# Reframing window and cutting studs in existing Balloon framing construction



## Lev

Good day all and thanks for reading,

I am completely redoing my bedroom in a balloon framed house.
Directly below this room is a bedroom, and above this room is 1/2 a story, "in law" style bedroom.

One of the walls has 3 windows with widths in this order: half width - full width - half width. (see panoramic pictures. The pics are distorted because I'm new at taking panoramic pictures). Between the windows are studs. Consistent with Balloon Framing, those studs go from foundation all the way up.

The wall and window(s) in question:
http://tinyurl.com/k8n226d

Top of the inside room walls:
http://tinyurl.com/la8luxg

The wall of the above window from outside the house (front of the house):
http://tinyurl.com/nztzned

I would like to replace these 3 windows with one large window. In order to do that I need to cut the studs and create a large window framing. The framing part in itself I'm comfortable with. The cutting of the studs is what I want to ask about.

The ceiling joists, floor joists etc, are all running from side to side, parallel to the wall in question, so don't appear to be leaning on that wall.
Above the bedroom is a half floor, and then a shingled gable roof.

My guess looking at inside and outside, that there's not much leaning on these studs. But I wanted to ask here and see what opinions people might have.

Appreciate any advice and opinion you might have.

Thanks,
Lev


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## bud16415

It doesn&#8217;t look like there is much in the way of a header above the window now. On that end of the house with how the roof and floor and ceiling joists are running I would say most of the roof load is going down the wall on the side of the room. 

You should be able to brace that opening without much trouble and cut out what you need and reframe around it. Normally I think you add in studs equal to what you take out but there is no plate to set them on. I would still add in some studs sistered to the ones  left. 

I&#8217;m not a pro but the pro&#8217;s will be along shortly.


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## beachguy005

Your question aside....I'm wondering if you have fire blocking in all the stud bays and between floors.  Another issue would be your siding...is it asbestos?


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## mako1

Those studs going all the way up are carrying your gable end and the roof..What do you think will happen when you but the center out of them? I guarantee it won't be good.


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## bud16415

If those studs are running all the way to the basement and carrying weight they will be running right in front of the French Window below. You should be able to stick something down that stud bay and see what&#8217;s above the French window in the way of a beam that the studs now are resting on.


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## Jungle

A lot of the wood looks rotten.  Looks like major work reframe that. Has the house had water damage?


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## bud16415

As far down as you have it stripped I think I would take the base board off also and give you a little more room to work below the window. 
Once you know what&#8217;s below if you see any concern for the weight of the gable maybe a face beam the whole length of the room above the window and screwed into every stud a couple places and braced at the ends as a temp.

Fire blocking is important and quite a few of these framed houses have some but not all stud bays. My old house I found a couple drops running the whole way. Great for wires not so great in a fire. Look into the best way to correct that as you find areas that need it. I wouldn&#8217;t get to excited about the siding whatever it is. 

I don&#8217;t see any rotten wood looks like 200 year old yellow pine that&#8217;s been baking inside those walls for 100 years and good for 100 more.


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## Jungle

Look like they painted the inside of the walls black. Kinda cool!


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## nealtw

There is no roof load on the gable except for the overhang. Unless they cheated on the rafter over the wall and they did cheat sometimes, so you can't trust it.
I would still install a header, 2  2x10s nailed together, on balloon framing you notch out a stud on each side of the window, which will make your header longer than you would normally need. Sister another length of 2x4 on the outside of the notched stud to tie it all together. Run your lower sill all the  way out to the notched studs. Then put 2 2x4 jacks on each side of the window opening, then install the top sill betwen those doubles. Your rough opening should be a standard size and the window should be 1/2" smaller hight and width.

This the latest code for window install. [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2VOrk1MuWY[/ame]


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## Lev

Thanks everyone for the responses, especially bud16415 and nealtw.
Good advice, I'll check what the studs are resting on below this floor to get a sense of the load.

I'm trying to understand your suggestion, bud16415, for face plate above  the window and nailing/screwing to as many possible studs, and bracing it at the end.
So for example, take a long 2x4, maybe a couple, place above the window against  the studs and nail them to the studs? And add a steel brace at the end to the studs that will remain? Assuming there's no meaningful load on the studs, they should hold?

Agree that fire blocking is important. I'm thinking about a plastic conduit in the walls for wires, that would allow for wire movement, and then fire blocks and insulation. I'm going to remove the baseboard, just haven't gotten around to it.

Agree that header on the window is important, and thanks for the window framing guide, nealtw.

