# Fixing pump/pressure tank system for well- best way?



## zannej (Mar 1, 2021)

My house uses well water from a crappy system in a metal shed.

Inside the shed we have a 2-wheeled belt-driven piston pump that creates air pressure inside some pipes going to the top of the cistern to pull water up into the cistern.
A float connected to a rod that goes up and down hits the arm of a D-switch that tells the pump when to shut on or off. The switch is on top of the cistern's lid and the rod goes through a hole. It's not a perfect system, but it's the only one the well installer/maintenance guy knows how to do.

Near the bottom of the cistern there is a 1-1/4" outlet with a 1-1/4" x 3/4" PVC reducer coming out. It then has another reducer to take it back to 1-1/4". I had wanted to have a foot valve put in & eliminate that reduction, but that didn't happen & well guy hasn't been returning my calls. To change the fitting would require climbing inside the cistern & I can't get the lid high enough to do that & don't think I would be able to get back out if I tried. There used to be a shutoff right after the outlet but the pipes broke & were replaced with couplings.

From the jungle of couplings/adapters coming out of the cistern it elbows up for a bit then sideways & has a brass check valve. It connects to PVC threaded fittings and it transitions to stainless steel elbows to the side and then down to the jet pump's inlet.

I have an AO Smith Goulds 1HP J10S jet pump. Inlet port is 1-1/4". Outlet port on top is 1". It has galvanized steel pipes coming out the top and reduces to 3/4". It has an ancient pressure gauge on top attached to a tee. On the side of the jet pump is a 30/50 pressure switch. After about a foot or more it transitions to PVC. Elbows to the side and then down into the top of a PVC tee. Tee is oriented so the two even sides are vertical & middle outlet is on the side. The side outlet goes to an elbow that goes down then another elbow to the side to the pressure tank. The bottom of the tee goes to the main water supply.

The pressure tank is a 22gallon FlexLite fiberglass tank with a base to hold it up. I don't even know if it's getting used properly the way it is hooked up. There is no pressure relief valve, no hose spigot, no shutoff.

Right now the inlet pipe of the pump is above the level of the pump-- which is a no no.

Things I need to do:

Raise the pump up higher so the inlet line is below the pump (this would also tighten the pipes so there would not be leaks)
Add a shutoff valve to the 1st vertical run of the PVC from the cistern (not enough pipe on horizontal part for a fitting)
Replace the 3/4" galvanized steel from the pump's outlet with stainless steel
Add some sort of tank tee with pressure relief valve, hose bib, & possibly ball valve

Now, here is where I am undecided about the rest of the improvements/layout.

*Option 1A*

Keep existing tank (if it is still good-- otherwise replace with one about the same size- which will likely cost more $$)
Get a _brass _tank tee that comes with pressure switch, pressure gauge, pressure relief valve, and hose bib
Use pex barb fittings & 1" PEX to connect tank tee to jet pump outlet pipe
I could get the brass one that includes a ball valve https://www.amazon.com/Installation-Package-Pressure-SQUARE-pressure/dp/B00TG27TGG/
With this one I would likely have to get some sort of reducer and union to connect to the 3/4" port of the pressure tank
PROS: Brass is cheaper and easier to find
CONS: Brass does not handle hard water as well as stainless steel
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*Option 1B*

Keep existing tank (if it is still good-- otherwise replace with one about the same size- which will likely cost more $$)
Get a _stainless steel_ tank tee that comes with pressure switch, pressure gauge, pressure relief valve, and hose bib
Use pex barb fittings & 1" PEX to connect tank tee to jet pump outlet pipe
I could get https://www.amazon.com/STAINLESS-Installation-Pressure-SQUARE-pressure/dp/B00X4PBE2Q/ along with a 1" stainless steel ball valve like https://www.amazon.com/Dernord-Stainless-Steel-Valve-Standard/dp/B07D3K4TWC/ (or something cheaper if I can find it).
PROS: SS holds up to hard water better than brass
CONS: SS is more expensive and harder to find than brass

These first options would be the cheapest route IF my pressure tank is not shot. If my pressure tank is shot, then I'm looking at having to spend over $200 or even $300 on a new comparable tank.

Assuming my tank is shot & that a Cycle Stop Valve would work as advertised, the following are my options:
-
*Option 2A*

Get AO Smith 4.6 gallon pressure tank for $70 https://www.lowes.com/pd/A-O-Smith-4-6-Gallon-Vertical-Pressure-Tank/1000565599
Get plastic CSV125 for $69 + shipping CSV125-1 Cycle Stop Valve
Add an SS or brass cross inline on top of the CSV (which would be attached to the top of the pump's outlet with a mnpt nipple)
Use 1" x 1-1/4" adapters to connect pump's outlet (which would be vertical) to the CSV
Have pressure switch attached with reducers adapters to the cross-- Outlet pipe from cross will have tees with pressure relief valve, spigot, & shutoff
Use adapters/reducers from 1" to 3/4" to have a pex barb fitting to connect to the existing main waterline
I will need multiple adapters and some pipes to make this work. I may also need something set up to support the pressure tank so it doesn't tip things over.
PROS: CSV125 is plastic so I could use either brass or stainless steel if I can find the right fittings. It's cheaper than getting full size tank & cheaper than CSV1A. I *think* I need the 40psi version. This setup would leave more room in the shed to access things. Might be able to re-use old pressure switch depending on mounting method
CONS: I'm not exactly certain which version I would need with the smaller tank and I would have to use multiple different tees and adapters that I'd have to find and purchase. This would probably require something to support the tank to make sure it doesn't cause the whole pump to tip over. Would need to buy separate pressure relief valve, spigot, pressure gauge, & shutoff.
-
*Option 2B*

