# A few questions about installing tile



## farmerjohn1324 (Nov 24, 2017)

There is a space where I was told I need a threshold because of differences in elevation of the floor where it transitions between these two rooms. How do I install this correctly?

Also, some primer was put on this vinyl to make it ready for tile, but it was applied almost 2 months ago. Do I need to reapply the primer?


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Nov 30, 2017)

Okay I found out I need a type of transition strip called a reducer. It's going from tile to tile, but I don't think they make the strips out of ceramic. Is wood my only option?


----------



## nealtw (Nov 30, 2017)

https://www.lowes.com/pd/FLEXCO-Div...-Edge-Divider-Floor-Transition-Strip/50115799
I like this one, there is an aluminum track that goes down when you tile and the vinyl goes in last. I have it between tile and laminate in matching colour, Nothing to trip over.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 1, 2017)

nealtw said:


> https://www.lowes.com/pd/FLEXCO-Div...-Edge-Divider-Floor-Transition-Strip/50115799
> I like this one, there is an aluminum track that goes down when you tile and the vinyl goes in last. I have it between tile and laminate in matching colour, Nothing to trip over.



So vinyl in between 2 pieces of ceramic tile?


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 1, 2017)

Google marble transitions; https://www.lowes.com/pd/CCI-4-in-x...MIysTGm77p1wIVjrbACh2wPAJhEAAYBCAAEgITw_D_BwE


----------



## slownsteady (Dec 6, 2017)

What exactly do those three pictures have in common?


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 6, 2017)

slownsteady said:


> What exactly do those three pictures have in common?




They are the same house.

Picture #1 shows the areas of different elevation.

Picture #2 shows the vinyl that the primer in Picture #3 was put on a few months ago.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 6, 2017)

Can I mix thinset with a 20V DeWalt drill?

I'm going to be mixing in a 5 gallon bucket with a paddle that looks like this.... (pic attached).

Do I need something better like a driver?


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 6, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> They are the same house.
> 
> Picture #1 shows the areas of different elevation.
> 
> Picture #2 shows the vinyl that the primer in Picture #3 was put on a few months ago.



The mortar add-mix is not a primer.

It enhances the performance of non-modified thinsets and grouts.

See here under limitations; http://www.custombuildingproducts.com/TDS/TDS-175.pdf


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 6, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Can I mix thinset with a 20V DeWalt drill?
> 
> I'm going to be mixing in a 5 gallon bucket with a paddle that looks like this.... (pic attached).
> 
> Do I need something better like a driver?



That tool and wand will suffice for small quantities.


----------



## havasu (Dec 6, 2017)

I mixed thinset and layed 1800 sq ft of wood plank tile using an 18 volt DeWalt similar to what you have pictured.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 8, 2017)

havasu said:


> I mixed thinset and layed 1800 sq ft of wood plank tile using an 18 volt DeWalt similar to what you have pictured.



Cool.

Do you know if I should reapply the primer?


----------



## havasu (Dec 8, 2017)

What was the reason for not removing the vinyl in the first place? Did I miss this?


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 8, 2017)

havasu said:


> What was the reason for not removing the vinyl in the first place? Did I miss this?



So as not to disturb asbestos.

At least according to 50% of the people that looked at it.


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 8, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> So as not to disturb asbestos.
> 
> At least according to 50% of the people that looked at it.



Does the dwelling predate the 50 & 60's, because that would have been the era when asbestos was last used as a binder in linoleum.

The elec. service photo you posted in another thread, post dates that.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 8, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Does the dwelling predate the 50 & 60's, because that would have been the era when asbestos was last used as a binder in linoleum.
> 
> The elec. service photo you posted in another thread, post dates that.



Original construction was 1954.


----------



## havasu (Dec 8, 2017)

I would be concerned about the tile cracking with that vinyl under it. I may be wrong, but would certainly make sure the thinset had an elastic modified polymer in it. I purchased my thinset from Lowes since Home Depot did not carry it. (at the time, but it has been a few years and two knees ago when I did that job!)


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 9, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Original construction was 1954.



Thanks.

Asbestos only becomes dangerous when it is friable, IE, airborne, so I would have, depending upon size of the area, rented a compressor and the flooring stripper, dampened the area and removed it. Cut-back adhesive was no longer used in that era.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 9, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Asbestos only becomes dangerous when it is friable, IE, airborne, so I would have, depending upon size of the area, rented a compressor and the flooring stripper, dampened the area and removed it. Cut-back adhesive was no longer used in that era.



Okay.

But in any event, should I reapply that primer?


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 9, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Okay.
> 
> But in any event, should I reapply that primer?



As it says on the container, it's a vinyl add-mix that causes non-modified thin set and grout to become water repellant, it also increases the adhesive properties as well as the work time.

Using the product as a primer creates a barrier and would limit or restrict the adhesive properties inherent in the thinset.


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 9, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Can I mix thinset with a 20V DeWalt drill?
> 
> I'm going to be mixing in a 5 gallon bucket with a paddle that looks like this.... (pic attached).
> 
> Do I need something better like a driver?



