answer, or advise, make suggestions.


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## Floridagal (Dec 9, 2014)

nealtw said:


> The difference between this house and Bud's house, he was able to move in and make do. With a new house not so much, sometimes a home owner can get get an extention and move in with some things yet to do, but you want that permission and extention in writing.
> First thing is the white board with all the jobs left, in the correct order, which trades come when and who can overlap.
> If you do hire trades, they will want a time line and you have to have certain things ready for each of them and some framing is required after trades like hvac, plumbers, and some times electricions.



My husband has that punch list of what must be completed, not so much a white board but on his cell and he printed it out so that we can hang it in the home.


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## nealtw (Dec 9, 2014)

Most people build with a builders loan and convert that to a mortgage when complete so I don't know if the city or the bank that is the biggest problem.
The best trades people will be lined up with a handfull of builders that each have a few or many houses on the go at the same time so scheduling will be tricky. But those are the contractors you want.


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## Floridagal (Dec 9, 2014)

nealtw said:


> Most people build with a builders loan and convert that to a mortgage when complete so I don't know if the city or the bank that is the biggest problem.
> The best trades people will be lined up with a handfull of builders that each have a few or many houses on the go at the same time so scheduling will be tricky. But those are the contractors you want.



Neil, 

We were going to go that route getting a construction loan that could be converted to a traditional mortgage. The problem we found with every single bank, mortgage broker, etc was that the home is too far along to get a construction loan, and not far enough along to get a conventional mortgage.  

And yes, the tricky part is scheduling a contractor/sub contractor to do the jobs we don't want  to take on, mainly because of where the home is, they truly do live on Island time.  If it's a nice day (its a fishing day) for most down there.  Which is why we will be hiring out of Miami or Ft. Lauderdale&#8230;. our friends had more problems with getting people to work then the work itself.


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## nealtw (Dec 9, 2014)

Up here you can buy a building lot with 20% down, balance on completion or 6 month. Then the bank pays for the lot out of the builders loan, leaving people without enough to finish the house. I sent a friend back to the bank to ask about that and he got unrelated answers until I went with him and asked questions that the banker had to answer. He would have been short $100,000 and the banks don't understand what the problem is.
How much travel would off island contractors have to do? Or will you be paying for hotels too?


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## beachguy005 (Dec 10, 2014)

I wouldn't be too concerned with a C/O as long as the house is tight to the weather.  I'm not sure what the technical aspect of the law is but I would think as long as you have working plumbing and a functioning bathroom, a legal source of electricity and neighbors that aren't nosy complainers, you'd be ok.
Just remember that the more furniture you move in, the more you'll have to work around or move it. Cheap air beds are easy to move around and we've all lived with temporary kitchens and partial baths while renovations were being done.  I'll also add that working smoke detectors is especially important.


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## bud16415 (Dec 10, 2014)

Neal is correct as is Floridagal. There is a huge difference between a rehab and completing a partial done home. You guys won&#8217;t have the demo work and won&#8217;t be dealing with a million unknowns as you can for the most part assume all that has been done has been done correctly and to code. We could have moved into our home at any time after closing as it was technically sold as an established dwelling but we chose to take about 6 months to get the major dirty work done. Even though we had a working bath and a bed there like you mentioned oh and a microwave and mini fridge. 
We paid cash at the sale and cash as we went along for supplies so there was never a note against the property and that allowed us to run pretty much in stealth mode. 

You won&#8217;t have that option. Around here it is very difficult if not impossible for a person to secure any kind of line of credit solely against a project such as yours based around the home owner doing the work unless he is a contractor with a track record. In my parents day my dad went to the bank and said I bought a lot and I&#8217;m going to build my own house I have a job and I want a loan to build the house and they said ok. More recently I have helped one person build a house and have a good friend that built his own home and both were on their own as far as money and in both cases the same banks later said oh nice house would you like a home equity loan against the home we thought you couldn&#8217;t build. You may have to leverage your current home or something to secure a loan.   

