# Structure support?



## bryce (Oct 7, 2012)

Hi Guys, i well into the renovation of the 1947 1.5 story house.

The house is 26'x26' what i found is that there are 3 (2x6) together along the middle of the house about 12' over, there are 3 metal support to the foundations. Is this adequate support? We were planning to support it further by put in the some bolts right through. Do you think i need an extra wall down there?
We are putting in new walls for insulation, hardwood ceilings. The middle of the house along this beam runs the bathroom and staircase up to the attic, so a lot of weight on it. Already there is lots of shifting of the floors but my old carpenter things it is no big deal.


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## AndyGump (Oct 7, 2012)

It seems to me that it must be adequate support to have lasted this long without failing. But I am not sure what you mean by 'lots of shifting of the floors'.
Do you mean the floors are sagging?

Andy.


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## bryce (Oct 7, 2012)

Yes i'm noticing a few issues, there is broken joist in the basement, this is close to the first stair of the staircase that was moved. I think this new staircase is not that old., i put a level there and it is down about 1/4"
My carpenter guy says to put some 2x4" attached there, i think we need more support in the basement. I'm think what is better than footers with concrete would be just a new support wall with 2x4.
We already found no squash box under the stair case pillar. 
The main support, one of the 2x6 are slipping out of place, the metal support pillar does not connect very well to that 3rd beam. There is lack of nail holding the big 3 beams together.
Hard to say what part of the flooring in this house is not crooked, having said that there is no major problems. The west side that has the driveway has tilted down, i think it is because of silting of years of gravel driveways. The other day we put 6" concrete on the outside basement window opening, the basement window on that side are completely rotten, the driveway is too low and pools up with water if rains hard. We are adding a drain pipe along the side there that should help. We also have to raise the door.
Lucky the foundation all seem in good shape beside a couple of holes, i think hydrolic cement i need? 
The main floor slopes toward the center of the house to the base of the staircase with the main support under it. I think i need to put more support under it. I notice the  carpenter and anyone else i ask seem a bit unsure of what to say. Of course they will do it if money is to be made. The guy i working for me is a licensed carpenter but 72 years old (he works cheap.)


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## nealtw (Oct 8, 2012)

The beam should have had 3 nails every 16", If the they are spread a little bolting thru the center would be a good idea. Add a wall for more support will not help unless the is a curb visible to build it on, likely only the posts have a footing. Three 2x6s seem a little small for a beam but if it has not sagged between the posts it is fine. You could jack up the beam to level the floor and add height to the posts. The broken joist should be lifted back up to the right level and laminate a same size piece to the side of it with glue and lots of screws. The peice should be as long as possible and if possible the whole length.


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## bryce (Oct 9, 2012)

Thanks Neal that more or less what the carpenter said.

I'm wonder if the structure can support 3/4 oak on the sloped ceilings?

It's heavy stuff and i was planning to cover the main beams too now i am think it's crazy it will be too heavy??
Actually i was thinking Hickory 6-1/4" dry wall on the inside and  the two side walls.
I wonder how much 5x26' of hickory would be on the roof structure ?


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## nealtw (Oct 9, 2012)

Hickory is more than 3 lbs per sq ft for 3/4"
Ceilings are often 24" on center and require 5/8 drywall so it dosn't sag.
5/8 drywall is 2.4 lbs per sq. ft


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## bryce (Oct 9, 2012)

Good lord with dry wall and this wood it would collapse. Funny how no one wants to tell you this.
I think now, dry wall on the inside and chip board on the slope. Just sand and paint the ceiling as is on the beams, and repair the above floor boards.

You can see how the carpenter is corrupt and just wants the work from and doesn't want to tell me otherwise. He's working for $20/hr and the other guy $15, so i suspect they want to drag jobs out.

What do you think of 3/4" Hickory on the walls vertically? That might be good for the structure.


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## nealtw (Oct 9, 2012)

You have added to the rafters. I would think they are a lot stronger now, perhaps if youy could tie the nee wall to the rafters and the beems the roof structure could carry some of the load. Then you might want the nee wall covered with plywood to make it structural and stiff. Just thinkin??


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## AndyGump (Oct 10, 2012)

How did you come to the conclusion that yours is a 1 and 1/2 story house?

From the pictures it looks like a single story with attic space.

Are you intending to make the attic space into extra living space?

Andy.


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## BridgeMan (Oct 12, 2012)

The next time you're in the basement, put a carpenter's level on that horizontal run of water heater vent pipe.  It could just be photo distortion, but the picture sure looks like the run has downward slope running towards the chimney, instead of upward as required.

Carbon monoxide kills.


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## Wuzzat? (Oct 12, 2012)

BridgeMan said:


> the run has downward slope running towards the chimney, instead of upward as required.
> 
> Carbon monoxide kills.