In the photo in the thread authored by you, "How to properly tape this room off to spray paint the ceiling?" there is a Milwaukee Hole Hog, so why no use that tool and save the wear and tear on the DeWalt?


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 9, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> In the photo in the thread authored by you, "How to properly tape this room off to spray paint the ceiling?" there is a Milwaukee Hole Hog, so why no use that tool and save the wear and tear on the DeWalt?



That's a Bosch Rotary Hammer. I don't think it would work for that purpose.


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 9, 2017)

Interesting, I've owned, and still do, several different Bosch roto and demo hammers and none were ever red, just blue.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 10, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Interesting, I've owned, and still do, several different Bosch roto and demo hammers and none were ever red, just blue.



https://m.harborfreight.com/power-tools/hammer-drills.html?utm_referrer=direct/not provided


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 10, 2017)

So, you meant Bauer, not Bosch.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 10, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> So, you meant Bauer, not Bosch.



Yea Bauer

...........


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 22, 2017)

Is this not the right drill to connect a mixing paddle to?

The paddle keeps falling out when it's spun. Definitely enough power.

https://m.northerntool.com/products...ries &gt; Corded Drills&utm_source=Google_PLA


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 22, 2017)

Also, what's the best way to measure a perfect chalk line? I have a drywall square. Do I have to drive screws into the concrete to get the chalk line perfect?


----------



## nealtw (Dec 22, 2017)

Measure from the square to the end wall . Measure by the door from the end wall and mark the floor. Move the square and hook the line to the end of the wall , hold it on the mark after pulling it tight and snap the line. 
Double check it to the other end of the room and make sure you will be happy.


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 22, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Is this not the right drill to connect a mixing paddle to?
> 
> The paddle keeps falling out when it's spun. Definitely enough power.



Wether or not the spline on the mixing paddle is round or hexagonal, it will chuck in your drill motor.

If it's hexagonal it need to be correctly fitted so that all three jaws of the chuck land on a flat surface.  

On the cheap drill motors you'll often to need to tighten the chuck in all three holes.

If all else fails, you may be able to change the chuck to a quality Jacobs chuck.


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 22, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Also, what's the best way to measure a perfect chalk line? I have a drywall square. Do I have to drive screws into the concrete to get the chalk line perfect?



Measure the room at both ends, in both directions, use a weight to hold one end of the line.

Be mindful of your layout, which can eliminate unnecessary cut pieces where the aesthetics would be unpleasant.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 22, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Measure the room at both ends, in both directions, use a weight to hold one end of the line.
> 
> Be mindful of your layout, which can eliminate unnecessary cut pieces where the aesthetics would be unpleasant.



I was told to use the line where that drywall square is as the starting line. Not sure why, but that's what I'm going to use.


----------



## nealtw (Dec 22, 2017)

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anWYbNVbJtk[/ame]


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 22, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I was told to use the line where that drywall square is as the starting line. Not sure why, but that's what I'm going to use.



What ever squirts your worm.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 22, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> What ever squirts your worm.



Well I want to do what's right. From what I can tell, it doesn't really matter where I start except to avoid weird looking pieces near the edges.


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 22, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Well I want to do what's right. From what I can tell, it doesn't really matter where I start except to avoid weird looking pieces near the edges.



That's why you do a layout, including the width of the grout lines.

As a for-instance, the wall where the range sets the floor beneath the cabinets has no balancing aesthetic value, because it can't be seen, however the other end of that room can, and when transitioning thru the doorway into the next room, how does that room layout follow.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 22, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> That's why you do a layout, including the width of the grout lines.
> 
> As a for-instance, the wall where the range sets the floor beneath the cabinets has no balancing aesthetic value, because it can't be seen, however the other end of that room can, and when transitioning thru the doorway into the next room, how does that room layout follow.



So I have to layout the whole house before I lay a single tile?


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 23, 2017)

You do it with a tape measure and a pencil and you make aesthetic adjustments as you go.

The aesthetics is in maintaining a pattern consistency in the border cuts. As a for instance, will the border cut be the same on both sides of the kitchen, and then follow into the adjacent room.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 23, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> You do it with a tape measure and a pencil and you make aesthetic adjustments as you go.
> 
> The aesthetics is in maintaining a pattern consistency in the border cuts. As a for instance, will the border cut be the same on both sides of the kitchen, and then follow into the adjacent room.



Once I lay the first tile, I'm setting the pattern for the whole house.

I could have an ugly 2" wide strip of tile along the wall in a bedroom without even knowing it.


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 23, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Once I lay the first tile, I'm setting the pattern for the whole house.



Not necessarily, but if that's what you choose.

Or,  "You do it with a tape measure and a pencil and *you make aesthetic adjustments as you go."*



farmerjohn1324 said:


> I could have an ugly 2" wide strip of tile along the wall in a bedroom without even knowing it.



Repeat.

There are cheap-n-dirty installation, and there are thoughtful, professional installations.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 23, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Not necessarily, but if that's what you choose.
> 
> Or,  "You do it with a tape measure and a pencil and *you make aesthetic adjustments as you go."*
> 
> ...



