# Removing Moisture from double pane windows



## torontomix

There is a local company that will remove my moisture by drilling two holes in the window (opposite ends) then spray a chemical that basically eats the moisture from inside the window and plug up again.

Ive drilled glass before and I know how easy it is with the right tools (diamond drill bits etc etc)

My question is if anyone knows what this chemical is called? If they ever done anything like this before and any bumps they might have hit

Thanks guys
Dan


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## Square Eye

What do they do about the clouding on the glass after the moisture is removed? Is this something that cleans the glass or does this have to be done right away after noticing moisture?


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## triple D

I don't know if any gas can eat up moisture. But if they drill frames and dry out moisture inside, then they can re-charge gas in window. There is a pretty good chance that a spot somewhere on the spacer between the panes is leaking. If you don't find this and repair it you're wasting money. Good luck....


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## inspectorD

I covered this a long time ago.....let me look it up.
 Check it out... 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WWW.ccwwi.com




Is this what you are talking about? 
I think it sounds OK, but have no experience with their repairs.
Let us know if you do it, and how it works out.


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## ditalian

I work for a glass company and we replace thermal units all the time.

We actually do work for some of the companys that do these 'de foging' techneques and let me tell you they are completly bogus.

We have delt with many companies that have actually gone OUT OF BUSINESS doing this, it just isnt worth it. Most of the time its hard to tell if a piece of glass is tempered and they just have the glass shatter in there face while they are drilling into it. Thats when they usually call us in just to do the proper thing and replace the unit.

If the units fogged, its done its work, there guarenteed for 5 years and most of them last 20-25 years, dont just drill into it, its still old and failed, just replace the unit and be happy for the next 20 years.

My $0.02


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## inspectorD

You learn something every day. Thanks for the heads up. It would be nice if it worked , but like Square Eye said...I have my reservations on how to clean em up on the inside anyway.


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## glennjanie

Hello Torontomix:
In my past I worked at a factory that used truckloads of windows each month. Consequently, we had some breakage and some warranty replacement to take care of.

The window company we traded with used 2 pieces of common glass, cleaned, warmed and stuck to each side of an aluminum frame which held the glass apart. I have replaces broken glass and re-sealed several that had leaked and smoked up. By heating the glass before sticking it togather, I have actually seen glass show a bend twoard the middle. If that seal can be maintained over the years there will be no further problem.

Of course, this was before the introduction of argon and other gasses between the glass, so I didn't have to fool with any of that. My theory of warranty failure is this: those who needed replacement and re-sealing usually had their thermostats set very high in the house, some 80* or more while the outdoor temperature was at 20*, 0* or even below 0*. This drastic difference in temperature on each side had a lot to do with the seal failing because the window was built with the same temp on each side.

I loved the Andersen WindowWall built back in the '60s with welded glass panes in them. The glass was actually spaced apart and welded in place, no caulking or sealer involved. Andersen still does some of their windows by that method and once told me they had never had a failure with the welded glass.
Glenn


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## Oberon

When condensation forms inside of an IGU (Insulating Glass Unit) it means that there is a rupture in the seal and that air and moisture has penetrated the space - this is true in the almost all cases.  

The folks who claim that they can install a one-way valve in the IGU that will allow moisture to escape and dry out the interior of the space &#8211; thus eliminating moisture-caused condensation between the lites &#8211;  have some validity, but can you spell &#8220;gimmick&#8221;?

While their system will give the appearance of having eliminated the problem, in the right environmental conditions simply drilling a small hole in the glass, even without their cool one-way valve, can give the same results without the expense of the visit - again, in the right environmental conditions.  Now I am definitely NOT suggesting or recommending that anyone should try drilling a small hole in their IGU in order to &#8220;fix&#8221; it.  That was for example only.

Ultimately, a blown seal is an aesthetic issue.  An IGU with a seal rupture will have virtually the same energy performance as a sealed unit assuming that the original window did not have an argon gas fill.  If the IG had been argon filled, the blown seal has or will affect overall performance since the argon has escaped.  But in the case of a simple 2-pane clear glass IGU, the blown seal is not a performance issue. 

A blown seal allows outside air and moisture to penetrate the air space of the IGU.  This is generally a very slow process.  The &#8220;clean the inside of the IGU and stop the fogging&#8221; systems result in a much faster air exchange rate within the IGU space.  This rapid air exchange allows the air/moisture level in the interior of the IGU to more closely match the air/moisture level to the exterior.  

