# Replacing old light switches



## MikeIsMad (Feb 6, 2017)

I couldnt get a clear picture of all the wires so here is a diagram I created.
This is how it is currently wired. If I connect the new switches without grounds, as the current switch is, none of the switches work.
Someone told me that if there's a red wire that that switch controls an outlet but I'm not sure thats the case (at least not anymore). I've noticed some outlets not working in other rooms as well that are not controlled by switches.
Anyway #1 - I dont know what it controls.
#2 - controls one light
#3 - controls one light


Please help me understand this wiring.


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## nealtw (Feb 6, 2017)

The red wire could be three different things.

Two circuits is one cable

Power to a split outlet, where power to the top or bottom of an outlet is turned on with the switch.

3 way switch,,, two switches to turn on same light. Did one of the old switches have three screws. NO not including the ground 

What was the problem with the old switch if anything.

First you have to find witch wire is bringing in power.

Do you have any thing to test for that.


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## kok328 (Feb 6, 2017)

that can't be right.
all switches are being fed by two separate power sources tied together?
ground is not grounded to anything.
and these are not 3-way switches (per your drawing) so the red wires would not be "travelers".
if it was working before you touched it then a simple switch replacement should have not impact on the operational aspect of the circuit.
ligtht switch with or without ground has no impact on the functionality of the switch.


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## afjes_2016 (Feb 7, 2017)

This is how I see it.
There are four romexs in this box. 
Seems the second one (from the left) is feeding all the switches and also feeding the black on the first romex (left side). All seem to be single pole switches. All neutrals tied together. All grounds tied together. Romex on far left seems to feed receptacles at other boxes. It could be that the receptacles that the romex is feeding from the left is alternated, one hot all the time the next switched or the receptacles are split receptacles where one part of the receptacle is hot all the time and the other part is switched.

Although all grounds should be connected I don't see a reason why this should not work if they were not connected.

The red jumpers are meaningless as they are just extensions and could have been any color.


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## MikeIsMad (Feb 7, 2017)

Thank you for your replies.

I'll have to start off with an embarrassing mistake I made. When I installed the new switches, they were upside down, so when I thought they were on they were actually switched off. Once I turned them around they appear to work, well #3 at least. I did connect a bare wire to each ground and grounded them to the other grounds as well.

To answer all the questions. 
None of the switches had 3 wires and they were working just wanted to change these old outlets that look even worse behind new plates. 
And the ground is grounded to the box with a screw in the back that I forgot to illustrate.
I do have a voltmeter but never know what setting to put it on.
However #1 - I tried to find a connected outlet to no avail. I suspect that if I pull out the outlets that one of them will have a red wire going to it, but I dont know what that would mean. #2 controls and entry way light and I just replaced the light. The light wouldn't come on every time and sometimes have to play with the switch for it work and then it only stays on for a few minutes then shuts off. The switch also felt a little loose, so I'll admit that I thought the culprit was a bad switch. However it seems that maybe the light fixture if bad. #3 controls a porch light that is working now. 

Maybe someone can help me with this voltometer? It seems I'll need to replace the light to make sure that that is the culprit, but I'm also hoping to find the source of the power and what switch #1 controls. If it no longer controls anything then, I'd prefer just cancel it. Also I have some wiring issue in some bedrooms, so I'm hoping this understanding would help me diagnose those issues as well.


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## nealtw (Feb 7, 2017)

With the meter set on AC 120 volts or above
Black wire goes to ground and find the live wire with the red lead.


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## MikeIsMad (Feb 8, 2017)

ok I did a little testing with the voltmeter. I've gathered that each group of wires must be referred to as a Romex. If we label them from left to right: A, B, C & D. Then the source if from black wire on C. B goes to the entry way light (switch 2) and D goes to patio light (Switch 3).
So that leaves A (switch 1). 

These switches are right when you walk in the house into the entry way  and living area. Only 4 outlets in this area and they all work rather the switch is up or down. I tried to rewire do that I'm no longer using the switch, but anytime I try rewiring it, most other outlets dont work including ceiling fan and light.