Get AO Smith 4.6 gallon pressure tank for $70 https://www.lowes.com/pd/A-O-Smith-4-6-Gallon-Vertical-Pressure-Tank/1000565599
Get plastic CSV125 for $69 + shipping CSV125-1 Cycle Stop Valve
Get one either brass or stainless steel tank tee with pressure gauge, pressure relief valve, spigot, & pressure switch (optional shutoff) for around $100
Use 1" x 1-1/4" adapters to connect pump's outlet (which would be vertical) to the CSV
Add elbow to tank tee to go up underneath the smaller tank and hold it up (with additional supports added inside)
Use adapters/reducers from 1" to 3/4" to have a pex barb fitting to connect to the existing main waterline
With this method, I would remove the existing pressure switch on the pump and replace it with the one on the tank tee near the CSV. I've been told that the closer to the pressure tank the switch is, the better. It might be easier to find brass pex barb fittings than stainless steel, but the CSV125 is plastic
PROS: Rather simple to set up, less expensive than getting larger tank, less expensive than getting stainless steel version of CSV, tank tee comes with accessories I don't need to buy separately
CONS: I'm not sure which of the CSV125s I need (there are different versions for different specs & I'm still trying to figure out my best option). I *think* the CSV125-40psi version is what I need but am not certain
-
*Option 3A*

Get AO Smith 4.6 gallon pressure tank for $70 https://www.lowes.com/pd/A-O-Smith-4-6-Gallon-Vertical-Pressure-Tank/1000565599
Get stainless steel CSV1A for $179 + shipping
Run it on it's side & use 1/2" outlet with a short pipe to have a stainless steel pressure relief valve OR spigot OR reduce to 1/4" for pressure gauge or pressure switch
Add a stainless steel cross to the 3/4" port- top outlet goes to tank, side goes to PRV, spigot, or gauge, bottom goes to elbow with pressure switch
Outlet of CSV has ss nipples to connect to 1-1/4" SS ball and 1" nipple on other side (unless I can find a mnpt 1-1/4" ball valve)
1-1/4" flexible SS hose goes from mnpt nipple to 1-1/4" fnpt x 3/4" mnpt adapter to go to PVC fnpt (OR use PVC fnpt 1" x 1-1/4 fnpt bridge to 1" brass mnpt to PEX barb + 1" PEX line to 1" pex barb x 3/4" mnpt adapter)
I can re-use the 1-1/4" hose I tried to use on the inlet side and hope it doesn't leak. Worst case, if it doesn't work, I can use PVC in between to bridge between SS and brass to have PEX barb fittings bc I can't for the life of me find SS ones.
PROS: Takes up less space & is mostly vertical, supposedly more efficient than plastic CSV, may require fewer tees/crosses bc of ports on CSV, SS holds up better than brass
CONS: Harder & more expensive to find SS accessories, requires extra support to keep it from tipping over, not sure if SS hose will leak or if it is long enough to reach. If it doesn't, I can use PVC to build up or convert to PEX

*Option 3B*

Same as 3A for 1st parts
Have 1" pipe (12" long) come straight up from top of tank, 1" elbow over & lay CSV1A on it's side with tank port on top so pipe can come straight out the top for the tank
Can either have straight pipe up from 3/4" tank port or tee or cross
1/2" ports on CSV can have pressure relief valve & spigot (or pressure gauge & pressure switch)- can also have tees or crosses from these ports to have more accessories
1-1/4" outlet of CSV goes to ss nipple connected to 1-1/4" ball valve
Same setup as 3A w/ hose or pex


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## zannej (Mar 1, 2021)

I hit my character limit and had to delete some things. Found out I was forgetting that the CSVs have 1-1/4" male threads on the outer rim and 1" female on the inside. That would eliminate the need for some of the reducers. 
Possibly thinking of using the 125 like this (but with a cross on top to allow me to plug in pressure switch & pressure gauge. I could get a 5 port cross to have more things added on and I can attach crosses or tees to ports to get everything I need. The plastic one would let me use brass or SS, but it's best to stick to the SS for the 1A.
Here's a pic I saw of how someone set up the 125



If I did the 1A on it's side so it went up like that, I could use all of the side ports for other things, throw on a tee or cross & have the tank on top. I could also run the 1A sideways and use it's designated port for the tank and see if my 1-1/4" SS hose can hook to the outlet port of the CSV.

I'm trying to come up with sketches.


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## SARG (Mar 5, 2021)

I provided a suggestion but the forum admin deleted it.