While physics 101 teaches us that warm goes to cold and moisture goes to dry, the &#8220;clean the inside of the IGU and stop the fogging&#8221; systems will help the interior of the IGU stay true to that idea.  Physics 101 also teaches us that warm air expands.  The one way valve does allow the expanded air to vacate the space taking much of the moisture with it.  The &#8220;clean the inside of the IGU and stop the fogging&#8221; call this process "IGU breathing" - or something similar.  It really does happen and it is the reason that the systems work.  But remember that it is a cosmetic "fix" and it still doesn't address the probelm of the bad seal.

Anyway, drying out the airspace helps the interior moisture level of the IGU to remain above the dew point thus preventing the formation of condensation on the glass surfaces between the lites.  Sounds like a good idea, but in some sense it is like placing a band-aid on a bleeding artery since it can cover without addressing the actual problem.

If the original IGU had argon fill, the gas is gone.  If the original window has a LowE coating, then that coating may eventually corrode.  The de-foggers will do nothing to prevent that.  The original moisture seal is still and the &#8220;fix&#8221; doesn&#8217;t address that issue in any way.   And IGU's cannot be successfully "recharged" with gas in the field, despite what some of the &#8220;clean the inside of the IGU and stop the fogging&#8221; companies claim.

And finally, this &#8220;fix&#8221; isn't necessarily cheap.  The &#8220;clean the inside of the IGU and stop the fogging&#8221; folks will tell potential customers that their process is cheaper than replacement, which it probably is, but as mentioned earlier, performance may be very dependent on environmental conditions.  Some people may use one of these systems and be 100% happy for years.  Other folks may see the same or other problems relatively soon after the "fix".

And finally again, remember that this is ultimately a cosmetic issue.  From an energy performance standpoint it doesn't have to be fixed right away.


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## howard184

My problem is already beyond moisture--there's mildew in the inside of the IGUs in question. So far I have not heard anything encouraging about the situation. 

What I have found out, or already knew:

--Most local shops that "fix" these windows just order a replacement IGU and trash the old one. They do not attempt to repair or re-seal existing units, because the windows have to be blown with dry gas during manufacture--argon, nitrogen or whatever--to ensure there's no moisture in the air inside. They can order replacement IGU's fairly quickly in pretty much any square or rectangular shape you need for typical residential window sizes. 

--Even assuming you could somehow re-blow the double-pane unit with argon, you cannot use silicone sealant to seal it, because _silicone sealant is water-vapor-permeable_ (even when cured) and humidity would just get in all over again. Ideally you would use butyl-rubber tape or butyl-rubber hot-melt glue. There is butyl-rubber caulk commonly available, but it gives off vapors during curing that *could* contaminate the inside glass as it cures (I haven't tried this yet, but I would guess it is a very real possibility. Other multi-layer windows I have seen [in industrial equipment] always used butyl _tape_ for sealing). 

--Semi-related: I have seen examples of home-made solar panels that were made by containing the cells between two sheets of glass. People wish to seal the panels to protect the cells from moisture & corrosion, but in that use, _trying to seal the glass almost never works_. Oddly enough--moisture seems to _accumulate_ in them over time, it gets in and doesn't want to leave. What is observed to work generally better is if you build a small vent at the top and bottom edges, allowing for a _very_ tiny amount of air circulation. _One vent does not work_: the "dry" air has to be able to come in at the bottom, and the warmer air and water vapor has to be able to rise out the top. This method also allows using silicone sealant, as the silicone does not need to maintain an air/waterproof seal, it only has to adhere and prevent liquid water from entering easily. Excess humidity gets driven out the vents on its own. 

Venting mine is what I plan to try, if it is possible. I won't be taking mine apart for a couple days more, so I won't know if it will be possible until I see what I have to deal with. At this point there's really not a lot to lose; the only other options is replacement (that I don't want to pay for a house I'm fixing up to sell) or stripping the windows down to single-panes somehow, which isn't much of a positive selling point either. :\  
~


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## vtw45

The process is very simple. Different Co's will say they use all kinds of different solutions. What works best is distilled water. Because it has been deionized it will pick up most if not all of the calcification on the inside of the glass, and when the evaporation in complete no residue.


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## WR888

I think the concept of providing "some" ventilation to a failed thermo pane window is worth a try. 
Does anyone know a supplier for these one-way valves?