Can you explain how I can make an adjustment once I get started? As of right now, I don't understand how the grid pattern for the entire house isn't set once I set the first tile. I've started measuring the dimensions of every room in the house. Is this necessary to get the best result before I start?

I am trying to avoid small widths of tile at the edges. Google told me to avoid anything smaller than 1/2 a tile width, which would be 8" in this case. I think that's overkill, and I might just want to avoid very small pieces like 3" and smaller.

But even now, I'm at Dunkin Donuts and they have strips of tile along the wall that are 1", and I would never have noticed if I wasn't thinking about it. Is this impossible to avoid at all places in the house?


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 24, 2017)

Can you I/D. the rooms?

Kitchen=Kit.
Living rm= LR
Dining room-DR
Entry=E
Etc.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 24, 2017)

Hopefully this is readable

Can you explain how I can adjust the grid after getting started? Other than for interruptions like thresholds?


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 24, 2017)

Where is the front entrance door?


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 24, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Where is the front entrance door?



Towards the bottom left of the room labeled "E."


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 24, 2017)

Thanks.

The entry, kit. and living room are the high traffic areas, and the most visual.

The kit./bdr and the liv.rm have the longest common wall so I would start at the kit./bdr. wall with an 8" tile, which would follow along the common wall into the liv.rm.

Lay the 16" out form the 8" tile in the kit, to the left and with a chalk line, determine how that translate that into the entry. Working back to the right entry wall, what is the margin tile size. 3.5" would be Ideal.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 25, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Thanks.
> 
> The entry, kit. and living room are the high traffic areas, and the most visual.
> 
> ...



The right wall of the kitchen that leads to Bedroom 1 (Be 1) has these shelves on it, so it wouldn't matter so much if there were little tile pieces under the shelf, basically out of view.

Also, there will have to be a reducing transition strip on both of the entries from the kitchen to living room, so that will basically be a separate grid for the living room and the rooms to the left of it.

I attached a picture of the shelves and the right entry from kitchen to living room.

Why are you saying I should aim for 3.5" strips of tile? I would think I would want larger than that in highly visible areas.


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 25, 2017)

You are absolutely free to use transitions between each and every room, and to treat each an every room as separate grids.

As I've said, the aesthetics are an adjustment you make.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 25, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> You are absolutely free to use transitions between each and every room, and to treat each an every room as separate grids.
> 
> As I've said, the aesthetics are an adjustment you make.



So that is what you meant when you said the grid wasn't set for the house after the first tile is laid? Use transitions?


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 25, 2017)

The concept is of a flat palate that the layout follows throughout the palate without interruption. Using transition and creating individual grids interrupts this, and however, is your aesthetic choice.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 28, 2017)

I want to lay the first tile square in the kitchen.

However, I measured the kitchen to be 3/8" longer at bottom than at top. Therefore, how do I get square?


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 28, 2017)

Assuming that the north and east wall are square to each other.

You strike a mark 5' out from the east wall at both the north and south ends of the room, and snap a line. You repeat this from the north wall.

Pick a square and mark 3' from the apex north, and 4' from the apex east. The dia. length between those marks should be 5'. If it's longer or shorter, you mark it at 5' and re-snap the north south line.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 30, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Assuming that the north and east wall are square to each other.
> 
> You strike a mark 5' out from the east wall at both the north and south ends of the room, and snap a line. You repeat this from the north wall.
> 
> Pick a square and mark 3' from the apex north, and 4' from the apex east. The dia. length between those marks should be 5'. If it's longer or shorter, you mark it at 5' and re-snap the north south line.



I understand the 3', 4', 5' thing.

3^2 + 4^2 = 5^2. Makes a right triangle.

I have determined the best lines in the house to minimize small pieces of tile around the edges. They are the red chalk line and the top wall of the kitchen.

But they are not square when I tried. They are off square by 7/16" every 15 7/8" (one tile length).

How do I get this square and know where to put my first tile. It is more important to keep a straight line along the top wall of the kitchen because I will be placing mosaic floor tiles to transition into the room above the kitchen (LR).

That means that over the horizontal distance of the kitchen, it would be off center by over 6". That's pretty significant. Or if I made the tiles straight to the top kitchen wall, it would be very off center going vertically down all the main walls of the house.

I cannot fix a house that is not square. And I can't make my tiles anything but square.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 30, 2017)

Okay so I guess I need to square it to that top wall using the 3, 4, 5 rule. But wouldn't that leave weird triangular edges of tile along every vertical wall in the house?

I don't see what I can do about this.


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 30, 2017)

Mark 8' to the west of the east wall along the north wall, then mark 6' along the east wall from the north wall. The distance between those two marks should be 10'.

The 2nd and 3rd sentence tell you how to square the layout, and when you have it sq. you adjust the layout from there.


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 30, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Okay so I guess I need to square it to that top wall using the 3, 4, 5 rule. But wouldn't that leave weird triangular edges of tile along every vertical wall in the house?
> 
> I don't see what I can do about this.



Read the 2nd and 3rd sentences again. The square is the 3 & 4 legs, not the 5, which is the hypotenuse, and it's only function is to tell you if the 3 & 4 are square to each other.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 30, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Mark 8' to the west of the east wall along the north wall, then mark 6' along the east wall from the north wall. The distance between those two marks should be 10'.
> 
> The 2nd and 3rd sentence tell you how to square the layout, and when you have it sq. you adjust the layout from there.



