# Generator Problem



## sjm1027 (Apr 19, 2018)

I live in Massachusetts and during the last blizzard we lost our power for 3 days. I have a Honda Generator 3500 watt portable on wheels. I rolled it out and connected it to a 220 outlet on the side of the house going to breaker box. Of course I disconnected my 200 amp service from the  street first. 
When I started the generator it only half the house had power. 
About 5 years ago I had an electrical connect this 220 box to the house. It was his idea to set it up like that and all I had to do was to remember to manually disconnect from the street first. 5 years ago my whole house worked fine. I even remember the furnace working as well. I make sure I only run the furnace and fridge and nothing else. Once they shut off I can then use a few lights. Nothing to much because it's 3500 watts.
Anyone have any idea why only half the house is alive? 

Thanks in advance
Steve


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## nealtw (Apr 19, 2018)

You are sure and you have checked that that generator makes 240 volts.


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## JoeD (Apr 19, 2018)

Was it the same generator previously? What is the make and model of your unit?


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## Snoonyb (Apr 19, 2018)

When you disconnected, you may have inadvertently shut some breakers off, or tripped them.


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## sjm1027 (Apr 20, 2018)

nealtw said:


> You are sure and you have checked that that generator makes 240 volts.




Yes I have 240v output and I had it switched to 240


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## sjm1027 (Apr 20, 2018)

Snoonyb said:


> When you disconnected, you may have inadvertently shut some breakers off, or tripped them.



Thanks, I did check every breaker and they were all on.


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## sjm1027 (Apr 20, 2018)

JoeD said:


> Was it the same generator previously? What is the make and model of your unit?



Yes it was the same generator


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## JoeD (Apr 20, 2018)

Then it sounds like one of the hot leads is dead. Possibly a loose connection. Possibly a corroded plug connection.


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## Snoonyb (Apr 20, 2018)

You can check for 240v across the buss bars or 120v from each.


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## sjm1027 (Apr 21, 2018)

So your saying it could be one of the leads have been disconnected or corroded at the plug? Most likely on the outside of the house.


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## JoeD (Apr 21, 2018)

At the plug. In the cord. In the house wiring. You have to troubleshoot to find out where.
The generator could even be faulty but that would be low on my list and easy to check by measuring for 240 volts at the generator plug.


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## hornetd (Apr 25, 2018)

sjm1027 said:


> I live in Massachusetts and during the last blizzard we lost our power for 3 days. I have a Honda Generator 3500 watt portable on wheels. I rolled it out and connected it to a 220 outlet on the side of the house going to breaker box. Of course I disconnected my 200 amp service from the  street first.
> When I started the generator it only half the house had power.
> About 5 years ago I had an electrical connect this 220 box to the house. It was his idea to set it up like that and all I had to do was to remember to manually disconnect from the street first. 5 years ago my whole house worked fine. I even remember the furnace working as well. I make sure I only run the furnace and fridge and nothing else. Once they shut off I can then use a few lights. Nothing to much because it's 3500 watts.
> Anyone have any idea why only half the house is alive?
> ...


Steve

I hope you'll take this the way I intend it so that you can actually hear my concern for you and your family as well as for the Outside Wiremen (Linemen) who are working to restore the utility's lines to service.  Any system of disconnection that is dependent on you being home, alert and oriented, and not under the pressure of needing to get the power back on because of something someone was in the middle of is a formula for disaster.  On panel interlocks that exclude any possibility of a mistake are now available for most brands of Service Equipment panel boards.  The interlock kit is only around $50 if you shop carefully.  The directions for installing it are pretty clear.  The kits include a template for installation.  I would call them cheap at the price. 

Let's say you would not make that mistake.  What about if you're not home and that ever so helpful neighborhood know it all tries to hook it up.  Also if you have or will have teenage sons that is another source of "I can do this!" error. 

God between you and evil but are you really willing to take the risk of destroying your generator, setting your house on fire, or killing a lineman?  If you need more information on the risk go to the OSHA website and search for the accidental death reports for utility Linemen.  Every major storm seems to kill at least one Wireman or tree worker.  Some storms, like Hugo, Kill 3 or more by generator back feed.  The self qualified experts will tell you that Linemen are supposed to test and ground out any wire that they will handle.  In the regular course of maintenance work that is true.  But after a storm when they are working 12 hour shifts, dealing with shattered poles and open grounds, and trying to sort out the broken mess that used to be the power grid, a mistake or bad luck is very possible.  Then there are the Tree workers who work with the wiremen to clear the debris from the lines so that they can be restored.  They do not work in insulated gloves, wearing insulated overshoes, with a high voltage proximity detector hanging from their belts.  The Linemen tell them those lines are dead because they are broken between there and the substation.  They begin work and a generator comes on and one of them dies.  You see the transformers that reduce the distribution line voltage down to the 240/120 volts that you use in your home are very simple devices.  They will take electricity from either winding and change the voltage to the one the other winding was designed for.  Having converted the generators power back to distribution voltage it will send it quite a long way through the surviving lines until it reaches the fault point.  It only takes 3 hundredths of an ampere to kill a human being.  There has been a severe storm, crews are working hard and likely sweating some, ground crews and tree workers are not wearing protective equipment, and the ground under their feet is saturated with water.  They  don't even have to touch the reenergized wire.  The voltage difference across the ground between their feet; called step potential; can be enough to kill them. 