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## Calreno

Do not go this route!!  We hired a local Calgary company (ClearVu Thermal) to fix 11 of our windows.  What they initially said made sense but the process does not work.  Every time the weather changes our windows fog up.  On some windows we have more moisture in them than we did before.  We have called them on their warranty and they are trying to wriggle out of a refund.  The bottom line is the companies that do this are selling a service that doesn't work!!  Now we are looking at replacing all the windows, so all that money we paid to this company has gone down the drain.  So either replace the entire window or just the glass unit.



torontomix said:


> There is a local company that will remove my moisture by drilling two holes in the window (opposite ends) then spray a chemical that basically eats the moisture from inside the window and plug up again.
> 
> Ive drilled glass before and I know how easy it is with the right tools (diamond drill bits etc etc)
> 
> My question is if anyone knows what this chemical is called? If they ever done anything like this before and any bumps they might have hit
> 
> Thanks guys
> Dan


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## dexter

Calreno said:


> Do not go this route!!  We hired a local Calgary company (ClearVu Thermal) to fix 11 of our windows.  What they initially said made sense but the process does not work.  Every time the weather changes our windows fog up.  On some windows we have more moisture in them than we did before.  We have called them on their warranty and they are trying to wriggle out of a refund.  The bottom line is the companies that do this are selling a service that doesn't work!!  Now we are looking at replacing all the windows, so all that money we paid to this company has gone down the drain.  So either replace the entire window or just the glass unit.


 I hired this same company 5 years ago to take the moisture out of 6 of my windows and to this day they are still clear and dry so the process must work somehow. As for the warranty, they came back to reinstall a small plastic valve that came off the glass 2 years ago no problem. Because my windows are wood framed, I do need to paint them every 2-3 years and make sure the caulking is in tip top shape, I believe this is part of the warranty requirement.


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## Calrenoguy

I had this company (clear vu thermal) over last month to do some repairs. My windows look great and haven't got wet at all. I was referred by a friend who had (clear vu thermal) over to do repairs 3 years ago. Her windows dry still dry to this date. I had the fog guy for a quote and he seemed very disinterested in doing the work and wasn't professional at all. It seemed as though he was trying to constantly undermine his competitors. Being a business professional myself I find that practice very unethical and although he claimed to cost less I would rather hire a company who are both professional and come highly recommended from a number of sources such as clear vu thermal.


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## Calreno

In reply to the person who had Clear Vu out to do their windows, you are lucky.  It has been a year and every window this company "fixed" has moisture, in fact in some cases there is more moisture now.  We had phoned the guy to come out and see the problem because they are supposed to warranty their service.  The owner Alan Ring was very unprofessional and gave us the run around.  We have issued a formal complaint with the BBB but all they could do was send us to mediation which again Mr. Ring tried desperatly to wriggle out of.  If your windows have moisture they need replacing.  That is the only solution.  This little vent system is a gimmick, waste of money and just doesn't work.  The only way I can see this system working is on a North facing window with very little sun exposure.  Do not hire Clear Vu it is a gimmick and it is unbelievable that these guys are still in business. As for our continuing problem, we are slowly replacing all the windows.  We are persuing legal action against this company.


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## everhart011

Thanks for sharing the information.


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## davidHandyman

Calreno said:


> Do not go this route!!  We hired a local Calgary company (ClearVu Thermal) to fix 11 of our windows.  What they initially said made sense but the process does not work.  Every time the weather changes our windows fog up.  On some windows we have more moisture in them than we did before.  We have called them on their warranty and they are trying to wriggle out of a refund.  The bottom line is the companies that do this are selling a service that doesn't work!!  Now we are looking at replacing all the windows, so all that money we paid to this company has gone down the drain.  So either replace the entire window or just the glass unit.



I agree I've had this done and it didn't work out well in my older home.  Maybe it was just the company I went with and their shoddy service.  But nowadays the vinyl windows are durable and temperature resistant they last many many years!  Better off replacing them with new age technology and materials than trying to bandaid fix old windows.


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## thermoklear

I am in the window installation and repair business and noticed there are a lot of people interested in this subject....and lots of misunderstandings on the subject.  So.......