Either way, I have to put one flat edge of the tile on the north wall because it has to be straight along the transition between the rooms.

I already know that the walls are not square, so doing an 8, 6, 10 will just confirm that.

Could I also do a 3, 4, 5 using the north wall as either the 3 or 4?

The vertical angle that the grout lines must be at are already determined by the fact that they have to be perpendicular to the north wall.

I know the 5 and 10 are the hypotenuse.

I believe there is no way to avoid having odd triangular shaped tiles near some of the walls.


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 31, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Either way, I have to put one flat edge of the tile on the north wall because it has to be straight along the transition between the rooms.



The 2nd sentence creates 4 boxes, and *measuring from the apex* in the east 2 boxes creates a straight north/south line when adjusted. The north/south dimension divided by 16" leaves you with a cut tile, and the option of splitting that tile, placing it along the north or south wall. Your choice.

The east/west dimension also leave you a cut tile, which you can either split, and/or hide under the shelves, or under the cabinets.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> I already know that the walls are not square, so doing an 8, 6, 10 will just confirm that.
> Could I also do a 3, 4, 5 using the north wall as either the 3 or 4?



The longer the hypotenuse, the greater the accuracy.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> The vertical angle that the grout lines must be at are already determined by the fact that they have to be perpendicular to the north wall.



As stated in the 3rd sentence, you make the adjustment.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> I know the 5 and 10 are the hypotenuse.
> I believe there is no way to avoid having odd triangular shaped tiles near some of the walls.



Only at your creation, can a triangle be created from a square box.


----------



## slownsteady (Dec 31, 2017)

If you have to cut tiles, the best place to do it is at the edges, and you may HAVE to cut tiles. You have some flexibility by adjusting the size of your grout lines, and a molding or cove base at the bottom of the wall also helps cover small cuts. You can also try to hide them under appliances or heaters etc. Try to avoid cut tiles in doorways or other high-traffic areas.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 31, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> The 2nd sentence creates 4 boxes, and *measuring from the apex* in the east 2 boxes creates a straight north/south line when adjusted. The north/south dimension divided by 16" leaves you with a cut tile, and the option of splitting that tile, placing it along the north or south wall. Your choice.
> 
> The east/west dimension also leave you a cut tile, which you can either split, and/or hide under the shelves, or under the cabinets.
> 
> ...



What is the 2nd and 3rd sentence?


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 31, 2017)

slownsteady said:


> If you have to cut tiles, the best place to do it is at the edges, and you may HAVE to cut tiles. You have some flexibility by adjusting the size of your grout lines, and a molding or cove base at the bottom of the wall also helps cover small cuts. You can also try to hide them under appliances or heaters etc. Try to avoid cut tiles in doorways or other high-traffic areas.



So you agree that I can't avoid having triangular pieces by the walls? Like the top row in this video...

https://youtu.be/BvTenRHRhOE


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 31, 2017)

See posts 52, 55 & 56.


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 31, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> So you agree that I can't avoid having triangular pieces by the walls? Like the top row in this video...
> 
> https://youtu.be/BvTenRHRhOE



I don't use utube to describe a process that I learned with experience.

No, I do not agree.

From post #58;"Only at your creation, can a triangle be created from a square box."


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 31, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> I don't use utube to describe a process that I learned with experience.
> 
> No, I do not agree.
> 
> From post #58;"Only at your creation, can a triangle be created from a square box."



But the box (room) isn't square. It is a trapezoid.

And it's not just one room, It's a whole house. Many, many trapezoids.

The first line of post 52 says "Assuming that the north and east wall are square to each other."

But they are not square to each other.

And you keep referring to "the 2nd and 3rd sentence." The 2nd and 3rd sentence of what?


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 31, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> But the box (room) isn't square. It is a trapezoid.



If and when you decide to follow sentence 2 of post 52 for the kitchen, quoted below, you will define 4 boxes, 3 of which are square, relatively, and another with a square box removed.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> And it's not just one room, It's a whole house. Many, many trapezoids.



And according to you will have floor covering other than the 16"sq. for the kitchen. None the less they can all be cut into square boxes.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> The first line of post 52 says "Assuming that the north and east wall are square to each other."
> But they are not square to each other.



Then you adjust for the desired aesthetic results.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> And you keep referring to "the 2nd and 3rd sentence." The 2nd and 3rd sentence of what?



And I keep pointing to post #52, as, and I hope for the last time, are quoted here;"You strike a mark 5' out from the east wall at both the north and south ends of the room, and snap a line. You repeat this from the north wall."

"Pick a square and mark 3' from the apex north, and 4' from the apex east. The dia. length between those marks should be 5'. If it's longer or shorter, you mark it at 5' and re-snap the north south line."


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 31, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> If and when you decide to follow sentence 2 of post 52 for the kitchen, quoted below, you will define 4 boxes, 3 of which are square, relatively, and another with a square box removed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This picture is the intersection of the 5' off of north and 5' off of east.

