# Wood siding atop of mansonite



## tk3000 (Jul 31, 2016)

Hello Folks, 
As some of you know my house (house itself has masonry/concrete exterior walls) has an all season room addition that was and still is in a state of disrepair. About a year ago I repaired some major roof damage and leaks (sheathing, epdm, etc). Recently I also happened to address some rotten and deteriorating 2x4 sole plate and studs issues as shown below: 







 (removed siding consisting on 3/4 wood from lower corner, and washed it with bleach)






 (inside view with sole plate already removed)






 (then I rammed and butted the new section of lumber to the existing sole plate) 






 (other corner with bottom siding mostly installed)

The old siding is made out of mansonite  popular during 70s  feels like high density  cardboard, and in spite of the painting be peeling off it is in solid shape. Currently, I am installing groove and tongue wood boards. In the bottom I added ½ rigid insulation , then wrapped that bottom section with construction housewrapper. 

The lower   lower portion of the siding is made of ¾ wood (not sure what it is called) and at some point the concrete slab at the bottom gets uneven which made the new  wood siding planks uneven with each other thus  creating unsightful gaps and misalignment, so I used a compass to transfer the unevenness of the slab to the bottom of the new tongue and groove wood siding plank and then cutted the line with a jigsaw and circular saw.


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## tk3000 (Jul 31, 2016)

CONTINUATION...











 (after cutting the inscribed line at the bottom of the siding plank)

The point is that behind the mansonite is hardboard and if I was to remove all the mansonite it would tons of works and likely would require me to remove the hardboard too since it would break during the removal process. So I was wondering it it would be ok to simply install the tongue and groove plank siding on top of the upper and remainder of the siding.

Incidentally all the windows will be sunk, and so will be the trim around doors, etc.  But that could be worked out. For the windows I plan on using something like the following: 






Any ideas and insights would be appreciated.


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## nealtw (Jul 31, 2016)

I am not sure I can add a good answer to your question but as usual I look past the question and see things I would have done differently.
I know you are just fixing up a porch but my thoughts are also for others reading this.
The sill plate should always be protected with sill gasket or similar from the concrete as water wicks up from below.
Close proximity to the ground I would have also used treated lumber to discourage insects.
The new house wrap should have been tucked under the tar paper and taped and under the window flange and not taped.
As water wicks thru concrete easily the metal flashing might have been extended to cover all the concrete.


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## tk3000 (Jul 31, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I am not sure I can add a good answer to your question but as usual I look past the question and see things I would have done differently.
> I know you are just fixing up a porch but my thoughts are also for others reading this.
> The sill plate should always be protected with sill gasket or similar from the concrete as water wicks up from below.
> Close proximity to the ground I would have also used treated lumber to discourage insects.
> ...



Hmmm.. Good to know. But I though this was pressure treated lumber, it seems that it had the treated lumber label even though it does not look like it. 

This is not necessary the porch, the all season room. I am still working on the porch's roof though (I will post soon). I would tuck it under the windows if it had where to tuck it in, but the windows are already installed and there is nowhere to tuck it in. 

I only used rigid insulation+house wrap at the bottom (that is also where most cold air concentrates and penetrates into structures). From that point on I am considering simply install the wood siding on top of the old mansonite (so the mansonite would be a substrate for the new sidind). Maybe I could use flashing around the windows for extra protection?


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## GBR (Jul 31, 2016)

Being a tight fit like that, IMO, paint a waterproof sealer on the concrete before adding the new mud sill. Bend the new flash 110* to help drainage and add some caulking under it before install. Add some sticky window flash to the sides, not the bottom. Add head flash to the tops, with end dams, *page 8;* http://www.mtcc1170.com/images/BCRainScreen.pdf

To meet minimum safety code, the new windows will require safety glazing being so low to the ground.

Gary


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## joecaption (Aug 1, 2016)

No way would I be doing it that way!
Someone has tried adding that concrete beyond that slab to address water getting in under the wall, never going to happen.
No way should siding be within 6" of any grade!
That paper thin flashing is a total waste of time.
All that old siding needs to go!
Old windows need to come out to do this right.


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## tk3000 (Aug 3, 2016)

nealtw said:


> I am not sure I can add a good answer to your question but as usual I look past the question and see things I would have done differently.
> I know you are just fixing up a porch but my thoughts are also for others reading this.
> The sill plate should always be protected with sill gasket or similar from the concrete as water wicks up from below.
> Close proximity to the ground I would have also used treated lumber to discourage insects.
> ...



