# Installing nail on french door and window



## tractng (Nov 21, 2015)

Hello,

I will be ripping out 2 windows that are 4x4 and replacing one window the same size.  The other window will be replaced by a 5 ft french door.

I have install a few pre-hung doors and also a sliding patio door in the past.  Here are some questions I am asking.

1) What is the best method to break the stucco?  In the past, we just used a saw to cut the stucco wall. I am trying to avoid this method as it produce a lot of dust.  Probably hammer or pick?


Also, how much stucco do I have to break?  I am thinking about 5-6 inches more than the opening for black paper/mesh wire and flashing.


2) My french door is 59.25" and 79.5", my rough opening will be extra 1/2" on each side?


3)  Do I still use the 3 coat method (for stucco) once I am done? 
      - scratch, brown, finish


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## Snoonyb (Nov 21, 2015)

tractng said:


> Hello,I will be ripping out 2 windows that are 4x4 and replacing one window the same size.  The other window will be replaced by a 5 ft french door.
> 
> I have install a few pre-hung doors and also a sliding patio door in the past.  Here are some questions I am asking.
> 
> 1) What is the best method to break the stucco?  In the past, we just used a saw to cut the stucco wall. I am trying to avoid this method as it produce a lot of dust.  Probably hammer or pick?



Use a hammer for both window removal.

For the window you intend to replace, in size, just break enough around the window to facilitate the removal and replacement, being especially cautious not to break the flashing paper. Remove the fasteners securing the stucco netting and fold it back, out of the way. Try not to cut and remove the existing stucco netting, because it has already been tempered, which reduces the potential for cracking of the new stucco joints.

For the new door installation, since it will be wider than the removed window opening, try and take it to the next stud,leaving at least 6" narrower in width than the rough door framing.

Since you'll be installing a new header for the door opening, and probably be required to relocate some electrical beside installing some new light switches, you'll need to support the ceiling and remove some interior wall and ceiling material. 




tractng said:


> Also, how much stucco do I have to break?  I am thinking about 5-6 inches more than the opening for black paper/mesh wire and flashing.






tractng said:


> 2) My french door is 59.25" and 79.5", my rough opening will be extra 1/2" on each side?






tractng said:


> 3)  Do I still use the 3 coat method (for stucco) once I am done?- scratch, brown, finish



Yes, just be careful of the moisture content.


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## tractng (Nov 21, 2015)

Thanks.

 "Try not to cut and remove the existing stucco netting, because it has already been tempered, which reduces the potential for cracking of the new stucco joints"

I think you meant, "once it has been tempered",  which has "greater" potential...

I had to re-read a few times .

Btw, I am using a 4"x8" header.  I based on the recent architecture plan that required the same beam size for a 5 ft window.  Current window has 4"x6" header.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 21, 2015)

tractng said:


> Thanks.
> 
> "Try not to cut and remove the existing stucco netting, because it has already been tempered, which reduces the potential for cracking of the new stucco joints"
> 
> I think you meant, "once it has been tempered",  which has "greater" potential...



The tempering is the process of the chemical reaction of the cement adhering to the stucco netting, which amounts to some shrinkage and shrinkage causes cracks.

Using the old tempered netting allows the new stucco to adhere to the existing concrete on the tempered netting so the drying process is uniform and resists shrinkage., ERGO, reducing the potential for cracking.

New stucco netting is bright galvanized, where tempered netting is a dull grey and when the tempered coating is removed, it amounts to a lime based dust, which is cement.

My stucco joints do not crack.





tractng said:


> Btw, I am using a 4x8 header.  I based on the recent architecture plan that required the same beam size for a 5 ft window.



Good deal. That means that the dwelling over the work area in single story.

Have you looked in the attic to see if the ceiling joist end over the wall the new door will be cut into?

If not, you may not need to support the ceiling.