Now, you say "pick a square." I don't know what that means. I also don't know what "apex north" means. I know the definition of the word apex.

I fully understand the Pythagorean Theorem and that 3^2 + 4^2 = 5^2 and that 6^2 + 8^2 = 10^2.

I will be using the same 15 7/8" tile throughout the entire house.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 31, 2017)

Okay I get what you're saying. The hypotenuse is slightly off 5'.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 31, 2017)

Okay actually, it is at 5'. My first horizontal chalk line I noticed was slightly off the 5' marks that I marked. When I redid the chalk line, it is right at 5' hypotenuse.

This makes no sense since I know the walls aren't square to each other, but I won't argue.

I still think I will end up with triangular pieces, but I don't think there's anything I can do about that.


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 31, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Okay I get what you're saying. The hypotenuse is slightly off 5'.



Good. Now make your adjustment to fit the aesthetics you choose.

From post #53; "I will be placing mosaic floor tiles to transition into the room above the kitchen (LR)."


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 31, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> Good. Now make your adjustment to fit the aesthetics you choose.
> 
> From post #53; "I will be placing mosaic floor tiles to transition into the room above the kitchen (LR)."



I made a horizontal and vertical adjustment to try to minimize small pieces near the walls.

I still expect triangular pieces along the vertical walls. But the larger they are, the less weird they will look.

I am using mosaic floor tile in that particular section because I have to due to the gradual 1/2" slope over 9".

What type of "adjustments" are you talking about?


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 31, 2017)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I made a horizontal and vertical adjustment to try to minimize small pieces near the walls.
> 
> I still expect triangular pieces along the vertical walls. But the larger they are, the less weird they will look.
> 
> ...



The adjustments you said you made.

All walls are vertical, so creating a triangle from a square, is your choice.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 31, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> The adjustments you said you made.
> 
> All walls are vertical, so creating a triangle from a square, is your choice.



The house is not square. The walls of the house are not at right angles to each other.

How do I fit a bunch of square tiles evenly into something that isn't square?


----------



## Snoonyb (Dec 31, 2017)

You cut them to fit.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Dec 31, 2017)

Snoonyb said:


> You cut them to fit.



Which I should expect to look like a trapezoid along certain walls.

Whenever I said triangle, I meant to say trapezoid.


----------



## slownsteady (Dec 31, 2017)

If the room is perfectly square and perfectly divisible by the size of the tiles you choose, then you will not have to cut tiles. Otherwise you will have to cut tiles. since the room is out of square, then your cuts will have to be on angles to complete the job. The trick is hide the worst side, and to avoid cutting small slivers of tile to fill the gaps at the wall. That's why you may have to adjust the chalk line intersection in the middle of the room. Just place ( don't set them, just lay them loose) a single row of tiles down end to end across the room following your chalk line. do the same with the other line. If you have less than a quarter tile where it meets the wall, you can either adjust the size of the grout lines or arrange for the small piece to be on the end that shows least...or do both. If the tile needs to be cut on an angle, then do it.
Another option would be to use a mosaic border around the room so that the smaller tiles might hide the angles. But I think that would be more work than it's worth, and the mosaics would still have to be cut on an angle.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Jan 1, 2018)

slownsteady said:


> If the room is perfectly square and perfectly divisible by the size of the tiles you choose, then you will not have to cut tiles. Otherwise you will have to cut tiles. since the room is out of square, then your cuts will have to be on angles to complete the job. The trick is hide the worst side, and to avoid cutting small slivers of tile to fill the gaps at the wall. That's why you may have to adjust the chalk line intersection in the middle of the room. Just place ( don't set them, just lay them loose) a single row of tiles down end to end across the room following your chalk line. do the same with the other line. If you have less than a quarter tile where it meets the wall, you can either adjust the size of the grout lines or arrange for the small piece to be on the end that shows least...or do both. If the tile needs to be cut on an angle, then do it.
> Another option would be to use a mosaic border around the room so that the smaller tiles might hide the angles. But I think that would be more work than it's worth, and the mosaics would still have to be cut on an angle.



Yes, that is the procedure for one room. But this is a whole house, and once I set the first tile, the grid is set. I did a lot of measurements and a lot of math to eliminate small pieces of tile near the walls. But that was before I realized the whole house was out of square. So now I'm using the same measurements and hoping they eliminate small trapezoid, rather than small rectangles.

I literally can't make accurate measurements of where the tiles will be if the house is not square. And I am not doing a dry run of the whole house.

I'm ready to start tomorrow with the lines I've made.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Jan 1, 2018)

I had a problem with mixing the thinset. I started with my 20V DeWalt drill. It worked okay, but then gave out. I think it was asking too much of that drill. Then, went to my plug in Ironton drill. I didn't have the chuck entirely tightened, but the thickness of the thinset held the paddle in place. The problem was that there was so much torque involved that I felt like my arm or wrist would break if something went wrong. I ran it on low speed for a while, but this wasn't enough to mix everything. I ended up mixing it by hand with the paddle and a piece of wood. It came out good, but that's no long term plan. Any suggestions?

Also, do I remove toilets and tile underneath them?