I don&#8217;t know how it is in Fla and I know a lot of financial houses are holding paper on a lot of unfinished projects so maybe they are ready to think outside the box. I always try and look at it from all perspectives and I did this with the short sale we bought. I say to myself this house has been on the market for 2 years and they are almost giving it away. How come some builder/flipper/rental landlord hasn&#8217;t scooped this up. In our case it was the little town was exactly where we wanted to live and a place where hardly anyone else wanted to live. So for a builder or flipper putting a lot of time and money into it he would still have been competing in a depressed market. For a landlord they are looking for turns on their money and not major renovations. In this town it would have rented but there were more for sale that just needed fresh paint. 

The only real thing an individual has going for them is sweat equity and location. You have to view it as you are in competition with everyone else that has looked at it. They have all carefully calculated what the final cost will be for them and how they have to finish the house and then they factored in after it was done what they could likely expect to get as a return and how long that might take. You have an advantage you know you have a homeowner ready to move in and it is what you want. You also don&#8217;t need to turn a profit you just want to come in under the market value.


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## Floridagal (Dec 10, 2014)

nealtw said:


> Up here you can buy a building lot with 20% down, balance on completion or 6 month. Then the bank pays for the lot out of the builders loan, leaving people without enough to finish the house. I sent a friend back to the bank to ask about that and he got unrelated answers until I went with him and asked questions that the banker had to answer. He would have been short $100,000 and the banks don't understand what the problem is.
> How much travel would off island contractors have to do? Or will you be paying for hotels too?




Normally, a bank would give a construction loan, then we would simply convert to conventional loan. However, as I stated above the home is too far along for a construction loan and not far enough for a conventional loan. Then contractor that we've been in contact with that is on the island right now, is actually doing work at the resort on the island but the resort only allows him and his crew to work 3 hours a day because it is a resort&#8230; they are putting him and his crew up for the next few months, so we won't have to pay for any accommodations. Which is excellent in our case, they are right there within 3 minutes of the home.


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## nealtw (Dec 10, 2014)

So he is already charging them for a full day so he should be really reasonable, you would be the dream customer he could only dream of having.
Which trades would he have?


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## Floridagal (Dec 10, 2014)

beachguy005 said:


> I wouldn't be too concerned with a C/O as long as the house is tight to the weather.  I'm not sure what the technical aspect of the law is but I would think as long as you have working plumbing and a functioning bathroom, a legal source of electricity and neighbors that aren't nosy complainers, you'd be ok.
> Just remember that the more furniture you move in, the more you'll have to work around or move it. Cheap air beds are easy to move around and we've all lived with temporary kitchens and partial baths while renovations were being done.  I'll also add that working smoke detectors is especially important.



Hey Beachguy, 

We're not planning on moving any furniture in until the dirty work is complete, been there and done that with our renovations in our primary home. Which was a disaster, we had dust even in the fridge and in drawers/cabinets, etc. So wouldn't move anything into the home until all the dirty dusty work is complete. I don't think there will be a problem if we brought in a mini-fridge/air mattress/microwave so we can stay there once we get a functioning bathroom/shower.  No one can just walk in as we can lock all the doors, and who says we can't work in the evenings too .  I don't think the neighbors would be a problem but you never know for sure.  I'm going to call the building department today to get more information from them.  I think smoke detectors are good to install even before we're finished, which is easy to do.


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## Floridagal (Dec 10, 2014)

bud16415 said:


> Neal is correct as is Floridagal. There is a huge difference between a rehab and completing a partial done home. You guys wont have the demo work and wont be dealing with a million unknowns as you can for the most part assume all that has been done has been done correctly and to code. We could have moved into our home at any time after closing as it was technically sold as an established dwelling but we chose to take about 6 months to get the major dirty work done. Even though we had a working bath and a bed there like you mentioned oh and a microwave and mini fridge.
> We paid cash at the sale and cash as we went along for supplies so there was never a note against the property and that allowed us to run pretty much in stealth mode.
> 
> You wont have that option. Around here it is very difficult if not impossible for a person to secure any kind of line of credit solely against a project such as yours based around the home owner doing the work unless he is a contractor with a track record. In my parents day my dad went to the bank and said I bought a lot and Im going to build my own house I have a job and I want a loan to build the house and they said ok. More recently I have helped one person build a house and have a good friend that built his own home and both were on their own as far as money and in both cases the same banks later said oh nice house would you like a home equity loan against the home we thought you couldnt build. You may have to leverage your current home or something to secure a loan.
> ...




