# Framing on concrete issue



## paulf615 (Jul 20, 2015)

So I need to frame a basement wall but where the concrete floor meets the concrete foundation wall there is a lump of concrete (I tried to draw a picture of what it looks like). So I'm wondering how I would put my bottom plate on with this lump in the way. Also the lump stretches about 3ins away from the wall and is about 1in or 2 high
 VView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Repair1437444975.433571.jpg


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## nealtw (Jul 20, 2015)

Welcome the site. How high and how much does it stick out from the wall?


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## paulf615 (Jul 20, 2015)

Sticks out bout 3 to 3 1/2 in in some areas and its bout 2 ins high. I also need as much space as possible so I'd prefer to not have to build the wall a couple inches out.


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## nealtw (Jul 20, 2015)

Sorry after asking I saw you did give that info.
Does it look like some one tried to add some for water proffing or something or was this just slopy floor work.


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## paulf615 (Jul 20, 2015)

I did have a construction guy look at it and he said it looked liked there had been previous water damage so it must have been through water proofing


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## nealtw (Jul 20, 2015)

Well that would be an armature way of waterproofing because it wouldn't work. It it was added it should chip out fairly easy. But if you are not up for that, there are ways to hang the wall. Either way if you are finishing you want to be sure you don't have a water problem.
Are you going all the way to the ceiling or just high enough to hide a shorter section of wall?


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## slownsteady (Jul 20, 2015)

You could chip it out a bit, but I've seen it recommended to leave a gap behind the wall in a basement. Although we all want as much floor space as possible, maybe this could work in your favor. Purely my unprofessional observation.


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## nealtw (Jul 20, 2015)

We build a 2x4 wall, that does not touch the wall, this would interfear.


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## slownsteady (Jul 20, 2015)

nealtw said:


> We build a 2x4 wall, that does not touch the wall, this would interfear.



too much of a gap?


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## paulf615 (Jul 20, 2015)

I would consider chipping it away. I also have a grinder. Is there a blade I can put on it to grind away the concrete?
As for the water problems. When I bought the condo there has been no water but I am using water proof building supplies for the bottom part of the wall just in case. Also I do plan on putting up a full wall all the way to the ceiling


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## paulf615 (Jul 20, 2015)

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Repair1437448123.835953.jpg


Here's a low quality shot of the room but as you can see to the left is where the issue is


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## nealtw (Jul 20, 2015)

So the area at the top of the wall should be sealed somewhat as a fire stop.
What is done here is The plate on top of the conrete is 2x6 and we add 2 2x4s. One tight against the original plate and one tight to that. That is the top plate of the wall and with a eight inch foundation you new wall i one inch away from the concrete wall. That should get you far enough away to clear any bumps in the wall, although sometime we have to skinny a stud to get clearence.
Using this method and if the upstairs is sq. so is the basement Just level down from the top plate to the floor to set the bottom plate.

I would leave the concrete lumps there, build the rest of the walls that have no lumps then in that section raise your bottom plate 3 1/2 inches and built that wall. You can then cut a 45* off the side of a 2x4 and place it under the bottom plate. Then pin a treated peice to the concrete wall right beside a stud so you can find plumb for the wall and tag it to the block on the wall.


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## nealtw (Jul 20, 2015)

Ya, can't make it out.


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## paulf615 (Jul 20, 2015)

Haha tried my best, understood maybe half of that


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## nealtw (Jul 20, 2015)

Peice by peice, ask the questions.


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## paulf615 (Jul 20, 2015)

Well first the ceiling is all closed off so  I can't see any of the above floor joists or the top of the concrete wall. So how do I know where to attach the top plate to.


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## nealtw (Jul 20, 2015)

Have got an interior wall? then you could measure over from that in two places to get a straight wall. Your firestopping has been looked after already.


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## paulf615 (Jul 20, 2015)

No there's no interior walls. It's just a room with a concrete floor and four concrete walls then a ceiling. It's also not that big because its the basement of a condo. It's roughly 23ft x 14ft


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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

The walls are roughly straight but the floor is all wavey


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## slownsteady (Jul 21, 2015)

paulf615 said:


> Haha tried my best, understood maybe half of that



Yeah, Neal speaks Canadian.