How important is the seal in a sealed unit?    The seal is only there to keep the two interior surfaces of the glass unit clear and dry...the seal has very, very little to do with any insulating properties,  Double glazing gets some of its insulation properties from the air-space between the glass lites and some from the glass lites themselves.  BUT glass is a heat conductor!!  Cookware made by Pyrex, Corning and Anchor-Hocking is made of glass because in is an excellent heat conductor.  Each 3mm (1/8") thick lite of glass has an R-factor (insulating value) of about .65.  A half-inch airspace has an R-factor of .5, therefore an average sealed unit or IGU (insulating glass unit) has an R-Factor of about 1.8 which is usually rounded to 2.  Adding argon or krypton gas to the air-space adds about .2 R to the IGU.  When someone says their energy efficient windows have an R-factor of anything greater than 2 they are providing a result for an average size window that includes the framing and sashes.  When you ask what the R-factor is for any part of glass area in their window it is still about 2 -- give or take a little for the glass thickness and the width of the spacer bar. 

Pella windows look like they have a sealed unit but are actually a double-glazed unit with a removeable interior panel (new ones can be tripled-glazed with a dual-pane sealed unit as the exterior glazing) but they have four "breather holes" or vents between the glass panels instead of a "seal". The vent holes allow household moisture that gets into the space between the glass panels to escape to the outside atmosphere, Condensation may periodically appear on the interior surface of the outside pane of glass but the vent holes allow the moisure to escape.  Pella is viewed to be the best and their design is not a "gimmick"

The process of drilling and venting a "foggy" sealed unit is simply turning a failed sealed unit into a low cost variation of a Pella window.

The venting process will ALWAYS and PERMANENTLY dry out a sealed unit as long as *one condition* exists...Less moisture GETS IN thru the seal failure than GETS OUT thru the vent. The reason for this is Boyle's Law which states that gas (water vapour) densities will try to equalize (the water vapour density inside the "sealed unit" with water vapour density in the outside atmosphere).

If a "defogging" serviced IGU does not stay dry it is because more moisture gets in than escapes. The moisture inside the sealed unit almost always comes from inside the house although it can sometimes gets in past old or poorly done exterior caulking.  The standards organization for IGUs is IGMA (Insulating Glass Manufacturers Assoc.) and they specify that there should be drain holes provided below an installed IGU to drain any possible accumualtion of water.  Many window  maufacturers do not install drain holes because they detract from look of their window and then water collects where it can get into the IGU.

Calreno's problem is not with ClearVu, but with the humidity levels inside his home and the condition of the interior or exterio glazing of his windows. Those factors are allowing more moisture IN than gets OUT. The extent of the seal failure (what is often called a rupture) may have been too large to begin with.  In that situation a double vent may solve the problem.

The venting process is a repair that saves money and is green to boot. Glass is very energy intensive to make and transport, and glass in a landfill will last forever.

For best results with the drilling and venting process the "foggy" problem should b e addressed as soon as possible.  Counter-intuitively, the sooner a sealed unit is serviced with the preventive venting process the longer it will last.

We had a former Pella window sales rep do the venting to all the windows in a home he bought because he realized the advantages of doing it.


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## nopho

Ive been very interested in this technology and looking to add it to my window cleaning service. your answer definitely cleared things up for me. (no pun intended) ive deal with pella windows periodically and if they are facing the sun they will usually fog up due to moisture left behind from cleaning but always clear up several minutes later so what you you've explained about the venting process makes perfect sense. thanks again for posting!

"life of a window cleaner is just one pane after another."


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## liderbug

We have a bay window, 5 sections, 2 windows per section - ea 22x28.  Quote: "Sure, we'll remove the whole unit and replace it with $4,000 worth of new ....".  We're both retired and ... well... ain't an option.

So I'm thinking:  Make 1 new replacement.  Then swap out the first pane.  Disassemble and clean the original really good with stove top glass cleaner, vinegar, distilled water using newspaper & a hair dryer.  Throw the old aluminium away, install Super Spacer and new desiccant in the dividers and a covering of silicone.  Then swap for the next section and repeat.  I'd like to use Argon - minor problem - best quote I can get is $300 for an empty tank and $$$ to fill it.  Things that have gone through my mind:  I can get helium from the local party store for $15 - enough to do ... 500 windows.  I can get  difluoroethane (canned air - computers) at about the same price.  Is there anything else I could fill the windows with?

Thoughts? Gotcha's? 

Edgetech I.G. - Super Spacer Application Video

Thanks


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## liderbug

I've been thinking about what gas to use in a double pane and seems to me that it really doesn't mater what is used (within reason) as long as it's *dry*. And the dryer the better.  I'm thinking - I've got an old container of helium in the garage - as long as all (99.9%) of the H2O is expelled ..... and I've got a good seal ...