Good call.  
The photo appears to have been taken from a level slightly above the top surface of the water heater so I don't think it is perspective that is causing that pipe to have a downward sloping appearance.

I'd think a small amount of CO would be trapped in that elbow, depending on whether CO is lighter or heavier than cold air or warm air.

If the blocks under the WH can be removed without bad things happening that might fix the problem.

Short story: 
I notice that the lady from the Shipping Dept. drives into the company parking lot with a very loud car.
I get up and head down to Shipping so I can tell her that if she gets headaches or dizziness or nausea it is because the slight vacuum in her car when it's moving (all vehicles have this) will suck in exhaust gas.
Just as I get down there she is telling someone else that she is having headaches lately and she has no idea where they are coming from.
I forget whether she thanked me for saving the lives of the rest of her brain cells.


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## nealtw (Oct 12, 2012)

Bridgeman: good catch. I think bryce is going to be sorrey he ever uploaded this photo.
While checking the hot water tank, check to see if you have a steel liner in the chimney, it used to be alright to run into the chimney. 
There appears to be a joint in the beam just over from the chimney, can you have a look at that and what is holding the stairs up?


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## bryce (Oct 12, 2012)

Really are you sure? I just had it installed new for $1700. What happen was the first time he came he installed it on the floor, so i called him back because the basement might flood at some time and he raised it.
What i can tell the metal pipe is sloping downward slightly you are right but the top of the pipe enterance is slightly above the highest point of the pipe... Haven't got the co2 installed yet because it's hard wired.


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## inspectorD (Oct 12, 2012)

You also have a problem with that yellow gas line.I would replace it if it was in my home.

Here is the class action suit.  http://www.pddocs.com/csst/

Good luck.


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## bryce (Oct 12, 2012)

What's wrong with the yellow gas line?


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## nealtw (Oct 12, 2012)

He should have taken five more minutes to re-configure the elbows.


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## Wuzzat? (Oct 13, 2012)

nealtw said:


> He should have taken five more minutes to re-configure the elbows.


If removing the blocks is not enough, the remaining choices seem pretty involved.


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## Daryl in Nanoose (Oct 13, 2012)

Isn't that Gas line a little close?


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## bryce (Oct 13, 2012)

I guess it will have to be lowered 1" and put plastic around the base incase of flood. It looks like it the heater needs to be turn clockwise to get a bet angle to the chimney.  
I bought a co alarm and i think it said 226 around the heater. But it is not meant to be tested there, there is no co in the house only in the basement which i need only for laundry. I assume most hot water heater have some co around them?
I am wishing i bought the on demand heater now....


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## bryce (Oct 13, 2012)

Here's some more pic's. I just had a falling out with the old carpenter so i've got new guys coming in on Monday. These local carpenters are really a pain, he wanted $20 a hour but worked so slow, those 3 windows took a full day to install, $160. I think a good carpenter could do it in half the time say at $30 a hour.
 Your right Neil that stair case is completely falling down and will be fixed as soon as we can raise the door 6'.
I agree that the water gas line is a bit strange and i will as him to bring it down. The gas pipe on the other side will be capped since it was for the stove. 
I included the broken joist photo don't worry it is not near the gas. You can see the slipped main support that i want to jack up and bolt, because you can get a nail through it will hit the duct work.


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## BridgeMan (Oct 13, 2012)

bryce,

The last photo in Post 13 shows the galvanized water heater vent run touching the vertical copper water line directly behind it.  Not good, as 2 dissimilar metals will galvanically react with each other, and eventually cause perforations (holes) to develop in the more chemically active member.    

By adjusting the flexible vent pipe elbows (first loosening the sheet metal screws locking the sections together) and rotating the assembly downward and forward at the top of the heater, you'd both create a gap between the 2 different metals and make the run over to the chimney have a more positive (upward) flow.

Your plumber has no business trying to be a plumber.  Where I come from his work quality is known as "cowboy plumbing."  I would report him to your AHJ that grants professional licenses for the building trades.  Along with asking for a partial refund of that exorbitant sum he charged you.  You did say he was a plumber, and not a robber baron, right?


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## bryce (Oct 13, 2012)

good catch, i just checked and there is only 1/8" at the closed point between the vent and the copper hot water pipe. I think rotating the heater should do the trick.
Do really think the yellow line is a problem? I doubt he will want to change that. I notice other people charging 2200$ for the same instaltion not to mention the water heater company that was previously chargin $30 per month.So 1700$ seems okay.
Like i said the previous installation was 1-2" lower. Don't you think shark bites and pex tube should solve the problem? We already replacing some plumbing this way.


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## inspectorD (Oct 13, 2012)

inspectorD said:


> You also have a problem with that yellow gas line.I would replace it if it was in my home.
> 
> Here is the class action suit.  http://www.pddocs.com/csst/
> 
> Good luck.



