# 20amp Outlet with 15amp Breaker



## AWD_GS (Jan 7, 2016)

I don't know much about electrical but just trying to find an answer on a question that I've been trying to research. Back story is I'm having my whirlpool tub replaced and the 2.1hp motor requires a 20amp gfci outlet for the pump. The wiring for the outlet was already ran prior to me moving in however they only used a standard 15amp outlet which in my opinion should of at least been a gfci. That outlet seems to be tied into one of the lights in the bathroom (which one I don't know). My question is the new outlet (20amp gfci) is installed and hooked up however the breakers for the bathroom are all 15amp breakers.  

My question is can a 20amp gfci be used on a 15amp breaker and will it possibly trip the breaker considering the pump puts out 14.4 amps?


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## nealtw (Jan 7, 2016)

The old outlet was probably protected with the gfci in the bathroom. The breaker sould be 20 amp but that requires the wire to be # 12 rather than the #14 that you likely have now.


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## Sparky617 (Jan 7, 2016)

Putting a 20 AMP GFCI on a 15 amp circuit will not increase the ampacity of the circuit.  It is still a 15 amp circuit.  If the pump motor is running at 14.4 amps and you have other items on the circuit it will certainly trip in time.

Your 15 amp outlet in the bathroom could be downstream of a GFCI outlet in another bathroom or wet location.  It is fairly typical to put bathrooms together and to use a GFCI in the first outlet from the panel to protect everything downstream.

My whirlpool is on a dedicated 20 amp circuit with a GFCI breaker.  I don't have any heaters, just a pump for the jets.  I'd suggest doing the same for yours.


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## slownsteady (Jan 7, 2016)

You are going to want a 20 amp breaker, but you need to determine if the wire is 12 or 14 gauge before anything else.
They are all links in the same chain. A 20 amp breaker should have 12 gauge wire, and a 20 amp outlet. The GFCI isn't _directly _a concern here. Having an overrated outlet won't hurt - except for mistakenly thinking the rest of the circuit can handle the load.

(echoing what was said above. We must have all been typing at the same time)


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## AWD_GS (Jan 7, 2016)

Thanks for the reply guys. That's what I was concerned about. The pump being 14.4 and the breaker only being 15 I figured it would more than likely trip it. It is suggested to run the pump to its own 20amp breaker.  I'll talk to the contractor tomorrow and see if he can add a 20amp single pole gfci breaker to the box.


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## nealtw (Jan 7, 2016)

Have him check wire size, you never know sometimes you can just get lucky.


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## AWD_GS (Jan 7, 2016)

Yea I will but I highly doubt it's 12ga. Everything didn't really seem to be done 100% correctly


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## AWD_GS (Jan 7, 2016)

Talked to the contractor and asked him about the wiring that was in the previous 15amp outlet. He said that the #14 wiring is fine for a 20amp outlet if it's not running heavy duty things like fridge/stove/etc... Not sure how true that is. 

Also questioned about the breaker only being 15amps and he said he wouldn't know until he test the pump with the light on to see if it trips and if it does he can just swap out the 15amp breaker with a 20amp breaker. Not sure if that would take care of the issue. 

My only concern is I don't know much about electrical and I would hate for something to cause a fire. I could just be over thinking everything but I just like to double check to be sure.


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## nealtw (Jan 7, 2016)

The outlet alone makes no difference as I think inside they are the same. And it may work as is but   *NO*  do not let him change the breaker, a twenty amp breaker requires #12 wire.


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## AWD_GS (Jan 7, 2016)

Thanks for the response. Now that you said that he did say if he had to he would run new wires for it so I'm pretty sure it would be #12


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## nealtw (Jan 7, 2016)

If you have things open for an easy run for a new wire, I would have that done now. The unit might work now on a 15 amp breaker but what happens when the motor has a few years on it or you want to upgrade in a few years.
I am suprised he actually put a 20 amp outlet in, who was he triing to fool.


