# Drain for Washer?



## tooltime

Hello everyone, 
This time I am looking for help/suggestions to   put a washer/dryer n a basement with no floor drain. My main concern is for the drainage of the washer. All I have is the area for the sump pump. 
The drainage system goes out the rear where I plan on putting the units, but it is roughly 44 off the floor. I do not know if it is feasible to tap into this somehow.
The other option I can think of is just draining it into the sump area (approx 18-20: across,  about 3 deep) but my concern there is the  sump pump not working out of the blue, then having a flooded basement.
Ideas anyone?






No, I don't know why there is duct tape there, was not ready to remove it in case bad things happen


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## manhattan42

The maximum vertical height a clothes washer discharge pipe can be is established by the manufacturer.

The dishcharge hose, though typically set for about a common standpipe height of about 36", does not have to be limited to that height.

Machines will often allow the dishcharge pipe to be connected to a drain 5' or higher from the outlet of the machine.

It may be possible, given your machine, to simply run the discharge outlet to the existing building drainage system above the 4'4" height.

Most plumbing codes require washing machines to discharge directly to the drain piping. But even if it is allowed to use a sump, it must be sized large enough and the pump volume big enough to move the large quantity of water that a washer produces when draining, but would still be a poor alterative to drainage system draining.


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## glennjanie

Hello Tooltime:
The picture of your plumbing could have been taken in my basement. I have an identical set-up. Manhattan42 is correct; I even had to put an extra hose on my automatic washer to reach the drain but it worked like a champ for over 10 years. The previous owner had their washer draining into the sump; I didn't want the sump working that hard so I changed it over. I wouldn't consider going back to the sump.
Glenn


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## tooltime

Awesome,  thanks to your post, manhattan42. I  went and  did a search, found this form G.E. While I  presently don't have a washer/dryer in my posession, I will hope that  all washer's will be  pretty similar in  discharge capabilities.



> In order for the drain hose to function properly, the drain must be at least 30" from the floor and less than 8 feet high.



My cieling height is les than 8' so, to take a stab at it, I am figuring of tying into the black PVC  (img above) branching off of it going to the left behind the main drain piping and then running a piece down to  be able to hook the drain hose from the washer to. Using a check valve to prevent water from   draining back into the washer drain hose.

Any opinions as to the best placement for the check valve? In the sketch I have it  jsut above the "U"  where the washer drain line will go.
Should I even bother with the "U", and just go with a  check valve at the bottom and straight pipe up, cutting/connecting the  washer drain line as close as possible?


Here is a quick sketch I tossed together to hopefully illustrate my idea.





*edit:
That's great to know, glennjanie. My original plan was to put a small addition on the back of the house, but that's not looking very feasable at the moment.  
Is your set-up anything like  my proposed one?
I plan on building a base out of pt/covered with osb or ply so that the washer/dryer will be level, and off the floor from any seepage that occurs during heavy rains.


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## manhattan42

Your proposed plan won't work.

The drain must go vertically at least 24" or so above the horizontal branch and then connect to it with a trap above that level.

A washing machine must discharge into a stand -pipe by way of an air break.

What you have sketched simply will not work.

It won't be able to pump the water up through the trap....

You don't need any check valve...You need to have the standpipe and trap above the horizontal drainage branch .........


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## glennjanie

Hi Tooltime:
Manhattan is correct; since the washer drain is an "indirect" connection (the hose is simply stuck in a pipe loosely) the water would spray out around the hose in your illustration.
You do have an opportunity for a rather simple connection though. You can cut out the 45 degree ell in the plastic pipe and replace it with a wye. That will give you the 45 for the sump pump to go through and leave the straight part of the wye sticking up to insert the hose in. You may need to extend the washer hose (or get a longer one from the dealer) in order to reach the pipe. Caution: after installing the wye you should make the sump pump kick on just to be sure it doesn't splash out of the pipe opening. Normally, black pipe is ABS instead of PVC; make sure you use ABS primer and cement on it. In my opinion, the wooden floor is a little over the top but I'm not going to tell you not to spend your money. You may have a reason that I'm not seeing.
Glenn


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## tooltime

Ok, now I&#8217;m really lost.