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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

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Here's the rest of the pics I have of the place if they help


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## nealtw (Jul 21, 2015)

You have a door in sight, do you have stairs, we are hoping they are square to each other or we choise which one we want to use.
At the corners of the wall with the door measure out 4 1/2 inches from both wall in both corners and put a chaulk line across in front of the door. Then check the distance from the line to the door at both sides of the door. Move one end of the line out untill it lines up the door straight.


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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

What will this accomplish exactly?


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## slownsteady (Jul 21, 2015)

@paul: how are you getting around the pipe? What diameter is it?


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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

Well the pipe is about 5inches from the concrete wall so when using two by fours I'm able to build the wall behind the pipe and I'm just going to leave the pipe exposed


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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

That's another reason why I don't want to have to bring the wall too far off the concrete wall


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## nealtw (Jul 21, 2015)

Yup, these guys didn't make it easy.
How wide are the stairs?
With a straight 2x4 and a level, level down from the stair stringer and mark the floor. Pull a chaulk line across that spot and the edge of the stringer at the floor, stretch it out longer and snap a line. Check the measurement from that line to the wall behind the stairs. Is it straight? Better would be to move the line 1" away so the stringer dosn't interfear with the string.


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## slownsteady (Jul 21, 2015)

sounds like a plan. Make sure you have clearance at top and bottom to get a plumb wall. Also check in several places along the pipe to be sure that the clearance doesn't vary too much.


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## nealtw (Jul 21, 2015)

paulf615 said:


> That's another reason why I don't want to have to bring the wall too far off the concrete wall



That can be boxed afterward and made to look nice.


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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

Well if ur trying to find the straightness of the concrete wall why not hold a line about one inch away from the wall at the two ends of the wall then you can see how close the string is to the wall at the center


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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

nealtw said:


> That can be boxed afterward and made to look nice.



Ya that was my plan for parts of the pipe


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## nealtw (Jul 21, 2015)

You want your walls straight with fixed objects that can't be moved, like doors and stairs.


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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

Well how would you know that those fixed objects are straight


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## nealtw (Jul 21, 2015)

With a straight 2x4 and a level, level down from the stair stringer and mark the floor. Pull a chaulk line across that spot and the edge of the stringer at the floor, stretch it out longer and snap a line. Check the measurement from that line to the wall behind the stairs. Is it straight? Better would be to move the line 1" away so the stringer dosn't interfear with the string
At the corners of the wall with the door measure out 4 1/2 inches from both wall in both corners and put a chaulk line across in front of the door. Then check the distance from the line to the door at both sides of the door. Move one end of the line out untill it lines up the door straight.

I doubt they are straight but it is worth looking at to see if it attainable. As one is the side and the other is the end and if they meet we can check them for square.


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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

Ok currently I can't check those measurements and its late where I am so I will get back to this within the next few days and let u know


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## nealtw (Jul 21, 2015)

If the funace is in the way you can transfer that line close to the other wall and where the two lines meet you can check for square. The formula is 3,4,5 or 6,8,10 or 9,12,15 the bigger the better. You measure from the intersection 9ft on one line and 12 ft on the other. Then distance across those two points should be 15ft


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## nealtw (Jul 21, 2015)

paulf615 said:


> Ok currently I can't check those measurements and its late where I am so I will get back to this within the next few days and let u know



Fair enough , later.


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## nealtw (Jul 21, 2015)

slownsteady said:


> Yeah, Neal speaks Canadian.



Hey ah...........


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## beachguy005 (Jul 21, 2015)

I'm curious as to what your construction plan actually is.  I don't know what you're trying to accomplish but I'm wondering if it can be done by another means, such as attaching the studs directly to the wall.


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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

Ok so here's a little back story that might help. Fist I am 17 and have spent three years in a construction shop in school. I know most of the basics but this project is defiantly going to be one of my biggest projects.
The condo itself belongs to my older sister and brother. My brother is giving me 1000$ to finish the basement. So I took the offer to add to my expirence and to try something challenging. Now keep in mind I am going to be doing this project without a permit but I want to do it as officially as possible.
Now the basement isn't the best quality and there was defiantly previous water damage but there is no current water problem and its actually pretty dry. You enter the basement through a set of stairs and under the stairs is a water furnace and a heat furnace this is also where they have the dryer and washer. There is also an uninsulated door that leads up to a bulkhead. Now the walls are concrete all the way up to the finished ceiling and the concrete floor is no where near to level or straight. I included a diagram of the room and all the pictures I currently have of it.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Repair1437497607.475221.jpg