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## zannej (Mar 7, 2021)

So, I've had some back and forth with customer service from CSV. They are recommending one of their kits (which are too expensive) or the 1A (which is still expensive but would make it so I don't need a separate tank tee if I change to a smaller tank). I could re-use my existing pressure switch & get my own pressure relief valve, pressure gauge (or re-use my old one if it's OK), spigot, and transition pieces. If I add a shutoff vertically where I want to, I won't need a ball valve. I wish they had the 1A with a pressure gauge included because if I have to replace mine (if it's no good anymore) I am not sure which gauge to get.

I'm now thinking that having an elbow and running the CSV1A sideways and having the tank port on the top might be the best way because then the 1-1/4" end will be closer to where I need to tie in. I could use PEX or a stainless steel hose (that I already have). I'm just trying to figure out if this is worth it since I suspect my tank has to be replaced anyway.


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## SARG (Mar 8, 2021)

Just a couple opinions.
Your well system is just as important as your roof and the components have a life span. The bladders in the pressure tanks develop leaks, the pressure switch contacts wear out . the 1/4 nipple pipe the switch connects with gets plugged with crap ( sediment) , the gauge wears out and mine filled with water ( leaked). As the components wear out of spec the well system becomes irratic and it is hard to identify the individual problems.
I replaced my entire system last November and I included a CSV1A. Money well spent and we should be good for the balance of my life.
Today I'm glad I did. If you do a search for plumbing forums there are several that Cary Austin ( Valveman ) is on daily. He owns cyclestopvalves and is very helpful with any questions. He has many decades of experience with pumps and well systems.  Yes ... He promotes the CSVs ..... but for valid reasons above the money. I have read dozens of discussion posts on well set ups just as you describe yours.


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## zannej (Mar 8, 2021)

Thank's Sarg. I don't really have the space to add shelving. It's inside a flimsy metal building and I can't really attach stuff to the walls and there's not enough room to put in a table or anything. I don't want any wood in that area as it tends to get very wet and mucky. I need to pour some gravel in there I think.
This is the current layout (although its much more twisty) and I think it is actually 3/4" instead of 1".



Here was one of my sketches of the plans



I might roll that with an elbow though and have the CSV with red side down so the tank can be on top with a tee or cross. Tee can have pressure gauge on the left and pressure switch on the right.
Can a pressure switch be put in sideways or would it mess up? I could do an elbow out of a cross for the gauge or I could just have another tee for it. Hose spigot and pressure relief valves could be on the actual CSV since it has ports for it.


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## SARG (Mar 9, 2021)

More opinions :
Galvanized piping will corrode. I avoid it.
I now use ball valves. No compression valves because they eventually leak, ( hose bibs and shut offs )
Install so it's easy to work on. Initially you will be adjusting the CSV while watching the pressure gauge. And ten years from now you may want to put a rebuild kit in the CSV ( goes under the red cap )
Stainless steel requires more wraps of teflon tape and pipe dope ... the threads do not flex like brass.
If it's your property I would think about replacing you "well house" with maybe one of the "utility sheds" like the Amish build & sell.
Your water supply should be on your "critical list" ... roof - water - heat.
Finally - Check out the other forums where the experts are. I only have my personal experiences while those folks have hundreds of installations.


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## zannej (Mar 9, 2021)

To clarify, the galvanized steel is what is on the system currently. I plan on removing it and replacing with stainless steel but in a different configuration. The intake side used to be all PVC but it was constantly breaking/leaking so I finally got some stainless steel fittings. Used pipe dope on female threads, teflon tape on male. I'm currently price-checking and finding stainless steel parts for the change.
I plan on getting a ball valve style hose bibb (which I labeled as spigot). I will have to mess with more drawings later when I'm not so tired.

There are no Amish in my area. I'm very very far away from any Amish communities. We don't have quality builders in the area. However, I am planning to eventually build my own shed to replace that crappy metal one. I can keep the same width but intend to make it longer. I've already been looking up how to do the foundation, how to do the rafters, ridge board, and gusset plates. I would make my own gusset plates and assemble the opposing rafter pieces ahead of time (secured with gusset plates). I'm too tired to think clearly enough to go into more detail, but I made a thread on a sister forum talking about the potential shed-building project. Shed recommendations for submersible pump & water well

I've been talking to Sam and Carey and whichever one of the employees goes by Valveman on the plumbing forums.


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## zannej (Mar 10, 2021)

So, this is what I'm thinking:



I had trouble finding some of the parts I wanted to find that would have reduced the number of fittings. I mean, I found some but they were either way overpriced or had terrible reviews or were not for potable water.

From the 1" female (1-1/4" male) outlet I would either have a 1-1/4" stainless steel flexible hose connected to an 1-1/4" nipple/coupling type thing that merges with PVC and reduces to 3/4" (because that's the size of all my waterlines inside the shed.


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## SARG (Mar 10, 2021)

Only suggestions I can see is including a ball valve shut off on the house side of the system. Position the CSV so it is easy to adjust and put in a rebuild kit if necessary 10 years from now. ( under the red dome ) Also position the pressure gauge so it's easy to see and change in a couple years.