I pulled out one of the outlets that must be somehow connected to this switch. It has 2 wires of each connected to a jumper to the outlet, so I'm guess that the power then goes to a different outlet? Its has (Red, White, Black & ground).

Right now I wired the switch #1 the way it was and all outlets are working as they should.


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## nealtw (Feb 8, 2017)

Look at the outlets that have red and black going to them. there is a little joiner between the screws that have been removed. So half the outlet should work all the time and the other half only works with the switch.
So the red and black wires in the switch box, one should be connected to the live wire and the other to the switch.


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## MikeIsMad (Feb 8, 2017)




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## nealtw (Feb 8, 2017)

http://ask-the-electrician.com/switched-outlet.html


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## Snoonyb (Feb 8, 2017)

The photo is of a switched outlet and should be controled by switch A, on the left.


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## nealtw (Feb 8, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> The photo is of a switched outlet and should be controled by switch A, on the left.



The tab between the screws needs to be removed.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 8, 2017)

nealtw said:


> The tab between the screws needs to be removed.



The top photo is the hot side and the bridge is severed.


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## nealtw (Feb 8, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> The top photo is the hot side and the bridge is severed.



Take a closer look.


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## JoeD (Feb 8, 2017)

The tab is NOT severed in the photo I am looking at in post #9.
A few other issue that need addressing.
1. The bare exposed wire is too much. The insulation should go tight against the bottom of the receptacle.
2. Back stab connections(the little holes) are a common source of failure. I strongly suggest moving the wires to the screw terminals.
3. Why do you have an aluminum ground when the rest of  the wires are copper?


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## Snoonyb (Feb 8, 2017)

nealtw said:


> Take a closer look.



It appears severed to me, and besides which, from post #7;"Right now I wired the switch #1 the way it was and all outlets are working as they should."


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## nealtw (Feb 8, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> It appears severed to me, and besides which, from post #7;"Right now I wired the switch #1 the way it was and all outlets are working as they should."



Yeah, both tabs look the same to me, so we can agree to disagree, I guess.

Hopefully the OP comes back and tells us.


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## inspectorD (Feb 8, 2017)

I am not seeing a severed tab either...

Back stabbing as it is called is always a source for failure..and fires..
I also agree  with what was said, Just switch to the screw tabs and be done.


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## nealtw (Feb 8, 2017)

We also see aluminum ground wire, newer wire will be copper, if you find them in the same box, they should not be twisted together they would be better screwed to the box separately.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 8, 2017)

nealtw said:


> Yeah, both tabs look the same to me, so we can agree to disagree, I guess.
> 
> Hopefully the OP comes back and tells us.



Agreed. Aluminum was used in some romex as a grnd. conductor as a definer, for a while, as I remember.


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## nealtw (Feb 8, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Agreed. Aluminum was used in some romex as a grnd. conductor as a definer, for a while, as I remember.



We have lot's of houses built in the 60s & 70s with aluminum wiring, real problems when home owners mix the 2, they corrode really bad when mixed.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 8, 2017)

Some romex mfg. used aluminum in some romex as a grnd. conductor as a definer, for a while when they were transitioning to all copper.

The problem with connecting copper to Aluminum is not correctly following the process, or taking the time and that's where the failures occur.


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## MikeIsMad (Feb 9, 2017)

Thanks again for all the replies.

I don't think the tabs are severed. I'll do some more testing this weekend when I have a bit more time but seems that possibly just remove that tab and the switch will then be working correctly.

As far as the aluminum grounds, this house was built in the 70's. I'm assuming that replacing with copper wouldn't be an easy task. So in the future, should I ground with copper wire attached directly to the screw in the junction box?


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## Snoonyb (Feb 10, 2017)

MikeIsMad said:


> I don't think the tabs are severed. I'll do some more testing this weekend when I have a bit more time but seems that possibly just remove that tab and the switch will then be working correctly.



The only tab to sever is the hot side, where the black and red conductor are connected.

