# Why does this wire not have a ground?



## farmerjohn1324 (Nov 30, 2017)

This cable went to a box that had a GFCI and a switch. It only has two wires, hot and neutral. It was a metal box and there was also a separate ground wire attached to the metal box (green) that I traced back to a receptacle that is on a different circuit.

I want to reconnect this cable to a new GFCI, but will it work with no ground? Obviously not, but what do I hook the ground up to? This green ground was connected to the metal box, but my new box will be plastic. Can I hook up a ground wire to the GFCI outlet that is attached to another circuit? These outlets all previously worked.


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## nealtw (Nov 30, 2017)

So you do not want the ground running to the next box. The GFCI will work with out the ground but it should be labeled as un grounded. See the sticker down the page here.
http://stonehavenlife.com/replace-two-prong-receptacles-with-gfcis/


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## Sparky617 (Nov 30, 2017)

It is an older house without grounds.  The Romex appears to be old cloth covered wire common in the early to mid 1950's and maybe a bit later.  You can install a GFCI like this in a house without ground wires, it will function as a GFCI.  I believe the cover plate should be marked to indicate that there isn't a ground.

If you're doing a lot of remodeling, I'd update the wiring to include grounds.

https://www.thisoldhouse.com/ideas/replacing-two-prong-receptacles

Tip: Even if an outlet box isn't grounded, installing a GFCI in it will still protect you (and your tools and appliances) from ground faults. But an ungrounded GFCI can't safeguard sensitive electronics, such as a computer or phone, from the interference caused by stray currents. The National Electrical Code requires you to stick a label on the receptacle that reads, "No equipment ground." These labels come in the box with a new GFCI.

http://www.ecmweb.com/content/replacing-2-wire-ungrounded-receptacles


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## farmerjohn1324 (Nov 30, 2017)

nealtw said:


> So you do not want the ground running to the next box. The GFCI will work with out the ground but it should be labeled as un grounded. See the sticker down the page here.
> http://stonehavenlife.com/replace-two-prong-receptacles-with-gfcis/



When you say "the next box" do you mean the receptacle on the other circuit or you mean the next GFCI on this circuit. Because there will be 3 GFCI's in series, one of which I would have to assume will have a microwave on it.

If the ground can't be attached to the recep on the separate circuit, then why has it been working this way for so long? In case of overflow, does it really matter what ground path the current takes back to the panel?


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## Snoonyb (Nov 30, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> This cable went to a box that had a GFCI and a switch. It only has two wires, hot and neutral. It was a metal box and there was also a separate ground wire attached to the metal box (green) that I traced back to a receptacle that is on a different circuit.



Is the ground conductor in the same romex that the switch leg is in?

If it is you can measure between the hot conductor in the switch leg to grnd. and if you have 120V, the grnd. is active, and you can pigtail from the GFCI to the grnd. conductor.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Nov 30, 2017)

Sparky617 said:


> It is an older house without grounds.  The Romex appears to be old cloth covered wire common in the early to mid 1950's and maybe a bit later.  You can install a GFCI like this in a house without ground wires, it will function as a GFCI.  I believe the cover plate should be marked to indicate that there isn't a ground.
> 
> If you're doing a lot of remodeling, I'd update the wiring to include grounds.
> 
> ...



Can it safeguard a microwave?

It would be a lot of work to replace that one old Romex. Would need to remove entire wall panels or drywall from the ceiling.

There will be 3 GFCI's on this circuit. I suppose all 3 will act as miniature breakers/fuses to prevent excess current. In this case, what is the point of grounding any circuit that is protected by GFCI's?

What if a ground comes over from a receptacle on a different circuit? Doesn't that make sense because it would still have a path back to the ground bus bar on the panel? Apparently, that's how it's been hooked up for years.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Nov 30, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Is the ground conductor in the same romex that the switch leg is in?
> 
> If it is you can measure between the hot conductor in the switch leg to grnd. and if you have 120V, the grnd. is active, and you can pigtail from the GFCI to the grnd. conductor.



