# 2 X 4's on top of poured basement wall?t



## papakevin (Jan 10, 2015)

Long story short, new to me house, knew it had a leak in the basement wall once (which the previous owner fixed).  It didn't leak (still doesn't) however the drywall patch job was terrible so figured were issues, so ripped into the drywall 

I'm bringing in professionals to repair the crack with hydraulic cement, so not concerned with it right now. I am however wondering about the overall construction of the house itself. The basement walls are poured. On top of the walls, there is a small 2x4 wall, which is what the main floor joists sit on. Is this standard construction?  Seems a bit shady to me.  Guessing it was done to allow for more headroom in the basement, which has 8' ceiling and is a walkout. 

Should I be concerned?  Photos of wall support and crack attached. 

The previous water issue was likely due to a concrete patio with no slope away from the house. To deal with getting water away, I had a an overhang built on the back of the house. The house itself has 10' ceilings on the main level, so the overhang it built up high so it doesn't block the view out of the back windows. I will likely finish it into a four season room if we keep this house for long. I don't have a finished photo, but attached a picture of the work in progress since I mentioned it. 

Let me know any thoughts you guys have about the small 2x4 wall on top of the poured basement. Thanks. 

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## inspectorD (Jan 11, 2015)

That water could come from anywhere inside the exterior wall and the brick siding. You need a professional that doesn't use hydraulic cement to fix this:help:,and to look into the cause a little deeper. 
Meanwhile you need to know a few more things,
Any idea if there are any weep holes on the exterior brick wall sections?
Where is the exterior soil level in reference to the basement walls?
And besides the exterior patio, is there any other soil pitched towards the home with any kind of drainage to divert it away.

If these are all already taken care of, you could have an exterior weather barrier issue behind the brick wall..and no amount of patch to the exterior of the brick or foundation will fix this issue.
Keep us in the loop.


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## JoeD (Jan 11, 2015)

If the wood wall is above grade there should be no issues with it.


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## bud16415 (Jan 11, 2015)

The wood wall and plate start at the point the brick start on the outside I think. The 2x4 takes part of the poured wall and the other is a shelf for the first course of brick. They wanted the look of the brick starting low on the house and only dug the basement as deep as they could for whatever reason. The short wall was to give head room in the basement. The second floor sits on a 2x4 wall just the same way only longer studs. I am not a builder but I don&#8217;t see any issues with the way things were done. 

I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;m seeing what inspector D is seeing maybe he can explain in more detail. It looks like there was a crack that has been patched and is holding. Is that the crack you want to have repaired again? I see a little staining up above. What is that area made from? Am I correct as to where the exterior grade is related to the inside basement? 

Your new addition how are the flashings being done?


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## joecaption (Jan 11, 2015)

Any wood in direct contact with concrete should have been pressure treated.
Cracks are fixed with epoxy not hydraulic cement.
Any walls built on the inside should not have been in contact with the foundation.
Where does that wire run? If it's to an outside outlet it should have been 20 amp. not 15 amp. and there must be a GFI outlet outside or a GFI breaker inside.
It also should have been sleeved where it went through the wall.


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## nealtw (Jan 11, 2015)

From what I see, prety standard stuff. Regulat wood on concrete OK as long as there is a moisture break between, sill gasket. Foundation just high enough to get you 8" above the ground and the wall inside built with air gap to the concrete.

Problem I do see or suspect it the elevation of the deck. It appears to be above the level of the foundatiuon.

Does the down spout feed into the perimeter drain and is the perimter drain carry all the water away from the house or feed it under the deck.

Any patch on the inside will just close the crack on the inside the crack will still be open to the outsie and there by still absorb water into the concrete and still find a way in.


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## JoeD (Jan 11, 2015)

If the wood plate is the same level as the bricks I think you should be fine. From the lat image it appears the brick begins about a foot up from grade. 8" is the code minimum so you should be fine. Brick and 2x4 starting on the same level is normal.


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## nealtw (Jan 11, 2015)

JoeD said:


> If the wood plate is the same level as the bricks I think you should be fine. From the lat image it appears the brick begins about a foot up from grade. 8" is the code minimum so you should be fine. Brick and 2x4 starting on the same level is normal.



Joe: with the outside photo I tryed to figure where the bottom of the door and to me it apears to be about the level of the bottom of the brick. Now it the joists are 2x10s and you have a one foot wall on top of the concrete, then the deck should be a foot lower??