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## AWD_GS (Jan 7, 2016)

What do you mean by that?  The pump says it needs to be run into a 20amp gfci


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## nealtw (Jan 7, 2016)

It may be knew to you but the contractor knows that 20 amp outlet also means #12 wire and 20 amp breaker. If he didn't know that, he shouldn't be involved. Just changing the outlet would not hurt anything but would never have helped anything either.


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## AWD_GS (Jan 7, 2016)

I see what your saying


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## JoeD (Jan 7, 2016)

AWD_GS said:


> Talked to the contractor and asked him about the wiring that was in the previous 15amp outlet. He said that the #14 wiring is fine for a 20amp outlet if it's not running heavy duty things like fridge/stove/etc... Not sure how true that is.
> 
> Also questioned about the breaker only being 15amps and he said he wouldn't know until he test the pump with the light on to see if it trips and if it does he can just swap out the 15amp breaker with a 20amp breaker. Not sure if that would take care of the issue.
> 
> My only concern is I don't know much about electrical and I would hate for something to cause a fire. I could just be over thinking everything but I just like to double check to be sure.



A 14 amp load from the tub would be considered a large load. it is much larger than a fridge.

Changing the breaker is not the answer if the wire is only #14.

If the tub recommends a separate breaker then it should be installed on its own breaker.


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## Kabris (Jan 7, 2016)

Generally a 20A receptacle is only used for heavy duty things, like motors, heavy power tools, etc. As far as your whirlpool is concerned, if the motor is drawing 14.4A, then by Code it must be on a 20A circuit using 12 AWG wire with GFCI protection. Basically the 14 gauge wire you have there now is no good for that motor. You'll need a new 12 gauge wire run to it. I would recommend the new run not be tied into anything else.


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## schlich (Jan 7, 2016)

this is a little off-topic here in we can't use #14 at all 15a must be run in #12 even when code says 15a is #14 here it's just the way the inspector is


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## slownsteady (Jan 7, 2016)

AWD_GS said:


> Talked to the contractor and asked him about the wiring that was in the previous 15amp outlet. He said that the #14 wiring is fine for a 20amp outlet if it's not running heavy duty things like fridge/stove/etc... Not sure how true that is.
> 
> Also questioned about the breaker only being 15amps and he said he wouldn't know until he test the pump with the light on to see if it trips and if it does he can just swap out the 15amp breaker with a 20amp breaker. Not sure if that would take care of the issue.
> 
> My only concern is I don't know much about electrical and I would hate for something to cause a fire. I could just be over thinking everything but I just like to double check to be sure.


Dude, if the contractor told you this with a straight face, i would question everything he says.


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## KULTULZ (Jan 8, 2016)

AWD_GS said:


> Talked to the contractor and asked him about the wiring that was in the previous 15amp outlet. *He said that the #14 wiring is fine for a 20amp outlet if it's not running heavy duty things like fridge/stove/etc..*. Not sure how true that is.


 
 



> Also questioned about the *breaker only being 15amps and he said he wouldn't know until he test the pump with the light on to see if it trips and if it does he can just swap out the 15amp breaker with a 20amp breaker.* Not sure if that would take care of the issue.


 
 



> My only concern is I don't know much about electrical and I would hate for something to cause a fire. I could just be over thinking everything but I just like to double check to be sure.


 
...whew...

Does this "_contractor_" have an electrician's license or has one in his employ? Has anyone read the install manual to see what the manufacturer
instructions are related to installation?

The tub needs to have its' own dedicated 20A circuit(s).

Drawing through #14 from a 20A breaker is just begging for it IMO.


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## AWD_GS (Jan 8, 2016)

Yea I have my concerns as well. It's obvious he didn't read the install instructions. 

I'm going to suggest a #12 wire be ran but that brings up another question then, what do you do with the old #14 wire that's currently there if you run a #12?  Do you trace it back to where it's tied in to remove it completely or can you just "cap" the ends of the wires and leave them in the wall?


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## nealtw (Jan 8, 2016)

As suggested by others, it's time to insist that a *electrician* looks after it.
Let us know what they come up with.


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## AWD_GS (Jan 8, 2016)

Agreed and that's the route I'm going. I've already contacted several. I'm having him wrap up the tile and don't worry about the outlet. I'll have someone come in and run a new line to its own breaker. 