No. The ground was a single, loose green wire that was wired from a receptacle on a different circuit.

I know that is odd wiring, but it apparently worked for years. And it makes sense. As long as current can get back to the ground bar in the panel, why does it matter what path it takes?


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## Snoonyb (Nov 30, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> No. The ground was a single, loose green wire that was wired from a receptacle on a different circuit.



"you can measure between the hot conductor in the switch leg to grnd. and if you have 120V, the grnd. is active, and you can pigtail from the GFCI to the grnd. conductor."


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## nealtw (Nov 30, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> When you say "the next box" do you mean the receptacle on the other circuit or you mean the next GFCI on this circuit. Because there will be 3 GFCI's in series, one of which I would have to assume will have a microwave on it.
> 
> If the ground can't be attached to the recep on the separate circuit, then why has it been working this way for so long? In case of overflow, does it really matter what ground path the current takes back to the panel?



It is only a problem when something goes wrong. Just screwing the outlet into the box makes a connection so adding a ground to that box make no difference.

Running a wire to the next box with a ground wire I think is against code.
What can happen. If you have 2 wire with out ground, there is no guarantee that the ground in the next box runs back to the breaker, it may just be a short addition to an old circuit.
If there is a short in one box that does not trip the breaker, the next box connected by ground now is live with 120 volts. If that other outlet is on the other leg you would have a potential of 240 volts at both boxes.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 30, 2017)

He's replacing a metal box, with a plastic box.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Nov 30, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> "you can measure between the hot conductor in the switch leg to grnd. and if you have 120V, the grnd. is active, and you can pigtail from the GFCI to the grnd. conductor."



You said if it's in the same Romex, which it's not.

Also, since all of the outlets on this circuit are GFCI's, is it safe to not have a ground wire in the cable going to the first outlet in the series?


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## nealtw (Nov 30, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> You said if it's in the same Romex, which it's not.
> 
> Also, since all of the outlets on this circuit are GFCI's, is it safe to not have a ground wire in the cable going to the first outlet in the series?



If you have the first outlet gfci protected and wired correctly they all will be protected with that one outlet.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 30, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> You said if it's in the same Romex, which it's not.



And it was purposely omitted from the quote, in response to your comment that it was a stand alone conductor.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> Also, since all of the outlets on this circuit are GFCI's, is it safe to not have a ground wire in the cable going to the first outlet in the series?



If you choose.

In a kitchen I always connect a grnd. conductor

As previously discussed, you only need a single GFCI to control all the recep. on the circuit, which are downstream of the GFCI, you power them from the load terminals of the 1st, in succession, which means that were there to be a fault in any one of them, they all shut off, downstream.

However, if you want each individual GFCI powered separately, and individual from all the rest, you power them from the line terminals.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 1, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> And it was purposely omitted from the quote, in response to your comment that it was a stand alone conductor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay.

Now if I were to reconnect the single green ground wire to the first GFCI in the series, would it be a hazard? Would it make any difference at all? Would it allow me not to have to put that sticker on the outlets?

Because that would create a path for current to reach the ground bar on the panel (and eventually the Earth), right? The fact that it comes from a different circuit is irrelevant to it's ability to act as a ground wire.


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## nealtw (Dec 1, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Okay.
> 
> Now if I were to reconnect the single green ground wire to the first GFCI in the series, would it be a hazard? Would it make any difference at all? Would it allow me not to have to put that sticker on the outlets?
> 
> Because that would create a path for current to reach the ground bar on the panel (and eventually the Earth), right? The fact that it comes from a different circuit is irrelevant to it's ability to act as a ground wire.



That is against code in some places


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## afjes_2016 (Dec 1, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> ...There will be 3 GFCI's on this circuit. I suppose all 3 _*will act as miniature breakers/fuses to prevent excess current*_...



_*Absolutely incorrect. *_
GFCIs are not for this purpose and do not provide this type of protection at all.