So I also had my uncle come in and look at it (he is an experienced construction manager). He told me to do the following-
Frame the walls using normal wood but make the bottom plate pressure treated. He told me to frame a room around the laundry area (including the furnace an the water heater). He also wanted me to frame a closet at the end of the stairs to encase the gas meter and the electrical panel. He told me not to worry about the pipe that runs across the wall because it will end up visible in the final result. As for the door he told me it was not a normal door size and I would have to take out the door and just reframe a better sized door in front of it. As for the floor (which Is very uneven and not even close to level) he told me to put down some self leveling compound in the lower spots after I have framed the walls. However he did notice the bump where the floor meets the concrete wall (this bump is present in most of the floor to wall junctions besides maybe one wall) and he told me to just lay the plate down over it. He told me those things along with what type of insulation and sheet rock to use. so I'm not really understanding how to build around this lump and that's what i was trying to ask in my original post. I was just thinking of trying to cut the shape of the bump into a two by four and trying to do that but that seems far too difficult especially since the floor is also all wavy . Some one recommended earlier to just chisel away at the lump (I have a grinder I can also use) and I personally think that would be the best way to go if it will cause no problems. So any questions comments or suggestions?


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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

This is where the walls will goView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Repair1437499838.326404.jpg


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## beachguy005 (Jul 21, 2015)

You could cut the concrete out to get a plumb wall and level floor at that area but I think, as your uncle pointed out, it would be easier to frame over it.
I would think the easiest way to figure it is to angle the bottom plate to maybe 45 degrees, or whatever fits over that fill, and cut the stud ends to fit.  Think of it as if you were building a wall at a right angle to cathedral ceiling rafters.  The top plate would be pitched the angle of the rafters and the tops of the studs would be cut at angles to attach to the plate.
You're doing the same except...upside down.


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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

Ya that was my original plan but I just thought it would be a bit time consuming but I got time. I have another question. The floor is all wavy and there is like a 2.5 in difference in some of the spots sorta like the line in the picture I included. I was thinking of just tracing the contour on to one of my plates and kind of feathering out the difference View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Repair1437527412.611100.jpg


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## nealtw (Jul 21, 2015)

Have you thought about leveling the floor, it would have to be done in layers
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYuSOH0IP7k[/ame]


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## beachguy005 (Jul 21, 2015)

I would mount the plate level.  All the cuts for the studs would be the same.  If they want the floor level, I would do that first.


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## nealtw (Jul 21, 2015)

If you pin the plate down (wet lumber) it will take the shape of the floor within reason. But 2" over a short distance would be asking to much.


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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

Ya I considered It but with such a difference in the floor it can get real pricy. My uncle said to just fill the really low spots after I'm done framing.


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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

beachguy005 said:


> I would mount the plate level.  All the cuts for the studs would be the same.  If they want the floor level, I would do that first.



How do I mount the plate level


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## nealtw (Jul 21, 2015)

I would do some leveling first. When we do this we run into basements that are never quit level.  We pin the plate to the high spots and cut each stud to fit. We then install the studs with top and bottom plate in place.
To pin the plate down we drill a 3/16" hole add 2 peices of tie wire and drive a 3" galvinized nail in. For a more level floor we use the gun that shoots the nail in with a 22 shot.


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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

I have a budget on the basement so I can't completely level out the entire room because of how expensive it would end up being.
So do you think I should double up on the bottom plates so I can get around that lump with one then have a full one to nail the studs to


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## nealtw (Jul 21, 2015)

How much of the wall has these lumps?


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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

Well there are three walls I have to frame up against. The wall with the door has the lumps and the wall adjacent to that has it but the wall opposite the wall with the door doesn't. So 3 walls 2 have the lumps


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## nealtw (Jul 21, 2015)

So, is it continuous or are there more flatter spots between the lumps.


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## paulf615 (Jul 21, 2015)

The bumps get smaller but still there


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## nealtw (Jul 22, 2015)

Then I will go back to what I suggested yesterday, I will try to explain it differently.
Build a curtain wall that hangs from the ceiling and does not quit reach the bumps. attach blocks to the concrete wall right beside some studs. Level the wall and nail the studs to the blocks on the wall.
Now you have a wall attached to the ceiling and the concrete wall a few inches from the floor. Now you can scribe a 2x4 standing on it's side  to fit to the floor some carving on the back maybe to clear the lumps.