There's no water damage, nor anything is painted black. Thanks for the concern, Jungle. But if you have anything to say on the topic it would be most helpful.



bud16415 said:


> As far down as you have it stripped I think I would take the base board off also and give you a little more room to work below the window.
> Once you know whats below if you see any concern for the weight of the gable maybe a face beam the whole length of the room above the window and screwed into every stud a couple places and braced at the ends as a temp.
> 
> Fire blocking is important and quite a few of these framed houses have some but not all stud bays. My old house I found a couple drops running the whole way. Great for wires not so great in a fire. Look into the best way to correct that as you find areas that need it. I wouldnt get to excited about the siding whatever it is.
> 
> I dont see any rotten wood looks like 200 year old yellow pine thats been baking inside those walls for 100 years and good for 100 more.


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## nealtw

If you have watched house movers, to add temp. structure to questionable walls like garages the apply a 2x10 across the studs with lots of screws. And you could do that above the height of the header to help support thing while you cut out studs, but you likely won't have room for it.  It usaully take some or lots of time for things to settle so if you have a good plan and prep the lumber first. You should be able to do the cut and replace in a few minutes, no harm.


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## CallMeVilla

Neal is polite ... let me be blunt:  The header is REQUIRED, not just a good suggestion.  The 2x10 dimension should be adequate for your project.  By running it outside the rough in dimensions, you beef up the entire area.  Same goes for the new jack and king studs.  Yes, I would do a temporary support on the wall while you cut the studs to finish the demolition and reframing.

Fire blocks raise a big question.  Since you have one floor below you and a habitable space above you, fire blocks would be a good idea in any wall you demolish.  Unfortunately, this will improve only a portion of your entire structure.  As to plastic conduit my question would be why add the trouble.  ROMEX, properly run through appropriate holes in the framing is cheaper, faster, and fully code.


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## nealtw

Not sure what the purpose of the double bottom sill but if you want to nail drywall up you need a sill under the header.


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## bud16415

Neal did a good job of explaining what I wasn't so clear on. I wouldn't nail any of it. I would use long deck grade screws. Not long drywall type screws. The temp beam at the top is good for a couple reasons. One it will tie the wall together when working on it and two it will hold it together for sawing and such. Those old studs and square nails have a way of working loose when you are banging them around. Two deck screws per stud on the temp beam should work. 

Neal's point was the temp beam can't be so big it gets in the way of the header beam. Looks like you could get a 2x8 up by ceiling and have room. If you feel that's not enough screw another to it. 

Will you try and keep the new window within the size of the three now. Doing that you won't get into siding issues. And trimming it out should be easy. That's what I would do unless you want something much larger. 

Depends on the design you are going for. I most likely would have done three replacement windows. To match the bay window below. But don't know what look you want. 

Hope you post pics as you go. And good luck. 


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## Lev

Thanks again so much guys.

I have removed the baseboard, and discovered that all those studs I'm looking to cut are just nailed to the exterior boards and otherwise are cut off long before they would even lean on something below. Bud you were right - as it turns out, there's no beam above the french window below that floor.

I started putting up a face plate. It's really not that much work, but looks like there's no weight at all on any of those. Doesn't seem like there's a point in doing that.

If possible, should I also add a beam under the window and have the beam rest on studs that extend all the way down to the foundation?

Otherwise the window itself will ultimately rest on floating "studs" that are nailed only to the exterior boards.


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## Lev

I'm going to try to keep the window the size of the 3 - slightly smaller because I want to put in a new construction window... and don't want to mess with siding.


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## bud16415

That's what's great about these old gems. You never know what you will find. What they lacked in logic sometimes they made up by over designing everything else. The walls been working holding the windows that way for 100 years. But I would still try and tie it in to something below for the new window. The sheathing on these houses have a lot of strength. If you don't strap the studs together just work careful not to pull the sheathing nails loose. 


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## beachguy005

A couple potential issues I see.  If you &quot;don't want to mess with siding&quot; but want to cut the studs and put in a header for a new window, how will you reattach the 1x boards that they used for the sheathing to the new construction?
Also, I don't know what you're using for a new window but how are you planning on making it weather tight on the outside one installed?.................. As an added thought, and this is just my opinion.  While it's nice to have a large window, why even do what you want to do instead of just replacing the 3 windows with &quot;replacement windows&quot; of the same size and not change the architecture of your house. Save you from reframing also.


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## Lev

Beachguy, thanks for the comments - 
The studs I'm cutting are being held up by the sheathing and nothing else, it seems. So gently removing the studs shouldn't make much difference, right?

I'm going to build the new rough opening slightly smaller than the combined dimension of the 3 windows- so it will stick out. That way I'll weather proof the window and tuck the ends behind the existing siding. I don't want to mess with the siding but I'll do the necessary.