Thank you Bud for your input, all helps a lot reading all you and others have gone through while building or rehabbing. The home wasn't on the market and never has been, we happened to come across the homeso I asked the real estate agents about the home, and no one could give me any information on this partially finished home. So I did a little research and found the homeowner, and contacted him to find out if he would be interested in selling, and he was due to circumstances in his life going on. We made an offer and he excepted after I got an appraiser to do an appraisal on the home as is, and estimated value upon completion, and the numbers we're perfect for us. So we are paying cash, and all the building materials, sub contractors, etc we will be paying out of pocket.  Once it's complete we may decide to take out a small mortgage on it but it's not a big hurry. 

I have a complete history of all permits, inspections, and results of inspections, everything has passed and there are no problems with any of the work that's already been completed. The seller had started the home to be a hurricane proof home, he went above and beyond what was actually required by the building department.  

All the banks that I spoke to before we signed the contract and purchased stated that based on my husband being a licensed elevator contractor that they would give a construction loan for Owner/builder but since the home is what they consider 85% complete they couldn't give a construction loan. Which we were alright with since we could purchase the home and complete the home with out of pocket cash.  

We would want to get a small mortgage after it's complete and after we sell our primary home in a couple years so that we can have some interest as a tax ded we will also apply for homestead exemption after we sell our primary home is a couple years. Although, not sure we might be better off not taking out a mortgage once it's complete because the tax ded probably would be less then the benefits of not having a mortgage, we'll cross that bridge when we get to itlol 

Thank you so much for all the input, it really helps a lot to read what you guys have to say.


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## bud16415 (Dec 10, 2014)

You are very welcome. It sounds like you have done all your homework and thanks for clearing up why you wanted the mortgage. My way of thinking is you do want some cash reserve and a project like this could draw your savings down pretty good but we are the type people that like the idea of being mortgage free much more than reversing the process once we achieve that goal. Something like a home equity line of credit would give you ready cash if you needed it and the trick is to never need it. 

I dont know what the rules are in Fla but if you pay cash for the place I dont see why you couldnt finish it in part to make it so you could live there and then take your time with the rest. Im not sure what you do for insurance in that case. But if the banks are telling you its past the construction phase and you do the things to make it safe I dont see any reason you couldnt get insurance on what you have at the time as long as its all documented. 

Its good they recognize what he does as a contractor and will apply those credentials to your project. But its better yet you have the cash to get it done. 

It really boils down for you to how long you want to take compared to how much you want to spend on labor and someone else profit.


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## Floridagal (Dec 10, 2014)

bud16415 said:


> You are very welcome. It sounds like you have done all your homework and thanks for clearing up why you wanted the mortgage. My way of thinking is you do want some cash reserve and a project like this could draw your savings down pretty good but we are the type people that like the idea of being mortgage free much more than reversing the process once we achieve that goal. Something like a home equity line of credit would give you ready cash if you needed it and the trick is to never need it.
> 
> I dont know what the rules are in Fla but if you pay cash for the place I dont see why you couldnt finish it in part to make it so you could live there and then take your time with the rest. Im not sure what you do for insurance in that case. But if the banks are telling you its past the construction phase and you do the things to make it safe I dont see any reason you couldnt get insurance on what you have at the time as long as its all documented.
> 
> ...




Bud, 

I'd think since the home has hurricane rated windows and doors, a secure roof that has more then required tie downs and the way it was constructed we should be able to get insurance once the insulation/drywall/ceiling is stalled and finished.  I agree about being mortgage free, as when you think about the possible tax ded benefit of the interest paid, we would ultimately save more not having a mortgage at all.  If need be which I doubt we can get a equity loan.  Having 3 adult sons that can all help here and there, our neighbor that has also offered to do some of the work with us, and the contractor that is already there and being put up with his crew at the resort, I think we should be good. Really if you stop and think about it there isn't a ton of work, time consuming work because of the sq footage but the most crucial work, electrical, plumbing, stucco, roof are all completed and well done according to my husband, and the contractor that's down there working on the resort.  

