# Dear Wiring Geniuses



## Kageni (Mar 31, 2016)

Aloha friends 

I have been having a hell of a time trying to figure out how to get these outlets in my house working.  They have been non functional for around 5 years now and it's definitely time someone fixed them.

There are 6 plugs on the same circuit and one smoke detector.  I have sketched their location in the room and halfway and labeled the plugs 1-6 and the alarm as A.  Please see the attached picture of locations and table showing the different voltages read from each plug.

The non working plugs all read a negligible voltage from hot to neutral and approximately 120 volts from neutral to ground.  This makes me think that the neutral wire is shorted out somewhere.  I've checked each socket and changed them out to know avail, no noticeable shorts.  This house was built in Hawaii back in the 70s so theres no GFI sockets and no junction boxes other than the main fuse box.  Most of these wires run through the attic but couldn't find any shorts here either

Not sure where to go from here so any help would be appreciated.


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## nealtw (Mar 31, 2016)

Are there pig tails in the boxes or are the wires just hooked to the screws on the outlets or worse just pocked in the back of the outlet?


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## Kageni (Mar 31, 2016)

Pig tails in the back of the box linking the outlets except for the last box in the circuit (#4).  The outlets are wired in by wrapping wire around the screws.  One thing I noticed is there's no insulation on the grounding wire, I'm not sure if this is standard.


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## Kageni (Mar 31, 2016)

Mahalo no kou kokua.  This is non working outlet #3


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## bud16415 (Mar 31, 2016)

Sounds like your problem is in the common leg white wires. I would start by checking every connection point but where I think you will find the problem is in one of the yellow wire nuts where the white wires are joined. Many people don&#8217;t twist the pairs before using the wire nut and I didn&#8217;t for many years also as that&#8217;s what I was told to do. But now I do and have never had a problem in doing that. It takes a little longer but the connections are much better IMO. I actually grab and clamp all the wires at the tips across the end of the jaw of my vice grip plyers and hold the insulated part of the wires with a duck bill plyers and give them enough twists to tighten them right up. I start by stripping the wires 1/8 longer than needed and after I twist them I snip off the end and then wire nut them. Make sure to twist them CW the same way you will twist on the nut. 

The pros will be along and might tell you this is not needed. I am not a pro and this is just my opinion and how I do it in my own home. 

If you don&#8217;t find the problem in one of the boxes or at the main panel then it sounds like you have an open wire and that will have to be traced down. I find that way less likely though. 

And welcome to the forum.


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## bud16415 (Mar 31, 2016)

Looking at your chart again 4,5,6 have to have a short putting 120 on common wire. If you have 120 on both wires (white and black) they will read zero between them as they are the same potential zero doesn&#8217;t mean they are not both hot just that the potential between then is the same. If all the circuits are on the same breaker as you say it seems as if that breaker should have popped with a short. Could 4,5,6 actually be on a different breaker somehow. When you power the one down do all the readings go to zero.


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## Snoonyb (Mar 31, 2016)

Kageni said:


> Aloha friends
> 
> I have been having a hell of a time trying to figure out how to get these outlets in my house working.  They have been non functional for around 5 years now and it's definitely time someone fixed them.
> 
> ...



A bare grnd. conductor is common. 

Is the devise you are using to measure voltage, just that or is it a Volt-Ohm meter that resistance/continuity can be measured?

In msg.#4, the photo indicates, besides the pigtail to the recep., there are 3 conductors combined in each wire nut.

This makes that box a distribution point where 2 separate paths of travel originate.

And so, the process begins.

Shut the breaker off, remove the recep. and the associated pigtails, as an assembly.

Separate all of the conductors and identify each romex assembly.

Turn the breaker back on and Identify the hot pair by measuring between the black and white, the black and grnd. to ascertain a near 120v reading in both places, between white and grnd. should be "0", and with that done and shutting the breaker off and on with each operation, connect one black and one white conductor from the same romex, check for voltage other places to identify which branch that connection feeds. Repeat with the other romex.


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## JoeD (Mar 31, 2016)

There is no short. The problem is an open neutral. The problem could be in a working device.
As you open each device pull on the white wires and see of one of them falls out of the wire nut. The problem could be in any device on the circuit.

Based on the layout and assuming the went around the room, I would be looking a receptacle 6 or 5 and A. What other devices are on the circuit? The problem could be in a light fixture or switch box or any other junction box.


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## bud16415 (Mar 31, 2016)

JoeD said:


> There is no short. The problem is an open neutral. The problem could be in a working device.
> As you open each device pull on the white wires and see of one of them falls out of the wire nut. The problem could be in any device on the circuit.
> 
> Based on the layout and assuming the went around the room, I would be looking a receptacle 6 or 5 and A. What other devices are on the circuit? The problem could be in a light fixture or switch box or any other junction box.



I see what you are saying but there would have to be a load someplace conducting voltage to the open common wires to make them hot. I guess the smoke alarm could be that source of power. Im assuming nothing is plugged into any of the outlets there could be other branches running to lights of something but the OP didnt mention any lights not working. 

I stick with my first suggestion then making sure all the white wires are tightly connected. Also remove the smoke detector and see if you lose 120 to the commons.


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## JoeD (Mar 31, 2016)

If the hot was shorted to the neutral the breaker would be popping instantly. The only way that would not happen is if the neutral was also open.
The voltage readings indicated have always in my experience been an open neutral.


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## nealtw (Mar 31, 2016)

I would bet that the problem is between A and 5.


