# Replacing junction box with receptacle



## tekmonkey (Nov 30, 2015)

I've got this odd junction box in my finished basement (actually I've got three just like this one): 










There appears to be three existing wires coming into the box.

Wire 1 (top left): Black 1 to Black 2/3. White 1 by itself (yellow wire nut). Ground 1 to Ground 2/3.
Wire 2 (bottom left): Black 2 to Black 1/3. White 2 to White 3. Ground 2 to Ground 1/3.
Wire 3 (right): Black 3 to Black 1/2. White 3 to White 2. Ground 3 to Ground 1/2.

I'm not sure where all these junctions lead to and don't really have the capacity to trace them easily. None of them appear to be switched.

I would like to add an outlet receptacle at this location (to power a ceiling projector). What's the easiest way to do this?
Should I yank this box out and put in a new (larger to accommodate all the connections?) gang box where I can reconnect these existing connections, and tap in a new receptacle?


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## nealtw (Nov 30, 2015)

This looks like it was a light where the black goes to the swtich and the white comes back to the light and there would have been another white from the light to the other whites. I would change the box just because there are no groumet protecting the wires. You could wire up a light to find that switch and if you want to find the rest disconnect one set and see what all goes out.


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## slownsteady (Nov 30, 2015)

I wouldn't add anything here until I knew what was in this box already. Disconnect the black wires and see what goes out. One of those black wires will be the hot line. reconnect two of the black wires and see what lights up (or powers on). Do the same for the third wire. Write down the results for future reference. If you're convinced that it's a safe enough circuit to support your projector, you can find a surface-mount cover that will allow you to put a receptacle there.


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## tekmonkey (Nov 30, 2015)

nealtw said:


> This looks like it was a light where the black goes to the swtich and the white comes back to the light and there would have been another white from the light to the other whites. I would change the box just because there are no groumet protecting the wires. You could wire up a light to find that switch and if you want to find the rest disconnect one set and see what all goes out.



Ah, that makes sense. I've got about 3 "mystery" switches in the basement which don't do anything. I stuck a non-contact voltage tester into each of the boxes and tried flipping all the switches but they stayed hot. I guess it might have been better to stick my multimeter on each of the individual connections, as the NC voltage tester was not as precise.

So which wire would be coming from the switch? The one with the unconnected neutral?


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## nealtw (Dec 1, 2015)

If I was right that white by itself is hot like a black and should have been marked as black maybe under the paint. But power would be coming in from one of the other blacks.


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## tekmonkey (Dec 1, 2015)

nealtw said:


> If I was right that white by itself is hot like a black and should have been marked as black maybe under the paint. But power would be coming in from one of the other blacks.



I just tested them and flipped all of my switches to various states. The white by itself stayed hot no matter what (as did all the blacks).

The two white/neutrals that were connected (wire 2 and wire 3) were never hot with any position I flipped the switched (tested using a non-contact voltage tester).


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## nealtw (Dec 1, 2015)

Turn off the breaker, remove the black that goes with that white and nut that white and black together replace the other nut and turn on the power, see what didn't come on.


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## tekmonkey (Dec 1, 2015)

nealtw said:


> Turn off the breaker, remove the black that goes with that white and nut that white and black together replace the other nut and turn on the power, see what didn't come on.



If the white is hot and the black is hot, wouldn't nutting them together create a problem?


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## nealtw (Dec 1, 2015)

If you remove that black from the rest they should both be dead, if it is a dead short the breaker will not re-set.


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## bud16415 (Dec 1, 2015)

I have my projector along with all my home theater electronics running off a battery backup, surge protection, conditioned  power supply. You will need to get other cables up there as well HDMI and such also. You might want to look at it all and run a conduit and add a larger box if you pick up power there or not.  I also don&#8217;t like that they used a metal box and just have the wires coming in the holes without clamps.


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## CallMeVilla (Dec 1, 2015)

With multiple boxes it could be there was a 3-way switch setup at some time.  You should be testing more than one switch to see if it impacts the white as HOT.  It is drawing power from someplace.

Also, if you are mounting a projector, does it have CATV or HDMI inputs?  If so, you will have to prep the hole for that cabling too.  You might be looking at adding a specialty box to the side and keeping the existing as a j-box.  We have discussed this frequently here and I put them in all the time ....  There are many designs but here is a place to start.  http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012DMBGA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## Snoonyb (Dec 1, 2015)

tekmonkey said:


> I've got this odd junction box in my finished basement (actually I've got three just like this one):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First of all, depending solely upon a proximity voltage sensor, will substantially reduce your chances of arriving at a solution, until you remove the wire nut securing the black conductors, separating them and identify the hot pair.

Keep in mind, this may also be a "J" box feeding a plug circuit, so have a lamp ready to test those as well.

Then test the boxes where these errant switches are, eliminating those that you find an indication of voltage, as probably being fed from another source.

When you have Identified the hot pair, connect the black from the hot pair to one of the other conductors relieved by separating the conductors, and check for the presence of voltage at the switches and if the lamp lights.

Repeat for each separated conductor.


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## Snoonyb (Dec 1, 2015)

slownsteady said:


> You should really read the whole thread before answering. see post 3



I did, and expanded upon it to include the other probabilities which may be present, which were not expanded upon, in post 3.

What I believe was there, and eliminated, was a light fixture and it's switch leg,
given the octagon box, however, trouble shooting has a learning curve, and you only know, what you know.


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## nealtw (Dec 1, 2015)

He has three boxes like this, so it will take some investigating.


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## tk3000 (Dec 5, 2015)

I found out that a wire tracer can be very handy in this type of situation. It can be purchased fairly cheap and will get many uses. 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00279JLBQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## tekmonkey (Dec 5, 2015)

tk3000 said:


> I found out that a wire tracer can be very handy in this type of situation. It can be purchased fairly cheap and will get many uses.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00279JLBQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



Does that work for high-voltage electrical? It only mentions low voltage wiring (LAN, phone, cable, etc).


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## Snoonyb (Dec 5, 2015)

tekmonkey said:


> Does that work for high-voltage electrical? It only mentions low voltage wiring (LAN, phone, cable, etc).



If you read further into the description it also includes "non-electrified" conductors.

The tool is 2 part, a transmitter and a receiver, both battery operated.

Sperry also sells a circuit identifier which you plug into a recepticle,(the transmitter), and scan the service panel.(the receiver). to identify the circuit breaker that controls the circuit.


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## tk3000 (Dec 5, 2015)

tekmonkey said:


> Does that work for high-voltage electrical? It only mentions low voltage wiring (LAN, phone, cable, etc).



Yeah, it works with romex and electrical wires in general; but the wires must not be live. 

Some people argue that the fluke is better (less interference, crosstalking, etc). The fluke equivalent is not all that expensive either, the following: Fluke Networks 26000900 Pro3000


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