Naturally the Linemen have no tolerance for generator back feeds.  When the detect one they open the service drop or lateral at the street end and recover the power company owned meter.  That is called "double block and break."  Since that problem now effects a single customer it will be the last level of repairs to be detached.  It will also be referred to local electrical inspection authorities.  The very least that the inspection authority; Authority Having Jurisdiction; will impose is the inspection of your home's wiring by a Master Electrician in person rather than by Journeymen under their nominal supervision.  Some inspection offices will insist on the installation of an EXTERNAL Service Disconnecting Means rated, three pole transfer switch.  Do a search on them to get an idea of what they cost.  Add the phrase "NEMA 3R" to the search so that you see the greater cost of the weatherproof switch enclosure.  They usually start at $500 and go upward from there depending on the amperage which it can control.  How can they impose a requirement like that which is different from a home fitted with an interlock kit which costs less then a $100?  The back feed demonstrates that your home is a "Clear and Present Danger" to the lives of others.  If the Authority Having Jurisdiction does require an external transfer switch they will also require that work be done under the continuous in person supervision of a Master Electrician.  God help you if the utility transformer is close to your home in terms of wire feet.  And by the way if you have hurt or killed a fellow lineman you can bet your last penny that that is where the transformer will be reinstalled.  That will raise the required withstand rating of your entire service equipment to a much more expensive type.   

Please don't risk subjecting either the utility workers or the emergency services responding to the storm generated calls from electricity dependent invalids and the dialysis patients who cannot reach the dialysis clinic and are running out of time, to the risk of death or a disfiguring disability.  I am retired out of 35 years of fire and medical rescue work.  I know whereof I write.  I have seen these scenarios in real life. 

--
Tom Horne


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## WyrTwister (Jul 21, 2018)

Guessing you have a cable to go from the house to the generator ?

     Please post photos od both ends / connectors on the cable .

Wyr
God bless


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## tmiskimen (Jul 21, 2018)

I agree with hornetd. Nothing scares a line mechanic more than working storm damage and hearing a generator running in the neighborhood. He never knows when a transformer will be backfed and put 7200 volts on the wire he is holding. Install a transfer switch.


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## WyrTwister (Jul 21, 2018)

Most defiantly .  But I some how doubt that will happen .   :-(

Wyr
God bless


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## Eddie_T (Jul 25, 2018)

I use the same method to connect my generator. Do not be lax but it would take multiple errors to electrocute a lineman.

*"Insulated gloves and sleeves: Linemen must wear insulated rubber gloves and sleeves when working on any type of electrical line. They provide protection against electrical shock and burn, and are tested at 30,000 volts. Protective gloves, usually made of leather, are worn over the insulated gloves to protect the rubber from punctures and cuts."*


REPLY


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## WyrTwister (Jul 25, 2018)

OK , then let us see you do it .

     Personally , I limit myself to 470 VAC .  Want nothing to do with primary voltage .

Wyr
God bless


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## donald73d (Jul 26, 2018)

I hope an electrician did not install the box on the outside of your house to connect the generator to.  That box is fine by itself, but it needs to go to a transfer switch or some kind of interlock.  Others are correct, you should not backfeed.  A 6 pos transfer switch is not that much money, under $300.

You need to test all along the path for 220V.   Is it 220V out of the generator?  Out of the cord?


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## ChrisM (Jul 26, 2018)

I have an 8000 watt portable generator and a manual transfer switch that has only the essential circuits hooked up.  Even with that much power I can't run the hot water heater and well pump at the same time.  So it seems a 3500 watt generator would be a bit small to power an entire house.  The dryer, washing machine, and central air conditioning are not included.  The system works and I never have to worry about feeding power to the grid accidentally because the transfer switch prevents any possibility of that happening.  I agree with Tom Horne on this and consider it irresponsible to not have a transfer switch.


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## donald73d (Jul 26, 2018)

Its difficult to power anything that uses electricity for producing heat with a generator.  Such as a dryer or hot water heater or oven.  I have run a single burner on the stove.  The well pump will require at least a 5000 watt generator, maybe 8000 watt.  It depends upon the HP and whether there are two wires or 3 going to the pump.  Two wires means capacitor is inside the pump, 3 wires means capacitor is in a control box in the house.  Three wire allow the pump to draw less at startup.

My retirement home in DE has two heat pumps for heat and A/C and each has an electric booster coil it uses during a defrost cycle.  I am not going to install a generator when we retire unless the electric is out more than I think.  I would need a 25KW to 30KW generator.  Good thing is I have propane.