Water penetration is always an issue especially with wood framing. To make matters worse the absence of gutters on this season room's roof means water pour there at large whenever there is a downpour, and not only does the water falls there but it seems to get trapped there.  And even though the concree slab of this addition is above grade, could the water seeps through, saturate and emerge as spots of moisture on the concrete slab inside the room? Could adding a concrete walkway in front of the slab, and sealing it (together with gutters above) address the issue?

thk


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## nealtw (Aug 3, 2016)

You are up against it when you have a room built on any slab, like Joe said you should have 6 or 8" of foundation showing below the siding.
The concrete out side the footprint will get wet and in the winter when it is warm inside moisture will wick in to the warm area.
With water like that hitting the wall the windows should be pulled and installed with the newest method ( waterscreening). If that is not in the card right now I would pull the siding and at least tape as Joe saide and trim the window with 1x4 wood or ? and install a drip edge above the window and above the upper trim. Then if you want to re and re the windows later, the trim makes that easy.
Can you pull the nails out of the bottom flange of the windows and slip something up under and over your wrap?
Perhaps some waterproofing paint on that concrete would help???


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## tk3000 (Aug 3, 2016)

GBR said:


> Being a tight fit like that, IMO, paint a waterproof sealer on the concrete before adding the new mud sill. Bend the new flash 110* to help drainage and add some caulking under it before install. Add some sticky window flash to the sides, not the bottom. Add head flash to the tops, with end dams, *page 8;* http://www.mtcc1170.com/images/BCRainScreen.pdf
> 
> To meet minimum safety code, the new windows will require safety glazing being so low to the ground.
> 
> Gary



I am adding a relatively small 2x4 to replace the bad portion of the sill plate. This 2x4 is rated for contact with the ground. If I was going to replace the whole sill plate then it would make more sense to use another protection between the sill plate and the concrete, but I fail to see the large benefit of doing it with a such a small piece; but I certainly can paint this ground portion with a sealer just for kicks.  

What do you mean by bending at 110*? I am adding pvc trim below and caulking everthing for a tight seal.  By safety glazing the windows you mean replacing the glass for tempered glass?

thks!


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## tk3000 (Aug 3, 2016)

joecaption said:


> No way would I be doing it that way!
> Someone has tried adding that concrete beyond that slab to address water getting in under the wall, never going to happen.
> No way should siding be within 6" of any grade!
> That paper thin flashing is a total waste of time.
> ...



I am not trying to make it perfect, just to make it better. Sometimes it seems easier to build something anew than fix an old one. To do everything you said I would have to remove all the old siding, hardboard sheathing, inside wood panels, insulation, etc..

By grade you mean soil? If more concrete is added (small walkway) wouldn't that helpp?

thks


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## GBR (Aug 3, 2016)

"I am adding a relatively small 2x4 to replace the bad portion of the sill plate. This 2x4 is rated for contact with the ground. If I was going to replace the whole sill plate then it would make more sense to use another protection between the sill plate and the concrete, but I fail to see the large benefit of doing it with a such a small piece; but I certainly can paint this ground portion with a sealer just for kicks. "------ yes, since there is no poly. foam sill sealer to stop the wood from wicking moisture out of the slab/ground, that was my substitute fix; http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...ressure-treated-sill-plates-and-building-code  That piece may not rot... 

"What do you mean by bending at 110*? I am adding pvc trim below and caulking everthing for a tight seal. By safety glazing the windows you mean replacing the glass for tempered glass?"------- yes, 110* is an over-bend to get the flashing under your bottom piece of PVC trim to sit tight to the sloping concrete, with caulking/roof tar under it. You need at least 2" of space from siding to walkway for splash, and safety glazing when within  18" of floor and etc.; http://homeguides.sfgate.com/residential-building-codes-safety-glass-76289.html

Gary


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## tk3000 (Aug 4, 2016)

GBR said:


> "I am adding a relatively small 2x4 to replace the bad portion of the sill plate. This 2x4 is rated for contact with the ground. If I was going to replace the whole sill plate then it would make more sense to use another protection between the sill plate and the concrete, but I fail to see the large benefit of doing it with a such a small piece; but I certainly can paint this ground portion with a sealer just for kicks. "------ yes, since there is no poly. foam sill sealer to stop the wood from wicking moisture out of the slab/ground, that was my substitute fix; http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...ressure-treated-sill-plates-and-building-code  That piece may not rot...
> 
> "What do you mean by bending at 110*? I am adding pvc trim below and caulking everthing for a tight seal. By safety glazing the windows you mean replacing the glass for tempered glass?"------- yes, 110* is an over-bend to get the flashing under your bottom piece of PVC trim to sit tight to the sloping concrete, with caulking/roof tar under it. You need at least 2" of space from siding to walkway for splash, and safety glazing when within  18" of floor and etc.; http://homeguides.sfgate.com/residential-building-codes-safety-glass-76289.html
> 
> Gary