I would highly suggest farmerjohn that if you are going to be doing a lot of electrical work at your job that you take some time on your own and do some study work on the internet and learn some basics of how different devices work and function; such as a circuit breaker, GFCI, AFCI, fuse, grounding a receptacle or switch needs etc. It will save you a lot of other reading and confusing yourself in the long run. Learn the basic terminology; for without the proper terminology you will not be able to follow the proper logic needed in order to accomplish your task successfully and safely and may end up causing harm to someone in the future.


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## Snoonyb (Dec 1, 2017)

nealtw said:


> That is against code in some places



Please site a code section applicable to the NEC as adopted and amended in the county in Florida the OP resides in.


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## nealtw (Dec 1, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Please site a code section applicable to the NEC as adopted and amended in the county in Florida the OP resides in.



I can not. But I will see if I can dig it up.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 3, 2017)

What is the proper way to bend/break the tabs on a work box? It is always extremely difficult for me to slide wires in and out of them. Am I supposed to break them off completely?


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## Snoonyb (Dec 3, 2017)

No! They are designed that way as a retainer so that the 6" of working conductor length, is not diminished.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 3, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> No! They are designed that way as a retainer so that the 6" of working conductor length, is not diminished.



Well it's near impossible sliding them in and out. I am having to push so hard that it has caused connections to come loose.

It is literally impossible for me to push or pull these wires through this box. There is no way this is how it was designed because it makes no sense.


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## Snoonyb (Dec 3, 2017)

There should be no need to remove them.

It's your methodology. Insert the romex, secure the box in the wall, strip the romex and conductors, connect the device and fold the conductors into the box, secure, install the cover plate and off you go.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 3, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> There should be no need to remove them.
> 
> It's your methodology. Insert the romex, secure the box in the wall, strip the romex and conductors, connect the device and fold the conductors into the box, secure, install the cover plate and off you go.



Okay thanks.


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## JoeD (Dec 3, 2017)

You should not have all that sheathing in the box. There should only be 1" or less sheathing and then minimum of 6" of wire for the connection to the device.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 3, 2017)

JoeD said:


> You should not have all that sheathing in the box. There should only be 1" or less sheathing and then minimum of 6" of wire for the connection to the device.



Okay thanks.


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## hornetd (Dec 4, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Okay.
> 
> Now if I were to reconnect the single green ground wire to the first GFCI in the series, would it be a hazard? Would it make any difference at all? Would it allow me not to have to put that sticker on the outlets?
> 
> Because that would create a path for current to reach the ground bar on the panel (and eventually the Earth), right? The fact that it comes from a different circuit is irrelevant to it's ability to act as a ground wire.



You are correct that the ground wire in the other circuit would go back to the Neutral at the Service Equipment Enclosure.  The factor that you do not seem to be aware of is that every piece of metal through which that Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) passes will cause Inductive Reactance in the EGC.  The magnetic field around a single conductor is not cancelled out by the same field from the other conductor if the current is not flowing through wires which are quite close to each other.  Reactance is a form of resistance to current flow that is unique to AC circuits.  The magnetic field passing through the metal wall of each box induces a circulating current flow in the metal.  That current flow causes a magnetic field around the metal of the box that is not rising and falling in voltage at the same time as the current that caused it.  That unsynchronized magnetic field radiating back from the metal of the box induces a voltage into the wire that the first magnetic field came from.  Since the two voltages in the wire are not synchronized with each other the second voltage "fights" the original circuit voltage and reduces the flow of current.  When both parts of the current path are in the same trench, raceway, or cable then the current flow at any given point in time is opposite the current flowing in the other conductor.  That causes the two magnetic fields around those wires to cancel each other out which makes the Inductive Reactance almost Zero.  The stronger the initial current flow is the stronger the reflected voltage will also be.  This additional resistance to current flow can cause a delay in the operation of the Over Current Protective Device (OCPD) such as circuit breakers.  If the current is leaking to the EGC from an Arcing fault then any delay on the operation of the OCPD will cause the arc to last longer and generate more heat.  That raises the likelihood of a fire of electrical origin.  Rather that tying the separate EGC wire to the EGC of a different circuit the code allows you to run it back to the Service Equipment, to the Grounding Electrode Conductor, or to any of the Grounding Electrodes that form part of the Grounding Electrode System.  That way the Fault Current Pathway will not be through the walls of several metal boxes as in unbalanced current.  If all of the boxes of the other circuit are plastic then the amount of Reactance that results from the divergent pathway will probably be negligible.