Appreciate your opinion about the replacement windows. I don't do this for a living, so this whole project is actually therapeutic  I don't need to save myself work. But more importantly, this type of arrangement of windows I think is not very modern. I'd like a modern window. I'm happy to do the work, and I'm happy to do it right. I don't presume to know everything but I use common building sense and get advice from good people who have the same spirit. I've done this stuff before. It ends up being not too bad. Thanks again.



beachguy005 said:


> A couple potential issues I see.  If you &quot;don't want to mess with siding&quot; but want to cut the studs and put in a header for a new window, how will you reattach the 1x boards that they used for the sheathing to the new construction?
> Also, I don't know what you're using for a new window but how are you planning on making it weather tight on the outside one installed?.................. As an added thought, and this is just my opinion.  While it's nice to have a large window, why even do what you want to do instead of just replacing the 3 windows with &quot;replacement windows&quot; of the same size and not change the architecture of your house. Save you from reframing also.


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## beachguy005

You can remove the studs but when you re-frame and add a header, which I assume will be above the original window, you need to re-nail the sheathing to the studs and header. You shouldn't just let the sheathing float over the new framing which I guess will be 6 to 8 feet wide.
The other point was from an esthetic perspective.  You have a 3 window bay on the 1st floor, your existing on the 2nd floor match.  Putting 1 large window over the three will change the look of the house.  I'm not sure I would do that....even as therapy.


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## nealtw

beachguy005 said:


> You can remove the studs but when you re-frame and add a header, which I assume will be above the original window, you need to re-nail the sheathing to the studs and header. You shouldn't just let the sheathing float over the new framing which I guess will be 6 to 8 feet wide.
> The other point was from an esthetic perspective.  You have a 3 window bay on the 1st floor, your existing on the 2nd floor match.  Putting 1 large window over the three will change the look of the house.  I'm not sure I would do that....even as therapy.



I like the arguement about the big window.

He can toe nail header to the sheeting or put the header up one peice at a time and screw the first peice with 2 1/4 screws into the sheeting, if the sheeting is 3/4 plus.


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## Lev

Guys appreciate your comments. I disagree about the 1st and 2nd floors matching. They really don't even now, despite the 3 windows on the 2nd floor. Also there are other renovation plans in the works which I can share later and might shed even more light on this choice, but I think aesthetically the large window on the 2nd floor will look perfectly fine and compatible with the rest of the house. Also, the smaller windows are pretty much useless. Ultimately this is a design choice.

I'm not saying I'm putting in a large window as therapy. I think that comment is really counterproductive (and unkind) for this discussion.

Neal thanks for the advice on the header - I was thinking about removing some of the siding just for the purpose of nailing the sheathing to the studs from the outside. I know it's work but at least it would be covered with the siding material. Not sure yet how thick the sheathing is. Is there a toe nailing technique that I can use without the risk of damaging the materials behind the siding etc?


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## beachguy005

Lev said:


> .
> 
> I'm not saying I'm putting in a large window as therapy. I think that comment is really counterproductive (and unkind) for this discussion.


   Hmmm...It was you that referred to the project as therapeutic and that project is the window.


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## bud16415

I would leave the old studs attached just as they have been. Only remove the part for the window header opening. If you want a few toe nails I would drill studs and use screws. 

I put a bunch of new windows in the old house we have now. Circa 1890's and did them all that way. I get the therapeutic part of it. 


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## nealtw

Like Bud said nailing thru  that old wood may be near impossible so screws might be the way to go. Toe nailing or screwing is just placing the fastener on an angle so the catch both peices of wood. Placement, angle and screw or nail length do have to be planned, but that's not rocket science. The two boards do have to be tight first as a toe will not pull it in tight, it will perm. set the gap if there is one.


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## Lev

Guys again really appreciate your tips, thanks a lot.
As I'm working on this part time (after my day job), I'm not moving very fast, but I have been able to make some decent progress in the last couple of days. I'll post pictures as soon as I complete the framing of the new window, hopefully this evening. Waiting for tax holiday in MA (this weekend) to buy the window and other stuff.


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## bud16415

I use screws several different ways. Most everyone just run them in and bury the head and like Neal said if there is a gap between the pieces it will remain. The new deck screws have two different threads to help suck the boards together but I haven&#8217;t had the best luck with those screws. I have a few clamps I use a lot couple Irwin bar clamps and a big C clamp. I will quite often put a clamp on before I run the screws to hold the joint tight. I also will pilot drill the top piece at least the first screw so the screw will pull the pieces together. If I&#8217;m near the end of a piece and I feel it will crack with the screw I will pilot both pieces and even counter sink for the head in finish work on harder woods. 