The cyclestopvalve site has a multitude of pictured systems for ideas.









						Reviews – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc
					






					cyclestopvalves.com


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## BuzzLOL (Mar 11, 2021)

zannej said:


> Inside the shed we have a 2-wheeled belt-driven piston pump that creates air pressure inside some pipes going to the top of the cistern to pull water up into the cistern.



Where does the water come from? Is it delivered? From a well under the cistern?


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## zannej (Mar 11, 2021)

Sarg, the placement for the pressure gauge I've chosen should be easy to see. Right now we can't read the pressure gauge without a flashlight and going on the other side of the pump. Although, my friend did accidentally hit his nuts on it while squatting down to work on the pump. I will have a shutoff before the pump. I may add another ball valve somewhere after the tank though, I'm trying to come up with appropriate plans. 

Someone on the plumbing forum sent me a link to a site with stainless steel parts so I've revised the plan again using available parts. Instead of two tees stacked, I can use a cross and put the pressure gauge on the other side with an adapter. I'm still debating whether or not to use a union. Trying to figure out if it would be easier to turn the tank to unscrew it or if it would be easier to unscrew a union. What do you guys think?



Buzz, I have a belt driven 2-wheeled external pump that uses air pressure to pull water in to the cistern. 
It's sort of like this on a mounting block:



It goes together sort of like this


The motor side turns the wheel and it's connected to pipes that go down through the top of the cistern's lid. I'm not sure quite what they do in there- but I know it creates air pressure and the pipes can get rather hot. The primary pump is connected to a D-box float switch and there is a float going in to the cistern.
Simplified sketch:


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## SARG (Mar 11, 2021)

zannej said:


> Sarg, the placement for the pressure gauge I've chosen should be easy to see. Right now we can't read the pressure gauge without a flashlight and going on the other side of the pump. Although, my friend did accidentally hit his nuts on it while squatting down to work on the pump.* I will have a shutoff before the pump*. I may add another ball valve somewhere after the tank though,



Every thing I have read from Mr. Austin states NO shutoff between the pump and the rest of your system. The shut off ball valve should be after your well system.
Perhaps if you're just using it to isolate the cistern it doesn't matter.


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## BuzzLOL (Mar 11, 2021)

I was trying to figure out why you had a cistern... looks like a 'deep well pump' system to fill the cistern... then another pump to supply pressurized water to the house... 
I once worked on a cistern system where the pressure gauge was piped close to a piston water pump and the gauge needle swung back and forth with every piston pump quickly destroying gauges... I put the new gauge where the pressure was much more steady and slowly changing...


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## DesertRider (Mar 12, 2021)

QUOTE:

"Inside the shed we have a 2-wheeled belt-driven piston pump that creates air pressure inside some pipes going to the top of the cistern to pull water up into the cistern."

I've been trying to follow this thread... But I'm getting a headache...

I have yet to figure out where the water is coming from... underground source... like a well... runoff... 

"Air Pressure inside some pipes... to pull water into the cistern"  I'm going to go re-read one of my Hydro-Dynamics books


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## zannej (Mar 12, 2021)

@SARG: The shutoff before the pump is only for emergency use. It's in case anything breaks or needs to be fixed/maintained etc. I can shut it off to keep water from pouring out of the cistern. That way if the pump or anything before the main line shutoff needs to be replaced, I can shut it off. I've had the pump for several years now and I noticed the threads inside the inlet part looked rusty when I switched from PVC to SS. I always turn the power to the pumps off when working on things. We used to have a shutoff before the pump for emergencies but it got removed by the repair guy. I had wanted him to replace that whole bottom portion coming out of the cistern.

@DesertRider: To be honest, I am not exactly certain how it works. I know the water comes from underground. I know there is the 2-wheeled pump with pipes going in to the top of the cistern through the lid. I know it creates air pressure in those pipes and water fills the cistern until the float triggers the switch to turn off and shuts the pump off. From there, the jet pump pulls water out and pushes it to a pressure tank and the main water line that splits in to 3 parts (backyard/barn, front yard, and house). I wanted to take a closer look at the inner workings but I can only get the lid to lift a couple of inches and it's too heavy for me to hold it up long enough to get pictures (and I don't want to risk dropping my phone in). I don't even know how to remove the lid to get inside to clean the cistern (which I tried to get the repair guy to do, but he didn't want to-- can't really blame him).

My latest gigantic sketch. This shows most of the layout (excluding the wheeled pump). The main waterline and divisions afterward may look vertical, but they run horizontally. It's such a mess I can't figure out what fittings are coming out of the cistern. I know it reduces from 1-1/4" to 3/4" and back up to 1-1/4" and I have no clue why.


Edit: It seems to shrink the image and doesn't allow for a larger one. Not sure why. I might have to break it up into sections and have 2 or 3 different images.