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## liderbug

Project under way - my replacement (non-perm) window is built and in place - what da L is the stuff they used to caulk the window into the frame?  Or maybe because it's 40 yrs old.  Anyway first one is swapped out - can someone give me a pointer on dis-assembling the window.  Got to think there is an easier way than what I just went through.

Thanks.


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## joecaption

Replace the whole sash and be done with it.


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## liderbug

The best quote I was able to get was $75 per window (not-installed) and there are 10 panes.  I (we) are retired and living on SS.  Could we go for sitting in a lawn chair watching someone else do it? Ya.  But that $750 is going to go towards a vacation or taxes or food, not windows.  If I can do the whole job for under $100, great.  If I can be green and not throw 10 windows in the dump, double great.  AND if I can do it myself - triple great :banana:


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## Perry525

The ever changing air pressure on panes of glass causes them to continually flex, eventually weakening and breaking the perimeter seal.
This flexing bellows effect causes the water vapor in the air to enter the space between the panes and create fogging and condensation. 
Water vapor always moves to cold and the inner surface of the outside pane is always colder.
Removing the window from the frame and drilling holes in the spacer will enable the water vapor to escape during hot weather, but as soon as it gets cold, the water vapor in the air will move inside and create more fog and condensation.
Once the water vapor has left, it is possible to reseal the glass to the spacer and block the new holes using the type of silicone used to make fish tanks.
I have used this system twice over the last forty years and each time it worked.
What the current situation with those windows is I do not know as I no longer own the property.


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## liderbug

Update on project - all 10 of my windows have a permanent fog.  (well only 7 now).  My MO is to cut the spacer at one corner with my saber saw (verrrry carefully) cut about a 2-3 inch slot down the middle of the spacer.  That allows the glass in the corner to flex, .002".  Just enough for my box cutter to get in and slice 3 sides loose (takes about 5 min), then stand the glass up and cut the 4th side loose.  For the other pane a pair of pliers twisting the spacer up & my box cutter and the other side is done in 1 min.   I've found my wood chisel does a good job of cleaning the old sealant off.  And I've decided 90% clean is just fine because it's going to be covered with new spacer & sealant.  I then use Stove Top Glass Cleaner (yes dear I will buy you a new bottle...) and go over all 4 surfaces with my 3/8 drill with buffing pad - med speed, then Windex and a microfiber shop rag.

If you watch the SuperSpacer video (above) I recreated the applicator tool from a 3" piece of 1x2.  It applies the spacer about 1/8" from the edge of the glass - very neatly if I do say so myself   I have noticed that the finished product is not as "fine" as "factory new" but then you have to get within 3" of the window to see the flake of something that got in as it was getting closed up - but then what's that word??? anal???  Film at 11.


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## liderbug

Moving along - 5 done with #6 ready for reassembly.  And I've found the leak(s) - on 4 of the 6 windows so far - 1 whole seam was not attached to the glass on 1 edge - I can stand the window up on the bench and with 2 index fingers open it up. - Great job guys.


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## Dave123

Liderbug,

Were you able to buy the "Superspacer" directly from the manufacture?  Did you have to buy a whole roll of seal (500 to 1500 ft)?  Thanks  Dave


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## liderbug

I've included 5 images in this post - assuming they display in order - #1 is _The Project_, our dinning room bay window.  Pls take note of all the white **** in the image on April 27th. *^@*^&!$#.  The bottom row is done - they were even treated to new screens - ooooooooo...... The first 3 on the top are done, #4 sitting in DR, which leaves #5.

Image 2&3 is my Superspacer app tool - a couple of inches of 1x2 - the first notch is for the glass and the second notch is 1/4"(minus) so as to press the SS to the glass as it slides along.  And a little metal finger to hold the SS in place.

Image 4 is another small hunk of 1x2 notched to the width of the finished window (+.001/2") so it will slide.  Then I epoxied a strip of metal to one end with 2 notches for the glass and part that fits between the glass that sticks down ?1/16(32)?" - see image 5.  

Edgetech sells only to wholesalers - which only sell to dist. - which only sell to retailers - I found one window place locally who would order it for me.  However ...  Ebay - search for [ edgetech spacer ] - same price I paid. - Only comes in 66' rolls at approx $1/ft - and I'm going to end up with about 40' left over (second roll) (on this project) It'll be fersale. 