I can't see with us subcontracting out the drywall/mudding, that the flooring, painting, bathroom/kitchen cabinets, installing appliances, tile work is that difficult, more time consuming then anything.  The staircase is something we have to check further into, as it seems like we might be smarter to get someone in to finish that work.  The railings around the loft area on the second level is also something we may end up hiring to install.


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## frodo (Dec 11, 2014)

when i applied for home insurance on a home i was building,  i was told I had to be living in the home to get insurance

they would not insurer without it being occupied.  so i moved in. they came out to inspect/look it over and were satisified


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## Floridagal (Dec 11, 2014)

I'd think that there's insurance for the home while under construction. I know there's liability insurance available for the workers. I'll have to check further into it.


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 11, 2014)

I would require any sub you hire to provide proof of workers comp and general liability insurance with you listed on the certificate before they set foot on the job. If someone gets hurt and they don't have it, you may be liable for a claim. This is totally different than structure insurance.


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## nealtw (Dec 11, 2014)

Builders here get some insurance when the house is at lock up, roof on, windows and exterior doors in.


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## bud16415 (Dec 11, 2014)

The house we bought we spent $24,000 on and when we talked to the insurance provider they issued a policy with the contingency of doing a walk around inspection. There were several issues based on the square footage and the outside condition being good they were suspicious looking in the windows and by all the scrap already piled along the drive way they called and threatened to cancel due to the fact we were not living there. We told them we were and told them we were living in the second floor. We then moved a bed in and got one bedroom cleaned up enough that we could actually be living there if they asked to come in. we had buckets of water to flush toilets even though water wasn&#8217;t restored yet. They bought it and only had a few complaints one was the pile of scrap was too close to the garage and the door I put in to the deck didn&#8217;t have a deck yet. I moved the pile and screwed a board across the door telling them it couldn&#8217;t be opened and they were fine. I wasn&#8217;t too worried about insurance on the building as we didn&#8217;t have a great deal of cash invested but was worried about someone getting hurt. 

I would say from what you have told us the open stairs will need a sturdy temp railing to code even if its made from 2 x 4&#8217;s you might have to cover some outlets and tell them you are living there. (Not sure in today&#8217;s world if you can.) I found the best way was to let them suggest stuff and then just agree and do it. I really didn&#8217;t think they had a clue about actually building anything but had learned a lot of things that were red flags to look for. I grew up for the first 10 years of my life living in a finished basement house as my dad built the upstairs. But that was then.

I don&#8217;t know what is legal as to living at a location where the inspection process has not been taken to the final one. The new codes and that whole process is something I would become very familiar with before I signed to buy. 

I also would be very careful about workers without proper coverage. Family and friends you have a level of trust with but some guys hiring out of the builder center parking lot and working under the table I would think twice about.


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## nealtw (Dec 11, 2014)

http://www.americanstrategic.com/Products/BuildersRisk.aspx


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## Floridagal (Dec 11, 2014)

Thanks again guys, 

I'm going to call a couple Insurance companies tomorrow to see what's available out there, if any. If they require us to live there I'd do as Bud did, we can move a air mattress in and pretty much make it look like we're living there if need be, besides we would like to get one working bathroom functional and set up a temporary bedroom while we are working on it anyway. 

I do want to make sure any workers are covered too, especially any sub contractors, I'd want to see that they are insured and list us on the policy the last thing anyone needs is to have a worker hurt and then come after us. That wouldn't be a good thing at all, first I wouldn't want anyone to get hurt, secondly I wouldn't want to be liable. 

The staircase and loft safety railings (temporary 2 x 4's) is the first thing we need to do once we get down there after the holidays. Even for our own safety they need to be put in, we've purchased all the 2 x 4's and have that bright orange plastic mesh temporary fencing as well. I don't want to risk anyone getting hurt, currently the previous owner has a cat walk across the loft area (Beyond me why) but its there yet there's plenty of room to walk around without having to cut across a cat walk.  Maybe it was there from when they installed the HVAC into the 2nd floor ceiling but it's not useful at this point. We will have a lift brought in to do the insulation and drywall in the ceilings.  