I would use the sill plate foam if it was a larger piece, but this is only 1 ft piece and as indicated before it is pressure treated. The article mentioning the moisture wicking through and upwards beyond the pressure treated bottom thus adding moisture content tot he non-pressure treated studs, etc makes  a good point, and that is why I always like to use cedar or pressure treated lumber even in interior wood framing. 

I used a bender (from harborfreight) to bend the small section of flashing, then use some weights to adjust the bend while installing then for a dry fitting, and once it has reached the right bend and conformation I simply apply caulk liberally under (contact with the slab) and on top of the flashing (contact with the sheathing). Maybe creating a small concrete walkway slightly sloped besides the siding would help reduce the moisture transfer to the interior of the slab and to the wood framing.

thks!


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## tk3000 (Aug 4, 2016)

nealtw said:


> You are up against it when you have a room built on any slab, like Joe said you should have 6 or 8" of foundation showing below the siding.
> The concrete out side the footprint will get wet and in the winter when it is warm inside moisture will wick in to the warm area.
> With water like that hitting the wall the windows should be pulled and installed with the newest method ( waterscreening). If that is not in the card right now I would pull the siding and at least tape as Joe saide and trim the window with 1x4 wood or ? and install a drip edge above the window and above the upper trim. Then if you want to re and re the windows later, the trim makes that easy.
> Can you pull the nails out of the bottom flange of the windows and slip something up under and over your wrap?
> ...


=> yeah, that is a good idea. Part of the house itself (duplex) is under a slab and also below grade, so by being vacant and abandonened and also subject to dilapidation (gutters pullled out from that part) water infiltrated through the exterior concrete walls and caused weakhavoc in the wood framing structure (mostly sole plates) over time. Now gutters were installed there and parts of the concrete walls were water sealed from the inside. 

In terms of the concrete near the siding of the addition, in the past (mostly for aesthetic reasons) I added some concrete to cover the uneven concrete poured there:


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## nealtw (Aug 4, 2016)

That's not good, if you have any more work on sills I would cut the wall up and install a row of cmu blocks.


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## tk3000 (Aug 7, 2016)

nealtw said:


> That's not good, if you have any more work on sills I would cut the wall up and install a row of cmu blocks.



I am mostly done with the sills. But, it is not clear what a row of cmu blocks would mean? 
thks


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## slownsteady (Aug 7, 2016)

CMU= concrete modular units ( or something like that) formerly known as "cinder blocks" . if that is what you are asking.

And I would add in addition to all the advice from the carpenters....add a gutter to this area to reduce the amount of water to deal with.


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## tk3000 (Aug 7, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> CMU= concrete modular units ( or something like that) formerly known as "cinder blocks" . if that is what you are asking.
> 
> And I would add in addition to all the advice from the carpenters....add a gutter to this area to reduce the amount of water to deal with.



Hmm. I realize that cmu means a concrete block. But it not clear what I would do with them. Use them as pavers? 

Yep, gutters are my next step


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## slownsteady (Aug 7, 2016)

Ok, now that we have that cleared up... Hope i didn't offend you.


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## nealtw (Aug 7, 2016)

tk3000 said:


> I am mostly done with the sills. But, it is not clear what a row of cmu blocks would mean?
> thks



Too bad we didn't talk earlier about it cmus are 8x8x 16.


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## tk3000 (Aug 7, 2016)

slownsteady said:


> Ok, now that we have that cleared up... Hope i didn't offend you.



No offense taken!


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## nealtw (Aug 7, 2016)

tk3000 said:


> Hmm. I realize that cmu means a concrete block. But it not clear what I would do with them. Use them as pavers?
> 
> Yep, gutters are my next step



If you are replacing bottom sill plate anyway you hold the roof up cut the studs add CMUs like a foundation wall and replace the sill on top of that.


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## tk3000 (Aug 8, 2016)

nealtw said:


> If you are replacing bottom sill plate anyway you hold the roof up cut the studs add CMUs like a foundation wall and replace the sill on top of that.



That would be too much work because I was only replacing a small segment of the sill plate that was rotten, damaged, and weak; and not the whole sill plate.


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