To tackle what seems to be the simplest solution,  
drop a &#8220;y&#8221; piece on the black ABS that goes to the sump.
Run  an extended hose  from the washer into the  upper part of they &#8220;Y&#8221; I just installed.
Go buy  a washer/dryer and call it a day.


Any reasons I would  not want a check valve on the  abs pipe then?  
My point of a check valve is to prevent water from back flowing down the pipe.
On my original thought, I figured there would be more  pressure pushing the water  through the check valve, than pressure  of  the standing water in the pipe. That would allow the water to discharge form the washer, but prevent water from backing into the washer at the same time. I also do not want the discharging water to   find it&#8217;s way into the sump, otherwise might as well save the work and just drop the hose in there to begin with 

I had also intended on it being a sealed connection, whether with additional pvc fittings, or a worm clamp.

I know I do not have 2&#8217; above the abs.

The purpose of the base is to raise the washer/dryer off the floor a bit (2&#8221;-4&#8221; maybe) and making it level, as the concrete floor slopes to the sump.


Forgive my ignorance folks, for not seeing what should be so obvious.. I know this isn&#8217;t brain surgery or NASA type skill required


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## manhattan42

Here's one way to do it:










-The washer drain goes vertically to a point a above the horizontal branch where you can get at least 18" of standpipe above the trap weir.

-The washer hose must connect to the standpipe via an "air break" so that waste, sump or sewage water cannot be siphoned back into the washing machine and potentially into your drinking supply.

-The standpipe drain must connect to the horizontal sump pump branch using a Wye as Glennjannie stated, or must connect directly to the vertical stack also using a Wye. Attaching to the vertical stack would eliminate any need for any check valves.

The point is that the washer has it's own internal 'check valve' so none is normally needed in the discharge hose. And because the washer must be connected via an air break, any water that backs up via the standpipe-horizontal branch connection is simply going to spill out onto the floor and not back into the washing machine.

You need to understand that an 'air break' is a an arrangement where a discharge pipe from an appliance, fuxture or device drains _indirectly_ into a receptor *below* the flood level rim of the receptor but *above* the trap seal.

In the case of a washing machine standpipe, the 'air break' is created thusly:






The washing machine pump only pumps the water to a point high enough that it can empty via _*gravity*_ into an standpipe, which is an air break type receptor.

In your diagram, the washing maching was pumping the waste water directly into a waste pipe connected to the drain.

This is a major non-no because backflow or backsiphonage in your case can cause polluted or contaminated water to get back inside the washer and potentially into the drinking supply system.

OK?


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## tooltime

Awesome pics there manhattan42 ! 

I do understand what a wye is, and I also follow  the issue of a standing pipe  as you just explained it  very well. 
But don't I need 2 of standing pipe to  place the washer discharge hose?  I do not have 2 of clearance, I measured from the top of the abs to the  floor joist above and I only have 1.
I went and grabbed a shot, and took some measurements. This is what limited space I have to work with. I am not seeing anyway to  get a 2 stand pipe in  here.




_*the blue tape was  there for me to write my measurments on._
Yellow-1 from top of abs to flooring joists
Orange- 6 from bottom of abs to floor
Green- is my 2 mark down from the floor joists
Blue  43 from the center of the access to the floor.

Originally I had planned to   put the washer and dryer to the left of the piping, that is where the water lines already are but I could relocate them to the right if necessary.


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## manhattan42

I beleive Ohio uses the plumbing requirements under the International Residential Code, and under that code, the standpipe for a washing machine must have a minimum height above the _trap seal_ of 18". 

The 'trap seal' is the height of the level of water in the trap. The standpipe must be at least 18" above that water level in the trap.

No where is 2' above the wye mentioned.

But it still does not appear that you have enough clearance because of these distance limitation to tie into the sump pump drain.

You could, however, make the connection by connecting directly into the 3"  vertical waste stack.