I know if I was a contractor up against a time line that might be a lot of extra work. One advantage of DIY you can take as long as you need to do a good job. Like you I&#8217;m always trying to do a little every night after work or try and find a free weekend to get a bigger job done. Taking your time I find has better results, there is something to be said for letting an idea soak in a day before trying it out. Lots of time I find myself coming up with a better plan after sleeping on it.


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## nealtw

bud16415 said:


> I use screws several different ways. Most everyone just run them in and bury the head and like Neal said if there is a gap between the pieces it will remain. The new deck screws have two different threads to help suck the boards together but I havent had the best luck with those screws. I have a few clamps I use a lot couple Irwin bar clamps and a big C clamp. I will quite often put a clamp on before I run the screws to hold the joint tight. I also will pilot drill the top piece at least the first screw so the screw will pull the pieces together. If Im near the end of a piece and I feel it will crack with the screw I will pilot both pieces and even counter sink for the head in finish work on harder woods.
> 
> I know if I was a contractor up against a time line that might be a lot of extra work. One advantage of DIY you can take as long as you need to do a good job. Like you Im always trying to do a little every night after work or try and find a free weekend to get a bigger job done. Taking your time I find has better results, there is something to be said for letting an idea soak in a day before trying it out. Lots of time I find myself coming up with a better plan after sleeping on it.



Bud the trick to having a screw pull wood together is the reach of the screw.
The reach is the distance between the head and the last thread. If the the reach is long enough the screw will spin in the first board and pull the second.
But nothing will help with a toe.


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## bud16415

nealtw said:


> Bud the trick to having a screw pull wood together is the reach of the screw.
> The reach is the distance between the head and the last thread. If the the reach is long enough the screw will spin in the first board and pull the second.
> But nothing will help with a toe.


 

Reach is good and I do try and think about that when buying screws for decking or where you have a whole bunch of the same situation to deal with. The new deck screws have two different pitches of thread on the same screw kind of like a turnbuckle only these are both RH threads. The idea is if it screws into the bottom board faster than the top the gap will close up. 

If you drill a hole in the top board first bigger than the threads of the screw any joint will close up toes included. 

Another trick I have done to pull a joint together before screwing is to run a couple screws in half way and then put a clamp on them. Screw the joint and then remove the two screws. When I just did the decking the planks had some bend in them. I would run a screw into the joist about an inch from the plank I was putting down and then drive a wedge in to force the plank straight then screw it down. 

I have a big old adjustable wrench that was my dad&#8217;s and I use it to twist studs straight before screwing. Sometimes that&#8217;s a two man job


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## Lev

Guys, here's an updated picture:
http://tinyurl.com/qam969o

I'm going to refer to a few things, so I noted some numbers on the picture:
http://tinyurl.com/py9gajq

First - almost nothing in the pictures is nailed - so I can still play with it.
Also, I'm planning on adding one sill under the header and one over the 4x4.

1: 
I put a 4x4 beam to serve as support for the future large window.
The studs in the middle are not studs - they are half loose and cut right below the floor level.
The beam rests on actual studs on each end. So this is definitely not a classic window framing. Any issues with this that you can see?

2: Behind the number 2 there are 3 pieces of wood. 
The rightmost is the window stud, from the beam to the header. 
The middle is a stud that I added, and nailed at the bottom to the existing stud.
The leftmost is not a stud, but a 2x4 that is nailed to the external board.

I plan to remove the leftmost piece. But the issue is that the new stud is not level. The stud below is also not level. And the stud to the left of all this, is also not level.
The degree of unlevel is not very high. But I was thinking about adding 2x4 pieces perpendicular to and between the new stud and the existing stud to the left. What do you think?

3: The header right now is longer than the 4x4 beam. That is because of the unlevelness of the studs. How big of a concern is this?

4: I was thinking of adding a long 2x4 spanning from leftmost stud of the wall to the 2nd rightmost stud of the wall, and then nailing the studs to it. Thoughts?


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## nealtw

re-post photos to make them easier to look at.


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## nealtw

I'm still a little confused so I will just put it my words.
Your header #3 should be long enough to sit on top of studs that go all the way to the bottom and should be tight under the studs that have been cut above on the outside of that you add another peice to tie the header to the stud above and below the header together.

The ceiling joist above that is against the wall would serve as the temp support that Bud was talking about. If is attached to the studs.
All header must be supported with bairing points to the foundation
When cutting those outside studs just remove 9 1/4" to slide the header in.
Sorry if I didn't make this clear in the earlier posts.