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## BuzzLOL (Mar 12, 2021)

zannej said:


> To be honest, I am not exactly certain how it works. I know the water comes from underground. I know there is the 2-wheeled pump with pipes going in to the top of the cistern through the lid. I know it creates air pressure in those pipes and water fills the cistern



The "two wheeled" pump has a belt and TWO PULLEYS... I don't think it pumps "air", I think it has a water intake from the cistern and pumps high pressure WATER down through the cistern and on down into a DEEP WELL JET system. Or maybe the well isn't under the cistern, can't tell from here. I think you have an older separated TWO pump system of a modern double pump integral one unit system pictured at bottom of this page as a "DOUBLE-DROP JET-PUMP SYSTEM" for DEEP wells... Depending on cost of repair, you may someday want to convert to the simpler ONE SUBMERSIBLE PUMP SYSTEM... 








						How It Works: Water Well Pump
					

Popular Mechanics takes you inside for a look at how things are built.




					www.popularmechanics.com


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## zannej (Mar 13, 2021)

Thanks for the info, Buzz. I had asked the repair guy about it and he told me the pipes going from that belt-driven pump was moving air. I don't know what direction it was going or if there is an additional pump underneath. I'm not sure if the repair guy even knows. I'm pretty sure the guy who installed the system in the first place is dead. He was in his 80s about 10 years ago. He became senile and couldn't remember customers & no-showed on some calls. New guy came out immediately when we found him and fixed things. He's not the most knowledgeable person, but he will come out on Christmas to fix someone's water.


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## zannej (Mar 20, 2021)

I found pictures of the actual 2-wheeled pump and the connections to the cistern:





Could there be a submersible pump in the pipe going underground? Or could it be using air to suck the water up and dump it in the top via the PVC tube?


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## 68bucks (Mar 21, 2021)

I've never seen anything like that. I see the bladder tank in the background of the second picture. Looks like a pipe coming up from the cistern into the tank and running out of the building, which is what I would expect. I don't know what the air is for. How does the green tank connect to the test of the system? I see salt bags, is that just a brine tank for a softener? Does the air compressor run every time the water pressure drops like a pump would? I'm pretty sure the compressed air isn't the primary force moving the water, there almost has to be a pump somewhere.


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## BuzzLOL (Mar 21, 2021)

OK, that does indeed appear to be a tankless two cylinder single stage high volume air compressor... it has an air filter next to the electric motor to bring clean air in... it appears to pump compressed air down through the center of the well pipe through a smaller center pipe to an air powered deep well water lifting system and then water and air come back up through the well pipe outside of the smaller center compressed air pipe and leaves the well pipe on the side near the top of it to the cistern... the cistern allows the air to separate from the water collected... A water level switch in the cistern probably turns the compressor on and off...
I found articles on it, but am still unsure of WHY the water comes up ???









						DIY Airlift Pump Design: Pump Water with Compressed Air - Countryside
					

There is no reason to pay a lot of money for a water pump when this DIY airlift pump design will do all you want.




					www.iamcountryside.com
				












						Airlift pump - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



.
The second pump them draws water from the cistern and pressurizes it for use elsewhere...
The softening salt may go into the cistern or into another softening system...

The air compressor may need oil added to its crankcase occasionally... it doesn't appear to be an oil less diaphragm type compressor... The air filter may need changing occasionally... 

Dan at opensourceecology.com:
"This is an airlift pump. The Brumby site says that the submersion/lift ratio has to be at least 1/3. Wikipedia says 1/2. In other words, if your water table is 50 feet down, you have to drill down to between 75 feet (1/3) and 100 feet (1/2).
Bubbly water is lighter than non-bubbly. If your bubbly water is half air, it weighs half as much. A 100-foot column of half air, half water weighs as much as a 50-foot column of water. So, if you introduce 50% air into the bottom of a vertical tube 100 feet long standing in 50 feet of water, the bubbly water will rise to the top.
The trick is that you have to drill down an extra 50% to 100%, which means that your well costs an extra 50% to 100% to dig. "


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## zannej (Mar 21, 2021)

68bucks said:


> I've never seen anything like that. I see the bladder tank in the background of the second picture. Looks like a pipe coming up from the cistern into the tank and running out of the building, which is what I would expect. I don't know what the air is for. How does the green tank connect to the test of the system? I see salt bags, is that just a brine tank for a softener? Does the air compressor run every time the water pressure drops like a pump would? I'm pretty sure the compressed air isn't the primary force moving the water, there almost has to be a pump somewhere.


To clarify: The salt was for a water softener we wanted to install but never got installed. The plumber refused to even try to install it and the well repair guy said it was outside of his range of expertise. When we re-do things, I may see if it is possible to set the water softener in there somewhere and connect it to the main line going to the house (as we won't have room inside the house for it). We might be able to connect it with PEX.
Looks like Buzz was able to find out how it works.
The green tank connects as shown in post #12 (it's the green part on the right labeled cistern)






Buzz, if it has bubbly water, I suspect the air bubbles carry the water upward as the aerated water weighs less and then the water is released when the bubbles pop and the air is no longer lifting them. I could be wrong, but that's just my guess. We almost hit water digging for the septic tank so the water table is higher than that though. No idea if this is an efficient system or not, but it's what was here when we bought the place in the 80s.
I didn't even know there was anything to be oiled nor any filters to change. If you could show me where in the picture the filter is and the oil input, I'd appreciate it. I will have to look in to what sort of filter it will need. The repair guy never mentioned anything about filters and oil. I don't think it's ever been oiled or had a filter change in decades (although, we did get that two-wheeled pump replaced around or less than 10 years ago).