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## hornetd (Jul 26, 2018)

Eddie_T said:


> I use the same method to connect my generator. Do not be lax but it would take multiple errors to electrocute a lineman.
> 
> *"Insulated gloves and sleeves: Linemen must wear insulated rubber gloves and sleeves when working on any type of electrical line. They provide protection against electrical shock and burn, and are tested at 30,000 volts. Protective gloves, usually made of leather, are worn over the insulated gloves to protect the rubber from punctures and cuts."*
> 
> ...


Have you ever worn those gloves or sleeves?  You really ought to spend just 1 hour in them when the temperature is 90 degrees Fahrenheit and the Relative Humidity is 60 or more percent.  The pace of any hot work is, of necessity, much slower than reconstruction work needs to be.   Once a line is grounded out it is considered perfectly acceptable to work with only regular gloves to protect the hands from broken wire strands.  If the linemen worked everything as if it were still energized storm damage repair would take 10 times as long.  Would you be one of the people complaining bitterly about doing without power for weeks instead of days?  Tree workers are not equipped or trained to use electrical protective items and they are intimately involved in clearing the lines of debris so that the lineman can rebuild them.  It takes 3/100ths of an amp to kill a person.  Why is anyone's convenience or money worth more than a storm recovery worker's life?


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## Eddie_T (Jul 26, 2018)

A Duke Energy line supervisor that I knew was fired for not having his gloves on and he was only watching. It was a set-up by a disgruntled employee but he lost his job nevertheless. Following is another quote indicating the danger;

"Polk County, Fl
Wednesday, September 2, 2009 10:12 AM EDT
http://www.polkcountydemocrat.com/articles/2009/09/02/news/local/doc4a9dade2d4283632518688.txt
A Bartow electric department employee escaped a brush with death Monday night when a downed line he was repairing became energized by a homeowner’s generator.

Eddie Watson, an apprentice lineman, was grasping a line while wearing leather gloves as he worked to repair a line that was brought down by a falling tree in Monday night’s fierce thunderstorm.

When a homeowner whose house was served by the line started up a generator, it sent a surge of power through the line, Interim Electric Dir. Eschol Radford said.

The electricity went through a transformer, stepping up the voltage from 110 volts generated by the generator to 7,200 volts, the transmission voltage. Usually, the transformer does just the opposite, stepping down voltage from 7,200 to 110 volts for service lines to homes.

“He was lucky,” Radford said of Watson.

“Fortunately, he had a young guy, Scott Harrison, a lineman helper, working with him. Scott knocked him off the line and probably saved his life.”

Watson was rushed by ambulance to Lakeland Regional Medical Center, then transferred to the Tampa General Hospital burn center “to keep an eye on him overnight.

“Fortunately, he only had a couple of burns on his hands; he was really lucky,” Radford said.

Watson was sent home on Tuesday, “and is doing really well.”

The accident happened at Harney Road and Holly Lane in Alturas at about 9:30 p.m. Monday.

*Safety procedures call for linemen to work every line as if it were energized, which includes the wearing of heavy rubber gloves, Radford said.*

“He took a shortcut and got caught; we’ve all done it. He wanted to get the power restored as fast as possible.”

Watson has been employed by the city for about 20 years, half that time with the electric department, Radford said.

Harrison has been with the city three or four years.

*Homeowners who use a generator to restore household power during an outage should turn off the main breaker to their home to prevent this type of accident, Radford said."
*
I turn off my main breaker before connecting my generator and no one else in my house accesses it during generator use. For my own use as my gen is 5K I turn off all my breakers then turn on only what is needed, a lighting circuit and outlets in the den. Then everything else is planned one at a time or as the the generator is able to carry the load. I am not going to recommend this approach to others as other postings indicate everyone is not competent enough to do this. I don't mean it disparagingly but as an engineer when I throw a switch I see the circuit in my mind (as when driving I see a road map in my mind and some people can't even read a road map).


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## hornetd (Jul 27, 2018)

The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW) is committed to aggressively seeking criminal prosecution of anyone who endangers, injures, or kills utility and contract workers or constructs assemblies which are then used so as to do so,  by generator back-feed.  You are only one mistake away from killing an Outside Wireman.  Write as much and as fast as you like it will not change the fact that your actions are criminally negligent.  I am retired out of the Volunteer Fire Service in my community with 35 years of active service.  I have attended 2 such incidents during that period.  Seeing the small entry point of the deadly current while working hard to keep blood flowing to their brain until the defibrillator is brought into service was not a fun time had by all.  One we saved and one we lost.  You may have noticed that I AM A SORE LOOSER!  I can only hope that you are as lucky as you are arrogant.  

-- 
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you!


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## Eddie_T (Jul 27, 2018)

I do understand however there is little chance that such a mistake could happen. A much greater risk is my driving, after all one could change lanes without checking the mirror or looking to the side first. But to go into the garage and flip a main breaker wouldn't be an accident, one would have to purpose to do so. It's not arrogance, it's just that I can't even imagine such such a thoughtless action.


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## slownsteady (Jul 27, 2018)

Just remember (everyone please!) that the advice you give here is visible to all: Both pro and amateur, contractor and DIY. Once your post is on the forum it is free to travel. Better to err on the side of safety.


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