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## inspectorD (Jan 12, 2015)

Ok guy's..I get where the levels of the brick are, and the flooring Joists starts.
 However the issue we are looking for is the exterior soil level, and the flashing that separates the exterior brick wall, and the wood wall cavities. 
The weep holes, or brick will let water behind that void, and leak into the basement upper wall if they have failed.  
This wall is built all screwed up... anything could be happening as the wall never had an exterior brick shelf to divert the water to the outside.
I think this is leaking at the weather barrier which has a hole, or no flashing at the base.
http://www.bramptonbrick.com/technical/masonry-practices


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## nealtw (Jan 12, 2015)

inspectorD said:


> Ok guy's..I get where the levels of the brick are, and the flooring Joists starts.
> However the issue we are looking for is the exterior soil level, and the flashing that separates the exterior brick wall, and the wood wall cavities.
> The weep holes, or brick will let water behind that void, and leak into the basement upper wall if they have failed.
> This wall is built all screwed up... anything could be happening as the wall never had an exterior brick shelf to divert the water to the outside.
> ...



What is the sheeting on the outside nailed to the studs, or is that concrete?


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## inspectorD (Jan 12, 2015)

The top picture is where you see the water staining, that tells me it is comming in where the concrete foundation , and the brick that sits on that shelf on the outside meet. There is no flashing in that area is what I suspect that kicks the water out on the last course. This is a typical place that is never payed any close attention, yet it is the most important.
Any windows or additions with roofs and dormers are also never done according to industry standards..I find this commonly on leaking brick facades.

http://www.fortifiber.com/pdf/install_guides/Brick_Veneer_Flashing.pdf


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## nealtw (Jan 12, 2015)

inspectorD said:


> The top picture is where you see the water staining, that tells me it is comming in where the concrete foundation , and the brick that sits on that shelf on the outside meet. There is no flashing in that area is what I suspect that kicks the water out on the last course. This is a typical place that is never payed any close attention, yet it is the most important.
> Any windows or additions with roofs and dormers are also never done according to industry standards..I find this commonly on leaking brick facades.
> 
> http://www.fortifiber.com/pdf/install_guides/Brick_Veneer_Flashing.pdf



I am not dissagreeing with anything you say, I just want to know what the bricks are siting on. Did they do some sort of backward ledge. I can think of two possibilies one it was there to lower the floor and then someone said lets raise the basement. The other would be brick was an after thought and a second pore of concrete this would leave a leaky joint that is below ground level.
So I want to wait for more info.:hide:


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## inspectorD (Jan 12, 2015)

nealtw said:


> I am not dissagreeing with anything you say, I just want to know what the bricks are siting on. Did they do some sort of backward ledge. I can think of two possibilies one it was there to lower the floor and then someone said lets raise the basement. The other would be brick was an after thought and a second pore of concrete this would leave a leaky joint that is below ground level.
> So I want to wait for more info.:hide:



Oh sure... now ya tell me..;-)
Yes, the ledge was done backwards in my opinion, and probably like you said, for a sunken floor, Or more likely, to install  large floor truss's that were never used. That is the usual reason for an 18-24 inch dropped ledge. Then the knee wall was built to raise the floor height, and the brick sets on that outside lip because with an 8 inch foundation, the lip would be 4 inches and there is not enough bearing for any joists. Unfortunately...only the builder knows the real reason The bricks are on that outside ledge.. no doubt about it.
But that really has nothing to do with the issue of the leak, thats what I was getting at. Its all flashed wrong, and now impossible to get at.
But I'm with ya.. lets set and wait..;-)


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## nealtw (Jan 13, 2015)

papakevin, did you get lost?


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## papakevin (Jan 14, 2015)

Didn't get lost, but have been covered up with work. Appreciate all the feedback. We are slated to have good weather (meaning above freezing) this weekend, so I should be able to provide some more photos / details on the brick. 

Regarding the crack in the basement, it currently does not leak. It was a previous leak which was patched and appears to be cracking again. I'm going to bring in a guy to do the two part epoxy thing as that sounds like what I need to provide a better fix before the drywall goes back up. 

The outside of the house is all brick and the far side has a walkout basement. The patio shown on the back of the house seems like it was poured as an extension slab for future expansion and never had a pitch away from the foundation (which I'm assuming resulted in the water issue in the basement at some point.)  I had the overhang installed as it seemed to be the best way to keep water off the pad and keep it away from the house. Not the cheapest, but the best. 