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## Eddie_T (Mar 22, 2021)

The 1" (1¼" or 1½")  vertical pipe coming up through the floor looks like it might be the supply pipe from the well. I can think of no other reason for it to be larger. If so the strange looking fittings at the the juncture of the air, well and cistern pipes may represent some sort of airlift pump for a very shallow well.


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## BuzzLOL (Mar 23, 2021)

Eddie_T said:


> The 1" (1¼" or 1½")  vertical pipe coming up through the floor looks like it might be the supply pipe from the well. I can think of no other reason for it to be larger. If so the strange looking fittings at the the juncture of the air, well and cistern pipes may represent some sort of airlift pump for a very shallow well.



Apparently this air lift system can lift water a couple hundred feet from a deep well...

The air/water supplied to the cistern air/water separater system has very little pressure and it just falls into the cistern and the air bubbles up out of the water. So a 2nd separate high pressure pump system is used to remove water from the cistern and pressurize the water into the high pressure tank that supplies the house and barn with high pressure (20 - 50 psi somewheres) water. The high pressure water tank with pressurized air above a bladder/water is used to maintain pressurized water without the need of the pump having to run all the time and quickly wearing out. In the olden days, there was no rubber bladder separating water from air in the high pressure tank and the air would eventually all dissolve into the water and the tank would have to have high pressure air added at the top yearly and then the whole process starts all over again. Of course, nowadays the whole tank/bladder system has to be replaced every 20 - 50 years whenever the bladder wears out and starts leaking air into water. Or you can continue using it by adding pressurized air in the old style way. HydroCell used to be a brand name of one tank, with internal air pressurized bladder, sold.

Looks like about a 2" pipe going down into the well with a smaller internal 1/2" or 3/4" pipe inside of it for pressurized air to go down through to the water below.

Wish zannej would stop saying "wheels" and start saying 'pulleys' since that's what they are... 

Have you had the water tested to see if you need a softener? Are you getting encrustations on faucets? Are white clothes turning yellow from iron rust in the water? Does the water have a 'taste'?
.


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## Eddie_T (Mar 23, 2021)

I am wondering why a cistern unless the well can't support the highest demand of a household. Another thought is that the well may be a non flowing artesian, if that the case an air lift system may also serve to eliminate sulfur dioxide gas from the water by aeration.


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## BuzzLOL (Mar 23, 2021)

Eddie_T said:


> I am wondering why a cistern unless the well can't support the highest demand of a household. Another thought is that the well may be a non flowing artesian, if that the case an air lift system may also serve to eliminate sulfur dioxide gas from the water by aeration.



I figure the cistern is to just let the air bubbles/foam leave the water at the top and pure water is pumped out of the bottom... 
Around here some people pipe the natural gas off their water wells and use it to heat their homes...


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## zannej (Mar 23, 2021)

LOL. OK. Pulleys it is. That's what I initially called them when first describing it online but people didn't understand & when I showed pictures they called them wheels.

I've never noticed a taste but we don't drink the water without boiling it & putting it through a filter. There is no odor that we can detect but it comes out tinted rather than clear. It stains clothes with a rusty color and also stains the toilet and other fixtures. We need a filtration system on it. I think Spicoli mentioned a 3 tier system. I'll have to look in to that.

So, since I have the cistern, would a CSV be redundant?

I'm still wondering if it would be good to get it just to have the system more streamlined and take up less space.


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## BuzzLOL (Mar 23, 2021)

zannej said:


> It stains clothes with a rusty color and also stains the toilet and other fixtures. We need a filtration system on it.
> 
> So, since I have the cistern, would a CSV be redundant?



Sounds like you need iron treatment... we had that problem where I grew up... what's CSV stand for?


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## zannej (Mar 24, 2021)

BuzzLOL said:


> Sounds like you need iron treatment... we had that problem where I grew up... what's CSV stand for?


Yup. Lots of iron in the soil.
Cycle Stop Valve. It's supposed to make it so the pump doesn't cut on and off as abruptly. It supposedly allows you to use a smaller pressure tank as well.


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## BuzzLOL (Mar 24, 2021)

zannej said:


> Cycle Stop Valve. It's supposed to make it so the pump doesn't cut on and off as abruptly. It supposedly allows you to use a smaller pressure tank as well.



That sounds counter-intuitive...


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## Eddie_T (Mar 24, 2021)

CSV also delivers near constant pressure which makes for showering w/o pump cycling and water adjustments. My son considered it but went with a normal system as no one seems to have them in our area for a look-see..


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## BuzzLOL (Mar 24, 2021)

How does it work that magic? Is it a pressure regulator?


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## SARG (Mar 24, 2021)

Very happy with mine on a submersible


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## SARG (Mar 24, 2021)

BuzzLOL said:


> That sounds counter-intuitive...