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## hornetd (Dec 4, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Please site a code section applicable to the NEC as adopted and amended in the county in Florida the OP resides in.



That is a ridiculous demand.  nealtw didn't say it was forbidden at Farmer Johns location. He said in "Some Places."  If the NEC is adopted by reference in FarmerJohn's location then extending an Equipment Grounding Conductor from the GFCI receptacle box to the ungrounded receptacles which are protected by that GFCI is indeed a violation of the NEC.  You will find the prohibitive language in the same section that allows the protection of Grounding Receptacles that are installed were there is no ground by a GFCI and also requires those GFCI receptacles to be labeled "No Equipment Grounding Conductor."


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## hornetd (Dec 4, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> No! They are designed that way as a retainer so that the 6" of working conductor length, is not diminished.


That really does depend on what you mean by "Tabs."  If it is a lightweight piece of plastic that is there just to provide some closure to unused knock outs then you remove those completely.  If is is the heavy finger like tabs that are hard to move and have ridges across them to hold the jacket of the cable in place then you do not remove those.  

Put a single layer of tape over the conductors you have already striped the jacket off of. Put just an inch of the taped conductors into the box and push the remainder of the wire and cable back in the wall.  With the cable out of the way put the box in place in the wall.  Grab the end of the taped wires with your lineman's or small point pliers.  Pull the cables into the box until the jacket is under the molded in clamps and 1/4" to 1/2" of jacket cab be seen beyond the clamp.  Now you should be able to secure it in place as designed and proceed to wire up the devices and mount them to the box.  If you have more than 1/2" of cable jacket inside the box it will be very hard to work with.


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## Snoonyb (Dec 4, 2017)

hornetd said:


> That is a ridiculous demand.  nealtw didn't say it was forbidden at Farmer Johns location. He said in "Some Places."  If the NEC is adopted by reference in FarmerJohn's location then extending an Equipment Grounding Conductor from the GFCI receptacle box to the ungrounded receptacles which are protected by that GFCI is indeed a violation of the NEC.  You will find the prohibitive language in the same section that allows the protection of Grounding Receptacles that are installed were there is no ground by a GFCI and also requires those GFCI receptacles to be labeled "No Equipment Grounding Conductor."



Actually, it isn't "ridiculous" to ask that a poster references a code and section as adopted and amended in the governing jurisdiction where this OP is performing a permitted, or non permitted remodel.

The information generated is for more than a singular use.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 4, 2017)

hornetd said:


> You are correct that the ground wire in the other circuit would go back to the Neutral at the Service Equipment Enclosure.  The factor that you do not seem to be aware of is that every piece of metal through which that Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) passes will cause Inductive Reactance in the EGC.  The magnetic field around a single conductor is not cancelled out by the same field from the other conductor if the current is not flowing through wires which are quite close to each other.  Reactance is a form of resistance to current flow that is unique to AC circuits.  The magnetic field passing through the metal wall of each box induces a circulating current flow in the metal.  That current flow causes a magnetic field around the metal of the box that is not rising and falling in voltage at the same time as the current that caused it.  That unsynchronized magnetic field radiating back from the metal of the box induces a voltage into the wire that the first magnetic field came from.  Since the two voltages in the wire are not synchronized with each other the second voltage "fights" the original circuit voltage and reduces the flow of current.  When both parts of the current path are in the same trench, raceway, or cable then the current flow at any given point in time is opposite the current flowing in the other conductor.  That causes the two magnetic fields around those wires to cancel each other out which makes the Inductive Reactance almost Zero.  The stronger the initial current flow is the stronger the reflected voltage will also be.  This additional resistance to current flow can cause a delay in the operation of the Over Current Protective Device (OCPD) such as circuit breakers.  If the current is leaking to the EGC from an Arcing fault then any delay on the operation of the OCPD will cause the arc to last longer and generate more heat.  That raises the likelihood of a fire of electrical origin.  Rather that tying the separate EGC wire to the EGC of a different circuit the code allows you to run it back to the Service Equipment, to the Grounding Electrode Conductor, or to any of the Grounding Electrodes that form part of the Grounding Electrode System.  That way the Fault Current Pathway will not be through the walls of several metal boxes as in unbalanced current.  If all of the boxes of the other circuit are plastic then the amount of Reactance that results from the divergent pathway will probably be negligible.