This ordeal has caused nothing but headaches for me but it's a good learning experience for me. I appreciate the advice given and I'm fully taking it. I just wanted to confirm with others who are more familiar with electrical work then me to confirm my suspicions about what I'm being told.


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## JoeD (Jan 8, 2016)

The old #14 can be left capped off in an accessible box. You can't *" just "cap" the ends of the wires and leave them in the wall".*


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## AWD_GS (Jan 8, 2016)

Gotcha that would make more sense I'm just trying to get an understanding as the contractor was saying if he has to run a #12 wire that he would have to trace the current #14 wiring back to where it's connected to and remove all the wiring. I'm not trying to have him rip though all the walls to trace the wire and remove it. 

I don't know my way around wiring that well but I can tell when something doesn't seem right and just need to get feedback from others that do know.  The calls are in the electricians and I'll get this properly resolved. I appreciate all the feedback from everyone confirming my thoughts.


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## jeffmattero76 (Jan 8, 2016)

I thought you said that other lights were on the dame circuit. If so, you cannot simply "cap the wires" unless the tub connection was the last connection on the circuit. Otherwise the other lights will not work.


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## nealtw (Jan 8, 2016)

jeffmattero76 said:


> I thought you said that other lights were on the dame circuit. If so, you cannot simply "cap the wires" unless the tub connection was the last connection on the circuit. Otherwise the other lights will not work.



In that case he would just remove the outlet and join the wires with a wire nuts and install the blank cover.
And welcome to the site.


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## AWD_GS (Jan 8, 2016)

jeffmattero76 said:


> I thought you said that other lights were on the dame circuit. If so, you cannot simply "cap the wires" unless the tub connection was the last connection on the circuit. Otherwise the other lights will not work.




Yes it is apparently tied into some wiring for one of the lights. I don't know how that works so I was just trying to get some feedback so I can sound knowledgable in case he tries to tell me other wise. At this point an electrician is coming in to finish the job so I can have the peace of mind that no fire will happen because of some bad wiring or overloading an outlet/breaker.


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## bud16415 (Jan 8, 2016)

Well if there is other lighting on the #14 you cant disconnect it from the panel. You / they will have to figure out how it is run to the lighting etc and then figure the best way to disconnect it.


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## AWD_GS (Jan 8, 2016)

I don't want it disconnected from the panel just the #14 wire from the old outlet to me closed off and then a new #12 ran from the new outlet to a new 20 amp break so it's on it's own breaker


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## slownsteady (Jan 8, 2016)

There's no reason I can think of where you can't use that #14 circuit for normal use. You just can't use it for the tub. Put a 15 amp outlet on it, and then run a new line with a new box for the tub.


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## AWD_GS (Jan 8, 2016)

I'm done with the whole thing. The mortar bed was not done correctly to fill in the whole footing of the tub like I asked. That coupled with the other things, he's done.


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## nealtw (Jan 8, 2016)

So your contractor is a hack. Or he is not choosy on the people he uses.


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## AWD_GS (Jan 8, 2016)

I'd go with option 1. This isn't the first time that he didn't do what I asked. I'm glad I check the outlet for the pump because he put a standard outlet in again and not a gfci like he said he would. Thankfully I looked at caught it.


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## KULTULZ (Jan 8, 2016)

The light circuit(s) shouldn't be (but can be) on the dedicated 20A bathroom receptacle circuit(s) (the tub being on its' own dedicated 20A circuit) as if the GFCI device trips, you will be suddenly bathing in the dark... :hide:

There is specific code(s) for bath wiring. If there is a lamp that needs to be GFCI protected (say shower lamp), it should be on a GFCI protected circuit (15A or 20A) (OK to put on GFCI protected receptacle circuit). Regular bath lighting does not require it.

Just wondering, did this guy pull permits? 

And don't try to worry much as this happens to a lot of people. Going by code costs money and doesn't seem important to many, but it sure makes sense in the long run.


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## JoeD (Jan 8, 2016)

The old wire does not need to be physically removed. Once it is disconnected from the power at the source box the old wires can left in the walls.


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