As far as outside there is some debris laying about but most seems like floating boat docks not construction debris, when we get down there after the 1st we will clean up the lots, the house sits on one lot, a detached finished garage is sitting on another lot, and the other two are vacant with no building on them at all, which will remain vacant, we will landscape them with native vegetation and some up-lighting with gravel walk ways.


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## Floridagal (Dec 11, 2014)

PS.. So are any of you up to coming down to the beautiful Florida Keys to do some work, will pay&#8230;.and have a nice 24 ft luxury jet boat, and a couple jet skis as perks, but then you probably would fall into island time and only want to work half days like the rest that have caught the dreaded Florida Keys disease!  haha.  All of you guys have been great, making me think and rethink and throwing things out there that I hadn't thought about either!  I can't wait to post some photos of what it all looks like now and as we progress!  Pic as is soon to come!


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## nealtw (Dec 11, 2014)

Havn't met a home owner that doesn't make changes after the house is framed.
Designers don't always seem to be in the loop on some things like building the bathroom 59" wide for 60 " tub or kitchen windows over cupboards should be  more than 42" from the floor.
Have the kitchin cupboard people in, they usually mark out the cupboard on the floor and make suggestions for the best design, the plumbers electricians and even the hvac guys work to that plan.


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## Floridagal (Dec 11, 2014)

Neal, 

Your so right, the plans the previous owner has that we've assumed with written permission from his engineer aren't exactly what I want, or need.  Example the back of the home doesn't have any doors that would lead to a deck that we will be building, and yet there's side doors to two patio's.  It's beyond me why they wouldn't have installed doors on the back of the home since it would be the obvious place to put in french doors.  Also, theres a tv room on the 2nd floor, which isn't necessary when you have a large living area on the first level and now days most have tv's in  bedrooms.  So that room we could actually close off and turn it into another bedroom, it has a closet already so we really only need to amend the plans and add the framing to change it to another bedroom.  We shall see, may wait on that until after the county appraiser estimates the value since adding an add'l bedroom will increase the value?!?


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## slownsteady (Dec 11, 2014)

Not sure how FL deals with it, but in NJ, if the room has a closet, it's counted as a bedroom.


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## Floridagal (Dec 11, 2014)

slownsteady said:


> Not sure how FL deals with it, but in NJ, if the room has a closet, it's counted as a bedroom.




Slownsteady, 

Even if its not framed out? Currently is open, when you walk up the stairs its a large open area.  If it's the same here then there would be no point in waiting to get it framed out as a bedroom and less of a mess later on with drywall/sanding, etc.

I would like to get all the insulation/drywall/sanding done at one time instead of having to deal with the mess after the property appraiser comes. If it's not considered a bedroom yet because its an open room with no framing other then exterior walls and closet then we could save money on the estimated appraised value, I'd think?


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## Floridagal (Dec 11, 2014)

Another change I'd like to make since Neal kind of brought it up, is to install windows (one solid piece of glass on one wall, and another solid piece on the side wall) in place of a backsplash.  I've seen it in a house and thought it was really a nice touch.  Something that I've thought about a lot, and seems like it would be nice since part of the kitchen looks over the back of the house, the other side faces the side. Of course this would require custom made glass and the glass would have to be hurricane rated glass.  Probably a pretty penny but it is something that I'd really like in the kitchen.


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## nealtw (Dec 11, 2014)

Entertainment deck, hubby can dart to the kichen and back while bar-b-queing and guests don't have to go thru kitchen to visit him there.
Extra windows, or moving windows can be a problem. You have to start at the roof and identify bearing loads, trusses that have other trusses attached to them are girders and require extra stud all the way to the foundation, windows above, direction of roof trusses and direction of floor joists above all have to be considered.
Windows to close to the floor must be safety glass, most people change those to shorter windows when they get the price. Here it is somewhere around 18".