Okay. It runs through one box, which is metal. I will replace the metal box with a plastic one and everything should be good.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 4, 2017)

What is the purpose of this piece of black plastic that is behind the terminal screw? All it seems to be doing is getting in the way of tightening the wire.


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## afjes_2016 (Dec 4, 2017)

If you are referring to "A" it is to help keep the conductor in place while being tightened. The conductor would normally turn as you tighten it. This keeps it in place for a secure fit.

Also your strip of the conductor is far too long and exceeds far too much around the screw which is probably causing you issues with that "black piece of plastic". The strip should only go from the bottom of the screw (from the back of the receptacle) 2/3 of the way around the screw - not like you have it; causing me to assume you are referring to "A".

And - you did not even need to wrap the conductor around the screw. You could have saved yourself some time. That receptacle has "pressure plates" and using them would have been far easier and just as reliable. Again, do some reading on the basics.


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## hornetd (Dec 4, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Actually, it isn't "ridiculous" to ask that a poster references a code and section as adopted and amended in the governing jurisdiction where this OP is performing a permitted, or non permitted remodel.
> 
> The information generated is for more than a singular use.


OK we disagree.  That needn't be the end of the world as we know it.  I would think that the OP could check from the national document for any difference to the locally adopted version.  Like the code itself I do not think anyone should use this site as a "Training Manual for untrained persons."  If the OP cannot do that much for themselves then they have absolutely no business meddling with electrical work.  If a person needs to be spoon fed then they need to "Put down the Kliens before anyone gets hurt."


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## hornetd (Dec 4, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> What is the purpose of this piece of black plastic that is behind the terminal screw? All it seems to be doing is getting in the way of tightening the wire.


With that receptacle design there are several ways to make a good connection.  One of those ways it to back the screw out until it is no longer easy to turn.  Do not force it any further or you will damage the receptacle's contact plate.  Strip the wire for the width of a pair of lineman's pliers.  Put the tip of the stripped wire between the black plastic block and the screw and turn the receptacle clockwise.  The stripped wire ends up fairly tightly wrapped around the screw which is then tightened down onto the stripped portion of the wire.  If any unstripped wire extends beyond the back of the receptacle the stripped portion was too long.  If any insulation actually touches the screw the stripped portion was too short.

The easier way to terminate that receptacle has already been explained by another poster.  Strip to the gauge that is molded into the back of the receptacle, insert the wire straight in between the contact plate, that the screw is threaded into, and the pressure plate that is held by the head of the screw.  You can put two conductors under one screw when it is fitted with a wire trapping pressure plate.  If the pressure plate does not turn down at the edges then see if the contact plate has one wire groove or two.  The number of wire grooves under the flat pressure plate is the number of wires that can be terminated.  No manufacturer makes a three wire termination at this time.  The instructions included with the listing and or labeling specifically forbid wrapping a wire above the pressure plate if there are one or more terminated under the pressure plate.  The NEC requires that listed devices be installed in accordance with the instructions included with the listing or labeling.  Sems pressure washers, were the washer turns down at each corner, are no longer used in receptacle manufacture but if they are encountered in an existing device they can be used to terminate two wires.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 4, 2017)

afjes_2016 said:


> If you are referring to "A" it is to help keep the conductor in place while being tightened. The conductor would normally turn as you tighten it. This keeps it in place for a secure fit.
> 
> Also your strip of the conductor is far too long and exceeds far too much around the screw which is probably causing you issues with that "black piece of plastic". The strip should only go from the bottom of the screw (from the back of the receptacle) 2/3 of the way around the screw - not like you have it; causing me to assume you are referring to "A".
> 
> And - you did not even need to wrap the conductor around the screw. You could have saved yourself some time. That receptacle has "pressure plates" and using them would have been far easier and just as reliable. Again, do some reading on the basics.