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## Kageni (Mar 31, 2016)

Thanks for the response guys!  Quick weird update.

I woke up this morning and was gonna start seeing if I could trace these wires down and see which goes where.  Well I started by taking the voltage of each again, and to my surprise they're different.  All the previously dead sockets are all reading 30 volts across neutral and hot.  The hot to ground is still 120 on all of them but the neutral to ground is now down to <10 volts.

I disconnected the pigtails at outlet #3, which is the one in the picture.  After I did this, I am no longer picking up voltage in outlets 4, 5 and the smoke alarm.  These outlets were the ones that are normally dead, but had a voltage from hot to ground.  They no longer have any hot wires so it seems #3 is my main junction.

After disconnecting the pigtails there is one hot wire which I believe comes from outlet 2 as it still has power.  The voltage across this hot wire to the neutral wire its insulated with is 75 volts.  The voltage across this hot wire to the other two neutral wires is 25 volts each.  This hot wire to ground is still maintained at 120 volts.

My thinking after this is that there's a junction somewhere in the wall between outlets 2 and 3 that has a poor neutral connection.


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## Snoonyb (Mar 31, 2016)

Since #3 is an obvious distribution with 2 obvious separate paths of travel, the problem either originates at #3 or before.


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## nealtw (Mar 31, 2016)

Kageni said:


> Thanks for the response guys!  Quick weird update.
> 
> I woke up this morning and was gonna start seeing if I could trace these wires down and see which goes where.  Well I started by taking the voltage of each again, and to my surprise they're different.  All the previously dead sockets are all reading 30 volts across neutral and hot.  The hot to ground is still 120 on all of them but the neutral to ground is now down to <10 volts.
> 
> ...



You could chase this around for a week, I would undo everything and then find the hot pair and rewire that outlet and then find the next hot pair and so on.


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## Snoonyb (Mar 31, 2016)

Kageni said:


> My thinking after this is that there's a junction somewhere in the wall between outlets 2 and 3 that has a poor neutral connection.



Open #'s 1 & 2 and twist the neutrals in each individually and check for voltage at #3 between the hot and neutral for 120v after each to determine the path of travel, and if you cannot establish 120v at three, then it get to be even more fun.


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## Kageni (Mar 31, 2016)

Just undid #2 and it is the source as it distributes to 1, 3, and 6.  I think I can now confirm that the problem is in the neutral wire between 2 and 3.

I undid both the hot and neutral wire pigtails of #2.  The hotwire with power had 120 volts between the neutral wires going to 1 and 6.  However when I measured it going to the neutral wire of 3, it only had 30 volts.  It seems like if I replaced this section of wire it would solve all my problems.

So what should I do from here? I have an attic above, where it seems most of these wires go.  Is there a way to rewire this without destroying my walls?  It's only drywall and I'm pretty good at patchwork but I'm not sure how involved the process is.

Should I call an electrician?  My only wiring experience is a good amount of DC wiring in cars, never AC until this project.  I understand the concept of AC well just no hands on experience.


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## nealtw (Mar 31, 2016)

Before you break into walls, check the wire for a break inside the insulation. There should be enough slack in the wall to pull a few more inches into the box.
The do a real good inspection of the exposed wire in the attic for damage.


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## Snoonyb (Mar 31, 2016)

Kageni said:


> So what should I do from here? I have an attic above, where it seems most of these wires go.  Is there a way to rewire this without destroying my walls?  It's only drywall and I'm pretty good at patchwork but I'm not sure how involved the process is.



The cure may be in either of the #2 or #3 box and to eliminate these is to attempt to separate the neutral near where it was stripped for joining or just near where it disappears into the sheath.

Tool wise, the following is probably the least expensive.

The romex will be stapled to the stud about 12" above the box and will probably have another near the top on the stud, 5 too 10" below the ceiling, however if the romex travels through a fire block, there may also be a staple above and below the block.

The new romex can be joined to the old and pulled through. 



Kageni said:


> Should I call an electrician?  My only wiring experience is a good amount of DC wiring in cars, never AC until this project.  I understand the concept of AC well just no hands on experience.



Many electricians have long flexible drill bits for just this occasion and can accomplish this without and wall damage.


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## Kageni (Mar 31, 2016)

So I went to the hardware and picked up 10 feet of romex.  I bypassed the old neutral and hot by temporarily wiring this across the room to test it.  Low and behold all my outlets work now!  
It's just a matter of more permanently fixing this problem now.  Ill take your suggestions and pull some slack and check for damage in the attic.


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## nealtw (Mar 31, 2016)

If you do have to change the cable you can cut the wire in the attic figure out from there which side of that is bad, add a junction box and cut the nightmare in half.


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## JoeD (Mar 31, 2016)

Wires don't go bad unless something damages them, like being chewed in the attic by rodent.
If you don't find a chewed wire I'm guessing you find a junction box in the attic or buried where a light fixture used to be in the ceiling.


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## Kageni (Apr 1, 2016)

K so I finally got everything fixed and working perfectly.  Thanks for all your help, you guys were an invaluable resource.  It turns out the room was wired weird and #2 was wired to #6 which was wired to #3.  All of these were wired in series and it turned out #6 was a bad outlet and creating the open neutral.  Frustrating because its the only one I didn't replace but I'm glad I didn't have to tear open my walls!


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## nealtw (Apr 1, 2016)

And that is why I never like them wired in series. Good job.


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