After we had purchased the house, we heard from a neighbor there was a fire during construction of it. Not sure if that resulted in a full year down and rebuild or not. My biggest concern is the fact that the entire house appears to be resting on a small 2x4 wall on top of the poured concrete. This seems crazy to me. Yes, the basement does have full height 8' ceilings, but concerned structurally the entire weight of the house is on 2x4's. 

Just as an FYI, some photos of the construction of the roof on the back of the house. The first floor has 10' ceilings, so I had them build it higher to keep the view. 

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## papakevin (Jan 14, 2015)

Here are some brick photos I took this morning on my way into work.  The close up of where the bricks are lower is in the area of the old leak. 

Included a bonus photo of the completed overhang on the back. 

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## bud16415 (Jan 14, 2015)

Many houses are 2x4 construction and all the weight ends up sitting on 2x4&#8217;s. In your case the weight of the brick isn&#8217;t resting on the 2x4&#8217;s only the inner shell with the floors and all the contents. Yes there is a lot of weight on the foundation going thru the studs but I&#8217;m sure they well within their limit.


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## nealtw (Jan 14, 2015)

That gives us more to look at. The 2x4 wall is not a problem. I would bet the slab had a slope before is settled into the mud.
Inspector was talking about the fact that brick will absorb water and it will come out between the brick and the house and there should be a flashing if the brick does not go lower than the wood structure and there should be weep hole every few feet across the bottom and above the windows and doors.


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## inspectorD (Jan 14, 2015)

Yes, just as I suspected.. no weep holes, and the actual flashing is on the wrong side of the wall..
You should not even see that flashing at the bottom of the wall. It actually holds the moisture in... hard to believe, but that is how it works.
Go back to the links I put up so you can see how to do it correctly. http://www.fortifiber.com/pdf/install_guides/Brick_Veneer_Flashing.pdf
Pictures tell the story.:beer:


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## nealtw (Jan 14, 2015)

inspectorD said:


> Yes, just as I suspected.. no weep holes, and the actual flashing is on the wrong side of the wall..
> You should not even see that flashing at the bottom of the wall. It actually holds the moisture in... hard to believe, but that is how it works.
> Go back to the links I put up so you can see how to do it correctly. http://www.fortifiber.com/pdf/install_guides/Brick_Veneer_Flashing.pdf
> Pictures tell the story.:beer:



Now he can't do it correctly, what is the fix?


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## inspectorD (Jan 14, 2015)

nealtw said:


> Now he can't do it correctly, what is the fix?



The fix?.. the fix is never easy. I just had a job just like this, and rows of brick were removed at 4 foot stages,, and the flashing was installed. There used to be water and mold in their living area... now it is all gone, because the water was controlled. This happens all the time actually. Brick facades, need to be flashed at all terminations and transitions. This is why folks need to have a home inspection by a qualified professional. And I'm not tootin my own horn on this, I just want to educate folks on the right way to have something installed.
Find a mason, that understands this issue.. not a guy that puts hydraulic cement on anything.

That overhang is going to help, but the water could come down behind the brick above that area also. Brick absorbs water, just as neal said.
 Good luck.


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## papakevin (Jan 15, 2015)

Does it make sense to try and add in weep holes along the bottom row of bricks in the mortar or will this create issues? I found something online called "Brick Vent" but don't know if that's a real option. 


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## inspectorD (Jan 15, 2015)

Weep holes will help to dry behind the wall. but it may not stop the water that runs behind in heavy rain seasons. 
Something is better than nothing at this point.


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## nealtw (Jan 15, 2015)

Not so sure, normally you would dril thru and hit concrete. In this case you might dig into house wrap and wall, might cause more problems.


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## bud16415 (Jan 15, 2015)

I see an ad on TV here all the time about some company that comes out and drills holes in the mortar joint and injects foam behind the brick. Kind of like this.

I have read pros and cons to this method. 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRkhDl8BR2c[/ame]


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## nealtw (Jan 15, 2015)

bud16415 said:


> I see an ad on TV here all the time about some company that comes out and drills holes in the mortar joint and injects foam behind the brick. Kind of like this.
> 
> I have read pros and cons to this method.
> 
> https://c



You want water to find it way out not trap it in there


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## inspectorD (Jan 15, 2015)

Probably not a good idea with the foam, or any infill. In my experience, when we dont give water a place to go, bad things happen. Remember that any water will find it's way to the interior of the brick, and flow down the backside to drain. If this is not possible, and the water remains in the brick, it could cause a catastrophic failure if it ever freezes. 