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## tractng (Nov 21, 2015)

Snoonyb said:


> The tempering is the process of the chemical reaction of the cement adhering to the stucco netting, which amounts to some shrinkage and shrinkage causes cracks.
> 
> Using the old tempered netting allows the new stucco to adhere to the existing concrete on the tempered netting so the drying process is uniform and resists shrinkage., ERGO, reducing the potential for cracking.
> 
> ...




Yes to needing support.  I have been up the attic many times.  Thanks, I will post pics along the way.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 21, 2015)

tractng said:


> Yes to needing support.  I have been up the attic many times.  Thanks, I will post pics along the way.



Good. Sounds like you are well on the way to being smarter than what you are working on.


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## tractng (Nov 22, 2015)

Lets say for some reasons that I have to break more stucco than suggested, can I connect the new wire mesh to the old one by some way of twisting the edge (overlap) and using liquid nail.  The backside (under stucco) doesn't have any shear wall.

I understand the side that I need to enlarge for the french door, I need to run to the next stud.

Also, first and second coats of stucco use portland cement with sand?

Thanks again.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 22, 2015)

tractng said:


> Lets say for some reasons that I have to break more stucco than suggested, can I connect the new wire mesh to the old one by some way of twisting the edge (overlap) and using liquid nail.  The backside (under stucco) doesn't have any shear wall.



Agreed, sometimes the breakage goes beyond your best intensions. Inherently paper flashings extend beyond common framing members, into open stud bays, so, in the case of the window change out, the common installation was to flash the opening, caulk the mating surface, install the window and then lath.
It's now evolved to add an additional layer of flashing, at the header, after the window has been installed, but it is also "an installers practice."

In my practice I would simply remove the fasteners, fold the netting and paper away, install a new layer of flashing, caulk and install the window.

Were the old stucco netting be to short to cover the space, I place the new and then overlap the tempered on top and go back far enough to fasten to a framing member. Twisting to interlace the netting is acceptable, but only beyond a fastener and I would never use liquid nails to meld flashing. 



tractng said:


> I understand the side that I need to enlarge for the french door, I need to run to the next stud.



Remember, there is no immediate necessity to arbitrarily remove your alternatives.



tractng said:


> Also, first and second coats of stucco use portland cement with sand?



Because of the size of your patch, I would use a "speedy-patch" product purchased from a local stucco or building material supplier. Locally, MISSION STUCCO, or LA HABRA, or you could also employ the traditional 3 coat process, if you are more familiar and yes red label cement is the correct product to achieve the moisture resistance.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 22, 2015)

Something to keep in mind. If you are on a slab, you'll need to place additional anchors within 12" of the bottom plate ends for the door placement.
On a raised foundation, just some additional nailing is sufficient.


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## nealtw (Nov 22, 2015)

The header over the door will have to be changed and the new size will need two jack studs under each side
I would use a diamond blade in a skill saw and rig a hose to sprits the blade while cutting , no dust, just trim the new with wood.


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## Pcnerd (Nov 23, 2015)

Sounds like a lot of work.


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## tractng (Nov 23, 2015)

I am putting two layers of flashing (one under the lip/trim of the door & other over it) and going to caulk the area.  I probably will not  use a 3 step process.  I have used the rapid set brand before but not sure if it will work well with the thickness.

Yes, I will put anchor bolts on each sides of the slab.  Will use metal plate to tie beam to king stud.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 23, 2015)

tractng said:


> I am putting two layers of flashing (one under the lip/trim of the door & other over it) and going to caulk the area.  I probably will not  use a 3 step process.  I have used the rapid set brand before but not sure if it will work well with the thickness.



You should be able to. I've added color to it in the past when a heavy sand finish is to be matched, and scrubbed it out.
Are you using KEYMESH or K-LATH?

Yes, I will put anchor bolts on each sides of the slab.  Will use metal plate to tie beam to king stud.[/QUOTE]

A35N flattened?







[/QUOTE]

I usually do not caulk around a wood door installation, because the material is not dissimilar from the framing so the expansion and contraction will occur at the same rate, unlike metal frames.

Where I caulk heavily, is under the sil, at the bottom plate ends and under the flashing where it laps onto the weep screed.