Yes, "A."

Can you give a ballpark figure for how much copper to expose? I did 1".

You said I didn't need to wrap the wires around. Did you mean pre-bend the wire in the shape of a hook? That's what I did, then I crimped more as I tightened the screw.

I was told to put 6" of wire in the box in addition to 1" of Romex. This is what I did. I had 2 Romex so 6" of black, white, copper + black, white, copper, plus a 6" copper pigtail. It was quite difficult to fit all this back in the box, but I got it done. I think I would have been better off with 4", but I don't want to do something dangerous or something that I shouldn't do.


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## afjes_2016 (Dec 4, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Yes, "A." Can you give a ballpark figure for how much copper to expose? I did 1".



Expose enough copper to wrap the conductor about 2 - 3rds around a screw (again in this case since it has a pressure plate) just expose enough copper from insert point to end of pressure plate.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> You said I didn't need to wrap the wires around. Did you mean pre-bend the wire in the shape of a hook? That's what I did, then I crimped more as I tightened the screw.


When you have a pressure plate to work with in this case there is not need to expose enough copper to make a "pre-bend". Just insert the stripped bare conductor into the pressure plate and tighten the screw.




farmerjohn1324 said:


> I was told to put 6" of wire in the box in addition to 1" of Romex. This is what I did. I had 2 Romex so 6" of black, white, copper + black, white, copper, plus a 6" copper pigtail. It was quite difficult to fit all this back in the box, but I got it done. I think I would have been better off with 4", but I don't want to do something dangerous or something that I shouldn't do.



Ahh, working with 12 gauge?? Not so easy. Technically, code states to have the conductors extend 6" from the outer edge (face) of the box. As far as how much romex (sheathing) should extend into the box would be about 1/4 to 1/2 - no more than that.


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## Snoonyb (Dec 4, 2017)

hornetd said:


> OK we disagree.  That needn't be the end of the world as we know it.  I would think that the OP could check from the national document for any difference to the locally adopted version.  Like the code itself I do not think anyone should use this site as a "Training Manual for untrained persons."  If the OP cannot do that much for themselves then they have absolutely no business meddling with electrical work.  If a person needs to be spoon fed then they need to "Put down the Kliens before anyone gets hurt."



Yes we will and any time I quote or question the intent and purpose, I provide the subject verbiage as well as how it was amended, as a curtousey, have you?

If you took the time and followed this poster you'd be amazed how naive he is and how he has benefited from the 100's of years of knowledge he has availed himself of.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 4, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Yes we will and any time I quote or question the intent and purpose, I provide the subject verbiage as well as how it was amended, as a curtousey, have you?
> 
> If you took the time and followed this poster you'd be amazed how naive he is and how he has benefited from the 100's of years of knowledge he has availed himself of.



How am I naive? I've fixed every problem I've had and never caused a fire.


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## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 4, 2017)

afjes_2016 said:


> Expose enough copper to wrap the conductor about 2 - 3rds around a screw (again in this case since it has a pressure plate) just expose enough copper from insert point to end of pressure plate.
> 
> 
> When you have a pressure plate to work with in this case there is not need to expose enough copper to make a "pre-bend". Just insert the stripped bare conductor into the pressure plate and tighten the screw.
> ...



1/4 to 1/2"? And 6" from the plate means that less than 6" goes in because the terminal screw is a slight distance from the plate? And if I'm doing a pigtail, I'll do 2x 3"?


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## Snoonyb (Dec 5, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> How am I naive? I've fixed every problem I've had and never caused a fire.