Go to this website and watch the videos on how they function.








						Cycle Stop Valves, Inc
					

Constant pressure pump control kits, constant pressure pump control valves, and pump monitors




					cyclestopvalves.com


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## Eddie_T (Mar 24, 2021)

@zannej Out of curiosity I read up on airlift pumps and cisterns. Airlift is typically for 3-9m lift and for degassing water. I suspect that you have a non-flow artesian well, it may also be insufficient for direct pumping. The cistern permits the bubbles to remove dissolved gases as well as storing water for demand. Silt might be another reason for not directly pumping the well as silt can shorten pump life. If you have silt it would settle out in the cistern and require periodic cleaning. If you have neighbors using an airlift and cistern supply you might discuss it with them. Another good source might be Terry Love Plumbing  forum;








						Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice
					

Ask your everyday plumbing questions. Get help, answers and advice, DIY welcome.




					terrylove.com


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## 68bucks (Mar 24, 2021)

BuzzLOL said:


> How does it work that magic? Is it a pressure regulator?


Yes it's a regulator. Basically whenever there is water flow the pump runs continuously so the pressure stays more or less constant. It's supposed to reduce the cycling of the pump though it increases the runtime. 


SARG said:


> Very happy with mine on a submersible


SARG did you see improvement in pressure? What is it that you see improvement in? I have been considering trying one but not completely sold yet.


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## SARG (Mar 24, 2021)

68bucks said:


> SARG did you see improvement in pressure? What is it that you see improvement in? I have been considering trying one but not completely sold yet.


68bucks ... Our benefit is primarily during showers. I have a 30/50 system and rather than the pressure going up & down from the 30 to 50 and back again ... repetitively .... I have the CSV set to about 45 psi and it stays constant while the water is running.  The cycling is what wears the pump and check valve out. I just put in a new pump and don't want to do it again.

I have another well with a submersible in a workshop on contiguous property with a smaller pressure tank. These days it is used mostly to fill the wife's 50 gallon water wagon she uses for flowers. The well cycles contantly while filling ..... so I will be spending the $179. for another CSV when the weather breaks.


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## zannej (Mar 24, 2021)

I believe the CSV1A is up to $190 now but I think that includes shipping.
Thanks for the info, Eddie! Terri Love's forum is the one I used to visit before I came here. Terri himself is friendly, but there were some people there who were a bit on the rude side (not sure if they are still there). I believe I joined that forum in 2008. I know the inside of my cistern is filthy but the well guy wouldn't clean it when I asked. Can't really blame him for not wanting to do the job. I can't get in there myself to do it.

I don't see or talk to my neighbors very much. I have no desire to talk to the nearest ones. The others keep pretty busy & I lost their numbers.

SARG, I get pressure fluctuations on my current system. Shower hasn't worked in awhile though so I've been showering at a friend's house.


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## SARG (Mar 24, 2021)

Price at cyclestopvalves.com is $179 with free shipping .......... was $175 last year.


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## 68bucks (Mar 24, 2021)

SARG said:


> 68bucks ... Our benefit is primarily during showers. I have a 30/50 system and rather than the pressure going up & down from the 30 to 50 and back again ... repetitively .... I have the CSV set to about 45 psi and it stays constant while the water is running.  The cycling is what wears the pump and check valve out. I just put in a new pump and don't want to do it again.
> 
> I have another well with a submersible in a workshop on contiguous property with a smaller pressure tank. These days it is used mostly to fill the wife's 50 gallon water wagon she uses for flowers. The well cycles contantly while filling ..... so I will be spending the $179. for another CSV when the weather breaks.


How does it handle short water draws, like rinse of some dishes stuff after dinner or a low volume washer filling, flush a toilet, stuff like that. I have wondered if you lose some benefit on short runs that a larger tank would prevent a pump cycle. Things like a shower I totally see the benefit. I only shower once a day, I run the water a little here and there lots of times a day. Can't get off the fence on this. I'm planing an addition that would move my water system and I would probably just replace the pump (submersible) at the same time. That would also be the time to add a CSV.


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## zannej (Mar 25, 2021)

It was showing as $190 when I loaded it before, but I just refreshed and now it says $179.

Good questions, 68bucks. There's an FAQ forum for them at Frequently Asked Questions

I do know that currently when I flush the toilet & wash my hands the pulley wheel pump will run for a few minutes afterward even though not that much water was drawn out. I can hear it running from the kitchen window, sliding glass door, and back door. It's very loud. The jet pump isn't nearly as loud- sounds somewhat like my washing machine- a low hum. Other pump has a higher pitched loud sound mixed in. If my FB messenger app wasn't being a pita, I'd load a video where you can hear the pulley wheel pump going.


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## DesertRider (Mar 25, 2021)

Zannej... if you live anywhere within a 200 mile radius of Southern Nevada, I would love to take a road trip ( even with these gas prices) and see this setup. I’m only an Mechanical Engineer, but have done my share of plumbing repairs and even whole house replacement... I’ve been trying to follow this since the day you first posted the issue, and I still can’t wrap my head around it... sitting here now, I’m not even sure I know what the problem is...