I do not see any switches or receptacles. Are you aware that you should be able to turn a light on within 6' of a room entry and that a recepticle is required every 12' around a room?

You are progressing nicely, just be careful of the small details.


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## tractng (Nov 23, 2015)

Snoonyb said:


> You should be able to. I've added color to it in the past when a heavy sand finish is to be matched, and scrubbed it out.
> Are you using KEYMESH or K-LATH?
> 
> Yes, I will put anchor bolts on each sides of the slab.  Will use metal plate to tie beam to king stud.



A35N flattened?







[/QUOTE]

I usually do not caulk around a wood door installation, because the material is not dissimilar from the framing so the expansion and contraction will occur at the same rate, unlike metal frames.

Where I caulk heavily, is under the sil, at the bottom plate ends and under the flashing where it laps onto the weep screed.

I do not see any switches or receptacles. Are you aware that you should be able to turn a light on within 6' of a room entry and that a recepticle is required every 12' around a room?

You are progressing nicely, just be careful of the small details.[/QUOTE]

Yes to the first question.  Working on the lights/outlet upcoming week.

If I do use a 3 step stucco process, do I have to wait one week between 1st and 2nd coat?  Would a 90 lbs of cement be enough for my door and windows?  

Right now still evaluating if i should just use the one step method but isn't sure how well I can smooth/level it for about 3/4-1" inch thickness.  For the one step process, you can't go back later to add another coat the second day?

I am not sure what is called, but it comes with black paper and brown on top with wires for stucco.  The spacing is a a good inch (estimate).  I didn't want to buy them separate since its a small job.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 23, 2015)

tractng said:


> A35N flattened?






tractng said:


> Yes to the first question.  Working on the lights/outlet upcoming week.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## nealtw (Nov 23, 2015)

Metal strap will not hold the weight, your header needs to be 6" longer. You might get away with that in other places but not when you have rafters landing above.  ypu could use a hanger but you still need a double stud on each side of the door. Evan non bearing wall get 2 studs beside doors on each side.


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## Pcnerd (Nov 23, 2015)

nealtw said:


> Metal strap will not hold the weight, your header needs to be 6" longer. You might get away with that in other places but not when you have rafters landing above.  ypu could use a hanger but you still need a double stud on each side of the door. Evan non bearing wall get 2 studs beside doors on each side.



I have two studs on each side, king and jack studs.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 23, 2015)

Pcnerd said:


> I have two studs on each side, king and jack studs.



Who are you and what happened to tractng, the OP?


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## nealtw (Nov 23, 2015)

Pcnerd said:


> I have two studs on each side, king and jack studs.



I did not see the Jack stud at all but you shoiuld have had 2 on each side. the king stud holds it all in place  but 5 ft is the transition from 1 to 2 so you are close.


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## Pcnerd (Nov 24, 2015)

Snoonyb said:


> Who are you and what happened to tractng, the OP?




I had two accounts.  One I forget I had for so long, :rofl:


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## Pcnerd (Nov 24, 2015)

Last question before the holidays.  Are there any issue with running a power line on the same column (wall) as the water line?  Want to put an outside light at that spot.


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## nealtw (Nov 24, 2015)

I don't think that is a problem


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## Snoonyb (Nov 24, 2015)

Pcnerd said:


> I had two accounts.  One I forget I had for so long, :rofl:



Understood. It's why I only use one and have no reason to hide from any one.

I didn't comment on the "jack stud", which is an east coast terminology for the framing member that is placed next to the king stud and below the header.

The west coast term for that member, is trimmer, as in trimming the load.

Here the double trimmer is required for openings 6' and greater and double king studs are not required.

There is an evolution for how this became a requirement, and builders did this to themselves, kinda like shooting yourself in the foot.

Often people will interpret the header size as a prerequisite for the double trimmer requirement.

As a point of clarification, you could have posted some photos of the framing alone.


