# Question for the experts. Roof / Water Heater / Chimney



## bud16415 (Apr 26, 2017)

I put this in general as it covers a fair amount of areas. First off I need a new roof and Ugggh Im going to hire it done. Knees are bad it is two full stories etc etc. My guy came today and said the top two foot of the chimney is shot and he could take it down by hand. I knew that and had a plan to eliminate it as the only thing it is now used for is the water heater flu. Water heater is working great it was the one that was in the house when we bought it, regular old 40 gallon job. Could go any day or last for ten more years. The roof guy said it will save quite a bit of money to rip out the chimney down to the roof line patch the hole and forget it was ever there, as opposed to fixing it and redoing all the flashing as it is in the center of the house. Seemed logical. WH is natural gas now so if I stay with gas I need one of those tanks that vents with PVC like the new furnace is. I know nothing about those tanks and setups but willing to learn. The other way to go is an electric tank. I have a 200 amp panel would have to wire in a breaker and cable is all. Im already heating 500 gallons of water with electric in the hot tub so whats another 50 gallons. 

What say you all?


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## nealtw (Apr 26, 2017)

I believe the new tank that vents out a wall is expensive. Knock it down to below the roof run the flue inside it down to the old tank.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69e_X3Is3O0[/ame]


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## bud16415 (Apr 26, 2017)

nealtw said:


> I believe the new tank that vents out a wall is expensive. Knock it down to below the roof run the flue inside it down to the old tank.




That sounds kind of pricey also and I would still have to run something thru the roof. I will have to think about that a little.


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## nealtw (Apr 26, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> That sounds kind of pricey also and I would still have to run something thru the roof. I will have to think about that a little.



Yes but that is a normal boot on the roof and a one time expense.
The more expensive tank would be more the next time too and so on.


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## oldognewtrick (Apr 26, 2017)

Take the chimney down below the roof and install a vent flashing for the flue pipe, they are about $35.00 at the hvac supply house...that's what is do..

http://www.globaltowne.com/z-flex-z...tore=default&gclid=CI-Zxq2Jw9MCFR65wAodKWoKRg


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## nealtw (Apr 26, 2017)

oldognewtrick said:


> Take the chimney down below the roof and install a vent flashing for the flue pipe, they are about $35.00 at the hvac supply house...that's what is do..
> 
> http://www.globaltowne.com/z-flex-z...tore=default&gclid=CI-Zxq2Jw9MCFR65wAodKWoKRg



I think if he modifies the chimney he has to bring it up to code with the liner for gas.


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## oldognewtrick (Apr 26, 2017)

Guess a call to codes is in his best interest.


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## bud16415 (Apr 27, 2017)

Thanks guys. That i don't know as of yet. if i could just attach something to the flue in the attic and then thru the roof would be simple and cheep. Will have to see what code says about that.


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## Snoonyb (Apr 27, 2017)

If your exhaust is presently "only" the masonry flue, then without installing a flue liner, how can you safely assure that the removal process did not cause undiscovered faults which in-turn allow exhaust gasses to become trapped within the structure, for you and yours to ingest?


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## bud16415 (Apr 27, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> If your exhaust is presently "only" the masonry flue, then without installing a flue liner, how can you safely assure that the removal process did not cause undiscovered faults which in-turn allow exhaust gasses to become trapped within the structure, for you and yours to ingest?



I guess the same way I trust the guy installing a flue liner didnt cause it to have a crack and let gasses out into the living space. We have to trust in God and the guy building it and the parts. We have a gas stove that is unvented so we are getting some combustion gasses already.  Someone vented the furnace we have with PVC pipe and I trust those glue joints are also holding. 

The flue liner Im guessing is well over 100 years old. Most of its life it carried furnace gasses from wood, coal, oil, natural gas. Its one flue is now unused and the other carries the gasses from the natural gas combustion from the WH.


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## Snoonyb (Apr 27, 2017)

Paraphrase: and now you know the building depts. argument.


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## oldognewtrick (Apr 27, 2017)

The water heater is how old? Chances are its going to be replaced in ?? years? Why not just install a electric water heater and eliminate the need of a flue....just a thought.


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## bud16415 (Apr 27, 2017)

oldognewtrick said:


> The water heater is how old? Chances are its going to be replaced in ?? years? Why not just install a electric water heater and eliminate the need of a flue....just a thought.




This is the way I'm leaning also. My guess is it is at least half or more used up. Electric might cost a bit more to run but not that much. 

Holly was funny when i told her the plan and she said What we are going to actually throw something away that hasn't blown up yet. She has my number.


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## nealtw (Apr 28, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> This is the way I'm leaning also. My guess is it is at least half or more used up. Electric might cost a bit more to run but not that much.
> 
> Holly was funny when i told her the plan and she said What we are going to actually throw something away that hasn't blown up yet. She has my number.


These guys ran the liner but they also said the old liner was in poor shape??
http://www.certifiedcraftsmen.com/OldSite/content/chimney-class_a.htm


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## oldognewtrick (Apr 28, 2017)

nealtw said:


> These guys ran the liner but they also said the old liner was in poor shape??
> http://www.certifiedcraftsmen.com/OldSite/content/chimney-class_a.htm



Too bad they don't have the slightest clue on how to install an apron flashing...the bottom should be on top of the shingles. Tuck your rain coat in your paints and wonder why your butt gets wet...


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## nealtw (Apr 28, 2017)

I never looked at that.:rofl:


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## bud16415 (Apr 28, 2017)

oldognewtrick said:


> Too bad they don't have the slightest clue on how to install an apron flashing...the bottom should be on top of the shingles. Tuck your rain coat in your paints and wonder why your butt gets wet...



