# Knob and tube and plaster walls



## jennype (Jan 26, 2013)

1926 2 story home needs complete rewiring of knob and tube.  There is a crawl space and attic.  First electrician called said to gut all plaster and start from studs.  I don't want to lose all the plaster.  

Possible?  Wonder what the ballpark figure would be to rewire with panel a 2900sft 2 story?  Not including any wall repair.


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## oldognewtrick (Jan 26, 2013)

Jenny, if you could post a location, pics of the house inside and out, pics of the existing service it would help a lot.


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## JoeD (Jan 26, 2013)

That guy is not a rewire electrician. He is new house installer. Find someone who has experience in rewiring old homes. There is no need to gut the entire house the rewire it. Houses are so different there is no way to get a realistic estimate over the internet.


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## CallMeVilla (Jan 26, 2013)

You can cut-in openings and sections where wiring is needed instead of destroying all the plaster.  The repair cost will be cut significantly and the electricians can still do what needs to be done.

You will want a new grounded service panel upgraded to 200A  ....  dedicated circuits to kitchen and laundry ...  fully grounded and circuit protected with GFCI  ...  receptacles for modern electronics (may as well bury a pair of HDMI cables for your big screen TV)  ...  ceiling fan boxes ... recessed lighting in kitchen and bathrooms  ...  20A and 220A receptacles/circuits in garage for shop tools  ...  

THAT would be a fun project.


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## Wuzzat? (Jan 26, 2013)

Not knowing anything else, half the time the cost will be between $3 & $12 per sq. ft.


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## speedy petey (Jan 27, 2013)

With a crawl and attic it CAN be done without damaging pretty much any plaster. That is IF your guy is skilled at remodel work.
NO ONE can give you an accurate estimate without seeing the job in person. Don't be shocked if someone will only do it time & material.


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## jwest (Feb 6, 2013)

Jennype, I had the same problem and gutted most of my downstairs for the new wiring per the electrician. I do not want to do that upstairs however and have not been able to find an electrician that will do it. One told me he would have done the whole house but will not come in and work after another electrician has started. I'm still looking.


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## speedy petey (Feb 7, 2013)

If you gut the whole downstairs that will give him access to the upstairs. Did he not want to do a bit of snaking???
Maybe he was one of those "new work only" guys? 

I am also not a big fan of coming in after someone else. I have turned jobs down because of it. Usually if the existing work was garbage.


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## jwest (Feb 7, 2013)

I understand but what am I supposed to do now that the first guy is out of the picture? Yeah, my mistake for getting a 'new work only' guy, wish I had known that.


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## speedy petey (Feb 8, 2013)

Maybe call a few more electricians? The "new work only" guys are few and far between, since new work is very scarce these days. I'm not sure how big of a town you live in, but I'm sure there is more than two electricians within working distance.


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## Wuzzat? (Feb 8, 2013)

Like in Joplin, 10 mi. distant.
http://www.yellowpages.com/joplin-mo/electricians


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## nealtw (Feb 8, 2013)

A friend of mine found the guy to do the job on a three story house with k&t. He removed all the old wire and rewired the whole house with very little dammage to the plaster. The inspector wouldn't pass it untill he could see the wire and staples.


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## Wuzzat? (Feb 8, 2013)

nealtw said:


> A friend of mine found the guy to do the job on a three story house with k&t. He removed all the old wire and rewired the whole house with very little dammage to the plaster. The inspector wouldn't pass it untill he could see the wire and staples.


Do you have a house rewire cost, based on either sq. ft. or # of outlets?  I can always use more samples.


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## nealtw (Feb 8, 2013)

If you get someone to quote a job like that, you wouldn't hire him because he's either overpriced or a fool. 

I forgot to mention, that after tearing their house apart for the inspector a lawyer said the contractor could have certified it with an affidavid. I don't know if that would have worked but it is something tothink about.


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## Wuzzat? (Feb 8, 2013)

nealtw said:


> If you get someone to quote a job like that, you wouldn't hire him because he's either overpriced or a fool.
> *A*
> 
> I forgot to mention, that after tearing their house apart for the inspector a lawyer said the contractor could have certified it with an affidavid. I don't know if that would have worked but it is something tothink about.
> *B*


*A* Some percent would be overpriced and/or a fool but that is what I"m trying to determine.  
Do you have a price?  Riding on it is a virtual free beer for you.  

*B* You'd be surprised how many people become mute when they are put under oath.  Or they plead the Fifth.

Contractors agree to "furnish and install"; that's about it.  The risk of what they do actually working is taken on by the HO.


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## JoeD (Feb 8, 2013)

nealtw said:


> A friend of mine found the guy to do the job on a three story house with k&t. He removed all the old wire and rewired the whole house with very little dammage to the plaster. The inspector wouldn't pass it untill he could see the wire and staples.



He should have escalated it to a higher power. There is no code reason to staple fished wires. I don't know the section but code specifically lists fishing in finished wall as acceptable.