----------



## Snoonyb (Jan 1, 2018)

It's, again, all part of the learning curve.

When you asked about the DEWALT, my response was in small quantities.

I use a Milwaukee Hole Hog, because quality leads to efficiency.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Jan 1, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> It's, again, all part of the learning curve.
> 
> When you asked about the DEWALT, my response was in small quantities.
> 
> I use a Milwaukee Hole Hog, because quality leads to efficiency.



I guess I should return that Ironton then, and buy the Hole Hog.

I have a few more questions if you don't mind:

1. I was advised by Google to flatten tiles with a rubber mallet. Do you agree? The slab is flat, the tile is flat, so the only reason for tiles that are not level with each other is uneven distribution of thinset. Correct?

2. Should I be using 5 spacers at every intersection? Like the pic attached? I think I put about 2-3 inches from the corner to the the spacer. Is there a standard distance I should use?

3. When it's time to clean the joints (after 24 hours), do I need to clean all the way to the concrete? How do I remove the thinset that has dried by now? And wouldn't the spacers have cemented in place? This is literally my FIRST DAY I've ever laid tile.

4. How do I clean the surface of the tiles of dried thinset? I know I was supposed to use a wet sponge to clean as I went, which I did... But I also left some thinset to dry on the surface of the tile just to purposefully make it difficult for myself tomorrow so I could learn how to remove it.

5. Around the edges of what I laid today, there is several inches of thinset that will dry without a tile on top of it. Should I not have left this? How do I remove this tomorrow? Should I have cleaned all this while it was wet down to the bare concrete?

6. There is a UPC barcode on the back of nearly every individual tile. Should I remove this prior to installation? Would it interfere with proper bonding?

7. How do I see my chalk line after I spread the thinset? My method today involved ruining a 3' metal yardstick.

Either way, here's what I got done today.


----------



## Snoonyb (Jan 1, 2018)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I guess I should return that Ironton then, and buy the Hole Hog.



For the DEWALT you could invest in a couple of 2 packs of the large LI batteries, which you'll probably need when you install your cabinets, and which will be less than a Hole Hog.

My HOG is 25yrs. old and other than brushes, a cord, re-greasing and a new chuck, keeps on truckin.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> 1. I was advised by Google to flatten tiles with a rubber mallet. Do you agree? The slab is flat, the tile is flat, so the only reason for tiles that are not level with each other is uneven distribution of thinset. Correct?



It appears that you are using a notched trowel, and the evenness as well as the consistency of the thinset spread are key to eliminating tamping.

Because Tile isn't my only trade, I set the first row and walk away for a couple hours and return with a masons level. Sometimes I'll use the head of the mallet and sometimes the butt end of the handle.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> 2. Should I be using 5 spacers at every intersection? Like the pic attached? I think I put about 2-3 inches from the corner to the the spacer. Is there a standard distance I should use?



You use as many as it takes to maintain straight lines.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> 3. When it's time to clean the joints (after 24 hours), do I need to clean all the way to the concrete?



No. If the grout line are full of thinset then you need to use more caution in the application process. There is a grout removal tool which resembles a long handled church key.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> How do I remove the thinset that has dried by now? And wouldn't the spacers have cemented in place? This is literally my FIRST DAY I've ever laid tile.





farmerjohn1324 said:


> 4. How do I clean the surface of the tiles of dried thinset? I know I was supposed to use a wet sponge to clean as I went, which I did... But I also left some thinset to dry on the surface of the tile just to purposefully make it difficult for myself tomorrow so I could learn how to remove it.



I use a razor scraper.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> 5. Around the edges of what I laid today, there is several inches of thinset that will dry without a tile on top of it. Should I not have left this? How do I remove this tomorrow? Should I have cleaned all this while it was wet down to the bare concrete?



It should have been removed when it was wet. Now you get to carefully scrape it up without disturbing the tile.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> 6. There is a UPC barcode on the back of nearly every individual tile. Should I remove this prior to installation? Would it interfere with proper bonding?



No, you have enough bonding surface.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> 7. How do I see my chalk line after I spread the thinset? My method today involved ruining a 3' metal yardstick.



Notched trowels have a straight edge and you hold the thinset 1/4" away from your chalkline, so you can follow it.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Jan 2, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> For the DEWALT you could invest in a couple of 2 packs of the large LI batteries, which you'll probably need when you install your cabinets, and which will be less than a Hole Hog.
> 
> My HOG is 25yrs. old and other than brushes, a cord, re-greasing and a new chuck, keeps on truckin.
> 
> ...



#5...

With a razor scraper?


----------



## Gary (Jan 2, 2018)

We took a weekend trip this past weekend and I thought of this thread when I was in a restaurant rest room. The tile was 12". First row along the wall looked to be about 9 or 10'' wide and the opposite wall had a 1" row. It would have looked so much better if they had spent some time measuring first.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Jan 2, 2018)

Gary said:


> We took a weekend trip this past weekend and I thought of this thread when I was in a restaurant rest room. The tile was 12". First row along the wall looked to be about 9 or 10'' wide and the opposite wall had a 1" row. It would have looked so much better if they had spent some time measuring first.