It looks better that way. After all they are Certified Craftsmen. 

I think I want nothing sticking out of the roof. Except maybe a cupola I could stick my head up in and look around the neighborhood.


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## Snoonyb (Apr 28, 2017)

For the potential influx of nudists?


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## nealtw (Apr 28, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> It looks better that way. After all they are Certified Craftsmen.
> 
> I think I want nothing sticking out of the roof. Except maybe a cupola I could stick my head up in and look around the neighborhood.



A camera would be easier.


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## bud16415 (Jun 12, 2017)

Well the new roof is on and the chimney is gone. The Amish guy took it down to below the roof and I quickly took it down to the attic floor passing the bricks up and out the hole in the roof to save hauling them thru the house. The water heater has been replaced. I left the hole the chimney made and the new steel roofing is above it with ridge venting. With hopes of that and the eve vents on both ends doing a good job of getting some heat out of the attic. It was in the 90s yesterday so I have some good testing weather coming. The eve vents were originally windows on each end they would open for summer. The windows are still in place but when they did the vinyl siding they put perforated piece on the outside. 

Here is my new question. The chimney I believe was original to the house so 137 years old. It is solid except where it was outside. To my surprise a little anyway it had no liner of any type just brick and mortar and it is fairly clean inside. At least not what I expected. It is a straight shot to the basement and would make a great chase for wires if needed. Im thinking of dropping my antenna wire down it. 

Do you guys think I could use it by placing a fan in it in the basement to circulate air out of the basement and into the attic thru the old chimeny. The basement is too cool in the summer months and the attic too warm. Would pushing the cool air into the warm space forcing the hot air out the eves or ridge and then drawing first floor house air down into the basement????   

I know they have whole house fans that kind of do something like this. Im picturing something like a small squirrel cage fan.


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## nealtw (Jun 12, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> Well the new roof is on and the chimney is gone. The Amish guy took it down to below the roof and I quickly took it down to the attic floor passing the bricks up and out the hole in the roof to save hauling them thru the house. The water heater has been replaced. I left the hole the chimney made and the new steel roofing is above it with ridge venting. With hopes of that and the eve vents on both ends doing a good job of getting some heat out of the attic. It was in the 90s yesterday so I have some good testing weather coming. The eve vents were originally windows on each end they would open for summer. The windows are still in place but when they did the vinyl siding they put perforated piece on the outside.
> 
> Here is my new question. The chimney I believe was original to the house so 137 years old. It is solid except where it was outside. To my surprise a little anyway it had no liner of any type just brick and mortar and it is fairly clean inside. At least not what I expected. It is a straight shot to the basement and would make a great chase for wires if needed. Im thinking of dropping my antenna wire down it.
> 
> ...



Does fire stopping come to mind. As most or all of your mechanical is in the basement the last thing you want is a clear shot to the attic.


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## bud16415 (Jun 12, 2017)

nealtw said:


> Does fire stopping come to mind. As most or all of your mechanical is in the basement the last thing you want is a clear shot to the attic.



That would be kind of like my staircase only smaller. But I do get your point and after watching our balloon framed hotel burn down a month ago I see the concept. 

So a fire damper that opens when the fan is called for?


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## Snoonyb (Jun 12, 2017)

The concept is that of a whole house fan, but you should use a fan with a larger CFM than a small squirrel cage, because most of the volume will be taken up in the chimney.


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## nealtw (Jun 12, 2017)

bud16415 said:


> That would be kind of like my staircase only smaller. But I do get your point and after watching our balloon framed hotel burn down a month ago I see the concept.
> 
> So a fire damper that opens when the fan is called for?



Automatic I presume. 
So the house is burning and the attic heats up, the the door opens and the fan turns on.

Basement air is always cooler, so you would pump that air up and out and replace it from main floor air and replace that with warm outside air?


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## oldognewtrick (Jun 12, 2017)

Bud, I always caution folks with older houses about changing the thermal dynamics of an older structure. Buildings that have stood the test of time can be effected drastically by altering what they've grown accustomed to over the years.  On some roof projects I have consulted with building science engineers from the shingle mfgs that allowed for variances on issues due to the age of the building. I would discourage bring cool moist air from the basement and introducing it into a hot attic. I understand your thought process, but I see problems that may occur.


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## inspectorD (Jun 12, 2017)

oldognewtrick said:


> Tuck your rain coat in your paints and wonder why your butt gets wet...



Where have I heard that before...:trophy:

I agree , whole house fans on old homes could be a big issue. 
Damp crawlspaces, dirt floors and balloon framing don't mix well.
Everyone has a unique home, moisture levels, usage, and barriers are best left for someone actually there looking at the property.


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## oldognewtrick (Jun 12, 2017)

inspectorD said:


> Where have I heard that before....



What can I say, I learned from the best.


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## bud16415 (Jun 12, 2017)

Thanks guys. I&#8217;m going with the experts on this one. Right now I just stuffed the hole in the basement with glass insulation. After I run my antenna wire down it I&#8217;ll cap it off better on both ends. It is real nice finally being able to walk the length of the attic without doing the limbo dance in the middle. 

Does anyone know the R value of a tote full of Christmas stuff. She&#8217;s getting some serious totes up there.


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## Snoonyb (Jun 12, 2017)

That would depend upon the free air space between the contents.


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## bud16415 (Jun 12, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> That would depend upon the free air space between the contents.



We live in Pennsylvania all the air here is still free.


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## nealtw (Jun 12, 2017)

Don't know about insulation value but they are a great source of heat. Decorating the house with my ex always heated things up:rofl:


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