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## nealtw (Nov 24, 2015)

Snoonyb said:


> Understood. It's why I only use one and have no reason to hide from any one.
> 
> I didn't comment on the "jack stud", which is an east coast terminology for the framing member that is placed next to the king stud and below the header.
> 
> ...



terminology is all about where you are. We support headers with criples and jack studs are the shorts under the window.
I think you will find that code everywhere is two each end for 5ft and then the engineers go nuts from there.


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## Pcnerd (Nov 25, 2015)

We just did a room addition and the header was 6 ft wide and the beam used 6"x10"  over a load bearing wall on a single jack stud.  Engineer approved and city inspected.

Snoonyb,

I think you mentioned this as a better choice.  I have used it before.  I think you are correct.  Since its not a shear wall (no plywood behind), its much stronger.  Is that what you were referring to?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-27-in-x-8-ft-Steel-Lath-2-5-METAL-LATH/202093395


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## nealtw (Nov 25, 2015)

If there is an engineer on site, the city just leaves the beams and bearing up to him. We installed a beam today 5 1/2 x 9 1/4 by 78" , it has 8 jack studs. He is the guy that figures out the load. We have times when there just isn't room for all the studs and the city just asks for an engineers report on that.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 25, 2015)

Pcnerd said:


> We just did a room addition and the header was 6 ft wide and the beam used 6"x10"  over a load bearing wall on a single jack stud.  Engineer approved and city inspected.



In most U.S. municipalities, in situations where a structural engineer is required, those calcs. must be completed prior to applying for the permit and the plans submitted, with that firms wet stamp a-fixed. 

Snoonyb,

I think you mentioned this as a better choice.  I have used it before.  I think you are correct.  Since its not a shear wall (no plywood behind), its much stronger.  Is that what you were referring to?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-27-in-x-8-ft-Steel-Lath-2-5-METAL-LATH/202093395[/QUOTE]

No. Yet in some cases this product, "expanded metal lath" is used for under shots and another version, "rib lath" is used for the underside of balconies and mezzanines.

This is the product;http://www.homedepot.com/p/Weyerhaeuser-28-in-x-104-in-Single-Paper-Welded-Wire-Lath-60101/202094337


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## Snoonyb (Nov 25, 2015)

nealtw said:


> terminology is all about where you are. We support headers with criples and jack studs are the shorts under the window.
> I think you will find that code everywhere is two each end for 5ft and then the engineers go nuts from there.



Here, cripples occur between the header and top plate, the header and the window sil, and the window sil and the bottom plate and constitute a trimmer.

In windows where the callout is less than 6', the header and sil span between the two king studs and the trimmer is comprised of three pieces, a cripple above the header, between the header and sil which is also adjusted for the window fit, and a cripple between the sil and bottom plate.

When the callout is 6' and larger a full length trimmer is installed between the header and the bottom plate and the rest is completed as above.


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## nealtw (Nov 25, 2015)

Snoonyb said:


> Here, cripples occur between the header and top plate, the header and the window sil, and the window sil and the bottom plate and constitute a trimmer.
> 
> In windows where the callout is less than 6', the header and sil span between the two king studs and the trimmer is comprised of three pieces, a cripple above the header, between the header and sil which is also adjusted for the window fit, and a cripple between the sil and bottom plate.
> 
> When the callout is 6' and larger a full length trimmer is installed between the header and the bottom plate and the rest is completed as above.



Call out?

We see the trimmer system on TV all the time and it is not what we do for a few reasons.
The ply wood is left out of the header beacuse if the header is wet when it drys something has to crack as it shrinks.
The blocks above the header will hide the shrinkage of the header.
You may have noticed some houses crackle on season change.
We always have the header at the top of the wall so when shrinkage becomes noticeable it is shimmed, shims directly below the joists or rafters above.
This also makes it easy for the framers too as we just count up all the jack stud or criples as we call them and cut enough for whole floor.
As the header does not match our 2x6 walls we install a top sill also.
Your sill extending into the trimmer just adds more crush factor (more chance of settling)


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## Snoonyb (Nov 25, 2015)

nealtw said:


> Call out?