I injected all of my windows with helium (because I had a left over tank sitting in the garage) - I figured it was "dry".  I ran across a web page - .. heat conductivity of various materials.  Silver was the best at 429, then Copper at 401, window glass at .96, etc.  Helium at .142, Nitrogen at .024 with Oxygen at .024 and (ta-da) Air at .024.  Argon at .016 and something called Carbon dioxide at .0146 the lowest.  Wonder where one could find that?  Anything to keep the Dihydrogen Monoxide (DMHO) out of my windows.

All I can think of right now - Oh, DO NOT lean a finished window against the house during windy weather - you'll end up in a realllllllllyyyyyyyyyyy foul mood!

Chuck


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## oldognewtrick

I'm interested in how you kept the helium in the air space of the panes.


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## liderbug

Sorry about that  - $15 10cf tank - party store - I sealed the window first then using a couple of ink needles (wife's ink jet refill kit) - stood the window up - one in the bottom, one in the top connected to the tank through the SS.  Very low valve open - very light sssssssss for about 5 min.  I could see the window bow () just a little bit.  I put a lot of work into them didn't want to hear - POP! :hide:  After the 5 min. I turned the gas off and removed the needles and with a toothpick worked silicone into the hole - then did the silicone seal on all four sides.  Oh, and by the time the second needle was removed the pressure was zero.  Like I said the Helium was left over from.... [I forget].  I just figured there was less DMHO in the tank than in the room air.

4/28 17:00  #10 is done.  The project is over (well I've got some cleanup to do etc).  I figure at 2 hrs per window I just got paid $25/hr for my labor +/-.  :banana:


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## liderbug

Well the above works - unless the glass is etched.    Seems the kitchen slider (4x6) fogging was 10% fog, 90% etch.  Wonder what's in the air.


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## daveswife2005

Looking for company in Atlanta GA area to fix fogged thermal pane windows. Want them fixed, not replaced.  Please contact Cheryl at 770-479-7050 asap. Posted 6/2/2011. 



torontomix said:


> There is a local company that will remove my moisture by drilling two holes in the window (opposite ends) then spray a chemical that basically eats the moisture from inside the window and plug up again.
> 
> Ive drilled glass before and I know how easy it is with the right tools (diamond drill bits etc etc)
> 
> My question is if anyone knows what this chemical is called? If they ever done anything like this before and any bumps they might have hit
> 
> Thanks guys
> Dan


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## norris

Hello liderbug,

Thanks for sharing information about your project!  I'm wanting to do much the same thing (except creating new double pane units instead of fixing an old one).  I have a few questions about your process.  

The ebay source for super spacers (thanks for that pointer; it's been really hard finding anyone local who will sell us spacers!) seems to only sell the Super Spacer T-spacer, which is described at Edgetech's manufacturer website.  You said you found your spacers locally--did you get the T-spacers, or another type?  

-How did you seal the corner?  The manufacturer website for the T-spacers says you need to seal the corner with "PIB backed strips" to prevent loss of gas and moisture infiltration.

-Did you only use silicone sealant?  The website indicates that you need to use butyl rubber as the primary seal, then silicone as the secondary structural seal.

Thanks again!

Norris Thomlinson
Portland, OR


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## VentsnotValves

Helium?  That's a new one to me.  The He molecule is very small, aren't you concerned that it will find some way out sooner more than later?  I would be interested in hearing of how this fix lasts.  Hopefully, you sealing the contours, helped.  I guess the question is are you sure that the ingress of moisture was stopped?

Lucky when you pushed gas in there, they didn't pop, very dangerous move.  That's why the repair guys use liquids that absorb moisture and evaporate it. (preferably those that don't leave a residue that is noticable.) 

IGU  (insulated glass unit) replacements is big business.  It will always be around, and should not feel threatened by the small guys trying to save windows.  IGU manufactures all have slightly different methods of make their products.  It does not need to be true that all manufactures fill the space with a gas that benefits the life and quality.  Nor is it always true that they vacuum the space long enough to get all the moisture out of that &#8220;adiabatic&#8221; space.  (Dead space, when heat does not enter or leave.  New Oxford American Dictionary.)