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## Lev

nealtw said:


> I'm still a little confused so I will just put it my
> words.
> Your header #3 should be long enough to sit on top of studs that go all the way to the bottom and should be tight under the studs that have been cut above on the outside of that you add another peice to tie the header to the stud above and below the header together.
> 
> The ceiling joist above that is against the wall would serve as the temp support that Bud was talking about. If is attached to the studs.
> All header must be supported with bairing points to the foundation
> When cutting those outside studs just remove 9 1/4" to slide the header in.
> Sorry if I didn't make this clear in the earlier posts.



Neal, let me clarify-
 Here's what the structure is right now:


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## Lev

As you can see, all the studs have already been cut.
The studs that have been cut were carrying no load, and as it turns out, were not extending down (or up) too far.

The base of the window is 4x4, since there are no studs to support the middle of it.
Is that sufficient?

Do you see an issue with this structure lasting and holding the window or any weight that's placed above? (provided that I will extend studs from the header up to continue the ones that have been cut)


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## bud16415

With the location of the bay below all the load had to be carried around before for the life of the home on the bottom. At the top any load has to be carried over, around and down thru the outer most studs that's what the header does. The 4x4 on the bottom has to just hold the weight of the window. 

On the top I would have as Neal suggests run them from header all the way up or add some new ones now or some blocks to the new plate. 

Bottom line is its worked for many years with less support and being the gable end of the house isn't seeing the kind of weight the load bearing wall is. 

Sometimes framing in these old places isn't real pretty and doesn't end up looking textbook. You get a feel as you're going what needs beefed up and a little over framing is better than under framing. 

Also keep in mind where your 16" centers are falling from whatever side your drywall will start at. The middle ones can be off but you need something at the 48" if you are running sheets up and down.

Make sure the sheeting is all attached well to the new framing.

I think you should be fine. Your work looks good so far. Thanks for sharing     Looking forward to seeing more. Showing a project like this to the world isn't easy and it will help a lot of people going forward I'm sure. 


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## nealtw

Your drawing makes it clear. Looks good.
The two peiceas of header want to be nailed togethe 3 nails every 16", put them in seperatly so you can screw to the sheeting from the first one .


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## Lev

Good morning,

Thanks again for all the great advice and confidence thus far. It's been a huge help.
The windows should be arriving any day now. In the meantime I've been focusing on other parts of the room. Still need to nail together and screw the window framing.

I have another question, on floor + ceiling. I've stripped the ceiling and (most of the) floor. As it turns out, the ceiling and floor joists extend from one side of the house all the way to the other side. I'm gutting one room, and the joists extend beyond a fake wall.
Those joists are at least 21" on a center. They've already started bellying down. I want to sister or even triple sister them, but I can't fully do it without gutting the adjacent room. I was thinking about resting the sister joists on the support on the end that is visible to me, and bolting them to the existing joist as far as I can as work. Picture below.

Any thoughts?


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## bud16415

I will start by saying I wouldn&#8217;t do that unless the floor above has some real need for improved strength, and if that&#8217;s the case I would get into gutting the next room and doing it all the way thru the house. That nonbearing wall will add little to the strength.  Chance are it doesn&#8217;t as it&#8217;s been working ok all these years. The 21 on center could be a problem with drywall as will the unevenness. If the only problem is in making a nice flat finished ceiling I would fur the ceiling down running the furring strips on 16&#8221; centers going the other direction. Find the lowest point on the joists and use that as your reference point and shim all the furring down to that point. A water level works great for doing this.


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## Lev

Thanks bud, I need to evaluate whether the ceiling needs that.

The floor of this bedroom does need some additional strength. It already has bellyed down. The floor joists don't seem to be resting on anything other than the side walls, and we're talking about a span of ~20 feet.

What do you think about sistering the floor joists up as far as I can work with, without gutting the next room?


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## bud16415

I don&#8217;t think it will add much strength and will add a lot of weight. It&#8217;s an old house that droop has happened over a long time span IMO


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## nealtw

Unless you can get to the bearing wall you are just adding wheight to the lower floor. Today eighteen foot floor joists are double 2x10s at 12" on center, never see twenties, they move up to engineered floor.  3/4 unsanded tongue and grove will span up the 24 on center joists and so will 5/8 drywall


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## slownsteady

Lev: imho, I would ditch the fisheye lens and post some pictures with a regular camera. The devil is in the details and that camera is not helping. My guess is that we all have a good idea of what the room looks like, so don't be afraid to get close and show us the points that are in question.


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