While you are at it, and have the breaker off, use a small straight blade screwdriver inserted next to where the conductors are plugged into the back of the recp, to remove them and reattach them under the screws.

DO NOT sever the neutral tab or the switched, (red) halve of the recp. can not be energized by the switch. 



MikeIsMad said:


> As far as the aluminum grounds, this house was built in the 70's. I'm assuming that replacing with copper wouldn't be an easy task. So in the future, should I ground with copper wire attached directly to the screw in the junction box?



The existing grnd. will work as connected.

Connecting the grnd. conductor to the box is known as bonding and it's something to keep in mind for future work.


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## slownsteady (Feb 10, 2017)

I think most of the confusion ( disagreement ) in this thread is caused by the first post, so let's reset a little bit. I put additional letters on the sketch so that the cables are lettered in caps (A,B,C,D,) and even the wire nuts are labeled (a-f) so that we can use a common language.
If cable (romex) 'D' was the hot wire (hot line), then nothing else would work unless the #3 switch was on. Same for cable 'C'. So the hot line must be either A or B. My bet would be on cable A. 
The three wire configuration (black, white, red) only suggests that the power comes from somewhere beyond the switch. It does not necessarily mean that an outlet is involved. This can be easily tested by disconnecting wire nut "f" and testing. There should only be one hot wire in that group.
I wouldn't be breaking off any tabs until I know the layout of this box.

Rather than try to suggest answers for all the various debates and questions in a single post, I'll stop here, and we can tackle this in a logical way.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 10, 2017)

I'm not at all confused, this is typical switched recep. wiring.


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## slownsteady (Feb 10, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> I'm not at all confused, this is typical switched recep. wiring.


Can you prove it? or, better yet, how can the OP prove it?


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## Snoonyb (Feb 10, 2017)

He already has.

But for me, it's typical, common practice.


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## slownsteady (Feb 10, 2017)

oh, well then, thread closed.


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## Snoonyb (Feb 10, 2017)

Did you not read post #23?


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## slownsteady (Feb 11, 2017)

I did. And the OP has not reported whether that was the fix....or not.


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## nealtw (Feb 11, 2017)

MikeIsMad said:


> Thanks again for all the replies.
> 
> I don't think the tabs are severed. I'll do some more testing this weekend when I have a bit more time but seems that possibly just remove that tab and the switch will then be working correctly.
> 
> As far as the aluminum grounds, this house was built in the 70's. I'm assuming that replacing with copper wouldn't be an easy task. So in the future, should I ground with copper wire attached directly to the screw in the junction box?



There are ways to connect copper to aluminum but for just the ground take aluminum to one screw and copper to a different screw.


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## MikeIsMad (Feb 17, 2017)

ok guys. Sorry been a busy week.

I broke off the tab so that outlet has Ground, White, Red, Black and the switch that did nothing before now is now controlling the top outlet. Now it appears to be connected correctly but now I sort of wish it wasn't since my entertainment center it connected to that outlet.


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## nealtw (Feb 17, 2017)

MikeIsMad said:


> ok guys. Sorry been a busy week.
> 
> I broke off the tab so that outlet has Ground, White, Red, Black and the switch that did nothing before now is now controlling the top outlet. Now it appears to be connected correctly but now I sort of wish it wasn't since my entertainment center it connected to that outlet.



Half of it should be live all the time.
You can just add a jumper


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## slownsteady (Feb 17, 2017)

just move the plug to the other socket. That should be live full-time


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## Snoonyb (Feb 17, 2017)

MikeIsMad said:


> ok guys. Sorry been a busy week.
> 
> I broke off the tab so that outlet has Ground, White, Red, Black and the switch that did nothing before now is now controlling the top outlet. Now it appears to be connected correctly but now I sort of wish it wasn't since my entertainment center it connected to that outlet.



Thanks for the clarification.

This alternative evolved from the requirement to have a form of illumination that can be energized when entering a space, the other being a ceiling fixture, rather than stumbling around in a dark space searching for a light.


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