Does the technique of venting work?  Yes it works.  Up to the point were the incoming moisture is less than that which can be vented.  In short, if what you have is a fish tank and not a window it may not work.  Also, I have seen many mentions of the calcification (which is a form of glass surface deterioration often due to a reaction of  trapped moisture reacting with the sealant (sulfur compounds and various etchants), metal spacer, and the iron in the glass.  The high temperature and multiple cycles will cause deposits to crystalize and etch with the glass).

Please keep in mind, that many start in the repair business hoping to make a good business and honest living.  However, most times the larger name group is the one that takes the bulk of the profits.

There are still good honest repair persons out there.  You should look for track records!  Most that are still in the condensation removal business use it only as a complement to their replacement business.

They use &#8220;Vents not Valves&#8221;  and if they fix it correctly the IGU will out last any new replacements.  Which if you think about it, a new IGU is just like pressing a reset button for the next 5 + years.  But if you fix it correctly your done for many years.

I will be fair to say we manufacture all sorts of small products and simple tools.  Some which are used in this industry.  We do not repair IGU&#8217;s

Good luck
Questions are welcome


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## GTVic

VentsnotValves said:


> Good luck
> Questions are welcome



The consensus seems to be that fogged windows are a cosmetic issue. Similarly, the felt seals that eventually dry up and allow drafts are not really a risk to the building. Is that correct?

Where this affects a condominium is the cost. The cost to all the owners of replacing fogged windows or the felt seals ($100 / window) is quite high. I am trying to find out if it is justified to pass this cost on to the individual affected owners or actually to get them to arrange and pay for the repairs themselves.


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## VentsnotValves

"Felt seals", are you talking about slider windows?  Felts on slider windows are not my expertise, but sliders can fog up even more if the seal is good.  This is all about due point, differential temperatures, and inside humidity.
Cosmetic? not sure what do you mean?  
Window manufacturers do not add felts for the simple cosmetics.  They do serve a purpose of keeping the outside elements from entering the space between the inside sliders (thats if there are two sets of sliders).

A good window installer should be able to recondition the felts and seals on even slider windows for a fraction of the cost of replacement.  I think if was my window I would up-keep as much as possible.  Moisture and mold is hardly cosmetic.

As for who pays?  That's not for me to say.  Are windows part of the building?   

Not sure if I answered the question?


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## GTVic

Sorry, by felt seals I was referring to weather stripping on the parts of the windows that open. These are grey strips that slide in the grooves in the aluminum frames. Similar to the grey strips on sliding doors. We were quoted $100 per window to replace all of these.

I didn't mean to link felt seals and "cosmetic", two separate issues. I have been advised that according to our strata act, fogging windows are replaced at the expense of the strata corporation, while the upkeep of the weather stripping, rollers for sliding doors, handles, cranks and screens can be assigned to the individual condominium owners via a strata corporation bylaw.

By cosmetic I meant is it possible that a fogging window pane can be left alone if there are no other issues with the window? The insulation value of the window is not compromised greatly and if there is nothing wrong with the frame or around the frame then there is no reason to replace it except to improve the appearance. That is what I am understanding by reading through some of the comments here.

Now I have one of our owners complaining that all the drafts she is feeling in winter cannot possibly be due to those little grey strips getting old and that we should be investigating a complete window replacement project, frames and all I'm guessing. With all the stucco on the outside, I'm guessing that replacing 200 aluminum double-pane windows and 70 sliding doors is a very expensive proposition and according to the "expert" who looked at the windows, completely unnecessary.


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## VentsnotValves

GTVic said:


> Sorry, by felt seals I was referring to weather stripping on the parts of the windows that open. These are grey strips that slide in the grooves in the aluminum frames. Similar to the grey strips on sliding doors. We were quoted $100 per window to replace all of these.
> 
> reply:  As for the high quote.  Was this a written quote?  Did you ask for an explanation from the contractor.  Does he need to rent special tools for the job ... sky jack etc.  maybe has to work from the outside  etc.  I find $ 100 per window quite high.  I would get more quotes to change those felts.
> 
> I didn't mean to link felt seals and "cosmetic", two separate issues. I have been advised that according to our strata act, fogging windows are replaced at the expense of the strata corporation, while the upkeep of the weather stripping, rollers for sliding doors, handles, cranks and screens can be assigned to the individual condominium owners via a strata corporation bylaw.
> 
> By cosmetic I meant is it possible that a fogging window pane can be left alone if there are no other issues with the window? The insulation value of the window is not compromised greatly and if there is nothing wrong with the frame or around the frame then there is no reason to replace it except to improve the appearance. That is what I am understanding by reading through some of the comments here.
> 
> Reply for both paragraphs:  constant fogging windows will and can degrade the actual glass (as in IGU's).  It is a long term effect that moisture has while reacting with low grades of glass and glues, rubbers (mostly sulfur based compounds) that are close to the glass and moisture. This is not reversible will damage the glass for good.  The bad strips may be compounding the effects and assisting in the dew point thereby part of the fogging.
> 
> Now I have one of our owners complaining that all the drafts she is feeling in winter cannot possibly be due to those little grey strips getting old and that we should be investigating a complete window replacement project, frames and all I'm guessing. With all the stucco on the outside, I'm guessing that replacing 200 aluminum double-pane windows and 70 sliding doors is a very expensive proposition and according to the "expert" who looked at the windows, completely unnecessary.