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## speedy petey (Feb 9, 2013)

JoeD said:


> He should have escalated it to a higher power. There is no code reason to staple fished wires. I don't know the section but code specifically lists fishing in finished wall as acceptable.


I was scrolling down to post the same thing. 
Sounds like yet another overzealous inspector who is not up on some very basic codes.


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## speedy petey (Feb 9, 2013)

_*334.30(B) Unsupported Cables.* Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be permitted to be unsupported where the cable:    

(1) Is fished between access points through concealed spaces in finished buildings or structures and supporting is impracticable._


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## nealtw (Feb 9, 2013)

He also said things like " you may have damaged the cable pulling past sharp objects".
(overzealous) is about the kindest discripsion I have herd for this guy.


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## Wuzzat? (Feb 9, 2013)

nealtw said:


> " you may have damaged the cable pulling past sharp objects".


How would you logically argue this point?  
There *are* sharp objects inside walls but maybe this kind of cable damage rarely happens, even with Murphy's Law.
Maybe when it does a CB trips and so the HO immediately knows there is something wrong.



BTW, on bidding, sq. feet and outlets: a contractor should always visit the site before bidding but once the bid is accepted then it and the sq. ft. and the number of outlets is historical data.

I guess my assumption with these numbers is that the recent past can be used to predict the near future to some level of certainty.  This isn't The Stock Market.


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## speedy petey (Feb 9, 2013)

Wuzzat? said:


> How would you logically argue this point?
> There *are* sharp objects inside walls but maybe this kind of cable damage rarely happens, even with Murphy's Law.
> Maybe when it does a CB trips and so the HO immediately knows there is something wrong.


Regardless of Murphy's Law, the inspector's requests are NOT code required and ARE absurd.





Wuzzat? said:


> BTW, on bidding, sq. feet and outlets: a contractor should always visit the site before bidding but once the bid is accepted then it and the sq. ft. and the number of outlets is historical data.
> 
> I guess my assumption with these numbers is that the recent past can be used to predict the near future to some level of certainty.  This isn't The Stock Market.


How many different kinds of homes have you worked on? Are you aware of all the different kinds of obstacles and hidden troubles one can encounter doing "old work"? 
I have worked in pretty much every kind of home, and I can tell you it is NOT easy to accurately bid on old work unless you know the construction of a home intimately. Anyone who bids a firm price on a job like this is most certainly going to C(his)A.


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## Wuzzat? (Feb 9, 2013)

speedy petey said:


> Regardless of Murphy's Law, the inspector's requests are NOT code required and ARE absurd.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So the strategy is to not get into likelihoods but just say "not req'd by code." or "Is it req'd by code?"

Even on time & materials the rewiring will eventually be done at some total lump sum cost to the HO. Yes, the contractor will and should increase his price to cover contingencies, risks both foreseen and unforeseen, misrepresentations, acts of God, etc..  
That's all in the number I'm looking for.  
The forum lurkers and repliers can decide for themselves how valid this method is.

Like I said, getting these numbers is like pulling teeth.
I'm not asking for bank account numbers, here. . .


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## speedy petey (Feb 9, 2013)

Wuzzat? said:


> So the strategy is to not get into likelihoods but just say "not req'd by code." or "Is it req'd by code?"
> 
> Even on time & materials the rewiring will eventually be done at some total lump sum cost to the HO. Yes, the contractor will and should increase his price to cover contingencies, risks both foreseen and unforeseen, misrepresentations, acts of God, etc..
> That's all in the number I'm looking for.
> ...


Sorry. Your looking for numbers that don't exist...yet. Maybe one of the other sparkies reading this will go into their records and break it down for you. 
I don't price anything by the square foot since this is a misleading way of pricing. You can have a sq/ft price, but then all the extras make that number irrelevant. The only thing I do is usually reverse price new homes to see what the price per ft was. I have been anywhere from roughly $4 to $12 a sq/ft. But this is for NEW construction. To be honest I can't remember the last complete house I re-wired without gutting.


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## Wuzzat? (Feb 10, 2013)

OK, 4 to 12 for new homes.

For rewiring existing homes I have 
max> $7.20
min>	$3.05
5.35	=average

I'd think rewiring would be more costly and that's not what I'm showing.
Can you think of any other possible reasons for this besides "my data is faulty"?


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## nealtw (Feb 10, 2013)

To many variables. 
Plaster with wood lath, plaster with metal lath, drywall with asbestos, insulation type, sawdust or paper in walls. Length of runs, replace the mast or not, changing from mast to underground. You would have to do a chart for all of these things and all the posible combination that could be found.


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## Wuzzat? (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm thinking now that rewiring may not be a high priority for the HO and so the EC cannot ask for as much money, but new houses absolutely need to be wired.

Using stats allows you to summarize all these variables.  
There are also ways to find the contribution of each variable to the final result, and it's called Factor Analysis, which is about the most complicated thing I've ever seen.
"Exploratory factor analysis (EFA) is used to uncover the underlying structure of a relatively large set of variables. . . "


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