You need to read the link. Those csst gas lines are prone to failure if there is a lighning strick nearby. there is no bonding sleeve on that line and it creates small holes, then leaks. There have been a few in my area that have been replaced with one called http://www.tracpipe.com/CSST_Gas_Pipe_Products/CounterStrike_CSST/

This is what should have been installed, but it's your call if your not concerned. I'm just letting you know there are issues with the old yellow csst line.
Good luck.:2cents:


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## Wuzzat? (Oct 14, 2012)

How do you break a joist like that?


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## bryce (Oct 14, 2012)

Above it is the foot of the stair case that was moved at sometime. I guess fatso did it. Having said that i don't think it is going anywhere anytime soon, but it is on the list of fix jobs.

btw, it seems that the yellow pipe is code and sold by HD around here.
http://www.askthebuilder.com/flexible-gas-lines-are-you-serious/


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## BridgeMan (Oct 14, 2012)

bryce said:


> . . . . I guess fatso did it. . . .




Who's "fatso"? . . . . . . . .  Your wife?


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## bryce (Oct 14, 2012)

ha ha, no the previous owner...
So how serious do think these issues are?
How long would it take for the copper pipe and vent to corrode like this?
  i think i need to call a someone more professional to check everything tomorrow.
It's a 40 gal bradford white, i probably only needed a 20 gallon. I think i only really need that hot water for 1 shower per day. I wonder if there is an external switch that i could install and just turn it on 1/2 hour before a shower?  Anyway to make it a 20 gal system?
Hey look it has the defender system, means i'm okay right?
http://www.bradfordwhite.com/DEFENDER.ASP

Okay i put a level on it, if i measure from the highest point of the vent entering the chimney there is a bit of a slope so i guess it is okay. I left jim a message explaining about the vent, well he is not calling me back and i think giving me the dodge. I guess it is not surprising since he already had to install it twice. You know people all laugh at me when i say i heard it on the internet around here..
$1700 was a burn for the water heater, but i think it is a good model. $2000 for the goodman furnace was definitely a good deal. Problem i have is when people realize i am from the city they all try to ripe me off. This has become a pattern.


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## bryce (Oct 14, 2012)

So this definitely a problem?
The photo is misleading, only at the bottom is it really close 1/4" . You can see the slight incline.
Would shark bites and pex solve it? I was reading that flex hose was a no no again for this.


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## Wuzzat? (Oct 14, 2012)

A sandwich of two one-bys with through bolts should probably repair this joist, and joist height is more important than joist thickness.

If you stand on another joist far away from the broken one and measure the deflection due to your body weight you can measure how strong your repair is relative to an undamaged joist.


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## inspectorD (Oct 14, 2012)

bryce said:


> btw, it seems that the yellow pipe is code and sold by HD around here.
> http://www.askthebuilder.com/flexible-gas-lines-are-you-serious/



The link you sent has an additionional comment by the author in 2005 talking about the issues I explained. 
Some areas have banned the yellow csst, others are just slow at catching up.


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## bryce (Oct 14, 2012)

It's not a big deal really, probably doesn't need much put some PL in there and jack it up with a 2x4. Sistering would be a bonus.

So, about these dissimilar metals can i just put something between them? Plastic?


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## bryce (Oct 14, 2012)

"The link you sent has an "comment by the author in 2005 talking about the issues I explained.
Some areas have banned the yellow csst, others are just slow at catching up. "
Yes i'm little concerned but we are long way from texas, lightning is not that common. It seems to be code around here, so even if i call a licensed guy he will say it is not necessary.


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## AndyGump (Oct 15, 2012)

Forgive me for saying but I think your plumber is a hack. 
He should have done a professional job for that price.
The gas pipe should be against the wall well secured,
It should have been on a platform at least 18" high to begin with.
It looks like the piping is 1/2", is that right?
He can still make the vent pipe angle up a bit more,
He didn't even take the freaking tag off the vent pipe.

The W/H isn't even secured to anything, you may not be in a seismic zone of any relevance but still...

Andy.


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## BridgeMan (Oct 15, 2012)

bryce said:


> So, about these dissimilar metals can i just put something between them?
> 
> Plastic?



If you put plastic against the vent pipe where it exits the W.H., make sure your homeowners fire insurance policy is paid up and current.  Shouldn't take too long to burn the place down.  Hopefully, not while you're upstairs, sleeping soundly.

Best thing to put between the two metals is an air gap.  Wider the better.  What shows in the picture appears to be touching, at one of the raised joint elbow adjustment rings.

As others have so eloquently said--your plumber is a (definite) hack.


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## bryce (Oct 15, 2012)

Others have said eloquently that those on the internet are often full of %^$$.
 I had a certified guy in today from a big company who cut the stove pipe. He checked the furnace and hot water: perfectly fine and up to code. And yes my home insurance is up to date.

I might mention you where all completely wrong about the structure window. You all thought is was so bad and it was nothing wrong with it too.


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