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## slownsteady (Dec 12, 2014)

Floridagal said:


> Slownsteady,
> 
> Even if its not framed out? Currently is open, when you walk up the stairs its a large open area.  If it's the same here then there would be no point in waiting to get it framed out as a bedroom and less of a mess later on with drywall/sanding, etc.
> 
> I would like to get all the insulation/drywall/sanding done at one time instead of having to deal with the mess after the property appraiser comes. If it's not considered a bedroom yet because its an open room with no framing other then exterior walls and closet then we could save money on the estimated appraised value, I'd think?



I'm not sure about the sequence of things or the rules for FL. so I can't answer directly. My experience here is that the TV room has a closet, therefore it's appraised as a bedrm. This affects the size of the septic system I had to put in (sized according to # of bedrooms) and of course, the taxes.

One guy i know went so far as to wall off a couple rooms with drywall until after appraisal, then he cut the holes for the doors afterwards. Just sayin'.


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## frodo (Dec 12, 2014)

.  I like to hide rooms.  to be used as storage for furs, jewelry, guns. or panic room
 if it were up to me,  one of your rooms would disappear behind a book shelf, entertainment center of full length wall to wall mirror


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## Floridagal (Dec 12, 2014)

I like both ideas, easy enough to have a hide away small room/area. Actually a great idea if we decide to offer it as a seasonal vacation rental for a couple seasons before we retire.  We could store our personal items in such a hidden area/space. It would be very easy to frame one out off the tv room on the second level or turn what the previous owner framed out as a wine cellar on the first floor into a private space to store personal items, such as cloths, shoes, and things we don't need to bring back to our primary home and yet need down there. Hanging a full length mirror to hide a locked space for our personal items would be a great way to hide it as well. Thanks for a great suggestion!


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## Floridagal (Dec 12, 2014)

slownsteady said:


> I'm not sure about the sequence of things or the rules for FL. so I can't answer directly. My experience here is that the TV room has a closet, therefore it's appraised as a bedrm. This affects the size of the septic system I had to put in (sized according to # of bedrooms) and of course, the taxes.
> 
> One guy i know went so far as to wall off a couple rooms with drywall until after appraisal, then he cut the holes for the doors afterwards. Just sayin'.



So basically if we closed off (wink wink) the closet, then it wouldn't be considered a bedroom and once all is said and done we can open it up. Of course we would want to finish that closet before drywalling over it so that whenever we did decide to open it it's all done except for cleaning up the mess and finishing the rough cut after cutting out the drywall that would cover it. Something to consider if it's going to save some on the property appraisers value i.e. property taxes!


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## beachguy005 (Dec 13, 2014)

So your 3 br morphs into a 4 br and 2 years down the road you list it for sale as a 4 br.  Anyone doing due diligence is going to ask for the permitting and if it's a legal 4th br.
The reality is that it's not about having a closet in a room...I have one in my living room, that doesn't make it a bedroom.  Your house's original construction permit will say how many brs were built and any permits after will say if you added brs legally. 
While you may think you're never going to sell, those kinds of issues can create delays or problems down the road.
If you're going to be having inspections on work done, most of those Inspectors aren't stupid.  They know the games and tricks.  While I'd admit to doing unpermitted work on my houses, I'm not recommending running down to the assessors office if you decide to add a bedroom after the fact.  Just weigh the pros and cons.


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## bud16415 (Dec 13, 2014)

My house was listed as a 4 BR. In the process of rebuilding it one of the bedrooms was
on the first floor and was actually a parlor in its day but as the people were old they
didn&#8217;t want to climb stairs so it became a bedroom. I added an archway so now it&#8217;s an
extension of the living room called the TV room. Upstairs had 3 BR but one was only
6&#8217;x8&#8217; and made a great walk in closet. So now we are down to 2 BR if we ever sell. I
personally think it&#8217;s crazy how they try and set values on things base on someone making
a table of what rooms you have. I wish they would go by square feet and stay out of what
people want to do inside their house. I had a neighbor once that added an addition to his
house and left the top strip of siding off after a couple years I asked him if he ran out of
siding. He said no but he didn&#8217;t have to pay taxes on the addition until it was finished.