Beside that, it was developed in Europe, and these are some of the quotes I found for a wet area.


Cavity masonry walls were introduced on the exposed western coasts of Britain and Ireland in the nineteenth century, to stop wind-driven rain from penetrating to the inside surfaces. They gradually spread to other, dryer, parts of the country, because the air layer trapped in the cavity was found to provide a degree of thermal insulation. Since 1945 this insulation quality has been enhanced by using lightweight blocks, rather than bricks, to build the inner leaf of the wall. But the main reason for building cavity walls has always been to keep the rain out.

Since the 1980s, the Building Regulations have required new houses to be built with insulation material in the cavity. As long as they are built properly, this insulation should not compromise the walls resistance to rain penetration.

In most cases, the insulation is fixed to the inner leaf, leaving a narrow cavity to intercept any rainwater that penetrates the outer brick leaf. This insulation material is usually in the form of rigid foam boards, which are intrinsically waterproof, or semi-rigid mineral-wool or glassfibre batts, where the fibres are aligned vertically so that any penetrating rainwater should drain downwards in the cavity and not have the chance to penetrate across to the inner leaf. This is important, because the Building Research Establishment has found that single-leaf brick walls ALWAYS leak when exposed to wind-driven rain. The leakage occurs at the vertical (or perp) joints between adjacent bricks, because of drying shrinkage in the mortar. It is not a question of poor workmanship; it is an inevitable property of this form of construction.

Many readers with single-leaf brick garages attached to their cavity-walled homes, for example, complain that rainwater penetrates through from the outside when they are subjected to wind-driven rain, resulting in puddles on the garage floor. Well, if the rainwater is penetrating their garage walls, then the same thing will be happening to the brick outer leaves of their living rooms and bedrooms, but as long as the cavities are left clear, the water should run down the inside of the brickwork to foundation level and never be noticed. Until the recent fad for cavity wall insulation took hold, the only times rainwater penetration was a problem was when the steel wall ties were dirty with mortar droppings and/or built sloping downwards from outer leaf to inner leaf, or the cavity itself was blocked at low level with mortar droppings or other debris. In those cases penetrating rainwater could track across the cavity and show up as damp patches on internal decorative surfaces, but the solution was relatively simple  cut out a few bricks and clear the rubbish out of the cavity, or replace the offending wall ties.

Dampness problems caused by cavity wall insulation do not generally occur in houses where the insulation was built-in from new. They happen in houses which were built prior to the 1980s, with clear cavities, which have subsequently been filled (referred to in the industry as retro fill). The material which has attracted most complaints is blown mineral-wool fibre. This material consists of loose fibres which  as the name suggests  are blown in through holes drilled in the brick outer leaf. The manufacturers and installers claim that the material is water-repellant, and that it cannot allow rainwater to penetrate across the cavity. However, my own researches show that  far from being waterproof  it can soak up water like blotting paper. Samples sent to me by readers have been found to hold a startling 243 per cent moisture  ie nearly two and a half times their own weight in water.

I have received dozens of letters and e-mails from readers who say that, following installation of blown mineral-wool fibre, their inside walls have become damp and mouldy, and their homes have become uninhabitable and unsellable. And in every case the installers and their guarantee provider CIGA (the Cavity Insulation Guarantee Agency) has refused to acknowledge that the cavity wall insulation was the cause of their problems. In every case the installers and CIGA have insisted that the dampness problems were due to construction faults in the building (even though these are supposed to be identified by the surveyor prior to installation) or to lifestyle condensation caused by the occupants (even though condensation had not been a problem prior to the CWI).


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## papakevin (Feb 7, 2015)

Here's an update on the crack. 

Ended up getting busy at work, so found a local guy who fixes these things right. I was at work, so didn't get any in progress photos, but here's what he did. 

1) He chipped out the old crack filler and made a V in the concrete wall. 
2) Jack hammered the concrete floor so he could access the rock underneath. 
3) Used the two part grey epoxy stuff to fill the crack completely. 
4) Installed a sheet of plastic material (don't know what) from beyond the top of the crack down to the gravel. This was done so in the event of any additional movement, any water coming in would drain into the rock. 
5) Poured new concrete to seal everything up. 

All in, it cost less than $700 for all the work and it came with a lifetime warranty from the company. I'm pleased with both the work and the price. &#128512;


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## papakevin (Feb 7, 2015)

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## papakevin (Feb 7, 2015)

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## nealtw (Feb 9, 2015)

Seems reasonable enough.


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