Without this and other forums, where would you be?

You are still learning the terminology that speaks our language.

My work ethic, since I was 8, on a farm in North Dakota, was someone is going to get paid to do this, so why not me, and I learned it, without the internet.

Terminology I learned over 40yrs. ago, before the internet, and I'm sure I am not alone in that.


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## hornetd (Dec 5, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Without this and other forums, where would you be?
> 
> You are still learning the terminology that speaks our language.
> 
> ...


Look if you don't want to help the guy then don't.  This is a do it yourself forum.  Castigating people for not knowing the craft in such a forum is just an ego trip and no one will be impressed in a positive way.  I have done electrical construction and service work for over 50 years in places as diverse as Tierra del Fuego, Alaska, Malaysia and Uganda and yet I'm fairly certain that I do not know all there is to know about the electrical craft.  Any day that I can't learn something new I will check the obituaries for my own name.


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## Snoonyb (Dec 5, 2017)

hornetd said:


> Look if you don't want to help the guy then don't.  This is a do it yourself forum.  Castigating people for not knowing the craft in such a forum is just an ego trip and no one will be impressed in a positive way.  I have done electrical construction and service work for over 50 years in places as diverse as Tierra del Fuego, Alaska, Malaysia and Uganda and yet I'm fairly certain that I do not know all there is to know about the electrical craft.  Any day that I can't learn something new I will check the obituaries for my own name.



So, you "elected" to miss the point, which is, to show the respect to those of us who have worked in the trades, learned the terminology and are sharing that knowledge, by using the the terminology, so that we do not have to guess what you mean, saving us both time in reaching a solution.


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## inspectorD (Dec 5, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> So, you "elected" to miss the point, which is, to show the respect to those of us who have worked in the trades, learned the terminology and are sharing that knowledge, by using the the terminology, so that we do not have to guess what you mean, saving us both time in reaching a solution.



I do not agree with that, we all took years to learn.. we are not going to get that in a DIY forum.

If it bothers anyone  who has to answer questions to us simpler folks, such as myself, and help them to understand, Maybe you shouldn't help... or move on.
But this is close to being a "know it all" all the time... and we wont have that,,
Cuz we certainly do not all..know it all.


Civility.. helps us to listen... and understand.


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## Snoonyb (Dec 5, 2017)

inspectorD said:


> I do not agree with that, we all took years to learn.. we are not going to get that in a DIY forum.
> 
> If it bothers anyone  who has to answer questions to us simpler folks, such as myself, and help them to understand, Maybe you shouldn't help... or move on.
> But this is close to being a "know it all" all the time... and we wont have that,,
> ...



So, you missed this point; " so that we do not have to guess what you mean, saving us both time in reaching a solution." Instead there are threads that exceed 20 pages and that's a lot of wasted space and time.


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## hornetd (Dec 6, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> So, you missed this point; " so that we do not have to guess what you mean, saving us both time in reaching a solution." Instead there are threads that exceed 20 pages and that's a lot of wasted space and time.


I don't think it is the others here who are missing the point.  It is your replies to peoples questions and your standards for how those questions should be answered that are lacking in civility.


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## Snoonyb (Dec 6, 2017)

IE., not living by your standards?

No sale!


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## inspectorD (Dec 6, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> So, you missed this point; " so that we do not have to guess what you mean, saving us both time in reaching a solution." Instead there are threads that exceed 20 pages and that's a lot of wasted space and time.



No point missed here.. If you don't understand how some folks learn.. then you should probably not answer, or move on.
Simple really.
Keep it civil...  telling us how we miss the point ..is your standard, not mine.


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## Snoonyb (Dec 6, 2017)

inspectorD said:


> No point missed here.. If you don't understand how some folks learn.. then you should probably not answer, or move on.
> Simple really.
> Keep it civil...  telling us how we miss the point ..is your standard, not mine.



I've been teaching all phases of the const. industry for 45yrs. and conservative principals, not handholding civility, are my forte. If you can't handle the truth, don't ask.


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