Otherwise you'll just have to sell your house and move....


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## tooltime

Code? Who said anything about code... I just want it to work and not cause further problems. 
I went to Home Depot to see what options I might have, seems like I am going to make this more complicated than it needs to be.  Conversing with the employee at the store , I think I have opted to extend the access to the cleanout and tie into it there with a trap. I can then get my 18" of height. Hoping to get this done by/through the weekend. My brother is coming up from TN to help me with some projects, and would like to take advantage of his help getting a washer/dryer into the basement.

4&#8221; Male Adapter (threaded)
4&#8221;x4&#8221;x2&#8221; San Tee
4&#8221; Fitting Clean Out Adapter
4&#8221; Thread Plug
2&#8221; 90 St. Elbow
2&#8221; P Trap  <- turned towards wall

2&#8221; ( for the straight pipe) & 4&#8221; ( to connect the 2 4&#8221; pieces).

All of this in black ABS.

Once this is all said and done I will post image for other&#8217;s who may have a similar situation.

JFYI, manhattan42, I would love to move and build a house from scratch rather than work around existing problems 

*edit: It was also highly recommended I  place a check valve near the sump pump. Not anythign to do with the particular issue at hand. Good thing, or waste of time?


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## Square Eye

Hey guys,

Wouldn't it be better to run this in PVC to the point where it all ties in?

Then a transition adaptor or a threaded adaptor to go from PVC to ABS?

I ain't no plumber!


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## glennjanie

Hi Tooltime:
If you wll check outside I think you will find an open vent of 4" pipe and, if you dug down, you would find a trap also. That is the normal connection for a sump pump. If that is the case, you could take the last 45 degree fitting out of the black line and replace it with a wye; y connect the bottom of the wye to the house drain, put the sump pump drain in the other end of the wye, and simply hook your washer hose into the branch of the wye. That would answer to the code very well. If that is too confusing, just let me know and I will attach a complete drawing to clarify it. Sorry about the remark about the wood platform, I've been told that is code now.
If the conditions outside are not like I supposed it to be, then Manhattan 42 is correct. If you make the washer a "direct" connection (clamping the hose) it will siphon the washer dry. It has to be an "indirect" connection (the hose simply hooked into the pipe)
Glenn


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## tooltime

Square Eye! Nice to hear form you. I wish it were that simple&#8230;  to break into that first  section of ABS and put the wye  there, and run my hose right there, without any additional modification (well , maybe a little.. can't have    water flowing out of the top of the wye when the sump kicks on.
 As for looking outside and all that, gelnnjanie, what do you propose? The  main  going through the wall is  probably 2&#8217; below ground level. 
The sump is just a   hole in the floor made out of concrete (not just a dirt hole), roughly like a 5-gallon bucket with  1 or 2    openings on the side. I figure this is   for drainage under the house? As I just stated, I think tying  in  right at that  abs would be great, and I think  you are suggesting to  run the  abs form the sump to somewhere else to do that&#8230; I think it would be a lot of work to dig out the  dirt,  drill through the wall and run  the abs sump out on it&#8217;s own piping.

It looks like I will have to wait till tomorrow before purchasing anything, I would appreciate any drawings (crayon or otherwise) or pictures if  glennjanie, or anyone has any relating to this.


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## manhattan42

From your description above, going into the existing 4" cleanout could work and work well.

You could use ABS or PVC for your drain materials since the final connection would be a thread connection where the 4" cleanout cap was located. 

A check valve should be in place immediately above the sump pump for the vertical waste riser. This would keep any water that is pumped up the 5-6' from running back down into the sump after the pump shuts down.

PS: I have to use crayons for my drawings because they won't let me have anything sharp here in the hospital....


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## tooltime

The deed is done! So far I havent noticed any issues ( sitll have no washer/dryer). I shoudl have the appliances in a ocuple days.  HEre is, as promised,  pictures of the work. Also is the base frame I made for the w/d to sit on. It still has to be sheathed in ply, but   strong enough for my bro and I to stand on. And the drain still comes in just under 6' high. Should work pretty well I think.