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## paulf615 (Jul 22, 2015)

Ok I think I understand now but what's the point of putting in the piece underneath if the wall is already secure. Also wouldn't the gap between the bottom of my hanging wall and the concrete floor very significantly. Maybe so significantly that the thickness of the two by four wouldn't fill the gap


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## nealtw (Jul 22, 2015)

2x4 on edge is 3 1/2 inches high. It would be backing for the drywall and floor molding at the floor and if it was still a little off the floor , it wouldn't hurt but you could use a 2x6.


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## paulf615 (Jul 22, 2015)

Ok that makes sense. Just a couple more questions. Should I put the blocking like every other stud? And does anything need to be anchored to the floor or am I just securing that under piece to the bottom plate?


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## nealtw (Jul 22, 2015)

If the blocks on the wall are low, one about every four feet should do it but you can judge that when you build it. The 2x4 at the bottom want to be stiff enough so you can nail to it. Perhaps a cant strip behind the 2x4 would give it more support. A cant strip is a 2x2 ripped length way on the 45*, that would clear the lumps on the floor.


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## paulf615 (Jul 22, 2015)

K I got it. ill try this method and if I have any other questions ill message you. So long for now


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## nealtw (Jul 22, 2015)

Good luck......................


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## bud16415 (Jul 22, 2015)

paulf615 said:


> This is where the walls will goView attachment 9496


 

How do you get into the dryer with the wall there?


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## paulf615 (Jul 22, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> How do you get into the dryer with the wall there?



Ya that's just where the dryer was positioned when we bought the condo. Stupid. right? So when I end up doing the project in going to switch the washer and dryer positions.


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## paulf615 (Jul 22, 2015)

Very surprised you noticed that


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## nealtw (Jul 22, 2015)

paulf615 said:


> Very surprised you noticed that



You can't hide anything from this bunch.:trophy:


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## bud16415 (Jul 23, 2015)

paulf615 said:


> Very surprised you noticed that


 

I noticed the dryer location I think because the house we bought was set up with the dryer to the left of the washing machine. All dryer doors open left to right and its a pain putting damp stuff in the dryer when the door is sticking out in the way. I had to switch ours around also. 
Make sure there is enough room to get the washer and dryer out of the room. If your layout is to scale the furnace and water heater look like they are close and they wont fit. 

What you learn in school is all the textbook ways things are supposed to be. New construction and everyone following the plan. What you are now learning is what reality is really like and how you have to think outside the box. There are many ways to get around that messy floor problem and one is to remove the lumps. I think I would work around it and here is what I would do. For a bottom plate use a PT 4x4 take your saw and set it to 45 and rip a 2x2 chamfer down the length to clear the lump. Use a 2x4 top plate and cut each stud to be a tap in fit and screw it all together. Do the vapor barrier and all the rest as recommended above first.


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## nealtw (Jul 23, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> I noticed the dryer location I think because the house we bought was set up with the dryer to the left of the washing machine. All dryer doors open left to right and it&#8217;s a pain putting damp stuff in the dryer when the door is sticking out in the way. I had to switch ours around also.
> Make sure there is enough room to get the washer and dryer out of the room. If your layout is to scale the furnace and water heater look like they are close and they won&#8217;t fit.
> 
> What you learn in school is all the textbook ways things are supposed to be. New construction and everyone following the plan. What you are now learning is what reality is really like and how you have to think outside the box. There are many ways to get around that messy floor problem and one is to remove the lumps. I think I would work around it and here is what I would do. For a bottom plate use a PT 4x4 take your saw and set it to 45 and rip a 2x2 chamfer down the length to clear the lump. Use a 2x4 top plate and cut each stud to be a tap in fit and screw it all together. Do the vapor barrier and all the rest as recommended above first.



Bud, Not bad if the floor was reasonably flat but your 4x4 would have to be scribed to fit the floor before you angle cut it for the lumps.
I have never run into lumps like this but we do run into sewer pipes running along side that wall all the time. It may runn along the ceiling or close to the floor are anywhere in between. We can ask the plumbers to come back and move it but that takes time and still leaves a pipe somewhere to deal with so we build walls much like I suggested with out much talk about it. Just build around things and make it look good.


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