Reply:  How old is the caulking around the doors and windows?

It is hard to measure quantity of draft.  Air flow on its own is a science (fluid dynamics).  There is too much to discuss here.  A simple test is visual, using 3 continual squares of toilet paper taped over a cloths hanger.  You get close to your suspected area and watch what the tissue does.  The paper will move to reveal a draft.
As for a repair versus change out.  It would be difficult for anyone to claim to be of help at a distance without inspecting.  Get at least 3 separate written quotes keep good records.  Take good pictures, date them, and store them for future discussions and complaints...  Sometimes even an expert will charge you a displacement fee to assess your problems (some will even credit this fee towards their bill) but it well worth the satisfaction to show what 3 separate pros see that owners and managers don't.

Hope this helps
good luck


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## tonyc56

Has anyone used The Glass Guru for window moisture removal. If so, did their process work....


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## liderbug

Sorry for the delay - project over and on to other things.  Someone asked about sealing corners - on 3 I didn't - when I got to the corner I cut a V in the strip 75% cut 25% untouched.  Makes for a small radius on the outside, silver, but a nice L inside.  On the 4th I cut at a 45 and cut the each side about .001" longer (I've got a really good eye....) so the strips touched real good (0 gap) and then painted the cuts with a bit of RTV and put a strip of mylar tape around the corner. (my middle initial is A).  Its' been 9 months and the only problem so far is that the dirt that collects on the outside stands out more than before - bummer -


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## ljf

Not sure what the chemical is that you are asking about but wanted to warn you if you decide to contract the work.  

I used the Foggy Window Doctor to repair 9 windows in my home, e.g. spray in the solution to clean between panes and reseal.  They charged $100/window for 9 windows and guaranteed the work.

Five of the windows are just as bad as before they did it and the company is completely unresponsive to voicemail and emails.  I filed a complaint with the Better Business Burea and they also were unable to get a reponse from Foggy Window Doctor.  My only recourse now is small claims court.

DO NOT USE FOGGY WINDOW DOCTOR - they don't stand behind their work.


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## reggiecortez

First of all the process does work but their are some windows that can not be restored. With that said..... 

Now, those windows that were restored In the corners you should find what we In the business call valves. Valves control air flow, air has moisture, within the window allowing moisture to get out at the same time controlling the moisture from getting In.  If I have It correct you still have foggy or condensation problem. If that Is the situation then the only thing that It could be are those valves. In that case remove the valves with your finger nail and the problem Is solved. The only reason for those valves are to control air flow, air has moisture, and to keep bugs out. 




To solve the bug problem just get clear tape something like 'Scotch Tape' cover the hole then take a SHARP needle poke tiny holes,10-12, to allow moisture to escape and to keep the bugs out. FYI   the Scotch Tape will fade in texture and will be noticeable In time.   Their is a specific product for this It's call a 'plug'. On line find someone In the business to sell you those 'plugs'.

Send me all the info on the company that you hired and I will tract them down for you.

Reggie


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## reggiecortez

to ljf

i just called foggy window doctor at 705 435-3649 and spoke to cathy. she is expecting your call.


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## ljf

I tried to contact them again and left yet another message. But honestly I have left at least half dozen messages and multiple emails and Cathy does NOT call back.  They didn't get back to the Better Business Burea either so I'm not taking it personally!  Unbelievably poor service.


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## joecaption

There is no magic quick fix to a double pane window.
Depending on the style, replace the sash, or replace the insert.


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## Dudley

Where can the one way valves and desiccant for eliminating moisture between window panes be purchased?


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## joecaption

Not going to happen.  Time for a whole new sash.


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