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## Floridagal (Dec 13, 2014)

Well this is already a 4 bedroom home 3 bathrooms&#8230;.1 bedroom on the 1st level and 3 on the 2nd level&#8230; I don't think we need a 5 bedroom yet at the same time it doesn't make any sense to have a tv room on the 2nd level either.  I think (could be wrong) the plans call this room in question with a closet a tv room.  I'll have to look again, don't actually need a closet in it either unless we were to turn it into another bedroom.  My question would still be if we want it a bedroom wouldn't it be smarter other then taxed value to do the framing as a bedroom now instead of after all is done? Mainly because of the mess, I would still consider making that closet a hide away space we could easily enough make a hide away closet within the closet, or the area that the seller wanted to make a wine cellar on the first level.


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## frodo (Dec 13, 2014)

3 bedroom with an office.   hide the closet as storage for the office.  you are ALWAYS going to need extra storage space
 a closet does not have to be a closet,  it can be for files, or a make up area, built in safe

or it could be the main computer video  room for outdoor/indoor security equipment/monitors / entertainment
center with speakers run thru out the house

or fill it up with canned beans!!!!!!!!!!!

Ideas....
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=hidden+rooms+behind+bookcases&qpvt=hidden+rooms+behind+bookcases&qpvt=hidden+rooms+behind+bookcases&FORM=IGRE


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## Floridagal (Dec 13, 2014)

Frodo, 

That's really a great idea.  Thanks!


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## Floridagal (Dec 13, 2014)

The more we have discussed the room upstairs that's on the plans as a tv room, the more we're thinking we could use it as a guest room/office. I've been looking at murphy beds/entertainment center combo's and they've certainly come a long way since the 60's - 80's.  My husband said add it to the list of things to build&#8230;he seems to think it could make one but not until all is done. Which I agree there's no big hurry, need to get many other projects finished&#8230;"Like the house".


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## frodo (Dec 14, 2014)

Floridagal said:


> The more we have discussed the room upstairs that's on the plans as a tv room, the more we're thinking we could use it as a guest room/office. I've been looking at murphy beds/entertainment center combo's and they've certainly come a long way since the 60's - 80's.  My husband said add it to the list of things to buildhe seems to think it could make one but not until all is done. Which I agree there's no big hurry, need to get many other projects finished"Like the house".




I agree,  if you decide to sell, extra bedroom is money


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## Floridagal (Dec 14, 2014)

We will have to change the plans that are filed though because I did look at them it's not a bedroom on the plans so it will eventually have to be changed and the one thing I recall about remodeling our primary home was the mess the drywall sanding left.  So prior to putting in cabinets, flooring, etc. we will have to frame it out and put up the drywall to close it off as a guest room/office.


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## slownsteady (Dec 14, 2014)

minimize dust from drywall sanding by using a damp sponge instead of sandpaper.


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## oldognewtrick (Dec 14, 2014)

There are sanding sponges that are abrasive for reducing dust that ive used for doing repairs.


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## Floridagal (Dec 15, 2014)

slownsteady said:


> minimize dust from drywall sanding by using a damp sponge instead of sandpaper.




Good to know, the dust from the sanding on our remodel was the worst part of the renovations. Had dust every where, in all cabinets, cloths were coated with a light dust, I'll check into the sponges and anything else that will help.


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## beachguy005 (Dec 15, 2014)

I was never a rock and mudder by trade but with my own renovations, I learned to tape and mud to the point of barely having to sand.   The trick is in a good first coat on the tape but not too much.  Scraping it down between coats to remove any peaks.  When almost done I would use a light held along the wall and a 3" knife with some mud to fill any tiny pits or lines. Just put it on and scrape it off.


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## Floridagal (Dec 15, 2014)

beachguy005 said:


> I was never a rock and mudder by trade but with my own renovations, I learned to tape and mud to the point of barely having to sand.   The trick is in a good first coat on the tape but not too much.  Scraping it down between coats to remove any peaks.  When almost done I would use a light held along the wall and a 3" knife with some mud to fill any tiny pits or lines. Just put it on and scrape it off.