I've been noticing things like that everywhere I go.

Not in residences, but restaurants.


----------



## Snoonyb (Jan 2, 2018)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> #5...
> 
> With a razor scraper?



It's a single edge razor blade in a retractable metal handle or a plastic folding, and found in the paint dept.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Jan 2, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> It's a single edge razor blade in a retractable metal handle or a plastic folding, and found in the paint dept.



I asked if I do #5 (remove thinset from concrete) with a razor scraper, just like I do for the top of the tile.

I didn't ask what a razor scraper was.

But I think I would need a heavy duty scraper for that.


----------



## Snoonyb (Jan 2, 2018)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I've been noticing things like that everywhere I go.
> 
> Not in residences, but restaurants.



Some of that has to do with the floor drain.


----------



## nealtw (Jan 2, 2018)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> I've been noticing things like that everywhere I go.
> 
> Not in residences, but restaurants.



Now that you have looked and discussed it, you will look at every tile job you come across for the rest of you life. 

And that is why you measure from wall to wall both sides and ends of a room to see if opposing walls are the same, will a parallel line with the transition actually be parallel. Do yo start beside the center line or do you center the first tile over the line.
The more we screw up the first tile job, the beteer you will be for the rest of our life.:trophy:


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Jan 2, 2018)

nealtw said:


> Now that you have looked and discussed it, you will look at every tile job you come across for the rest of you life.
> 
> And that is why you measure from wall to wall both sides and ends of a room to see if opposing walls are the same, will a parallel line with the transition actually be parallel. Do yo start beside the center line or do you center the first tile over the line.
> The more we screw up the first tile job, the beteer you will be for the rest of our life.:trophy:



Look at this nonsense in Dunkin' Donuts.


----------



## nealtw (Jan 2, 2018)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Look at this nonsense in Dunkin' Donuts.



Like I said, you are stuck now looking at every tile job.

That tile job would be fine if you weren't staring at it to see the fit and finish.:rofl:.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Jan 3, 2018)

Do I remove toilets before I tile? Or tile around them?


----------



## Snoonyb (Jan 3, 2018)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Do I remove toilets before I tile? Or tile around them?



You pull the WC and extend the closet rings to the height of the finished floor.

Actually, that "nonsense" at dunkin-donuts, is only nonsense, until you attempt to replicate it yourself, and you find out how difficult it was, as well as the cost of the tool used, will you realize the talent of the professional.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Jan 3, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> You pull the WC and extend the closet rings to the height of the finished floor.
> 
> Actually, that "nonsense" at dunkin-donuts, is only nonsense, until you attempt to replicate it yourself, and you find out how difficult it was, as well as the cost of the tool used, will you realize the talent of the professional.



So it was the design to make the floor look like that? Seems strange that they wouldn't go for a more normal shape.


----------



## Snoonyb (Jan 3, 2018)

The grout lines follow and the large triangle intersects the corner of the structure.


----------



## Gary (Jan 3, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> The grout lines follow and the large triangle intersects the corner of the structure.



Without seeing the whole room, my guess is they have a gray boarder row going round the perimeter of the room as an accent.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Jan 3, 2018)

Day 2 of tile:

1. How does my thinset spreading technique look? Pic attached.

2. Do you recommend laying 1 tile at a time, then putting in spacers, then on to the 2nd tile? Or is it okay to put down 3 tiles, then put in the spacers for all 3 at once?

4. I forgot to take a picture, but I put some tiles down the right side of the room, some down the left, then I tried to fill in the gaps in between and they did not match up. Luckily, they met in an area that will be covered by the center island, so it will not show. What should I be doing to correct my alignment? I'm using spacers and eyeballing it to see if it looks straight. Should I be using a level or something?

5. Towards the end, I noticed my thinset had rocks in it. I think this may be because it was sitting for about an hour. I read to use it all within 20-30 minutes. Is this correct? It may be hard to stick to this if I'm making cuts while laying tile.

6. I have left A LOT of thinset hardened in the grout lines. What tool do I remove this with?


----------



## nealtw (Jan 3, 2018)

Now you know why you put a line down the center of a room and follow the line and work away from the center. 
Do your full tile first then cut all the pieces and finish laying them after. 
Throw old mud out when you get to 30 min.
Putting a few down and then spacing is fine if that works for you,


----------



## Snoonyb (Jan 3, 2018)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> 1. How does my thinset spreading technique look? Pic attached.



It looks better. I use a dia or half circle.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> 2. Do you recommend laying 1 tile at a time, then putting in spacers, then on to the 2nd tile? Or is it okay to put down 3 tiles, then put in the spacers for all 3 at once?



You can set multiple tiles, then space, then level/tamp and adjust.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> 4. I forgot to take a picture, but I put some tiles down the right side of the room, some down the left, then I tried to fill in the gaps in between and they did not match up. Luckily, they met in an area that will be covered by the center island, so it will not show. What should I be doing to correct my alignment? I'm using spacers and eyeballing it to see if it looks straight. Should I be using a level or something?