2 X 5, 3 X 4, 5 X 2, 6 X 4 etc.,etc.

We see the trimmer system on TV all the time and it is not what we do for a few reasons.
The ply wood is left out of the header beacuse if the header is wet when it drys something has to crack as it shrinks.[/QUOTE]

We seldom use built-up headers.

We use dimensional lumber for headers; 4X, 6X, because it is cheaper in both material cost and labor.

The blocks above the header will hide the shrinkage of the header.[/QUOTE]

Kiln dried lumber shrinks very little, and over a long period.

You may have noticed some houses crackle on season change.[/QUOTE]

Have never noticed. So it may be regional.

We always have the header at the top of the wall so when shrinkage becomes noticeable it is shimmed, shims directly below the joists or rafters above.[/QUOTE]

We fit and tight nail, no shims except at door frames.

So, if you have a stud wall composed of 96" studs and the top of all of the windows and doors are aligned at 6'8" above the floor, what is the header size?
This also makes it easy for the framers too as we just count up all the jack stud or criples as we call them and cut enough for whole floor.

As the header does not match our 2x6 walls we install a top sill also.[/QUOTE]

That's a lot of extra work.

Your sill extending into the trimmer just adds more crush factor (more chance of settling)[/QUOTE]

Tight fit takes care of that.


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## nealtw (Nov 26, 2015)

A standard header is 2  2x10s, same as floor joists, less selection of lumber on the job. From time to time engineers do what they do.

As far as more work, put it this way.

If we have a floor ready to put walls up, we have a three man crew. We take (one day) to lay out all the walls top and bottom plates layed out in place on the floor, All headers cut and labeled
Jack studs or criples all cut and nailed to king studs as required, corner Ls and interior door doubles are nailed up
Sills and lower jacks are cut and labeled for all doors and windows
waterscreen paper and blueskin is prepped for all the windows and doors
On the second day we build and stand walls and level and brace it ready for floor joists above
That would be house about 2000 sq ft
With the impending earthquake we a sure to get  we often have to block every joint on the plywood sheeting and then have to drill a hole so every stud bay is vented.
Our joist material is dry but depending on how long it has been stored in the rain some can be 3/8" taller than the rest.
We use wet lumber so that it is easy to straighten, we hate lumber that we get in Aug as it is impossible to work which  does slow us down.
Most of the time we are working in the rain.


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## Snoonyb (Nov 26, 2015)

nealtw said:


> A standard header is 2  2x10s, same as floor joists, less selection of lumber on the job. From time to time engineers do what they do.



What you have described is an individual.

When I do an individual, either standard or custom, we start with the bare ground and an approved set of building plans and complete the bare, rough structure, ready for the other trades.

I say this with the understanding that the plumber has stubbed out above the floor. 



nealtw said:


> As far as more work, put it this way.
> 
> If we have a floor ready to put walls up, we have a three man crew. We take (one day) to lay out all the walls top and bottom plates layed out in place on the floor, All headers cut and labeled
> Jack studs or criples all cut and nailed to king studs as required, corner Ls and interior door doubles are nailed up
> ...



We are a 4 person crew and all are familiar with the plans, before a nail is driven, and the tasks are rotated.


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## nealtw (Nov 26, 2015)

We start in mud and form the foundation a finish with it ready for the roofer, come back to install windows and back frame the basement after the furnace is in


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## Snoonyb (Nov 27, 2015)

nealtw said:


> We start in mud and form the foundation a finish with it ready for the roofer, come back to install windows and back frame the basement after the furnace is in



So, where, on Earth, is this magical place with 101% humidity, where either they do not sell tarps, or no one knows what they are, and you are allowed to place a foundation in unconsolidated soil?


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## nealtw (Nov 27, 2015)

Ya they compact the soil or add gravel but there ia always mud around to wook in, we get alot of rain here, always tempted to build the roof first.
As most of the time we are working hillside so we have to watch out for mud sliding in the hole.


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