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## Eddie_T (Mar 25, 2021)

@zannej Air compressors are noisy compared to water pumps.


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## Eddie_T (Mar 25, 2021)

@zannej I have never experienced PVC breakage. I used PVC for all other than brass bodied pressure switch/gauge assy. Be sure pressure tank is solidly supported and use PVC slip (glued) fittings where possible as threads are usually where leaks and breakage occur. My ball shut-offs are also slip, replacement would be a little more work but they are now 15-20 years old w/no replacements.


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## DesertRider (Mar 25, 2021)

Eddie_T said:


> @zannej I have never experienced PVC breakage. I used PVC for all other than brass bodied pressure switch/gauge assy. Be sure pressure tank is solidly supported and use PVC slip (glued) fittings where possible as threads are usually where leaks and breakage occur. My ball shut-offs are also slip, replacement would be a little more work but they are now 15-20 years old w/no replacements.



EDDIE_T... You must not live where it freezes in the winter...


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## Eddie_T (Mar 25, 2021)

DesertRider said:


> EDDIE_T... You must not live where it freezes in the winter...


I assume that anyone depending on a well system would protect it from freezing.


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## zannej (Mar 25, 2021)

I've had a lot of PVC break outside. Some if it from getting brittle from sun exposure (before we found out it needed to be covered) and some from rare freezes (when we first moved in it almost never got below freezing but that has changed in the last few years). Our a-hole horse deliberately broke a bunch of things. He got mad one day that his water trough was empty so he grabbed a PVC pipe with a hose bibb, broke it off, then started swinging it at a goat to beat the goat with it. He also stomped all over the underground lines deliberately to break them (sadly, Dad didn't bury them deep enough as he hadn't anticipated the horse stomping them).  He was a smart horse but had a bad temper & was very mischievous. There was also a time I tripped in the shed and fell on the pipes & broke some. That wasn't a fun experience. Broke the pipe coming out of the cistern right after the shutoff. I felt like a total doof.

The main problem I had with the PVC in the well system was not cold but heat and vibrations. The male threaded PVC sort of melted and broke inside the jet pump's inlet. I was told by pump experts that it's not good to have PVC going directly in to the pump. I need to put some sort of anti-vibration pads under it when I do the new setup and both inlet and outlet will be threaded stainless steel.

I went with threaded ball valves so that I can unthread them from any broken stuff that was solvent welded.


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## 68bucks (Mar 25, 2021)

So have you talked to anyone about getting rid of the compressor for your water. Compressed air is expensive to make from an energy perspective. Is the well bore too small for a submersible or a jet? If there is a sulfur or other dissolved gas issue I can understand using the air to strip it but there might be a better way. Based on all the posts here I think I see how the system works but it sure seems inefficient if I'm understanding it correctly. Two pumps would be better that compressed air.


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## zannej (Mar 25, 2021)

68bucks, Yes, I have tried, but the well system business is scarce these days. There's only one guy who will come out to our are and he said he has no clue how to replace the system. I asked him about upgrades to solenoid valve, more efficient pumping in to cistern, etc & he said he didn't know how to do it. He got grandfathered in to the system bc his father installed and repaired well systems & he was the apprentice. I have tried to find other people, but the refuse to come out here.


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## zannej (Mar 26, 2021)

I managed to upload a short video that has the sound (but not footage) of the pulley wheel pump. The cow piped in at one point. LOL. I was looking for leaks but was having trouble seeing so I used the camera to film.


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## Eddie_T (Mar 26, 2021)

In my state every county has an agricultural extension agent. If your parish has an office they are a pretty good source of information and might have some info on the why of your water system.


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## BuzzLOL (Mar 28, 2021)

Eddie_T said:


> @zannej Air compressors are noisy compared to water pumps.



Belt drive pumps usually aren't that noisy... unless enclosed in a small box... some direct drive pumps can sound like a machine gun firing...


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## BuzzLOL (Mar 28, 2021)

68bucks said:


> So have you talked to anyone about getting rid of the compressor for your water.



I think submerged pumps need a minimum 4" or 5" well pipe to go down into... and looks like he has 2" pipe...
Before electricity was available in his area, the air compressor my have been driven by a hand crank or gasoline engine... or both at different times... or maybe just a suction hand pump at first...
When I grew up in 1950's we had a hand pump out in the front yard... some of our relatives hand the luxury of a hand pump indoors on the kitchen side board (now called a countertop, but just boards back then)...


			https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fd/99/8b/fd998b3f19406b766da0d53611f9515a.jpg


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## 68bucks (Mar 28, 2021)

BuzzLOL said:


> I think submerged pumps need a minimum 4" or 5" well pipe to go down into... and looks like he has 2" pipe..


I was sort of thinking it could be a small well bore based on that pipe in the pic. I changed the pump in my first house from a jet to a submersible. I believe it need a 4" pipe. A jet will fit a lot smaller though, not sure what the minimum is though.


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## zannej (Mar 29, 2021)

It's definitely around 2". So I don't think anything large could fit in it. Unless it completely breaks down, I'm not going to mess with it.


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