Pick a starting point and work out from there. Don't pillar to post.



farmerjohn1324 said:


> 5. Towards the end, I noticed my thinset had rocks in it. I think this may be because it was sitting for about an hour. I read to use it all within 20-30 minutes. Is this correct? It may be hard to stick to this if I'm making cuts while laying tile.



Discard the lumps.

You can re-temper your thinset.

You lay all your field tile, then cut all your border tile, then set them.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Jan 3, 2018)

nealtw said:


> Now you know why you put a line down the center of a room and follow the line and work away from the center.
> Do your full tile first then cut all the pieces and finish laying them after.
> Throw old mud out when you get to 30 min.
> Putting a few down and then spacing is fine if that works for you,



You mean I should start every room with a cross? One vertical row and one horizontal row?


----------



## Snoonyb (Jan 3, 2018)

Do you remember the purpose of sentence #2 & 3?

You run your field from a single adjusted line.


----------



## nealtw (Jan 3, 2018)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> You mean I should start every room with a cross? One vertical row and one horizontal row?



Yes for the most part. Find the center of all for walls and snap a line with a chauk line. Once you have done that you can measure to where the tile will meet other floors and decide which is more important. Square in the room or parallel to another room.
You can also check to see if the two lines are square with each other by using the 3 4 5  or the 6 8 10. 

Measure from the center out from center on one line 3 ft the  other line 4 ft and the distance between those two marks should be 5 ft.

If you were using 12" tile in a room 12 ft 2" you would end up with two sides both 1" slivers. So you center the first tile on the line and you end with the side pieces each 7"

You find things screwed up in most rooms so the trick is understanding what will look funny or wrong and make adjustment for them before you start.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Jan 3, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> Do you remember the purpose of sentence #2 & 3?
> 
> You run your field from a single adjusted line.



And even with these perfectly straight chalk lines, it still comes out unsquare. Should I be doing something more than just eyeballing it with the spacers?


----------



## nealtw (Jan 3, 2018)

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QEwAutt3qc[/ame]


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Jan 3, 2018)

nealtw said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QEwAutt3qc



Yea I get that. And I'm telling you that even when following the chalk lines to start, it came out with tiles not all square to each other. I'm just using spacers and eyeballing. Anything else I could be doing.


----------



## nealtw (Jan 3, 2018)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Yea I get that. And I'm telling you that even when following the chalk lines to start, it came out with tiles not all square to each other. I'm just using spacers and eyeballing. Anything else I could be doing.



Sometimes tile are not square or even all the same size, then you have to fake it. Are you checking the back to make sure you have them all running in the same direction?


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Jan 7, 2018)

Can this cut circles in tile? I remember buying it because I was told it could, but now looking at the packaging, it doesn't mention ceramic specifically.


----------



## nealtw (Jan 7, 2018)

I think that is for drywall.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Jan 7, 2018)

nealtw said:


> I think that is for drywall.



What type bit cuts tile? Carbide not good enough? Need diamond?


----------



## Snoonyb (Jan 7, 2018)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> Can this cut circles in tile? I remember buying it because I was told it could, but now looking at the packaging, it doesn't mention ceramic specifically.



Read the package, it says, clearly, *wood, drywall and plastic.*


----------



## Snoonyb (Jan 7, 2018)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> What type bit cuts tile? Carbide not good enough? Need diamond?



There are a number of different hole saws for tile and hard surface products.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Jan 8, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> Read the package, it says, clearly, *wood, drywall and plastic.*



But the description on the website says "for cutting tile."

https://m.harborfreight.com/carbide...r-68117.html?utm_referrer=direct/not provided


----------



## nealtw (Jan 8, 2018)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> But the description on the website says "for cutting tile."
> 
> https://m.harborfreight.com/carbide...r-68117.html?utm_referrer=direct/not provided



ceiling tile.much like compressed paper.


----------



## Snoonyb (Jan 8, 2018)

But it does not say "ceramic or porcelain" tile.

You have boxes of them, and cut offs, so you have lots of material to try.

Change the pilot bit to a masonry bit before you try.

Then try a piece of VCT, vinyl composition tile, by Armstrong, in the flooring dept., of home desperado.

Or ceiling tile by the same mfg. just different dept.


----------



## farmerjohn1324 (Jan 9, 2018)

How do I move this water heater out of the way to tile under it?

Would be easy if it were PVC connections, but it's copper.


----------



## Snoonyb (Jan 9, 2018)

Who installed it and what is the purpose of the black tape?


----------



## nealtw (Jan 9, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> Who installed it and what is the purpose of the black tape?



https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.12-inch-pex-crimp-ring.1000144945.html


----------



## Snoonyb (Jan 9, 2018)

Thanks.
Interesting!

I've never used white pex, because color defines use.


----------



## Snoonyb (Jan 9, 2018)

farmerjohn1324 said:


> How do I move this water heater out of the way to tile under it?
> 
> Would be easy if it were PVC connections, but it's copper.



It appears that there shark-bite fittings at the connections to the copper, so turn the WH off, drain, disconnect and move. You'll need the water off until you reset, unless you cap the lines.


----------



## slownsteady (Jan 15, 2018)

Just catching up on this thread> So, Farmerjohn; how did the project turn out? pictures please!


----------