I went onto YouTube and found a few good tutorials. It does seem your correct about the first coat and tape really makes a big difference. The damp sponge also helps, I found a gadget that you can insert a sanding block into that also attaches to the industrial vacuum too. Although I think with this big of a job that would be a little time consuming, but the first coat and tape makes a big difference in following coats.


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## Floridagal (Dec 20, 2014)

Insulation finished except for the ceiling which we're considering blown in insulation vs rolled type, any preferences here?


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## nealtw (Dec 22, 2014)

We build attic access at least 13" above ceiling drywall. Over the exterior wall you want air shoot stapled to the roof sheeting for ventulation and plug the rest of the hole with batts.
If you have roof over dects or entrence ways that don't need insulation , roughly add plywood or something at least 13 inches high over the wall to keep the insulation over the house.


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## Floridagal (Feb 17, 2015)

We're ready for a couple more inspections, also have the entrance doors installed now. Feeling like we're making headway now&#8230;


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## Floridagal (Feb 17, 2015)

A couple photos of doors we just installed, the house is beginning to take shape.


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## havasu (Feb 17, 2015)

Very nice looking doors!


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## Floridagal (Feb 17, 2015)

Thank you, I took a risk and bid on them on Ebay&#8230; Didn't see them in person until they arrived.


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## havasu (Feb 17, 2015)

Wow! That was a gamble that paid off. Congrats...


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## Floridagal (Feb 17, 2015)

We've done a lot of work but most was work that no one see's, so it's nice to see something that isn't hidden in the ceilings, wiring, or walls.


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## Floridagal (Feb 18, 2015)

Have a question&#8230;All our framing is completed, also all the ducts are done the way we feel was the correct way, the AC wiring is complete as well, we also installed a exhaust fan that vents outside the wall of the attic space.  My question is after looking over all the classes (3 digits) for the different type of inspections I'm not sure what the attic space is&#8230; Do any of you know if it is a mechanical inspection? Also, can't find any class codes for duct work, strange because the building department gave me a list with the 3 digits that match the work needing inspections and I'm really surprised the duct work isn't on the list.  So anyway my main question is what is the inspection called for the attic space, everything is completed up there, duct work, bathroom vents, framing for ceiling, wiring, etc.  

Please let me know, I hate to have to call the building department to ask because they get an attitude sometimes, some are great and extremely helpful but some not so nice.  Thanks in advance


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## nealtw (Feb 18, 2015)

That might be a local thing. It might be part of the framing inspection as it all has to finished before the insulation goes in and hides everything.


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## Floridagal (Feb 18, 2015)

I have all the insulation in the walls, all the framing is done as well. Haven't done the insulation in the attic space because they said they need to inspect before we insulate the attic space.  I think i'm going to have to call because the codes and their ways down there is a lot different then where our primary house is located.  Hopefully, I'll get a helpful kind person and not one that's real vague.  

I suppose I could tell them my husband told me which inspection to call for but I forgot and maybe they will tell me  It will probably be the best way to get a answer.  

Thank you Neil!


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## nealtw (Feb 18, 2015)

The city is just like here, no dumb questions but some questionable answers.


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## Floridagal (Mar 22, 2015)

So over the past two weeks we've had two framing inspections. 

1. Inspector stated I'd pass you but you need to add wood around the entire interior exterior walls&#8230; At the top where the insulation ends, we had it in most areas but not all. He in detail explained the reason it can slow down a fire from spreading to 2nd level&#8230;Ok no problem he said we can put it right over the installed insulation. Did it&#8230; and ordered 2nd framing inspection. 

2. A different inspector told us we have to take it down and cut out the insulation and put it back against the block wall. 

There's already a 6" wide 3" depth wood that's nailed directly into the block, which is in essences part of the interior outside walls that help support the sub flooring on the 2nd level. 

My question is what do we do, one inspector told us to do it one way and another said to do it another way and neither makes much since since a 1" x 3" is hardly going to stop a fire it would be more like kindle then a fire barrier&#8230; However, the heavy duty wood that goes completely around the interior exterior walls would for sure slow it down. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Can't believe two different inspectors have told us to do this two completely different ways&#8230; The first one also stated everything was perfect except for that and he would have passed us. URRR! HELP!


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