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## glennjanie

Congratulations Tooltime:
It looks just fine and will work like a champ. Whew, that job was about to wear me out, I'm glad its over.
Glenn


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## NHMaster

That's an illegal 3/4, unvented S trap.  Yes it will work, but then a whole lot of illegal things work.  Plumbing is about making it work and meet code.


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## Redwood

I hope this is discharging to a sewer and not a septic system...
Of course it would be an illegal hook up to a sewer for a sump pump to drain into it. But I suspect if it was to a septic tank the OP would have posted back about a very ugly situation....


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## DaveyDIY

So if that "T" on the main line had been turned sideways
Then the trap went into it, that would meet code?

I know my sump pump is not allowed to be tied into city sewer
But my washer is connected & drians to the sewer
My last house I had a seperate drain pit out in the yard & the washer went to that. But I had a septic system. When they put a new system in everything went to the septic 

Wow, just noticed this thread is 1.5 years old


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## Redwood

I guess it is a little late to give the right advice on this one however it's probably good that it has been marked as Bad Advice so nobody gets any ideas from it...


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## inspectorD

I like the duct tape hub connector myself.
So how does one go about fixing this issue if it is still not correct? 
That's really what we are here for guys.

The sump should drain outside prefferably at least 10 feet away from the foundation.
The S trap just needs a 4 inch flat on the upper section of the s trap, then it becomes a P trap.
I still do not understand what the Y is above the s trap...where does it go?
Does someone think they are equalizing the pressure or is this a redundant vent?

My advice is if this is a homeowner job, get the building dept at the least to get there to see where you went wrong. That is their job after all. Not just to look at the pro's and what they screw up, but to help homeowneres who will not hire someone, and end up doing it themselves anyway.

I love diggin up the old shtuff.


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## NHMaster

The right way to do this would have been to cut the 3" copper and put in a 3 x 2 sanitary tee and then gone with a 2" p trap and an 1 1/2" vent.   What is there now is an s trap and an unvented one at that.


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## hewood

Hello tooltime
They do sell battery backup sump pumps
hewood


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## hewood

tooltime said:


> Hello everyone,
> This time I am looking for help/suggestions to   put a washer/dryer n a basement with no floor drain. My main concern is for the drainage of the washer. All I have is the area for the sump pump.
> The drainage system goes out the rear where I plan on putting the units, but it is roughly 44 off the floor. I do not know if it is feasible to tap into this somehow.
> The other option I can think of is just draining it into the sump area (approx 18-20: across,  about 3 deep) but my concern there is the  sump pump not working out of the blue, then having a flooded basement.
> Ideas anyone?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don't know why there is duct tape there, was not ready to remove it in case bad things happen



Hello tooltime  They do sell battery backup sump pumps
hewood


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## DUNBAR

If that's a setup for a washing machine, that pump on the unit will fail with that much vertical lift involved.


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## nealtw

Just a dumb question, What about air behind water for the trap, would that screw up the pump?
Looks to me to be easier to pull the 4" cast "Y" and change it to plastic for about 3 ft above, wouldn't that give you room to add a "y" for the washer, the air behind water, the stack height and and a new "Y" for the pump.


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## junilerick

Jeez this is quite a complicated project you got yourself there. I would probably just hire a professional which may be a bit more cost effective.


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## WhiteTiger

This set up is wrong for other valid reasons. Now you have an open pipe in the basement on an overhead sewer.  When the city sewer or even your own sewer backs up it will come out of this pipe and flood your basement.

The proper way of doing this would of been cutting in a 3x2 tee on the 3" pipe and installing a pump in a box venting the pump in the box and running the discharge of the pump into the 2" inlet of the 2x3 tee.  Do not forget a check valve on the pump discharge.




http://www.libertypumps.com/Data/SalesLiterature/404.pdf


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## dcmander

Can someone please diagram the correct method of doing this? Is utilizing a separate pump the only way?


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